EP 77: Unveiling the Hidden Heart (Part 2)

Summary

In Totality with Megan Ashley – Episode 77: Unveiling the Hidden Heart (Part 2)
Release Date: July 1, 2025

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Introduction

In the concluding part of her engaging conversation with Jackie Hill Perry, Megan Ashley delves deep into the heart of Christian discipleship, authenticity in ministry, and the challenges faced by Christian content creators in a digital age. This episode, "Unveiling the Hidden Heart (Part 2)," offers listeners profound insights into living a life wholly devoted to God, navigating the complexities of social media influence, and embracing genuine repentance and spiritual growth.

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Key Discussion Topics

1. Incentives to Follow Christ

The conversation begins with Megan posing a crucial question: "What do you feel like is being presented as the incentive to follow Christ?" (00:51).

Jackie Hill Perry responds by critiquing the prevalent narrative of self-aggrandizement and human optimization as incentives for following Christ. She argues that Christianity is often portrayed as a path to personal success and fulfillment, which can divert believers from the true essence of sacrificial love and service.

"I think we've created a version of Jesus who comes alongside us to serve our dreams instead of a Jesus who says, no, I need you to lay everything down to serve mine." (02:37)

Jackie emphasizes that true Christian discipleship requires prioritizing God’s will over personal ambitions, highlighting the dysfunctional and chaotic state of the world when individuals do not center their lives around Christ.

2. Christian Content Creation and Social Media

Megan transitions the discussion to the realm of social media, expressing her grief over the current state of Christian content creation driven by algorithms rather than genuine faith.

"I'm very troubled by the rise in content that is provocative and sensational but not discipleship-focused." (07:06)

Jackie Hill Perry echoes these concerns, lamenting the prevalence of child-like, entertaining content that lacks depth and fails to teach scripture effectively. She criticizes the use of clickbait and misleading titles that prioritize engagement over truth and honor.

"Even the titles are lying. They're putting false witness on the platform." (09:02)

Megan and Jackie discuss the ethical dilemmas faced by Christian content creators, emphasizing the need for authenticity, integrity, and a heart posture that honors God rather than chasing worldly metrics like subscribers and downloads.

"If I'm a content creator, I need to ask: Is my content helping me love God and my neighbor more?" (16:56)

3. Repentance and Spiritual Growth

The conversation shifts towards personal repentance and the courage required to confront and cleanse one's heart of sin. Jackie shares her journey of forgiveness and the transformative power of true repentance, drawing parallels with Psalm 51.

"Repentance is an act of courage, a decision to move differently anchored in the love and mercy of God." (27:53)

Megan adds her vulnerability, recounting a personal experience where shifting from petitioning God to simply praising Him deepened her relationship with Him.

"I felt so much closer to Him by simply just being about Him, making it about Him." (25:53)

4. The Prodigal Son and Personal Application

In a reflective segment, Megan relates her life experiences to the parable of the Prodigal Son, discussing her journey of returning to God with intentions of servitude and discovering His unmerited favor.

"When I taste and see that the Lord is good, everything of lower quality just doesn't hit the same anymore." (53:22)

Jackie encourages Megan to maintain a constant relationship with God, likening it to taking medication before pain sets in, ensuring that faith remains a priority regardless of circumstances.

"Even if the Lord doesn't take away your suffering, He is still worthy of your complete devotion." (63:09)

5. Authentic Authority and Servant Leadership

The duo explores the concept of authentic authority in ministry, distinguishing between power driven by self-interest and authority rooted in intimacy with God. They advocate for a ministry that emanates from genuine holiness and dependence on God rather than strategic manipulation.

"You cannot have authority over what you're still a slave to." (35:17)

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Megan Ashley: "We need to ask ourselves where we are in our hearts and repent for what we are consuming and creating." (27:22)

• Jackie Hill Perry: "The greatest in the kingdom is the servant of all. That's the true essence of Christian faith." (22:44)

• Megan Ashley: "My life is my worship. Being laid down at the altar for the Lord every single day is true worship." (47:58)

• Jackie Hill Perry: "We just need to get back to the basics of the Christian faith. Who is Christ? What does He require? What does it mean to follow Him?" (66:16)

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Personal Reflections and Experiences

Throughout the episode, both Megan and Jackie share personal anecdotes that illustrate their spiritual journeys. Megan discusses her sabbatical and the emotional struggles she faced in reconciling her content creation with her faith. Jackie opens up about her process of forgiving others and the internal battle of relinquishing control to embrace true repentance.

"I was holding onto offenses in my heart, which quenched the Holy Spirit's presence in my life." (33:58)

Their candid conversations serve as a testament to the challenges of living a life fully devoted to God amidst societal pressures and personal weaknesses.

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Conclusions and Takeaways

In this heartfelt episode, Megan Ashley and Jackie Hill Perry challenge listeners to:

1. Prioritize God Over Personal Ambitions: Avoid using Christianity as a means to self-optimization and worldly success. Instead, focus on sacrificial love and serving God's will.

2. Create Authentic Content: Christian content creators are urged to produce content that honors God, teaches scripture faithfully, and fosters genuine discipleship rather than chasing algorithm-driven metrics.

3. Embrace True Repentance: Genuine repentance requires courage to confront one's sins and surrendering control to God, leading to deep spiritual growth and intimacy with Him.

4. Understand the Prodigal Son: The parable serves as a mirror for personal reflection, encouraging believers to return to God with humility and dependence on His mercy.

5. Maintain Authentic Authority: Ministry should stem from a place of genuine holiness and intimate relationship with God, not from strategic manipulation or pursuit of power.

6. Return to the Basics: A strong foundation in the basics of the Christian faith—understanding who Christ is and what it means to follow Him—is essential for authentic discipleship and effective ministry.

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Final Thoughts

"Unveiling the Hidden Heart (Part 2)" is a compelling exploration of the depths of Christian faith, the pitfalls of modern ministry practices, and the transformative power of authentic repentance and devotion. Megan Ashley and Jackie Hill Perry invite listeners to reflect deeply on their spiritual journeys, urging a return to genuine discipleship and wholehearted service to God.

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Remember: Whether you're a seasoned believer or just beginning your spiritual journey, this episode provides valuable insights to help you live a life that truly reflects God's love and truth.

Listen to the full episode on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.

