EP 72: God Always Heals

Summary

Podcast Summary: In Totality with Megan Ashley – Episode 72: God Always Heals

Host: Megan Ashley
Guest: Brenna Bland
Release Date: May 27, 2025

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Introduction to Brenna Bland

In Episode 72 of In Totality, host Megan Ashley welcomes Brenna Bland, a passionate Christian wife, mother, and author. Brenna shares her compelling journey of faith, vulnerability, and overcoming profound personal challenges. The episode delves deep into themes of suffering, healing, discipleship, and maintaining faith amidst life's adversities.

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Brenna’s Early Faith Journey and Challenging Experiences (00:00 – 25:00)

Brenna begins by reflecting on her upbringing in a deeply Christian household. Contrary to typical assumptions of a legalistic environment, she describes her parents' approach as one of orthopraxy—a practice of living out their theological beliefs authentically. This environment allowed Brenna the freedom to express herself, such as participating in activities like trick-or-treating and experimenting with her appearance (17:00).

However, Brenna's faith was profoundly shaken during key moments of her childhood. At ten years old, she endured multiple traumas: her parents' separation due to her father's affair, her grandmother's battle with breast cancer, and a deeply traumatic experience of being molested by her basketball coach. These events led Brenna to question her faith, culminating in a crisis where she felt abandoned by God (24:00).

Notable Quote:

“God always heals.” (57:30)

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Navigating Faith Amidst Suffering (25:00 – 50:00)

Brenna discusses the impact of her traumatic experiences on her theology. She emphasizes that suffering does not negate God's presence or love. Instead, it transforms one's understanding and relationship with God. Brenna highlights how biblical narratives, such as the Psalms and Paul's letters, reflect deep suffering and God's faithful response, providing a framework for believers to understand and endure their own trials (30:35).

Megan resonates with Brenna's experiences, relating them to her own struggles with motherhood and mental health. She underscores the importance of discipleship—not just for adults but starting from a young age—to equip believers to handle life's challenges with compassion and truth (39:56).

Notable Quotes:

• Brenna Bland: “The faithfulness of God to always respond to our immaturity with maturity.” (04:35)
• Megan Ashley: “Love isn't just a feeling; it's about being patient with my kids even when I don’t feel like it.” (05:26)

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Theology of Healing and Suffering (50:00 – 75:00)

A significant portion of the conversation centers on the concept that "God always heals." Brenna challenges the common misconception associated with the "Word of Faith" or "Prosperity Gospel," clarifying that healing is not limited to physical restoration but encompasses spiritual and emotional healing as well. She emphasizes that true healing aligns with God's redemptive purposes, which may include transforming individuals through their suffering rather than removing it entirely (57:30).

Brenna shares her realization that Christ’s ultimate suffering—His separation from the Father—serves as a profound example of enduring pain alongside humanity. This realization fosters a deeper understanding that believers are never alone in their suffering; Jesus walks with them through every trial (58:46).

Notable Quote:

“This will not last long.” (59:37)

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Discipleship and Community Support (75:00 – 100:00)

Megan and Brenna explore the vital role of discipleship and community in supporting individuals through their struggles. They argue that discipleship should begin early and be an integral part of childhood faith formation, rather than a secondary focus during adulthood or marriage. Brenna advocates for "micro-practices" in discipleship—small, consistent actions like daily prayer and scripture reading—that build a strong foundation of faith and resilience (40:31).

The conversation also addresses the intersection of mental health and faith. Brenna debunks the notion that Christians should ignore mental health issues, advocating instead for a holistic approach that includes spiritual, emotional, and professional support. She underscores the importance of seeking medical help, such as therapy or medication, as a common grace provided by God (85:00).

Notable Quotes:

• Brenna Bland: “Healthy discipleship involves other people and involves accountability.” (40:32)
• Megan Ashley: “Our hearts are deceitful; we need people to help us see what we're missing.” (43:11)

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Brenna’s Book and Sharing Vulnerability (100:00 – 125:00)

Brenna discusses her book, which offers an authentic portrayal of her struggles with faith, mental health, and personal trauma. She reveals that the book aims to provide visibility and hope for those who feel unseen or misunderstood within the Christian community. The positive reception—highlighted by readers expressing that they felt seen for the first time—validated Brenna’s mission to support others through their suffering (60:30).

She emphasizes that God's character is revealed not in moments of comfort but in how He sustains and empathizes with believers during their darkest times. Brenna urges Christians to embrace their own brokenness and rely on God's strength, fostering a community of mutual support and discipleship (65:00).

Notable Quote:

“God doesn't cause suffering, but He chooses to use it.” (59:55)

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Practical Steps for Embracing Suffering and Discipleship (125:00 – End)

As the conversation concludes, Brenna offers practical advice for believers navigating suffering:

1. Engage Deeply with Scripture: Study biblical narratives to understand how God interacts with His people through suffering.
2. Seek Community and Discipleship: Build relationships where individuals can share their struggles and support one another.
3. Embrace God's Presence in Pain: Recognize that God's peace and presence are constant, even amidst intense suffering.
4. Utilize Professional Help: Accept that seeking therapy or medication is a valid and God-given resource for mental health challenges.

Megan encourages listeners to journal their experiences and reflect on how God has been present in their past sufferings, fostering a deeper connection and trust in His faithfulness.

Notable Quote:

“God is with you in your suffering. He weeps with you and sustains you.” (74:49)

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

Episode 72 of In Totality with Megan Ashley offers a profound exploration of the complexities of faith amidst suffering. Brenna Bland’s candid sharing serves as a beacon of hope, illustrating that God's healing is multifaceted and that discipleship and community support are essential for navigating life's darkest moments. The episode challenges believers to rethink simplistic notions of faith, encouraging a deeper, more resilient relationship with God that embraces both joy and pain.

Final Quote:

“Joyfully remembering that I can lament it, I can grieve it. God is with me in it. And he will use it.” (72:35)

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Journal Prompt:

Lord, show me how you have been with me in past suffering. Highlight ways that I've missed or overlooked how you've kept me. Help me recognize your faithfulness and understand your character through my experiences.

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Prayer:

Lord, thank You for partnering with us through technology to reach those who are suffering. May those who hear this episode feel Your presence and know that You are grieved by their pain. Teach us to submit to You fully, so that we may grow in faithfulness and better support one another. Grant us grace, peace, kindness, and self-control as we navigate our journeys. Amen.

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Closing Remarks:

Megan Ashley expresses heartfelt gratitude to Brenna Bland for her vulnerability and honesty, underscoring the importance of sharing real-life struggles to foster a supportive and understanding Christian community. She invites listeners to connect on various platforms and emphasizes the need for ongoing discipleship and mutual support.

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Listen to Episode 72: God Always Heals

For more insights and encouragement, follow In Totality with Megan Ashley on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. Subscribe and turn on notifications to stay updated with each new episode.

Transcript

[Brenna Bland]

Foreign.

[Megan Ashley]

What's up, you guys?

[Unknown Host]

Welcome back to another episode. I am so excited for my guest today. She is a lover of Christ, she is a wife, she's mom, and she is an author of a book that completely wrecked me just a couple days ago as I was reading it on the plane. And I'm so excited to have a timely conversation with Brenna Bland.

[Brenna Bland]

Hey.

[Unknown Host]

Hey, girl.

[Brenna Bland]

I feel like this is, this is crazy being here. It's an absolute dream and it's one of those things when you're like, everyone told me life with Christ is hard, but no one all, no one told me how fun life with Christ also is.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

So I'm just like overjoyed to be here today.

[Unknown Host]

This is one of the, this is one of the fun days, like when I get to talk to somebody that I'm excited to talk about. I'm excited to all my guests. But like, you were somebody I was like really, really excited to talk about. So I've been anticipating this day for some. Some time. And I'm so happy you're here. Like, I'm so happy you're here.

[Brenna Bland]

That's kind. That means a lot.

[Unknown Host]

I'm so excited. How are you doing today? How do you feel?

