DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura

Summary

Jay'sAnalysis Podcast Summary

Episode: DEBATE: Jay Dyer Vs Pastor Jonathan Shelley | Tradition Vs Sola Scriptura

Date: May 6, 2026
Host: Jay Dyer
Guest: Pastor Jonathan Shelley
Moderator: Dr. James Coons (Modern Day Debate)

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Overview

This episode presents a vigorous debate between Jay Dyer (Orthodox Christian apologist) and Pastor Jonathan Shelley (Independent Fundamentalist Baptist) on the subject of “Tradition vs. Sola Scriptura.” The central theme is whether the ultimate authority for Christian belief and practice is Scripture alone (Sola Scriptura) or whether sacred tradition and church authority also possess normative authority. The dialogue probes the foundations of Christian epistemology, the formation and recognition of the biblical canon, and the roles of oral tradition, the Church, and subjective experience in determining Christian doctrine.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Opening Statements

Jay Dyer (02:21-13:44):

• Argument Overview: Jay argues the Bible never claims "Scripture alone" (Sola Scriptura) but instead affirms both written and oral tradition as “the Word of God.” He asserts that both the Old and New Testaments point outside themselves towards authoritative oral tradition, supported by apostolic succession and ecclesial authority.
• Supporting Examples:
  • Old Testament: David’s liturgical commands (2 Chronicles 29); oral traditions existing prior to Moses; reference to other lost books (e.g., Book of the Wars of the Lord); prophets and judges relying on unwritten tradition.
  • New Testament: Paul instructs Timothy and the Thessalonians to keep traditions "whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15); John acknowledges Jesus did many things not written in Scripture (John 21:25).
• Challenge to Protestants: How did early Christians know which books were Scripture without a finalized canon for centuries?
• On Inspiration: The Bible is inspired but not itself divine or uncreated—it is the inspired testimony about the Divine Word, Christ.

Pastor Jonathan Shelley (14:33-21:21):

• Argument Overview: Jonathan upholds Sola Scriptura, emphasizing Christ as the Church’s sole head and Scripture as the only infallible authority. Any tradition or authority that rivals or supersedes Scripture is suspect.
• Supporting Examples:
  • “Thy Word is settled in Heaven” (Psalm 119:89)—God’s Word is eternal and unchanging.
  • The true test is internal evidence: the “divine voice” of Scripture, its preservation in Hebrew, internal consistency, and recognition by God’s people.
• Against Tradition: No church (Orthodox, Catholic, etc.) is presented in Scripture as infallible. Protestants, according to Jonathan, universally recognize the same 66-book canon—differences over the Apocrypha are deemed secondary.
• On the Protestant Reformation: Protestants returned to Scripture because the Catholic Church’s traditions corrupted original doctrine (“full well reject the word of God, that you may keep your own tradition”—quoting Jesus about the Pharisees).

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Open Dialogue & Major Exchanges

The Pillar and Ground of Truth (21:51-24:52)

• Jay: Cites 1 Tim 3:15: “the church is the pillar and ground of truth,” challenging the view that Scripture alone is the pillar of truth.
• Jonathan: Asserts the church’s function is to “hold up” or “point to” the truth (i.e., Scripture), but not to serve as its foundation or be infallible itself.
• Jay: Presses that this undermines Protestant’s basis for their own canon, asking how Protestants know the 66 books are correct—Jonathan appeals to the “divine voice.”

Oral vs. Written Tradition (25:55-41:00)

• Jay: Provides biblical evidence for oral tradition as binding (e.g., 2 Thess. 2:15; 1 Pet. 1:23–25; Paul's multi-year oral teachings).
• Jonathan: Distinguishes teaching/preaching from “the Word” (i.e., inspired Scripture), maintaining only written Scripture is infallible, yet admits oral teaching can transmit the Word.
• Jay: Points out the inconsistency that Timothy is commanded to pass on oral traditions, which Jonathan contends could be valid as long as in agreement with Scripture.
• Circular Reasoning & Subjectivity: Jay accuses Jonathan of pure subjectivity—ultimately, the Protestant canon is reduced to “I know it’s true because I hear its voice.”
  • Jay: “That’s a purely subjective argument.” (71:35)
  • Jonathan: “How do you know it’s a [divine] voice? ... My sheep hear my voice.” (71:29-71:35)

The Canon of Scripture and Church Authority (41:00-61:00)

• Jay: Repeatedly demands historical evidence of any Christian, pre-Reformation, with the Protestant canon.
• Jonathan: Confesses he can’t name any, but insists all “true Christians” must have recognized the Protestant canon because of internal testimony.
• Jay: Accuses Jonathan of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy: defining "true" Christians retroactively as those who agree with his canon (63:11-64:23).
  • Jonathan: “All of the Christians in the first century that were saved had my view… They recognize the word of God.” (63:00)
  • Jay: “That is a No True Scotsman fallacy.” (63:11)
• On Tradition: Even Jonathan admits knowing that “Matthew wrote Matthew” is based on tradition, not Scripture alone.

The Eternality of Scripture and Christ (31:21-37:29; 88:34-96:44)

• Major Clashes: Jay presses that Scripture as a created medium cannot be equated with the uncreated Logos (Word) of John 1. Jonathan resists any "separation" of Christ and Scripture, suggesting the words themselves are eternal, while conceding the paper/physical book is not.
• Jay: “Do you think that this [Bible] book in my hand is eternal?”
  Jonathan: “The physical book… yes, that’s the Bible.” (36:43-36:47)
• Jay: “So you’re a polytheist… because you believe in the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit and a book.” (36:21-36:25)
• Jonathan: “No, because the Bible teaches… the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: these three are one.” (36:25-36:31)

Historical Development, Liturgy, and Icons (61:47-66:03; 104:00-105:27)

• Jay: Highlights the lack of a fixed Protestant canon or detailed liturgical pattern in the earliest centuries; claims evidence of icons, altars, and oral traditions in catacombs, Church Fathers, and early liturgies.
• Jonathan: Maintains that early believers could recognize God’s Word without councils or lists, and dismisses the importance of patristic witness to liturgy or icons as either irrelevant or heretical.

Role of Church Fathers and Authority (71:41-75:37)

• Jay: Presses on whether apostolic authorship matters (“How do you know Matthew wrote Matthew?”). Jonathan eventually admits, “Because it was passed down… through tradition.” (73:47-73:51)
• Jay: “So you rely on tradition… you just ended the debate right there.” (73:54)
• Jonathan: Distinguishes between “good tradition” (helpful, when consistent with Scripture) and “bad tradition” (contradicting Scripture), but admits reliance on tradition for canonicity.

Challenges to Protestant Epistemology (102:11-104:00)

• Jay: Asserts the Mormon’s claimed “internal witness” for the Book of Mormon is indistinguishable, by Protestant standards, from the Protestant internal witness for their canon.
• Jonathan: Dismisses the analogy due to the Book of Mormon’s ahistorical origins, inconsistency, and lack of church acceptance.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jay Dyer (on subjectivity):
  “So you are the authority, ultimately. So you ultimately are the authorities.” (72:36-72:41)
• Jonathan Shelley (defending Sola Scriptura):
  “At the end of the day you have to appeal to something. I appeal to scripture as my final authority. Jay appeals to his, his Orthodox church.” (20:56-21:21)
• Jay Dyer (on tradition & canonicity):
  “Everything that you rely on, tradition, we have and what I articulated, argued for.” (73:57-74:00)
• Jonathan Shelley (on internal evidence):
  “You can tell the difference between Dr. Seuss and Shakespeare. There’s a gigantic difference… If God were to write a book… it is evident when God speaks as opposed to when man speaks.” (17:50-18:06)
• Jay Dyer (repeated demand):
  “Can you name somebody in the first three centuries pre-Nicaea who had your canon of scripture? …You can’t name one.” (61:49-67:13, repeated multiple times)
• On the formation of the canon:
  • Jay: “When we go read [the early Church Fathers], they give us an absolutely amazing picture of the worship, of the liturgy, of the imagery of the Eucharist, all going on in the earliest centuries of the Church.” (81:22-84:34, closing)
• Jonathan Shelley (conceding the tradition argument):
  • “That’s a tradition. I accepted that, that tradition.” (94:14-94:16, on Gospel authorship)
• Jay (on the difference between word & Word):
  • "There’s a distinction between the written text as Word and the second person of the Godhead as Word." (74:28-74:34)
• Jonathan Shelley (on his own argument’s circularity):
  • “I’ve agreed that my position’s circular. I’ve never denied that I do believe that the scripture is self authenticating…” (123:46-124:09)

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Timeline of Important Segments

• 02:21-13:44: Jay Dyer Opening Statement (Tradition and Oral Authority)
• 14:33-21:21: Jonathan Shelley Opening (Sola Scriptura and Christ’s Authority)
• 21:51-24:52: Clash over "Pillar and Ground of Truth" & Canon's Basis
• 25:55-41:00: The Role of Oral Tradition, Canon, and Circular Reasoning
• 61:47-66:03: The Protestant Canon in Early Church History
• 73:41-74:16: Admission that tradition is the basis for knowing Gospel authorship
• 81:22-84:34: Jay’s Closing Statement: Critique of Protestant Subjectivism, Defense of Tradition
• 85:24-End: Extended Q&A—debate on Apocrypha, canon formation, tradition vs. subjectivism, and liturgical practices.

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Tone & Character of the Debate

• The debate was high-energy, frequently combative, and veered into ad hominem exchanges, especially from Jay Dyer, who did not shy away from labeling the opposing position as “stupid,” “fundamentally ignorant,” or “Mormon/Muslim.”
• Despite the rhetoric, both sides articulated their epistemological principles and underlying theological presuppositions.
• The moderator, Dr. Coons, maintained order, enforced Q&A, and clarified points as needed.

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Conclusions

• Jay Dyer: Insists that Scripture alone cannot serve as the foundation for Christian faith, as the canon itself is recognized by appeal to extrabiblical, apostolic tradition preserved by the historical Church. The Protestant reliance on an internal "divine voice" is indistinguishable from subjective religious experiences of other groups, such as Mormons.
• Pastor Jonathan Shelley: Maintains that the self-authenticating nature of Scripture, God's promise of its preservation, and the witness of the Holy Spirit are sufficient. He concedes some role for tradition but subject to the supreme authority of Scripture—and ultimately, his recognition of true canon is grounded in the Spirit’s testimony.

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Final Memorable Exchange

Jay Dyer (73:54): “So you rely on tradition… you just ended the debate right there.”

Jonathan Shelley (94:14): “That's a tradition. I accepted that, that tradition.” (on knowing Matthew wrote Matthew)

Jay Dyer (81:22-84:34, closing): “All this debate was… his own subjective… assumption that the divine voice that he feels is telling him that the Protestant canon is the correct canon, when in the first, second and third century… there’s no one that has his canon.”

Jonathan Shelley (123:46): “I’ve agreed that my position’s circular. I’ve never denied that I do believe that the scripture is self authenticating…”

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This episode offered an intense exploration of Protestant and Orthodox approaches to authority, canon, tradition, and epistemology, making for a divisive but illuminating debate for anyone interested in foundational issues of Christian history, theology, and practice.

Transcript

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Dr. James Coons]

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[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Jay Dyer]

Sa.

[Dr. James Coons]

Hey everybody. Tonight we're debating tradition versus Sola Scriptura and we are starting right now with Jay's opening statement. Thanks for being with us, Jay. The floor is all yours.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, just one second. I have one thing I'm pulling up here from something I wrote for opening statement here. Can you give me just one second before we start? I just needed this one piece of data here for the opening statement. It's.

[Dr. James Coons]

You got it. No problem.

[Jay Dyer]

This is hard to find here.

[Dr. James Coons]

This is a great opportunity for me. I can fill that time easily, folks. First, if it's your first time here at Modern Day Debate, I'm your host, Dr. James Coons. We're a fully neutral platform hosting debates on science, religion and politics. Hit that subscribe button as we have many more debates coming up, including at the bottom right of your screen, debatecon8 this summer in Dallas, Texas. We are expecting it to for sure sell out. Check out the tickets link in the description box. It will include debates such as Dinesh d' Souza versus Andrew Wilson as well as God, Logic, Apologetics versus Muslim Daniel Hakikachu and many other debates. Rachel Wilson will be taking on not so Erudite on the effects of feminism as well as Andrew Wilson taking on loaner box on whether or not Trump is a fascist. You don't want to miss it. Click on that link right now. Check out the full debate card and book your travel early. Keep in mind, look at your calendar because before you plan your schedule, you want to go to this conference. Ready for you, Jay, if you are.

[Jay Dyer]

You said we're doing 10 minutes opening?

[Dr. James Coons]

Yep.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. All right. So when we come to the question of Sola Scriptura versus the question of tradition, the first argument I'm going to make is that the Bible itself, the accepted text, that between orthodox and most Protestants, we agree on those texts themselves actually point outside of the text. When it comes to the notion of sacred tradition also being the Word of God, all Protestant arguments generally rest on the assumption that it's only the written text that are the Word, and that is not the Word himself, that is a divine person that thus makes himself known through the medium of written text. And so if this argument fails, then the entire notion that we only listen to the written texts is refuted then by the written text themselves. My goal is to then open the minds of everybody here to this foundational Protestant presupposition. There is overwhelming evidence that, for example, from Genesis 1 up until the time of Moses, that the tradition was passed on orally. So there's nothing inherently flawed or bad necessarily about oral teaching, because God was able to preserve the oral teaching from the time of Adam up to Abraham and up to Moses. And that counts as several hundreds of years. And so God's providence is not in any way impugned by the fact that it's oral versus something being written. As we move on, when we look at specific examples in the Old Testament, we notice that the patriarchs, all through Genesis, kept this oral tradition and then passed it down. And then eventually, for example, the time of David, we read in 2 Chronicles 29 that he stationed the Levites in the house of the Lord with cymbals, stringed instruments, and harps, according to the commandment of David, of Gad, the king's seer, and of Nathan. For thus was the commandment of the Lord by his prophets, the Levites with instruments of David and, and the priests with their trumpets. We do not have any written record of what David commanded concerning these things. Furthermore, it is clear that David flourished some 250 years before the time of King Hezekiah. It must be argued then that this was David's opinion, if you're a Protestant, because we don't know that this was involved in any written description, as far as we can tell, because these books have actually been lost. But we know that in the book of Leviticus, if you read Leviticus 10 and 11, you'll note that native and Abihu are actually killed for making up how we would worship God. So God doesn't tolerate the idea of DIY making it up worship. Thus, there had to have been an oral tradition that David knew or passed down that was the basis for the organizing of this liturgical worship. Also note that for most Reformed people, or Protestants in general, many of them will actually make a very similar argument about how we worship God in the New Testament, for example, the Reformed. And I don't know if this person is a Calvinist or Reformed or not, but many Reformed, Baptists or Calvinists have what they believe as is a regulative principle of worship. I'm just using this as an example. Maybe he doesn't believe in this, but the regulative principle for many Protestant states that you can only do in worship what God specifically commands and lays down. However, in the New Testament documents, we do not have any specific pattern of how an entire worship service is to be conducted. Thus, when we read the Apostolic Fathers, for example, we notice that they do mention the pattern of worship. They speak of the Eucharist, they speak of episcopacy, they speak of deacons, they speak of an altar. All things missing in Protestant churches for the most part. Do we seriously believe that when the New Testament teachers and apostles preached that their preaching wasn't the word of God? Peter himself says the word of God which was preached to you, showing us that it is not restricted only to the written text. Protestants, for example, will cite Isaiah 8 and say to the law and to the testimony. But many commentators, including Protestants, will note that this testimony is also including the oral tradition. We read in the Old Testament about the book of the wars of the Lord, the Book of the Just. We read about the book of Nathan the Prophet. We read about all kinds of books and proverbs and things that were written down which were not ultimately included in the canonical texts. For example, if we look at the case of the visions of Addo the prophet against Jeroboam, we have a true prophet prophesying against the evil king Jeroboam. This is obviously from the Lord, but where is the written law about this prophetic incident? Note also that the undisputed Old Testament text itself is directing us to these books as references. On the Protestant model, we would have the infallible referencing something fallible, because most of them will say, if they admit that the oral teaching is the word of God, it was somehow fallible. But now we have the infallible written referencing the fallible. This is absurd. Again we see that they did not have sola scriptura in the Old Testament since Isaiah 8, 2021 mandates also going to the testimony. But all of these prophecies, e.g. obadiah or others, are called the Word of the Lord. Rather, the written law and the oral testimony of the prophets was considered the word of the Lord. And thus it is because the word is a person, as Jesus says to the Pharisees, you search the Scriptures because you think that is in them, that you have eternal life. When is they that bear witness of me? Protestants are actually Judaized heretics who rely on a Judaic Talmudic interpretation and understanding of texts as if they are themselves divine or God. And I'm not saying they're not inspired because I do believe in inspiration. But the Orthodox Church does not believe that the texts themselves are God. They are. The Bible is a created medium of transmitting the knowledge of God. It itself is not divine. In the New Testament we have many examples as well of this same principle. For example, we are told that John says that if it were to be collected into one book, you could never collect everything that Jesus did or said into a book because it would take all the books in the world. And this is John 20, verse 30. But excuse me, that's John 20, verse 30 says that there are many other things that he did and said. And then 21 verse 25 says that all the books in the world couldn't contain all of this. And then we have for example, statements that Paul says very clearly to the Thessalonians and second Thessalonians to keep the oral traditions. It's a standing command whether I delivered what I delivered to you, whether oral or written. So we have a standing command according to St. Paul in 1st Thessalonians 2, Paul says, for this reason we thank God without ceasing, because you received the word of God which you heard from us. So the oral teaching of the apostles is the word of God as well. This alone really undoes the majority of the out of context and low tier quote mining that most sola scriptura proponents do. That's why Paul also says to keep the oral traditions. And to Timothy, he says in second Timothy 1:13, hold fast the pattern of the sound words you heard from me. That is not against the Scriptures. And certainly when Jesus says in Matthew 23 that the scribes and Pharisees create traditions of men that supplant the Scriptures. In that same chapter, he also talks about the scribes and Pharisees sitting in the seat of Moses and thus they have the authority of Moses. There is nothing in the Old Testament about Moses, stolic succession or a seat of Moses. Jesus is referring to a valid Old Testament tradition and he's rejecting the scribes and Pharisees invalid tradition. As we move into the early church, for example, we learn that the early church did not have for many centuries a written New Testament text. I have with me here and I can pull it up if we need to multiple canons of Scripture amongst the Church Fathers for centuries and by the 4th century, the entire Church east and west, west being represented by the Council of Rome under Pope Demasis, including the deuterocanonical texts as part of the normative official canon of that time under the Latin Patriarchate, and in the east under the Apostolic Canons. The very last few canons cover the canon of Scripture according to the entire Eastern Church normative for the east in canon law by the 4th century, guess what? They include the deuterocanonical text. Now, we don't think that it was even solidified at that point. And many Protestants, including James White in his recent debate with Tren Horne, were forced to admit that the canon of the early Church was inchoate, it was unformed, and the early Church for many centuries was not operating on the principle of sola scriptura. Well, if that's the case, then sola scriptura was not true in those centuries. And if it wasn't true in those centuries, it's actually the Protestants that are adding faking gay new doctrines and teachings of men because the Church didn't have sola scriptura as its operating principle. Beyond that also, I would add that when you get into the history of the foundation of the formation of the canon, you'll note that many Protestant scholars and when I was Protestant, I read all these texts. For example, Lee MacDonald, who lists all the different canons of Scripture according to varying Church Fathers or FF Bruce. They all recognized the role that liturgy and tradition played in the formation of the canon. And so I will end it with saying that according to this person that I'm debating with, he has no argument for why we ought to accept as normative the Protestant canon.

