FREMASONS vs JAY DYER DEBATE REVIEW Pt 1

Summary

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Jay'sAnalysis – FREMASONS vs JAY DYER DEBATE REVIEW Pt 1

Date: May 3, 2026
Host: Jay Dyer
Guests: Tristan Haggard, John Kiriaku, others
Main Theme: A deep-dive, comedic, and rigorous review of Jay Dyer’s recent live debate with Freemasons, examining the philosophy, theology, and history of Freemasonry—especially in relation to Christianity, with broad reflections on Internet conspiracy culture, Alex Jones' career, and orthodoxy.

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Episode Overview

Jay Dyer, accompanied by recurring guests, recaps, analyzes, and lampoons his debate on the compatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity. The episode weaves thick banter, insightful critique, personal anecdotes, and live audio samples from the debate, all rendered in Jay’s signature blend of cultural commentary and zany comedic edge. The discussion ranges from the technical problems of live streaming, milestones in conspiracy media history (especially the rise of Alex Jones and InfoWars), to granular philosophical disputes about Masonry, dogma, authority, and the evolution of alternative media.

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Major Topics & Segments

1. Banter & Introduction (02:38–06:54)

• Lighthearted banter: Jay, Tristan, and others joke about online personas, Internet culture, and signal their intent to discuss the “history of the Infowar”—alluding both to Alex Jones and broader information wars.
• Technical difficulties: Ongoing Internet/streaming issues are humorously blamed on “Noriega-level” connections and the ghosts of early 2000s SoCal.
• Key Quote:

  "What's up, all you haters? What's up, all you players? What's up, all of you? Presently in the progress of D transitioning and transitionings, we're happy to have beautiful Tristana with us..."
  — Jay Dyer (02:38)

2. Is Politics Worth Engaging? (05:16–07:52)

• Politics as a Waste of Time:
  Tristan Haggard believes most politics is manufactured division, only local action (e.g. knowing your sheriff) has real impact.

  "I think a lot of us have just been so sick of this fake left right stuff for so long... the issues that get thrown around... are almost just like red herring issues."
  — Tristan Haggard (05:33)

• Politics as Red Herrings: Jay agrees; both see manipulation and engineering of cultural divisions.

3. Nostalgia, Infowars, and Alex Jones’ Influence (17:43–35:11)

• Alex Jones Retrospective:
  • Guests share when they first heard Alex Jones (mid-2000s, “Skull and Bones” election era).
  • Early media: listening on Winamp, documentary sharing via early YouTube, emails, MySpace.
• Classic Media Moments:
  • Discussion of Alex’s cable-access days, movies (“Waking Life,” “Scanner Darkly”) and run-ins with celebrities (Charlie Sheen era, David Lynch, Gary Busey).
  • The “FEMA Underwear” viral clip discussed and replayed.
  • Jay highlights Jones’s role in popularizing radical critiques, alternative health, and anti-establishment positions ("Alex actually introduced me to the whole... idea of organic food," 64:52).
• Notable Quote:

  "Back when you heard somebody talking like that in 2004 and 5, that was kind of a snap out of a wake up call for guys our age."
  — John Kiriaku (21:56)

4. The Shift and Suppression of Infowars (60:14–66:34)

• Timeline of how Jones, after opposing Bush and Obama, was pigeonholed, platformed, then ultimately deplatformed (2018 show trial/lawfare era).
• Guests recall the libertarian, “crunchy” anti-war origins of Jones’s audience, in contrast to his later “right-wing” branding.
• Key Moment: Jay and guests reflect on the coordinated purge from social media platforms, with listeners burning and passing out InfoWars DVDs when Jones was blacklisted.

5. Deep Dive: Freemasonry Debate & Philosophical Critique (104:44–158:57)

[Main Event: Play-by-Play Review of Jay’s Debate with Two Freemasons]

a. Debate Set-up & Opening Statements (111:41–112:51)

• Jay asserts Freemasonry is incompatible with Christianity—across Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestant lines—because its underlying philosophy is deistic, syncretist, and (in his view) “Gnostic.”
• The Masons argue the fraternity is a non-dogmatic, philosophical system (not a religion), requiring only belief in a “Supreme Being.”

b. The Dogma Debate (117:37–141:48)

• Jay uses presuppositional apologetics to show:
  • Freemasonry, by requiring belief in a Supreme Being, already enforces a dogma.
  • Hierarchies like the “Grand Lodge” are authorities, despite claims of non-authoritarian structure.
• Circularity & Authority:
  Jay and the Masons spar over the meaning of “dogma,” “authority,” and semantics, with Jay tenaciously pointing out their shifting positions:

  “Is it dogmatic that there's no dogma in Masonry?”
  — Jay Dyer (133:52)

• Notable Exchange:

  "There's no apostle, there's no authorities, is what you said." – Jay
  "Yeah, I said no one man is... Well, apostle is plural, and then authorities is plural." – Mason
  (137:14)

c. The "Supreme Being" Exclusion Problem (142:47–151:41)

• Jay interrogates what qualifies as belief in a “Supreme Being”: “If I believe in Satan as my god, can I join?”
• The Masons concede: No atheists, no Satanists; the requirements are less “open” than claimed.
• Jay presses that this reveals further theological dogmas and moral criteria.

d. Relativism & Subjectivism, Protestant Parallels (154:10–158:44)

• Jay identifies Masonry as ultimately subjectivist: while claiming inclusiveness of faith, it reduces all truth to personal determination (“that’s satanic in principle”).
• Guests connect this relativism to Protestant Reformation logic, Enlightenment, and the philosophical collapse into postmodernism.

e. Debate Style & Concluding Banter

• Jay and guests critique the Masons’ rhetorical moves as evasive, semantic, or based in emotional appeals/testimony.
• The technical, philosophical debate is interwoven with the hilarious ongoing reactions and playful self-deprecation.

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Notable Quotes (with Timestamps)

• Jay Dyer (02:38):
  "What's up, all you haters? What's up, all you players? What's up, all of you?"

• Tristan Haggard (05:33):
  "I think a lot of us have just been so sick of this fake left right stuff for so long... the issues that get thrown around... are almost just like red herring issues."

• John Kiriaku (21:56):
  "Back when you heard somebody talking like that in 2004 and 5, that was kind of a snap out of a wake up call for guys our age."

• Jay Dyer (133:52):
  "Is it dogmatic that there's no dogma in Masonry?"

• Tristan Haggard (145:18):
  "How the vehicle for the, the enshrining of all these Enlightenment principles in the world was largely Freemasonry... Protestantism itself is, is just this pads Freemasonry in so many ways."

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Key Takeaways & Analysis

• Freemasonry’s Claims vs. Practice:
  The debate exposed major contradictions between Masons’ denial of dogma/authority and their actual requirements—belief in a “Supreme Being,” lodge authority structure, moral vetting, etc.
• Jay’s Presuppositional Attack:
  Jay utilized the “is it dogma that there is no dogma?” paradox, forcing Masons to admit to philosophical and religious presuppositions that undermine their claims to openness and neutrality.
• Meta-Critique of Protestant/Enlightenment Roots:
  Both Masonry and modern Protestantism are critiqued as sources of hyper-individualism, relativism, and the erosion of objective truth—a theme repeated throughout.
• InfoWars as Meta-Narrative:
  The shifts in Alex Jones’ career—from anti-establishment to right-wing bellwether and eventual censorship—mirror the broader fate of alternative media under increasing establishment pressure.

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Memorable Moments

• FEMA Underwear and South American Statues (25:28–27:42):
  Jay and Tristan riff on legendary Alex Jones moments, including his meltdown over "6XL underwear."
• Personal Testimony in Debate (127:37):
  Jay lampoons the Masons’ "Baptist church" style, opening with feelings and personal stories rather than argument.
• Jay’s Analysis of His Own Tactics (151:41):
  Jay pauses the playback to meta-critique how his examples (Satanists, higher-power definitions) demonstrate the irreducible dogmas at the heart of Masonry.
• Allegiance vs. Initiation (146:21):
  The analogy between saying the Pledge of Allegiance ("one nation under God") and joining a religious initiation like Freemasonry is deftly handled and used to clarify categories.

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Final Segment: Orthodoxy, Debates, and the State of Christianity (75:48–100:59)

• Jay and guests pivot to Christian orthodoxy, online “church wars,” and critique the performative, ecumenical, and often contradictory stances of online Protestant and Catholic personalities.
• There's commentary (with callers) on the difficulty of maintaining consistent theological identity in modern online Christian discussions.
• Banter on whether Orthodox Christians should continue to debate other denominations; Jay maintains debate is fruitful, citing growth statistics.

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Closing Remarks

This episode offers a dense, funny, high-energy, and philosophically intricate review of both Jay’s debate with Freemasons and the history/culture of InfoWars-style media. Jay’s presuppositional critique is the through-line, exposing the hidden dogmas within supposed “neutral” institutions both secular and religious. The show’s mix of sharp analysis and wild banter makes it accessible to both committed listeners and newcomers seeking a window into the current alternative Christian/conspiracy landscape.

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For Further Listening/Watching:

• Jay Dyer on YouTube
• Tristan Haggard’s Channel
• [InfoWars Archives] (searchable via alt platforms and private archives)

Debate Discussed:
"Freemasonry: Compatible with Christianity?" featuring Jay Dyer vs. Freemasons Chase Geyser & Ryan Turbeval—now available via Jay’s platforms for in-depth viewing.

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Transcript

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[Tristan Haggard]

Fantastic.

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[Tristan Haggard]

Foreign.

[Jay Dyer]

What's up, all you haters? What's up, all you players? What's up, all of you? Presently in the progress of D transitioning and transitionings, we're happy to have beautiful Tristana with us of the Tristan Haggard Channel. Tristan, how you doing, dog? You over there doing that Mudra? He's straight Mudra ing. Yo, what's up, Jay?

[Tristan Haggard]

What's up, Jay? What's up, player?

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

We could just come in. When a black queen dms me and says it's time Jay summoned me, He. He does a J. J sends up. There's like a, you know, the Batman spotlight. He just shines his Batman spotlight up in the hills where my mud hut is. And it's got. It's got a black hand with some. With some nails, but with the, you know, the black hand with the fingernails there. A black queen hand emoji that lights up the sky and that means it's time.

[Jay Dyer]

And a how. Like,

[Tristan Haggard]

yeah, with the how.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, my gosh. I can't. I can't take it already. This man getting to me. About to start crying already. Guys, welcome. J.

[Tristan Haggard]

Getting all choked up.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm getting to get a little choked over here. Making me vmp, guys. You know, our favorite friend Tristana is all about that Internet game. And he's back, and we're going to be talking about the history of the infowar. He's got clips. He's got tons of reels. You guys know Tristan is the man that sends the reels and we're also going to open it up to debates, challenges, comments, questions, things that you guys want to discuss. Because I know a lot of. There's a lot of people want to come defeat us. They want to refute us. There's pagans. The pagans have been activated. They're all over, everywhere. Just out of coming out of the woodworks, we got Owen Schroyer coming over here saying that he is sick of politics. It's a waste of time. A lot of people are coming to the conclusions that we came to a while back. And part of that has to do with your age. I think as you get older, you realize that politics is kind of dumb. I mean, you know, you can be into it, but also you're probably not going to affect much. It's probably a lot of waste of time. Before we get into Alex and the whole, you know, last 26, seven years of Infowars and the. The end of infowars. Tristan, what is your general assessment of politics? Is it a waste of time? And then tell me about your original exposure to Lord Alex Jones.

[Tristan Haggard]

Oh, man.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

Yeah, that's a, that's, that's like a big door opener question, right? I mean, that's, that's, that's. It's a hard one to answer in a sound clip, but yeah, I'll try to, I'll try to keep it brief. I'll try not to ramble here like a. Like a black queen.

[Jay Dyer]

You can ramble like a queen. That's what this channel for, son.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

All right, all right. So, I mean, gen generally, I think politics is a waste of time. I think, you know, local stuff can be, you know, I mean, who your sheriff is and the U. S. Who your sheriff is probably matters a lot more to you than the results you're going to see under, you know, various different presidential regimes. Now I think, I think a lot of us have just been so sick of this fake left right stuff for so long. Just so many of the, so many of the issues that get thrown around at least in kind of mainstream discourse are almost just like red herring issues. You know, they. They get people arguing over nonsense. But there's, you know, clearly there's things that are important, you know, like, I mean, the normalization of, you know, ending children and then they're in the womb. You know, the, the issues that have become at the forefront of at least culture war dialogue, if those are framed. And I think this, this is all maybe part of the social engineering of the whole culture war thing. Those are highly charged.

[Jay Dyer]

Every now and then we will experience frozen Tristana. Don't worry. I'm sure his Highness will be back. Everybody relax. Are you there? You froze for me. Beautiful Tristan, please come back again. We miss you so much. Beautiful Tristan. Where are you on the stream now? There's like three Tristanas here. Beautiful Tristan, please come back. All right, you're back now. Go ahead.

[Tristan Haggard]

All right.

[Jay Dyer]

Then he froze again. This is not my fault. This is the. The Internet that Manuel Noriega has down there in that country where he's at. It's. It's Noriega level Internet here. He's still running.

[John Kiriaku]

They do not want to get his information out. That's what's going on, folks.

[Jay Dyer]

Unbelievable. This is unbelievable. He's just frozen, man. He's like, you know, this is. This is metaphorical. Tristan is frozen in another decade, right? This guy's straight out of the early 2000s. He's so early 2000s SoCal that, you know, I'm not surprised that we're having these issues. We had no issues with John Kuryaku. I think we did a whole two hour interview with. Amazingly, no freezing on collab cam. I might have to create a zoom link and just put them up here with zoom. I think we will do that because I could do that, but then we won't be able to play the clips. Or could I add a second window capture source? We'll do that. If Tristan can't get in here, I'll send him a zoom link and then maybe we will. Let me just go ahead and try that. Let me try a different source, add a window capture. I don't know if you can do. Can we do two window captures on one stream? I'm not sure you can do that. Sometimes this. I don't. I don't know if this will work or not. Yeah, it looks like collab cam is probably not going to work for him. So let's try zoom link. Give me just one second, guys. I'm going to send a zoom link here to Tristana. Okay, starting zoom. And then let me send this to him. It's weird because with collabcam, if the

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[Ryan Turbeval]

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[Chase Geyser]

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[Jay Dyer]

It's like a toss up. It's like half the time it works, half time it doesn't work. You never know exactly whether it's going to work or not. So here we go. He said that his stream labs on his side is just crashing. Okay, well, there's the. The zoom link. Tristan, if you want to hop in there and then let me pull you up on Zoom. Hope you all are enjoying this boring tech replacement here. All right, let's bring him in here. All right, can you hear me now? Can you hear me now?

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

Yeah, Jay, sorry, I just had to mute.

[Tristan Haggard]

I had to meet you on YouTube. I was just listening you on YouTube.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, when. When I play the clip, you'll have to mute and listen to it on YouTube.

[Tristan Haggard]

Sure. Oh, that's going to be like a big delay too.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Oh, is it? Crap. Are you able to.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

I think you're probably able to do the same way that you were able to send the video to streamlabs. Can't you send it to Zoom? I mean, maybe if you make it

[Tristan Haggard]

a new, I don't know, cam.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

If you just start another collab cam, we got another collab cam link. Maybe we could do with that. It was working for a while and then it just tripped out and said that the stream didn't exist. I don't understand. Maybe it's because if you. If you weren't streaming from that, it times out or something.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I'll send you one here. You can try that.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

It said stream not found.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm sending a new. A new link here.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, I know what happened. I know what it was. The original. It might be because the original stream, for some reason, it automatically starts streaming when I turn on restream and then I shut down that original stream that auto streamed and that might have been wide ended that.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

Yeah, that's what it seemed like. It just cut off. And then every time I tried to join, it started freaking out and then it told me it doesn't exist.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, draw that collab camera there.

[Tristan Haggard]

Cool.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

All right, let me hang up on Zoom here.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, how about now?

[John Kiriaku]

Good.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, so let's get back to it. You were saying you politics useful at local level. And then I want to ask you about Alex.

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

Yeah, for sure. Useful at a local level. And you know, every. I think a lot of us are kind of sick of the cycle of even. They even do this with midterms, right? Every election.

[Jay Dyer]

Hey, babe, this is the most important

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

election of our lives. This is the most important election of our lives. The opposing party is going to put you in gulags there. You know, it's all over. If the opposing party gets in, your entire life is over. It's just literal hell is going to break loose from the, you know, from the Mariana Trench and just burst out of the ocean and swallow us whole. Every election is kind of marketed with that direness. It. It gets old. And once you've gone through a few cycles of this, and I mean, back in, what, like 2009 with the whole Ron Paul thing, seeing what the Republican Party did to, you know, a candidate, it really didn't fit the mold of, you know, the neocons and what they were trying to do in their project at the time, seeing how they essentially sidelined him. I think a lot of the people who are like die hard Dems, you know, a lot of leftists, the same disheartening.

[Jay Dyer]

Tristan, you might have to just call in on. On X. I think that's the only way to do it because I. I think that I don't really, honestly don't think it's the problem of. Collab cam, because I did it for two hours. Fine with Kiriaku. So, Tristan, you want to call in on X and then we'll just do it that way. You might have to watch the clips on. On YouTube. John, did you want to say anything while you're here?

[John Kiriaku]

Well, I think you and I probably started listening to Infowars in a similar time period. You probably. I think you started listening before I did.

[Jay Dyer]

When did you first hear Alex? Do you remember?

[John Kiriaku]

Like, end of 2004 or 5? So, like, like right after the Carrie Bush election. I think the Kerry Bush election kind of snapped me out of my paleo conservative mindset.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that was when they were talking at the time about Skull and Bones. Remember Meet the Press? And they had. That guy was. Oh, really? That. You saw that?

