EP 76: Unveiling the Hidden Heart

Summary

Podcast Summary: EP 76 - "Unveiling the Hidden Heart"

Podcast Information:

• Title: In Totality with Megan Ashley
• Host: Megan Ashley
• Episode: EP 76: Unveiling the Hidden Heart
• Release Date: June 24, 2025

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Introduction

In episode 76 of "In Totality with Megan Ashley," host Megan Ashley welcomes her beloved friend and frequent guest, Jackie Hill Perry. This episode marks the first part of a two-part conversation where Megan and Jackie delve deep into personal spiritual journeys, the challenges of maintaining intimacy with God, and the transformative power of stepping away from social media. Their candid and heartfelt dialogue offers listeners profound insights into living a life wholly devoted to God.

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Stepping Away from Social Media

Megan and Jackie begin by discussing their mutual experiences with taking breaks from social media. Jackie shares her intentional decision to step away from platforms like TikTok, emphasizing the need for more meaningful and intentional connections outside the digital realm.

Jackie Hill Perry [04:03]: "I think, like, you have to intentionally connect with people differently when you're not on social media."

They reflect on the superficiality that social media can bring to relationships and the importance of nurturing deeper, more authentic connections.

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The Impact of Fasting and Consecration

The conversation shifts to their recent church fast and week of consecration, highlighting how this period of abstaining from food, media, and other distractions led to significant spiritual growth. Jackie relates this experience to Isaiah 6, illustrating how minor sins become major when one seeks deeper intimacy with God.

Jackie Hill Perry [06:11]: "It's like God is no longer giving me the option to not die to it."

Megan adds that this fast helped her understand the perpetual hunger for God's presence and the necessity of continual spiritual nourishment.

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True Confession and Repentance

A pivotal part of the discussion revolves around the nature of genuine confession and repentance. Both Megan and Jackie explore the difference between superficial apologies aimed at alleviating guilt and heartfelt repentance that aligns one's life with God's truth.

Jackie Hill Perry [40:52]: "But I'm gonna say, hey, Laura, I said this, or I thought this, and can you please give me contrition?"

They emphasize the importance of quick confession and the role of Scripture in guiding believers to not just acknowledge sins but to actively seek forgiveness and transformation.

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Contentment vs. Comfort

Megan and Jackie dissect the nuanced difference between being content and being comfortable. Contentment, rooted in faith, involves surrendering to God's will and finding strength in all circumstances, while comfort often leads to complacency and doing just the bare minimum.

Jackie Hill Perry [38:34]: "Contentment comes from a place of faith... It is the difference between doing the bare minimum and yielding to God's will."

This distinction underscores the call to live a life that reflects true devotion rather than settling for superficial ease.

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Intimacy with God and Personal Transformation

The duo discusses how deepening intimacy with God enhances their ability to confess and repent effectively. Jackie shares how understanding God's nature as both holy and merciful allows believers to approach Him with honesty and vulnerability.

Jackie Hill Perry [49:58]: "You are always experiencing graces associated with forgiveness."

They highlight that true intimacy with God leads to a more profound sense of accountability and a desire to embody Christ's love genuinely.

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God’s Pursuit and Mercy

Megan brings attention to Genesis 3, reflecting on God's immediate pursuit of Adam and Eve after their fall. This discussion reveals God's character as merciful and relentless in seeking reconciliation with His creation.

Megan Ashley [53:57]: "He was like, what was my first response to the sin? And it was that he came to the garden looking for them. Like, he pursues them."

Jackie elaborates on how this pursuit is a model for the believer's relationship with God, emphasizing that His initial response is always one of seeking rather than condemnation.

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Responsibility and Obedience in Intimate Knowledge of God

The conversation delves into the responsibilities that come with an intimate knowledge of God. Jackie reflects on Moses' experience and how heightened revelation demands greater obedience and integrity.

Jackie Hill Perry [36:15]: "He has to develop some stamina for ridicule."

This segment underscores the increased accountability that accompanies a deeper relationship with God, challenging believers to live out their faith authentically.

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Conclusion and Teaser for Part Two

As the episode nears its end, Megan and Jackie summarize the transformative insights gained from their discussions. They touch upon the ongoing struggle between flesh and spirit, the battle against shame, and the essential role of continuous confession and repentance.

Jackie Hill Perry [58:50]: "And I guarantee if you tell him even that he will strengthen you. He will give you a grace that did not come from you."

Megan wraps up by inviting listeners to ponder these deep spiritual truths and teases the continuation of their conversation in part two of the episode.

Megan Ashley [65:49]: "But I wanted my kid to know that that is the God that you serve."

Listeners are encouraged to tune in next week for part two, where Megan and Jackie will further explore these profound spiritual themes.

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Key Takeaways:

• Intentional Connections: Stepping away from social media fosters deeper, more meaningful relationships.
• Spiritual Fasting: Abstaining from physical and digital distractions can lead to significant spiritual growth and understanding.
• Genuine Repentance: True confession involves aligning one's life with God's truth, not just alleviating guilt.
• Contentment Over Comfort: Faith-based contentment leads to active surrender and growth, unlike mere comfort which can breed complacency.
• Deep Intimacy with God: Enhances the ability to navigate sin and fosters a more profound accountability.
• God’s Merciful Pursuit: God actively seeks reconciliation with His creation, modeling His character as both holy and merciful.
• Increased Responsibility: Greater spiritual revelation calls for higher standards of obedience and integrity.

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Notable Quotes:

• Megan Ashley [02:03]: "She hates everything about... I hate the way you walk, the way you talk."
• Jackie Hill Perry [17:09]: "You are always hungry, but you are never going to the source to get full."
• Jackie Hill Perry [51:38]: "We have to go to war on shame."
• Megan Ashley [62:12]: "He will work the will in me."

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Final Thoughts

Episode 76 of "In Totality with Megan Ashley" offers a raw and honest exploration of the spiritual challenges and triumphs in living a life wholly devoted to God. Through Megan and Jackie's heartfelt dialogue, listeners gain valuable insights into the importance of intentional living, deep intimacy with God, and the transformative power of true repentance and confession. Stay tuned for part two to continue this enriching conversation.

Transcript

[Megan Ashley]

What's up, you guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Totality. I'm your host, Megan Ashley and this week I'm so excited because I have my favorite guest joining me. One of my favorite people to talk to in general, but especially all things Christ related. And so I'm sure you're going to love this episode and this is going to be a part one and part two, so please don't be mad but it's going to be worth it. We talk about so much and I hope you enjoy this episode. But remember, this is only part one. Come back next week for part two. Yeah. Hope you enjoyed this conversation. What's up you guys? Welcome back to another episode. I'm just going to jump right in. I ain't even going to do a whole, you know, intro cuz my guest didn't been on here. She is the most repeated person that will ever be on In Totality. You know her, you love her. She's my bestie. Jackie Hill Perry. Oh my God, bro. You have to do a different.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I wonder what key that is. Jacob Collier would tell me. He would. He knows that exact key.

