EP 89: Rebranding the Church: Living as Ambassadors ft. Dr. Eric Mason

Summary

Podcast Summary: In Totality with Megan Ashley

Episode 89: Rebranding the Church: Living as Ambassadors ft. Dr. Eric Mason

Release Date: September 23, 2025
Host: Megan Ashley
Guest: Dr. Eric Mason

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Overview

In this episode, Megan Ashley welcomes back Dr. Eric Mason to discuss his new book, "Rebranding the Church." Together, they explore what it means for Christians—and the Church as a whole—to act as “ambassadors” of Christ in today’s world, covering themes like joy as a spiritual discipline, the boundaries of Christian liberty, the role of modesty, church membership, countercultural living, and the responsibilities of representation, particularly in the digital age.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Joy and Enjoyment as a Spiritual Discipline

• Dr. Mason opens with a reflection on the overlooked spiritual discipline of “enjoyment,” sharing how, during a time of depression, God reminded him of the biblical command and freedom to enjoy life’s good things (03:04).
  • Quote:

    "The lost spiritual discipline is enjoyment... One of the things Satan’s trick was to make Adam and Eve think that God didn’t want them to enjoy everything when enjoyment was a command."
    — Dr. Eric Mason (03:04-06:48)

• He grounds this in scripture (Genesis 2, 1 Timothy 6, 1 Timothy 4), highlighting that enjoyment is about being satisfied with what God has allowed, not overindulgence (06:48-08:09).
  • Quote:

    "Enjoyment is being satisfied with what God has given you the freedom to do."
    — Dr. Eric Mason (07:12)

2. Boundaries: Enjoyment vs. Idolatry & Selfish Ambition

• Megan asks about the tension between enjoying life’s pleasures and making them idols (08:16).

• Dr. Mason draws a distinction: overindulgence is a warning sign, and God’s boundaries should inform Christian freedom (08:37-09:51).

  • Quote:

    "Anything that is a preoccupation away from [God]...that’s when you know there’s an issue."
    — Dr. Eric Mason (08:48)

• Megan connects daily activities (such as getting her nails done) to Christian witness—using enjoyment as an opportunity to be “with” God and open to sharing the gospel (10:23).

3. Modesty, Representation, and the Burden of Visibility

• The discussion pivots to the public roles of Christians, especially content creators (14:09-19:10).

• Megan asks whether a Christian content creator's platform must always be "about Christ" (15:24-16:43).

• Dr. Mason explains that while not all content must be explicitly religious, integrity and alignment with Christian values are non-negotiable. Leisure or professional content can exist, but worldview and ethics must remain uncompromised (16:43-19:58).

  • Quote:

    "I don’t think your social media platform has to be a pulpit... If it’s excellent, has integrity, and doesn’t violate scripture."
    — Dr. Eric Mason (19:56-20:02)

• The conversation deepens as they explore “brand ambassadorship” for Christ—using the analogy of corporate brand ambassadors and how personal choices reflect on the faith (14:47-16:43, 20:15).

  • Megan notes the importance of how Christians are perceived, especially leaders (21:03).

4. Pastors, Modesty, and Status Symbols

• Megan and Dr. Mason discuss criticism of pastors wearing expensive brands (21:03-25:46).

  • Dr. Mason frames the issue in terms of missionary mindfulness and contextual awareness, especially in non-wealthy communities (23:46-25:46).
  • He emphasizes it’s less about policing possessions, and more about considering mission field impact and how outsiders perceive Christian leaders (27:48-29:24).
    • Quote:

      "Are you even thinking about a mission field when you [choose what to wear]?... All of us can see... Are you thinking about your witness?"
      — Dr. Eric Mason (28:26-29:24)

• Megan adds that in some “flashy” cities like Atlanta or LA, congregations may prefer fashionable leaders—but cautions against anything that distracts from the message or puts stumbling blocks in front of nonbelievers (32:09-34:23).

• Dr. Mason outlines two main types of barriers to the gospel:

  • Intellectual barriers: bad information about Christianity
  • Emotional barriers: wounds or trauma from experience with Christians/church (35:27-36:14)

5. The Prosperity Gospel and Misrepresentation

• Megan challenges the conflation of flashy appearance with a prosperity message, and Dr. Mason agrees this shapes perceptions of the gospel as self-serving rather than self-sacrificing (36:25-38:05).

  • Quote:

    "We have an environment now where people’s disposition is that the gospel exists to serve me."
    — Dr. Eric Mason (37:06)

• The need for authentic witness, where the messenger's credibility is as important as the message:

  • Quote:

    "In order to be a witness, they have to trust not what you say, but who you are."
    — Dr. Eric Mason (38:06)

6. Historical and Modern Countercultural Witness

• Megan and Dr. Mason discuss the history of the early church’s appeal: it was the daily lives and love of Christians, not just preaching, that attracted people (38:44-39:52).

• Dr. Mason contrasts today’s drive for “cultural relevance” with the need for a countercultural witness (39:33-43:00).

  • Quote:

    "We’ve mastered cultural relevance. I think we’ve lost our countercultural witness."
    — Dr. Eric Mason (39:52)

• He gives examples of countercultural responses:

  • Early Christianity’s elevation of women in marriage
  • Historical failures (e.g., slavery, racism) where the church conformed instead of confronting culture (43:27-45:32)

• He warns against Black Christians reacting to white church failures by pleasing secular Black culture rather than God (45:28-46:27).

7. Christian Liberty, Representation, and Stumbling Blocks

• Practical debate: Should Christians abstain from liberties (like drinking alcohol) to avoid being a stumbling block?
  • Megan shares that while she may drink a glass of wine privately, she avoids posting about it so as not to harm others’ conscience or witness (47:59-48:49).
  • Dr. Mason notes that while attitudes have become less legalistic, discernment and context should guide behavior (48:49-50:04).
  • He suggests asking the Holy Spirit for wisdom, and that for mature believers, restraint is often the wiser choice (50:11-50:56).

8. Rebranding the Church: Membership, Fundamentals, and Community

• Dr. Mason states that one of the church’s greatest weaknesses is biblical and theological ignorance. He ties "rebranding" not only to external perception but to an internal renewal of church fundamentals (51:21-52:02).

  • Membership is essential for discipleship, accountability, and care—not control (52:02-55:57).

  • Structured processes (like a fundamentals class upon joining) are critical for healthy church life and witness (52:07-52:18).

  • Quote:

    "When you got saved, you also need to ask: do you have a personal relationship with a local church?"
    — Dr. Eric Mason (52:18)

• Dr. Mason walks through scriptural principles and practical reasons for membership, including church discipline, stewardship, and mutual care (54:27-59:58).