[Brenna Bland]

I feel good for the lack of sleep I got. I feel really good. I'm. I'm just. I'm curious about what God wants to do.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

In this space.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And humbled that he would just always humble that God's like, you can join in what I'm doing. I would like you to join in what I'm doing. I think that's insane.

[Unknown Host]

I think that's always mind blowing.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Especially when you know who he is and he wants you to like partner with him and you're like, me?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. It's like that meme when there's like the really good looking. This is so weird. The really good looking spider man and then the like kind of crusty looking spider man and then the dude with the bag over his head and it's like, usually it's like Christ. Paul. Me.

[Unknown Host]

Me? Yeah. I'm the, I'm the, the jacked up guy.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

With the bag on the head.

[Megan Ashley]

So you are a.

[Unknown Host]

You are a wife and a mommy and we were just talking about being a boy mom. How do you love motherhood? It's because your boys are still young, right?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. Yeah. So to be honest, a year ago I was in the place where I was only ever happy when I was on the road and I knew that was an issue and I think at the time I was like, it's an issue because I want to be happy more than that. And then I feel like the Lord very graciously said it's also actually an issue because I gave you these kits and you are their first lens to the character of me. Right.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Brenna Bland]

Like when we say, hey, this is who God is and also this is how he changes hearts and then they witness you have an unchanged heart, those are some pretty damning implications right on their life. And so I think the Lord very graciously shifted a lot of things in my life and asked me to. I feel like he led me to step into some like, pretty specific and particular practices that has helped me. And one of them is that I leave the house every day on foot with my three year old and we go on an eight mile walk.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, I love that. And eight miles for a three year old is.

[Brenna Bland]

Well, he doesn't walk.

[Unknown Host]

I was okay.

[Megan Ashley]

Because I have an.

[Unknown Host]

11 year old that feels like he can't walk five feet. I'm like, he's like tired.

[Brenna Bland]

Really? Seriously. But I put him in there and I found myself. While I love doing this and why I love teaching, I think I've finally gotten to the place where I'm like, I'm most joy filled and like relaxed when I get to be home with my kids.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so I mean all that to say, like the way that your kids disciple you.

[Unknown Host]

For sure.

[Brenna Bland]

Right? For sure.

[Unknown Host]

I was just going to ask you that, like, what, what in God's character have you learned now from being a mom that you didn't know before?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. The faithfulness of God to always respond to our immaturity with maturity. I remember one day saying to my husband Austin, the hardest part of being a mom is responding to immature people who are supposed to be immature because they're three and six. With maturity and with grace and with kindness and peace and patience and love, you know, all the things.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And then going, oh, but doesn't the Lord do this for me every day? And not only is it like for me at times it feels like a chore as it all. As it does for every parent.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

But how the Lord is like, it never feels like a chore for me.

[Unknown Host]

Because I love you and his love is perfect.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah. It's crazy. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I've learned. I feel like with. And just so like, y' all know, we just start conversations. I don't really do warmups. I'm like, we're going right there. But what I've. What I Feel like I've learned about love with my kids. It's like I have the ability to actually love because love isn't just like this feeling. Like I feel like loving, I feel like being patient. I don't feel like being patient with my kids, but I love them. So I'm patient with my kids. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I don't always, like, sometimes they do things and I still have, like you said, have to respond with maturity and be kind. That doesn't. Maybe I don't always want to, I don't feel like it, but I love them. So I practice, you know what I'm saying? So it's like, so I look at my kids, I'm like, oh, I actually do have the ability because I like, I do that with my kids. That means I have the power to do that with other people. You know what I mean? And so it's taught me like, oh, you actually have the ability to love. There are situations where you choose not to. And now I'm showing you that you can choose to love because you do that with your kids. You know, they throw up on you and you're like, no worries.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, I'm not going to toss you across the room.

[Unknown Host]

Correct.

[Brenna Bland]

Like my body tells me to do.

[Unknown Host]

Correct. But you, you just clean them up and you love them and you, and you sacrifice time and sleep and things for them. And so it just shows me like I actually have the power, especially through the Holy Spirit to love people. And that's like probably the biggest thing that I've learned being a mom over these 15 years, which is crazy. Have a 15 year old who is, I told you, is as tall as you almost and just a manly voice. And I told you wait until your, wait till your three year old and your six year old, they get about 13 or 14 and you're going to hear this crack in their voice. And I'm telling you it is devastating. I literally cannot deal with it. What, in their character of your kids, what have they shown you? Because what I'm learning right now is that Satan is after my children. And I think that I thought that it would start like when they graduated from like maybe high school. Maybe it'll start in high school. Like that's when we got to get vigilant about their faith. But it was during this time of fasting with our church that the Lord impressed on my heart. Like I sense really strongly that he was like, take your salvation seriously. There was a, there were three days in particular that I felt Led to go in each of my kids room and pray. And I felt like each time I sense him like, and take their salvation serious. And I'm learning now because I have a 15 year old, he's almost 15, and I'm learning that, oh, well, Satan was after you. Well before I was aware that he was after you. And there are certain characteristics that I can see ways that the enemy is trying to leverage certain things to. To confuse my kids and lead them away from the Lord. Is that because of the things that you have gone through in your life? And we're gonna get into all of those things, Are there anything with your children that you're like, aware of, like sensitive to because of maybe what you struggle with or maybe with Austin, your husband, some things that he may have struggled with that you're like, oh man. If someone was more diligent with me when I was that age, you know.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. I mean, I think the most obvious one is sexuality and conversations about gender. And we live in a pretty progressive area in the Pacific Northwest. And so I remember my 6 year old has a fantastic memory. He just remembers everything. And when he was three and a half, he was at the park and was trying to relate to another kid like you do, and called the other kid the wrong pronoun. And the parent went, and I was not there when this happened. And so the parent went and talked to him and said, well, sometimes they feel like a boy. And so they go by he, him. And sometimes they feel like a girl and they go by she, her. And it took a while.

[Unknown Host]

On the playground.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, on the playground to a three and a half year old. Right. And so Rudy would occasionally say, mom, do you remember the boy girl that I met on the playground? And I'm like, what are you talking about? And it took him saying that probably three times over the span of four months for me to go, oh, he's really fascinated by this concept or confused or something. There's something about it that it's living in his mind. And so that's when I started to pray and look for resources on language to explain to this young of a kid. Hey, the Lord has made us with intention. However, we live in a broken world and sometimes it's deeply confusing to live in a body. And so like attempting to give him first a lens of truth from the biblical text, but then also give him a lens of compassion towards people who have that lens. Right.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so occasionally when we talk about analysis. Yeah, isn't it. Don't you think it would be Hard if you felt like your body was at war with you. And I mean, we'll talk about it more later. But as someone who struggles with mental health, like sometimes we feel that. Right. Like our mind or a body or thoughts are at war with our souls.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Our spirit. And so just trying to get. I don't think we need to have this fear of the culture at large.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Or this. You often hear the term like culture wars.

[Unknown Guest]

Right.

[Brenna Bland]

And it's like, no, our war is not against flesh and blood, but to remember that the enemy is infiltrating those thoughts and ideas and is, and is trying to confuse people. And so how can we compassionately talk to the, talk to people and interact with them, remembering that they embody, that they're an image bearer.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And giving them dignity while also standing.

[Brenna Bland]

Firm in a place of saying, I was made with intention with these things. I think that's clear.

