Pt 1 - EVANGELICAL CRASHOUT! E-vangelicals Vs One True Church

Summary

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Jay'sAnalysis – Pt 1: "EVANGELICAL CRASHOUT! E-vangelicals Vs One True Church"

Host: Jay Dyer
Date: May 12, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

This episode centers on Jay Dyer's critique of the contemporary evangelical ("E-vangelical") movement, particularly its online expressions and parachurch apologetics. Dyer contends that many evangelical online figures are promoting a version of Christianity disconnected from the historic one, true, visible Church as articulated in Orthodox tradition. The show features a blend of Jay’s extended monologue, satire, deep dives into historical church canons, and live call-ins from converts, inquirers, and supporters, as well as intermittent light-hearted banter and references to recent online drama with notable evangelical and ex-evangelical personalities.

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Main Themes & Purpose

• Criticism of the Evangelical Online Apologist Model: Jay analyzes how leading online evangelicals act as self-appointed ministers, neglecting the necessity of belonging to or defending a visible, historical church.
• Orthodoxy as the One True Church: Reiterates that only the Orthodox Church preserves the continuous tradition, sacraments, and canonical authority of historic Christianity.
• Contrast with Protestant Sola Scriptura & Churchless Christianity: Jay argues at length against sola scriptura, churchless apologetics, and individualistic interpretations disconnected from apostolic tradition and canonical councils.
• Metacommentary on Online Christian Drama: Commentary on disputes with figures like David Wood, AP, God Logic, Ruslan, and their followers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

The "Parachurch" Problem & Monetizing Christianity

• Satire of Online Grifters: Jay mocks prominent evangelicals, suggesting many are motivated more by metrics and personal brand than true theological conviction.
  • Example [01:46 & 03:11]: Ruslan parody, “I need to monetize and so I fight Christians… I need some money from them, that’s my mission…”
• On Popularity vs. Doctrine:
  • “I don’t need Avery for clout… My metrics are double Avery’s.” [32:13]

Historic Church Authority vs. DIY Christianity

• No Historical Precedent for Churchless Apologetics
  • Jay repeatedly challenges listeners:
    • “Name a parachurch, churchless apologist in the first millennium. Name one. Oh, there isn’t one.” [15:04, 32:13, 36:52]
    • “Who called you to teach? Who catechized you?” [27:52]
• Apostolic Tradition & Canon Law:
  • Explanation, with citations, that early councils (Gangra, Laodicea, Nicaea) presupposed a visible, hierarchical, and sacramentally-oriented church.
  • “These people want a DIY Jesus... You don’t like this doctrine? Craft your own fake rhythm church. Cash app, oh yeah.” [13:34]
• Orthodox vs. Protestant Sacramental Life:
  • “You don’t live the life in Christ by mental assent to a new bunch of propositions… it’s a life lived sacramentally.” [15:04]

Analysis of Early Church Councils

• Quotes and Paraphrases:
  • “The Creed says ‘one holy, catholic, and apostolic church’... the Cappadocians interpret that; they’re the ones that helped author that at Constantinople I and added to the original Nicene Creed.” [15:04]
  • “Local synods... excommunicating heretics that would condemn sainthood, martyrs, commemoration... their intercession.” [15:04]
• On Sola Scriptura:
  • “Why would this early on, the Council of Gangra say this? Because they weren’t sola scriptura.” [15:04]
• Canons of Nicaea/Laodicea:
  • Jay details prohibitions against heretics, mixed marriages, and uncanonical worship practices, highlighting how these rooted out "churchless" or sectarian approaches early on. [27:52, 45:23, 61:25]

Psychology & Social Dynamic of Current Evangelical Scene

• Satirical, sometimes mocking tone taken towards the “grifters” and “soft, effeminate” culture of modern e-vangelicalism (“These boys are soft... faking gay, dude.” [87:23]).
• “They convert [ex-Muslims] from Islam to... another book worship.” [60:55]
• Rejection of the notion that critique = jealousy:
  • “They think the only way you would ever criticize somebody is because you’re jealous…” [15:04]

Callers’ Q&A and Personal Testimonies

• On Conversion Obstacles:
  • “Why not just be Orthodox if you’re going to be Baptist and go with most of the right teachings, but not take the ‘extracurricular things’?” [68:12]
    • Jay: “There’s like a million reasons... family, income, ego, investment in books…” [69:09]
• Family & Relationships:
  • “One of the hardest things is knowing this is the right thing, but I can’t bring everyone I love with me.” [72:18]
    • Jay: “That’s just part of the nature of the gospel… Jesus said, ‘I came not to bring peace, but a sword…’” [72:53]
• Mary’s Perpetual Virginity & Theotokos:
  • Jay refers inquirers to Jerome’s treatise and his own videos on Marian theology to help bridge former Protestant objections. [130:47]
• Soteriology & Salvation:
  • “There is no following the book to a T without the Church, because the book directs you to a church.” [90:02]
  • “With this sphere, they want Jesus without his body. They want a headless, floating, abstract Jesus. It doesn’t work.” [90:10]
• On Sola Scriptura & The Canon:
  • “Canon law is beginning to determine the Bible canon. For the normative canonical Bible of the fourth century in the east, it includes the Deuterocanon.” [99:34+]
  • Critique of Protestant hesitation to admit the instability of their own biblical canon. [64:00–64:31]

Jabs at Opponents & Recurring Memes

• On Conspiratorial Mindset of Critics:
  • “They claim I’m a Muslim sympathizer for agreeing on a point with a Muslim—you know that’s a genetic fallacy, right?” [32:13]
• On Ecumenism & Modern Catholicism:
  • Extended criticism of Roman Catholic art excesses, modernist sensibility post-Vatican II, and lack of real presence belief contrasted with Orthodoxy. [141:59+]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “There is no parachurch apologist in the first thousand years. It doesn’t exist. It’s a made up Protestant business model idea.” – Jay Dyer [15:04, 32:13]
• “These people want a DIY Jesus that allows you to kind of make it up the way you see fit.” – Jay Dyer [13:34]
• “If you’re not defending the Jesus that directed people to his church, you’re defending the wrong Jesus. You might as well be defending the Mormon Jesus.” – Jay Dyer [27:52]
• “I’m not calling Avery out for clout, dummies... I care about Avery and the people in that sphere, I don’t want them going off into stupid heresies.” – Jay Dyer [31:09]
• “The point is, the canons give us a better picture of the mindset of the church in terms of totality, because it’s a broader survey than any individual church father.” – Jay Dyer [26:29]
• “They want a Jesus without a church. That’s why they won’t tell you even which church they go to.” – Jay Dyer [36:52]
• “I will respect the Anabaptists more than these people because at least the Anabaptists admit: this is not the right church.” – Jay Dyer [45:19]
• “With this sphere, they want Jesus without his body. So they want a headless, floating, abstract Jesus… It doesn’t work.” – Jay Dyer [90:10]
• “Why do we even grant Protestants the word ‘Church’?” – Caller “Tingu” [77:27]; Jay: “Technically, we don’t... If the Roman Catholics are a heterodox, non-church entity, how much more are the Protestants...” [78:48]
• “Canon law even preceded the Bible as normative because there was not a fixed universal canon at the time of Nicaea.” – Jay Dyer [99:34]

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Key Timestamps

• [01:16–04:00] – Parody/satire of evangelical monetization focus (“How do I monetize these people?” – recurring mocking line)
• [13:34] – Critique of “DIY Jesus” and custom-made denominations
• [15:04 & following] – Detailed discussion of early synods and the importance of apostolic tradition alongside Scripture
• [27:52] – Examination of Laodicea canons and reception of heretics
• [31:09–32:13] – “I don’t need Avery for clout”—metrics and drama with other online apologists
• [36:52] – “There is no connection to the historical church…”; summary of exclusivist ecclesiology
• [45:23–46:44] – Commentary on marriage, ordination, and church structure in early canons
• [60:03–61:25] – Call-in critique of apologetics without church commitment; Jay: “...the true church is the butt-clapping pastors”
• [64:00–64:31] – Sola Scriptura, biblical canon always in revision; critique of Protestant instability
• [68:10–69:46] – Inquirer asks why not simply be Orthodox; Jay lists obstacles to conversion
• [78:48] – Why not grant Protestants the word “church”?
• [99:34] – Apostolic canons and formation of the biblical canon
• [110:52–111:37] – Call on difference between Roman Catholic doctrinal development and Orthodox economia
• [130:47–131:28] – Perpetual virginity of Mary; response to Protestant objections

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Episode Flow & Tone

• Language & Tone: Jay mixes serious academic/theological argumentation with humor, sarcasm, and internet meme culture. The episode is lively and irreverent, particularly in its satire of online evangelical grifters.
• Format: Jay alternates between monologue (teaching/explanation), satire/music, and live call-in Q&A, fielding both supportive and critically-minded callers.

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Summary Takeaways

• Orthodoxy, not Online DIY: The historic Church has always been visible, hierarchical, and sacramental—there is no precedent in ancient Christianity for solo, churchless, online apologists as ‘representatives of Christianity’.
• Canon Law Precedes Sola Scriptura: Before the New Testament canon was finalized, Church councils and apostolic tradition governed Christian life—the Protestant model is a modern invention.
• Metrics Don’t Equal Truth: Jay rejects the idea that followers or views are indicators of theological correctness.
• Ecclesiology Trumps Pop Apologetics: The episode underscores the importance of belonging to and defending an actual, historical church body.
• Invitation to Disagree: Jay repeatedly challenges listeners and critics to call in and debate, but notes the lack of engagement from opponents.