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, I actually saw Jones on C Span. There's a clip of him on C Span where he's. He goes up to the guy and he. He says something like. The guy says, oh, we want to have some other voices included in here. And he goes up to Jones and Jones says, look, both candidates are Skull and Bones.

[Jay Dyer]

They're.

[John Kiriaku]

They're cousins. And I'd never even heard something like that before.

[Jay Dyer]

That was early on, too. That would probably be what, 2004? Five somewhere in there.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, yeah, that was. That was around. It would have been around November of. Or probably after November that I saw. I saw it after the election. So it would have been after November 2004.

[Jay Dyer]

Let me play this.

[John Kiriaku]

Election happened, and somebody sent me that clip. Back in the day, somebody emailed me the clip. Remember when we used to have to email clips?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I do remember that. Remember when boomers would send email chains and they believed in some sort of curse, like, if you don't resend this email, you'll. You'll be cursed. It was like you.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, something bad's gonna happen to you.

[Jay Dyer]

It's like a Jane letter. What's that movie with Naomi Watts where it's like a curse? VHS tape, but it's boomers with emails. The Ring. Ringu. That's it. Remember Ringu?

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, I used to have to listen to InfoWars on. On the WIN amp.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, yeah, it was like a MP3 player. Winamp. MP3. I remember that. Yeah.

[John Kiriaku]

And he. He'd have a. He'd have the. The show streaming on the winamp. And I remember I would go in and I'd go into work every day and just listen to like the live stream on the WIN amp. And I would just stream the radio show all day long.

[Jay Dyer]

Tristan, where you at? Come on in here. You'll have to come in on X. Tristana, where you at? All right, I'll play a little bit of this and we'll react to it while we're waiting for him to come in here.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

How fake it all is. The football, the basketball, the. The Lady Gaga, the Justin Bieber, you know, who gives you these carbon tax messages. They tell your kids they gotta love Justin Bieber. And then BER says, hand in your guns, pass the Cyber Security act. And the police state's good. And then your children are turned into mindless vassals who now they look up to some twit instead of looking up to Thomas Jefferson or looking up to Nikola Tesla or looking up to Magellan. I mean, kids, Magellan's a lot cooler than Justin Bieber. He circumnavigated with one ship the entire planet. He was killed by wild natoes before they got back to Portugal. And when they got back, there was only like 11 people alive of the 200 Something crew. And the entire ship was rotting down to the water line. That's destiny. That's will. That's striving. That's being a.

[Jay Dyer]

That's Destiny's child son. I want to see Alex Jones underwear clip. That's one of the best.

[John Kiriaku]

No, I, I always had a lot of issues with Jones over the years. But I will say this. Back when you heard somebody talking like that in 2004 and 5, that was kind of a snap out of a wake up call for like guys our age.

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[John Kiriaku]

Because we were, we were so inundated with the, you know, with the Al Bundes and the, you know, loser TV person personality.

[Tristan Haggard]

Dab.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I mean there's a little bit of like carnival barker and Baptist preacher in Alex Jones too. So it's an interesting mix and it's a good mix for I guess, mobilizing people, mobilizing audiences and wwf. Yeah, like, you mean like the talking scenes that they, that the WWF would do?

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, the interviews,

[Jay Dyer]

Guys, who would it like and share. We're going to try to bring Tristana on here onto the X space. That FEMA underwear clip used to come up all the time and now it's. Of course it's, it's always hard to find these things. Let me see if I can find it elsewhere. Tristan, you want to just join on here? Tristan, you want to unmute?

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

What's up, man? How about now?

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, I mean, yeah, it's like it's a different thing. Just I'm just one of the now just a normal.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, when were you not 6x for

[Alex Jones (clip)]

the illegal aliens south of Mexico that bust up?

[John Kiriaku]

He doesn't want to talk to me on the same level. He wants to be above me.

[Jay Dyer]

That's why I found it.

[Tristan Haggard]

I'm a face Lord Man. 42, 000 look at this.

[Jay Dyer]

I found it. Relax. I found the underwear clip. Relax everyone. This is what we were all waiting for.

[Tristan Haggard]

You're not supposed to share that. Dude, don't freaking share our dms, man. What are you doing? No.

[Jay Dyer]

Alex's underwear clip.

[Tristan Haggard]

Oh, I Was. I was just making like a joke though. Right there.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Tristan Haggard]

Never mind.

[Jay Dyer]

Tristan. Tristan sends me pictures of just underwear. Just, just like hundreds a day. Just pictures of random pieces, not anybody wearing them. Just pieces of underwear. It's really weird, like cut up. I don't know, it's like a serial killer type. I don't know what it is. But look, check this out.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Pairs 6x for the illegal aliens from south of Mexico. That bus up on a train every

[Jay Dyer]

day is the ones. Tristan says you could wear this.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

I could wear this as a onesie.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

I could wear this as a leotard.

[Tristan Haggard]

I mean. I mean.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh my God.

[Tristan Haggard]

Oh my God.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

We're being invaded by South American walruses.

[John Kiriaku]

Ridiculous.

[Tristan Haggard]

The government is shipping in 42,000 people

[Jay Dyer]

bigger than Jabba the Hut. This country is so screwed up, man.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh, but it's reaching a proportion.

[Jay Dyer]

If you're a radio.

[Tristan Haggard]

Listen. You can't see them. Oh my God, look at this.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't think I've ever laughed this hard on air.

[Tristan Haggard]

Oh my God.

[Jay Dyer]

It's so ridiculous. That was when he found out that FEMA. I spit my coffee out. FEMA had ordered 6XL underwear for some of the illegal immigrants that were coming up here. And he just lost it. Cuz he grabbed a pair of. He grabbed a pair.

[Tristan Haggard]

That's the average size underwear of the average Peruvian woman.

[Jay Dyer]

That's what I was gonna say. They're coming from down there. Where you are. Are those large bodied ladies down there?

[Tristan Haggard]

The ladies, the coastal fence. Some coastal females where they. Well fed. Corn fed. It was corn fed South American tortas.

[Jay Dyer]

Are there seriously like large ladies down there like that?

[Tristan Haggard]

Do you think it's. There's something about like the kind of indigenous genes that. Yeah, they get big. I mean you even look at their old. It's not even just a modern diet thing because you look at their statues. They have these old weird like these mopiche statues and stuff of. There's like these weird Kama sutras, like sexual statues. And they're all like fat ladies, dude.

[John Kiriaku]

They love the.

[Jay Dyer]

They like some shapes. They like a lot of shapes going on down there. Guys, remember support the stream. Tristan is with me today. If you guys want a support. Tristan's YouTube channel is linked in the show description. So guys, remember, it's in the show. You can't for whatever reason. Oh crap. Well, that's right. I won't be showing that on screen. So you could try to join the collab cam. But it ain't gonna work, so. Because I'm gonna generate a new link. So there you go. I always end up doing that share the collab cam link in the chat.

[Tristan Haggard]

I don't remember that. We always freaked out that one time.

[Jay Dyer]

I know. I did it again.

[Tristan Haggard]

I was waiting for somebody to, like, do something really gross or something, but it was. Yeah, they're all really polite. And then we realized that you put it in the chat.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, I changed the. The link, so it ain't gonna work now.

[John Kiriaku]

So are you trying to get me

[Tristan Haggard]

on collab cam again?

[Jay Dyer]

No problem with it?

[Tristan Haggard]

No. Why wasn't it working?

[Jay Dyer]

It has to be your Internet. Because it worked fine with John Kiriaku for two hours. So it's you, dude, I blame you.

[Tristan Haggard]

My Internet is solid, man. I could check my connection. Anyways, it doesn't matter.

[Jay Dyer]

Maybe streamlabs likes John Kuryaku and not. You never think of that. So people ask me about. Hold on. Oh, Alex again. So, Tristan, what was your first exposure to Alex Jones? When did you first see him? What did you think when you saw the first thing you saw? And this was. You were what? So you were soaked.

[John Kiriaku]

Huh?

[Tristan Haggard]

Remember Waking Life? It was like 2001, that film came out.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you saw that? You saw him in that?

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, he was in Waking Life, the Linklater movie. It's not like a great movie or anything, but we liked it in high school. It was a fun kind of, you know, stoner movie in high school. And 2003 was when I saw that. 2003 or four. So one of my friends really liked that movie. So I watched Waking Life. And you remember his part in Waking.

[Jay Dyer]

He's driving around in a. Yeah, he's doing. He's doing his classic bullhorn stuff.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, yeah. He's. He's basically just screaming Twitter post out of his bullhorn on the streets of Austin. And it's this really funny clip. And he's. You know, he's like the fake left, right divide. And he's just getting all heated. And he seems. He feels. He has this pentecostal street preacher pissed off kind of.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Tristan Haggard]

Political vibe to the character there. And that was the first I'd ever seen him. I didn't put the pieces together until around, like, 2000. I think it was 2006 or 2007.

[Jay Dyer]

He's driving around in a Ghostbusters. It looks like the ecto one. Here it is right here.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Of enemy propaganda rolling across the picket line. Lay down, Jim.

[Jay Dyer]

G.I.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

lay down, G.I. we saw it all through the 20th century. And now in the 21st century, it's time to stand up and realize that we should not allow ourselves to be crammed into this rat maze.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I won't play the whole clip because it'll ding the algorithm. But yeah, there's Alex and Linklater's waking life. And he was also in Scanner Darkly. He basically did the exact same thing where he did like a two minute sort of bullhorn thing and then he gets taken away by the dystopian police. Do you remember that?

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, the secret police kind of snatch him up. They throw in a van. Yeah. So that, that was the first time I'd ever seen him. But then, you know, I didn't know who it was. I didn't, you know, look at the credits to try to figure out who this guy was. I knew that a lot of the people that were in Waking Life, it's kind of. It's a lot of vignettes, Waking Life, and some of them are slam poets and some of them are just. There's, there's a bunch of characters that are.

[Jay Dyer]

There's like philosophy professors talking about quantum physics and then there's a guy who talks about Philip K. Dick and his gnostic views.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah.

[Tristan Haggard]

And that's actually Link later himself that does. That's at the end where he talks about.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, I didn't know that.

[Tristan Haggard]

Says that we're still in. I don't know, he says like the year is still 70 AD.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct. Yeah. He's got a weird preterist, weird theory

[Tristan Haggard]

that Dick had a. At a point in his career. So I, I really like that movie in high school. I don't like it anymore. It's. It's an interesting film in some ways, but the rotoscope was new, so it's really crude kind of rotoscope animation in there. But. Yeah. Later. Heard of him? Actually, my grandma first told me about Alex Jones around 2006 or 7. Because my grandma, she was really. She passed away a few years ago when he's 16. She passed away, but she was great. We would always talk about conspiracy stuff. And she'd given me something like Michael Colin Piper's books back in the early 2000s. And she, she had read like David Ike books and stuff.

[John Kiriaku]

And she was pretty.

[Tristan Haggard]

She'd always tell me, you know, I remember the day they killed Kennedy and how the.

[John Kiriaku]

The whole world changed.

[Tristan Haggard]

They killed Kennedy. So she was into the kind of. She wasn't a boomer. She was.

[Jay Dyer]

Was your grandmother a Southern belle? She sounds like my grandmother.

[Tristan Haggard]

She Was cool, man. Yeah, she was great. She was told like Texas, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, okay, well that makes sense why she.

[Tristan Haggard]

Louisiana, Texas. Louisiana. Her family from Louisiana and Texas. She had that draw. And she would just say, oh, you know what they doing now? They're just making it hell on earth here. And it's just another day in hell.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that makes sense why she would know about Alex because this was, this was at the time when there was like a vibrant Austin, Texas. Like yes you can.

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[Jay Dyer]

Independent art house film scene. And that's where Linklater was. And so Alex was doing a lot of cable access, you know, homemade documentary type stuff back then. So that's assume. I presume that's how he kind of fell into that circle 100, 100.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, she, I think she heard him on the radio. I used to listen to coast to Coast a lot back in the day too. And she, she knew I really like coast to coast, so we would always talk about all those things. We had long phone conversations. And she was funny. She. Actually, she was. She told me that Alex was a. She's like, I, I think that Alex Jones, he's a, He's a Judas goat. I'm pretty sure he is. He's a Judas goat. Because she got, she got that term from the Michael Collins Piper book, the Judas Goats about like fake right wing movements and kind of the, the, the twisting of the patriot movement. And I guess he, he kind of, he didn't like Jones at that point when he wrote that book and he threw him in there. So she, the first thing I, I think I heard from her about Alex Jones is how she thinks he's. He's a Judas goat. I didn't know what that meant at the time. I was like, what is a Judas goat? And I realized when I, I inherited some, a lot of her books after she passed away and she had that book from Michael Collins Piper, which didn't look like it really been read. I think she, she would buy a lot of books. I don't know if she read them all. That's. That was my first, my first exposure to him. And then once the Obama Hey, Jim. Administrator popped in.

[John Kiriaku]

Ouch.

[Tristan Haggard]

Really got popular on YouTube. So that was. He had kind of mass exposure through the Obama deception Era that was really big time for him.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

I remember first seeing Alex. As I told people the other day, I was. I was actually novice ordo watch of all websites. And back when they had. Because I was getting into trad SATA stuff and they had a. A page that would cover news and they put up a clip of Alex on cable access talking about Skull and Bones and how OSS and CA would recruit out of Skull and Bones. And I never heard of what Skull and Bones was. So I went and looked that up and I saw that Anthony Sutton had a book on history of Skull and Bones. So I remember getting that very early, probably 2003 or 4. And then I noticed that, oh, he's talked to a Gary Busey. There's an old Alex Jones Gary Busey interview that few people know about. But I'll play a little bit of this.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Why can't we stop it? The bigger this war gets, the more freedoms we lose, the more Substance D is on our streets. Can't you figure this out?

[Jay Dyer]

Anyway, I can't play much of that or else it won't work. Won't work. But for some reason, Alex, like, was walking around and found Gary Busey one day in the interview. It was the craziest interview. Yeah, here it is right here.

[Tristan Haggard]

Back in the day,

[Jay Dyer]

he, dude is high as hell, bro. Or split my skull and put a

[Tristan Haggard]

hole in it that big.

[Jay Dyer]

My skull. And I had magic brain surgery. Cedar Sinai, 1:15pm Sunday afternoon, December 4, by Dr. Lauren Hooden. And he told me, if I'd been three minutes late, it wouldn't be here now. So it's all in the quickness to get the victim to the hospital. I came out of the hospital in recovery from a traumatic brain injury.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

They have the emails and the witnesses buying masses of prescription drugs, painkillers. But then we go back to his broadcast. He said, anybody that was caught with any illegal drugs.

[Jay Dyer]

I remember the Charlie Sheen phase, too, right? So there was that whole massive several years of Alex teamed up with Charlie Sheen. You remember that?

[Tristan Haggard]

That was. Yeah, I think that was kind of his peak. At least that's what I remember. Peak. Kind of infowars mania. Right when Charlie Sheen was in the middle of a crazy manic episode and he was. He was talking about tiger blood and he was talking about I'm a Jesuit assassin. And all this stuff you remember. You remember, like the Jesuit black assassins, like the anti Alex guy?

[Ryan Turbeval]

Yeah, that was all.

[Jay Dyer]

That was all from. Yeah, that was. There was two. There was a group of Seven Day Adventists that were pushing that. And there was a guy that had a website that was all about how. Because Alex Jones one time talked at a Catholic college, they said, oh, see, look, he's a Jesuit operative and an assigned a Jesuit assassin.

[Tristan Haggard]

So I think the website was.

[Jay Dyer]

It was. It was. No, it was Vatican assassins. Vatican assassins.

[Tristan Haggard]

He called him a Jesuit coadjutor. That was the term he. Everyone's a Jesuit coador. I don't even. Where did he even get that word? Was such a great word, a coad. It sounds like a mathematical term like

[John Kiriaku]

you're gonna carry the.

[Tristan Haggard]

You're gonna carry the.

[Jay Dyer]

Carry the. Carry the integer. Integer to the coad. To the coad. Look, and this is back. So I didn't realize this was. This was 2006. So this wasn't that long after that. Greg was one of them. Yeah, that's who it is. And there was that he had a website and there was a book that came out by the Seven Day Adventist that he drew from arguing that the Vatican runs the world through Jesuits and their assassination program. But I didn't realize that Alex is already talking to Charlie pretty regularly. Only three years after I first heard about not the case. And I was always amazed to see

[Tristan Haggard]

that you always had hard data to

[Jay Dyer]

back up your claims. And so, you know, this was tough for me because for the longest time I've been doing my own independent research and you know, oh, this is about Big Nine event. I remember now. Charlie wanted to fund Alex's 911 documentaries in theater. He wanted a theatrical release or he wanted to do a whole new high production value version of exposing 9 11. And that's what that was about. I remember that now.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, because that one of those interviews is in Terror Storm.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, correct. And so they were all the way. This is three years later. They're still doing.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

They were still doing stuff to this interview with Charlie.

[Jay Dyer]

Questions. These are the facts.

[Tristan Haggard]

These are the issues that found their way into my letter because.

[Jay Dyer]

So follow the Republic. Okay. That was an alex documentary from 2009 and that included a bunch of the Charlie Sheen interviews. But people also forget that way back then. Alex also, because I was listening at the time, he also interviewed David lynch and that was also questioning 911, if people remember that.

[Tristan Haggard]

Oh yeah, yeah. I remember the lynch. The lynch interview. I mean, you remember most of the eugenics film that he made. And Game Endgame was pretty influential.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh yeah,

[John Kiriaku]

I was gonna say. And the dude from Raiders of the Lost Ark.

[Tristan Haggard]

Oh yeah, Harrison Ford. He was a big.

[Jay Dyer]

Who. Wait, who? Who did he have on from John Rice Davies.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, John R. Davies.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, I forgot about that. He also had Hugo Weaving on. Do you remember that?

