EP 65: Faith Reframed: Grace, Renewal, and the Journey with Carl Lentz

Summary

Podcast Summary: In Totality with Megan Ashley
Episode: EP 65: Faith Reframed: Grace, Renewal, and the Journey with Carl Lentz
Release Date: April 8, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 65 of "In Totality with Megan Ashley," host Megan Ashley engages in a profound and candid conversation with Carl Lentz, a well-known Christian pastor and author. The episode delves deep into themes of grace, renewal, vulnerability, and the intricate balance between faith and personal struggles. Through their dialogue, Megan and Carl explore the complexities of living a life fully devoted to God, emphasizing the importance of authentic relationships, self-reflection, and the transformative power of grace.

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Personal Background and Experiences

The conversation begins with Megan and Carl sharing personal anecdotes about their lives, including their experiences living in different cities such as Atlanta, New York, and Tulsa. Carl reflects on his roots in Virginia and his deep affection for New York, particularly Brooklyn, where he previously lived and planted a church. He recounts his journey from college to becoming involved with Hillsong, illustrating how his environment shaped his ministry and personal faith.

Notable Quote:
Carl Lentz [05:15]: “I ended up playing at, you know, like, an amazing school. Top of the totem pole. Atlantic Coast Conference, North Carolina State, Raleigh, N.C. way out of my depth. But I found a love for that and then got saved.”

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Perspectives on Preaching and Sermon Delivery

A significant portion of the discussion centers on Carl's evolving perspective on preaching. He expresses frustration with traditional sermon methods that lack depth and perspective, often projecting personal struggles without addressing the underlying truths of Scripture. Carl advocates for sermons that focus on "mind renewal" rather than mere behavioral changes, emphasizing the necessity of transforming one's mindset to achieve genuine faith and obedience.

Notable Quote:
Carl Lentz [07:12]: “I think I would definitely talk about what I'm learning. It would probably be called 'Look Again.'”

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The Heart and Mind in Christian Faith

Megan prompts Carl to elaborate on the balance between heart and mind in Christian living. Carl emphasizes that while motives and the condition of the heart are crucial, transformation begins in the mind. He criticizes the overemphasis on actions devoid of mental renewal, arguing that a true change of mind leads to authentic spiritual growth.

Notable Quote:
Carl Lentz [10:29]: “Transformation starts in your mind. I think that's something we completely miss.”

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Overcoming Pride through Vulnerability

The dialogue shifts to the challenges of self-forgiveness and humility. Carl admits his struggles with pride and self-criticism, highlighting the difficulty of being kind to oneself. He underscores the importance of vulnerability, advocating for open-heartedness as a means to eliminate pride and foster genuine relationships with God and others.

Notable Quote:
Carl Lentz [21:05]: “I hate making mistakes. I hate disappointing people. I hate it.”

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Zeal versus Seasoned Approach to Faith

Megan and Carl discuss the concept of zeal in faith, contrasting youthful intensity with a more seasoned, intentional approach. Carl redefines zeal as "intentional focus and articulate, acute wisdom," suggesting that mature faith involves a balanced and thoughtful passion rather than unchecked fervor.

Notable Quote:
Carl Lentz [41:02]: “Zeal to me is intentional focus and articulate, acute wisdom being used.”

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Embracing Totality in Jesus's Character

The episode highlights the importance of understanding the totality of Jesus Christ's character. Megan and Carl argue against selective interpretation of Scripture, advocating for a holistic view that encompasses both the compassionate and authoritative aspects of Jesus. This comprehensive approach ensures a more accurate and impactful Christian witness.

Notable Quote:
Megan Ashley [44:29]: “The totality of Christ's character... Don't just zoom in on the point that's comfortable for you.”

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Transformations and Personal Journey

Carl shares his personal journey of transformation, from his early days in ministry to his struggles with past mistakes. He emphasizes God's mercy and the continuous process of renewing the mind, illustrating how embracing vulnerability and grace leads to true spiritual renewal.

Notable Quote:
Carl Lentz [77:01]: “If I knew what I know now, which is to share the hardest, deepest, darkest parts of you in a safe place, is the most freeing, powerful thing anybody could ever do.”

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Practical Advice and Journal Prompts

Towards the end of the episode, Megan introduces the concept of journal prompts as a tool for self-reflection and spiritual growth. Carl suggests a powerful journal prompt for listeners:

Journal Prompt:
What might I be hiding and why?

He elaborates on the importance of uncovering hidden truths and embracing vulnerability to experience freedom and healing.

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Conclusion and Future Engagement

The episode concludes with mutual encouragement and plans for future collaborations. Megan and Carl express their commitment to fostering authentic and compassionate Christian communities, emphasizing the need for grace, vulnerability, and a holistic understanding of faith.

Notable Quote:
Carl Lentz [89:58]: “The mercy that God has showed me, like, that's why I did a podcast. That's why we're even doing anything in public.”

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Key Takeaways

1. Mind Renewal Over Behavioral Changes: Genuine faith transformation starts with renewing the mind, not just altering behaviors.
2. Vulnerability as Strength: Embracing vulnerability is essential for overcoming pride and fostering authentic relationships.
3. Holistic Understanding of Jesus: A complete view of Jesus's character leads to a more accurate and impactful Christian witness.
4. Seasoned Zeal: Mature faith involves intentional and wise passion, distinguishing it from youthful fervor.
5. Grace and Mercy: Emphasizing God's grace and mercy is crucial for personal transformation and effective ministry.
6. Practical Tools for Growth: Utilizing journal prompts and self-reflection can aid in spiritual growth and self-awareness.

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Further Resources

• Carl Lentz's Podcast: Lights On – Dive deeper into Carl's journey and teachings on grace, renewal, and authentic faith.
• Journal Prompts: Incorporate regular journaling based on the suggested prompts to enhance personal spiritual growth.

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Final Thoughts

Episode 65 of "In Totality with Megan Ashley" offers a rich and introspective dialogue between Megan and Carl Lentz, addressing the profound aspects of living a life wholly devoted to God. Their conversation serves as a guide for Christians seeking to deepen their faith, embrace vulnerability, and navigate the complexities of personal and spiritual transformation with grace and wisdom.

Transcript

[A]

Foreign.

[B]

What's up, you guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Totality. I am your host, Megan Ashley. And let me just say I'm so grateful that you are joining me for another episode. If this is your first time. Welcome. I'm so happy that you're here and I hope that my prayer every episode is that God meets you here, like wherever you are. I pray that God meets you wherever you are in this episode. I hope he speaks something to you. I pray that you not just see me or my guest, but. Or that you encounter me or my guest, but that you encounter the Lord. He's the one who loves you the most. And so I just wish. Yeah, my prayer is that you, that you encounter him and that you have you walk away feeling seen, loved. I feel. I pray that you feel equipped in some type of way. And so, yeah, today I have a very special guest that I am super honored and excited to have. And I'm sure you're going to know him. Once you see his face, once you hear his name, you're going to know who he is. And so we don't really need to do a long drawn out intro, but everybody welcome. Carl Lentz.

[A]

It's a pleasure to be here.

[B]

It's. It's an honor in your beautiful, cool home. Thanks. Thanks. Did you, did you, when you were driving out here, were you like, dang.

[A]

Yeah, absolutely. It was like a reverse get out by, like, am I, am I going to make it out of here?

[B]

It's so far. Yeah, but it's lovely though.

[A]

I have another friend who lives out this way.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Okay. Yeah, it's. It's beautiful.

[B]

I don't hear that often, so that makes me feel.

[A]

Yeah, Georgia's beautiful.

[B]

Do you like it here?

[A]

I do.

[B]

Was this ever an option for you?

[A]

I'm a Virginia guy, so. Born and bred Virginia.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it kind of has Virginia vibes to it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But no, I mean, we didn't really think too much about Atlanta.

[B]

You're like, no, I do love it though.

[A]

I do love this area. It's cool.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. I, I never thought about Atlanta until probably, I want to say 20. Probably 20, 18, 2019 is when I was like, maybe I could move there. Maybe it'd be nice. I came and visit my. I have a lot of family actually that lives out here and I just loved it. But I came out here, my family lives out here, not in the city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Atlanta and this part of, of Georgia is totally different and I like that. I like the calm vibes People were.

[A]

Like that with New York. Like, when people think of New York, they're always like, how could you live in New York? I'm like, you're thinking of Times Square.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hate to break it to you, but there's more than those two blocks. Like, people don't live underneath that giant billboard.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, yes, I get.

[B]

Can I tell you that New York still to this day, is my favorite city.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Out of all the places. And I haven't been to all the places in the world, but New York. There's something about New York. Do you. Do you still go visit? Like, do you love it there still?

[A]

Yeah. It took me a while to be able to go back and, like, not be, like, nauseous, but for sure. I've been back a lot now, and I just. I love it more than I ever have.

[B]

What's your favorite bureau?

[A]

Favorite borough is Brooklyn. So we lived in. In Williamsburg, Brooklyn, when we first planned our church there. And. Yeah. So my girls are kind of raised there. They went to P.S. i forget which one it was, but they were true. Little Brooklyn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Little babies.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So New York is special.

[B]

Yeah, it's a.

[A]

It's a cool place.

[B]

I. So last year, I try to. I try to make it my mission to go at least twice a year, and for whatever reason, last year I was there, like, four or five times, and I was like, this is amazing. Like, I just love being in the city. There's nothing like it. It's still, like I said, one of my favorite places ever, so.

[A]

It's beautiful.

[B]

And now you are in Tulsa.

[A]

Tulsa, Oklahoma. We love it. It's. If you would have told me I was going to live in Tulsa at any point in my life, I probably wouldn't have believed you. But I actually spent a lot of time in Oklahoma years ago. I was doing some stuff with some guys who play basketball in Oklahoma City. So I was in there. It was in Oklahoma City a lot, so I knew that Oklahoma was cool. But we. We love it. It's been a. It's been a really beautiful change of pace. It's slow. People are really kind, and it's been a great place for our family to keep on. Keep on, keeping on.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The Southern hospitality is different. Yeah, it's different. Okay, so I have some random questions that I want to ask you.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Okay. Are you up for this?

[A]

Ready?

