EP 94: Faith in the Waiting: When God Feels Silent

Summary

In Totality with Megan Ashley

Episode 94: Faith in the Waiting – When God Feels Silent
Date: October 28, 2025
Host: Megan Ashley
Guests: Dallas and Amanda Jenkins (The Chosen)

---

Episode Overview

In this heartfelt and honest conversation, Megan Ashley welcomes Dallas Jenkins (creator, director, and writer of The Chosen) and his wife, Amanda Jenkins (writer, Bible study developer, and “extra content” director for the show). Together, they explore the tension, vulnerability, and deep faith required when God feels silent, especially during seasons of waiting and suffering. Through personal stories, behind-the-scenes insights from The Chosen, and reflections on suffering, healing, and devotional practice, the discussion offers practical encouragement for anyone wrestling with faith in the waiting.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

The Origin and Purpose of The Chosen

[04:23-10:15]

• Dallas and Amanda describe the genesis of The Chosen and their unexpected journey from a failed film project to spearheading a global phenomenon.
• Their initial intent was simply to make a biblically inspired TV series, not a movement.
• A major theme: The Chosen is meant to lead audiences back to Scripture, not replace it.
  • “The show isn’t going to last forever and we want that (turning to the Bible) to go on long after the show.” – Amanda [09:27]
  • Dallas emphasizes, “We say up front, before you even watch frame one of the show, ‘Viewers are encouraged to read the Gospels. This is based in the Bible. I’ve always said, I’m not God. Jonathan isn’t Jesus. The show isn’t the Bible.’” [07:36]
• They discuss how Bible studies/devotionals and supporting content bridge gaps and help viewers of all backgrounds access deeper biblical truths.

---

Transformation Stories & Miracles

[10:35-20:23]

• Megan asks about non-traditional believers being drawn to the show and experiencing heart change.
• Dallas shares that over half the cast and crew were not believers—some have come to faith by portraying and witnessing the narrative.
  • “Almost every time a cast member is in a scene where they are actually quoting Scripture… the actor has an overwhelming and unexpected emotional reaction.” – Dallas [12:51]
  • Dallas recounts receiving a message from an actor: “For the first time in my life I can say I’m a believer, and I have you to thank for making the introduction.” [13:50]
• The global impact: stories of young children in China who loved the show even before translation—proving God’s transcending power beyond language, age, or culture.
• Amanda and Dallas share their humility at seeing God use the show in ways they could never orchestrate.
  • “When God breathes on something, it hopefully should make it very easy for you to see that and recognize, ‘Okay, I’m just making a pretty good show… but I’m not this good.’” – Dallas [17:28]
• The “download” moments: the scenes most impactful are those that Dallas felt “downloaded” from God during writing. [20:32]

---

Spiritual Warfare & Sacrificial Calling

[20:49-33:10]

• Megan opens up about experiencing intense spiritual warfare when she stepped out in ministry, and asks Dallas and Amanda about their experiences.
• Dallas reveals immense family and personal challenges:
  • Medical crises, financial instability after leaving a job, and ongoing chronic illness in their children.
  • “Our marriage counselor is on speed dial.” – Amanda, honestly [28:05]
  • “‘The Chosen Curse’… when someone comes to work for us, just be prepared.” – Dallas, tongue-in-cheek [28:31]
• They discuss the subtlety, relentlessness, and creative nature of spiritual attacks—and the necessity of relying on God’s strength in weakness.
  • “It is a training like none other. Not in a strength way, in a learn-how-to-be-weak way.” – Amanda [31:45]
  • “At the beginning of the summer, I was really at a place where I was like, ‘I have no more.’ ... I’m a Bible study teacher who couldn’t open my Bible. I was just exhausted.” – Amanda [32:22]
• Megan affirms the paradox: often increased warfare is evidence you’re “exactly right” where God wants you.

---

The Theology of Suffering: Portrayal in The Chosen

[34:50-57:47]

• Megan highlights two scenes that profoundly affected her:
  1. Peter & Eden’s grief after miscarriage, paralleling ministry spouse hardships [35:21]
  2. Little James’ limp and conversation about healing [48:01]
• Dallas and Amanda explain the intentionality behind portraying marital strain and wives’ unseen sacrifices in ministry.
  • “Jesus pulls her aside and says, ‘I see you, and this is your calling as much as it is his.’” – Dallas [38:08]
• Dallas describes deep struggles they faced during writing, like their own daughter’s autism & chronic illness—these experiences inform the authenticity of the show’s pain and faith.
• They open up about the trauma and comfort available in suffering:
  • “You need to believe that I can, and you need to trust me when I don’t.” – Amanda, reflecting on a personal prayer moment [55:56]
• Authentic depiction of disappointment, acceptance, and the long process of coming to trust God if healing doesn’t come.

---

Asking God and Gethsemane Moments

[58:01-60:15]

• Megan links the struggle to ask God for healing with Jesus’ prayer in Gethsemane.
  • “Jesus… knows he can’t receive [the request], but he still asked, and he asked.” – Megan [59:00]
• Dallas: “If Jesus gives us, as always, an example of what it looks like to ask, even if the answer may be no…” [59:49]
• Radical trust and openness is “the channel”; withholding requests from God is “self-protection” that calcifies into cynicism (Amanda).

---

Representation: Matthew’s Autism and Reaching Special Needs Families

[60:51-70:36]

• Megan, a mother to a special needs child, discusses the heart behind The Chosen’s portrayal of Matthew as being on the autism spectrum.
• Dallas shares they leaned into Matthew’s “numbers guy” biblical persona and his social outcast status.
  • “I got some experience in this world. I’m a little ‘Asperger’s-y’ myself… and our daughter, of course… What if we gave him that [autistic characteristics]?” – Dallas [63:44]
• The response has been overwhelming—special needs viewers and their families feel seen.
• Amanda: Sometimes, neurodivergent people “get to the truth about God's character quicker than we do.” [67:35]
• Preview of Season Six: “The one who essentially takes leadership because of his loyalty and his literalness is Matthew.” – Dallas [70:00]

---

The Crucifixion: Behind the Scenes of Upcoming Season 6

[71:20-80:22]

• Megan asks how the crucifixion will be depicted compared to The Passion of the Christ.
• Dallas explains the careful balance—neither sanitizing nor gratuitously depicting suffering.
• The emotional and spiritual agony was as profound as the physical pain.
  • “The emotional torment is almost worse than the physical torment.” – Dallas [76:26]
  • Dallas describes a moment of total exhaustion and weeping during filming—“I have nothing left.” [78:52]
• Filming season six was a gut-wrenching experience for cast and crew, further highlighting the cost and gravity of Jesus’ sacrifice.

---

Bible Studies, Devotionals, and Preparing Hearts

[80:44-86:31]

• Amanda and Dallas share about The Chosen Bible studies—designed for small groups or individuals to “go deeper” and not just consume the show as entertainment.
• The theme for the Season 5 study is "Stronghold"—drawn from Zechariah 9’s messianic prophecy, focused on Jesus as our place of refuge even amid weakness and confusion.
  • “We just aren’t allowed to [write the studies] from a high place… we do that from a low place.” – Amanda [83:31]
  • The studies are created amidst their own suffering, mirroring the content’s rawness.
• Season 6 study will release alongside episodes to avoid spoilers.

---

What’s Next: The Chosen Universe

[87:18-89:55]

• The Chosen: Adventures (animated series) debuts October on Prime, bringing the story to children through other angles.
• Joseph of Egypt (upcoming miniseries), Chosen in the Wild (Bear Grylls series), and future plans for Moses and Acts are teased.
• “When season seven ends, you will know it’s an ellipsis… The Book of Acts is coming for sure.” – Dallas [89:53]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

“The show is a supplement to the Bible study—the show is an on ramp, not the main thing.”
— Dallas Jenkins [10:10]

“It is a privilege of a lifetime… but it has been, without a close second, the most difficult and challenging thing we’ve ever done.”
— Dallas Jenkins [26:57]

“God keeps Dallas and our family… in a place of desperation… so that we don’t get in the way of the work.”
— Amanda Jenkins [83:31]

“You need to believe that I can, and you need to trust me when I don’t. That is… doctorate level.”
— Amanda Jenkins [55:56]

“If Jesus can call Matthew, he can call me.”
— Dallas Jenkins, on autistic/special needs representation [63:57]

“I have nothing left.”
— Dallas, after filming the crucifixion scene [78:52]

---

Timestamps for Major Segments

• [04:23] — Introduction of Amanda and Dallas, overview of The Chosen’s heart and Bible study vision
• [10:35] — Testimonies of transformation, impact on cast/crew, and viewer miracles
• [20:49] — Spiritual warfare and cost of ministry
• [34:50] — Scenes exploring grief, ministry marriage, theology of suffering
• [48:01] — Little James’ healing; honest look at unanswered prayer
• [60:51] — Autism and Matthew; family representation and upcoming plotlines
• [71:20] — Portraying the crucifixion: artistic and emotional choices
• [80:44] — Season 5-6 Bible studies, what “Stronghold” means, devotional practice
• [87:18] — What’s next for The Chosen universe: Animated, Joseph, Acts

---

Authentic Takeaways

• The Chosen is a labor of surrender, seasoned by authentic personal suffering, and is intentionally crafted to point viewers to discipleship, Scripture, and relationship with Jesus.
• Real faith often involves embracing silence, enduring suffering, and trusting God even when healing doesn’t come. The cast and writers live this out as much as their characters do.
• Vulnerability, both on screen and off, creates space for grace—and The Chosen’s ministry extends far beyond TV.

---

Resources:

• The Chosen TV series and Bible studies: thechosen.tv
• The Chosen Adventures animated series: coming October on Prime
• Season 5 Bible Study, “Stronghold”: available wherever books are sold

---

Transcript

[A]

It's okay not to be perfect with finances. Experian is your big financial friend and here to help. Did you know you can get matched with credit cards on the app? Some cards are labeled no Ding Decline, which means if you're not approved, they won't hurt your credit scores. Download the Experian app for free today. Applying for no Ding Decline cards won't hurt your credit scores. If you aren't initially approved, initial approval will result in a hard inquiry which may impact your credit scores.