Transcript

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[Megan Ashley]

This episode concludes our conversation with Jackie Hill Perry. So I hope you guys were able to see, sit and process everything in part one, and now you get to conclude the conversation with part two. And I pray that it's good to you and I pray you enjoy the conversation. What do you feel like is being presented as the incentive to follow Christ?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Self aggrandizement, you know, like human potential. So being your best self, being your optimized self, and through that self optimization, you getting the things that your heart desires, which is usually the world. So it might be, and, and some of it is legitimate, like, you know, to, I think I've said a better parent, better business person, a better, just a better person. But it's just like, I don't, I don't know if we were created to be better people. I think we were created to be sacrifices. I think we were created to be servants. I think we were created to love him and honor him. And sometimes that might mean not having a better life. But like, I don't, I don't, I don't know. I, I, I think a lot of the preaching gives us a Jesus who comes alongside us to serve our dreams instead of a Jesus who says, no, I need you to lay everything down to serve mine. You know what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And it's like we talked about this on a plane where it's like there is a sincere and mass blindness to the real state of who Christ is in the world and that he is completely central. He is much like the universe. He is the sun by which we orbit around. And if at any point Pluto wants to lose its mind, it, it's, it's forgotten its place. And it's like your place is to orbit around this. And I think that's what the world is doing is we're not orbiting around the sun. And that's why everything is dysfunctional. That's why everything is chaotic. And I can imagine that people that listen to particular teaching, they might have more self esteem but they do not have more fruit. I guarantee you they might have more money, but they do not have more presence. They might have more stuff, but they do not have more power and strength. Endure the things when the stuff leaves. And that's the problem. To me it's just like we, we're not apprehending him, so we're not actually being satisfied. We're not, we're just being distracted. And I said that as gentle.

[Megan Ashley]

I mean, woo, wait. I said she has the holy.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm being very gentle, but it's.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't think I've ever seen you be that gentle.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's the Holy Spirit, ever. He. And it's because I told you this the other day. Like one of the things that's been sitting on me is how the high priests were called to give sacrifices not only for the people, but for themselves. And in giving sacrifices for themselves, they recognize their own sins and their own weaknesses so that they can serve the people of God with empathy. And I think that's something that the Lord has done in me. It's not to say that people won't get hello. A sword at times, but it is to say that I think the Lord has shown me parts of me that are really weak and fragile where I have more empathy than I did. I just do. And so when he calls me to be Jeremiah, I will. When he calls me to be Aaron, I will. And not the Aaron that built the cat.

[Megan Ashley]

I was about to say he was.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Called to be a high priest, so I'm sure he functioned in inappropriately at some point. Sometimes.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. But I want, I wanted to ask you, kind of getting back on this social media thing. I told you last night that I was studying, getting prepared for Patreon and I was like deeply grieved out of, I don't want to say out of nowhere, but I don't even know what I saw to be honest with you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You remember me?

[Megan Ashley]

I just remember like it was like a gut, like, like I wanted to cry. And there were a few times where I kind of got teary on when I was on live. But we've talked about managing and navigating through influence differently in light of how the Lord has shifted us in particular ways in the last couple of months. And I, I was pleading and admonishing and Encouraging people as gently as I could to be faithful to the Lord over being faithful to the algorithm. And I felt like, yeah, that's. That was the biggest grief. Like, I, like, I felt like the Lord was like, I want them to be more faithful to me than they are to the algorithm.

[Eli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Because I see so many people who I know have solid, like, they're solid.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Good hearts.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

But because the algorithm wants a particular thing, they have changed and modified and you know what I'm saying, their content is different based off of what the algorithm wants. And I, And I just, like. Yeah, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on, like, for content creators, Christian content creators, specifically the world content, y' all do what y' all gotta do. But for Christian content creators, like, how to manage and steward this influence. Well, in light of all the changes that is happening on socials.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I could say a lot. I, I definitely am troubled by. Bothers me, especially as I've seen this rise in content that is provocative and sensational and interesting and clever, but not discipleship focused. Because I think when you get into the nitty gritty of scripture, there's a lot of parts of scripture that are. Are in service to us growing in Christ that are actually boring. That's why we don't read Leviticus. Right. That's why we don't touch places in the Old Testament. That's why we, we only want to go to the parts that stimulate something in us. And I think a lot of the content is curated for that kind of child. Like, that's childish.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

To only want things that's going to entertain you. To only want to keep. Keep busy, keep in, like, all the stuff. And I feel like people are making content to serve people really as a, As a means of serving themselves, rather than making content to actually serve the mission of God, which is to make disciples of all nations, teaching them to obey all that he commanded.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I'm all for being shrewd. Yeah, I'm all for that. To be thoughtful and, you know, think about how to create content in such a way that does keep people engaged. That is interesting. But I am not for content. I don't know how to say it. One that doesn't love and honor people. Because truthfully, Megan, Ashley, here it comes.

[Megan Ashley]

It was brewing. It's all right.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm trying to. I'm trying to think. Bible says be slow to speak, quick to listen, slow to anger. Even these titles.

[Megan Ashley]

I said it. I said, I said it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Even the clickbait, the, The. The COVID images is like we're putting.

[Megan Ashley]

Tears in people's faces.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Some of these titles are lying. Some of them are lying. That's not actually what the clip is about. But you knew I was going to click on it. You're lying, you're bearing false witness. And I don't think the Lord likes it. Right. And so I, I, I think.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's like, man, even your, even your strategies have to be surrendered to the spirit, right?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Even your strategies have to be surrendered to the spirit. And I think, I think people are doing ministry independent of wise counsel. I think y' all are making decisions without asking anybody if it's wise, without asking anybody if it's honorable. I remember there was a one podcaster who had a conversation with somebody I know and value and respect, and the COVID image and the title created opportunity for them to be slandered and talked about and drugged through the mud when that wasn't even what she was talking about. And, and it's all because you wanted a clickbait that you actually dishonored her. You get what I'm saying? And so, like, I think that troubles me that people, it's like objectification.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

In the name of Christian content.

[Megan Ashley]

And that's, and that's something dark about that to me. That is my.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

To get a check.

[Megan Ashley]

These aren't like.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

To get a check.

[Megan Ashley]

These aren't non Christians.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, we're talking about Christians.

[Megan Ashley]

I'm talking about Christians. Be clear.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You want to check that bad that you forgot they were made in the image of God. That's, that's, that's, that's wild to me, but let me get underneath. Let me, let me, let me empathize and call out. It's selfish ambition.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And James says, where there is envy and selfish ambition, there will be every vile practice and disorder. And so you cannot think that you can function in selfish ambition and your life ain't gonna be a mess. God's hand is not gonna bless that. So, yeah, you got a lot of subscribers. Yeah. You got a lot of downloads. But do you have peace? You gotta check. You got a bag. You know the little mid roll ads, they working in your benefit. But do you sense his, his pleasure when you pray? Do you hear them? You know what I'm saying? Is there peace when you talk to people? Is the Holy Spirit flowing through you or is it always strategy? Always. That's a slave. I, You're a slave.

[Megan Ashley]

I'm, I'm gonna be honest and vulnerable when I say that I'm very Troubled by it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You can see it.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't like it.

[Megan Ashley]

I. There, you know, being in this space obviously, is newer for me than a lot of people. And so coming back after the sabbatical, I was, you know, struggling with. Should I. You know, I see how other people move and how other people do podcasting and content and all the things, and I'm like, maybe I'm being too.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Basic.