[B]

All right. You're not scared, are you? I know you're not. You're like, have you seen my life? I faced. I faced enough. I'm not Scared of anything. All right. Favorite sneaker.

[A]

That's a great freaking first one. I gotta go with the Concord Jordans. If I was, like, talking Jordans. But. Yeah.

[B]

Okay. Favorite basketball team?

[A]

Chicago Bulls.

[B]

Okay. Still, you're just, like, classic. It doesn't matter. But they're record.

[A]

I mean, I grew up in Naperville, Illinois, from first grade to sixth grade. So my formative basketball years were. Was. Jordan was the real Bulls.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So out of. Out of love. Yeah. Now I love, like, just a bunch of players. So I don't have, like, team loyalty any longer. It's more like if I love a guy on the team, I automatically want that team to do well. But Bulls is where I. You know.

[B]

Okay. So I think I know that you're about. I know that you're a basketball fan. Everybody knows that because you played. You played ball.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So your love is ball. But do you care about football at all?

[A]

I do.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

I love football more. I was a better football player than I was.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah. But I just chose. I just was in love with the game. So I went and I was good. I probably wasn't good enough to be where I ended up, which is kind of a cool life story anyway, but I just had, like, one road lead to another. I ended up playing at, you know, like, an amazing school. Top of the. Top of the totem pole. Atlantic Coast Conference, North Carolina State, Raleigh, N.C. way out of my depth. But I found a. Found to love that and then got saved. Kind of like midway through my sophomore year of College for the 15th time.

[B]

I'm gonna come back.

[A]

That one stuck. Ye.

[B]

I'm gonna come back to that because I'm. I want to ask you about that, but if you had to preach a message today, what would you title it? Like, what would you preach on?

[A]

I don't know. So the way I do sermons is. I mean, I. I would always. I was never a guy who could plan, like, a year out. So I remember hearing. I was at a conference one time and a preacher was like, I have all my sermons prepared.

[B]

I always think for the entire year.

[A]

And I was like, that sounds really boring. I saw, like, drawing from the well that I'm in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. But I know what it would be around. I think I've thought about it here and there because I've changed so much in the way that I think. I look at preaching now and I just go, ah, this is. It's frustrating to hear and watch because living that life for so long and now learning what I'm Learning, you know, I just. Some of the angles that we take are not helpful, and we just don't know it. We just keep doing it over and over and over again. So I don't know what I would do. I think I would definitely talk about what. What I'm learning. It would probably be called Lights on, which is my podcast. I'm kidding. It would be something. It would be something around. Look again. Look again.

[B]

I like that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So just because I'm interested and you told me I could ask you. Whatever. What. When you say that there are angles that you hear in preaching that might frustrate you, or it's like, oh, man, we're getting it wrong. What. What are those angles?

[A]

It's a lack of perspective. So when we attack certain things in the Bible, typically every preacher is going to project whatever they're going through. They can get up there and say they're not, they are. And it's the angle and it's the spirit in which we take the angle. So there's a different way sometimes to. There's better questions to ask. So we're really quick to point at something that we're not certain that's what it is. And that is frustrating now because we're. People are so genuine in what they listen to that you can sit under somebody for a long time and trust that what they're saying is legitimate. And they're. Surely there will be parts that are. But if it's not accurate or correct, you could live your whole life thinking something that's not what you're supposed to be thinking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that is what frustrates me. So, like, case with case in point. I talked to a guy who's just going through stuff, and he's like, man, I just battle this spirit of lust. I said, hold up. Spirit of what goes lust? I say, who told you that? He's like, well, I heard this sermon. I said, okay, cool. And I started asking some other questions, and this word kind of faded and just turns out, lo and behold, guy's doing really well, Growing through some things. He's a human.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But he's been carrying around this label of a spirit of lust. And that's the kind of stuff that drives me nuts.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that's, you know, that's just a guy sitting there wanting to learn, wanting to listen. He's going to take what. What's. What's been told. And, yeah, I think there's a lot of our faith that has checked out when it comes to the iq, when it Comes to the brain. So we're still going with a lot of heart stuff.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that sounds good. It preaches really well. Just isn't complete.

[B]

So when you say it's not complete and when you say heart stuff, how. How do we attack the heart? Because you do hear so much in, in the word. And the reason why this is interesting to me is because I'm. I'm really been dealing with my heart because it's been showing me a lot of me. And so when you say we're missing a lot of the IQ part, how can we be mindful of our hearts? Because I think our hearts do matter.

[A]

Well, when you say heart, what do you mean?

[B]

When I say heart, I mean the motive in what we do things in. Right.

[A]

So you talking about your motives?

[B]

Yeah, our motives. And I think the condition of our heart and the posture of our heart and how when we don't like. I think we're very guarded with ourselves. And so I think that even in the times of prayer, I have been very limited at how much I expose to God. Even though I know the Lord can see it all, but I don't share it all to give him access to kind of help, you know what I'm saying? So like for example, when David is. Is asking God, search my heart, it says God is. He's the only one who knows our hearts. Right. And so I think there's. There needs to be a mindfulness of allowing the Lord to come in our hearts and expose some of this stuff so that we can be postured better. But when you say IQ and more of our, our brains, like, what do you mean by that? And how can we. Well, I be mindful of both.

[A]

Yeah. I think that transformation starts in your mind. I think that's something we completely miss. So I think Jesus hung out a lot in the area of your mind, how you think.

[B]

Yeah. And so that's in Romans 12.

[A]

Oh yeah. Yeah. It's everywhere. Yeah. But we love to talk about the doing. Doing, doing, do more, be more, do more. And it's fruitless.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If that was the case, Jesus would have said, change your, change your life. Never. You would have told the disciples, make sure people go and change their actions. Never said that. Always repent.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is not a do. That is a mind shift.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. But we leave that at the altar. So it's like people mind shift. One time I repented, I changed my mind. And now we spend the rest of our lives changing behaviors. It doesn't make any sense. Because if you Got saved because you changed your mind. Then that would mean you can change continually because you keep changing your mind, which is why Romans 12 says, renew your mind. It's not a one time thing. Yeah, well, we like to look over that. We just go to actions and.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, for me, I relate to what you said deeply because I had areas in my life where it's funny. We say, I don't. I don't expose this area of my heart to God as if he can't see it.

[B]

As if he can't see it today.

[A]

Lord, I'm only bringing you 80. My quiet time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, as if that's gonna resonate with the king of heaven. So I think there is. There is something to be said for. I like clarifying when people say heart to see if they're talking about motive. Because if you're talking about motives, that's a. That's a really nuanced conversation.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I don't know anybody who has good motives. God does. And people get hung up there. Like, I don't know if my motives are right. I often tell people, let's just assume they're not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because now you've talked yourself into either way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it's like, I know my heart is to do this and my heart is to do that. It might be.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But the heart is also deceitful above all things. So where does that leave you? Leaves you at the foot of the cross again.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because, Lord, I don't know. I think my heart's right. I think my motives are right. But I can't know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because what seems right to me is often not right to you.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

So I'm gonna do the best I freaking can because I feel like this is exactly what I'm called to do. And if my motives are wrong, thank God I'm gonna keep renewing my mind and you will show me. Yeah, but the posture that we live right there. Your book club, you said you're reading a book called Relax. We need more of those books.

[B]

Yeah, the. You should read it.

[A]

The pseudo intensity that I see right now from my vantage point is just ridiculous to me. The intensity of this kind of vibe of Christianity is it's. It's very interesting to see.

[B]

Do you feel like it's moved towards more moralism? Like, do you think that that's an issue? Like a. That's problematic? Because I feel like. I feel like just being in this pla. Just having this platform, I get a lot of people that are, you know, frustrated with there's two things. There's two angles. One, I think that people are frustrated because they do, do, do. I'm doing this. I'm praying. I'm reading the word. I'm going to church. I'm done. I'm not having sex. I'm not smoking weed. I'm not drinking. And they still don't feel changed. Their behaviors have changed.

[A]

Right.

[B]

But they don't feel like a new creature. Right. And then I also see the other angle of where it's like, just do these things. And you can say that you're a Christian and God is. You know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That God's in your heart and that you're. You know what I'm saying? So it's like this weird thing with moralism. Do you think that that's problematic when it comes to the Christian context?

[A]

I think Jesus thought it was problematic. He hated the dues with the wrong use. So he's interested in you. You're focused on the dues. So, yeah, I think it is problematic. I think there's a huge part of our. Our walk that should be seen in your actions, but you can fake the hell out of an action.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So I know it's. I know I have. And there is. It's not even fake. Is a. Is a pretty strong judgment. I think we can try our best to do what we think is right. And there is. There's a lot to be said for the place people are coming from when they do that. That's normally where I go. So if I talk to someone who's frustrated like that, I say, okay, before we go there, like, what would it. What do you mean? You don't feel new? What is it? What would feeling new feel like? And they start to stutter a little bit. Okay. So you can't articulate what you're frustrated about. Does that sound logical? That sound resourceful? Probably not. And so you get to go back to the baseline with somebody and say, hey, this is. This is what it looks like to be new. I can't promise you a feeling. Feeling could be this great coffee.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Could just be woke up in your brain. Chemicals landed all on the right side.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

For one day. Great. Good for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But so for me, I have a really realistic view of. Of what I should be looking like and thinking like. And therefore, how I feel is immediately reflected in what I'm thinking. So there's a, you know, that succession. Anybody out there, even armchair therapists, will tell you. How you think determines how you feel. How you feel determines what you do. And what you do determines who you become. So if you're liking what you're doing, it's not going to take better doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You might want to check here, because I'm going to think different now. I feel different now. I do different now. I'm becoming different. Most of the shallow Christianity that I see with the guys yelling and the preaching and the stuff, and it's. It's like this deep. It's like, do this, not that. Do this, do this. And y'all are doing this. We got to do this. I see this. It's like, cool. Anybody want to talk about the. The engine that causes all this? Anybody?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But a lot of those guys don't do the work themselves.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So they're going to speak from what they know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You can get away with that for a while.

