EP 55: Jars of Clay Pt 1 (Ft. Jackie Hill Perry)

Summary

In Totality with Megan Ashley – Episode 55: Jars of Clay Pt 1 (Ft. Jackie Hill Perry)

Release Date: November 19, 2024

In this compelling episode of "In Totality with Megan Ashley," host Megan Ashley welcomes former Jars of Clay member and renowned speaker Jackie Hill Perry for a deep and honest conversation about faith, friendship, and navigating the challenges of living a life wholly devoted to God. This first part of their discussion delves into Jackie’s personal struggles, the pressures of ministry, and the complexities of maintaining authentic relationships amidst public scrutiny.

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1. Introducing Jackie Hill Perry

Megan Ashley opens the episode by reintroducing her close friend and guest, Jackie Hill Perry, highlighting the authenticity and transparency that define their friendship. Jackie brings her unique perspective as someone who has visibly wrestled with her faith and past, offering listeners a relatable and insightful dialogue.

2. Personal Struggles and Spiritual Challenges

Jackie Hill Perry candidly shares her internal battles with indifference and hardened emotions, reflecting on the delicate balance between maintaining a soft heart and not being overly affected by others' opinions.

"I feel challenged because I can be... indifferent and hard in my heart towards stuff where I can be like, I don't care."
— Jackie Hill Perry [01:29]

She emphasizes the inevitability of facing persecution and slander as a follower of Christ, drawing on biblical examples to contextualize her experiences.

"You will be persecuted, you will be slandered, you will be lied on."
— Jackie Hill Perry [02:18]

3. Combating Burnout in Ministry

The conversation shifts to the emotional and spiritual exhaustion Jackie feels from her extensive ministry work. She admits to feeling drained and recognizes the necessity of taking a step back to restore her relationship with God.

"I do feel empty... my relationship with the Lord is... because I've been so drained doing ministry."
— Jackie Hill Perry [10:31]

This honesty serves as a powerful reminder of the importance of self-care and spiritual nourishment, even for those deeply invested in ministry.

4. Navigating Friendship and Authenticity

Megan and Jackie explore the dynamics of their friendship, especially under the lens of public scrutiny. Jackie reflects on how their intentional and honest relationship has been vital in withstanding external pressures and misunderstandings.

"When you spend a lot of time with people, that expedites the intimacy."
— Jackie Hill Perry [25:35]

They discuss the skepticism their friendship has faced, particularly due to Jackie’s past and Megan’s public persona, and how they have worked to maintain authenticity amidst judgment.

5. Facing Public Slander and Maintaining Integrity

Jackie opens up about the challenges of being publicly slandered and the emotional toll it takes on her and her family. She addresses the misconceptions people have about her ability to maintain platonic friendships given her history.

"All of this is because we're honest."
— Jackie Hill Perry [33:32]

Jackie stresses the importance of integrity and how false assumptions undermine her genuine efforts to live out her faith authentically.

6. Balancing a Soft Heart with Resilience

One of the core topics is Jackie’s struggle to keep her heart tender without being weighed down by negativity. She shares her late-night research into negative comments about herself as an example of this internal conflict.

"What's the balance between not hardening your heart and also not giving too much energy and attention to what people think about you?"
— Jackie Hill Perry [44:00]

Drawing from Scripture, Jackie explains how embracing Christ’s example of enduring suffering with grace helps her maintain this balance.

"I think in this season I've had to really lean into that. This is what it means to be a Christian... You will be persecuted, you will be slandered, you will be lied on and rejoice. Like, this is what it means to share in Christ's sufferings."
— Jackie Hill Perry [45:13]

7. Emulating Christ Amid Trials

Jackie connects her personal trials to the example of Christ, finding strength in His model of responding to persecution with love and patience rather than vengeance.

"When we're enduring slander and humiliation, it gives you a different respect and reverence for Christ."
— Jackie Hill Perry [48:54]

This emulation serves as both a comfort and a guiding principle for Jackie as she navigates public challenges.

8. Closing Remarks and Looking Ahead to Part 2

As the episode draws to a close, Megan and Jackie express gratitude for their support systems and tease the continuation of their conversation in Part 2. They hint at further discussions on the events leading up to and following the Acts 242 Conference, promising listeners more insights and reflections.

"Next week, Jackie and I will continue our conversation for part two of all the things before, during, and after Acts 242."
— Megan Ashley [49:17]

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Notable Quotes:

• "We have the treasure and jars of clay to show that the surpassing power belongs to God, not to us."
  — Jackie Hill Perry [05:30]

• "I have a mouth. I have to guard my child from videos of people slandering her mother."
  — Jackie Hill Perry [20:37]

• "All of this is because we're honest."
  — Jackie Hill Perry [33:46]

---

Conclusion

Episode 55 of "In Totality" offers a raw and honest exploration of Jackie Hill Perry’s journey through faith, friendship, and personal trials. Her vulnerability in discussing burnout, public slander, and the quest for a balanced spiritual life provides listeners with both empathy and inspiration. As Megan and Jackie prepare to delve deeper in the upcoming part, listeners are left with a profound understanding of the complexities involved in living a life devoted to God amidst real-world challenges.