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For Further Study

• Recommended Reading: St. Nicholas Cabasilas’ works, Jerome’s treatise on Mary’s perpetual virginity
• Videos Referenced: “Veneration of St. Mary,” debates with Church of Christ representatives (Alex Sorin vs. Aaron Gallagher), “How Icons Refute Roman Catholicism”

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End of Summary

Transcript

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[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I need 7 figures I need 7

[Jay Dyer]

figures Bro I got the following I

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

got 28,000 I got 200,000 Tik Tok how do I monetize these people? You know what I mean? How do I monetize these people? I like money and I like shoes how do I build a business? I don't really care about how many

[Jay Dyer]

followers I have from an oriental to

[Ruslan]

a boring rental wigger I'm Ruslan and I'm a boosties proud of skins for every dime buy my merch this my ministry my church I'm blessing God oh JD please don't slay me I've been saving for a yacht Every itty bitty Whoopi got me fascinated Birthday take my pride it's my duty like Mufasa baby my testimony get me money better watch a wigga I'll be back for more super chats like I'm Schwarzenegger niggas I need to monetize and so I fight Christians I need some money from them that's my mission and if I'm coming up against real Christians I run like hell not to take an L A J Don't make me play myself I'm heretic in further than the bell this my meal ticket Please don't make me fail please please, please please bro I

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

got the following I got 28,000 200,000 on Tik Tok how do I monetize these people? You know what I Mean, how do

[Jay Dyer]

I monetize these people?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I need seven figures I need seven figures I need seven Figures,

[Jay Dyer]

bro I

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

got the following I got 28,000 I got 200,000 on TikTok. How do I monetize these people? You know what I mean? How do I monetize these people? I like money and I like shoes how do I build a business? I don't really care about how many

[Jay Dyer]

followers I have from an oriental to

[Ruslan]

a boring rental wigger I'm Ruslan and I'm a boost these proudest skins for every dime Buy my merch this my ministry, my church I'm blessing God oh, J.D. please don't save me I've been saving for a yacht Every itty bitty Whoopi got me fascinated Protecting my pride it's my duty like Mufasa, baby my testimony get me money Better watch a wigger I'll be back for more super chats like I'm schw I need to monetize these soft fights Christians, I need some money for them. That's my mission and if I'm coming up against real Christians, I run like hell not to take an L, A, J Don't make me play myself I'm here A ticket for the dinner bell this my meal ticket Please don't make me fail Please, please, bro, I got the following.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I got 28,000, I got 200,000 on TikTok. How do I monetize these people? You know what I mean? How do I monetize these people?

[Jay Dyer]

Can you name anybody after the time of the apostles that taught your cult view? Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Idiot. From Africa, from the Ashanti tribe. When they came over here, they had their tradition of knowing they were Israelites up until this day. You allow me to finish. You would have heard so I know. They like to believe that we didn't know that we was Israelites, but we knew that we was Israelites. Coming off of them ships. Oral tradition. Coming off the slave ships. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe, taking on them slave ships. I can't help it if academia doesn't respect. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe. Ship. Take it on them slave ships. So now I will ask you a question. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Idiot. Because he thinks that Harriet Tubman has a tradition of superstition that is the basis for his cult's historical lineage. You idiot. Harriet told me. Stop yapping and let me answer your dumbass question so he won't shut up. I know you're not talking about somebody.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Shutting up.

[Jay Dyer]

I know you're not talking now. This idiot thinks that the word gentiles there means Israel. Because the word nation or gentile can also refer to Israel. Because it just means nation, you idiot. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe. Taking on a slave chariot means family. I can't help it if academia doesn't respect. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe. Take it on them slave ships. Take it on them slave ships. Now I will ask you a question. Shut your mouth. You don't have to talk during my time. I didn't talk during your time. He's the most ignorant white man. Is this where we can just disrespect and call each other names? You not understand grammar when you look up Valentine? It's Valentina, you idiot. Iranius. How do you say his name, you idiot? The ad homs. The consistent Harriet Tubman's the mocking my voice.

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

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[Jay Dyer]

Magic underwear fitting tight. Magic underwear is feeling right.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Moment. Space wise Moment. Space wild. I would like to have intimacy with

[Jay Dyer]

you on the planet of Naboo.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Right. Let's create.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a very toe body.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

He looks good. He looks good. He looks good. He looks good. Morning. Space

[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Space.

[Jay Dyer]

They stole some Sumerian technology that allowed

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

them to predict outcomes and that technology stopped working in 2012.

[Jay Dyer]

We're going to get into that tomorrow.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I find it to be fascinating.

[Jay Dyer]

I wonder if they saw Charlie Kirk. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, black bishops, black. Black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. But the Dark ages was a time when black people ruled Europe. So when you go into the real history, you'll see King James was. That's King James right there. That's Jay lebron. That's King lebron right there. Black. He was not a white guy. You'll see his whole lineage of kings. Black kings, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Black King.

[Jay Dyer]

Black bishops, black players, People of the chocolate persuasion. Black kings, Black bishops, black players, People of the chocolate persuasion. Black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Who was a homosexual himself, who was in love with his sister Lucretia, who they made the image of Lucretia to be married. And that became the Renaissance era.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Lucretia.

[Jay Dyer]

So hold on. You telling me Lucretia, that's a black name right there. How you gonna say that the people that was framing the black people were also black? That don't make no sense. Lucretia is a black as hell name. Lucretia. Church even allowed it.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

You know what I'm saying?

[Jay Dyer]

The church allowed for straight pimping. That have been suppressed. That have been suppressed. Listen to my brother. The 1500s, it was legal to be a pimp. Black tang. Black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Black king, black bishops, black players, people of the chocolate persuasion. Oh, yeah. Welcome, everybody. The drama didn't die down. Everybody's even more slay queen than today. Or I should say trying to be a slay queen. We got a lot of pretenders to the throne of wigs, Anthea. We got a lot of gay evangelicals out here trying to make a stank. Trying to pull up on a brother. I mean, a sister, a diva. We got David Wood calling me out. We got AP calling me out. We got, of course, interesting silence from God logic when a lot of people are asking him, hey, why are you sending people to synagogues, bro? Is that where they find Christianity? At weird messianic synagogues, many of which are actually anti trinitarian? Now, maybe this one isn't, but that's not the point. The point is that we already did the whole judaizing heresy thing in the first century. It was already settled. And what's the big heresy that has a stranglehold on the entire grip of modern America? Evangelical Zionism. And these people are pretty much promoters of that. Well, now we know that with Apostate Prophet and David Wood, they're open Zionists. And why is that? Well, because they cannot accept the teaching of the Orthodox Church that the Orthodox Church is the one true church. And as I said the other day, of course, this is a stumbling block. They want a Jesus that doesn't direct them to any church. They want a DIY Jesus that allows you to kind of make it up the way you see fit. Oh, you don't like this or that doctrine? Well, then craft your own fake rhythm church. Cause it's the rhythm of the church. My church. Oh, yeah. Cause it's the rhythm of the church. My cash oh yeah.

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

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[Jay Dyer]

Learn more at americanexpress.com/explatin-platin enrollment requirements monthly and other limits in terms apply. Now let's look at Jay Dyer Hates anyone Successful this is all Redvon has. This is the most leftist effeminate response I've ever seen from anybody who's supposed to be a dude in this whole sphere. This is exactly the way women think. They think that the only and leftist the only way that you would ever criticize somebody is because you're jealous. That's the only reason that I would ever criticize somebody. Well, let's Jay acts like this and then says that we have to join orthodoxy. Yeah, but what I did that was so horrible was to ask any of these people to defend their doctrine or version of the church. That's that simple. And I thought of a kill shot today, which is another kill shot for all these people. Can you name any single person that was a parachurch or churchless apologist in the first millennium? Name one. Oh, there isn't one. Because this is a thoroughly Protestant idea that you can divorce Jesus from his body, from his church, and from his sacraments. The entirety of why people are convert are are converted is to live the life in Christ. And so I'm going to recommend that if you never read this book by St. Nicholas Cabacilas, everybody should read this because he's a, I think 14th century, isn't he? And if you're wondering why my copy is not marked up, it's because I read this in 2007 and I gave it away. And I bought a new copy recently. So that's why? This one isn't marked up, but I have read it and it gives you a window into what was the attitude of Christianity in the 1400s in Byzantium. And what you're going to notice is it's the exact same attitude that you get in orthodox Christianity today. And that book is about our participation in the mysteries, namely the sacraments. That is how you live the life in Christ. You don't live it by a mental ascent to a new bunch of propositions. Oh, I was formerly believing in the Quranic propositions, and now I believe in the Bible propositions. No, no, it's a life lived sacramentally. None of these people promote a sacramental life. Now they might say, oh, well, we believe you could do whatever you want. Yeah, that's just as bad. That's even worse. Whoever thought or gave the impression, again, name a person in the first thousand years that taught a church less apologetic. There's not one. It doesn't exist. In fact, we're going to look at some quotes today that demonstrate that we're going to see the attitude of the Church throughout that time period. And you're going to notice that, lo and behold, the Orthodox Church has the same view. Let's start with the Creed. And we all know the Creed says one holy, Catholic and apostolic Church. And we know how the Cappadocians interpreted that they interpret. They're the ones that helped author that section at Constantinople1 and added to the original Nicene Creed. Well, here's an icon, and this is the icon commemorating the fathers of the six ecumenical councils, the first six before the seventh. And you'll notice that there's nothing Calvin. Calvinists are Lutheran about this. And when we go read the councils, there's nothing Calvinist or Lutheran about these. In fact, we saw last night that the Canons of Nicaea, for example, talked about the Eucharist, talked about excommunication, they talked about the threefold office of presbyter, deacon, presbyter, bishop. They talked about the offering of the Eucharist as an oblation, a sacrifice, etc. Etc. And I want to call attention to another fascinating thing that almost nobody talks about. And hopefully the epilogue is included here. Let's see. Oh, wait, maybe it's at the end. Okay. Yeah, here we go. So this is a local C. We're just using this as, as one example. And gangra is like three between 325 to 380. So right after Nicaea, there was a local Sinai called the Council of Gangrath. And we're going to notice Something interesting that Protestants never want you to discuss or never talk about. So after all, these canons, which, by the way, many of them include canons that are very similar to what you see in Nicaea. Obviously there's canons about monastics living a life of virginity, canons about the priesthood. I think there's canons about the Eucharist as well. I'm going from memory, if anyone shall condemn marriage, let it be anathema. So you had the Gnostics still promoting Tatian's type views, I think, or. Or somebody else's views. I think Tation ended up condemning marriage. But look at the epilogue. So after all the canons, and by the way, notice the fasts and the feasts, if anyone condemns the feasts of the martyrs in the liturgy and the commemoration of the saints, let him be anathema. You see Canon 20. So this is right after Nicaea. The local synod of Gangra is excommunicating heretics that would condemn sainthood, martyrs, commemoration of martyrs, and thus, by extension, their intercession. Now this is this the pet doctrine that Gay P. Uncut incessantly talks about as if there's no patristic evidence, even though it's right here in the Council of Gangra because they're commemorated in the liturgy. Now, what's the epilogue? This is one of my favorite parts. And I remember when I was a Protestant and I was trying to grapple with this back in the day, I had a hard time with this one. It says, thus we write not to cut off those who wish to lead in the Church of God an ascetic life, but who want to carry on a pretense of asceticism. So this local synod, which is still a very prominent local synod in the early church, it was actually dealing with radical ascetics, people that wanted to eschew all marriage. Right. Again, the thing that Paul says, there will be false teachers coming. They will forbid marriage. And so this is still going on in the three hundreds. And that's why this local synod is dealing with this. And it goes on to say, these people exalt themselves above those that live simply and against the Scriptures and the ecclesiastical canon. So notice right here, by the 4th century, there's already an understanding of a connection between the interpretation of the Scriptures in church law or canon law. So there is no diy. Everybody's got their scrolls, and they're doing private interpretation, like goober. Protestants think there is the Scriptures and then there is the canonical ecclesial legal interpretation that the Church gives. We admire virginity with Humility and we have regard for continents. But you can't take an extreme view is essentially what this says. Now, let's go down to the bottom here, because this is the key point. We approve the gathering together in the church for common profit, and we bless the charities done to the brethren and to the poor according to the traditions of the church. And to sum up in a word, we wish that all things that have been delivered by the Scriptures and by the apostolic traditions be preserved in the churches. Why would this early on, the Council of Gangra say this? Because they weren't sola scriptura. Yes, there is a high view of the Scriptures, but there is still not, at this late or at this early stage, a universally recognized canon of Scripture. And yet how are they preaching the Gospel and existing as an institutional, episcopal, hierarchical church? Oh, because of apostolic tradition. The Council of Gangra says it right here. And as a Protestant, I had a hard time with this passage. I didn't know what to do with this. I'll show you. Look, here's my church Father set. This is the 7 Ecumenical Councils volume. As you can see, it is worn down. As you can see, I did actually read it. And here's my notes back when I was a Protestant. Oh, why are they talking about apostolic tradition as part of the paradigm for the Scriptures? Oh, this was hard for me. Now let's look at another synod around the same time, and we'll review a couple of the nicene ones too. Now, when I was a Protestant, the only thing I could come up with at this time when I was challenged with this one was, well, this one is a local council, so it doesn't really count. Says who? If you're a Protestant, the local councils not counting also applies to the ecumenical councils not counting, because you can pick and choose what you want of those as well. So we come over here. And I'm showing you that the reason that church law matters out here, if