• He addresses concerns about potential spiritual abuse, highlighting red flags in unhealthy churches—though this conversation is set to continue in a follow-up episode (61:06-61:49).

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote/Insight | |------------|-------------------|---------------| | 03:04 | Dr. Eric Mason | "The lost spiritual discipline is enjoyment." | | 06:48 | Dr. Eric Mason | "Satan’s trick was to make Adam and Eve think that God didn’t want them to enjoy everything when enjoyment was a command." | | 09:51 | Dr. Eric Mason | "God created us to enjoy one another. God created us to enjoy the world on his terms." | | 14:09 | Megan Ashley | "I am extremely mindful of how I present myself... being mindful of that, I’m representing Christ." | | 19:56 | Dr. Eric Mason | "I don't think your social media platform has to be a pulpit... If it’s excellent, has integrity, and doesn’t violate scripture." | | 23:46 | Dr. Eric Mason | "I don’t think it’s a biblical thing—I think it’s a sin to look like a bum... being overweight and morbidly obese... can be a distraction." | | 28:26 | Dr. Eric Mason | "Do you—even think about a mission field when you… live so no one will find fault with our ministry?" | | 32:49 | Megan Ashley | "When it comes to like Atlanta, this is a very flashy city ... they want their pastor to be fly." | | 37:06 | Dr. Eric Mason | "People’s disposition is that the gospel exists to serve me." | | 39:52 | Dr. Eric Mason | "I think we’ve lost our countercultural witness." | | 52:18 | Dr. Eric Mason | "You also need to ask: do you have a personal relationship with a local church?" | | 54:11 | Dr. Eric Mason | "That’s why I’m a big proponent of membership, because I think it’s so important." |

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 03:04 – Dr. Mason introduces enjoyment as a spiritual discipline
• 06:48 – Biblical foundations for enjoyment; boundaries from idolatry
• 14:09 – Representing Christ as content creators; discussion of public witness
• 19:56 – Social media, Christian freedom, and integrity
• 21:03 – Brand ambassador analogy and critique of pastors’ luxury branding
• 35:27 – Barriers to the gospel: intellectual and emotional
• 37:06 – The prosperity gospel and self-serving Christianity
• 39:52 – Cultural relevance vs. countercultural witness
• 43:27 – Historical examples: gender, race, and countercultural faith
• 47:59 – Practical discussion: liberty, drinking, public/private faith
• 51:21 – The case for reinvigorating church membership and fundamentals

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Conclusion

In this rich, honest discussion, Megan Ashley and Dr. Eric Mason challenge Christians to rethink how the Church is “branded” in the world—moving beyond surface realities to authentic, countercultural faithfulness. Whether discussing joy, stewardship, clothing, or content creation, the episode underscores the responsibility of all believers to reflect Christ with wisdom, integrity, and love, both inside and outside the Church. The conversation continues in next week's episode, where they’ll discuss signs of healthy versus unhealthy church membership in more detail.

Transcript

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[Megan Ashley]

What's up fam? Listen. If you've been blessed by In Totality the podcast, then I want to personally invite you to go deeper by joining our Patreon community called the Village. Every Tuesday morning, the Village members get early access to the full episode of the podcast to two days before it drops publicly on YouTube. So while everyone else is waiting, you're already soaking it in. But that's just the beginning. As a Village member, you get exclusive.

Access to the In Totality docu series.

It's a behind the scenes look at how I walk on my faith in real life. No filters, no fluff, just real moments of me trusting the Lord, processing life and growing in truth. We also do live book club club zoom calls where we read and grow together in the Word. I'm not just talking at you worth walking through it together, asking questions, wrestling through scriptures, learning to follow Christ more fully. You know, like that Romans 12. You'll also get bonus content, extra conversations with podcast guests that go even deeper, plus moments that didn't make it to the episode but were just too good. Not to share. And one more thing. When you join the village, you get first access to merch before it drops public. So if you love the message and you want to rep the movement, you'll get first dibs every time. But more than the content, the village is about community. It's a safe place for believers to connect and grow. And be reminded that you're not doing this walk alone. You're a part of something real. We're building something special, and we would.

Love for you to be a part.

So hit pause. Go to www.patreon.com SL Megan Ashley, and join today, and I'll meet you there.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

The lost spiritual discipline is enjoyment.

[Megan Ashley]

I needed to hear that.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

People's disposition is that the gospel exists to serve me.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Oh, man.

[Megan Ashley]

Be careful.

So you give your life to the.

Lord, you become a member of the church. I feel like the very next thing you need to be in is a class about the fundamentals of the faith.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

Does that make me a hypocrite? Because I had a glass of wine with my pasta.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Jesus never said, what do y' all want to get out of discipleship? He said, pick up your cross.

[Megan Ashley]

What's up, you guys?

Welcome back to another episode of In Totality.

I'm your host, Megan Ashley. I'm so excited about today's episode, and I'm so excited about my guest. Now, you guys know I just don't be having everybody on, okay? If you're like, dang, Megan, you already had that person on and did and will again, because there's not a lot of people I want to talk to. But my guest today is returning back for his second appearance. He is no stranger to the In Totality film. Everybody welcome Dr. The Dr. Eric Mason.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I am glad to be here. In Totality. Fam.

[Megan Ashley]

We are honored. I'm so happy you're here. I'm happy that you came back. And of course you came back because you have wrote yet another book. This is what, your 89th book?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Hilarious. Hilarious ninth. No, this will be number nine.

[Megan Ashley]

Number nine.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Quit it.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay, so a few things. Number one, we've been trying to start recording for the last 30 minutes, but we just got into all the things. I got so excited. But you came in here with some Crocs, and I was actually shocked because I was ready for you to flex on me with some sneakers. And you said, I got the Crocs on today, so I can't even, like, gash you with the shoe.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Thank you.

[Megan Ashley]

But those are some nice Crocs.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I love them. Slahih Bimberi Crocs. I got a lot of them. I love them.