[Dr. James Coons]

Thank you very much for that opening and we're going to kick it over to Pastor Jonathan. But first, as you can see at the bottom right of your screen, modern day debate has launched on TikTok. If you hang out on TikTok, check out our link to Pinned at the top of the chat and in the description box where you can find clips from juicy debates. With that, we're going to kick it over to Pastor Jonathan for his opening as well. The floor is all yours. Yes you can. A five minute quick and easy calorie burning workout. Give it a try. Come join our sweat sesh on TikTok who says renting can't feel like home. Make your rental feel like yours. It all starts with one scroll. Download TikTok to discover easy home decor ideas.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Thank you so much James for allowing me to Be on the show and to represent the Bible, the Word of God. And I want to start with a verse in Colossians, chapter one, verse number 18. The Bible says about Christ that He is the head of the body, the Church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he might have the preeminence. Really, this debate is around authority and understanding that Christ is the final authority. If Christ is the head of the Church, then we ought to obey Christ and appeal to Christ. Since Christ is not physically with us on earth, he has left us, obviously His Word, and we can reference His Word. If Christ is infallible, then His Word is infallible. Therefore, we appeal to Scripture as being infallible. And so if you elevate tradition, if you elevate church authority to be on par with or usurp the authority of Christ, well, now we no longer have the correct body. The correct body is Christ as the head, meaning that we have to have Scripture as our final authority. Question is, what is Scripture? Of course, the Bible teaches that God's Word is forever. O Lord, thy Word is settled in heaven. The Bible teaches that there's no such thing as a time when the Word came into existence. The Word has always existed. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. There's never been a time in which the Word did not exist. The Word of God is eternal. And so therefore, just like God is eternal, we only appeal to that which is divine, to that which is eternal, to that which is unchanging. We look at church tradition when we look at whether it's Catholic or Orthodox. These are constantly changing. And really, if we really think about this argument, we both agree that the 66 books that I hold in my King James Bible are the Word of God. Really, I just disagree with him and think that the Apocrypha is the Word of God. I deny that it is on par with Scripture. It could be used for historical understanding, but it's not the Word of God. I disagree that His Church is infallible, as we see many churches in the New Testament having serious error. Not just a little bit of error, serious error. At no point do we see any church being infallible. There's no verse teaching of this infallible Church. There's no teaching about his specific Orthodox Church. There's no table of contents to tell us which church to pick out of. The Orthodox, Coptic, Russian, Greek, Roman Catholic. So we basically just have to trust them. But at the end of the day, the churches are not the one that has the authority. It's the Scripture that has the authority. Scripture gives authority to the church is the church's responsibility to simply receive and recognize God's word. One of the tests that the Bible gives us about knowing what God's word is is that the Scripture teaches that we will hear the voice of the shepherd. Jesus Christ said, my sheep, hear my voice. And that he says that we're not going to follow a stranger. Another test the Bible gives us in the book of Deuteronomy is that when someone presumes to speak a word in the name of the Lord and it comes not to pass, to disregard that particular word, so we understand that the word of God is going to match reality. It's going to match what divine voice that we hear in the scripture. It's going to have internal consistency. The Bible teaches the Scripture cannot be broken. The Bible tells us we're supposed to compare spiritual with spiritual. So, you know, there's several different tests that we could employ to understand what truly is the word of God. At the end of the day, you know, people will scoff at the idea that the Scripture has this divine voice. But we can tell the difference between Dr. Seuss and Shakespeare. There's a gigantic difference between these two texts. And if God were to write a book or to speak, there would be a gigantic difference between God's word and man's word. Therefore it is evident when God speaks as opposed to when man speaks. The 66 books of the Bible that we have has the divine voice. It's recognized through God's people, through the Holy Ghost. My sheep hear my voice. And really when we talk about Protestant or Orthodox or Catholic, we all agree on the 66 books being scripture. Where we disagree and is that Jay believes that the apocrypha is Scripture. I don't believe that he believes that his church is infallible. I don't believe that. And I believe he has no verses to point to that. Why would I disagree with their apocrypha? Well, it has not been received by all Christians historically. It is not have the divine voice. It was not preserved in the Hebrew. It's not internally consistent. It has many different historical and factual errors. And in the apocrypha specifically, additionally, it teaches a weird salvation. It teaches that alms giving purges away from every sin. This doesn't match reality. And it doesn't produce the type of fruit that the King James Bible has produced. The Bible says by their fruits you shall know them. The Bible teaches that Wisdom is justified. Of her children we can see the evident fruit of the King James Bible of, you know, those who have adhered to Scripture alone and put that at the top of their church. What's interesting is the Protestant Reformation is not defined by one singular individual. And we don't appeal to one particular individual. We don't have a cult leader like Joseph Smith or perhaps Muhammad or other false religions. We simply all read the scripture and come to the same conclusions. And what is that conclusion? That Christ is the head of the church. Of course. Why did the Protestant Reformation even happen? The Catholic Church had corrupted itself. It was teaching new doctrines. Jay will even agree with me on this. And when you looked at scripture, the plain reading was in clear contradiction to the Catholic Church. So who's right? Well, Jesus Christ told us that the Pharisees, they had elevated their tradition over the word of God and he said, you full well reject the word of God, that you may keep your own tradition. That's what the Catholics have done and that's what the orthodox have done in the same way adding things to the text. So at the end of the day we have to ask the question, who's the final authority? Minus Scripture, Jays would be a bunch of orthodox bishops or some council or some synod. At the end of day he might try to claim that our, our belief is circular. But at the end day you have to appeal to something. I appeal to scripture as my final authority. Jay appeals to his, his Orthodox church. How did he come to that conclusion? I have no idea because the Bible doesn't teach it whatsoever and so therefore I reject it. Why do I come to the conclusion about the Bible? Well, it tells me it's the word of God. I've tested it, proved it and it's been evident to me that it is the word of God. When I compare other texts, they don't pass the exact same test.

[Dr. James Coons]

You got it. Thank you very much for that opening as well folks. If you didn't know. Modern day debate has a Discord. Join 16,000 active members in the debate arena at the modern day debate Discord pinned at the top of the chat and in the description box right now. Now with that we're going to jump into the open dialogue. Gentlemen, I'm going to give you guys ton of freedom. If it gets to be where there's too much speaking over each other, I'm going to jump in and maybe make it 90 second responses, but otherwise the floor is yours.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Sorry, go ahead.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it's interesting because all I heard was a series of personal subjective appeals and fallacies and begging the question about what was in question, which is in my opening statement, I said that you had no basis for any normative authority to bind you or anyone else to the Protestant canon. And it's also interesting that Paul himself in 1 Timothy 3:15 says, the church is the pillar and ground of truth, which is the very thing that you denied saying that. No, it's the written texts that are the pillar and ground of truth. Why does Paul say that it's the church?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Am I allowed to engage with you on that?

[Jay Dyer]

Obviously, if I'm asking you a question, yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't believe that the Scripture is the pillaring ground. It just is the truth. The normative authority is scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

So. So what's the difference between being the pillar and ground of truth and being the truth?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The pillar holds up the truth and it.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, so the church holds up the scriptures.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The. It of course points to the Scriptures, guards the scriptures. It's supposed to elevate the Scriptures. It's supposed to magnify this.

[Jay Dyer]

No, the church holds up the scriptures. So the church supports the thing that you said is the ult truth.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Absolutely. We believe. I believe that the church is a necessary function. I believe tradition is acceptable.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it the.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They should be scrutinized from the top down.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it underneath? Is it underneath the thing that you said was the foundation.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It is subject to the Scripture. Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no. Subjects to is the opposite of being the foundation and pillar of. You don't know what that means.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously you could use these analogies in two different ways.

[Jay Dyer]

No, they're opposite.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's a hierarchy. And then of course the Bible talks about a foundation. There's. These are two different analogies. You could use them.

[Jay Dyer]

No, they're not. This analogy says that the pillar and ground of truth is the Church. It's the opposite of what you just said. And you said. Well, you can say it both ways. Where does it. Why do you say that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously the Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the our foundation. He's the chief cornerstone. Other places the Bible teaches that God is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. So as a top down, what does that have to do with proving two different analogies?

[Jay Dyer]

What does that have to do with proving that the canon that you have is the accurate canon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The reason why I believe the Bible is the word of God is because of the.

[Jay Dyer]

No, that's not what I asked you. It's not what I asked you. That you have the right canon. I know you think it's the word of God. How do you know that you have the right canon? When Paul says it's the church that is the pillar and ground of truth that produces the Bible and decides what goes into it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, you're not listening to what I'm saying. If every single book in the Bible has a divine voice, then that is how I decide.

[Jay Dyer]

You're begging the question. You're begging the question because I'm asking you how you know that the 66 books is the limit of the divine voice and not our canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because no other book matches the divine voice.

[Jay Dyer]

So if I hold it so that's a fallacy of self evidence and it's begging the question. So because you think that the Protestant canon is the self evident manifest thing when that's what I'm asking you, how do you know that that's the case? You said because it attests to that self evident manifest thing that's a fallacy of self evidence.

[Dr. James Coons]

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[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So wait a minute. If Christ is infallible and his Word is infallible, how could I appeal to that which is fallible to authenticate something that's infallible? If Christ is infallible, something to be self authenticating.

[Jay Dyer]

The opening statement showed you that the written texts are not the only thing called the word of God. So you just keep begging.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You made those assertions.

[Jay Dyer]

You didn't prove that you can claim that multiple. Did you not listen to this?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You just interpreting the Bible, you're just

[Jay Dyer]

calling it a misinterpretation. Paul says the things that you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses pass those things on as sound doctrine. Peter says the word of God preached

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

him something that are those matches doctrine. But it's not.

[Jay Dyer]

Are those oral?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah. Paul could say hey, here's how you should know scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

So I'm not asking is it scripture? I'm asking you, is there oral word of God?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The word of God can be spoken out loud, obviously.

[Jay Dyer]

Does that mean they're teaching oral? That's not just written text.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's teaching and then there's the scripture. If I quote scripture, I'm quoting the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

If I call, why are you dissimulating? Why does Paul and Peter call their oral teaching the word of God?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They don't. There's no verse.

[Jay Dyer]

I just cited you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That Peter says the word of God preaching the Bible. If I get up and I know or preach what the Bible says, that doesn't make my words the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

The Book of Acts. Paul says he taught for three years, day and night. And he tells Timothy in the letter to pass on all the things that you heard from me in the presence of many witnesses. So you just refuted yourself.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, he's teaching the Scripture. He didn't say that. He didn't make an opinion.

[Jay Dyer]

So for three years he just recited verses.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, how about First Corinthians, chapter? Did the Paul differentiate in the word of God and his own subject?

[Jay Dyer]

Did he just cite verses for three years straight?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously, he reasoned out of the scriptures.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, there's also oral teaching. That's the word of God. Thank you. As Peter says, the word preached to you. How do you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What are you words in my mouth? Huh? I never said. I never said that. He reasoned.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you did. You said they're just teaching scriptures. They're interpreting the scripture. That's the point. If Paul is teaching for their interpretation

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

is not the scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

It's the oral teaching. That's the word of God as well. That's the point of what these verses says.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The word of God is also oral teaching.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm showing you in these passages.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You haven't shown a single.

[Jay Dyer]

This is the word the gospel preached to you. First Peter 1, 23 and 24.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, let's go there.

[Jay Dyer]

Paul, I just quoted it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Pull it up.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't have to go there. I just quoted it for you. Paul says, therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions that you were taught, whether by word or our written epistle, Second Thessalonians.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Let's ask this question. How do you know that your church? No. Why are you doing it?

[Jay Dyer]

Why are you doing it to quoque when I'm asking you, is there oral teaching that's the word of God or not?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's no example of that in Scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

I just gave you three. Do you want more?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, so first Peter, chapter one, verse 25. But the word of the Lord endureth forever. That's the scripture. And this is the word which by the Gospel is preached unto you. He's preaching the scripture. He's preaching the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

So he's just citing the text. Are you really?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because it's the word of the Lord endures and using things.

[Dr. James Coons]

All right, I gotta jump. All right, one sec. Just gotta. We have to go into 90 minute or 90 second responses.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, let's do that. Because this is too stupid.

[Dr. James Coons]

Okay, we'll give you a Pastor Jonathan, if you want to finish that thought, I've got the timer set for you for 90 seconds.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

First Peter, chapter one, verse 25. But the word of the Lord endureth forever. That debunks Jay's point that he earlier stated. The Word of God was created. It's always existed. And it says, and this is the word. What? What word? The Word of the Lord. Whatever was already preached, that endured forever. You can't say that Peter's words endured forever or that Peter existed before this. He's talking about the Scripture which by the gospel is preached unto you. This in no way teaches that whenever Peter or Paul get up and explain what the Bible means or they give the sense of the reading that that is scripture, then there would be no differentiation. How could you even differentiate between oral and. And the scripture if they're all just quote Scripture, if they're all the word of God, how do you know what's the Word of God at that point? And if it is the Word of God, why don't we have it written down? Why don't we have it for us? Because Jesus Christ said man does not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. If it's truly the word of God, then why don't we have it?

[Jay Dyer]

Are you a fundamentally stupid person? Are you not listening to what I'm telling you? I didn't say that the Word of God is only a creature. I said that the written texts are created and that's why Jesus says this. You search the scriptures because you think that it is in them that you have eternal life. When is they that testify to me? The Word of God is a person. He's the second person of the Trinity. I said that the written texts, which are sometimes called Word of God are a manifestation and revelation of the Word of God. They are created. The Bible is a creature. It's a created thing. It's not eternal. Sorry, I don't know if you're a Muslim, you say explain what the verse means. I'm not finished. I'm not finished. Furthermore, you keep equivocating because you think that every time it says word of God, it's only written. And I'm showing you that there's two mediums of word of God. One that is oral, when the apostles preach, which they identify as the word of God, and another which is the written, which is also the what they are interpreting. So when Paul teaches for three years, day and night in Ephesus, you admitted he's interpreting it, that is identified as a tradition and the word that Timothy must pass on, and you keep deflecting away from that.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I haven't deflected away. Again, you make a distinction the Scriptures don't make between Christ and the word of God. I gave you Jesus Christ. Jesus says one second.

[Jay Dyer]

What does it mean?

[Dr. James Coons]

I do want to jump in is in terms of Jay. If you hand it over to him with a question, then I got to give them a full chance to respond. Go ahead, you search.

[Jay Dyer]

Am I asking the question now? Go for it. You search the Scriptures because you think that it is in them that you have eternal life when it is they that bear witness of me. Thus, there is obviously a distinction between the written texts and the eternal word of God, who is the second person of the Trinity. The second person of the Trinity is not a book. It's not a text, it's a person. And they are obviously distinct from that passage.

[Dr. James Coons]

90 seconds for Jonathan. And Jonathan, just to let you know if you. If you yield it over your 90 seconds, that's fine, no problem. If you want, you can, but otherwise you got the full 90 seconds.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the Word. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us. We also have the Bible making it obviously clear that Jesus Christ is the word of God, since it's literally written on his thigh. Jay is making a distinction that the Scripture does not make.

[Jay Dyer]

I asked you a passage. Are you? Not yet.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Hold on.

[Dr. James Coons]

We're still in his. We're still in his 90 seconds.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously we can the scriptures.

[Dr. James Coons]

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[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Jay Dyer]

Okay, what is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why is it called. Why is he called the Word if he's not the Word of God?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, this is so silly. This is a equivocation fallacy. So you understand what equivocation is? Obviously you don't understand what equivocation is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Sure. Making two things equivalent that aren't truly equivalent. I understand the point that you're trying to agree.

[Jay Dyer]

In John 1, when it says that the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, is that the Bible or is that the Incarnation?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Jesus Christ is a person. I'm not going to disagree.

[Jay Dyer]

In John 1 is. In John 1. Stop, man. You don't answer any questions. In John 1 when it says the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, is that talking about the Bible? Because on your view, it has to be one or the other. Or is it talking about him taking human nature?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's the person, Jesus Christ, but He is the Word as well.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not asking that. What is it when it's the person.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What else do you want me to say?

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. So it's not talking about the Bible there, right?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the Word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

So I know you believe that. I'm not asking.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can't separate these two things. In John, the same thing.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not separating. I'm demonstrating that there's a distinction between the incarnation of the Word becoming flesh and his message in the written text. And you just admitted that that's talking about the Incarnation. So you're admitting that Word doesn't always refer to the Bible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Right. Word could have different context. I. I understand that.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, thank you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

But it can also have the context that I clearly illustrated.

[Jay Dyer]

I never denied. I never denied.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What does it mean, Jay, when it says on his thigh the Word of God? What does that mean?

[Jay Dyer]

He is this. He is The Logos, the word of God from all eternity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So you're trying to make a distinction that the Bible doesn't make.

[Jay Dyer]

You just admitted the distinction, you idiot. What are you talking about? You just admitted that word doesn't always refer to the Bible or the written text. That's all I have to demonstrate to

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

show you that I said that in a particular context.

[Jay Dyer]

You keep making. Just saying that it's a different context doesn't answer this question. The word became flesh, dwelt among us. You said that's referring to the Incarnation. So word there is not directly referencing or referring to the written text of Scripture.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Correct. Obviously, sometimes when the Bible is talking about the word of the Lord, it could be referring to just the Scripture that we have written down, and sometimes it's referring to the person. But you're trying to make a distinction. Say these are two completely different.

[Jay Dyer]

They are. Is the Bible a written, created text?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The Bible was delivered in. In part to man, but the Bible never existent. It's eternal. I believe the word of God is eternal.

[Jay Dyer]

It's always the Bible, not the second person of the Godhead. You think the Bible is eternal?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're a polytheist because you believe in the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit and a book that you're a Muslim?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, because the Bible teaches the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost. These three are one. There's. There's three that you just admitted.

[Jay Dyer]

You just admitted that John 1 makes a distinction between the eternal person of the Logos.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Sometimes the text is telling us they're talking about either the person in heaven is this book I hold in my hand.

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, is this book in my hand?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe it's a living. The Word of God is living.

[Jay Dyer]

Is this a creation?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, it's always existed.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're an idolater. You believe that this.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm not a created book. I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't idolize the book in my hand. Is it eternal? Where was this before the creation?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That physical book is not.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. Oh, the physical book made a distinction. Thank you. So you made a distinction, which is the very distinction that I'm trying to make. The Word of God from all eternity is the second person of the Trinity, the Logos. This is a created thing that came into being. It's not eternal. Are you this stupid?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The physical book that you hold in your hand. Yes, that's the Bible.

