Live Debate: Jay Dyer VS Brian Shapiro: Trump, Jones, God, Religion!

Summary

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Jay'sAnalysis Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode Title:

Live Debate: Jay Dyer VS Brian Shapiro – Trump, Jones, God, Religion!

March 16, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode features a spirited, two-hour debate between Jay Dyer (Orthodox Christian philosopher and commentator) and Brian Shapiro (news talk radio host) moderated by Sean. The discussion covers complex and controversial issues in U.S. politics and society, including media ethics, the legacy of Alex Jones, Donald Trump, war with Iran, immigration, race, gender roles, democracy, and the nature of objective ethics and religion. The debate is notable for its direct and sometimes heated exchanges, with both participants challenging each other's philosophical and moral foundations, as well as critiquing the behaviors and influence of key right-wing figures.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

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1. Alex Jones, Sandy Hook, and Guilt by Association

Brian Shapiro’s Critique

• Opens by pressing Jay Dyer on his public association with Alex Jones, alleging that Jones’s lies about Sandy Hook were knowingly harmful and rooted in profit-seeking:
  “He called them actors and he made their pain worse. And I find only a reprehensible, despicable human being would do what Alex Jones does.” (03:45)
• Argues that being friends or associates with Jones is ethically indefensible, repeatedly pressing Jay for condemnation and questioning his moral calculus.

Jay Dyer’s Response

• Jay concedes Alex made mistakes and called out the poor vetting of guests like Wolfgang Halbig, but maintains Jones was “sincere… willing to change his mind and admit he was wrong.” (20:49)
• Argues that focusing on “guilt by association” is inconsistent and should not be the primary lens for moral or media evaluation.

Notable Exchange:

• Brian Shapiro: “I think Alex Jones is a scumbag… I could never associate myself with somebody like that.” (06:53)
• Jay Dyer: “But what I'm illustrating is that nobody consistently can apply that in media… everybody has friends that you might find reprehensible...” (17:34)

Timestamps:

• 03:45 — Brian’s opening argument
• 07:10 — Defining “guilt by association”
• 19:23 — Jay: “Usually ends up not worth debating”

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2. Conspiracy Theories, COVID, the Deep State, & Media Responsibility

• Brian denounces the culture of “tinfoil hat” conspiracy in Jones’s network, emphasizing harms caused by vaccine misinformation and false allegations.
• Jay outlines the “deep state” as a “breakaway national security apparatus” influenced by the CFR and Trilateral Commission, citing declassified documents. (13:37)
• Brian mocks claims about Obama “secretly running” Biden’s White House, and especially “childish” or bigoted humor/jokes made on air.
• There’s debate about platform responsibility and whether “jokes” or conspiracies that have real-world harm are uniquely culpable.

Quotes:

• Brian: “To me, Alex Jones does what Candace Owens does, which is say things that you know are not true… and they don't care.” (05:10)
• Jay: “I think media ends up being a lot of low tier slop and debating about things that are not really that substantial, such as people's motives or intentionality…” (28:52)

Timestamps:

• 13:05 — Deep State debate
• 14:20 — Obama/Biden conspiracy claims

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3. Trump, War in Iran, and U.S. Foreign Policy

• Both hosts decry the U.S. tendency toward regime change and criticize the 2020s war escalation with Iran.
• Jay traces the pattern of U.S./CIA interventionism from the 1953 Iran coup to current pressures.
• Brian, while agreeing with much of Jay’s anti-war position, prods Jay about whether he regrets voting for Trump given Trump’s failures and “madman” approach to Iran.
• Both agree the U.S. war in Iraq was a disaster; Jay supports “issues-based” voting, not personalities.

Timestamps:

• 32:01 — Jay on Iran: “I’ve been anti-war pretty much… most wars are fought for interest, not in the best purview of the American people.”
• 35:16 — Brian: “It pains me to say I agree with a lot of what you just said…”

Notable Moment:

• Jay: “I've never been pro war all the way back to 911…” (32:01)

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4. Immigration, Race, and National Identity

• Brian advocates for compassionate immigration reform, emphasizing proper vetting but condemning blanket anti-immigrant sentiment as “un-American” and often racist.
• Jay supports closing the borders, opposes demographic “replacement,” and claims mass migration is a form of “warfare” used by elites to destabilize traditional Western societies; cites sources like Kelly Greenhill and the Kalergi Plan. (46:21)
• Heated exchanges about “subjective vs. objective” morality in immigration policy, whether “diversity” is beneficial, and how countries should determine who is admitted.
• Jay: “I would, I would want the law to be changed on that, yes [anchor babies].” (58:14)
• Brian accuses Jay’s stance of being racist-by-effect, while Jay claims Brian’s own basis for equality and non-discrimination is “subjective” and, therefore, inconsistent.

Quotes:

• Brian: “I want everyone to have the same opportunity… as long as you're vetted properly.” (53:09)
• Jay: “The demographic replacement of a people group is a form of genocide and warfare.” (77:34)
• Brian: “Racism is wrong on any basis.” (81:00)

Timestamps:

• 46:21 — Jay: Immigration as demographic warfare
• 77:34 — Jay: “Genocide and warfare”

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5. Democracy, Monarchy, and Free Will

• Jay is openly skeptical (even mocking) of democracy, calling it “retarded” and saying he’s more of a monarchist: “I think democracy, like Plato says, is retarded.” (86:51)
• Brian finds this position antithetical to American values and fears its implications, especially in curtailing freedoms.
• The debate segues into whether any election is trustworthy (with Jay expressing suspicion about CIA meddling in U.S. elections based on their history abroad).

Quotes:

• Jay: “I'm more of a monarchist. I believe in monarchy.” (86:44)
• Brian: “You don't think we should have elections in this country?” (86:41)

Timestamps:

• 86:51 — Jay ridiculing democracy
• 90:57 — The nature of elections and trust

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6. Gender, Women in Society, and Misogyny

• Jay claims women are not suited for frontline combat or politics, suggesting their “norm” should be the home; insists society functions best under traditional Christian gender roles. (112:05)
• Brian finds this view “misogynistic,” arguing that women should have full autonomy and equal rights in all fields.
• Exchange becomes emblematic of their broader debate: Jay claims Brian’s rejection of gender norms is “subjective,” Brian claims Jay’s argument is oppressive and unfounded.

Quotes:

• Jay: “I think women are made to be at home.” (112:05)
• Brian: “I think that's a misogynistic opinion.” (117:06)

Timestamps:

• 112:05 — Gender roles
• 117:06 — Misogyny accusation

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7. Religion, Objective Morality & Philosophy

• Jay presses Brian on the foundation for his ethics, repeatedly challenging whether “racism” or “bigotry” is universally wrong or just Brian's subjective preference.
• Brian admits some things are “subjective” but maintains racism is absolutely wrong; Jay points out the contradiction.
• Extended back-and-forth about the nature of free will, whether the existence of God/Heaven/Hell can be known or established, and whether one can judge another person's choices.
• Jay argues belief in “free will” is no less metaphysical than belief in God.

Quotes:

• Jay: “If free will is equated to the tooth fairy in most modern philosophy, then… why is it any different than believing in God?” (147:02)
• Brian: “Are we not all created as equals, or is that not – no, we're not all created.” (150:35)
• Brian: “I would never tell you that you can't think that way... I think that's fundamentally very important.” (155:12)

Timestamps:

• 81:00— Racism and ethics
• 147:02 — Free will vs. belief in God

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8. Epstein Files and Deep State

• Both agree on the gravity of the Epstein scandal, denounce the lack of accountability for high-profile figures, and criticize Trump and others’ failure to push for transparency or accountability.
• Jay calls the cover-up a “huge, huge mistake,” Brian presses that Trump is named repeatedly in the files and has not been held to account.

Quotes:

• Brian: “Donald Trump is mentioned more in the Epstein files than Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Bible.” (101:17)
• Jay: “Absolutely… the rest of the files should be released.” (103:32)

Timestamps:

• 100:00 — Introduction of Epstein topic
• 103:32 — Agreement on cover-up

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9. Debate Philosophies & Concluding Remarks

• Jay: views debate as a “chess game” governed by logic and consistency.
• Brian: sees debate as an opportunity to share perspectives, not to “convince” the other side or audience, emphasizing the value of respectful disagreement.

Quotes:

• Jay: “Debates are about trying to convince people. That's a classic debate.” (121:11)
• Brian: “When I wake up in the morning and I do my radio show, I'm never trying to convince anybody.” (121:09)

Timestamps:

• 121:09 — Approach to debate
• 155:12 — Brian's closing
• 155:13 — Jay’s closing

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

| Time | Quote | Speaker | |-----------|---------------------------------------------------------------------------------|-----------------| | 03:45 | “He called them actors and he made their pain worse… a reprehensible, despicable human being.” | Brian Shapiro | | 13:37 | “It’s the breakaway national security apparatus… installed at the time of World War II.” | Jay Dyer | | 32:01 | “I’ve been anti-war pretty much… most wars are fought for interest, not in the best purview of the American people.” | Jay Dyer | | 46:21 | “We don't need immigration really at all… the replacement of the indigenous people… a war crime.” | Jay Dyer | | 77:34 | “The demographic replacement of a people group is a form of genocide and warfare.” | Jay Dyer | | 81:00 | “Racism is wrong on any basis.” | Brian Shapiro | | 86:51 | “I think democracy, like Plato says, is retarded.” | Jay Dyer | | 101:17 | “Donald Trump is mentioned more in the Epstein files than Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Bible.” | Brian Shapiro | | 112:05 | “I think women are made to be at home.” | Jay Dyer | | 117:06 | “I think that's a misogynistic opinion.” | Brian Shapiro | | 147:02 | “If free will is equated to the tooth fairy in most modern philosophy, then… why is it any different than believing in God?” | Jay Dyer | | 155:12 | “I would never tell you that you can't think that way… I think that's fundamentally very important.” | Brian Shapiro |

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Structuring the Arguments: Head-to-Head Highlights

Areas of Fierce Disagreement

• Alex Jones: Harmful media vs. sincerity and intent
• Immigration: Moral, demographic, and legal justifications
• Gender Roles: Women in public life/politics vs. "traditional" roles
• Free Will & Ethics: Objective/subjective morality
• Religion: Grounds for universal claims, legitimacy of religious authority
• Democracy: Whether or not self-rule is a joke or an ideal

Areas of Agreement

• War in the Middle East: Particularly with respect to Iran and Iraq, both view U.S. intervention as largely negative
• Epstein Files: Both demand transparency and accountability, frustrated by lack of justice
• Critical of Trump’s Failings: Even Jay, as a former Trump voter, is critical of Trump’s shortcomings

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Summary for the Uninitiated

This episode is a thorough, often intense debate between two thinkers from opposite sides of the American sociopolitical spectrum. Brian Shapiro defends liberal, pluralistic, and secular values rooted in empathy and fairness—though at times struggles to ground these beyond common sense or sentiment. Jay Dyer, from an Orthodox conservative perspective, confronts Brian on the philosophical and logical underpinnings of his claims, defending positions on borders, traditional gender roles, and objective morality rooted in Christianity and critiques of modern liberalism. The debate is especially notable for its willingness to tackle the most heated topics in American life—media responsibility, the legacy of Trump, the fallout from Sandy Hook, race, gender, democracy, and the very possibility of ethical objectivity.

Despite deep disagreements, both debaters keep the discussion civil and thorough, with moments of humor and mutual acknowledgment of agreement where it occurs—most notably regarding the Epstein scandal and some aspects of foreign policy.

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Listen to This Episode If You Want…

• To hear candid arguments between rightwing traditionalist and centrist/liberal sensibilities
• To see contemporary hot topics—Trump, Jones, war, immigration, gender, and religion—debated live
• To understand the philosophical divide over objectivity, universalism, and subjectivity in ethics
• To appreciate the underlying principles and limits of debate between opposing worldviews

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Brian Shapiro]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Brian Shapiro]

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[Jay Dyer]

Okay, guys, got another debate for y' all today. We got Brian Shapiro, Jay Dyer, both have been on the show. Thanks for coming, guys. In person. Let's make this thing happen. So we're going to talk about Trump today, Iran and Alex Jones. I know Brian wanted to talk about Alex Jones, but.

[Brian Shapiro]

Absolutely.

[Jay Dyer]

You want to lead this thing off with Alex, Brian.

[Brian Shapiro]

All right, well, first of all, thanks for being here, man. Nice to meet you. I've seen, I've seen some of your stuff on social media. I'll be honest with you. What we do is it's probably a little different, right? As we were talking off the air, I. You debate. You've been doing this for like what, 25 years, right? Long time. I've been doing radio for almost that long, but my show is more of like the last 24 hours, you know, talking about news of the day and that sort of stuff. But. All right, let's start. I wanted to start off by asking you about something because I know you're friends with Alex Jones, right. And I know this is probably something where we'll get into it a little bit, but. Well, you know, I come from Connecticut, I was raised in Connecticut and obviously where the Sandy Hook shooting was. And I say to myself, and I've, listen, I've interviewed his ex wife. That's kind of irrelevant to this conversation. And I've had private conversations with her. But I've also interviewed some of the parents who have lost their children, 8 and 9 year olds that were decapitated. And Alex Jones made their pain worse. And I thought what he did was reprehensible. And then he used the excuse of psychosis, which I think is utter. He knew that that shooting happened. He not a stupid guy. And he only lied about it on the air with his huge platform and said that they were actors, you know what he said? And he only did that for clicks and money. And you're making the pain of parents, like I said, some of whom who I had to talk to an interview. And my heart goes out to them and I'm sure yours does as well. And he called them actors and he made their pain worse. And I find only a reprehensible, despicable human being would do what Alex Jones does. Now, he is a conspiracy theorist and I understand he says a lot of batshit crazy stuff, but if you don't hurt somebody by doing that, then I don't have a problem with it. You could think 911 was an inside job and you could find if you're not hurting anybody. But he hurt those people who are already grieving the loss of their children. And I'm wondering how you could be friends with somebody who, who does that. I just, I don't. It's. It's unbelievable to me that, that he would even do something like that and then blame it on psychosis. Like, how could you, how could you square up and be friends with somebody like that? Because I don't know you. I don't know you. I've never hung out with you. I'm just asking, like, how, how can you be friends with somebody who did that? And are you willing to call that out?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I think Alex himself has called that out. Alex has admitted that he made a huge mistake. I remember at the time when the trials were happening, one thing that I noticed in a lot of the, you know, examinations and the prosecution questioning was there seemed to be quite a bit of laxity when it came to vetting the guests. And that was Hammer Home with multiple people that produced the show. And the way that, I'm sure, you know, the way that media works, especially for high profile people, is a lot of that is farmed out to people that work for you to vet the guests and whatnot. So I think there was some significant failures mainly with vetting people like Wolfgang Halbig, people that ended up being, I Think probably con men. And Alex was lax in that. I think that was a huge mistake. I think that there is precedent, not for what happened at Sandy Hook, but for the idea of government being involved in types of things like that, like the Operation Gladio, for example. That's a publicly declassified document.

[Brian Shapiro]

I get that. But the government, as you know, wasn't involved in.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just saying there's precedent for that, understand? Which is why Alex would have had, in his mind, believe legitimacy. Legitimacy to question certain topics.

[Brian Shapiro]

So why would you question that, though? Why would you question a school shooting hours after innocent children are killed?

[Jay Dyer]

Because if Operation Gladiator includes public shootings at places like malls or perhaps even schools, there's. There's no reason why you couldn't.

[Brian Shapiro]

But wouldn't you question it if there was some sort of evidence to prove, like the 2020 election? I mean, Trump still says, I'm sure we can get into that. But it's like when, listen, if people have ideas or opinions, they're entitled to that. That's fine. But like I said, I'm not someone who's trying to censor free speech. But at the same, you say things that can hurt people. I know you're not a fan of Candace Owens. Neither am I. Okay. We both would agree on that. I'm friends with Tim Pool. He said some things about her that I actually agree with. But to me, Alex Jones does what Candace Owens does, which is say things that you know are not true, you know are not true. Alex Jones knew that innocent children were murdered. He knew that those weren't actors. They're dead. And yet he went on the air and, and called them actors. Those family members, as you know, were threatened, they had threats to their life. He knew that those children were dead. He knew that those families were grieving. I have an issue, not necessarily with conspiracy theorists, but conspiracy theorists like Candace Owens and like Alex Jones that say things knowing they're not true and knowing that they will hurt people. Alex Jones comments at times, not just the Sandy Hook shooting hurt people. And I find that only a despicable human being would profit off of something like that. I'm glad that he has to pay out that money. Like I said, I've had private conversations with his ex wife. I don't know what's true. I don't know what's not true. That's why I'm not going to share the conversations I had with her. But what I do know is I could never associate myself with somebody like that, who it's good to have differences of opinions. We probably have a lot of different opinions on. I think that's great. That's what makes America great. But I think Alex Jones is a scumbag. And by the way, I met Alex Jones, he is a different person off the camera. He doesn't have in my opinion that Persona or hey, was that good? Was this good? I mean, I don't know. I, I don't think he's a good person. And I'm not saying guilty by association. I'm not trying to make that argument. But I just can't fathom or understand how anybody could hang out with a guy like that who literally made that

[Jay Dyer]

would be guilt by association.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I'm just trying to understand how anybody, not just you, but anybody. Well would would be okay associate and you host on, on that network. Like I just don't understand.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, again, so that'd be like saying anybody involved in media who's involved with anybody that's made a mistake in media.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think that's a mistake. You know what I think a mistake is?

[Jay Dyer]

But how do you prove that it's

[Brian Shapiro]

not a mistake is locking your keys in your car.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

You mean to tell me that after this shooting happened where body bags were taken out of that school, that Alex Jones legitimately believed that, that those eight and nine year olds were actors? That's. I don't believe that.

[Jay Dyer]

I think that Alex legitimately believed that there was a variety of options that you could have.

[Brian Shapiro]

He called them actors, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I understand that but that's after having people on who were not properly vetted, like Wolfgang Hal, he has a

[Brian Shapiro]

lot of people on, on infowars that have zero credibility.

[Jay Dyer]

I actually agree that everybody who does media for the most part, I'm not talking about you, you. No, I'm just everybody in media has people on because it's media. Right? Media is kind of like, you know, it's about.

[Brian Shapiro]

But, but, but it's our responsibility to push back at those people.

[Jay Dyer]

I agree that and I think that my main criticism of Alex would have been and still has been there should have been a better vetting of the sources of these so called events. Because the main source at that time, because I was listening through that whole period was Wolfgang Halab who said I've worked in government, I worked in education, I was there. I know that this was a fraud. I went investigated and all that was not true. So he did not properly about this.

[Brian Shapiro]

He blamed it on psychosis. There is no medical information to prove

[Jay Dyer]

that okay, that could be. You mean his Y. Yeah, that could have been.

[Brian Shapiro]

He didn't provide any medical information that he had psychosis.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I don't know. I don't know. Alex's legal teams, you know.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, he's lying that they gave psychosis, you know that. Come on.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, I don't know what the legal team advice.

[Brian Shapiro]

They didn't show. Well, the legal team, if they're going to say he suffered from psychosis, there would have to be some evidence to prove that, which clearly they didn't show it wasn't psychosis. And I guess this is maybe where we disagree. People like Alex Jones and Candace Owens and many others, Laura Loomer, I could name you a lot of. They say things knowing that it will hurt people and they don't care. They say things knowing that it'll hurt people, knowing that it's probably not true. By the way, I don't buy the fact that Alex didn't think it was a real shooting. He knew it was. Like I said, Alex is not a stupid guy. He knew that there were innocent young children that died and he called them actors. Now, regardless of what all their stuff might have been going on in his mind, he made a lot of money off that. Now in the end, it's going to cost him money. I don't think we should be allowed to say things like that with no justification. And it hurts people. Those families had death threats. They had death threats, Jay, and they hadn't even buried their kids yet. Eight and nine year olds. And I, as you can see, I get visibly angry talking about this guy because I think he's a horrible human being and I think his entire network is a fucking joke. It's a bunch of tinfoil hat morons who spread conspiracy theories about COVID They spread conspiracy theories about the Deep State. They spread conspiracy theories about the 2020 election and the guy who runs the whole thing spread conspiracy theories about a shooting where a bunch of 8 and 9 year old kids were murdered were kept in. I mean, I don't even think the guy should be allowed to even have a show. That's my personal opinion.

[Jay Dyer]

Could you name another crazy temple hat that position that you think me or Alex or anybody has posited.

[Brian Shapiro]

I can't speak to you because I'll be honest with you. And I, I don't mean this.

[Jay Dyer]

The whole network is all crazy people.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I mean the regulars, I would assume you're a guest on there a lot and sometimes you, you. I'm talking about the regulars who do shows, you know, five days a week. They spread conspiracy theories about me. Harrison talked about me. Didn't even. And we talked about this off the air a couple minutes ago. Didn't even know my position on vaccines. And I don't want to get too deep into the vaccine stuff because, you know, some platforms don't allow it. Didn't even know my position on the vaccines and just assumed that I want everyone to get 10 boosters. They say things about people not doing their homework, not under even. And by the way, I said I would go on their show. I was talking to somebody from their network. I said, listen, I will go on that show and I will defend my positions. Harrison didn't want me on. I call that a coward. If you're willing to talk about somebody, which is fine. I'm a big boy. I can handle it. But then you don't want that person to come on. I invite anybody on my show. Nick Fuentes can do my show if he wants to. I think he's awful human being, but I would have. I would have had O.J. simpson do my show. It's not the criticism. He's no longer with us, unfortunately, or fortunately, whichever way you look at it. But I'm willing to have anybody on my show that I disagree with, even if they're despicable people. If Alex Jones wanted to do my show, I would probably be a little bit more heated with him than I am you, because I'm not blaming you for the stuff that Alex Jones said. The sun shining, birds are singing, and all feels right in the world until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression, no matter the season or time of year. At the American Psychiatric association foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all, because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all year round. Please visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more.