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Stay Tuned for Part 2: Don't miss the continuation of this heartfelt conversation as Megan and Jackie further unravel the events and lessons from the Acts 242 Conference. Subscribe to "In Totality" on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your preferred platform to stay updated.

Transcript

[Megan Ashley]

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[Jackie Hill Perry]

I feel challenged because I can be. I can become very indifferent and hard in my heart towards stuff where I can be like, I don't care. Where is the balance in that? Because for me, sometimes I can, because I'm an extremist. So I can struggle with, like, how do I keep a soft heart but then also not care about what people say?

I think in this season I've had to really lean into that. This is what it means to be a Christian. When you look at anybody in the Bible who is faithful, this is typical. Like, woe to you when all men speak well of you, for so even your ancestors did the false prophets. And so to me, I've had to lean into, like, oh, no, this is just. This is Christianity.

Yeah.

Like, this is. This is what that is, is. You will be persecuted, you will be slandered, you will be lied on.

[Megan Ashley]

Hey, you guys. Welcome to In Totality, a place where we celebrate authenticity and openness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We're here for those who are willing.

[Megan Ashley]

To explore, those who embrace imperfections, and.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

For those with open hearts and minds. I'm excited to Embark on this journey with you. And while I can't predict every twist and turn, I'm certain that God will be by our side with every step of obedience.

[Megan Ashley]

Welcome to In Totality with me, your host, Megan Ashley. What's up, you guys?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Welcome back to another episode of Intolity. I am your host, Megan Ashley. I'm so grateful that you have come back to be with me and to have another conversation. Make sure you hit the subscribe button right now. And make sure you turn your notifications on so you don't miss anything that's happening with In Totality. I'm really excited today because. Because I brought my friend back, Jackie Hill Perry.

You need to put a word before the friend. Come on now.

I brought my best friend back, Jackie Hill Perry.

Okay, let's be clear.

Let's be clear. Yeah.

All right.

I can't. I can't say that. I've been getting on you way too much.

Yeah, you do. Hi, best friend. How are you?

Hi, best friend. How are you? Jackie. I'm just saying, you could have got some sweat bands.

I really like these jeans, though.

I know you do. They look good.

If I stood up, it would be fantastic.

But you're not sitting up and you knew that.

I know, I.

[Megan Ashley]

This.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What's crazy is it's so funny to me that you are the reason why we have this couch.

What do you mean? I feel like we discussed this already.

No, I know, but I'm just saying. Even still.

Yeah.

Like, that was months ago. I could have went back to the chairs and I did it.

The chair. The chairs took. It was. It wasn't as cozy, you know, when you.

I think it was prophetic.

What are you talking.

When I think about it, cuz you.

Was doing the chairs. It was like it was giving, you know? Diane Sawyer, you know.

What is this giving?

This is giving, like conversation. Like you had people crying. You had. Phil wouldn't.

It's like I got.

If you had them chairs, he wouldn't have been crying like that. You gotta think about that.

Bill cries all the time.

He does, but I don't think he would have cried in the same way if you had.

It was great.

How you doing, ma'am?

I'm good.

You got the little pressing girl.

Leave me alone.

Anyway, I'm tired, man.

I know.

We're.

We're exhausted. I feel like after we did ask, I felt like I don't have anything else to say.

For sure.

I'm tired.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm drained.

[Unknown]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

How do you feel?

I am tired. I Want to crawl into a hole and do nothing. I am con. I don't want to make Thanksgiving food. I'm gonna get it catered. I've been. I've been in my bed all day.

Yeah.

I don't got nothing prophetic to say.

I know.

Nothing helpful to say.

Well, I don't know about that. You always have stuff that's helpful to say. Say, even when. Even when you feel like you don't.

You all.

No, you do.

Even today. I don't. I don't. I really. I was in the Uber on the way here because I ain't got no car. I was just like, lord, if you want to say something, you going to have to say it because I don't know what I'm saying. That's actually good.

No, I think. I think goodness is just in you because you have the Holy Spirit in you.

I appreciate that.

You do.

Yeah. We have the treasure and jars of clay to show that the surpassing power belongs to God, not to us.

See, you did.

So how you feel? I mean.

Yeah, don't start.

Don't.

[Megan Ashley]

Because I feel like you looking for.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You looking around, looking for something to make fun of me about.