[B]

Experian what's up fam? Listen, if you've been blessed by In Totality the podcast, then I want to personally invite you to go deeper by joining our Patreon community called the Village. Every Tuesday morning, the Village members get early access to the full episode of the podcast two days before it drops publicly on YouTube. So while everyone else is waiting, you're already soaking it in. But that's just the beginning. And as a Village member, you get exclusive access to the In Totality Docu series. It's a behind the scenes look at how I walk on my faith in real life. No filters, no fluff, just real moments of me trusting the Lord, processing life, and growing in truth. We also do live book club zoom calls where we read and grow together in the Word. I'm not just talking at you worth walking through it together, asking questions, wrestling through scriptures, learning to follow Christ more fully. You know, like that Romans 12. You'll also get bonus content, extra conversations with podcast guests that go even deeper, plus moments that didn't make it to the episode but were just too good not to share. And one more thing, when you join the Village, you get first access to merch before it drops public. So if you love the message and you want to rep the movement, you'll get first dibs every time. But more than the content, the Village is about community. It's a safe place for believers to connect and grow and be reminded that you're not doing this walk alone. You're a part of something real. We're building something special and we would love for you to be a part. So hit pause, go to www.patrion.com MeganAshley and join today and I'll meet you there. Are you done filming? I can't wait to talk about that.

[A]

Anyway, all the scenes that have been the most impactful, that have changed people's lives the most, are all the ones that I remember in the moment when I was writing, going, this, this feels downloaded. That's always how God works. I didn't Want to do the walking on water scene?

[B]

Really sad for a while.

[C]

He would not.

[A]

I'm just, like, crying and. And, like, weeping and arms out to God and saying, I need you. I have nothing left.

[C]

I mean, I'm a Bible study teacher who couldn't open my Bible. I was just exhausted.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I'll give you sneak peek of season six.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

So.

[B]

What'S up, you guys? Welcome back to another episode of In Totality. I'm your host, Megan Ashley. Now, this is a very special episode. I am so excited. We've been anticipating this episode for a few weeks now here in at my house and with the In Totality crew, I am so excited to welcome my guest, my very special guest, all the way from Dallas. Dallas, yes. And Amanda Jenkins. How are you guys?

[A]

We're very excited to be here. Yes, I know. Yeah. Whenever I travel through Dallas, they look at my ticket and they're like, what's happening?

[B]

Are you going to Dallas?

[A]

I know, but we're. We've been looking forward to this too. This is really fun. And I love, love what you do. Your heart for discipleship and authenticity, which.

[B]

Is what we're all.

[A]

So, yeah, we're really excited to do this.

[B]

Thank you guys for coming. I'm so excited. I'm excited that I get to do both of you guys. I get to interview both of you.

[A]

Yeah. I've seen so important, you know. Yeah. You want to talk to her more than me, But I've seen your previous episodes, and you always. It's a lot of times it's like women sitting on the couch and they're all snuggled in and sitting. Crisscross applesauce. And I just said, I want to.

[B]

Make it clear, like, I'm not.

[A]

That's not happening. So you're going to need a little bit more room for me.

[B]

Okay. Anytime we have, like, males on the pod, they're always like, I don't know how to sit.

[C]

What's happening here? Yeah.

[B]

Comfortable. It doesn't matter. We're just hanging out. I'm so excited you guys are here. If you guys don't know, Dallas is the creator, director, and writer of the Chosen. And you guys know, if you've been following me and you've been part of my Patreon community, if you've been watching, you guys know how much I love the Chosen. And so to have you guys here is so exciting. So thank you. Thank you so much.

[A]

This is great. Thank you.

[B]

And Amanda is over all the extra content. Right. So you do the Bible studies and all the extra stuff. So tell us about your role, because I think we know Dallas. I'm sorry, you are important, but we know about you. We know a little bit about you.

[A]

Talk past me. Get to her.

[B]

We know Amanda. We want to know about you and your role when it comes to the chosen world.

[C]

Yeah, I mean, I'm a high. I'm highly opinionated, and he's very gracious. So I get to. I get to give all my opinions, and then occasionally they're not taken, and I'm like, what is happening? But, yeah, no, we, We. I do a lot of the casting. I'm a part of a lot of the casting stuff. And. And then we do. We take the scripts and we turn them into Bible studies or devotionals. Not actually the scripts themselves, but we find their themes, and then we go to scripture because we really are passionate about as. As much as we love this show and. And making a television show. We don't want people to land there. We want people to land in scripture, in podcasts, in discipleship, and. And so that's really our heart. So in between seasons, I think first and second season, people.

[A]

Yeah, we didn't know when we first started, we weren't thinking we're going to do Bible studies and devotional books and all that kind of stuff. It was, you know, when we started this show from scratch, I mean, it was, you know, we didn't know if.

[C]

We were bringing it to the next episode.

[A]

We didn't know if we were going.

[C]

To let alone the next season, a full season.

[A]

So we were just doing one thing at a time. But I think that's what you're about to share is.

[C]

Yeah, we just had a lot of feedback after the first season of people wanting more and when's the next season coming out and wanting more additional content. And we thought, what an opportunity to give them something more while we have to, you know, write and shoot and produce another season.

[B]

Yeah. So tell me pretty organically. I think it's really important that. Because I think, you know, when it comes to the show is just so good. Right. And it's entertaining and it would have been easy to just leave it at that. But you guys actually have a heart to lead people back to scripture. Talk to me about that and why that's so important for. For you to. Now that you've. You're like, okay, we have seasons. We.

[C]

We're.

[B]

We're good. How. Why was it. Or what was that. That realization or conviction to be like, we want to draw people back to scripture. We don't want people to just watch the chosen and feel like they've. They've read the Bible, Right?

[C]

Yeah, well, because they haven't. And that. That's what's interesting about the show. The show is based on biblical principles. There is scripture throughout. But we don't know what Jesus's conversation with Matthew was over the fire. Like, we have to make that stuff up. We have to use imagination and. And what's plausible. You know, we. We always say what. What guides the writers of the show is what's biblically plausible.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And then we have all these scholars that kind of oversee that and go, yeah, that. That could have been how that worked out.

[A]

Yeah. Our big thing is we. We never want to violate or contradict the character and intentions of Jesus in the Gospels.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So not everything in the show is directly from Scripture. Right. So we know that. And so we say up front, before you even watch frame one of the show, it says, viewers are encouraged to read the Gospels. This is based in the Bible. I've always said, I'm not God. Jonathan isn't Jesus. The show isn't the Bible.

[B]

Right.

[A]

And we're not adding to the Bible because your Bible has not changed since the chosen came out. There's nothing new in your Bible.

[B]

Right.

[A]

Since the chosen came out.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we recognized right away both the opportunity and privilege we had, but also the. The responsibility that we had to make sure that we viewers know this isn't the thing. We're pointing you to the thing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Right. We want you to go deeper into God's word. And. But also, we saw it happening. Right. You know, they'd watch the first episode or two, and they'd go, wait, okay, so who. What's that from? And they go into their Bible to go to is which part was. In which part wasn't. And they became much more aware. And then they realized, I mean, they would say to us, like, well, what does this mean? And why did you do it that way? And we thought, okay, this is. They're looking for discipleship.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

When you know Jesus more, what do you want to do? You want to worship and you want to be discipled. Yeah. If you don't want to worship, you don't want to be discipled. You probably don't know and love Jesus enough yet, right?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And the show we found all over the world, people were saying, I. I want to know and love Jesus more. And so we're like, well, okay.

[C]

And we were finding that a lot of the people had no exposure and so we're really intimidated by a big, by the big Bible. And so what we're trying to do is we're trying to make that a little more accessible. So we're breaking it down. We'll study a passage and then we' taking you through. And we're even defining terms like that. Sometimes those of us who've been around for a while take for granted like, like holy or righteous. So we actually will pull out Lamb of God. So we're pulling out, you know, and we have margin notes of this is what that word means or this is what the tradition or the context of this at the time. So we just have a real passion of, of, of shepherding people toward the source. The show isn't going to last forever and we want people, we want that piece of it to go on long after the show.

[A]

I think we ultimately realized we use this phrase sometimes. And look, the Bible study, the season five Bible study is right here. What a coincidence.

[B]

This is the season five.

[A]

This is the season five Bible study. And it takes each episode and the episode is just a launching pad. This is a Bible study. This isn't a show study. The show kind of introduces you to some of these things that maybe you hadn't known before, hadn't heard of, or maybe you have, but you didn't quite understand it. And then we go deeper into it. But the idea is the Bible study isn't a supplement to the show. The show is a supplement to the Bible study.

[B]

Yeah, that's good.

[A]

There are some people who will watch the show and that's all they're going to do.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And over a third of our viewers are not traditional believers. They just like the show because it's the show and we don't know what's in everyone's hearts. We don't know we let God do that work. But there is a large chunk of people who watch the show who really do see it as a supplement towards deeper scriptural stuff.

[B]

Yeah. What has been the. Because I am curious. You said third of the people that watch the show are not traditional believers. I'm interested to hear some of the testimonies and miracles that you've heard as a result of maybe some non believers watching the show and then their hearts being changed. Because I, I think of in the Book of Acts where, where Peter preaches after the. The day of Pentecost and he preaches and it says then their hearts were pierced. And I think that there's something miraculous that happens when the gospel is on display and when it's preached and when it's proclaimed is that hearts are pierced and something happens.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And so I'm interested to hear how or what maybe some stories that you've heard of hearts being pierced because of what the Lord has done in the work of the chosen.

[A]

So it's really interesting is that it starts with our own cast and crew. So over half of our cast and crew aren't believers or traditional believers, or at least at the beginning weren't. That. That those numbers have changed over the course of a few seasons. And what you just said is what made me think of this is that we have had it happen multiple times, as in almost every time that a cast member is in a scene where they are actually quoting Scripture. So we have lots of dialogue where it's just not from Scripture, where it's hey, hello, and that's not in Scripture. And they're talking about food or they're talking. You know, we just see them in their daily lives, which is how we kind of like to contextualize these great Bible stories, is remind people that they're human beings. And then they get to the part, the scripture part. And it has happened countless times. In a scene where the character of Jesus, played by Jonathan, is calling someone to follow him, like, demanding that they make a choice about who he is. Where the actor who's being called or healed or even rebuked at times, but is speaking scripture has an overwhelming and unexpected emotional reaction. Wow. Where they'll say to me after the scene, I can't. Sorry, I couldn't get through that line. I couldn't get through that scene without crying. I don't know what's going on.

[C]

Their actors trying to make choices, but they're not able to make a choice in that way.

[A]

I didn't say that I'm supposed to sob there, but I couldn't stop crying because I couldn't get through that line. And I always kind of have this little smirk on my face. I'm like, yeah, no, I know what's going on. This is what happens when we speak scripture and when we. And again, we know that Jonathan isn't actually Jesus, but there's something about being faced in the reality of that scene of I'm being called, I'm being asked to make a choice, and something happens. Like you said, something happens. And that's happened multiple times. And just this season that we were just finished filming season six, one of our actors, who a couple seasons previously had texted me and said, I'm now a believer for the first Time in my life I can say I'm a believer. This gentleman is, is, is in his 40s or 50s.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

And he said and I have you to thank for making the introduction. And I thought what better thing you could hear than that?

[B]

The best.