[Sean]

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[Jay Dyer]

But what's another topic that you think

[Brian Shapiro]

Covid, I think he spread lies about the vaccines he sells his stupid pills on on his website to make money. That there's no evidence that any of those pills actually help you. If you had Covid, I, I would 911 a little bit more because I know he's talked about 911 a lot.

[Jay Dyer]

What about 911?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, he thinks it was an inside job.

[Jay Dyer]

Right, right. I do too.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well we can get into that. We can get into that.

[Jay Dyer]

So what's the crazy part though? Where's the crazy?

[Brian Shapiro]

Talks about the deep state all the time with no evidence to back up his claims about the deep state. What is the deep state? Tell me.

[Jay Dyer]

It's the breakaway national security apparatus in the background that has a tremendous amount of influence installed at the time of World War II, particularly from right now. Council formulation. It's the same structure.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, right now who is running the deep state?

[Jay Dyer]

CFR and Trilateral Commission have a huge amount of influence. This is a CFR historian's own back background accounts or in Hershey's book. This is what we're lecturing through on my channel right now. So yeah, so that was. So I've heard Corporation, military industrial complex. That's the new state.

[Brian Shapiro]

So I've heard Alex say that Barack Obama was really running the country when Joe Biden was president. There's no evidence to back that up.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you meant the stay behind situation that Obama had set up in D.C.

[Brian Shapiro]

he said the Obamas had gay relationships and that Barack Obama was gay.

[Jay Dyer]

This is not a serious off radio make jokes you make. You do sat there outside there all the time.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well when I hear Alex Jones say that he believed, first of all I don't think that's funny. That's ten year old humor. I don't think there's anything funny in saying a president is gay. I don't think that. I mean unless we're 10 years old.

[Jay Dyer]

What about faking gay? You think?

[Brian Shapiro]

I mean, okay, but you, but you get what I'm saying, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Well you just laugh. So you do think it's funny.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, here's the problem, right? Alex Jones has a huge platform and I think it's important for People to choose their words wisely and to be responsible. We agree. I think that Alex Jones should not have done what he did when it came to the Sandy Hook shooting. It hurt people. Now, if you make a joke that doesn't hurt somebody, okay, fine. If you have a conspiracy theory that doesn't necessarily hurt somebody, then that's one thing, right? But when you have the platform that Alex Jones has and you say things that are unproven, stuff that is just blatantly ridiculous, they said things about me that aren't true. I have a problem with that. And I don't think that network is a serious network. I don't think that is a serious news network. You give. It's one thing if you give Kanye West a platform. Heck, I would interview Kanye west and ask him about his anti Semitism. But Alex Jones, he was praising Adolf Hitler. And Alex Jones is sitting there with his thumb up his ass.

[Jay Dyer]

I watched that whole interview, specifically disagreed with him and said that he didn't believe Hitler was a good guy. And the very next day, Richard Grove and I hosted that next day, talked about that. We did not agree with Larry Perspective.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay? It's one thing to say you don't agree with it, and I'm glad you did that. But if someone sitting next to me is praising Adolf Hitler, I would call them for what they are. You are an anti Semite and you are a moron. If you, if you, if you praise a man who's responsible for murdering anybody, let alone millions of people, there's something wrong with you. And I would say that to Kanye. I wouldn't sit here and say, well, you know, Kanye, I really disagree with you on that. I saw that. I don't respect people who praise evil, murderous dictators. That's what Alex Jones did in that interview, okay? He coddled. Well, he praised. He praised Kanye west in some ways. And he coddled him. He coddled him. It was a fluffer interview. And I think we also have a responsibility to, to question people and to be tough on people that praise murderous dictators. Alex Jones did not do that. So on one side of the coin, Kanye west will sit there and praise Adolf Hitler and he'll say, well, I disagree with that. But on the other side of the coin, he'll just bash Democrats and left wingers and AOC and attacker for being a bartender. He's more tough on somebody like AOC than somebody like Kanye west who praises Adolf Hitler and is a Jew hater. Make no mistake about it, Kanye is a Jew hater. Hater anti Semitic piece of scum. I don't care whether he's mentally ill or not. And these gripers that go around, I just think they're really bad people.

[Jay Dyer]

Right, but. So a lot of this debate so far has been about the character of people. So. And I'm not.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you're friends.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not believing that. Okay. But I mean, you just said at the beginning that you weren't interested in Gilby association, but seems to be your whole course.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm trying to understand why you would be friends with somebody like that who I think has no moral.

[Jay Dyer]

So. But what I'm illustrating is that nobody consistently can apply that in media because I'm sure you have friends that you disagree with that you might find reprehensible or that you've gone on shows that you just.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't have.

[Jay Dyer]

So you don't have any. I don't have any friends with Piers Morgan. You go on Piers Morgan show.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I don't hang out with Pierce Morgan. He's not one of my friends. I do his show. There's a difference.

[Jay Dyer]

So I don't have. Now it's. So it's. I don't have guilt by. So it is guilt by association.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you're friends with him. So I'm not friends with him.

[Jay Dyer]

That is guilt by association, which you said you're not trying to do.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm trying to understand why you would be.

[Jay Dyer]

So you are doing guilt by association.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm asking you. I'm asking a question, implying that it's.

[Jay Dyer]

Implying that it's morally wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

How morally right. You could associate yourself.

[Jay Dyer]

And I'm trying to understand that as

[Brian Shapiro]

a friend, not just for doing a

[Jay Dyer]

show, the morals are. Which are what? Like, what's the. Because I don't think it's consistently applied.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think people that associate themselves with people like Alice Jones are the same people that associate themselves with Donald Trump. I think it's my association. I think it's same.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, this whole course has been guilt by association. What you said at the beginning, you're not going to do.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, what I was hoping to do is try to get a. An explanation from you on how you could be friends with somebody like that. I find that in general and I'm going to make a general statement now. People that are big fans of Alex Jones or friends of Alex Jones tend to also be big fans of Donald Trump and they throw. They're willing to push aside the Epstein stuff. They're willing to push aside his behaviors, the way he talks about Women and gold star families and POWs, and the fact that he's named thousands of times in the Epstein falls. I think the same kinds of people who support Donald Trump are gravitated towards Alex Jones. Yes. I'll say it again. I think Donald Trump and Alex Jones are similar. I think they're both horrible human beings. Yeah, they're horrible human beings who probably only care about themselves and, you know,

[Jay Dyer]

but again, I think this is what usually ends up being something not worth debating. I'm not saying you can't bring it up. You debate whatever you want, but the idea of only focusing on the morals of some individual in media or in politics, to me just seems absurd. That's why I'm always an issues guy, because I'm sure that we can talk about issues. I'm sure that everybody has some moral flaw or some problem in their. Their ethos.

[Brian Shapiro]

I would never deny that. I would never deny what you're saying.

[Jay Dyer]

So then. So then it's not consistently applied. So it would seem there are different

[Brian Shapiro]

levels of similar mistakes.

[Jay Dyer]

How do we know the levels here? Because it seems like you're doing the very thing that you're saying shouldn't be done.

[Brian Shapiro]

No. So there are different levels of mistakes that are made, whether you cheat on your wife or.

[Jay Dyer]

Who determines that?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, I'm just giving you my opinions. There's no book on determining. I'm just telling you, simply put, if you're a person who intentionally lies about a school shooting, when children are murdered to make money in clicks, you're a disgusting human being.

[Jay Dyer]

But how do you know a person's motives? Maybe you do, because Alex Jones does

[Brian Shapiro]

it all the time. He says things.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know the motives?

[Brian Shapiro]

He's over the top and he says things.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know the motives?

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think Alex Jones didn't have. What do you think his motive is when he says things?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm saying that when you debate. And again, you can debate whatever you want. But my critique, speak of this type of debate, is that when you debate people's motives, it's something that you can never really explicitly prove.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why does that. Why did you think Alex Jones. Give me an educated guess, Jay, if you can. Why do you think Alex Jones said those things?

[Jay Dyer]

I believe that Alex has always, for the most part, been sincere. That's why he has been willing to change his mind and admit he was wrong. For example, he recently admitted he was wrong, that he thought Trump might reverse the course on Iran.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let's talk about.

[Jay Dyer]

He admits that he was completely Wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

I do want to talk to you about that. Well, I'm just probably going to agree on that.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a recent admission that Alex said I wrong about this.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, good. So, so let me ask you something about that, because I disagree with you, respectfully. If Alex Jones wasn't sued, I think Alex Jones would have apologized.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the, again, the lawsuit, as I said, highlighted the bad vetting. If you look, for example, at the prosecutor where they were.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, Jay, I understand.

[Jay Dyer]

Let me finish the question, Let me finish answering the, the. When they were interrogating Owen Schwer and Owen was responsible for bringing on a couple people that, not just Wolfgang, but also the Zero Hedge article that they highlighted, that was misinformation. So that was not properly vetted. And I'm saying that if you've got a network that has multiple people doing multiple cogs of the operation, you can't, I understand that the head of the operation is going to receive the brunt of the criticism, but it's not like Alex was just doing all of this without sincere investigation. I believe he's sincere.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so I, I, that's where we disagree. And I would go as far as to say this. I believe that if Alex Jones wasn't sued and he didn't have to face consequences for his first things, he would never have apologized or retracted anything, because he never has in the past, to my knowledge, for anything else. The reason why he apologized and says I shouldn't have said that, which, by the way, he said in a courtroom and then he said it was a kangaroo court and he attacked the judge and he attacked the prosecutors. Instead of just being a man and saying, you know what? I really upset, I really shouldn't have said that stuff. What happened to those families was awful. Instead, he does what Donald Trump does. It's a kangaroo court. I didn't do anything wrong. So, no, I disagree with you, Jay. I don't think Alex Jones would have ever retracted what he said. And I don't think Alex Jones would have ever apologized if, in fact he was never facing a civil lawsuit, which he lost. That's my personal opinion.

[Jay Dyer]

We can move on to Iran because there's no way to prove we can do that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, that's just my personal opinion. Obviously, there's no way to 100 prove it other than the fact that to my knowledge, I don't think Alex has ever apologized for anything else on the air in the past. The only thing I could ever recall that he's ever apologized for or, or retracted was the, the Comments he made about the school shooting and those kids

[Jay Dyer]

being recently retracted, his position on Iran. He thought Trump would have a better course and of course correction. And he was wrong about that. He was wrong about the thing that was going around where Pam Bondi was saying that they were going to release the files. He thought that that was a legitimate.

[Brian Shapiro]

He's been open about criticism for the Epstein files because he's been talking about the Epste for years. And I think Donald Trump has made a lot of people like the Alex Jones type look really bad because Donald Trump has protected pedophiles, in my opinion.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, Alex has called that out.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know that. That's what I just said. Yeah, I'm happy. I agree with you on that.

[Jay Dyer]

Would refute your claim.

[Brian Shapiro]

He's angry. Well, he's. He's upset at Donald Trump. It's not really that he was wrong about something. He.

[Jay Dyer]

He's upset about what Pam Bondi said like two months ago. So.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, yeah, he's criticized at times the Trump administration.

[Jay Dyer]

He doesn't give the apology that you want. Want, basically.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's not really the apology that I want. It's. It's basically. It wasn't really an apology. He just, basically, when it comes to the Epstein stuff, he's talked about how disappointed he was. He was wrong about Pam Bondi. He was wrong about Pam Bondi and he thought Pam Bondi.

[Jay Dyer]

No, he said specifically that the claim they were going to release more of the files, that when Pam Bondi claimed

[Brian Shapiro]

this, he shared that the sun shining, birds are singing, and all feels right in the world. Until the season changes and suddenly you lose your motivation to get out of bed. In fact, one in five people experience some form of depression, no matter the season or time of year. At the American Psychiatric association foundation, our vision is to build a mentally healthy nation for all, because we want you to live your best life and be your best you all year round. Please visit mentallyhealthynation.org to learn more.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify in about a dozen apps, your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Jay Dyer]

And then a bunch of people on social media called him out. He said, you know what, you're right, I was wrong. So he said he will admit.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, I'm glad he did that. I was unaware of that and I'm glad he did that. And we could, we could end the Alex Jones conversation. But, but in closing, I'll just say this. And, and you know, it's not nothing that I've never.

[Jay Dyer]

Closing statement. Yeah, that's fair.

[Brian Shapiro]

Of course. I think Alex Jones is what's horrible with society. I think there are grifters, the Candace Owens types. I put Alex Jones in that category. I think he only says things as an act to get clicks and to make money. What he did was disgusting. And then why. The reason why this topic is so, it should be personal to anybody. But it's even more personally because I grew up about 20 minutes away from Sandy Hook, number one. Number two, I've interviewed some of those families who have to wake up every day without seeing their kids. It's reprehensible. And the fact that somebody like Alex Jones and this is irrefutable made their grief even worse. With what Alex Jones put those families through is reprehensible. And I think only a reprehensible and repugnant human being would do what Alex Jones did. I have zero respect for him. I don't care how many followers he has. I have no more respect for him than I do like a Candace Owens type. And I know we'll probably agree on Candace Owens. There is a way to have differences of opinions and there is a way to have a conversation without hurting people. And there are too many people, particularly in right wing media today that do that. They make claims that hurt people. They lie. They attack undocumented immigrants and brown people every single day, making it seem like all these undocumented immigrants are going to rape your kids. They're wrong. They lied about the terrorist attack in New Orleans. They said it was undocumented immigrant. They said it was because of Joe Biden's open border policies. They lie. They lied in conspiracy theories about what happened to Paul Pelosi when Paul Pelosi was attacked with a hammer. And Alex Jones was one of those guys that spread the conspiracy theory that Paul Pelosi had some sort of gay relationship with the guy that almost killed him with a hammer. Did Alex Jones ever apologize for that? When the police report came out and Matt Gaetz when he was in office and other repugnant piece of garbage and Ted Cruz spread those conspiracy theories. These right wingers don't apologize. Usually I'm glad that Alex Jones has done that, but there's a lot of people on the right that don't. They don't retract, they don't apologize. When you get something wrong, why don't you wait until the information comes out first before you, you spread conspiracy theories. I'm not talking about you, I'm just saying in general terms. People on the right, and that's my, one of my biggest criticisms with the lore loomers of the world and so many others. It's all about clicks, Jay. It's about money and clicks. They don't care whether they get it right or not. They, I'm generalizing. There's a lot of people on Right on X, they want to be the first one to say it was an undocumented immigrant, it was a black person, it was this without knowing. And then when they get it wrong, they don't retract and they don't apologize. And I'm sorry if I'm going on a rant here, but on X, when you look at, when they're fact checked, what is that called on the bottom? Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Community note. Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

What is the point of a community note if somebody is getting a community note like 200 times? There are right wingers out there that have been community noted 200 times. They're not suspended, their accounts don't get taken down. Why are we community noting people when they literally. It happens to them every day. So anyway, I digress. Go ahead.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Again, I think, you know, so much of media ends up being a lot of low tier slop and debating about things that are not really that substantial, such as people's motives or intentionality, which is unless you have, you know, somebody's actual DMS or something like that, it's really difficult, I think, to, to know the motives. And so in philosophy and debate we don't typically focus on that. Understand that in media and in news it probably is the best. But I would assume that maybe you engage in debating about who's good and who's bad because that's the easy low tier route to go to get attention and to get clicks. I mean, aren't you interested?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it's low tier, but

[Jay Dyer]

it is to debate people's motives, because it's called ad hominem.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it's low tier to talk about our president and his behavior.

[Jay Dyer]

We're talking about Alex Jones.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right, Right.

[Jay Dyer]

You're saying his bad motives. And I'm saying that, that, that works in low tier political debate. But like, if you get into a philosophical debate and you debate people's motives, that's called ad hominem. Because unless you have proof that there's some motives, you don't know people's motives other than to say that, well, he's a bad person. Okay, so he's a bad person. What does that prove?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it's low tier to criticize Alex Jones for what he did.

[Jay Dyer]

But you said that you know his motives, and I'm just trying to figure out how you know that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, first of all, I think most people would say the reason why Alex Jones says these things is because he wants to.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that would be money.

[Brian Shapiro]

And get more attention.

[Jay Dyer]

The fact that most people think that really has nothing to do.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, that's. I would like to think that a logical opinion would be that the reason

[Jay Dyer]

why you can't do fallacies.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, if you think that Alex Jones does this stuff, I mean, do

[Jay Dyer]

you think appeal to masses is a fallacy?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, but I would say.

[Jay Dyer]

I would say you don't think it's a fallacy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Perhaps. But the point that I was trying to get at is that just. Just Alex Jones says these things not because he needs to get this off his chest or he wants to be an agent.

[Jay Dyer]

So I. You're just saying what his motives are.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well. Well, what do you think his motives are then? Again, help me understand Alex Jones. You're friends with him.

[Jay Dyer]

I've listened to Alex since 2003. Yeah. And I've noticed him consistently over the. The years, reference many texts that we lecture through on my channel. So it's become a mainstay of what I do is to kind of take all those books that he references over the years to check to see if he's legit and if he's saying the right things. And most of what he says, I would say 90 of what Alex has said over the years has been accurate in terms of the big geopolitical perspective. There are minutiae areas where I would disagree, particularly with who. Who he brought on during that time period of Sandy Hook that was not properly vetted. But when it comes to the big geopolitical stuff, most of the time I disagree. But there's been areas where I disagree with Alex over Trump, so I don't have a problem disagreeing with Alex, but I don't think that Alex is ultimately overall a bad person. I've met him, known him, you know, personally for many years, so.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. I mean, I based that on some other things that I'm not gonna talk about here on the show, but people that have known him very close. Closer than you, even. But we can leave it at that. I know this entire debate isn't. Isn't.

[Sean]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let's move on. But if you want to talk about Iran, I'm happy.

[Jay Dyer]

Let's dive into Iran.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Even though you both agree maybe there's some slight.

[Brian Shapiro]

I won't be taking Alex Jones out to dinner tonight. I guess that's what I was trying to say. Go ahead, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

You want to start off with Iran and how you feel about the US Getting involved, How you feel like Trump's done with that relationship. Yeah. So this is an issue that I've dealt with for many years. I've had a lot of debates publicly with Muslims for about eight years straight. Some of the. We've debated most of the top Muslims, I think, maybe junior future Muslim debate

[Brian Shapiro]

that we're going to do.

[Jay Dyer]

So I'm very familiar with, like, the background of, you know, Sunni versus Shia Islam. I'm decently educated on the history of Iran. And I think the big issue with Iran is that this is really just a repeat of 1953 with the CIAQ, where they took out, you know, Mosaddeg to put the Shaw in. Then you had the Shah failing, and you had Ayatollah Kashani being brought in with British intelligence and CIA assistance, all ultimately for Anglo Iranian Oil Company, which would become bp. So I think that from the very beginning, this was a destabilization, a regime change that was brought about for the purpose of big corporate interest in Iran. I think it's really not that different today. If we fast forward to where we are now, it's a lot of repeat of what we saw with Iraq, which was, you know, false intel, weapons of mass destruction, which are not true. Saddam was brought into power by the CIA, trained by the CIA. He's given weapons of mass destruction originally by the CIA to fight the Iran Iraq war. And then when we decided that he had spoiled, like spoiled milk, then we didn't need a Saddam anymore. I've never been pro war all the way back to 911 I've been anti war pretty much because I think most of the wars are fought for interest, not in the best purview of the American people. Their fault for corporate and banking interest for the most part. I'm not a pacifist. I believe in self defense. But so the same situation with Iran, I think that we've seen the administration all the way back to Obama with the green revolution. They were pushing for a kind of a more democratic Ned style color revolution back in 2009, 10 11. But now what? We have a situation where Trump has just green lit under I think probably influence from Bibi Netanyahu to go for a full on just, you know, taking them out and go back 30 years. They were playing the clips yesterday on Hodge Twins where BB is like saying they're two weeks away from a nuclear bomb and then like every few years it's the same two weeks and it's like yeah, so it's like two weeks to flatten the Iran was my joke on Twitter. Not making jokes about yeah, but I mean the same situation where oh it's two weeks flatten the curb and then it's going to turn into protracted war. This is different than Syria. Syria, it took 15 years to take down Assad, to install by CIA and Western support a very radical Sunni regime under Jelani. That's something that was mentioned in the Clean Break memo. It's something that goes back to Oded Yunan strategy. So I think that all of those are a disaster for the west and for America. They basically only benefit the Greater Israel Project. And I disagree with all that.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

It pains me to say I agree with a lot of what you just said, not much of a debate there. But I will say this. When Donald Trump was running for office again, said he was going to be the peace president. The peace candidate. Yeah, exactly.

[Sean]

You'll never have war again.

