KAT VON D BARES ALL W/JAY DYER!

Summary

Jay’sAnalysis Podcast with Kat Von D – Detailed Summary

Episode Title: KAT VON D BARES ALL W/JAY DYER! Date: June 11, 2026

Overview In this engaging and wide-ranging conversation, Jay Dyer sits down with Kat Von D to explore her journey from childhood poverty in Mexico to international celebrity, her past struggles with addiction, and her spiritual transformation culminating in Orthodox Christianity. The discussion delves into art, media, technological dystopia, and the meaning of suffering, all through the lens of Kat’s personal experience and Jay’s probing, sometimes humorous questioning.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. Lighthearted Opening: B-Movies and Comic Relief

• The episode kicks off with playful banter about B-movies, including Kat’s own experience in a “C-minus” vampire film and a tongue-in-cheek pitch for a new movie starring a “B-grade Vin Diesel” (Ben Diesel) [01:07–03:35].
• Kat’s embarrassment about her minor role as “concubine number one” is met with entertaining references and jokes, setting a relaxed and candid tone.

Memorable Quote:

• “I love vampire movies. Vampire movies are my second favorite movie genre ever. But this one just went against everything...” — Kat, [02:25]

2. Upbringing and Family Heritage: Poverty, Missionary Life, Mixed Roots

• Kat reflects on her early years in Monte Morelos, Mexico, describing a joyful but impoverished childhood in a missionary family [04:12–07:11].
• Describes her Argentinian, German, and Mexican heritage, including the story of her family’s castle in Germany [06:03–06:43].

Important Segments:

• Joy in Simplicity: “As cliché as it sounds, I think the simpler your life is, the happier it can be.” — Kat, [04:20]
• Navigating Immigration & Heritage: “I think it confuses people. Like to learn that I’m Latina or whatever. Latina?” — Kat, [05:14]

3. Fame, Celebrity, and Worldview Changes

• Kat discusses the transition from humble beginnings to celebrity after her tattoo TV show took off. She emphasizes the importance of staying grounded in real friendships and resisting the temptations of Hollywood [12:08–13:22].
• She acknowledges the emptiness of celebrity culture and how it led her to re-examine her purpose and beliefs [13:25–13:58].
• Jay presses Kat on her previous “master of your own reality” quote, questioning the shift in her worldview from self-help and new age to her current faith [08:47–10:37].

Quote:

• “I built a huge career out of, you know, vanity, I guess you would say... And I just had my priorities really flipped upside down.” — Kat, [13:58]
• “I look back at those days where I was in some of the new agey stuff. This is very, very temporary.” — Kat, [09:42]

4. On Addiction and Recovery

• Kat candidly shares her long struggle with addiction, sobriety (17–18 years), and her discomfort with the AA model—preferring spiritual confession over perpetual labeling as an addict [24:28–27:54].
• Discusses how her Orthodox faith provides a different kind of accountability and healing than group therapy [27:54–30:13].
• Addresses misconceptions about past involvement with witchcraft or the occult, clarifying her historical interest but lack of active participation [19:45–21:27].

5. Marriage, Motherhood, and the Role of Relationship

• Kat credits meeting her husband, Rafael, as a turning point for her “real priorities” and as a catalyst for spiritual reawakening [15:52–16:52].
• Talks about balancing zeal for faith with responsibilities as a wife and mother—sometimes “competing with Jesus” for attention in her marriage [27:54–30:13].

Notable Moment:

• “[My husband] is the best thing to happen to me, and to you. Because, without this peace, I will ruin everything. I’ve ruined all my other relationships prior...” — Kat, [31:36]

6. Move to Indiana, Community, and Restoration

• Explains leaving Los Angeles during the COVID-19 lockdowns, moving to a small Indiana town for quality of life, community, and space to raise her son [38:55–39:47].
• Expresses appreciation for simplicity, neighborliness, and “normal life” outside of the glare of fame.

Quote:

• “I lived in my house in LA for eight years and I cannot tell you my neighbor’s name. And here there’s just a true sense of community.” — Kat, [39:08]

7. Faith Journey: Protestant Roots to Orthodoxy

• Kat traces her spiritual trajectory: childhood Seventh-Day Adventist (SDA) background, long estrangement from faith, a period in Baptist/Evangelical church, and ultimately, immersion in Orthodox Christianity [40:45–42:27].
• She describes the appeal of orthodoxy’s historic lineage, robust theology, and transformational approach to suffering and personal change [17:24–19:29; 44:15–45:45].
• Jay gives a deep explanation of icons, their symbolism, and the Orthodox worldview—prompted by Kat’s questions and interest [48:27–50:27].

Key Exchanges:

• “I think one of the things that was very appealing to me with orthodoxy was... a deeper understanding of actual church history, which I had no clue about.” — Kat, [17:24]
• “I want to be able to answer Leofar’s questions so as he gets older, he’s equipped... not just do it because mommy and daddy brought us up this way.” — Kat, [78:16]

8. Suffering, Death, Transformation, and the Book of Job

• Kat discusses her work tattooing portraits for grieving clients, leading her to study bereavement and confront mortality directly [62:17–63:58].
• Book of Job’s meaning: Kat shares how Job’s endurance in suffering offers her an example for her own life and spiritual resilience [64:11–64:40].
• Jay provides theological context about Job as a Christological prefiguration and the Orthodox view of redemptive suffering [65:24–69:44].

Key Quote:

• “If I could strive to be more like Job, I mean, it’s an example of how I want to be.” — Kat, [64:11]

9. Art, Technology, and Cultural Critique

• Kat and Jay discuss the threats and opportunities of technology, especially AI, in art and education. Kat’s values are rooted in the human touch, restoration, and traditional learning [51:20–53:14].
• She advocates for analog creation in art and music despite new tech tools, expressing skepticism about AI-generated art and education [57:01–58:46].

Quote:

• “I’m always going to be the analog lady, you know... When it comes to art, I don’t think I’m ever going to be a fan of like, an AI artist. That sounds...” — Kat, [56:55]

10. Music, Influences, and New Projects

• Kat talks about her musical inspirations—Depeche Mode, The Cure, industrial and synthwave influences—while noting her current preference for Orthodox chants and religious music [70:30–72:02].
• She teases the inclusion of a Byzantine version of “O Gladsome Light” on her next album, combining religious tradition with her electronic style [71:05–71:59]. Jay gets a kick out of this fusion.

Quote:

• “That’s why Gladsome Light to me, it’s the most perfect worship song... Every word, it’s one minute long.” — Kat, [71:16]

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• On childhood joy amid poverty: “But, you know, this was a place that didn’t have medical help. And so my dad built this clinic, like, literally built it and then worked in it.” — Kat, [04:12]
• On addiction: “When you’re on drugs, it is a type of possession, you know, you’re not in control... whether you really relinquish that power over to another entity...” — Kat, [24:28]
• On witchcraft misconceptions: “Would I consider myself a practicing witch? No, I was, you know, I’m not, I was never in that club...” — Kat, [21:02]
• On suffering and faith: “I wouldn’t be a good Christian. I wouldn’t be a good mom or a good wife, a good friend, or good dog [without sobriety]...” — Kat, [33:22]
• On icons: “It’s not a hard step for me to understand why we would want to kiss an icon. You know, it’d be weird if you don’t.” — Kat, [45:00]
• On the Orthodox liturgy: “I really feel like with all my being, worshiping the Lord, whereas, like, when I would go to the Protestant flavor, it feels more like I’m attending a lecture hall or a TED Talk or something...” — Kat, [84:01]

Timestamps for Major Segments

• Movie banter & B-movies: [01:05–03:51]
• Childhood & family history: [04:12–07:11]
• Early fame and media criticism: [10:37–13:22]
• Addiction, AA critique, and recovery: [24:28–30:13]
• Move to Indiana & quality of life: [38:55–39:47]
• Transition to Orthodox Christianity: [40:45–42:27, 77:23–79:47]
• Discussion of icons & art: [48:27–50:27, 44:15–45:45]
• Suffering & the Book of Job: [62:17–64:40]
• Art, technology, AI: [51:20–58:46]
• Music influences & new album: [70:30–74:52]
• Final reflections on Orthodoxy and worship: [75:30–84:25]

Tone and Language The conversation flows naturally, with Jay’s philosophical, sometimes quirky, probing matched by Kat’s genuine candor and reflective self-awareness. Humor, humility, and authenticity dominate the exchange, making the episode both accessible and intellectually rich.

Conclusion This episode provides uncommon insight into Kat Von D's personal evolution: from tattoo artist and celebrity to Orthodox Christian, from addiction to recovery, and from media saturation to a quest for meaning in tradition and creativity. Fans and newcomers alike will find depth, vulnerability, and thought-provoking dialogue, framed by Jay’s characteristic mix of levity and rigor.

END OF SUMMARY

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I've got an idea for a movie.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

We've got something akin to Fast and Furious. We've got a future era where there's rabid life sucking entities out on the run. There's something akin to Buffy the Slayer. We bring in a B grade Vin Diesel. Ben Diesel. Perhaps we could call him. You play.

[C]

Oh, I know where this is going.

[B]

The villains, love interest. No lines for you. Just hisses. This is my idea. What this is. This is classes.

[C]

I could do it.

[B]

Okay, so you're in?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Awesome. Okay. The bleeding. We had fun watching that last night. I was like. Jamie was like, what are you putting on?