[Unknown Host]

I think what I love is that you weren't like you addressed the conversation but in a context of what she could understand. And I think that like what I'm learning is, is like they're not too. Yes, they're young. So we have to be mindful and wise about how we, you know, frame a conversation. But they're not too young to be talked to. Like they're never too young to have a conversation. Do you know what I mean? Now how we have that conversation may look different, but like, you know, my conversation with my, with my 11 year old is different than my conversation with my fifth year. But the context of the conversation might be the same, but it's just different in how I approach it based off of what's appropriate for their age. And I just think for like parents, like we need to. Because the world is talking.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

The world is talking. And if we don't start talking to our kids, the world is going to talk to them. And I just like we have to start these conversations in the home and, and like you said, ask the Holy Spirit to help us pair compassion but truth so that we have, we're raising, you know, sound minded kids but that also have compassion because we don't want people that's like, you know, how we, how I grew up, like, you know, you're gonna go to hell, you're bad, you know, all that. We want them to want them to have compassion and to love people. But I just think that it's so important, like I look at what's on TikTok and social media and these kids have access to stuff. Like I recently took the Phone, social media, and the phone away from my 15 year old just because I didn't feel like he could handle it. And before I felt guilty about that. Cause I'm like, dang, he's like, he's a teenager, of course he should have a phone. But I felt like the Lord was like, what is more important? That he gets to do what all the other kids do or that he has a relationship with me, you know what I'm saying? And like his soul as well.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And I feel like that's hard for parents now to know how to navigate through all those things. But I want to talk about when you just. Your story is. Is fascinating to me because, like, I did. You also grew up in church and you were a pastor's kid. And so I think people would see your story. And I don't like, if they didn't see that part of the story, they would be like, oh, she didn't have Christian parents or. But you did. So tell us about. Yeah. Like how you grew up. And I'm interested to know when your theology of God was shattered.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Like, what part of your story did the theology of God completely shatter you?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, yeah. So the interesting thing is when I, when I described the facts about how I grew up, people, I would automatically assume I lived in like a legalistic household because my parents were Christians. I was born in the 90s, I was homeschooled. My dad was a pastor. Right. And so there's like a lens that, that creates for that type of person. But my parents were actually. I'm realizing more as an almost third year old that the foundation of faith in orthopraxy that my parents lived out.

[Unknown Host]

Can you define orthopraxy?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. So it's, it's the practice of your theology. So what you lit, what you believe lived out.

[Unknown Host]

Okay.

[Brenna Bland]

Like practice that has been deeply impactful to my faith now and was a firm foundation that I was given and like, in just simple things that we were allowed to listen to secular music.

[Unknown Host]

Oh, wow.

[Unknown Guest]

Okay.

[Brenna Bland]

We were allowed to. This is one of my favorite ones. And it's like slightly controversial, but we were allowed to go trick or treating on Halloween. Right. Like that. That was awesome. When I turned 8, my parents said, you can do whatever you want with your hair as long as you save your allowance to pay for it yourself.

[Unknown Guest]

Love that.

[Brenna Bland]

So I got a bowl cut.

[Unknown Guest]

Love that.

[Brenna Bland]

I bleached it. I dyed a blue, turned green in the swimming pool. It was like. There is just this gift of a lot of girls who Grew up gay, specifically in that context, were told, hey, stop dressing like X, Y, and Z or whatever. And my parents never said anything about the way that I looked at the way that I dressed. They very much gave me the freedom in things that aren't inherently sinful to express myself and to take joy and delight in.

[Unknown Guest]

I love that.

[Brenna Bland]

So that was good. But I grew up with. I think when you are in elementary school, your perception of what it means to be a Christian oftentimes is, here's a list of things that you do, and here's a list of things that you don't do. And if you check those boxes, that makes you in a right relationship with Jesus. And when you're in right relationship with Jesus, you are cared for, you're protected, you're loved, you're seeing X, Y, and Z. I think kids naturally grow out of that simplistic view of Christianity. And I think. I think we're at a place now in the Western Christian culture that we figured out a better way to communicate the gospel to our kids in the way of being a Christian. But because that was my view, I did X, Y, and Z. I walked in those things, granted, in my own way. And the first moment for me that was like, maybe this isn't what I thought it was, was my grandma, my mom's mom loved the Lord. And the way that she would talk about Jesus was as if she had gotten coffee with him that morning. Like, in every moment possible, she would mention Jesus. And it wasn't like in this pushy, like, hit you over the head with the Bible way. It was like, I would say, I want to go to Maui, Hawaii, because it looks amazing. Like, I want to go there. And she would say, yeah, isn't that incredible that the Lord made a place for his creation to.

[Unknown Host]

He was just embodying all of what she thought. Yeah, I love that.

[Brenna Bland]

So she was diagnosed with breast cancer when I was seven. And I remember it felt almost like formulaic for me, that I was like, oh, okay, now we pray. And she loves Jesus more than anyone else I know, and so she'll be healed. And when I was nine, I went away to summer camp and I came home and I asked my mom, oh, how's Nana doing? And she said, she's great because she's with Jesus. And there's so much there. There's like, the guilt of not. My entire family was with her while she passed away, and I wasn't and you weren't there. And my parents had attempted to get me home from Camp. And I, like, I didn't understand that she was dying. So I went back to camp and was just like, this is not how I thought this goes. And so that was in August. In October, my parents sat us down and said, hey, your dad made some choices. And because of those choices, he can no longer live at home. And I didn't know at the time my dad had actually been having an affair and he was no longer a pastor at this point. So my parents got separated, my dad moved out of the house and. And I was a huge daddy's girl. Spent so much time with my dad, wanted to be just like my dad. And so that the removal of this person that I probably idolized because of a fault that was deeply painful, not just to my mom, but to me and all my siblings, was really, really. It was all of a sudden like, everyone calls God father. What does this mean if my father has this much impact and damage?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And that was in October.

[Brenna Bland]

That was in October. Okay. In November, I was going to play my third season of basketball and ended up being molested by my basketball coach when I was forgotten at basketball practice. And so I'm 10. I turned 10 in October. So I'm a fresh 10 year old. I have no language to communicate any of the questions, the doubts, the fears in my mind, nor did I have the language to communicate that I had been sexually abused. And in my brain, without knowing what I was doing, I think I made that decision at 10 that was like, this is fake because I'm going to church, I'm going to Sunday school. And they're telling me, like, one of the most important things is that you don't lie to your parents. That's why Jesus died for us, so that you don't have to lie to your parents. And I'm going to. I don't have a lying problem. I was abused. And I think there's like, people will say, like, well, did you want your, your Sunday school teacher to talk about abuse? Kind of.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Right. When we look at the statistics, kids are being abused younger and younger and younger. And if the gospel informs the way that we care for people, these conversations should be taking place. And so I wasn' I wasn't informed. On God's heart towards people who've gone through suffering, on God's heart towards justice, on God's heart towards abuse.

[Unknown Guest]

Wow.

[Brenna Bland]

And so in my mind, I'm just thinking, as soon as I can, I'm gonna get out of church. Because this is all fake.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And this God isn't real. He doesn't see me. He doesn't care for me. He didn't protect me. I don't want anything to do with this. God.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

So it was. It was at a young age that my theology shattered.

[Unknown Host]