[Jay Dyer]

The Bible is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The words inside of it are.

[Jay Dyer]

The Bible is a physical book.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay. No one didn't know that the physical body of Jesus came into Existence in the incarnation. But Jesus is not created being just because he has manifested himself.

[Jay Dyer]

That I argue. You're making straw man.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I never differentiated that the word and creation. The word of God was manifested in different times.

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, shut up. I never argued that the second person of the Trinity was a creature. I said that he is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You probably misheard me. Said it was created.

[Jay Dyer]

You keep equivocating between uses of word. It doesn't always refer to the second person of the Trinity. Sometimes it's referring to a written text. I believe that. That's why my argument shows you that the apostles say the oral teaching is also the word of God. The word of God preached to you. So do you actually think that when Paul was teaching for three years straight in Ephesus, day and night, that he only cited scripture verses?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe he only appealed to scripture verses as the scripture. But he obviously gave the reading. Sure.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's not scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't. I know it's not scripture.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's the oral tradition, Corinthians, chapter 7. As his personal opinion, obviously not everything that the Apostle Paul said was Scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

Does we understand there's a difference to me, I want you to restate the argument because I don't even think you're capable of doing that. I am arguing that Paul taught for three days or three years, day and night in Ephesus and in the letters to Timothy, he commands Timothy to pass on everything that he heard from Paul. Is that only written texts?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I have nothing. I have no problem with traditions or oral teachings being passed down.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not what I'm.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

As long as they are in. In compliance with the Scripture. I'm. You're.

[Jay Dyer]

You're not asking what you think is scripture or whether you think that works or not. I'm ask, asking you, does Paul command Timothy to pass on everything that he heard Paul teach?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Sure.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Thank you. So Paul was teaching the Word of God. Correct.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Paul preached the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Orally.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He's. He spake out loud. The scriptures that I hold in my hand. Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

So you keep equivocating because you know that he's interpreting those texts. You don't think so?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't think his interpretation is the. Is divine or infallible. But at the end of the day, obviously the scriptures are. Paul can have opinion that.

[Jay Dyer]

You're begging the question because I'm not asking.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Said in First Corinthians, chapter seven, he wasn't even sure if his opinion was right. He said, I think I have the spirit of God. You Just keep it separate matter.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not talking.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because tradition can be wrong. Paul could be wrong. Paul is wrong in parts of the New Testament. Oh, Peter is wrong in parts. Ephesus is wrong in parts of the New Testament. How is your church.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're saying the New Testament churches were wrong? You just said that the New Testament has teachings that are wrong.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Paul. Yes, of course it please people lying or teaching false doctrine. What Jezebel teaches in Revelation is false. You said is it right?

[Jay Dyer]

Paul has things wrong.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Things sacrifice unto devils. Is that right?

[Jay Dyer]

You said Paul has things wrong.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Paul was wrong at one point. He was. He was trying to get people.

[Jay Dyer]

So now you don't even agree with Paul. What are you going to if Paul's teachings are scripture?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Book of Acts is just a history book. It's not telling us what's right or wrong. It's just telling us what happened. There's things that they did in the book of Acts that were wrong. What Peter did was wrong. And he was rebuked by the Apostle Paul.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no, I'm talking about teachings because Paul is commanding the church at Thessalonica.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What does this even have to do over the top of the.

[Jay Dyer]

Paul is commanding the oral tradition that he taught to the Thessalonians and to Timothy at Ephesus to pass on those teachings. Are you saying that those are wrong?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe that what we have in scripture is right. Are you saying the world teaching any oral teachings that did last. Why you're not answering the question should be scrutinized? I don't know what all he taught. How. How could I know what he taught at every single.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't matter whether you. I'm asking you, should he have taught that? Does he say that? Does he say keep my oral traditions?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes, the traditions that.

[Jay Dyer]

That he doesn't have your view. You're just begging the question. How do you even know that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You.

[Jay Dyer]

You just said you don't know what the oral traditions were. So how do you know that they're not in accord?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously everything should be tested with scripture. But you just did give traditions.

[Jay Dyer]

You just got caught to the churches. You just said you don't know what the oral traditions were. So then how can you say that they're not You. You don't know if they're in.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said I can't know everything the Apostle Paul taught.

[Jay Dyer]

No, we're not. Now you're deflecting again.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You know everything the Apostle Paul taught.

[Jay Dyer]

Why you have to do quoque. You said specifically the oral traditions. How do you know that they're not right if you don't know what they were?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's irrelevant to the conversation.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, it's not. It's about.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It is irrelevant. All I have is the scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

It's the New Testament text about world tradition. How could it be irrelevant?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because who knows what it is? What is it? What is it then?

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know what's wrong with

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

world traditions if nobody knows?

[Jay Dyer]

And if you don't know, how do you know it's wrong?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You're arguing about a hypothetical. No, you made the argument ridiculous.

[Jay Dyer]

You contradicted yourself.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Give me one example.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not going to let it go because you contradict yourself.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You said I didn't contradict anything.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you did. You said that we don't know what the oral tradition is. And so how do you know that it's wrong?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, obviously, it's like, how do you know that watermelons aren't really blue on the inside until you cut them open?

[Jay Dyer]

No, you just admitted this is a silly.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This is a silly.

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's not.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How would I know?

[Jay Dyer]

You admitted Paul.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Paul taught was right or wrong if I don't even know what it is. You don't know what it is?

[Jay Dyer]

Admitted he teaches.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No one knows what it is. We don't have every single thing. That.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not true. No, we know.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

We.

[Jay Dyer]

We have in the Orthodox Church a basis and a tradition. You have no basis at all. So I want to know how you know.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's my bas. Scripture. That's what was preserved.

[Jay Dyer]

You haven't demonstrated that because Scripture is preserved. Again, I want you to address the contradiction. You said that we don't know what Paul taught. So then how do you know that it's wrong?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why would I go in a hypothetical of something that doesn't?

[Jay Dyer]

It's your claim. It's not a hypothetical. It's what you said.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes, I still agree. I agree. I don't know what Paul taught. Do you?

[Jay Dyer]

Then how do you know it's wrong if you don't know the oral teaching that Paul gave? How do you know that this.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This. This is like a silly.

[Jay Dyer]

You're just.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You just constantly deflect and you won't even answer the question.

[Jay Dyer]

It's your.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You're answering nothing.

[Jay Dyer]

It's your claim.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Have you even answered a single question?

[Jay Dyer]

You never answered a question.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What did Paul teach? Did you claim that I never claimed that I knew what Paul taught?

[Jay Dyer]

No. Why are you deflecting? You said two contradictory things. You said, on the one hand, we don't know what the oral tradition was that you admitted Paul passed on. Then you implied that it's wrong and it can be subject to being rejected.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said that the Apostle Paul did things that are wrong in the book of Acts.

[Jay Dyer]

No, the oral tradition.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Anything that I'm saying.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not Apostle Paul.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

One at a time.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not talking about one at a time.

[Dr. James Coons]

Gentlemen are here. Hold on, just to be sure we can hear you guys.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Jay Dyer]

do you think Paul taught error?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He said things that were inaccurate. Did he teach in the book of. In. In the book of Acts?

[Jay Dyer]

So how do you know that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't think anybody's.

[Jay Dyer]

In fact, how do you know that he's not teaching error elsewhere?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The Apostle Paul admits that he taught air for the vast majority of his life until he came to Christ. Then obviously things are evolving over.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm talking about during the period of him being an apostle, not before his life, obviously. Stop deflecting.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Deflecting ice. In the book of Acts, the apostle Paul is compelled.

[Jay Dyer]

Did he teach error? I'm not asking you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did he make a mistake?

[Jay Dyer]

It's wrong.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Then he corrects himself. In the book of Galatians, we have the apostle Paul correcting the. The Apostle Peter in the book of Galatians.

[Jay Dyer]

How does. How does correcting Peter.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did Paul.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm asking about.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did Paul correct Peter?

[Jay Dyer]

I wanna. I'm not.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't have.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You won't answer a question. That's. This is the debate. Of course he will answer zero questions.

[Jay Dyer]

Of course.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can't even answer a simple question.

[Jay Dyer]

Of course he corrected.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Correct, Peter.

[Jay Dyer]

Of course he corrected Peter. What is that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So they're both apostles, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, you made the argument that he taught error.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

If they're both apostles, then how did. How did the Apostle Paul know the difference was wrong? How did the Apostle Paul know that Peter was wrong?

[Jay Dyer]

You not know the difference between moral error and theological error? They're two different things. How did he know the apostles can sin? It doesn't mean that they are fallible and taught heresies and errors. Sure.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So? So nobody ever taught any error in the New Testament.

[Jay Dyer]

The apostles are infallible. They do not teach error.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So apostles are infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

Peter made him.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Show me a verse on that. Can you show me a verse on that? Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't believe the apostles are infallible?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Then who compiled the Scriptures?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Man. Churches received the word of God. Timothy received. He's not infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

Who compiled them?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

What? Man, who? When?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Tons of Christians throughout history.

[Jay Dyer]

Who win all of them.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I mean, let's just be honest. We have multiple churches in the New Testament. You just lost epistles. You're passing them around. You're copying them.

[Jay Dyer]

You just lost the debate.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I haven't lost anything. You can't. You can never tell me how your church is,

[Jay Dyer]

that yours is infallible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Every time I ask you a question, you can't show anything. It's just. Trust me, bro. No, just trust me, though. Our churches.

[Jay Dyer]

Jesus says in the Gospel of John that he would be with the church until the end of the world and he would lead and guide them into all truth. So, yes, the apostle. You just appealed to Scripture and the

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

church, so your soul is.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not a problem.

[Dr. James Coons]

All right, gentlemen, hold on. Just to be sure.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So just to make it clear, your church is infallible because of Scripture?

[Jay Dyer]

No. So?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So you're still a scriptura.

[Jay Dyer]

You literally cannot think outside of. The fact that I appeal to the Scriptures doesn't mean I have your paradigm.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Your paradigm is that to. To prove that your church is infallible, you appeal to Scripture, which is the final authority. Because.

[Jay Dyer]

No. In my paradigm, the Scriptures are an authority. They're not the only authority. But you can't think outside of your paradigm because you don't even understand where the Scriptures came from. And that's why you can't tell me who put them together and when. Tell me.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Apostle Paul wrote letters to churches in the first century. Correct.

[Jay Dyer]

Who compiled the canon of Scripture when?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's many different people that have different lists at different times.

[Jay Dyer]

Who and. Okay, so which one's the right one?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously I believe the King James Bible

[Jay Dyer]

these 66 I don't care what you believe. How do you prove that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do you prove that you have the right crack?

[Jay Dyer]

Are you doing a two quoque fallacy? I'm asking you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously the divine voice. I already pointed this the divine voice and clearly we have internal consistency. The seven deuter chronicle books are not really consistent. Where is by all the Christians? They're not received by everybody that is saved. Additionally your church.

[Jay Dyer]

Where is the divine voice telling you that that's the right canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So do you believe there's no difference?

[Jay Dyer]

Where is the divine voice? Where is the divine voice telling you that the Protestant can is correct

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

the divine voice. This is what Jesus said. Jesus said my sheep hear my.

[Jay Dyer]

Where does Jesus hold on?

[Dr. James Coons]

I do want to hold on. Just I just want to be here

[Jay Dyer]

that we hold on.

[Dr. James Coons]

All right guys, just to be sure is that if he's in mid sentence answering you Jay, I do have to give him a chance to finish the sentence.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How does Timothy know what the scripture is without a church council? And how do the first 300 years of Christians know how to even operate? They live died before you ever had any of your ecumenical councils. How do they know what the scripture is? How did any of the Old Testament saints know what the scripture is?

[Jay Dyer]

Did you hear me argue that an ecumenical council is necessary to have scriptures? Did you hear me argue that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I just want to know. You have to hear me ask question. You just keep asking did you hear me? How do you know what the scripture is?

[Jay Dyer]

Did you hear me argue that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Then explain to me how do you know what the scripture is? Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, we have a lot of reasons and bases to know the scriptures. One is the tradition of the church first and foremost because for example with Matthew, I don't know that Matthew the apostle wrote the Gospel of Matthew without the testimony and tradition of the apostolic churches that passed on the Gospel of Matthew because Matthew doesn't tell me. And if apostolic authorship is one of the important criteria for Matthew being in the Bible, then I have to rely on church tradition to even know what the scriptures are. And that refutes you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So you said that you you got the the Bible from your church tradition. How did Timothy know that?

[Jay Dyer]

Everybody, everybody got the Bible from their church tradition.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How does Timothy know what was scripture?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the Old Testament Jews had their own testimony. They had their own groups of men that would meet together. They had a Levite Levitical priesthood that was an authority. So even the Old Testament has recognized authorities. And if you look at Dr. Bo Branson's debate that I had with him and Dale, the Protestant we go into depth about even the Old Testament operated in a synodal way. So they had authorities that are called the Levites Levitical priesthood which exegeted the law and bound people's consciences. So there is an authority structure in Israel and the attestation that prophets have. Absolutely. I believe in internal consistency coherency with the rest of the scriptures. If Obadiah starts preaching, he has to preach in continuity with the other texts. But that doesn't prove that it's sola scriptura. Because as I argue about on the testimony, the testimony is the oral tradition.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

If the Levitical priesthood at the time of Christ is rebuked for having created traditions that are in violation of the Scripture, why is that not still true today?

[Jay Dyer]

Are you asking about rabbinic teachings? Because Christ is the superior authority over those priests.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He appealed to Scripture. He said that you fool Also appeal. You fully reject the also appeal to tradition for your to keep your own tradition. So can these be wrong in the Old Testament? Infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't have a problem appealing to the Scriptures. In my paradigm there's nothing wrong with that. But Jesus also appealed to tradition as I showed you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He appealed to tradition when?

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely. Show me a verse in Matthew 23. In Matthew 23 he said the scribes and the Pharisees sit in the seat of Moses. Therefore do as they say and not as they do. Can you show me in the Old Testament where there's a seat of Moses that the Pharisees have?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The the Levitical priesthood was ordained by Moses.

[Jay Dyer]

Where is the seat of Moses that the Pharisees have Means authority?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The position obviously.

[Jay Dyer]

Where in the Old Testament does it say that the Pharisees or any future lineage would have authority from Moses to

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

sit in his political priesthood was never

[Jay Dyer]

was supposed to be sit in Moses

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

until they obviously rebelled.

[Jay Dyer]

Are the Pharisees Levitical priests?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, it's the Sadducees.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, not all of them.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, they're coming from Zadok.

[Jay Dyer]

So how did the Pharisees, how do they sit in the seat of Moses? Moses is not a political priest. Levi, his brother is the priesthood. How do they sit?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Moses obviously, after he died is no longer in charge. Where in the high priest?

[Jay Dyer]

Where in the Old. Okay, so then where then where in the Old Testament is there the idea that Moses has a seat that people occupy?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I already explained it to you that the the Levites are not Moses. They're ordained by Moses. Moses gave them that authority. And so they're in the authority that.

[Jay Dyer]

Where is the seat of Moses?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Moses obviously put the garments on Aaron. Where is the priesthood in the Old.

[Jay Dyer]

The ironic priesthood is not Moses. Where is a seat of Moses?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What tribe is Moses from?

[Jay Dyer]

The Levitical priesthood is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Wait, no, that's the question. What tribe is Moses from?

[Jay Dyer]

Doesn't matter.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I won't answer the question.

[Jay Dyer]

Is he a Levitical priest?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Is it because he's from Levi?

[Jay Dyer]

Is he a Levitical priest? Or is it his brother?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He was the one that was in charge priesthood.

[Jay Dyer]

What's it named after?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Aaron became the high priest, not Moses. Again, Moses was the authority in the Old Testament.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. So. So why would you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why Jesus appealing to the Old Testament where you didn't use the word tradition? Jesus taught tradition and you don't have any.

[Jay Dyer]

Stop lying, dude. You're such a liar. Matthew 23. Jesus is talking about the scribes and Pharisees sitting in the seat of Moses. He doesn't mention the Levitical priests.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What is. What is the seat of Moses then?

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. It's a tradition. And it's recognized by all the scholars that comment on this that it's a tradition that Jesus is referring to. That there's a succession of teachers of the law formed under the time of Ezra. So when Ezra created the synagogue system, they had the seat of Moses. They're not the Levites. Do you know how we know this? Because they had that authority in the Diaspora period.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So you're just appealing to rabbinic teachings on this to.

[Jay Dyer]

No, Jesus is appealing to the rabbinic teaching. Any competent New Testament scholar, even amongst Protestants will admit that Jesus in Matthew 23 is appealing to tradition.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Moses didn't ordain the Levitical priesthood and we're not talking about them.

[Jay Dyer]

What are you even talking about? Do you understand the argument I just made? That it's about Ezra forming the synagogue system which is where you get the scribes and the Pharisees as authoritative teachers. That is not the Levitical priesthood. How do I know this? Because in the Diaspora they had authority to teach the scribes and the Pharisees.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So why. Why is Jesus being rebuked for not keeping the tradition of the elders?

[Jay Dyer]

Did you not hear the opening statement? I said there are traditions that are false that replace the word of God.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do we know what's a false?

[Jay Dyer]

Jeremiah 20 Jeremiah even refers to the scribes and the Pharisees attempting to change the law and come up with man made traditions. So when Jesus in Matthew 23 makes this argument. He's referring back to Jeremiah.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do we know which traditions are right and wrong?

[Jay Dyer]

Because of what the New Testament and the Old Testament teach. And the oral tradition of the Church. They are all authorities.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Wait, wait. The Old New Testament, but the oral traditions of the Church? How do I know an Old Testament tradition is right or wrong without the Church?

[Jay Dyer]

You don't. Because the Church has.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No one can know the.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't say that. That's a false. That's a false non sequitur. I said the Church has an integral role in interpreting and confirming and creating the canon of Scripture. That's why you can't tell me when the canon even came about or who did it. You have no idea. You just said a bunch of people, all the Christians, at some point, the

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Scripture was a scripture, regardless of who could identify it or not. I don't believe that the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

That's begging the question to be the word of God. Okay, name somebody in the first three centuries that had your canon of scripture.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, again, you. It doesn't matter.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't matter. You just claim that it was the Scriptures no matter what. So name somebody that had your canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why does it matter who? I could point so you.

[Jay Dyer]

Because you're a sect that's made up after the Reformation and nobody had your views in the first 200 years or the first thousand years.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I. I'm using the 66 books. And you agree with that?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The 66 books.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a Fallac.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe the 60s.

[Jay Dyer]

You know what fallacies are.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The difference is you. You believe the Apocrypha and I don't. How does. How does Athanasius in 318 A.D say that the Scriptures are sufficient for preaching the truth without your canon?

[Jay Dyer]

He doesn't have your canon. Do you understand that the book of Revelation is only in the Scriptures because Athanasius convinced Rome. So do you think Athanasius was infallible?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No. Absolutely not.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so then how was it that he was the one that.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How could he make that claim, though he's begging the question. Where. How does he know what the Scriptures are?

[Jay Dyer]

How could he even make Apostolic tradition?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did he get the apostles handed down to him?

