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Jay'sAnalysis
Is The Enlightenment/Liberal Ethos Collapsing? Jay Dyer & Owen Shroyer
00:44:06
Owen and I discuss the present state of media, Trump and whether the Classical Liberal ethos is dying relation to Americansm. Owen is here https://www.youtube.com/@OwenReport Superchats at any time here: https://streamlabs.com/jaydyer/tip Join this...
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- [00:01]
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Owen Shroyer
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- [00:45]
Jay Dyer
All right, what's up, everybody? Today I've got Owen Schroyer. I haven't seen or talked to Owen in probably a couple years. I think I was there in studio a couple years ago and we had maybe a year and a half. We did a good chat about pop culture, esoterism, the occult, all of that. And Owen is joining me again after a pretty wild past few weeks. In fact, Owen got a haircut and went viral. And the whole Internet, it was a
- [01:12]
Owen Shroyer
hair dye, a hair dying.
- [01:13]
Jay Dyer
Okay.
- [01:14]
Owen Shroyer
I think that they want a cut.
- [01:16]
Jay Dyer
And so the whole Internet. You know what's funny is you start to realize after a while, you know, when you're. If you're very serious about the political and this kind of stuff, most people are more interested in the color of the hair dye than they are about your politics. Did you feel that way at all?
- [01:33]
Owen Shroyer
Well, yeah, I think I totally proved it. And you know, when you look at the. When you look at that video that went viral, nobody was addressing what I actually said. Now, look, in fairness, I'll admit my hair looked a little crazy. I had just gotten out of the pool and then I was doing yard work all day. So I hadn't, yeah, know, I hadn't prepared my hair for a video, but. But whatever, okay, the hair looked crazy, but nobody was addressing what I actually said. And I think that that kind of proves the point that you're making here is that, hey, this whole story goes viral over, over some guy's hair looking crazy. But you didn't actually address what was said. And I had so many people that kind of reached out that are also in political media and they were just like, dude, this is crazy, because there was other news that day, right? And they're like, dude, how is it that people are more obsessed with your hair color than they are about the actual news? Of the day. I mean, I couldn't believe it. We were the top trend. My hair was the top trend for like half of the day. The first half of the day it was the Russians climbing the Empire State Building. And then the second half of the day it was, it was Shroyer's hair. And so a bunch of people in the political media were just like, know, hey, whatever. I agreed with some of what you said. Maybe I disagreed with some of it. But dude, why are people obsessed with your hair? And I think that you just, you just answered the question. There's so many people, and I don't even know if we can call it the media. Jay. I don't know what you would want to call it, but Rush Limbaugh always kind of warned, like, what's going to happen when social media takes over and everybody thinks they're a professional media person. But hey, I'm all for free speech. You know, we can all get a platform. But yeah, there's a difference between somebody that actually does the work and, and somebody that just shows up and does a drive by presentation. And so I think that we got a lot of that. I think that we saw a lot of that as well. And now, you know, 10, 10 million impressions later, still nobody wants to address what I said, but they're still talking about the hair.
- [03:35]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, I mean, I don't, I've not had that level of a viral experience with.
- [03:40]
Owen Shroyer
Would you like. I can give you some advice. I can send you a wig.
- [03:43]
Jay Dyer
In fact, are you gonna send me some of that Eminem hair dye? Dude, I'm gonna get my.
- [03:47]
Owen Shroyer
I used to have to do this. I used to have to do this
- [03:50]
Jay Dyer
to do the Trump wig.
- [03:52]
Owen Shroyer
Okay, yeah, I used to have to do the Trump wig, but now I kind of got the. It's a little, you know, it. Maybe it needs a little work there.
- [03:57]
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- [03:58]
Owen Shroyer
Probably the best hair.
- [04:00]
Jay Dyer
Very beautiful.
- [04:00]
Owen Shroyer
He's got it going on. I don't like what he says.
- [04:04]
Jay Dyer
I like him.
- [04:05]
Owen Shroyer
Not so much anymore.
- [04:06]
Jay Dyer
Probably the worst guy on the Internet.
- [04:08]
Owen Shroyer
The hair's good though. Kind of like that.
- [04:12]
Jay Dyer
I've done debates recently and it's funny because. Or even did an interview with Kat Von D. And like half of the chat is talking about my socks because I was wearing like grandpa socks that day.
- [04:23]
Owen Shroyer
And they must be great socks then.
- [04:24]
Jay Dyer
I mean, they, they were grandpa socks. And I, I unabashedly wear, you know, like boomer beas level grandpa socks. And so my wife is in there cracking up because of the Bea Socks. I had on diabetes socks. And then that's like half of the conversation about that.
- [04:39]
Owen Shroyer
I got a rebel.
- [04:41]
Jay Dyer
A rebel tooth. So half of the comments will be about this errant revolutionary tooth I have that's going its own way.
- [04:47]
Owen Shroyer
You've got a dissonant tooth.