[B]

I think what I'm learning, too, in. Because I took some time not podcasting. I think I told you I was. I did it for two and a half years straight. Every week. I had a podcast out for the last two and a half years. And after. In 2023, I gave the Lord a serious yes. And I grew up in church. Like, my mom is a minister. You know, I always was in church. All the time. All the time, all the time. And when I wasn't in church, I was at somebody's house praying or something. So, you know, I. That's my whole life. And. And I'm grateful for it. I used to get really annoyed by it, but I'm, like, grateful that my mom kept me in and stuff. But I gave the Lord a serious yes in. In 2023. And there was something like, oh, you know, like I felt like I just. I really encountered the Lord in a real way. And I was in such a broken place. And he was so kind to me, and I just could not believe how kind he was. Like, that was something.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I just never really, like, you know, God is kind. But until you really experience how kind he is, in light of how kind you haven't been towards him, it's just a different appreciation that you have. And I was just overwhelmed by his kindness. I couldn't believe that he would be that generous with his love towards me because I had not been generous to him and not been kind to Him. And I was far, far from Him. My heart was far from Him. I didn't think about him, consider him in the way that I know I should. And so when he. When he. When I encountered him in such a real way, it was right here on this porch. And he was kind to me. I remember. I'm like, I think when, you know, when someone does you a solid right, you're like, I'm gonna be good to this person. Like, I'm just gonna be, I'm gonna do all the right things. Like, I'm gonna make sure I do. And so there was that thing of like, I'm gonna just do right by you. I'm just gonna do right by you. I just wanna do right by you. Cause you were so kind to me and you didn't have to be. So I just wanna do right by you. And taking this break, I'm just learning and I feel like the Lord was just like, it is not you that does the doing. You can't change you, you can't change your heart. You can't renew your own mind. Like, it's me that does it. And, and, and I think that like, that is a place that I want people to know. So bad is like, it is, it's he that does the doing. We can offer ourselves right. We can give ourselves to him. But I think it's, it's really the Lord that does the work. Hearts, it's really the one that, that renews our mind and it's him that does the doing. And I think that this book that I was telling you about by Megan Faye Marshman, that's what's so beautiful about it, is that you can relax because he's got you. Like, he's, he's got you. He really does. And I think like, if you know his love, I don't know, it just has done, it has changed so much for me because I always. That moralism thing, like, I'm just gonna stop doing this and stop doing this and stop doing this and stop doing this. And really it's like that's. You're just putting yourself at a frustrating disadvantage in your relationship with him.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[A]

Yes. I think you're trading one condemnation for the other. So my experience, that's typically what I see is someone leaves this world where they, they know I'm bad, I'm doing all the bad stuff and then I feel bad and then I get saved and there's about a 24 hour period of joy and then you're right back to feeling bad again. But now it's God, you're disappointing. As if that was design.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So I think you're hitting it on the head when it comes to the, the, the nuanced dance of like, we can Offer ourselves. You know, that's in addiction circles, the first step for people to put their hand up, say, I can't do this. And I always used to go at different counselors because I was like, why I can do this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I'm actually here, though. So there is. I'm always looking for the.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Your accountability, but to the point of. I mean, can you imagine. I was going to ask you, do you. Do you find it easier or hard to be kind to yourself?

[B]

Me personally? Hard. I'm. I'm. I'm probably. I'm better now only because I felt convicted by how I was treating myself. Because. Because when it says God won't forgive if you haven't forget forgiven, but it doesn't give you a person. It's like, forgive and in. Sometimes for me, I'm the hardest person to forgive me. I am hard to forgive. Like, I. It's hard for me to forgive myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I. I hate making mistakes. I hate disappointing people. I hate it. I just hate it. And a lot of. A lot of part of it too, is pride. Because I. I want to be. I want to be looked at in a certain way. I want to be. I want to be in a certain type of light. I want people to esteem me in a certain type of way. So some of it is pride. And another part of it is just how I was raised. Like, my mom made me aware of my. Of myself. Like, she made me very self aware and like, you got to be accountable for your actions. And so I think though that combination of those two have made me my worst enemy, my biggest critic. It's so hard for me to forgive me, but I felt. I felt like the Lord was like. I don't know. I just felt convicted by it. Like, I love you. Like, now you're attacking the one I love. Like, I love you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Now you're an enemy against the one that I love. And I have an issue with that.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's. I think that that's for some people, especially for people who deal with mental health issues, like, it's a hard thing.

[A]

Yeah. Well, it's. Yeah. Hard. It sometimes is deadly. I think that it's like the. The biggest robber of people's joy. And I love people. I love asking people the kindness question because you typically know by the way somebody lives and talks, whether they're kind to themselves or not. Takes me probably four minutes. And I knew you'd be right on the line. I knew you because you really resonate when people talk about dues. Like, you really lean in when people start getting to the like and that. That's reflective of something in you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not good or bad. It's just an occurrence. That's okay. Like, for me, I really resonate when I see people that smile and they seem secure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I do not resonate with the people who are going to give you a ten step plan because my brain shuts off. Because I don't believe you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't, I don't even, I don't even know what you're. I don't even get that frame. For me, if I think that God has been kind to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That makes me feel at ease.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there's no way that I'm going to start doing stuff out of striving.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If I feel at ease.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So when people are striving, something's wrong here. You don't, you don't think how God thinks about you at all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because there's no way you can feel and do the things that you do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you thought this morning, my Lord, God is kind to me. You can't live like you live. You can't be as mean as you are. You can't be as cynical as you are. You can't be as annoying as you are.

[B]

For sure. Yeah.

[A]

Like, so you just know people like that. And so I found myself really gravitating towards those people more and more. The older I get and the more stuff that we've walked through.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's become super clear to me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I definitely, I definitely would say for a large part of my life. And if I'm being honest with you, it. It really hasn't been until recently, like, taking this break away from podcasting that I've had like some real revelations about me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think the more you, you, you make a conservative effort to have an intimacy with the Lord, the more you know about yourself. The more I know about him, the more I know about me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think what you said is, is very profound because I think if you. And it tells us that in his word, like, think on things that are lovely, things that are pure, things that are praiseworthy. And I think if you, if you actually take that on, it's very hard to think negative. Like, it's hard to feel. There's no space for it. If you're making an effort to think on things.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That are kind.

[A]

And, you know, I'm laughing because that's Such a great bathroom scripture that people love. Like, when you go into people's bathrooms, you always see that whatever's praised, it's like a bathroom thought. But people are like, I don't live that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't have time to think about what's praiseworthy. It's like, wow, so you thought that was a suggestion. You thought that was a coffee mug. You're really big on the condemnation and the sin and the repentance and all that stuff, but you have a bathroom scripture about the most transformative thought in the Bible.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why don't you resonate with that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I know why people don't resonate with it. Because it makes their brain explode. Because if you spent all day doing what the Bible says to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is to whatever is true, whatever's holy, whatever's pure.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You think on that. Good luck trying to do all the stuff that you're trying not to do. So, like, for instance, you know, you had a beautiful couple on here talking about purity. That sounds great. You know, I've got my own opinions on the way people attack that. But if you are single and you don't want to do certain things before you're married, it's a lot better. It's a lot healthy, healthier as a posture to think. I'm gonna be bold, I'm going to be confident, and I'm going to be humble, and I'm going to be appropriate, and I'm going to be fun. And then you feel creative. And then when you're creative, you do things that are positive, and then you become a person who continues that as opposed to, tell you what, God's called me to be consecrated. And I'm gonna go out to this mall here, Cobb Galleria, and I'm gonna lock in. I'm gonna lock in because I am holy. God set me apart, and I will not let my. I. I will gouge out my own eye with my fork at dinner if I have to. It's like, cool, man. That sounds great. What if there's a better way that preaches well and there'll be a thousand tick tockers who get on there and give you a thumbs up? I don't know if that's right. There's. There's a. There's a. There's a. Maybe another way to look at that, which is a lot. We're going. Maybe it could be said we're going for the same goal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Which is to live a holy life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But your route looks really horrible. Like what if there's more ease?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What if there's more peace? What if there's more kindness? And there's people who, with old religious spirits who are like, there can't be that much joy, like, can't be that much kindness in the message. It's like, I don't know why my voice goes to Deep Georgia when I do that guy, but I do. It's got to be a little bit more. Says who?

[B]

Yeah, says who?

[A]

Says when. So I think there's a, there's a beautiful current flowing right now that I do see outside of that weird algorithm of the worst part of Christianity, which I see on my daughters sometimes. They'll show me stuff on this tick tock and I'll be like, oh my gosh. And you see the thousands and thousands of people commenting on. You're like, wow. Like, I, I pray for that generation because their template is that we had, you know, for better, for worse. I'm 46, but I had a different template. And for the, the weaknesses of it, there were a lot of strengths. And one of those is like a calmer, more peaceful way to look at some of these deeply spiritual matters. And there's a time and a place for spiritual fervor. Not saying, yeah, that's not real, but I'm saying that the way that people go about it, I just go, I'm not sure you have spent a whole lot of time with the God that lead you by still waters.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Makes you lie down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Then he restores your soul. That make you lie down part is my favorite right now. I was talking, you know, beforehand about the scripture that I read a lot, and it's still Psalm 23. There was a period where I just didn't really want to. I couldn't open my Bible. So if you're a preacher that's definitely, you know, had your life explode in some ways in your face. It's. It's hard for people to understand that what is a part of your life. As a non pastor, it is my whole life. So every Bible, every bookmark, every sermon, every, like my quiet, everything's kind of mixed. It's kind of a weird blend. So for me, it took me a while to open up my Bible without feeling like, you know, I can't. And so I was like, I, I, Lord, I'm gonna, I'm gonna read this psalm. I'm gonna stay here as long as I can. And it really was beautiful. And I didn't really see that part of the scripture until this chapter of My life, which is he makes you lie down, and then he restores your soul. I just would roll over that scripture and I get to the good stuff. Yeah, but that makes you lie down. That's. That's exactly what happened to me. God's so kind, where it's like, you don't want to lay down. I'm gonna make you lie down. I'm gonna make you. And then he restores your soul. But you can't have the restoration without the lying down. And you can't lie down unless you have God's hand putting you down. And people don't talk about that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's why we're Christians.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's because there are gonna be times where I don't want to lie down.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I don't want to stop doing what I'm doing, and. But I signed up to be a part of a faith that I gave the keys back. So I'm not driving. I like it when I can drive, but that time isn't often, so I gotta lie down.