[A]

You made the introduction? Yeah. You want that on your tombstone?

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

She made the introduction to Jesus. And this year in our Sea of Galilee set, it's in Texas. We have a lake that we use as our Sea of Galilee. He got baptized in that. Wow. In that set. And we've had that happen a few times on the show. I don't tend to give names. Yeah, they can give their own testimonies. But that's what we've realized is the people in front of us that we interact with on a day to day basis. We need to get that right. We need to make sure that our set is kind and loving and generous, exhibits the fruits of the spirit and that we're. That, that, that, that, that. That's our first like mission round zero, ground zero of our, of our, of. Of our goal and our desire is just to show Jesus to people.

[B]

Can I ask if have you had people? Because I've been following the chosen for some time and, and I love that you are very transparent. You guys invite the viewers in to the process.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

Of it all. And you share your, your highs, your lows, you share hard things with us. All the things. And I love that. I think it's, I think transparency is, is beautiful and helpful. So I'm, I'm. I know that there have, there, there are characters and actors who are on there who don't believe and are of other faiths. Have you seen that where they've converted from another religion to Christianity? Have you seen that yet on the show?

[A]

I don't know if we've had. From one religion to another. We've just had people who either know religion or, or, or in their past. Maybe they've had.

[B]

Come from a different background, come from.

[A]

A different faith background. And then this is kind of restored their faith in. But, but not from a different.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Like a non conversion or something.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

Religion. But you know, a lot of it has been a. I never realized this before. I hadn't heard this or I hadn't understood this.

[C]

That was, that's been remarkable to me is how many people actually haven't even heard some of the stories. And you know we take for granted some of the. Because they're, you know, it's so part of the culture at times. Or the Christmas story and There were so many people that haven't heard the basic stories. And I'll say too, some of the viewers that I've been like, as far as miracles go, sometimes these stories are transcending age. Like, we're having little kids, love the show and. And then, you know, up to grandmas and grandpas in spite of heavy accents in the show or complicated plot lines. And then even sometimes in the special need community when you're.

[B]

They.

[C]

People don't even have the same kind of language. Yeah. They're understanding things. And so there's something very transcendent about the content, as you were saying, how they're. The actors are reacting. We also have viewers who are understanding.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Even foreign languages at times. We've had some stories of people not even speaking the language. And somehow that's the thing that Binging the show.

[A]

Well, that's the thing that I want to make clear is that we recognize and recognized early on, and particularly in the story I'm about to share how small our role is in this. When God breathes on something, it hopefully should make it very easy for you to see that and recognize. Okay, I'm just. I'm making a pretty good show. I've worked really hard to get here. We have a great crew. I'm proud of the work that I'm doing, but I'm not this good.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I'm not capable of some of the things that are happening. And the first indication of that. And this is the story that came to mind when you asked. Yes. We have literally hundreds of thousands of stories from people who have shared with us that they have come from death to life, that they've watched the show. Something pricked their hearts and they. They came alive and. And accepted Christ. But the. The story that I think first gave us an indication of what God was doing was season one started to really take on popularity during COVID Yeah. And so that. Because that's when we decided to make the show free for people for a few weeks, we thought just as kind of a token during COVID of great graciousness. And then when the moment we made it free, the show exploded and we actually started getting more people donating and giving to the show than ever before. And we're like, okay, that's the God plan. We're gonna give it away.

[C]

It's free.

[A]

Yeah, that's actually gonna.

[C]

And we're doing better than we were.

[A]

Before, actually gon generate more income for future seasons than ever. And so then we decided to make the show free forever. But we had this mom reach out to us from China. And she said in the midst of the pandemic, because the show is. The chosen app, is available in every country. And she says, and during COVID we're stuck in our homes. And so we started watching the show. She says, I'm the only one in my family who speaks English. The show hadn't been translated yet into multiple languages. She said, my husband and my kids speak Chinese, Mandarin. And she said, and yet they're completely obsessed with the show. They can't wait for each episode. And she said, my kids, 13, 11, and 9. And so we're. And she's like, it's changing their lives. It's changing our lives.

[B]

Jesus.

[A]

And here's what I realized in that moment. I'm like, okay, I didn't know the show was going to be appealing to kids. Like, it's a, It's a challenging show. There's storylines, there's. I mean, the show.

[B]

And there's an adult. Oh, yeah.

[A]

Well, the show opens with a demon possessed woman with blood all over her hands.

[C]

It's like a parental warning. Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. So it's, it's, it's not. You wouldn't think of it as a kid friendly show.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[A]

And yet she's saying, my young kids are loving it. The show was in. Is in English. It hadn't been translated yet. Her family was loving it, even though they didn't understand the words. These words that I was so proud.

[B]

Of writing didn't matter.

[A]

They didn't even. They didn't even understand them.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so age, gender, ethnicity, culture, language, all of those hurdles that typically are come between, you know, an artist and the viewer were all completely gone.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that's when we realize, okay, God's doing something. He has something to say, and we're just wanting to make sure that we don't get in the way of it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so that's something that I just want to make sure that, that, that, you know, and that anyone listening understands is that we recognize our place in this.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

We're not this good.

[B]

Yeah. You're like, I'm good.

[A]

You know, I'm pretty good. You know, like, I've retired a couple scenes. I nailed that scene. Yeah.

[B]

But.

[A]

But all the scenes that have been the most impactful, that have changed people's lives the most are all the ones that I remember in the moment when I was writing going, this, this feels downloaded. This feels. This feels like this is something I wouldn't have necessarily thought of on My own. And that's always how God works.

[B]

I'm interested in. And I have a few things because I'm interested in this. I. The only thing that I can relate to for me, and I'm just giving context to what I'm getting ready to ask you. Jackie and I did a conference in last year, almost a year ago, and was the Acts 242 conference. And we had 7,000 people there. And I had never experienced the intensity of warfare that I experienced because of the magnitude of what we were doing and, and, and how intensely Satan hates when we make disciples. Right? Because that's what we're commissioned to do. I believe that that is the purpose of a Christian is to love God, love our neighbor, and make disciples. Right. Our assignments all look differently in how we do that, but that is the purpose of our lives. And so Satan hates that, and he's going to do all that he can to stop us from doing that. And so I'm interested in the warfare that you guys have experienced in doing this work because you're putting the name of Christ, the story of our Savior and of our God and, and of our faith into the homes of millions of people all around the world, right? Which is what God has called us to do. Make disciples of all nations, right? And so you're. You're expanding the gospel and spreading it in, in such a creative and powerful way. And so I cannot imagine the type of warfare that you guys have experienced, maybe even individually, relationally, collectively with the, with the cast and crew and production and all the things. I'm just interested in what that has been like for you guys now going into season six. I know that you guys are. Are you done filming? Oh, gosh, I can't wait to talk about that. Anyway, finish six, you have one more season left, right, of the Chosen. So seven seasons. I can't imagine the type of warfare that you guys have experienced. Can you give us some insight on what that has been like?

[A]

It's been 100, smooth sailing, not a single thing. We just have it all together. So we'll just. We'll just disciple you in that God never allows bad things to happen to people who are serving Him. You know, so rich now and famous.

[C]

Let's reign it in.

[A]

Okay?

[B]

Let's.

[A]

When the Chosen first began, and it began out of it. It was launched out of failure. I had a career failure. My movie bombed. And long story, very long story short.

[B]

Okay, real quick, guys, question. Have you ever needed money faster than your next paycheck? Maybe it's A car repair, groceries for the week, or a surprise bill that just cannot wait. Those moments are so real and they don't care whether your payday is two weeks away, you shouldn't have to wait for a calendar date to use what you've already earned. Earn in lets you tap into your pay the moment real life asks for it. Earnnnan is an app that lets you access your pay as you earn it up to $150 a day with a max of $750 between paydays. Just download the Earnnin app and add your info. Then start accessing your pay as you work and leave an optional tip to help keep the app running for everyone. Any money you access plus tips are automatically repaid from your next paycheck. It's your money. This is not a payday loan. You're simply getting access to it sooner. There's no interest, no credit checks and no mandatory fees. Tips are voluntary and there's always a no cost option if you prefer standard processing times. If you need funds faster, Earn an offers expedited transfers for a fee. Make Earn in a part of your financial routine and join earn in's over 4 million customers making any day payday. Download Earn in today, spelled E A R N I N to the Google Play or Apple App Store. Then download the Earn in app. Type in In Totality under the podcast when you sign up. It really helps the show that's in totality under podcast. Earnin is a financial technology company, not a bank. Access limited are based on your earnings and risk factors. Standard cash outs take one to two business days with no mandatory fees. Expedited transfers are available for a fee. Tips are voluntary and don't affect your service. Available in selected states. Terms and restrictions apply. Visit Earnin.com for full details. Download Earn in today and take control of your pay. Alright guys, back to the conversation.

[A]

When we decided to leave the job that I had at the time and pursue this and so we had no, you know, didn't have a safety net. It was like we, we just knew that, we knew that, we knew that we were supposed to do this show and, and pursue it. That first two months of that decision, we had more medical crises than we'd had in the previous 20 years combined.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

Like the medical bills. Hundreds of thousands just like that. Wow. After I've left my job and we don't have like as in no income, like no income. No, no benefits. We had got, you know, thank God for the those kind of Christian health share ministries that you do like Samaritan that we did that was able to take care of all that. But my point is, I want to couch this by saying it's the privilege of a lifetime. It's the privilege of a lifetime to. To be able to recreate and portray these stories in a fresh way to a global audience. I never would have dreamed of the privilege it is to have someone from a third world country.

[B]

Mr. Monopoly here. Monopoly is back at McDonald's.

[A]

Register in the McDonald's app so you're ready to get your bag.

[B]

Two ways to peel for a chance.

[C]

To get your bag.

[B]

Physical peels with select items and digital peels with others.

[A]

To get your bag, play Monopoly at McDonald's. No purchase necessary. See rolls at [e-mail] for full details and [e-mail] to play without purchase ends November 23rd. But bonus play ends November 2nd. Monopoly is a registered trademark of Hasbro. Copyright McDonald's Country. Share with you through their Google, you know, Translate phone how some episode changed them, change changed them to see Orphans in Madagascar 3. 3, 300 orphans in a room all watching Episode 3 of Season 1 with Jesus and the kids and saying Jesus is like me. He washes his hands in the streams and he makes his own food. I mean, all these extraordinary things. So I want to couch it all that. But it has been without a close second, the most difficult and challenging thing we've ever done. Our daughter has been experiencing chronic illness now since the show started. Basically it's like six years of this, of, of, of difficulty, significant medical crises in our family. We've had our, our marriage counselor on, on.

[C]

We got a good one.