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah. And Ernest Borgnine, Ed Asner.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[John Kiriaku]

A bunch of the old timers.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, the. I remember one of the first times I went on 21st century wire, it was right after Ed Asner and Patrick had him on. Because I think there was a. There was a. Early on in the 2000s, there was quite a few Hollywood people that were into 911 truth. And that's of course, you know, that's a part of the reason why it was always connected to the Democratic Party was like, oh, if you're into 911 truth, it's because you're a Democrat and you're against the Bushes and all that. So it was always ferreted into party politics, even though it was like a joint, you know, neocon Democrat operation. It wasn't like one party. But, yeah, this. The context of this whole interview was questioning 9 11.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

And it's getting obviously rave reviews. I've got several here. New York Times, Austin American Statesman in front of me. I mean, for those that. I mean to give them some handle. What's the basics with Inland Empire?

[Tristan Haggard]

Well, you know, Alex, bless your heart, man. It's a story of a woman in trouble and, and.

[Jay Dyer]

And that's it.

[John Kiriaku]

You know, I always think I don't like to know too much about a film going in.

[Tristan Haggard]

And I, I love the experience of.

[Jay Dyer]

So.

[Tristan Haggard]

Wow.

[Jay Dyer]

This was, this was when he was promoting Inland empire, which was 2006.

[Tristan Haggard]

I always love that answer that he gives there too. I mean, that's the perfect answer for a David Lynch. It's a movie. It's about a woman.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't want.

[Ryan Turbeval]

It's a woman in trouble.

[Tristan Haggard]

Most Inland Empire is unhinged. It's one of the most. That era. Such a great film.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. I wonder if that Hugo Weaving one, that's probably forgotten in the archives. I. He also interviewed Nicholas Reen too, after Drive came out, if you guys remember.

[John Kiriaku]

And. And vgo Mortenson.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, yeah, I forgot about vgo. Good point. Yeah. I don't see the Hugo Weaving one. But

[Tristan Haggard]

why. Why did Vigo go on in force?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't remember. Probably because there was a period where Alex was able to interview a lot of Hollywood people when they had a thing to promote.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah. Here he's like a guy who wants.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Go ahead, sir.

[John Kiriaku]

Horses.

[Tristan Haggard]

Hey, Alex.

[John Kiriaku]

Like wild horses.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, that was when that movie. Yeah, the horse movie came out, which that movie was not very Good. I went to see it. But no. Oh no, no. I take that back. It was about the road, right? Because they did Cormac McCarthy's the Road with you with VGO in it. That's why. Ryan Reynolds here from Mint Mobile. I don't know if you knew this, but anyone can get the same Premium Wireless for $15 a month plan that I've been enjoying. It's not just for celebrities.

[Tristan Haggard]

So do like I did and have one of your assistant's assistants switch you

[Jay Dyer]

to Mint Mobile today. I'm told it's super easy to [e-mail]

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[Ryan Turbeval]

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[Advertiser]

Really?

[Jay Dyer]

At a playground?

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[Jay Dyer]

Wow. Your search can really get that specific.

[Advertiser]

Really?

[Jay Dyer]

And you just put in your info and boom. Cars in your budget.

[Advertiser]

Mom needs a second. Honey.

[Tristan Haggard]

You can really have it delivered.

[Advertiser]

Really? Or I can pick it up at the dealership.

[Jay Dyer]

One sec, sweetie.

[Tristan Haggard]

Mommy's buying a car.

[Jay Dyer]

I think your kid is walking up the slide, Kyle.

[Advertiser]

Again, really? Auto trader. Buy your car online? Really?

[Ryan Turbeval]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Back around 2009, right when we had the Obama era, it was very dystopian and Alex was like super hyper dystopian. That's when, you know, Obama Deception came out around that time. And Alex Talked about Cormac McCarthy's the Road just all the time. He would reference it like for at least two or three years. I remember listening over and over and over and the movie is so like hard to watch. It's super.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah. If somebody's only seen the film, I would recommend forgetting it being novel. The novel is really something special. That's a really good novel.

[Jay Dyer]

I was going to ask you because I know you and you and John have read a lot more. I've only read Blood Meridian, but you guys have read a lot more. What's your thoughts on the Road?

[Tristan Haggard]

I. I mean, I think the Road is one of the most beautiful novels of the 20th century. It's. It's really sparse, simple prose and he doesn't, it's not, you know, Blood Meridian's a little bit more purple and pros, you know, Blood Meridian, he gets kind of, it's very Melville in and you know, he's influenced by, you know, with James Joyce and stuff. But he later in his career. He kind of really dug in on the Hemingway. Not thematically, but like, you know, stylistically kind of more minimalist. It's what you don't say. And he, I, I just think he, he mastered so many different types of pros. And, and the Road is something real special. So as far as like, you know, a critique of modernity, there's, you know, just. It's, it's eternally. It's themes that are very outside of space and time. And the Road inhabits this liminal space of kind of the, the sublime essentially. And it's a book that's so. It's so beautiful, actually. It's like this is what you don't get in the film. The film's bleak and dark, but actually the book, the Road is sublime and beautiful. And it's, it's that, that beauty in the pain and in the darkness is what the novel's about. It's about a father and a son. It's about death. It doesn't have to. It's. Yes, it's in this post apocalyptic kind of post, post postmodernism thing where the, the ultimate results of postmodernism have shattered. And you have this kind of. It's, it's also a critique of hyper individualism. Whereas the man who's the main character, you have the man and the boy and the man himself has a lot of these American, almost postmodern presuppositions, but they're constantly being destroyed. And he's consistently being shown in the. By the world that he inhabits, that you can't go it alone. And you know, his, his reason for living is his son. Right. And it's, you know, it's, it's also about the kind of. It's this exploration of like, of the whole. Abraham and his son.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, interesting.

[Tristan Haggard]

The sacrifice of Isaac. So it, I think it's a beautiful book. I highly recommend it. It's a really great book, one of

[John Kiriaku]

the most beautiful books.

[Tristan Haggard]

But it's, it's also. It's intense and dark, but it's an easy read and it's a fun read. And the last page of it is one of the most beautiful paragraphs ever written. Like this poem at the end of it is just one of the most beautiful things ever written.

[Jay Dyer]

I remember around that time when that came out, McCarthy was saying that there's no point in writing the great American novel anymore because no one will read it. Which is somewhat prophetic because I guess he already saw that people were going to not read as the, as the dystopia came into fruition.

[Tristan Haggard]

There's a scene in the Road where they find a library and the books are just. All the pages are molded and falling apart. And it's just like every. Everything in the Road, everything is artifact. So it's, you know, you're kind of inhabiting this post temporal space, whereas most people are looking at it as well. It's post apocalyptic and everyone's reading it, trying to forensically figure out what happened, happened, but it never tells you what happened. You don't know what happened. It doesn't matter what happened. But literature itself is obsolete there. And I think that was something he always struggled with too. Just like, you know, he obviously gave his whole life to writing, but it's, you know, one of the beautiful things in there is he kind of destroys that as well and just shows like, none of this matters. All that matters is the love between the man and the boy. And it's. It's very. There's Christological. It's very Christian themed. It's very Christmas. Oh, really? He originally was gonna the Road. The original title, the working title for it in one of his early drafts was the Grail, which he.

[John Kiriaku]

And he.

[Tristan Haggard]

He chopped a lot of that and just really brought it down and distilled it into something that was. He tried. He didn't want it to be too blatant, too allegorical. But it is. It's highly Christ is. It's a Christ haunted book. Kind of like, who was it that said, was it a Flannery?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it's Flannery South.

[Tristan Haggard]

Is Christ haunted?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly. John, go ahead.

[John Kiriaku]

That's. There's the Neil Postman. I was actually just reading this.

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[John Kiriaku]

The other week, where postman brings in the Orwellian Huxley comparison. And he says in. You know, Orwell is fearful that the government's going to get rid of books. And Huxley talks about how there. There won't even be a need to get rid of books because nobody's going to read them.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly. You won't have to have Fahrenheit 451 because people will just stop reading the books to begin with. So I remember to the first thing that I saw actually by Alex, documentary wise was not Bohemian Grove. It was actually America Destroyed by Design. Because after. Right around 20034 you had the advent of Google Video. And I remember the first documentary that I sat and watched through. It may have been Bohemian Grove, but it was also America Destroyed by Design. And people always forget this one. But this is back when he was doing local Austin stuff and he did this interview with a bunch of people about Chinese Communist Party buying up large ports in America. And that this was all tied to the United nations and sort of the rewilding program to take over a large portion of the. The. The land of the US and to appropriate it by the state to then give it over to United nations affiliated entities. And this is like I think America Destroyed by design is 1997. I mean I think that's when it came out. And then Bohemian grove was around 2000 or 2001. So maybe 99. I can't remember exactly. But this was the first documentary that Alex got a lot of traction from. Right. Because this was pretty popular. A lot of people watch this on the underground. And because Bohemian Grove was typically a neocon outfit. I mean they would invite some Democrats too, like David Gergen went. But it's usually classified as more of a kind of a neocon Kissinger style meeting. I think this probably endeared Alex to a lot of people who would have been more on the left. But I'll play a little bit of that.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Well, basically that's enough for me. It's hard to even describe it with words. And I hope that our hidden cameras can give you at least a small piece of what I witnessed. To have world leaders engaging in this type of sickening behavior. Oh yes, there's much more to come. Mock human sacrifices, they claim, just shocks the very foundations of what Americans believe their leaders to be. Ceremonies that in truth had their roots not in the Druids, but in Babylon itself. As the railroads brought commerce and larger and larger populations, the prestige of the club grew. Until in the year 2000, it is a gathering place for the world establishment, the elite.

[Jay Dyer]

So this is 2000.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Dwight D. Eisenhower, later to become President. The roster of the Bohemian Club reads like a who's who of the elite. Look at this photo taken inside the grove back in 1963. There you'll see Ronald Reagan and sitting two people over from him later to become President, Richard Milhouse Nixon. Frankly, we don't know if these men actively enjoy the things that go on inside the Bohemian club. But one thing is perfectly certain, from the evidence, they are forced to go and attend and take part in these. Illustration from the pages of Parade magazine, February 22, 1981. This story was the most accurate and revealing detailing the so called mock human sacrifice.

[Jay Dyer]

I like how he keeps saying it's so called, like it might be a real human sacrifice. But I remember this is one of the first books that I saw Alex reference all the time, right? Men in Powers by Helmut Schmidt. And I bought the book, right? I have it right up there, Men in Powers. Because I was like, is this guy for real? Is the. Would they really put this in the books? And I eventually found a copy of this and sure enough, yes, it is in there. It does talk about Bohemian Grove. So I'm not going to play any more of that. But of course, I'm sure most people have probably seen dark secrets inside Bohemian Grove from a long time ago. But I think for Alex, right, the, the, the pivotal documentary was originally Bohemian Grove. That kind of got his name out there. And then he did several Police State documentaries which were lesser known. There was like three or four of them, right? Police state, 911, Marshall Law, etc that had like three or four parts. Go ahead.

[John Kiriaku]

You know where, you know where I saw all of those? On MySpace.

[Jay Dyer]

Really? I didn't know that.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, there used to be a dude back in the day after, after I originally saw that C Span clip that was talking about Skull and bones on MySpace. There was this guy which if he's, if he's ever listening, I thank him. His name was Andrew, but he was a musician in la and he, he shared all of the Alex Jones videos on MySpace all day long. That's all he would do is just like Jones videos all day.

[Jay Dyer]

That's funny, because MySpace was always kind of immediately associated with music. But by the way, this might be what you're talking about. Let's see, here's John Kerry, many, many years ago on C Span talking about,

[Tristan Haggard]

let's see, the importance today.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Nor could he have predicted the number of Americans abroad that we help with their passports, with visas, with other problems that arise, or that we help offer to those who want to grow their families through adoption, or who find themselves in legal trouble or distress far from home, or the role our diplomats play, screening potential security threats and taking them off the radar screen before they ever reach your consciousness, potentially in the worst ways, or that we create a new American job, understanding that is already investing More than we do there. Four of the five biggest. Oil and natural gas now by our exports, terrorism.

[Jay Dyer]

You both were members of Skull and Bones, a secret society at Yale.

[John Kiriaku]

What does that tell us?

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Not much.

[Jay Dyer]

Because it's a secret.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Is there a secret handshake?

[John Kiriaku]

Is there a secret code?

[Jay Dyer]

I wish there were something secret I could manifest. 322 secret number.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

There are all kinds of secrets, Tim, but one thing is not a secret. I disagree with this president's direction.

[Jay Dyer]

Classic political deflection. One thing that's not a secret. This guy is foreign policy. This guy is economically. He asked the same thing to Bush.

[John Kiriaku]

You were both in Skull and Bones, the secret society.

[Jay Dyer]

It's so secret, we can't talk about it. What does that mean for America?

[John Kiriaku]

The conspiracy theorists are going to go.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

I'm sure they are. I don't know.

[John Kiriaku]

I haven't seen the red. Nope.

[Jay Dyer]

She's going, Bones. So, yeah, this was. This was huge back in the day, right? Like, if you were on the Internet and you were in message boards or like John was saying, you're on MySpace, you would see these clips going around and. And Alex had, like, an archive, by the way, of all these clips. If you were a Prison Planet member back in the 2000s, go, Jo.

[John Kiriaku]

The other place Jones was on that got him out there was. He was on Opie and Andy, and he talked about that, and they played the clips on it.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, Alex went Opie and Anthony. Yeah. Oh, I didn't know that. And that was before they split, back when they were. I. I never did listen to those guys, so I didn't really know their whole. Their whole thing.

[John Kiriaku]

Me neither. I just. I just remember seeing a clip of it, and I. It was not something I listened to or watched or anything, but there was a clip of him on there, and he's. He's telling them that about the Skull and Bones thing, and they're like, really? Oh, okay. And then they. They, like, looked it up and they're like, oh, crazy.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, this might be it. But that might also be old. I can't. I can't. Or more recent. No, that's probably it. So you're right, John. I think that's the original one from a long time ago anyway. But then I think, like Tristan said, the Charlie Sheen stuff definitely propelled the notoriety because Alex was right there when Charlie Sheen was having all that news attention because of the. What was he saying? Like, he'd do an eight ball every day or something crazy like that. And then he was. He was up on top of the building telling everybody that he, he was, he was drinking tiger blood.

[Tristan Haggard]

And Alex like say that he's, he's like, I'm pounding five gram rocks. Yeah, yeah, I got Tiger Blood Assassin. He was, she was out of control.

[John Kiriaku]

And, and Alex was on the View.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh yeah, that was before. Was that before even the Piers Morgan. The Piers Morgan took us because he,

[John Kiriaku]

Charlie Sheen appointed Alex to be his person and Jones went on the View and then Charlie Sheen like told him, don't even really talk about me. Just talk about Building 7.

[Jay Dyer]

Here's the tiger blood winning. I don't know man. I was banging 7 gram rocks and finishing them because that's how I roll. I have one speed, I have one gear go. Because of me.

[Moderator]

I'm different.

[Jay Dyer]

I just have a different constitution.

[Moderator]

I have a different brain. I have a different heart. I have a different, you know, I

[Jay Dyer]

get tired blood, man. I'm too sparse. And I cured my brain brain. That's epic. The run I was on made Sinatra, Flynn, Jagger, Richards, all of them just look like, you know, droopy eyed armless children. I expose people to magic. I expose them to something they're never otherwise going to see in their boring, normal lives. And I gave that to them. Dude. Built different tiger blood. I may forget about them tomorrow.

[Tristan Haggard]

Was that like 2009?

[Jay Dyer]

This clip? I don't see a date, but probably around there.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, yeah. There used to be a great YouTube channel, right. I mean Alex and In4's YouTube channels were deleted around 2019 and it's 2018 and there were just thousands of videos. Alex's channel was one of the biggest channels on YouTube in the early YouTube days. And he was, he was live streaming his show as soon as live streaming came out, which is. Was like 2015 or 16 or so. It was, it was huge. I mean he helped to build YouTube's base really. And then once they, you know, they had multiple ad apocalypses and kind of started tightening up over the years and then finally kicked them off around 2018 because he got kicked off of everything around 2018. They had that. The kind of the show trial era began and he was being, you know, sued by the, the parents.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Tristan Haggard]

And it was, they took them off Twitter like within the same week I think is.

[Jay Dyer]

It was, it was all the same few days actually because my WordPress site got deleted at the exact same day that all of Alex's stuff was removed from everywhere. So it was coordinated.

[Tristan Haggard]

And I think one of the reasons, I think when they kicked him off Twitter it was because he Yelled at like a CNN reporter. Yeah, it wasn't even on Twitter. They kicked him off of Twitter for him being mean to somebody.

[Jay Dyer]

For Oliver Darcy irl. Yeah, it was Oliver Darcy. He said he looked like a rat or a goblin or a munchkin or something. And they decided that was mean. Mean speak. So no mean speak in the new world order for sure. Yeah. So then I think the, the next phase was Obama deception because that was huge. I remember that had at one point on YouTube 30 million views. So that was like the, the next phase and that was a period when they, according to Alex, they offered him like a Fox show and all that kind of stuff. And he says he said no to that. And then the next level up was of course when Trump signed on and came on and then Infowars kind of went to like the top news site out there due to the support for MAGA and the Trump, the Trump election in 2016. So 2016 led to, as Tristan said, the 2018, like total deplatforming. And that's also when all the lawfare began. So I would like, back in the

[Tristan Haggard]

day, I really like End Game because I don't think you mentioned that.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm sorry, I forgot. End Game was, that was 2006 or

[Tristan Haggard]

5 or so that came out, but I think I saw around 2007 or maybe that's when it came out. But I, I really liked End Game and at the time for one of one of these like seminars was senior seminars in a history degree that I was getting at the time. I, I did a, I did like an academic treatment of the eugenics movement and the US Influence on the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute and vice versa. So I kind of, you know the thesis that he lays out in Endgame, I kind of essentially expanded on some of those ideas and just did an academic treatment of that. But that was, that was those fun times back in the day.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, you're right.