[Brian Shapiro]

Nothing to worry about. Yeah, probably the best. That's true. He said that. That and he said there were, you know, he's going to be a known regime, new regime president and all that. Tulsi Gabbard testified 10 months ago under oath that there was no reason to believe, based on our own intelligence, that they were furthering their nuclear capabilities. We were told eight months ago, obliviated, I believe, is the Obliterated. I'm sorry, Obliterated. I always get that mixed up. Obliterated their nuclear capabilities. Then we heard it was regime change. And then when they figured it out, well, wait, we're going to have to have boots on the ground if there's regime change. Then they said, well, these civilians need to rise up. Yeah, the hell does that mean? Then Marco Rubio, in some terminology, was blaming Israel. And I agree, by the way, with a lot of the stuff you said about Benjamin. I am, listen, I'm a Jewish guy. It's not anti Semitic to, to be critical of the Israeli government. I've maintained that position. I am very anti Israeli government. I am very pro Israeli people. I think they're great people, but I'm an anti Benjamin Netanyahu who plays Donald Trump like a fiddle. Then we were told by Marco Rubio that Israel, you know, forced our hand. Then we have this school bombing and Donald Trump. It was a Tomahawk missile. Iran doesn't have Tomahawk missiles. Everybody knows that. And he blames Iran. Does he even know that they don't have Tomahawk missiles? It's, it's, this guy is such a madman and he's such an imbecile. And Pete Hegseth is. They don't take responsibility. We're told this is the party of protecting children. And now we're told, well, this was about the Marines and this was about attacking the ships. I agree with what you said about Iraq. That was an ill advised war. Thousands of American soldiers died, Hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis died. Trillions of dollars that were still paying off. How is this any different? Are you disappointed you voted for Trump? I know you're not defending this war, which I appreciate. Are you disappointed in your vote? Kamala Harris would not have started. You could have your criticisms of Kamala and that's fine and we can get into that. I'm not saying she was perfect. She would not have started a war in Iran. I do not believe this war would have happened.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you know, it's similar to, you know, a lot of what Obama campaigned upon. We saw Obama campaigning as a peace candidate back in the day. We saw him then reversing with the drone strikes that he was involved in. So I, I didn't have high hopes for politics to be anything other than what, than what it usually is. I was involved in, you know, promoting Ron Paul back in 2007 and 8. Rand Paul campaign and, and I saw back then the way that Ron Paul was sort of sidelined and kind of kept out of the political discourse. And so my vote for Trump was mainly based on a lot of the policies that he supported, which are kind of older, 90s centrist, Democrat type.

[Brian Shapiro]

America first, though, right, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

You think it's some of, some of these policies are America First?

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm saying what he campaigned on.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. And I'm saying he campaigns on a lot of things that he lies about. We're going to build a wall in, Mexico's going to pay for.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm saying that I disagree with the main areas. My main issues are that I can think of with Trump. I think warp she was a huge failure. I think that was a mistake. I think he did that probably at the behest of a lot of pharmaceutical and corporate interests. That's my opinion on that. I think that it was a mistake to, to talk a lot about the Federal Reserve, but not really to go after the Federal Reserve. I think that's a huge problem for the country for the economics and then also to promote the war for Israel's benefit. Really, That's, I mean, those are the main things off the top of my head that I can think of.

[Brian Shapiro]

Those are big things.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, those are my main, those are my main pretty important things.

[Brian Shapiro]

Don't you?

[Jay Dyer]

Again, I'm not a Trump apologist, but I, I'm an issues person. What I'm saying is that since 2007, I was really disaffected with mainline party politics.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about rolling out the red carpet for Vladimir Putin in Alaska? What about no concessions? What about the fact that, that Russia is giving intel to Iran right now and Trump, they just don't seem to want to talk about that. They've had pleasant conversations in the last week. Rolling out the red carp. He blamed Vladimir Zielinski, called him a dictator, and he blamed Ukraine for the war. Let me tell you something. If Iran had invaded Israel, I might Feel a little differently about this war.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, here's where we disagree, right? No, I would be anti Ukraine for sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

Who started the war in Ukraine?

[Jay Dyer]

NATO.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's not true.

[Jay Dyer]

It is true, Vladimir. Who invaded back to 2012, NATO was provoking Russia and they did not keep to the agreements during the Cold War about not expanding. Who invaded Ukraine again? Who started the violence, provoked Russia to invade?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I didn't ask you who provoked who.

[Jay Dyer]

Who invited matters.

[Brian Shapiro]

Who invaded Ukraine?

[Jay Dyer]

Russia?

[Brian Shapiro]

Provoked.

[Jay Dyer]

Was provoked.

[Brian Shapiro]

Who started the violence?

[Jay Dyer]

Who put the. The. I could provoke the biolabs.

[Brian Shapiro]

I could provoke somebody to put the biolabs. Okay, but hold on. I could provoke somebody to geop.

[Jay Dyer]

Takes is false analogy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I can provoke somebody to murder somebody. But I'm not asking you who provoked. I'm asking you who committed the crime,

[Jay Dyer]

put the biolabs all around Russia as a offensive provocation.

[Brian Shapiro]

Nobody forced Vladimir Putin. It is to invade Ukraine.

[Jay Dyer]

It is a forcing.

[Brian Shapiro]

I disagree with you.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, again, that Ukraine is actually historically Russia anyway, and it was only Ukraine after Lenin and after World War I. Okay, so, Jay, so it's not even a real country.

[Brian Shapiro]

Ukraine didn't start this war.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a country that was created by the west and by communists to sever that center of power.

[Brian Shapiro]

I understand, I understand. History. I understand. But Ukraine did not start the war. They did not start.

[Jay Dyer]

Disagree. Okay, well, I think that NATO and the west provoked the war so that then they could.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think Zelensky is a dictator in many ways.

[Jay Dyer]

He acts like a dictator with pers. So Zelensky's Orthodox church and shuts it down.

[Brian Shapiro]

So Zelensky started the war and he's a dictator. You agree with Donald Trump start the. The war? Well, Donald Trump said that. Was he lying?

[Jay Dyer]

He may be speaking about.

[Brian Shapiro]

For.

[Jay Dyer]

For political reasons. He didn't start the war. I think NATO started the war.

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, don't you think it's kind of important if you're the President of the United States to not lie?

[Jay Dyer]

Problem? Criticizing Trump. But I will defend the fact that I don't think that Russia started. Okay, well, NATO provoked the war.

[Brian Shapiro]

I can tell you this.

[Jay Dyer]

Has NATO expanded since the Cold War?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I. No, but I can tell you that. Well, hold on a second. Let me just go back.

[Jay Dyer]

They've been putting bases and biolabs that. That came out that the Pentagon admitted.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes, there's biolabs in Ukraine, but that still doesn't defend. It's not a defense for Vlad invading Ukraine. It's a provocation. Okay, so do you think if, let's

[Jay Dyer]

say, people, if they started coming into your property and they were saying, oh, well, you don't have a right to, you know, react because, you know, we're not actually causing you to react. We're just coming on your property.

[Brian Shapiro]

So do you think it's appropriate for an evil, murderous dictator, which is who Vladimir Putin is? I would hope that we could, at least, even though we disagree on this, you would agree with me that Vladimir Putin doesn't have a regard for human life. He kills journalists in his own country that disagree with him. If you talk, talk about Vladimir Putin on the phone, there have been instances where you're massacred. He kills. He's an evil dictator. Can we at least agree on that?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I don't. I mean, all heads of state operate in a similar way. The US Assassinates people all the time. So can you tell me where the U.S. oh, yeah. All the time. I'm unfamiliar with famous journalist who was assassinated in Germany. We're talking about the CIA infiltrating and using German media for Western purposes. And so whether or not Putin himself had the journalists assassinated, I don't know. But I wouldn't be surprised because a lot of journalists are actually also undercover as spies.

[Brian Shapiro]

If anybody listened to my show for 30 seconds, if I was talking about Vladimir Putin that way in Russia, I would be murdered in the United States of America. Even though Donald Trump is trying to take away our First Amendment rights to criticize him, he does it all the time. He calls people like me vermin and the enemy within. We still have the right in this country to our First Amendment to. You criticize politicians and the president in Russia, you will be murdered if you do that. That's what makes him a dictator. That's part of what makes him a dictator. And the point I was trying to make was, was that Donald Trump has, and I'm not saying you're a Trump apologist, but Donald Trump has rolled out the red carpet for an evil dictator on American soil to this day. No Russian sanctions. In fact, they've blamed Ukraine. Now, I know we, I guess we disagree on what's going on in Ukraine, but Donald Trump's foreign policy is a joke. The world is laughing at us right now when it comes to tariffs, the $175 billion that he stole from the American people, and now we were told we were going to get tariff checks, and now it's turned into, well, you can sue us if you'd like to. I can go policy by policy with you, ice. I agree that, because I'm sure this is a topic that you talk about a lot, which is immigration. I am proud. Border security. I want people to come to this country legally. However, I don't want people that have been in this country for decades that pay taxes, that have families here sent to an El Salvador prison. That's happened. Not everybody was non violent, but the majority of those people, I think it was over 60% of the people that they sent to an El Salvador prison were non violent criminals. I don't want people murdered in the streets. What happened in Minneapolis is a travesty. What happened to Renee Good and Alex Preddy is repugnant. It's terrible. And then you had Christy Noem, who is no longer there now, who called them domestic terrorists hours after these shootings without a full investigation. And. And by the way, the evidence proves it. That's why they took that Bovino out of Minneapolis and they, you know, took out two or three thousand troops. Listen, violent criminals. 90% of the country, Democrats and Republicans, agree. If you're a violent criminal and you're undocumented, deported, absolutely. I'm on board with that. But I have a serious problem with a party that says, come on into our country, just do it the right way, do it legally. We don't care what the color of your skin is. Which is the party that has made it more difficult for people to become legal citizens. In some cases, it takes 10 or 15 years for people to be naturalized. The Democrat Party has tried to come up with a way to make it easier for people to get a pathway to citizenship. And meanwhile, Republicans make it more difficult. Let's make it easier for people. I want them to be vetted, but let's make it a little bit easier for people to become citizens, and let's give them some more incentives. And if you happen to be undocumented and you're nonviolent criminal, which I think is important, then you have to pay a penalty. But let's come up with something that works for the American people. I don't think separating families and murdering people on the streets is good policy, and that's what the Trump administration has done.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker. The platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast Brain. Brain symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes The whole process, simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Jay Dyer]

I would actually just say we don't need immigration really at all. I think we have enough human resource and capital here in the west in America that we don't actually need, need the replacement of the indigenous people. And that's kind of a war crime in my view. This is a known strategy. You can read Kelly Greenhill's book. She's like, she writes for Cornell University. I think Weapons of Mass Migration. So this is a known geopolitical strategy technique to, to change the, the people groups. Specifically with Europe. You have the Kalergi plan. I read Kudnov Kaler, it's real. His book Practical Idealism discusses this explicitly, that that plan was adopted by the Royal Society to change the demographics of the European Union. And then we have the same situation like in America where you have the flooding of the country with all kinds of third world people to change the demographics, not just for political reasons, but I think ultimately for long term socialist, international reasons.

[Brian Shapiro]

So we can give a history lesson on immigration and, and we can talk about the past, but what I'm talking about right now is the future and where this country is at right now. Will you agree with me that the shootings of Renee Good and Alex Preddy were horrible? They weren't handled properly. And we had a woman in Chicago who was shot five times, almost died. And everybody in ice, including Donald Trump, Christy Noem, Stephen Miller, everybody, based on text messages, were praising this guy for shooting this woman five times. They claimed that Ms. Martinez was trying to impeding an investigation. And then all of a sudden when the body camera camera footage came out, it said the total opposite and they retracted the charges. Did anybody apologize? No. Are those officers still out there? Yes. That's wrong. Can we agree that? That's right.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, and I don't doubt that in some of these situations you have absolutely horrible mistakes like that. I would probably agree with that, but. And I don't know the specifics of those cases because I'm more focused on the bigger geopolitics. But you're saying, oh, we don't need to. We don't need a history lesson. I actually do need a history lesson. Because if what I'm talking about is true, then there's a longer, broader strategy.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you don't want immigrants in here at all?

[Jay Dyer]

There's a long. We don't need any more. No.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you want to just close the borders for everybody?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Well, obviously I disagree with you on that.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but that's fine. But the. The reason that I'm saying that is because there is a real long term socialist strategy to change the demographics of the entire west, and these documents point to that. This goes all the way.

[Brian Shapiro]

What does it matter to you where. Where someone comes from?

[Jay Dyer]

What does it matter if people's heritage and tradition makes sense? All the people who come here.

[Brian Shapiro]

How does that affect.

[Jay Dyer]

All the people that come here certainly believe that. So what is it.

[Brian Shapiro]

What does it matter where somebody was from so long as.

[Jay Dyer]

Or the color, for example, if they have Sunni Islamic beliefs, it matters quite a bit.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but if they're not breaking the law and they're decent people and they're family people, why does.

[Jay Dyer]

It's way more complex than that. Because, for example, in Islam, they have the idea and the belief that. That you pretend to be amenable and affable to the society that you're going into, and then over time, when you gain power, then you overthrow them. That's in the Quran. Okay, well, so that's one example.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you have friends that are Islam

[Jay Dyer]

descent that are Muslim?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. You have any friends?

[Jay Dyer]

Do I have any friends?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. No, Brian, no, that's not what I. I know you have.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I didn't mean interacted with all of the topics, but do you.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you. Interaction is one thing, but, like, do you. Do you spend time with people of Muslim. Okay, so I have. And I didn't. I didn't say you didn't have friends. I was. That. I misspoke. That's fine. But I can tell you that I know a lot of people that are Muslim that live in this country, maybe a couple dozen. And they're good people. They're nice people. They're family people. Not every Muslim wants harm on America. Not every Muslim is a terrorist, but there are people on the right that do. Laura Loomer thinks that all Muslims should be deported. She is despicable. She is a racist. Now, I disagree with you on the fact that you don't want any immigrants in this country at all. But I will say this. Every single time Donald Trump says, make America great again. It always meant to me, make America white again. That's what I believe many in his base believe.

[Jay Dyer]

Wouldn't that be racist?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes. Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

But you're saying racism is wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

Absolutely, it's wrong. And I'm saying his slogan, and a lot of people that abide by his slogan want America to be white. And, And I, And I. I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

But you just said, what's wrong with the people coming here having.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't see anything wrong with people from.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, what's wrong with them having their heritage in their tradition?

[Brian Shapiro]

Right. Well, it depends specifically what you're talking about, but if they're not breaking the law, then let them believe in what they.

[Jay Dyer]

What's wrong with people who are white having their hair, churches and their tradition if they're not breaking the law?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I don't have a problem with that either. But what you're saying to me is you don't want any immigrants in this country.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

But I mean, I think that's wrong. Does Japan have to take in Third world people?

[Brian Shapiro]

First of all, what makes.

[Jay Dyer]

Do they have to.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's. That's a different country. I'm talking about the United States. What makes America?

[Jay Dyer]

Is this a universal principle?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I believe the United States.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's not universal.

[Brian Shapiro]

The United States of America was particular just to America. We live in the United States. So I'm going to speak on what I want here in the country.

[Jay Dyer]

So it only applies to people in America. It doesn't apply to other countries.

[Brian Shapiro]

Centuries.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's relative.

[Brian Shapiro]

In a perfect world, it's arbitrary. In a perfect.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it arbitrary?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm answering you. In a perfect world, I would love the entire world to operate in a state of live where you want to live, have the religion that you want, and I don't want people to be judged based on religion or signals.

[Jay Dyer]

So Japan should take third world. In a perfect world, should they?

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast break brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it in a.

[Brian Shapiro]

In a perfect world. I wouldn't want every.

[Jay Dyer]

You want to talk about this world, so should they in this world. Yeah, I think everybody, every country should take in immigrants. I think at untold amounts. Infinity.

[Brian Shapiro]

As long as you're vetted properly.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, mistaken. Infinity.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I mean, I mean, listen, I come from a different cloth, I guess, and in my personal opinion, I don't care what you look like. I don't care what the color of

[Jay Dyer]

your skin is unless you're white, I don't care.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you're not letting me finish. No, it has nothing to do with that.

[Jay Dyer]

I want to double standard.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's not a double standard. You're not hearing me out.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't care where you're from. You could be white, you could be black. I don't care. You could be as 100 white like me. I want everyone to have the same opportunity communities. As long as you're vetted properly. Yes, I do want border security. I want people to be vetted. But the difference, the fundamental difference here is I don't care where you're from, as long as you don't have bad intentions.

[Jay Dyer]

That's great that you don't care about that. But that wasn't the question. The question was about the ethics of an entire country taking in massive amounts of other third world migrants. That was the question.

[Brian Shapiro]

First of all, it. It's dependent upon are they coming in the right way. It's dependent upon are they properly vetted. It's dependent upon where are they going to go. Are they going to be able to provide something to the United States, tools and. And skills that they have that's part of the vetting process. So as long as you're doing that properly and we don't have bad people, which I don't want. I don't want bad people coming here. I don't want people that want to do harm to America. I don't want rapists or child molesters or quite frankly, people that you support, like Donald Trump. I don't want people like that in this country. And if they're properly. I'm being serious, though. I know it's funny, but I'm being serious. I don't want people like Donald Trump here. Orange people like Donald trump who are 34 count felon liable sexual abusers. People that you support like Donald Trump who's named thousands of times in the Epstein files. You know, I mean I don't want people like that in this country. I don't care what the color of their skin is like you. I don't care whether what country they're from. I don't want people in this country like Donald Trump. And I can give you multiple reasons why. You voted for a 34 count vellum. You voted for a liable sexual abuser. Why are you so worried about people from other countries coming here when the guy who you support, the President of

[Jay Dyer]

the United States is like a fallacy machine?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's not a fallacy machine, it's logic.

[Jay Dyer]

Well you don't actually know what policies are because you demonstrated that earlier.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

You didn't know what appeal to masses was.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know, I know what someone who is a threat to this country looks like and I know what someone who is not an immigrant.

[Jay Dyer]

You think that massive amounts of people should be able to come into the country. So I don't think you actually have a good assessment of what threats are.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think you have a good.

[Jay Dyer]

Your situation would allow for the complete disintegration.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think you have a good assessment of what's good for this country and what's not. You want, you, you want our board.

[Jay Dyer]

Your assessment was based on just purely subjective what you want, you want our

[Brian Shapiro]

borders to be closed. You don't want anything that would be

[Jay Dyer]

good for the country. Okay, so countries that have voting for

[Brian Shapiro]

Donald Trump but voting is good for the country.

[Jay Dyer]

That's good for the country Given what

[Brian Shapiro]

he can starting ill advice.

[Jay Dyer]

Given what he campaigned on. Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. So yeah, but he's not doing that. He's. Who cares what this guy relevant to

[Jay Dyer]

what you calling me out for debate for voting for what he campaigned.

[Brian Shapiro]

You want good people.

[Jay Dyer]

You're trying to associate me with a bad guy again, which is.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well yeah, because you support him and you voted for him.

[Jay Dyer]

You have no problem supporting with his policies policies already.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about his behavior? You want good people in this country.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't want migrants, politicians have crazy behavior.

[Brian Shapiro]

Give me another politician that's ever been the president. That's a 34 count felon. That's a liable sexual abuser. Please give me one example, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I don't know what the number because.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because you couldn't find that. Because you couldn't find that. I don't defend Bill Clinton. You can Try the what about.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I'm not doing what about. You asked me how would that be a what about? To answer your question question, it was

[Brian Shapiro]

Bill Clinton a 34 count film?

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't say he was. I said there is probably nobody with 34 counts or whatever.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, you voted for that guy.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you asked me an absurd question to give a specific person who had 34 felons, which obviously there's not a person.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, with respect, I think it's absurd.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

When you say you want our borders closed and you don't want, but you can't coming here. Why? Because.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, when I asked you for the other countries we were founded, I'm telling

[Brian Shapiro]

you we were founded by immigrants but not loved about this.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're gonna go back to the founding. Does the founding allow for open borders?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I'm giving you my full explanation. We were. My. My personal opinion is that I want.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's relative.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's the land of opportunity. And I believe that if you're vetted and you're, you know, you're not a criminal, we should give everybody the opportunity to succeed in this country. You go through the process of becoming a legal citizen. There are a ton of immigrants that are. Have come to this country that have done so many great things for this.

[Jay Dyer]

But that has nothing to do with what I was arguing.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I mean, you just want the borders to be completely closed, which I think is absurd. Okay, okay. I'm sorry, I just.

[Jay Dyer]

But the countries that do that seem to do.

[Brian Shapiro]

I just disagree with you. I just. I just think that. And again, you might not like the comparison I'm making here, but I think it's important. You seem to have a concern. And you think it's bad for the country to have immigrants coming here.

[Jay Dyer]

No, infinity immigrants.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Well, again. And you know, I think maybe there needs to be something put in place. But. But you've made the case that you don't want immigrants here at all. You want to close the borders completely. Right.

[Jay Dyer]

It's not needed.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, well, I mean, there's a lot of things that you might think is not needed, but how does that affect you negatively if immigrants are coming?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not arguing for what effects mean, personally. I'm just part. How is it bad for America country in general, and countries that have homogeneous populations, that keep to their traditions and their heritage, seem to flourish and function better than those that are democratic, graphically changed. Hence why I was referring back to the older strategies of the War College and others that have written about how to do demographic replacement, which is a form of warfare.