[Megan Ashley]

No. Yeah. But maybe basic. Maybe I'm being too careful in the sense of, like, how I am very mindful and, you know, how I am, like, I am extremely mindful about everything. And I'm like, you know, I don't. I don't have a guess that I don't put before the Lord.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't have topics that I don't put before the Lord. I don't pray without praying, fast without. I don't do podcasting without praying and fasting. Like, I, Like, I'm so, like, I. I genuinely believe that this platform belongs to the Lord and it is to be stewarded well and to honor Him. I deeply believe that. And in that deep belief, one it has created, you know, in, like, yes. In my flesh, I get irritated when I see that people call themselves Christians, and I don't feel like they're stewarding that in the same way, because I feel like, well, shouldn't we all feel this way? Like, this is to glorify the Lord and we should honor people and use our time and our influence to. To help draw people closer to the Lord in a relationship with Him. Like, they should know scripture. They should know more about Christ and not so much about what the church down the street is doing. And, like, so it irritates me. And then. And then there was a point where I was like, dang, like, I was kind of discouraged. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I. Yeah, it can be discouraging.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Why.

[Megan Ashley]

That there are content Christian content creators that are. And. And. And hear me. Because I am. I'm so grateful. But I. For what I have and love my supporters and listeners and in the community that I've been able to cultivate through. In totality. But when you. When you see other people's numbers in light of yours, you feel like, am I not doing something right?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

And I think that that was that moment that I had yesterday, and I sensed the Lord was like, just be faithful to me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You know what I mean? Like, you. It. You. It may not be the million downloads.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And I don't want you to chase that. Either.

[Eli]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because we're chasing the world.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I think, I think this is. So this is one way we repent of that is to say, if I am a Christian content creator, making content that I have not fasted about that I have not prayed about that I have not sought wise counsel about that I have not went to the scriptures and said, said, does this honor my neighbor? Is it true? Is it edifying? Does it build up the church? Does it make disciples? Does it lift up Christ? Would Christ preach this? Would Christ release that title with cr like yet the title, like, you might have like. And I know, I know I'm harping on titles, but titles are a big thing that drives clicks.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right. And so it's like words, language. Every word you say, including the title, will be judged. So it's like I. I'm saying it on purp. If it does not honor all of those systems, then there's probably some repentance required. And a part of that repentance might be the Holy Spirit saying, where are you? What is that? What is the fear? What is the insecurity? What is it that you're actually after? And I think a lot of people are after security financially. I think a lot of people are after fame, which is really the desire for. Fame is the desire for love. So you want attention, you want affirmation, you want affection. I think a lot of it is also. We talked about this last night. I think some people are finding avenues to walk in their gifts independent of a covering because they don't have to submit to anybody. All they got to do is upload a video. And so that's a lack of patience, that's a lack of submission, that's a lack of even, like, local church order.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so all of that is a thing. And I think we need to ask the question of why is that a thing?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What is it about God that isn't enough for me?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

His attention, his affirmation, his love, his security. Do I believe Matthew 6? Do I believe when it says that like the birds, they need the soul nor reap, but your heavenly Father provides for them. So Even if the YouTube doesn't pay my bills, he will.

[Megan Ashley]

Hello.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

If I honor my neighbor, I can trust he's going to protect me. I can trust he's going to provide for me. I might not have all that I want, but I will be okay.

[Megan Ashley]

I will have what I need.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I. I think those underlying things are what we're seeing. May. May manifest.

[Megan Ashley]

And I want to be clear Because I said this too. We're not, we're not going to just. The Lord isn't just going to judge the content creators, but also the content consumers. So please believe that if you're a Christian, you also will be judged by what you kept.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Say more. Hello, goodbye.

[Megan Ashley]

Because you're, you're, you're the one feeding the, you're feeding the algorithm.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So what is it about the consumer that is intrigued by this content?

[Megan Ashley]

Because it's, it. What is it in Timothy second, First Timothy second, one of them where he's talking about they will acquire. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, teachers through their own passions. Because you, huh, don't have the courage to say it, but you'll watch a bunch of people to say it and then you'll be like, well, they said it, I didn't say. But you watched it. You got your notifications on, you ran to the comments. You, you, you, you, you subscribe to the channel. You like that, you like that type of content and you think that because that person created it that, that they're the only ones that are going to get judged by it. You will too.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Christian consumer, which is Romans 1 where it talk, Let me read it. Just so they don't think you're talking outside of your neck. It says, though they know this is Romans 1, 20, 32. Because you'd be having a little scripture at the bottom like that. Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die. So they are aware of that is wrong. That's unrighteous. They not only do them, but give approval to those who practice them. So our approval, our affirmation matters. It does. And I think some of it is ignorance. And so I hope this conversation brings awareness to the problematic nature of it. So you have to ask the question of is what I'm watching, even if it's Christian content, is it helping me love God better?

[Megan Ashley]

The two greatest commandments, which is love.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

The lawyer God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul, and love your neighbor as yourself. So that's the second question. Is it helping me love my neighbor more? And I know some of y' all, some of you, where's the camera? I know some of y' all are sitting here. I got comfortable. Some of y' all are like, yeah, it's making me, you know, they're watchmen. They're helping me have discernment. They're helping me, you know, know who's false and who's, who's wrong. Jude could help you with that. Too. Ephesians can help you with that too.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, but that also wasn't the question. What is it helping you love God.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

More, but they think it's helping them love God more and helping them love their neighbor for specifically content related to the. You know. You know how I feel about the whole false prophets and people so called having words from the Lord at 2:30 in the morning. All the stuff like, how is this cultivating godliness? Love for neighbor, love for Christ. It's like the way we be talking about monitoring spirits and you don't even know what lamentation says. The way we be talking about astral projection and you ain't sat through one book of Revelation yet to the way we be talking about all these different dimensions and different realms, but you are still mean to your husband. The way we be talking about demons and authorities and principalities and powers, but you don't know what justification is. You can't explain to me propitiation. You ain't never mentioned atonement ever. And neither has the prophet. I ain't never heard them preach the gospel. I ain't never heard them pray for the people they call out. Interesting. Even Stephen prayed for people stoning him. So to me, that gives me insight. I'm just irritated, but we can move on. This is why I'm irritated. I just have to be honest.

[Megan Ashley]

I think sometimes you just gotta pause, give her a second, shoot to jump right back in. Good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I guess. Because it's all deception. I think that's what's here. That's.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. It's like we talked about that. The craftiness of it all. It's the exception. Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And it's like y' all don't see it.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I guess I think that's what concerns me is that we're getting caught up in Starbucks cups and Nike shoes and we're just. We're getting so distracted by the stuff we don't see. Like. No. Like, if people are not training me to love God and love my neighbor according to scripture, in a way that looks like Jesus, in a way that cost me something, in a way that I have to deny myself in a way that I had to probably fast. In a way where I got to forget. If they are not training me to do that, I should not listen to them. I don't care how powerful they seem.