[Megan Ashley]

He would, he would.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's sharp.

[Megan Ashley]

It's.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's up there just like the knife in your hand. How are you, Megan Ashley? Thanks for having me back on the couch. Give her water. Lord, I feel privileged.

[Megan Ashley]

No, you don't.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Stop. No, you don't be doing that.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't. You like the new. You like the new set?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I do. I want to go to bed.

[Megan Ashley]

You want to go to bed?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's very comfortable. You got the little blanket. You got the little thing.

[Megan Ashley]

Take a nap.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You got candles and stuff. Like it's giving like holy seance.

[Megan Ashley]

I feel like that's my vibe.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Holy seance.

[Megan Ashley]

I feel like holy seance is my vibe.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You want some water?

[Megan Ashley]

No, it's okay. But somebody did comment. I think I told you this. Somebody.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

She hated it.

[Megan Ashley]

She hated my set.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What?

[Megan Ashley]

She said it was like the first episode back. She was like, I hate everything about. Basically she was like, yeah, I hate everything about. This is white. Everything's too white. She said, I hate it. I hate the way you walk, the way you talk.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay. I hate the way that you dress. I hate the way that you. When you sneak this.

[Megan Ashley]

I hate everything.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

When I catch flight, it's gonna be direct.

[Megan Ashley]

That's what she said to me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. She treats you like he was Drake.

[Megan Ashley]

I was like, jesus, I love it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think it. I think it suits you because when I came here, I was like it's give. It gives. Crate and Barrel.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay. I like crazy. What was the place? What was the place that we went to?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That was dumb.

[Megan Ashley]

It was the place that we went to.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Our house.

[Megan Ashley]

Is that our house at Phipps?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes. AR h a us. Those are. That are like, oh, our house.

[Megan Ashley]

That's what I wanted.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's giving that because it's neutrals, it's clean, it's minimalist, it's all the stuff.

[Megan Ashley]

But since you've been off social media, it's like, come on.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

100,000. Hello.

[Megan Ashley]

Girl, that was there last time.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I know. I just wanted to call it out.

[Megan Ashley]

You see the books my mom got me? I put them up.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I like the green cuz it.

[Megan Ashley]

It gives it a pop of color. Cuz apparently I needed it. According to the lady. Hopefully she likes it now.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

She probably doesn't. She hates you.

[Megan Ashley]

She hates me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's what it is.

[Megan Ashley]

She has nothing to do with the aesthetic.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

She's a subscriber.

[Megan Ashley]

I hate.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

She's Raleigh in the Village and still hates you. But that's another conversation for another day. Because Judas, that's a thing. Having people in your circle that hate you but love you all at the same time, it's the most confusing dynamic. To your point, though, social media, I feel like when you're friends with people.

[Megan Ashley]

By the way, I'm so sorry to cut you off.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You like it?

[Megan Ashley]

I should have said that in the kitchen, but I'm just looking at it and I'm like, it's the leather. Oh, it's leather?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I thought it was just like, distressed.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's the texture.

[Megan Ashley]

When did you get that?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

A couple weeks ago.

[Megan Ashley]

Wow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Should I have told you?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. What are best friends for, dude? All right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Anyway, I think, like, you have to intentionally connect with people differently when you're not on social media. And so it's like before, we would just send reels back and forth all the time and probably not even FaceTime as much. But now it's like, I'm afraid because I can't. I can't share all the things.

[Megan Ashley]

For sure. But you said that, though, going into your sabbatical, you said that you wanted to be more intentional. You said, well, maybe this will cause me to be more intentional with connecting with people. Because social media provides a lens where it's like, you think, you know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

So it's like, I don't have to check in on this person because, yeah, I see them on social media.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Social media eliminates curiosity. And so, you know, you can go on Stories you can go on timelines, and you can get. And you can't get a sense of people's lives, what they.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Up to, where they going, what they done bought, what they got on, if they gain weight, if they didn't lose weight, what they're thinking, what they're processing. And so when you get off, you actually have to ask questions. You actually have to reach out and you realize who you actually love, you know what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

And who loves you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, it's the people who come to your heart and the people that reach out to you, where you realize what connections have actually formed independent of social media. Because some stuff just is actually like, I think, networking and pretentious. And so you see the real thing when you leave.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. So what made you said you were going to step away from social media? And this isn't new for you. You step away from social media every once a year. Right. But this year was. Was different.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And why is that?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Well, I had a conversation with Sadie Robertson maybe a year and a half ago on her podcast where she talked about being off of socials for six months. And I put that in my pocket because I was just like, I wouldn't do that. That's just so. It just. It felt long and intense. But I think her reflecting on how beneficial it was to her soul and her heart made me feel like I might be called to do that one day. And. And so I think in light of all the things. Last year. Last year was, oh, 2024.

[Megan Ashley]

Throw it in the tra. I mean, don't throw in the trash. Don't throw it in the trash.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It was a beautifully broken year.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? Like, even the last time I was on here, I was just. I remember you uploaded that thing. I looked at somebody comment, they said, jackie looks exhausted. And I was, I. I was. I was tired, you know what I'm saying? With all the stuff, I don't even have to name it. And so I think a big part of. Part of it was, is I wanted to get off in general, because I always get off in December just to recalibrate. Mainly because in Luke, I always talk about this. It says that when the report of him grew, talking about Jesus, he would withdraw to desolate places and pray. And it's like we're in this stage where it's like, I can't withdraw to the wilderness. I got kids. I can't. I can't just go to serenity somewhere, you know what I'm saying? And, like, leave. But I think a very practical way to withdraw is to get off socials and to get off socials when I have momentum. Right? So it's like, I just released the EP, we just had Acts 242. I just had a very successful podcast tour of my husband. We have, at that point, 1012 million downloads a year. Like, it's. I shouldn't leave at this time. I should maximize and leverage the moment. But my heart. I don't want to do that. You know what I'm saying? Like, I want to live in such a way where I'm always maximizing my intimacy. I'm almost maximizing my. My leverage, because I feel like I cannot honor him or love people if I don't just get along. And so it was that. And I was weary the way I got dragged last year. I did. I just. I was like, you know, bye, adios, saya nada.

[Megan Ashley]

I think that that's the thing that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, hey, peace up. Ain't no 8 time now. Peace up.

[Megan Ashley]

He said, I'm sick of it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I said, if I get on Tick Tock. Because do you know how crazy it is to get on TikTok? And you know how it just abruptly sends you a video? Jackie Hill Perry is a witch. What did I do to you?

[Megan Ashley]

I just woke up a witch.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Out of all things. I could be me. I'm like, I am so honest. I just don't know how I could hide being a witch. I feel like I would have told y' all that. I would have said it. I cast spells. I would have said it, and you.