- [04:48]
Jay Dyer
I have a dissonant tooth. And yeah, I learned that media is. Is funny because what you're talking about is about 30% and how you look is about 60. So anyway, it's emblematic too, perhaps of some of the tweets that you've had in the past few weeks, few, few months, going back a little bit, because you kind of expressed a bit of disdain or distaste with the American political process. And I don't again, want to picture you as black pill. I'm not black pilled. I just haven't really cared a lot about national politics other than sort of the, you know, fun that you can have commenting on it. To me, it's kind of a dog and pony show. What would you say accurately expresses kind of your feelings about politics at this point? Are you. Are you black pill, perhaps?
- [05:40]
Owen Shroyer
Well, I think it's pretty. It's, you know, it's really complex. And I think that part of the other issue that we deal with is people try to pretend like everything is black and white when most stuff is. Is somewhere in between, somewhere in the gray. And so you kind of have to, like, find different ways to express that, you know? The one other thing I'll say before I answer that question, though is, and I think that this is something you and I, you and I probably have in common. That's why we can have conversations like this. You know, I don't take myself too seriously in that I don't really care if you want to make fun of me. Like, I. It doesn't b. It's fun. If you can't laugh at yourself, you're missing out.
- [06:17]
Jay Dyer
Well, I mean, you can't do what we do unless you have to. I mean, you got to be.
- [06:20]
Owen Shroyer
Exactly. You got to have a tough chin. And, and quite frankly, people roasting me on the Internet is like nothing compared to, you know, what I've dealt with in politics. So that's like, you know, that's barely even a bonus.
- [06:31]
Jay Dyer
You've been in the big house, dog.
- [06:33]
Owen Shroyer
I've been in the big house. I've had guns pointed at me. So it's just like, yeah, okay, whatever. People want to roast me. Have fun. Roast away. That's fun. We can all have a good laugh. But I think what it, to me, what it expressed was that it was, it was really pure projection. And it was like all of this stuff that people are, you know, coming at me with is really just some, some things that they're feeling, they're coming up short on or some self consciousness issues that they might have because they really thought it would get under my skin. And it didn't day one, so they tried it day two. I didn't day two, so they tried it day three. And then I think the fourth of July weekend finally kind of calmed it down. But the meme will live forever. But to get to your question, Jay, you know, I'm definitely not black pilled in, in so far as I love life, I love life, I love America. I get joy out of every day that I wake up and, and go about my day and I get to see the sun, whatever. I get to drive a car I like. It's like, you know, I still love life. It's not about being black pilled for life, but when it comes to politics, you can call it whatever you want. Black pill, doomerism, put whatever name on it. I just call it being a realist is what I call it. And there's so many different angles, there's so many different avenues. I think the easiest one, as far as, you know, what can people consume, what is palatable, what is easy to understand. You just take issues and you say, okay, why did I support Trump? Well, I wanted no new wars. Well, we got new wars. Why did I support Trump? I wanted to see doge cuts come close to a trillion or $2 trillion. That's what I wanted to see. Well, okay, we're not getting the Doge cuts.
- [08:05]
Katie Duke
All right.
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Owen Shroyer
I wanted to see accountability for the Epstein client list. Well, now I'm told there is no client list. There's nothing to see here. So you kind of get the. I can go on and on. I was told we'd get mass deportations. We're not getting mass deportations. I would told, I was told there'd be accountability for the deep state. The people that did political persecution, political imprisonment, used an auto pen for a presidential signature. We're not getting any of that. So to me, this is just simple. This is the black and white of here are the issues and here, here's what's happening with these issues. And so that to me is just like, okay, are you getting what you voted for or not? And it's simple. For me, the answer is, no, I'm not. Now, I think that where we get into Kind of the gray area when you do, when you do political coverage, people often mistake description for endorsement. And so I'll just be covering news and somebody will say, oh, you're endorsing this? And I'm saying, no, I'm just covering news. And so then it's like you cover a news story and somehow they attach that to you permanently, like that's something that you endorsed or support. It's like, no, no, I'm just, I'm just trying to cover news here. If I offer opinion, that's different, what opinion did I express? And then they can't answer because I didn't express an opinion. I just covered a news story.
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- [09:18]
Owen Shroyer
So where, so where does that get us? I feel like I'm not, I'm not upset as much because President Trump has betrayed us. I mean, to me, I look at that as par for the course. I've had corrupt presidents my entire life.
- [09:33]
Jay Dyer
Sure.