[C]

Why would you do that to me? You want to. You want to open up this interview by talking about the 1B movie that I was in years ago? I don't even think I was the. The love. The love interest of the. I was just like.

[B]

You were concubine number one.

[C]

I was. Is that. Was that.

[B]

There was two.

[C]

Is that my credit?

[B]

No, that's my credit. That's my credit to you. But you were on his left flank and then there was another chick on the right flank and you guys were hissing it up.

[C]

It was the worst. Listen, I love vampire movies. Vampire movies are my second favorite movie genre ever. But this one just went against everything I. If you. If you actually watch the whole movie, which I think you could.

[B]

We did.

[C]

You guys did pretty much, yeah. I got killed with a silver bullet.

[B]

I know.

[C]

That's a werewolf. That's not a vampire. Vampire.

[B]

Look, let's not be Legalistic. Okay. There's flexibility. No, there is, but I. I wrote. So I wrote a couple of your lines.

[C]

Stake through the Heart. You said, why so sad? Your death brings me life.

[B]

Well, I think you need to answer for this. A lot of people are asking. You said at one point in the film,

[C]

stop.

[B]

Towards the end of the film, you

[C]

said, you're promoting something that I was hoping would never see the light of day.

[B]

What do those lines actually mean?

[C]

I don't know. I tried changing them because I thought they were so bad. And that's when I learned that you can't, as an actor, do that on set without a writer going, actually, you need to. Yeah, I tried. I tried my best. I had no control.

[B]

I love B movies.

[C]

I warned you that that was a C minus movie.

[B]

Okay, Fair.

[C]

That was not A. Grades.

[B]

Fair grades. But I did say I would bring up. And you did a whole interview with Stephen Baldwin about your movie. So I don't feel bad asking you about.

[C]

He has a podcast about the one bad movie you've been in. That's the only bad movie I've ever. That's the only movie I've ever been. Is a bad one.

[B]

You could ask my wife. I always wanted to be in a B movie. I thought we were about to be in one and the funding fell through. So if you want to hire me for a B movie, it's not too late. I'm out here. Exactly. Okay. You grew up in what's known as poverty, and you. You, for a time, didn't have what they call running water. What was that like?

[C]

I was born in Mexico in a little tiny town outside of the city of Monterrey. It was called Monte Morelos, and it's about six hours south of Texas. I lived there until I was about 5 years old, and then we moved to America. But my parents were. My father was a missionary for the church that we attended at the time. And so myself and my siblings were born there. And, you know, I don't have too many memories outside of Joy. I think as cliche as it sounds, I think the simpler your life is, the happier it can be. And, you know, I was a tomboy, and I remember putting frogs in my pocket and just having dirt under my nails all the time. But. But, you know, this was a place that didn't have medical help. And so my dad built this clinic, like, literally built it and then worked in it. And then, you know, we were born there, so. Interesting. So my family's from Argentina. They're from South America. I was born In Mexico. So you know, I think it confuses people. Like to learn that I'm Latina or whatever. Latina?

[B]

Latinx.

[C]

Yeah. No, not that.

[B]

In regards to Argentina.

[C]

You.

[B]

Your family moved from Argentina to Mexico. Okay.

[C]

Yeah. My dad is a long generations of missionary workers, so my grandfather was also a missionary doctor. He actually delivered me, which I think would have been in hindsight now that I have a son. It would be so weird to have your father in law be your obgyn. But. But there's a really cool photo of like him holding me up. And you know how they used to spank babies and stuff when. And that's my grandpa. Yeah, he's passed away since. But.

[B]

But the name von Drakenberg, right?

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Is that nobility?

[C]

It's of German descent. So on my dad's side, he has German ancestry. So there's actually a little castle outside of Cologne about 20 minutes outside of Cologne called Schloss von Drachenberg. And it's. It means dragon of the mountain. So. Yeah.

[B]

So is it nobility? Like do you.

[C]

Yeah, so usually I think it's V versus V. A N. I think there's like a difference in Dutch blood or something like that. I think we're the blue blood. I have no idea.

[B]

We have a Scottish castle, my clan.

[C]

You do?

[B]

Uh huh. It's all ru. It's in ruins and the queen owns it, which pisses me off.

[C]

Ours is a museum now and it's cool cause I have fans that send me photos and videos and stuff. It's really beautiful. It was one of the few castles that weren't damaged through any of the war. So that's nice.

[B]

It makes me think of the Baroness from GI Joe. You could play the baroness. Do you know what I'm talking about?

[C]

No. When you say baroness, I always think of like Countess Bathory or somebody like that.

[B]

That too. So Argentina, poverty to Mexico.

[C]

I think the thing about being poor is that you don't if as a parent, if you do it right, you don't even know you are, you know. So for us it was a very joyful time. It was all about family and I had no idea that there was anything different.

[B]

Did that protect you from the later temptations of what like celebrity and Hollywood offers? Do you think there was some?

[C]

Yeah, I think my parents did a pretty good job at not protecting so much, but just teaching us the importance of certain things. I remember my dad bought us a family van at one point. This was. It was like an astro van. And I was in elementary school at the time. And it had one of those doors that slid open. And I was. My mind was blown at the time because I'd never seen anything. I was like, this is the coolest thing ever. And I remember my dad having a conversation with me in the first grade, saying, hey, like, when you go to school, like, don't show off. And I was confused. I was like, what do you mean? I can't, like, tell my friends that we got this cool new van. And. And, you know, now that as a mom, I look at my kid and I'm kind of dealing with some of the same things where it's like, how do I give the gift of, you know, that. The simplicity and value to my son? And I think we're doing an okay job.

[B]

Yeah, no, I get it. I mean, when I was coming up in Tennessee, we lived kind of outside of town. We also didn't have much. My dad bought a trailer and we had to live down by the river in a van. Down by the river. That's not true. That's not true.

[C]

Are you really from Tennessee, though?

[B]

Yeah, I'm from Tennessee.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

You said you're the master of your own reality many years ago to never said that to Joe Rogan.

[C]

So dumb. You know what? Like, I saw your questions, like, I stole your book and I looked at your notes, and these are all terrible. And if you continue.

[B]

This is important, though, because your worldview has changed. Right. So you dug synchronicity. You had a very. I think you said in one of the other interviews too, like, later on you said, I think a lot of people just end up kind of worshiping themselves. I think that's a crucial realization that marks everybody's transformation. You know, like, they. You realize that even if you believed in a higher power, quote unquote, or even if you thought, oh, I'm, you know, serving a higher ideal, and you might have been at times sincere, but I think at the end of the day, we end up realizing that eventually, until we have a specific encounter that we'll get to in a moment, we're kind of worshiping ourselves. Is that accurate?

[C]

I think so. And I mean, whatever these old quotes you pulled up to embarrass me, I think I've always had a seeking nature. And most, most people that I meet do too. And we're always, like, trying to find answers and trying to, you know, figure out what all this means. And oftentimes you get stuck, like, with whether it's a self help book or whatever it is, like meditation, what, you know, it's I've talked about it before. Sometimes it feels like a band aid on a sinking ship type thing. And I look back at those days where I was in some of the new agey stuff. This is very, very temporary. It's like these also grateful for those, like, stepping stones that brought me to where I am now, you know, it's like I'm glad I was at least thinking of these things, you know, even though I definitely didn't have it right back then.

[B]

What's interesting about a lot of what you said, even in your previous to Christianity era, you talked about things like, oh, I quit watching TV at all. Like, back in 2010, you know, you mentioned that you would sometimes watch films.

[C]

That sounds like something a snob would say, but.

[B]

No, but that's actually. It's actually good, though, because if you watch TV now, it's like nothing but just boomer. Like mind control, control programming.

[C]

You're talking about actual television?

[B]

Yeah, like, television is like, just. It's a meta level of dystopian reality. If you look at it, if you haven't watched it in a long time, it's like you go to. You're like, whoa, this is crazy. But I'm just saying it's interesting that even before, there seems to have been a kind of sensing that, you know, something is off with this. Something is like media is doing something weird. And I think a lot of people who do media notice that quicker than people. Perhaps not in media, because you see it from the back end. You see what's going on in the background. Not that you necessarily saw, like, a bunch of corruption, per se, But I did want to mention, as we move from old times up to new times, like when you had a TV show and then the TV show gets really popular, you experience that reality, it becomes kind of surreal, I'm guessing, probably. And then you step into totally different worlds. So I want to know, like, what was it like being from a background of. I think you said at one point that you. You. You hopped on a Greyhound and you just kind of went and smoked cigarettes and did your own thing.

[C]

Yeah, you really did some old digging, huh?

[B]

I got to study the ops, right? You kind of did it yourself, which is admirable. And then you end up in a situation of celebrity, which is very, very rare. That's why I'm asking about this. Well, what's the transition from poverty to celebrity like for you? And then what's the emptiness of that type of celebrity lifestyle, like, you know, 2010's LA or whatever?

[C]

I don't know. I never really thought about it that way, to be honest. Like, I was just a tattooer at the time, and I got on a tattoo TV show and it blew up. And I still. I don't know, I just always just kept my regular real friends and just didn't really pay attention to the good and the bad. As far as, like, input. I think, again, this is due to probably my parents bring me up a certain way, and I think when you keep your circles small, it makes that a lot easier. But, yeah. Is there an adjustment to people recognizing you or, you know, whatever, those kind of things? Sure, but it's. I don't know.