[Brian Shapiro]

You think immigrants, all undocumented immigrants that are in this country now should all be deported?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

So people that have lived in this country for decades, that have children here, how about anchor babies? Do you think they should be deported as well?

[Jay Dyer]

I would, I would want the law to be changed on that, yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think that if you're a three or a four year old child that was born in this country, they should be, be deported?

[Jay Dyer]

Unfortunately, yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

You do? Okay, well, I think that's extremely harsh and I disagree with you. By the way, if you're seeking asylum from a country, you know, from Mexico, for example, and you're going about it the right way and you filled out the right paperwork, it is illegal for the Trump administration to deport you. Do you understand that? They're doing that right now. It is against the law and they are, they're going against what our constitution says. It's happening right now as we speak. You have ICE agents outside of courtrooms when they have filled out the proper paperwork.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, I mean, I think these, you're focusing on minutia of bad situations that happen to individuals in masses of tens of millions of people when the overall net negative for the country is more important than the minutia. And, you know, one person is, is a, you know, news story, but the statistics of millions of people get forgotten. So it's more important for the long term benefit of the country in general than to highlight, as the left often does, I'm not saying you're leftist, but they highlight specific cases to do emotional appeals. And so like you've done in this debate, it's a lot of emotional appeals was also fallacy.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it's emotional to say that the president is ripping up parts of our Constitution and breaking the law.

[Jay Dyer]

Those are.

[Brian Shapiro]

Breaking the law is an emotion.

[Jay Dyer]

Those are emotional appeals.

[Brian Shapiro]

Does it say that we all have. What does it say in our constitution say every citizen has the right to due process or, or any.

[Jay Dyer]

Every person.

[Brian Shapiro]

What does it say?

[Jay Dyer]

I'll top my head on recall, but I was, I would assume, kind of important. I would assume it's citizens.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you're wrong. In our Constitution, it says any person has the right to due process. This is really fundamentally important.

[Jay Dyer]

But okay, but they also didn't have the idea of infinity open borders.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, again, you use the term infinity, but you said you don't want any immigrants coming into the country. So that's different than infinity.

[Jay Dyer]

My solution to infinity is the closing of the borders.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right. You want the borders closed and you don't want any immigrants coming in. And the point that I was trying to make is if you care about our constitution, which I hope you do, I do as well. It says in our constitution, our forefathers. It says not any citizen has the right to due process. It says any person, and as much

[Jay Dyer]

as a person also can be a lawbreaker and people that are here.

[Brian Shapiro]

Absolutely, absolutely. But that doesn't mean they don't have the right to due process. That's what it says in our constitution.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, yeah, I wouldn't have a problem trying to vet and do do due

[Brian Shapiro]

process, but they're not doing that. Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's, I'm sorry, I mean, I didn't, I didn't.

[Brian Shapiro]

That doesn't bother you?

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't defend that specifically, but just. Now ask me about that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but you're saying that any child that is born.

[Jay Dyer]

I said specifically. Highlighting certain emotionally charged cases is neglecting the bigger problem. And that's what the left tends to do in this topic, is highlight the emotional appeal. Topics about this child or that child, which is unfortunate, but it's not the big issue. The big issue is, is.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm sorry, go ahead.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I'm saying in philosophy and emotional appeal is where you cite a specific example and then you expand that to the, to the totality and say that on the basis of how you feel about this specific example, you should sway your opinion. So the reason it's a fallacy is it's not actually based on the logic of the situation, it's based on what, what you feel like war. Propaganda does this where they say, look at this child, he was killed in the war, therefore be against the war.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I'm just talking about our constitution and the law.

[Jay Dyer]

No, you weren't. You were talking about specifically charged case.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I was specifically talking about what it says in the Constitution.

[Jay Dyer]

First you talked about the motionally charged cases. Then you asked me about the.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm asking you about and I was responding to the law which states if you are from certain countries like Mexico and you're seeking asylum and you come to this country and you fill out the proper paperwork and you're in the middle of that process and you show up in front of a judge, it is illegal for the Trump administration to deport you. And the point that I was trying to make is this isn't a one off or a couple cases. Thousands of people have been deported in the middle of the paperwork process where in Our own constitution, it says they cannot deport you if you're seeking asylum from certain countries. It's against the law. That's not an emotional argument. It's the law that's being broken.

[Jay Dyer]

Thousands of cases versus 10, 20, 30 million people that are here illegally in the last few decades. That, again, it's. That's highlighting something that's not the main issue. So it's more important to. To save the country than to be overly concerned.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think these people are. Are ruining the country, and our country needs to be saved.

[Jay Dyer]

In fact, I disagree.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, do you have a better chance of being the victim of a crime from an undocumented immigrant or an American citizen?

[Jay Dyer]

Depends on where you are.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. No.

[Jay Dyer]

If I go to certain places where there are.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, there's going to be more crime in certain cities. But as a whole, and you could look this up, FBI statistics, you have a better chance of being the victim of a crime from an American citizen than you do an undocumented immigrant. I think that's very important to note because a lot of people think that brown people and undocumented immigrants coming into this country are going to rape your kids and they're going to kidnap your wife. It's just not the case. There are examples. There are examples of undocumented immigrants that do horrible things. I want those people deported. I don't want them here. But the overwhelming majority of these people that are coming into this country that are here already, many of them, you know, that are undocumented, are not bad people with bad intentions. I want bad people throwing out. It'd be true.

[Jay Dyer]

But it's still illegal.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's against the law.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. So you think. So your. Your opinion is if you break the law, there should be consequences. Is that a fair assessment?

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

What are the consequences for Donald Trump, the man who you support? You're laughing, but it's.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, because you're trying to pay me as if I'm some sort of like, like.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, no.

[Jay Dyer]

Support every single policy.

[Brian Shapiro]

This isn't about policy. This is about concepts.

[Jay Dyer]

No, well, now you're. Now you're changing between. When I told you I was an issues person, you say I'm a Trump apologist, which you admit earlier.

[Brian Shapiro]

I did not say you're a Trump apologist.

[Jay Dyer]

You said the man that you support, and I'm like, yeah, no. On specific issues. Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

But you. Okay, so let's talk about this.

[Jay Dyer]

And I already agreed that let's forget about the fact that you bringing up the stuff that we.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because it's hypocrisy. You want people held to the highest. Hold on. I'll explain to you what I mean. And I'm not. I don't think you're a true. A Trump apologist. I don't think you are. Based on the 20 minutes I've known you. I don't think you are. But you want people to be held to account if it's somebody. By the way, it's a misdemeanor. If you come into this country illegally, it's not even a felony. But. But you want people to. Held to the highest extent of the law. In this case, a misdemeanor. Okay, fine.

[Jay Dyer]

I believe for the. For the maintenance and safety and health of the country, because I think the country will collapse.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you. Do you agree with me? I disagree with that. But do you agree with me that we should have that same standard held to the highest people in power, including Donald Trump?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I think everybody, Nobody. Should be immune to, to or above the law. Sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you think that standard has held up when it comes to Donald Trump and the 34 count felony felonies that he was found guilty of or the Jack Smith case? January 6th? Let me ask you another question. Since we're talking about the law. Do you. Do you think January 6th happens if Donald Trump doesn't lie about the 2020 election?

[Jay Dyer]

Would January 6th have happened?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, if Donald Trump didn't lie, which clearly it was a lie. I don't care what Alex Jones says.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

If. If Donald Trump didn't lie about the 2020 election because he didn't win, does January 6th happen?

[Jay Dyer]

I have no idea.

[Brian Shapiro]

You have no Idea. All right.

[Jay Dyer]

Hypothetically speaking, you asked me a lot of questions.

[Brian Shapiro]

Can I just touch on this real quick?

[Jay Dyer]

But I want to do some interrogation as well.

[Brian Shapiro]

Fair enough. You can ask, you can ask me anything you like.

[Jay Dyer]

Last question, Brian, last question.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, to this issue, you're telling me that if Donald Trump did what every other president did in American history, which was conceived, which he didn't, do you think January 6th still happens and people are trying to overthrow a free and fair election. You can't answer that question. You don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

It's just an argument from silence. I don't know what would have happened had this major event not occurred. So it's.

[Brian Shapiro]

So if he conceded and did what every other president did, you still think January 6th happens and they stormed the Capitol and they're saying, I don't know

[Jay Dyer]

what would have happened. Okay, maybe.

[Brian Shapiro]

Does it happen?

[Jay Dyer]

Maybe it's less likely.

[Brian Shapiro]

Who won the 2020 election free and fair?

[Jay Dyer]

I believe there was manipulation, but I think most elections are manipulated.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Who won the election free and fair? Did Joe Biden win a free and fair election?

[Jay Dyer]

No.

[Brian Shapiro]

Is there any evidence of widespread voter fraud that you can share with us today?

[Jay Dyer]

This is my opinion. I don't spend a whole lot of time focusing on voter fraud or voter election issues because I'm not really into day to day politics. But studying the history of the CIA, the way it works, I think that they can easily tap into their techniques for regime change and threaten throwing elections. Did Donald Trump win the 2000 and dozens.

[Brian Shapiro]

Did Donald Trump win the 2024 election free and fair then? Or would you hold that same standard and maybe Kamala?

[Jay Dyer]

No, I think that Trump had overwhelming popular.

[Brian Shapiro]

So. So it's only free and fair if Donald Trump wins.

[Jay Dyer]

But I gave you my opinion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Based on what though? There's no evidence of widespread voter fraud. He had chances in a courtroom.

[Jay Dyer]

Opinion on how the CIA rigs elections.

[Brian Shapiro]

But go ahead.

[Jay Dyer]

So a lot of what you've argued, you keep saying my opinion, my opinion, my opinion. I'm just curious, like where, on what basis ought we go with your opinion?

[Brian Shapiro]

On what? Which opinion?

[Jay Dyer]

Every topic tonight has come back to your specific.

[Brian Shapiro]

They'll be specific on what, what.

[Jay Dyer]

What topic in general, on the. On what basis ought we to choose your opinions?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, first of all, it's not an opinion. But you said that the Trump administration is breaking the law.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've already clearly.

[Jay Dyer]

No. Why ought we do this or that for the country? For example, you said that we out to have certain types of immigration that's legal and this and that. And I'm saying this was my opinion, my opinion, my opinion. I'm saying why ought we do that? Because you didn't apply those things to other places like Japan. So why ought we only go with your assessment?

[Brian Shapiro]

First of all, the United States of America is not Japan number two.

[Jay Dyer]

So why ought we choose that for here?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, because I care about the country that I live in. I'm more concerned about the country that I.

[Jay Dyer]

Are the ethics relative or are they universal? Is the question.

[Brian Shapiro]

As I've said, I wish that every government across the world shared the belief of we are going to vet you properly.

[Jay Dyer]

Ought to follow your ethics because you wish it was the case.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I just don't care what the color of your skin is or where you're from. If you're a decent person, I welcome you in my country.

[Jay Dyer]

So why.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's a pretty fair logic.

[Jay Dyer]

We follow your position because it's logical.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why ought we follow not being a racist? Because that's kind of what I'm Wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

Wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think if you don't want anybody from any other country, which is what you have said, you want our borders completely shut down. I believe that is unamerican.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

The beauty of this country is that we have the freedom and others have the freedom to make something of themselves. So wherever they come from. And I think that's a beautiful thing about the United States. I can't speak for Japan.

[Jay Dyer]

Why ought we follow that though? Because you, because you like it, you think it's beautiful.

[Brian Shapiro]

Know why?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

This country was founded on that, our freedom.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean many countries, many countries are founded on all kinds of things that are stupid.

[Brian Shapiro]

So your reasoning is the country is going to go down the crapper if we.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a two quote.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's, that's your reasoning behind it and I.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so fine, my reasoning is dumb. But I want to know why we

[Brian Shapiro]

have to follow you dumb.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just saying I can see that it is. Okay, why aren't we follow yours?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because we have been following it for decades and I think we're the best country in the world for, for a very, very long time.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a circular argument. So we ought to follow because we've

[Brian Shapiro]

been following Because I do believe immigrants have a lot of benefits to the United States of America.

[Jay Dyer]

But you're not telling me why we ought to follow that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, produce jobs that immigrants take that most Americans are not willing to take. Working for wages. That and Americans, they help the economy. There's no Question that it helps the economy.

[Jay Dyer]

Why are those things the boost? So in other words, you're assuming that there's this good. That you have access to the basis for different cultures.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think is good. I think. I think learning different cultures and I think what's made America great is being for. For lack of a better term, a mix of different colors in the crayon box and being diverse. I think diversity is a good thing, and I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

So there's a standard of the good, which originally was what you said was your opinion and you think that it works. And this brown. What's the standard?

[Brian Shapiro]

Do brown people scare you?

[Jay Dyer]

So now you're asking questions when I.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, yeah, because I don't understand your logic to this. You said America is going to go down.

[Jay Dyer]

You're deflecting away from the fact that your positions are subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm not deflecting.

[Jay Dyer]

Are they relative? Are they subjective? Subjective opinions

[Brian Shapiro]

not based on. On crime and statistics and, and the benefits that the economy has towards ethics.

[Jay Dyer]

Are they subject.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, but I was talking about the economy.

[Jay Dyer]

Numbers, ethics, not the numbers.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about the ethics?

[Jay Dyer]

Is your ethics subjective and relative or is it objective?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I think there are people out there that could disagree with me that are maybe don't like brown people. I think there are people out there that have different opinions that think that brown people are.

[Jay Dyer]

Are terrible to the country. Yeah, opinion. I guess.

[Brian Shapiro]

I guess you could make the case.

[Jay Dyer]

I guess you're not interested.

[Brian Shapiro]

I guess you can make the case. It's subjective. I guess you can make that case.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

I mean, some people could say the Klan isn't racist. I guess that's subjective, too. You could make the case. You could make the case. I know what subjective means.

[Jay Dyer]

What does it mean?

[Brian Shapiro]

I know what it means. I understand what it means. And this is. See, this is Sean.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not sure they do. So in terms of relativism and epistemology and ethics, what is that? What do you think that this is?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I'll answer your question, but this is. This is the Andrew Wilson approach.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I've been doing this debate for 25 years.

[Brian Shapiro]

I know, and you can be doing it for 100 years. It doesn't mean anything to me. It means dick. Okay, so let's continue the conversation.

[Jay Dyer]

We don't have to have a basis for ethics.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, no, no, no, no. This is a word game that you're trying to play with me. So I've done this with Andrew.

[Jay Dyer]

All philosophy and ethics are word games.

[Brian Shapiro]

You can say all racism is Word games too. The point that I'm trying not to.

[Jay Dyer]

For the good. And you're saying it's a word game. Okay, so your position is based on.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've told you, you're not listening. First of all, it's a benefit to the economy.

[Jay Dyer]

Why is that begging the question, what's the good?

[Brian Shapiro]

Why is it, is it a benefit that it people help our economy?

[Jay Dyer]

You have a reference to the good in all of these assertions. And I'm asking you what is this good? Because you just keep saying. Then you said, admitted that it's subjective and it's relative. Well, in that case, then there's no reason to prefer to proffer that on anyone else.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I would ask you the same question. Why is it bad?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't believe in subjective ethics.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well why is it bad for the country? Why are immigrants bad for the United States of America? Why do you want to close?

[Jay Dyer]

I already argued that because a massive influx of other people that are not indigenous to this population replaces the it's demographic.

[Brian Shapiro]

Don't we have a First amendment right to believe in what we believe in there? So you want to take the First Amendment?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you want to say that your ethics comes from the Constitution, that's fine.

[Brian Shapiro]

You want to take, I'm asking you, though, people that are in this country that are not from America, you don't believe they should have a First amendment right to believe something differently than you when it comes to religion or beliefs

[Jay Dyer]

or you misunderstood the question. So the question wasn't are there people who have different positions or do they have a right to a different position? The question was what's the epistemic basis you have for your ethics? Which was purely subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, well then I mean, I mean, I mean if it's purely subjective, then in a debate then you've conceded.

[Brian Shapiro]

But no, I'm, I've not conceded anything. What I'm trying to tell you is that when it comes to immigrants that are in this country, but your ethics is relative. I'm talking about legal immigrants. I can give you statistics that show you that it benefits.

[Jay Dyer]

You haven't told me why we ought to follow your position.

[Brian Shapiro]

Position. I'm telling you because you don't want our economy to be boosted.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't understand. The question is about why ought we follow it? Not just to restate what the position

[Brian Shapiro]

is, why ought we follow it?

[Jay Dyer]

Because. Because it's real.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why should we.

[Jay Dyer]

Because you've already said it's relative and subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why should we not close our borders? And why Does Brian believe that we should allow people from other countries in? As I've told you before, and I'll tell you again.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, it's a higher level order of questioning that's about the basis for the ethics. Not to restate your position again, but why ought we follow your position when you then admitted that your position is relative, objective.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've told you that I don't think immigrants coming into this country as a whole are bad for the United States of America. I've stated my position there, which is

[Jay Dyer]

based on the good, but we don't know what the good is.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I, I've told you already. Which is a benefit to our economy. I believe diversity.

[Jay Dyer]

That's just restating your position. So you're saying, what is the case? This is the case. This is the case. But why ought we follow your subjective relativistic argument? Because when you come to debate and you admit that it's relative.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Then each mean well, then there's no reason to follow it.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, listen, you come from the cloth of you want our borders to be completely closed and we can play word games. You are. And the reason why relativism is the reason why I disagree with you. Instead of getting into a philosophical debate, which I'm not here to do, I'm telling you that in my personal opinion, it's my opinion. I don't have a problem with anybody from other parts of the world, world from different cultures and different backgrounds and different religions coming into this country, so long as they're properly vetted and we know they're not criminals and they have good intentions. I don't think that's a threat to the United States of America. Now you do. You think it's bad for America. You think it's a threat to America. I disagree with you. I've given you multiple reasons why. First of all, a lot of these people are good for our economy. They're hard workers. They want a better life for themselves. I think diversity is a good thing. I don't want everybody to look like you and me. I think diversity is good for the country. Now you can say, well, you know, that's just your opinion. And you're not, you're not basing it on anything. Well, you can base it on the crime rates. You could base it on how it benefits our economy, the financial numbers. There are a lot of different ways, you know, why should we follow all

[Jay Dyer]

of those things are assertions about what are the case.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, tell me, why should we follow you? Why should we follow you? I've answered your question. You might not like my answer. Why should we follow you? And why should we close the borders completely?

[Jay Dyer]

If the ethics that you prefer are relative and subjective, then in a debate, that means that anyone can just state the exact opposite, and it's just as legitimate as your position.

[Brian Shapiro]

To me, this isn't about winning a debate. This isn't about.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just. This is a debate. We agreed to a debate, okay?

[Brian Shapiro]

But to me, when I come to a conversation, it's not about playing word games. It's not about talking about philosophy.

[Jay Dyer]

Why would you think it's a word?

[Brian Shapiro]

Hold on, hold on.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't understand.

[Brian Shapiro]

Hold on, hold on.

[Jay Dyer]

1.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because that's what we're doing now. I want you to explain to me why it's so bad.

[Jay Dyer]

So you just don't want to get drilled into your position to give the basis.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's not about me being afraid of anything. I want to know why.

[Jay Dyer]

Position is based on the good to the good. It's just. I gave you relative, bro.

[Brian Shapiro]

I gave you my.

[Jay Dyer]

Just, like, your position, man. I gave you the dude.

[Brian Shapiro]

I gave you my reasons why I think immigrants coming into this country as

[Jay Dyer]

a whole, well, that's just, like, bad opinion, man.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm telling you. Well, yeah, that's. That's what this entire thing is about. It's about opinion.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not what I'm.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, you. You can have a different way of talking to people, and you have that right to do that, but I don't play that game. So I'm asking you why.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. So if this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why do you want the borders closed? And why do you think immigrants all over the world are so Bad for America. Tell me why.

[Jay Dyer]

I argued and explained that earlier that the demographic replacement of a people group is a form of genocide and warfare. So just. So immigrants just. No, I said mass amounts of infinity immigrants, not legalized immigrants and not reasonable, sensible numbers of people. Sure, that makes sense, but that's not

[Brian Shapiro]

what you said earlier. You want the borders closed. You don't want any immigrants coming.

[Jay Dyer]

Now that's the case. So right now, wise decision.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so right now you think it'd be a wise decision to not allow anybody from other countries that's restating what I just come into this country legally because you think there would be genocide?

[Jay Dyer]

No, I said that bringing in infinity amounts of people is a form of genocide as demographic replacement placement. And that's what I disagree with. So that's why I would say that the present policy would be wise to completely in immigration at this stage.

[Brian Shapiro]

So people that are on student visas are you. Would you be against that as well? People.

[Jay Dyer]

It's. I'm talking about the masses of people. And so, yes, all of it. I mean, a lot of the, for example, Chinese foreign exchange students, a lot of those people are spies anyway. So. Yeah, so.

[Brian Shapiro]

So didn't Trump say he wanted to bring in 600, 000 Chinese?

[Jay Dyer]

Because that was a mistake. Because in his first administration he said,

[Brian Shapiro]

good, I want to cut off these Chinese students. A lot of these people are Chinese spies.