[Megan Ashley]

Period.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Even the devil disguises himself as an angel of light. Y' all can't see him.

[Megan Ashley]

They're like, oh, that's nice. At 2 and 2 in the morning.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That was. Oh, sh. That was so powerful. Why? You know what's powerful? Death. Yep. Dying to yourself.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's powerful.

[Megan Ashley]

Forgiveness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Jesus ain't even have a bed. Yeah. Greatest in the kingdom is servant of all. It's like, all the stuff in scripture that is actually Christian. That's not the stuff we're lifting up.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So.

[Megan Ashley]

And I. I think. I think what I am realizing is that there are. Because there was a lot that was happening, the shift. Right. That was happening in those who I feel like, are genuinely seeking the Lord, not. Not just his gifts and his. What he can give us. You know what I'm saying? That would make us look away, but, like, genuinely just wanting the Lord.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Him.

[Megan Ashley]

Just him. Like, genuinely just wanting him. And I remember even being convicted about, like, the. Like, even in. Sometimes in my prayer time, the Lord was like. Like, you rarely just come to me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

For me.

[Megan Ashley]

Like, it's always to get something. I need this. I need this. I need this. I need this. And it's like, you rarely just. I'm rarely enough for you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Delight yourself in the Lord. That part. And then he'll give you.

[Megan Ashley]

Right. Like, how. How often are you going to the Lord with praise? Now? I'm not saying don't petition the Lord.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

Make your request known.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Right.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes, for sure. But are there ever times where you just praise?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You just sit. Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I'm literally like. And there was something that I remember, I think I told you about this. This story I heard of this guy who grew up in church, parents saved, whatever. He walked away from the faith, was out in the streets acting crazy. And he said that God told his parents, don't pray for him for three days, Jesus. Okay, but just praise me. And he ended up coming back home, coming back to the faith, all the things. And so when there was a situation that happened with my son.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

A couple months ago.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

That story came up in me, and all I wanted to do was just beg the Lord to help my kid and to help me help him. And to all the things, like, nothing pains you more than to see the enemy after your child. There's nothing that, like, pains you more. And that story came back to me. And I remember, I was like, I'm gonna try this, because I'm just. I. I just so happen. I don't even know who the guy is. So there's a reason why I came across that. I'm gonna put this into practice. I'm just gonna praise. Like, I. I got before the Lord, and I wanted to petition so bad. I wanted to ask I wanted to beg. I wanted to even to lament.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And that came to my memory, and all I did was praise. And when I tell you something, I don't know what it was, but something happened on the ins. Like, I felt so much closer to him than I had ever felt before by simply just being about him, making it about him. It wasn't about anything else. And in. And even in that, the Lord was doing stuff that I didn't even have to ask for, simply because I just praised him for who he was, which means that I. I aligned my heart and my mind with the truth of his character. So even in not asking for anything, my heart and my mind was praising him, coming into alignment with who he was. And even in that, my petition was made known.

[Eli]

Yes. Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

And he. And he did a bunch of stuff. But I. I feel like I want. I want, even in this episode, like, I don't want people to hear criticism because it's not even that. It's like, I want people to evaluate where they are in their hearts and repent for. You know what I'm saying? Like, are you. Like, where. Where are you?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Adam.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Where are you?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Where are you at in your heart? Evaluate, like, what. What is satisfying me that shouldn't satisfy me.

[Eli]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

What is not grieving me, that should grieve me.

[Eli]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

What. You know, what am I consuming?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

That I shouldn't be. What am I creating that I shouldn't be? You know what I'm saying? Like, going back to.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I just searched my heart. Oh, Lord. And that is scary. You know, I don't think we talk enough about the courage it takes to repent.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, repentance is an act of courage, therefore, faith. Because the way I describe it is I've had moments where, like, I went through this process of forgiving people in December, which was a big part of the shift, where I wrote down a list of everybody I had offenses against, and I processed out loud what they did to offend me, and then I had to confess out loud and say, I forgive them. But it was. It was. It was. It was. Some people. It took 20 minutes for me to actually say I forgive because it felt like I was relinquishing control. It felt like I was giving them room to, Like, I felt like vengeance was mine, even though it was invisible, it was just not me. Holding this in my heart makes me feel just like there's some kind of justice. And so it's like, it felt like to say it was jumping off a cliff yeah. Like, that's. But I think repentance is like that, where it's like, I don't even know what's on the other side of this level of honesty. I don't even know what's on the other side of this confession. I don't know what's on the other side of the surrender. What I do know what's on the other side is him. Right. And so if we want him, if we want him, this is how we have him. Because repentance is a. A decision we make in our mind to move differently.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's just. But that comes by proxy of looking to him and saying, you know, I think you're good. I think you are. So I just want to read this real quick because I think it might even be helpful for people to walk through and read and pray through Psalm 51, you know what I'm saying? Because he's like, this is Paul, not Paul. This is David after he sexually abuses Bathsheba. Let's be clear. Like, that was. He used his. He abused his power. And he says, have mercy on me, oh God, according to your steadfast love, according to your abundance, abundant mercy. Blot out my transgressions. Pause. Look at what. What he says. God has steadfast love, abundant mercy. Okay. He's good. He's able to forgive. He has mercy for me. He has love for me. Blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity. Cleanse me from my sin. Meaning I can't do it. I can't wash myself.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I can't cleanse myself.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I can't fix myself. I am completely reliant on him to help me in that way. For I know my transgression and my sin is ever before me, all up in my face, all up in my mind, all up in my heart against you only have I sinned and done what was evil in your sight. Notice what he calls it. He calls it by name. We be calling it mistakes.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep. Hello.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

We be calling it a struggle.

[Megan Ashley]

I told you I was.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I know. We give our sin pretty names.

[Megan Ashley]

Oh, we.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so because we give our sin pretty names, we don't produce the amount of contrition that would happen if we were more accurate. It's wicked. It's evil, it's perversion. It's idolatry. When you call that thing by its name, you might actually see how much like a vomit it is. For I know my transgressions and my sin is ever before me. Against you. I Have sinned and done what is evil in your sight thus so that you may just maybe justified in your words and blameless in your judgment. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity. And in my sin did my mother conceive me. Pause. You. I. I think a part of a struggle in repentance, too.

[Megan Ashley]

Oh.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm saying a lot.

[Megan Ashley]

Is.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Our therapeutic age where we root so many sinful issues and trauma, where the trauma gives us an excuse away from repentance.

[Megan Ashley]

Correct.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So. And I do the same thing.