[B]

But.

[C]

So I don't really think about that kind of stuff, to be honest.

[B]

But, I mean, back then, did you. Like, was it. Surely there had to be temptations of, like, oh, you know, like, people recognize me on the street now. This is not how it used to be. And was there a temptation to think, okay, I've arrived? And then was there a lack of fulfillment in an arrival that caused you to continue to sort of search? Because there had to be something that prompted the questioning of, well, there's more to life than this, right? There's got to be God. There's got to be meaning or purpose. Like, what directed you on the path of meaning?

[C]

I was brought up Christian, so, you know, to me, it's. It's just something that was, you know, it was just understood in a certain way. I mean, I think when you're a kid, you're still trying to figure it out. And by the time that I became a teenager, I left home at a really early age. I ran away from home, which was a really dangerous thing to do. And I just didn't think about faith at that time. And, you know, you can see, like, if I were to lay out my life, there's just the highest amount of destruction that I had. And I do believe that I had something watching over me at the time. I just never, like, when I strayed away, I just didn't think about it. And I ended up prioritizing the things that you were talking about. Self worship. I mean, I built a huge career out of, you know, vanity, I guess you would say, most of it. And I just had my priorities just really flipped upside down. And it really wasn't until I met my husband where I. Where those things started changing. Raphael, you know, I. I haven't dated that many people in my lifetime, but, like, prior to my husband, most people I dated were terrible for me, you know, and, you know, the whole water seeks its own level. I'm sure, you know, plays a part in that.

[B]

What about Darius Rucker? How was that?

[C]

Who?

[B]

When you dated Hootie? Because nobody's asked her, Jay. Because, I mean, signed an end. People have theorized for many years that. I want to hold your hand. The dolphins make me cry.

[C]

You know what? I don't even know what you're talking about.

[B]

I'm just making a silly joke. No, I'm sorry. So you had a series of bad experiences in that world.

[C]

No, I mean, listen, everybody has to go through that until they find the right partner. But when I met Raphael, I just remember there was just goodness, you know, there was. It was like the first time I felt like I was dating somebody that loved me without agenda. And, you know, I really had no idea that he was gonna change my life in the way that he did. And, you know, at that time, when I met him, I was in full force. You know, I had a huge company. I was just doing tons of stuff. Like, my work was my priority. And. And I remember he was like, I want to have six kids. And I'm like, oh, I'm never having kids. Like, my art is my baby or whatever, you know? And then the compromise was, I'll give you one, you know, And I think that was the first step into really changing.

[B]

So motherhood and being a wife was a big part of.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Shift.

[C]

Yeah. But I think it was. It happened more because of the marriage. You know, I think prior to that, I was very lost and, you know, seeking love and just harmful ways.

[B]

I think if somebody had asked you prior to all of that, you know, in the 2010s or in the 2000s, like, what is your worldview? What do you believe? Would you have said atheist, agnostic?

[C]

I wouldn't even know what that meant back then, you know, to be honest. I think. And I'm sure we'll get into the orthodoxy stuff, but it's like, one of the things that was very appealing to me with orthodoxy was just that this. A better. A deeper understanding of actual church history, which, you know, I had no clue about. Like, I didn't know what Protestant was. I didn't know. You know, I just was like, this is like people who believe in Jesus or something, you know, and that's. That's that, you know, I didn't understand even my own upbringing, to be honest. So I wouldn't have. I wasn't intelligent in that sense enough to even call myself an atheist or agnostic. I Think that when times got tough and I was hitting rock bottom, there was an innate desire to pray. And it wasn't because my parents brought me up Christian. It was a desire to reach out for help from where it counted. And I think for those that have reached rock bottom, like. Like a real, you know, desperation. I mean, I'm sure there's many cases, everybody. There's lots of people that have experienced the same thing. So I remember feeling like, that's so interesting. It's not like I'm not calling to my mommy or my. Or my dad. Like I'm calling to, you know, so that was. That's always stayed with me. So even when I was, you know, strayed far away, it never really left. And then. And then it wasn't until about 2020 when my husband came to me and was like, you know, I think that, you know, we got a lot of things wrong, and it was like a worldview. It wasn't necessarily a faith thing, because my husband and I are not necessarily on the same page. And so. And I just remember going, like, show me. You know, and I've learned so much from my husband, you know, and I think he has, like, a lot of wisdom to share with me. So it changed my perspective on a lot of things. And then from that, I go, what else have I gotten wrong? And that's when I started, like, exploring going back to. To church.

[B]

Right. And you said it is. We could maybe do a little debunking. Because a lot of people think that because of an aesthetic, there might be something edging into the occult or witchcraft or something like that. But you've always maintained that you were never really into any of that.

[C]

I think a lot of people, especially, like, in the Christian realm, like when I. When I got baptized, you know, I decided to post a video about it, and it got a lot of traction, which was not the reason for me posting it. I just felt on my heart to proclaim my faith honestly and openly because I had gone so many years doing the opposite. And so I felt like that was the most honest and fairest thing I could do, especially to people who follow me.

[B]

I saw an AI of that, and that was. Was it Spencer Pratt baptizing you, or was it Donald Trump? I can't remember. There was an AI. There's a beautiful AI imagery.

[C]

AI. I mean, I think when it comes to, like, faith or philosophies and stuff, I was, you know, I would read a lot of the old philosophers. I was a big fan of Nietzsche. Stumbled upon a Lot of self help books at the time, which I wouldn't call them self help, I would consider them wisdom books. But in, in hindsight they were all really missing the most important part. But as far as the witchcraft thing goes, you know, I, I've been a fan of history, I'm still a fan of history. And so yeah, did I have things that veered into those realms? Did I learn about some of that stuff? Sure. But would I consider myself a practicing witch? No, I was, you know, I'm not, I was never in that club, you know, but there was a point where I did get rid of, I went through my library and collection of things and, and got rid of, you know, things that I just didn't want collecting dust around my, my sphere and my child's world either.

[B]

You know, I noticed that because I had a phase where I was interested in that stuff in my 20s and I never got serious about it. But one thing that I noticed, and we were talking about this earlier, is that there's, there's never kind of an end point. It's like there's, you get into, oh, this esoteric thing and oh, but then what about this one over here? And it's like a never ending sort of. It's rabbit trail all the way down and you never sort of land on anything. And in my life, even though I was raised Protestant as well and I've kind of, you know, been all around and experienced different things, I always kind of land back on if I ever sort of stray. It's like I always come back to orthodoxy because there's nothing else that really gives you a kind of a stability in terms of a paradigm or worldview compared to all of these other. They just never go anywhere. And they're also just sort of like their ideas.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think we need more than just a new set of ideas. There's something that has to be actually real, grounded, historical. And the reason I keep bringing up past is not to shame or not to remind you of bad times. It's important because we did a live stream the other night and the whole live stream was about how techno, technocracy, technology is actually, I think erasing the past. It's all sort of a Maoist thing to get rid of everybody's previous memories and existence, to only live in the sort of immediate instantiated, infinite present. So it's like, it's like a mimicking of God's perspective where you think you're your own God, but you only live in the immediate. And so your past Your family, your nation, your history. None of that matters. It has to be erased. And you only live in the immediate. That way, everybody is, like, completely controlled, but that's getting way, way too conspiratorial.

[C]

But it's not necessarily that I'm ashamed of it. I mean, a good chunk of my life has been documented and aired publicly. So it's not that I'm, you know, I mean, do I cringe at certain things I said at a certain time? Sure. But I also. I'm proud of myself that I'm not stuck in that same place, which I have friends that never moved on from those. Those, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Those times. So it's. No, I'm just. I'm just poking fun at you just because you brought up old quotes from old interviews that I'm just like,

[B]

what are the three transfer of energy words? This is everyone. I just did a podcast with Eddie Bravo, and you told Eddie Bravo there were three words.

[C]

I can't believe I agreed to this. You're in my house.

[B]

Oh, no. All right. So one thing that I noticed in. In some of the older interviews that was interesting was that you did also kind of mention the demonic. You said that. Yeah. And this might be a newer interview, but you said something like, you did come to believe that demons and demonic possession was real. I'm curious. What, Was it just the Christian paradigm, or was there anything else, perhaps, like, the temptation to addiction? Like, is. Is there something that piqued the idea of the demonic and what you're talking about?

[C]

I just think that sometimes you can understand things, like, it's easy to be, like, that's demonic based off of a movie. Like, and I love the exorcist genre as well. That's my number one favorite type of movie. But. And I think some things are. Might be that way. I'm not an exorcist, so I can't speak to that, but I know that there are people that become possessed by worldly things. And, like, if you want to label that a demon, it makes sense to me. You know, Like, I'm. I'm happily sober for. Actually, I'm, like, losing count. Might be 16, 17 years now, maybe 18. And. And I don't want to blame, you know, my past addiction on a. On a demon, you know, even though I would say that when you're on drugs, it is a type of possession, you know, you're not in control. You're not. You know, and so whether you really relinquish that power over to another entity, you know, Is that. That's what I think I meant by in that quote. It is all fascinating to me. You know, I think that I get called demonic all the time, probably just because of my aesthetic or, you know, maybe some of the lyrics in my music are misconstrued, but I don't, I don't. I would say that that's like a superficial, like, label.

[B]

Sure.

[C]

That's not, you know, when I'm talking about a demonic possession, I'm. That's not what I'm referring to.