I feel like that is completely relatable for so many of us who grew up in church. Do you know what I mean? Like, there are some people who. Who don't grow up in church. And so that. I think that that might be a possibility already there. But when you are, like, in church all the time, like, for. For me, it was when my mom. My mom and dad got divorced when I was 2. I never saw them together. She got remarried when I was, like, 11. And, you know, my mom has dedicated everything to the Lord. My gosh. All I know is being in church. All I know is my mom being saved. I don't know. I don't know her in any other way. Like, TBN always on in the house. You know what I'm saying? Like, she just loved the Lord. Like, how you talk about your grandma, that's how my mom was. Is even still to this day. But when she got married, and I'm like, oh, I finally get my family picture. I get the dad, because my dad wasn't. He was, like, in and out. He wasn't really present. So I get the family picture now. I get the dad and the mom. And we moved into a house. And, like, you know, we always lived in apartments, me and my mom, but, like, now we're in a house and like, oh, this is, like, what I've always wanted. And I turned 16, and I'm at my grandmother's house, and my mom pulls up and she says, me and your stepdad are getting a divorce. And I. And she had explained that there had been emotional and mental abuse that was happening that I didn't know for all these years. And it was at that point, I mean, I was. The kid sold out. Like, oh, I just. I just loved being at church. I love the Lord. I loved writing to him. I used to write, you know, my prayers out and my journal. Like, I loved everything Christian context. Like that typical youth. Kid danced and did all the things. And it was at that moment that I was like, how could God not be faithful to someone who's been faithful to him? And that completely wrecked everything in my life. I mean, that's when suicidal ideation started. Sexual perversion, all of the things started for me at that age. And it felt like a consistent snowball from that point. It was like life Began a new contact. I don't even know. It was just like a different life after that. Nothing was the same. And I don't feel like I've ever been able to breathe until the time I gave the Lord a serious yes, which was just a few years ago. Like, I felt like at that moment, that's the first time since being 16 that I've actually like took a, like I, I can breathe. Like my shoulders kind of came. You know what I mean? I feel like at that point. But for the, for the Christian who has grown up in the similar way that we have grown up, how can, how can you help them? Or what would you say to someone who is going through a shattering moment in their life at a young age? Or maybe even, you know, maybe for that kid, but maybe even for people around. Because I think community is needed in those moments to, to help people navigate through those. The, the theology of God. Like how that shatters your theology and your. Because you think God, you're supposed to be good to me all the time and good looks like this. Like, how can we help people define what God's good is?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, I mean, I think the most important and basic answer is, do you know the narratives we've been given? Do you know, have you read through the text that God calls his holy word for a reason? And do you understand the weight in the, the culture and the context that that's happening within those stories? Because in that place, when you grow up in a Christian context, you become numb to all the terms that are used, right? You're like, I know Pharisees are bad, but I don't know why. I know the woman at the well was scandalous, but I don't know why. I know that tax collectors were frowned upon, but I don't know why. Right? Like, this is why I love the Word of God, is because when you dive into that and you become a student of the Word, it's mind blowing. The layers of truth and just. Is just profound what is in there? And so I think especially in the Old Testament, when you open up the Old Testament, it is rife with abuse and suffering and injustice all throughout. All throughout. And the crazy thing that I think about too, I think when I get a little, like, I don't know, sometimes when I have a pity party for myself, I'm going like, oh, but I have the Holy Spirit. And a lot of those people just had. They, they didn't have. They had a person who had it or a pillar or a sign, but they didn't have the Holy Spirit.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so I think one. Yeah. Go to the Word and become a student of the Word to see how God walked with people through those things. I think the other thing is just be willing to. Like, when I think about myself as a 10 year old, I needed someone to lament with me. Mm.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Brenna Bland]

Like, I just needed someone to be broken, to recognize that what took place was not right.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Was not good. Was not holy. Was not God's desire for his creation.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

I. I needed that recognition. And then I think this sense of just being willing to. We are quick to run from a situation when we don't know the answers. Right. And. And the average Christian is like, I'm not a theologian or I'm not a Bible scholar. I'm not. I'm like, you know, what people really need in that place, which is like such a simple but profound gift, is faithfulness. When. When God models faithfulness to us perfectly. Which is insane, by the way, because it's like, hey, I'm gonna make a covenant with you. You're not gonna keep it, but I'm gonna keep it.

[Unknown Host]

I'm gonna keep mine, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

That's insane. But then going, like, this person has these profound questions about their faith that I don't even know where to start with. Like, when that person asked me that question, I realized, oh, it's a question for me too. And that can scare you, because it's like, but I know God has all truth, but I don't know what the truth is in this situation. Like, what's the answer? But there's a humility and I think a beautiful witness and a path that God wants to take us on when we commit in faithfulness to this person saying, I don't know what the answer is.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Brenna Bland]

But like, in the Psalms, when the Israelites had to this. I always thought the Psalms were the. The Israelites were terrible songwriters because I'm like, they use the same lyrics over and over and over again. Like, I'm bored. I've heard this part before and then realized through study, they're not terrible songwriters. They are people who know that their hearts are fickle and deceitful, and they have to remind themselves of how God showed up in the past. And so I think stepping in with a person and going, I don't know the answer, but I know God has shown up for me time and time again, and I believe he's gonna show up in this. So I'm gonna walk with you, and we're gonna ask these Questions together. And I'm going to be long suffering with you.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Because God is going to do something in it.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, right.

[Brenna Bland]

Like there's a discipleship that takes place.

[Unknown Host]

I think that's the key word is discipleship. And I think living in the way that I'm living now and looking back on how I grew up in church, that is the biggest thing that wasn't there was discipleship. Like, I don't know anything more important, especially right now. Like people need help and people need people to come alongside them, lament with them, suffer with them, rejoice with them, help them. Like I think about Philip with the Ethiopian eunuch. We need the Phillips to help you, especially right now because I feel like, you know, there's a, there's a trend of Christianity right now where people are coming to the faith. Like as a whole lot of people are deconstructing. There's a whole lot of people that are coming to the faith, which is beautiful. I do think it's a trend. I don't know how many will stay, but.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Unknown Host]

Anymore.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Unknown Host]

Needs to get done.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Unknown Host]

But there, but either way, the Lord is drawing a lot of people to himself. But at the same time, I see so much biblical illiteracy and I think it's because we're not committing to discipleship and not making it like, oh yeah, we can do discipleship. When you are engaged and about to be married, that's when discipleship starts. Because discipleship is more for women who are trying to be married and men who are trying to be husbands. And it's like, no, we need discipleship in the nursery, we need discipleship in preschool. We need discipleship. And you know what I mean? Like, we need to disciple. We need to make that a priority. Because I think like when I listen to your story, it's like if, if maybe if there was like heavy discipleship that 10 year old could express, you know, I don't know what's happening to me. I'm suffering in some type. You know what I mean? Maybe there was somebody that could help you in that language. I'm curious to what your viewpoint is on what healthy discipleship looks like. And I'm, and I'm also curious on what healthy discipleship looks like for those who suffer with mental health and trauma. Like what? Because I think it has to be handled differently. Maybe for those of us who hand, who, you know, struggle in that way.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, I mean, I think in general healthy discipleship looks like committed time. Like I think about everything else in our life that we commit our time to. Like, yeah, we'll show up for soccer practice. Yeah, we'll go, go to the bar every Tuesday night. Yeah, well, like these things and you're like, it's one of those Things where, like, your best friend didn't become your best friend overnight. Right. We didn't become this skilled of an athlete overnight. And we're so willing to give ourselves to those things that bring us enjoyment and even momentary pleasure. And yet it's like the idea of getting out of bed on a Sunday morning and going to church, and then outside of that, going like, oh, one hour on a Sunday isn't enough.

[Unknown Host]

Hello.

[Brenna Bland]

Right. It's not enough. It's like, in no other context is that enough of, like, anything. Right. And so being able to recognize this is something that we're called to give our time to. It's something we have to be committed to. And so that's why the these. I want to call them like micro practices, because they don't have. You don't have to. It's good to. And it will not return void. To spend hours in the Bible a day. Spend hours in prayer there. We don't have to start there.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so, like, starting your day every morning, go, I'm going to give my mourning to. To listening prayer, to hearing. To attempting to hear God's voice paired with scripture so that I know what God's voice sounds like.

[Unknown Host]

Hello.

[Brenna Bland]

Right. So that I know that when I think I'm hearing this, I can go, that's not in line with God's character. Therefore that is not God. That's a really good way to start your day. Right. And then I think healthy discipleship. It involves other people and involves man. I remember we started doing this series on James at our youth group. And Jennifer, who's here with me, said, I kind of feel like reading James is getting spanked a little bit. Like, it feels like getting spanked.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Because James is, like, so direct.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Is X, Y and Z. And so this call to confession, which us in the Protestant church are like, I'll confess to God not to, but like, it does. I don't need. I'll do it after I've gotten victory in what I'm struggling with or what sin has its hold on me now because I have to keep up this air that a Christian person looks like XYZ or doesn't struggle with xyz. And James is like, no, the reason you're not being freed from this. And I think, and I'm curious what your thoughts are about the term healing in that scripture is not necessarily a one for one of being physically healed, but more so the idea of healing and that is right restoration and right relationship. Like, confess your sins to one another and pray for one one another so that you may be healed. If you're like, man, I've prayed over and over and over and over again, lord, take this porn addiction away. But you're not confessing to someone who can physically step into your life and say, let's. Yep, let's intervene.