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

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[Jay Dyer]

I drive my bus in a busy city.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

That's why road safety is so important to me. I know that I must slow down

[Jay Dyer]

and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safely.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Learn how at www.sharetherodesafely.gov is not whether

[Jay Dyer]

or not the church law is, quote, infallible. That's not the point. The point is the cannons give us a better picture of the mindset of the church in terms of totality, because it's a broader survey than any individual church father. So just assuming that. Oh well, I don't care what councils say, because I have this quote from Augustine. That's just assuming that a single church father is above a council. Well, you don't know that yet. What if the earth, if the orthodox paradigm is true, then the synod, even if it's local, is above any single church father. And obviously I'm not talking about fake heterodox synods. I'm talking about the ones that are accepted as part of the canonical tradition of the church. All right, so let's look at Laodicea, because this is another local synod and this was around 343. 350. All right, this is just. This is not the synod itself. Let's try this. Yeah, here we.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Go.

[Jay Dyer]

Canon 6. It is not permitted for heretics to enter the house of God while they are in heresy. Does that sound like anything that God, logic, Redvon, or even the post Vatican II Protestantized Roman Catholic Church would hold to. Now obviously we don't copy, paste, read the cannons without some nuance or without some equanimia. So this is probably talking about notorious public heretics, right? Like Arius. We don't let Arius come to church. Right. He's been excommunicated or someone of that stature. Right. Because there's going to be people obviously who have wrong ideas who can come to church. So this is talking about public known heretics, obviously. Otherwise you couldn't identify who they were. So public known heretics are not supposed to be attending the liturgy if they've been excommunicated. What Protestant church upholds this? Persons converted from the heresies, that is out of the novationists, the Photinians, the Court of Simians, whether they were catechumens or communicants, among them shall be Received, not be received until they've anathematized all of their heresies. So you understand, the attitude that we have of people converting to the church is the exact same attitude. In the fourth century, at the council at the center of Laodicea, we are telling people to do the same thing that they were telling them in the 4th century to do. And they're mad because we're saying there's no churchless apologetics. There is no parachurch apologist in the first thousand years. It doesn't exist. It's a made up Protestant business model idea. Who called you to teach? Who catechized you? And in the case of Avery, he's just taking all of the Orthodox ideas of the monarchia of the Father and still acting as if, well, I can be an orthodox apologist while not being Orthodox, because I'm not going to defend a church that Jesus set up. I'm just going to defend Jesus, the idea of Jesus as a divine son of God. Well, there is no such thing as a bodiless Jesus because the church is the body. If you're not defending the Jesus that directed people to his church, you're defending the wrong Jesus. You might as well be defending the Mormon Jesus. At the end of the day, even though the proposition is true, yes, Jesus is the Son of God. And even though Avery means that in the correct sense, if you're sending people to judaizing sects, which is what Avery does, then it's scattering in vain. Scattering. He that does not gather with us, scatters abroad. That's what Jesus says. Here's Avery sending people to synagogues. Ah, so I got Radar Apologetics, who's actually a. He's a messianic rabbi here.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

He says that you can connect with him. He.

[Jay Dyer]

He has a synagogue and.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

And so he disciples. Awesome. See?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So, so Radar Apologetics, he says, this

[Jay Dyer]

is the rabbi I'm talking about. He says we disciple online through Zoom Bible study. So notice how Protestant this whole idea is. The church is being discipled by a rabbi on Zoom. You couldn't get more Protestant than that pure Prot Slot. So I don't. I'm not calling out Avery for clout dummies. I don't need Avery for clout. My metrics are double Avery's. I don't need him. I'm calling him out because I care about Avery and I like and care about the people in that sphere. And I don't want them going off into stupid heresies. But notice the first thing they all did was nobody Addressed any of the actual arguments. For example, name a parachurch church list apologist in the first thousand years. Just name one. They just ignored all the arguments. All. And it's all about J.

[Ruslan]

Bad.

[Jay Dyer]

Ortho bros bad. This is such a predictable response. This is all they do every time. Same thing Muslims do. Same thing Roman Catholics do. Same thing as everyone else do. I need Avery for clout. And the only reason people think this is that he's got more subscribers on YouTube and tick tock, who cares about that? You can buy subscribers. And I'm not saying he did. I don't know if he did. But what's a better measure of metrics? Something that's harder to fake is the search. Okay, so let's look at YouTube search. And then only. Oh, why you care so much about metrics? Because they're trying to dunk and throw his metrics in my face today. That's why. Look at this. In the, in the last year on web search, we're double Avery almost always. And when it comes to YouTube, we're equal. Why would I need somebody that I'm already beating metrics wise for clout. I don't need that for clout. So then. This whole stupid drama today was just like next level ridiculous because I don't even know who the Muslim was, right? So some Muslim dude said, Dyer has a good point because he's calling out God logic to and David Wood to defend some actual church and some actual tradition and not the easy grift of anti Muslimity and churchless Jesus. And so then all of these people then make especially David Wood, their whole thing is, oh, he's a Muslim sympathizer and supporter. He's with the Muslims now. And I don't think David Wood is that stupid. I actually think he's just being very deceptive and he's actually more of a Saul Alinsky style subversive because he has to know that agreeing with a Muslim on a point about Avery not being honest, of course, that doesn't mean I support the Muslim worldview. This is so. That's like saying this is what leftists remember. The leftists do this. Hitler drank water. You drink water, you must be with Hitler. The sky is blue. And I say, if a Muslim says the sky is blue. And I say, yeah, you're right, David Wood, look, he supports Islam. That's literally what this was today. And I'm like, what are you even talking about? He's like, you know, this person supports doxing and this and that. I'm like, no, I don't even know who the person is. But what does that have to do with whether what he said was correct? If Judas says and he's being obviously didn't believe it. But if Judas went out with the apostles and preached. If I say what Judas said was correct, assuming that he said things correct, does that make me an Antichrist Judas goat? I'm supporting Judas because Judas said, I mean, this is a genetic fallacy or it's just fallacy of guilt by association. And he has to know that that's a fallacy because he's on enough debates to hope surely what he would know basic fallacies. So agreeing with somebody's point is not an endorsement of the worldview. But he knows, and I'm beginning to think more and more this is what's actually going on. This is exactly like the Christian Prince nonsense from last year. Remember that? Remember when Christian Prince said he didn't know who Athanasius even was and icons are idols and he said, I don't care who Athanasius is. What does that have to do with me? In my Bible, all of these people are under a delusion and it doesn't matter that they get a lot of things correct because the delusion furthers other people into the delusion who think I can create my own parachurch e church ministry, but they have no authority to do it.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Out here, if you're doing nothing, you're doing everything right. Though on a cruise with Norwegian, even if you're doing nothing, you're still basking in the warm sun, enjoying the peaceful ocean waves. You're breathing. Don't forget about breathing. Definitely need to be breathing. So you get to do nothing or everything, but you still need to be breathing. It's like really important experience.