[Jay Dyer]

He got the Apostolic tradition handed down to him, which you rely on.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did you, Paul or Peter hand even

[Jay Dyer]

know that Matthew wrote Matthew? How do you know Matthew wrote Matthew?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Who. Who handed the Scripture?

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know Matthew?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Athanasius?

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know Matthew wrote Matthew?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do the guys for the first hundred 200, 300 years. Know which ones? Do they know which to handle?

[Jay Dyer]

You know that we can read those people in the first, second, third century. Have you ever read them?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So where did they give us?

[Jay Dyer]

You know we can read them.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They give us a list.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you not listen to what I'm saying? Do you know we can go read these people? I argue that there's confusion.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

We can read what people?

[Jay Dyer]

The Church fathers, the first, second, third century, who passed on these texts?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You said the apostles are the one handing them down. Where is the.

[Jay Dyer]

Where is the Apostolics?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

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[Jay Dyer]

in the Apostolic seas to the successors to the apostles, when you go read Ignatius, Clement or any of the first second century Church fathers, they talk about being the successors to the apostles. They talk about the bishop. Ignatius says the bishop represents God, the Father to the Church.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They have Clement know which things to

[Jay Dyer]

hand down from the apostolic tradition. I've answered this ten times to you because they were taught and ordained by apostles.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So the apostles had a list and they handed them a list.

[Jay Dyer]

There is no list of the canon. That's what I'm trying to tell you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So then how do they know what scripture is?

[Jay Dyer]

Because of the tradition of the Church.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You just, you're just. It's a circular argument. It's not just all the apostles just handed in the Bible because you're. No, well, because they just handed them the Bible. You just never make the same circular argument.

[Jay Dyer]

No, if you look at the history of the formation of the canon in the Apostolic sees in the Roman Empire, there are. There are multiple different competing canons because when the apostles go out, they establish successors and churches that don't have all the texts. So if Paul writes a letter to the Thessalonians, the church of Thessaloniki might have two gospels and some of Paul's epistles and some of Peter, and they might not have the Book of Revelation. This is very common knowledge. Basic history of the canon of texts.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

And then by the 4th, 5th, 6th century, the church meets to try to collate and figure out what the actual canonical texts are. Now, as I argued in my opening Statement.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, no, no. How does that even make sense if the apostles already gave you all the scripture it said figured out what it is?

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't matter whether you apostles hand them a list. What are you talking about? It doesn't even matter whether you think it makes sense because I gave you the actual history of how it went down.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's what created the standard by which the first 300 years of. Of Christianity. You don't even know Testament. They have no idea what the scripture is.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't name one church father. They even had your canon. So why should I?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You have no. I mean St. Jerome is.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I said the first three centuries. He's not the first.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Oh, so why is it 3? Why isn't it 2? Why isn't it for. I mean, you're just making up numbers now.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm not.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Just make up. Well, where does it say in the Bible the first century?

[Jay Dyer]

You made the argument. You said pre Nicea. How did anybody know? So I'm asking the same question. So pre Nicaea, who had your canon of scripture?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again? I would think any Christian knew was they handed them down when they got Matthew, when they got Mark, when they got. This was written to Ephesus. They, they were like, this is obviously the word of God. And so they copied them and they handed.

[Jay Dyer]

So name somebody that had your cannon. Should be easy.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't care what person.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't care because YouTube because nobody had the Protestant canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

We obviously had them passing down the Bible because we have it today. I have these epistles because they passed them.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you this stupid? I'm not asking you if there were all the manuscripts throughout the Roman Empire. I'm saying name a church father in the first three centuries pre Nicaea.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That cares about church fathers. Are they infallible because they preserve?

[Jay Dyer]

Are they infallible because they put it together, you idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Which church fathers?

[Jay Dyer]

You don't even. You can't name one. You don't know anything about this.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You disagree with Jerome. I mean, Jerome didn't believe that the apocrypha was legit.

[Jay Dyer]

On what basis am I supposed to go with Jerome?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

On your view, you're just cherry picking church history. No, you have your own narrative. No, no, you just want to say, oh,

[Jay Dyer]

heretic. And so you think that you just pick one church father. Will you go with the mind of the total.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Pick any church fathers. I'm saying I don't care about them. You said Jerome, you said name somebody that had a similar canon. So I named somebody. I don't appeal this.

[Jay Dyer]

Why are we supposed to choose authoritative?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't care if Rome got. Jerome got it right or wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're relying on people passing down texts that don't have your family.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Christians recognize God's word and they pass them down. What Christians of every generation.

[Jay Dyer]

What Christian?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The churches in the church at Ephesus.

[Jay Dyer]

Name some of them.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

And you know, you have Paul, you

[Jay Dyer]

have Timothy, third century. Name a Christian.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You don't have these guys. Shut up. First century.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't name a Christian in the second or third century that had your view.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

All of the Christians in the first century that were saved had my view

[Jay Dyer]

because,

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

you know, they recognize the word of God. Churches in Asia were expected to receive the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

That is a no true or take away fallacy.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Fallacy. Because if I point to somebody that has my canon, you act like he's not legit.

[Jay Dyer]

You did it in the second instance.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Is Jerome's Latin vulgate legit? Is his view on the canon legit?

[Jay Dyer]

Do you even know that Jerome submitted to the church of Roman included?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Is Jerome legit?

[Jay Dyer]

Did you hear what I said? It refutes.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Don't answer the question. You. I asked you a question, and you just ask another question, Jerome.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not. I'm answering your question. You can't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can't answer these questions because you know that you're wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

Jerome submitted to Rome and included the dura canon. That. You're an idiot. You don't even know that.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't. Jerome is Catholic. I don't. I'm not a Catholic. You're not a Catholic.

[Jay Dyer]

You asked me about Jerome's canon and I proved you wrong. That he didn't even have your canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe all the Christians could tell what the scripture was.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't tell me that any of

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

the scripture was in the second century, can you? They know what the scripture was in the second.

[Jay Dyer]

Tell me what a no true Scotsman fallacy is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously, it's just when you cherry pick people that have a different opinion than you and claim that that's not legit, you say, oh, well, they. It's like your 754 AD iconoclasm. That was a robber council. That wasn't really.

[Jay Dyer]

What is a no true scotch.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No. In 787 AD that was. Are you gonna counsel?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't even.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Y' all just cherry pick through history.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't even think you know what it is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I just explained it to you. Scotsman. All the Scotsmen do this and Then you show an example of someone not doing it and they say, oh, he's not really a Scotsman. That's exactly how you know it. And that's what you're doing.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly what you did when you said that only the true Christians are the ones that believe my canon. And you can't give an example.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Only the true Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you did.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

All Orthodox, all Protestant, all Catholic. Name these 66 books as the Scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a fallacy. It doesn't matter that we all accept it if we have different arguments or bases for it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I never said that the people that aren't saved couldn't pick out the right canon. I never said that.

[Jay Dyer]

You said that the true Christians believed in the 66 canon scripture.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes, you do believe that.

[Jay Dyer]

So name one of those people in the first, second and third century.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I did. Paul, Timothy, after the apostles. Because it's begging. All of these people were after the apostles.

[Jay Dyer]

That's begging the question.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm not going to point to some church father and claim you don't have one. He is.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you not have one?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because I don't care. They're all my Catholic. Why? It'll be like saying, name a popular Catholic today that believes Baptist doctrines. Why would I care about that?

[Jay Dyer]

Do you have an example of one or not?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I appointed to St. Jerome.

[Jay Dyer]

He's not in the second or third.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You don't have that many examples of anybody giving. Actually in the first, second and third century. There's not this like huge group of all these different people.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, there's no.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's a small. There's small numbers here.

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's not all of these red books up there. That's the pre.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This is just snowing you with information.

[Jay Dyer]

Look at all these. Dude, shut up.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Books.

[Jay Dyer]

It's not books. This is all of the pre. Nicene Church Fathers. It's about.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Just trust me, bro.

[Jay Dyer]

It's not Just trust me, bro. It's a famous set of Church fathers. The first 10 volumes. What are you talking about? Just trust me, bro. You don't even know what this is. You think that there's not a lot of documentation.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How many. How many church fathers have a canon list that we can look to in the 2nd and 3rd century? Give me a number that.

[Jay Dyer]

That argues for me, you idiot. That's my. That helps my case, you dummy.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, how do they know what the scriptures were to pass down so that they could end up canonizing it?

[Jay Dyer]

They know by ecumenical councils getting together and.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, no, no. But before the ecumenical council

[Jay Dyer]

the fact that there are different councils debating and discussing this for centuries proves that they were not operating on sola scriptura and

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

refute you in the second century. How did someone know it was the Bible?

[Jay Dyer]

They were not going on only the Bible. They couldn't read. They go to hear the liturgy.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They couldn't read.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. Most people in the Roman Empire couldn't read. Idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So how do they know? It's things that pass down.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you think that most people in the Roman Empire were literate?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I have no idea what the literacy rates in Rome were.

[Jay Dyer]

You're an idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I just think it's. I think it's ridiculous to claim that most people in these churches can't read.

[Jay Dyer]

This is a well known fact. It's well known, dude.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's well majority of the population.

[Jay Dyer]

This is an idiot. This is a fundamentally.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can give me a source on it. You make these assertions. You make these crazy. It's not everybody can't read in the second century.

[Jay Dyer]

It's not a crazy assertion. It's common knowledge. I shouldn't have to.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Common knowledge.

[Jay Dyer]

It is. Yeah. That the Roman. Most people in the Roman Empire were illiterate. The literate class were the aristocrats. Idiot. Now again, tell me who in the second and third century before Nicaea has your Protestant canon? Just name one.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Every Christian could recognize God's word.

[Jay Dyer]

That is a notion.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Second century and in the third century.

[Jay Dyer]

That's how you define.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They could know what the Scriptures were to pass.

[Jay Dyer]

That's how you define.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How did they know what to copy? Because they knew it was already God's word.

[Jay Dyer]

Name it. Name a theologian or church. Father.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This is just as a red. You're just. You're basically just trying. You're just trying to create a straw man argument that doesn't even need to be.

[Jay Dyer]

You made the claim.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You said I don't need a church. Father. How did Timothy know what's passed down? How did any of these churches know what to pass down? How is the church at Ephesus supposed to know that the Book of Revelation is the word of God without a counsel

[Jay Dyer]

Apostolic tradition.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How does someone in the Old Testament know what it was Scripture?

[Jay Dyer]

I already answered that question earlier when I talked about Levitical.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You didn't give an answer. You literally appointed.

[Jay Dyer]

Talked about the Old Testament structure of how they understood and went to have the law executed and how the Levites would make judg and how prophets had to teach.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

And you reject the Hebrew canon. You.

[Jay Dyer]

You what basis? On what use the Hebrew canon? It's not the Hebrew because you appealed to the Apocrypha. It's the rabbinic canon. It's not the Hebrew canon. You're a heretic.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm a heretic for rejecting the Apocrypha. So do you believe that follow the

[Jay Dyer]

Rabbinic Christ rejecting Jesus?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Do you believe that Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria and lived in Nineveh? I drive my bus in a busy city. That's why road safety is so important to me. I know that I must slow down and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safely. Learn how at www.sharetherodesafely.gov.

[Jay Dyer]

that's a general title. Jews would oftentimes call their kings Amalek, Pharaoh all the way into the Book of Revelation. They call their enemies by Pharaoh or Amalek or anything like that. So you're just fundamentally an ignorant person. And I answered your question about the Old I'm ignorant. I answered you multiple times questioning if

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Nebuchadnezzar was the king of Assyria.

[Jay Dyer]

Did you not hear the answer, which

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

is a historically inaccurate statement?

[Jay Dyer]

How did I answer your question? Restate what I said.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You didn't answer it.

[Jay Dyer]

I gave you an answer.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You just said, oh, sometimes they just use these other titles for people that

[Jay Dyer]

you didn't really I didn't say sometimes. I gave you examples. In the Book of Revelation they talk city being Sodom and Gomorrah. Was it Sodom and spiritual picture? Jews to this day still call their enemies Amalek. It's a Jewish practice. You say we reject the Hebrew canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So you're saying Nebuchadnezzar was king of Israel?

[Jay Dyer]

Not it's the rabbinic canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's not spiritually lived in Nineveh.

[Jay Dyer]

This is just a stupid person. They the New Testament says even in the Book of Revelation that the enemies of God's people are Sodom, Gomorrah, Egypt, Babylon. Those empires are dead. And I'm telling you, even to this day, when Netanyahu calls people Amalek, he's reflecting that tradition of always calling their enemies by the name of some king or emperor. It's a well known thing in the academic literature. So again, you're just expressing your own ignorance. But I already answered your question about the Old Testament, to the law and to the Testimony. The law is the Torah. The testimony is the interpretation of the Torah. Why is Matthew supposed to be in the gospel?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It has the divine voice. It's internal.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that? How do you know that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

In the same way that I can tell the difference between, you know, my wife's voice and another woman's. Obviously my sheep hear my voice.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a purely subjective argument.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do you subjective. Can you tell the difference between 80s music and a hymn?

[Jay Dyer]

What's the subjective between 80s music and what is the subject? What is the objective public argument to know the difference?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's internally consistent. It's historically received by Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

Begging the question. Internally consistent with what? That's what. That's what.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You're taking all these arguments, you won't apply them to your church. I'm actually giving you legitimate.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a two quote. Why are we supposed to accept that Matthew is included in the text? You said because it has a divine voice. That's the thing in question. How do we know that as a divine voice? That's what's in question?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do you know it's a. It's.

[Jay Dyer]

Why are you doing it? Why are you doing it too quoque?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I answered your question. You didn't.

[Dr. James Coons]

No, you didn't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What was your answer then? I asked you. Well, you believe it and you won't answer. I said it has the divine voice. It's internally consistent with the rest of scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

It's been received by Christians divine voice when what's in question?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because I can tell the difference between God, you are the man's word, so you so ultimately everybody that.

[Jay Dyer]

So you are the authority, ultimately. So you ultimately are the authorities.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do you know your church is right?

[Jay Dyer]

So it's a purely subjective argument. I'm talking about the tradition that Matthew wrote. Matthew. Do you think that matters? Apostolic authorship?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

If it didn't say Matthew at the top, it wouldn't change anything for me. Dude, why does it matter?

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How does it make any difference in your life that you know that that's Matthew and not just.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you listening? Does apostolic authorship matter?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously we believe the apostles were ordained by God and they were Matthew matter. Dude, the book of Hebrews has no clear apostolic identified.

[Jay Dyer]

And in the case of the gospels of Matthew, does it matter?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I do think that the apostles are the ones that saw the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ. That's what makes them apostle. And so I'm talking about the gospel by eyewitnesses. That's what Luke says.

[Jay Dyer]

Stop deflecting in the. The case of the Gospel of Matthew, does apostolic authorship matter?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's a point of evidence, yes.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. How do you know that Matthew the apostle, wrote it?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously, Christians receive this gospel from someone that told them that.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that? How do you know?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because it was passed down.

[Jay Dyer]

Through who?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Through tradition.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, thank you. You just ended the debate right there.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So I never said the very thing

[Jay Dyer]

that you rely on?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Never said the traditions wrong?

[Jay Dyer]

Everything that you rely on. Tradition we have and what I articulated, argued for.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay. I've never said that traditions are wrong. Obviously, I didn't write this King James Bible that I hold in my hand to me. How do I know that my traditions are right? Because they're internally consistent with the Scripture. How do you know

[Jay Dyer]

the Scriptures are the thing in question. To appeal to the Scriptures is begging

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

the question, is the Scripture divine?

[Jay Dyer]

Of course, that has nothing to do with my paradigm.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

In your opening statement, you said it's not divine.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't make the argument.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You say the Scripture is infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

You're equivocating again. I said there's a difference.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

But I'll show you the clip where you're equivocating.

[Jay Dyer]

I said there's a difference between the written text as Word and the second person of the Godhead is Word. That's all I said. So you keep.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Scriptures are divine.

[Jay Dyer]

They're divinely inspired.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Do you believe they're infallible?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, so if anything is contradictory to them, is. Is it also infallible?

[Jay Dyer]

Obviously, if it contradicts it, no, it's not infallible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay. So if your tradition of your church is in contrast to something in this book, would it be foul? Would it be right?

[Jay Dyer]

It would be wrong. But it's also impossible when the Scripture

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

says a bishop must be the husband of one wife. And your church teaches that bishops are supposed to be unmarried. How am I supposed to know that? You're right.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. Well, episcopacy can refer to the twofold office. It can be a presbyter or it can be a bishop. And there is an episcopacy. Because in Acts 1, we read about episcopacy that Judas had his office or episcopacy replaced. And when we look at the. The Council of Nicaea, it talks about the episcopacy and bishops. So do you. Where's your episcopacy?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, in Acts chapter one, the appeal to. They replaced an apostle. They did not replace what's.

[Jay Dyer]

What's the Greek, what's the Greek word

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

a bishop is different here.

[Jay Dyer]

What is the apostle?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Paul was.

[Jay Dyer]

What's the Greek word?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

And he was not a bishop in Acts 1. What's the Greek word like for presbytery?

[Jay Dyer]

No, it doesn't matter.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why does it matter?

[Jay Dyer]

Because the word is episcopals in Greek.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They're obviously appointing someone in the position of an apostle because he had to be with them from the very.

[Jay Dyer]

Why is there even a successor to an apostle?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They. They thought it was good to replace him, but it doesn't even really matter because that guy.

[Jay Dyer]

There's apostolics. So they had apostolic succession.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Who's they?

[Jay Dyer]

In Acts 1, they are the apostles.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What do you mean there's no succession? They are the apostles. Peter is the apostle.

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, are you this stupid? In Acts 1, they replace Judas in his episcopacy. Why? Is there a seat replacement? A successor?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They're replacing him. But again, does that matter If. If he is.

[Jay Dyer]

Is there a successor to the apostle?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, is the apostle, or is he just an additional apostle in Acts 1?

[Jay Dyer]

Why are you deflecting the poll? In Acts 1, is there a success?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I do not believe there's only 12 apostles. To be a perfect succession of 12 apostles. No apostles alive today.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, is there a Successor in Acts 1 to Judas in his office of episcopacy or not?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

In his office of being an apostle Episcopal.

[Jay Dyer]

Is there a successor to the episcopals in Acts 1?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

In the 12 they made.

[Jay Dyer]

Why can't you just answer? Why are you so dishonest?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't. I don't use the word episcopacy here.

[Jay Dyer]

It's in the Greek.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

In the English.

[Jay Dyer]

It's the Greek word, you idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Does it. What does this person.

[Jay Dyer]

Too stupid. This is so stupid.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So again, do we have.

[Jay Dyer]

He doesn't care about the Greek word Episcopal.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I didn't say I didn't care about the Greek.

[Jay Dyer]

You just did. You said I don't. You said, I don't care what the Greek is. I read the English. You're an idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I. I don't care to go back to the Greek, to try for our audience to explain to them what the English word is here.

[Jay Dyer]

Is there a successor to the episcopos in Acts 1, to the apostle?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They obviously appointed Matthias in the position of Judas. No one agrees with that.