[A]

Yeah. On speed dial.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Had a couple of times. Had to have had some sessions with our marriage counselor. Just going for some reason in the last month, we just have not liked each other and everything seems to be just contentious. Yeah, contentious. We actually refer to it in our company as the chosen curse when someone comes to work for us.

[C]

It's that phrase, use, use loosely. But, but it is this idea of know what you're getting into.

[A]

Like, I don't mean pretty.

[C]

Yeah, it's pretty. It's just like difficult when you choose.

[A]

To come work for our show, cast a crew or on our, for our company that's making the show five and two studios. Just, we, we will say just be prepared. You're going to start getting glitchy with your spouse. You're going to start, you know, every time we start filming, it's just you. I can't even begin to To. To enumerate the things that happen, like the cars that break down, the. It's just. It's just insane. And I. The reason I sometimes. And you're asking the question, but sometimes I'm almost hesitant to talk about it is because I know that people listening right now are like, yeah, that, you know, you get to do a TV show and you get to. You get to experience a wonderful life. Like, you can't identify with what we're going through. And I. And I. And I do appreciate that, like, we. We have been given this extraordinary, beautiful privilege and opportunity. But. But, man, it is. It has been a sacrifice. And you'd think that as the show has grown in successful, things have gotten easier. Gotten easier. Season six, the crucifixion season, hardest thing we've ever done. Most amount of family crises and medical crises that we've ever had that we're. That we're going through, that you just go, what does it stop?

[B]

You know?

[A]

And fortunately, as we're also filming the crucifixion, you're realizing, okay, the Jesus that we follow went through it worse than any of us. And so that's. That's a healthy reminder.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we also realize, okay, God is asking us to give up a little something too.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So it has been, you know, it's been no fun.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, again, I've only. I can only relate to what we did with our. With our conference and just like you said, relational tension, stuff with my kids, stuff with my health. Like, I lost vision in one eye, like, complete, like, ripped my cornea. Ripped. Just random. We got. Me and Jackie got into a car accident that could have killed both of us. Like, just random things that were happening. But. But it was evident that we were doing what we were supposed to be doing. And. And I think that it's important to share that. That although you guys are wildly successful with the chosen, but it, like, it doesn't come. Absence of warfare. But the Warfare doesn't mean that you're on the wrong track. Sometimes the Warfare can be the evidence that you're actually right.

[C]

And it's a funny thing. It's a funny thing because I'm a bit of a fighter at heart, and so it's. It always comes in some kind of a subtle way. And so suddenly I'm irritated with him, but then I realize, wait, this has been happening for two weeks. I'm not actually this irritated with him. And as soon as you see it, then I'm like, oh, okay, game On. But then that one stops, and then they get very creative, and then something else comes by and then something. So it's always. I feel like I don't want to be a person that develops, you know, falsely labeling everything.

[B]

Yeah, for sure.

[C]

Because we get in car accidents and tires blow and appliances break. It is the relentlessness of it, and it is that when we just have. We have young adult children now and two kids marrying into the family, and then they're experiencing things, and you're like, I'm sorry.

[A]

Like, this is.

[B]

You know, it's just.

[C]

It's just a strange. It's a. It's the relentlessness of it, I think that has been, I think, the biggest surprise. But then also, it is a. It is a training like. Like none other. And not. Not in a strength way, in a learn how to be weak way. I feel like I'm really finally understanding I'm not the one that's going to mount up on wings like an eagle. It's that I'm. He's gonna do that for me. I'm so low that he's gonna have to raise me up. You're. You know, there's a great Lauren Daigle song that talks about how you're my revival. You're the one that's gonna do this in me. It's not gonna be a choice that I make.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't. I just. At the beginning of the summer, I was. I was really at a place where I was like, I have no more. I have no more. And he was like, every day, just meet with me. Just meet with me. And it was a. I mean, I'm a Bible study teacher who couldn't open my Bible. I was just exhausted.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

And so he was like, I'm just gonna have other people sing over you. And we're just tell you what's true. And he just walked me out of it. But it was like a. You're not in a space of. You know, when you're working on anything for the Lord, anything that he has in front of you, and resistance comes. You're. You're not always in a space to just go, I got it.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Let me adjust. Let me make a different choice here. Let me. And I'm finding so much comfort and strength in, like, oh, I have nothing in a new way, a new application of. I have nothing to offer, which has been really helpful.

[B]

Yeah. I love. I love what you said about weakness, because I think that especially for women, I think that there is a repel that we have towards Weakness. Because I think we don't want to identify with weakness. But I do think that that is the thing that the Lord is after. It's like, I be like what Paul says he was like, when I am weak, then I am strong. But first comes weakness and identifying the weakness and relenting and giving the weakness to the Lord so that strength can be made perfect in our lives. And so I love that you said, like, okay, here's a new. Here's a new weakness. Here's a new application of that. Like, here we go. Like, I'm not trying to be strong, but I'm trying to be. I'm just want to yield to whatever the spirit wants to do through my weakness. And so I love that you said that. Now I, I am. I want to geek out just for a minute. I want to geek out on all my favorite scenes. And you guys can give me some context about that before we dive more into the Bible study in season five and in season six, because I have some questions about that. But I want to talk about a few. And I don't know what season they're in because I binge watched. So I can't tell you that I'm like, season. Yeah, I know. You know, but I want to talk about a few scenes that were very impactful for me. And it's so many that I'm like trying to make sure that I, you know, I'm trying to pick and choose which ones I want to talk about. But I'll talk. I'll start with a few that I think that are really close to my heart. And one of them was, I believe this one came first. So I'll start with this one. I want to talk about Peter and his wife.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the, those episodes where she loses. She has a miscarriage and, and Peter's struggling and she's struggling. And you. The way I am, like this, that episode where she is being cleansed in the water and he is. Oh my gosh. I'm like, that episode was brilliant to me. The like, please don't let him go. Please don't let me go.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Took me out. Okay. One of my favorite things, but because I grew up in church and I was very close to pastors wives and so it hit me so hard watching her go through that and, and the tension that so many women who are in ministry probably feel that they, you know, their, their husbands are out doing the ministry and here they are left with some brokenness and pain and loneliness. Loneliness. And so the way that that was depicted in the show. I just want to know what your heart was for that. And were those women. And were you keeping those women in mind? We were expanding that story.

[A]

Yeah. No. I'm so glad that you brought that storyline up because I think it most exemplifies our goal to, even when we're doing things, portraying things that aren't in scripture, that it's scriptural.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So it starts for us always. I will take you back. I'll get through this quickly. But I'll take you back to season one to your point about ministry spouses. In season one, Peter is called to Simon at the time, called to follow Jesus. And that means traveling, that means leaving home at times. Right. And there's this moment in scripture that's pretty quick, but where it talks about Jesus healing Simon's mother in law. That's the, that's how we know Simon was married.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so I remember at the time going, I've, I remember in early episodes when we showed Simon and Eden kind of arguing at home and I was filming the scene, I remember thinking, I've never seen a marital argument in a Bible show before. And then I realized I've never seen a marriage in a Bible show before. Like, I've never seen like an authentically.

[B]

Portrayed marriage, especially in the New Testament.

[A]

Yeah, of course. So I, I was working on the scene where Jesus was going to heal Simon's mother in law, which is his wife's mom, and I thought, oh, wait a second, this is interesting. What if he's healing Simon's mother in law? And it's, and it's as much for Eden, for his wife as it is for Simon. And it's, you know, back then, Simon would have been responsible for his family. And if his mother was sick, mother in law was sick, he would have taken her in. And so what if this is knowing that Simon's going to leave for this missionary journey or this, you know, journey with Jesus for a bit, that Eden would be feeling like, oh, my goodness, I'm. I'm home alone. I'm proud of my husband for being called, but this is difficult.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, it's easy to say. Like, I'm so proud of it.

[C]

The reality of it. Yeah.

[A]

And so I remember the phrase I see you came into my mind of Jesus pulling Eden aside and saying, I see you and this is your calling.

[B]

As much as it is his in the kitchen. I remember that.

[A]

And so I went, I'm like, I feel like there's something there. So I'm kind of writing this scene. And I went to Amanda and I said, I got this idea for the scene. And it's. Jesus pulls her aside and he says, I see you. And as soon as I said that, her eyes, like filled up with tears.

[C]

It still does it to me. Now I know it's coming.

[A]

I heard the story and she's like. Immediately she said, this is going to speak to so many spouses who are. Whose. Whose spouse is in ministry. And they get the benefit, oftentimes the person who's doing the ministry work of hearing the responses, seeing the crowds, hearing the, you changed my life or whatever. And those are the things that oftentimes keep you going. But when you're at home, or maybe you're not necessarily the one on that particular journey, you don't necessarily get that reward, even though you have made the same sacrifice. And so that was the first kind of indication of we're going to really try to lean into what it's like to be married and, and to be called and to have this incredible joy of following Jesus in the flesh. Yeah, but that things don't. That doesn't mean things all of a sudden get better.

[B]

Better. Yeah.

[A]

Right. And we know from scripture, again, even though this moment, these relationships between like Simon and his wife aren't directly from scripture, it's scriptural. We know through in the Bible that Peter experienced much persecution. What would it have been like to be the wife of that?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So then in season three, we didn't. I didn't want to do the walking on water scene.

[B]

Really sad for a while.

[C]

He would not.

[A]

No. I actually said publicly I wasn't going to do that scene. So there's a couple reasons. One, it's so big in terms of production, like the visual effects and all.

[B]

That kind of stuff.

[A]

The supernatural stuff is very difficult to do. And what I didn't want people doing while they were watching the scene was even if we did a good job of it, them going, oh, look how they made the way him walk on the water. Or I wonder how they did that. And so you're not focused on the spiritual truths in the scene, you're focused on the how we pulled it off. Right. So I said, I. And I said also, I don't know that I have a way into that scene that, that really kind of reflects what's going on in the lives of the characters. This was back in season one. I was thinking this. As we approach season three, we realized it was becoming inevitable that Jesus was doing these miracles and healing people. And we were kind of portraying that. That not. Not everyone is experiencing some of the same joys that others are. And the questions that we have when we see someone else get healed or we see someone else experience a miracle, and we don't. And so Peter on the water, you know, walking on water, having the trust to follow Jesus, but then having not quite enough faith to. To keep his eyes on him. And it started to really kind of coalesce. And the. What we were writing in Peter, how he was getting frustrated that Jesus was feeding Gentiles.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And doing miracles for gentiles.

[B]

Now, I'm sorry, just to pause that whole scene when he's feeding the crowd and Peter is having an attitude. I was like, watching that, and I feel like the Lord was like, that's you.

[C]

Oh, totally.

[B]

That is you. Yeah, that is exactly how you look to me. I mean, just mad, throwing stuff around. I'm like, oh, my gosh, this is me. Like, yeah, so.