- [09:33]
Owen Shroyer
I've had corrupt politicians my entire life. DC has been corrupt my entire life. So it's like, okay, whatever. Trump ended up being another corrupt president in my view. So that's par for the course. I think what really, I think what really black pills me. If there's anything that's black pilling to me, it's that what was once the MAGA movement. What's what, what was once the MAGA coalition. It's like we thought we were so above this. It's like I thought MAGA was closer to Jay Dyer writing esoteric Hollywood than they are to, hey, Iran has a nuclear weapon, they're two weeks away. Right. It's like I thought that the right wing and mag up was getting closer to understanding, you know, the, the real stuff. And it turns out they're right back to the exact same Bush propaganda that they fell for for the entire 2000s. And, and I thought that we all understood that. That's why we voted Trump, even Trump expressed that. So to me, that's kind of where the black pilling for me is. Jay, it's not necessarily that politics is corrupt. It's not necessarily that. I mean, I'm definitely enjoying life. So it's not I'm black pilled on life. It's just I thought the people, I thought we really gained a lot of ground with the people. I thought the people's consciousness, intellect. I thought we got so far, especially on the right wing with the, with, you know, the MAGA movement and everything it was supposed to represent. And now here we are and, you know, I'm listening to Trump speak Today. And he's like, yeah, we wasted all our time negotiating with Iran. And it's like, dude, that's half your administration. Like you just admitted you just wasted the first two years of your administration trying to deal with the Middle east, something you promised you wouldn't do. And now what are you going to do? Now you have to spend the next two years fighting a war, it looks like. And so, ok, that's corrupt politics. And then I see all the MAGA people that used to chant no new wars. And then I see all the MAGA people that used to talk about bringing the troops home and stop all the foreign aid and foreign entanglements and now they support it and now they're cheering it on and telling me I'm crazy for being principled. That's what was blackpilling to me, I think, is that I thought the people had made such bigger strides. I thought that the people made such a bigger leap to understanding the political issues and then actually becoming principled when, when discussing them. And it turns out it's just like, I don't know if you can put a number on it, but I think you see it, you see it just like everybody else. There are so many people that are just willing to say, hey, Trump said that. Then I liked it, now he's saying the opposite. I like that too. And it's just like, I can't relate to that. That's black pilling.
- [12:03]
Jay Dyer
Well, it reminds me of the Ron Paul period because I was like when Ron was on the scene, that's when I was kind of in that libertarian era phase of the rise of Tea Party. And you know, the idea even then was we can co, op, you know, the normative traditional political process of voting and all this kind of stuff. And even at that time everybody saw, you know, how easily Ron Paul was squeezed out of the debates and just ignored. And that was, that was all it took back then. But that was a wake up call, I think to a lot of us active at politics at that time that like politics at a national level especially is, you know, the game of billionaires. Adelsons. Right? I mean it's, it's massive amounts of money that's very difficult to have much of an effect in unless you're at that level of an Adelson or a Peter, Peter Thiel or you know, people with billions of dollars to play with because you've got so much lobbying. And like you said, I think the thought process was we can get people on the Trump train to stand on principles rather than my team. That dude's my team. Right. And I think you would see this coming from the sports world. It's really no different than the sports world, the way people treat being part of a political party or on the team of some dude as a cult of personality. And like you, I've always hoped every time this stuff comes around that maybe now we can finally convince more and more of the audience to be viewing this stuff on the basis of principles, not on cult of personality. And it just seems like there's something in human nature, fallen human nature, I guess, that makes them immediately want to go back to, well, I'm going to be on this team because I need my team when the only way we're ever going to get out of this is to actually identify what the real problems are, like foreign influence on our government. Like, you know, the stuff that unfortunately, Trump failed on in the last couple years. But why is it you think human beings just have this tendency to immediately, like you said, go right back into, well, I'm with that guy, and I'm gonna do what that guy says no matter what, because he's our guy, even when the guy does the very opposite of what he just said. What do you think that is?
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- [14:57]
Owen Shroyer
Prices may be higher for delivery. Well, I think there's a couple different directions that this goes. I would ask, I wonder how many of these individuals we are describing here. I wonder how many of them drink fluoride and I wonder how many of them took a Covid shot. You know, these are just things that might give us a. Give us an idea of what we're dealing with. I do think that there's one kind of. There's one unique factor to this phenomenon, which is, you know, Trump became so popular, there was really nothing like It. I mean, Obama. Obama had a level to it, but Obama wasn't a brand, right? Like, Obama didn't have a brand. A hat, you know, a store. It was popular, but it wasn't like Trump branded. So Trump became so popular, and it became such a brand that all of these people kind of popped up. And, you know, I watched this happen from 2016, really, from 2015 on, all of these different people started popping up. And really, they just kind of created an entire online brand off of Trump, off of maga. They created a business model even they sell.
- [16:08]
Jay Dyer
Sneako was a Trump MAGA dude at one point. Hootin. Sneako's fake as hell, but, like, even SNEO rode the Trump wave, so.