[Megan Ashley]

Wouldn'T be coming after people who are actually witches.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm just. I'm not. I'm not. I'm not that. I'm not a hypocrite.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. And that's. And that's.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm just.

[Megan Ashley]

I think that's the thing that, like, again, I've talked about this before, but knowing you in real life, and I say real life because there is a perception that people might have of us, social media. I know you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, you do. You for sure do. Yeah, you do.

[Megan Ashley]

And. And I'm. And I'm always like, she's. She's not a hypocrite. And like, you deeply. And I'm not trying to make it seem like you're perfect because you're not perfect, but you love the Lord and deeply want to honor him in everything that you do. And your integrity. I always talk about your integrity. One thing that I. I guess I would always want people to know about you is that like, you have this maybe tough exterior, that maybe not a whole lot of things phase you or bother you. But. And I hope you don't mind me saying this, but what I've come to. Jesus. What I've come to know, just being your friend and being in your life is like, you are deeply sensitive. You know what I mean? And you are impacted by things. Not that you care. Like, not that you are idolizing what people say about you and obsessing over what people say because you don't. You actually manage that way better than most people. Like, you draw clear boundaries. And even with people in your life, like, you draw clear boundaries of what is healthy for you to know and what is not healthy for you to know, which I respect. Um, but you are like a softie.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. I mean, because the exterior is a. A sham.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know, it's a. It's a self protective mechanism that I developed in light of the softness, you know, because I think growing up, I was ridiculed for how sensitive I was. I was. I was picked on for how quickly I cried. And so I think I had to develop a way to keep that Jackie Saf. And so I think in. In many ways it served me in ministry because I'm able to take more than the average person.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? I think the Lord knew what he called me to. He knew what he was going to give me with. He knew what he was going to have me say. I say hard things.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

All the time. And so I think he knew. She has to develop some stamina for ridicule.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yet at the same time, I think relationally, I think it affects me because I don't think I'm able to be as present, I don't know, loving of people as I could be because I'm always protecting myself.

[Megan Ashley]

So I want to get into. Because that just sparks my mind into some of the transformation that I've seen in you over the last few months. And I kind of want to start from the beginning of how we started this whole, you know, after acts.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, you know, I'd be so nervous. I don't be knowing where you finna go. I'm trying to follow the trail.

[Megan Ashley]

You don't know where I'm going.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I. I don't. Go ahead.

[Megan Ashley]

Surprise, surprise.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, not a fan, actually. Go ahead.

[Megan Ashley]

So anyway, after Ax, we were like deeply, like over all the things and we were just like, you know what?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And each other.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. Like, we were just like whatever. Like we were oh, yeah, we were exhausted of all the things, exhausted of each other, exhausted of the Lord, exhausted of all the things. And then we had a church fast. We had a church a week of consecration, which I'm so happy that we did. And that kind of lifted a. Yeah, it shifted things in us. I mean, and we talked often and deeply during that time of fasting because, number one, we were hungry and we were like, bro.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And we weren't on social. Because you weren't on socials.

[Megan Ashley]

We weren't. We both weren't on socials.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And it was snowing because you remember that.

[Megan Ashley]

Oh, yeah, it did snow.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So it's like we can't even go nowhere, bro. It's like I'm hungry and I'm at the house and I ain't on social media. And what I'm finna watch.

[Megan Ashley]

We can't watch anything because we said we weren't watching.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I was watching Chosen.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, we were watching anything biblical, like sermons and stuff like that, but we weren't listening to music, not watching tv, weren't eating. We weren't on social media. We weren't drinking coffee.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Correct. It's the coffee. I really.

[Megan Ashley]

We were not drinking coffee.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Really can do without food for long periods of time sometimes, but no coffee.

[Megan Ashley]

And you know me, I had no ginger ale.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, that ginger ale is crack to you. Crack.

[Megan Ashley]

And I didn't have it. No, it was all the things.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But.

[Megan Ashley]

There were. There were like these really. I mean, and not every day was super like a high spiritual day, because there were some days where we were just like. Yeah, not in the mood.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, for sure.

[Megan Ashley]

But there were these moments, especially after church, one of those days. So I guess Sunday when we first started and then a couple days after where we were just like.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, you talking about that one Sunday?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, we were talking about. Yeah, yeah, we were talking about all the things. But that fast kind of shifted us, so. Yeah. I want to kind of hear your thoughts on that shift that you've. That I've seen and I know that you've felt. And why, why. What is the shift? Why is the shift? And why do you think that that happened during that week? What was that week like for you of consecration?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Well, truthfully, a lot of the difference happened before the fast in December. I just. I don't know. The Lord had it out for me in a really particular way because I think in my life in the last year or two, it's been a little more intense when it comes to just trials and circumstances. And it feels like he's I can't explain it. It's like I feel like he, he wants to graduate me and not from high school, just from elementary, you know what I'm saying? Where it's like, okay, I think you know enough now and I think you have enough base to take this because it's time for you to actually go from glory to glory. And by glory to glory, I don't mean from prosperity to prosperity. I, I mean just depth and sincerity and integrity. And so it's like he's just been calling attention to places in my heart and places in my life that were not fully surrendered. And I think one of the interesting parts is it's very much like Isaiah 6, where it's like, I think when you first come to faith, it's really extravagant. I feel like I said this before, but it's just like, oh, let me stop cursing, let me stop lying, let me stop, you know, being addicted to weed, let me stop getting drunk, let me stop having sex, let me stop watching porn, let me stop doing all the things. But it's like I'm kind of in this place in my walk where it's the little stuff. Because in Isaiah 6 he looks at the Lord and he says, oh, I'm a man of unclean lips. That seems minor in our culture, but in the presence of God, the closer you get to him, the minor stuff is major. And so I feel like minor things are becoming major to me. And it's like God is no longer giving me the option to not die to it. I think that's the thing. I think he let me get away with stuff for a long time where it's like, yeah, I mean, you just be out here bitter and I don't want you to do that anymore. And I'm not going to give you peace until you forgive. So it was like, it was like so much even of my depression was rooted in me not surrendering deep places of my heart to the Lord. He's like, I'm not going to let you get away with this. Why? You know too much, you know way too much about me. And so I need you to actually live out what you know. And, and so I think December was that process. So when we got to the fast, I had surrendered a lot of stuff. And so I think the fast was like, I don't know, just taking up a notch. And so I, I, I, I think a big part of it is that was one of the first fasts where I actually replaced food.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know, cuz before it's Just like when I was fast, it's just like, I'm just not gonna eat.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But it was like, no, I'm. I'm gonna not eat, and I'm gonna eat. So when I'm hungry, I'm gonna read. When I'm hungry, I'm gonna process and worship and pray. And so there was this sense where everything in scripture related to not everything, but a lot of the scriptures where Jesus talks about himself as food became real to me. So it's like he's like, take my flesh or eat my flesh and drink my. My blood. Or my flesh is true food, my blood is true. Drink or taste and see that the Lord is good. Or in Ezekiel or somewhere. Is that Ezekiel, where he's like, eat the scrolls and it tastes like honey? I think that's Ezekiel. It just was like, oh, that's real life. Where it's like, I remember I told you one time I was, like, so hungry because I was just watching YouTube the way we.