[B]

No. Well, I had a really bad acid trip one time, and I think I did see something actually demonic. So I was just curious if there was. Because you'd mentioned drugs in the past, like there was a bad experience or if it was just more so, like this is becoming an addiction.

[C]

I have tried acid and shrooms and stuff maybe once or twice, but my. My drug of choice was more upper. So I, you know, I think that. That maybe it's a different type of demon. You know, I think, I mean, it's definitely a different flavor, I think, but.

[B]

And what so you.

[C]

But I. I don't think I. I saw a physical monster or something. I'm talking about like a demonic possession of the heart and, you know.

[B]

Right. Like, where we put all of our time and energy and focus and. Yeah, you mentioned as well, like, a period of aa.

[C]

I was never a fan of aa. I mean, I love the Big Book. I think the steps are awesome. I would. I think the world would be better off if Everybody did the 12 steps at one point and did the inventory. I personally do that now as an orthodox Christian, like through confession and. But I'm just not a fan of group therapy in general. Like, I've never been good at that. And I think too, like, the anonymous part is very rarely honored within that circle, especially in la. I would go to a meeting and then I would have to, like, hear about it on Twitter somehow or whatever.

[B]

Now that you said that a lot of the standups practice their new material at aa.

[C]

Yeah. I mean, in la, it's a different story. And I know that there are, like, pockets of meetings where there's more like elders that are more serious.

[B]

So you got a good drunk joke? Do I have a good drunk joke from the comedians?

[C]

Oh, no. I just feel like when people would go up to say their. Their story, a lot of time it's like I would see, you know, some up and coming comedians, like, practicing bits and things like that.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Sometimes. I don't know. I'm not trying to Judge. Because honestly, like, everybody's trying their best,

[B]

I guess, but I'm trying to judge. I'll be all about that. Judge and listen.

[C]

But I think my biggest gripe with it was just more like, I never felt safe to in those circles, but also too, like, I just, you know, where's the step where you don't have to do any more steps? That's. That's the part where it's like, where's the step where you can stop calling yourself an addict? Like, I don't consider myself an addict because I don't do drugs anymore and I don't drink. You know, it's like. But for them, it's like this, like, label of. It's a forever mark that you have to go to every meeting forever, or else if you don't, you will fall. And it's like, I. I see that with my relationship with Christ. Like, I have to keep my, you know, my. My eye on that prize and. But I. I don't need to go to, you know, a meeting with a. With, you know, some Hollywood people to confirm that. But I do feel like I need to do it, like, you know, with my parish and my priest and saints all around me. But, you know, at one point when I first became an inquirer and, like, started really seriously going into orthodoxy, you know, I. It's all I could think about, and it's all I wanted to think about, and I'm still that way now. But I got to the point where, you know, it was causing problems in my own marriage, you know, because I just wanted to. To be in church all the time. And. And, you know, my husband is very supportive of me, and he's very patient and loving, but he's not, you know, he's not a catechumen. He's not for, you know, and that's something that's, you know, it's a struggle for us sometimes. But I remember at one point, he's like. Like, I'm competing with Jesus at this point. And I really had to look at. And I, you know, I've talked to my priest about it and everything, and it's like, there's a point where it's like, I need to make time for my marriage and not, you know, because if it was up to me, if I didn't have the responsibility of a marriage or motherhood, I might consider the monastic life, you know, and, like, that, to me, is very appealing, you know, but. But I'm also a very extreme personality. So it's like. But that's not that, that's not the, the card that I'm dealt.

[B]

Right.

[C]

You know, and so I have to make sure to take care of my marriage and take care of my mother and still prioritize that. And you can, you can balance that together. I don't know why I got on this tangent. I know we were talking. What?

[B]

It's okay.

[C]

Okay. Oh, no. But there's a reason why I brought it up. We were talking about something prior to this.

[B]

In other words, he's not orthodox. Would you describe him as an eventual local?

[C]

No. Oh my gosh. I just got it.

[B]

We just, yeah. So terrible Evangelical.

[C]

No, no, Raphael was, he was brought up Roman Catholic. Oh, interesting. So, but I wouldn't say he's a practicing, you know, he comes to church with me every, you know, on Sundays he comes with me and you know, my, our son just got baptized and he's very happy about that and he loves orthodoxy and he loves it. For me, that's what I was going to say was that, you know, in aa it's like when there's people that's like, I have to have this meeting or else I'm going to relapse, you know, and to me, I remember sitting down with my husband explaining to him like, this might, I might be annoying to you in a sense, but like, Jesus is the best thing to have happened to me and to you. Because without this peace, I will ruin everything. I've ruined all my other relationships prior to, you know, I have, I have never been faithful until my marriage, you know, and it's like, and the biggest part to that is the Jesus part. And so I, sometimes I, you know, I think, I think he understands that it's like, it's good for me, you know, it's, it's good for me to go to church and it's good for me to be surrounded by that and have these daily reminders. You know, I, I, I'm a hard headed person, so I tend to need these daily reminders all around me, whether it's like the cross around my neck to the things in my household.

[B]

And we all do it, we're all that way. Like one thing you said though, before we got to the orthodox part, and I think we were eating dinner and you said this. So AA has this idea that you just appeal to any higher power. And I've always seen that as, because I've had a lot of friends that have gone to a. And so I've always seen that as kind of one of the flaws in that system Is. And I just had a debate with two dudes the other day. Those guys whole ethos was to defend the idea that it doesn't really matter about Jesus. It's more so just generic God. But the problem is that generic God is generic. It doesn't tell us anything about, you know, be like saying, if you. I mean, imagine saying that instead of, well, I'm not in love with my wife, Jamie. I'm in love with woman. I'm in love with human. Right. It does. It's not specific to tell you anything that's the same. It's like, oh, I just believe in God. And the whole thing with AA is that although there might be some pragmatic things that help people, if at the end of the day, it's just generic God, it's allowing you to paste into it whatever you want. But that's the problem, is that what those people are after is. Is what it's not offering. Like, it's not offering the spec. Specificity of who that is.

[C]

That's an awesome way to put it. Yeah, it does. And. But I will say, you know, I think I'm not knocking AA in any way because it's helped so many people, including myself. I think whatever gets you sober is the best thing. Because without sobriety, like, I wouldn't be a good Christian. I wouldn't be a good mom or a good wife, a good friend or good dog.

[B]

So anything, literally anything.

[C]

I. If I'm on drugs, I'm. I'm gonna tear apart my world? Is that what you're asking?

[B]

I'm just saying, could there be a trade off? You said anything that gets you off of drugs. So. No, I'm obsessed with Creed.

[C]

No, of course I wouldn't say anything. No. What I. No, I. I'm sorry, you're right. I shouldn't have generalized. I'm not a debater. Okay.

[B]

It's not a debate.

[C]

Feels like it really feel that way. No, no, no, not at all. But I will say I was like, intimidated when you asked me to. To do this because I was like, you know, I'm sure you. I've obviously seen your debates, and I'm like, some. Sometimes I. I have to look up words that you say and like, you know, it's hard to keep up because you're up here, you know, and it's. It's very cool. I love that.

[B]

It's word salad. I don't even know what's half the word's name.

[C]

No, no, I.

[B]

But if I write down a fancy word I got a booklet, it's called Fancy Words. And then so I'll just. In the middle of a debate, I'll appeal to the fancy word booklet.

[C]

Yeah, well, you don't have to know the words. Yeah. Hopefully we're not letting down your audience, considering that this is. This, this is a different type of word salad, right?

[B]

No, it's all good. So you're in aa. You. It helps you.

[C]

I only, I've only gone to a. A few times.

[B]

You weren't there a lot, A lot. And then you just decided, I gotta make these choice, these changes.

[C]

I, I've just always been lone wolf about things. I'm like, I can do this on my own. And I think a lot of that is where I started going into self help stuff. You know, I find, you know, not necessarily like manifest like that kind of stuff, but, you know, and I, I don't even want to bring up the types of books, but, you know, just things that, they feel good and it feels like you're making progress, you know, and I think I was, you know, but it's, it was like such a tip of an iceberg. But yeah, so it's kind of like I just started getting sober on my own, right. So I didn't depend on the meetings or anything, but I did have to go through like the Rolodex of friends and drug dealers and everything and delete everything and start from scratch. And you realize very quickly that you don't have any friends, you know, I mean, most of the people that I was surrounded by at the time were fellow drug addicts, you know, and it's, I mean, and it makes sense.

[B]

So you ghosted Pablo Escobar and now he's like, hey, where's she at, dude? She don't record my text no more.

[C]

It was more like the bouncer at strip club or something like that.

[B]

Yeah. So then what tips the scale towards going back to Jesus? Right? Because I know there's a phase of evangelicalism where you kind of immediately get back in the sphere of protestant evangelical stuff.

[C]

You're talking about how do I make my way back to Jesus? Yeah, yeah, that was in 2020. That was like years later. I was already sober for many years. Yeah, yeah. It was just, I think seeing what happened during 2020 with the lockdowns and just so much crazy misinformation and just. I lived in LA in the middle of all that when it was happening, and so I got like front row seats to, to. It wasn't even what the news was showing you because it wasn't. It was, I think, worse. But. And so I started questioning a lot of things that at the time I was like, I used to be so gung ho about this and I realized I got things wrong, you know. And so then Rafa has always, again, even though he's not necessarily Christian, he's always been pointing me in that direction. I do believe that's a part of why God's paired us, you know, and so I definitely just credit my husband towards all these pretty, pretty large landmarks, you know, and then once I, once I, you know, started going to church again, we decided to leave California at that time.