[Tristan Haggard]

Kind of like just, yeah, I was a pretty liberal university in California and the, actually the, the professors were all fine because these are critiques of general kind of U S. Policy at the time. And you know they're, they were fine with it. Now a lot of these ideas and Alex Jones have been, has been kind of, he's become the right wing guy. But like you said at the time, this was during the Bush administration. Right. So during the George W. Bush administration. Anybody who's pushing back against the Iraq war, anybody who's pushing back against the surveillance state, they were auto filed as leftists in kind of the media circus realm. And, you know, so you're. If you don't like tsa, you know, feeling up your. Your genitalia, you're. You're a lefty. You got to be a. You got to be a damn near them liberal, a radical left, anti war crazy person. And a lot of Alex's audience, I think, were kind of like farmer's market, kind of more like, you know, crunchy soccer moms, like, anti. Anti Mandatory pharmaceutical things put in your veins mamas and stuff like that back in the day.

[Jay Dyer]

No, Alex actually introduced me to the whole. Yeah, the whole idea of, like organic food and all that. That all came. That was all introduced to me from Alex via, you know, 2003, 4, 5, 6. That's when I first even. I didn't even know there was such a thing until I listened to that.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, yeah. You know, they want to make everything gmo.

[Jay Dyer]

They're gonna GMO your babies.

[Tristan Haggard]

It was, you know, he was connecting the idea of, you know, this kind of the eugenics age, which then became like the era of cybernetics and then became the era of, like, you know, psychosocial control through mass media. And it all morphed into, you know, we're gonna control everything at the cellular level. He was talking about Monsanto back in the early 2000s, and again, that was. That was always considered up until Trump when they switched it. And they're like, oh, well, yeah, that's like kind of a right wing talking point now. Now. And that was. I mean, Alex really. Alex was the reason that Trump.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, you're right. In game was 2007. So actually endgame was two years before Obama Deception. Obama Deception was a lot bigger documentary. I mean, it just went massive. I mean, it was getting like, you know, promoted on Fox News and stuff. But endgame was 2007. And I think that did take Alex to another level because that was very popular online.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, just. I was gonna say it was. It was a little. It was older than that because I can remember if it was 2006 or 7, but I know it was. It was ancient times because I watched it in an Internet cafe.

[Jay Dyer]

Wow. Yeah, that's old school, dude. Those don't exist. So those are. Those are retired. I did see one the other day, by the way, in a small town, so there is like, there are few Internet cafes still.

[John Kiriaku]

But a lot of.

[Tristan Haggard]

A lot of his stuff, too, was. Was disseminated by people burning DVDs back in the day. Back, you know, 2007, 2008.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I did That I did that.

[Tristan Haggard]

It was a lot of libertarian types.

[John Kiriaku]

And at.

[Tristan Haggard]

At the time, locally, there were. There were groups where I lived at the time there groups. And we were. We were kind of anti smart meter and stuff. So these were big concerns. Was like WI fi back then, smart meters and microwave radiation being put up all over the place, mandating it being put on your house and, you know, the carcinogenic effects of this. And a lot of the. The people that would distribute Alex's DVDs would be distributing like what in the World are they spraying? And some of those other kind of classics.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh yeah, I remember those classics. Yeah, that was Introduction to Geoengineering too. I first heard about that from Alex in 2006.

[John Kiriaku]

But I spent many an afternoon burning DVDs to pass out to people.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I did too. I would do that at my college. And I was, as I was telling Harrison yesterday on the last broadcast,

[Tristan Haggard]

I

[Jay Dyer]

remember at college we did a showing in the theater of Endgame when it came out. So. And it was a hassle too because the college didn't want us to play that. So we had to like wrangle and you know, deal with bureaucracy to get it played. Which is weird because the university is supposed to be neutral. It's supposed to allow that kind of stuff that students want to do. But yeah, here, by the way, is. I'll never forget this Doo doo. That's very john carpenter. Oh, it ends with HG Wells quote. Countless people will die hating the. Countless people hate the New World Order and they will die against it. I appeared before the Congressional committee to tell what I knew of activities which

[Alex Jones (clip)]

might lead to an attempt to set up a fascist dictatorship.

[Jay Dyer]

So yeah, he begins with Smedley Butler and the military industrial complex. Anyway, you guys can go back if you want to watch all those. But again, it was. It was. I mean, nothing really will change. A lot of people are asking, no, Alex is not retiring. He just will already has new studios and they'll have a whole new network. It's just not called Infowars. So basically they lost the name, the equipment and the studio. Studios, which is a large facility. So.

[Tristan Haggard]

But he's worried about are they going to come after his new company and try and just shatter that as well and.

[Jay Dyer]

No, they set it up. No, they set it up to where now he's not. It's not his company, so he's. It's under Bigly. So Bigly runs it like they previously had the Hodge twins and a bunch of other people. So it's Alex Jones Network is now owned by Bigley, so it's under a different company. But he already just, he's already built all the. The new stuff and today was the first show on the new network. People are asking about why the website. Well, they took the website, right. So they have. They shut down the website and all that. No, technically the Onion doesn't own it, but they were able to get everything shut down yesterday for the first time. So the very last few minutes of an Infowars broadcast was, believe it or not, was me doing an Alex Jones impression. I thought I was trying to figure out what could I say what, what would be like the ultimate sort of sign off. And Harrison went to me and I was like, I'll just say my classic Alex impression.

[Chase Geyser]

Jay Dyer, you can follow him at J. Dyer on X. Final thoughts, sir.

[Jay Dyer]

The.

[Chase Geyser]

The floor is yours. What? How do you feel about this being the final show under the Infowars banner?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I'm unbelievable. Crazy unbelievable.

[Ryan Turbeval]

That's really good.

[Tristan Haggard]

That's very convincing.

[Jay Dyer]

So there you go. That was the end of enforce broadcast. Right there was me doing that, which is a lesser known little thing that Alex does when he's ranting. But yeah, there we go. And I'm thankful. I had a blast there with the, you know, many, many times in studio, probably six or seven times in studio hosting the fourth hour since 2000, 2020. So six years of fourth hour, many in studio and full shows as well. I had a blast. And Alex never told me that I couldn't talk about anything, never censored me, never said, don't talk about this, please talk about this. I was always straight up. Alex never lied or did anything weird to me. Nothing was sus that I ever saw. He was always straight up. So I have nothing but appreciation and support and look up to Alex quite a bit. He was a lot of inspiration for what we do over here and very happy to. To host. And I assume that people are asking, are you still going to be hosting? Yes. So we don't exactly know what the format will be on the Alex Jones Network, but I will still host,

[Unidentified Guest (possibly Tristan or Jay)]

but

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know at what capacity. And he has plans. He wants to do like a network with a lot of different shows and so that might be a possibility. We'll see Modern Apostate. What's up?

[Tristan Haggard]

Yo, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

Congrats to you and Alex.

[Caller or Guest]

Hopefully the fight goes on. RIP Infowars. But someone called in, I think two days ago and they were talking about how like the east and the west they're two lungs of the same church, and somehow the Catholics can kind of keep both theologies together. Ironically, I was listening to some possible hymns that in some of the playlists on. On Spotify had some Catholic choirs singing it. And they sing something about Christ being the only sinless one in.

[Jay Dyer]

In the liturgy.

[Caller or Guest]

And it seems to me completely contradictory to, if they're meant to hold to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception that they could possibly sing that Jesus is the only sinless one.

[Tristan Haggard]

So I feel like that's.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, it still might be. You could still. You could still say that in a relative sense. For example, you know, people, Protestants will say something like, you know, the Romans says, all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Okay, well, is Christ a man? Yes. Is he part of the. All right, so in Romans 3, everybody agrees that it's not. It's a relative usage of no one or none. Right? So in the same sense, you could say. And you could also say, Mary, bro, what are you doing, dude? You cranking gear shifts over there?

[Tristan Haggard]

That's my chair.

[Jay Dyer]

You could also say. Hold on, let me finish. Let me, let me finish, dog. Let me finish. You could also say, for example, well, Mary is under original sin. That's why she died. Right? So she has the effects of original sin. And sometimes original sin or ancestral sin is spoken of as the effects. Right? We are all under original sin. Okay. And that includes Mary. That does not mean that Mary had actual sin or actual guilt.

[Caller or Guest]

Well, I would agree from like the Eastern perspective if she's still under the effects of original sin. But I think the. Doesn't the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception say.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you're saying. Why would Roman Catholics say that? I misunderstood?

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm saying I feel like it's

[Caller or Guest]

a contradiction or it seems like a contradiction that the east is able to him Christ is the only sinless one. While they're meant to hold to the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. So that would.

[Jay Dyer]

I see. Yeah, no, that is, that is a good point. But again, I think that would demonstrate that Immaculate Conception is a doctrine that evolved and was very late.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah, I think that that was kind of my point saying, you know, in the same way that they, they don't have to say the filioque in the. In their version of the Creed, Right? And you know, they have some cop out saying, you know, we hold to the theology or maybe they'll come up

[Tristan Haggard]

with some other cope.

[Caller or Guest]

But I feel like this is another one of those where they're trying to have it both ways and kind of the papacy is just. It's the only thing that really matters in terms of binding the whole Catholic world together.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Caller or Guest]

Kind of have any liturgy, anything you want, as long as you affirm the Pope. So that was the only point I wanted to bring up. And just.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's a great point, man. I appreciate that. Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

Good luck to you and Alex on the new adventure.

[Jay Dyer]

Appreciate that.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Guys, if you didn't see the. It's. I think it's hour and a half, two hours that I did with Gerald over on the Crowder channel that went up today. A lot of people are vibing with it very well because we critique the idea that we need to unite with Islam to fight degeneracy. And, no, we do not just simply worship Israel or anything like that. I call out both Islam and Zionism and Christian Zionism. That is in the topics today. If you guys want to talk about that, feel free to call in on any topic. Tristan joins me today as my coadjutor. He is officially a coadjutor today. Provocateur, some would say. Coadjutor. Right. Tristan, you a coadjutor today?

[John Kiriaku]

Absolutely.

[Tristan Haggard]

100 Jesuit, Black Assassin.

[Jay Dyer]

Tristan is a tiger blood Vatican assassin. I feel like I'm the only, like, black assassin up here because I'm bipoc. But, I mean, you could be an assassin, just not black assassin.

[Tristan Haggard]

I mean, this is.

[John Kiriaku]

I want to ask my good Tristan something because you're, like, 10 years younger than me. I am a boomer. So. No, but. But back at the time when all of you know, 2009, 10 and all that, did you see people, not a topic necessarily resonate with things that, like, Infowars was talking about back in the day? Because I think, like, people who are more my age, probably. Nobody resonated with that.

[Jay Dyer]

I was like, you know, late.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, like, nobody resonated. I was just curious if you thought that, like, 10 years down the line, people your age were more open to that.

[Tristan Haggard]

So 2006, 2007, eight. That. That. That era.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah. Or even, you know, up to like, 9, 10, 11.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, no, I don't think it was. It wasn't.

[John Kiriaku]

It wasn't normal.

[Tristan Haggard]

It definitely wasn't normal. There were some people. It was mostly, you know, there was a kind of a. Like a Freedom Forum thing that was some libertarians, but mostly just people that were interested in some of these issues. So they ended up. You'd have these meetup groups that ended up being run by kind of libertarian types. At the time, because that was who was willing to organize stuff. But it wasn't. Not everybody. There was libertarian. Like, I never really was fully sold on the libertarian thing. And Alex has always been kind of like classical liberal libertarian type, at least back then. I don't know where he's. Where he's been going lately. But it wasn't, it wasn't popular. There were a lot of boomers, there were a lot of Gen Xers, and it was just. It was a lot of people who were kind of, maybe, I don't know, I wouldn't say they weren't fringe people, but they were just not. These weren't normal people. These were people that had seen something, experienced something that kind of made them, you know, question grand narratives in certain ways. And, you know, people that were. That were a little bit. Move it out there.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, Jethro, in the chat. No, that was the old interview that I did with Gerald. The new interview just went up here eight hours ago. It's called Unholy Alliance, Decoding the Islam Christian quote, Friendship with Jay Dyer. So they just premiered that today and we'd actually recorded that, I think, like two, two or three weeks ago. So this did finally go up. It's already got like a lot of views on Rumble. It's like half a million on Rumble already. So it was a really good conversation. I think the first one was good too, because we went pretty hard into Christian Zionism. And I was, you know, posing several points, I think, where Gerald and I would disagree. So this one was focused more so on are we being sold on this, you know, sort of fake right wing alliance with Islam. But I think people are beginning to see through that. I don't see that as much. You know, that is one area where I think. I just definitely disagree with Tucker because Tucker seems to continue to lean into this position that, that we do have a common ground with Islam, that we could oppose, you know, Israeli Zionist control or something like that. But it's like, look, both of these religions and there are religious commitments, even if they're Zionist, ultimately, it's still quasi religious commitment. Like, both these religions are Talmudic. This is what people don't understand. That's what I told the Hodge twins. Like, no, you're saying Islam is also heavily Talmudic. So if you want to be, you know, opposed to the Talmud or whatever, like, you can't make an alliance with Islam. It's just. And I understand why people think this. It's because so many people in the west don't Understand Islam, they don't know what it actually teaches. And because we're so lied to, they think, oh, well, if 9, 11, you know, if I'm going to question that, well, the Muslims must not be bad, right then. That's just. It's not that simple. Or black and white or good guy, bad guy. I think you guys have seen, you know, we've done eight years of debates with top Muslims now, and they're all just bad news. I mean, the religion is. It doesn't matter what flavor it is. Yes, you could find countries where Islamic secular regimes are a little more tolerant, like Assad or something like that towards Christianity. But the Muslims of the west has always funded the Salafi, Wahhabi radicals. They absolutely eradicate Christianity. That's what they did when the west and Israel supported Jelani to come in. They just destroyed all the churches in Syria. Israel's bombing Christian Orthodox, Catholic churches in Lebanon now. So that's why you have to understand, as many, many, many rabbis say, Islam is the broom of Judaism. Once you understand that, you won't fall for the idea that we can be buddies with the shakes and whatnot. And again, think about this. The whole conversation that we had with Kiriaku yesterday or the day before, right? He pointed out how anti Christian, anti, you know, Western, all the stuff that Saudi Arabian ideology is. So if we wanted to really be opposed to Islam as we've been supposedly through this war on, quote, terror, then we would have been against Saudi Arabia. But we were set up with Kissinger's machinations and plans to rely on Middle Eastern Saudi Arabian oil to have the, quote, petrodollar. So this was all, that's all smoke and mirrors anyway. So, no, Islam is not a friend to the West. And as you get into Islam, you learn more and more and more that no Daniel Hakikachu actually does represent authentic Islam. And when Daniel Hagikaju gets up there and says, yeah, we're gonna take you over with I n b r e d 80 I q people with swords. He's not joking. FDA, did you want to say something? Father Deacon, are you there?

[John Kiriaku]

Well, this is just another example. You remember I texted you that people were so blinded for their hatred of

[Tristan Haggard]

the tribe that like, they would literally

[John Kiriaku]

become retarded and they'll join forces.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, well, we were talking about the pagans, right? This, this uptick in the neo pagans in the last few weeks. They're going crazy.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah, but I've seen that it's the same with, you know, even conservatives like, oh, we could join teams with Islam. Like, it's the same thing. Or the,

[Tristan Haggard]

you know, the ortho people

[John Kiriaku]

that fell for Brother Nathaniel and his stuff. It's just like, people get so blinded by that.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely. Yeah. It's a. It's a fervor, kind of an obsession. I mean, look at Europe.

[John Kiriaku]

How well is joining forces with Islam going for.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

People in the chat. People in the chat are saying that anybody who thinks that we should align with Islam should come visit Europe in the uk.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Tristan, did you want to comment? I feel like Tristan is getting drowned out and the many EDAs that are joining us today when he's our chief EDA for the day. I'm just.

[Tristan Haggard]

I'm just one of the. Just one of the crowd today.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no, you're our.

[John Kiriaku]

You're not.

[Jay Dyer]

No, you're a special diva guest today, and I want you to feel affirmed. We affirm. We affirm you.

[Tristan Haggard]

You just don't listen when I talk anyways.

[Jay Dyer]

We affirm you, Tristan. We affirm you.

[Tristan Haggard]

Well, you try to. You try to deny my black. My bipo status. I thought I was pretty messed up, to be honest.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I don't know what you. I just. I don't know what you're identifying as presently, so I can't. I don't want to make rash judgments or Dead name you.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, no, it's. It's. I've been thinking about kind of what we're talking about earlier with the. The shifting tides of political discourse, which don't shift that much. It's. There's a con. There's a consistent corralling into utilitarian groupings that people will make in order to try to create, like, you know, some political leverage. And I understand the concept, but it's also. It's just. There's, you know, looking from. From the time of. Around, you know, 2007 and on, you know, 2006, seven and on, when it seemed like maybe something could be done to me. And going through that period of, like, the Ron Paul stuff, seeing what happened with the Obama election.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Well, I forgot to mention Ron Paul.

[Jay Dyer]

Ron Paul was another catalyst for Alex to kind of go to the next level. And Rand Paul, too, to a degree.

[Tristan Haggard]

100. Yeah, that was a. That was a big deal. I mean, that was. That was huge. It just, he. His conversations with Ron Paul back in the day, those.

[John Kiriaku]

Those would blow up and be all over the place.

[Tristan Haggard]

But it's.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah.

[Tristan Haggard]

You know, seeing how things went with Trump and you. You kind of feel. I Just. I feel like a lot of sympathy. I got a lot of sympathy for Alex. It's.

[John Kiriaku]

He's been.