No, it wasn't going to be about.

I was going to say, like, you cut your hair. Can we just get. Have a moment?

That's true.

[Megan Ashley]

For the hair.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's true.

How do you feel?

Free.

Okay.

Delivered.

Have y'all ever. If y'all have never seen Jackie try to take off a hoodie, it is devastating to watch.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's eventual.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because, I mean, if you got locks, it's a lot of pride wrapped up in, you know, the length of your locks, because it communicates how long you had them. But it just was messing with my quality of life, you know, you couldn't see the graphic tee. You know, I got gravity. Nobody knows what's on it. You know what I'm saying? I. I can't take baths because it get caught up and then my neck is breaking and things like that.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know, my. It's just a lot.

Yeah, but they look good.

I chopped them in half, and I don't care about it. I feel free. I really do. I feel free.

You look good.

Thank you.

So I feel like this year, I think it might come across as, like, acts was such a thing that drained and exhausted us, and it did. I feel like this whole year has been a lot. I know for me personally, it feels like this year has been like 10 years. But even when I think about all the stuff that you've done. You've done a lot this year. So I think a lot of the exhaustion isn't even just from Acts 2.

That's true.

But how do you feel about this year in general as we are kind of coming to a close of 2024?

Yeah. I mean, I think the year started with. The year started low key, kind of slow, which is crazy. Like, it started, like, with me, like, chilling, you know what I'm saying? And then I think I released the Ephesians Bible Study, which was cool. Then me and Preston went on the podcast tour. Then I did the signing with Reach. Then I started on the album or the ep. Then we started with acts, and then it just kind of became like a thing. So it was a big year. But I actually like bigness. So that's a part of the problem is I like doing a lot. Yeah. I like that I don't like doing nothing. But nothing is good too, because nothing is something. And so I think next year is me. I'm going to start exploring what it looks like to be calm.

Yeah. Do you think that's going to be hard for you?

Yeah.

Why?

I don't know. I can't think. I don't know. Because, I mean, I think some of it is how I was raised. I was raised with a mother who finds value in work. She, you know, if I was sitting down doing nothing, she. You know what I'm saying? Like, she would kind of talk about people who were lazy.

Yeah.

And so I think for me, I. I have a problem with feeling. I can't think, like, feeling like I'm. I'm being inefficient if I'm not doing something or if I'm not accomplishing something. So, like, me accomplishing things makes me feel important.

Yeah.

So that's the thing.

Have you ever had a season where you did nothing pandemic, but even at that, you were.

I wasn't doing anything. I was painting walls and steps.

But you also pregnant, so, I mean, there's only so much you could have did.

Yeah. Like, I was cleaning and, like painting shoes and like, I was. That was the most worthless I felt. Yet at the same time, I felt very content in a way, because it was like nobody was doing anything, and so I wasn't. It was like, hey, it is what it is. Like, my uterus hurts. What am I supposed to do? My bladder is full. I'm being on myself when I sneeze. Like, what am I supposed to do? What were you doing during the pandemic? You was Homeschooling.

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. That was the worst time of my life.

Yeah. You talk about that.

Yeah. It was literally awful.

Yeah, it was terrible.

But. But there was. There was a sense of, like you said, contentment in just knowing. And maybe it's because everybody else wasn't doing anything either. Yeah. I think if I was stuck and everybody else was moving around, I don't know if I would have been as content for sure. But in this season. No, everyone still might be doing stuff. And you're gonna be sitting still to a certain degree. I mean, I, I. You're gonna find something to do.

Yeah. I'm not gonna. Like, nothing. A book.

Yeah.

I'm not gonna not do nothing. It's gonna be a season, but I'm. I'm gonna. I don't know. We can move on. I don't know.

Well, I'm excited to see what you do.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm gonna sit down for a second to get my life and my mental health and my spiritual condition in order, because I do think I have poured out. I've poured out in a way that I feel empty. I do feel empty. And so I don't think it is healthy for me to keep going without sitting still for a season.

Well, I just think that it's. I think, one. That it's encouraging to hear that, because where we live, especially in Atlanta, in our culture, busyness is a thing. It's like, grind it out. Sleep when you dead. Keep going. You know, Especially when you're. You're at a certain. When you have a certain momentum. You know what I'm saying? With all the things that you've had going on this year, you've had a lot of success. And so I think most people would be like, yo, capitalize on that. Keep going. Keep going. And I think it's just wise. And I think it's. I think it's needed to hear people like you.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

With your success and the position that you hold to tell people that it's actually okay. That even when you're at a peak, that you don't have to, like, capitalize off of that.