[Megan Ashley]

You said, I'm being comfortable today.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I'm being absolutely comfortable. I got on the stretchy pants. I love little spandex. Just the difference. Yeah, but they're not too much. I like Japanese style. I. I'm in the kimono thing right now.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah, you are. I done seen a few of your kimonos on social media. I said, this man is fashionable. Dr. Mason, you are in your fashion bag.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Hey, man, that's a problem. That's one of. You know, I was just telling one of your team earlier, and I know this is about to send you. So I said, you know, one of the things the Lord has been. They asked me something for your Patreon platform. And so I ended up going into. So if this spoils it, I'm sorry, Patreon people. But I said, man, the lost spiritual discipline is enjoyment. I was spending time with the Lord, and I was dealing with some depressive stuff. And the Lord showed me, you don't use all the spiritual disciplines I've given you.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And it's one of the keys to the kingdom.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Because the gates of hell. And I'm not saying you don't need to take medicine. Don't hear me saying that. But the gates of hell are things that the devil uses to barricade you away from things that God has for you. And so one of the things that God was showing me is I was like, why am I getting depressed? And the Holy Spirit. I was just. I ended up. I don't know. I ended up reading Genesis, chapter two, and he said, freely, you may eat. And I said. He said, enjoy it. I said, one of the things that Satan's trick was to make Adam and Eve think that God didn't want them to enjoy everything when enjoyment was a command.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Wow. Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so then I went over to First Timothy six, and I'm over there. He said, those of you who are rich according to this world, learn to enjoy it. First Timothy chapter four says, all things have been created for those who believe in knowing the truth. If it's given with thanksgiving and you enjoy it. And so I'm like, enjoyment is being satisfied with what God has given you the freedom to do.

[Megan Ashley]

I needed to hear that.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I said, riding a bike is enjoyment because I love bike riding. So this is why I said that. I'm gonna just be honest. I'm not materialistic in the sense of, you know, I just have to have things. But I like. I like I like, I literally enjoy clothing and shoes and fedoras and, like, I got this. I got this in South Africa.

[Megan Ashley]

I paid that month ago. I said, is that new?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I got this for $4. You know what I'm saying? And I be on fashion over men. Y' all better give. No, turn that out. Cause they ain't getting no more. But. Nah. But I like to look nice. I just feel good, you know, when I put on a nice outfit, I'm clean nice and hygiene up.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And my wife like it too. You feel me? And so for me, and I had to remember, like, I know you're a foodie. Enjoyment.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know, walking with your kids through the neighborhood on a nice day. That's a spiritual discipline.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Can I ask you a question, since we just jumping in? How can you be mindful of what enjoyment? Like the boundary or holding the tension between enjoyment and idolizing something. Because I think it can become something can become. How can we hold tension with that? With that?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Overindulgence is always a sign of something. So I'm pretty sure my wife said, why don't you stop indulging in them fuse then?

[Megan Ashley]

For sure.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Right. But I do think that there can anything that is a preoccupation away from. Because again, this was God's boundary for them. He said freely, you can eat anything. Just don't eat from that one. Now, the tree of the knowledge of good and evil was not evil. Cause she added to God's word by saying, you can't look at it or touch it. God never said that.

[Megan Ashley]

Never said that she could touch it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

She could look at it and enjoy it, but she should not have eaten from it. The command was not to eat. And so what was evil was their propensity to think that God was holding back from them something. And when God said, not only do you enjoy the Garden of Eden, you can enjoy the planet, you can plant more trees, you know, and so the enemy. That's why enjoyment is so important, to see what God has given you. Like the short of the Westminster Confession of Faith says the chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy him forever. That's such a beautiful statement. God created us to enjoy him.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

God created us to. To enjoy one another. God created us to enjoy the world on his terms. And so I think that's why Jesus died on the cross. One of the reasons is to bring back redemptive enjoyment. Like, if we think about. And I hate to just bring up sex, because that's always like the.

[Megan Ashley]

The Go to.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, yeah. But it's like, it's like wishable to have a right relationship with sexuality. Like when we talk about how do you know you're doing something wrong is when you're indulging it in ways that are unauthorized.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know what I'm saying?

[Megan Ashley]

Got it. And so I think doing it in independent of him, like independent of him. I enjoy thing. Like I was telling Jordan this the other day, I was like, cuz I'm really big right now, I'm really big on. And we're going to get into this a little bit, but I'm really big on James. What is it? James 3 where it talks about self selfish ambition and where James talks about selfish ambition. And I was like, there are things that I do because yesterday we went and got pedicures and got our nails done. I was like, now this technically has nothing to do with the Lord, right? This is about me getting my nails done and getting my feet. This is on the surface it's all about me. But I was like having a Christ centered mind frame is me going to get my pedicure and manicure, but not doing it independently of the Lord. And what I mean by that is like, Lauren, I'm gonna go get my nail, my nails done and I'm gonna go get a pedicure. If you happen to open an opportunity for me to share the gospel or Lord or like even in the way that I show up and treat people with respect and dignity as a witness. So it's like is doing it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's a really good question.

[Megan Ashley]

With him. Enjoyment.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's a really good question. I think that it's enjoyment if it's not vanity.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

It's like we gotta always remember, that's why, you know, just growing in our biblical filter, like say, I mean y' all going shopping, you know, and you know, whether man or woman, you know, a man like yeah, man, and he kind of muscular or whatever and he's gonna, he's free to go enjoy buying any clothes he wants, but just as long as it doesn't violate scripture. So if you're out there and you got the Jamaican kind of netty thing where you showing your abs, you know, and this is not the beach atmosphere and you just walking down the street, you know, or ladies likewise in modesty. So I think that the issue is, the issue is how do I bring. That's why the Bible says that everybody that's doing evangelism apologetics always read the latter part of 1 Peter 3, 15 but the first part says, set Christ aside as Lord in your heart. So our goal as believers is to constantly ask ourselves the question, in what I'm doing, is Christ enthroned in how I'm doing this?

[Megan Ashley]

Yes.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Cause sometimes I traded for this shoe, and I was like, should I preach in these? It's not wrong. But I like. You know, one of the verses that stays with me is Second Corinthians, chapter 6, verse 3. Paul says, and I like the way the new. I'm gonna read it from the new living translation. I like the new living translation for certain things. Right. And so this verse. Right. I like it because it's. It literally is. And this is like, something even for content creators and people in ministry and just believers in any respect. So in 2 Corinthians, I'm reading the New Lemon, and I'm going to chapter six, verse three. It says, we live in such a way that no one will stumble because of us and no one will find fault with our ministry.

[Megan Ashley]

Yep.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I mean, that verse hits in a way that says, yes, you're free to.

[Megan Ashley]

Do some things are permissible.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9, Am I not free? Can I take a wife? Can I? He says, I'm free. But he says, but there are ways as a. Not just an apostle, but a believer where. Where I'm willing to put certain restrictions in place because I know that also my freedom should not violate my mission.