[B]

And then was it the dystopian aspect of that period of 2020? Like, was that what.

[C]

I'm not a fan of government. I have never been a fan of, of government per se. I mean, I like very small government, but. Or I prefer that. But like in California specifically, I was, I was not a fan of our governor. Still am not. And you know, I have such a love for California and seeing it destroyed the way that it's been, it's like, you really have to be super hard headed to not hold certain people accountable. And so after 2020, it seemed like the government overreach that took place. I mean, I had my tattoo shop for over 12 years and I lost it due to a lockdown that was not handled with small businesses in mind. But with that being said, we had a really small child at the time, and we had a beautiful house in Hancock Park. It was a nice area. And we realized that we just never left. We were just always. I'm like, are we confined to our small front yard for the rest of our life because we don't want to go out there anymore? This isn't, you know, how are we raising leofar? You know, and so I've always been a huge fan of restoration for Victorian homes, and I had restored that house for eight years and. And then there was this house in the middle of nowhere in Indiana that was operating as a bed and breakfast for. For 20 years. And it went on the market. And it's a very unique home, which is the one that we're in right now. And I remember telling Rafa, I was like, hey, let's just fly out there and just see it, you know? Like, I. Other than driving through Indiana, I've never spent time here. I never. I don't have friends here or anything.

[B]

So you flee, you flee California.

[C]

Yeah, that sounds dramatic. But, yeah, it was a process. We moved out of California and we found this place. And you know, it's a very small town of 1200 people.

[B]

Right?

[C]

And it's so small that it doesn't even have a mayor. It's just, it was the perfect balance of nature. But I think a majority of people here, working class, it's just nice neighbors. You know, I lived in my house in LA for eight years and I cannot tell you my neighbor's name. And here there's just a true sense of community. So we love that. And people leave us alone. Like, you know, it's easy for us to have like a normal life and, you know, my kid can run around and be a kid and we don't have to worry about the craziness.

[B]

This mansion is amazing. It's actually like Resident Evil. Like when you're wandering around and then you come up here to the Crow's nest. The first time I came here, I was like, this is where you snipe the peasants, right? The zombie peasant villagers. It's just like.

[C]

Well, for context, we are sitting in what we call the Crow's Nest. It's the four story tower of this building that when we bought it was pretty much just abandoned. There was like dead birds and flies everywhere. And so then I decided to make it like a tea room. So. But we love this room. It's pretty, it's cool. And this is the first time I'm actually hanging out in it. Like, this is the first time we've filmed or done anything in here.

[B]

So you flee here, but not in flight, and you come to the middle of nowhere. And this is concurrent with you transitioning to a new paradigm, a new worldview. And originally I think you said it's like sort of Baptist evangelical ideology. So I'm curious.

[C]

Yeah, we landed here and I just prayed to. For the Lord to put us in at the footsteps of the right place. And you know, because it is a small town, it's not like there's an Orthodox church or any. There's not really that many churches here. There's like two or three in this. There's actually three, but now two. And there was this Baptist church that we can see from the window here. And we just. One Sunday walked up and the people there were very warm and welcoming and it was, it was a beautiful. It was a beautiful time. You know, I don't. Just because I'm orthodox now does not mean I don't love my Protestant brothers and sisters, you know, and without that transitional period, I don't think I probably would have found Orthodox the way that I Found it, which I think was good. So I, I was there for about a year and then got baptized and hit a wall pretty quickly after that. Like, meaning I just had a lot of questions. Not a lot of discipleship or discipling, I guess, or shepherding. And after that, I, I would share with my husband just the struggles that I'm like, man, I just feel like my cup's not full, you know, I know it sounds silly, but I'm going and through the motions. But something. There's, there's more. And he goes, he sends me a YouTube video of a, an Orthodox priest talking about something philosophical. But it was so beautiful. And I was like, oh, this guy's cool. I really like what he's about. But I didn't understand. I thought like, Orthodox was, you know, I didn't know it was like Christian,

[B]

like the weird uncle to Christianity.

[C]

Yeah, I didn't understand what it was. I was like, okay. And so, so I didn't think about it at all. And then it wasn't. There's like two other things that happened that, that really, like after the third time of kind of being called to it, I was like, you know, I'm going to actually just go and check out an Orthodox church. And so I googled what the nearest English speaking Orthodox church was to me and I stepped foot into, to the parish that I go to now. And like a greeter talked to me briefly, was like, oh, hey, are you visiting? You know, and I said, yeah. And he goes, here's like a little. It was like a little card that just, you know.

[B]

Did the aesthetics draw you in? Partly. No, There's a lot of people who are into aesthetics. Fine. Orthodoxy, aesthetically appealing.

[C]

If we're talking about aesthetic. I mean, I would say the Roman Catholics have the most beautiful architecture. Not talking about icons and all that stuff, but like, I was always a fan of Caravaggio paintings and, you know, Rembrandts, like all the master style. So I mean, to me, it was funny, I was talking to Father John, John Parker about this the other day. That was like. I never understood icons, obviously, until I was introduced to Orthodoxy. And I had seen them, I had seen these depictions of Christ and I thought, oh, this must be from the 1500s before they learned how to draw, like, because everything was so flat. I didn't understand that there's symbolism and meaning behind all of that. And I just was like, oh, cool, that's just more ancient. But when I saw the Caravaggio's painting of the Doubting of Thomas, I saw it in real life, and it hit me. And this was before I had come back to the church. I just was like, this really happened, the resurrection. And I'm like, can you imagine what it would have felt like to see Christ? And even being a disciple and seeing all the other miracles, you still have doubt to the point where he's, you know, in his amazingness was like, here, let me just prove it to you again. And it just. I just remember seeing that painting, and it just was like, oh, if this is real, like, we should be. We should be scared, you know? And so I was like, oh, icons make so much sense to me. Like, this is. You don't even know how to read to. To learn about Jesus, you know, Also your. It's so cool.

[B]

Your background is to. You drew from the time you were young. You're always drawing, and then you do it on people.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's something about that. And you even described it like, it's not just, you know, a job or whatever. You're also having this sort of unique experience with the person, getting to know the person. So it's almost like for you, from your earliest days, like, art and imagery and iconography was also personalized. And the whole point of the icons is to personalize the saints, thus to also personalize God. So it's not just an abstraction. It's not art. No, it's a window to heaven to meet people and to know people. And I'm just saying.

[C]

But there's also, like, historic storytelling. Then. That's the part where it's like, I'm learning about something and understanding an experience because I'm seeing an image. And I don't need to be, you know, a theologian. I don't need to have high iq. I can just look at this and understand. And I thought that was so cool and so moving. So when I did, you know, see icons after that, it's like, oh, it's. It's not. It's not a hard step for me to understand why we would want to kiss an icon. You know, it's. It'd be weird if you don't. Yeah, right. So.

[B]

Well, and so many other things that in our lives, we honor and revere in the exact same way. And then I think through a lot of the sort of Protestant, Islamic ideology, we tend to think that that would be a violation of divinity or something. But why, if we do that for the lesser things, like, obviously, we would do it that much more for the higher things. So another thing about this neat about icons that goes back to what I was saying about the past and about history is a lot of, like, the tech today, what it's geared towards is getting you focused on only caring about 100, 100 immediacy and fulfillment in the immediate. But an icon is like the right version of that because even though they're what they're 2D, they aren't just an eternal now, because within the nows that they show, there's almost always a background and a history and a future to the story of the person and the icon. For example, like, if you see icons of the life of Christ, like, where they have, like, a big one that has all the stories in one, it's one image, but it's telling you this timeless story, but it also projects into the future. So there's like an eschatological reality to the icons as well. And I can't really. I mean, I know a lot of art can sort of do similar types of things. I don't know. I'm thinking like Lord of the Rings is, you know, according to Tolkien, like his historical fiction. But it doesn't really tell you about. I mean, it tells you moral things about life and meaning, but it doesn't tell you the future. It doesn't tell you all of reality in. In a single image. And the cosmic scope of icons, I think, is unique in that way. I just thought it was probably. Probably already providentially being prepared for Orthodox through. Yeah, through what you did and what you were into. And I talked to a lot of people from the world of the arts and, you know, the domain of the creative who could become Orthodox. And there's a lot of similar patterns with those people that they were already kind of prepared for that, you know, through.

[C]

So how would you explain what an icon is to someone who doesn't know what that is? I only say that just because I'm sure by the time this goes up, like, yeah, a lot of people that follow me don't. Don't know, like, what we're talking about.

[B]

So probably everybody's knows about religious artwork. And for the Orthodox Church, icons are not just religious art. They're much more than that. So for us, there's a very specific, what we call canonical or sort of limitations on how you do the art or the writing of an icon or the painting of an icon. And that has to do with expressing the theology of this world and the next world or heather in a very limited space. So you have to use certain patterns of symbolic color, certain ways of presenting people's Lives and stories, so that you accurately capture not something abstract or ahistorical. It has to actually capture the history. So, for example, St. Moses the Black, he'll never be like, in an icon, like a gray dude. He'll always be the black dude that he was because that's who he was, and he will be for all eternity. So icons have to express the actual historical reality as well as also stepping into and presenting what we call windows to heaven. So an icon is basically a window into the next dimension, because when. When we go to the liturgy, we actually believe that. That it is literally heaven on earth. It's not a symbol necessarily, but it's symbols as reality. In the Old Testament, it was symbols of heaven and what was to come. We think when Christ came, he brought all that reality at the first advent, whereas Protestants, for example, they typically will postpone a lot of that to the second Advent. So an icon is a window into heaven, and it's the end times, it's the eschaton, the end of the world right now in reality at this time. So it kind of steps out of time and space. And that's why it has those unique features that you mentioned in terms of dimensionality and, you know, telling the past and the future in one single image. And not all art does that. And that's why for us, it's much more than just art. It's also a holy thing.