[A]

So. So we.

[C]

And that. And I. And the thing I love about that, too, is the idea that that picture of God is always doing something amazing wherever, you know, but there's also always hard things for someone in the mix. And the idea that he just simply. We've always looked at that story as. As being, this happened, then this happened, then this happened versus all of these stories.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

There were over 10,000 people there. Right. Because they were only counting the boys. Right. The 5,000 are the boys.

[B]

Right.

[C]

So. So you have, like, about double that. And then you. All those stories, all that Pa, heartache, and then this amazing thing happens, but you forget that people are suffering and struggling in the mix. And so. And we were, to be honest, that was at a time when we were begging for healing for our own kid.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

And so a lot of this stuff, it's like, it coalesces in the story. It's also. We actually have the content to write. We know how to write this.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Wow.

[A]

So Simon is frustrated with Jesus because he's seeing miracles taking place, but his own wife is struggling with having lost a child in miscarriage, which happened frequently back then. And so what's it like when you're seeing the man you follow doing things for others, but you're still struggling.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So we wanted to portray that and explore that. And so Eden now, even though she's willingly accepted the calling, she's proud of her husband, but she's home alone struggling, and he comes home. We had this scene that just. I remember even while we were filming it, half the crew was like. Like, do you have A recorder in our phone. I mean, in our home. Because this is. Peter comes home from a trip, and she's, like, wanting him to. To say something or notice a few things. And he's just, like, completely.

[B]

Yeah, absolutely absolute minded.

[A]

Yeah. But. But happy to kind of get his groove on with her later because he's been gone for two weeks. So we were portraying all that stuff that she's now feeling resentful towards him.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And struggling with resentment towards God. And her friends notice it, and her friend. And she's like, well, I don't want to. Jesus is gone right now. I can't go to him. And he. And, and, and, and how felt like, yeah, we, you know, God is. Is. Is in heaven, but he feels distant.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And sometimes we access God, of course, through prayer, but other times it's like, no, no. God has also given us people. He's given us His Word. He's given us. And Mary Magdalene says to her, she goes, it's. It's not just. It's not just that Jesus is saying these things. It's the words themselves that can heal. So go to. Go see. Go to synagogue and get those words.

[B]

Yeah, Scripture. Yeah.

[A]

So she goes, and she gets her. Her. Her answers from. From. From the local rabbi. Well, then now Simon's out on the water, and he's so angry. And as he's walking towards Jesus while he's saying, all right, fine, he goes, faith isn't my issue. Like, I'm with you. I'm following you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But, like, you know, you're. You're feeding people in the Decapolis, and I'm right here in front of you. And. And Jesus, like, keep your eyes on me. While the storm gets worse.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And Peter starts to go, okay, I can't. I'm not quite where I want to be. I'm not quite where I need to be. And when he goes underwater. And I remember I have to give credit to my co writer, Tyler, because I was reading his draft of the script, and I got to that point, and there were some other issues with the script that I was having, and I was kind of not thrilled with how the script was turning out. That's a little insight into our process. This doesn't work. This doesn't work. This doesn't work. And when Peter goes under the water and she goes into the mikvah to get cleansed, and they're both being baptized essentially at the same time, and Jesus pulls him out, and she comes up out of the water, water. And Peter says, Don't let me go. Don't let me go. Don't let me go. And she says, don't let him go. I get emotional now. I read it and I was like.

[B]

It'S just the best.

[A]

But she says, don't let him go. I literally was like, all right, this is going to work. Like all that other stuff. We'll fix that. But this, no matter what, this is going to work. And I remember the first time I saw that scene finished because that was one of those scenes where that requires faith from me because all the visual effects, like, that scene didn't look good for, like, six months.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

Because we're in blue screens and there's.

[C]

They filmed it in a tank. And then he had to turn over the footage to the.

[A]

To the editors and to the visual effects guys. And there's. There's a wind machine going. So you have to re record all the dialogue because. Because the wind machines and the wave machines are all too loud when they're talking. So all these things. So finally the scene actually looks good. And the music came in from the composers, you know, that I work with them on. But I finally got to see the whole scene all done. One of those moments where I didn't necessarily. I'm not responsible for everything that happened in the scene because I'm not a visual effects artist. And I finally saw it all the way through, and I could barely breathe.

[B]

Oh.

[A]

And I was just like, this is what. This is what our show. This is what our show is. Is taking these moments in scripture that are given only a verse or two, but have profound eternal significance and also significant meaning for the people involved that the Bible didn't see fit to take the time to explain.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so it's like, we get a chance to explore this. And I'm like, I know I'm being ministered to. I remember my kids, when they watched this episode, said, we feel seen. Like. And I'm like, good, then that's.

[B]

That's it.

[A]

That's God doing his work through the show.

[B]

That. That was one of the most. Yeah. I just remember watching it and just, like, the silent tears. Because I think I was watching it with Jordan, of course. And, you know, like, when you're. You're, like, just silently crying in the dark, watching it tears. Because I. I could feel the heart of so many people. And just even in my personal context of feeling like, yeah, man, I'm watching you heal all these people. I have a son who has special needs, who has two incurable diagnosis, autism and Fragile X. And so. And he was the child that I believed for. He was a child that I prayed for. He was the one that I begged God for. And I had to. Friends of mine have babies who are the same age as my son Caleb, and they were hitting milestones.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And mine wasn't. And they were talking. Mine wasn't. And they were walking and mine wasn't. And, you know, the tension that you have to hold, that he's still good, that he's still God, even though he's not healing. That in another scene that, that.

[A]

That.

[B]

I feel like you guys, it just wrecked me was the scene with little James.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And. And I just thought it was so important to tell that to, to. To display that because it gives us a proper theology on suffering.

[A]

Right?

[B]

Because I think we often believe that when we come into the faith and when we decide to follow Jesus and when he commissions us and calls us that life is going to get better, but that is not true. Is that there in this life, you will face many trials, right. That. I mean, the Bible talks about, especially in the New Testament, it talks about suffering so much and how we're supposed to endure it. And so in that scene with little James where James has this limp and this hip issue and Jesus is commissioning them to go and heal people, he's like, I'm. I'm commissioned. You're gonna go heal people. You're gonna, you're gonna preach, you're gonna do all the things. And. And little James feels so insufficient and insecure because it's like, how am I going to heal these people when I'm not healed?

[C]

So confused.

[A]

Well, he's also frustrated at Jesus, going, okay, you know what? I gotta be honest.

[B]

Yeah. Like, what is this?

[A]

Yeah. And. And that again, started with the actor Jordan, who is handicapped, I mean, who has scoliosis and cerebral palsy. And when he came in to audition, I'd seen his video and I'd just seen it from the neck up, like, oh, this is a good actor. I like him. I want to see him in person, you know, so. And he walks in to do the audition and he's got this severe limp. He's. He's clearly got handicaps. And I shake his hand and I'm thinking, oh, I didn't know that. And then he does a great audition, and I'm thinking, so if I cast him as a disciple, how am I going to play that out where Jesus is healing people? And in fact, the disciples, where they had that opportunity, they were granted authority by Jesus. To go heal in the two by two sequences. And I'm like, so what do I do with that? And I just. I remember just feeling so led to be like, no, this is. This is the Bible.

[C]

You decided. You decided in season one, without even knowing if there would be many seasons.

[A]

To paint myself into a corner.

[C]

You were going to be in a corner for that. Yeah. You decided. We're going to deal with this.

[A]

We're going to have to address this theology of suffering, which isn't. Which is, again, part of the Bible. Of course you can. The theology of suffering is very, very clear throughout the Bible. But in the Gospels, when Jesus talks about persecution, he also is healing people constantly. So he's. Now we know when we look. Take it. When we look back at the Gospels, we look back at the totality of scripture, that he was using healing as a means to people's hearts. But there's still. I realized this could be an opportunity, not a difficulty, an opportunity to say that, yes, Jesus of Nazareth might not be in your house to heal you right now like he did for many other people, but there is still a call to follow him in the midst of this struggle. And so when we cast Jordan as little James, we're like, all right, we're going to have to face this. At one point in season three was the right time to do that, because Jesus is calling him to go heal up others.

[B]

He's like, all right, now it's time.

[A]

Not only are you healing people and not healing me. Yeah, you're asking me to heal others when I'm not healed. And I remember that scene was written. It's about four pages, and it would tip, which would four or five pages, which would typically take, you know, a full day or two and sometimes weeks. I mean, I've had some scenes that have taken weeks to figure out. That one took about 10 minutes.

[B]

Wow.

[A]

That poured out of the suffering we've experienced in our lives, the people in our lives. We have a daughter who's autistic. The. We've been in. You know, we've had great preachers who've had great theologies on suffering. The Bible theology on suffering just all came together.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And it just poured out. The questions that little James was asking.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

The things that Jesus was saying about. About trusting him with this. And so when little James says, why? And he says, you know, I could heal you. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And James, like, yes. He's like, I've seen it. And he goes, and do you want to be healed? He's like, what are you crazy? Of course I want to be healed. And Jesus says, yeah, I know. I could use you. I could heal. I could heal you. And that would be a great story. And little James says, yeah, that I've been healed miraculously. And he goes, yeah, and there's a lot of people with that story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because I've healed lots of people and they have this great story. Because think of, think of your story if I don't heal you, that you. The miracle of you still following me, you still trusting me, you still teaching and preaching and leading in spite of your malady, in spite of your handicap.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Think of that story that I'm trusting you with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And then my favorite part, which I think is important for people to realize. It's important for you and me and Amanda and our kids to remember, which is not easy. You will be healed.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's just a matter of time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we are not on the eternal perspective in our heart, in our head sometimes.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

A lot of times we are in the, in the, the world's perspective, in the. I'm in this life for a temporary amount of time and I want things to work out now. Yeah. And Jesus says, oh, no, no. There you. You will leap like a deer. And I can't wait to see it. And Jesus, Jonathan, even if Jesus gets a little emotional, I can't wait to see you.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Leave like a deer. It's gonna happen.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Just. Just a matter of time.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that I. There were so many things in that one scene that I think just poured out that, that, that I. That if the test of whether or not it's. If God had something to say, which I believe he did in that scene. The test, I think, was answered for me when we started hearing, when that scene was released and we heard from people all over the world, including people like Johnny Eareckson, Tada, and Nick V. People who have, have. Who have huge faith and who know God could heal them in a heartbeat. But are. Have been either Nick V. No arms, no legs, or John Erickson Todd have been in a wheelchair for decades and being told by some people, well, you just need to have faith. If you just have enough faith.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That's, that's. That you'll. You'll receive your blessing because God doesn't want anyone to struggle.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I'm like, man, that's. That, that's a poor theology and offensive and dangerous.