[Megan Ashley]

Bro.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I was lusting after food.

[Megan Ashley]

We had a whole meeting about what we were going.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We were going to.

[Megan Ashley]

For your Super Bowl.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, no, no, no. This is how I knew. This is how I knew. I knew it was the enemy. You was like, I want a McGriddle. We ain't never, you know, like, never been talking about no McDonald's.

[Megan Ashley]

And, you know, I hate McDonald's, but it sounded delicious. We talked about that McGriddle for at least 20 minutes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I was having dreams, bro. I went to. I had a dream that I was at a food court, and it was Thai food, It was Jamaican food. And I said, this is Satan. This is him. Like, hey, them bread, them loaves. Like, go turn them rocks and loaves. Anyway, I was so hungry, and it was irritating me. I think this is like day five.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I was like, you know what, I'm gonna just go pray and read the Bible. And I was reading the Bible and I was praying and something strange happened where I forgot I was hungry. I legitimately forgot I was hungry. And it was like it clicked to me that that is what the Christian life is actually supposed to be, which is you are always hungry, but you are never going to the source to get full. And so it's like our temptations, our struggles, our issues are all hunger pains. And I felt like the Lord was saying throughout your day, you're never hungry once. But you treat my word like you're only hungry once. You're hungry all day. Like, you know what I'm saying? Like, you eat breakfast, if you eat a good. If you eat a nutritious meal, that thing is going to digest, it's going to run through your body and you need another one and you need Another one and you need another one. And we be waking up in the morning thinking that that one little 10 minute devotional is going to carry us for 24 hours, as if we're not hungry all day long. And I think that fast showed me that it's just like, no, you're always hungry, so you always need me. So your desperation needs to make your match your hunger. You get what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

Hello.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I don't. But, but, but here I'm excited. It's. It's like it wasn't an idea.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I think so much of my life in yours and others who are communicators is we are really good at communicating ideas.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Independent of experience.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so as I can, I can articulate that idea very well. Yes, you should. I wrote a whole devotional. You should get in your Bible all day. You should love the Lord, you should seek him, you should fast you. But it's like I experienced it. I was like, oh, I get it. Like, this is when you say that you have living water, when you say that those who come to me will never hunger, will never thirst. I never experienced that fully into that fast. I was like, oh, you do quench thirst. Not theoretically, but actually, actually, actually, you quench thirst.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, I think I t. I talked about that on when I came back to podcast and I said I had that very same experience that for the first time in fasting, I replaced eating with time with God in some sort of way. Scripture, prayer, worship, whatever. Yes, Sermon, something. I, I was like, I have to. And it was the in. But what I'm, what I'm interested in, to hear you say that physically we're never hungry one time. That's only for people who are also healthy. Right. So if I, if I'm healthy and I'm living a healthy lifestyle and I'm exercising, then what I eat I. And then I exercise what I for sure. So I'm burning off what I, what I ate.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

So in the exercise, I. The fuel, the few food is the fuel that helps me burn off as I exercise. I think what could also be an issue is that we are not taking what we eat and exercising it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Wow. Explain.

[Megan Ashley]

So, so it's like I'm taking what I and I'm not applying it in my life. It just becomes, like you said, the idea instead of taking the Word and living the Word, and then in living word, I'm exercising the Word, which would make me more hungry for the Word so that I can continue. You know what I'M saying, like, that's how you build a healthy metabolism and a healthy lifestyle. And I don't think that's different. In our spiritual walk, it's like. Like that one time isn't enough. And if it has been enough, I have to evaluate why is that enough. And what am I doing to exercise what I have eaten off of.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because it's like water.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, I drink water all the time. My. Like I'm just a water fiend. But I remember in high school, I did not. It was. What was some things. Tropicana, something like that. I just.

[Megan Ashley]

Tropicana.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It was not even. It was just juice. I just drank juice all the time. And I didn't realize how thirsty I was until I started drinking water. And when I started drinking water, I started to crave water. So it wasn't as if my body didn't have enough. It was just that, the taste of it, the hydration, it was something about it that stimulated. In the desire for more of that. Well, I didn't want the Gatorade, I didn't want the juice. I didn't want all the things. And I think the Christian life is that way, is that the more of Christ you have, the more of him you want. But it's also that our hearts are so deceitful and so easily distracted, but that we actually always have to be abiding because we just run out.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Quickly. Like something happens. Somebody makes me mad. I didn't sleep well. The dream comes, a thought comes. The interaction happens where it's like you. You lose. I don't know, you lose that dependence. And so it's like. It's not as if he isn't satisfying. It's not as if the bread isn't still in your body. Is that you just always have to be chewing.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, always. Yeah. I think. I think what's interesting about water is that like when I was a. When I was a makeup artist and an esthetician, I used to, you know, we were always taught that like water products, that products that have water are. And that have a healthy amount of. Of water in the product is always good for the purse, for the skin, because water, the. The skin accepts it as, like, as natural because that's what the body is mostly made out of. So it's like it accepts it. And I think, like when I hear you say talk, like, oh, I was drinking juice, but then when I drank water, something different happened to me. I think the same thing happens when you are living in the word, living in Your spiritual disciplines, like, you start to realize, oh, I. I was never healthy.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, I was never healthy. Yeah, I was never. My. My thirst was never quenched.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And here. Here's the deception, because I don't even want to address people in the world. The deception is when you're in ministry and you're useful and you're fruitful, you think you're closer than what you are. And it's only because God is so generous that he's going to use you despite you. So there are elements to which 20, 24 was fruitful.

[Megan Ashley]

Heck, yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Beautiful, glorious. But I was not producing as much fruit as I could because of the places of my heart that were not fully surrendered. Right. And so there's unforgiveness in my heart. There's disrespect towards my husband. There's a dis. Like I'm not paying attention to my kids to the degree that I could. All of that matters to him. And yet he. He is so kind and gracious. Like, you know, she got some places that don't quite look like Christ, but because they're thirsty and because they're hungry and because they want me, I'm going to use her anyway. And I could think it like, oh, look at me. Like, I know scripture. Like, the Lord is blessing me. Da, da. This is like, yeah, you actually ain't that close. You're not that close. You think you are because I'm using you, but I'm using you because I'm generous. And so I think that. I think that's part. That's a part of the dynamic, is that our measure of intimacy is off. We measure intimacy by our fruitfulness and our. Our, like, our usefulness instead of measuring intimacy. But do I look like Christ?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. Do I. Do I look like measure when nobody sees me?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Not, do I look like Christ based off of what everyone sees, but do I look like Christ when nobody sees me?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Does sin hurt my feelings?