[C]

Yeah, cool.

[B]

So

[C]

you're so poetic sometimes I don't think you realize it. I appreciate you.

[B]

I appreciate that this was interesting. I do want to talk more about other things that you found theologically relevant to your life. You talked about the book of Job in the past, which is. Nobody ever talks about the book Job. This is very overlooked. I thought that was interesting that you brought that up before. We do, though, now that we're talking about imagery and iconography and we talked about, you know, phones and tech and art and all that. You did make some interesting comments that you're very much pro human creativity. And you've got songs, right. I Am a Machine. You've got songs that, you know. I mean, the way I was interpreting it was like sort of dystopian warning almost about where we're going.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And so I wanted to touch on that because, you know, orthodoxy not going to have. We shouldn't have like an AI icon in the church. Right. We would have. It has to be painted with a human hand.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I'm. I wanted to know, do you feel that not just because of 2020, but is there something seeping through the art that you do that's warning of technocracy.

[C]

I don't know. I mean, I'm. My strong point, I think, in advice giving, which I don't like to do at all, is just like trying my best to lead by example in whatever way I can, you know, And I think that if somebody that, you know, has odds against them or, you know, it's like you can still try and you can still work hard and you can still figure out how to do something. And I think that, like, I'm in no position to talk about necessarily like, AI or the. I don't know much about it, to be honest. Like, I just know that I appreciate the human fingerprint. You know, I. I mean, that's why I love old Victorian homes. You know, there's These things are storytelling and they're made by a human, you know, like, all aspects of them.

[B]

Well, this was in the context I think, of you discussing your house.

[C]

And that was okay.

[B]

Everything was. You wanted to have that human element in contrast to everything nowadays sort of being replaced with.

[C]

I mean, I try to have it in everything, you know, I mean, like, I homeschool my son. And it's like, I look at, you know, it's. I'm very passionate about homeschooling, by the way. But, you know, I have friends that leofor had these two little friends that had some circumstances and then they had to be put, not had to, but they're now in public.

[B]

Put down.

[C]

Public school? No, they're in public school. And, you know, and so my friend, who. She's my trainer, and so when I see. I see her on a pretty regular basis, I check in, like, how are the kids? And stuff. And there are some. There's some complaints, you know, of the public school system. Like, for example, these are things I don't know because my kid doesn't go there anymore. And when I went to school, it was a long time ago, so things have changed a lot and they've escalated quite quickly, especially with technology. And she told me that kids in elementary school now are. It's mandatory to have these Chromebooks. It's like a laptop and it comes with AI in it. And so I was, you know, I had. I had read some articles and there are some actual studies that they, you know, they've been tracking our progress since I think, the 60s. And during every introduction of technology, whether it's the calculator to, like, I remember when computers were invented or whatever, and they. And we got Oregon Trail and It was like all of us gathered around one computer and watched like the black screen with the green letters, you know, and, and I thought, oh, we must be improving. And it looked, and every landmark proves that our, our children's IQs are dropping. So this last generation, it's getting so bad, you know, it's like so, so do I have opinions of technology. I think that there are so many beautiful things that happen with, you know, I love the fact that we can ride on airplanes and calculators, cell phones or, you know, all that stuff. But as a homeschool mom, like there's just none of that here. I just think there's such an importance in, you know, Leo far learning things that are almost also not even relevant anymore. Like, like the other day when we were, he just graduated first grade, so he's learning like how to tell time. And I was thinking about how like nobody wears like clock clocks. There's no clocks are irrelevant. We have wind up grandfather clocks here, you know. But I was like, it's so important for leopard to learn this because like he's learning how to count by fives. He could, you know, like, it's not just something that's gonna, you know, like he's learning what a penny is. We're not even printing pennies anymore. But it's helping his math, you know, he's learning cursive even though they're not teaching that in, in public school anymore. But I remember when I first started learning how to draw like filigree, like, like baroque architectural filigree, which is one of my favorite things to draw. I mean that, that directly correlates to penmanship, you know. So anyways, will I ever use AI? Probably. I mean, I probably should, you know, in some business aspects, I'm sure, you know, for efficiency or whatever. But I think when it comes to art, I'm always going to be the analog lady, you know. And when it comes to my music, you know, we, I love synthesizers and that's a technology. I learned how to play music classically. I was classically trained since I was 5 years old. So I love all the, you know, the greats and stuff. But, but I still. We play the instruments, you know, and in our recordings we, you know, we can program certain things. But for the most part all of our sound design is created. So it's cool. I think, I think nerds can tell the difference. I'm a nerd, so, you know, it's, it's cool. But I also don't knock like people who make computer Music too. Like, that's cool, you know, like, there's a. Probably a place for it, you know, it's not. But yeah, I don't think I'm ever gonna be a fan of, like, an AI artist. That sounds.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

I don't know. I can't. Something feels weird about that.

[B]

Well, you know, when you've been on various, you know, synthwave type tracks, you did the Gunship song, and you do that in your own work. And I've always thought there was something kind of implicit in synthwave and then in Vaporwave as well. That's a critique of where we're going because it's like the art is getting more and more corporate, but also soulless. And then that, then, like Vaporway, for example, was a critique of that soullessness by kind of giving it some soul and giving it a new. A new form of life. But it's also critiquing the lack of life that that whole era has. And then within, like, Synthwave stuff, there's always been a kind of a dystopian vibe to it. And Gunship stuff is very dystopian. So that's why I was asking about, like, I know that it's not a question of could we use a little bit of AI here or there, do we do synthesizers or whatever? But there's something creeping, a creeping terror that has to do with the phones. I think the phone. Like, people are going insane from phones. Yeah, I know that's kind of cliche because boomers fuss about phones, but I'm just saying, like, I'm actually noticing more and more lately, I think people are actually, like, going insane insane from their phones. I mean, so I'm curious.

[C]

Damage to that. Yeah.

[B]

Is there a anti dystopian, dystopian element to some of your tracks? Like is or Is I Am a Machine, for example. Is that just autobiographical about, like, something.

[C]

No, I mean, I'm A Machine is about what we're talking about now, you know? And I mean, I think, like, how do we put this? The. How do we infuse soul into the robots somehow? You know? But, yeah, I, I, I don't. I don't know. I.

[B]

You have to know this because you're homeschooling. So you sense this, like.

[C]

Yeah, for sure. And also, too. But there's. There's a surrender. And I think that has to do with my faith is that, like, you know, we can look around and see that the world is falling apart and that, you know, evil seems to be winning in some ways. And the pendulum swinging, maybe in others, in other ways. But like, at the end of the day, like, we knew all this was coming. Like, it says it in the Bible, like, you know, so I think we can find a comfort that, like, in the sense that, like, I don't. We don't. Nobody knows the end day, but. But maybe we are in the end times. But, like, it just means we're probably one step closer to seeing his face, which I think is pretty cool. So, you know, for us, it's like, what do we do? For now, like, I mean, I'm. I am a little bit of a, you know, one of those weirdo preppers. I like to have my own water source and like, you know, have land. Like, I prioritize land to grow food eventually, you know, but it's not. Whereas before I was like, I had fancy cars. I'm like, I could care less about any of that now, you know, we live like, you know, we got a house that's on, you know, a small amount of land, but enough to. To do something with in case. If and when the apocalypse happens. You know, we might. We might buy a little bit of time, you know, but you can also drive yourself crazy doing that too, you know, But I don't know. But yeah, as far as like, AI and stuff, like, I just kind of stay away from a lot of it, to be honest. I mean, I'm not.

[B]

I'm.

[C]

I'm. But I'm not terrified yet.

[B]

I don't even know if it's the AI. I'm just more concerned with, like, I

[C]

don't know, technology in general.

[B]

No, no, no, not even. It's. It's something to do with like. I'm going to sound full schizo here, but like, the signals and the phones is. Something is going on. Let's just make people insane because we

[C]

haven't ring the bell about 5G forever now. They're like. I mean, it's killing the plants around them. I mean, it's.

[B]

It's.

[C]

You can see, you know. Did you see the video of the guy with like the. The neon light bulb? Let's. I mean, that can't not affect you, you know. But I also think our bodies are so magically and perfectly created. I don't think they're adaptive to everything. That's why we have cancer. But like, But I think that there. It's. It's constantly fighting for you, you know, so.

[B]

So you would say you're not pro cancer if you run for office. Would that be on the Platform. Could we get that on record now? You know, all I've been doing is sitting here thinking of dad jokes the entire time. That's all I've thought about, jokes. Because that's the vibe. That's the vibe that it went into. So when you were, like. You were talking about telling time, I was gonna say, oh, telling time. What. What would you tell time if you could talk?