[Megan Ashley]

Correct. Can I ask you a question? Because this is a big. With me. This is a big, like. Because I am extremely mindful of how I present myself. Not because I want to look away. And I've had to kill even some pride in me because at points it has been I want to look away. But being mindful of that. I'm representing Christ, and we're kind of jumping in. But your book that. This new book that you have, rebranding the church, you talk about being a brand ambassador, right? So you have a chapter about being a brand ambassador.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Look at the leeway. Look at you with the leeway. Look at you. She's a professional, y'. All. You feel me.

[Megan Ashley]

Working on my journalistic skills, but you talk about being a brand ambassador. And I. And I always. I don't know if I talked to you about this, but I always use the example of when I worked for JP Morgan Chase, and we had uniforms, and all of our uniforms had the brand logo on it. And one of the rules was, is that you could not wear your uniform. So, like, say I went to, you know, a person goes to work and then they went to like a bar after. So you could not wear.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

To make me throw something.

[Megan Ashley]

You could not wear your, your Chase uniform at the bar because if you were caught doing anything that looked weird, you're not representing just you, but now you're representing the brand because you have this Chase logo on you. Right? And so I feel. And my question for you is, before we get into. Because there is some really dope stuff in this chapter, and now I haven't read every single chapter. There was only two chapters that I was able to really dive into, but those are the ones that I kind of wanted to talk to you about. But before we dive into this one, I want to ask you that, is it the responsibility of a content creator? Now say you're a content creator and you're just a Christian. Yeah, but. But you publicly confess that you're a Christian. Do you now have to make all of your content about Christ or is there a mindfulness that you have to have because you've already publicly said that you're a Christian? Does that make sense what I'm saying? So it's like, because I. Cause I, I was on TikTok, I think, the other day, and I. And someone was talking about, just because you're a Christian doesn't mean your content has to be Christ centered or Christ related. So I just kind of want to get. When it comes to brand ambassadors, is there a difference between being a Christian who creates content and being a Christian content creator?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, I think that's a very, very good question. I mean, this was like the argument with Christian hip hop like 25 years ago, you know, you know, can you be a rapper? And you know, the whole. All of the things. So I mean, I see content creation as, it's different levels of content creation. As you know, there's leisure content creation where you're just a person with a page and you're just doing stuff. Right? But then you have professional content creation where, you know, there are people who is different, but there's different types of content creation because you're not on here. Like, I just got this from minimal and on minimal brand, you know, that's a certain type of content creation. And so I think that if we're talking about just someone that's doing, let's say someone that's doing, they're doing. Like I have a lot of content creators at my church. I'm just finding out. And a lot of them do brand sponsorships. And so one of the Things that I can tell as I watch them and that I appreciate is they do, it's their job. And so they do it Christianly with modesty, you know, with. So they're not going out saying, I'm a Christian. I don't even think one of them in particular is a couple there. I don't think, I don't know if people know they're Christians, but if somebody found out that they were a Christian, they wouldn't be like, you know, got it. You know what I'm saying? So I think that that's, it's nothing wrong with that. I don't think your social media platform has to be a pulpit.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I do think that if, however, if you, when you're, but when you're dealing with certain types of content, there are certain worldviews and ethics that come correct, that come into play with it. So if you have a political, you know, content creation platform or a social science content creation platform or a relationship based content creation platform. So I'm not gonna name the platform, but it's a platform that I, it's their reels come up and I don't follow them. It seemed like everybody from Atlanta, but it just seemed like all the relationship podcasts are here, but, and it's this one where it's just worldviews are all over the place, you know, but then there's this one young lady, she always is doing like content creation around relationships and talking to women about men and really, really talking a lot to women and bringing some stuff from scripture. And so I think for her and which I've seen so far from her, has been dope that she views herself as, I think she's a relationship coach or something like that, but she does it Christianly.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

So you can't be like, you can't do something that overlaps with scripture and just use the ethics of your education as a way to answer that question. If it conflicts with scripture.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Does that make sense? So if it conflicts with scripture, you can't just give the rope answer because you're going to have to give an answer to the King about that. And so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's when I say so. So, so to answer your question, I don't think all Christian Christians have to do content creation. It's Christ centered. If it's excellent.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Integrity, it has integrity. And it doesn't violate scripture.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Because, and, and, and so I, I, and I think that's up to a person. Cause I don't I don't view content creation as that person's only evangelism outlet.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

So, yeah, I'm just not judging like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

So I love that. I love that you talked about. I love that you name this chapter Brand Ambassadors, because I think it's going to speak so much to the current culture because we know, especially content creators, we know all about Brand Ambassador. And of course, that name Ambassador speaks to me because Jay has given me a kingdom Advocate Brand Ambassador, Christ Amass. That's my, like, tag name. But when you talk about this, in this chapter, one part of the chapter, you talk about pastors and their expensive brands, and you talk about that page, Preachers Institute, Preachers. And so it sparked my interest because it gives me a take on modesty. And I think sometimes when we hear about modesty, we automatically go to women dressing as well.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

We go to women, absolutely.

[Megan Ashley]

But we never think about men and we never broaden what modesty means. Why do you think, number one, where do you think the obsession is? Why do we care that pastors wear whatever they wear? Right. And. But also, how can that. The lack of modesty, even in brands that you wear. Right. Because you got preachers. That's Louis down to the socks.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Gucci down to the socks. Van Cleef up the sleeve.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I don't even know what that is. Okay.

[Megan Ashley]

An expensive bracelet up the sleeves. Right. They got. They just every week on the pulpit, week after week after week. How can we. Like, where is the. I guess the maturity and knowing what is. Like, how is that helpful and how is that harmful?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Oh, man. Good Lord. This is a big. This is a big. It's very complex in a lot of ways.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Dr. Eric Mason]

This is how I answer it. I want to answer it first, not from the perspective of scripture first.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I want to answer it from the perspective of not the non Christian. Okay, what do they like? Like, I, for me, I try and I don't know if I always do it rightly because I like things. I'm not one of them. I just think for me, this is a personal thing. I don't think it's a biblical thing. I think it's a sin to look like a bum. I just do. Unless we're under persecution and we're in house churches hiding from government officials, I don't think you should not be sloppy looking in the pulpit. Okay, you know, let me just say that I do think, because that can be a distraction, being overweight and morbidly obese is. It can be a distraction. Right? So it's a complex question. So I think that I just asked myself the question. This is what I asked myself. And I'm going to get back to unbelievers. How do I process that, wearing that through scripture as a leader? But I said I'm gonna start with non believers. If I, if I think about a non Christian saying, if I had on a Gucci jacket with the G's all in it and the pants, for me, I just don't know where I am located in North Philly, that then that's not. They not gonna, they're not gonna rock with that. They don't mind me wearing nice sneakers, a nice outfit. I get compliments from non believers, Muslims, everything, right? So they don't mind nice stuff, nice outfit. But when they feel like you're trying to design her out, that's just where I am. It just.