[Jay Dyer]

Probably not wise to do. All right, so again, I disagree with Trump rehearsing on that. That's, by the way, that's another one I disagree with. Okay, let's wrap up immigration.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Yeah, I really don't know what else to say. Obviously I disagree with him. Obviously, I want people to be vetted properly. I think there's a lot of good people all over the world that make America great. I have a lot of friends that come from other countries, wonderful people. I have friends that are from the faith of Islam. I don't come from the cloth of, of judging somebody by where they're from. I judge them on their character. I think Alex Jones is, is just as much of a threat to the United States of America. I think Donald Trump is just as much of a threat to the United States of America than the overwhelming majority of immigrants that come to this country. You ask me, I think we should deport Alex Jones. I think we should deport your buddy to Gaza. Alex Jones is a piece of. I think we should deport Donald Trump to Gaza. I think he's a piece of. These are people that you surround yourself with. This is people that you vote for. I think those people are far more dangerous to the United States of America than a lot of the people that you're talking about that you don't want here. That's my personal opinion. I think there are bigger threats in the United States of America, people that look like you, than anybody that looks brown that comes into this country. You know, racism was wrong. What's up?

[Jay Dyer]

Racism was wrong, right?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. How am I being racist?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you just divided up your assessments on the basis.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Because you are very concerned.

[Jay Dyer]

Racism is wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Racism is wrong. I have no problem with white people

[Jay Dyer]

doing a racism right now.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I'm not. I'm doing orange people. I don't care what the color of skin Donald Trump is or Alex Jones is. Yeah. Because you seem to be having a problem with people that come from other backgrounds. I think that there are people, all sorts of people of different colors.

[Jay Dyer]

But racism is also subjective or is it morally wrong in general?

[Brian Shapiro]

Racism is terrible. Horrible. It's wrong. It's horrible.

[Jay Dyer]

Everybody.

[Brian Shapiro]

Anybody who's a race.

[Jay Dyer]

So now you're not a relativist, A subjectivist.

[Brian Shapiro]

When did I ever say that it's okay to be racist?

[Jay Dyer]

No, no.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's another word game. No. What do you. Either.

[Jay Dyer]

So either something is relative or it's objective. And now racism is objectively morally wrong everywhere. But your ethics was relativist and subjectivist. So you just.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've been very, very clear and I'll make it very, very simple for you. Racism is wrong on what basis? And that was subjective on any basis.

[Jay Dyer]

No.

[Brian Shapiro]

What is your basis when you judge people. Okay. Based on their skin color, when you

[Jay Dyer]

judge people and treat them, is that universally morally wrong?

[Brian Shapiro]

I. I believe so, yeah. Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

But now you're not a relativist or subjectivist. Now you're believing in moral universal claims, which you said isn't really possible.

[Brian Shapiro]

Point that I was trying to make, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's a contradiction.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's not a contradiction. The point that I was Is it

[Jay Dyer]

subjective or is it objective?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm going to give you the easy background.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it subjective?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm going to answer you, but I'm going to give it to you.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you're going to yap to get around the question because either it is.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you.

[Jay Dyer]

Because earlier your ethics were subjective and now they're universal.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. So you can't have both ways. My opinion that when you.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's not universal. So it's not universal. So you just contradict it.

[Brian Shapiro]

So it's not a contradiction. What I'm about to say.

[Jay Dyer]

It's universal. It's not universal. That's a contradiction.

[Brian Shapiro]

What's your definition of what racism is?

[Jay Dyer]

What about.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you think it's universal? Way is it universal?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't. I mean, I don't know even what racism is technically.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you don't know what racism is. Is that a serious state?

[Jay Dyer]

It is a serious. You expect because when people define it, it gets defined in a million different ways. And for example, well, your situation. You just did a racist.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I didn't.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm a bipoc person.

[Brian Shapiro]

No. So I see that.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm a black indigenous person.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm sure you are.

[Jay Dyer]

And how dare you.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you should be. So you would want you to be deported then. So. So let me be clear on this, okay? The reason why I said people who look like you is not an attack on all white people. The reason why I said that is

[Jay Dyer]

because they're lining them up by races.

[Brian Shapiro]

The reason why I said that, which I think you're struggling to understand.

[Sean]

I'm just having fun with it.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't. I mean, I don't think there's anything

[Jay Dyer]

funny when it comes to racism, but racism is subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

But also, here he goes again with his word games.

[Jay Dyer]

No, this is a contradiction.

[Brian Shapiro]

Can I call you Wait, word games or.

[Jay Dyer]

So if I say A and non a, is that a word game or is that a contradiction?

[Brian Shapiro]

So here's the point that Is that a contradiction? Hold on a second. Jay, calm down for a second. Don't.

[Jay Dyer]

So logic is word game.

[Brian Shapiro]

Relax for a second.

[Jay Dyer]

Is logic.

[Brian Shapiro]

The point that I was trying to

[Sean]

make was that this episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. So if this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

You seem to think that if we allow a lot of immigrants coming into this country.

[Jay Dyer]

Infinity brought up.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes. It's bad for America. The point that I was, the point that I was trying to make is people like your good friend Alex Jones and people who you voted for, like Donald Trump to me, are probably more of a danger to this country, I understand, than most immigrants that are coming into this country. Yet you want to be concerned about all these people over the world that you claim are going to cause a genocide.

[Jay Dyer]

You assume that I had no other concerns. I mean, but, I mean, I mean, but why is Donald Trump or Alex Jones more of a threat to the country than millions of millions of.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, first of all, First Amendment, First Amendment, free speech. He attacks people like me on a daily basis with lawsuits, civil suits against you. Yeah. Towards people in the media in general. Media members in general. When you look at the Pentagon press briefings, I can give you an example there. I know people that are way on the right. They don't allow people like me at these press briefings and they don't allow people in Pentagon press briefings unless they're right wing idiots. And if someone gets in there that is on the left or in the middle, Pete Hexth does not call on them. That is against our democracy to begin with anyway. I think that's a joke. When you look at the White House press briefings and we're just talking about the media right now. You asked me about the media.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

When you have idiots like Jack Posobic and listen, I think Tim Pool, I don't think Tim Pool's an idiot, but I think Tim Pool would agree. He's not a journalist, he's a talk show host, just like me. Talk show hosts and opinionated people should not be in that room. That's not about opinionated people. That should be about strictly journalists doing their job. And, and I find that an attack on democracy as well. I think that is a threat to democracy. It's a threat to this country. It's a threat what happened on January 6th. It's a threat that he still has yet to concede an election that was not stolen. By the way, there's no evidence of widespread voter fraud. You cannot, you couldn't articulate that. Whatever you said about the CIA or the FBI or whatever you said.

[Jay Dyer]

I said I had an opinion. Okay, well, you're acting like I couldn't articulate.

[Brian Shapiro]

So all of a sudden now it's okay for you to have an opinion, but if I have an opinion on that, you're Playing words.

[Jay Dyer]

Justification for your.

[Brian Shapiro]

What's your justification?

[Jay Dyer]

I asked for the justification for your morals, which is not okay to just have an opinion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, it's fair enough. What's your justification? That the 2020 election was stolen. Let's use your same logic.

[Jay Dyer]

Have a hard position on that because

[Brian Shapiro]

I said now you don't have a hard position.

[Jay Dyer]

It's my opinion based on the myself.

[Brian Shapiro]

And what's your justification?

[Jay Dyer]

Why do you keep interrupting me when you ask me? But because it. I don't need a justification for my assessment. That's an opinion I don't need. It's a different type of question than what's the grounding for your ethics.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I don't need my justification for an opinion. I guess. I guess I could use the same logic that you just used.

[Jay Dyer]

For ethics. Okay. Not for opinion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, what about our justification?

[Jay Dyer]

Ethics can't be a mere opinion. Yeah, that was the argument. Now you're conflating two different position, two different questions.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, not to believe in democracy. Democracy is.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you don't think we should have elections?

[Jay Dyer]

I think that elections have been kind of a joke for a long time. So I just don't really care about them. So. So it doesn't matter to me whether there's.

[Brian Shapiro]

You don't think we should have elections in this country?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm more of a monarchist. I believe in monarchy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Wow. I didn't expect that. You don't care about democracy.

[Jay Dyer]

I think democracy, like Plato says, retarded.

[Brian Shapiro]

So democracies were. What do you mean? It's gay.

[Jay Dyer]

Faking gay.

[Brian Shapiro]

Can you help me understand something? I guess we could have a little. I feel like words of MAGA supporters. They use homophobic slurs. I'm not saying you. You did that on X to attack people. I don't understand that. It's like the way an 8 year old.

[Jay Dyer]

But.

[Brian Shapiro]

But Brian, democracy is gay.

[Jay Dyer]

It's just a joke, dude. If ethics are relative, I don't understand. Then I just have a different ethic.

[Brian Shapiro]

But okay, so democracy's gay.

[Jay Dyer]

Baking.

[Brian Shapiro]

Can you. That should be the. The title of. So people on social media, some are saying you're a fascist. I didn't say say that. But some people on social media are saying that. What would you. What would be your response to that?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I've done a lot of critiques of fascism on my channel. Again, Christian Orthodox Christianity is not fascist. It's had a history of being monarchist. So if you think that fascism is monarchy, that would be a big historical mistake. Fascism is the joining of the corporate interests together with the state interest. That was Mussolini's definition. Mussolini was originally a socialist leftist who became a fascist. And so I do think that the history of fascism is bound up with, with corporate corporatism. And I'm opposed to corporatism. So I would actually favor a minimalist government. That is a form of hierarchy.

[Brian Shapiro]

I haven't said this, but there are people that have accused you of being anti Semitic. I have not heard anything that you've said in this conversation that would lead me to believe that. Why do you think people say that about you and what are your thoughts on Jewish people in general?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, again, I think guilt by association. If you go on a podcast of somebody who's critical of Israel, you'll get immediately. Really be called.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I don't think that's anti semi.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just saying that you're. I'm answering the question as to why might somebody say that. I do, I do believe that the Talmud is not good. I don't think it teaches good things.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're a religious person.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so I'm giving the answers about. I, I think that Zionism was originally a socialist quasi religious movement from Heim Weitzman, Theodore Herzl, Moses Hess. And I disagree with Zionism, but I think that as an Orthodox Christian, we have a duty to love of all people. And so we can't hate anybody or specifically pick out certain people. But I do think organized crime syndicates like BB Or Jeffrey Epstein should be opposed. But I don't make sense religion, though. I don't make sin genetic, was what I was about to say.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. What are your thoughts on Jewish people in general?

[Jay Dyer]

I think that again, we have a duty, as Paul says in Romans 11, to love and to pray for the conversion of Jewish people.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think religion's bad for people, by the way. Yeah. I think, I think in general terms, billions and billions of people have died because of their religion, because of their religious beliefs.

[Jay Dyer]

But what's wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

I have a.

[Jay Dyer]

What's wrong with that? What's wrong with death? Murdering people's kind of morals are subjective. There's nothing actually wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think murdering people and killing. Right.

[Jay Dyer]

But it's not actually. It's not a universal moral wrong. It's just a personal subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, well, I think most people would agree murdering is probably not good.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

But probably not a good thing to kill.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a fallacy. Because. Because appeal to masses is.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I'm not going to debate that

[Jay Dyer]

because it's a fellow.

[Brian Shapiro]

You Know if you want to keep

[Jay Dyer]

using fallacies, it's not.

[Brian Shapiro]

Listen.

[Jay Dyer]

Appeal to masses.

[Brian Shapiro]

You can try to call it what you want. All I'm simply saying is a lot of people have died, innocent people, because of their faith and religion. And all I'm saying.

[Jay Dyer]

You're saying what is. First of all, it's a genetic fallacy. So because have people have died because of their religion. You know what a genetic fallacy is?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes, I do, but answer my question. Answer my question. I asked you first.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't know what it is. You keep.

[Brian Shapiro]

You keep asking to try to. I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

But if you're making bad arguments. I have a duty. If we were playing chess and you kept violating the rules, like, I would have to say, you can't move the pawn, like.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you're right. Listen, Jay, you're right. Calling democracy gay is a great argument. You're very intelligent. Okay, well, it wasn't very funny. I'm serious, though. Do you care about our democracy?

[Jay Dyer]

Do you care Again, I. I would like to see America flourish and do well. I don't have any hopes for democracy.

[Brian Shapiro]

Democracy.

[Jay Dyer]

I think democracy is a term that's weaponized and used. CIA kind of used this in the Cold War.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't care what the CIA.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm glad you don't care about history.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm asking you about your opinions. I do care about history, but I'm asking about your opinions right now.

[Jay Dyer]

My opinions come from history and from the books that I read.

[Brian Shapiro]

So we shouldn't have elections. What book? What book did you read that said we shouldn't have?

[Jay Dyer]

I just said that I don't have a lot of faith in elections. I didn't say we shouldn't have them.

[Brian Shapiro]

And where's your evidence that our elections are being rigged or stopped? Stolen?

[Jay Dyer]

I said that the CIA has a long history of rigging elections in foreign countries.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's a very general record.

[Jay Dyer]

So that's why I don't have a lot of faith in elections in general. I think that at the local level, people can do a lot more effect. They can be a lot more effective in terms of politics than, you know, national elections. I mean, unless you're a lobbyist, unless you're part of a pack, unless you have billions of dollars. Really? I don't see that's. That's national politics.

[Brian Shapiro]

I understand what you're saying.

[Jay Dyer]

I would have a problem with that.

[Brian Shapiro]

I understand what you're saying, Jay, but I'm an evidence. I'd like to think of myself as

[Jay Dyer]

an okay, All I said is. But everything I said is not even controversial.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but, but Jay, you are not willing to say that Joe Biden won a free and fair election. And my question, I said I have an opinion on. Right, you said you have an opinion. And most people that have an opinion based out on actual.

[Jay Dyer]

And I gave you a reference.

[Brian Shapiro]

You didn't give me any specific.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't think you'd understand the difference between when people have an opinion that they have as a theory or an assessment that they don't have. Have a hard, hard position on versus when they have a hard position. So I have some things that I have hard positions.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. But when somebody tells me that they believe that the election might have been.

[Jay Dyer]

I said it's an opinion based on the way that I know about how the CIA works. That's my opinion.

[Brian Shapiro]

So your opinion is the election might have been stolen because you're based on the way the CIA works.

[Jay Dyer]

If you present in dozens of other countries rigging elections.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you present.

[Jay Dyer]

They rig the elections in Iran.

[Brian Shapiro]

Talking about other countries. That's different.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's the precedence for why it would happen here.

[Brian Shapiro]

We're not Iran on. Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Actually.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Because the way the deep state that you asked about the beginning, the way they operate in other countries is the same way that they operate. That's why.

[Brian Shapiro]

Let me try this a different way. If I'm a judge right now and your case that you're making that you believe opinion that Joe Biden didn't win a free and fair election, what evidence would you be able to present to me other than I know how the CIA works, Which is not evidence, by the way.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, it is evidence.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. Okay, then where is your. You have to have something called wide precedent. Okay. You have to have something presented to a judge called widespread.

[Jay Dyer]

But I didn't come here with a hard opinion again on the 2020 election.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you can have an opinion based on no fact at all.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't say no. Again, you're lying about whether I had.

[Brian Shapiro]

So tell me, give me something that makes you believe that Joe Biden.

[Jay Dyer]

Because I believe that there's a breakaway security establishment that is the, quote, deep state. And the same way that they rig elections care what it sounds like. That's again, a fallacy of association, which you said you're not going to do, which you keep going.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you sound like you're saying that

[Jay Dyer]

I'm sorry, that you can't do the nuance, but that's a fallacy.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're making a claim that the election opinion. Okay, an opinion.

[Jay Dyer]

Are there things that you have opinions on that you're not hard set on based. Based on some theory or gut.

[Brian Shapiro]

Sure. So if I told you.

[Jay Dyer]

Why are you trying to grill me on something?

[Brian Shapiro]

If I told you that I have an. An opinion that Donald Trump is a criminal, I would give you actual cases and evidence to prove that he is a criminal.

[Jay Dyer]

My argument was actual cases of dozens of countries where the CIA rigs elections.

[Brian Shapiro]

But I'm not like in a lot other countries, are you just the United States.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I know, but I'm saying that that's how it would have functioned here.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, can you not get that? So you believe the way the CIA has allegedly rigged other elections?

[Jay Dyer]

Allegedly. They do this. You don't know that. There's dozens of cases like in Iran.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you believe it probably was rigged. How did they do they do that here? How did they rig it?

[Jay Dyer]

Again, the same way that they do it in other countries.

[Brian Shapiro]

How? Tell me.

[Jay Dyer]

There's a lot of different.

[Brian Shapiro]

Educate me.

[Jay Dyer]

There's a lot of different techniques.

[Brian Shapiro]

How did they rig it here? Help me understand.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, it's my opinion that they rigged it probably with pallet stuffing. They can bring evidence about stuffing, though.

[Brian Shapiro]

Wouldn't you have cameras, footage?

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, I don't have a hard opinion on this, so I don't know why you're trying to debate me. Also, like, if I had a hard opinion, I would say, okay, I'll be honest with you.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'll tell you why.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a theory.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'll tell you why.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

The reason why I'm grilling you on this, for lack of a better term, is because there is is zero Let me repeat. Zero evidence of widespread voter fraud.

[Jay Dyer]

Does the CIA do that in other countries?

[Brian Shapiro]

That do they. Hold on, let me just finish my thoughts and then you have the floor.

[Jay Dyer]

But do they.

[Brian Shapiro]

There is zero evidence of widespread voter position. It's not a position, it's a fact. But Earth is not flat and Donald Trump did not win the election.

[Jay Dyer]

You just try to associate.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, no, I'm just showing how ridiculous you're arguing. It's.

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's not. Because I'm saying.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because you know how the CIA works and they do.

[Jay Dyer]

They do that in other countries.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm sure it's happened in the past, but that has nothing to do. That is.

[Jay Dyer]

So that's the precedent for why I have the suspicion of 2020.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you know. So by your standard, you don't believe in any elections?

[Jay Dyer]

No.

[Brian Shapiro]

You think any election is every election.

[Jay Dyer]

Now you're giving a. A straw man. I didn't say every election is.

[Brian Shapiro]

But 2024 wasn't.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a straw man.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so 2020. Yes, I do. 2024.

[Jay Dyer]

But did I argue that all elections over.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Do you know what evidence is? I can play. Yeah, do you know what evidence is? No, do you?

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I don't. Okay, I can play your stupid word games too. The 2024.

[Jay Dyer]

Wait a minute.

[Brian Shapiro]

The 2024 election, you keep saying. Hold on, hold on, hold on.

[Jay Dyer]

So I want to know if the law of non contradiction is a word game.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm asking you a question.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care. I've answered all your questions. Is the law of non contradiction.

[Brian Shapiro]

Hold on, hold on.

[Jay Dyer]

You just say everything's a word game.

[Brian Shapiro]

The 2024 election was not.

[Jay Dyer]

I have a suspicion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but the 2000 suspicion. So the 2016 election where Donald Trump won.

[Jay Dyer]

I sure admitted the CIA does this country. So why are you grilling on a suspicion?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't have the knowledge of that. So in two.

[Jay Dyer]

But you said it probably did happen.

[Brian Shapiro]

Maybe.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know. So that's why. That's my precedence.

[Brian Shapiro]

Final point on this. I'm not making that claim. All I'm simply saying is in 2016, you believe Trump won. In 2024 you believe Trump won. But it's very interesting that you retort back to the CIA as the reason why you think Joe Biden.

[Jay Dyer]

Suspicion, dude.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right, right. Joe Biden didn't win because you have a suspicion. Okay, I'll let the.

[Jay Dyer]

Based on something that you said is possible.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'll let that. So I'll let the listener decide.

[Jay Dyer]

I want to Ask. So if, if I say A is the same thing as not a. Do you think that's a word game or is that the law of non contradiction?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I think you're a hypocrite. I think when you use these words and you have these opinion. No, I think you're a hypocrite.

[Jay Dyer]

That's an ad hominem.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay. No, I wouldn't, I'm not name calling you. I wouldn't say that. But I think you call me hypocrite. Okay, well, because you say certain things, for example.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, fine. You think, let's say for the sake of argument, hold the same standard. I'm evil in every election. Let him ask, Let him ask. Is a the same thing as non A? Is that a word game? Is the law of non?

[Brian Shapiro]

It depends.

[Jay Dyer]

What we're talking about is the law of non. I'm asking you about the law of non contradiction. That's what we're talking about.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Is that a word game?

[Brian Shapiro]

It depends on the topic that we are referring.

[Jay Dyer]

Is the law itself a word?

[Brian Shapiro]

Like I said, I'll answer. It is the wall.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you know that there in logic you study laws, right? What you think those laws are word games?

[Brian Shapiro]

Do I think laws are the laws of logic? Depends specifically what you are referring.

[Jay Dyer]

The one called the law of non contradiction. Is that a word game?

[Brian Shapiro]

What about it? No, I wouldn't say that.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, thank you.

[Brian Shapiro]

Not necessarily so.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not playing word games.

[Brian Shapiro]

But you are a hypocrite. You use a different standard for.

[Jay Dyer]

Don actually didn't argue that Donald Trump was had a different center. I actually specifically said that he should be held. Held to the same standard. I don't think.