[C]

Dude. Okay, so I got my son this. This. This phone. It's a landline. Cause I'm trying to give him the gift of the 90s or whatever. And so it's. It's like a landline that he can only call his friends and. And numbers that I've approved or whatever. And so we were trying to explain to him, like, the. Is your refrigerator running Joke. So a prank call, you know, and he. And I couldn't figure out a way to explain that. Like, it's not running, but it's, you know. So now he, like, he'll prank somebody and then explain to them.

[B]

He explains it. That's nice. You gotta. Yeah, introduce him to the jerky boys. And then he'll know. Frank Rezo. Frank Rizzo. So we talked about, you know, periods when you were really facing up to mortality. You've read books about death, coping with death?

[C]

Well, I've always been surrounded by the subject. I mean, when I used to tattoo, I tattooed portraits. So most people don't get portraits because they're bored. It's usually people that mean a lot to them, whether it's loved one they've lost or, you know, a musician, whatever it is, you know, a hero in their life. So towards the end of my career, I mean, the last decade, I would say I dedicated to just tattooing people with the hardest stories. So I, you know, I. I stopped tattooing for money during that time. In the beginning, I was just tattooing, like, pretty, beautiful images. And then. And then I would listen to people's stories, and it was like, you know, I've tattooed the father who accidentally killed his only son. And, you know, and he wanted to get something that you might consider silly because it's like, who would want that? So I started reading about books on bereavement and just the death process in general. And it wasn't, you know, anything other than just like, you know, I'm. I'm not a therapist. I'm not equipped for this. And I was taking a lot of it on. But I think the more. Especially in, like, this country, people are scared to talk about things like that. Whereas, like, for Me, I think it's like, it's the most human thing you could do because it's the one thing that you're gonna die. We're gonna. We're all gonna experience it in some capacity, so it's okay to talk about it. And I think there are certain ways that are more sincere and less sincere. And so. Yeah. So that, to answer your question, that's why death was always kind of in my peripheral. And I just never have. I'm. I'm not uncomfortable talking about it.

[B]

And nobody talks about the Book of Job. And I think when this came up for whatever interview was, you mentioned the Book of Job, and that was.

[C]

I think I was reading it at the time.

[B]

Yeah, that was something that resonated with you. Why?

[C]

I think that, like, in the times where the suffering is taking place, it's like, if I could strive to be more like Job, I mean, it's an example of how I want to be. You know, I'm not there yet. I mean, some days more than others. But I think that's why I had brought it up or it came up in that other conversation. But, yeah.

[B]

Well, what's interesting, where I was going with it was a lot of people miss how crystal logical Job is because there's so much in it that's. And then there's specific, like, references to the Redeemer, I will see him on the last day, which are specific, you know, prophecies of Christ. But it's also this sort of mysterious book that we don't actually know what time period it is. We know it's ancient. We don't know exactly if it was person adjacent to Israel or living in ancient Israel. But you have this pattern of a man, you know, tempted, a man who goes through the worst types of suffering, and then in the end triumphs and is given, you know, manifold blessings. And that. That is the Katabasis death, real resurrection motif that you see in the life of Christ.

[C]

I honestly never thought of that. I didn't know. That's so cool.

[B]

So many Old Testament people are that way in terms of typology. Like, you see this with Jeremiah when Jeremiah's persecuted by Israel. And there's all these things that Jeremiah says in the book, like he preaches at the Israelites and rebukes them for giving into the false teachings of the lawyers and the scribes. Exactly parallel to what Jesus says to the pharisees in Matthew 23. There's a whole passage in Jeremiah about the good shepherd and Christ being. Or God being the shepherd. To Israel. And then Jesus matches what Jeremiah preaches. Jeremiah's like led down into a pit and then he's imprisoned there. That's Christ's descent into Hades. All of these prophets and Jesus himself makes this point even with Joe when he says, just as Joe was in the heart of the whale, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights. So you notice this pattern of it's not just persecution and we likening our stuff or we sort of join our sufferings to Christ, which is what we're supposed to do to get through it, but it's also a descent into Hades, which you see over and over and over in the Old Testament, which. And that's important because Protestants in Rome, although they confess the descent into Hades, it doesn't really have a lot of significance in the theology. But for orthodoxy, harrowing of Hades is huge because it means that death is not actually fearful or scary anymore because he's triumph over it. So it's actually, as Saint Athanasius says, death is actually good for us. It's the doorway to eternal life. We're not worried about it. So I say all that to say that suffering in our paradigm actually is transfigured to be meaningful outside of our paradigm suffering. And I'm not saying that other Christian groups don't have a conception of suffering or united to Christ's passion, but for us, I think it's just much more profound than it's a lot. We have a better toolkit to deal with it. And that's the key to the book of Job, is that it's mirrors Christ's life, even though obviously Job is just merely a man. Yeah, but Christ is not merely a man. He's also the Son of God. So I love that the. There's almost in everybody's turn towards Orthodoxy, I've noticed some point where they kind of come to the end of themselves. And I don't just mean a conversion, like, because everybody who even converts to Protestantism or evangelicalism, like, yeah, I came to the end of myself and I saw my sins and. But there's something about going into orthodoxy where there's a narrow passageway of humility that requires you to be like, it's not just that I had this experience, like, everything has got to be transformed. Does that make sense? Like, yeah, in Protestantism, you can kind of like make a decision of like, oh, well, yeah, I did that thing last year where I prayed the sinner's prayer at the Billy Graham thing. And I'm cool. But now it's like, no, every day is now transformed. So it's. It's an eternal thing now. It's not even a, like, temporal thing anyway. All I'm saying is that.

[C]

What do you mean it's an eternal thing? But you mean the. The process or what do you.

[B]

We will always be this. Like the Cappadocians say, we will always be moving up into God. So in the eschaton, we don't have the cessation of movement like the pl. The Platonist old philosophers, they used to think that, like, well, when you go on, you want to get rid. You want to. You want to leave the domain of flocks and change. So this world is like temporal. It's. There's movement, there's change. And so they reason that whatever the good world is, it's got to be the opposite, this one. So there can't be change or movement or whatever. And this is what led a lot of the Greeks and Greek philosophers to say, how could there be a Bali Resurrection? Because body implies movement, change, and they just assume that you couldn't have that in the eternal state. So what I was saying is that for us, movement, body, image, form, all of these things that we think of as characterizing this world, they're not bad. They're not like Platonists, Neoplatonists, or Gnostics. They would denigrate the body in this world, in creation. And it's not bad. Those things are all good because they continue on into eternity. So that's what I meant by not that suffering is eternal, but that. I mean, we don't think about it like a new heavens and a new earth. We think of it. Most people think. Think of it like, oh, when I go to heaven, it's like my mind goes to this cloud world and I'm like a, you know, mind ball floating around. No, you're actually going to be in this body.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And you're going to have the same characteristics to a degree that you had. Right. Moses the Black is still a black dude. He doesn't become a graded. So our history matters. We retain it even into the eschaton. Not all the bad parts, but the good parts. So that's our perspective. And that makes sense. All of what we go through, way more meaningful. And you can put it into perspective. And if you don't have that cosmic perspective, what I'm getting at is that the sufferings appear to be pointless. Why am I going through this? Why is this happening to me? But you can actually through this paradigm, through the Orthodox paradigm, I think it makes a lot more sense. Suffering takes on the meaning of being a means of transfiguration at theosis. That's all I'm saying.

[C]

That's cool.

[B]

You talked about influences, and most of them, I was like, yeah, I like them. I like them. Depeche Mode, Cure, industrial music now. Yeah, yeah. And we like your stuff. You come up regularly in our playlist. Okay, right. So what's your number one vibe influence right now?

[C]

I don't. I don't really listen to a lot of music like that anymore. I listen to a lot of chants.

[B]

Yeah, you gotta do Orthodox chant.

[C]

Am I going to do one right

[B]

now, like on your album?

[C]

Oh, I actually am. I wanted to end. End this next album with a cover of oh, Glad Some Light, but a Byzantine version.

[B]

But you singing or.

[C]

I would sing it and instead of having a choir, I was gonna just replace with drone sounds. You know, I was talking because people were like, are you gonna make worship album? I'm never gonna make a worship album. You know, it's one of those things that. Especially now when I, you know, hear our choir. And so I'm like, it's really not broken. Like, why would we even try? I mean, this is. And that's why. Gladsome Light. To me, it's the most perfect worship song. Like, it's perfection. Every word. It's one minute long and it's. We don't even know who wrote it. It's one of the oldest. I think it's 1500 years old, that they're. They can track, trace it.

[B]

So it's just like a acapella.

[C]

Yeah. So typically, it's. I mean, obviously, yeah. And there's a Byzantine version that I love. I've. Like, we. At our parish, they sing it during great Vespers. Every. Every great vespers. And. And one day I asked one of the people in our choir, like, hey, I'd love to hear like a recording of this, you know, And I. I went on YouTube and I can only find one. One recording. But every. It's. It's. It's a tricky one. It's a tricky one to find, like the. The Byzantine version. So. So yeah, that I am going to incorporate that in the next. I have the blessing from my priest and I. You know.

[B]

But you're. I mean, the rest of the album is going to be what, electronic? Yeah, yeah.

[C]

I make electronic music, so I like 80s style, but a little darker and, you know, trying to bring that soul into the electronic realm.

[B]

I sent you my Mormon space wise New wave.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

And there was no comment.

[C]

So I guess that tells me that left on Red.

[B]

Yeah. Actually, I have to give a shout out. Dr. Evo, he did really good on that one, but.