[Megan Ashley]

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[Dr. Eric Mason]

And I'm not judging anybody for having a Gucci purse. I. I don't think it's anything wrong with a Christian having a Gucci purse. Louis Vuitton purse.

[Megan Ashley]

Thank God.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Burking whatever you do. I just think that we just need to be mindful missionaries. That's really for me, it's really not about. For me it's not about judging or micromanaging what someone has on. It's just like do you. Because all of us can see. Are you even thinking about a mission field when you. Yeah, when you're doing like that verse we just read, we Live in such a way that no one will find fault with our ministry.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so, but. And this is the issue. I watch non Christian content creators commentary on Christian leaders and Christians on purpose. And it doesn't take you but five minutes to recognize that they see. It doesn't take you but five minutes to recognize that they are like, I was listening to. And I don't want to dig into it. I was listening to Corey Holcomb, which Corey Holcomb be just talking crazy, but I listened to him and I was kind of like, I was.

[Megan Ashley]

I know what you're talking about.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. Yeah. And I was just like, you know, I was kind of like, it's kind of like caiaphas prophesying without knowing it, you know, And I'm not. I don't know who he was talking about, but I don't remember. And I don't want to judge that person either. But I'm just saying non Christians are literally watching us. And so I think that. Let me ask you a question. I know you're interviewing me.

[Megan Ashley]

No.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Like, does that, like, what in your mind, what for you, in your mind, you're not a pastor, but you have a leadership role, but you're still technically a layperson. What in your mind, what's your view on Christian liberties around representing God as it pertains to modesty? And we're not just talking about girls wearing tight stuff. I'm talking about all the things.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

So for me, I think I've had to look at modesty on both spectrums because if you look at like my past life.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

I didn't care about. I was going to show everything.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Yeah. I could care less. Modesty for what? Like, I was out here. I didn't care. But I think, I think for. And this. I don't know if this is answering your question or not, but I think having a heart that is postured to please the Lord, I have a. A consistent practice of does this honor him? Does this please him?

Or at least considering.

Lord, are you okay with this? There are certain things that I have that, like, I like, I don't know, even like this shirt for an example. I feel comfortable wearing this here, but I probably would not wear this if I was going to speak somewhere.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Gotcha. Gotcha.

[Megan Ashley]

You know what I'm saying? Because I just don't want to distract at all in any way from the, like, my purpose in being here. So I don't think anything's wrong with having it. I don't think anything wrong with. With Wearing it. But I do think there's a time and a place for everything when it comes to brands. I'm not talking about. Yeah, modesty, you know what I mean? I'm still always going to be covered no matter where I go. But do you know what I'm saying? Or like.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I know exactly what you're saying.

[Megan Ashley]

If I'm on vacation, I'm going to wear a swimsuit.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you know what I'm saying?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Am I going to wear just a random top with. Or a random outfit with most of my body out walking down the streets of Atlanta?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

No.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Do you see what I'm saying?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Now let me ask you this, because this is something that I do believe plays a role in perception. Right. So you. I've looked at some of your. I've stalked some of your following. Meaning I'm like. Because some people started following me. Like, if you post something, I get these followers and I'll be like, why is this person following me? And I said, who did they follow? Oh, they follow her. Then I'll say, who follows her? Then I'll go down. I'll be like, oh, she got a celebrity following. Like, let me ask you this. In a. You know what? I'm kind of. So in a middle, upper class world, how do they view pastors or leaders having extravagant appearances? Because I want to know if it's different. I don't know.

[Megan Ashley]

I feel like it depends. Because when you're thinking about like a region like Atlanta.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, that's why I'm asking. Because this is a different place.

[Megan Ashley]

This is different in la, in LA and Miami, me. So when you, when you have more of these, like, entertainment, fashion, forward cities. Okay, well, I'll give you an example. I feel like for Atlanta. Oh, man, be careful. I feel like, I feel like when it comes to like Atlanta, this is a very flashy city.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

It is.

[Megan Ashley]

Right. And so I think that it fits their aesthetic to have a pastor that's flashy. Do you know what I'm saying? Like, that's, it's like, yeah, I want my pastor to be fly. I want to.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

But that's a certain arena of Christianity too.

[Megan Ashley]

That's a absolutely. So I don't even know if it's. I think it's a personality type. Like, I think it's like, you know how Timothy talks about they'll, they'll acquire teachers to suit their own passions. I think it fall like the fashion falls in that line too. Because there are gonna be some people that are in the same region who don't have it like that or and be completely offended that a pastor would stand in a pulpit and wear designer stuff from head to toe. Do you know what I mean? Like my father for example, he's an old school man and he would be, I don't wanna, I don't like that. Why he got like, he's, you know, he's a heathen so he's, he's going to look at it like, be offended by it. But then you might have somebody who, who's like into that and wants that, that thinks that that is okay. To me, to me personally, just my personal view on it. I think that everything has to be taken into, into consideration with the Lord. Like you need to ask the Lord, is he pleased with that? Because I do believe that it can be a distraction. Like you said, I don't want to give the enemy is already after the believer. I don't want to give the enemy any room to put doubt in a non believer's mind to trust something that I'm saying because of what I'm wearing.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And see that's so important.

[Megan Ashley]

You see what I'm saying?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, that's so important because the question is, and this is a good, and this is for any brand ambassador, right? Like what's the, what's the, what's the first thing you think about when representing Jesus? Yeah, what's like what's the first thing? Is it what you're going to wear or is it what kind of character you have? Yeah, or is it what Like Paul says in 1st 2 Corinthians 4, he says we don't preach ourselves, but we preach Christ to him crucified. The question is how do we minimize distractions? And so distractions may not always be gear some places. But I'm saying I want to make sure in my life that there's nothing that effectively puts anything in the way of barricading people away from the gospel. So there are three types of barriers, but two main ones that we see in effect when it comes to the gospel there are two types of barriers. There's intellectual barriers and there are emotional barriers. So the intellectual barrier is bad information.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

So that means if I'm sharing the gospel with somebody, they got an intellectual barrier. Christianity is the white man's religion. That's an intellectual barrier. So we can, we can, we, we, we can't. We can't. That's when you don't, you can't answer faith. You can't ask a fact based questions with Faith based answers.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

So you have to deal with, to all of, all of the African church when I was in Africa before. But then the second one, which is an emotional barrier is based on experiences and traumas and different things. And so you're not going to use informational apologetics on an emotional issue.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so you have to. And so I think that a lot of times we have to understand that our witness can injure people.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yes.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so how do I minimize injury so that I don't help the devil cover their eyes more to the gospel? That's really what we got to think about.