[Unknown Host]

Yep.

[Brenna Bland]

Let's disrupt the patterns that you have set up in your life. You're not going to be restored. Right. You're not going to be healed. And so the tension that physical bodies being shoulder to shoulder in a space that. The tension that that brings is an important aspect of discipleship.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, we need that.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, we need that. I think. I think it's because our hearts are deceitful that us being alone gives us more access to hide.

[Brenna Bland]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You know what I mean? And I know for me, like, when I struggle, I immediately isolate. I go within my. Go inside of myself. And if you don't have people in your life, because I do believe that people are a mirror. You can't see where you are. So you're literally just in the dark. And your heart is deceitful. So your heart's gonna lie to you. Oh, you're fine.

[Megan Ashley]

You're fine.

[Unknown Host]

It's like, no, you're not fine. And I think that's part of the confession is being seen. Like, I need you to see me because there. Because I have blind spots. And so there are things that maybe I'm not even aware of that you see. You're like, actually, Megan, you got something in your eye. Yeah, you actually have a booger in your nose. You might want to get that. I see it. You know what I mean? You need people to help you see what you can't see. It's not good for man to walk, to be alone.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

That's not just in the context of, you know, romantic relationships. It's just not good for us to be alone. Like, we need each other. I need someone to come alongside me and help me carry. Carry each other's burdens.

[Brenna Bland]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

That's what we're supposed to do. So I think discipleship is all of that. I think what I've learned in this season is that I've had discipleship with my mom. I've had discipleship and friendship. I've had discipleship at church with my pastor, with an elder or someone older. You know what I mean? I think I just don't want people to think that discipleship has to look like one specific thing.

[Brenna Bland]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Do you know what I mean?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

It's broad. So before Because I know I only have limited time with you, and there's so much I could talk to you about, but you wrote this book. Can I say that? And you released it last year, and when you released it, I immediately bought it. It's available now. You guys can get it on Amazon and to be on my Amazon storefront, too, for. For everybody listening, you can get it there. But you wrote a book, and.

[Unknown Guest]

You.

[Unknown Host]

Were extremely vulnerable and transparent. And maybe for you, it may not seem like as big of a deal because of the things that you've had to walk through. But before I ask. Want to get into. I just want to say this is a really big deal. Like, your vulnerability is not common. This level of vulnerability isn't common. And so I just want to. Yeah, I just want to affirm you on that. Not that you need my affirmation, but there's so much stuff in this that I could. That I even identified with that I would even be too scared to say out loud that. And I'm pretty open about my mental health and things. But there are things that you've shared in here that are just. Yeah. For those who have struggled, for a person like me who has deeply struggled, it was like another exhale. I was like, oh, okay, I'm not crazy for feeling like that or. But you tackle some really heavy things in this book. And overall, I felt like you were really giving us a context on how to suffer well. And you're shattering so much of the narrative that once you are saved, your life is instantly better and you're relieved of all temptation, all things that don't make you a Christian. When you wrote this book, I don't know when you wrote it, but it was released last year. What was that like? What was that moment where you're like, okay, I need to share this. And why was like, what was that process like with you and the Lord? Like, to share in the things that you shared in the specific way that you shared them. Like, what was that and why?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, I had just seen so many of my friends both deconstruct, but also kind of stand on the fringes of the church, saying, I'm curious about. Like, I think I want to know what the Christian Jesus would say about this. What would he say about my abortion? What would he say about the fact that I no longer want to live? What would he say about my, you know, obsessive weed use? Or what would he just. All these things. And yet in church, we weren't talking about any of those things. And I saw this huge disconnect. But when I became, when I said yes to Jesus at age 18, I read through the entire New Testament in a few months. And I was shocked at the Jesus I was presented, who spent a majority of his time with those that the religious majority deemed as unclean, unpure, useless, barred from even going into the temple, the place of worship, that that's who Jesus wanted to spend time with. And so I'm going, I know the God of the Bible. I know that God desires to meet these people on the outside of the church and bring them into the flock.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Unknown Host]

Years.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Brenna Bland]

They're. They're terribly afraid of being brought into the flock because the flock has cursed at them, has spit on them, has laid doubt on them for their expression of their experiences. And I started to have people tell me, it doesn't make sense that you're a Christian. I was like, what do you mean? Like, your life story, everything that you've been through, you should have deconstructed. And I just thought that was bizarre because it was like, this is who God is after, right? Like, Yep. I love. I love Second Corinthians, and I love. I love the setup that we're given with First Corinthians, because it's like, look at this crazy, messy group of people who have. Who have lived pasts that are insane, that were brought into the fold, received Jesus as Lord, make up the body of the church, and yet they're still struggling with these things. I'm like, where is this in our modern church? And so I knew. I just felt like the Lord was saying, I want you to talk to these people that feel unseen by God. And the only way you can do that is by remembering that you're not God. And it was like that one sentence. Remember that you're not God gave me the freedom to say, look at every bad choice I've ever made. Look at every mistake I've ever made. Look at every thing I've done in vain. And look how God has been faithful in those places. And. And. And then also, like, at the end of the day, it's like, it's. There is so much memoir in it. But I. I just really want to attempt to have the foundation be. But let's also look to Scripture.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And how all of those things are displayed in scripture. How the lives of the people in the Bible are horrifically messy.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And real.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And yet God is saying, like, not only do I save them, but. But then there's redemption.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

In their story and their testimony, there's redemption through their life, and there's continued sanctification.

[Unknown Host]

That part.

[Brenna Bland]

Right?

[Unknown Host]

That part. I think what I'm seeing a lot in our current culture narrative is that, like, I'm trying to be mindful because sometimes I can get spicy. I don't want to get too spicy. But what I see a lot is that people will isajita, text and put us in the place where Christ is supposed to be and not place us in the brokenness of the people where we actually should identify.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Do you know what I'm saying? I see that so much where now, you know, we're David and we're all these people, and it's like, no, no, no, no, no. I'm the woman at the whale.

[Brenna Bland]

Mm.

[Unknown Host]

Like, that's me. I'm Peter denying Christ. I'm. You know what I mean? Like, I'm. I think we need to do a better job at seeing the brokenness of the people in the scriptures and seeing how God responds to their brokenness instead of putting us in a position of now we're the hero and savior and when we were never supposed to be. Do you know what I mean? And I think, like, even growing up in church, that's where it was missed. Like, we never talked about brokenness unless it was in the context of, oh, you're broken, Come to the altar, let someone lay hands on you, and you're healed. And I've gotten so many hands laid on me. I've gotten. So I've. You know, all that stuff growing up in church, and then I would get up and I'm like, yeah, I kind of still. I kind of still don't want to live. So then what do I do with that? You know what I mean? And in your book, you talk about. Like I said, you talk about some heavy stuff, but you've been very honest about your experience. Same sex, attraction, mental health issues, suicide, all the things. And I'm curious to what you feel that we are getting wrong as Christians in those narratives versus what Christ says about how we can be in Christ and still suffer, be tempted, all the things. Like how. Because what I feel like is we have the extremes. It's either this or it's this. We're either all, like, the affirming or we're like fire, brimstone.

[Brenna Bland]

You're going to hell.

[Unknown Host]

Like, you can't even have a temptation. If you have a temptation, you're not saved. You don't have the Holy Spirit.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And I hear that a lot, too. Where do we hold the tension and the balance of that? Like, what does Christ say? What is your experience in that?