[Tristan Haggard]

That dude has never taken away. Has he ever taken a week off? Has he ever taken a month off? You know, he's. He's just. He's got to be so burnt out. You can see he's burnt out like you see on the last show. And, you know, kind of the. The public behavior the last few months, he's. He's been struggling, man, and it's. He's been through a lot, and there's been a lot of little incarnations of different political movements that he's had his hands on. And he's consistently. He's been consistent in his positioning and been open about why he allied in certain ways, certain movements with certain people. And you just see him getting just slapped in the face over and over again. And he's. Alex is. He's the, like, the last great American. You know, he's kind of. He's a true American, and I'm unbelievable, either in exalting or a derogatory way. It's like he truly believed in the American principle and this idea of, you know, the Republic of America and those kind of libertarian values and that the people should have a say in this. And I think, you know, he's. He.

[John Kiriaku]

He got.

[Tristan Haggard]

He got kind of. He got kind of beat up along the way.

[John Kiriaku]

And.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, Alex is America. Alex is. He's the American poet for Alex Jones.

[Jay Dyer]

But he's also. Go ahead, John.

[John Kiriaku]

That's a good. That's. I was gonna say that's a good statement and a good encapsulation of it, because, like, someone like myself, I did learn a lot from him over many years, but I'm more cynical. Like, I was raised to be cynical.

[Tristan Haggard]

And he.

[John Kiriaku]

He always, like.

[Tristan Haggard]

Like you said, he always believed in

[John Kiriaku]

the idea of America. And kind of where I. I was not like that. That was never something that resonated with me as I listened to his radio show over many years. It was just something that, you know, he. I. It was like. He says a lot of good stuff here, but then this kind of faith in the Founding Fathers type stuff didn't resonate with my version, with my version of Generation X, because he's a little older than I am.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, it's. It's. It's hard to. You know, I think it's easy to get real critical of people. I think, you know, people like us who come from kind of more cynical subcultures and countercultures and have Been through a lot of these different countercultures. We've had a deep seated. And it says there's something about California, too, that'll do that to you. Growing up around, like, culture creation and seeing the falseness of it, there's that that deep rooted cynicism sometimes would turn against Alex, you know, definitely went through periods. I was like, upset with Alex, like, how are you doing business? But, you know, as the years go by, as you mature and get older, you kind of realize, you know, a little more sympathy for, for, you know, even mistakes that people make.

[John Kiriaku]

Right.

[Tristan Haggard]

We all mess up. And I think the first thing that you asked me, Jay, earlier, about just my thoughts on all, you know, politics and everything, I definitely agree kind of with you that it's, it's mostly fake and gay and you see the results of people who try and hitch their wagon to it too hard. You know, there's, there's a few different directions you can go, but you kind of just, I don't know, the little like, like you can't sell just parts of your soul over and over again and have it kind of affect you. And I'm not saying that, you know, involving yourself in political movements is selling your soul, but there's this inherent compromise that happens and this consistent, like, oh, well, you got to pick a team, you got to pick a side. This is this bifurcated reality and this is just how, how it is. But this is, this has been how it's been since the whole post World War II order. And the whole project of, like, postmodernism is it's, it's a giant failure at the human level, at the level of the soul. And we're not going to find some political solution. You're not going to get, like, the right political movement that's going to fix it all. And Alex has known that, but he, you know, he thought maybe we could get certain things done with Trump. And I think that, I think that took the biggest toll on him. It's just how, you know, how much it, it hurt him to see what happened with that momentum and that energy and how it's just this. You can see the cynicism coming back to him every once in a while. And then he'll pump himself up with like, the street preachers, like, life is fiery in its beauty. And he's. Yeah, I like Alex a lot. I like, He's a, he's one of the, he's a character. Shout out to my buddy Dangerfield. He always says that Alex is the last great American I get where that's

[Jay Dyer]

the last great American. Yeah. With that. Bla's got that Larry Nichols voice.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Hillary's a witch,

[Jay Dyer]

So. And by the way, Tristan over talking in past tense, nothing changed. Alex went right back to the show the next. The show today. So the only thing that changed,

[Caller or Guest]

like

[Jay Dyer]

he passed away or something. He's not dead, dude. He didn't pass away, bro.

[Tristan Haggard]

He's good.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, like, take a break and

[Tristan Haggard]

get sober for a bit. You know, I'm not saying that he's like, you know, breaking down or anything, but you can say alcohol takes its toll on you. It takes a toll on the body and on the. And I. If I was in this position, I'd be drinking a hell of a lot too, so I can't. I can blame him for that. But you just, you. You want the best for Alex. You want to take. To take a break. It's got to be freaking exhausting going so hard for so long. So I, I hope he uses this transition to kind of, you know, get

[Jay Dyer]

a little bit of.

[John Kiriaku]

A little bit of.

[Tristan Haggard]

Maintain some. Some mental health. Mental health.

[Jay Dyer]

Like the millennial. The, The Gen Z millennial. Speak of mental healths.

[Tristan Haggard]

He's having mental health right now, guys. We need him to get his mental health back.

[Jay Dyer]

Redeem Zoomer, by the way, I thought this was a funny comment said and this. And I'm saying this because ruse run Rusalon retweeted it. There's nothing in the Church Fathers that they unanimously confess that the Protestant Confessions also don't teach. This is so preposterous and these people are so absurd that they're just going to continue making converse orthodoxy by saying these kinds of ridiculous things. And he already has gotten ratioed, as you can see. So how about baptismal regeneration? How about the episcopacy in terms of Church government? How about relics? How about the Eucharist? How about the saints? How about works? How about the very existence of canon law? Like, none of that exists in the Protestant Confessions. In fact, the Protestant Confessions explicitly say those things are demonic and denials of the Gospel. So this goober just keeps digging his hole more and more and more. And the fact that Ruslan is retweeting this kind of nonsense just shows these guys have no. No clue.

[John Kiriaku]

Okay?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't think Ruzon even reads books, so how's he gonna know what the Church Fathers teach? He doesn't even read. So, I mean, maybe if he. Maybe if they translate the. The Church Fathers into pigeon or into ebonics, we could get Ruslan to read a few pages of it. But until then, I don't think Ruslan's going to be reading much of the Church Fathers. And then I saw there was a clip on Tick Tock where some dude met Cosmic Skeptic in person, and he asked him about me. Now, I didn't. I don't know who this dude is. I didn't plan this. But the dude said, hey, why don't you have a discussion with Jay Dyer about theism or an agnosticism or whatever? And cosmic skeptics said, oh, he's too pompous. Now, remember, of course, the Psalms say that the heart and root of pride is saying things like, there is no God. The fool has said in his heart there is no God. But even if I'm the most pompous dude on planet Earth, if there's no God, what's wrong with pompousness? Right? There's nothing wrong. Like, there's nothing. It's not objectively a problem. So aren't all atheists and everyone else, by the way, not doing anything wrong at any time? Because everything's meaningless. So who cares about pompousness? And by the way, what does it have to do with whether or not any of the arguments are true or false? And like Tim Gordon said here, well, if somebody's pompous and you refute them, couldn't that make the victory all the more sweet? Because you refuted the pompous Internet, man, the mean Internet man. So, again, I. I don't buy that Cosmic Skeptic doesn't want to have a discussion because he's seeing how pompous people are. Or I am. Guys, it's open forum. You can call in about any topic you want to discuss. Tristan Haggard of the Tristan Haggard YouTube channel. And on X is my guest today with me, as well as our other good friends, Con. Con, what's up, man? What's on your mind? Con? You want to unmute? Kive, I'm you. We can't hear you. Do farah pot. Leontief, what's up?

[Tristan Haggard]

Go ahead.

[John Kiriaku]

You're on the air.

[Jay Dyer]

You're on the air.

[John Kiriaku]

Hi.

[Caller or Guest]

Can you guys hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

All right. Thanks, man. I was just speaking about Ruslan.

[John Kiriaku]

I don't know.

[Tristan Haggard]

Did you see the video he did

[Caller or Guest]

where he was interviewing that Jared atheist, like, church audit guy? Do you see that?

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Like,

[Caller or Guest]

so he invited him to his, like, you know, to the talk there. And it's funny because. So the guy's an atheist. He says it's all nonsense. It's all ridiculous stuff. And, like, he doesn't believe it. He's 100 certain that Christianity is not true. And then Ruslan and all these other. And this other dude that was with him, him was like, hey, you know, asking him for advice, like, how should Christians, like, be able to preach them more, you know, to be more accepting? It was one of the most things I've ever. I've ever seen. And obviously, the guy was like. Was saying stuff like, well, you know, be more accepting. Don't shove religion down people's throats, like, making it more amenable to him, you know?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's right. That's the whole brand, Right. Ruslan's whole brand is make Christianity into a black R B manifestation.

[Tristan Haggard]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

And then. Then we'll get all the. The cool people. Is it.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it. You talking about heliocentric, or is it a different person?

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah, I think it is. I think it's the same guy. It's that Jared guy that. He went to an Orthodox church, too. He visited some other. He visits churches. He's an atheist.

[Jay Dyer]

That's him. Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

And, yeah, I mean, I'm like, well, Rufon's willing to talk to him, even though he thinks, like, Christianity is complete nonsense. And he, like, the point, isn't he. He wants his perspective, like, that's so serious. He takes the face, but he's not willing to talk to, you know, people like you or whoever else. Like, you know the game. Like.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. So, right. Remember, this was the same critique of Trent Horn, Right? Like, I don't want to toxify myself by being in the. In the circles of toxic people like Dyer or Tim Gordon or whoever, but then they'll go and they'll talk to and do debates and platform themselves with the most absolute degenerate, disgusting people like Destiny, who has for 10 years called for violence. And then you got these atheists, and I think this guy's gay, right? So he'll have gay dudes come speak at his thing, and then he's. His response to all this is just that Jay is mad because I didn't invite him to my event. I don't care about your event, dude. I really don't like that. It has nothing to do with why all of this popped off. Because of Ruslan. Ruslan himself said that, hey, all of this was my fault. I caused it by putting the catechumen on the stage. And it wasn't a debate. Well, then why was it titled everywhere, including on Trent Horn's video debate oh, well, I'll change the title debate. So it's just like, pill pole, Talmud type stuff of like, oh, well, let me just change the name. Like, we don't care about the name. The point is that you did it. And then he's like, okay, maybe I did it. Maybe it was bad optics. My mistake. Well, then why don't you decide from the get go none of this nonsense would have happened if you hadn't done that, right? And then it turns out it's actually a good thing that all this happened because then we get to see that there is this skittles undercurrent to all this stuff, Right? Because the whole Gavin Ortland circle with his dad and his. The co pastors there, they're like, pro gay, pro Kamala affirming, quote, ministers of the gospel. And that's all come to light. I didn't even know that that's all come to light as a result of all this nonsense. So thank you, Ruslan, for actually causing everybody to see that all of your stuff is actually faking gay and probably your numbers are faking gay, too, because he wanted to throw his numbers in my face. He doesn't even have the numbers that we have. Who know this numbers are probably inflated,

[Caller or Guest]

right? Yeah. I mean, I think maybe part of it, too, is. I think kind of the tension here is that, like, they don't have this critiques with Muslims, you know, like. Like, for example, because they see Muslims as the other, right? Like, as enemies, so to speak. But they can have, like, they can make fun of them. They can have dialogue with them, even, like, sit in the same room. But I think with Orthodox, since they. They assume they have the, like, the conceit that we're on the same team, they get, like, mad when we make fun of stuff that they do, even though it's kind of the same thing. Like, we. They are a different religion. And so we engage in this, like, you know, we engage in this dialogue that can sometimes be more friendly, but also sometimes more, you know, rhetoric. Rhetorical. And then, because they. They just, like you said, collapsed all this into ecumenism, like, there's no space. They can't tolerate that we are the. Like, we. We've upended them, you know, like, that's pretty much.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, their whole ethos. Yeah, the whole ethos is the dogma of ecumenism. Right? Because notice they want to talk about toxicity. They want to talk about the common gospel that they supposedly share according to the confessions that redeemed Zoomer holds to Trent Horn is a damnable heretic. He's outside of the church. Redeem Zimmer believes in a magisterial Protestant church, which he just made up within the last year. That fixes his previous ecumenism, supposedly. And so now he's. But he's buddy buddy with Gavin Ortland and Trent Horn, when even Gavin Ortland is not in the same communion with, with, with him. Because Gavin Ortland's church has Baptist theology. They don't believe in, in infant baptism. And yet they're giving the impression it's all fake, it's all smoke and mirrors. They're giving the impression that they're on the same page and they have a common theological grounding in a lowest, common nominator Jesus view. No, they don't. They're not even in the same communions. So every one of them's position is absolutely inconsistent in rejecting their own supposed BFFs, their butt buddies. But then the orthodox are the bad guys because their position is actually consistent that we think that there's one true church. All of this these guys position is based on there's not one true church. That's their presupposition number one. Number two, this is an online monetary generating grift. And anything that disrupts that, namely questioning ecumenism, is thus toxic. Ortho, bro. And bad. That's what this comes down to. And again, Ruslan's numbers do not match up to his flexing. He doesn't even have anywhere close to what we're getting in the last few months on YouTube. And he's flexing that in our faces. Like, bro, we got it locked down on YouTube. I got 800k, dude, you could have easily. You could easily have somebody buy those numbers for your channel. So given the actual metrics of who's searching what, I don't believe his 800k anymore.

[Tristan Haggard]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

Which means it's propped up is the point here. Just like Gavin's dad that he co pastors with is one of the foremost ecumenists in America, together with the support that he has through Christianity today and Dr. Russell Moore, the gender affirming co minister.

[Tristan Haggard]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

I can't believe people don't like, like, how is the Protestants? How is this not like a defeater for these guys? Like if any. Or like when Elpido foros went to that, you know, gay baptism or whatever he was at, the entire Internet was like, oh, orthodoxy done right. When we pick out their top dudes going way beyond just one Elpida for us and the actual open support of these things through Dr. Russell Moore and Ray Orland, who again, was telling everybody how bad Trump was, how bad borders were. Support Kamala. And I don't care whether you like Trump or not. The point is that no Christian can support pro trans, pro abortion political candidates. And by the way, Ruslan was doing that not that long ago with Andrew Yang. He was all about Yang. And then before that he was pro Obama. So, like, does nobody have discernment? You just think that automatically, like a dude. Oh, they. Suddenly everybody's trad and bay. Now it's the same with. You fall for the. You guys fall for the ethots as well, right? Chicks that are suddenly trad wives and. And sundress, you know, sourdough chicks on Instagram. Oh, yeah, of course. We're winning. We're winning. Well, don't you think a lot of these people, like Nala, are grifters? Is that not obvious?

[Tristan Haggard]

Right.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah. I don't want to take too much of people's time here. I want to speak up. The only thing I was. I'm thinking about, too, is just maybe, you know, because of what you. You've said here, do you think it's time to kind of like, I know this is going to sound controversial, but do you think orthodox maybe need to step back from actually debating people? Because it's obvious that.

[Jay Dyer]

No.

[Caller or Guest]

You don't care anymore.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no. I mean, I think, by the way. Oh, oh.

[John Kiriaku]

People should be debating as Jay and I.

[Moderator]

All right, everyone, thank you.

[John Kiriaku]

Stand down.

[Caller or Guest]

It needs to be more concentrated, like only a few people debating, and it needs to be like a public thing, like very public. Not these things you see once in a while on the Internet that's just, you know, swap to consume, but like a formal debates that are big, big audience and then. And then kind of leave, like debates aside and, and kind of be almost hasidum. Like we need to be like, more focused on ourselves and building up.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I don't. I mean, again, there's plenty of that, but like, I mean, we. We saw in the last, what, few years? The last couple years. This year we saw tens of thousands of people, according to Deacon Rowland, brought into orthodoxy. And in 2018, it was. It was in the thousands. So, no, if we continue, we will see hundreds of thousands in the next five years.

[John Kiriaku]

I was just joking about that.

[Caller or Guest]

But I would like to be Father Deacon, gatekeeper.

[Jay Dyer]

And those debates, you could be the. You could be the gate. You could be the gay keeper.

[Tristan Haggard]

All right, all right, J. Dyer, you

[Jay Dyer]

got me with a Gay joke, like, two weeks ago. So I'm getting you back for that. Yeah, you got me now. I got you. Guys, guess what just went up one minute ago. Guess you got it. The freemason debate. It just went up literally two minutes ago. So everybody's been asking for weeks, when is the freemason Chase Geyser debate going up? There you go. Boom. It's up, baby. Two and hours and 15 minutes right there.

[John Kiriaku]

I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

I wonder why he didn't send me a link to. Maybe he did. I just haven't seen the text message yet. But this one is a wild one. I wonder if we should save this for a separate stream. Because, I mean, this one, this one went hot and heavy. I mean, we get pretty. You can see how, like, watch Chase Goser's face, how mad he gets throughout this debate. Like, this debate is so intense, dude. And I did not expect that this would be intense at all. I thought it was going to be the most boring, technical, just talking debate. And I mean, we got freaking loud, dude. People. I thought twice they were going to rage, quit. I really did. I really did.

[Tristan Haggard]

What were the points where they were most. Where they were most upset?

[John Kiriaku]

What was the.

[Tristan Haggard]

What did you say? Or what was your argument that really tripped them up?

[Jay Dyer]

So the, the debate early on, so they didn't even get open. I gave an opening statement like a. Like, more like a formal debate. And they, they gave personal testimonies as to why they're. They're freemasons and they think it's a good organization.

[Tristan Haggard]

Oh, no.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Tristan Haggard]

They was just like, well, this is. I feel like this is cool.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I, I thought so after the opening statements, I thought that was what was going to happen. But we. Right away, what ended up the first hour of the debate ends up being whether or not Freemasonry has theological commitments. And so their position was, we're absolutely neutral. You don't have to have any theological commitments except that you have to believe in higher power. And I was like, well, first of all, I'm going to show you that you do have theological commitments. Because when you say a higher power, that already assumes all kind of. All kind of stuff. So, guys, remember the natural theology debates. This is another debate that shows that there is no neutral natural theology, because that's really the same position that the Masons are coming from. And you watch this. Yeah, go ahead.