Yeah. I think the problem is, is, is if you attach success to success in the sense of, like, money or status or the increase in influence. I don't. Right. To me, it's. If my soul is not succeeding, if my family is not succeeding, if my maturity is not succeeding, then I am not actually successful. And so, to me, I can't even give anybody anything if I'm not okay. And so, to me, Even in Luke, where it talks about when the report of him grew, he would. Would withdraw. Like, I have to withdraw so that I can actually. Actually be successful. And so I have to leave so that I can help people. So that's why I'm going to get off social media, cuz I. I have to go away.

Yeah.

And I'm tired of people talking about.

Me, so it's been a lot of that this year.

It's been a lot. Time to go.

Yeah.

Y'all get on my.

[Megan Ashley]

I feel.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I feel like I'm so grateful. Well, just for you in general, like, you've really been such a solid friend for me this. This year and. But I kind of get to get to grow at a. Like, mature in a. In a expedited way because I get to watch kind of the lessons that I'm learning from you, and it's like, yeah. Like I'm about to disappear for a minute. I need to take a break.

Yeah, you do.

You know what I'm saying? Like, I don't. I'm just thankful that I have people in my life that are like, no, yeah, go rest. Like, that aren't trying to. No. Like, keep pumping out this content.

Keep.

Keep going. Keep. You know, and it's like, nah, rest. It's okay to rest. It's okay to take a break. It's okay to, like, you know, allow the Lord to pour into you. Because I feel like in my position, a lot of people would keep going.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Especially, I mean, you have a very successful platform, a very successful podcast. You know what I'm saying? You're a single mom, all the stuff. But again, like, I think people, their focus is off. It's like, at the end of the day, if the Lord is the one who provides, if the Lord is the one who gives manna, if the Lord is the one who is Jehovah Jireh. I don't think the Lord has made us slaves to a system. I think the Lord cares about our bodies and our minds and our hearts and our souls. Like, he created the Sabbath for a reason.

Yeah.

Like he did. He wants us to be whole beings. And so, like, forget all that. Like, if we have to leave and the algorithm somehow stops working in our favor and the subscribers go down and the followers go down and the. You know what I'm saying? The downloads suffer. So what? So what? Like, I. I just. I really don't care.

Yeah.

I don't care.

And it's crazy because I think I feel very. I think there was a point in time. When I first started this podcast a year ago where I was anxious so much about doing things on my own because I had never done that before.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Jackie Hill Perry]

Never raised kids on my own. I've never had to provide for myself on my own. I've never had to pay bills on my own. Like, I've. There's so much that I've never done by myself. And so I think it created a lot of anxiety of like, oh, my gosh, what am I going to do? Like, I have to figure out all the ways to get all these streams of income.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And where I'm at right now, the Lord has been kind and faithful. And he has.

Yes, he has.

And he's.

Yes, he has. Do you see it? Do y'all see it? Go ahead.

He's provided a lot of things and. But I really don't. I'm okay. Like, I do not feel. And I'm saying this today, now, I don't know when I get back and the subscribers are gone and it's hard. I don't know how I will feel then. But I do feel like, you know, the Lord has sustained me and I'm okay with, like, I don't want to. I don't want to get so caught up in grinding it out and doing all this stuff. And then my relationship with the Lord is, like, lacking or my intimacy with him is lacking because I've been so drained doing ministry.

Because I also think, I think what's threatened. I feel like I'm saying this without saying it. What's threatened when we move into the hustle mentality is sin. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you move into this, I have to do this. I have to keep going, even if my soul isn't. Okay. Is that you start to move in the flesh, and you start to move independent of faith. And so you start to move in the arena of. Now you're moving outside of his will. Now you're moving independent of faith, and that's when you actually start moving away from his hand. And I don't want to move away from his hand because it's like, the blessing on your podcast is because you're. You're moving with his hand on him.

Correct.

You get him, like, the. I. Yeah. I don't know how to say. What I'm saying is, like, I don't. I don't want to do nothing that his hand ain't on. Correct.

So that actually scares me, because that's not success. And that's the thing. I think people think that the success is the subscribers and the. In the money. Like, and that's not. The success is being able to keep his hand on it.

Yeah. Moses is like, yeah, I don't even want to go if you ain't with us, that part. But you got Israel. Like, when they, like, nah, let's try to go. And then when they try to go without them, they, like, die. Or they didn't die, but they, like, lost. Yeah. Y'all know what I'm talking about. And it's like, I don't want to do that.

I don't want to do it.

I don't. I'll pass. Yeah, I'm okay.

So I think I kind of want to take. I mean, people know kind of how we. How we connected and how we, you know, developed our friendship, but I feel like our friendship has been a conversation.

My God, A lot.

Yeah, it has this year with several people, and there's been tons of people that have been so supportive, which I'm super grateful for.

Thanks, guys.