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[Jay Dyer]

Bahamas and USA There is no connection to the historical church whatsoever. And the easy kill shot is, as I pointed out two days ago, if the church of the first thousand years was exclusivist in its ecclesiology and we're seeing that that is the case, then you saying I reject all exclusivist churches or claims means that you're not part of the church of the first thousand years. It's that simple. And that's what Avery said. So people are saying, oh, this is all David Wood, not Avery. No, Avery is also saying there is no one True church. So notice the stumbling block isn't just is Jesus the way, the truth and the life. By extension, if there's one Jesus who had one body, there's only one church in history. That's why Paul says one Lord, one faith, one baptism. That's why the Nicene Creed says one holy Catholic Apostolic Church. These people won't even tell you what church they're in. Oh, they don't want to get doxed. They don't have to say the specific building. They can say I'm a representative of the Evangelical Free Church. I'm a representative of Billy Bob Strip Mall Church. I mean at least the IFB people say we're in Stephen Anderson's cult. But none of these people will actually even tell you what church they go to because there's no, there isn't one. I mean there isn't one that they're defending is what I'm saying. Maybe they go to evangelical church, who knows? So these people will live stream all week long with 30 viewers and then they get propped up by all these goobers just because it's a racket, dude. It's nothing to do with theology. That's why Mahler and Christian King and this their their little boot foot soldier minions Gay P. They won't actually debate. Everybody has asked them to do formal debates and they won't do it because it's not even about that. Mallory or not. JP even said I don't really care about theology. Ruslan said the same thing. Of course not. We saw last night the Peter Drucker model is that dogma is antithetical to a numbers game for mega churches and they're all using the Peter Drucker megachurch model. I thought this was a funny little own. By the way cell phone. I asked on YouTube the same question. Any evangelical parachurch e apologist. Name one apologist or father or anybody as a representative in the first thousand years who had a churchless apologetic. Name one. Oh, there's not one. So they're all doing a self appointed business church model. And it doesn't matter if you get a bunch of things correct because if you're sending people to synagogues, it defeats the whole purpose. You're sending them from one book worshiping sect to another book worshiping sect. They went from Sunni Islam to Rabbinic Judaism, but just messianic. That's another heresy. A sect judaizing is the first heresy that the first that the church dealt with. And of all people scam. Shamu comes out and says that I'm actually corrector. Well, he has to because he claims to be a Catholic, but he's just made up his own invention of apostolic Christianity of ancient churches which is a fallacy. Heresies are ancient. Ancient has nothing to do with whether it's true or not. It is a quality of the true church. But you can have an ancient heresy. Doesn't make it true because it's old. That's the was anachronist fallacy. So here are these heretics, here's this guy being an historian and notice how they default to Nestorianism. She is not the mother of the person of Christ. Way to be an historian, dude. Call in Goober. None of these people will call in now. I lost it. Here we go. Call in historian. We are live tweeting for you guys. And we went for three hours last night with only one guy that would actually debate. Okay, so then we'll get back to the councils in just one second. I mean this is just such a leftist style effeminate projection here. They just respond with the way that they think, right? They think it's about numbers and clicks. And when you find out that oh actually I have bigger numbers than God logic, that doesn't even make any sense. Now notice how they talk about the four letter words and piety signaling and then they turn around and do it. So look at, look at these evangelicals. These are the people talking about how bad the ortho bros are. By the way, I did convert to Islam. Here's the proof. I'll be taking my Shahada. As you see, Lewis exposed me years ago. Here's the proof. Tell David Wood he can clip that

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

and

[Jay Dyer]

they can prove to their ad. By the way, their Adiq audience will believe this because the whole grift is target these Adiq Muslims, convert them to online e church evangelicalism and then you've got a ready made cult of Adiq still. And that's why they do it. That's. I'm convinced that's why they do that model. And by the way, notice that telling people that they have to go to an orthodox church and that they can't just go to any church, that immediately becomes a problem for their model. That's why they won't do it. The business model is more important and growing the channel is more important than whether or not there's one holy catholic apostolic church. It's, it's not. This is not that difficult. It's rock. It's not rocket science. I mean, you're either in this church or you're not Timothy. What's up? What's up, man? I'm you.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Oh, hey, Jake. I was just gonna call and let you know. You let me finish real quick. I just want to give you a huge shout out and kind of say, we're all here for you, man. I think a lot of people been coming at you lately, but, dude, we love you. You know, our parasocial relationship is that you're my friend and you have no idea who I am, but in my mind, you know, you're my friend. Like Rachel Wilson and Andrew Wilson, they're sticking up for you too. We're all here for you. And to be honest with you, like, I want to bring up a historical point because you're bringing up, you know, obviously that's a grift. It's like, well, it always has been, right? If you go back to the Crimean War, which I'm sure you have at least a passing interest in, you know, the entire world, Dog piled Orthodox. Dog piled Orthodox Russia to stop them from destroying the Ottoman Empire and liberating millions of Christians. Why? Because it was their grift, right? Oh, no, no. I'm making money off these guys. No, no, I use them. And that was Catholics, that was Protestants. You know what I mean? You're talking about World War I. Really, before World War I, that France jumped in there, England jumped in there. It's nuts. And they're going to sit here and say we're teaming up with Muslims. It's like, no, you're also. We're the victims of the Muslims. The Orthodox Christian Church. It's the Antiochian bishop who was killed by jihadists.

[Jay Dyer]

Now, these guys are. These guys are frauds, right?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

As they supported rising up. So I don't want to hear exactly. You came up with.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. I appreciate that. This. The Serbs have fought the Muslims for centuries and they're going to act like we're Muslim sympathizers because of a online comment where I said he's correct, criticizing God. Logic. These people are retarded. By the way, notice here, canon 8 of Laodicea. Persons that convert from heresy amongst the Phrygians should be baptized and instructed by the bishops. So this heresy was notorious enough that they needed to have special care with these heretics. Notice how different the attitude of the church in the 4th century here, right after Nicaea, how different that attitude is from these goobers who think that there's a churchless Jesus and you just send them to whatever church who does that. What does this terminology sound like? They would be Calling all the people at Nicaea and Laodicea and Gangra Ortho Bros. Now, Hefala, who's the famous commentator on canon law, says this synod is actually dealing with the invalid baptisms of the Montanists. Montanus had in fact created an entirely weird different version of baptism. And so the economia here didn't count. There wasn't economia here because the Montanus had so mutilated the theology and the form of baptism that the baptism is not valid. And my point there is that's the rigor that you hear us talk about. We don't automatically de facto grant that everyone has baptism, nor did the Church of the early centuries, which is the same view as the Orthodox. Telling you that we have the same view as they do as the Fathers. Now look at Canon 9. Let's see if this is an ecumenist canon. The members of the Church are not allowed to meet at cemeteries nor attend the martyries of heretics. You cannot pray at the heretic services. So notice they're doing intercessory prayers. Saint intercessory prayers, which shows they believed it at this time. Refuting gay p. And they're saying if you go to the martyrs of the schismatics and the heretics, you're excommunicated. Does that sound like the ecumenist e Christianity of these frauds and these people doing their grift? No, it's what Orthodoxy says. Now, maybe you disagree. You don't like all this. Fine. Just admit that you don't believe the Church of the first thousand. Just admit your position is Anabaptist. I will respect the Anabaptists more than these people because the Anabaptists, who are absolutely insane lunatics, they'll at least admit this is not the right church. And this is the orthodox Catholic type stuff. And we don't like that. That's Antichrist. So all of these people are heretics. They're more consistent than you on this point. Canon 10. Members of the Church shall not indiscriminately marry their children to heretics. Imagine God logic saying that. Imagine David woods saying that. Imagine Wes Huff saying that. They can't say that because there is no visible body that can say who's in and who's out. Because everybody's in. Oh, except Mormons. Why? Because they'll believe in the Trinity. You don't believe in the Trinity. You believe in the Protestant Martin Luther Augustinian Trinity. You don't believe in the Orthodox. Constant Anthony Noble. One Trinity. What are you Talking about. Female presidents. Canon 11 presiders are not to be appointed in the church. Presbyterians, no, female priests. Protestant charismatic churches are full of them. Now remember, this is also because the previous canons were dealing with the Montanists. And the Montanists were the first heresy in the early church who believed in ongoing continuous divine revelation. They ended up snagging Tertullian who apostatized and became a Montanist. They were also some of the first to promote women pastors, women preachers and teachers. So they were early feminists. Okay, well Canon 11 of Laodicea already says absolutely not. By the way, this is also showing that they wouldn't want a continuing office of the deaconess. Also not necessary. Canon 12 bishops are to be appointed by the ecclesiastical government and the judgment of the metropolitans and neighboring bishops after they've been long proved their foundation in the faith and conversation of an honest life. The only Protestants who could even pretend to say that statement are Anglicans. And they are. They're all full gay. So they're already done. What Protestant could say that? By the way, it refutes Roman Catholicism and shows that they didn't have a papal idea. Because in the Roman Church after the Middle Ages, the Pope appoints every bishop in the world. How come there's no mention of the Pope appointing any bishops here? How come it's local and decentralized? Canon 13, the decision of those who are to become priests is not committed to the lay people. Protestantism is a bottom up theology. The whole thing is premised on the idea that the laity create their own priesthood and church. And notice right here that that's cut off at the Synod of Laodicea by noting that no, no, this is not a democratic organization bottom up, where you just decide to become a priest. Every Protestant preacher has decided to become his own priest. But what I wanted to Note was Canon 9. Note that the celebration of the martyrs and their intercession and their feast days already exists. And you cannot do it amongst the heretics. That means there's one true holy, orthodox, visible apostolic church. Now there's a longer form, I think, of these. Yeah. 33, check this one out. 31 is not lawful to make marriage with any kind of heretic. Canon33, look at this. No one shall join in prayer with heretics and schismatics. So what Protestants don't understand, this is a key point here, is that heresy and schism only makes sense in terms of canonical limitations, canon law. And since Protestants don't have canon law, there's no sense to the idea of them being able to judge who is and isn't a heretic. For the Orthodox, the canonical churches, the ones that follow and are in communion, that follow the canons. And the canons, by the way, are not interpreted by the individuals, are interpreted by the bishops, as Trello says. And Trello says the bishops have the authority to tighten or laxin, lax, laxen up, make a word up the application of the canons, not the laity and not the priests. The bishops have the authority to do that. But how is a heretic or a schismatic determined canonically? Those that are not in the canonical church are the heretics. And the schismatics do not forsake Christian martyrs and turn to false martyrs amongst the heretics. This is why I said that may anger to all the cops. I said as Orthodox, we can't accept Coptic martyrs. I'm sorry, I'm just being faithful to my tradition. And then like the Muslims that they are, the Coptics all lost their mind and tried to. And they acted like the Muslims that they are. Christians must not forsake the Catholic Church of God and go away invoking angels, gathering assemblies, etc. So this is saying you can't go into weird angel theology and rights. You cannot enter the priesthood and be a magician, an occultist, etc. It says mathematician, but at that time that just meant a person that was associated with sigils. Right. It is not lawful to participate, we'll say, in the Feast of Jews and Heretics. By the way, if it's not lawful to participate in the Feast of Jews and Heretics, how does that comport with Ridvon and David woods rabid Zionism? No one amongst the priesthood or the clergy may travel without letters that are canonical. This means that you get permission to. So that you don't invade and go into other people's jurisdictions. That's what this is talking about. Look at Canon 44. Women may not go to the altar. Protestants don't have an altar. What Protestants are forbidding women to be at the altar and on the altar? None of them, because there is no altar. So who has the church? That's the same as the church of the fourth century. We do. And it. It's also not the basically ecumenist, apostate Vatican II Church. Right now that's just Laodicea. These are. So we've just looked at two local synods as example, texts of the mindset of the church in the 4th century. Both of those are right after Nicaea. Right. And as a review, we'll look back at the Canons of Nicaea really quick, Because most Protestants who are, of course, largely typically ignorant, they think, oh, I believe Council Nicaea because I love Athanasius and he just taught the deed of Christ. No, that's not all he taught. That's not all Nicaea teaches either, by the way. So we'll note in the canons of Nicaea 1:325, There's limitations on who can become clergy based on the canons at that time. In other words, if you castrated yourself like Origen did, you cannot be amongst the clergy. Canon one, have you ever heard of anything like this? Do Protestants even have canon law? Of course not. Then they're not in line with the Church. The basic functioning of the Church in. At Nicaea, which they all claim to love. The whole Protestant, the evangelical ethos is just based on you being ignorant. The whole thing is based on you not actually seeing and knowing what they actually said at Nicaea. And once you go and look, you can either become a reform, a radical Reformation person and say the church died like Ann Lee, George Fox, Paul Washer, or you become Catholic or Orthodox. And if you become Catholic, we got about a thousand videos on the problem that you're going to encounter that way. So let's see if we got any callers. Michael, what's up? Michael, what's up? I'm you.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, Jay, how you doing? Good. Yeah, I like to just stay. I'm with you on this. I. I kind of see, like, this is just pure craziness, like comparing us to jihadis.