[Megan Ashley]

Correct.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I did that because my mama. I did it because my daddy. I did that because old girl betrayed me. I did that because that person walked out. That's cool. That is. I'm not saying trauma doesn't affect our brains, affect how we show up, affect how our affections. It does. But when you look at scripture, it will always root our behavior in our sinful nature. It is much like the dude at the pool of Bethesda. Jesus is over here like, hey, do you want to be healed? He like, man, I ain't actually where. I ain't asked you about why you are the way you are. I said, do you want to change? That's the question. All right. You gotta open. Gotta open it back up.

[Megan Ashley]

I need a second.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because.

[Megan Ashley]

Because truthfully, what happened to you may not have been your fault.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Correct.

[Megan Ashley]

But because God allowed it, it is your responsibility.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because even how I responded to my trauma was offensive. We don't want to have. We don't want to have that conversation. And it means that there is something impulsive in me by default, where I respond to pain by sinning against God. That's how I respond to suffering. You know what I'm saying? So I need to be changed so I can respond. Because trauma ain't gonna stop. It's gonna keep happening because people are still sinful. But I have, like, something has to happen in me so that as the pain comes, I still love him. That's why I got to be washed. Okay. I'm sorry. I'm getting excited. It says, behold, I was brought forth in iniquity and in sin. Did my mother conceive me? That's the root of why we do what we do. He says, behold, you delight in truth in the inward being, and you teach me wisdom and the secret heart. Purge me with hyssop and I shall be clean. Wash me and I shall be wider than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness. Let the bones that you have broken rejoice. Man, sin takes away peace. It takes away joy like I remember being in worship. I mean, like, dang, like, I don't care about this song. Like that.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, you're in. A few times in church.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't care. Like that. It's not moving me. And the Holy Spirit is here. I've just quenched him. And I've quenched Him because I'm still holding onto stuff in my heart that he told me to repent of. And so there is a sense where he is withdrawing his presence. He's still with me. He'll never leave me nor forsake me. But the sweetness of his presence is not there because I keep resisting Him. That's why he's like, let me hear joy, Let me hear gladness Let the bones that you have broken rejoice Hide your face from my sin Blot out my iniquities. Come on. Fr. Hammond created me a clean heart and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from your present like, then I will teach trans transgressors your ways. It's just like, he is so great, where the same thing that you had to repent of is the same thing. He will train you to help other people get out of that. That is. That. Is that not every Christian story?

[Megan Ashley]

Oh, my God.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's like, oh, my God.

[Megan Ashley]

You can actually do it with conviction. Yeah. Tell us. Not just by knowledge, but now you get to do it from a place of conviction.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

And that's different and authentic authority.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You cannot have an authority over what you're still a slave to. People can sense that. Oh, that authority is in your voice, not in the spirit. There's a different authority you have when you're actually holy. Jesus walked around. Where did he get his authority from? He's God. That's where he got his authority from. And some of us, we want. That's why we. We take up these certain supernatural gifts, because we want to have a power and an authority that did not come from weakness, that did not come from humility, that did not come from intimacy. But the Lord is like, not if you just knew me.

[Megan Ashley]

What Paul say, I'm a boast in my weakness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, he did. And guess what? He. He was over here walking past people and healing them. Why? Because he was close. He was close. He wasn't chasing power, he was chasing God. And by chasing God, he had power. So I know if you.

[Megan Ashley]

If you caught it, you caught it. If your mitt was up. Did you have your mitt?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Your mitt.

[Megan Ashley]

It. You caught it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, I was like, what are you talking about?

[Megan Ashley]

Oh, that's good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So Psalm 51. Read through it, pray through it, process it. The Lord is kind. Let me see it. Let me see it real quick.

[Megan Ashley]

You have your own Bible.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's closed now. Just one more. One more, one more. Verse 16 and 17.

[Megan Ashley]

I wish I had my Bible.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You don't need it. It's in your heart. You do not want a sacrifice or I would give it. Remember, this is Old Testament. Jesus ain't come yet, so he is requiring sacrifices. You are not pleased with a burnt offering. It's like, yeah, you can do all the outward religious symbols of consecration. I gave you my worship in church. I gave you my gifts. I got the podcast. I did all the stuff. It's like, he doesn't want that more than this. The sacrifice. Pleasing to God is a broken spirit. You will not despise a broken and humbled heart. And I think that has been ministry to me, where it's like, I'm in this place where I feel more weak than I used to feel. I feel more. I don't feel holy. And it's not that I'm not holy. I'm actually repenting and choosing to walk contrary to my impulses, but there's this awareness of my brokenness and my weakness and my fragility that has me. It can make me feel crazy. Like, am I, like, often? It's like, no, that's where I want you to be broken and contract, because that's where you're dependent. That's where you're needy. That's where I want you. I don't want you to actually think you're stronger than what you are. I want you to know exactly how you are, which is a child.

[Megan Ashley]

So that's what Paul, Paul Washer says. I. I contribute nothing to my salvation but my sins. I contribute nothing to my ministry but my weakness.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, that. I feel that.

[Megan Ashley]

That. It's like I don't have nothing. I have nothing to offer but my weakness. I did nothing but be a sinner.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Literally.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's funny, like, even the other day I was praying. I think I had to teach or something. And it's wild that I never. You. I never prayed this way. I was like, lord, you don't have to. I said, but I pray that according to your mercy, you'll use me.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. I remember you saying that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I never. It makes me emotional. I never used to pray that. It was like this expectation that he should. But it's like now it's like, no, I know myself enough to know you should not use me. So if you're willing.

[Megan Ashley]

If you would be so calm, if.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You'Re willing to use me, I'm here.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's the difference.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. I think that seeing this level of weakness in you has been. It's been beautiful to see this level of, like, vulnerability and even transparency, just, like, privately, just how you have moved, like.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You know, and I. And I feel like there are so many. I. I don't want people to hear me say this. Yes, she's my best friend, so I'm going gas her on just some whatever. But in. In all honesty, because there are so many voices, and I just. I always want to add to the positive narrative and the truth of who you are, because I know you privately and that you are a woman of integrity and someone who is deeply after honoring the Lord. And I don't care what anybody says, because I believe I know you in ways that people don't know you for sure. And I'm always. I always want to take the opportunity to say that. That I have deep respect for you because of your integrity and the way that you love the Lord and the way that you are always after pursuing. Honoring him and all that you do.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And even the stuff that people don't see.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Most of it.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes. So I just. I always want to. I always want to contribute to that narrative because of all the other ugly stuff that's out there.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I appreciate that, everybody. Very godly woman. I don't know what you had up your sleeve.

[Megan Ashley]

Go ahead.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

But I. I asked Megan Ashley, cuz I podcast too, and you don't say. And I'm a. I'm inquisitive. And so I was like, hey, can I interview you? And she gave me. She gave me 20 minutes.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, but you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I mean, how much time we got?

[Megan Ashley]

You can go whenever.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Oh, we had an hour and a half. That's typical. You gonna time it? You should probably time it.