[Megan Ashley]

And you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I also feel like that some of this super flashiness is to, is to like sneak in this prosperity message. Do you see what I'm saying? So it's like if I'm, if I'm a pastor and I am talking about your best life and like how God is going to work for you and how God is going to bless you and I'm Gucci down to the socks, I think. Do you know what I'm saying? I think it's like this, this, this hand holding to a prosperity message. And I think that that can be.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Harmful because, because we, we have to, we, we, I mean we have an environment now where people's disposition is that the gospel exists to serve me.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And I feel like I'm preaching to dry bones sometimes with no resurrection when I'm talking to people about who really cares about doing things God's way, like without any reservation of saying how they feel and that kind of thing. And so I do think that this whole idea of brand ambassadors, one of the things that I really wanted to help people do is just to begin to as a, not just individually but as a whole, how are we doing with how we're perceived as viable witnesses to be able to share Jesus? Because one of the things that's important is in order to be a witness, they have to trust not what you say, but who you are, who are.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Because I can't trust what you say. If, if, if you're a liar, if you're a deceiver, if you're money hungry. So what, what is our brand in order to be able to communicate.

[Megan Ashley]

So yeah, so when I was doing a lot of studying on one Acts because before we did the Acts 2:42 conference, I was taking my Patreon community through the first couple books of acts up until I think chapter nine of, of Acts, but as I was doing a lot of research and studying. I read a lot of commentary that talked about the church growing not just because of the preaching, but because of the living of the people.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Absolutely.

[Megan Ashley]

And the church gained so many followers not because of what the apostle, not just because of what the apostles were preaching, but it was the way that the church lived.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's the key.

[Megan Ashley]

That was the key. Like, and that was the thing that drew people into the faith of Christianity. And so in this chapter where you're talking about brand ambassadors, you talk about how the church needs a revival, like, needs to be represented. What. What are the ways? I'm curious because you've been in ministry for how long? 30, 31, 31 years, doing ministry. In what ways? Two questions I'll ask the first one, what ways are we. Are we representing the church correctly? And what ways are we where we need to be represented to the world?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know, one of the things that's a. That's a amazing question. I think we have. I think we're in the era where we've mastered being culturally relevant. I think there's a mastery of that. I think we've lost our countercultural witness.

[Megan Ashley]

Though, that we're trying to be too relevant, that we're not.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, because there's a part of, like, for women, for instance, when a woman becoming a Christian was like, there was coming a Christian. Like when women in the New Testament. Right. You gotta understand, there was so many restrictions on women. Men only had women, like in Corinth. Men in the background of Corinth, a woman, a wife, was only for a legitimate seed. Like, they didn't date their wife, they didn't love their wife. Their wife was just a means for me to say, oh, I'm have a son, so that the estate is in place. But then they dated and poured their lives into prostitutes. So when Paul comes on the scene and he's writing 1 Corinthians 6, he who joins himself to a harlot is one with her and not his wife. And then he says, husband, do you know how radical it was and how liberating for women when it said, Ephesians 5 is one of the most feminine liberating chapters for the context that it was written in. Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself. The wife was supposed to die for the husband. The wife was supposed to sacrifice her life for the husband. The wife was supposed to put her life on the side for the husband. Some of the red pill, blue pill community are called Ephesians 5. You know, the simping chapter you know, that's a simp chapter. But what's funny is what wasn't radical is for a woman to be called to respect her husband. That was normal.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

It wasn't. Nothing radical about that.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so that's why in 1 Corinthians 11, he had to tell women not to take their head coverings off. It's cultural, because in that culture, if you didn't have a head covering on, you were considered a prostitute. A woman who had her hair laid out was a prostitute in Greco Roman culture. So she covered her hair. Right. In that particular deal in the gathering. And so they said, cover your head as a sign of your submission to the authority over, you know, in the context of the local church. And so one of the things that's so important for us to understand is. And so as that happened, and they were like, her husband's different. He's not like all the other husbands who treat. He doesn't go to see prostitutes. He loves her and cherishes her. And so for a woman, I want that.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I want that. Christ.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That changes a man into being willing to give his life for his wife.

[Megan Ashley]

Yes.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And I would gladly respect a man and submit to a man very easily.

[Megan Ashley]

Hello.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

My submission. My submission. See, most women, their submission before Jesus was traumatic. It was trauma. But now, under Christ is triumphal.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Because now she feels like her household has been properly conquered and put back in order. That's the beauty of the gospel.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's the beauty of the gospel. It's not just cultural, it's countercultural.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

So give me. Okay, Give me. Because this is so good to me. Give me another example of something that is that we, as the church, that would be part of representing ourselves correctly to the world that we need to speak to. Like, what do we need to be countercultural to? What's something that we're. We're getting to?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

It's a bunch.

[Megan Ashley]

You said. Name it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

White evangelical Christianity should have been countercultural by fighting against slavery. You say you love Spurgeon. You'd say you love Spurgeon.

[Megan Ashley]

Spurgeon was not about that life.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Spurgeon was not about that life.

[Megan Ashley]

No, he wasn't.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

He was countercultural.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yep.

[Megan Ashley]

He wouldn't even come over here to preach.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah. And they said if he came over here, they wrote letters that said they're going to kill him.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Wow.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's countercultural.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Countercultural. Jonathan Edwards is called the most brilliant intellectual in the last 300 years. And he owned slaves, so he was not countercultural. When black codes came, the white church was not countercultural. They were lynching. Listen, in Missouri, they lynched a guy on the Saturday before Easter Sunday and then went back after Easter service and went and took pictures with him. You can go online, Springfield, Missouri. And took parts of what he had on as souvenirs for them after Sunday, after the resurrection Sunday. That's not countercultural. Like. And so what I would talk to some of my white siblings about is I would say, so why didn't y' all fight against racial injustice, slavery and all the things. They were just men of their times. So you mean conform to this world? You mean like a simple verse in Romans chapter two? I mean, Romans chapter 12, you know, so when we talk about that in Jim Crow and systemic racism, all the things like those are ways. So I think that there's a way to be counter cultural. There's another side, even for blacks. Now, how can we be countercultural? We have to be careful as black people in America of responding to the trauma of racism by acting like white Christians who aren't our siblings.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

To please blacks who aren't Christian.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

So it's so many layers to. It's just so many layers to being countercultural. You know what I'm saying? And so I think that, like, the other ways of being countercultural, you know, I did it for a while instead of moving to a certain location, we incarnated in a particular community for a while to live there, even though we didn't have to in order to understand, know, and empathize with the issues of that community. So there's so many ways to be countercultural. But I think that the. That's what made like, they were giving away their stuff. In Acts, chapter 2, verse 42 through 47, where they were business owners were selling portions of their property to make sure that was countercultural. And so I. I just see that we. We haven't struck the nerve of, like, people expect of us innately, things they don't expect from other faiths.