[Tristan Haggard]

Wouldn't Freemasonry also have as theological assumption of, like, perennialism?

[Jay Dyer]

Correct. Yep.

[Tristan Haggard]

You know, radical humanism.

[Jay Dyer]

That's exactly where the Debate goes, yes. Yep. So the first hour, I start bringing forth examples of things that they would not allow. I say, so, for example, if I am a committed theistic Satanist, and that's my quote, higher power, can I join the Lodge? And they say, well, we wouldn't typically allow a Satanist. And I'm like, well, why not? Well, there's certain theological points that would exclude you. I'm like, oh, so you do have theological dogmas.

[Tristan Haggard]

What about say, well, what if I were a Luciferian?

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, actually, I do bring up the Albert pike quote.

[John Kiriaku]

That.

[Jay Dyer]

That ends up being a contentious part of the debate in the second hour. But again, the first. Whole first hour is getting them to admit that they do have theological dogmatic commitments. And the way I got them to eventually admit that was by bringing forth multiple examples of things that they wouldn't allow. So, for example, I said, what if I believe in a higher power, but I believe it's me? Like, I worship myself as a God in potentia or something like that? And they kind of fumbled around, and they were like, no, we. We wouldn't allow that. And so I'm like, okay, so you just. You start understanding that you have these metaphysical commitments, then that those are untenable religious positions that you will not allow. So you can't just sit here and tell me that I have to believe in an ecumenist dogma to be. And that's the only dogma. And then eventually, as you said, Tristan, I got them to say, so is the one dogma that I have to be an ecumenist in my dogma. And they were basically like, yes, so you do have religious dogmas. And then they start saying, well, we don't call it a dogma dogma. Well, I don't care what you call it, because Albert pike calls his book Morals and Dogma. And they're like, yeah, but you don't have to believe what Albert pike says. And I'm like, well, then why do you. So you don't have any authorities in masonry? And they're like, no. And then I say, well, so who decides who joins the Lodge and who doesn't? They're like the. The local jurisdictions. So you do have authorities. Like, they just keep going back and forth.

[Caller or Guest]

Are.

[Tristan Haggard]

Are these the Scottish right or York right? Do they get into that?

[John Kiriaku]

Like, we.

[Jay Dyer]

So weird, right? They're Nigerian, right? No, we do get into that. I'm trying to remember. Most of the debate ends up just being about the. The structure of the. The.

[Tristan Haggard]

The.

[Jay Dyer]

The master Mason degree, the first Three degrees and the Blue Lodge and all that stuff. We talk a little bit about Scott, about.

[John Kiriaku]

So, you know, Mormons are structurally Masonic, right? As well as other things. I've had the same encounter with Mormons

[Tristan Haggard]

where they just straight up lie like,

[John Kiriaku]

we don't have any hierarchy, like nobody's in charge.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, yeah, that. That the whole first hour of the debate is that. And yes, I do eventually get them to admit multiple times. And then later on in the second hour of the debate, the question comes up. So the audience starts asking questions, and then we get back and forth between them and me, and somebody asked the question about ethics, like, where does Masonry derive its ethics? And then the other guy, I forget that guy's name, but Ryan, he's actually the higher degree studied academic Mason. And Chase is more of like the public, you know, speaker type Mason. The higher studied degree guy was like, oh, we derive our ethics from the ancient religion, religions. I was like, well, wait a minute, I thought you didn't have religious commitments. And then he realized he made a huge mistake when he said that. So. Do you guys want to hear a little bit of this?

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah. Are you able to pipe it through here so we can hear it?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I'll. I'll put it on a little bit faster speed here.

[Moderator]

All right, everyone, thank you for coming out today. We have a awesome debate that we're very excited to do in person. First and foremost, we want to thank the venue. This venue is super awesome. And it's a dual. It's a dual purpose venue for events and as a workspace. So anybody who lives in Nashville, we do highly recommend this place to do either of those things. So, Robert, if you're here, thanks so much. Freemasonry incompatible with Christianity. And first and foremost, I want to say that I myself am not a Freemason, nor am I an orthodox Christian, for that matter. I am not an expert on either subject, but I will try my best to moderate the debate with the utmost neutrality. So without further ado, we're gonna go ahead and kick it off into opening statements. Jay, we can start with you. Make sure to include your. Your religious affiliation and your relationship.

[Jay Dyer]

Sponsors. Yeah.

[Moderator]

Books, the whole nine yards. And your relationship to Freemasonry, obviously. Go for it.

[Ryan Turbeval]

I'm no longer in a relationship with Freemasonry. No, I'm joking.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

We.

[Ryan Turbeval]

So I'm Jay Dyer, orthodox apologist, debater, sometime comedy writer.

[Jay Dyer]

I host the fourth hour of Alex

[Ryan Turbeval]

Jones show, and you can find me, of course, on. On YouTube and whatnot. I am an Orthodox Christian. So I believe that Masonry is incompatible with not just orthodox Christianity really any of the traditional bodies of Christianity have pretty much exerted statements on that. So am I doing open to Sam now? Are they going to say who they are first?

[Moderator]

No, let's go ahead and say who you guys are and then we'll kick it off with a extended opening statement. So go ahead, Ryan.

[Ryan Turbeval]

I'm Ryan Turbeval. I'm the only guy up here that you probably don't know. I am a lifelong Nashvillian, 33rd degree Freemason, been a Freemason for about 18 years now. And I am a Protestant Christian, put it broadly and obviously, I am pro Freemasonry.

[Chase Geyser]

I'm Chase Geyser. I have been a Freemason since 2011. Song was that but 15 years, 32nd degree Freemason, not a 33rd degree like

[Jay Dyer]

big boy Ryan over here.

[Chase Geyser]

And I'm a non denominational Christian.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Perfect.

[Moderator]

All right, we can just go in the same order here. Go ahead and kick it off with your extended opening statement and then from there we'll go into an open discussion where it's kind of just a no holds bar. Just go any direction you want within the prompt of the debate. So go ahead in your opening statement, Jay.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Yeah, so I think that what we want to think about in terms of

[Jay Dyer]

Christianity and again I'm going to argue

[Ryan Turbeval]

that although I'm orthodox, really, any of the representative historical bodies of Christianity have already made public statements. For example, Protestant denominations like the opc, the pca, various Lutheran traditional denominations themselves have stated that they don't believe that it's anyway in any way compatible with traditional Christianity. And here what we would mean is Nicene Christianity in terms of the Nicene Creed as an Orthodox Christian, of course, most of the jurisdictions and patriarchates have public statements that you cannot be a Christian. It is antithetical in terms of the philosophy of the organization as a whole. At the same time, the Roman Catholic Church still has as part of its canon law the official statement. And this was reaffirmed in the early 80s by Ratzinger in terms of the CDF that is antithetical to Catholicism to be a Freemason. So regardless of what Vatican II says, that seems to line up with Freemasonry, at least on the books. You can't be a Roman Catholic and be a Freemason. So what is it that would make it antithetical to Christianity? Well, for my argument, I would argue that saying that you are a Christian Freemason is Equivalent to saying I'm a Christian Gnostic or I'm a Christian pagan, or I'm a Christian who's a member of the Marxist Communist Party. The reason that you can't say that is that the philosophy and the ethos of those systems that I gave are at roots antithetical to the basics of the philosophy. In the worldview of Christianity. For example, the Nicene Creed has as its basic definition the deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity. One holy catholic and apostolic church. Masonry is premised on the idea that all the religions essentially are kinds of masks of God and they tend to prefer a kind of deistic version of the Deity. So Deism right from the outset, and I've got many Masonic sources that I can go to, they're going to basically say a deistic type type of perspective. If you don't what deism is, it's the Enlightenment perspective that God is not imminent in the world, active, doing things, miracles, etc, rather the God of the Bible or excuse me, the God of Masonry in the way that Masons interpret the Bible is that it's a first cause, a kind of Aristotelian mover that you don't have a relationship with. And in fact that Great Architect of the universe philosophy that Masonry has is identical to the pagan Greek philosophy perspective that Aristotle talks about. An architect works with pre existing matter and tools. He does not create ex nilo. So the very idea of calling God merely the architect already suggests a Hellenic Greek pagan perspective. That, for example, St. Basil in his famous Examron Lectures where He goes in Texanron 2 to call this position a dyad, is antithetical to Christianity's triad. Freemasonry and its representative philosophers and thinkers, whether it is people who are in the York right or promoted by the York right, like Albert Mackey and I have with me Mackey's works here explicitly downplay the Trinity and the deed of Christ to promote their generic theism based around a kind of naturalism. And Albert pike himself in morals and dogma. And we can go into all these quotes if we need to, explicitly denies the Trinity, the personhood of the Holy Spirit and says that essentially Masonry is all of the ancient mystery religions, whether it's Marcianism, Zoroastrianism or some form of Gnosticism are essentially all combined into the system of Freemasonry. So again, to make my final statement as to why it's antithetical, I would simply argue that if you look at the way that Mackie as a test case defines God he says that God is the name Tetragrammaton, the Yahweh reference that we have in the Old Testament. He says that name can only be understood and pronounced and theologically interpreted through the Kabbalah. And he says we have to look to the Zohar and the teachings of the Talmudist and the Kabbalah to understand what the theological significance of the name of God is. And he says that it's essentially the male and female principle of the universe. And then according to Mackie, when you talk about things like the Yoni, which is the vagina, the vajayjay, for those that don't know, we got a lot of single men here, they may not be familiar with that. What that is. Well, the yoni or the vajayjay is the female privy parts to, so to speak. And according to Mackie, the name of God amongst the Brahmins and the Hindus is the Yoni, referencing the female principle of nature. So equivalent. So I was simply asked if according to Masonry, the God of Masonry is the male and female principle of the universe. And according to Masonry, the name of God in Hinduism is the female principle is Yoni. Masonry essentially worships PPs and bajayjays and says that those things are God and are the ultimate generative principle and female principle universe, which is absurd and is also Kabbalistic because Kabbalah says that Adam, Kadmon and God are essentially a bisexual deity. That's where we get Baphomet. I've got scholars here who are writing from out of Harvard. William B. Green has a book about Kabbalah as the root of Masonry. So Kabbalistic Gnosticism is another way to prove and show that Masonry is antithetical to Christianity. Be like saying to Saint Irenaeus who wrote the great treatise in the second century 180 AD against the Gnostics to say, oh, but Irenaeus, don't you understand? I am a Christian and I'm a Freemason and I'm a Gnostic. They're all pretty much the same. And the other thing is that the last comment I'll make is that their position essentially predicates a tiered strata between Christians who are Masons or Masons in general versus the profane who are not initiated into their gibberish mysteries. And so that would mean that all the Christian pastors and ministers who are not initiated into the mysteries are therefore profane. And so really only the Gnostic inner elite Christian Masons would be the true Christians. That's the Very thing that Saint Irenaeus rebukes in his rebukes of the Gnostics when he says that orthodox Christianity has

[Jay Dyer]

a public good point right there, Jay.

[Tristan Haggard]

I like that you brought that in.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I wanted to. I wanted to throw in a twist and get them to realize that, you know, you're actually saying that you're more enlightened and spiritual than your own Protestant pastors who aren't Masons. So you're introducing a tiered Gnostic structure into Christianity, which Irenaeus says 101 is a refutation of the gnostics.

[Tristan Haggard]

100. I mean, you could just bring up the. The actual rights of initiation, which points this. You guys did get into that, right?

[Jay Dyer]

We do get into that. Yeah. At one point. Yeah. I bring up the. We actually get into an argument over one of the. One of the rights and rituals and then they act like they'd never heard of it. I forget which one I mentioned, but one of the rituals has something. Is it. It's either the name Maha Bone or the name Jabulan, which is one of the supposed names of the deity or whatever. And they act like that doesn't exist. I'm like, dude, come on. It's like you look this up. It exists in, in the royal. It's the Royal Arch degree. That's it. The right. The Royal Arch degree.

[Tristan Haggard]

They're actually obliged by the rights of initiation and the oaths that they take to deny that.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct the lie.

[Tristan Haggard]

That' and that's a part of the rights of initiation.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Tristan Haggard]

The symbolism of. Well, it's not symbolic. It's symbolic and seemingly real. If you look at the history of like the Captain Morgan.

[Jay Dyer]

I bring up the Morgan incident. Yeah. To bring up William Morgan. Let me see if it's. I think it is Jabulon in the Royal Arch degree. And then at one point in the debate, they just say that doesn't even exist. And I'm like, oh, come on, dude.

[John Kiriaku]

Well, even. Even in pike, in the general Masonry, he's telling, you know, Masons, once you get up to a certain degree that you are supposed to trick the lower level Mason.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct. Yeah. And. And to be fair to them, they may have not known that because this, according to this mainline Google search, it claims that this was actually removed in the late 80s. So Jabulon is a controversial word that was used in the Royal Arch rituals. It was often interpreted as a compound name of Yah Bull. And on. So Yahweh, Hebrew bull, the Syriac Babylonian deity. And on from Egypt, it was used to represent, quote, the true living God. However, this faced a lot. They faced a lot of criticism for this. And then supposedly The Royal Arch degree removed this in 1989. This was the Grand Chapter of England decided this. It doesn't say that it was in the US by the way. But then there's all these different disputes as to what it actually means. Of course. No, never. And the Masonic philosophers describe it as the three tiered thing, right? Yah, bul and on. So the reason that people would think that this means Yahweh, the Syriac God and the Egyptian God is because the Masonic philosophers like Mackie describe it that way. So we're not just theorizing. And that's why I brought all the sources. I brought like 20 different Masonic books and his histories there. Now here is. Go ahead, feel free. Solomon. Yeah, classic Jordan. Jordan Maxwell. The Masonic deity Saul.

[John Kiriaku]

Which is always funny about the wordplay stuff because they take the Masonic sources as being true. Like the foundational source.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, they go with just like the pagans default to the rabbinic interpretation, right. If you talk to any of these neo pagans, they ironically just say, well, the Jew, here's the great contradiction, right? All the pagans, the last few days, you idiots, follow the lies of the Jews and their books. It's like, okay, why is that? Because the rabbinic interpretations tell me that we have to follow the rabbinic interpretation of the Old Testament. Yeah, but I thought you said the Jews lie all the time. So it's like basically like the pagans, dude, they cannot do basic logic. Now here is their opening statement. I think you guys will see, like, I start giggling because their opening statements are just there. It's like a Baptist church where you give your personal testimony. I, I was 14 years old and I started drinking and smoking the dopes and the Lord Jesus came to, to him and I gave my life to him. It's like, what does that have to do with proving that it's true?

[Ryan Turbeval]

Persona a public doctrine. We don't have secret esoteric teachings. It's not necessary.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, great.

[Moderator]

Over to you, Ryan.

[Ryan Turbeval]

All right, so Jason, a lot there. Instead of trying to initially respond to just each point, I would stay. You're going to hear a lot from me today.

[Jay Dyer]

It's an opening statement, dude, you don't respond to the points and opening statement

[Ryan Turbeval]

that the quotes that he pulls out, the books that he references. Jay will try to make the attempt that Albert pike or Mackey or any of these guys speak for Freemasonry, that there are authorities on the craft.

[Jay Dyer]

Now, the book is called Morals and Dogma. It was handed out for decades at lodges when you graduated from, I don't know, like 32nd degree or something, right? Then you got the Albert pike book you're supposed to study. So the idea that these people are not authorities, in my, my view is preposterous. Right. Doesn't mean that. And he tries to twist it as if I was saying that you have to believe everything that Albert pike says, like he's a pope. No, I never made that argument. There's nothing in the term authorities that requires it to be papal infallibility, authority. It just means authorities recognize representative speakers. For just like Protestantism has representative authorities and theologians, right? John Calvin, Martin Luther, they have confessions that are authoritative. So he, this guy does a lot of, like, that kind of twisting. As you'll see.

[Ryan Turbeval]

No man speaks for Freemasonry. Freemasonry is not a religion. We don't.

[Jay Dyer]

No man speaks for Freemasonry. Are you speaking for Freemasonry right now when you say no man speaks for Freemasonry?

[Ryan Turbeval]

I have apostles, we don't have canon. You know, there's, there is no authority on Freemasonry. It's a fraternity.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, notice everything he says in the open statement, because I bring it up all throughout the debate. There's no authorities. Nobody speaks for Freemasonry. And then I later ask him, who decides who's irregular and regular in your Masonic jurisdictions? Oh, the Grand Lodge.

[Ryan Turbeval]

I mean, it's like what that is

a system of morality, as we call it. It's essentially a philosophy. And in studying that philosophy, in the system of self improvement for men, we pull from a lot of different religions. Albert Pike, Morals and dogma. I'm sure that's going to come up today.

[Jay Dyer]

You hear that we pull from religion. And then he's going to later argue it's not theological.

[Ryan Turbeval]

It's basically a book in comparative religion. Mackie, Some of these other people we quoted, these are individuals with their own ideas as it pertains to the deity, to Christianity. Some of them are Christian, some are not. Freemasonry does not require you to be of one religion to be a member. You simply have to be.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, but it does. You have to be of the ecumenist, synchronous religion. And that ends up being my whole argument. And it takes him an hour for to get them to admit that.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Believe in a supreme being. And we'll, I'm sure we'll dig into that further. I'll save that for later.

[Chase Geyser]

But.

[Ryan Turbeval]

But essentially, Masonry leaves a lot up to the individual man as it pertains to his beliefs in deity, because it's not its purpose, it's not its goal. It's not that it's indifferent. It's not that it doesn't care. It simply says that this is a fraternity with certain moral teachings and principles that surely borrow from different systems. But the purpose is not to create a new system. There's no Masonic plan of salvation. There's no Masonic worship. It's not meant to replace religion. And so me, as a Christian, I don't agree with some of my brothers and their views on religion. And that's fine. There's nothing that says that I have to. And the entire point, or one of the main points of the fraternity, the reasons why we allow men of different beliefs to come together, is that Christian concept of, as iron sharpens iron, one man sharpens another. By bringing men together of different beliefs that still are united upon core principles, we're able to work towards bettering ourselves and bettering the world.