[Jay Dyer]

To what? Is there a successor?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

To be one of the 12?

[Jay Dyer]

Is there a s. So you won't say successor because you know that means absolute succession.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How. How can he succeed Judas? Judas isn't even saved. Judas is like a Saved, devil, heretic.

[Jay Dyer]

What does that have to do.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He's just taking his place. It says give his office to another in the Old Testament.

[Jay Dyer]

James, his office is episcopacy, you idiot. That's a successor to the apostles.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay? He gave his office to him.

[Jay Dyer]

All right.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why does that matter?

[Jay Dyer]

James, can we move on?

[Dr. James Coons]

This is close to when we normally go into the Q A, as the open dialogue is usually about an hour. If you guys have any final threads you'd like to draw together from the debate, this would be the time. Otherwise, we will move into the Q and A. Any last thoughts?

[Jay Dyer]

What about. How about a brief closing statements, him and me?

[Dr. James Coons]

Yeah, let's do it. How about three minutes each? You can go ahead, Master Jonathan, if you'd like to go first.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Otherwise, we didn't really make much ground on this particular discussion. And Jay doesn't want to hold his logic to his own church, obviously. He just wants to constantly try to claim that we can't know what the scripture is without his quote church. But they never explains where his actual church comes from. There's nothing in the Bible that teaches is infallible. Historically speaking. The Orthodox Church has many different errors, many different problems, and they've elevated their tradition above scripture and above Christ. The authority in the Orthodox Church is not Christ. It is their opinion. They simply elevate icons. They. They elevate their understanding of bishops. And of course, they believe in theosis. Their apocrypha teaches that alms giving purges away every sin. Whereas the Bible teaches that it's through faith in Jesus Christ's blood that gives us the forgiveness of sins. And it's only through the Gospel that we can be saved. The Bible teaches that once you're saved, the Holy Spirit dwells inside of you. And Jesus Christ said, my sheep, hear my voice, and they will not follow a stranger. That's why we don't follow the Apocrypha, because it's a strange voice. It has historical inaccuracies, it teaches false doctrine. And of course, their church also teaches false doctrine. They have ecumenical councils where they say that icons are blasphemous and idolatrous. And 754 AD. And then magically in 787 AD, they claim, no, that was a robber council. Didn't really count. Trust me, bro. Which is really the Orthodox position in a nutshell. Trust me, bro. He creates a position in which the first Christians at the church at Ephesus could not understand what the scripture is. We have so many examples of churches in the New Testament having so many problems, constantly needing to be corrected by scripture. Jay's church won't be corrected by scripture, so it's gone off the rails and there's no hope unless they actually appeal back to scripture to allow themselves to be corrected. It's interesting that in this particular debate Jay wouldn't answer my questions. He just simply tries to use philosophy and trying to claim fallacies in order to avoid actually defending his position. He just simply wants to claim that my position is wrong, therefore he must be right. He doesn't actually defend his position whatsoever. His church is claimed to be infallible. He has no verse to teach such a thing. And he's just like the Pharisees today where they've rejected the word of God so that they can keep their tradition.

[Dr. James Coons]

We'll kick it over to Jay for his three minute closing as well. And then we're jumping into your questions folks, from the Q A.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, this person was the dumbest person I've ever debated. There's a new person beyond T Dump or the Kurgan or anyone else. I've never debated anyone this stubborn and stupid and foolish and ignorant. I answered every one of his objections explicitly with absolute nuance. He actually thinks that saying philosophy and fallacies don't matter in a debate, which again shows that he's a fundamentally stupid person. And this is what you get with independent fundamentalist Bible churches and people that promote cult leaders like Stephen Anderson, absolute lunatics and psychotics is you get this kind of ignorance that is so hard pressed and so close minded to actually listen to the arguments that are being made to say that it doesn't matter about the church fathers in the first, second or third century when it comes to the canon, I don't care. But there were true Christians there that had my Protestant canon, even though I don't know of any and I can't name any. They were just there, trust me bro. So he's actually the one doing the trust me bro when I answer specifically with absolute nuance. Every single one of his questions we saw in the first half of the debate. I give you multiple examples of the Word of God not being just written text. And it took multiple times of him actually admitting that and then backtracking and falling back on his fallacy of equivalence. So all this debate was was his own personal subjective argumentation and assumption that the divine voice that he feels is telling him that the Protestant canon is the correct canon when in the first, second and third century when he liked to appeal to pre Nicaea, there's no one that has his canon. And again, when Trent Horn debated James White, Trent got James White to admit that nobody in the first several centuries is operating on sola scriptura. That means that in those centuries sola scriptura wasn't true because most churches didn't have the full complete canon. Thus it was impossible for them to actually operate on the principle of sola scriptura. Guess what? We have thousands of pages of the writings of the Church Fathers which he laughed at and mocked not knowing anything about in his own stupid ignorance. When in reality, when we go read them, they give us an absolutely amazing picture of the worship, of the liturgy, of the imagery of the Eucharist, all going on in the earliest centuries of the Church, second and third century. So just like all the other Judaized Protestant heretics, he thinks that the Rabbinic canon, the post apostolic Christ rejecting Jews, is the right canon. He doesn't even know that Irenaeus and Justin Martyr talked about the Rabbinic Jews who formed the proto Masoretic text, which is the Rabbinic tradition, altered and changed their text against the Septuagint tradition, which was so replete with references to Christ. He also doesn't know that every Protestant scholar who has any significant academic credentials or degree, whether it's FF Bruce or whether it's Lee McDonald or anybody, they will admit that the Deuterocanon includes the Septuagint, includes the Deuterocanonical texts, and the New Testament cites them dozens of times throughout its passages. I argued very clearly that oral tradition is in the Old Testament and the New Testament. I gave at least a dozen examples. He didn't even address any of those. He acted like I made no scriptural arguments and never went to Scripture, which is an absolute lie. This man is an absolute joke.

[Dr. James Coons]

We are going to go to the Q and A. Want to remind folks, please don't copy and paste in the live chat. Also, as you can see at the bottom right of your screen, DEBATECON 8 is happening this summer and one of our sponsors is Main First Project. In addition to ROAR, if you would like to become a sponsor for DEBATECON 8, email me at moderndaydebategmail.com otherwise you can click on the Tickets link for DEBATECON 8. It also shows sponsorship sponsorship options for your organization to help get the word out. We're going to jump into these questions and we're going to move fast. So thank you very much for your questions folks. Are you guys okay with rebuttals or would you prefer to minimize rebuttals I would suggest, because we do have a ton of questions, that we want to get through all these before you guys have to leave. If we could minimize rebuttals, that would be the best way to go.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's fine.

[Dr. James Coons]

You got it. This one from do appreciate your question. Holy smokes. We do have a lot. John Ruck says Jesus is God. Thanks, Jay, for winning the debate. Jerome. Alain says, so the Baptists historically only go back by a guy named John smith in the 1600s. So was there church doctrines before that? I don't know what that means. I don't know.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah, again, they're just. They're just saying that my church history doesn't go all the way back. You know, again, I. I do. I'm not gonna deny that John Smith is accredited as being the first quote Baptist. You know, this is the label that was given to him. I'm not going to deny that The Protestant Reformation isn't trying to do things new and in opposition to the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church got off the rails, and the Protestant Reformation was an attempt to go back to the scripture and compare their traditions with the Scripture. And that's why you have a plethora of different things that happen. It's not like just Baptists came out or just one group. Obviously there was multiple different groups that come out. My view is that there was a corruption in the Catholic Church. It's corrected by Scripture.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from. I hate to do that, but just because we have so many. So we're going to go rapid speed. Layman Ross says, Jay, my raw Rockhor brother, be gentle. This one from Jerome Elaine says the KJV 1611 Bible has the deutero canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's true. It's. It's in the middle. It has apocrypha on every single page. It doesn't actually give you, like, a description like all the rest of the text. It's not mixed in the. So it was clearly set aside, and so it definitely was included for historical purposes. But are you, as canon.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you a monarchist?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Why am I supposed to care what King James and his scholars did?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You don't have to if you don't want to. I just like the product.

[Jay Dyer]

Why in your view, ought we accept your King James Version?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I mean, the King James Bible is 85% the work of William Tyndale, and the King James Bible is a revision of the Bishop's Bible. So it's not just King James.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Why are we supposed to accept that? Why they.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, we understand that the Bible should be in vernacular languages or vulgar languages not.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, there was a. There was a Catholic translation before that into English. So why are we supposed to accept

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

that they believed that the Latin had been correct?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care what they believe. They're asking you what's the argument that that's binding on Christians.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The original Hebrew doesn't match.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from Thomas Hayward says same level of argument as Pastor P. Lol. Who's Pastor P. Slades?

[Jay Dyer]

Somebody I debated some while back.

[Dr. James Coons]

66 book King James Bible. Hey man, this one from Mr. Jack says quote, Christ is not here physically, unquote, literally the church dude. The bride of one flesh with the Lord. The Bible is not the Logos and only has authority by being a part of his church's holy tradition. Any thoughts, Jonathan?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I mean, I think that we both believe that Jesus Christ is the Word, so I don't think we agree with that comment.

[Dr. James Coons]

Tony the Baptist says Pastor Shelley is pointing to scripture as his source of authority. Where the orthodox is pointing to his church fathers as his source of authority. And yet accusing Pastor Shelley of circular reasoning. Oh, the irony.

[Jay Dyer]

No. I asked him for a basis for why the Protestant canon ought to be the case and he admitted throughout the debate that he also relies on tradition for apostles apostolic authorship. And I asked the question about normative authority, why we ought to accept that in some binding sense. And he has no answer for any of that.

[Dr. James Coons]

You got it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Authority is the scripture.

[Dr. James Coons]

Putting up a poll in just a second, so hang tight folks. This one coming in from Tony the Baptist says. Oh no, we got that. Amelien Ascentic says, question Pastor, can you read second Timothy 4, 12, 13 parentheses. What books? Paul he's talking about and could this be oral tradition he was writing?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, you're talking about Preach the Word. I'm just turning there, but he said two through four. Preach the word. Be instant, in season, out of season.

[Dr. James Coons]

Reprove, rebuke, exhort, with all Tim 4, 12, 13.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Oh 12. I'm sorry, Antiochus. Have I sent to Ephesus the cloak that I left at Troas with Carpus? I. I don't understand the. The point of that. I think they meant two through four, but I could be wrong.

[Dr. James Coons]

Maybe. But it does say second Timothy 4:12 through 13. Mr. Jack says the Bible is eternal in all caps, bro.

[Jay Dyer]

Really?

[Dr. James Coons]

Moses, eternal Mary, literally Muslim level, eternal creation, stupidity. Only God is eternal.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Forever. Thy word is settled in heaven. O Lord.

[Jay Dyer]

Lord. Yeah. Is that the Bible?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

So the Bible is eternal in heaven. This is a Muslim. He's a polytheist. Where are the words of God in heaven?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They. They exist. The second person of. Of. Of Christ.

[Jay Dyer]

They exist in him. So there's multiple eternals.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Christ is the Word. So he's always existed.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, you said words.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't believe you can separate the two.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so where's the propositions in the book of Hebrews? In eternity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You don't even. Heaven is something that was where you just. Heaven is something that's created. So.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I said, I said in eternity. What's heaven I got to do with them? Somebody. Eternity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You literally said where are the word of God in. In heaven.

[Jay Dyer]

You said that in eternity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes, it's always existed. Christ is the Word and it's always.

[Jay Dyer]

So the book of Hebrews is from all eternity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Always existed where it's in the second person.

[Jay Dyer]

So the book of Hebrews is not something that was written.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Not a physical book.

[Jay Dyer]

But the words,

[Dr. James Coons]

this one.

[Jay Dyer]

So the words of Paul are in. In Christ in all eternity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The Word existed before anything was ever created.

[Jay Dyer]

The words of Paul, when he. When he starts the book.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Christ knows the end from the beginning.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't ask if he knew it. You said the words themselves. Yes, the words themselves. Okay. Thank you. This is. This is so stupid.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from Rachel Wilson says. Does Pastor Jonathan think Christ existed before the incarnation? Does he know where Christ was in the Old Testament?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It. Yes. Christ existed before the incarnation. He has pre. Pre incarnate appearances. The Bible says in the beginning was the Word. He's with God. It's very clear. He's. He has no origin.

[Jay Dyer]

Is that the Bible in. Is that the Bible in Genesis 1?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't believe you can separate Christ from the Word.

[Jay Dyer]

You already admitted in, in John 1 that the word became flesh. That's not talking about the Bible. Did the Bible become flesh?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said it wasn't like the, the scriptures, like the physical paper.

[Jay Dyer]

That's the Bible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Christ is the word of God. Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

Christ is not the book. You think Jesus is a book?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, he's not a physical book.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He's a person.

[Jay Dyer]

Then the Bible is not eternal.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The physical book is something that revealed to us. It's the manifestation. Just like his physical body isn't eternal.

[Dr. James Coons]

The question was for Jonathan. Jonathan, give you the last word on this because the question was for you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Jesus Christ was incarnated. His physical body came into existence in Mary's womb when he was conceived. The Bible was obviously a manifestation of God's word that already existed from eternity past.

[Jay Dyer]

Where in the eternity?

[Dr. James Coons]

I Hate to do it, but I have to give somebody the last one. Master by grace says question for Jay. Did you say in your opening quote the scriptures are not divine, I. E. In their nature quote, they are not the voice of God.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I said they're not the divine person of the Son. I said that they are inspired, they are inerrant, they are theo neustos. They're God breathed. They are not the second person of the Godhead. So this person is fundamentally stupid and can't see the difference between the second person and the book that describes him.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There was a quote that Jay said. He said the Bible is a created medium. It is not divine. That was a direct quote in his opening statement.

[Jay Dyer]

It not divine in itself in the sense of being uncreated. You believe the Bible's uncreated. You're a Muslim polytheist.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from do appreciate it. JB Peltier says Prats act like Jesus ascended and threw the book down on his way up.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

again. All I get is. All I get is these ad hominem attacks. You're a Muslim. You believe these bizarre.

[Jay Dyer]

Believe the Muslims ever claim you don't

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

have no real arguments.

[Jay Dyer]

You just have to say you believe the Bible is eternal. That's stupid, bro.

[Dr. James Coons]

A million ascentic says says pastor. How do you know that Matthew wrote Matthew or Mark wrote Mark or Luke wrote Luke?

[Jay Dyer]

He doesn't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's a tradition. I accepted that. That tradition.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, tradition. Okay. Exactly.

[Dr. James Coons]

You got it. Oh, wow. We just have this new thing in live chat where you can send gifts. We just enabled it. Thank you for the gift. Christian Roach. This is new. I've never. It's got the graphic and everything. Beautiful. This one from Mason Marcus. Typical W for the king of Wigsantium. What the. This one from Kevin Blackwell says for Pastor John. Jesus says he is one with the church. Where does he say he is one with the Bible? Where does the Bible say Jesus left the Bible?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't understand the left the Bible comment, but again I. I'm just going to be repeating myself because. Because the Bible teaches that that Jesus Christ is the word made flesh. He dwelt among us. We beheld his glory. The Bible says in first John chapter number one, it says that which was from the beginning which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon and our hands have handled of the word of life. The Bible says that Jesus Christ on written on his thigh when he returns, has the name written on his thigh. The word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

You're equivocating again, because this is a created book. Book. And obviously when we say the Bible, that means a canon or rule or a list of books. Obviously it's talking about a book. You believe that there's an eternal Quran like the Muslims, which is your kgv, which is idiotic and foolish. You already admitted multiple. Multiple times in debate there's a distinction between the word made flesh and the book, the Bible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said sometimes the verse is describing a difference, but I'm not saying there is a difference.

[Jay Dyer]

So you actually believe that this is Jesus incarnation.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It. No, not the physical copy.

[Jay Dyer]

And you admit that it's a difference, you idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's the words inside this one from.

[Dr. James Coons]

Do appreciate your question. JB Peltier strikes again. Says human language, paper and bindings are creatures. The world is a person who mystically informs human people to write text and interpret it. Big league. Drew says. All I'm hearing here is a bunch of rigamaro that came from Captain Tzariac, who the other night referred to Jay as J.D. dyer. Jerome, Elaine says, see how the Protestants argue, just like the Muslims.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

The belief that there's an eternal book, which is what he said multiple times, is literally rabbinic. And because it's also rabbinic, it's thus a Talmudic and Islamic position.

[Dr. James Coons]

Don't you take that, Jonathan.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The word of God is. Is eternal. Is this is what the scripture says.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you incapable of.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He wants to twist the definitions of these words.

[Jay Dyer]

It means you search the scriptures because you think that is in them, that you have eternal life. When it's they that bear witness of me. That's the distinction between the reason.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's ironic you keep quoting that verse

[Jay Dyer]

because it refutes your idiocy. And you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, because you don't have salvation. Because you believe in theosis.

[Jay Dyer]

There we go. So that's. That's all he has. He's so get.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He's great.

[Jay Dyer]

He's about to rage, quit. I've never been close to what is my. I don't have salvation. So what does that have to do with that passage?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's what Jesus Christ is telling to the Pharisees. He said you should search.

[Jay Dyer]

Does the passage make a decision? Actually, does it make a distinction?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Just like you don't. You don't make a distinction.

[Jay Dyer]

Does it make a distinction between the Scriptures and the Word?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The Scripture teaches that the word of God is Christ. The word of life. John, chapter one says the word of life, life.

[Jay Dyer]

Does that passage make a distinction between the Scriptures and the person of the Word?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Jesus Christ is appealing to literal parchment that has the words written down on them.

[Jay Dyer]

That's what the Bible is, you idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So obviously he's not saying look at my body and, and figure it out. He's saying look at the parchment. But the thing is he's the word from the Scripture. He transcends that.

[Jay Dyer]

He is from the scriptures. No, you, it's. You can't understand that. You can't. You. I have a Muslim polytheistic position. Question.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How did they handle the word of life in John 1? In first John 1, how did they.

[Jay Dyer]

Because he's in. He's incarnate. They touched his body. That's the word of life, flesh.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So he's the word of life. Amen. Jesus Christ.

[Jay Dyer]

This is the incarnate word of God. You're an idolater.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, I did. They weren't touching a person. That is the Word. The word of life was manifested.

[Jay Dyer]

The word was manifested in flesh, not in a book.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Amen. He was a person.

[Jay Dyer]

That's my argument.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

But again, you just don't believe the

[Jay Dyer]

word of God in the person in a book. You're a Jew. You are a. You're a Quran Muslim.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So the Jews believe that Jesus Christ was the word.

[Jay Dyer]

You have. The Jewish Jews believe that Jesus Christ is the worst of the.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You're just making stuff up. You just make these wild accusations.

[Jay Dyer]

You have the Jewish position of the

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

how am I a Jew for believing Jesus Christ of the word of God texts? You just made a lie and just a ridiculous railing accusation that you can't

[Jay Dyer]

prove of the text and the Muslim view of the text.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Show me a Jew. Jesus Christ is the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

You are a Muslim in your show

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

me a Muslim that believes Jesus Christ is the word of God.