- [16:16]
Owen Shroyer
So. Exactly. So everybody wanted to be a part of that, right? Everybody kind of wanted to be a part of that. That momentum and that wave. And this happens anytime there's a winner. Just look at, you know, how many people went out and bought a U.S. soccer jersey last month that has never watched a soccer game before in their life. You know, so that's kind of the psychology that you're getting into. But I do think the unique factor is that really, Jay, they. They. They're anchored to Trump, right? I mean, their. Their business model is anchored to Trump. It's anchored to maga, it's anchored to the brand. And so they really don't have a choice. They can't break away from it. They're. They're anchored to it. It's part of who they are. It's part of what they are. It's their Persona. It's their business model. And whether it's a conscious thing that they realize that or not, I do think that that's going on. And. And there was a. There was a real telltale moment for me just over a year ago where I really kind of started to, you know, turn my heel, let's say, in the political world. They started saying, oh, you'll come running back to Trump. That was. That was the moment to me when I realized, oh, this is not the movement I was in. This is a cult now. I can't relate to that at all. You know, you talk about the psychology of this. I can't relate to it. I don't think you or I can really relate to that psychology. And that was kind of the moment where I realized I was like, oh, this is different now. This is not what I was a part of. This is not what I fought for. This is like a cult. You'll come running back to Trump. I'm like, well, first of all, I don't even know what that means. A, I'm not even sure exactly what that means, but B, I understand the interpretation is, oh, everybody here just exists because of Trump, because that's why they're here. The only reason they're here existing is because of Trump. And they don't understand. I was here long before Trump. I was in media long before Trump. Really, the first election I was in the media for would have been Obama, but I was here before Trump. I want to be here after Trump, ok? And so that's how I approach things. So there is no running back to Trump. But that was like the moment where I realized I was like, oh, that's how you guys view this. And then you start to kind of get into more of these conversations and you realize everything really does revolve around Trump. Here's another example, Jay. I go out for 4th of July. I mean, like, this is so radical, right? I went to a baseball game on the 4th of July with friends and family. I mean, wow, Jay. And, and so I post, I made a post on X, like, 4th of July at the baseball game with the kids and the fireworks. This is awesome, man. This is America. This is great. Fourth of July baseball. Right on. And here come the, Here come the replies. Thank Trump for that. That Trump is there. And I'm just like, what are you talking about? Like, baseball didn't exist before Trump was president.
- [19:03]
Jay Dyer
It sounds like North Korea. Like, the stuff they would say about, like, Kim Jong Un, like, you have to wake up and have your bowl of cereal and you thank the Dear Leader for the sun coming up and giving you cereal.
- [19:12]
Owen Shroyer
You're, like, polishing the picture. Yeah. So it was like, those were, those are some of the moments where I'm like, this isn't about. This isn't a political movement. This isn't anything I can relate to or anything I want to get involved in. This is, this is projecting, pure cult
- [19:26]
Jay Dyer
right now that nothing has existed for in America. Politics is kind of the ultimate kind of civics. Religion, maybe next to that or equal to it is like sports ball. And, you know, people want to watch sports, that's fine. But like, I think in America, the problem is that these, these things kind of become weird religious idols and they treat it like it's sacrosanct. I remember years ago, like in the 2000s, I didn't vote because I was like, I don't really care about McCain or Obama. I don't, I don't vote. And I would have, like, Boomer family members being like, how dare you. Don't vote, son.
- [20:02]
Owen Shroyer
That's irreligious.
- [20:04]
Jay Dyer
You're not being American. But we've come to this point where we realize now that all the mythology of the Boomer worldview, the Boomer mindset, the Boomer mind matrix, is kind of all collapsing. And that includes the idea that voting is real, that it's not all fake and gay, that the party politics. I mean, I know we know about the duopoly being faking gay, but I mean, it's almost like a lot of America's hallowed traditions and mythologies are breaking. Do you think the Boomer mind matrix is breaking?
- [20:38]
Owen Shroyer
I think that. How do you, like, how do you put that into a concept? The, the thing that I say is maybe you take one issue, you take the war in Iran. Here's an issue that is clearly unpopular, right? Here's an issue that if you put it to just a vote, let's say this was a democratic operation and they said, all right, America, vote. Do you want to go to a war with Iran? The vast majority of the country would vote no. I'd say at a minimum 60%, maybe even close to 80%. But the, the majority would obviously vote against the war. And yet we always end up in the wars. And so there's this disconnect between what the vast majority of the country wants and then what the government does every time, which is against the wishes of the country. So it's like we kind of keep going through these cycles and it builds that crevasse. It kind of builds that phenomenon that you're talking about. And maybe, you know, you talk about the Boomer matrix. I think that that's kind of like, it's like that's what's being. It does seem like everything that they're clinging on to is from that matrix, right? Whether it's the foreign policy in the Middle east, whether it' foreign policy with Russia, whether it's the, oh, you know,
- [21:44]
Jay Dyer
millennials, Gen Z, you just did that Boomer debate. Didn't you just do like a three on three Boomer debate? Yeah, yeah, like that. You, you would know firsthand from that. That was a wild experience. Right?
- [21:53]
Owen Shroyer
Well, what's funny is we actually ended up agreeing on most stuff, but it did seem to be like the foreign policy stuff and the current reality of our economic situation, it seems like that's where, that's where the big divide is. And that's where kind of the Boomer mind matrix, it's like that's where they get trapped in it and they can't really see, you know, they can't really see where younger generations are coming from. Which, you know, if I'm, if I'm 20 years old and a boomer wants to approach me like that, you know, you look on it now, I'm 37 now, I look at that now and I say, yeah, I'm 20 years old, I got a lot of stuff to learn. Yeah, you know, I'm a young guy. I think I got it all figured out. But you know what? Okay, maybe you got a little bit of, you got a little bit of an edge. I'm 20 years old. You know, millennials, people, we're in our 30s now. We've come of age now. We've been working for decades now. We've been paying taxes for decades now. And there's this concept of like, hey, no, you're still that 20 year old. There's this concept of, hey, no, you're not, you haven't come of age, you're still on the sideline, you know, you're, you're not ready for this game. And I feel like, you know, the younger generations are kind of like, hey, wait a second, when do we get to play? Like, we're the ones that are going to inherit this mess that you guys are making. Are we ever going to get a say and trying to clean it up before you guys hand it over to us? Because this is kind of getting out of control here.