[B]

Is that where you feel like you were when you. When. When your life kind of changed and transformed? Two questions. One, I want to go back to when you first felt like you really gave your life to the Lord. Like, what was that moment for you? What was that like for you? What was that heart like? What did you feel? And where. Where are you now in comparison to that moment?

[A]

I have an awesome family. My mom and dad are amazing, faithful, lifelong believers. So my template, you know, I started on third base spiritually.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Because I had a beautiful example.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I feel like I always had a relationship with Jesus. I mean, I remember probably the first time I ever, like, said a prayer that is that. That we now attach on to true salvation. Well, I would have been probably 8 or 9. But the time I really, really clicked into choosing to lay it down was I came home from college, and I had lived a really. Kind of a really rough life. Rough meaning just doing what I wanted to do, and I was in a situation to do a lot of it, whatever it is for somebody, that's probably what it was for me.

[B]

Because you were in college, so you had freedom.

[A]

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. And it was like perfect storm, you know, all this. All this stuff had developed exactly as I wanted, and. And I. I just didn't feel right. There's some stuff in me that I was like. I remember I was at a party one night in. In college, and something was taking place, and I was like, I'm. I'm Pretty. I'm pretty dark, but I'm not that dark. And it stuck with me. Like, I remember thinking, this is. This is too much. Like, I don't. I don't want to be that guy. Like, if I. It was almost like I felt if I go any further, you know, I come back, I'm 19 years old. Like, even though that. That wasn't true, but, yeah, thank God, at that moment, I thought that. And I went home that weekend. My parents took the. To this church. They're like, we're going to this new church. You're gonna love it. And I'm like, okay. You know, my mom would ask me every single time, you know, shout out to Kathy Lentz, who surely is gonna watch this. And I went with her and my dad and. And the preacher's name was Steve Kelly, still at Wave Church in Virginia Beach. And he just gave a really beautiful, clear call to salvation, which I don't think anybody. You don't. You don't have to have that. Like, a lot. We count that as salvations. Like, how many people are getting saved?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like, okay, I'm not sure you're really understanding the concept how deep this is, but so be it. And I put my hand up, walked up and was like, I'm just gonna. I'm gonna give this a shot. So let me see if I actually trial this stuff. Let me see if I actually do some of the things that I'm told to do. And that just led to this crazy succession of thing after thing happening. And. And lo and behold, God is gracious and he's faithful. And my life began to change, and that was it. So that. That moment for me marked kind of like one of my adult Faith. Began 19 years old, got baptized, and immediately taught correctly about the Holy Spirit, which is a huge help. A lot of people have a gap between when they get saved and then when someone teaches them correctly about who the Holy Spirit is. I got that right away as I was rolling. Yeah, fully. My clip was fully loaded.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was it. Kind of left school and then came back to Virginia Beach. Tried to figure out what I wanted to do. I was like, I want to study the Bible. My dad and I looked up Bible colleges, and we found this one in. In la. Flew out to la. My dad was like, this looks legit. It was a guy named Jack Hayford who has since gone to be in heaven. He's a titan of the faith, very conservative, deep theologian vibe, and went there for about six months and worked in Beverly Hills had a motorcycle, was complete idiot, but doing my best, and collided with Hillsong music somewhere. And then one thing led to another, and I went to Hillsong Conference and in Australia, and then I was like, yeah, I resonate with this. This church.

[B]

So it was that moment when you went to Australia. Did you just, like, that's when you felt, like, I'm called to preach. I'm called pastor? Or did you feel that back then?

[A]

I'd never have felt that.

[B]

Really?

[A]

No. That's why I love poking holes in that theology for people, because people love to talk about that.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

It's good for anybody watching to know that it's okay to not have that clarion call. I got, you know, proof in the pudding that I'm pretty sure it would be safe to say it's part of my calling, but I never had a revelatory moment.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

That I'm gonna. I want to do ministry. That's why there is a disconnect with me sometimes with the generation behind who see ministry as an actual job in. In a career.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, someone said to me the other day, you lost your career. I said, career? Like, I never had a career, brother. Like, I know what he meant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I just kept on serving God. And there were some things that were innate in my gifting that made sense. So I started to. To lead in different spheres, and. Yeah. And then. Then there. There I started to think, man, I could really. I think I can do this.

[B]

So you were aware of the gift that you had to communicate?

[A]

Well, I mean, I definitely, like, the day I got the. The week after I got saved, I was like, well, I don't know how this works, but if I'm not going out drinking, nobody is. So I just called everybody I knew, and I brought probably two rows with me to church, and really doing that.

[B]

Really.

[A]

And then everybody that I would bring, I would say, this is what you have to do, too. So you have to go find 10 people, and before you know it, you know, we got something going on in Virginia Beach.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

I just. So I didn't realize that was the gift at the time. I just thought it was. It was very condemning. I used to tell people, you're just. You lack boldness. That was my favorite thing. Like, I'm not bold just because I can stand up at a. What I didn't understand is I was trying to explain the difference between the gift and the action. So I might have a gift of boldness and clarity at times, but the equivalent is when, like, I might not be Able to worship lead like this person Tasha Cops. But I can still worship. That's kind of how I began to explain reaching people with your faith. Because I went from like, everybody should be Tasha Cops. Like, no, they shouldn't.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like she was. And I. I started realizing I'm putting too much on people. But you can still reach people your way.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

And that's when I started getting effective. I stopped making people do what I was doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Not realizing It'd be like LeBron trying to teach somebody a particular LeBronie thing.

[B]

Ye.

[A]

And God's like, I can't do that. Well, that happens in our faith a lot. And so we start to elevate these people that really. They're not special. They're not better. They just have a gifting that's huge in this one area. We make that the thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah, I started realizing it and then I did an internship with Brian Houston in Australia and then went back to Virginia beach to be a intern young adult pastor with my wife. We were married for six months. Month seven, we found out we had a passenger. So we are a brand new married couple. Laura's pregnant. We land, and we're interned youth pastors in Virginia Beach. And we just took on a ministry. Had 30, 40 people in it.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

God breathed on it and we loved it. It was incredible. Seven years later, we end up going to New York to. To plant a church. So, yeah, it was. There are aspects of my life I look back on, and they're just. There's. There's beautiful, clear moments. There's other things where you just look back and you're like, man, it just. That's what I always tell people, like, don't. Don't be looking for a big break. Wake up every day ready to serve.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you do that enough, it amounts to a big break.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And you won't look for that anymore. So we were never looking for, like, this big thing. Even with Hillsong New York, it wasn't like a. We're going to do something cool and trendy and whatever. It was just this is. This is our goal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're going to go here. We're going to do the best we can to serve the city.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And some of the. Some of it was, you know, spectacular. So. But yeah, that's. That's a long way to say that's when I got my.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My salvation moment.

[B]

Do you feel that when you. When you were in that space, like, when you first gave your life to the Lord and you were like, all right. If I ain't drinking, ain't nobody drinking. I'm about to get everybody in here Sunday, Wednesday, whatever it is. That zeal that you had, right? I remember, you know, when I gave my life to the Lord when I was young, there was just such a zeal that you have. Like, I remember being in youth groups and just like that zeal. How can we stay zealous? Like, how can we, like, keep our zeal and be wise with the zeal? Because I do believe that there are. There are moments when you give your life to the Lord and you are so not wise with your zeal. Like, you have all this, like, energy and, like, oh, I want to get everybody saved. And you just go about it in such wrong ways. Yeah, but how can we be wise? Like, like, where you are right now, going through all the things that you've gone through. Like, would you say that you still are zealous? Like, you still have zeal for the things of the Lord and for the gospel? Like, do you feel that zeal still?

[A]

But let's define zeal so I can make sure we're working on the right term. So how do you define zeal?

[B]

For me, when I think of, like, be zealous, I think of being very energetic towards the thing. Like, being passionate about a thing, being like, I, like, I'm. I'm excited about it. I'm like, just the way people are about football and. Or basketball. It's like, I'm. I. I love the gospel. I want to see people saved. Like, I want to see souls saved. Like, I'm very excited. Think that for me is at least what it means for me.

[A]

I love that. I think it's, oh, I'm a big definition guy, because I no longer assume I'm saying the same thing as anybody.

[B]

I love that.

[A]

And it's really cool to do because it's like, oh, you know what I mean? It's like, no, I really don't.

[B]

Yeah, because you can find yourself in an argument like, you're talking about two different things.

[A]

I didn't. I had no idea you thought that's what it meant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I'll use this kind of word picture often. For instance, you'll hear someone say, like, I want to stay, like, young in love. Like, I don't want to be one of those couples just sits across from each other at dinner, staring. Well, what if I told you they're staring because they know what each other's thinking? You're over there asking your cool Google questions, being annoying and dumb. Judging this couple who has so much time under the. Under the belt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That they can just sit there and nod at each other and have full conversations. You're gonna. That's not zealous. So I think I use the word seasoned. Like, if you ever had something that's good. Yep. Have you ever had some good seasoning on top of it? It's better. Seasoning takes time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It takes expertise.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It takes wisdom. So I think when I look at people who are like, oh, you know, zeal. You mean energetic passion and, like, lights out, sold out. Cool. Zeal to me is intentional focus and articulate. Acute wisdom being used. So my definition has changed over the years. So my energy is the same, but the way it's. I saw. I hope that it would be more seasoned. So, like, the love that Laura and I, we've been married, you know, over two decades.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's a long time to act like our dinner tonight is gonna look like the one we did when I first took her on our first date.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

True story. We went to a restaurant, and I got a glimpse of the menu, and I was like, hey, we gotta go to a different place. I didn't realize that this menu. And so I knew right away that she was cool as a fan because she laughed it off. But to think that our. Like, I'm gonna judge how we are to how we were then. We had no responsibility. We had no knowledge. We had no. So sometimes when you see a young Christian in their mind, they're zealous. I don't call. I don't. I don't say a person like that zealous. I just say they're. They're loud and they're intense. Zeal. The Bible uses that word for a very clear reason. So I think I like saying, lord, help me, season my life, because I don't want to be a guy who doesn't care. Like, I. I care. I would. I'll probably say I care more.