[Jay Dyer]

I think he knows better than that. He's just reaching for the most. He knows that his low IQ audience will fall for emotional appeals and guilt by association. I mean, the entire audience that he has is like evangelicals that have converted out of Islam. So that's it. That's what they respond to. Emotional appeals and guilt by association, not argumentation and logic and facts. Facts.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Well, I'm gonna be heading. Yeah, I'm planning to head because I live in California, to St. Herman of Alaska Monastery. The same monastery St. Terre from Rose was that. And I'm gonna see if I could bring back something with me so I could send it to you.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. I hope you have a good time. That's cool. I've heard good things about that place. I've never been there myself, but I did really enjoy many years ago, the Rokor Cathedral in San Francisco where they have the relics of St. John. That was really cool. Christopher, what's up? Christopher?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Christopher.

[Jay Dyer]

Christopher,

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm doing Christopher and Tony. Go ahead.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, what's up, Jay? I, I have two quick things. So the first thing is all these Protestant grifters who do their like apologetics and say, oh, just become a Christian. And it's like, okay, well you know, they're, they're evangelical. So what kind of church should they go to? Should they go to Gavin Orland's, you know, Calvinist church or do like, do they go to the character?

[Jay Dyer]

No, they need to be under. They need to be under. They need to be under Dr. Russell Moore and Gavin Orland's gay pastor Alberry or whatever. That's the true church. The true church is the butt clapping pastors.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

That just makes me so sick because people watch them online and they're like, oh, they're so based. They're converting Muslims and it's like the Muslim walks into the charismatic church.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I'm gonna become a Christian.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, they convert them from Islam to, from one book worship to another book worship. Ref. Beezy. What's up? By the way, you notice when you read these cannons? Oh, they sound like the mean ortho bros, don't they? They sound just like the mean ortho bros. What's up, Ray Beasy? What's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey. I was looking at some of West Hope's posts and I noticed, I think it was when he blocked you. He said, let no unwholesome word proceed from your mouth. Well then he turns around and says he just happened to run into Sam Albury when he was for there for Sean Ryan. But if you look at his picture, he's standing right in front of some Sam Albert's church.

[Jay Dyer]

So he didn't actually, he didn't actually just happen to run into him. They were. He was at his church.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

So it sounds like Westhouse line.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I mean, isn't that unwholesome?

[Jay Dyer]

Lying? Yeah, that's unwholesome.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah. That's all.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Great, great fun. Great. Notice I didn't know that. Yeah. Most of these people, by the way, I've noticed over the years, like you can't actually believe half of what these people say. I mean, evangelicals are very notorious for the nice friendly face and then the absolutely just nasty snake behavior in the background. George, what's up? So you'll notice, look, I know people. Oh, this is the kid. Traditions of man in the book of acts, in Acts 15, the exact same pattern of a council deciding an issue and laying out a pattern of canon church law. In Acts 15, they say, we decide this. Let this letter be sent to the churches. This is the decision. That's the pattern of all of these other synods. That's what the church is synodal. What's up, man?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Aj, can you hear me? I'm in my car. I don't know if the mic's on.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I can.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah. So I was thinking about Sola Scriptura the other day. You know, I converted to orthodoxy a few months ago, and, you know, in the Protestant world, they have this doctrine or this idea where every. It's ongoing reformation. Correct.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely. Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

And that's. I'm guessing that's open to the canon always being revised and reviewed. Maybe they have an extra book or they're missing books. They're basically.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, they. They have to. They have to admit that, but they don't want to admit that point. You mean they can't have Scripture?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Exactly. So. And the problem with that, the very evident problem with that. I mean, I'm sure you already know this, but just dawned on me the other day. I mean, if Sola Scriptura is saying that the canon ultimately is the only source infallible authority, but they have to also admit that it's always being open for revision, that means their only authority is technically compromised and always open for revision.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's what I was arguing to the Baptist guy.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Okay. Yeah, I watched that debate.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. And he said. I said, oh, don't you think the canon is. If you think the canon is fallible, could it be different? And he's like, I guess so.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah. And I got one more question, if you got time for it.

[Jay Dyer]

So the word of God, that's. Hold on. Notice how silly that is with his argument that the KGV KJV is an eternal book in heaven. And then he turns around and says that the canon could be wrong.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, that's ridiculous. I mean, I didn't expect him to say that. I was hoping it was just like a misunderstanding going on. But he really does believe that.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, no, that's the Stephen. That's Stephen Anderson's cult. They teach that.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, exactly. I got one more quick question. It's a theological one. You got time for it or you

[Jay Dyer]

want to go ahead.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

This has to do with Old Testament sacrifice or what was going on in the Old Testament when they would offer up the. I think the ram or the goats. I forget, in the Orthodox mindset, in our paradigm, if. Because I used to believe in PSA and I used to always trace PSA back to the Old Testament and say, oh, you can see it in the Story of. Of Abraham and his son. You could see it in Cain and Abel. So how do. What's going on in that sacrifice?

[Jay Dyer]

In the Orthodox mindset, they're simply typological. That's it. And by the way, if you watch. Watch the stream that Cleave did with Father Stephen. Excuse me, Alex did with Father Stephen DeYoung. It's like a four hour stream where they just spent four hours on PSA. Father Stephen Young is one of the best on that topic of the animal sacrifices. So go check that stream out. Just looking. What's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, Jay Dyer, can you hear me okay?

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, I have a question for you, brother. But before I do, I just want to say God bless you, man. And thank you. It's a big part of my conversion from Roman Catholicism to Orthodoxy was your like complete dismantling of the system. I used to be comfortable with that Sam Shamoon Apostolic Generic Church, and you just made that intellectually untenable. So I just want to. I want to thank you, brother, and I want to encourage you to keep doing what you're doing. I think it's great. And my question for you, Jay, and I. Forgive me if it's a little off topic, but. So if I joined the Orthodox Church via the Ukrainian Orthodox Church under the Patriarch of Bartholomew, the Ecumenical Patriarch. Right. And you know they have beef with the Russian Church. I know that you're in the Russian Orthodox Church, but what does that mean to me? Like, as I've been Orthodox since December 2025, like, what should I. Nothing.

[Jay Dyer]

It has no effect on you until there's an official breaking of excommunication. So there's been many, many periods in the history of the church when various patriarchates were out of communion with other patriarchates and nobody held the laity accountable. The only time it would become a situation and be accountable would be if there is a giant split in the church. If the MP and other patriarchates excommunicate Bartholomew, then at that point, after the excommunication, the churches on our side would not accept the sacraments of your side. So until that happens, it's not a problem. Soul Glow. What's up, dude? By the way, here I found the patron saint of the online evangelical E apologists. This is Saint Dunning Kruger of the Holy Shofar. And of course he's got a Ruselan Godly ambition T shirt and he's got the John Hagee shofar. So for. For those of you that are evangelicals that are looking for transcendent help, you can ask for the intercession. Tell. Tell Gay P Uncut he can ask for the intercession of Saint Dunning Kruger of the Holy Shofar. What's up, man?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hello?

[Jay Dyer]

Yep. What's going on?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Jay, can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. What's on your mind?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey. Yeah, so I've been watching your stuff for a few weeks now. I'm like currently on a journey trying to figure out really what the true church is. I was raised Southern Baptist, almost kind of evangelically.