And then. And then there's been a lot of. A lot of criticism with our friendship. But one thing that I appreciate is that you. You really led with. And I'm glad that you led it with this. Like, you led with us having a strong foundation before we were really public. Public with our friendship. Like, it was very intentional, but kind of talk me through, like, what that was like for you and why that was so important that we develop that, because I don't think we Talked about this last time in detail. Maybe we did a little bit, but.

I think it was more from. For me, in a sense, because he.

Was like, I don't know her.

Yeah, I think it was. I think it was for my own security.

Yeah.

Just because I'm in this. This place where I just don't trust people. I'm. I think we talked about this the other day. Like, I think when I. It was a. It was a blow for me when I realized that a lot of people deal with me as a brand and not a person. And that was weird when I realized that. I remember Dr. Sarita was the first person to tell me that. She was like, you think people are dealing with you as Jackie? She was like, but people are actually dealing with you as Jackie Hill Perry. And you gotta realize that. And when I. When I thought that, I was like, dang, like, I'm just having conversations. I'm giving my number out, and I'm just engaging with people as me, and they're engaging with me as an opportunity. And so knowing that you come from the industry, I didn't know how. I just didn't know how authentic you were or how sincere you were. And so, to me, I wanted there to be time for us to see how. How real that was. So, yeah, that's just kind of what it. What it was for me.

Yeah. I think I was. I think I was looking more so at it, like, oh, okay. Like, you know, discipleship. I think that was primarily the thing that I was looking for at first. And I think that I realized. And we'll talk about this. As we were going through Acts and all the warfare started, I realized at how maybe fearful I was of having friendship in that.

Mean, the book or the. Are you talking about the conference?

The conference. The warfare with the conference. He was reading, and it was fine. We was reading Acts. It was fine. But when we tried to do Acts, another thing. But I think I realized that, yeah, like, how guarded and fearful I might have been to have friendship again. Which made me appreciative of just the time that we actually got to know each other, like, doing, like, you know, going on trips and just talking and going coffee shops and. You know what I'm saying? Just building that solid, solid friendship. Because I think people assume that we just popped out and was like, oh, yeah, it's my best friend.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, it was like, no, we took time because.

So I don't think people know this. So what happened was, you know, we met a flower child. We talked for some hours. All the stuff. And then we kind of started building. And then I prayed and asked you if you wanted to start coming with me on ministry trips, because I was like, I think it will be helpful for you to travel with me and just see how I. How I move. And so. But it just so happened that a lot of the ministry trips I had was us landing in a city and driving for hours.

Yes.

So it wasn't like a Dallas. It was like a. I don't know, some Timbuktu town, Virginia somewhere.

Yeah.

So we would drive for hours, meaning we had time to talk. And so there's all this investment and all this time, you know what I'm saying? And it's like her plan. What's that group you like? What's the group?

Snarky Puppy.

Nah. That weird white group that she was listening to. Paramore. Yeah. It's like, I'm learning that this girl is, like, interesting. So that's. I think when you spend a lot of time with people, that expedites the intimacy.

Correct.

And so that's what a lot of it was. You know what I'm saying? So I think. I honestly think that the Lord knew that he wanted act conference to happen, and so there's a level of intimacy that had to develop for even this conference to happen. Correct.

That's what I was gonna say. I was like, if we did not develop that type of friendship, like a solid foundation, we would have been destroyed for sure because of what we were.

You had to explain that. Because my brain can't even. Yeah, no, yeah.

I just think that. I think. And we'll get. We'll get into it. Because I kind of. I do want to start from the beginning of how we started, like, how acts even kind of came about and all the things. But if the type of warfare that we experience personally, just between the two of us, forget the external stuff, but just in between the two of us, nobody. I don't think people would have made it for sure if we did not have, like, a full understanding of what our friendship was. And I think we developed that over time before people, you know? But why do you think that people. Be careful how you say this. Because. Don't.

Thank you for the warning. You know, I'm halfway there.

Why. Why do you think that there is such a. A skepticism when it comes to friendships like ours? Oh, Jesus.

I mean, let me sit. I don't want to be comfortable. You know how the position of your body can help your words. You said skepticism.

Yeah. I think that there. Because Again, I think that there has been a lot of support, which I appreciate, but then there has been a lot of. And it. And I understand that our personal stories play an effect in that, but I just think overall, in general, what do you think that that is where people have such a. You know what I mean?

[Megan Ashley]

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[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, take your time now.