[B]

You probably care more now than you.

[A]

Did before today than I ever did. But the way that I do it hopefully has matured in better ways. So I was talking to a young legend. I did a podcast with a guy I love. And I was just saying, hey, man, I. I don't particularly think. And it's just my view. It's a totally subjective one. I don't think someone's bold for standing up at Chick Fil A, preaching the gospel, and letting people know it's time to repent. He might have a hundred thousand views of that thing and people giving him credit. I don't think that's bold. I just think that was loud and people were trying to have lunch, and you stood up on a table. That's not bad. But to act like that's the beacon of zeal. No. What if. What if there's another way to reach people that's equally as effective? That might not look as. You know. So I think there is, like, this weird tension in culture right now of, like, better than. Yeah, we're better. I'm better than you, you're better than me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

No, you're not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You just are doing it a different way.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That has zero time tested Fruit B. Okay, cool. Well, we need everybody. So the better than vibe is enough to get me just to come out of retirement to preach one message, you're not better than, and then I'll go back to being a podcaster and a coach. But that kind of stuff does get my. Get my spiritual ears up, because it's like, no, we need to. It's okay to be smart still.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's okay to use practical common sense. In fact, I could make a case that Jesus was practically.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The smartest guy. In addition to everything else, he just was practically smart. The way he would have talked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Posture. He would have had conversations. The time of day. I mean, you just have this beautiful body of work.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

From the perfect one.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That we can draw.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So much strength. All of us have a role to play in this, the way that God's created us.

[B]

Yeah. I think that's probably, like, the name of the podcast is called In Totality, and it's for a reason. Because I think we need to look at all of it. You know what I mean? Look at the totality of Christ's character. Look at the totality of his nature. Look at the totality of his word.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't just zoom in on the point that's comfortable for you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Don't just, like, zone in on the point that convicts the person that you mad at.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or that you have an issue with.

[A]

Great.

[B]

But look at all of it. And even. Just. Even when you think of his character, it's like. Like, look at all of it.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. There were times where he was flipping tables. There was times where he was.

[A]

Sure.

[B]

Gentle. Yeah.

[A]

But Christians struggle to believe two things.

[B]

Can be true at the same time.

[A]

That's the IQ part I'm talking about.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. I think the totality is a beautiful word because when it comes to the fervent. Nature that. No, everybody's fallen short. There are some people who are like, they don't. They're not passionate enough about the lost. Okay, well, according to that logic, none of us are. Because everybody. Us talking, everyone watching. If we all say we believe what we say we believe.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, tomorrow is not promised. And if you miss out on Jesus, the. The consequences are severe. Most of us are going to sleep tonight. Most of us have plans. Most of us are even the most fervent zealot among us. He's gonna have a nap. So there's no. The bar has been moved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Jesus is perfect. There is. So everyone now is left to do the best they can being led by the Holy Spirit. And I just think that. That we feel better sometimes by making it look like someone else is worse. And sometimes churches can be the number one propagators of that kind of logic. And that bothers me. And I think that God's going to shift that, because it doesn't. It's not working.

[B]

Yeah. I can go on all day about stuff that I think is wrong. And. And I think I did a lot of that last year. And I think for me personally, the Lord has kind of just shifted me in a way where it's like, start with you, because I'm gonna stack these 10 commandments up and you ain't gonna meet them neither. You know what I'm saying? So it's like you can be irritated with how other people do things, but start. Start with you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because my relationship really is with you. And I'm not trying to say how I'm not giving this, like, yeah, cookie cutter gospel words like own grace and like, God, it's your own personal relationship. But I do think that we need to start with us. Like, am I addressing the sins within myself? Am I addressing, you know, the brokenness maybe within myself.

[A]

You know who else said that?

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know why people don't love to do that? It's hard work.

[B]

Yeah. It's the hardest work.

[A]

That's why it's so much easier to be like, yeah, yeah.

[B]

But you, bro, can I tell you that, like, I'm realizing. And you can tell me if I'm wrong because you're like, big bro, I'm only 35.

[A]

That's a very kind way to say I'm old. I mean, please continue old. But I don't feel old.

[B]

You know, Big homie, big bro, gotcha.

[A]

Received.

[B]

I feel like what I'm learning is and not. And I don't want to Say this, like in a bad way, hear me, is that I feel like the more I am learning who God is, the more, the more seasoned I'm becoming as a Christian, the more I'm realizing that it is hard. It is very simple. Like when I think about the Bible, it is something like you read it and it's like, it sounds very simple. And it is simple. It is black. It. A lot of stuff is black and white. It is black and white, but it is hard. And what I'm realizing is, is that not having sex wasn't the hard thing. Stop smoking weed wasn't the heart. Heartest thing. I'm not gonna say they weren't hard, but it wasn't the hardest.

[A]

Anti weed podcast. I just gotta know where I'm sitting.

[B]

I am anti. Whatever the Lord tells you to do. If the Lord is convicting you.

[A]

Because I just want to make sure I know what part of Georgia I'm in.

[B]

I'm just. Whatever the Lord has convicted you to do. There's nowhere in the Bible.

[A]

Do some weed farms on my way here. So I just want to make sure we're staying in touch with the culture.

[B]

Whatever the Lord is telling you to do. So it was. But you know what I'm saying, it wasn't. It wasn't some of these big things that were the hardest things. The hardest things that I'm learning right now is like loving your neighbor, outdoing one another in honor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Being hospitable. Like some, like just a pride. I'm realizing how prideful I am.

[A]

Like, who would you criticize, though? Like, think about it though. Like, like, if you're so busy working on all your flaws and stuff, like, how are you going to make time to make a tick tock about a preacher? You don't know. So we can't have you be doing that. We need you to get your eyes off of your side of the tracks and make sure that you have time to comment on other people's lives. That's what we need more of. So whatever you do, don't keep doing the hard work on you. That's going to lead to too much fruit. But perhaps people won't see some of that fruit. We're going to need you to overlook yourself and just start to focus on Beyonce because she needs more of our criticism. Or maybe focus on maybe a church down the road. You don't go to really let the world know how you feel about them because that's going to help. Don't work on yourself now as facetious as I'm being, that's a pretty accurate narrative and where we are. And it's so. It's a. When you really fall in love with doing work, you will not leave it because it is so awesome to be able to look at someone else's flaws and go, God bless you.

[B]

I like. Yeah.

[A]

If I ever get around to getting the time to address that, I'll let you know. But I am. I got grace for you because I gotta got. I got to handle this over here. I gotta. I gotta get to work. And maybe that's the essence of how our faith was designed. I have a lot of evidence I could point to that would lead me to believe it is. And then the pointing and the addressing of other people. There is a time and a place for it. But when it's done from a posture and a platform of proven work and grace, people want to hear you ten times more. So I often will tell maybe someone younger in the faith that's looking for wisdom. Like just if you're going to criticize someone openly and loudly, try to make sure you've got that area a, not just in check, but the areas around it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because for you to get off of your life onto what I'm doing wrong. Your premise is that you have it together. And I don't want to hear your weak, weak preamble about how. I'm not saying I got it all together, but. Nope. No, but that you don't have it all together. So when you do, maybe then we can talk about this big criticism of this other individual that you do not know. So. Yeah. I think there are a couple. There are a couple convenient letters from Jesus that we just really don't like to read a lot. Like the one about, you know, your. Your eyes being filled with your own log. That's such a vibrant, vivid example.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That people just kind of like, we'll move on. Let's get back to.

[B]

We use it when it's convenient.

[A]

Oh my gosh. Like, to me, that's. Yeah. So I'm with you. I'm. I'm busy renewing my mind.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And where it puts me as a Christian man is a totally different place.

[B]

Yeah. And you. And you have so much more like. And I'm. I'm still. I'm human. So there are things that I do get frustrated with. Right. There are things that I see that absolutely. I will probably be annoyed with and.

[A]

Maybe even demand something to be said about it. We're not saying that's off the table.

[B]

Yes. But I Think when again, when the totality of your content is addressing everything that everyone is doing wrong as well. And I really want to lean into that when it comes to Christian content creators.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because your job should be to equip people, not criticize people. The main substance of your content should be equipping. So I don't have to say, this person doing something wrong, that person doing something wrong, look what they did. And look what they did. I can say this is what Jesus says.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

This is what his Word says.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And hey, here's some practical ways I've found.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have found how to implement his word in this way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Equipping people, encouraging, empathizing, having compassion. Because I'm telling you, no lie, Carl. When I was on this porch and I like, I really encountered the Lord. I saw my mess, I saw me and he was still kind. So how can I have that type of experience and then walk away from that and be like, yo, yeah, you see what they did? And da da, da, da. And you and point out all the like, do you know what I'm saying?

[A]

I mean, you're saying it beautifully. And I even have to if employ the same logic with people that maybe we're referring to. I, I don't know the Christian critical content world as well as I'm being enlightened on this side of my journey, because I'm not.

[B]

That's disgusting.

[A]

I, I, from what I've seen, there's a lot of like to have kindness towards people like that, they're included. So if I'm going to say on this hand, I got to be kind. Even that guy, he doesn't know his own brokenness is showing through. So he's got a lot of verses and scriptures about how God's called him to be a where watchmen of what, brother?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

But those people, they deserve compassion and grace and it's just their life and light speaks so loudly.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So whenever people get really. And if there are you, you probably have incredible people who are part of your community here in totality. If you ever get super discouraged about the Christian landscape you see, remember you can have an impact on it in your own world right away. And sometimes that'll, that'll be used to. When I was a, you know, a pastor dealing with all different types of criticism, it always gave me hope to know I can, I can go make a difference in this. Like, so don't ever get, it's like the politics, if people are really, really sad about politics, it's like all Right. I get that. Whatever. Happy or sad. But you can always impact your world.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's the beauty of being a Christian. So you should never get too down down. Because it's like, I agree with you, the poisonous critical culture that I see. I know God's. God's in the midst of handling it. It's going to get handled and. But it's also a part of human nature.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just a lot easier to. And go back all the way to the beginning of our combo with heart motives. Those people don't think their motives are bad. They actually have convinced themselves their motives are good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm doing this because God's called me to do it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Okay. But. But. Gotcha. You can't talk to somebody like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You just gotta sit there and give them a thumbs up.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So, yeah. I think I am so interested in the other side of the tracks. There's so many people coming over there that's like, hey, does it feel right? Does it feel annoying? Does it feel stupid? Do you feel dumb over there?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

I've been there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's. Let's keep it moving. Let's just, let's work on. And that's a. Some of that is laced in addiction recovery essence. So, like, if you are an addict in recovery of any kind, they're going to teach you clean up your side of the tracks, then we'll address the other side of the tracks. You know what typically happens? You never get there.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

You don't get there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because like, I got a lot of stuff over here. I'm cleaning. And then how I felt about your tracks changes as I do my work. So it's a beautiful. Which is rooted in our Bible. It's a beautiful way to live.