[Brenna Bland]

You know, one of the most illuminating things to me was finally coming to the realization that God always heals. God always heals. Because I sat for a really long time going, God sometimes heals.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And that's okay. And he's not gonna heal me. Like, when you've been to the psych ward twice as an adult in ministry, after attempts, I think you finally get to the tired place of saying, I think God only sometimes heals, and he's not going to heal me. And it sounds cheeky when you say God always heals because people are like, wait a second, is that word of faith? Is that prosperity gospel? And what I mean by that is I am going to be healed because I, I can't, I shouldn't even start with because I. Because God sent his son to die for me on the cross, made a way for me to be with him. So when I'm face to face with Jesus, like, all my afflictions will be healed. All your afflictions will be healed?

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[Brenna Bland]

And so I think I talked about it for the Patreon subscribers, but this woman was, I was having this conversation with this woman and she said, when you were sharing your story, what stood out to me is this realization that when Christ suffered on earth, he suffered towards the cross, ultimate pain, betrayal, death. Like the most, the, the most painful thing to ever go through. That's what Christ suffered towards. We suffered towards eternity with Jesus. That's insane. And so I, I think like that first realization is just, this will not last long.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

This will not last long.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And the crazy part is that God doesn't cause suffering, but in his great redemption, he chooses to use it like he can use it.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And that's what we get in second Corinthians 1. I think it's three through seven when Paul's talking about the. We are comforted by Christ in our affliction, and when we experience affliction, we can comfort others.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so there's this idea that becomes this lived out truth when I go, like every painful moment I ever wrote about in the book, when I was living in that moment, I couldn't see.

[Unknown Host]

Past it because when you're in pain, all you know is pain.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And I remember there was a moment after the book was released and I'm like a glass half empty kind of person. And so I was like expecting like a lot of helpful criticism. And when the reviews started to come in and the DM started to come in and the email started to come in of people saying, I've, I felt seen for the first time. That was the first moment I'd ever like truthfully felt thankful for the suffering that I got to experience so that others would know that Christ is in that with them too.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And, and so it's like, it's this, it's this crazy thing that we're not alone in our suffering. Christ is with us in our suffering, and Christ weeps with us in our suffering. And Christ laments our suffering and he also sustains us in our suffering. Right. Our weakness. We get to boast in our weakness because God is strong.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And he carries us through that. And then when we get to the other side, out of that valley, God goes. It's not. It's not going to stop here because I'm gonna beautifully recycle. Right. Literally, this idea of that now you get to be a witness and a testimony and a ministry to someone who feels like they will never make this out, like, make it out alive. And that's. The fact that God chooses to allow us to do that with him is insane.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so I just. I think I want to beg listeners to remember that God's good doesn't mean our comfortableness.

[Unknown Guest]

Yes. Yes.

[Unknown Host]

I think I was just talking to my Patreon community because we. We do a Bible study on Tuesday, and I was talking to them last night. And in Romans, where we talk about God will work all things out for the good of those who love him, and called according to the purpose. I think for me, I always thought the good meant that you were gonna give me what I thought was good. And what I'm learning is that the good is that God is forming you into the image of His Son, not the. Not that the thing is gonna be fixed. Not that the gift is gonna be given in the package that you want it to be or whatever that is. Like, the good isn't determined by what you deem the good is. The good is. Is that he leverages the pain, the bad, the trials, the suffering to form us into the image of His Son, which is. That's the good.

[Brenna Bland]

The crucified Savior. Right. That I think that's what we forget is like, what did Jesus say when he was on the cross? God forgive them. They don't know what they're doing. When it's like. I think we're like, over being formed into being like Jesus. People can get into this place where it's like, I'm a good leader. I'm a charismatic person. I get in the room and I can preach well. It's like, I think the forming things are Christ's gentleness and the way that he suffered. Willingly walking towards the cross, being on the cross.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

That and the. And. And the fact that Jesus ministered to the two next to him who were also dying in his suffering in the midst of it. Yes. And I'm just having a thought just now that, oh, Lord, the next season of suffering that I go through, would I be able to minister in that season? Right. Like, I think that's a sign of maturity.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah, that's good. That's good. It's like. Can I. Because I was gonna ask you, I wanted to ask you about suffering while you're in ministry, because you were in ministry while you were deeply suffering and you were actively doing ministry. But before I. Actually, before that, I. I had this thought as we were just talking about, like, I feel like when you're, like when you said like all. When you're in pain, all you know is pain. Like when it's like, I can't see past this. And I thought. I was just thinking about Christ and when he's in the garden and he's praying and he's sweating drops of blood like this deep intensity, painful, lamenting prayers, and you know, he says, let this cup pass from me, but nevertheless, if it's your will. But you know, as I read through commentary and listen to different people preach, and I love listening to Paul Washer talk about this, but it's like what he was not wanting to go through wasn't the whipping and the lashing and the nailing, but it was the separation from his father, who he had never been separated from. And what I feel like the Lord is reminding me of is like, yes, you're suffering sucks. Yes, it's painful. Yes, having bipolar depression sucks. Yes, your son having autism and Fragile X and being non verbal sucks. Yes, the divorce sucks. Yes, the relationship fails. Like, yes, those are painful. But the difference is, is that Christ suffered something that we never have to, and that was separation from the Father. And like, we suffer, but we always have Him. Do you know what I mean? So, yes, you suffer, but you never have to suffer without me. I'm with you. And I think that's the thing that, like, I have to remind myself of, is that, yes, I'm suffering. Yes, this hurts. And yes, the Lord is grieving this. Because what he's saying is, is that it was never meant to be this. I didn't design it to be this way. So, yes, you're grieving, but I'm grieving this with you. Because I. Like, he didn't design it to be this way, but I'm never without him. His promise he will never leave us or forsake us. Like that is the thing that I feel like for anyone who is suffering, struggling with anything, it's that hold on to the promise that you're not alone. He's with you. So. So Christ suffered something that we never had to suffer as long as we stay, you know, in relation, when you're a Christian, you believe you're, you're. You go through sanctification, all the things we have a hope that we'll be face to face and live with him for eternity. But even now, here we get to be with him like he's with us. Do you know what I mean? I just think that that is a different way of looking at, or at least for me, a different way of putting my suffering in perspective is like Christ suffered separation from his father so that I never had to. And I think that is just important. And as you. Cause I know in your book you talked about that moment in the psych ward where you were like, this is now I'm actually alone. Like, you didn't have anyone, you didn't have your husband, you didn't have anyone. You were there for days by yourself and you prayed and God told you, you never asked. You know, you didn't make your request known. What was that moment of realizing that, oh, he's with me because maybe you felt like he wasn't with you before. Like, what was that like for you in that moment of realizing, like, I'm alone now, I'm not alone?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. Well, it was crazy because the, the phys, like the literal physical effects of the peace that transcends understanding came first. So I was in the psych ward and I hadn't slept more than two hours in about six months. Not two hours at a time. But. And that verse, make your request note, like, flashed in front of my eyes. And I remember like, lord, you haven't healed me. I just need you to be with me because I. There's no one else. And I fell asleep and I woke up like eight hours later.

[Unknown Host]

Wow.