[Megan Ashley]

Correct.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I never heard somebody say, you're supposed to be a Muslim. I never heard that.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know, unless you eat some pork. But, you know, but they don't care about that. I always say, you're supposed to be a Christian.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yep.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You're supposed to be a woman of God. You're supposed to be a man of. You're supposed to be a preacher. Right. Nobody say, you're supposed to be an imam. You know, you're supposed to be a dawah. Right. They don't say that. And so I think that there is a general revelation expectation innately wired into all human beings to expect those connected to the true and only wise God to expect better of them. They expect counterculture. They want countercultural. And so what is countercultural? Fundamentally, the question is, now we talked about enjoyment earlier. Now another part of that spiritual discipline of enjoyment is laying down your rights. See, Brand Ambassador is saying, you know, we know we're in an era where now it's finally okay for Christians to, you know, smoke a hookah, you know, smoke cigars, drink all the things. And I'm not dogging any of that. Is there a moment where you lay down your rights in relation to any of that? We're saying, I don't know. I know this is a liberty, but I don't know where that person is. And I want common ground with them. So I'm gonna fall back so that this won't put an obstacle. I'm free to do this. I'm not wrong. But for the sake of the gospel, I can lay down this right for this moment.

[Megan Ashley]

So that is my thing. We was just, literally, we were just talking about this yesterday because does it make you a hypocrite to be mindful? Like, for me, social media, I believe that there are certain liberties that we have as Christians. However, you not gonna see me do anything on social media. Like, you just ain't gonna see me post st. And but if you were to see me at a restaurant, you might see a glass of wine with my steak or whatever with my pasta, minding my business, does that make me a hypocrite? Because I had a glass of wine with my pasta, Vodka pasta. I like vodka pasta and I like it with a nice wine sometimes. Does that make me a hypocrite? Because you see me drink that there, but you would never see that on my social media. And the reason being is because I don't want to be a stumbling. Like, I don't know where everybody. I got a lot of followers. I don't want to. I don't know where all these people are.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I don't think it's as much of a big deal now as it would have been us in the 90s. I don't think it's so much a big deal because in the 90s we were very legalistic when we first came to school. Like when you became a Christian in the 90s you was mad legalistic for sure. But the 90s and back, I think now is different. Like when I was in South Africa, and particularly in London. Everybody drink. So it's Christians, you know, I mean, this beer culture, all the things. Whiskeys and So I don't know, I just would say, let the Holy Spirit and conscience guide you.

[Megan Ashley]

Got it.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

You know, I'm not really big, but. Because I think the tide has changed. But I do think that there are certain situations you need to ask yourself, man, Holy Spirit, you know, because I don't think it's black or white. I think sometimes it's like, holy Spirit is. Should I fall back and use. If you're asking yourself that question, you probably should.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

But for sure. But for the most part, you know.

[Megan Ashley]

You have those Christians that are like, I can't believe you would, you know, and they like. It will completely shatter your. I don't know, legitimacy to them if they were to see you smoke a hookah or drink or whatever.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

It would completely shatter your legitimacy with them. But. So I'm trying to, like, where is the maturity?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

My thing is just be mindful.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

I'm just being mindful. You know, for me, with indulging in a liberty, I mean, I would, you know, I would. I would just be careful.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Just where I. Where I do it. And it's more in a setting where everybody's good. You know what I'm saying? If I'm in a setting where everybody's good, I'm good.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

If I'm in a setting where people aren't good and I don't know where they are spiritually. Where they are spiritually, you know, or ask. I've had people say, hey, would it bother you if I. I've had people with me, like, they say, hey, Pastor, does it bother you if I get a, you know, a whiskey sour or, you know, and I say, nah, don't bother me one bit. It ain't gonna make me stumble.

[Megan Ashley]

Cause it's not gonna make you stumble. Correct.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

It sure enough. Ain't gonna make me stumble. That's all I'll say. It will not in any way make me stumble.

[Megan Ashley]

Okay. So when you. When you talk, I just want to kind of get your gauge on. When it. When you say represent the church. We need to represent the church.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yes.

[Megan Ashley]

What are some major ways, if you can think of maybe like the top three major ways right now that you feel like we. The world is seeing us in a way that we need to be represented?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah, I think one is so many ways. So one of the. One of the things that I just think that is a big Issue, and you're just gonna hear me say this probably for years, is the church needs to be less ignorant in the fundamentals. I hate that cult see us as a mission field. They see us as so weak. We could just go into church and do what we wanna do. And so I think that we need to work on rebranding that. I think that's a very, very, very important thing. And the rebrand and thing about the book is the rebranding is not just for the world, is also for us. To us.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so one of the things that I just think that needs to be rebrand is membership.

[Megan Ashley]

Because don't you think that member. Like when you become a member. Right. So you give your life to the Lord, you become a member of the church. I feel like the very next thing you need to be in is a class about the fundamentals of the faith.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yes, yes. I think that membership is like people have to recognize that when you got saved, we always think we always we. I understand what people say, do you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? You also need to ask, do you have a personal relationship with a local church? Because when Christ died, the cross is this way and this way. So he died to bring us back to God. You know, John 17, 3, this is eternal life that you know, God and his only son who he sent. But it all not. But. And it also said, you have been baptized into the body of Christ. So in light of being baptized into the body of Christ that he's now restored your relationship with one another as being the people of God again. And so in light of that, being in a local church is so important. People say local church ain't, but I talk. I don't want to give too much of the book away, but. But God always kept count of his people number. God did. Sensei. I know census is not a word, but sensei is the proper way of saying it. But he always kept count. Even in acts, you see them keeping count of people. They knew who was a part of the body. So I think we have to create structured ways to know who's under our charge. Who are we giving account for? Who can we put under church discipline? Who do we need to restore? How can you say that if you don't have a way of. I think it's bad stewardship not to have a membership process. I do. Because I think that if you. Because you gotta tell people what's required of them. You know what I'm saying? You gotta tell people what's required of them. But then you also gotta let people know what's available for them, what's available to them, and what's the mission of the ministry. And you can't hold nobody accountable that doesn't see themselves as a committed part of that whole.