[B]

Yeah. I think one thing that I've really been big on in the last couple of months, even maybe towards the end of last year, I felt like God was really big on. Like, what are the two. What did I say the two greatest commandments are.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Until you have perfected that, you don't get to bypass those because you're a prophet. Because you're a, you know, like you said, the watchman on the wall, you don't get to be. You don't get to bypass what I told you are the two greatest commandments. And everything should flow from there. I'm loving God with all of my heart, all of my soul, all of my mind, and I'm loving my neighbor. I like, I think we as Christians have to put things into Alignment is that that comes first. Loving God with all that you have. Right. Doing, like, loving him, which. What he says, if you love me, you'll follow my commands. Right. So do that. And then love people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I don't understand how we think we can bypass the two greatest commands because you have a special calling.

[A]

Yeah. They don't. They don't. And. And I think to me, the most attractive people on the planet are people who have a. A living relationship with Jesus.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I don't see a lot of that. And so when you do, it's like. Because there's something about a person that really. That's why it's a very funny disconnect to me when I see someone who professes to spend a lot of time with Jesus and they're terrible, they're mean to be around. It's like, man, I don't know who you're meeting with in that prayer closet, but I'm pretty sure it's not the author of kindness and love and power, because you are awful. And so that. That stuff is important for people to know that they're not crazy. If you see it. If you see someone and nothing about them resonates with something in your spirit, that's because it doesn't mean you need to change.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Maybe there's a different way to continue for all of us to change, but it doesn't include me professing to be saved.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

By a loving God. And then everything that comes out of my life is poisonous.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That make much sense.

[B]

Well, I mean, and it. Again, his word is clear.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The fruit of the spirit.

[A]

Pretty easy to see.

[B]

Criticism is not a fruit of the spirit.

[A]

No.

[B]

So if that's the only thing that's coming out of you, that's coming out of your content. Content, then it's like, yeah, I. I think it's fair to say that I can. I mean, it says you judge a tree by the fruit. That it. It's. I think it's pretty accurate to say that. Maybe. Maybe.

[A]

Yeah. Something to look at. And. And we live in a world where you can justify whatever you want to do. And the, the presence of numbers does not equate to fruit at all both ways. So when they, when people make that criticism about somebody, it's like. Yeah, well, there's a lot of people that resonate with criticism for a reason.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So there's a reason why that phrase run to the comments is actually a part of our culture. I hate that phrase.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Why, like, think about what you're Saying, I'm running to the comments. So I'm running to see the opinions of. Of other people on their opinion about somebody else's subjective view of someone none of us know. Running to the comments. It's very funny when it's funny. I do like those ones. Right. Comments. And it's funny. But in general, that vibe run into the comments. I'm running away. I. You cannot articulate how little I care about your. I can't. I wish there was a better English phrase I could come up with other than I cannot express.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How little comment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's not that you don't mean something, but your broken comment coming out of your broken spirit with your broken worldview. Please understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's something better for you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I've got a really beautiful, healthy personal boundary. Busy doing my own life, doing my own work over here. And. Yeah. So it still matters to me because I'm. I didn't just stop being a pastor, you know, because my life changed. So my heart always goes out to people that are doing their best, and there's a lot of people who can make a shift. I've lived portions of my Christian life just like that, by the way.

[B]

Yeah, super.

[A]

I mean, there is a trajectory you can trace if you've been to a ministry. Like, someone gets saved, and then they become the judge of all judges. It's like, hey, yeah, I'm ready to rock now. God. God can finally change the world because, yeah, he finally put me in the game. And then life hits you, and then you grow up, and then you go through some things. And that's why I always, like, have a. A nice smile. When I hear whether it's, you know, somebody in their early 20s talking about how to stay married a long time, it's like, that's so cute. God bless you. You're so sweet. That's such a sweet idea. Good for you. You know, it's just wisdom. Gives you tact sometimes as well about what to speak about, when to speak about it. That's where we live in. I'm not in that world, but I know you definitely have a foothold in the Christian sphere in this regard, and you're desperately needed. Like, I think there's. There's. Don't let it frustrate you to where you just can deal.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because that can happen, too, for people, and it's. It's not worth it. Like, you're. You're out shining some of that stuff, but it's gonna happen. It's part of culture. I mean, Jesus was dealing with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Our kids will be dealing with it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So hopefully we can deal with it better.

[B]

Yeah. I think I always try to encourage my, my community and like, the, the people who watch, like, take inventory of what you're looking at. Like, take in. To go on your. Go into your YouTube and look at the content that's coming up in your algorithm and it. And it will show you kind of where your heart is postured.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Are you attracted to that type of stuff?

[A]

That's a good one.

[B]

Is that what you want? Like that? Because it, it tells you a lot about you.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I think a lot of times we, we can like, like, we can. You know, maybe we're not engaging with it in the sense of I'm not commenting or I'm not creating it, but you're watching it and you watching it is feeding it. You're feeding the monster.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I think we need to be mindful of the, the content that we're taking and be mindful to take inventory of that. You know what I mean?

[A]

It's well said. It took me a while on this side of my journey to get to heal enough to be able to see my propensity to do that. And I mean, it took me. I. I used to. My therapist called it Pain Shop, you know, where I would look for stuff knowing it was going to be bad.

[B]

Knowing it was going to look at stuff about you.

[A]

Sure. Yeah. I think there's something in us where it's almost like a fake test that nobody's ever asked you to take. And I realized, man, I'm. I'm. I got so much work to do because I wish this didn't bug me, but it bothers me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I had to just go right back to the lab and as I said on this couch, you know, today I could say, you know, like, that's definitely. I've. I've gotten new. Gotten in new stages of health when it comes to that stuff. And it's just something to always check. It's like, do I. Like, I don't. I don't have enough time. I'm not where I want to be yet. As a man, for me to spend the time I do have listening to other people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Live opinions, it's just ridiculous. And for your community to know. Both of us probably know some pretty successful people as they do. I've known some ones that are really successful in certain areas. And you know what they don't do? They don't stay connected to the to the. The currency of the culture.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Like, I wish I could find a billionaire that was always on Instagram watching conspiracy videos and fighting with people online. They don't exist. Yeah, there's something to that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I. Sometimes I'll tell myself that, like, would a smart person be spending the hour doing what I'm doing? I don't think so. And I'm a smart person, so I don't. I don't do dumb things.

[B]

I think that's a great, great, great tool to give people is. Ask yourself, is this beneficial? Is this beneficial?

[A]

And if you have to do gymnastics to prove what you think, well, it is beneficial because the Bible says that we have to be. You're already. You're already leaning way too hard on. You're reaching.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

Answer the question. Do you think it's beneficial?

[B]

Yep.

[A]

No.

[B]

No.

[A]

There we go.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

We can all use the Bible to make our lives look how we want our lives to look. That's everybody's choice. Or we can use the Bible to transform what we see to look like it. And there's a big nuanced difference there.

[B]

Yeah. I want to ask you a few things that were on my heart because I was just curious, because your life is just how you've navigated through the last couple years. It's just very. I don't know, it's just fascinating to me because the courage that it takes and the courage that it has taken you and Laura, like, I look at your videos and I'm just like, the only thing. I'm just like, you guys are so courageous.

[A]

Thank you for saying that.

[B]

Like, Laura is.

[A]

She is. I think she's. She's courageous. I think there's been. It's taken some courage on my part in certain places, but when it comes to courage, like Laura. Yeah. She just. She's not. She's not cut from the same cloth. Like, she's just a different human. And, yeah, I think it's been. It's been a journey for both of us in so many ways. My kids have been courageous. I think, for sure, it's more. Yeah. There's definitely parts I've had to accept from people. I love that I've made some courageous decisions. For me, my head's been so focused on rewiring that it's almost like if you were to walk into the middle of a war and do something good and then kept going and got a medal for it. That's how I feel when someone says, hey, thank you for being courageous, because it's like, well, maybe I appreciate it. I'll receive it. I'm just trying to do what's right.

[B]

Is it hard for you to take compliments?

[A]

Not anymore. It was before because I had some stuff that was broken.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Not just hard. I hated it. I hated my birthday. I hated stuff that was, like, supposed to be centered around me. Whether it was, like, I remember, like, forbidding my staff to ever. We're not. We don't do Pastor Appreciation Day, although I think it's annoying. But the point is, like, there's. Because I knew I had things in me that were raging against who I wanted to be who I said I was forever. And it went all the way back to way before I was a preacher. As a teenager, I had this dichotomy going on, so. Yeah. But I'm much more able to sit there if someone says something kind to me and say, thank you you received, rather than like, well, you know, my. One of my Christian pet peeves. If I say to somebody, you did awesome, they're like, hey, oh, God. I'm always like, oh, I didn't say it was perfect. I said it was awesome. Don't you bring God into your horrible humanness. It's all God. It wasn't all God because there's a lot of you in it, and it sucked. The part that you played in, it was great. Well done. Can you just say thank you?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because you're not. The fake humble thing ain't working. Nobody's buying. It's all God. It's not all God. God.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He chose to use your broken life. So feel free to say thank you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Public service announcement. To those that are bad with receiving credit. Stop. Stop throwing shade on God by putting it's all God. God did all this. No, he did not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

He chose you to bring something through you to prove he's awesome.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But if it was all him, he wouldn't have even used you. Definitely wouldn't have used me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Need to use us.