[C]

Well, it's. And it's, it's a, it's crushing to the person who's, who's received it. We got that when our kiddo was little and she couldn't talk yet. She was five or so, and she bounced up to me at a birthday party, and she kind of said, in her way, she communicated something in her way. And I communicated back. And I had a girl next to me. She was like, what's happening there? I was like, oh, that she's autistic. And I actually don't get offended easily. Hard to make me. I'm pretty confident. It's hard to throw me off. And so I just kind of chuckled at her lack of social graces. But she said, oh, you know, that's so unnecessary. Like, you could pray if you pray hard enough in faith.

[A]

God doesn't want that for you, you know, but here's.

[C]

But here's what? Yeah, God doesn't want that for you. And she told me about some church somewhere that has on their billboard, we don't stand for cancer. You know, And I was like, okay, that's okay. And so later I had this. Our daughter was in her bed, and I was. I was starting to hear her waking up, making movements or whatever, and through a monitor and. And I was praying, and. And I did sense from the Lord, him say, you know, you've never asked. And I thought, well, yeah, I've been accepting your sovereignty. I've been, you know, I've been believing in your goodness. And. But now, I mean, that would seem weird for me to ask. So I thought with this little, almost childlike faith, I was like, okay, I'm going to ask. And I really thought, because he was prompting me to ask, I thought, I'm going to go in there and she's going to have words for the first time, you know, And I asked sincerely, and I asked in faith, and I asked, believing, and he did not do it. And then it was even more like, you just set me up.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What in the world. It took me a long time to understand and to work through that, that he was saying, I. You need to believe that I can, and you need to trust me when I don't. Wow. And that is like college level, right? That's like doctorate level. And it took me a long time. And then cut to chronic illness with another kid, and we're in it. And then she's suffering, and she's suffering for years and all the time. And I'm back to, okay, what do I fundamentally believe about him? And I'm finding myself not wanting to ask because I don't want to be disappointed. And so how do you Reconcile those things. And the thing I love about that scene is that he asked and that when there was an answer, he cried and was disappointed and accepted. I'm not. The acceptance part for me takes. It's not as pretty as it was for a little James.

[B]

Yeah, right. James did a way better job.

[C]

James did a way better job than I would.

[A]

But for Jordan, he said that scene was for him too. Like, he's crying real tears because he's like that.

[C]

That he's working it out.

[A]

He goes, I. I read the scene. He goes, I felt seen. I felt understood. And he goes, I. You know, and I memorized it. But then I. On the day. I waited until the day to. Because it was real for him too.

[C]

And there's something merciful in the show that the show has ministered to me in. Jonathan is our friend. Jonathan. It's not Jesus, but when Jonathan plays Jesus, there's something about being able to look in the face of the one who's saying it to you. Right. And seeing his love in that moment and seeing that his love was as true as his power was in that moment, and that his knowledge and his reasoning. And so the show has, I think, helped for so many people to put a face on the other side of the. The no. Or the not yet or the weight or whatever it is to complete kind of that loop of I am good.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I am good. In spite of what you're enduring.

[B]

Yeah. And what I. What I. What just came up for me when you said that? Because I've. I've also struggled with that same thing of asking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think that the Lord prompts us to ask because it provokes a true relationship. I'm not like it. It builds this intimacy with him where now I have a real relationship with you. Because if you withhold something from someone. Right. Like, if I'm too scared to ask, do I really trust you? Do I really have intimacy with you? If I'm too scared to be vulnerable with. With the thing that is so sensitive for me or whatever, you know, do we have real relationship? And I think that that is the. That is the test with. With me is that I am sometimes really afraid to ask God for things that I know that he may say no to. But. And I think about Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemane.

[A]

I was about to say, like, that was season five.

[B]

Yeah. He actually knows he can't receive. He asked God to. To, if this. If it is possible, let this cup pass for me. But he knows that's not realistic. You have to drink of the cup. If you were. If we're going to save humanity, you have to drink from the cup. But he still asked, and he asked.

[A]

Can you take this cup from me? Can you take this from me? Could there. Could there be another way? Is what the Son of God is actually asking the Father.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Son who knew going into this what his fate would be. Fate might be the wrong word, but. But what his calling was as the Son. And he still, he asked.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I believe it was a genuine ask.

[B]

Is there any.

[C]

For sure.

[A]

But then he said, but not my will, but yours. Yeah, not my will, but yours.

[B]

And that's where we got to land.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so if Jesus gives us, as always, an example of what it looks like to ask, even if the answer may be no. Know. And so there's. There's clearly something there in what God wants of our relationship with him, in that. Yeah. You might not get the answer you always want in the moment.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But remember, I'm not just in the moment. I'm seeing for eternity. You will be healed.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

It opens the channel. Right. And. And that when you're not asking, you are holding self. This bit of self protection. Just this. In this corner. And. And I think it, I think it doesn't. It takes ground. I don't think it stays in a corner. I think it calcif. In my own experience that I. It took some ground in me and you know, we needed to walk that back and it was really, it really was just the. Okay, I'm opening you up to this corner of my fear of asking, my fear of being disappointed, my fear of feeling overlooked and all those things. And then he. I do think he rushes into those spaces.

[B]

He does. He does. I want to talk about. Because we both share having a child with. With autism and on the spectrum in common. And I know that Matthew was. Was written in a way where it brings life and visibility to those who are on the spectrum. And Matthew is such a interesting character and fun character. I think he brings such a. Just. Yeah. Brings such life to the chosen in so many different ways. And you laugh and at Matthew and times and then, and then he. And then he does things where your heart is just completely like broken for him and sat like the. How he. How you guys dealt with him and his family. I think, I think the way that you dealt with him as a tax collector and gave the cultural implications of that was just fantastic. It brings so much knowledge to what they actually like. Because for Matthew, that was it. I mean, this is a big thing for a tax collector, you know, to be a follower of Christ and what he had to endure with Peter and. And the other Jewish disciples, like, that was a big thing. So I love that you guys did that. But talk. Talk to me about giving him autistic characteristics and, and making his character that way.

[A]

Yeah. I think if we were gonna have a Mount Rushmore, of the decisions we've made that have had the most resonance or impact, Matthew's character is there for sure. When we first sat down, my co writers and me, to plot out the show, you put up sheets on the wall and you start writing things out, plot lines. And we're looking at scripture for the stories that we think are resonant. And then we start doing what's called a character profile as you go. Okay. We're going to make Matthew one of our main characters. Why? Well, think of how interesting it is that he was a tax collector and tax collectors were hate. I mean, Jesus even talked about tax collectors, put them in the same category as prostitutes and. And other sinners. Right. And so we knew they were hated, and yet. So that would have been interesting to have a tax collector join this group of this brotherhood. Right. We also know that when Jesus walked past his booth, he said, follow me, and he just dropped everything and did it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, let's explore that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so we're writing out all of his characteristics. And that's what you do with when you're writing a book or writing a show or whatever you want to understand your character and start writing. He's okay. He's a numbers guy because he's a tax collector. He's a facts guy. Like, his opening chapter is a genealogy divided into three sections of 14 names apiece. He's very precise. He chose a profession that made him a social outcast. And I'm going like, I got some experience in this world. I'm a little Asperger's ey myself. I got a touch of the tism myself, myself.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And. And then our daughter, of course. And we've done a lot of work in the special needs community. We're just very, very familiar with it. And I'm like, I. I know this, like, this is starting to, like, it's.

[C]

The light bulb went off.

[A]

Yeah. I was just like, that's interesting. And I thought, what if we gave him that? You know, again, back then there were diagnoses. But I'm like, what if we just looked at him through that lens and have him on the spectrum? And I remember Immediately realizing how that's going to speak to families with special needs, people with special needs themselves. And we've, and we just skipping ahead for just one second. We have seen people all over the world who, some of whom are non verbal and who don't watch television. But the chosen, they literally get focused in on and it's God's just doing something transcendent. And they all love Matthew. And how many times we've heard people say, like a kid say to his, his parent or her parent, oh, Matthew's like me, like God can call me too. If he can call Matthew, you can call me. So we just knew that it would speak to a lot of people. But also I thought this is one of our key ways into the humanity of this story.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

How many times have you seen a Bible project that just didn't feel human?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, yeah, we always see these people as stained glass windows or statues. And then you watch a movie or a miniseries and they still feel like stained glass windows, statues, they're like formal. Everything's presented, everything's like in the King James. Yeah. It's like.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And it's oftentimes like white people who, like Europeans, you know, portraying like Jewish people or minorities. And, and you're like, what is this?

[B]

Yes.

[A]

There's a, there's a very, there's a huge gap between reality and, and it's like, and I'm someone who loves the Bible and I love Jesus. And I'm like, I don't know that I love any of the portrayals. Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But we thought this, the humanity of this show is, is essential. And we wrote in big words on the wall, authentic. Like that needs to apply to every decision we make. It needs to be authentic. And having someone who's on the, you know, it would make sense that, yeah, autism has existed for Forever. Forever. We just haven't had a diagnosis for it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And we thought that that would be something that could be, really could speak to a lot of people, but also isn't unrealistic.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so Matthew's character has become for people on the special needs on the spectrum, but also for people who maybe don't understand everything that Jesus is doing or don't understand Christianity. Having Matthew is kind of an audience proxy, someone who kind of gave up his faith, who sees things through a certain lens and is going to ask kind of questions the audience is going to ask.

[B]

I love how curious he is.

[A]

And so that explains also the scene in season two when Jesus is writing, working through the, the sermon on the mount. There were people at the time, some people who were uncomfortable seeing the Son of God, like, work through what he's going to say.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

As though it's like a sin to, to like prepare. Right. But we know that Jesus was, yes, he was divine. He was fully divine, but he was also fully human. And, and, and we had him kind of bring Matthew into the process of writing. Now, not because he actually needed Matthew's help, but it's also like Jewish rabbis oftentimes taught through asking questions, and that's how they cause people to listen and learn. But we also love the notion of Matthew, like, trying to wrestle with all the metaphors.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

People on the spectrum, they don't get metaphors. They're like, yeah, Matthew's like, why don't you just say it like that? And Jesus, like, give me a little room to have some poetry.

[C]

But I also love that it means makes Matthew faster to certain truths too, the way his brain works, which has also been not just a tool, but also a celebration of, of the special needs community. Sometimes they get to the truth about God's character quicker than we do.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[C]

So that's been a sweet thing.

[B]

Matthew reminds me a lot of my sister. I have a sister who's on the spectrum. She was diagnosed with Asperger's when she was little. And Matthew's character reminds me a lot of her. Like, she is. She's quirky, but, like, her social filter is not always there. Sometimes she just says things at the inappropriate time. And so I love, like, there's no.

[A]

Subtext, there's no nuance. It's all just.