[Megan Ashley]

Do I. Am I grieved by it?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Does it hurt your. Does it hurt your feelings that you don't like them? Are you grieved by hatred? Hatred? Because truthfully, in the Bible, hatred, like in the. In the Greek, it means to love less than what people deserve. So we think hatred is vit. Like vitriolic, like, oh, I hate them. No, no, no, you're not loving them according to the standard to which they call. That's hate. Does that grieve you or is that just normal? That's how you measure intimacy. Am I grieved by all of the stuff I see in my heart, and if I am honest, I am not.

[Megan Ashley]

Because we. We will think that people are turned over in major ways. Yes, but you don't love your neighbor. And you're okay with that? Are you like that? This episode is sponsored by Better Help. Let's just get into it. We don't talk about it enough, but men's mental health matters. Like it really matters. There's so much pressure out there to be the strong one, the provider, the one that keeps it all together. And let's just be real, that kind of weight adds up. But here's the truth. Real strength isn't about pretending everything's fine. It's about having the courage to say I need support, and choosing to do something about it. I've seen it work in my own life, how powerful therapy can be, and not just in crisis and when big things happen, but for personal and daily growth. There was a season in my life, just not that long ago, where I was juggling new experiences in life. Being a single mom, newly divorced, all the things. And I was encouraged to talk to a therapist. And let me tell you, it was the best decision I have ever made. Just to have someone there to talk to and outlet, to process and to go through all the things that I was experienced made all of the difference for me and my family. That's why I love what BetterHelp is doing. With over 35,000 licensed therapists and more than 5 million people served globally, it's the largest online therapy platform out there. It's flexible, it fits your schedule, and you don't have to jump through hoops just to get started. And if the first therapist is. Isn't the one for you, you can switch it up at any time. No extra cost, no weird conversations. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, Better Help can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with Better Help just for you. Our listeners are getting 10 off their first [e-mail] totality. That's better help.com totality. All right, guys, back to the conversation.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We should be concerned about First Corinthians 13. We be reading this chapter at weddings, not realizing that it's placed in a book written to the church in Corinth. Who was extremely gifted, prophetic, anointed, speaking in tongues, doing all the stuff in First Corinthians 13 is written to rebuke them, to say, yes, you're gifted, but you're loveless. Why you could speak in the Tongues of angels. But if you don't love, you just making noises. And I think that's a lot of the church is that we are extremely gifted, extremely useful, whether it's administration, whether it's prophecy, whether it's words, whether it's teaching, whether it's book writing, whether it's podcasting. And because we are not loving, we actually don't look like Christ. We look like sorcerers. Sorcerers are gifted. They are very powerful. Yet at the same time, the most powerful thing you can do is lay your life down and love somebody that you actually want to hate. That takes so much humility.

[Megan Ashley]

Hello.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That takes so much humility. But that's the hard stuff, and that's the Christian stuff. Yeah. And so I feel like. I feel like a part of the transformation is the Lord is bringing me back to simple Christianity.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What does it mean to take up your cross daily and not just die on stage, not just die in the podcast, not just die when it's convenient, not just die in the places that, you know, dying in the stuff that just, like, do your husband's laundry, even though he made you mad, do that. And the Lord told me to do that. I'm not giving some random example. I had a whole attitude, and he was like, I want you to do his laundry, and I want you to fold it, and I want you to put it all up, and I don't want you to bring it up.

[Megan Ashley]

And you didn't bring. Because.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, my.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you see your laundry?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

See it folded? Folded. I can see doing it and sitting it in that little bag. You put that up. The Lord. And this. How. This. This is how the Holy Spirit got me. He had some. 2. He got these two house shoes, and they were just randomly scattered. And I'm like.

[Megan Ashley]

He said, put them together.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I kick them. Look. Was like, turn back around and put them house shoes together. And it's just. But that's the die.

[Megan Ashley]

That's the dying.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's what Christianity is. And guess what? There is no public reward for that.

[Megan Ashley]

That part.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You get what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm doing that purely by faith.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That this somehow honors the Lord, that this. Because Philippians 2 says, like, he did not count equality. We got a thing to be grassed, but emptied himself. And you think, the Lord ain't gonna call you to empty yourself. You can't possibly think you Christian if you're like, no, I'm gonna hold on to myself. Absolutely not. No. He is going to call you to die in every place that Actually cost you something. And it's at that. It's in that place that everything you know about the Lord is tested.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Everything.

[Megan Ashley]

So I wanna. I wanna hear. When you hear the phrase, to whom much is given, much is required. Oh, God, you are so annoying.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, God. Come on.

[Megan Ashley]

Come on.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Who.

[Megan Ashley]

Much is given, much is required.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. So my thoughts about it.

[Megan Ashley]

When you hear that, what does that bring up for you?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think about Moses a lot in how, you know, he had access to God in a way that was different than Israel. He had revelation of God that was different than Israel. He had communion with God that was different than Israel. You know, God called him a friend, that he spoke with him face to face. And so I think that adds context to why he was kept out of the promised land. Because when he struck the rock, it was like, you know, too much to do that You. You have an awareness of me, a revelation of me, an intimacy that requires a higher standard.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Of obedience. And I think that's what I. That's what I feel like. I. I think when I open the Bible, the insights that God shows me about his nature, the things that he downloads to me, the dreams, the. The ideas, the way he uses me, and. But just the way he's shown himself to me, it's like, you have to know, I'm gonna require more from you. I'm going to. Because you. Because you've seen me. Therefore, you know what I deserve. But not only do you know what I deserve, you know what I deserve, what I can do. And so at any point where you walk in unbelief, for you, it is not always ignorance, it's a choice.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You chose to reject what you know to be true.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I think that's kind of just what I've been on, is like, oh, man. Like, I can't get away with what some people get away with. I can't casually approach him. I can't just spend 10 minutes in prayer. I can't just let that little thorn in the flesh just. I can't. I can't. I literally can't. And I have a real legitimate enemy that would so desperately like me to be not even just sinful, but comfortable. It's the comfort, it's the getting relaxed that actually communicates something about God that isn't true.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because I think when we're not zealous for holiness, when we're not zealous for righteousness, and you just kind of coast, it's like, oh, I'm not out here committing Adultery, it's like, yeah, but are you living a life worthy of, like, him?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

But just came to my mind, if you can bring context to the difference between being comfortable and being content. Because I do believe that there needs to be a. You know what I'm saying? Like, because Paul talks about being content. Yes. Right. So there is. There is a space in our. In our walk with the Lord where we need to learn how to be content in whatever season that we're in. Right. We have to learn how to be content. But being mindful and discerning the difference between contentment and being comfortable.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Where we. Where we're turning our being comfortable into complacency. Do you know what I'm saying? Because I don't think contentment turns into complacency, but I think being comfortable can turn into complacency.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, I. I think contentment is one. Contentment comes from a place of faith. And so I think contentment is. I am surrendering, yielding, submitting to the Lord's willing way, whatever that is. So, Paul, I have. I have learned the secret of contentment. You know, I have been abased. I have been abounded. When everything was all good, I'm going be content because he strengthens me. When everything was all bad, I'm be content because he strengthens me. Like, there's a contentment with his circumstances in light of the strength that God has given him, in light of what God has called him to. I think that's different from comfort in that comfort has this idea of ease, this idea of relaxation independent of actual Sabbath rest. I think comfort says I'm gonna do the bare minimum. Right. So, yeah, you want me to read my Bible, I'm gonna read some of it. I'm not gonna read. Like, I'm not gonna let that impede on my social media time, though. You want me to cut off Netflix to read your Bible?