[B]

Yeah. You know, at all. I think that's. I think that that's the thing that people need to know. I know that the Lord has exposed a lot of f. Humility in me by exposing a lot of my pride, and it's exposed a lot of the false humility that I've had. And so I think. Yeah, I think people need to. To. I need. I think people really need a, like, true lesson in what true humility really is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know what I mean?

[A]

Yeah. Humility is strong, man. We miss that. So humble people are really strong. In fact. Fact, really humble people can get the rap that they're not humble, because people who are fake humble, they don't recognize it. So if someone's like, hey, great job. Work my butt off. And so it is awesome. That guy's proud. Because if they asked me, I would have gave glory to God. Well, that's why nobody's asking you, because you're not doing anything great. Because you do dumb things like that. Right. Humility's strong. It's the strongest. It. It's a trait that you cannot miss when you're around someone who's humble. It's like, oh, I want to be around you more. Like, if you were to talk to. I know some great basketball players, and the guys who are humble, they don't discount the work they put in.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Hey, man, nobody can stop you. Nope. Nobody. Just grateful to be here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Perfect answer. Well, I don't know. Like, confidence is from heaven. There's something to be said about a man or woman that's confident. And also, one of the things I always loved about Laura, her most attractive trait is her confidence. Like, she was just a. Like, she's always just so confident, and I was just like, oh, I must know you for. For life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It was never based on the status, the clothes, the whatever, like, people will strive to get. She was just Always had That came from her dad and her mom to a degree. But, yeah, I think fake humility. Have you a quick pride flip? I was taught was, you know, what's. What's pride always hiding?

[B]

What's pride always hiding? Truth about yourself.

[A]

It could be said that or insecurity. Pride always hides insecurity. So if I'm ever feeling haughty or proud about something, I know. I've trained my brain to now know. Oh, you're actually really scared of something. Hey, my voice matters because I. Oh, my gosh. I don't. I don't think my voice matters because if I did, I wouldn't be doing that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's like the girl comes home, like, man, I got. Got seven modeling contracts offered to me just walking down the mall. Did you? Yeah, probably four. Because if it was seven, it's like, you know. Right. Do you just need me to tell you you're beautiful? Just say that.

[B]

Yeah. Practice that. Because. Because what. What I'm learning is, is that. That to be kind to myself.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that. Yes, there are some areas in pride, but really what you have is a vulnerability issue.

[A]

Correct.

[B]

You don't know how to be Vulnerable.

[A]

You could interchange.

[B]

Do you know what I'm saying? It's not to say that you don't have some PR that the Lord needs to purge out of you, but there also. There needs. There is some. Some vulnerability that he wants to instill in you. To be vulnerable, right? To be able to say, like, man, I actually. I need some. I need some affirmation today. I need some. And, like, I'm not even going to hold you. I had this conversation with my mom the other day because my mom was this really intense woman. She's from Mississippi. Very intense woman. And we were having this conversation, and we get into it. We get into it hard. And me and my mom, like, we were at a cookout the other day, me and Jay and Jordan, and we get into this, like, intense conversation about, like, who's a better performer, Beyonce or Chris Brown. And it became like, this big thing.

[A]

What did they say, Carl?

[B]

We can have that conversation off my.

[A]

What side were you on? Just. Just throw it out there. I'm not going to judge either way. I just want to know. Well, I just want to know who I'm on couch with. Who's a better performer, Chris Brown or Beyonce? I just want to know.

[B]

I said Chris Brown.

[A]

I shall remain on the couch.

[B]

Okay, so you agree you didn't get off the couch.

[A]

Okay, do I agree? I don't. It. Yes.

[B]

Okay. Thank you.

[A]

I mean, period.

[B]

What are we talking about? Remove the stain and he's a legend.

[A]

No. Even thinking about someone debating that makes me upset.

[B]

Okay, so that's where I'm at, right?

[A]

Like.

[B]

Like, I'm arguing.

[A]

You're talking about production and bells and whistles and, like, I'm gonna have a flying unicorn come down. That I'm on. That's a different conversation. We're talking about entertaining people.

[B]

We're talking about if I put on.

[A]

A song right now, who's gonna dance better? Like, okay. Yeah. It's just an interesting conversation I would like to hear.

[B]

And these are the things that I genuinely, genuinely love arguing.

[A]

To those people, I would say deuces.

[B]

Bye, Bye, Tata. Scram.

[A]

Run it somewhere else.

[B]

Thank you. Love the pun. Thank you. So, anyway, naturally, I just, like. I'm a very passionate person. And if you. If I'm on a topic that I'm passionate about, it may seem like I'm mad, but I'm not. I'm just very passionate about what I'm talking about. So, anyway, me and my mom are like, that. We don't hold back with each other. We go and and so we're adding, like, we're going right? And I'm just like, sometimes I just need you to just affirm me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And. And that's what I. It's like, that's what I needed. I just needed you to hear me. And I think. And I think what I'm learning is that because I'm not leaning into vulnerability, I'm giving access to pride. And so by leaning into the vulnerability, because pride wants me to not tell you I'm vulnerable, pride wants me to tell you that I don't need you. I'm secure. I don't need you to validate me. I don't. Yes. And we. All of our validation should come from the Lord. Yes, all of that. But the Lord still uses people. And I. Sometimes it's like, all of our validation.

[A]

Should come from the Lord.

[B]

You. But you know how that's a thing.

[A]

It's stuff like that that people say, I'm going to. Created you to need validation from somebody else too. It's okay.

[B]

That's okay. And I think I'm like learning how to lean into the vulnerability, to be like, hey, right now I just need you to sit with me. Or right now I don't need you to tell me. I don't need you to, you know, try to fix it. Or I need you. Actually, I need you to. To tell me. Making you tripping. Like, just be vulnerable and lean. And I think that that could help us eliminate access to pride. If we were leaning into vulnerability more, it would.

[A]

And I would say that you can have a huge hand in helping other people stay there. That's the only way I know how to live now. Like, I can't even be around people by choice. I gotta be around people that are not my choice. And I'll do that with kindness. But like, to look at somebody who, to be honest, to tell a friend, like, hey, I need you to. I need you to text me 30 times this week. Because I just. I just. I'm feeling a little bit shaky. Okay, cool. Rather than passive aggressively.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, our world doesn't get that.

[B]

That.

[A]

But to go to something actually way deeper and more important. Go back to Chris Brown for a second. Okay. To make this confidence link. Do you know how confident this guy is? One time I played a basketball game with Chris Brown one time, and we had three pros on our team and Chris Brown, do you know who shot the ball the most?

[B]

I'm sure it was him.

[A]

Chris Brown. Two pros left. Like, I'm not playing with this Guy. And I thought it was so awesome that Chris Brown so confident that on a team with real pros, he still felt like he needed to shoot the ball too.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[A]

That's who we're talking about.

[B]

That's why I picked him.

[A]

Anyway, back to what we were saying.

[B]

Yeah. I just. I. I think so. I want to ask you because when you were going through all the stuff that you were going through, you. You mentioned it. You're like, man, I've had brokenness in me since I was a teenager. This didn't start at Hillsong in New York. I've been. Had that in me. So if you. What would life have looked like if you leaned more into vulnerability when you. You know what I'm saying, Instead of leaning into maybe pride or maybe just insecure, whatever that might have led you to more bad decisions? Like, what would that have looked like if you would have leaned into vulnerability? And how can we. How can we help other people, do you know what I'm saying, Who might be in a situation where they are maybe aware of some of that brokenness.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But don't know how to be vulnerable, to say, hey, you know what? I'm. Like you said, I'm feeling a little shaky. This. This girl keep texting me. This dude keeps texting me. And I wanna. Yeah. Or you know what I'm saying? Like, how can we lean into vulnerability to keep us.

[A]

That's a great question. It's a hard one to answer because I don't. We live in such different times where, you know, my. My sexual abuse was when I was a little guy, so we had no idea what to even. Like, I didn't even acknowledge it till I was mid 20s. And even then, I brushed it off. The only. Only the first time I ever thought about that abuse was when I was praying for hundreds of people that I had an inkling to pray for who were dealing with abuse that they couldn't articulate. And as I was praying for somebody.

[B]

You were reminded about what.

[A]

Oh, my gosh. I ran home.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Told Laura, called my mom the next day.

[B]

So Laura didn't even know your mom? Didn't know. No one.

[A]

I had never thought about it till that day. And so even then, how I handled it, I minimized it and lied about it even to. Because I was, now, I know, trying to protect my mom's feelings, which isn't. It's just part of what you learn.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So the common question is, what would you do differently? And I always go, I. I've been trained and, and mended too well to even ask myself that. So now I can answer it a different way and just say if I, if I knew what I know now, which is to share the hardest, deepest, dark, darkest parts of you in a safe place, is the most freeing, powerful thing anybody could ever do. I would just spend the rest of my life telling people that. So that's what I'm doing. Because I cannot change what happened.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I know what happened. I know that. You know, even the, the, our life's work as we knew it in New York, I put on the, the, the judgment chopping block. Those are consequences to my actions. So I know what kind of church we had, I know what kind of people we were. But all the stuff that had opened up and all the opinions and narrative isn't me. That, that's all me ultimately. Because that's what you do when you lie and you bury things and you build on buried things, creates faulty, not just a foundation, but faulty floors. And so I think when I, when I talk to people who are sitting on something, I just say, what if it, what if the greatest thing you could ever do would be to tell somebody about that? Just consider it. What if you sitting across from somebody and sharing that most embarrassing thing could be the most explosively freedom producing thing you could ever do?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

What might happen to your life.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you can just get people to sit there long enough. Man, I, I, I'm not gonna say I'm a hundred for a hundred, but pretty close.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because it, it's just true. Like the biggest lie in the world from the crafter of all lies is keep that thing hidden.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

It almost killed me. It didn't almost destroy my life. It did not.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because my life's better than it's ever been.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

My, my marriage is better. My soul is better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But that pain and that pain, there's a different route around that. And I buried stuff. And you lie to yourself first, you lie to yourself second, then you start lying to the people you love. But God's so gracious, Megan. If I told you the stories of how many times God tried to lovingly get me off the road, we would have to do a whole other pot. I can, I can give you example after example of times where I felt like God's loving kindness of just revelatory moments ago. I gotta get some, some freaking help. But if I do this, that'll happen. This will happen. And it wasn't the big stuff. It was a little. If I told somebody about this depression Ah, Boom. And then the. So the depression stays.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You build. If I told somebody about the anxiety and if I told somebody about my. This sexual desire that I keep having, and then you don't. Boom, boom, boom. Before you know it. How did you get here?