[Megan Ashley]

20 minutes. Go ahead.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

The way I've got.

[Megan Ashley]

I got it.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Okay, first question.

[Megan Ashley]

And this is probably stuff you already know, so I don't even know why.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Doesn't matter.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I just. I just wanted.

[Megan Ashley]

Y' all see her nails? Go ahead and show the camera your nails real quick.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, I feel insecure.

[Megan Ashley]

She got cheap.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

So I. I was praying because I was like, lord, you know, I could be silly. I don't want to ask this. This girl, you know, what contour you wore today? And stupid stuff like that or stuff that people already know. Because I was like, I feel like a part one thing I'm always trying to do with you, even when you were on with the Perrys, is to give you questions that people don't ask. I feel like people ask a lot of the same stuff when it's like, there's so much to your life that people don't. They're just not curious about, and they should be. Um, but when I was praying, what came to my mind? I just woke up this morning at 5:30, literally, and I was just like, huh. I want to ask her, like, questions as it relates to the prodigal son. And my first question is, do you relate to him? Like, have you ever thought about that parable and thought about yourself?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, I think when it comes to the prodigal son, I have. I. I can relate to it. And in this season of my life, I feel like I've been able to relate to it from all narratives. So as the prodigal son, clearly, that's my life.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And as a parent, in what way? Oh, because just the compat. Yeah. The parenting, like the. The father, like, yes, if my son comes home, like, that would be my response. Then also as the other brother, which is truly who Jesus was highlighting in that parable. So now in my life, I feel like I've been able to relate to all three narratives, but specifically when it comes to the. To the prodigal son, I think that in this season of my life, with having this platform and the doors that have been open to me and the way that God has been gracious to me, it hits different. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, the. The prodigal son comes home with the intentions of just being a servant, and he's received as a son. And so I feel like that, like, I. I said yes to the Lord with the intentions on just being a servant, because. Hired hand, I'll clean the toilets. Whatever you want me to do.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't like. And he's like, no. Like, I'm throwing a party. Here's the robe. Get the fattest cat. All the things we're going, like we're at. We're celebrating this because, like, you're my. You're my kid.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You're my daughter. I love you. And so I think that in this season of experiencing God's unmerited favor, receiving his generosity, that he did not have to give me.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Because although my heart was far from the Lord, I was raised in a way where I also knew better. Yeah, to an extent.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Right. So I didn't, you know, it wasn't like I was ignorant of him.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

So, yeah, I think that that has deeply. Probably that part of the. The story that return. You know, the picture of the king.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Getting up and running and, you know, just like that. I. Yeah, I relate to that more now in this season than I ever have her hearing that parable.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

One of. One of our. I think, first trips together was. It might have been to Liberty. I think it was. That was our second trip. And you show me this video of you, like, leading.

[Megan Ashley]

You are a jerk.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm not going.

[Megan Ashley]

You are a jerk. You know, and this is why you can't be vulnerable with people.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, she. I'm not even.

[Megan Ashley]

It's the fact you're still laughing. You are a jerk.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm gonna just say you. I'm gonna just say old school. Megan Ashley Brooks just looked. Was you, Brooke.

[Megan Ashley]

No, I was Marbury.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You just. The hair was different. But you. You was leading a dance team. And I remember you saying how in that season, you took your commitment to leadership in the church very seriously, how you wouldn't drink wine, how you would always be available to answer people's calls. Like, you moved in a certain kind of way. And I could see people who were under your leadership that when you drifted, were surprised or intrigued. Like, she was so locked in. She was so this. So that. And I'm wondering when you returned to the Lord on the porch, what it is that you know about him now that would keep you from drifting under similar circumstances if they happened again? Does that make sense, what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

What's the difference in your intimacy with God now versus then?

[Megan Ashley]

Honestly, I feel like. I feel like it's kind of what I said at ACTS in the sense of, like, community and discipleship. Like, I feel like knowing. Knowing the Lord and being taught how to read Scripture and interpret Scripture. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, knowing that my. My life, like, I was created for him from. I was created by him for him, and that my life isn't about me.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Did you think it was about you then?

[Megan Ashley]

I think. I think. I don't. I don't know if I thought that my life fully was about me, but I don't think I was trained to know that it was fully about him.

[Eli]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying? And so when it's. When that is not the main thing, then it gives room for other things.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's great.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, I thought that my, you know, the proof of my relationship with the Lord was my healthy marriage or my, you know, whatever. Me serving in church or the things, the works of it all. And not a work that he did in me and does in me for his glory. I think that. You know what I'm saying? So I think that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Were you serving from a place of worship?

[Megan Ashley]

No, I was serving from a place of need. I needed to be seen, I needed to be affirmed because I knew that the. I knew that I had. I felt things very deeply about the Lord, but I wasn't. The Lord didn't. The Lord didn't gift me in the ways that I only thought you could be used in church.

[Eli]

That's deep. Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You know, I wasn't the singer.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

You know, I could dance. But like that's not a gift that's really used in the church like that. I knew I had a gift to communicate, but there. But no one wanted to teach me and train me in that. Like nobody, you know, nobody wanted to call those and cultivate like disciple me and cultivate things in me.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And so what I knew I was really good at was serving.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Now that I know I'm good at. And so I'm just gonna do all the things. I'm gonna serve, serve, serve, and I'm gonna be the first one there, last one to leave and I'm gonna do extra. And you know, and all because I wanted to someone to say, I see you and the Lord's pleased with you.

[Eli]

And did you get that?

[Megan Ashley]

I mean, I think I. People like when I would do. When I would do certain things like the dance team, when I was over the dance team, you know, that was like. There was affirmation in that. But yeah, it felt like it was only. Like I was only needed or valued or loved when it was attached to something I was doing.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because it sounds like even ministry in that season was from a place of neediness.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And not security.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. For sure.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Which would mean that there was access because it's still self centered.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so somebody from the ons, from the outside could have been like, Megan is like serving. She doing all the stuff. She over here. Because you was also admin for the pastor. You doing the dance team. You in Bible college. You're doing all the stuff. But your heart was probably still far from him because the attention is on what you can receive from the people and probably what you can earn from him.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Through the service rather than. I think the difference now it's from a place of. It's just different.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, it is. It is truly from. Because, like. Like I said again, Romans 12, present yours, therefore present yourselves as a living sacrifice, for that is your true worship. Now I know what worship is, and it's my life. Being laid down at the altar for the Lord every single day, that is my worship. Loving my neighbor is my worship. Forgiving is my worship. My spiritual disciplines is my worship. Loving my kids, Discipling my is my worship. Being mindful of this platform and. And saying, lord, it's not mine, but it's yours. So who do you want me to give a guest to and telling my new production team, don't ever create a thumbnail for me. That's clickbaity. Don't ever do it. I don't like that. Don't you know, like, every. Like that is true worship. So now I know what true worship is, and it's me dying.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