[Brian Shapiro]

Which he hasn't.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that doesn't mean that that's again had nothing to do with what I argued.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I think, I think it has a little bit to do, but I do find it interesting.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not what I argue.

[Brian Shapiro]

When Trump wins, everything must have gone fine in the election. But if Trump loses, the CIA must have been involved. That's an Alex Jones conspiracy theory.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not what I argued.

[Brian Shapiro]

That is a conspiracy theory. I know what's going on in the CIA and I don't think Joe Biden.

[Jay Dyer]

I know I said I had a suspicion. You have a suspicion on past evidence and examples that you admitted.

[Brian Shapiro]

So if I said I have a

[Jay Dyer]

suspicion, she admitted it's all possible. Possible.

[Brian Shapiro]

If I said. No, if I said you said the

[Jay Dyer]

CIA, you said the CIA could rig elections.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know. I Don't have any knowledge.

[Jay Dyer]

Possible.

[Brian Shapiro]

What I do know is that you

[Jay Dyer]

said earlier it's possible.

[Brian Shapiro]

What I just. Because I say something is possible.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, then that's my, that's the maintenance. I didn't say that.

[Brian Shapiro]

You did.

[Jay Dyer]

That's my suspicion.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you just have a suspicion? Sure. With no evidence, you want to grow

[Jay Dyer]

me on a position?

[Brian Shapiro]

I just think it's, it's, it's.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, fine, it's hypocrite. But there's nothing wrong being a hypocrite because ethics are relative. Anyway. Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

You guys end up with the files

[Jay Dyer]

in the deep state or what?

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you have seen files?

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

We could talk about that. Sure. Absolutely. Absolutely. You want to go first this time? Go ahead. I'll be a gentleman. You'll let him go? I'll let him go first.

[Jay Dyer]

What's the prompt? Are they, are they real? Are they good? Are they bad?

[Sean]

Like, yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

What would you wanna. I guess you mentioned Trump's in there a lot, but do you have a hard take on that, Brian, on the Epstein files with Trump?

[Brian Shapiro]

Sure. I have some very strong opinions on it.

[Jay Dyer]

So you start off on.

[Brian Shapiro]

First of all, a lot of MAGA Republicans and even members of Trump. Trump's. Well, not before his administration. A lot of people that were around Trump campaigned on this, the Deep State and Hollywood pedophiles.

[Jay Dyer]

I agree.

[Brian Shapiro]

And then they had those binders. As you know, Jay Jack Basovic was one of them. I called him out for this. And Pam Bondi made them all look like clowns.

[Jay Dyer]

I agree.

[Brian Shapiro]

As you know, there's still. See, we might agree on this one. There's still 3 million. Well, let me just start with this foundation. You agree with me that what happened to these kids is horrible.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

And people should be held to account.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

To this day, the only two people. I think there were a few more arrests right. Overseas, but Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein are really the only two people in this country that have been held to account.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Brian Shapiro]

What does Donald Trump do? Well, the first thing he does is says his former personal attorney Todd Blanche to interview Maxwell. A couple days later, she's sent to a Club Med facility. Geez, I wonder why, why they. She's still there, by the way.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

And when she was asked, as you know, I think it was like a month or two ago, she, she pled the fifth and she said she'll only answer the questions if, if Trump basically gives her a pardon. Trump had nothing to say about that. And he hasn't ruled out a pardon for her right. Donald Trump is mentioned in the files that we've already seen partially thousands of times. In fact, Donald Trump is mentioned more in the Epstein files than Jesus Christ is mentioned in the Bible. He doesn't want us talking about it, Jay. He calls people like you and me stupid for even talking about the Epstein. Even talking about it. My, I've been very consistent. Whether you're a left or a righty, whether you're a Democrat or a Republican, I want everyone held to account. If you're in those files, release everything. Redact the names of the victims. If Bill Clinton did some horrible things, fine. Hillary Clinton testified. Bill Clinton testified. Why isn't Howard Lutnick testified? This is a guy, this is a guy, as you know a month ago who said he was never on the Epstein island. And then a couple. Right, of course. And then he landed about it. Trump doesn't want him to testify. Why isn't Donald Trump testifying if Hillary Clinton, you know what they, the Republicans did, they set a precedent. Now Melania should have to testify. She was closer to Ghislaine Maxwell and Jeffrey Epstein than Hillary ever was. So do I know for sure 100% if Donald Trump committed any crimes in there? No, I don't. I know there are accusations.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

But what I do know is that this is a huge cover up. Huge cover up. I want people held to account. This is a huge cover up. And then I do believe a portion of the war in Iran, a portion of it is a distraction.

[Jay Dyer]

I agree.

[Brian Shapiro]

So that's kind of like my.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I, I covered this pretty extensively on my channel. We live streamed, I think every day as these were beginning to sort of drip out. We did about 30 hours of live stream. People can go check all that out where we sort of archived everything. I thought that was pretty substantial that came out out. I do think absolutely that the rest of the, of the files should be released. There should be total, you know, they should redact everybody but victims. Absolutely agree with all that. I do think it was a huge, huge mistake to cover this up and to not allow and not to push for this to be released when this was a campaign promise. So I'm having a hard time figuring out where, where we could disagree on this one. Totally agree. Huge blunder. As big as as any of the other Trump blunders.

[Brian Shapiro]

What would it take for you to regret your vote if, if something came out in the up?

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker. The platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include Buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, to be honest with you, my vote was just kind of anti Kamala. Yeah, you could say that.

[Brian Shapiro]

What was it about Kamala? I know we're kind of. Because we're gonna agree on the Epstein stuff. We're not going to argue about that.

[Jay Dyer]

Only because. Only because I.

[Brian Shapiro]

What was it about her?

[Jay Dyer]

Only because I agreed with. What were the majority of Trump's campaign promises.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I get that part. Let's talk about Kamala for a moment.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't really.

[Brian Shapiro]

Is there anything about her that you just said? I just can't vote because of goober. In what sense? Like, what do you mean she's a goober?

[Jay Dyer]

Just in that sense.

[Brian Shapiro]

Define goober. Like, I just.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I don't take political people that seriously anyway, so.

[Brian Shapiro]

But is there something about her that said I can't. I can't vote for her?

[Jay Dyer]

Like, what are you wanting me to say? That she's a brown person?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, Jay, that's not why. That's not why I'm asking. No, I'm asking the question. I wonder what policies you didn't like

[Jay Dyer]

or obviously, again, the positions, as I said, that Trump campaigned upon, you know, no new wars.

[Brian Shapiro]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

Reigning in the.

[Brian Shapiro]

So it was more about his promises more than an.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm always an issue person. But I definitely think that even if Donald Trump went full neocon, which I always had the suspicion that he could turn neocon, I felt like that it would still be a better bet than Kamala, but I don't even think that. That.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, what I'm getting from you is it was more of Trump's promises that you thought he would keep, which, I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

It was. It was like, if I'm gonn to choose between these two, then I'm gonna at least agree with these Campaign promises. But I also don't believe politicians actually ever, even if they keep half of their promises, that would be fine.

[Brian Shapiro]

He ran them basically on two things. In 2016, he ran on, we're gonna build a wall in Mexico is going to pay for it. Obviously, that didn't happen. And every campaign stop, he talked about locking up Hillary Clinton and he was going to hire a special prosecutor.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

So what would make you think that he was going to keep his promises this time time around?

[Jay Dyer]

Perhaps the. The potentiality that he had a lot of ignorance and naivety about who he staffed as his. As his. As his people. So there was a lot of neocons, a lot of people that betrayed him. And so my hope was that if he saw that Bolton and these kinds of characters were sort of duplicitous, that he might actually take actions to, quote, drain the swamp and actually not have a bunch of lobbyists and, you know, know, okay. Type people.

[Brian Shapiro]

If we can rewind.

[Jay Dyer]

Let me finish. The last thing I would say is that also I think it had to do with. He campaigned originally on not taking GOP money. And then I. I suspect that there was. That he did take GOP money in 2016, and that's why you had so many neocon appointments to his. His staff. And then I just. I had hoped that in 2020 that he would learn from the first mistakes and perhaps at least attempt to not stop.

[Brian Shapiro]

Based on his age and where he's from, he hasn't learned from any of his mistakes.

[Jay Dyer]

I would also say, unfortunately, it seems that way now.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Jared Kushner, when he took $2.1 billion from the Saudis. Donald Trump with his crypto scheme scandal.

[Jay Dyer]

I disagree with all those.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Eight times more wealth now than he had when he first got into office. I mean, I don't know, man. My whole take on this whole thing. And like I said, we're not going to dis. We're not going to disagree on the Epstein stuff. I'm glad we. That's a really important thing, I'm glad we agree on that, is that I went to Trump rallies, and I was criticized nationally for saying it felt like a Klan rally. Now, that might be extreme language. I don't believe everybody that goes to a Trump rally is racist. I don't believe everybody that goes to a Trump rally is a Klansman. But in a way, the way you talk sometimes in a joking fashion.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

99% of the people were white. I went to a Kamala rally, and it felt like America. It was very Diverse. I saw Confederate flags at Trump rallies. I saw a lot of hatred, Joe. And the hoe shirts. It was just like. Just a lot of hatred, man. And I've never said. And I've never grouped all Trump supporters as one. I wouldn't put you in one. I wouldn't. I've never done that ever. And I never will. But I will say this. I don't think everybody who voted for Donald Trump is a racist, but I do believe everybody who is a racist voted for Donald Trump. I strongly believe that. And I. I could go with policy. Listen, you haven't done this, but a lot of people on the right call Kamala. They've called her a. She slept her way to the top. I haven't heard you say that. I'm not accusing you.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't even remember that, but I remember people saying that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, yeah. I'm not accusing you of that. I want to be clear, but.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I'm trying to sleep my way to the top so I could be. Hypocrite for me to call it out.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's funny, actually. See, you made me laugh. You're funny. But, you know, I hated that rhetoric. You know what I mean? Here's a woman who. She became the attorney general, duly elected twice. Even if you disagree with their politics, that's fine.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Brian Shapiro]

This is a woman who became a senator and then a vice president. Wasn't. Wasn't my first, second, or third. But let me be very clear.

[Jay Dyer]

How about this? She's a woman. That's. That would be an area where I don't want her in politics.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why? Tell me why. Seriously?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, sure.

[Brian Shapiro]

You don't want women. Why? Tell me why.

[Jay Dyer]

I want less women in politics, just like I would want less immigration. Well, let's go. I don't think women are fitted for that. I don't think they're made for that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why? Tell me, what's your. Why would you say women. A woman can't be a politician.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't think they're made for that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why?

[Jay Dyer]

They can do that.

[Brian Shapiro]

What are their characteristics that would lead

[Jay Dyer]

you to believe that women tend to be more emotional? They tend to not make their decisions based on facts, reasoning and logic. Typically. Doesn't mean that all. I don't know. That's funny.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm laughing.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you married? Because.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I'm laughing.

[Jay Dyer]

If you have a wife.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm laughing because the guy who you voted for has nicknames for people he disagrees with. You couldn't find a more insecure, emotional

[Jay Dyer]

guy with the question of whether.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'll tell you why, because you're making the case, which I disagree with, that women are more emotional when the man who is probably more emotional, 10 times more emotional I would imagine, than most women that are in office right now, who has nicknames for people he disagrees with, he puts on eight layers of orange makeup when he.

[Jay Dyer]

That's all a bunch of comedy. I mean, it comes to Trump's a comedian. So the stuff you're talking about there.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you want a comedian to be president over a serious person who happens to be a.

[Jay Dyer]

Is a serious person.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you don't think, you don't think Kamal is a serious person. Why do you say that

[Jay Dyer]

again? I don't think most politicians are serious people. Politicians in general.

[Brian Shapiro]

She's got a law degree, she's a

[Jay Dyer]

good mother, she's got a good politicians as like. Well, what's the old, the adage is that, you know, politics is Hollywood for ugly.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so hold on. You don't think, you don't think women should be in elected office. What other job, what other jobs do

[Jay Dyer]

you think are not fit front lines?

[Brian Shapiro]

What if they pass a physical, the same physical that a man passed?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, none of them have passed the Navy SEAL physical.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm not Talking about Navy SEALs, just in general serving. You don't have to be just none of them pass.

[Jay Dyer]

It would then suggest that they're physically different.

[Brian Shapiro]

I believe that if a woman is able to. And by the way, there are some women that are, that are able to pass a, the same physical standards that a man. Okay, so why would you have a problem with them, sir?

[Jay Dyer]

Because the, the exceptions don't make the noise norm. I mean, I think that's kind of common sense that just because there are exceptions, we wouldn't want that to be the norm.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why not the norm be just past this one generic test that all genders have to pass. Why wouldn't that be? Why wouldn't that be a good norm?

[Jay Dyer]

But the test and most women not passing that test would make my point that men and women are fitted and made different. They have different.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's a case by case basis though, as far as physical ability. I think you.

[Jay Dyer]

Again, I agree that, you know, they're both been, for example, frontline soldiers, typically have not been women. And there's a reason for that.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you don't think women should be elected officials because they're quote unquote emotional. They're too emotional.

[Jay Dyer]

Should not be the norm.

[Brian Shapiro]

You don't. That women, even if they pass the basic Physical. That a man has to pass. They shouldn't be able to risk their life.

[Jay Dyer]

The norm. I said, I know that you, You. You're not listening.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm listening to you. The norm. But why can't the norm just be one basic standard Physical.

[Jay Dyer]

Because that's not all that it is. There's also a push. There's a social engineering push to get, for example, all women in America to go to college to become career women. I think that's a bad idea. I think women are made to be at home.

[Brian Shapiro]

So women are made to be at home. A lot of people would call that a misogynist statement. Okay, women are made to be at home. Should women be allowed to vote?

[Jay Dyer]

Again, I don't think voting. I think voting is. Is dumb.

[Brian Shapiro]

So, okay, but we.

[Jay Dyer]

But what ought to be.

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't ask you what your opinion on voting was. I'm just saying right now, where we at? Do you think women should be allowed. Allowed to vote?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't think voting makes sense in general. So you don't like voting? Like an irrelevant question, you don't like voting. But I don't think women, if you want to answer, women shouldn't be involved in politics or geopolitics or any of that.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's not what. They shouldn't be allowed to vote. So they're made for being at home. They're just made for being at home. So women shouldn't be out there in society, in the office place. They shouldn't be able to have their own careers. They shouldn't be allowed to be teachers and doctors.

[Jay Dyer]

When you make that, that attempt to make that a norm for society, it undoes society.

[Brian Shapiro]

So without getting personal here, and I don't mean to be personal. You're a married. Well, I'm not trying to go there with you. That's why I'm asking you first. You're a married man, right? So you tell your wife. If your wife wants to have a career, she wants a job. Maybe she wants to do what you do. She wants to be a podcaster, you would tell her no. Your. Your job is to.

[Jay Dyer]

We do that together, so we have a good dynamic.

[Brian Shapiro]

If she said, that's great, I'm happy to hear that. But if your wife said to you, for example, you know, Jay, I've been thinking, I really want to be a teacher or a doctor, you would tell her no.

[Jay Dyer]

Typically, careerism. No is not good for women.

[Brian Shapiro]

So women shouldn't have the choice.

[Jay Dyer]

There could be. There could be. I also recognize that we live in A world that's not, that's not that way. So people are forced into situations. So I don't blame them for what they were taught, what they were indoctrinated with growing up, but I don't think that that's the best way for women to live.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, but that's your opinion. Why not?

[Jay Dyer]

That is not my opinion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Why shouldn't a woman be able to decide for herself what's good for you?

[Jay Dyer]

Why should Jay do that for them? They can do that in this society. And I think. But if you observe the negative effects of doing that, my view is based on traditional Christian morals. So that's why that's the ought.

[Brian Shapiro]

So Christian morals say that women shouldn't be allowed to have careers.

[Jay Dyer]

General.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, Jesus Christ would have said that women shouldn't be allowed to have careers.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct. Proverbs 31.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, again, I, I, I'm unaware of Jesus's teachings of saying that women shouldn't be allowed to live their life.

[Jay Dyer]

Jesus is what men tell pointed. St. Paul. And Paul says that women are made to be subject to the husband and to have children and to be at home. So Jesus appointed Paul to teach.

[Brian Shapiro]

What if a woman doesn't want to have a child?

[Jay Dyer]

They don't want to have a child.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, if they don't want to be a mother and they just want to, they want to be a career person, is that wrong?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, again, you have the ability to do that, do that. But again, I'm saying that I don't think that.

[Brian Shapiro]

But in your world, you don't think they should have that ability.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I don't have the, I don't think that we have the ability to enforce some sort of, like, handmaiden's tale situation.

[Brian Shapiro]

Of course you don't. But in your world, you would want women.

[Jay Dyer]

But I also believe in, I believe in a degree of freedom in society.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about all the women that are teachers, professors, very successful doctors, surgeons, brain surgeons? What about all the women in this

[Jay Dyer]

country that, what does that have to do with what that's like saying that because people do things.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're making the case that these women, women are not qualified because they're too emotional.

[Jay Dyer]

It should be the norm.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker. The platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a Podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple.

[Jay Dyer]

Simple.

[Sean]

You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

It shouldn't be the norm, Right?

[Jay Dyer]

So, for example, I know one woman who is extremely proficient in history. She knows geopolitics very well. She's an outlier. So it's not the norm for that domain for women to be in that. The fact that we have that in modernity and that it's common doesn't mean that it ought to be the case.

[Brian Shapiro]

This is why I don't live my life based on religion. I don't live.

[Jay Dyer]

But you live it based on subjective. What just.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I don't live my life based on what something is said in a book. I'm not a Bible thumper.

[Jay Dyer]

But it's just based on what Brian says.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's. You're just based on what Jesus Christ says.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's better basis than just what Brian says.

[Brian Shapiro]

I would, I would. First of all, I would respectfully disagree with you with Jesus that Jesus Christ does. Wouldn't want any woman to have a career and be forced to stay home. I think that's a misogynistic opinion. And I.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, can you give a place in the Bible where Jesus implies that that's okay?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't live my life. I don't live my life.

[Jay Dyer]

No, but you said Jesus wouldn't say that. I'd like to think where would Jesus say that?

[Brian Shapiro]

So, so you're telling me in the

[Jay Dyer]

Bible says that who was taught by Jesus?

[Brian Shapiro]

So women should stay at home and they shouldn't.

[Jay Dyer]

You made the argument that Jesus wouldn't say that. So I'm asking where.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I'm asking you where does it.

[Jay Dyer]

Why are you asking me when you made the assertion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, tell me what's where?

[Jay Dyer]

I already did.

[Brian Shapiro]

Where does it say in Jesus?

[Jay Dyer]

Paul says to Timothy that women should not be. Be teachers and that they should not be outside of the home, they should be at home. Okay, so. And if you.

[Brian Shapiro]

I would have to take a look at that.

[Jay Dyer]

It's in first Timothy. But you said Jesus wouldn't say that I'm saying, but, yeah, he does say that, so.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I'll tell you what I think about the Bible, and I'll tell you what I think about religion in general. You can believe in the tooth fairy. You don't know if there's heaven and hell. You have no idea if there's a God, you can believe it. I don't think there's anything wrong with you believing it. I. I actually am not an atheist. I'd like to believe that there's something out there, I. Higher power. But we don't know. You know, you don't know if there's hell or life after death. You don't know any more than I know. And guess what? We won't know until we're dead. But what I don't like about religion is people that push their beliefs on other people. And I believe that's what you're doing.

[Jay Dyer]

But you push your beliefs right now.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I want women to do whatever the hell they want to do, but

[Jay Dyer]

you're pushing that belief.

[Brian Shapiro]

Give me an example.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you pushing that belief?

[Brian Shapiro]

Give me an example of me pushing a belief and forcing other people or treating.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't have to force me. Because pushing a belief does not equate to forcing people to do it. Because you've been arguing your positions the whole time.

[Brian Shapiro]

My whole position is I want people to live their lives and I want people to do it.

[Jay Dyer]

Position that you're pushing on people.

[Brian Shapiro]

I want people to have the freedoms, to have a career, regardless of what's between their legs. I don't give a. What's in the Bible.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but you say, oh, I have all these Muslim friends. They don't believe that.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm gonna ask Sean a question.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, Sean, So you're not going to answer this?

[Brian Shapiro]

No, no, no. This is important. This is important. Sean, I hate to bring you into this. Is it ridiculous for somebody to think.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you disagree?

[Brian Shapiro]

Man says that a woman should have her place not having a career, but should be at home. Is that a misogynistic view? Am I wrong?

[Jay Dyer]

What's wrong with misogyny?

[Brian Shapiro]

I want to know what Sean's opinion is.

[Jay Dyer]

I trust he is referencing a Bible verse, so I think he's approaching it from that point.

[Brian Shapiro]

But is. But would you say that's misogynist?

[Jay Dyer]

And a lot of people would consider ethics are relative. So another wrong with racism or misogyny.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're telling an entire group of people what to do, what you think they should do.

[Jay Dyer]

Like you've done this whole debate where you said that every white man in the. In America must accept your form of liberalism.

[Brian Shapiro]

I never said that. And I'm not a liberal, and I never said that. When did I say, well, you're a liberal.

[Jay Dyer]

You're a classical.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm a classical liberal. Okay, let's go with that. And we had this conversation before, and. And this is what happens when we have these conversations.