[Dr. James Coons]

We must move the next one. This one from Jerome. Elaine says, see how we got that? No name X says Pastor Jonathan clearly didn't take the comments under his quote orthodoxy exposed video unquote seriously. This one from Dissent and Resist. Don't worry. You just like just roll your eyes at it. You don't have to give it a response. That's what I used to do. But Dissent and Resist says so by Protestant logic, if Jesus is the Bible, they're practically Muslims because is it not true that Muslims believe that the Quran is uncreated while at the same time Allah is uncreated? This is pure and utter nonsense sense.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I do want to comment because here's the thing. The Muslims do not believe that Jesus Christ is God. They don't believe that Jesus Christ

[Dr. James Coons]

Respond.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So how in the world could I be a Muslim? They don't believe. They do not believe. Jesus Christ is the word of God and he's eternal.

[Jay Dyer]

Maximum 80 IQ here. Maximum 80 IQ.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Good. Ad hominem.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, Tony,

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Very impressive for someone. All you can do is make ad hominem.

[Dr. James Coons]

Okay, we do have to go to the next one. Tony. The Baptist says is the orthodox argument that the Bible is not the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

No, this is equivocation. It is the written testimony to the person of the Word. You can in a sense call it the Word of God. That doesn't mean it's the only usage of the Word of God. I've been arguing that from the very beginning. This person is just fundamentally too stupid to make a distinction which he's already admitted multiple times he has to make.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from Kevin Blackwell says question for Pastor John. You said the KJB has produced fruit. How many books were in the first kgb?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It obviously included the Apocrypha in a separate section, but it has the 66 plus the Apocrypha.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This one, they didn't. They didn't include that as canon.

[Dr. James Coons]

Not a Mossad agent says question for pastor. For the first 1500 and even today many people were illiterate. But how does sola scriptura apply to the slow boys who are unable to read scripture themselves? Do they learn from others?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. So even if you couldn't read, if someone, if someone quotes scripture or reads scripture to you, then you could accept that as the Word of God. Obviously he just admitted the Old Testament people out loud and giving the sense of the reading, he admitted my argument.

[Dr. James Coons]

I do want to let Jonathan finish his sentence again.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can have someone read the Word of God out loud and you can believe it. You don't have to be able to read.

[Jay Dyer]

He admitted my argument at the beginning that when the apostles are preaching the oral Word of God, as Peter says in First Peter, that that is hearing the Word of God and it's not just reciting the Bible text. He admitted that they interpret it. So he's admitting that that is the Word of God being preached.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from. Do appreciate. Hayden Trent says Paul cannot interpret his own inter. Own text infallibly. What chance do we have?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

We're guided by the Holy Spirit. Why would we need the Holy Spirit if. If we were infallible or if the Apostle Paul was infallible? Why in First Corinthians chapter 7 does he have to question whether he has the spirit or not. If he's infallible in his own personal opinion, it's just a flawed argument that doesn't understand the Bible.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from JB Peltier says Acts and epistles are. That's not it. Sorry about that. Dissent and resist says, if Paul is in error, how on God's green earth does Sola Scriptura hold up?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, it's interesting because you have no central authority, you have no pope, and yet several Baptists all believe the same things. That's pretty interesting. It's because the Scriptures are final authority. We read the Scripture and we all come to the same conclusions. Because my sheep hear my voice. That's why we believe in salvation.

[Jay Dyer]

No true Scotsman. Yeah. So can you name somebody in the first 1400 years that had your Baptist views?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Not all of them. No.

[Jay Dyer]

Name one.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm saying they didn't have all of my views.

[Jay Dyer]

Can you name one person that had you?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's not one person that has all of my views. I don't believe that.

[Jay Dyer]

So nobody. Who taught Baptist theology the first 1400?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe there's plenty of people get point to the taught salvation by faith.

[Jay Dyer]

Who taught Baptist theology?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe there's plenty that believe salvation.

[Jay Dyer]

Did anybody. Did anybody teach Baptist theology the first 1400 years?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Probably, but I can't prove it.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't name one?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from. Do appreciate your question. JB Peltier says Acts and epistles are errant debate over.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can't name anybody in the first 500 years doing icons either.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, whatever.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure I can. Michael Garden has a book on icons in the first, second and third century. I've been to the consensus. No authority. It's an example.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You just do what you do, right.

[Jay Dyer]

It's not a fallacy to give you a source for documentation. That's not a fallacy, you idiot. I've been to the catacombs. You can go to the catacombs and see in the second, third century altars and icons in the catacombs in Rome.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I can appeal to plenty of people in.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not an appeal.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Church fathers have similar views to me.

[Jay Dyer]

So now you're moving the goalpost. You said nobody. You said I had no sources. Have you been to the catacombs?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Do you think that there's icons and imagery and paintings and altars in the catacombs?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe that in 754 AD they did.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you think they were black? I don't care what you think about something.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously I don't care. 754 AD Council.

[Jay Dyer]

You said somebody in the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th century about icons, and I gave you an example. The catacombs in Rome. Have you been there? Do you think they exist?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm sure there was some heretic that had icons, but no, they're everywhere.

[Jay Dyer]

There's plenty of them.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Is that. Is there anybody from the first century, from the second or third, that believes exactly like you and everything?

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely, yes.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Name?

[Jay Dyer]

Irenaeus. Why are you rolling your eyes?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What about the limit of Rome? Did he believe in you?

[Jay Dyer]

Have you read Ernest?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So you just. Cherry.

[Jay Dyer]

Have you read your name Church father rolled your eyes. Have you read it?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't believe anybody's read all of the writings.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't ask if you read it all. Have you read it?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, I've read very select.

[Jay Dyer]

Have you read anything from Irenaeus? Can you name one of his books?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Then how do you know when you rolled your eyes, that I don't have the same position again?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's. It's a difficult argument to. To really make.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you asked me the question. Why are you saying your own arguments are difficult? Idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously you've asked questions that are impossible.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, then why'd you ask me that if it's an impossible.

[Dr. James Coons]

Ryan. Ryan. Berenice says question for Shelley. How do you know that Paul died if the Bible doesn't mention his death?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's pointed on the man wants to die. I think it's a silly question. I don't think anybody believes he's alive.

[Dr. James Coons]

Mastered by Grace says for Jay, what is the spiritual nature of Scripture?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, all the Church Fathers described the inspiration that the Orthodox Church would adhere to as similar to the synergy of the two natures in Christ. So just as there's a divine divine nature synergized in the hypothetic union with the human nature, the human authors have a synergy with the Holy Spirit to write the text. So they have a human element and they have a divine element. And so both are included. And no, I don't believe that they're uninspired or I don't think they have errors. I said that they're not divine in the sense of uncreated. They are created texts that men created in history.

[Dr. James Coons]

Obviously this one from do appreciate your question. Dominant for Christ. Who was claiming that? Dominic, you got to just wait. There are other people that have questions too. Relax, Said For John, if the Bible is eternal, the Bible in it, the people in it have no free will, including the evil they do Or God is eternally bound by human choice. Which is it?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm not a Calvinist. I believe in free will. So I don't know if I really could go down that line of thinking. I believe that we all have free will.

[Dr. James Coons]

So this one from do appreciate your question. Hayden Trent says just piece up his Mormon level epistemology for knowing the canon. He just said nobody is infallible. Then how does he have certainty about the canon himself? Is the Holy Spirit's internal guidance also fallible?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, the Holy Spirit's not fallible. So obviously those who are saved have the Holy Spirit abiding inside of them. Jesus. So you're infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

Notice this.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Paul is fallible at the end of the day.

[Dr. James Coons]

Answer a question.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I have to believe what Christ said. Christ said that my sheep hear my voice.

[Jay Dyer]

That has to give you the canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So those who are saved. But again Christ didn't give you the canon books specifically. We all agree on. It's. It's whether or not the apology that's a fallacy.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Or whether or not Jay's, you know, cherry pick tradition and cherry pick stream of churches is no cherry picking.

[Jay Dyer]

And there's no cherry picking.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He just cherry picks. He just uses his private judgment. He believes he's right. He's picked the infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't argue that. That.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How does he know?

[Jay Dyer]

You said I believe you're right. You said that it's a purely subjective judgment that God.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Bro.

[Jay Dyer]

You said that the. Because you're. You're ridiculous.

[Dr. James Coons]

Jay is. Is that if he wants more time to finish that I. It's a person asking him a question. I can't let you interrupt while he's trying to answer someone else's question. Jonathan, do you have something else you want to add or were you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, go ahead.

[Dr. James Coons]

Well then.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Dr. James Coons]

All right, we'll go.

[Jay Dyer]

I was.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I was more upset about while he was over talking me when I was talking.

[Jay Dyer]

But yeah, because again he doesn't see how silly it is to say that the apostles aired. But when he has his own assessment of what the canon is, he doesn't err and he's infallible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I never said the apostles aired in

[Jay Dyer]

what the books were.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said they made mistakes they don't have.

[Jay Dyer]

There's no list of apostles having. There's no apostolic list of books.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You admitted that Peter made a mistake.

[Jay Dyer]

We both agreed there that's not the same thing as theological.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

And you just agree it's not the

[Jay Dyer]

same thing as theological

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

problem. If they didn't tell them what to pass down. How did they know? Well, just trust me, bro.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't say just trust me, bro. I have. I started referencing things and you said, don't go to that. Who cares? You started laughing at the church fathers when that's the only way. You admit that you go to the tradition of the Fathers. So you undid your own argument.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't go to the tradition of the fathers. Decide what's canon.

[Jay Dyer]

You admitted that Matthew is known by apostolic tradition.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes. There are good traditions that have been passed down. Every tradition.

[Jay Dyer]

You admitted that about the canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I admitted that the 66 books have been passed Matthew. Yes. And I said that that's a good tradition. There's good traditions.

[Jay Dyer]

So you rely on tradition. So you rely on tradition as well.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Absolutely. We rely on church and tradition, but we know it. We put them in their place. They're subject to Christ. You try to elevate man and tradition on power with Christ.

[Jay Dyer]

Christ. This is about what tradition tells us, what goes in the Bible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Which tradition?

[Jay Dyer]

The one about Matthew.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, we agree where we're relying on tradition for the Bible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You know, you. You just. You just switch the. You just switch. You're moving the gold. I'm not switching anything because I can agree that Matthew. I accept that tradition. You and I both disagree with Catholics. Then why do you reject Catholic tradition?

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's talking about canonicity for the Book of Matthew.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

We both reject all kinds of different traditions.

[Jay Dyer]

What does that have to do with this? I'm talking about you relying on tradition for Matthew Canonicity.

[Dr. James Coons]

J.B. peltier says. Jonathan. All right, Jonathan, this is a very serious question. Do you have a demon or is your head full of rocks? Okay, thank you for taking it stride. Justin Henley says Gospels and Acts were written in 65 AD what scripture was Paul teaching to the New Covenant Christians and advising others in the epistles to teach?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

In the Book of Acts, it references the Apostle Paul teaching out of the Old Testament. So, you know, obviously he had the Old Testament scriptures to teach and preach out of. He shows them. We have in the Book of Acts, chapter number eight, you have them teaching out of the book of Isaiah. So obviously they have the Old Testament scriptures to reference. They have Christ's words that he did teach to them, that he spoke to them. So they have those that they can rely upon. And obviously you have the New Testament epistles. Once they're there, they have that scripture as well. The Bible teaches that the Apostle Paul was actually visited and was given Words of knowledge. Obviously the Holy Spirit came upon the apostle Paul and he was able to teach and preach scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

If a Mormon comes and says that he has the internal testimony of the Holy Spirit telling him that the Book of Mormon is supposed to be part of the Bible, there's no way that this person can objectively give a criteria by which he is correct. And a Mormon is wrong because his final court of appeal was his own subjective feelings.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Now, the Book of Mormon doesn't go all the way back to the time of Christ. Additionally, it's not internally consistent, nor does your church and the book.

[Jay Dyer]

You admitted. You admitted your church doesn't go back.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I didn't say that my church. I said the scriptures, bro. You can't even. You can't even pay attention whatsoever. You just.

[Jay Dyer]

Church of Wild George is Mormon. You are a Mormon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You know, how am I a Mormon? I believe the scripture. So the 66 books, I old man, didn't come from the the first century. Is that what you're claiming now?

[Jay Dyer]

You cut down what came down from the first.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What did I cut down?

[Jay Dyer]

I said that this you don't believe your own stupid. KGV had the deutero canon. You just said. Well, they didn't have it fully part of the canon. Says who?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So did Jerome. So did a lot of people didn't

[Jay Dyer]

accept the cherry picking Jerome as if we're supposed to follow Jerome. So what? What?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm not cherry picking. I'm saying there was people that same thing.

[Jay Dyer]

Why Jerome?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's an example someone that translated into Latin which became a very interesting submitted to vulgar translation. He was one of the most brilliant people that translated the Bible in the last.

[Jay Dyer]

And he was. And he was. And he was humanly. I don't even care if he was he Catholic.

[Dr. James Coons]

We must go to the next one.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes, he was Catholic.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. So now you admit that you rely on.

[Dr. James Coons]

But guys, we just have.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, your confession says that you're Catholic in the 1647 confession you call yourself. Yes, I'm proud of the name War, bro. We're orthodox. You all called yourselves Catholic until we are orthodox.

[Dr. James Coons]

And what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna ask if you guys can only do rebuttals like once in a great while. So sometimes I'm. I'm just gonna say we can't do it this one because we do have a ton of questions. Master by grace says Jay, what did Paul use to correct Peter?

[Jay Dyer]

There's nothing about referring to scripture that reflects that necessitates or requires Sola scriptura. In fact, in the councils, the scriptures are given primacy, typically in argumentation. So I can believe in multiple authorities. And I can also believe within the scriptures, there's a tier of authority that does not equate to the non sequitur to say that it's sola scriptura.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He didn't answer the question.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I did. I said that appealing to scripture does not equate to sola scriptura. That is your non sequitur, sir.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one coming in from. Do appreciate your question. Hayden Trent says, is the divine voice fallible or infallible? Either way, sola scriptura is false.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The divine voice is obviously infallible. It's God, so obviously it would be infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

God speaks to you?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I do not believe he audibly speaks to me at all. I believe you said the divine voice

[Jay Dyer]

told you the canon. You said the divine voice told you the canon Only through the scripture.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't think the Bible doesn't tell

[Jay Dyer]

you the canon is what I. It doesn't tell you the canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did you even listen the words that I said?

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did I say that God doesn't speak to me audibly?

[Jay Dyer]

Does the Bible tell you the canon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You don't even listen.

[Jay Dyer]

Does the Bible tell you the canon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The Bible tells me that I'm gonna hear God's voice.

[Jay Dyer]

The canon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Sure.

[Jay Dyer]

The canon. Which cannon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, there is. Just like it says.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so that's why you said the divine voice. Your orthodox church or your which divine voice?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Tradition.

[Jay Dyer]

Which divine voice?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The scripture itself.

[Jay Dyer]

The question is, which scripture?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Do you understand there's an author to a book.

[Jay Dyer]

Which divine voice is telling you which canon of scripture?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The scripture is the divine, divine God.

[Jay Dyer]

Where in the scriptures does it tell you the canon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This is really hard for you.

[Jay Dyer]

Does the scripture.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Do you understand that there's an author to a book? Does the scripture holy men of God spake as they're moved by the Holy Ghost. The Holy Ghost.

[Jay Dyer]

Does scripture tell you the canon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, I already answered.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. It doesn't tell you the canon. So you're dealing with the thing that doesn't Orthodox church. So it doesn't circular appealing to. So you just give yourself again.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from Marilyn says you both would have followed Lucifer out of heaven because you need a master, not a lover and a friend. Okay, Josh. Lawrence says. Okay, Vulpez says question for Jonathan without appealing to the masses or special pleading. By what authority is my Chinese takeout menu which is divine, not the word of God?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, number one it doesn't even claim to be the word of God. Number two, it doesn't have the same divine voice as the rest of Scripture. Number three, it wasn't received by Christians. I mean, it doesn't fail. It doesn't pass any of the tests that I'm Dr. Seuss.

[Jay Dyer]

The Christians that are received, even if

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

you can see that all Catholics, all Orthodox and all Protestants include the Christians, so called.

[Jay Dyer]

That is fallacy.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They all reject.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't matter that they all do it. It matters what basis they do it, which is the apostolic tradition. You have no basis.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I just said that it wasn't passed down from Christians. Christians didn't receive it.

[Jay Dyer]

What Christians?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Any who zero. What Christians accepted this Chinese menu? Zero.

[Jay Dyer]

No, he's arguing that if the canon is fallible, then you can add new books to it.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one.

[Jay Dyer]

There we go. In theory, he agreed. In theory, yes, the canon is fallible.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

But I do believe it's added to it.

[Jay Dyer]

What you believe?

[Dr. James Coons]

Mason Marcus says stop. He's already dead. Rock unsteady, reckon steady says question for Pastor Jack. Jesus observed the Feast of Dedication in tradition and Deutero Canon, not the Protestant canon. Does this show he affirmed both?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Can you read that one more time? I'm sorry.

[Dr. James Coons]

No problem. They say Jesus observed the Feast of Dedication in tradition and Deuterocanon, not the Protestant canon. Does this show he affirmed both?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe that Jesus obviously followed the traditions that are taught in the Old Testament and there was good traditions in those. He did not observe the traditions of the elders as they rebuked him for it. And I see there's zero evidence that he followed the. The Apocrypha in any way. That's just. That's just not true.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I have a whole article from all Protestant scholars affirming and admitting that the Deuterocanon, which the apostles almost entirely used and cited in many cases the Deuterocanon. So I will put that into the chat.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I would love. Can we just do your number one point? Because I've read your article and your number one point is so ridiculous that if anybody can believe, nobody cares what

[Jay Dyer]

you think is ridiculous because you made yourself ridiculous tonight. And in the article. In the article.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Shut up.

[Jay Dyer]

In the article. I have the link right there. You can read all the Protestant scholars that make this guy look ridiculous.

[Dr. James Coons]

I'll give you the last word on that, Jonathan, since the question is for

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

you, appeal to authority. If we look at the first example, he has Ecclesiasticus at chapter number 11 as saying that it's quoting 2nd John 1, verse 10 and Ecclesiastes 11, verse 31 says for Elioth and Wade and turneth good into evil and in things worthy praise will lay blame upon thee. 2nd John 1:10 if there come any undo and bring not this doctrine receive him not in your house neither bid him God speed. These aren't even on the same planet. They're not referencing each other whatsoever. And this is his number one proof.

[Jay Dyer]

No it's not.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's the horrific scholarship this person is so stupid that he buy into. I want to believe that they're quoting.

[Jay Dyer]

I want to reply to this.

[Dr. James Coons]

JB Pearl here says Rabbinical Judaism didn't exist yet, Jonathan.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Say that again.

[Dr. James Coons]

Rabbinical Judaism didn't exist yet, Jonathan.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Before the time of Christ. Yeah, I don't. I believe that the Talmud is.

[Jay Dyer]

Is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Is post Christ.