- [23:07]
Jay Dyer
So I'm curious what this might be too far, but I want to know your thoughts on it, because for a long time I've had a criticism of really the entire American system and Americanism in general is this idea of representative democracy itself, the Enlightenment ideals of America, I've been critical of those for a long time. That's probably in many ways limited the reach that I have had or could have. I'm curious, do you have any critiques, perhaps Americanism itself? Do you think there's some flaws, maybe even in the Enlightenment ideals themselves? Could we, do we need to go in more of a right wing direction rather than the classical liberal ideals? Or do you still think. It's not a debate, it's just honest question. I'm not going to come against you. Just curious what your thoughts are. Are you questioning any of the classical liberal ideals?
- [23:57]
Owen Shroyer
Well, let me, let me bring it to the shallow end for a minute with that question. I think that what we have seen is that, yes, you could argue that the current system of democracy is the most fair. Let's let's just assume, let's assume one person, one vote. Let's take out that, you know, elections are fake and gay. You know, one person, one vote. You could say, okay, that's the most fair, that's the most representative democracy. And so that's the system. But I do think now you can argue that's the most fair. But I think you can also argue that it has failed. I think that you can argue that that system has failed and it's going to be tough to push back on that system outside of the realm of fairness. And when you go to the originalist interpretation of our Constitution, the political science, you find out that this is not how the country was actually built.
- [24:46]
Jay Dyer
Right?
- [24:47]
Owen Shroyer
In fact, the more you look into the originalist interpretations of political science and the Constitution, you realize that there's a lot of things we do with our quote unquote democracy that was never built into the system. And I think when you do a little more research into it, you realize that there was actually a purpose there. And I think the big lie that they say is, oh, it was because it was anti woman or it was because it was racist. And the, and, and, and I don't believe that. I think that it was actually. I think the founding fathers were genius. I think the political system that they set up was genius. Is it perfect? No, of course nothing is perfect. But there was a reason why they said people that own land get to vote. There was a reason why you're great
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Owen Shroyer
I thought it was safe.
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- [26:28]
Owen Shroyer
They had state representatives electing senators and not a vote statewide. Like there were reasons why they did that.
- [26:36]
Jay Dyer
Well, exactly.
- [26:39]
Owen Shroyer
Now we see the reasons.
- [26:40]
Jay Dyer
And also, I mean, when they were writing those principles, they were based on European principles that prior to, you know, the founding documents already existed in Roman, you know, Roman law, common law, English common law, biblical law. Right. Even canon law in the church. And those come out of a certain mindset of Christian principles, Western civilizational principles, and actually native European Anglo stock peoples. So when you bring in infinity other peoples who have absolutely no appreciation for those types of ideas, going back to kind of originalist principles is, is already, I'm not disagreeing with doing that, but it's almost negated because now you have gigantic numbers of people who have nothing to do with any of that. And you can't export or indoctrinate everybody within even one generation necessarily into the civic nationalist ideals because it's a totally different paradigm. In fact, like, if you listen to a lot of CIA people when they talk about, well, we were doing these operations in this and that country or wherever, and they kind of get into this, they sort of have a negative attitude after a while of thinking, like, actually, I don't know if we can export Americanism to all of these cultures and countries. So I guess what I'm getting at is, is it also perhaps that the founding fathers, with all their insights, were already kind of working with a tool set, a toolkit that wasn't prepared to deal with where we are now, given all the things that they couldn't have even foreseen in terms of globalization, in terms of like, you know, technocratic governance and, you know, H1B stuff, bringing in infinity other people. It's almost like we're at like a million miles beyond these principles that were made for a certain type of European Anglo stock people. Maybe you disagree. What do you think about that?