[Megan Ashley]

To read your Bible?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's crazy. Like, read your Bible, stop my show to pray, huh? You want me to. You want me to fellowship? You want me to confess my sins? You want me to actually die? Yeah, that. I. I think that's the difference is comfort says I'm going to do the bare minimum in such a way where I can be perceived as faithful but not actually crucifying myself. Crucifixion is never comfortable, ever. I mean, it's not built to be that way.

[Megan Ashley]

What is the difference? And what have you learned about, during this time about true confession and repentance? Like, what have you learned? And. And does being off social media play a part?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's like, you're David right now. It's like you're David.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He had the. The stones, and he's just slinking them, and it's just like, you just. You're just slinging stones. Confession and repentance and fasting and prayer. Come on. In totality, this is what it means.

[Megan Ashley]

What'd you come for then?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I know this is what we talk about.

[Megan Ashley]

What?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm just thinking about the people, because this is. This is normal conversation. I'm thinking about the cat's like, oh, my God. Oh, my God. I haven't.

[Megan Ashley]

Tell us about your.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, take a pause and repent and come back.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, it's fine.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Go ahead.

[Megan Ashley]

You'll be all right. Yeah. I just wonder if the time away from social media has played a part in how you see confession and repentance.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Huh?

[Megan Ashley]

Has it been different for you? What has. It has. Maybe God has expounded on that, or.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What was going on in December kind of precipitated a lot of stuff. And probably the end of December, I randomly was like. It came to my mind. I believe this was the Lord. I was like, phil always talking about some ringing out the heart. I was like, what do you mean by that? So I text him. I said, hey, is it possible to have a conversation on what you mean by ringing out the heart? And so we got on the phone, and, you know when you get on the phone with somebody and you think they just gonna give you, like, 10 minutes worth of advice? He's like, you got your Bible? I was like, sure. He's like, I'm gonna walk you through a couple texts. I said, all right. And so he walked me through all these passages related to ringing out the heart in the sense of it's just repentance. It's just repentance. It's dealing with the things that the Holy Spirit brings to mind that are in opposition to God's nature and his law. And I realized in talking to Phil, I was like, I haven't been repenting correctly. Not all the time. I think I repent well sometime. But a lot of the time, I was like, oh, I think I intellectualize my sin and think that's repentance, but it's not. Which means, let's say I got disrespectful towards Preston, and I sense conviction in the heart. And it's like, oh, that was disrespectful. Dang. Why did I do that? I probably did that because my mama, she used to move certain way when she talked to men. And I need to read James 3 where it talks about the tongue.

[Megan Ashley]

Tongue.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. I'm Gonna read James 3, talking. Let me look at the Greek, let me look at the Hebrew, let me look at cross references. I'm. I'm keeping all of the things about sin in my heart, but I haven't once put it to death. I just. It's just up here.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And I was like, I. I need to actively die to the things that God is bringing up in my heart and. And grieve it and confess it and tell the. And confess it, even if I don't feel sorry for it. Right. So I think sometimes we think I have to confess when I feel. It's like, no, I actually don't even feel bad about this, which is a sign that I'm far from you. And so. But I'm gonna say, hey, Laura, I. I said this, or I thought this, and can you please give me contrition? Can you please grant me reverence? All the stuff. And I. I noticed I started changing when I started repenting accurately and more often. Right. So not just the super gross sense. It's like, oh, anxiety, anxiety. There are some ways in which that's unbelief. I don't believe you're in control. So let me say it out of my mouth now. You know, Lord, I just. I just feel like this is a sin against you because you told me, do not be anxious for nothing. And I am anxious. Please forgive me. Not just, help me, forgive me, help me, and forgive me. I need all those. You get what I'm saying? Hello. And it's some I was experiencing, and I literally mean experience, which scares some sections of the church who only think God wants to use you or communicate to you in your mind. It's like. It would be like a release that I would physically feel in my body where it's like, oh, that's freedom. And so I actually didn't need an altar to be delivered. I just needed to confess. And it's fun. Hard.

[Megan Ashley]

Hard, but necessary. I. I think that that was one thing that I've learned most since we did that week of consecration. And what the Lord has been maturing me in is quicker confession.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

And quicker repentance. Like, in the moment, like, not waiting until I get home to feel like I have to curate this vibe. You know what I'm saying? Where I'm like, I'm putting on. What's his name with the music.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, William Augusto.

[Megan Ashley]

William Augusto. I'm not putting on William Augusto. And, you know, put my blanket on. I'm not doing all that. But like, I'm in the car and I had a thought come to mind or something happen, and I immediately. And the Lord is like, now? Yes, like this. Like, now. This is where you confess.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Not waiting until you are in a specific environment or like, oh, yeah, when I get church, I'm a confess. Like, no, no, no.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Why does the pace matter?

[Megan Ashley]

The pace matters to me because I am alleviating sin quicker. You know what I'm saying? Like, the quicker I confess, the quicker I have help.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. They became, you know what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

The way that just like, the quicker I confess, the quicker he comes and helps me. But if I wait, then I'm giving the enemy. The quicker I give the enemy room. It's like, the longer I wait, the more I'm giving Satan room to leverage what I haven't confessed.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And it's like, the faster I confess, the. The Lord comes in. Yeah. And he's like, yeah, okay, yeah, I saw that too. I'm glad you confessed that. Here I am to help you because I can help you now because you acknowledged it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I. I think personality types similar to ours have to be even more mindful of the intellectualizing.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because we are the kinds of people who Proverbs 3. 5 is coming for. Right? Yeah. Like, yeah. It is so easy to lean on your understanding when your understanding might be more gifted than others. And that's not to say that's not prideful. I'm. I'm simply saying I think God gives. You have some people who are gifted athletically. You have others that are gifted intellectually. That's just a fact. Right. That's our lot in life. But with every gift comes a. A weakness that you have to fight against in a particular way. And so it's like if. If the Lord uses my mind, surely sin will too.