[Dr. James Coons]

Hayden Trent says Divine voice told me Apocrypha is scripture the mission. Go ahead, go ahead says Pastor. Where do you find Pharisees in Old Testament? Same for Jay.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Where do I find them? The. The Pharisees are just brought up multiple times in the Bible as people that had gone deviant from the word of God and they were teaching their traditions above the scripture. You see that in the Catholic Churches.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, he lied about my argument. My argument does not begin with Ecclesiasticus. In my first article about the canon of Scripture and refuting the Protestant view, I cite nothing but Protestant scholars all the way down. There's nothing relying upon Ecclesiasticus. And he thinks that because an argument is first, it's the strongest. This is a stupid person. Here's the article right there. You can read it. All it is is a Protestant scholarship proving and admitting that the Deuterocanonical texts are in the Septuagint and that's what the apostles use. That's not an argument. That's not an appeal to authority to bring in authorities, you idiot.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one going from LionOfJudah56. Question for John. How do you get an infallible New Testament canon with a fallible church councils? Seems like a paradox.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, of course we got the scripture themselves from fallible man. The Bible teaches that holy men of God. God spake as they're moved by the Holy Ghost. None of them were perfect. They all admitted they had mistakes. At the end of the day, we have to recognize that mankind is a sinner. Why would I believe if every single person's a sinner, that if you added enough of them together they would magically not be a sinner or now magically be Infallible, like some spiritual Megatron.

[Jay Dyer]

So he just admitted that the canon of scripture itself is fallible a few minutes ago. Right. So it's a. It's a fallible collection of infallible books, as they like to say. And that undoes his position.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said that someone could get it wrong, not that the canon's infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

You did. You said the canon could be wrong.

[Dr. James Coons]

Says question to Jay. Do the oral traditions of the true Orthodox have validity? If no, how do you know that?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know what she's. What group is he talking about? I mean, is he talking about just Orthodox in general, or is he talking about a small schismatic group?

[Dr. James Coons]

Descendants? Go ahead as the Protestant. Ask the Protestant if he knows who Saint Polycarp is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm not super familiar with him now.

[Jay Dyer]

So he doesn't know. One of the most famous post Apostolic fathers has no idea what the first, second, third century church fathers teach.

[Dr. James Coons]

Mr. Lucky man says, okay, Freemason. J has cooked third Freemason. All right? Snake Foot says IFB equals sovereign citizen, they get pulled over, pull out the constitution and tell the cop. The text itself is the final authority, not the courts.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, that is true that if a cop violates the constitution, he'd be wrong. But, you know, whatever.

[Jay Dyer]

That doesn't make the expositor of the constitution the final authority. The Supreme Court ends up being the final authority, which is all this would. That disproves this whole position.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah, because the Supreme Court's never overruled themselves and made mistakes. Oh, wait, they did. Just like your church.

[Jay Dyer]

It's an analogy, you idiot. When did the Orthodox Church.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I just applied your own analogy.

[Jay Dyer]

When did we make a mistake?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

754ad you said icons are blasphemous. 787 so that was an emperor.

[Jay Dyer]

That was an empress's council. That's not true. Oh.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So the Empress Irene. This lady comes in and says, hey, guys, you have to change your position or you're no longer a bishop. And then they just all magically decided to switch positions.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, the same people. The same people who determine you can. And you idiot, it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You need Empress Irene to tell you what's right.

[Jay Dyer]

She's the one that had the false council.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, you just got that wrong. 787 Empress Irene is the one that brought the icons in. And you're. You're wrong about your fact there. Number two. The fact that she put pressure on these bishops to go ahead and change their position or they were going to lose their bishopric is just Another fact. So of course with all that political.

[Jay Dyer]

Excuse me. No, you're right. I just misstated. It's not Empress Irene, it's the Council of Herrera was a false council because it was rejecting the previous councils and their teachings. It's not false. I'm saying that the imperial power was behind the Council. That is. It is the wrong. I did reference the wrong person, but that was convoked by Constantine V, not Irene.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from. Do appreciate your question. Snake voice. What's we got that Tyler Ross Taylor Ross says question for Jonathan. Can you prove the perspicuity of Scripture using Sola scriptura without assuming that the scriptura is perspicuous? Because that would be circular logic.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I've agreed that my. My position's circular. I've never denied that I do believe that the scripture is self authenticating and the Scripture talks about being preserved. So if I believe that the scripture is preserved, then I would have to believe that there's a book out there that's been preserved. That's why I use the King James Bible because it's based on the Hebrew and the Greek which has been preserved. And so therefore we have a preserved Bible in English today.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that the Rabbinic Masoret proto Masoretic is right?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, the King James Bible does deviate very, very seldom, but a few times from the Masoretic, but they don't deviate from the consonantal vowels of the Hebrew text. So.

[Jay Dyer]

No, but I'm saying the. The Masoretic listing of the canon. How do you know that's correct? Correct?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, I just said that they don't always use the Masoretic vow pointings.

[Jay Dyer]

And you said earlier in the debate that it's the Rabbinic canon that you use for the Old Testament. How do we know that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You're putting words in my mouth. No, you said that I did not say anything about Rabbinic. That's the Rabbinic whatever Hebrews had the canon.

[Jay Dyer]

You said the Hebrew canon and you thought that that was just the Hebrew canon. That's actually the Rabbinic canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

We use the Hebrew consonantal vowels period. The Masoretic canon. Talking about that, you're just not understanding textual criticism.

[Jay Dyer]

You're not a textual critic point. You. You didn't want to go to the. You don't know. Are you a textual critic?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm just explaining to you I did not deviate from the Hebrew consonants from the Masoretic. Are you a textual seldom points.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you a textual critic?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I think everybody employs textual criticism.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you Are you. Are you a textual critic?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Everyone is.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh my God.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one coming in from. Do appreciate your question. Hayden Trent says without Church fathers, you wouldn't have Scripture. God did not hand down the KGV in 1600.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I already addressed that. I believe Christians handed down the. The manuscripts that they were delivered from.

[Jay Dyer]

People that he thinks are heretics. People that he thinks are heretics is who gave him the Bible. He relies on his. Our tradition. And then he calls us heretics. But he's the heretic.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The scribes and the Pharisees weren't even saved and they were able to copy the Bible. And again, additionally, a machine can copy this Bible. No person copied this, so no person

[Jay Dyer]

doesn't even copy this. What are you talking about?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This is made by a machine. A machine can copy a manuscript.

[Jay Dyer]

It was talking about the first 1400 years, you idiot. We're not talking about now.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Exactly. Christians were copying this Bible.

[Jay Dyer]

But who were those Christians?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It doesn't matter. And they copied the Old Testament.

[Jay Dyer]

Who were those Christians in those centuries? Yeah, but Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would not leave his church, right? Right.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't believe it has.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, in those centuries, the first 1400 years, did it leave.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so where were the representative true theologians and Christians, according to you then?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't, I don't have this like unbroken genealogy that I'm.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so the church can die. Did you, Didn't Jesus say Matthew 18

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

that the church obviously didn't die? I'm still here.

[Jay Dyer]

Matthew 16:18. No, in those centuries, in Matthew 16, 16:18, Jesus said the gates of hell would not prevail against the church and he would be with the church according to the end of the age through the Holy Spirit. So where were the true believers in those first 1400 years?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe that Christians always existed, period. Regardless.

[Jay Dyer]

Can you name some representative bodies or people?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's. There's all kinds of groups that were outside the Catholic Church.

[Jay Dyer]

Name some that you believe that weren't novationists or albigens.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't like point. I don't like pointing to these hair.

[Jay Dyer]

Because you don't have any. Because you don't have anybody. Again, so you made your own sect.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How did I make my own section?

[Jay Dyer]

You have no connection with the church of history. You just made up a church.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Did I make up Baptist?

[Jay Dyer]

Now the Baptists are made up, idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, how are they made up?

[Jay Dyer]

Where were they in the first 1400 years?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, we're within the first 1400 years. Where was your. Your Orthodox tradition is changing. Constantly. That's a. Catholic tradition is changing.

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's not

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

anybody in the second century that has some iron that they're

[Dr. James Coons]

kissing and worshiping here. Rachel Wilson says Jonathan's argument is, quote, you know it when you see it, unquote. Then why don't any of the different dozens or hundreds of Protestant churches agree on what Scripture says? They all disagree. So how is the canon of Scripture or its meaning self evident?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Well, the Bible talks about divisions coming from heresy. Obviously, there's tons of heretics. There's horrific Protestant churches out there. The Orthodox, why did they split from Coptic? Why did the Catholics separate from the Orthodox? Obviously, people have divisions. You know, why is there the Russian Orthodox? Why is there the Greek Orthodox?

[Jay Dyer]

Those are not divisions.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can't claim that those are not divisions.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't even know they're not divisions.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously, you know, he wants to sit

[Jay Dyer]

here and claim he doesn't even know

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

there's no such thing as this. We, quote, agree. It's just as soon as you don't agree with Jay's position, you're just kicked out of the club. This is total Scotsman.

[Jay Dyer]

He doesn't even know that the Orthodox are. Are. Those are liturgical national churches. They're not disagreements.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Were they having a liturgical service in people's houses in the first century?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, they were.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

With icons?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. You can read the scholarship on that like you don't even know. Look up the Dear Europa Synagogue.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Your liturgy on a Sunday morning doesn't even read from the Old Testament. The Apostle Paul was preaching the Old Testament, the Book of Acts. It's silly to think they're having this liturgical service.

[Jay Dyer]

You understand? Scholars admit this. This. You're laughing with your smug so.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So some random person said it. It must be true.

[Jay Dyer]

Some random scholars like Hugh, Brigham Young

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

said it must be true.

[Jay Dyer]

Like Anglican liturgist scholars.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Brigham Young said it, so it must be true. Right? What?

[Jay Dyer]

This one I'm admitting.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How is that different than the Mormons

[Jay Dyer]

just appealing to their prophets saying something true? Protestant academics.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from do appreciate it. Dissent and resist. Says, I'm not. Not a Catholic, but I'm going to appeal to Jerome, who is Catholic. Is there seriously any reason why we should believe these people? This is utterly absurdity at this point. How many times is Pastor John going to refute himself? So, Pastor Jonathan, they say that you're refuting yourself when you say, I'm not Catholic, but I'm going to appeal to Jerome, who is Catholic.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, again, he asked me a question specifically. Could I point to Anybody that had my specific canon in times past. No, I didn't want it to. I pointed to.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

As someone that had my particular.

[Jay Dyer]

You're lying. I asked you. You're lying. I asked you. The first three centuries.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You did ask that question. You asked. In other parts of the debate or other parts of the discussion. Can you name.

[Jay Dyer]

No idea. I said in the first three centuries. Can you name somebody with your canon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Regardless, I'm answering the question of why. I answered the question about Jerome. I'm not appealing.

[Jay Dyer]

Doesn't answer the question. So, no.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

My church, Father.

[Jay Dyer]

So is there one in the first three centuries?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's plenty of people that appeal to

[Jay Dyer]

name one Scriptures that I appeal. You're just. You. So if you don't know, how do you say that again? You can't name one, so how do you know?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously, Saint Athanasius is someone that appeals to the 27 books, and I appeal this to 27 books of the New Testament.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't ask you about that. I asked you about the entire canon of Scripture. Athanasius the first to the deuteron canon. So you just repeated yourself again.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again. Saint Athanasius does not refer to the deuterocanometer.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, he does.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

As scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, he does.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He does not.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, he does.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again. You don't.

[Jay Dyer]

Even letters. His special letters. Can we quote him his festal letters. He says that catechumens are instructed to study the deuterocanonical text.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'll pull up the. The Saint Athanasius quote because I think I. I have it.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't want your quote. Mine? I'm telling you what he says in the festal letters. He says.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Athanasius says that it is not considered scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

No, he says that catechumens are instructed to read the Deuterocanon in the festival letters.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He puts the apocrypha as not on par with scripture. It's a very clear statement.

[Jay Dyer]

Why would he tell catechumens to read it? You know what a catechumen is?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He could read it for historical value. No, that's what they said.

[Jay Dyer]

You know what a catechumen is?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It doesn't matter.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't matter.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's the point. Do you know what the argument is? Was what was scripture? And he identified the apocrypha as not scripture. And then you just lied and said that he appealed to it.

[Jay Dyer]

You're lying. Do you know what a catechumen is?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't give a. I don't. I don't want to appeal.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't know what he's part of the argument.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You're just.

[Jay Dyer]

It's the part of my argument when he says the catechumens are instructed to read the Deuterocanon. You don't even know what a catechumen is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Look, Saint Athanasius. So he doesn't clearly says he doesn't know the Apocrypha is not scripture. And Jay just lied. You're not even supposed to ignore that by going. And I'm not gonna allow him to go on a rabbit.

[Jay Dyer]

He has a famous festival. He says that the. The catechumens are instructed to read the Durocan. And you don't even know what a catechumen is. How are you competent to say what's the case on this? Tell me what a catechum is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I can't tell you what. I have to know what a catechumen is to be able to quote.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you do.

[Dr. James Coons]

I'm just going to read St. Anthony

[Jay Dyer]

because this is a quote.

[Dr. James Coons]

Gentlemen, we got to go to the next question. Fernando Temecul says the Old Testament was for the most part established hundreds of years before the formation of the New Testament canon councils, of which the Septuagint with the Deuterocanon was used by 1st through 3rd century Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct? Correct. Yeah. This is what my article shows and it refutes him.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from Lombago says, petition A. J to wear pit viper sunglasses every debate on modern day debate. G.R. says.

[Jay Dyer]

And that's why I wore my. My panda shirt to show you that I'm nice.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from GR says all of Protestantism is just trust me, bro. Okay. My guess is you don't agree with that. Jonathan. This one from Jerome, Elaine, I said trust the Bible, not me says, notice that we can't see any epistemology from Baptist yet.

[Jay Dyer]

Right?

[Dr. James Coons]

She's more smack talk.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, his epistemology was trust me, bro

[Dr. James Coons]

says, God bless you, James. Keep doing the Lord's work. Truly.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, epistemology. It's a book, Bobby.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How we know that it's. It's the right.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't tell you the canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It is the canon.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't tell you which one's the right.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It is the canon. It doesn't have to tell me.

[Jay Dyer]

It's begging the question.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do we know it's not begging the question? It is. It's God's word. I'm supposed to accept it.

[Jay Dyer]

It. How do we know that it's not the Deuterocanon?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How do we know it's not the deuterocanon. Well, again, because it doesn't have the

[Jay Dyer]

divine voice that's begging the question. Everybody else.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's not internally consistent the rest of

[Jay Dyer]

the first thousand years.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's not been preserved in the Hebrew.

[Jay Dyer]

You're a schismatic.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's not been received by all. All Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't have a who. Who are all the Christians? You can't name one. The first 1400 years that believes it's

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

not received by all of them.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't name one that believes your view. That doesn't count. Heretics.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You want me to read it? It. Saint Athanasius said there's other books besides these not indeed included in the canon. And then he lists the wisdom of Solomon, the wisdom of Sirach, and he

[Jay Dyer]

goes on to say there are four

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

categories that they're not in the canon.

[Jay Dyer]

He goes on to Shut up. You're lying. No, you're lying. He says they are to be read by catechumens. And you don't know what that means.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's scripture. It's not canon.

[Jay Dyer]

It is part of the canon. It's the word deuterocanon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Means he's contradicting himself.

[Jay Dyer]

It's secondary canon. I'm telling you what it means because he tells the catechumens to read it. And you don't know what it catechumen is. How are you gonna. How are you gonna interpret it when you don't know what that is?

[Dr. James Coons]

This one.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So he's just. He's not included in canon. Just kidding. It's canon.

[Dr. James Coons]

Vulpez says there is no Jewish canon, quote, unquote. At the time of the apostles, different groups of Jews had different cannons. Also, Dr. James, please become orthodox, homie.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

So again, Jesus Christ on the walk to Emmaus tells the two men that they are fools for not believing that all the prophets have spoken. How can he hold those men accountable for not having read everything that was scripture if they couldn't know what the scripture was?

[Jay Dyer]

It's a non sack horse.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They know that what the Hebrew canon was at the time of Christ. The question is just false.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a non sequitur because it's not telling you the canon of scripture. He's talking about the Old Testament. By the way, if I look at Athanasius's list right here, do you believe Barrack is part of scripture

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

again? Does he. Did he say that the apocrypha was not included in the canon?

[Jay Dyer]

Barrack is listed right here as part of the scripture in his 39th Festival. Letter. Do you believe that? No. Then you don't have. Then Athanasius doesn't prove your position, you idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I just said that. You lied that he said the Apocrypha was included in the canon.

[Jay Dyer]

You said it's the old test. You said he has your view. He includes Baruch. That disproves you.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't appeal to St. Anathanasius for my canon. I never said at any point. Saint Athanasius is why I have the canon. You're the one that says that, James. Baruch is the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

Can we share the screen?

[Dr. James Coons]

If you want to share your screen, I'm ready for you.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, because I have the letter right here, and he's totally full of it.

[Dr. James Coons]

But you have to share the screen. You have to press the button.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, hold on.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'll share my quote, too.

[Jay Dyer]

It's the same letter, you idiot. You just read only part of it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You wouldn't answer the question that he said not.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm answering. No, I'm showing. I'm showing. You're full of it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Okay, show me where he didn't say that quote.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a question of the full quote, not your part of the text.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'll read the whole quote for you. These are not.

[Jay Dyer]

No, indeed.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Included.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not talking about that. And so if I have to shut my computer down because I don't have the permissions to share it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

But it says but appointed by the Fathers to be read. I'll pull it up on the screen so you can read it.

[Jay Dyer]

I know I want to read it. I don't. I'm not. Listen. You're lying about what the rest of the letter says. He says the Old Testament includes. This is paragraph four. He says the book of Barak with Jeremiah. That's not your Old Testament. Correct.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't believe in Barrack.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so it's not your Old Testament. The Last paragraph, Section 7, says the teachings of the deuterocanonical text, or what are we call. What we call the Durocanon, are to be read and for the purpose of the catechumens. What does that mean?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm not appealing to Saint Athanasius for my.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you did. You said it was the Protestant canon, and it's not. You just admitted that.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said that?

[Jay Dyer]

You said it was a Protestant canon, didn't you?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said that he appealed to the 27 books, did he not?

[Jay Dyer]

No, the Old Testament canon. You know what we're talking about?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Liars.

[Jay Dyer]

You said the Old Testament canon is Baruch.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Supposed to be Old Testament canon? According to Saint Athanasius, yes. So why don't you accept it?

[Jay Dyer]

We. We do, you idiot. Dude, you're so stupid, man. It is our Old Testament.

[Dr. James Coons]

You got to go to the next question. This one from Ryan Finley says question for Pastor Jonathan. Do you even have the right translation of the Old Testament, or does yours use the Masoretic text? Check Isaiah 42. 4. If it says quote unquote coastlands instead of gentiles, your text is wrong

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

again. I use. I use the Hebrew for the Old Testament in the King James Bible.

[Dr. James Coons]

Rachel Wilson says my homeschooled kids learned by about age 7 that most people were illiterate prior to the invention of the printing press. Does Jonathan even know Know when that was literacy in 300 A.D. roman Empire was about 5 to 10%, by the way.

[Jay Dyer]

This is so stupid.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Does. It has nothing to do.