- [28:37]
Owen Shroyer
No, I think that is a. It's a. It's a very relevant thing to talk about demographics. I think if you're going to ignore that aspect of politics, then you're not getting a full picture. But, you know, let's, let's try to get a specific example. Maybe I'll look at the first and Second Amendment and maybe even start in a roundabout way with, so you have all these Europeans that just came here for the World cup and it's very superficial. But, you know, they're saying, wow, look at your big trucks, look at your big stores, look at your big houses. And to them that's kind of like a bit of a culture shock, but they like it. That's, that's a superficial thing. I don't think Americans really understand just how privileged they are to have a First and Second Amendment. I don't think Americans can really comprehend how important that is. Now you talk about the originalist interpretation being negated and you say, well, could the Founding Fathers have conceived that you could buy a gun that could fire, you know, 60 rounds in a minute or whatever. Could the Founding Fathers have thought that eventually you're going to have 20 million people from foreign countries come in in a four year stretch? Well, you know, maybe, maybe not. And I would still say that. I, I think that the originalist application of, of our law and Constitution would still fit. I, I don't know, maybe, maybe the Founding Fathers, if they could have thought that that might be an issue, maybe they might have worded some things or added some different things in there because, you know, that that certainly is a big aspect of it, but I still think the originalist interpretation would apply. The problem is, you get back to this issue of our politicians are just corrupt, like, why do we even have open borders? Like, why are the demographics going the direction that they're going in? I think it's more of a political corruption issue than it is a political science issue. I look at the issue, free speech, right to defend yourself. I don't think Americans understand these foreigners come here, they can't even grasp it. They don't even really grasp what it means. And it certainly doesn't have an inherent value to them. There's no inherent, like, romance for free speech. There's no inherent romance for the right to defend yourself. And so it's very easy for them to go out and vote against it. It's very easy for them to be convinced that, hey, you don't need this stuff. Free speech is bad, right? To defend yourself is bad. And now you're looking around the room, as you say, we'll call it, let's say, heritage Americans. So now you're looking around the room and it used to be a bunch of heritage Americans. And they're saying, you know, from my cold dead hands, now you looking around and it's like, whoa, where are all the heritage Americans? And it's a bunch of people saying, yeah, we need gun laws. And so I think that that's, I think that that's kind of what we're looking at with the demographics and, you know, where's the assimilation? We saw all of these Europeans come here just for a couple weeks for the World Cup. They seem to assimilate overnight, Jay. I mean, they seem to be like, overnight they were like, boom, we get it. We get this. We understand what this means. I had to deal with a situation. I'm. I'm going through court on a free speech issue, and I've literally got foreigner judges. I've got judges from different countries. And here's my, you know, here's my, like, stereotypical northeastern New Englander American, looks like he got off the Mayflower. And then, you know, here's. Here's me, you know, German heritage, American family's been here since 1600s. And. And we're sitting here building up this defense for my free speech. And then it's like, the prosecuting attorney is from a different country, the judge is from a different country, and you're just like, what. What in the hell is going on? Is that. Are those my peers? You know, are. Is the judge my peer? Is the prosecutor my peer? Is the jury gonna be my peer? Are any of these people my peers? I don't know.
- [32:27]
Jay Dyer
No.
- [32:28]
Owen Shroyer
I mean, maybe they live here, but ideologically, I don't know.
- [32:31]
Jay Dyer
Well, I mean, I think we all know the founding fathers in that generation and thereafter, they had no idea that it would be these high levels of even legal migration. I agree with the principle that even the legal migration should have been vastly cut down. And that was changed, what, in the early 1900s to even be legal migration, which didn't even make that much sense, like why we need to have all of these people immigrated. I understand there's a lot of nuanced reasons for geopolitical purposes. And then, you know, with the rise of American empire and all that, they had to make these deals with other countries to bring in, you know, the Navy makes a deal with the Philippines to bring in millions of Filipinos to, you know, California or whatever. So it's really complex. But. And I wasn't even necessarily disagreeing with every Enlightenment ideal of, like, self defense or owning a weapon, that kind of stuff. I mean, I think, you know, England is now Fabian socialist. And so that principle is the nanny state. You can't even have a knife to defend yourself, but you must accept, you know, infinity Muslims. So I'm not saying that everything about the Enlightenment or the classical liberal ideals is bad, but one of the things. And this is a ne. Next question for you. One of the things that made me question classical liberalism a long time ago was this idea that everything's sort of neutral and that we can have these generic principles of, like, generic freedom of speech, generic, you know, right to, you know, free commerce, all this kind of stuff. And then but there's nothing really that grounds it other than what, like the consent of the people, social contract? I mean, all these are, again, just sort of arbitrary enlightenment ideas. So for a lot of people, I think this is what kind of turns them in the direction of looking for, like, religious grounding or something like that. And I noticed some of your tweets in the last month, six months, et cetera, they've kind of been more somewhat religious. So where are you at on the religious spectrum? Again, it's not a debate. I'm not trying to call you out. Just curious. Like, is that something that you're interested in? Do you see that as kind of not that relevant because America is kind of irreligious or its religion is politics? Like, where are you at on that spectrum? What is your religious background?
- [34:35]
Katie Duke
Are you.
- [34:35]
Jay Dyer
Are you comfortable talking about that?
- [34:37]
Owen Shroyer
Yeah, I was born and raised Catholic. I went through, you know, growing up, different phases. At one point, I would probably have called myself a nihilist. So, you know, you kind of go through this stuff when you're young, doubts, whatever. I, you know, I. I still consider myself a Christian. I am very proud of my Catholic upbringing. And I feel like at. At a certain level, I feel like I'm just honoring my parents by doing that. At a certain level, it's like, you know what? My parents raised me, right? My parents were good people. This was the system they raised me under. And so I'm going to honor them by owning that. I'm going to honor them and say, yes, you raised me. I. I Christian Catholic, and I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not gonna betray you. You guys did a good job.