[Jay Dyer]

Me too.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah. And you know, I was looking around and all I really ever knew of was the beef between the Protestant church and perhaps maybe the Catholic Church. I always thought it was just either or with those two. I never even heard about the idea of an orthodox church that had followed tradition, that wasn't Catholic up until my mid-20s or even recently. And I'm just really curious and I want to kind of get your perspective on it. I know I can just Google it maybe. But what I guess I don't understand really because the more research I do, the more I'm seeing that a lot of this orthodoxy is rooted in real history that we can trace. And a lot of this Baptist stuff and you know, these strip mall churches don't really do the same. But what I don't understand, why. Why not just be orthodox if you're going to be Baptist and go with most of the right teachings, but then not take some of the extracurricular things from other apostles or.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, there's. There's again, there's like a million, million myriad reasons why a person might not convert. They might have family members they don't want to upset. They might have a wife, a husband that will get mad if they get into it. They might lose their income. They might have an ideological ego commitment to having a thousand Protestant scholar books that they've written. I mean, there's a million different reasons why they. They wouldn't convert.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

They've perhaps invested too much in their life. I. I guess.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Sunken sauce.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Intellectually dishonest. Having so much information available that they would perhaps refuse to even look.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's why. That's why so many people are converting. I appreciate your call is because did it takes like two seconds to go look on New Advent and see what the Canons of Nicaea teach. And guess what? They don't teach Baptist stuff. So there you go. So, so much for I'm in line with the church fathers in Athanasius at Nicaea. So let's look at a couple more Canon 2 of Nicaea says If you convert out of heathenism, things should still be done according to the church canons, the church law. Okay, slow boys, this is not talking about the Bible canon. This is church canon. There's canon law before there's Bible canon. Do you even write? Do you guys even realize that the church is working an apostolic tradition before there's even a Bible collected together? So the people that are converted from heathenism, they have to be instructed. This is the catechumenate and it says do not immediately advance them to the episcopate or the priesthood. You need to be in the church for a while before you become a priest or a bishop. That's what this is saying right here. And catechumens need a longer trial. Citing St. Paul, do not let a novice be converted because in pride he will be lifted up. How much more applicable is this to the online E apologist sphere who are all self appointed preachers and teachers. And notice the three fold office of priest, bishop. And then later in this it'll say right here in Canon 3, we forbid any bishop, priest, deacon to have women living with them that aren't mothers or sisters or wives. See that right there. Isaac, what's up? There's no Protestant churches except for maybe some Lutherans and some Anglicans that have bishop, priest, deacon right there. You can see you don't have the ecclesial structure of the church at the Council of Nica. What's up man? Isaac, hey, can you hear me? Huh?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I just had a couple of questions. Most I'm not orthodox, but I've been going to my local parish for a little over a month now and I've been able to talk with the father there about getting into catechesis and being a catechumen. And one of the things that's the most difficult for me, I come from a non denominational background, is knowing that this is the right thing to do. But I am unable to bring everyone I care and love about with me to it.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean that's just part of the, of the nature of the gospel. I mean, Jesus says I came not to bring peace, but a sword to divide one household against the household against itself, mother against father, children against parents, etc. So that's just part of it, man. And you can, you know, continue to pray for them and eventually you might win them over. Spacelift. What? What's up? By the way, do we have any evangelicals that disagree?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, can you hear me? First of all, say that Mormon faith lives. Bang. That is a fire song.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank You.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

But secondly, I just wanted to ask, what do you think about the Pope audience hall? Have you ever, like, seen it? And just what do you think about that?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, it could have been. I mean, it's obviously a bro. It's obviously a modernist style of architecture, and it does kind of look like a snake. And whether they intended that, I don't know. But that's not. Got what I'm gonna base my anti rummy Catholic papal apologetics on these kings. What's up? I'm you. Dez. Daz. King, I'm you.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Can you hear me, bro?

[Jay Dyer]

Yo, what's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, thank you for taking my call. So I want to ask a question about epistemology, if that's okay.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So I. I believe you recommended to me, like, well, not to me, but to your audience a while ago about a website, the Stanford Cycle of Philosophy Encyclopedia or something like that.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I mean, it's just a standard online philosophy encyclopedia. What about it?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, yeah, so I was working through that. There's an epistemology article on there, and epistemology goes way deeper than I initially thought. But correct me if I'm wrong, Jay, but is epistemology. Epistemology is a study of, like, what truth is. And do you have good reasons to believe in what you believe in?

[Jay Dyer]

Right, correct.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Okay. So I read. I watched a video a while ago on with this guy named Reader Paul. He has a video about Protestant epistemology. And I believe he says in his video that Protestants do not have any epistemic justification for their interpretation of Scripture. But is that completely accurate to say that they don't have any justification or they just don't have a good justification? Because a Protestant can say that. Well, I believe in the 66 books, and I have good reasons to believe in that based on, you know, X, Y and Z. But that's. That could still count as a justification, just not as a thorough one as would be us orthodox Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I don't even think. I don't think we would even grant that that is a justification, because justification typically is jtb, Justified True Belief. If you go with the classic view, which I think we typically would with some qualifications like the Gettier problem. But. So, I mean, they. They are offering a justification, but whether it is a good justification is the very thing in question.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Okay, but yeah, like I said, and I appreciate that, but they still have. It's a bad justification, but it is a justification. It would. It would be inaccurate to say that's not a justification, but it's just not a good one. Does that make sense?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, but I mean, that's the whole thing, right? I mean, I can have. If it's not a good justification, then it's really not a justification at all. That's the whole point of epistemology, as you already said, is to hammer home the good reasons for a belief. Not just any old reasons. But. Great question. I appreciate that. Tingu. What's up, Tingu?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

What's up? Hey, what's up, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

How you doing?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, if you'll let me, can I have maybe one or two minutes just to kind of give you a background story here on something?

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Okay. So, yeah, I'll try and keep it really short, but thanks to you and Jim Bob especially, you know, I've been going to liturgy for about three, four weeks now, and super thankful for that. But last Sunday, I went to my mom's church, which is a Protestant evangelical church, you know, for Mother's Day, just to kind of honor my mother. I decided, okay, I'll skip liturgy and go to her church. When I got there, though, you know, it was just all the Protestant garbage. You know, they, you know, the worship was just multiple guitars and drum kits and stuff and just.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

You know, they didn't take communion or the Eucharist or whatever you want to call it. And then I was thinking afterward, you know, I've been watching and tuning into a lot of Jim Bob stuff, and he doesn't really grant anybody a single inch when he does debates. And it was just getting me thinking. And I was like, why don't we even grant Protestants the word church? Like Ruslan and his, you know, whatever R B church. Like, why do we even grant them the word church?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, technically. Technically we don't, because if you go back to the Council of Florence, when Saint Mark of Ephesus initially was invited and thought he had high hopes for the reunion. And in that setting, he was talking about Rome and the possibility of Rome being reunited because of all the things that we had in common. However, after that, he referred to. After he saw that that wasn't going to happen. It was futile. He refers to them as a para synagogue, a heterodox entity. Now, if the Roman Catholics are, after that situation, a heterodox, non church entity, how much more are the Protestants who don't even have any semblance of the four marks of the church?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So

[Jay Dyer]

I forgot there's a couple more cannons that we want to look at here, and we're going to go to Nicaea. We're going to go to the apostolic canons. So as we move through Nicaea, we note that in Canon 4, bishops are supposed to be appointed by the local bishops in the province, right? And there's some economia for urgent necessity for other situations being possible. In this case, an emergency and whatnot has to be eventually signed off on by the metropolitan, which is the bishop of like the big city, the large central thing. Where are the metropolitan bishops of the. Amongst Protestants? Is there anything like that? I've never even heard of that. And notice, by the way, there's nothing about the Bishop of Rome confirming all the bishops in the world here. Canon 5 deals with cases of excommunication, how to deal with people excommunicated. Again, Protestants don't have that. Canon 6 is the ancient customs of the Bishop of Alexandria having a jurisdiction comparable to the Bishop of Rome, as well as Antioch having its comparable jurisdiction. And these are the three. These are three petrine seas, right? Rome, Alexandria, Antioch are the ancient Petrine seas. And this is according to what? Ecclesiastical law. Right there. See that? And then it says let the choice of the majority prevail in certain situations when there's jurisdictional squabbles amongst these bishops and bishoprics. So canon law and synodality right there, not Roman, Vatican I papalism in Canon 6. But notice, as our main point today is not about Papism, but nothing like Protestantism at all. All of those things that redeem Zoomer and Wes Hop and Ruslan and David Wood and all of these people think Gave and Ortland are the accretions are there right there at Nicaea 1. The next one is about people who were lapsed in persecution. Talks about bishops, priests and deacons again, excommunication again. Then there's another one about don't ordain people to the Pres. To the priesthood too quickly. Don't ordain people that are ignorant is another one. Now, Canon 11 is interesting because it talks about the sacrifice of the Eucharist and the prayers with the population or the congregation and the oblation, which is the Eucharistic oblation. And we're going to see, by the way, in a minute, proof of the real presence as well. Let's see, the next one is about military situation, Canon13 concerning those that are dying. The ancient canon law is still to be maintained. So notice that Nicaea, they're already maintaining earlier canon law, church law, to wit, that if a man is at the point of death, he should not be deprived of the indispensable viaticum. And that's just Eucharist at deathbed. That's your final rights. So notice that Nicaea, they're already talking about final rights. But if you're restored again to health, then he can also communicate, but in general, in prayers only in general. In the case of a dying person asking to receive the Eucharist, let the bishop, after examination, give it to him. The next one is about catechumens who fell under persecution. The next one is about bishop, priest, deacon, moving outside of their jurisdictions.

[Ruslan]

And that.