So I told you a long time ago, I said I felt like, okay, I don't know if I should share this. Yeah, I won't share that part. But I, I, I knew that an element of warfare, particularly on our friendship, would be the pup up, like, public attack. And so I was anticipating that there would be some stuff. I didn't know how it would manifest. I think some of it is, I think people automatically just have. I don't know how to say it. I just think people are weird when it comes to friendship, period. And so I think they just got stuff. I think, I think when it comes to my story, I think my story plays a big part in it. I think I've been very highly transparent about me being an ex lesbian, about me having struggles about all of that. And so I think it becomes easy for people to say, how can she, as a ex lesbian be, you know, have a platonic, safe friendship? I think if you were ugly, this would not be an issue, but if you did not look like you, this would not be a thing. You know what I'm saying? And so it's because the assault assumption is because Jackie comes from where she comes from, she must be tempted. She must be struggling. This has to be an issue. And so there's this assumption that because of my history, there must, like, there can't possibly be. And so there's all these, like, it's just projection. Correct. And so it's all of that. Correct. I think. Because you also had a public friendship.

Correct. That's what I was saying. There is stuff on my side, too.

Right.

Where people are like, megan shouldn't be friends with Jackie because Megan.

Exactly. Megan was a this, and Megan. Da, da, da. Megan is like, you had a public friendship with a public figure.

Yeah.

And so maybe she's manipulative. Maybe she's using her. Maybe she's. So I think it's all of that coming together. So it just feels easy.

Yeah, it feels.

[Megan Ashley]

But what I. What I do appreciate, though, is that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We were both very transparent about the possibilities of.

But the problem. I think the thing that irritates me is all of this is because we're honest.

Correct.

You get what I'm saying? Like, all of this is because we're honest. If we weren't honest, y'all wouldn't have nothing to say.

Yeah.

And so that's what's frustrating is I think the temptation is. Oh, like, if we just stop being honest with y'all, y'all wouldn't have nothing to say.

Yeah. But I think that. And I think the attack is to shut people up.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's like. I'm like, the attack is like, oh, we'll just keep accusing and condemning and accusing and condemning, and eventually they won't be friends anymore.

Correct.

Eventually Megan will shut the age up.

Correct.

Eventually Jackie will go like.

Correct.

[Megan Ashley]

You know what I mean?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think that. That. And I'm like, I just feel like that's so evil.

Yeah.

And it's hurtful. And I don't think it's unfair. And I don't think people realize that. Like, we can be strong.

Yeah.

And, you know, we can have. We can have strong convictions. Like, I think people realize that, like, the way we show up is out of our own strength. No. Like, this is out of obedience to the Lord. This doesn't always. I don't always show up feeling strong. And I don't think people realize how incredibly discouraging and hurtful that they can be with how loose they are with their fingers and how loose they are with their. With their little Ted talks on. On YouTube and their think pieces about something that you didn't pray or seek the Lord about.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You just have an opinion.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I mean? And I just think it's dangerous.

Yeah. And I. I expressed this to Preston and to you. I don't even think people realize how discouraging it is for people who come from where I come from. Right. So there are so many women who come from the gay lifestyle who feel as if they can only be friends with men. So what they see. They see what y'all gotta say, and they feel like, oh, I actually can't enter into platonic, same sex, holy intimacy with a woman out of the fear of being slandered.

Yeah.

Out of the fear of being talked about. Out of the like. And so I feel this need to actually show, like. No, it actually is possible.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? To have holy intimacy. Holy intimacy with a woman. We. I am a woman.

Yeah.

You know, like, I am a woman. You know?

And they just don't get it. I don't understand.

[Megan Ashley]

And. And I think the thing. That's crazy.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, you got something else.

Go ahead. Okay.

It is. And I think. I think what.

I have a husband and four children.

Yep. 10 years married. Go ahead. I think what's frustrating.

Going through things.

I think what's frustrated. Frustrating. And what was frustrating the entire time or what's in general, is that people. And I get it. I'm just expressing my frustrations. I think that people don't see it is presumed that we are not really who we say we are. That's what it is. Like, it's an insult. It's like you're telling me I'm. I'm actually not who I say I am.

Yes.

Because what y'all don't see is. Is when we get up and pray. Yeah. When we're sitting on my front porch actually reading the Bible when we had no plans on it. It just is in us to do. You know what I'm saying? We didn't.

[Megan Ashley]

You didn't come over my house to.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Do a Bible study. You came over my house to kick it, and we ended up going through a whole Bible study on my front. Like, but that's what we do all the time. We're always in conversations about things. Now is every single conversation about things. No, we're humans. We're. We talk.

[Megan Ashley]

We have girl talk.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We talk about all types of things. But the frustrating thing is that it's like. It's like an insult to my integrity and. Insult to integrity because it makes you.

Feel like, oh, you think I'm lying?