[Megan Ashley]

Hello.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I have to. I have to resist and be watchful of how I can keep stuff up here and never actually put it at the altar. But I think the quickness of confession has to come by way of abiding. Right. Because if it. If. If you don't even sense that it's a necessary thing to do, you won't. You won't do it.

[Megan Ashley]

And, and too, like you said earlier, I. I think the. In the abiding you. You have a deeper Intimacy with him, which means you start to care more about what he cares about. So then when that sin is. Is exposed in you, you actually grieve it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying? And I think that has been a part of the confession. The pace of the confession for me and the repentance is because I'm like, I care that you. That you actually don't like. Like, I care that you don't like this, even if I don't. You know what I'm saying?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And you know what the intimacy does, too. I hate these because I felt it in my. In my. The. The intimacy. This is why knowledge of God is so important. Because when you feel conviction, where you have an awareness of a law that you've broken, if you don't have scripture in your heart that says, not only have I sinned against him as judge and lawmaker, but he is also a savior and a high priest.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You might just stay on the sin and not move towards him because you don't think that he's also able to save and able to deliver and able to forgive. It's very much like Genesis 3, where it's like, no, I'm. I'mma hide behind this tree because we. We. We. We heard you in the garden, and we were afraid. It's like, yeah, but he's Messiah.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He's. He's. He's deliverer. He's king. And so you have to also have a knowledge of God that says, I can come to him with this and trust that if I'm in Him, there actually is no condemnation for me. So he. All he wants to give me is grace.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? Because I think that. I think it's the flesh and the enemy. Because the flesh opposes the spirit, the enemy opposes us. All of it is working together to say, God does not like you. God does not want to be near you. God, like, he wants us to believe that we are still his enemies, even though we exist as justified.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? And that's why we got to read Romans to get that stuff in our system where it's like, no. Like, if he is for me.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No one can be against me, not.

[Megan Ashley]

Even my own self, not even me. Literally, the very knowledge of God's. And I think I've talked to you about this in ways that I've struggled. It's like, because I know his holiness, the Lord. I feel like the Lord created me in a way where it's like when Megan Knows truth. She knows truth. But in knowing truth, the enemy leverages truth against me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay.

[Megan Ashley]

So where the truth should actually produce more reverence in me and more like gratitude because he's holy and yet he's merciful and kind and I'm in Him and there is no condemnation. And he. There's grace. And all the things the enemy in works in my mind to be like. Like you said, there's no way that this holy God can like you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

There's no way this holy God wants to be near your raggedy self.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You know what I'm saying? And it's like the very knowledge of his holiness, like the enemies telling me the truth and lying to me at the same time.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's shame.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. It's like I want. I. I want you. Like, I want you to be defeated in thinking that the Lord is for you, wants you, loves you and has a plan for you, to prosper you and not to like, I don't want you to believe that that's true.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And it's all wrapped up in the truth of his holiness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because you. Because here, here's the thing. It's like we, I think we are been. Have been trained and discipled to know that we have to go to war on sexual sin. I don't think we have been trained and disciple to know that we have to go to war on shame.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That is just as demonic.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

As sexual sin.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's a perversion. You know what I'm saying? Like, if you are in Christ, there is no condemnation, neither death, nor life, nor principalities, nor this, nor that will separate you from the love of God. And I remember I called you, I was like, what that mean, though? Yeah, like, what does that actually mean? And I was thinking about, like, love. What. What is love? Love means God is always moving towards me. God is always for me. God is not my enemy. God is not working against me. And so it's like if he. If God, the creator of the universe is for me and not in an arrogant sense, not in a. But if he is for me, then I, like, I can move towards him and know he'll receive me.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, right. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I, I think, I think Satan in our brains and our flesh have a very difficult time believing that we are actually forgiven.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Even though we are always experiencing graces associated with forgiveness.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like an awareness of him, insight into his scriptures, power, love, all. It's like, yeah, obviously I'm working on your behalf.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

All the time.

[Megan Ashley]

I was. It was interesting. Because I was. I feel like the Lord illuminated in Genesis 3, something that I probably just breeze right past. Because we look at the fall and we. We see that they hid.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

We see that they cover themselves. Right. We kind of go right to that point and we. Or we go to the point where. Where Jesus said, or where God says, adam, where are you? Right. And what I. What came, what God illuminated to me as I was going through this, Eli and I were doing a devotional and we were on Genesis, and I felt like the Lord was like, what was my first response to the sin?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Huh? What was it?

[Megan Ashley]

And I was like, what do you mean? You said. He was like, what did I. What was my first response to their sin? And it was that he came to the garden looking for them. Like, he pursues them.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He does.

[Megan Ashley]

That was his first response. And I don't think we were like. I think we think his response was, all right, now, you know, you're gonna have to work the field, Eve. You're gonna be like, that was his first response. It wasn't the curse, and it wasn't. And God highlighted this to me as I'm talking to my 15 year old, because I was like, eli, I need you to know that if you sin, that God's first response is to chase you down. Like, he's coming. He's coming to you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

He's pursuing you because that is his nature and his character. He's always after us. Not that he's coming at you with wrath and all the things, although he could. And he would be justified.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

But his first response is that he's pursuing you. Yeah, that's the. That is the first response.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It is.

[Megan Ashley]

And I. And I. I think. I don't think I've ever saw that before, but I wanted my. I wanted my kid to know that that is. That is the God that you serve.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes. He's just.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Merciful, but he's so loving and kind that even when he knew where Adam was, he still searches for him and said, or, you know, where are you? He knows. He knew exactly what was going on.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, he did.

[Megan Ashley]

And he still pursued them.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. And he. He. He's. He gave him a question that gave him space to confess.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, sure. Because he didn't need an answer.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

God is never ignorant. If anything, he's creating opportunity for you to be honest. Right. And that honesty isn't punishment. The honesty is opportunity for freedom. And so when you do sense the questioning of God in your convictions, in your conscience, why did you do that.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Not in a shame, but in a parental, like, you know why you do that? What is that thirst.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What is that need? What is that? What is that in you that you're trying to get met or quenched or satisfied in ways that I actually made you to get from me? What is that? That's why I'm asking the question. Because I want to get to the root of the problem so we can uproot it.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. And so I think. I think some of our hesitation in coming, some of our hesitation in confessing is that we're not ready to be delivered.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We're not ready.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know what I'm saying? So it is easy to avoid it because now if I acknowledge it, you know, there's going to be a cost. There was a cost.

[Megan Ashley]

And that. And that was. I feel like what had dropped on me when I called you and I was walking around an altar looking like crazy person is that I realized that, oh, we're actually not repenting. Were asking for God to alleviate the guilt.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. Explain that.