[Jay Dyer]

Now, I'm going to go ahead and warn you that they were not prepared for a presuppositional critique. That's what I brought to the table, was because, as you guys know on this channel, I'm sure many of you who are regular listeners, you're already beginning to. To think, wait a minute, we're gonna do some. Some tag here. What is the criteria for making men better? What's the value judgment basis there? How are we judging what actually improves? And of course, yes, all that will be brought up, but I just want to highlight that. Remember all the things he said there and the words that he used in his opening statement, including, more than once, religious ideas that Masonry draws from. We draw from the religions. Keep that in mind.

[Moderator]

All right, Chase.

[Chase Geyser]

Well, again, I'm Chase Geyser, former infowars host. It's actually how I interacted and met Jay for the first time. The first thing I want to do is I want to thank DJ for putting this event together. Kudos to you and all your hard work. I think it's important that these debates continue to happen. Ryan, of course, I want to thank you. Ryan's a very close old friend of mine here in Nashville for agreeing to participate in this, because I know that it was participating in something like this is it opens up the door for criticism and problems or whatever, and you just bravely decided to do it. And Jay, I also want to thank you for agreeing to come out here and do this debate And I just want to be totally explicit that although I disagree with Jay on this particular issue, I have astounding admiration for the work that he's done, and I'm very grateful for specifically all the content that he's made on the InfoWars platform, hosting the fourth hour of the Alex Jones Show. And so I genuinely appreciate that very much. I want to just start briefly by saying why I decided to become a Freemason. I was a sophomore in college at Belmont University here in Nashville, and I was looking at the different fraternities at the university, and I just wasn't really feeling it. There's no frat houses at Belmont University. There wasn't much of a community. It was just kind of this ethereal group that would meet together for these different fraternities. And I happen to be reading the autobiography of Benjamin Franklin summer after my freshman year.

[Jay Dyer]

Go ahead. Go ahead, Tristan.

[Tristan Haggard]

That's his opening. That's his opener. It's just, like, Tell you about him.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, like, Like I said, it's like Baptist church, where you give your personal testimony

[Tristan Haggard]

for himself. And, like, that's. That's pretty funny. How long. Oh, man. How long is this debate?

[Jay Dyer]

2 hours and 15 minutes. Do you want me to skip? Let me, Let me skip. Let me skip ahead. Let me. Let me skip ahead to some of the. To heat here.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah, yeah. What about right after the opening statements? What is.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, let's go to that. Let's. Let's go to that immediately or. Yeah, here we. Here we go.

[Moderator]

I'll go to that after this. We're gonna have some questions on the side over here at the very end. So during this debate, if you have anything that comes to minds, you have any questions, write it down, take a note, and we'll step over there for a brief period at the end where some of you guys would have to ask questions. Now, I think the best jumping off point was, Ryan, you said that there's a lot to respond to in Jay's opening statement, but you want to make a statement of your own, obviously. So I think just pick a point, any point in that statement, and we'll just jump off into it, and I'll mostly step back.

[Ryan Turbeval]

And I, I, I first became interested in masonry, like Chase, a lot of storytelling.

[Jay Dyer]

Let's get to the heat, dude.

[Ryan Turbeval]

It's worth checking out. And I got into it, and that's what I experienced. Lodge has a website, but we're one of the rarities. I view other Christians or my Christian trinity in order to call his book Morals and Dogma.

I don't know if we're going to do just Q and A back and forth. I don't care either way.

[Jay Dyer]

But I mean, the idea that, well,

[Ryan Turbeval]

you know, we just make good men better, it's a radical individualism because it's Enlightenment philosophy. It's just simple philosophy. I mean, that's not actually the case because first of all, I mean, just the name of the book itself is Morals and Dogma. Dogma, to me, doesn't sound like it's just opinion. That's the opposite of opinion. It's dogma. So when you say that there's no authorities in Masonry, why does Albert pike call his book Morals and Dogma? Why was that handed out to so many people in the Scottish Right? If it's not in some sense a kind of authority, why is he one of the most honored masons in Washington D.C. in terms of.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, did I say he's a papal authority? No. So notice he's going to do a straw man, because I never said that. I just said in some sense he is obviously an authority in Masonry.

[Ryan Turbeval]

If his Confederate monument still standing there and hasn't been torn down when they turn on all the other monuments. To me, that's preposterous to say that there are no authorities. Because if there are no authorities, who decides that Morals and Dogma isn't an authority and that Masonry has no authorities?

[Jay Dyer]

Notice right there. Boom from the outset, basic precept question. It's going to take an hour to get them to understand that simple argument. I promise you it's one hour.

[Ryan Turbeval]

So this is a little newer version of Morals and Dogma, but it's the same stuff, just a nicer cover. This is the original preface by Albert Bike, page 69. I don't know what version you have over there, but it'll be in your version as well. He starts out by saying the teachings of these readings are not sacramental so far as they go beyond the realm of morality into those other domains of fault and truth. The ancient accepted Scottish Rite uses the word dogma in its true sense of doctrine or teaching, and is not dogmatic in the odious sense of that term. Everyone is entirely free to reject and dissent from whatsoever here.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but my argument was who decides that it's dogma? That you are free to reject or assent to whatever you want in Masonry. That is the dogma. You guys see that, right?

[Ryan Turbeval]

And may seem to be him to be untrue or unsound. It is only required of him that he shall weigh what is taught, give it fair hearing and unprejudiced judgment. So that's the beginning to Morals and Dogma. Morals and Dogma. As you can see, it is quite a lengthy book, about a thousand pages, pretty complex. Read what most Scottish Rite Masons today receive. Since 1983, there's this book, Bridge to Light. This is what's given to most guys when they come through the Scottish Rite. And again, on page three, it reiterates that same preface of pike with an addition with the guy who wrote this book, Dr. Rich Hutcherson. It says it expresses the opinions of Dr. Rich Hutcherson, 33rd degree, concerning the Scottish Rite, ritual and Albert Pike's morals and dogma. We respect his opinion, offer them for the consideration and personal evaluation of each reader of this volume. And then it repeats Pike's claim that this is not sacrament, it is not doctrine, it is not dogma in the odious sense of the term. It's his ideas, and it's mine and Chase's job to study them, ponder them, and we are allowed and encouraged to disagree with him.

[Chase Geyser]

I'd like to add a point, if I may. I understand from a perspective of Western Christian America values, American values, how it's easy to look at an organization like the Masons and look at it through the lens of religion. What I mean to say is in Christianity, we have the Matthews, the Marks, the Lukes, the Johns, the Pauls, and these canon voices that are considered to have etched in pen, even though pens weren't invented yet. The word of God. But with Masonry, this is really more along the lines of apologetics. When we talk about the Mackies or the mainly B Halls or the. Or the Albert Pikes, in the sense that I would liken an Albert pike to Masonry in the same way that I would liken a C.S. lewis perhaps to Catholicism. And that nothing that C.S. lewis wrote, whether it's miracle, C.S.

[Jay Dyer]

lewis wasn't Catholic, by the way, Christianity

[Chase Geyser]

or another work is considered to be part of the Canon of Catholicism. It's just his thoughts, his philosophies, his interpretations, his ideas around Catholicism specifically. There's not a situation in Masonry where we're getting.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, I was tempted to correct him and show him that he didn't even know what he's talking about because C.S. lewis was Anglican. But I think I bit my tongue on that together.

[Chase Geyser]

And we're singing psalms that are the words of Albert pike, like he would sing psalms in church that are the words of David, for example. And I just Wanted to emphasize again, just like you did in your introduction, Ryan, that yes, these are all interesting books with interesting perspectives and philosophies, but they're by no means canon in terms of Masonic philosophy, in my opinion.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Maybe you misunderstood what I was arguing because I didn't argue that you don't claim to have quotes from Albert pike saying that there's no dogmas. For example, I noticed in my copy from maybe 10 years ago, when I read this on page 222 of this older version, I noted that it's a subjectivist, relativist contradiction because he says it is dogmatic in Masonry that there's no dogma. So.

[Jay Dyer]

So to see the argument. They keep missing this argument.

[Ryan Turbeval]

I was doing a philosophical critique, and I'm asking you, is it dogmatic that there's no dogma in Masonry?

What's your definition?

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, no.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Dogma. Maybe we should start with that.

[Jay Dyer]

How did he define it?

[Ryan Turbeval]

He defined it as. What do you say? Perfect. He says perfect truth or some perfection, something like that.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know.

[Ryan Turbeval]

How do you define dogmas, Beliefs that you can't question?

[Chase Geyser]

I don't believe that there are any beliefs other than the existence of God that you can't question in Freemasonry.

[Jay Dyer]

So there is dogma in Freemasonry.

[Chase Geyser]

If you would define. How do you guys know if you would define the necessitation of the belief in God is dogma, then yes, according to that definition, that would be dogma,

[Ryan Turbeval]

because there are dogmas.

There are requirements for membership. So foundational.

[Jay Dyer]

If you redefine the word dogma, to

[Ryan Turbeval]

me, requirements is not dogma anymore.

I mean, if we want to argue over words, we can do that.

[Jay Dyer]

But no, it's not arguing over words. This is the first time when, you know, anytime somebody's beginning to lose a debate, most of the time in my experience, when they start saying this is

[Ryan Turbeval]

semantics we're arguing over. No, it's.

[Jay Dyer]

There's disqualifiers, right?

[Ryan Turbeval]

The.

[Jay Dyer]

They're not words.

[Ryan Turbeval]

They're your own teaching.

No, they're words.

[Chase Geyser]

Jay, what are you trying to get at in terms of what are the implications?

[Jay Dyer]

Do you.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Do you. I'm not trying to be rude or

[Chase Geyser]

no, I'm not taking it that way.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Do you not understand the argument that I'm making?

[Chase Geyser]

I don't think that I do. Could you rephrase it?

[Ryan Turbeval]

The argument was initially that Masonry does not have dogmas. There's no specific authorities. There's not a canon of things that we would look to by which we would Exclude people. But you just admitted that you have to believe, for example, in a higher power. So there are at least some minimal dogmas. And so it's not true that there are no dogmas in Mason.

I think. I think the argument was that the words of Albert pike are not Masonic dogma.

No, I'm asking you, are there any.

[Chase Geyser]

Yeah, well, you have to believe in God. So if you consider that to be a dogma, then.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Yes.

Is that the only one other. Yeah, but it's just one.

We have what's called the ancient landmarks. Now, the landmarks can differ amongst your.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, so now there are dogmas. You see.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

You see the moving of the goal post. Now there are dogmas, but we don't call them dogmas. They're called doctrines and landmarks.

[Tristan Haggard]

The title of Albert Pike's book. The next edition.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Tristan Haggard]

Doctrine Landmarks.

[Jay Dyer]

Doctrine Landmarks. Exactly.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Fiction.

[John Kiriaku]

Remember you said there's one dogma, and that's you. And for some reason he thinks dogma. Is that what you can't question anyways? It's. You have to believe in God. It would be nice to ask him, like, says who?

[Jay Dyer]

That's where it goes. And then it turns into. Then it turns into what? What kind of deity?

[Ryan Turbeval]

I can give a step back just to. We use Masonic terms. And I have to realize that you guys may not know what. What that means, but Masonry is very decentralized. So in Tennessee, there's the Grand Lodge of Tennessee. That is the supreme Masonic authority for Tennessee. There is no other group that tells Tennessee.

[Jay Dyer]

I thought there were no authorities or apostles. Members. Opening statement. We don't have apostles. We don't have authorities. There's no popes, but there's the Supreme Grand Lodge of Tennessee. That's the authority. Oops.

[John Kiriaku]

Yeah.

[Tristan Haggard]

Like, I like how he frames it. Like, I know you guys might not know, you know, you guys are not initiated.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, we're profane. We're retarded. Yeah, the.

[Tristan Haggard]

We're profane to you that there is no authority. It's very decentralized. But the grand authority.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly. The whole debate, the first. This whole first hour is just this over and over and over.

[Ryan Turbeval]

What can I can't.

You said there be no authorities. Now there's a.

[Tristan Haggard]

Did he make a face when he said that? Like, there has to be a facial twitch that goes along with him dropping that Grand Authority of Tennessee line because it's so blatantly contradicting the point he's trying to make. It's ridiculous.

[Jay Dyer]

He just kind of. There's. He kind of Keeps the same phase throughout the whole thing.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Supreme authority.

I'm talking within our structure.

[Jay Dyer]

So notice right here, I said, wait a minute. I thought there were no authorities, but there's supreme authority. So here we go.

[Moderator]

Only one other.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Yeah, there's just one.

We have what's called the ancient landmarks. Now, the landmarks can differ amongst jurisdiction. If I can give a step back just to we use Masonic terms. And I have to realize that you guys may not know what. What that means, but basically it's very decentralized. So in Tennessee, there's the Grand Lodge of Tennessee. That is the supreme Masonic authority for Tennessee. There is no other group that tells Tennessee what it can and can't do.

You said there being no authorities. Now there's a supreme authority.

I'm talking.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it. There we go.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Within our structure.

[Jay Dyer]

So of course we're talking about your structure. What are you doing? What are you talking about?

[Ryan Turbeval]

No authorities, or are there authorities?

I said no one man is an authority on Masonry.

There's no apostle, there's no authorities is what you said.

Yeah, I said no one. No one man is Albert Packey.

Well, apostle is plural, and then authorities is plural.

So there is a system of governments within Freemasonry. There are authorities, the Grand Lodge of

Tennessee, and there are Tennessee. So there's dogmas and authorities.

[Chase Geyser]

You have to keep in mind that I think we're. I think we're talking about authorities in two different senses. There's no. There's no theological or philosophical authority in Masonry. But in terms of organizational.

[Ryan Turbeval]

You have to believe in God. That would be theological. So that's nonsense.

[Chase Geyser]

I think that. I think that you're on the semantics run here.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Yeah, I think we're going in circle.

Are you serious?

[Chase Geyser]

Yeah, I'm serious.

[Ryan Turbeval]

How is that a semantics run? When he said you have to believe in God.

[Chase Geyser]

Yes, of course. You have to believe in God. And so there's a member, but there's no, like, human authority within the organization. David Page is the canon.

[Ryan Turbeval]

There is a dogma, and then there are authorities that recognize and do not recognize certain lodges. Right. There's irregular lodges.

[Chase Geyser]

You know, I think we've.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Are there irregular lodges?

[Chase Geyser]

Incredibly explicit in. In the claim that you have to believe in a Supreme Being in order to be a Mason. Because I think where we're disagreeing is on interpreting that or perceiving that as a dogma.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Oh, whatever term you want to use. If you don't like the word dogma,

it might be helpful.

[Moderator]

What is the orthodox. You want dogma? Dogma means that God leave this in

[Ryan Turbeval]

order to be orthodox.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Dogmas are beliefs that you cannot dispute or question. For example, the Nicene Creed for an Orthodox Christian would be something that you can't be a Christian and say, well, I don't believe in the deed of Christ or I don't believe in, you know, the teachings of, you know, Council of Nicaea, something like that. Those will be things that you couldn't question and still be a recognized member of the group. You would be seen as an Aryan

[Chase Geyser]

or so certainly if you did not believe or cease to believe in God, you would not be able to be a Mason.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Right.

So that was that argument, which was that there are dogmas, whether you want to call them that term or not. Because I can't be a Mason if I'm an atheist.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Unless we're at Grand Orient, Lord.

[Chase Geyser]

Correct.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Okay, so there are dogmas and that's theological.

[John Kiriaku]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

Belief in God is theological.

[Ryan Turbeval]

I believe. Your argument was that the words of Albert pike or dogma.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't argue that. I said the book is called the.

[Tristan Haggard]

The kind of line of argumentation that ends up happening with these Masons is pretty much the same as Protestants in general about normal authority. You know, it's really.

[Jay Dyer]

That's exactly where the debate goes.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yep. They're so spiritually united and it's. I mean, it's no surprise that Masonry and the kind of age of enlightenment erupted after the kind of, you know, the pestilence of the Reformation. So, yeah, that's just, that's something that comes to mind here is how. What kind of their.

[Jay Dyer]

No, they, they consistently throughout the debate will reference the Protestant principles of nobody can bind my conscience and we're free to accept or reject, you know, all kinds of stuff that we want. And I'm like, well, then how does that square with the supreme jurisdictional authority

[Ryan Turbeval]

of the Grand Lodge stuff, if you're deaf?

Again, you misunderstood the argument when I brought up. When I brought up, you said there was no dog.

[Chase Geyser]

Let us, let us just concede that there is the dogma in Freemasonry that you have to believe in a supreme being.

[Ryan Turbeval]

But that. And see, but that's not. The beliefs of Albert pike or Albert pike is irrelevant.

[Jay Dyer]

I can go to another one of

[Ryan Turbeval]

these guys and I'm just going to make the same argument and say.

And I would make the same argument that there is. No, you're not listening.

It's a presuppositional argument about the claim that there's no dogmas. And I Asked you, is it a dogma that there are no dogmas? That's a philosophical argument. Doesn't anything to do with Albert Pike. Is it a dogma that there's no dogmas?

I guess again, we're. We're just arguing words.

No, it's a philosophical argument. You don't understand it. I'll be mean. I'm so. You don't understand.

I understand it. I just.

Okay, what's.

[Chase Geyser]

There is no. There is no dogma in Freemasonry that individual members cannot have their own dogma.

[Ryan Turbeval]

So it's a subjectivist and relativist. Because if I can have my own dogma, can I have a dogma that I'm a Satanist and I'm a Mason?

No.

So, so then it's dogma.

I can get into. To the landmarks and some of that, if you would like.

[Moderator]

Yeah, that's actually, that's a good.

[Chase Geyser]

That's.

[Moderator]

Yeah, we kind of exhaust.