[B]

Madison is one of the most. She cracks me up. She has. She's just hilarious. But Matthew's character reminds me so much of her. And so I was just really thankful that the way that you guys portrayed Matthew in that, as a disciple, as a follower, and I think it speaks to so many families like ours and so many others.

[A]

So I just give you a little. I'll give you a little sneak peek. Season six.

[C]

Oh, okay.

[A]

So before you even ask, season six is. Covers the 24 hours of, of the, of the crucifixion and all the events leading up to it. His arrest, his trials is, is, you know, seeing Caiaphas, seeing Herod, all that stuff. And then ultimately the crucifixion. Well, as we know the disciples are on their own. So we know Peter and John follow Jesus towards Caiaphas. As we know John is at the cross. We know the women are at the cross. Well, there's, you know, 11 because Judas isn't there, but then, of course, Peter, John aren't there. So there's like nine disciples at one point who are all going, what the heck happened? What do we do? Who are we supposed to follow now? What is going on? He's supposed to be the Messiah, and yet he just willingly allowed himself to be crucified. They're completely lacking understanding. And I'll give you just a little spoiler. The one who essentially takes leadership because of his loyalty and his literalness is Matthew. Wow. And Matthew says, I'm going to follow the teachings of the Sermon on the Mount. Blessed are those who mourn. Blessed are those who, you know, blessed are the meek. And so he just goes, all I have right now are his words, because he's not here. And Peter, our leader, isn't here. Yeah. And he just said. Said, remember my words. So I'm going to remember his words. And he just keeps preaching the Sermon on the Mount to himself, but also to others. And what is it? Also pray for those who persecute you. And so it's Matthew. It's the one who's. The one who's like, look, I.

[C]

The social outcast who found the way back into.

[A]

Because all those of us who are. Who are so nuanced, and. And maybe we understand some things that people on the spectrum don't. Sometimes that can be a. A negative.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Because they're. They're just experiencing all this stuff. And Matthew's like, here's what I know. Pray for those who persecute you. And we're being persecuted right now, so who are we supposed to pray for? And they're like, I'm not praying for Judas. I'm not praying for the Romans. I'm not praying for the, you know, the. The Jewish guards who arrested him. Matthew's like, well, that's what he told us.

[B]

What he tells you to do. Yeah.

[A]

So that's the thing that. That I love. I think you'll appreciate that before we.

[B]

I want to. I want to finish with. With. With season five in the. In the Bible study and just your heart for that and. And how we can engage with season five with the Bible study. But I do have quickly, because I know we got to get out of here. I do quickly want to talk about just a few things that I know that's happening in season six, because I know season six is the crucifixion, which I know this is the tension that we've all been building up to. And okay, number one, I know that we're all thinking about the passion. That's all we know. Right? We know the passion and we know what that looked like. And I thought that they did a. As close as possible, a good job when it came to Jesus being whipped.

[C]

The brutality.

[B]

The brutality of it all. I think that they did a really good job. But I did notice in season five where Jesus is in the Garden of Gethsemane. We don't see him this. The. The drops of blood. I noticed that you didn't depict that. And so it made me question. I was like, I wonder how they're going to.

[A]

To.

[B]

To approach the crucifixion. I wonder if it's going to be soft and. You know what I mean? And cute.

[C]

We're gonna make it easier.

[B]

I was like, are you gonna give us an easy thing? Because. Because I get it. You don't want. I mean, you. Like you said, the. The viewership is. So why. You don't want to traumatize people either, but you want to give the truth of what happened. Right. But I. But.

[A]

I got you.

[B]

Yeah. I'm just interested in what you're going through.

[A]

I'll explain. I'll explain the drops.

[C]

Well, I know drops.

[B]

And then. Please explain. And then when you explain to me that. Explain to me because I. You sh. You gave us a glimpse of how intense the crucifixion was with the cast. And you posted like you guys were all. And it wasn't like you guys were filming. Y' all were crying, you were hugging your cast and pray like you. And then that ends with you two hugging. And she.

[A]

She was hugging me. Yeah. You were sobbing, weeping in her shoulder.

[B]

I'm like, wow. I'm just interested in what that moment was before we get out here.

[A]

Yeah. So first of all, the reason you didn't see blood when Jesus is sweating is twofold. Number one, the most common interpretations of that scripture is that is. Is the word sweat, like drops of blood.

[B]

Okay?

[A]

So there is. There is debate about it, okay. That whether it was he was actually sweating blood or the sweat was like drops of blood, like thick drops of blood is what it was like. So. So I'm not going to solve 2000 years of debate over that. And I'm not the expert, but I also know that while we were shooting it, I did want some, because I thought at the very least, the intensity with which he is praying and the passion with which he is feeling this and squeezing, all that kind of stuff, that's what some people have identified as being what could have been the cause of capillaries to burst or whatever? So. But he's sweating so profusely. So we did actually put in some blood. It. It doesn't show.

[B]

Yeah, it's dark.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's dark. And also when you. When you get, like a cut and you're also sweating and there's water coming, like, blood doesn't come out. Like black.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, you know, deep red. It kind of mixes in with the sweat. So we actually did have some. Some blood in there. It just gets lost in the sweat anyway, so. So I. I felt bad that some people who are kind of expecting, like, I want to see drops of blood, they get almost distracted by either the blood or the lack of blood. I don't think there was a good way out of that. But there is interpretation. Many, Many scholars do interpret that as he was sweating, like, drops.

[B]

Got it.

[A]

Not actually. So there's. That. That's different from the crucifixion. No, I'm not going to just show sweat in the crucifixion. There's. There's a lot of blood on the crucifixion. There is a middle ground that we need to find, and I believe we did, between. So brutal, you can't even watch it because it's.

[B]

It's too much.

[A]

It just becomes. It's not even artistic. It's not even. It's just. It's just. You're almost like. And I think the Passion of the Christ, which I thought they did an effective job, but there were even times in that where.

[B]

Yeah, you can't watch it where I'm like, yeah, and.

[A]

And so. And we're. We're not a movie where we're going through these things quickly. We're spending a lot of time on this over the course of. Of. Of multiple episodes. And so there's certain things you can't ever fully capture in a movie without. Without it with it even being possible for some people to watch it. So there's. There's. That I want to be conscious of. Then there's also the. Well, we can't sugarcoat it either. And we can't make it look like he was just getting slapped around a little bit. And so I. I believe we found an effective middle ground. I don't think anyone's going to come away lacking an appreciation for what Jesus went through, the absolute physical torment that he went through. But we spend as much or more time with the spiritual torment, the emotional torment, the scene that on social media that there was a Video that was released that showed us kind of reacting to it because we did want people to kind of understand. Just the BTS team, the behind the scenes team, was like, we do want people to kind of understand what is happening right now as we're filming this. The emotional torment is almost worse than the physical torment. What they must have felt like being there for hours. You know, hours and hours throughout the day, including darkness. Remember, darkness came over the land for several hours. And they're disoriented and they're confused and they're sad. And Jesus's mother is there watching her son get brutalized. And so we're filming this scene out in Italy, and it's in the middle of nowhere, and it's on difficult terrain, and the crew doesn't speak English, and I'm away from home. And all of us, a cast who've been with each other for years, are kind of trauma bonding, in a sense. Seeing our friend Jonathan go through both artistically rendered pain, but also literal pain, too, because it's so uncomfortable. And he's getting scraped up by the wood and he's getting pulled and pushed, and it's just. It's. It's so challenging, and it's hot and he's. And. And he's been dealing with. The makeup is painful and sticky and all this stuff. So everything is difficult. Nothing like what Jesus went through. Yeah. But very, very difficult. And there's a scene where he's being pulled up onto the cross. So he would have been attached to a cross beam, pulled onto what's called a stipes, which is this post that comes up out of the ground and has a groove in it. And they would pull using ropes and a pulley system, kind of pull him up, and then it kind of fits into this groove and it's. And so the scene is. The Romans who are pulling him are yelling and pull, pull. And Jesus is. Jonathan, as Jesus is like, screaming out and yelling. And I'm seeing the. All my actors and my friends at the foot of the cross weeping for real, with real tears. And I'm. Now I'm. I'm experiencing it for the first time, too. I'm normally pretty calm, and I'm. I'm. I like to lead through calmness. And I'm the strong one, which is an understatement.

[C]

You're not. You're not pretty calm. You're only ever calm. Steady hands. Yeah.

[A]

And. And of course, I've been wrestling with this for. For months. I've written it with my writers. I've prepared it. So for me, it's not usually always an emotional experience, but this. This was like, this got me. And I'm walking down to the set, and I start doing what I do, you know, with the. With the cast where they're just weeping. Some of the women are, like, physically shaking, like, having a hard time recovering. Wow. And so I would just kiss them on the forehead and hug. And I'm realizing, like, I. I got nothing. I'm spent. And I start crying. Like, I'm like, I'm not getting it together, you know? And I'm standing, and there's 200 people around me, and they're all kind of setting up a shot, and everyone's got a job, but I'm like, I. I need to. To go. So I leave. I walk away. I go to the edge of this cliff. Not because I was thinking of jumping, like, it was the only place I could get away from everybody. And I'm like, I got to get myself together so I can do the job that I've been tasked with. And then I can also lead. So for five minutes, I'm just, like, crying and, like, weeping and arms out to God and saying, I need you. I have nothing left. And also gratitude for what he did and the visceralness of what he would have gone through, and everything was so visceral. And I'm just physically spent. And I finally gather myself. I come back to the set, I'm like, all right, got it. All right, here we go. You know, ready to lead. And they go, amanda's here. And I haven't seen Amanda in two weeks. And they're like, she's here. And she's, you know, so she comes around the corner, and I'm, like, going to see her. And she sees me, and she's like, you know, hey. And she's all excited, and I literally and burst into tears, like, just like this. And she's like, oh, okay.

[C]

All right, here we go. Happening. I'll find out later.

[A]

And so she just hugs me, and I just. My arms are at my sides. I can't even lift my hands up, and my head's just in her shoulder, and I just wept. Season six is brutal. It is brutal. And we've been walking with these characters, like, in the Bible, even when we're reading it just a couple of verses while in the show. That's what I love so much about the opportunity to the show is we've had time to really develop these characters. And so when you see the friends of Jesus, the Family of Jesus, and yes, even the enemies of Jesus who you have a connection to, face this reality. It is painful. In the first day that Jonathan showed up, the first scene that we filmed with him covered in blood, it's a scene that we filmed that took place after the scourging. So we hadn't done the scourging yet, filmed it, but he comes on set and he's got the crown of thorns. He's got the covered in blood. He's got the purple robe on because he's been mocked. And he's going to carry this cross through the streets. That's the first scene that we filmed of him. And we all. It was a. It was a. It was a moment. I mean, it was hard to. Hard to look at. I went up to him and I just said, here we go, you know, and we kissed each other on the cheek, and I hugged him. And as I pulled away, I've got now, you know, blood on my face and on my. You know, and on my script and everything. And I'm like, this is. This is what we're gonna be doing for the next few months.