Yes. I think that's the thing that is also very frustrating me. One, two. It's. It makes. It gives people who are not in the faith or maybe want to be in the faith or have an interest to be in faith, like you said, for women who are, or for people in general who are just in same Sex, attraction, relationships or whatever. It makes it feel like nobody can be redeemed. You can never be redeemed. You can never be redeemed. You can never not be, like, even with me, like, with my past situation with an old friendship, it's like, oh, you can never have another friend again.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You don't deserve another friend again.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

For sure.

Your silence makes. Because you've been silent this whole time. That must mean what they're saying is true. So we should. You should never have another friend again. Forget looking at the fruit. We're just going to bind you to. To our opinions about you and not look at the fruit of anything. That's the frustrating thing about people's opinions. And mostly it comes from people who say that they know the Lord. And that's another frustrating thing to me.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think some of this is. I feel like this is one of the first years that it's been hard to have influence.

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

This has been a. This has been an interesting year for me where it's been like. I don't know if I. I've never wanted it, but this has been the first year that I wanted to give it up.

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, I've never wanted it, but this has been the first year where I'm like, I really don't.

Yeah. Yeah, I can have it.

I don't want it. Like, I don't want it. Like, I'm cool because it just. It. Yeah. Like, even. It was probably a month ago, eden was on YouTube and she was about to click on a video of me. I feel emotional. She was about to click on a. I don't want to talk about it. She was about to click on a video of me that she thought. She thought I was teaching, but it was like somebody talking about me.

Yeah.

And she was like, no, I just wanna. I wanted to hear you teach. And I'm like, don't click on that or whatever. She was like, no, I just want to hear what you have to say. And I was like, do not watch YouTube without talking to me.

Yeah.

And I'm like, I have to guard my child from videos of people slandering her mother.

Yeah.

And that's not. That's just such a unique situation.

Yeah.

You know what I'm saying? I was like, I don't even think the average person understand what that's like.

No. And I think that they believe that it's your, like, well, you put yourself in that position.

Yeah. And it's like, no, I just. I just got saved.

Literally that's it.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I just got.

I just wanted to be obedient.

I just wanted to be a Christian.

Yeah. I don't think people realize that. That. That is extremely.

Did this head spray not work?

It's just. I mean, you were pressing pretty hard.

I use the freezing stuff you gave me.

There's no. It's not.

I press too hard.

No, it's good. You're not good.

All right, good.

Yeah, I. I don't think that people realize that. I think I've. I've had to experience some of that because my kids are older and with a little bit more freedom than I probably should give them with phones and.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And stuff like that. Yeah. I just think that it's hurtful. I just don't think that they think that we're human and not. And I think that it's. It's hurtful. And you don't even realize that, like. No, it's not just me, but I have a family attached to me.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? I have a family that hears these things too.

Yeah.

And. Yeah. I just don't think that people are aware and it's not fair.

Yeah. They don't care.

Yeah. And. Yeah. Anyway, I wanna. I wanna go through kind of how we started ACTS and like, all the things. Because I don't think neither one of us knew in the beginning of the year that this was going to be. That Acts 242 would actually be what it is now.

No. Like, no.

I don't even think after Acts we knew or expected it to be what it has turned into.

One thing I don't think people realize we. We knew ACTS was happening during the podcast we recorded.

Which one?

So the episode we did together on In Totality, we already had a website for X.

The second one.

[Unknown]

No.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, the second episode we recorded.

Yeah. Not the one that we deleted. I'm just saying that's how far in the worst it's been.

And that's another thing.

Okay.

[Megan Ashley]

She. We deleted a whole episode because she.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Has convictions, not because she said anything wrong, all because her heart wasn't right. Like. What?

I really be trying to love the Lord. You do.

And that really just irritates me about people. Like, people just do not. I know. I just literally just went backwards. But I don't care. I'm like, people just do not know how much you really actually love the Lord.

They don't believe me. They don't believe me. I told Megan the other day I was on TikTok and I Was swiping because, you know, Tick Tock is like abrupt videos. All I saw was, Jackie Hill Perry is a liar.

[Megan Ashley]

You're like, what did I do now?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I said, I guess. Okay, yeah, sure. Because you look like. I think the thing with slander, it can make you think that you're crazy. That part like, am I, am I a liar? And I'm like, I had to talk myself like, like, Jackie, they don't know you.

Correct.

Nobody, like, does. Does your husband think you're a liar? Does your pastor think you're a liar? Does the, do the people in your world think like, nobody in your world is rebuking you?

It's the people that don't know you.

Go ahead.

Here's my question to you because this is where I struggle with. And I know we went backwards for men, but I do want to ask this. I feel challenged because I can be. I can become very indifferent and harden my heart towards stuff where I can be like, I don't care.