[Brenna Bland]

And so that, like, that God's grace and peace in that moment was so bizarre to witness in a physical sense. And there was a few weeks later when I was asked to teach. And they were so gracious because they knew my situation and they said, no, we'd still love. We'd still love for you to come teach. And so I did what you're not supposed to do, and let's just flip through the Bible and be like, whatever, like, lord, just speak to me. And I was not in a great mindset with the Lord because again, I was pissed that I wasn't dead.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And here I am being asked to preach. So I get to Mary and Martha and Lazarus's story, and I've always known Lazarus's story, but I've never focused on Martha and Mary. And it got to the point where it Said, jesus, if you would have been here, my brother wouldn't have died. And that hit me like a ton of bricks, because it was like, that's what I've been saying. Jesus, if you would have been here, I wouldn't have ended up in the psych ward. Jesus, if you would have been here, I think I would have been healed. Jesus, if you would have been here, like, my life trajectory wouldn't look like this.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And then it got to the place where it says, Jesus wept. And that just confused me so much, because Jesus is about to raise Lazarus, and so he knows what's coming. And I think the curious part about that is Jesus could be the person who tells us not to mourn our reality because it soon won't be our reality, because that is true of every single Christian. So God could say that to us.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And yet he gave us the example of Jesus weeping our current reality in the now and the not yet and the brokenness. And when I realized that the embodiment of Christ is not to be like a superhero and swoop in and fix the problem and leave, but to say, I am broken by what breaks you.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And I'm grieved by what pains you. And so also I am here with you was a profound truth that it almost became like, there's a savoring. And I want to be really careful saying this, especially those who have diagnosed or undiagnosed mental health issues. But I think this is what's wild about doing life with God, is that there's almost a savoring to be done in the suffering of how God sustains you in that. Because if I never suffered like X, Y, and Z, I wouldn't know God's character. It's like the Israelites saying, can't you just give us manna once a week? And God's saying, you have a need. You are greatly dependent on me. My desire is to meet you in that need every single day.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

That you might come to know me more intimately. Know my voice, know the way that I care about you. Know the way that I move. Know. Know your identity in me. That's how God uses our sufferings and our needs to show up. And when we say, actually, I just. I would rather take it, you know, now and not do this every single day. We miss out. And again, it comes back to, like, that's God's good redemption.

[Unknown Guest]

Yes.

[Brenna Bland]

In those things that because pain and brokenness exist in the world, we will walk through it.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

We will experience it fully.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

But that we will experience it completely differently.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Because Christ is revealing himself and his character in it.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

We don't know God's strength when we're strong. Right?

[Unknown Host]

Correct.

[Brenna Bland]

When we're pulling ourselves up.

[Unknown Host]

Correct. Correct that.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I think that people also need to understand that, like the Lord, because he's kind and he's merciful. Or at least what I'm learning is because having bipolar depression sucks. And there are moments where I'm struggling, where I've begged, just fix it.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I'm not living a non consecrated life.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I'm doing the things. I'm committed to my spiritual discipline. I'm praying, I'm fasting, I'm reading the word, I'm spreading the God, like, what more can I do?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

Just heal it already. Fix it. So either A, I get mad at myself because something's wrong with me. Maybe there's some unseen sin, unconfessed sin, maybe it's me.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

But then I go through the process. I'm like, okay, well, I always know there's pride in my heart. That's always something I'm dealing with. So, okay, Lord, I'm confessing pride, repenting all the things and nothing's happening. So now I'm mad at you. So now I got an attitude with the Lord because I'm like, what is going on? And I feel like the Lord is always reminding me, I know you and have known you since before you were placed in your mother's womb. I know you and I know what it's going to take to keep you near me. So what if I don't remove this thorn? Because that is what keeps you near. That's what keeps you dependent. That's what keeps you consecrated. It's what. And the truth of the matter is, if I was being honest, it is. Because if he were to take it away, Brenna, I probably wouldn't need daily, man. Like, I wouldn't need daily manna.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

I would be like, oh, I'm straight.

[Brenna Bland]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

You know what I'm saying? And so how can we. Because this narrative of like, you're gonna get saved and everything is going to be perfect. It has to be debunked, it has to be demolished.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

So how can we help? Like what. What do you. What are your thoughts and your experience on that? Like, yeah, yeah. In the suffering, in the temptation, all the things. Because I'm so tired of people, you know, criticizing people like you, people like Jackie who are so extremely honest and transparent and vulnerable about the truth of their experience past and current. And it's like, oh, well, they must not be filled with the Holy Spirit because if they were, they wouldn't struggle. They, you know, they wouldn't have these certain temptations. And I'm just like, well, that would have to also apply to me then too. Right. And my mental health. That would also have to apply to my son, who's autistic and non verbal. So that. Are you saying that he has some unrepentant sin because he does. You know what I'm saying? Like, wouldn't that have to apply to all the areas of suffering?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

You're still lusting after women. Does that mean. Do you know what I mean? You're a gossiper. So does that mean you have some, you know what I'm saying? Like what? You have the temptation to be angry. You have the temptation to. Do you know what I'm saying? Does that still apply to them too?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, yeah. So this is what I'm thinking about right now is Paul says, I prayed for this to be removed, which I love, because it gives us this framework that's like we can ask and we should. Paul's like, I prayed three times.

[Unknown Host]

Three times, yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And it wasn't removed from me. And I'm thinking about, what did Paul's suffering produce? And Philippians 4, starting verse 11 says, I'm not saying this because I am in need, for I have learned to be content whatever the circumstances. I know what it is to be in need. I know what it is to have plenty. I've learned the secret of being content in any and every situation, whether well fed or hungry, whether living in plenty or in want. That's crazy to me that he says both of those situations. He's not going, I suffered with Christ and this wasn't removed. And then guess what? Now everything's good. Paul's saying, what's actually produced from the suffering is that whether I continue to suffer or not, I am content because I have all things that I need in Christ. That's insane. That is in the biblical narrative. And that's like, I think that's the truth that has to be reckoned with, is that what we are given from the biblical narrative is not be faithful and your life will eventually get to the place where you are comfortable, where suffering is removed. It's be faithful and God will disciple you to the place that when you are suffering, temptation is no longer given into in those places.

[Unknown Host]

Correct.

[Brenna Bland]

Right.

[Unknown Host]

Like, that's good.

[Brenna Bland]

I think the older that I'm getting, I'm finally in Those places where I'm like, I'm deeply depressed, but I don't want to go back to drugs anymore.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Right. My heart hurts, but I don't. I don't want to think about what I'm missing out on in the ways I've submitted my sexuality to God.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And it's like this incredible growth that God uses. And so I think when our hearts are aligned with God, we see the benefit of his redemption through suffering. And in that stance, it's not. I don't want to say we can welcome suffering in the sense that we.

[Unknown Host]

Ask for suffering, but expect it.

[Brenna Bland]

But expect it. Joyfully remembering that I can lament it, I can grieve it. God is with me in it. And he will use it.

[Unknown Host]

And he'll use it.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And like you said, on the other side of it, there will be a fraction more of me that looks like Christ who died.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

On the cross.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And that's the beauty.

[Brenna Bland]

It's insane.

[Unknown Host]

That's. That's literally the beauty.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And this, this month that this episode airs, it's going to be during Mental Health Awareness Month. And I want to give visibility to people who suffer in that way. Maybe feel like the Lord has forgotten about them because they're still suffering, because they still struggle. And it was just important to me to have that conversation with you because of how honest and vulnerable you are, because there's a different conviction that you have when you've lived it. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you can hear the difference between someone who's maybe seen it and then someone who's actually lived it. The conviction comes across different. And. Yeah, there was just no other person I would want to have that conversation with. But before you go, I kind of want to. There's two things I want you to kind of debunk. I know I got to get you out of here. One is the idea of suffering with mental health as a Christian and getting help in that, whether that's medication, therapy, whatever that is. Because I think there are those Christians that's like, all you need is, you know, all you need is Jesus lay hands on you. And you don't need, you know, none of that. No. There might be some other things you might need. So I want to get your thoughts on that. And then for those who are in ministry and that are suffering, whether it's same sex attraction, whether it's mental health issues, whether it's suicide, whatever it is, what, what can you say to those things to help people who are struggling in that way.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. Answer the first question. First is very simplistic answer, but it's one of the. My favorite little quips. I heard it was a Christian comedian woman from the south, and how this woman came up to her and was like, I don't know how I feel about you taking mental health medication. And she said, well, how about you drive home without your glasses on? Yeah. And, like, I think, like, yeah, truly, I. I think that we do not critically think often through issues of mental health being weird. Body, spirit, mind, like that. That's a. It's a. It's a need that can be aided in.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Through multiple means.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

Not just spiritual. And there's an extreme group of people who say, don't go to the doctor.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

But the majority of people who I think who struggle with can I take mental health medication? Are people who would say, you absolutely should get chemotherapy. You absolutely should get a cast for your broken arm. You absolutely should wear your glasses while you're driving home.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so I think just realizing that medication is a common grace given to us by God.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

That's good that there's help there. And then the second question. Can you say it one more time?