[B]

Wow. Wow. I mean, I'm. I feel like season five built up so much. Much intensity and anticipation for season six. And. And the way that you guys depicted the Last Supper, I thought it was beautiful. The flashbacks and how you walked through the last. I mean, the Last Supper, it was just absolutely beautiful.

[A]

And in.

[B]

In this Bible study, you. You labeled it the stronghold. And so just tell me a little bit about that before we go and how we can engage with the. The season five Bible study as we walk through season five preparing for season six, because I think that's what, like, we need to get our hearts ready for what we're gonna see right in season six. And when does season. Do we have a release date yet or.

[C]

No.

[A]

I want to make sure people remember. It takes longer to make the show than it does to watch it.

[B]

Right. Like, it takes time. I know we were ready for it now.

[A]

So season six, it's gonna take some time because, a. It was the longest season we've ever filmed. 86 days. A lot of visual effects, a lot of big things that we have to do. And then also we want to translate it into dozens of languages so that it comes out all at once around the world.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

So far, it's come out, like, in piecemeal around the world because it takes time to translate the languages. So it'll be, you know, sometime around the fall of 2026 is when the first six episodes come out in theaters. No, it's going to come out to streaming because the finale, which is a. Which is the movie, the actual crucifixion is movie length. And that's going to be a theatrical, global theatrical release in early 2027. And so that's.

[C]

We want that to be that worldwide experience where we know that it's in the different languages so we can all be doing this.

[A]

This will be a global theatrical release for the crucifixion. But yeah, so the, The Bible studies, we've done one for each season, but this is, this is really the heart of where we're at, is. Is ultimately going deeper into God's word that the show is based on. But the season five. Why did you call it the stronghold of the Chosen? The Holy Week is not exactly. Jesus is actually showing weakness.

[B]

Weakness.

[A]

Yeah, weakness more than strength.

[C]

Well, you enter into season five and he's. He's coming into the city, he's coming into Jerusalem and waving palm branches and they're yelling for him. And it's this fulfillment of scripture in Zechariah 9 that talks about he's going to enter on a donkey, and it's Zechariah 9 that calls him the Stronghold, who has our hope. And yet within a few days, he's going to be arrested, tried and crucified. And the confusion of the disciples in that moment, as Dallas even mentioned in the upper room, and not seeing the full picture and not knowing the full plan and just. Just the utter confusion, loss, disappointment, devastation, all those things that they would have been feeling. And yet he's our stronghold and our hope. And I would say that a lot of what we've been talking about has been that God keeps Dallas and our family and our co workers and writers and everything in a place of desperation, very much on purpose, so that we don't get in the way of the work, so that we don't ever go off course. Yeah. So that we're always desperately looking. You know, we spend our days in a. Desperate looking.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Just in a blaze of. Of raw emotion. And. And that's where both my co writer, Doug Huffman, who was our Bible professor in college and is now one of our New Testament scholars on the show, we do the Bible studies together. And he personally was in a terrible place and I was in a terrible place, just with circumstantial circumstances and then having to go, now we need to go write a Bible study. And we just didn't. We aren't allowed to do that from a Place of. From a high place. I would say we do that from a low place. And so I got to learn how Jesus, even in the midst of really difficult circumstances and that you cannot see your way through, is somehow our stronghold. And what does that mean? Like, truly, not just an internal. Not just. He's our hope, future hope, heaven. Because that's true. We're gonna be all. Be healed. No more tears. That's all true. But in this moment, too, there's hope. And. But I didn't. I don't always get that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't always operate in a real way in that space. And so this is a true look at scripture, the character of Christ, verse by verse. What does that mean? To retreat to your stronghold? You know, strongholds were in the side of a mountain. Literal, physical stronghold. Armies would go to retreat or hide or rest. Whole cities, whole. It was a place of refuge. And that is what Jesus is even in that week. Even in the week of the worst week of his life. No doubt. And. And. And so what does that mean for us? And so we just explore that. And I. I got to learn it first. I would say I'm just a little ahead of our readers.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[C]

But that was. That was what it was about. And I do feel like leading into. You know, we all dread season six. The actors, the crew, the audience, everyone's dreading it, but in a very appropriate way. Like, we all have to look into the face of what he did, but to be able to know who he is, it makes all the suffering even more potent, powerful, and of course, where it's ultimately going.

[B]

That's awesome. And the Bible study is available now, so people can go get it now. Where can they find it? I mean, they chose an app, but they.

[A]

Anywhere you get your books. Yeah, Amazon, all that. But, yeah, this is. Each season, we've done a devotional book and a devotional book. Bible study and. Did I say devotional book?

[C]

And a devotional book. We've done so many devotional books.

[A]

I'm so articulate. But a Bible study and a devotional book where. Because our heart really is for you to go deeper. And the show is just it. We're not gonna be watching TV shows in heaven. Yeah, The. The show is. Is an on ramp.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To. To deeper.

[B]

Will you have one for season. I know you'll have one for season six. Will it be out before the season comes out so that we can go through the Bible study as we're watching.

[C]

Season six, it typically has spoilers.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

So it usually Comes out around the same time.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

So by the. It's.

[B]

It's.

[C]

It's a timely release near the end of a season. So we're not wrecking the show.

[B]

Okay.

[A]

But you can. But, yes, you can watch.

[B]

The idea is to watch it together.

[A]

To watch it together. So you watch the episode. It's for small groups or for individuals, but you watch the episode and then you use that as a launching point in the city.

[B]

I love that. I'm so excited to watch season six when it comes out in the fall. I love. Because when the seasons come out, I go to the theaters and I watch them, and then I have that time where it's like, okay. And I get to rewatch them again when they come out on the streaming. And so I love that it never gets old. I can rewatch it from the begin. Like, it's like. It's my first time watching it just because. Just like the word. It's like you can open this up and you read something, you learn something new. There's new Revelation. It's, you know, it's a living word.

[A]

And your kids watch it, too?

[C]

Like.

[B]

Yeah, the kids watch it. We all watch. We love it. We just. Yeah, it's just. It's an amazing.

[A]

Because we now have.

[B]

The Chosen adventures are coming.

[A]

The animated show that's coming out on Prime. I don't know if you're listening to this before, after it's come out, but it comes out sometime in October.

[B]

October. Okay.

[A]

I think. But yeah, it's. That. That's. Adults can enjoy it too, for sure, but that's where kids can get even more kind of. They see Jesus through the eyes of Abigail and Joshua. The characters from season one, episode three.

[B]

Yeah, the. The kids.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And so you get to see these stories through. Through a child's perspective.

[B]

Okay, can you give us one last spoiler? I don't know if it's a spoiler, but what can we expect from the chosen universe of. Of. Of shows? I know that you hinted to this in season five when we were at the theaters. You talked. So can you just quickly tell our viewers what we can expect.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

In the coming years? Because season seven is going to happen before we know it and be waiting to watch something else.

[A]

Yeah, no, no, right now. I mean, right now, today. I mean, even filming is taking place on Joseph of Egypt. I mean, our Joseph miniseries. So I'm right now still supervising the scripts for that. I mean, we. Even though I'm not the one who's directing it, it's still Our project. And so that's filming in New Mexico at the moment. So it's an eight part miniseries about the story of Joseph in the Old Testament, which is a beautiful, beautiful story and a precursor of the story of Christ. If it's the Chosen Adventures, the animated show that's coming out, we've got the Chosen in the Wild with Bear Grylls where Bear Grylls, the famous action adventurer took five actors and myself. There's six episodes taking us out in the wild and kind of outside of our comfort zone and really got real and authentic, which is really cool. Cool. But then I'm. When I'm done with The Chosen Season 7, I want to take a nap for a few months. Yeah, you deserve that. But then we want to get into the Book of Moses show that we've talked about, which is the. The story of Moses and the Exodus. And yeah, we're going to get into the Book of Acts, the continuation of the story. But I think the actors and I need a break for a bit.

[C]

We'll go to Moses places, then we'll.

[A]

Come back together and talk about the portray the birth of.

[B]

So Acts will be kind of a pickup of how seven season chosen. Season seven ends. Okay, I'm really excited because I just love when.

[A]

Cheese. Where are we? I just love it. We're writing season seven now.

[B]

Like introducing Paul and all the. Yeah, I just. That would be really exciting.

[A]

So I'll just let you know. Again, spoilers. Careful. But we're writing season seven now. But when season seven ends, you're about.

[C]

To say what you're about to say.

[A]

No, when season seven ends, you will be. You will. You will know that it's a. An ellipses. It's.

[B]

It's okay.

[A]

It's season that. The Book of Acts is coming for sure.

[B]

I can't wait. I'm so excited about that. Thank you guys so much for coming and sharing your heart and sharing. This has just been amazing. I could ask so many questions because again, I'm like a chosen geek. I'm like, I want to know all the little details. I'm like, how did you think of that?

[A]

But we'll have to come back sometime.

[B]

Please come back. I would love for you guys to come back.

[A]

Jackie Hill all the time on your show.

[B]

Maybe we can come.

[A]

We can come back.

[B]

Come back whenever you want. When season six comes out, I want to know all the things. I would love to have you guys back. I would love to hear more about your Bible studies. I can't wait to dive into those. I didn't even know you guys had one for every season. So this was news to me. I'mma make sure for all of you listeners and everybody that's watching, I'm going to put all of them on my Amazon storefront so you have access to them. If you haven't watched the Chosen listen, go watch it from if you like, list that this is a show worth binge watching. But do it with someone and do it with your Bible. Like watch it, go to scripture, wrestle with the Lord, pray through the things that you're seeing. Pray through the things that you're reading. And I really do believe that the Lord will meet you in those moments. So Dallas and Amanda, thank you so much. It's just been a joy to have you and I pray you come back. And I can't wait to come to Dallas. Yes, I want to come and I want to come to all the things and see all the things and come to chosen that you guys have like a chosen con or something like that. Like I've been, I'm like, I want to go, man, this looks so much fun. I want to meet on all the characters. So yeah, I just, I'm just thankful for you guys and thank you guys. Go watch the Chosen. Go stream it. It's out. Season five is out right now. Get the Bible study and make sure you stay tuned for season six. It's gonna be a rough one for us guys, but we're gonna get through it. I love you guys and we'll see you next week. What's up, you guys? I hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you felt encouraged in some way. Be sure to like and follow into Tality podcast everywhere you listen to your favorite shows. Follow into Tality on Apple podcasts or Spotify and be sure to turn on your post notifications so that you can be the first to listen whenever there's a new episode.