[Megan Ashley]

But there has to be a balance.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Of not caring about what people say who don't know you and who have opinions about you, but also not hardening your heart. Where is the balance in that? Because for me, sometimes I can, because I'm an extremist. So I can struggle with like, how do I keep a soft heart but then also not care about what people say. Because the other night I, I literally searched the Internet for every bad thing that someone said about me. And I was up till 3 o'clock in the morning and I watched, I looked at every comment.

I don't know why.

I looked at every video. I looked at everything that everyone could possibly say bad about me.

I don't know why you did that.

I, I don't know why I did that either. But I felt like I was like, I don't know why I did that.

That's like self harm. A little bit. A little bit, Yeah.

I could have stopped at some point for sure. And then it was so crazy that I had gotten to like the end of it. It was like repeating videos. I was like, okay, you found them all. You're fine. They hate you. It's like, they hate you, they hate you. So just be done with it.

That's a little crazy. What's the question?

What's the balance between not hardening your heart and also not giving too much energy and attention to what people think about you?

I think in this season I've had to really lean into that. This is what it means to be a Christian. Like, remember, I Told you I was. Like, when you look at anybody in the Bible who is faithful, this is typical. When you look at Moses, this is typical. When you look at David, this is typical. When you look at Jesus, namely Paul, this is typical. Like, woe to you when all men speak well of you. For so even your ancestors did the false prophets. And so to me, I've had to lean into, like, oh, no, this is just. This is Christianity.

Yeah.

Like, this is. This is what that is, is you will be persecuted, you will be slandered, you will be lied on and rejoice. Like, this is what it means to share in Christ's sufferings. And so I've had to lean into the fact that this is also an opportunity to, like. I don't know, to like, be like Christ in a sense, because I feel like sometimes we want to be like Christ in the good stuff. Yeah. But this is like. No, this is being like Christ, too. And so I think this is a way to be like Christ as it relates to love. And so those times when I wanted to pop back, when people said things about me, you know, I said nothing. I literally said nothing. And that's being like Christ, because when they reviled him, it said he said nothing in return. He entrusted himself to the one who judges justly, and that is being like Christ. And so I think that's how you keep your heart soft, is you just keep giving your heart to the Lord.

Yeah.

So, yes, that's. That's. It's easy to. It's easy to be vengeful.

Easy.

That's very easy, I'm saying. And it's when you entrust yourself to the Lord that you actually show that you are nothing like what they said you are. You're actually nothing like what they said that you were. So you proved them wrong and you.

Proved that he does work.

Yeah.

Do you know what I'm saying? I think it's like, yeah, maybe in another season. Sure, you would have got this work.

Yeah, for sure you would have got this work. Yeah.

I have a mouth.

Yeah.

But in this season, you know what I'm saying? That doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It hurts a lot because, man.

Yeah, it hurts.

But I think that I'm grateful. I hate that you had to go through what you went through this year. I hate that I had to experience some of the things that I experienced. But it was very helpful to have a friend that was going through some stuff that, like, you know what I'm saying, Where it was like, I get it. Yeah, I get it.

And it gives you a different respect in reverence for Christ.

Yeah.

Because it is one thing to be slandered and humiliated publicly.

Hello.

And you're a sinner.

Hello.

It's another thing to read Matthew or Luke and see that Christ was being humiliated publicly and he's sinless. That is crazy.

Yeah.

It's like, oh, like. And you did that for me. I don't know. Like, I have a. I just have a different. I have a different appreciation of the cross in light of what I've been through that I did not have.

Yeah.

Because of what I've been through.

And maybe that's what it's for.

Exactly. So I think, you know, all the people listening when y'all go through something, you know, when people talk about you, you know, we got you now. We can. We can give y'all little advice.

Here you go.

On how to suffer. Well when. When Negroes got something.

Yeah. Just be quiet and love the Lord.

Yep.

It hurts, but be quiet.

Oh, it sucks.

[Megan Ashley]

I know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I know.

[Megan Ashley]

The conversation is getting so good and we're just about to get into all the things that happened leading up to Acts 242 conference. I don't want you guys to miss out. Next week, Jackie and I will continue our conversation for part two. Of all the things before, during, and after Acts 242, I hope you enjoyed part one. Part two is even better. See you next week. Hey, you guys, before you go, I just wanted to say how grateful I.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Am for your love and support. If you've enjoyed this episode, please take.

[Megan Ashley]

A moment and share it with a.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Friend or family member. If you could do me one huge.

[Megan Ashley]

Favor, head over to Apple Podcast and.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Leave a five star rating and a heartfelt review. It helps others just like you discover the podcast.

[Megan Ashley]

You guys, let's continue to spread the inspiration.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

For more about me and the podcast, visit WW www.themaganashley.com.

[Megan Ashley]

Until next time, stay encouraged that you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Are so valued and so loved.