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Jay Dyer
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- [36:53]
Owen Shroyer
Now, as far as when I do political commentary or just any general commentary, I try to keep religion out of it because everybody believes something different. And there's really no winning those debates. They're fun to have, obviously. I mean, if you don't like having a religious debate, you're missing out on some good fun as long as everybody can clink glasses afterwards. But I. To me, I'm. I really. The only thing I really try to espouse is creation. If anything, I'm a creationist. I believe we are in a divine creation. I don't claim to know all the answers. I think people that do, I think that's a little arrogant and a little ignorant. Have your faith, have your religion, obviously, but they call it faith for a reason. But to me, I think, you know, creation. I'm not so sure in my perspective, if that's open for debate. I. I don't believe in the big bang theory. I'm a creationist. I'm not. I'm not. Again, I don't. I don't claim to have any answers. I'm not even sure, you know, who. Who is the Creator. We call him God or whatever. But no, I do believe we're in a divine creation. That's the one thing that I kind of push, if there's any religious or spiritual aspect to my commentary, is that you're a divine creation. You're in a divine creation, and you should start behaving accordingly. Other than that, I don't really get too much into the religion or the spiritual aspect of things during my commentary. But I will say, you know, the one thing I have noticed because I think. I don't know, maybe every. Everybody goes through cycles. The one thing when I was younger that really turned me off of religion was when I got to college and I kind of started to expand, you know, the things that I would research or get interested in. You kind of land on the conclusion that religion is a divisive wedge phenomenon. And you might even reach the conclusion that in many ways, religion is used as a control mechanism over the masses. And so you kind of go through that phase, and that makes you resent, makes you hate it, and then eventually you kind of reject it and you become a nihilist. So I went through that, and maybe that's the extreme response. Perhaps not irrational, but eventually, maybe you kind of go through cycles. And I'm kind of. You know, Jay, I got to tell you, I don't really talk about this much, but you bring it up. You know, I'm. I'm kind of in a little bit of that phase again right now. And it's not even about me personally. It's not about my personal beliefs or my personal faith or spirituality. It's more of a, you know, watching what's happening specifically in the geopolitical world and the foreign policy world. And it's like, hey, I just don't want to spend a bunch of money on war. I. I'm sick of being at war for my entire life. And it seems like we get to this point and they bash religion over your head, and they're bashing religion.
- [39:37]
Jay Dyer
Like, are you referring to, like, Christian Zionism and, like, the support for.
- [39:40]
Owen Shroyer
That's probably the best example, I would say. Yes. Yeah, I think that's the best example. And it's like, how am I going to sit here as a Christian and I have to be lectured about, hey, because I'm Christian, I'm a slave to Jews. Because I'm Christian, I have to be a slave to God's chosen people. First of all, that was never how I was taught Christianity. My interpretation of the New Testament is that Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came, it was a new covenant, and that everybody is now God's chosen people, and that the new church is through people that accept Jesus Christ. Again, I'm not pushing that religion. This is what's taught. This is what I was taught my entire life. I went to a Catholic grade school. This is what I was taught. We were never taught some loyalty to Israel. We were never taught some fealty to God's chosen people. It was the new covenant. Jesus came and said, no, you're not God's chosen people. Everyone is God's chosen people that lives through me. And so now it's like, oh, here we are, and you're being told that you have to serve Jews. I mean, they literally say that, Jay, I'M sure you've seen some of this.
- [40:43]
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- [40:43]
Owen Shroyer
They literally say you have to serve Jews and America owes everything to Jews. And I'm sitting here scratching my head. I'm like, okay, I'm a Christian American. I'm a free man. And now I'm being bashed over the head with some synthetic religious belief that I don't believe in. And I'm told I have to be a slave because of it. Yeah, that is turning me off of religion, Jay. And I have to say, I start to reach the conclusion again. I go through these cycles. It's just logic, reasoning, and I'm. And it's like, okay, I'm reaching this conclusion again. It's. Religion is used to control the masses. It's like I'm witnessing it happen. I'm not attacking people's spirituality or faith or religion. But it's like we can clearly see now. I mean, it's. It's as obvious as it's been. Religion is being used to control the masses and as a means to a political ends. And I reject that notion.
- [41:30]
Jay Dyer
Yeah, but wouldn't that really just apply to Christian Evangelical Zionism, since that's really where that comes out of? Because even historic Protestantism, the history of the Catholic Church, history, Orthodox Church, I mean, that's never been, like you said, you know, part of Christian theology until the rise of dispensationalism and, you know, Scofield and all that kind of stuff. So would it be other aspects of, like, Vatican collusion with geopolitics that that would make you reticent to be, you know, returning to Catholicism or what, beyond the Christian Zenosphere?
- [42:04]
Owen Shroyer
Well, I think the Vatican seems pretty much. They don't. I mean, the Pope says stuff. People like it or don't, but the Pope. The Pope is always making political statements. But it doesn't really seem. I don't really see the Catholic Church having much influence. Certainly not as much as Israel. Israel seems to have more influence than. At least in America. Israel has more influence than anybody, including American people. So I don't really see that coming from the Catholic Church. You know, I'm not. I'm not so, you know, I'm not somebody that sits here and thinks about the Pope too much or the Vatican too much. I will say the one. The one beef, if I do have any, with the Vatican, maybe aside from the child sex abuse issues, you know, the Vatican has been caught. The Catholic Church has been caught basically hiding human history. You know, what they'll do is they'll go to these archaeological dig sites, and somebody will discover something historical or even world changing, and then the Catholic Church will show up and they'll say, oh, we're building a church here. They build a church, they excavate, they take all the artifacts, they hide it under the Vatican. So, you know, the Catholic Church is not beyond its own issues. Obviously, they've got their own problems. But I don't really see the Catholic Church having near the influence or the sway over politics or geopolitics. I'm just not really, I don't know. I don't really.