[Jay Dyer]

But you've been arguing that the people in America should accept your positions, so you're doing the same thing.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm not asking you to accept any of my positions. I'm just disagreeing with your position.

[Jay Dyer]

I thought debates are about trying to convince people of your position.

[Brian Shapiro]

Are you trying to convince people. I know that I will never convince somebody like you about anything. Oh, you are stuck in your views and your Christianity.

[Jay Dyer]

That's fine, I'm bad. But what about the audience?

[Brian Shapiro]

I didn't say you were bad.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just saying let me be very.

[Brian Shapiro]

Whatever. So, Jay, whatever. Let me be very clear. When I wake up in the morning and I do my radio show, I'm never trying to convince anybody. What you're going to get is my beliefs and my opinions. I don't show up somewhere and say, boy, the way, you know, I saw that Jay Dyer guy and he thinks all women should be in the kitchen. So I'm gonna show up to that debate and I'm gonna try to convince him that women should have their own careers.

[Jay Dyer]

Debates are about the audience.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I'm never going to convince you because this is the way you believe.

[Jay Dyer]

Right? But it's the audience that you're trying to.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, listen, anybody who's watching this, chances are if they're a fan of yours, they're going to agree with you. If they're a fan of mine, they're going to agree with me. I'm not obsessed with audience. I'm not obsessed with changing people's minds. Because in most cases, I think a lot of people that are on the right, that Trump supporters, it is impossible to convince them virtually about anything. Occasionally, I get a caller who calls in and says, you know what, Brian? I made a mistake. I regret voting for Trump. It could be the Iran war, it could be the Epstein Falls, whatever. But I'm not trying, Jay, to convince anybody. That's why we are fundamentally different.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, in the debate, you do not. I am trying to do that because debate's about trying to convince people. That's a classic debate.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well. Well, again, when you make a statement that you believe all women in your Opinion should be in the kitchen. Most people. Okay, most people would define that as extremely misogynistic. And let me tell you something.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care what most.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't have a problem. Neither do I. But. But I can tell you that if a woman is capable and she's smart, then I have no problem with her being a politician. I think there are people in D.C. that are women that are very good at what they do. I have no problem with them. I think a lot of people like you didn't vote for Kamala because they're women. Women. And I think that's wrong. And I think that's wrong. And I think it should be about your intelligence and your merit and what you've done in your life. And Hillary Clinton. Listen, I didn't even vote for Hillary Clinton in 2016, but I'll be the first one to admit she was overqualified for the position based on what she's done in her life. Donald Trump is a reality TV show host. You voted for a reality TV show host. Guy with no. No experience on campaign policy. He was given a half a billion dollar dollar company from his dad when he was like a teenager. This is a guy that was a TV reality star. So if you want to talk about people that are not qualified, I would say maybe we shouldn't put reality TV stars as the leader of the free world more than what's between their legs, which it sounds like you're a little bit obsessed with. I'm sorry, it does sound that way. You would never vote for a woman. It's clear. Right. You would never vote for a woman ever. Right. Ever. Because they're a woman.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, there could be some extenuating circumstances where there's a, you know, lesser of two evils. That's possible. Okay, good. Like, for example, if there was.

[Brian Shapiro]

Hear that?

[Jay Dyer]

If there was a woman running in a local election that I thought my vote would have some effect on.

[Brian Shapiro]

Sure. So you would be okay with a woman being a.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, Brian, I said the whole time the norm. And you wanted to make it like expansive, universal claims was just what I said.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you made the case, and we could rewind the tape, that women are not. Shouldn't be programmed. Women shouldn't be politicians.

[Jay Dyer]

The norm.

[Brian Shapiro]

That's a generalization, that.

[Jay Dyer]

A generalization to include exceptions, which I said, for example, because they're emotional. For example, in the case of. Nina is a friend of mine. She's a PhD in history, geopolitics, translates foreign languages. I mean, she's an Outlier. In terms of a domain that's typically male dominated, I think there's a reason why STEM courses and things like that are dominated by men. Geopolitics, because that's the domain that men are better fitted for.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think in general, every human being is different. Different. Some are more emotional than others. In general, doesn't matter what's between your legs. In my opinion. Some people are smarter than others. Some people are more capable than others. Some people are stronger than others. Plenty of women that would kick my ass. And I said that to Myron Gaines, who is a massage.

[Jay Dyer]

Those are all exceptions, bro.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but you're making a generalization. You don't believe any women should be

[Jay Dyer]

politicians, but you're trying to make a.

[Brian Shapiro]

That they should be in the kitchen

[Jay Dyer]

on the exceptions, and I'm doing the opposite.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but they're. Every single human being is different. And I don't speak for women. Women. But some women choose.

[Jay Dyer]

There's still generalization.

[Brian Shapiro]

Some women don't want to have kids. Some women don't want to be moms. Some women put their career.

[Jay Dyer]

None of those were relevant to what you asked me was the best fit, generally speaking.

[Brian Shapiro]

I mean, listen, going back to my original statements earlier, I don't like government involvement in our lives. I don't. That's my biggest criticisms of religion is that too many people tell other people I'm right and you're wrong. No, my religion is right and your religion is wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

But don't you think in this debate

[Brian Shapiro]

you think you're right when it comes to what religion? I think anybody.

[Jay Dyer]

All the positions.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, let's. Well, let's talk about religion.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just saying, like, you don't believe that about yourself.

[Brian Shapiro]

What do you mean?

[Jay Dyer]

Don't you believe that all your positions are correct? You're doing the very thing when it

[Brian Shapiro]

comes to when it.

[Jay Dyer]

I believe. Let me put it this way. I believe everybody's religious, even you. You have a religious commitment to your positions. You just don't believe that it's a God. You're basically just your own God. And you're saying that all my positions are what I say. And that's my opinion, and I'm not forcing it down.

[Brian Shapiro]

Down your throat. I'm not making law.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't have to physically force things.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm not trying to convince you. I'm telling you my opinions of how I feel.

[Jay Dyer]

You're trying to convince the audience.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're telling half the. I'm not trying to convince anybody. You're telling of course. No, I'm not.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're coming to a debate. You're coming to a debate? Not to debate.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm okay. I'm coming to a debate or discussion to tell you how I feel about different topics. How I might agree or disagree.

[Jay Dyer]

How you feel about. It's a very feminine.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, that's fine. You can call me, I guess. I guess Jay thinks I'm in the kitchen. Then I guess I'm not. Jay, I got. Got bad news for you. I'm not cooking you dinner tonight.

[Jay Dyer]

But you're not gonna make a sandwich.

[Brian Shapiro]

Everybody, everybody is different. Every human being is different. Everybody has different skills.

[Jay Dyer]

What does that have to do with what I argue?

[Brian Shapiro]

Because you're making a generalization about women, how they should all be in the kitchen. And I find that to be extremely misogynistic.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I think generalizations are not again, on your wrong, it's on your basis,

[Brian Shapiro]

the women in your life. And I'm just making. If you tell them, I think you, you all belong in the kitchen. What would they say to you if you said that?

[Jay Dyer]

How is that relevant to. I just, it's another emotional.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because, because I'm curious.

[Jay Dyer]

This is an emotional appeal again.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, but, but I want to know the people in your life, your mom or sister, whoever, when you say, hey, you guys shouldn't be.

[Jay Dyer]

My mom was an outlier, actually. She was a very qualified editor of scientific journals.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think that's great. I think that's great. So why can't other people like your mom, who I'm sure was a nice

[Jay Dyer]

person in this society? They can, but that doesn't mean that, that it's the best for society. So the question was what's the best for society? Not can they actually physically do it. So that's two different.

[Brian Shapiro]

You think it's best for society to get all the brain surgeons and the teachers and the politicians and every woman

[Jay Dyer]

say all I said generalizations. Typically it's not the best for society for women to have what are classically male oriented positions and jobs.

[Brian Shapiro]

Wouldn't that be a case by case basis based on the person?

[Jay Dyer]

No. If you're asking me about what's generally better for society. Society.

[Brian Shapiro]

What about the individual? Does that matter too? What's best for the individual?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I have a Christian ethic and belief, so I think that that's the best for society and for individuals.

[Brian Shapiro]

So I would assume you think that gay people are all sinners. You're against gay marriage because of your religion.

[Jay Dyer]

I believe that those are actions Not a state of being or an identity.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think everybody chooses to be gay? You think Richard Simmons was born straight? Because I think that's ridiculous.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you saying he was gay?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so there are many people when they're four or five. When they're four or five years. I actually had a conversation. I actually had a conversation with George Santos about this the other day. We're actually friends, believe it or not. And George told me he knew he was gay when he was like 4 or 5 years old. And. And it's not a choice. And I think a lot of people who are. Because I talk to these people and they tell me and they're honest, that's still.

[Jay Dyer]

Wouldn't. That's not how you would know that.

[Brian Shapiro]

So Richard Simmons was born so straight.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just saying that. I'm saying that what you answered with would not prove the way that you know that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you think being gay is a choice?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. There can be epigenetic.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you think sometimes.

[Jay Dyer]

Let me finish. There can be epigenetic or societal factors that can influence people's proclivity. Sure. But I think there's still a degree of human volition involved.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. So let's go with that logic for a second. You think men in society who are once straight wake up one day and say, hey, I think I like penis. Now, that's the way you think it works? You think it's a choice like that?

[Jay Dyer]

There's probably, in most cases, a continual progression of moving in a certain direction. I don't think it happens overnight.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, again, I'm gonna start.

[Jay Dyer]

You're just a bunch of straw men.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, here's another one for you. I believe that sometimes in society, people hide behind their religion to hide their bigotry. And when people judge somebody based on sexuality, or in this case, what's between their lens legs, I believe it's a form of bigotry. And you say, well, this is what my religion tells me. No, this is who you are. You decide to think that way. You decide to think that if somebody is different than you, I assume you're straight. If somebody is different. If somebody is different, this.

[Jay Dyer]

But gay people don't.

[Brian Shapiro]

What do you mean?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, if I just told you you're agnostic, there. Couldn't everything be conditioned, Then there are people who are. Could I be conditioned to believe there

[Brian Shapiro]

are people who are?

[Jay Dyer]

Could I be conditioned to my religion?

[Brian Shapiro]

Could you be. I don't. I. I don't know. No, I have no idea.

[Jay Dyer]

Why would I be held guilty or accountable on your world.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because when I talk to people about

[Jay Dyer]

homosexuality, you don't even understand the argument I'm making. If it's I am understanding genetic with gay people, and if my religion is genetic, then why am I guilty and

[Brian Shapiro]

gays aren't and you think religion is genetic?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm saying if that's the case, in

[Brian Shapiro]

your view, religion is genetic. Religion is.

[Jay Dyer]

I do not understand that or I do.

[Brian Shapiro]

Religion is a choice.

[Jay Dyer]

Why can't I be conditioned to my religion?

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by surprise Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now, I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify in about a dozen apps, your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for, well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because sexuality is different than religion.

[Jay Dyer]

You see, for example, why can't I be conditioned? You're an atheist, right? Or an agnostic? Agnostic. Right.

[Brian Shapiro]

I believe that there's a higher power. Okay, but it goes back to what I said.

[Jay Dyer]

But if I'm raised in religion from my earliest days, being taught about, say, not baptized as an infant, let's say I'm brought up in in Sunday school from the age four, whatever, why would I not be conditioned in the same way?

[Brian Shapiro]

First of all, I believe that's wrong. My world view on that.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not the question.

[Brian Shapiro]

Second, why would it be? Here's why, here's why. Because I think most people who are gay would tell you.

[Jay Dyer]

You.

[Brian Shapiro]

And by the way, I am a straight man. I don't speak for gay people, but I think most people gay would tell you it's a little bit different. The fact again, hold on, hold on. It's a little bit different to switch a religion or say by the way, I know people in my life. One woman who was a pastor, she's now an only fans model. She's a great person.

[Jay Dyer]

None of this is answering. Hold on.

[Brian Shapiro]

She made a choice to get out of that lifestyle, in that religion and go live her life.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

Most people who are gay would tell you, you. It's not just a snap of the finger if you're born, I believe, gay and you want to turn straight.

[Jay Dyer]

So those choices are conditioned and they're not actual free will choices.

[Brian Shapiro]

Do you not believe in biology?

[Jay Dyer]

My. You're not even letting me finish it. Because this is a killer for your argument. And I never even noticed as it's literally in this debate. So you can be conditioned to believe or to have those proclivities. But even though I go through the exact same situation, I'm guilty for the choice that I made for the religion which is identical to the conditioning according to you.

[Brian Shapiro]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Why is one of them free will and the other one on.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm going to be very clear again. Here's where I think you're guilty of. And this goes for any religion and anybody. When you judge somebody, what's wrong with judging? Okay, I think it's wrong to judge people.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's great. But your ethics are relative.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so when you judge an entire group of people because they are different than you, because of what the way they look. Look or their sexuality, that is what bigotry is.

[Jay Dyer]

What's wrong with being a bigot?

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, I think that makes you an. If you're.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, but I mean, those are just your own.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you're right. Bigots are great people.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm just saying.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you're right. Bigots are wonderful people. I shouldn't judge bigots.

[Jay Dyer]

Why? Philosophy is good. Because if you learn philosophy, this is

[Brian Shapiro]

why religion is bad. Because he's trying to defend. I didn't make a rel.

[Jay Dyer]

I never made a religious argument. All I said was that when you

[Brian Shapiro]

judge, why is it so hard for

[Jay Dyer]

you Admit that if my judgments are my conditioning, then I'm not morally accountable.

[Brian Shapiro]

On your worldview, doesn't the Bible say not to judge if.

[Jay Dyer]

But if your worldview is correct?

[Brian Shapiro]

Does the Bible say if your worldview is correct?

[Jay Dyer]

My choices are my conditioning, so I'm not liable or accountable.

[Brian Shapiro]

Does the Bible say not to judge?

[Jay Dyer]

It says judge with righteous judgment.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, exactly. So you think this is righteous, taking all group of people?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, because I have a consistent basis to judge actions, not the people.

[Brian Shapiro]

I believe God. I believe God can judge people. People. I don't know what God, whatever. God. I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

Then how would you know he judges people?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, it's a saying. Okay, But I will tell you, I don't Even know if God exists? I don't know. And you need to know.

[Jay Dyer]

He judges. How do you know?

[Brian Shapiro]

I made a statement, as you would say, a joke.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that? Nobody knows that God exists. How do you know that?

[Brian Shapiro]

We don't know for sure.

[Jay Dyer]

Nobody knows now. It's a universal claim. How do you know that? No one knows.

[Brian Shapiro]

Where's your evidence that God exists?

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that? No, I didn't make universal claims claim. You did. How do you know that? No one knows.

[Brian Shapiro]

There is no direct evidence that there is a God.

[Jay Dyer]

But how do you know that? No one.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because no one's presented it.

[Jay Dyer]

So do you know what a universal claim is?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes. Nobody's presented it.

[Jay Dyer]

What's a universal claim?

[Brian Shapiro]

Universal claim is what I just said.

[Jay Dyer]

Which is what?

[Brian Shapiro]

Nobody has direct evidence that God exists.

[Jay Dyer]

And it's what about all states and all people at all times. Universal claim.

[Brian Shapiro]

Sure.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you have access to universal states of affairs?

[Brian Shapiro]

If you disagree with me, then tell me your evidence that God have access

[Jay Dyer]

to universal states of affairs.

[Brian Shapiro]

Give me your evidence that God exist.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you?

[Brian Shapiro]

You could make

[Jay Dyer]

so many philosophical questions or word games. Even though you admitted that the law of non contradictions.

[Brian Shapiro]

Does God exist? Your Christianity does. God exists, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Of course.

[Brian Shapiro]

Where's your evidence that God.

[Jay Dyer]

The transcendental argument.

[Brian Shapiro]

Oh, I see. Okay, so. So that's direct evidence.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, It's a logical argument.

[Brian Shapiro]

And hell and heaven exist, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Where's your evidence of that too?

[Jay Dyer]

Because it's part of the worldview.

[Brian Shapiro]

Got you. So your world view. You know for sure. And if I have the highest degree

[Jay Dyer]

of certitude that one could have.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, you can have the highest degree. It doesn't. It doesn't make it true.

[Jay Dyer]

But I didn't say I did.

[Brian Shapiro]

We don't know if heaven or hell exists. Right, but you don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

But you.

[Brian Shapiro]

And for you to make that I think is insane.

[Jay Dyer]

But you made the claim that you have universal knowledge that no one knows that. And you can't know that even on your own position. So you're going out of the bounds of what you can even do on your world.

[Brian Shapiro]

There is no more evidence that God exists. That's great.

[Jay Dyer]

People keep saying that, but I'm sorry,

[Brian Shapiro]

you don't have the evidence.

[Jay Dyer]

No, but I didn't make the claim that no one knows.

[Brian Shapiro]

You did your entire life on your religion.

[Jay Dyer]

Did you say no one knows your

[Brian Shapiro]

entire life is based on your religion, which I think is a fairy tale.

[Jay Dyer]

That's great, but you haven't given an argument for.

[Brian Shapiro]

I have actually.

[Jay Dyer]

The fair, the fairy tale that you believe in, like free will.

[Brian Shapiro]

I have, actually.

[Jay Dyer]

You have. How do you. What's the proof?

[Brian Shapiro]

You have the freedom to believe in what you want to believe in. I'm not denying you, but if I

[Jay Dyer]

go with Sam Harris or Daniel Dennett, maybe I'm just conditioned to think I have free will and all choices are determinist.

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, you have.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that free will exists?

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, what do you mean you have?

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that exists right now? Because you believe in metaphysical things that you can't do. Justify. You want me to justify. So listen, there's a. There's the problem with saying to a theist that you have to justify it. You believe in logic, universals, things that you can't justify, like free will.

[Brian Shapiro]

So, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

So you don't. You're not going to answer that?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm going to answer.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you believe in free will?

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm going to answer it the way I want to.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Okay. It has to be a good answer.

[Brian Shapiro]

You have to read it. Well, in your estimation.

[Jay Dyer]

No. In anybody's. That's how debate works.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I, I.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, well, if you want to use fallacies, you can do that.

[Brian Shapiro]

I understand. I understand how, how debate. Debate works. Jay, just because you've been doing it for 25 years doesn't mean you have to be condescending. What's free will? I understand that there's a lot of people on the left that are very nice to you when you debate them and you're very condescending. That doesn't work with me. So you don't have to do that.

[Jay Dyer]

Just ask.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've been very respectful to you, considering the circumstance.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm just asking what free will?

[Brian Shapiro]

And I'm asking you to let me answer in the way I want to answer it. Respectfully. You have the free will, I'll use your terminology, to believe in what you want to believe. Believe in. You have the free will to believe in your God, your religion. I usually don't get along very well with extremely religious people. I have almost nothing in common with some of these people. I think it's a mental illness. That's my opinion. Now, if you form and live your life based on your religion, you have the right to do that. But nobody knows if there's heaven or hell. You don't know that. You don't know. You're making the case that there's a heaven or hell. I'm not making that case. What I'm Saying Jay is that there might be. Jay, I'm saying that there might be heaven or hell. I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not what you said.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, no, no.

[Jay Dyer]

You said no one knows. Those are two different claims.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know. That's the way I answer.

[Jay Dyer]

You said no one knows, and now you're saying I don't know. Those are two different.

[Brian Shapiro]

Nobody knows. Nobody.

[Jay Dyer]

Now it's universal.

[Brian Shapiro]

Nobody knows. Okay. There might be heaven and hell. I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know. Is it. I don't know.

[Brian Shapiro]

Nobody knows. Nobody knows. Nobody can provide me direct evidence heaven or hell exists. Nobody can.

[Jay Dyer]

In philosophy, those are two different claims. So which one is it?

[Brian Shapiro]

Nobody on the planet. That's a human being.

[Jay Dyer]

How do you know that nobody.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because nobody's presented direct evidence. That's why.

[Jay Dyer]

That doesn't. That does. That's not a proof that no one knows. That just means that in your limited experience. Experience empirically, you've never verified that. So you don't actually know. If no one knows.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you know for sure that.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're asserting things that you don't know.

[Brian Shapiro]

Somebody would have to present clear and present evidence. But the fact that they have Satan exists.

[Jay Dyer]

But the fact that they haven't done it yet doesn't mean that you know that no one knows.

[Brian Shapiro]

Then nobody has provided evidence, which means nobody.

[Jay Dyer]

So your argument is a bad argument because you can't help me universal.

[Brian Shapiro]

So, Jay, help me understand them. You believe that heaven and hell exist. Can you provide me some?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm waiting for you to give a. A good argument.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I just did. No, you didn't. So I'm asking, Jay, prove me wrong right now. You're a Christian. You believe that heaven and hell exists. Give me direct evidence right now in your belief that heaven and hell exist. Please.

[Jay Dyer]

The argument is the impossibility of the contrary. Your worldview doesn't make sense of knowledge.

[Brian Shapiro]

My question wasn't about worldview. Hold on, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

The argument is a worldview argument. Jay, My question was transcendental argument is a worldview argument.

[Brian Shapiro]

My question wasn't about world views. I'll ask it again.