[Chase Geyser]

I'm not trying to answer around you. I'm just trying to.

[Ryan Turbeval]

I think again, so.

[Jay Dyer]

And I don't mean to cut you off, D.J.

[Ryan Turbeval]

but like, I'm not trying to play a word game.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Ryan Turbeval]

When I was. If I debated an atheist, I would make the same line of argument to say if a subjectivist or a relativist says there are no absolute truths.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Ryan Turbeval]

And if I respond to that guy, I would say, is it an absolute

[Jay Dyer]

truth that there are no absolute truths?

[Chase Geyser]

Yeah, only that is believe in absolutes, which is.

[Jay Dyer]

And that.

[Ryan Turbeval]

But that is not a word game. It's a philosophical argument where you're doing a critique of the person's paradigm and saying that that statement itself is a logical contradiction. So it's not a word game. It's not about semantics. It's a question of you can't say that there are no dogma.

[Chase Geyser]

I see what you're trying.

[Ryan Turbeval]

And yeah, it's dogmatic that you have to believe there's no dogmas. That was the question.

[Moderator]

Do you want to respond to that? I'll change topics if not. But you just said.

[Chase Geyser]

No, no, it's okay. I, I understand what you're trying to say. I would, I would say that the, the organization of Freemasonry does not prohibit people from having their own dogma. It just doesn't take a position on so many of them now. It has its own dogmas in the sense that you have to believe in a supreme being. There's ancient landmark kind of rules and requirements associated with the fraternity.

[Ryan Turbeval]

You can't be an atheist.

[John Kiriaku]

Right.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Can Be a Satan?

No, no.

[Moderator]

So I thought you had to be a monotheist.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Ryan Turbeval]

What if I'm a monotheistic Satanist?

Yeah. So there's. Again.

No, I'm serious.

Yeah, yeah.

There are people that.

Can I finish my thought on the dictional and authority? So. So it's decentralized. You have in Tennessee, the Grand Lodge of Tennessee in America. Every state has its own Grand Lodge. The rest of the world, it's usually. Every country has a Grand Lodge, but there is no overarching body. There's no Grand Lodge of America, no Grand Lodge of the World. It's decentralized. Decentralized. So while it's mostly the same, you will see small jurisdictional differences. I can only speak to Tennessee and some of the ones that I'm familiar with, but.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, sure. By the way, you guys feel free to break in any point in Masonry.

[John Kiriaku]

Is. Is there a lot of kind of reactionary to Papism or something? Because.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[John Kiriaku]

It seems like this keeps coming up.

[Jay Dyer]

It is correct. Absolutely.

[John Kiriaku]

This kind of straw man that they're like attacking the papal strong.

[Jay Dyer]

No. I mean, yeah. Centuries of Freemasonry are positioned against the papacy. So. Absolutely. 100. And that's why he. I think he immediately went to. Oh, you must mean that Albert pike is like the Pope of Masonry. I didn't say that. I just said, is it a dogma that there's no dogma. Dogmas. Right. So what I'm doing in the debate is establishing first there are dogmas and there are authorities. And then I'm going to move into getting them to admit that it's a religious commitment and not just a secular civic commitment. And once they eventually admit all those three points, then they can't have the argument anymore that Masonry is neutral and doesn't commit you to anything theological. That's how. That's where I'm going in the debate. And it takes a while, but I think I eventually do demonstrate that. And that means then that they try

[Tristan Haggard]

and take this line of argumentation that essentially it's the individual. It's the individual that is the authority. Like, can you. The ultimate authority of Masonry and every other Mason is. Is it. It almost seems. I mean, they try to make that.

[Jay Dyer]

No, that's what they do. In fact. No, that's what they do. And then they argue that because they personally are Trinitarian Christians, they can personally continue to maintain their trinitarian Christian faith, but be part of a brotherhood that doesn't require them to have religious commitments. At which point I say, yeah, but that itself is a denial of the Trinity. Because now you're saying that we can have a religious commitment to a non religious, religious society, which is. That's the argument I make.

[Tristan Haggard]

It's actually an interesting debate because it shows how these beliefs of like, you know, the hyper individualism of the Enlightenment.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[Tristan Haggard]

How the vehicle for the, the enshrining of all these Enlightenment principles in the world was largely Freemasonry. Right.

[Alex Jones (clip)]

Yep.

[Tristan Haggard]

But then also Protestantism being the, the midwife of the Age of Enlightenment and all of these kind of orders, but they all just kind of collapse into one thing that like the worldviews kind of collapse into each other and really just come down to almost the, you know, the solipsist of, of like post modernity. So it's like this, these are the forces right here that just, that gave you post modernity and like just total relativism and complete, you know, zero rudder, zero center of gravity of meaning in the world. And like this, it really, Protestantism itself is, is just this pads Freemasonry in so many ways.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely. In fact, the debate really, even beyond the question of authorities, it actually ends up being a debate about neutrality because their whole argument rests on there being theory, neutral religious claims. Right. Like natural, basically just natural theology. They don't know that it's natural theology, but that's essentially what this debate ends up being about. And you guys might think, oh, this just ends up being stupid. It's not worth it. There's actually a few points where now I don't think they at all win. I think they get absolutely demolished. But they are, they do actually bring out a couple clever points. Actually one of the more clever retorts that they have towards the end of the debate is, is from somebody in the audience asked the question, which I think was a. I give them one point for a clever retort which was, Jay, if I followed your line of argument, then you also would be denying your own standards when you say the Pledge of Allegiance, because that was written by Francis Key, who was like a socialist. So if you say I believe in one nation under God, you would be violating your arguments throughout this debate. And for like one split second I was like, that's actually pretty, pretty clever retort. However, it's not equivalent because it's not. Masonry is a religious initiation. And that's what I established in the first part of the debate, saying the Pledge of Allegiance and me interpreting the God there as the triune God, because that's my belief. That's not denying I'm not required by saying the Pledge of Allegiance to believe in an ecumenist principle to join Masonry. You are. And that's why the religious initiation oath aspect of Masonry is not equivalent to saying the Pledge of Allegiance. But I will give them for one, one small point for that clever retort. And towards the end of the debate, Chase jumps onto that. Like he said, oh, we finally got Dyer. We got him. And then as I explain the difference, I think they realized that wasn't that good of an argument.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Actually, as it's phrased in Tennessee and most jurisdictions will be pretty similar to this. You have to have a belief in a supreme Being. And the accountability. No, excuse me, a Supreme Being to whom all men are accountable. Within that requirement, obviously we have our own teachings. So a Supreme Being, under I think most Satanists definition, do not consider Satan to be the Supreme Being.

[Jay Dyer]

The whole part of this theistic Satan argument is to show that as they start making qualifiers to what type of supreme being is allowed, they're making all kinds of theological commitments. And that's what they didn't realize. And so that's why I started doing this is I just start listing all these absurd quote, supreme being beliefs, which shows that there's no such thing as a generic Supreme Being. It doesn't exist. And I prove that by every time I come up with a ridiculous example, it's. It's to illustrate that, oh, actually you guys have all kinds of disqualifiers and theological commitments that you didn't admit in your opening statement.

[Ryan Turbeval]

He is. And you know, I'm not an authority on Satanism, but I. The another Masonic teaching or dogma, if you will, Jay, is, is that this Supreme Being is a creator God. That's. That's the supreme architect of the universe. So Satan, I mean, they don't even

[Jay Dyer]

realize that the word architect already has all kinds of baggage packed into it.

[John Kiriaku]

I was just gonna say that. Yeah, so in some sense it could be a deistic impersonal God, but how can you be responsible to impersonal force?

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly, exactly.

[John Kiriaku]

I'm responsible to this rock.

[Jay Dyer]

And it's all the same arguments that we have about natural theology.

[Tristan Haggard]

Yeah.

[Ryan Turbeval]

As far as I know, no Satanist claims that Satan is a creator. Beyond that, again, it is a system of morality. There's just certain morals.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, there are theistic satanic groups that could believe that set is the Creator. Sure, why not Gnostics? Right. This world's created by a fallen being

[Ryan Turbeval]

and values within Satanism that would not be compatible with the moral teachings of Freemasonry.

Yeah, go ahead, go ahead, Jay. Yeah, so first of all, the Temple of Set, as an example is a theistic satanic group. Michael Aquino, who was the famous.

[Chase Geyser]

Did you say deistic or the theistic Satanist group?

[Ryan Turbeval]

Michael Aquino was the famous army colonel who drew up the army's psychological warfare teachings in his writings about black magic and using that for psyops. And his is an example of a sect that has had prominent people as

[Jay Dyer]

its, as its members where they believe

[Ryan Turbeval]

that the Supreme Being is in fact Satan. So my point here is to say that when you say that I can be a Freemason, I just have to be, quote, a theist. The absurdity is obvious in that there's no such thing as generic theism. There's such a thing as a. Oh, well, it's just a creator. Well, okay, what if I think Satan is the creator? That's the absurdity of this. And that's why your, your lodges allow Muslims, Hindus, Jews, people of all types of religious persuasions to be joined together in a fraternity under some aegis that you say is just simply a philosophy. It's not simply a philosophy when we have a whole bunch of people joining together in an idea that does include theological terminology, which you already admitted, so to say. So you guys keep saying two things out of the same different size of your mouth. It's like, oh, it's just a philosopher's returning. Oh, but we actually have all these theological principles that you have to hold to. So I mean, can I be. Why can't I be a Satanist and a monotheist? If you don't have dogmas beyond a higher power, sounds like you're qualifying and tacking on more dogmas.

[John Kiriaku]

Sure.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Why?

[Chase Geyser]

There's a couple of points that come to mind. The first point that comes to mind is in your introduction you mentioned the, of course, incompatibility of Freemason with Christianity because of the philosophy and ethos of Freemasonry being just genuinely incompatible with the philosophy theology of Christianity. And I would say that the philosophy or theology of Satanism and almost all, if not all of its manifestations is inherently incompatible with the principles values of Masonry.

[Jay Dyer]

But the principles and values of Masonry are that you as an individual determine what subjective reality and truth is, which is the essence of, of Satanism. That's exactly the argument that I make.

[Chase Geyser]

The second thing that I would say is regardless of the technical acceptance of somebody of that persuasion into the fraternity, in a practical manner, it would virtually never Happen because you have to have unanimous consent to have a new member.

[Jay Dyer]

They think I'm worried with the mechanics of a Satanist getting in. They don't even understand I'm making a philosophical argument to show that you actually have a bunch of theological commitments I don't care about. Satan is sneaking into your lodge. That's not the point. The point is you're having all of these theological commitments at the same time as saying we don't have theological commitment

[Chase Geyser]

shaded into a lodge. And I can't. I mean, I'm sure you could find obscure examples. There's probably examples of people who are Satanists that have been members of clandestine lodges, which is irregular lodges, not recognized by any of the official grand lodges of the world. But I don't, I don't, I don't. I can't imagine a scenario in which a Satanist would be allowed into. Into a lodge explicitly admitting that he's a Satanist.

[Jay Dyer]

Real quick, though.

[Moderator]

What exactly would a Satanist if a monotheist, what requirement would they be breaking where they couldn't enter? Yeah, if they were a monotheist. So they got through that hurdle. But what would be stopping them specifically as a. Would it just be the other members accepting them in, or would there actually be a principle in which they're violating?

[Ryan Turbeval]

Exactly, yeah. At least here, like, it's explicit that we say we don't allow Satanists. Oh, oh.

[Moderator]

So that actually is a.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Okay, we've not allowed. We've only had one ever apply for membership with my lodge. And he denied.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, this would be refuted beyond these,

[Ryan Turbeval]

like, base level ref requirements. The way you join us would be

[Jay Dyer]

refuting all the points that he made in his opening statement. So you see that as they begin to actually explain things, they have quite a few dogmas, don't they, Lodge?

[Ryan Turbeval]

You, you petition. It's a simply an application. There's an interview process. A lot of times there's a group that will go to your home, meet with you, meet with your.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, their whole point in this was to sell masonry. Like, they're like marketing masonry. And, And I'm like, okay, yeah, I get it that you like it. You have all these marketing sales pitches. But, like, when are you going to address the arguments that are being made?

[Ryan Turbeval]

There's an investigation, there's a background check, there's a interview amongst. In front of the lodging. And different lodges can have, like, slightly different processes in all of this. But, but you have these, you know, base level requirements and then the lodge itself is doing its own Investigation into your moral character and whether or not you're fit, essentially. And we're not supposed to be. We are exclusive, but we're not exclusive.

[Jay Dyer]

What's the basis for the moral character? Character? That's what I ask him a little bit later.

[Ryan Turbeval]

It's based off of race, religion or, you know, socioeconomics or stuff like that. But ultimately it does come down to character. And I would certainly argue that a Satanist is not of the character to be a Freemason.

So the point was not are there

[Jay Dyer]

Satanists getting into Masonic lodges?

[Ryan Turbeval]

It was an example that was used to try to illustrate the ambiguity and the absurdity of saying that there's no dogmas and we're not theological. Oh, but you have to believe in theism. Oh, but it's not the Satanist. So now we're beginning to see that their beginning opening statement was not true.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Ryan Turbeval]

They started qualifying all the things that they really mean by the terms. And when Chase said that, you know, one reason that we wouldn't accept the Satanist is because of the teachings of Masonry or antithetical to Satanism. Well, according to Albert pike, as we've already seen today, as an example, not an authority, but an example, he says, and these people agreed that no one is over you. No one determines truth for you. Truth is something that you determine and you can decide what the teachings are and still be a Mason. So that's a subjectivism and relativism that I do is absolutely think is the problem in Masonry.

[Chase Geyser]

Can I push back real quick? I don't mean to interrupt you. I want you to finish your thought.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Chase Geyser]

When I hear the term.

[Jay Dyer]

He didn't let me finish that. I was going to say that's Satanic. So the very principle that pike lays out is the number one dogma of Masonry is itself a satanic principle.

[Chase Geyser]

Subjectivism. To say that something is subjective, the way that I interpret that is like a subjectivist believes that everything is subjective. And I think there's a distinction between arguing for subjectivism and having a subjective philosophy.

[Tristan Haggard]

Right.

[Chase Geyser]

So like, like pike isn't arguing that whatever you believe is true for you in the sense of like a contemporary modern day subjective.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. But he does say that you can determine the theology however you want. So it is relativism. Subjectivist.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Can I quote him?

[Chase Geyser]

You go ahead.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Is our duty always to press forward, though absolute truth is unattainable?

[Jay Dyer]

The Masonry strives towards the light.

[Moderator]

Yeah.

[Ryan Turbeval]

So there's no absolute truth. Apparently.

[Chase Geyser]

I, I think that saying that something is unattainable is not the same thing as saying that it doesn't exist. I think it's unattainable for us to go to Pluto today. But I believe that Pluto exists.

[Ryan Turbeval]

How is it unattainable if it exists?

[Chase Geyser]

That's a good question.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it could argue with human limitation. That is the problem.

[Chase Geyser]

Yeah, I think. I think he's probably. I haven't read that. The context around that specific passage, so I can't speak for Pike.

[Jay Dyer]

What's that?

[John Kiriaku]

That. That's the John Hicks perennialism.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[John Kiriaku]

So when they say attainable, it's. It's. I mean, unattainable. That's what they're referring to. It's like, oh, the truth and gods behind the veil.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[John Kiriaku]

That's all John Hicks perennialism.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[John Kiriaku]

Which we all know that Masonry's perennial.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Chase Geyser]

But he's probably arguing that in our. In our state as humans, where we don't have the capacity to attain or understand absolute truth.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Well, I mean, three of the pillars of brotherly love.

[Jay Dyer]

So this is where I highlight how antithetical it is to what they're supposed to believe as Christians. Right. As Christians, you believe Jesus is the way, the truth and life. He is absolute truth incarnate. And I'm pointing out that you can't say that you believe John 14:6 and at the same time say there is no absolute truth.

[Ryan Turbeval]

That's unattainable belief and truth, it's not objective. Like truth is a core value.

[Chase Geyser]

What do you mean, Jay?

[Tristan Haggard]

That.

[Chase Geyser]

That can't be said.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Oh, and from a philosophical perspective, critiquing this in terms of the argumentation, to say that. That there are no dogmas because there

[Jay Dyer]

are no absolute truths.

[Ryan Turbeval]

That's the context of where he's saying this. He says, for example, perfect, perfect truth is not attainable anywhere. That's antithetical to Christian theology. When Jesus says, I'm the way, the truth and the life, and certainly God and Jesus are perfection in terms of truth. So for Albert pike to say that this, to say this, that's a subjectivist, relativist line of argumentation.

[Jay Dyer]

And I'm arguing.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Let me finish this argument because this was what I was trying to argue a minute ago when you said that Satanism is antithetical to Masonry. I'm saying that Albert Pike's subjectivism here, that there's no truth that's ultimate or absolute, that we can't know it and we can't obtain it. And you can determine the philosophies, as you said a minute ago.

[Chase Geyser]

But he doesn't say that there's no absolute truth. He just says the absolute truth is unattainable.

[Ryan Turbeval]

Okay, well then nobody's attained to it. So you can say theoretically that it

[Jay Dyer]

exists, but nobody has it.

[Ryan Turbeval]

It still, it still doesn't defeat the point that nobody has perfect truth or absolute truth. So maybe it's out there, but it doesn't exist and we don't have it. Fine, cast it however you want. That's still satanic in principle.

[Chase Geyser]

So I mean even the fact that Albert pike in that sentence is saying that absolute truth is unattainable is implicitly stating that Freemasonry makes no claims to have absolute truth.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, is it absolutely true that absolute truth is unattainable? Let's go back to precept 101, right? They keep skirting the point that I'm making and trying to make this into some game and it's not a game.

[Chase Geyser]

Okay, so actually the island, the Bible

[Ryan Turbeval]

and truth and Christ don't have absolute truth.

[Chase Geyser]

Well, you don't understand.