- [43:15]
Jay Dyer
Well, what I meant was like, if, if the qualm with religion, which I totally get, is, you know, something like Christian Zionism, if Catholicism or Orthodoxy or Protestantism traditionally doesn't have that element, like, what would be, would it be like other sort of atheist lines of argumentation that would make you sort of reticent about, you know, Protestantism in general or Orthodoxy or Catholicism? In other words, the, the gripes seem to be with it as a control mechanism. And the example was like, evangelical Zionism. So what about other religious ideas or spirituality that's not evangelical Zionist?
- [43:56]
Owen Shroyer
Well, when I approach, when I approach my commentary or my show, I, I think that, you know, I think that you kind of have to approach it from either an agnostic or even an atheist, an atheist kind of approach, simply because not everybody is going to share the same faith as you. Not everybody's going to share the same belief as you. So it's like, hey, I can have, I can have my own morals or I can reach my own conclusions based off of those morals. And maybe those are tied to a religious upbringing. But I also have to understand that not everybody feels that same way. Not everybody has that same, you know, moral compass. Coming from a religious background.
- [44:33]
Jay Dyer
I just meant more for you, like, just in terms of your own personal perspective, because I just want, I kind of wanted to get into, like, Owen today a little bit. And I appreciate your, your takes and everything, and you had a heart out. I don't want to keep you if you got a heart out right now at 55. So. But feel free to finish answering if you want to finish. I don't mean to cut you off.
- [44:49]
Owen Shroyer
Well, I, I, you know, I, I don't. Like I said, I just, I think about how I approach what I do. You know, I feel like whatever people want to do with their faith and their religion, their spirituality, if you want to do it publicly, do it publicly. I don't really do that. I, I feel that that's kind of imposing, but specifically when it comes to policy, you know, that that's what I don't like. I don't like imposing religious beliefs when it comes to policy. I think it's kind of a violation of the idea of church and state. Maybe not technically speaking, but. So that's why I kind of tried to avoid it. But I'm just, you know, I, I believe in God. I believe that there is a. A higher power, let's say much bigger than us, probably has more control than us. And so sometimes you just kind of let, you just let go and let God, as they say. And really it's, you know, it's, it's, it's worked out so many times for me that it's almost like proof. It's like so many times where I'm just like, I'm just going to give this to God. And then whether it's the next week, the next day, a year, two later, it's like, okay, God came through. It's like, wow, okay, I gave that to God. That ended up being the right decision.
- [45:54]
Jay Dyer
Awesome. Well, I know you got a heart out. Appreciate you coming on. Great conversation. I think people like to hear you discussing kind of other topics a little bit beyond just the political sphere. Not that that's bad, but people can follow you on X. Do you have any other key outlets that you want to direct people to?
- [46:09]
Owen Shroyer
Rumble.com Owen and then we just got a. We just got hit with a ban on YouTube, but they say they're going to give it back to us. We believe it was a mis. Mass reporting. So that's over your hair. I wish I missed it. I didn't have YouTube for the hair gate. I didn't have YouTube for the hair pocket.
- [46:26]
Jay Dyer
What did they say? Did they say what it was reported for?
- [46:30]
Owen Shroyer
You know what we were able to get on a phone call and I don't know if they're, you know, maybe they're honest, maybe they're not, but they're like, hey, we don't really know. The whole thing is kind of run by AI algorithms. So it's like we can't really, like tell you exactly what it is. Eventually they got back to us. At the end of last week, we found out the exact video and they determined that we were pinged for hate speech because I did a segment covering demographics and white replacement.
- [46:57]
Jay Dyer
Oh.
- [46:58]
Owen Shroyer
And so we were told the word white replacement dinged a hate speech thing, and that's what it got dinged for. Now I'm still convinced people are mass reporting me. And that's just maybe them hitting the. You know, that's like they finally hit a winner is they found a video that actually, you know, hit. Hit the AI Deal. But I think it's more mass reporting than anything. Hopefully, we'll have the channel back by the end of the week. That's what we were told. So, yeah, once that gets back, the Owen Report on YouTube. The Owen Report is live 3 to 6pm Central Rumble X YouTube. Hopefully soon. Audio archives Spotify iTunes, iHeartRadio and now we got to get Jay Dyer on the show because we got to do the two for two. You know, we got to bring you on the show now. We gotta go.
- [47:36]
Jay Dyer
I'll come up, but if you let me bring a little heat. Not against you, but I'll bring some. Some sass and some heat.
- [47:42]
Owen Shroyer
Are you kidding me? I have a black mustache and golden long hair. I know.
- [47:46]
Jay Dyer
You're looking like you went full tiger king, bro.
- [47:51]
Owen Shroyer
Yeah, Tiger king. That's definitely been one of the memes.
- [47:54]
Jay Dyer
All right, well, thanks, Owen. Everybody follow Owen. Check out his links below. And we'll have you back soon if you want to.
- [48:01]
Owen Shroyer
Great stuff as always, Jay. We'll be in touch.
- [48:03]
Jay Dyer
All right. Thanks, dude.
- [48:04]
Owen Shroyer
Later.