[Jay Dyer]

My argument is a worldview argument. So when you ask me the questions from religion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Based on religion. So based on your worldview, what is

[Jay Dyer]

that logic is based in religion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, so give me that logic. What is your evidence that would lead you to believe from your worldview is

[Jay Dyer]

a logical argument called the transcendental argument. That is the argument.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, it's just a belief.

[Jay Dyer]

I believe in the two It's a logical.

[Brian Shapiro]

My worldview tells me the tooth fairy exists.

[Jay Dyer]

But you don't have a basis. Word. My religion is my religion appealing to free will.

[Brian Shapiro]

My religion tells me that when I lose a tooth, I'm gonna get a hundred dollars.

[Jay Dyer]

If you, if you took a philosophy class, you would learn that free will is a metaphysical position that a lot of philosophers and atheists. I'm not saying you're an atheist, but people like D. Daniel Dennett or a Sam Harris, they don't believe in free will.

[Brian Shapiro]

So hold on.

[Jay Dyer]

So I'm just trying to say that you're asserting things like free will that you don't have a basis for.

[Brian Shapiro]

So hold on be 30 seconds here. You are making the case in your opinion based on your.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't, I didn't argue opinion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Hold on. Worldview that heaven and hell exists. My opinion is I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

But that's not what you said.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay?

[Jay Dyer]

You said no one knows, which is not an opinion. That's a universal.

[Brian Shapiro]

No one knows for sure whether that's a universal claim.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so James versus an opinion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Tell me where you're getting this from your worldview. Give me some evidence that heaven and hell exist.

[Jay Dyer]

The evidence is the logical argument called the transcendental argument. There's not all. So evidence is not just like a physical object. There are logical arguments that are non physical that are also evidences. That's what you're missing in what I'm arguing.

[Brian Shapiro]

So again, again, I go back to what I said earlier and this is my issue with religion in general. Every religion.

[Jay Dyer]

You're a religious person, bro?

[Brian Shapiro]

Huh?

[Jay Dyer]

You're religious.

[Brian Shapiro]

I never said I was a religious person.

[Jay Dyer]

No, you're rabidly religious about things like free will, which you have no basis Jesus for.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm not a religious person and I don't believe in the tooth fairy and I don't live my life based on a religion.

[Jay Dyer]

Free will is like.

[Brian Shapiro]

I live my life.

[Jay Dyer]

Free will is. This is the same thing as the tooth fairy. Tooth fairy and the free will are the same.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. I live my life based on the way I was raised, the way my parents raised me.

[Jay Dyer]

But none of that.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't hide. None of those religions. I don't hide.

[Jay Dyer]

Those are assertions.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't hide behind a religion attacking all gay people, which I believe that isn't an emotional or attacking. Yeah, you're right, it's emotional. Just judging entire groups of people which it says don't to do in the Bible.

[Jay Dyer]

You're judging what you said was an emotional.

[Brian Shapiro]

All women are more emotional or gay people are sinners. No, these are judgments on. On large groups of people.

[Jay Dyer]

Your argument right now is an emotional appeal, not the statements.

[Brian Shapiro]

You are making judgments about groups.

[Jay Dyer]

But there's nothing wrong with that in my world. You just don't like it.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, I. I just think you hide behind your religion.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Brian Shapiro]

To defend your big.

[Jay Dyer]

That's an ad hominem about my mom.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, it's not. I think you. I think people like you.

[Jay Dyer]

The fact that you think that I'm doing something. Something for bad motives is.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yes, I do.

[Jay Dyer]

Ad hominem motive argument, which is not

[Brian Shapiro]

relevant to when you judge an entire group of.

[Jay Dyer]

What's wrong with judging people?

[Brian Shapiro]

It's called bigotry. And you don't like it.

[Jay Dyer]

So what? So in your worldview.

[Brian Shapiro]

There you go.

[Jay Dyer]

In your worldview, these things are all subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

In your view, it's subjective. In your view it's okay to be a bigot. In your view, it's okay to judge.

[Jay Dyer]

Not inconsistent in my view.

[Brian Shapiro]

No, you're right. You're. You're consistently a bigot. That's what you are.

[Jay Dyer]

Inconsistent in my view.

[Brian Shapiro]

For a debate, use word games.

[Jay Dyer]

Your position is inconsistent, consistent.

[Brian Shapiro]

Because you have consistent. No, you're very consistent. No, I'll explain once again. No, I'm. I'm extremely consistent. Okay. I don't judge people based on sexual orientation. I don't. Hold on. I don't judge people based on color of skin, sexual orientation or gender. I would never tell somebody that doesn't. The logic is I would never tell somebody that doesn't look like me. That you belong in the kitchen. It's a bigoted point of view.

[Jay Dyer]

For your position is what's inconsistent. Not the what.

[Brian Shapiro]

Having a moral compass and caring about all people.

[Jay Dyer]

What's the moral compass?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah. Not telling other people what to do with their lives because you're a bigot. You tell other people what to do. You make assumptions about people because they're not like you and they don't look like you.

[Jay Dyer]

I know that you don't like terrible. I understand that it's not proper.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, Most people don't. Most decent people don't like.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a massive.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's a fallacy.

[Jay Dyer]

So in law.

[Brian Shapiro]

So all women belong in the kitchen. All gay people are sinners. They're all bad. Bad because it's my worldview. Because I hide behind my Christianity. I know that heaven and hell are

[Jay Dyer]

you a basis for why you knew that's wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

I've given a very simple basis. You judge. I don't care whether you think it's full.

[Jay Dyer]

You're judging me.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're judging.

[Jay Dyer]

You're judging me right now.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm judging you right now. You have the right.

[Jay Dyer]

You judge when it's wrong to be a bigot.

[Brian Shapiro]

You think.

[Jay Dyer]

You judge that it's wrong to be a big.

[Brian Shapiro]

When you judge a group of people based on their sexual orientations as bigots. No, I don't. Because not all Christians think like you.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but what's wrong with being a bigot and judging people to be a bigot when you don't have a basis for your.

[Brian Shapiro]

You understand that there are.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't have a basis for your ethic. It's subjective. That's the kill.

[Brian Shapiro]

There is no kill shot here. That's.

[Jay Dyer]

Your ethics is admittedly subjective and relativist. And then you make it universal. That's a contradiction.

[Brian Shapiro]

You are just. You did. You said no one knows I'm painting all Christians as this. I never said that. There are plenty of questions.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it universally wrong to be racist in a bigot?

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I think so.

[Sean]

This episode is brought to you by Spreaker, the platform responsible for a rapidly spreading condition known as podcast brain. Symptoms include buying microphones you don't need, explaining RSS feeds to confused relatives, and saying things like, sorry, I can't talk right now. I'm editing audio. If this sounds familiar, you're probably already a podcaster. The good news is Spreaker makes the whole process simple. You record your show, upload it once, and Spreaker distributes it everywhere. People listen. Apple podcasts, Spotify, and about a dozen apps your cousin swears are the next big thing. Even better, Spreaker helps you monetize your show with ads, meaning your podcast might someday pay for. Well, more microphones. Start your show [e-mail] spreaker because if you're going to talk to yourself for an hour, you might as well publish it.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yeah, I do.

[Jay Dyer]

But your ethics is subjective and relative. That's a contradiction.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think it's subjective at all. You already argued for the first hour.

[Jay Dyer]

It's subjective.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think. I think it comes.

[Jay Dyer]

You argued that.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, you'll disagree with this, but I think it comes down. You're debating yourself. I think. No, I'm not. You said you're making yourself. I think you're making yourself look really bad.

[Jay Dyer]

Did you not say your ethics was in this.

[Brian Shapiro]

In this. In this. In this conversation?

[Jay Dyer]

You said it multiple times. Your Ethics is.

[Brian Shapiro]

Not everybody thinks murder is bad. Not everybody thinks rape is bad. I guess that's subjective, too.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Okay, thank you. So it's objective.

[Brian Shapiro]

So if somebody says, then it's not universally wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

If you said, then it's not universally wrong to be a racist or bigot.

[Brian Shapiro]

If you said to me, no, I. There are people out there that think racism is okay. I don't deny that.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but universal doesn't mean. Are there people who do otherwise.

[Brian Shapiro]

This is stupid. This is how stupid this argument is. If I said right now. No, I think it's stupid. If I said to you right, we

[Jay Dyer]

don't have to have a basis.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it's very stupid. If I said to you that, that racism. You don't have a.

[Jay Dyer]

Have a basis.

[Brian Shapiro]

If I said to you that rape

[Jay Dyer]

is bad, I have a basis for why it's bad. You don't.

[Brian Shapiro]

Oh, I don't have a basis to why bigotry.

[Jay Dyer]

Not a consistent basis. No.

[Brian Shapiro]

Have you seen slavery? You know what? That was that bad. What? When people judged others based on their skin color and owned human is not

[Jay Dyer]

relevant to the ethics of. Of rape.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, first of all, I'm just giving you a general term.

[Jay Dyer]

You just keep saying things are bad because these things happened. And that doesn't get you to an odd. That's why philosophy matters. You need a better. A better argument or a basis for why something's wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

So you need a better argument. But yet you're the guy who says Trump won the 2020 election. You need a better argument. Jay says, but yet all women should be in the kitchen.

[Jay Dyer]

A suspicion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Oh, just for me, it's just a suspicion, Jay. I just have a suspicion.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, if you want to argue that your ethics is based on suspicions, I'll use your stupid.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'll use your stupid defense and arguments and I'll turn it right back on you.

[Jay Dyer]

But I don't have to have the same. Same justification for every position.

[Brian Shapiro]

You're justifying all women.

[Jay Dyer]

So your ethics is a philosophy domain. Politics is something. I don't really care.

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, you're taking entire groups of people and all women. There's nothing wrong with this and this. Well, yeah, I think it makes you a bigot.

[Jay Dyer]

There's nothing universal.

[Brian Shapiro]

I think it's very wrong with.

[Jay Dyer]

That's great that you think that's not universally wrong. And also, by the way, I'm just conditioned by determinism to believe it. So what's wrong with that?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think you hide behind your religion to hide your big I'm just.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm actually giving you atheist lines of argumentation. No, you're not an atheist saying that atheist.

[Brian Shapiro]

Atheists. That all women belong in the kitchen. I'm. No, I'm talking about either, by the way.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm talking about determinism and the idea that there's free will. You believe in a metaphysical fiction that you can't justify if your agnostic worldview

[Brian Shapiro]

is true, called free will. So other than using your word games,

[Jay Dyer]

would you agree that Daniel Dennett and Sam Harris believe that there's no free will? That a law of philosophy?

[Brian Shapiro]

I haven't talked to them. I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

But they do believe.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know that I haven't talked to them.

[Jay Dyer]

Many philosophers do not believe in free will. They think it's a metaphysical fiction.

[Brian Shapiro]

Fine.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's like the two.

[Brian Shapiro]

Many bigots don't think that women. Women should be in the kitchen. So what?

[Jay Dyer]

Tooth fairy? So I want to know why should I believe in free will but not God? In your view?

[Brian Shapiro]

You can believe whatever you want.

[Jay Dyer]

In your view.

[Brian Shapiro]

In my view, when you judge an entire. I've said this like 10 times.

[Jay Dyer]

How is that an answer to the question I just asked? You're not even listening to the question.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm listening to you, and I'm amazing.

[Jay Dyer]

If free will is equated to the tooth fairy in most modern philosophy, then I want to know why. Is it free will any different than believing in God? It's a metaphysical claim.

[Brian Shapiro]

You can. I'm not making that argument. You can believe what you want to believe.

[Jay Dyer]

You argue that free will makes me liable to believing and choosing religion versus gays. You do not have a choice.

[Brian Shapiro]

Jay. You made the argument. Here's my argument. You're not addressing your religion. Jay. Your argument, Jay. I say am. When you take your religion and you treat people differently in a negative way.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm asking you why.

[Brian Shapiro]

Listening to me.

[Jay Dyer]

Why do you believe.

[Brian Shapiro]

We can keep talking about free will or you could listen to my question. You said that's what makes me liable. Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

For my religious beliefs.

[Brian Shapiro]

Jay, just let me get this out. When you, When. When you use your religion and treat people in a negative fashion because of it, okay? It's bad for society. Now, in this debate, you've talked about what you think is bad for society.

[Jay Dyer]

You believe in. In two, three things.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I. I was making a joke about that and how ridiculous.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm saying that it's. It's equated to that. It's. The Flying Spaghetti Monster is a flesh.

[Brian Shapiro]

I Understand, Understand what you're saying, Jay, but in my society that I would like. Jay, you can believe whatever you want.

[Jay Dyer]

No, why should I believe in your worldview and free will?

[Brian Shapiro]

I think if you're a decent human being, you probably should treat people with respect and dignity regardless of whether they're okay or whether you.

[Jay Dyer]

For free will.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, I'm just telling you right now,

[Jay Dyer]

I want a justification.

[Brian Shapiro]

I want. Well, I'm going to give you my justification.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but that's fine. But that's not.

[Brian Shapiro]

I'm going to give.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not a good argument.

[Brian Shapiro]

In your opinion. It's not a good argument, but a lot I think.

[Jay Dyer]

No, in logic, if you make a subjective argument, it's not a good argument.

[Brian Shapiro]

In your opinion mean it's not a good argument. Okay, okay. But in my.

[Jay Dyer]

Your opinion and everything's opinion. Excuse me, what is it your opinion that everything is an opinion?

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't think everything is opinion. There's fact and there's fiction that goes along with it. Like Trump didn't win the 2020 election. That's a fact. That's not an opinion, Jay. That's a fact. Trump did not win in 2020. So I think you're the one who can't spell the word fact. With that being said, when you take an entire. Yeah, yeah, I know you're shaking your head no. It actually makes a lot of sense. The. The earth is not flat, Jay, and Donald Trump did not win the 2000. No, you were, you were arguing that Trump, Trump. You think Trump won the 2020 election. So if you're going to talk to

[Jay Dyer]

me about fact and totally straw man stuff, that not a straw man whatsoever.

[Brian Shapiro]

It's actually completely wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

I never argued anything about the physics of the earth. I asked you about free will and you had no answer as to what that is.

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, you're. You're missing the entire.

[Jay Dyer]

You believe in fairy tale things. I'm just trying to figure out why.

[Brian Shapiro]

What do I believe that's very free will. Tell me what you think free will is, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

I believe that we're made in divine. In God's image and we have the ability to choose things freely, morally good or evil or this thing or that thing. That's what free will is. Now I'm just trying to figure out if you don't believe in fairy tale things like God, why is free will any different than a thing like God?

[Brian Shapiro]

I never said I don't believe in God. What I said was.

[Jay Dyer]

But you said, I don't know if there is One, we don't know what it is.

[Brian Shapiro]

I don't know whether there's a God.

[Jay Dyer]

But you said my belief is. Wait, you said what?

[Brian Shapiro]

I never said that there's no God.

[Jay Dyer]

But then you said my position was fairy tale.

[Brian Shapiro]

Well, what I'm saying is when you make cases and, and you talk about homosexuality and you. No, listen to me.

[Jay Dyer]

When you, Those are mutually exclusive claims.

[Brian Shapiro]

When you make generalizations about people.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, there's no.

[Brian Shapiro]

That are bigoted positions. Well, I think there's something wrong with.

[Jay Dyer]

That's great. But you haven't given a moral basis for why it's universally wrong.

[Brian Shapiro]

Are we not all created as equals or is that not. No, we're not all created.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, am I equal to Kobe Bryant when it comes to physical abilities?

[Brian Shapiro]

That's athletic ability.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that would have to do with creation of our worldview.

[Brian Shapiro]

Okay, well, I thought we were all created as equals, but maybe we're equal

[Jay Dyer]

before law, but not in physical. Physical abilities. We don't have all the same iq.

[Brian Shapiro]

Again, going back to what we said earlier. Let's wrap this up.

[Jay Dyer]

Final points. Final points.

[Brian Shapiro]

Points. What's the matter?

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's just, it's just going. We're at 2 hours 20.

[Brian Shapiro]

We are going a little, we are going, we are going a little bit in circle. I would agree with closing statement, Brian,

[Jay Dyer]

and then I'll let Jay close off.

[Brian Shapiro]

Sure. I'm glad we agree on the Epstein files. I think that's extremely important. Obviously, I would never vote for the orange turd. I disagree with you on. You haven't given me really any reasons why other than you thought Donald Trump, what he did, what he, what he said he was going to do here, here and here. And obviously he didn't do a lot of those things, which clearly you're frustrated on. You didn't really give me many reasons other than Kamala Harris is a woman. And clearly you don't want to vote for women. Yeah, I mean, you know, I, I, you know, you didn't really give me any reasons for that. The reason why I'm not an extremely religious person is because of this conversation today. I believe, especially in Christianity, people make judgments on other people based on their religion because people don't look like them or they, they don't have the sexuality that they have or they're a woman. I also don't like the fact that women and men are separated in synagogue. I don't like that either. I don't like it in any religion. I'm not. That's why I'm not an extremely religious person. It comes down to me wanting to just treat people the same and with respect, regardless of what religion they are. I don't like to judge people. Even if you're wearing a magnet MAGA hat. Okay. I'm not gonna immediately assume that you're a racist or atrocious human being. And I think it's important in society. If you want to talk about society falling. I'm less concerned about immigrants in this country, documented or not. More concerned about people that judge other people or people that are so upset. And I would assume you were one of them that was so upset at what Don Lemon did going into that church and disrupting a church service. Well, okay, I don't condone own people protesting on private property. I think that's wrong. It's against the law. But I find ICE agents murdering people in the streets a little bit more upsetting. We need to have the separation between church and state, which clearly we don't have in Washington, D.C. right now. And I think the people that want the Ten Commandments in classrooms are people that don't abide by the Ten Commandments themselves. They break those commandments themselves. Hence the word hypocrite. I did not come here to. To change your mind or try to convince you on anything. I understand that's your objective when you go to debates. I came here to. To give you my opinions, my views on a number of different issues. Some we agree on, obviously, a lot we disagree on. I think we've stopped listening to other people. This is why I do enjoy doing these kinds of things. But I think, as a whole, we stop listening to other people. People that look differently than you and me, people that have different pathways in life, people that have, you know, been brought up differently in different cultures, different backgrounds. I'd like to think, as a whole, most human beings are good people. And then when we have issues and bad things that happen, like 9, 11, and other issues that the country comes together, even if it's only a week. But this is what I do, and this is what I preach, and I'm not trying to change people's opinions. People can have their own opinions and judgments about this debate. If you're a fan of Jay Dyer, they're going to agree with you. If they're a fan of my show, they're going to agree with me. That's why I don't really care about that stuff other people do. It's just not me. I'm glad, Like I said in closing, Land My Plane Sorry. I'm glad we agree on the Epstein files. I'm glad we agree on some of the Trump stuff. That's refreshing. Obviously, we disagree a little bit on religion, but here's the difference. Like, I would never tell you what to do.

[Jay Dyer]

You.

[Brian Shapiro]

I would never tell you what to believe. I would never tell you that you can't think of something. Even though I might hate the way you think, even though I might hate your opinions on certain things, I would never say, Jay, you are not allowed to think like that. Even though I hate the fact that you think women should be in the kitchen, I would say, you know what? We have something called freedom of speech in this country. And if women. You're. You're clearly a married man. Clearly. It's working out well for you, I would assume, which, this. Which is great. But, you know, I would never tell you that you can't think. Think that way. I think that's fundamentally very important. So, anyway, thanks, Jay, for doing this. I hope it wasn't too torturous for you, and I don't think you're a bad guy.

[Jay Dyer]

It was a civil, lively discussion.

[Brian Shapiro]

Yep.

[Jay Dyer]

I enjoyed it. Go ahead. Yeah, shut up. I would just say, yeah, I appreciate Brian coming. It was a great discussion. Thank you, Sean, for this opportunity. It was good. Yeah. I feel like, you know, there was common ground with the Epstein stuff, with, you know, criticisms of Trump's turn and the war in Iran. All that was. Was good. I would just, you know, again, stress that when it comes to debate, my take on debate is that it's more like a chess game. Not in the sense of it being frivolous or a game, but that it has rules and has boundaries and it has limitations that define it being chess and not checkers or some other game. So when we come to debate, we have to be able to abide by the rules. And those are the laws of logic, which are essentially the law. Laws of critical thinking. The laws of logic dictate debate because that's how we know when somebody's not playing chess anymore and they're doing something else. So we have to play by the rules. I think that Brian didn't play with the rules for the most of the debate when it came to the issues of justifying the morals or when it came to the issues of, say, free will being a metaphysical claim, which, again, to me is no different than the type of claim that God's existence is. So that's when it gets into the domain of philosophy. So, yeah, again, I'm not used to political debates. This is probably, I think, my first political politics debate. So, again, glad for Brian to be here. It's almost always, I think so. I can't think of another one. I've done a lot of, you know. Yeah, he's done a lot of things. We've done Islam, atheism, but I don't think I've debated politics until now.

[Brian Shapiro]

But can you do me a favor? Tell Alex I said hello.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Anyway, Jay Dyer, you can find me on YouTube. You can find me on Twitter, Instagram, all those. Yeah, check them out, guys. We'll link everything below, comment below, who you want to see next. See you all next time. Peace.

[Sean]

Oh, good job, guys.

[Brian Shapiro]

How long was that? Two hours. Two hours and a half.

[Jay Dyer]

Holy. That was my longest debate.