[Podcast Co-host or Guest]

Yeah, you can't.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

And so that's why I'm a big proponent of membership, because I think it's so important.

[Megan Ashley]

What are some scriptures that you can give our audience to study to kind of. That. That goes to your point about church membership and about being a part of a local church.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Well, I think we have the. This is what you have to do, right? You have to do what's called biblical theology. Okay, so biblical theology is. How does the Bible talk about this? That's basically what it is. How does the Bible talk about the subject matter of knowing who the people of God is? And one of the things that you see is God is always. They're doing, like, all the way from the Old Testament to the New Testament. God did synthesis to number the people. What tribe are they in? Where did they come from? Who are they connected to? Right? When you get to the New Testament, you see, that's one of the first things that happens because they had to go to the census, right? They had to go to Bethlehem. But when you get to Acts, you see them keeping numbers. One of the things you see that they had lists in 1 Corinthians, I mean, 1st Timothy 5, they had a widow's list. You see in Romans, chapter 16, that he knew all of these people that were locally committed to that particular church. And so you see in one Second Third John, particularly Second and Third John, you see that there were specific people that were connected to that local church. You weren't going to just. You're not going to have a pastor from Corinth talking to members in Ephesus about being under their spiritual authority. You know, when you look at First Corinthians 11, when you all come together, you. The church at Corinth, the church at Ephesus. And so for them, they knew that you were a believer because you went through persecution and you stayed around, you know, and so that was their membership process, you know what I'm saying? But now we have to. I mean, the church has. I mean, that was. The church was technically small back then. It was a remnant of Israel and the Gentile population. So now the church has gone global. I just think I. I think we have to take a consensus and census of who's God's people and who's not God's people. Like, for instance. And I say that for practical reasons, right? Because when the pandemic happened and we. And we weren't coming to church, we. We had to call everybody in our church to see how they were doing, did they need anything. And if you're not connected to a membership process, you know, because we have some people. I'll give you an example, and this is no knock on Calvary Chapel. Calvary Chapel doesn't, for the most part, from what I know of, doesn't do membership process. So we had some people that were in the Calvary Chapel culture. They would come in and out of our church and they would. They would barely serve. And I'm not saying this about Calvary Chapel. Please hear me saying this. But that's the philosophy of Calvary Chapel. All right? And the philosophy of Calvary Chapel of they don't necessarily have a membership, but they may have changed that, but historically hasn't been. That hasn't been their conviction because they'll say membership is not in the Bible. And so. So. So they would come into church. And so one of them wanted something. Us to do something for a family member. And we're like. Like, we have. We have certain things in place because we're not a megachurch. And so we got a nice size because of where we are, but we're not a megachurch. And so we have to have resources that are budgeted and dedicated for specific things, particularly for members and people in our community that are in need. But these people just kept coming in and they were asking us. We said, we're just not able to do that. We're not able to help with that particular thing. And it was something that we don't even help with anyway. And they got mad left, you know, and then it was just like. But I couldn't hold them accountable because they weren't members. You know what I'm saying? So one of the things that is just a practical reality is about accountability. How can I give an account, Hebrews 13, of a person that never put themselves under my spiritual authority? You can't. Because I have to have a process that I know and my elders know that you are under the spiritual authority of this local church in both life and lips, if not if you're not a member? Because one of the things that'll happen with people is people will be like, can y' all disciple me? And I'll be like, okay, are you a Christian? Take them to the Gospel. Yes, I'm a believer. Okay, you need to join the church. Why? I need to join the church to get discipleship. Because we have mechanisms in the philosophy of discipleship here. And so our philosophy of discipleship is these entry points are organized. A mechanism of discipleship and organic means discipleship. Well, I want somebody to pour into me. Well, I said, you don't get to give me a syllabus. Jesus never said, what do y' all want to get out of discipleship? He said, pick up your cross. So if you can't, you're not even eligible for membership because you can't even. You can't even. You can't even follow a command. And so you want to write your own ticket. The other thing is, it's not just about accountability. It's about care. I want to be able to know that you're locked in here so that we can care for you. I don't want to be. I'm just a member of the body of Christ. But you come once a quarter. We don't know you. You have to lock into community because people want to have a place of belonging, want to have a place of relationship. And so I think that we really need to rebrand. It's not about control. It's not about being a cult. That's not what this is about for some people. I can hear the. I already hear the naysayers now. That's like a cult to me. That's control. The Bible says that we have body Christ, one body. You can't just. You can't just go about as a renegade wanderer in the kingdom. There has to be some structure. I mean, if you're. If you're getting with people and you're in a small group, you're coming to Sunday morning service, you're serving, you're developing relationships. And in that. And in that small group community, someone falls ill and they're single and they're from another state and they don't have any family there. You're their only family. They got Covid. So now you got the small group saying, oh, we locked and loaded together. Let's make sure they have soup. Hold on. Make sure it's Covid. Go get your COVID test. You stay in the house. We're going to do that. We're going to spray, you know, all the things. Let's help with this. That, like, who's going to take them to the appointment? Let's mask up and make sure they're good. Like, that type of stuff is what the body does. And it's a. Membership is not about locking someone into a contract to beat them up. It's about knowing who you are and you being proud of who you are as a part of this local community, and not just where we're responsible for you, but where you are responsible. Right. And so that's a very important thing that I think we need to reinvigorate is a theology and understanding of membership.

[Megan Ashley]

So you have people. Cause. Because you said you can hear the naysayers now. And there are people who have been in spiritually abusive churches, abusive gatherings and all the things. And so how can. How can they move towards a church and know the difference between what is spiritual abuse and control and what is just healthy membership? Discipleship? Like, what is. Like how can a person be able to. What are the red flags? I would say.

[Dr. Eric Mason]

Yeah.

[Megan Ashley]

Of a bad. Of a bad church or unhealthy church and the green flags of a healthy church?

[Dr. Eric Mason]

That's a real good question.

[Megan Ashley]

What's up, you guys?

Listen, I hope you enjoyed part one of my conversation with Dr. Eric Mason. Join us back next week as we conclude our conversation about his book rebranding the church.

See you guys next week.

What's up, you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow in Totality podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow into Tality on Apple podcasts or Spotify and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.