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

I'll tell you how you got there.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're building on buried things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think the beauty of our faith that we share is that we serve a God whose mercies are new every morning.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

There's power in truth.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When the lights come on, man, you get to see it all.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I. I used to make the joke in New York, and it was always a good one because people got it. But I said, you know, it's one thing to dance with somebody, but when the club lights come on.

[B]

Yep.

[A]

You get to see who you were dancing with for the past three hours. And if you hate that decision.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Always time to run. That's how truth in our own lives can be. Turn the lights on. If it's ugly, if it's not where you wanted to be, feel free to, you know, navigate differently.

[B]

Yeah. Pivot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I think, like, one thing my mom used to always just tell me is that my mom would be like, you know, Megan, the enemy cannot torture you in shame with what you expose. And I think that people have to know that the reason why, like, the enemy just loves shame. That's. That's like his playground. He wants to keep you in shame and hiding keeps you in shame. Don't. Don't tell nobody that, because they're gonna think of you differently.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You might lose your position. You might lose their respect. You may not be. And it goes back to Genesis 3. Did God really say it's always these suggestive. Did he really say.

[A]

Yeah, it's a fragment of misinformation.

[B]

Yeah. And I. And I'm like, I. I think I know for me, personally, there's so much that I've had to be free from because I hate my sin like, I hate it. And I'm learning how to hold a healthy grief for my sin, but also not live in shame, because I do think that you can hold a healthy grief of your sin because it keeps you from falling into the same traps, because you know that a good and perfect and holy God, reverence even works there. Yeah.

[A]

Like, people ask me about my situation. I say I actually hold it with reverence. Like, I will never. Don't mistake my joy of. Of God breathing new life on my family as a lack of understanding about the pain that My decisions caused my family and people that I love dearly and. And the beautiful, magnificent platform God gave me. I understand.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But I serve a God that's so, so awesome. That I can hold.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That there's no. There's no sugar coating that. No. All of our lives are like this. Like you, if you are watching this and don't have a chapter that doesn't have pain in it, you don't have a chapter that has growth in it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So. But that one, for me, I hold it with reverence. I will never forget it. I see people all the time, talk to them all the time that are either part of our church or broader whatever ministry and. And depending on how they are, that's how I am.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

There are people who need to cry, people who need to talk. There's people who just need to tell me to, you know, the pride, whatever it is. But that's the discarding of something that's been so, you know, big in other people's lives. You'll never. You'll never see that in me.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. No, I think that, you know, it's really true with. With our brains. The part of our brains that hold grief and gratitude is the same place.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think we have to learn that they don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[A]

No.

[B]

Is that you can hold grief and you can hold gratitude all at the same time. And you don't have to live in one space fully or one space, you know, like separately. Like, you can. You can hold tension.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

With both.

[A]

And totality might work there.

[B]

I like what you did there. Yeah. I could talk to you all day, but I wanted to. You got to get out of here. And I wanted to ask you if you coming just in full circle where you are now. You know, I remember when I first saw Carl Lentz and you were preaching and I would watch your messages all the time and I was just like, man, this dude, like, loves God so much. He's like so passionate about God and his word. But I'm interested in like, where you. Where you would describe kind of where you are now with God. Like, what's. What does that relationship with him look like now on this side of life?

[A]

Peaceful. Yeah, it's peaceful and it's powerful. If you live with trauma and you live with deceit of any degree, you start to actually think that peace means something's wrong. It's so foreign to you. I was told, Carl, you're gonna have to relearn that chaos is actually not a part of Your default. My therapist actually said, I want you to imagine yourself sitting in a forest, and there's a clearing around you, and then it's all for. So there's a clearing in the middle of a forest, and your job is to not run into those trees and just sit there. And that is a mental picture of how I've learned how to live my life. And I think this. This part of my life with Jesus, now, I'm grateful. I'm really. I'm really he. You. We were talking a little while ago about, you know, grace is given, you getting something that you did not deserve. Mercy is God withholding what you do. So I think sometimes I feel my. My biggest emotional pull sometimes is to be cognizant of the mercy God has shown me and shows me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I don't. You know, it would have been fair for me to. Really me. It's so funny when people talk about what I lost. I said, you're you, so don't get it, actually. Everything that matters is still here.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I have my right mind. I'm gonna go home to my family.

[B]

So talk about that. You have your right.

[A]

Understand loss. Like, there's. There's some. There's some hard things that I did lose, for sure. But the mercy that God has showed me, like, that's why I did a podcast. That's why we're even doing anything in public. We don't need any of this. Like, we don't. It's. It's just cool to be able to let other people know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

God's mercy is available for you. Like, if I gotta come back out and pop out and wave at people and just say, hey, like, if you need me to stand here, to let you stand here because you've been through some stuff that you want to feel shameful about, I'll do that. That's easy. So here I am. My head's not down. My. Yeah, I humiliated my family. I did that. I no longer do that. That's not who I am. But that happened. Here I am. What about you? Why? What. What part of your life is weighing you down? There's no reason to let that happen to you. So, yeah, I sit here today extremely grateful to be connected to God like I am, and grateful that I get to walk with Jesus. And I'm growing, you know, I'm not. I'm not. I hope I'm growing, you know, to the point where the next time we talk, we'll both laugh about things that are different and changing, you know, and that's the goal. So I'm. I'm super proud of who you are and what you're doing and the stands you're making. And it's just cool. You represent to me a fresh face, a fresh wave of what God is going to do more of. Because that heavy hand of religion doesn't hold weight. God's kindness is the heavyweight.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And kindness is what leads people to true transformation. And so I'm grateful. That's a long answer, but it's Chris Brown. That's. That's what I wanted to say.

[B]

What is wrong with you, man? What?

[A]

Just gotta keep it real. My brain compartmentalizes and it's hurt me in the past. It helps me sometimes to now.

[B]

At the end of the day, it's Chris Brown. Okay.

[A]

What are we talking about?

[B]

Period. I. I'm so grateful for you. I really am. I. I'm. I'm grateful for your transparency, your vulnerability. You know, you didn't have to come back out. You didn't have to use the most hurtful, broken stuff to glorify the Lord and to. To help his people. You didn't have to. And so. Yeah, I'm just. I'm honored that you came to. To sit on my couch and to talk.

[A]

Let me tell you, I feel compelled to say this because of what you just said. If you don't use your worst stuff, somebody else will. So there's no. It's not about. It's. It. It's not. It's on the table to be used. So either somebody else or the devil or you're. So I realized that, and I was like, I'm gonna use it. This better me than you. So if I can't hide the worst and the most painful, I don't want my trauma to use it. I don't want some bozo critic to use it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So that leaves me in control of what I do with my story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So be it. This is what I'm gonna do with the worst.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'm not gonna hide any of it. There you go. And so maybe that's for somebody who needs to know the powers in. In your ownership of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Unless somebody else writes your narrative about the worst part of your life. Somebody else manipulate that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah. That's good. That's good. Okay, so I do a thing with my audience journal prompts.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Do you journal?

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Do you love it?

[A]

Love it.

[B]

Okay. It's been like. It's. It's the most helpful thing for sure. I. I love journaling. And so I'VE been doing it literally probably most of my life.

[A]

If someone doesn't journal, I judge them immediately.

[B]

So what would be a good journal prompt after this episode? Maybe something that has helped you? I'm. I. I like journal prompts because I think sometimes journaling, if it's not your thing, can be very intimidating. Or sometimes maybe when you just don't know how to start. I think a journal prompt just helps. And so weekly on in totality, I like to give people journal prompts to kind of just help them, maybe like, dissect what they. What they learned. I don't want people just to watch an episode. It's like, all right, now I'm going back to the criticism videos. It's like no process. What is God saying to you? What is he maybe challenging you to do? Or maybe encouraging, urging you to do? So, what would be like a good journal prompt for someone?

[A]

What might I be hiding and why? Just have to think about it. Kick it around a little bit.

[B]

You said I'm going straight for the jacket.

[A]

I love it. It's so fun. Like, I'll do that when I get to the airport later. I'm sorry, what. What today might I be hiding and why immediately something comes up, I can. I'm just going to share with. With Lord. We had an interaction earlier that was a little bit too tense. It's because I needed to say this particular thing is stressing me out. Boom. Freedom. Now it's an opportunity. So if what you're hiding is really a bridge to something better, I don't know, there might be something there to. To think about. So what might I be hiding? Maybe it's a dream. That's beautiful. Tell somebody. Maybe it's a. Maybe it's a piece of shame. Tell somebody. But what might I be hiding Is a very powerful question.

[B]

That's good. Yeah, that's good. Thank you for being here. Will you come back?

[A]

For sure.

[B]

Hopefully by this time I'll be out. I would move. No, by the next time you come. I have to get closer to the city. It's too far.

[A]

I'm gonna stop and get some moonshine on the way out. You kidding me? Came all this way. I'm not gonna leave with some moonshine.

[B]

I don't live that far out in the country, y'all. It is far. I appreciate you. I love you. I want to come visit you guys and meet Laura.

[A]

They're ready.

[B]

And make sure you give them my gifts.

[A]

Got you.

[B]

And you guys, listen, make sure you check out Carl and Laura. Have an amazing podcast called Lights On. Make sure you check it out. Go look at it on YouTube. Wherever it's streaming at, just make sure you go check it out. They're sharing some really vulnerable and but powerful things that can help you even where you are, in what season you are in your life or I just really appreciate their vulnerability and transparency. So make sure you check them out. And make sure that you check out next week's episode here on Into Tality. I'll see you next week. What's up you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow Into Tality podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow Into Tality on Apple Podcasts or Spotify and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.