[Unknown Guest]

Yep.

[Megan Ashley]

It was for people who are in.

[Unknown Host]

Ministry, and ministry is so broad now. So we have people who are teachers, preachers, all the things. But then we also have the Christian content creators now, who is a form of ministry. Right. We have podcasters. We have all the. All the things. And what about those who are struggling with maybe desires or mental health things that are like, can God still use me even though I'm struggling? Can I still be vulnerable? Because I'm sure there's a temptation to not be vulnerable and express some ways that you're struggling because of the platform you have.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

What would you say to people like that? Criticize people like that, A and B, for people who live it.

[Brenna Bland]

My mentors always said when you come across, like, a fit of anger or rage or something, that there's something behind that. Usually, like, I get emails that say, you're ruining LGBTQ kids mental health. Or I've gotten like, I had an email that's like, you should just kill yourself. I'm like, that's crazy. That's crazy to say to someone that struggled with that.

[Unknown Host]

It's, like, insane to say.

[Brenna Bland]

Right. And in that, I'm like, I wanna. I want to have a really snarky reply.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And Lauren has helped me to realize, Brenna, usually behind those things is fear.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so I think when we get criticism from people, it stems from a fear. And maybe it's a fear that we're embodying something that they struggle with, but for them, they fear that if they were to share it, they wouldn't be received. The. Maybe the ways that we've been received. Or maybe there's a fear that I think with the same sex attraction pieces, like, will I ever actually get to experience love? That's a valid fear. And so to remember that that's kind of behind the. Behind the anger. But to say to critics, again, just like, I don't want to say this rudely, but would you read your Bible mindfully, being aware of the context? Because those stories and narratives that we have been given are deeply complicated issues that are literally a ministry to us. Like the Bible is instructive to the ways that we live.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

We wouldn't know how to walk through brokenness and temptation on all these things if God didn't say, I want you to write down your story of temptation, Moses. You got to be honest about the part where you got drunk.

[Unknown Host]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

That was a weird part in the story that like, you know what I mean?

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And so this realization that God is God desires to use these things. And then I think if it's you personally that's struggling with it, one just an encouragement that, you know, my hope for myself and what I know to be true of you and to know to be true of other ministers in this space is there's a good stewardship in how we share and what we share and when we share. And so there's always the peace and the conviction of confession that my prayer is, Lord, the minute that I realize I'm in wrong relationship to you, would it come out of my mouth to someone else who loves you deeply, would they walk with me? Well, in that. And it doesn't always have to be, nor should it oftentimes be a post on Instagram, a reel, a TikTok. Right. Like there has to be this foundation of discipleship and accountability that's going on.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And then I think the Lord in his kindness gets us to the place where he says, hey, you're ready to share this more broadly. But when we get stuck in the lie that I'm deeply depressed or I'm saying sex attracted or, you know, I struggle with lust or whatever. And so God can't use me until I'm. Until I have the victory over this. I just think that's when the doctrine of grace becomes radical to our reality.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

That God still desires to use you. And be. Be obedient. Like, I'm. Don't hear what I'm not. You know, I'm not saying if you're having an affair, keep preaching because God's gonna use that in that space. I'm like, well, actually, no, there's a bigger issue there.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

But when it's issues of struggling and of temptation, I think the enemy delights in you being paralyzed by those things. And Christ actually desires to lift us again. It's that picture of I'm weak, I'm so weak. And how is Christ displayed? Well, through my weakness.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

So don't let the enemy silence you.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

For those things that live in your mind.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

I love that God is so faithful.

[Unknown Guest]

He is.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

And I think if anybody can see a picture of that, all they have to do is look at you. All they have to do is look at. Read your book and see this beautiful picture of a. Keeping God. Like the way he has kept you from the beginning to now, how he's still keeping you. There's so much encouragement and hope and just the story of your life. And so I pray that. That when people leave this episode, they go look you up and they buy your book and they see hope. And I was praying for you. I put this in your card. But I wanted to say this publicly when I was praying for you. The scripture that kept coming up was in Matthew 5, where Jesus says, blessed are the pure at heart for they will see God. And when I was looking at commentary about the pure in heart, it's just like being authentic and honest and not faking it. And you're not somebody who fakes it. You're honest and genuine and you didn't have to be. You know what I mean? You didn't have to say yes. You didn't have to say yes to God, but you did. And it's offering a lot of freedom to a lot of people, even personally. Like I said, there was language that you gave to some areas where I couldn't even articulate. And so I just. Yeah, I just wanted to thank you for, number one, for coming, but mostly for your conviction and your yes to the Lord and how it's offering visibility for those who may not feel like they're seen or that God sees them. And so I wanted to thank you for that. And then I wanted to ask if you would be so kind to pray for some of those who might be struggling that are listening to this episode, if you could pray for them as we. As we go out. But before you pray, I usually always do a journal prompt at the end of my episodes. So I love journaling, and a lot of my listeners love to journal. So what would be a good journal prompt after them hearing our conversation today that can help them process through some of the things that we talked about?

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah, I love the. The basic one of, Lord, show me how you have been with me in. In past suffering.

[Unknown Guest]

That's good.

[Brenna Bland]

Would you highlight ways that I've missed or that I overlooked of how you've. Like you said, how you have kept me? Because I think, again, like the Israelites, we learn. We learn to sing that song of faithfulness. And when we see it in our own lives, there's just something different. It's like we taste.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Brenna Bland]

And see that the Lord is good.

[Unknown Guest]

Yeah.

[Unknown Host]

That's good. You want to pray for.

[Brenna Bland]

Yeah. Thank you, God. I think it is absolutely insane that you would partner with the world of technology so that we could be in a room in a certain space and time and pray for people that are suffering, or maybe not even suffering now, but suffering when this episode comes out, Lord, are suffering when. When they hear this episode maybe years in advance, God, that see them, you care for them, you are grieved by what grieves them, Lord, and yet you still are the good shepherd, Lord. And so I just ask that you would continue to teach us what it looks like and feels like to submit to you so that when we. When we go off on our own and we see you in the distance, that feeling of being lifted off the ground by our shepherd and brought back into the fold becomes one of the greatest feelings and experiences we've ever been through. And I pray that that would be a catalyst to discipleship and good stewardship of our suffering, Lord, that we would. That we would not forsake you, we would not forsake your people in the moments and the seasons that last much longer than we anticipate of suffering, that we would cling to you, Lord, my. My earnest cry is just make us faithful, God, day after day after day, would we become more faithful so that the side steps off the narrow path no longer look enticing? And the valleys and the cliff that are included on the path do not discourage us to the place of giving up, but our moments where we learn, oh, Jesus, you, the prize who is at the end of this path also walks it with me, also sustains me while I'm clinging to the cliffside or just sitting and waiting in the valley. God, would. Would you reveal that to us over and over and over? And over again. God, I thank you deeply for Megan's ministry, Lord, and the kindness of her heart, God, and in the things that she has come to know and testify about who you are through her own suffering. God, just ask for a measure of grace for us in our suffering and peace and kindness and gentleness and self control as we walk forward in what you have called us to. God, thank you that you are faithful even when we're not. Amen.

[Unknown Guest]

Amen.

[Unknown Host]

I love you, Brenna.

[Brenna Bland]

I love you.

[Unknown Host]

Can you come back soon? I mean, dude, I know you're so far, but come back.

[Brenna Bland]

I would love to come back to Atlanta.

[Unknown Host]

Even just to hang out. Yes, you gotta hang out.

[Brenna Bland]

Specifically.

[Unknown Host]

Specifically to hang out. Thank you so much. This was so awesome.

[Brenna Bland]

Thank you.

[Unknown Host]

Thank you for taking the time. Give our love to your sweet little boys and Austin. Tell them we love you and yeah, I appreciate you. Awesome.

[Megan Ashley]

See you guys. What's up, you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow Into Tality podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow into Tality on Apple podcasts or Spotify and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.