[Jay Dyer]

It's common knowledge. Yeah, it does, because you said that nobody knows.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You're talking about the second century, number one. So you know, not. Not the same. Not the same comparison.

[Jay Dyer]

You made the claim that they're literate.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You said in the second century, almost everybody couldn't read.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's what we were talking about.

[Jay Dyer]

It's common talking about.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

They're talking about right before the printing press. This is separated by thousands.

[Jay Dyer]

Everybody before the printing press, you idiot. Man, you're so fun. You're fundamentally stupid.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why would. Why would Christ tell us to read the Bible if no one could read?

[Jay Dyer]

Are you this dumb? Seriously, are you actually, like, that challenged? Are you a little bit downs or what? Like, are you like, I'm glad.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Arguments. And you proved the world that all you can do is make. You can only make insults.

[Jay Dyer]

Thousand arguments.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one.

[Jay Dyer]

The down syndrome. Bias. Dude.

[Dr. James Coons]

Odd Chaldean. Sorry. These are mostly just insults. Master by grace. Question for Jade. Does tu kokui mean you don't have the answer to anything you ask of others?

[Jay Dyer]

No, it means in the course of Q and A and cross examinations, if I ask a question and you ask me a question as a retort, then no, that's a fallacy. I. I answered his questions plenty of times about how we know tradition, how we know what the canon is, how we know that there's liturgy. I gave multiple examples. And by the way, again, the Athanasius quote is in the chat right here. And you can see in paragraph seven and in paragraph four, he was wrong.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's funny, because if Jay had been there, he could have corrected Jesus, since often when Jesus asked a question he retorted with a question himself.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, rhetorical question is not too quoque.

[Dr. James Coons]

Tony, the Baptist says who wrote the book of Hebrews? Jonathan. Because apparently it matters so much. They said Jay, ask the orthodox who wrote the book of Hebrews. Because apparently it matters so much.

[Jay Dyer]

We believe that Paul wrote it. That's our tradition.

[Dr. James Coons]

The sentence resist says keep it on. Note that Jonathan appealed to tradition. Debate is over period. Nothing more needs to be said from here on out. Sola scriptura is utterly nonsense and has no basis in Christianity. Period.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, I. I said that there's nothing wrong with tradition as long as it lines up with scripture. That that doesn't end up the question

[Jay Dyer]

was about you relying on we do

[Dr. James Coons]

have to single person.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No one in the Protestant Reformation that said tradition doesn't matter at all. There's no. No one holds that position. It's just like a straw man argument.

[Jay Dyer]

No tradition for knowing Matthew's canonicity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No one denies that you do.

[Jay Dyer]

You say that it's just.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

When did I say that Matthew's not the Gospel of Matthew. Again you just make all these lying

[Jay Dyer]

Matthew, you admit it as tradition. Thus you rely on tradition to know the scriptures, the canon to know that

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

it's the book of Matthew, but not

[Jay Dyer]

that what which is part of canonicity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, the scripture is self authenticating. I don't need scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not an argument. I can just say my position order the order of the books tradition.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't need to know the order of the books to know that it's the word of God.

[Jay Dyer]

It's not a question of the order, it's a question of inclusion. I could just say my position is self authenticating. If you can do that. That's why it's a fallacy. Right?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Exactly. Your position is you believe your church is infallible because your church is infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm telling you why. No, that's not my argument. My argument was never just I know the Bible because my church is infallible. I never met. That's a straw man. I said we have tradition from the apostolic teaching of the church fathers to know what the canon is. You don't have that.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That where did you get that tradition? How do you know you have the

[Jay Dyer]

right from the church fathers and the.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Exactly. So you appeal to your church to know where you got that tradition. And so it's a circular logic. You appeal to your church to get your tradition and so you're just saying trust me bro, I picked the right.

[Jay Dyer]

The difference is that you rely on my Church to get your books. That's.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I never asked your church for the. And again, your church.

[Jay Dyer]

You stole it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Different Bible.

[Jay Dyer]

You got it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How could I say that I appeal to your church?

[Jay Dyer]

Because you rely on us for knowing that Matthew wrote Matthew as you already admitted did.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I didn't. Again, this is all Christian. This is not.

[Jay Dyer]

You already admitted that. You already admitted that.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I admitted that Christians passed down the tradition of Matthew.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. They were orthodox in those centuries.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Everyone had that tradition. Show me the person that didn't.

[Jay Dyer]

No, they didn't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Show me the person that did.

[Jay Dyer]

No, they didn't.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Show me the person that didn't.

[Jay Dyer]

You said everybody had the tradition that Matthew was part of the the scriptures. Where is this?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You don't even know that Matthew is called the book of Matthew. That was the whole argument.

[Jay Dyer]

No, you just changed the goalpost authorship. Dude, you're so stupid. I'm talking about that Matthew disciple wrote it. There's all kinds of pseudobigrapha that have apostles names, the gospel of Thomas. The question is that a pot. An apostle of Jesus wrote it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe that an apostle Jesus wrote it. Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know it? Not whether you believe it.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I just told you it's tradition.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. So you rely on tradition from our church and from our Father.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Every single agrees with.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, that's a fallacy. That's an appeal to the masses.

[Dr. James Coons]

Dance slob says Jay. Why does the canon matter when talking about the authority of scripture? I can do sola scriptura without all of scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

Without what?

[Dr. James Coons]

Without all of scripture.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I didn't understand the question.

[Jay Dyer]

How could you even do sola scriptura? So he's saying that scripture. Well, my argument was in the opening statement that scripture itself points to the word of God being oral and to traditions that are necessary and binding. So even if you say I'm just going to go with scripture, scripture itself points out to other authorities.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from do appreciate it. Dan Alien says God can't be in a loaf of bread and wine, but God is in the book on my dresser. This one from Tony the Baptist says their early church fathers say Paul wrote Hebrews because trust me, bro.

[Jay Dyer]

No, the argument is that we do have apostolic oral tradition. I'm the one defending tradition. I'm not just saying trust me, bro. I'm going to say that when I go to Irenaeus, when I go to Justin Martyr, when I go to Clement, when I go to to Cyprian and those early church fathers, they are going to back up the positions and the tradition that we have in the Orthodox Church that he relies on, as he already admitted, to even know that Matthew wrote Matthew.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, how do we know Coptic isn't the right tradition?

[Jay Dyer]

Easy.

[Dr. James Coons]

Airborne Animal says. Does Jonathan believe that his understanding of the Bible supersedes those of the apostles? How does he know that it's God that is listening and answering his prayers and not. Not the demon or the devil?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

My personal interpretation doesn't usurp anybody. The word of God is the normative authority. It's the final authority. And many Christians come to the same conclusions. Not all, and I never said all. There's obviously been schisms. There's obviously been heresies. There's obviously false traditions. He believes there's false traditions. He rejects many Catholic false traditions.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you know what?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Then you have to ask the question.

[Jay Dyer]

How does he know he doesn't appeal to Scripture?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because at the end of the day, the Scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

Scripture doesn't. That's a non sequitur. It doesn't mean sola scriptura. And by the way, you don't even. Do you even know what normative authority is?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's how we know something's true, or the finding of.

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's not what is true. No, that's not what normative authority is. So you don't even know in ethics what is normal.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Your normative authority is the Orthodox Church. My normative authority is the Scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't know what it means.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The binding. What's.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't know what it again means? No.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

My church can exercise normative authority through the Scripture. Yours is doing it through tradition. And the Scripture and ethics. The difference is the tradition, not in ethics.

[Jay Dyer]

What is normativity?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

This is a silly argumentation.

[Jay Dyer]

You're using the word. You don't even know what it is. What is it?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's binding authority on what's true.

[Jay Dyer]

So it binds your conscience.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What? The Scripture? Yes, it binds my conscience.

[Jay Dyer]

Are there any normative authorities that combine people's conscience to the 66 books of the Scriptures?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The Scripture itself.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not a normative authority. It can't bind you. It's a book.

[Dr. James Coons]

It's.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's got instructions. Bro, these instructions are the binding authority. God's word. God is the ultimate.

[Jay Dyer]

Jesus didn't provide any living authorities that can determine what goes in the book.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Look, Herod was rebuked for having his brother Philip's wife.

[Jay Dyer]

How would you only know that?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How is Herod bound?

[Jay Dyer]

Assuming that you have the right candidate,

[Dr. James Coons]

you got to go to the next question. This one from Airborne. Anim animal. This one from Torren James says, jay, will you ever stop being a big meanie to prots? This one from Cam says, I'm not

[Jay Dyer]

being mean because I have a panda shirt on. How could I be mean if I

[Dr. James Coons]

have this says your Bible is wrong. Mine is right because the sweet voice whispers in my ear and tells me while also saying, trust me, bro. That's rich. Great job.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it's just a Mormon. He's a Mormon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah. The sweet voice that told you to be orthodox.

[Dr. James Coons]

Okay, this one from R. Borg says question for Pastor Jonathan. How would your position deal with the Gnostics during the second century? Is there a method? Method?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The scripture itself proves them to be false. They're not internally consistent with the scripture.

[Jay Dyer]

Did they have a canon of scripture in the second century?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm sure many Gnostics had their version origin. Whoever you want.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not asking Gnostics. I'm asking obviously about the true Christians. Did they have a canon in the second century?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I believe they did because they. How would we even get them?

[Jay Dyer]

Can you give an example? You believe that they did. Can you give an example of it?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

We have it. If they didn't have the Bible know what to pass down. Never gotten it. They had to know what to pass

[Jay Dyer]

down in the second century that had the Protestant canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You know that. You know why they had the canon? Because they knew was the scripture and they passed it down.

[Jay Dyer]

Name a church father.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It was received and recognized.

[Jay Dyer]

Name a representative person that had this canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't need to represent.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Because some Catholic church supposedly has my doctrine at this time in history.

[Jay Dyer]

No, dude, you claim that there were. So give us an example. Who?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm telling you that we have the scripture, right?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care about that. You said that we have this book

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

so they obviously passed it down.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Who Name somebody the second.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What if someone. What if someone was adopted and they never met their dad?

[Jay Dyer]

You're not going to answer because you have a dad.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

And they're like, well, how do you

[Jay Dyer]

know in the second century?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, you may never met my dad. Doesn't mean I can't know that I had a dad. And in the same way. But you don't because I don't know which guys were the ones passing down the scriptures.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It does not prove that it didn't happen.

[Jay Dyer]

No, it does because you don't know

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

we actually have this canon.

[Jay Dyer]

The fact that so Mormons have their canon. Mormons have their.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I think therefore I am. You just don't understand this axiom, what

[Jay Dyer]

does that have to do with this argument? You're an idiot.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The canon exists. They obviously passed it down. You have no idea.

[Jay Dyer]

How does that is the cannon pass

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

down without your cannon canon?

[Jay Dyer]

The cannon passed it down. This guy is so stupid. He thinks the canon is a thing that passes itself down.

[Dr. James Coons]

Alien says for Jonathan, if the words of the Bible are God, then can I worship any passage or word in the Bible as God? Can I prostrate before any verse slash word like the quote unquote? Because it's in God's word and God.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, I don't believe in like kneeling down before a Bible or anything like that. Don't. Don't hear me wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

But it's the word, right?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It. But at the end of the day I do think we should elevate and worship the. The what the scriptures teach.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I worship the sentences. Don't worship the sentences.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

But obviously that's a word of God. I've never. There's show there's one Protestant in the.

[Jay Dyer]

There's a difference.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That is somewhere and bowed down to it.

[Jay Dyer]

Is there a difference?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Then show me one person's ever done that.

[Jay Dyer]

Is this the word of God?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

Can I worship the sentences?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

How? How? The Bible tells us to go into our closet and get on our knees and pray to God and. And which is in heaven.

[Jay Dyer]

You said the Bible is the thing that we could worship then, right?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, we don't worship paper. We don't worship. We don't worship leather. Leather. But you know what? We sing the word of God and we, we elevate that in our hearts and our minds. And you can get on your knees and you can pray.

[Jay Dyer]

So I can worship the sentence. Sure. So I can worship the synthesis.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You just mock the Bible. You just hate the word of God, Jesus.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm mocking you because you're an idiot.

[Dr. James Coons]

Gotta go to the next one. Publius says, aren't there over 300 versions of the Baptist church? Why is your version correct?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

There's no such. 300 versions is a total over the top ridiculous statement. But at the end of the day, it doesn't matter how many versions or flavors there are. There's versions and flavors of the Orthodox and Catholic and whatever is it? Oh, we have less versions. So therefore we're right. We have less schism. I mean the Muslims only have two big branches, Sunni and Shiite. Are they now Right, because they only have two.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, can you. Can you. Can you give them multiple versions now

[Dr. James Coons]

that we can't do a rebuttal? We've got to keep going.

[Jay Dyer]

Orthodox church. How many examples?

[Dr. James Coons]

Says Jonathan. Just portraying all the heresies tonight.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[Dr. James Coons]

My guess is you disagree. JD says for John, what criteria do you use to determine when Scripture is speaking and when it is not? To appeal to consistency and harmony to other Scripture is fallacious.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Again, I believe the 66 books are all scripture.

[Dr. James Coons]

Gavin Lother says Jonathan, the answer is Carthage Trullo and the 8th Ecumenical Council. That's where the canon is compiled. Good job, Jason.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct. Exactly.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from Serena Wieb. Bible quote unquote is short for bibliography because it is the bibliography of Christ. It isn't Christ himself, it's about him.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Dr. James Coons]

Malcolm Trent says, Pastor Jonathan, you were very mean this evening. Do you think your audience.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I think it was pretty even on. On insults. But I would say he insulted me more.

[Dr. James Coons]

They might be trolling you, Jonathan.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It doesn't bother me.

[Dr. James Coons]

Think your attitude reflects positively on Christianity.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I'm sorry I missed your question.

[Dr. James Coons]

Bobby C says for Jonathan, what language did the scripture exist Exist in throughout all eternity?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's a good question. I don't know the answer to that

[Dr. James Coons]

line of Judah 56.

[Jay Dyer]

Doesn't that show you. That's a stupid position.

[Dr. James Coons]

Talks in scripture. It's identical to the second person of the Trinity.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, it's ebonics. The eternal version of the Scriptures is Ebonics.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

That's blasphemous.

[Dr. James Coons]

Judah 6:56 says Jonathan, do you believe when Satan talks in scripture it's identical to the second person of the Trinity?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What's recorded in scripture is true in the Bible Records true statements about people that lied. So obviously the Bible contains people lying in the Bible. But no, it's. It's.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a silly Satan speaking from all eternity. Hold on.

[Dr. James Coons]

We got it. We got a chance to finish.

[Jay Dyer]

Shame again.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Obviously there's human authors in the Bible. They're not divine. I believe all these words are from eternity past. Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

So Satan was speaking in all eternity?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, he wasn't speaking physically. But this. He was captured. What he would say.

[Jay Dyer]

Say he was captured. What he would say it was captured. So you're. So you're. So you believe in predestination?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

The Bible used the word Amen.

[Jay Dyer]

I thought you said you believed in free will.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You can be predestined according to the foreknowledge of God. How is Jesus Christ the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world?

[Dr. James Coons]

Tony the Baptist says is the Orthodox really calling Pastor Shelley a Jewish Muslim?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yes.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from one true iceman. Says Jay out here calling people stupid. Lm ao all of his detractors are going to clip it and say you shouldn't become orthodox because he's being mean.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care. The church fathers call heretics stupid all the time. I don't care.

[Dr. James Coons]

Alien says it's not a good reason.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I agree.

[Dr. James Coons]

For Jonathan, if the words of the Bible are God himself, then does the inclusion of the Old and New Testament texts in the Quran or Book of Mormon mean their books are. Are maybe half God or a quarter God?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, they're not scripture at all.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from do appreciate it Victor. For Jonathan. Why should I trust in any of the Protestant church's interpretation of scripture rather than that of the church fathers, some of which were disciples of the apostles themselves.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't think you should put your trust in any man. The Bible says you shouldn't even trust in yourself. The Bible says to trust in the Lord with all thine heart and lean not on thine own understanding. In all their ways acknowledge him them. How could you trust in something other than yourself if you didn't actually have the scriptures to trust?

[Jay Dyer]

You're trusting in your own subjective determination that your opinion of what? No. You. You. No. I have multiple authorities and centuries behind me. You have your own subjective judgment.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Why 66 Books to Trust in which

[Jay Dyer]

God told you in your inner burning bosom Muslim argument is the true canon.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You just say trust me bro.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't argue that at all. So that's a straw man. Yeah.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah. Just a tradition history, bro.

[Dr. James Coons]

Cyan says I can line up 10 Protestants and all 10 will have their own interpretation of scripture, all believing theirs is guided by the Holy Spirit. It's nonsensical.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah, because orthodox never disagree with each other.

[Dr. James Coons]

Dookie monster says a fallacy. Dookie monster has spoken. Protestants argue Jesus is the Bible when he never said he was. But the Eucharist is not Christ even though he says it is is

[Jay Dyer]

exactly.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

Yeah. Jesus is obviously not turning in a cracker. Is not turning into a physical person that people are eating. It's not cannibalism.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from.

[Jay Dyer]

But Jesus is a book.

[Dr. James Coons]

This one from you. Jesus says Pastor John. Are you playing dumb?

[Jay Dyer]

You think Satan spoke from all eternity, you idiot.

[Dr. James Coons]

You have to go to the next one says Pastor John. Are you playing dumb about not being able to see the Muslim parallel in your position?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, he is.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

He's. He's accusing me of being a Muslim in the. In the context of understanding that Jesus Christ is the word of God from Eternity past. So no, in that particular context it was a fallacy and it was. It was a attack.

[Jay Dyer]

No, the argument wasn't even true.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

It's just a lying slander. The argument is the actual context.

[Jay Dyer]

It's Your argument about the text being eternal is identical to the Muslim argument about the Quran being eternal.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

You said you were bringing up Jesus too.

[Dr. James Coons]

Spire says this is why no one takes J. Dyer seriously. Pure anger and ad hominem is not a serious guy. This one from him.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

No, him being mean.

[Jay Dyer]

That's why we had 20,000 people convert to orthodoxy last Pasca.

[Dr. James Coons]

Henry Sanchez says John quote, Jay, give me one example unquote. Jay answers. Then John says yeah, not that that one exactly guesses. You disagree, Jonathan?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I don't know exactly. Give me example of that.

[Dr. James Coons]

Miyazaki says lmao. I think this is something the young people say. Paul isn't is fallible and Jonathan isn't wtf?

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I've never said I was infallible.

[Jay Dyer]

You said that the canon is what God told you in your inner voice. And then you said it's. Then you said theoretically yes you did. Yes you did. What do you mean false? Now you're lying. You said the canon was what the inner testimony was to you. That God told you.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

I said that I can hear the divine voice through the leading Holy Spirit.

[Jay Dyer]

So now you're lying because that's what you said. So thank you for contradicting what they

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

speak to me audibly. I already said that. You didn't speak to me audibly.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't say anything about audible. It's the inner voice or inner testimony.

[Pastor Jonathan Shelley]

What's the inner voice?

[Jay Dyer]

You'd say.