[Jay Dyer]

That can cause scandal. 16, same thing. Bishops, priests and deacons shall not go amongst all the other jurisdictions and cause problems and squabbles. Wait a minute. Where's the exception for the Bishop of Rome who has universal autocratic jurisdiction? Supposedly, Canon 17 is about usury. And clergy shouldn't invest, engage in usury. Canon 18 is about. This is a great one. Check this out. This proves real presence. It has come to the knowledge of the synod that in some districts, deacons administer the Eucharist to the priests, whereas no canon or tradition or custom permits this. They have no right to offer to them that do the offering. So the priest is the one that does the Eucharistic offering. Thus the deacon has no right to offer it to the higher, since he's the lower. And also this has been made known that certain deacons touch the Eucharist before the bishops do. Oh, interesting. That's not Protestant at all. That's the real presence. Goobers. Let all such practices go away. Let deacons remain within their own bounds. They are ministers of the bishop and they are the inferior of the presbyter. Bishop, priest, deacon, the threefold office that the Orthodox Church still has. Notice, it's not super bishop, Rome, bishop, priest, deacon. It's not the fourfold office of Vatican one. It's just bishop, priest, deacon. Now check this out. Let them that receive the Eucharist according to their order after the presbyters, and let either the bishop or the presbyter administer it. Furthermore, let not deacons sit amongst presbyters, and if they disobey this decree, they are deposed from the diaconate. Does that sound like do it yourself Bible, Baptist, Presbyterian, Emmanuel Church, theology. Does that sound like Ruslan's Rhythm and blues Church? Does that sound like rap church? Be honest. Chase. What's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

What up, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Hey.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, I got one for you. You remember, this has to do with like, Ruslan and stuff. You remember that old saying where it's like, sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me. I don't think they know about that.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, isn't Ruslan from a supposedly rough gang lifestyle background?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

No, like, seriously, I don't. I think it's like, feminism and all this enlightenment philosophy, it's just baked in like everybody's becoming a wimp.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, they're all faking gay, dude. Exactly. I think that's the root of it, is that these. These boys are soft. I mean, look, if you only care about what's true, which is the assumption that we all have about each other, right, we're all out here supposed to be submitting to what's true, why would you not even want to do a debate and to lose if you have the wrong position? If I have the wrong position? I want to lose the debate to be in the correct position, because that's what ultimately matters. Your major point is Justin Martyr. That's 150. You call that early church? Yeah, I do call that early church. Goofball. Dan, what's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yo, Jay, can you hear me? I got two questions. First, if the priest spills the Eucharist and it's on some carpet, you gotta burn that carpet.

[Jay Dyer]

They have to eat it up really quick.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Oh, like lick it up?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's what they do.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

I've seen them. I've seen it. I've seen it happen in church. Live time. Absolutely. Dragos, what's up? If they think there's particles, they might burn it. I don't know, actually. What the. I don't know exactly what the teaching on that is, but, I mean, Saint. Was it Saint John Maximovic? Somebody threw up one time and he ate the vomit because they threw up after the. The Eucharist. That's not the same thing as Margaret Mary Alakoku eating feces and vomit because she thought it was a sign of humility. What's up, man? Dragos.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, I'm new to all this stuff, but, like, what do you mean by, like, false? Like, even Amy is, like, false.

[Jay Dyer]

What I mean about what?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

What do you mean by like that? It's that evangelicalism is false. Like, what do you mean by false?

[Jay Dyer]

It's a false teaching, false religion, false gospel.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So you're saying, like, anyone who follows it is, like, not saved or.

[Jay Dyer]

I can't judge the individuals because God can still bring those people. Salvation for us is not praying the Billy Graham prayer. Salvation is. Did you persevere until the end?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So what if you've, like, you followed, like, the book to, like, exact tea, but you don't, like, follow the actual church? But you're still trying better.

[Jay Dyer]

There is no. There is no following the book to a T without the church, because the book directs you to a church.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

The.

[Jay Dyer]

But if the book tell. If the book tells you to go to the church, there's no such thing as doing it without the church. Crombopolos. What's up? But I thank you for your call. This is the whole point. With this sphere, they want Jesus without his body, so they want a headless, floating, abstract Jesus and join whatever sect you want. It doesn't. It doesn't work. This is the same problem that all, by the way, this has already happened decades ago, even in the evangelical world. So back in the day, when Billy Graham was doing all of his big stadium preaching and he actually would have people from all denominations receiving the converts that would come down and pray the sinner's prayer. I'm being serious. And it became a huge scandal because the committed Protestant evangelicals were like, why do we have this Roman Catholic guy over here? Why do we have this weird other sectarian over here receiving the converts? It makes no sense. It was a huge scandal. And there were books written back in the 90s, 80s, and 90s calling out Billy Graham as a tool of the establishment because it was just preaching Jesus and creating all these phonies. People who think that they're Christians because they. I said the sinners come down the altar, say the sinner's prayer. Why, we'll give you a hot slice of pizza if you pray to Jesus in your heart. Let football come into your heart right now, The NFL will save you. Just nonsense. And then you have billions of boomers. Not billions, but you have a giant. I don't know, let's guess. 50 million boomers because of Billy Graham that think I'm a Christian because I prayed that sinner's prayer, and I do whatever the hell I want. Don't nobody tell me nothing about Jesus. I know Jesus in my heart. Kopos, what's up, dude? It's no different. It's no different than Avery. Avery's no different than Billy Graham. The only difference is Avery's not telling emotional SAP stories like Billy Graham did. He's just debunking Muslims. Okay, but that's not what Christianity is. Christianity is not just debunking Muslims. What's up, man?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, man, thanks for having me on. I've been listening to your show for probably a little over a year now and have become a big fan. I think my first exposure to you was watching you debate Tim Gordon and the Anglican Mason guy on Tim Pool's show. But I really enjoy your content. I. I'm an Inquirer, I guess I'm kind of a. I'm kind of a slow rolling choir because I'm very spurgy about.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I just wanna.

[Jay Dyer]

It's okay.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So anyone's word for it?

[Jay Dyer]

I just want to sure.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Find it. Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

So what. That's cool. School man. What's your question?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So I, I just wanted to bring up something that I'm noticing in my own circles. So I watched. I watched your. Your debate with that Baptist King James Only guy. And I come from a Church of Christ background, so. Campbellite.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Restorationist movement. I no longer believe that that position holds any weight. I've been in that movement my whole life. So for personal reasons, it's hard to become untethered. But I just wanted to. I don't. I wanted to ask you if you know any of these guys who are orthodox converts that are putting out content from the CoC world.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm pretty sure I'm seeing it in my own structure. I appreciate that. And their answer is yes. In fact, I think Alex Soren recently debated a Church of Christ guy, one of his maybe a few weeks ago. So the answer is yes. Go watch that debate with. I don't remember the guy's name. I'm sure somebody in the chat will remember that guy's name. Yeah, here it is. Who is this guy? Aaron Gallagher. So Alex Sorin debated Aaron Gallagher, who is a Church of Christ, I guess pastor or something.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I.

[Jay Dyer]

When I hear the word pastor now, I just, I cringe now it's like a media. Just when I hear just past pastors. I'm a pastor together with 1000 pastors. We met the men in black and in the Airbnb to get disclosure for the pastors. Okay. I know all the ortho bros are eager to call in and I love you guys, but we're looking for some evangelicals today. Chris Eight Limbs, what's up, dude? Chris Eight Limbs, what's up you?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Jay, big fan. I got your book, but I up and got it on Amazon, so. My bad.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, well, you. You and Bezos once again teamed up against me.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, that's my bad. I'll get it from your website next time.

[Jay Dyer]

Cool. Dude.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I just want to say good job on these last couple weeks. You debated these two Mason guys and then you got this Baptist pastor on. On the Brink. So awesome.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's led to the whole evangelical online world just losing their losing Their minds, they're having a crack out.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

And now this week, it's David Woods. Awesome job.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. Yeah, appreciate that, guys. If you disagree, I'll go bring the head of line. If not, we're going to go into more of the cannons here. We'll notice that in Canon 18 again, we saw that the deacons are not supposed to touch the Eucharist because they don't offer the oblation. That does not sound like any Protestant church I've ever even heard of. Here's a canon about kneeling on the Lord's day. Do Protestants kneel in the churches on any day? Maybe some of the charismatics do, but. Then there's a letter anathematizing excommunicating areas. When's the last time you heard of a Protestant church? And advertising and excommunicating anybody? How about the celebration of Easter

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

and

[Jay Dyer]

the Eucharist on Easter? Oh, look at that. It is not the determination of the custom of the Jews. Low quality. What's up? Low quality. What's up, yo? Hey.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

A couple of things. First one, never stop being mean. It's really important that you do it. Helps people. I don't know why everybody thinks there's a one size fits all solution for getting the word out, but they're wrong. You're right. So appreciate it a lot. Number two, have you heard of a guy named David Solomon? He. He's a Jewish guy. Brings a lot of Jewish perspectives into things, which, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But something I noticed about one of the lectures that he's going through on the Ten Commandments right now, kind of in. If that flies in the face of the idea that the Catholics are pushing out right now of everybody secretly worshiping the one God, even Hindus, even Muslims, whatever. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