[C]

Oh, a person made that or.

[B]

Yeah. Oh, it's actual music.

[C]

Oh, actual music.

[B]

You should listen to it.

[C]

I thought it was.

[B]

No, it's not. No, he's a. He's a legit producer. Like an actual.

[C]

But you wrote the lyrics.

[B]

I sing.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, but you wrote the lyrics.

[B]

Well, they're all improv, so they were never written. But they're written in my head.

[C]

Oh, freestyle.

[B]

I'm a freestyler. Yeah. You're influenced by teen angst music.

[C]

No, you know, I struggle. I feel like my. My first album was just all like sad love songs. That was my favorite genre at the time and I still love that. But it feels a bit self indulgent now. I mean, I think it's. It's. I mean, there's things that I'm frustrated with and I think a lot of those things that I talk about, about those frustrations, you know, there's. I don't like the divide, you know, so this next album, we've been writing a lot about that type of thing, but we're still in the. In the stages of writing, so we have, like a few more rounds to go.

[B]

But is there a new single?

[C]

Nothing's out yet.

[B]

Nothing.

[C]

Okay.

[B]

When is. Do you know when there will be a single?

[C]

We're hoping for the fall, but when

[B]

it comes to the. The new album, is this gonna be like heavy scent, heavy dark themes, or are we getting a lighter, more positive theme here?

[C]

I don't. I don't think I can do happy. So that's. It's not. I don't know. Well, I have joy in my life. I do. I just. I. It's the, you know, find me in the minor chord.

[B]

So when. When Fear you comes on, we actually enjoy it. I sing it and I'm happy.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

So my vibing wrong is I'm supposed to.

[C]

I mean, that song was. That album was about one particular, like, relationship that was very dysfunctional. So. But it's, you know.

[B]

Yeah, I had fun with those songs. So, Jimmy, remind me, we have to be sad now when we hear that.

[C]

No, don't be.

[B]

So we talked about the book of Joe. We talked about music wise lost comments on let's talk about orthodoxy one last time because this is kind of. As far as I'm aware, you might have done a Different interview that I just never caught.

[C]

But the scene, I've never really talked about this. I've done one interview with Father John Parker, but it hasn't been released yet.

[B]

But we have to hurry and release this before he does because I want to be the first to get you talking about. So, you know, I tend to shy

[C]

away from talking about my faith publicly. And it's not for any other reason than I just don't feel worthy or equipped in a lot of ways. And it's not this just me being honest. It's like there's so many people that are so well versed and so eloquent in their speaking. I, you know, I think we talked a little bit about this earlier, but I think I shine brightest when it's one on one. And I think if someone wants to talk to me about it, like if my friends were to text me about it, which is it's happened and I've gone to church with, taken my friend to church, it's cool. But as you know, there's some people that have the calling to be the priests or what you do, for example, you know, but whereas for me I've like, I love orthodox Christianity so much that I would rather protect it from my, my dumbness, you know, So I can only speak from the heart, from my experience. But as far as like theology goes, I leave it to the pros for now at least.

[B]

The reason I ask about that for the sake of my audience is more so. Although I know you're not in the apologetics domain or whatever, but usually people have a couple hang ups or things that kind of, when they first encountered, you know, the realm of orthodoxy, they like what? These pictures are weird. Why do they have that? Like, I was just curious about what a couple hang ups might have been that you kind of eventually worked through. Were there any.

[C]

I mean, I had questions, which I think everyone should have questions because it's important to understand what you do when we don't just blindly do things, you know, Whereas I think a lot of times, and not again, not to knock my Protestant friends, but it's like a lot of times I would see people just kind of going through the motions versus understanding why, why do we do this or why does the Bible say that? You know, like, you know, I wanted to understand like the commandment about the

[B]

Sabbath or, you know, you got an SDA background, right? Seven Day Adventist, is that right?

[C]

Yeah, but I usually don't like to bring that up because again, I think everyone's going through their, you Know, I have my, my, my own views on that now as, as an adult and understanding things. And it's like, you know, it's a very fringe.

[B]

The reason I say that is, did that perhaps raise an issue with, well, why Sunday versus Saturday or why the images in the church? Because a lot of that realm.

[C]

No, because, you know, I was brought up that way and then I was, I strayed from, from faith altogether for, for many, for decades. So it's not like I was coming in. I mean, there are some things like I never, you know, I never ate shrimp. Yeah, I still have it. It's not now, it's for other reasons, but before it was because that's what, someday Adventists don't eat fish without scales or, you know, pork and things like that. But as far as theology, no, no one from the Protestant realm answered questions to me. So it wasn't, it wasn't like, this is where I talk about my, the cup wasn't filled, you know, like, so it wasn't until I, I entered the Orthodox Church that I just really started having an understanding. So going back to what you're saying is like, you know, I think it's important to ask the questions and that way you can talk to your friends about it when they do have, you know, and, and for me, I always look at it from the lens of a mom. I want to be able to answer Leofar's question so that, you know, as he gets older, he's equipped with the ability to have conversations with his friends who are not going to be Christian, you know, and, and not just do it because mommy and daddy brought us up this way, you know, so. Yeah, and I'm still obviously learning all the time. But as far as hang ups, I, I, I didn't really have any hang ups. Like, I really understood what venerating the saints meant. It wasn't, you know, I had a friend that explained it to me because I did say that to him. I was like, what's, what's up with all those saints? That's kind of weird, right? And then he, he helped me understand it and I was like, oh my gosh. Like, yeah, like, how is it that I know about all the fun facts of every musician that played in the Cure? You know? And it's like, why does everybody know when Taylor Swift is getting married? Like, you know, it's like, these are the posters I want on my wall. Do you know what I mean? So these are my friends. I want to know all those stats. And it's like those are my examples versus, you know, and I'm not saying that you can't admire our human friends and stuff, but like, but so that made a lot more sense to me, I think. Like, so I didn't have any hang ups with, you know, the mother of God, you know, I think a lot of Protestants have a big hang up with it and I think that's a misunderstanding, that's all, you know. But like, when I talk to my dad about it, for example, my dad's not orthodox and he loves Jesus a lot, you know, and, but, and he'll say things like, I looked it up, you know, and he's like, it's just very depressing and like for him, you know. And I go, yeah, for you. But, you know, I've been to like the mega churches or, or the regular smaller churches too. And, and I've seen the bands play. I've listened to the, the hymns from the 70s and I, it, it derails me, you know, it pulls me up because I'm like, oh, this is pop structure. All right, here comes the drop. And then here, you know, it's like, and it's like some, the, the, the lyrics are so. It could be a love song about a romance. And to me, so it takes me out and where. That brings joy for a lot of other people and they're listening to their car and, and they're. I think there's a lot of people that it really does bring them closer to God. So I'm not knocking that either. But for me, someone who comes from an extreme darkness, like, I need the strictness. I like the tradition. I like the simplicity of just. It's so direct, you know. And I remember Father Stephen, my spiritual father, he, when I was a catechumen, he had written a little tiny. It's like a pamphlet book on liturgy. And it explains. Why do the readers sound like that, you know, because like, for those that don't know, like there's. When they're reading scripture, it almost, it could sound like you're at an auction to some people if they don't know, you know, and it's kind of just this monotone, da da da da da da da da da, you know, But I remember like in, in that little pamphlet says, like, why do they sound like that? And it's like we're not putting our own personal inflection into things because we want the message to come out and be delivered clearly. And I just had such a deep appreciation for that because it's not a concert. It's not just that, but it's like, I would have a hard time, like. Like, in July, I signed up for an iconography class where I'm gonna hopefully, you know, learn. And I think my biggest fear is that I won't. I just want to be able to not put myself into it, you know, because I know what an icon means, and I've never not done that in my art, you know, so I appreciate that. You know, Whereas someone like my dad, it might not resonate a certain way, and I would hope it would one day. Like, he came for the first time to my church when Leo far got baptized, and I was a little bit, like, nervous. Not nervous, but just more, I guess, just conscious of it, you know? And at one point, I looked over and he was, you know, he was like, filming all of it on his cell phone, which made me very happy, even though I know a lot of orthodox get annoyed when people film stuff. But, like, to me, it was like, oh, my dad's absorbing this, and he's seeing that this is something so special. And I caught him, like, looking at, like, the altar on his phone. I'm like, why would he be filming that if he didn't, if he wasn't in awe of it? And I think that that's, you know, I'm a. I think the all senses really is. Makes me feel like it's true worship. Like, I really feel like, with all my being, worshiping the Lord, whereas, like, when I would go to the Protestant flavor, it feels more like I'm attending a lecture hall or a TED Talk or something. And, you know, again, like, for someone like my dad, that really, you know, who am I to question whether it brings them closer to Christ or not, you know? But for me, oh, my gosh, it's just so, so powerful, you know, it's so. I look forward to it, you know?

[B]

Thank you so much, Kat.

[C]

Yeah, no, thanks for coming over. I always enjoy hanging out. This is the second time we've hung out, and I've. I love having you in the home and you and Jamie, and it's just I. I feel lucky to be your friend, so.

[B]

Absolutely. Thank you guys so much. Be sure to hit, like, share. Leave comments below.

[C]

Smash that subscribe button.

[B]

Also list more dad jokes below that could have been said that were not said. And I will do dad jokes next time for more of them. Thank you, guys.

[C]

Oh, I love you. Come here.