My question to that, because it pairs with what I was thinking, is like, one thing about the prodigal son. He asked the father for his share of the assets. He takes the assets. He goes to a different country, he spends all the stuff. And even prodigal has two meanings. It means like, someone who was reckless, but also someone who was lost. And so he takes all this stuff and he goes and spends it. Then this famine hits the country, and he's like, dang, like, I ain't got no money. I'm just out here. And so he works with his Negro who wants him to feed the pigs. He probably wouldn't. Negro, he's probably from, like, Zebulun or something. But, like, he. He works with the pig man, and it says that he wanted the pig's food, but nobody would give it to him. And then he comes to his senses and says, my daddy got food. Like, he got, like, great food, all the stuff. I'm wondering how your appetite has changed, you know what I'm saying? Because it's like you were obviously hungry and thirsty for a lot of things and probably satisfied with. With food that was beneath your calling, but now you have a different appetite, I guess. What's that experience like of hungering for things that are different?

[Megan Ashley]

I think. I think it's the. You know, the scripture that says, taste and see that the Lord is good. I think it's like the moment that you even physically, the moment that you taste something that is really good for the first time, then everything that is, like, low quality just don't hit the same no more. Do you know what I'm saying?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like the McGriddle. Yeah, I mean.

[Megan Ashley]

I mean, I Ain't gonna hold you.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's kind of good. We should probably go get one with bacon and sausage.

[Megan Ashley]

That's hunger talking.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It is.

[Megan Ashley]

But it's like. Okay, so it's like eating, eating, eating a ribeye at, like, Texas Roadhouse.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I got some good bread, great bread.

[Megan Ashley]

And the steaks ain't even that bad. But then you go to, like, what's that steakhouse we went to in Atlanta that was like.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't remember, but yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Extremely expensive.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Fantastic.

[Megan Ashley]

But fan tastes tastic.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

So it's like, for me, like, being on the porch, it was like I tasted and I saw that he was good.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

And I can never change. Like, I cannot change my taste buds again. Like, I like anything less than him. Tastes really bad.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Do you ever see people who are hungry in the same ways that you were? And, like, do you notice it currently?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like. Cause you know how, you know, like, for me, because I was a slave to sexual sin, because I was in that world, I do have a keen eye towards struggles that aren't even obvious.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And it's not even, like, gestures. I can just see it.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, do you. Do you see that you just have an awareness of people who had that, that. That. Who have an appetite that hasn't been satiated yet?

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, I think that I. Number one, I think that the Lord has graciously already gifted me with, like, discernment and wisdom, but it just wasn't mature. So I think I was always able to pick up on stuff. Like, I was off. You know what I'm saying? So now. So now I think it. It's more heightened because I'm more submitted. So I can see. I can see and sense things. And I think. Yeah, I think that I have a more sensitivity and awareness for people who have grown up in the church.

[Eli]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

That are living a very particular Christian context. That may not be what the Lord actually wants for them.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Explain, please.

[Megan Ashley]

So, please. So, like, like, going back to what we were talking about. Like, you. You live in a very comfortable state of your relationship with the Lord when you really should be desperate. And you're not.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, you're only desperate when stuff hits. Something happens.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

So again, going back to, like. Like, I think for me, I try to live in the way that. Which I told you my mom dealt with me when I had the C section, where it was like. Or not the C section. Well, yeah, the C section. And in. Just in general, when I would be in pain or have surgeries or whatever. And I would have to take the medicine. And she would say, you got to get ahead of it.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Don't wait until the pain hits to take the medication because you're going to be in pain and you got to wait for it to kick in. Right. Like, you got to get ahead of it. So take it before you're in pain. I think, like, even in my relationship with the Lord, it's like, I realize and I understand that suffering is going to happen, and I'm in constant need of him, so I stay in constant relationship with him and I don't wait for something to happen.

[Eli]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

And I feel like I see a lot of people who. I'm like, yeah, you go to church, you got the family, you got all the things, but you move in a way where I don't see that you are actually needy. Do you see what I'm saying? I don't know if that makes sense, but it's like, you. I don't. Like. Like, this is like, you approach casual. Because you approach him.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Casual, casual Christianity.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And casual Christianity is a result of you seeing him casually.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It might not be Christianity at all.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Eli]

It's.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like, there's this. I see, like. And even. Even being insensitive to, like, the time that we're in. Like, I feel so burdened and grieved for so much. And one. Just the Lord and so many. Like. Yeah, I. Yeah, because.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Because to me, it says that the Lord in his sanctifying and. And you're surrendering and all the things he's using everything you do to train people to not be what you were.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Do you get what I'm saying? And so it's like your experience. Like, I love. I just. I don't know. I just love how in the kingdom of God, nothing is wasted. So even your experiences as an administrator, even your experiences as a leader of the dance team, even your experiences in marriage, your experience, all your failures, he still uses. And so it's just like, even that world, before this world is made, you a very equipped disciple maker. And like. Like, you have an eye and language for stuff where you can help people in ways that other people just can't.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And so I think.

[Megan Ashley]

And I feel. I feel very convicted to be. Like, I was when we were at the. At the church and I was talking to Lena, I was just like, I just have very deep convictions about honoring the Lord in totality.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I just do. Like, I Have very deep. Like, I. I don't believe that it's too much to make everything about him that's reality. I just don't.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't believe it's too much to consider how you approach your content by considering what's honoring to him. I don't think that that's too much. I don't think it's too much to be mindful of your heart posture all the time in every circumstance. I don't think it's too much to pray before you have a conversation.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Is. Is reasonable.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying? Like Romans 12. Like, I, I. So I think my biggest struggle is learning how to maintain tension between the reality and the conviction of what I know and the empathy for what people have not come to yet.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's great.

[Megan Ashley]

And I'm trying to learn how to have to hold the tension.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

In the balance of that. Yeah. Because. Because I feel things intensely. I can be an extremist. And so I'm trying to do better with, like, I want you to be at a better knowledge, but I don't want to. I want to be mindful of how I approach those conversations and even on this platform, how I say things, because I still want to move in a way, again, that's honoring him and loving people.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

If you. Last question. If you were to meet that Megan, you know, who is active in the church, who is submitted to their leadership, albeit problematic leadership, but that's another story for another day. You know what I'm saying? Serving in all the ways while carrying a lot. You're carrying a lot emotionally, mentally, and no one's asking questions about where you are. Right. And so I think that was a big part in your. Of your spiritual decline. If you were to meet that Megan, how would you communicate repentance to her? Like, what does she need to. How does she need to think. And let me be more specific. How does she need to think about the Father to come to him? Because to me, the prodigal son, it says he came to his senses, so he sees the father accurately, therefore he goes to the Father. You know what I'm saying? And so what is some ways that you might have saw the father inaccurately that you would have needed to correct if you talked to her?