[Megan Ashley]

Like. Because repentance would mean to. I have changed my mind and I have now aligned my mind to what you. What your word says to your truth. That is what repentance is. I feel like. Especially when you find yourself in the same thing. It's like you just went to him and you said sorry. Like you realize what you did. Like maybe there was conviction or something. And you said sorry and you wanted him to alleviate the guilt, but you didn't want to have a renewed mind.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you didn't want to come into agreement with his truth. You just wanted to stop feeling guilty.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You didn't want to align yourself with truth.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And I even realized that for me, like, oh, there are some things where I just said sorry. I just wanted you to take away the guilt of what I did.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And I wanted to just move on. And if I so happened to do it again. What. You know what I'm saying. But I didn't. I. Because, like you said. Because coming into agreement with the truth of God's word would mean I would have to sacrifice.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Something I have to surrender. And I don't want to do that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Because truthfully, I rather be on the throne and not at the altar.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That part. But here's another element of confession. Because we don't take confession deep enough. Say that too.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You know, I'm just here because I just don't. My conscience is really loud and it's getting on my nerves. And I'm only coming to you because I don't like feeling how I feel. I don't actually want to obey. I don't want to actually do what's right. I don't want to stop sleeping with him. I don't want to stop smoking that. I don't want to stop drinking this. I don't want to stop stealing from this person. I don't want to stop being a hypocrite. I don't want to. I don't want to stop. And I'm telling you that even in that I need you. I need you. Apart from Christ, we can do nothing. You can't even confess. Right. Without the Holy Spirit. And so it's just like we need him for everything.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I guarantee if you tell him even that he will strengthen you. He will give you a grace that did not come from you, where it's like, oh, my God, I feel humble all of a sudden.

[Megan Ashley]

All of a sudden I wanna, like, you feel.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You feel empowered to give him what he requires because you even trusted him for that.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes. And all of a sudden, now he's graced you and gifted you with grief.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We're trying to repent in our own power.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. And you can't.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, you can't.

[Megan Ashley]

And I think that's the biggest. One of the biggest things that I've learned in the last six months is like, oh, I can go to him about everything and I can be honest about everything. Like, there is nothing that I can't tell him.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And in the honesty, I have experienced much freedom.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

In the honesty of saying even those things. I don't. I don't want to stop being mad at that person.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Sure. I don't.

[Megan Ashley]

I feel. I feel 100 justified in being mad at this. And I, you know, but. But there's a. But there's a. There's a. That. I know that that's not right. So I'm like, you know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

In those honest prayers where you're confessing. I don't want to. At what point is it much like Gethsemane, where you shift to but I will.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What. What is that?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. Like, I think. I think that that is the. I don't know the steps to get to that. I just know for me, in this season of. Of putting all of my context of my faith and how I am want to live it out. In Romans 12, it's like when Paul is saying, therefore I beseech you, brothers, to Present your body as a living sacrifice. That body thing just rocks me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Because it's like, oh, I. That like being a Christian. In my mind, I believe in the text. It's saying every single day you get up and you sacrifice this entire being. So I no longer get to choose. Now I am under his lordship, where he. I am a slave to whatever he says.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

So even if I don't want to forgive this person, I don't have a choice.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I. I think what's important is you're basically saying you have hidden His Word in your heart.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So that you would not sin against Him.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And this is why we emphasize reading Scripture.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So that even as you pray, it comes against those impulses to do what you want to do.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because now you have some type of conscience or some type of concept of what is right that's coming up in you as you pray and you're yielding to that. You know what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. It's Scripture.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And he says, what are you turning to?

[Megan Ashley]

I don't know.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

New Testament. What is it?

[Megan Ashley]

Is it Corinthians? But he that. Not he that started a good work and you'll be faithful. Yeah. I know that one. But then where he talks about it will give you the power to will. What is that? Is that the same one? Okay.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

He started good work and you will finish it. And he. He wills in you to. Willing to work for him.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. So I think that that's the thing. It's like he will work the will.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

So even if I don't always want to or it's like I just live in a. I offer myself to him all the time, and. And he will work that will in me. So maybe it won't start off that way. And there are some stuff that didn't start off that way. But now as. As I allow the Lord to mature me, it's like, oh, yeah. Like, now I want. Now I have the will to give you this body and for you to say what goes and what doesn't go. But it didn't always start off that way. But I think being in the practice and the discipline of just laying.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Being consistent and like, okay, Lord, this is yours.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. And what incentivizes that? For I think all Christians is Christ is life, Christ is bread, Christ is water. Christ is good. Right. And so I think the yielding is hard. And especially because everything we give ourselves over to satisfies us in some way. Not sufficiently, but it does. That's why we do it. Like we don't, we don't rip our toenails off because.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What, I mean, unless you're like a masochist. But, and even anyway, I, I think like everything we do, there's some type of satisfaction that we want.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. And I think what I am consistently learning in my Christian life is that everything you actually desire is in him. And so the yielding is a trust that you can feel me better, you can satisfy me better that there. And it might not even be immediately, it is by faith. You know, there are some desires that I actually believe won't be satisfied fully until I see him.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yet at the same time, I'm not going to neglect him as I wait.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I, I, I, I think the incentive matters because I could see people saying, why am I surrendering? Why am I yielding? Why am I repenting? Why am I confession? Because you get him, but if you don't know who he is, then it doesn't seem like an incentive.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So if you only get the Jesus that's preached in a lot of these pulpits, I wouldn't want to yield either.

[Megan Ashley]

Say more.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But if you get the Jesus that's in Colossians, the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation, the one, like everything was made in him and through him. If you get the alpha and omega, Jesus the savior, Jesus the bread, Jesus the water, Jesus the loving, Jesus the Messiah, Jesus the judge, Jesus who's coming back to judge the living in the. If you get King Jesus, then he actually is better than everything you're yielding.

[Megan Ashley]

What?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think that was the Holy Ghost. Hello.

[Megan Ashley]

What? What is the incentive that you think common Christianity is getting right now? Because what you just said is the true incentive. But what do you feel like is being presented as the incentive to follow Christ? Listen, I know you want more, you want the rest of this conversation, but I truly believe there was so much in that that you might just need to pause and feast on what we talked about in part one and then join us back next week with my best friend, the one and only Jackie Hill Perry, for part two of our conversation. See you then. Listen, guys, we are revamping all things that comes to in totality Merch. And we still have some pieces left for our first collection. So because it's summertime, I probably won't do this again. But we are having a flash show going on right now. 35% off everything on the site. Take it. I'm stressed out, Jordan. Stressed out. Take it all. We don't have that many pieces left. Even if you have a piece already, buy another one. Bless somebody with it, whether it's a birthday gift, graduation gift, or even a Christmas gift. I know it's early, but it never too early to prepare. I love you guys so much. Buy the merch and get ready for some really cool new pieces that are going to drop very soon. I don't know when, but very soon. Buy the merch right now at themaganashley Shop. See you there. What's up you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow in totality podcasts everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow in totality on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.