[Megan Ashley]

I think for. Like, if I were to meet myself in that time or anyone in that place, I think I would share the gospel. Like, I. I think that would be. I think that's the thing. Like, sharing the God. Like, as simple as that might sound. But like sharing the gospel. Like this. Go, God did this for you.

[Eli]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Like this God, he died, you know, and he rose, you know.

[Eli]

Huh.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And he feels. Go ahead.

[Megan Ashley]

And he. And he's not mad at you. You know what I'm saying? Yes. He. You know, he's angry at the wicked. Yeah. So I. Yes, that. But, like, he's. He radically loves you. Like, his love is relentless and it's radical and it's available to you, and everything that you are desiring is in him. And I would have trained me to learn how to suffer. Well, I think that's the biggest thing. I think that is the reason why there are so many people that are deconstructing right now is because they don't know how to suffer.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Well.

[Megan Ashley]

They just don't.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

They don't.

[Megan Ashley]

And I think that if we would teach people at a young age, I. I had to have this conversation with Eli where I was like, and even if the Lord doesn't take it away.

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Hebrew boys, huh? Even if he doesn't.

[Megan Ashley]

Even if he doesn't. Right. He's still worthy of your complete devotion. And his word isn't a lie. And he's still a healer and a redeemer and a comforter. Even if you have, like. Even if the most painful thing happens. Do you know what I mean? I think I would constantly, like, if I had to disciple me and in all of the stages of my life, I would constantly repeat that over and over again. So when you get this son that you prayed for and he has two incurable diagnosis. God is still a healer. He still loves you. He's still for you. Like, I would just constantly repeat and, And, And. And convey the character of God over and over and over and over and over again and that. And impress that he's worthy of your complete devotion, regardless if you experience from him what you want to experience from him in the particular ways you want it, when you want it. Does that make sense?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Perfect sense.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That's not. That's all I got for my Q A. I'm done.

[Megan Ashley]

Oh, is this the.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

That was praise. But I just. I wanted to keep it going because he's worthy and what you said was good, you know, and you got your hairs on your silk press. Huh? On your new couch.

[Megan Ashley]

You couldn't help yourself, and you killed.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

In your kiss crew neck. Huh?

[Megan Ashley]

You didn't have to say that.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

It's nice. I was there. We got it. But it hit different off the rack. It's like, oh, that's nice. I feel like I want it now. I like that. This I saved. You are, though. She. She saw it on the rack and. Because it's like. It's like. It's like some dude on there who painted whatever that is. And she was like, who is that, though? It was like, let me Google. I was like, he's just an artist. She was like. He was like, so he don't represent nothing crazy. He was. I don't want no witches on my back now. I don't want no sorcerers on my body so that. That man, you as modest in every way.

[Megan Ashley]

Seriously, I don't want to.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I understand.

[Megan Ashley]

You didn't open up all types of doors.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You picked it up and you was like, who is this? I don't know who this is. I don't know what this represents. It's like, he's a painter. I love it.

[Megan Ashley]

I said, but he didn't do nothing crazy, right?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No, he's just a painter. He's just a painter celebrating blackness. Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Well, this was fun. Do you feel relieved?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm about to say, come on, bro.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you feel relieved? Like, I mean, this is only a raindrop in the bucket.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Maybe it is, because I can go deeper on each thing we touched on, but, yeah. Yeah. I feel like, all right, let's get this party started.

[Megan Ashley]

What do you want people to walk away with?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah, we just need to get back to the basics of the Christian faith. Who is Christ? What does he require? What does it mean to follow him? And that's it. Like, all the other things are good. Spiritual warfare is good. Serving in the church is good. Making content is good. All of those are good. But he. He has to be the aim. And so that even. That even, like, when he's the aim, then what we do can actually be good and useful. And so I just. I just want us to get back to simplicity, because I think I said this when we did the. The call with Eric Mason, and he was like, what do churches and, you know, leaders need to do? Or something like that. I was like, I feel like we're not talking about the cross.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Like, we're not talking about the cross a lot. And so even just that, like, what is. What happened at the cross? Why does. Why does. Why does communion matter? Like, to. To take of the blood and the body? Like, just.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, basic.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Basic Christian faith.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And I started.

[Megan Ashley]

I think. I think that that would be, like, a good. Because I know you ain't gonna do no journal prompt, but I think that would be, like, a good. Yeah, it's like, do I know the basics of my faith?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Do I believe?

[Eli]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

The basics.

[Eli]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Of my faith.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

And is that enough?

[Megan Ashley]

And is that. And is that enough? And I'm just gonna add on in Psalms 51, in light of Psalms 51, asking the Lord to search your heart. Like, read Psalms 51. Yeah. Do as much background commentary, all the things as you can to know what's happening. And is that, like, in light of that, where are you?

[Eli]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

In your heart, in your relationship and your walk. Where are you?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

And. And is the Lord requiring, like, being. Being courageous enough to ask for the. To ask the Lord.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

For. Let me see your phone.

[Megan Ashley]

Clarity. And it's over here. Clarity and wisdom on what he might want you to give up.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I got a song.

[Megan Ashley]

Oh, God. Where is your phone?

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm paying attention to you. I didn't bring my. My phone on the white couch. I'm sorry. What's the. What's the people name? I keep talking. I wanted to play a song.

[Megan Ashley]

I don't have anything else to say.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I wanted to be like background music. Jesus Christ. You.

[Megan Ashley]

Jacky. I'm going give five seconds and I'm not going to be able to monetize off this.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

You right. It's going to flag it.

[Megan Ashley]

Say yes. Like, I'm mindful.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Yeah. 10. 10 seconds. But for real, that I feel like that song was the thing.

[Megan Ashley]

Like, yes. What do you want from me, Lord?

[Eli]

Yeah.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Is there more than I require? A fe. Like the.

[Megan Ashley]

And for the content creator.

[Eli]

Go ahead.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Go ahead. I just got.

[Megan Ashley]

And for the content creators, ask the Lord to search your heart and how you're creating content. And for the content consumer, ask the Lord to search your heart for how you're consuming content.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Amen.

[Megan Ashley]

So thanks for joining.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

No problem.

[Megan Ashley]

I'm glad you like the new couch, the new setup.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I'm gonna sleep in one day. I'm gonna pull these up and get a little blanket. A little blanket with all the faces on it.

[Megan Ashley]

That couch in there is way more comfortable than this one.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

Correct. But I just want to be facetious, so.

[Megan Ashley]

All right, y' all, thanks for joining me. And my bestie. I think this is probably part two, so it's gotta be.

[Jackie Hill Perry]

I don't know how long there's a whole Titanic. But what they expect. We. We Tim Ross in it. Ours. Bye.

[Megan Ashley]

What's up, you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow into Tality podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow into Tality on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.