That's because they don't know that worship isn't mental ascent to a proposition.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yes. And on a rudimentary level, if you read the First Commandment, if you get into the Hebrew of it, God never denies the existence of other things out there that are being worshiped. He doesn't say, hey, you're secretly worshiping me. The commandment is don't worship anything else that is out there. It's an interesting distinction that seems to be lost on a lot of the Catholics. Because, look, it's. It's not that everything is God. It's, you know, otherwise why would he bother commanding you not to worship whatever else is out there? So that's. That's all I got for you, man. Appreciate you.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, thank You? Yeah, I think the entire argument. And by the way, a lot of Protestants agree with this argument that they just assume that worshiping God is the same thing as mental notional ascent. To quote, there's one God that's not worship. And when I brought that up, a lot of them had to kind of, oh, oops. Right when this whole debate was happening in the last year between when the Roman Catholics were all having meltdowns because they can't make Vatican II square with their stupid theology, because it doesn't. So they had to try to work really hard to make it, make it fit. I wish that there was an easily accessible list of the statements out of the Council of Rome. I usually end up having to go to, like, these trad cat sites. I don't know what the site is. So I don't know if I trust this. This looks like some kind of goofy Protestant thing. See if there's anything here. Only reason I'm going to this is I just want to show the. What the cannon is. And this is just giving me Roman Catholic websites talking about the him being a saint. Yeah, we know that. Let's see. I think. Catholicism.org has a thing on that. Or is it. I think it's Taylor Marshall's website that has that, actually. I just don't feel like getting out. Denzinger. I could. Yeah, here it is. I could get you Denzinger where it has a full, full thing, but I'm just trying to find it quickly. All right, so this is the Council of Rome, late three hundreds. And the Council of Rome is attempting here in the west to give a normative canon of Scripture. All right? Now, the Apostolic Canons, as they are called, is the canon of Scripture that's normative in the east according to the canons in the 4th century. So I want all you slow boys to listen very closely to what I'm saying. I'm not saying that either of these, quote, infallibly establishes the canon for the whole Church because they differ in small ways, okay? However, what we can see from Canon 85 of the Apostolic Canons, this refutes West Huth, by the way, that's why I'm doing this, is that the normative canon in the east, according to the Eastern canon law, the absolute canons are the norm in the 4th century in the east, because, remember, for us, the Church is decentralized, right? So we're not going to say that just because Pope Damasus is in Rome and Augustine and he agree on the Deuterocanon, that that's necessarily the universal teaching. That's the Roman Catholics reading Vatican I into the first several centuries, we're going to say that that was the norm for the west, and we're going to say the Council of Rome, and we're going to say that the apostolic canons are an example of the norm for the East. So notice, notice, in canon 85, the canon includes. Judith, the Maccabees, all three Maccabees. Sirach. See that? Wisdom. Wisdom and Siric, the Epistles of Clement and the Constitutions of Clement. Now, ultimately, those didn't get included in the final normative canon by the time of Trello and the 6th and 7th Council. But I don't have to prove that. All I'm showing you is that for the normative canonical bible of the 4th century in the east, it includes the Deuterocanon. Now, let's look at the normative canon in the west at the same time, because, remember, we believe the Church is decentralized. So the apostolic canons show us the mindset in general of the east, and we're going to look at the mindset in general under the Latin Patriarchate of the West. Likewise, the Catholic Church accepts these Old Testament books, the Book of Wisdom, the Book of Sirach, and then it lists all the ones that are not controversial, and then Judith and two Maccabees. So the only difference there is that Rome doesn't immediately accept third Maccabees, and the Eastern Church considers it as part of the canon. And then we read that the New Testament, do they include. Let's see if they include the apart. Yeah, they include the Apocalypse. By the way, they only. They include the Apocalypse here because of Athanasius arguing it, as well as the Catholic Epistles. So between the east and the west in the 4th century, what was synodally, canonically normative for the biblical canon? I know we have some slow boys that when I explain this, they don't understand the difference between canon law and the Bible canon. They get confused. Two different things. And what we saw a minute ago was canon law even preceded the Bible as normative because there was not a fixed universal canon at the time of Nicaea. And Nicaea already said, be sure and follow the previously existing canonical law. So canon 85 includes the deuterocanon for the east, the Council of Rome, and three, what was it, 80, whatever, 382, Damasus, Augustine includes the Deuterocan. There you go now again. But you. But that's not the same canon. Again, I am not saying that the canon was settled at this Time, I'm saying the normative canon for east and west included the Duro canon almost entirely. The only outlier here is St. Jerome, who submitted to Rome and included it in the Vulgate because he submitted to his patriarchy it, the Council of Rome outranks Jerome in Orthodox and Catholic ecclesiology. So on what basis are we supposed to follow Jerome's thought? If you're a Protestant, it's purely arbitrary because they don't believe anything else Jerome said. In fact, according to them, if they're consistent, Jerome is a heretic because he doesn't teach the Bible and the solas. And if you don't teach the Bible in the solas, according to the classical Reformation teachers, you're teaching a false gospel. Hey man, you're gonna go to hell. Amen, as that Baptist dude says. So again, ironically, the IFB cult is actually more consistent on this point then God logic, then David Wood, then Wes Huff, James White, Gavin Ortland, redeemed Zoomer. Because they're at least honest enough to look at this and say that there's apostasies, friend, that there's apostasy. Because this is all Catholic stuff. That's all that Catholic stuff. That's a church Antichrist, Catholic Church or bright Antichrist. I've been dealing with trail of blood IFB people since I was 18, so I'm very familiar with this stuff. Right. I just happen to forget that Stephen Anderson's cult believes that, that, that they're Sunni Baptists. I forgot that they were Sunni Baptists. I remembered it in the midst of the debate that was like, oh yeah, I forgot he believes this. He thinks the Bible is an eternal book. Which by the way, he then says that the Bible could be wrong and Paul had errors in his teaching. So it's like, so the canon could be wrong. But also the KJV is an uncreated, eternally generated Bible from God book. For like the uncreated book. Again, Sunni Baptist. This is how silly this is. So we see that the two canons here, not canon law, but the list of the canons. By the way, notice that in canon 85, canon law is beginning to determine the Bible canon. Oh, oh, oh. And guess what, Protestants, when you go to seminary, if you do and if you actually ever read any of your Protestant scholars, they're going to start talking about this stuff, the stuff that West Huff won't talk about. They're going to start talking about the apostolic canons and the Council of Rome and the canonical debates about the canon of Scripture. No Protestant pastor Or Bible teacher. I went to different Bible colleges, but they never told me this. I had to go dig this up on my own before everybody. I'm not joking about Sunni Baptists. I mean, the Muslims believe in an uncreated foot, an uncreated book. There's an eternal uncreated Quran. So they literally have the Sunni position. It's just the kjv. Nathan, what's up? Hey, man. Hey, man. What's up, man?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

What's up, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

What's on your mind?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

The divine voice is telling me to ask you questions.

[Jay Dyer]

I believe it.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah. So, okay, my first question is. So Roman Catholics, they have the, like, doctrine of, like, what is it called? Like, where their theology can change.

[Jay Dyer]

Some of them believe in the development of doctrine. Yes. Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So isn't like, economy almost like, similar to that, but just from like, Eastern Orthodox perspective?

[Jay Dyer]

No, economy is the application of canon law. It's not the dogmas of the Church. So, for example, we're not going to argue that the Bishop of Rome had a certain function in the first thousand years, but in the second millennium of Christianity, he evolved into being an autocrat. That has nothing to do with the interpretation, application of the canons. That's a dogmatic change.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Okay, but like, what about, like, the Eucharist, how it was in the Didache, it was. Was like both eaten and like, drinking separately, but now it's like together in the ladle.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the did is not. It has things that we don't adhere to. There's heterodox ideas in the dedicate. The dedicate is just an attestation to the practices of the early Church. It's very valuable, but it's not like part of the Scriptures or part of the canon. It's not canon law. It's just an early witness. I mean, you could say the same thing about Tertullian. Tertullian is a heretic, but his works are very valuable because we can see, for example, before he was a heretic, he was defending the Trinity and he wrote treatises about the Trinity in the second century. So that refutes, for example, Jake, the Muslim metaphysician, or people that say that the Trinity was created in Nicaea or all this nonsense. So again, those people are useful. Didache is useful, but they're not canon law. They're not. Again, everybody's got to get out of the mindset of the Protestant idea that. That picking and choosing this dude is somehow a better higher tier over a synod. The mind of the many, even as we saw in the canons of Nicaea trumps the mind of one. And that doesn't mean in every case. Obviously, sometimes the majority can be wrong. But typically, usually when it comes to synodality, the principle that the majority are correct holds not always. It's not infallible. Sometimes you can have a false synod that, you know, persecutes St. John Chrysostom or whatever. But normally speaking, and for example, the Orthodox Church, the bishops have regular synodal meetings to govern the church. And normally speaking, they're going to accurately assess the problems in a council and in a synod, much better than were they to just do it individually on their own. Right. And that's the model of Acts 15. All of this stuff is just the model of Acts 15. Do you guys know, I mean, all you Protestant Bible worshipers, I mean, do you Not Worship Acts 15 where it says the council decided something and they sent out the decision of the council to all the churches? That's all this is. It's like no difference. And if the same Holy Spirit's guiding the Jerusalem council of Acts 15, same Holy Spirit's guiding Council of Nicaea with Athanasius. Athanasius argues that. He says the Holy Ghost spoke at Nicaea. So look at Canon 5. This is interesting, because we're going to go over here to the Second Ecumenical Council. So this is going to trump even our local synods that we looked at a minute ago, Gangra and Laodicea, because this is the second Ecumenical Council that they perceive to not need even Rome's approval to do. Right. And it's kind of iffy. Okay. Yeah. Was it Celestine? Right. Kind of agrees. And then we don't know, and it's iffy. And then eventually they absolutely affirm it a couple centuries after. So this is 381, and this is the theology dominated by the Cappadocians. They dominate the theology of the council that condemns the Apollinarians. And what does it do? Most famously, it literally defines the official Trinitarian dogma for the universal Orthodox Catholic church. That's why Constantinople 1 is so important. And it was held and presided over by St. Melidios out of communion with Rome. Rome then retroactively says, oh, yes, we do agree with that. Okay, fine, it's ecumenical. Oh, well, then thank you for proving that the Holy Ghost can speak dogma outside of communion with Rome, undermining Vatican one. And also thank you for proving that there are saints outside of Roman communion, which you later admit of Vatican II but deny in unum sanctuary them and can taught the domino. So we see for example, at constant number one in the canons, 318 fathers assembled and they anathematized the Eunomians, the Matamaki, the Marcellians, Semi Aryans and the Paulinarians. Okay. And then we see another canon limiting how far bishops are supposed to go and not go into other bishops jurisdictions. No exemptions for the Bishop of Rome, by the way. Again, this, they don't even. They're not even worried about whether Rome accepts it or not. They're already doing the council without Rome. Now they would like to get Rome's acceptance, sure, but they're doing it and they don't care if Rome accepts this or not. And Rome was iffy and it took a long time for Rome to accept this. So. Canon 4 is important because it says in regard to the tome of the Western bishops, we receive those in Antioch who confess the Godhead of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So this is an earlier canon, presumably relating to. That's not the canon I'm looking for. Hold on, which one is it? Is this. Okay, here we go. Where's Canon 3 though? The one about Rome, New Rome. Anyway, let's go to Canon 5 because Canon 5 says for those that were that turn from heresy to Orthodoxy, those amongst the Arians, the Macedonians, the Sabatinians, the Novatians, the Cathari, the Aristori, the Quarter Decimians, the Tetrites, the Apollinarians, we receive them upon written renunciation of their, of their previous heresies to the Holy Catholic Apostolic Church of God. Does that sound ecumenist to you? Anybody? Where is the ecumenism in that? And by the way, I think this new Advent, this has a different numbering than what's in the shaft set, because in the shaft set this is Canon 7 and I'm looking for the canon, But this is the no salvation outside the Church canon, right? So notice this. It says thereupon, when they are brought into the Church, they are given Chrismation. The seal. The seal. Seal, Seal, Right. It says, you know, who have a heterodox, weird crazy baptism, Montanus. Their baptisms don't even count. They need to be baptized. These other groups, it's sufficient to chrismate, you know, means they're not even. They're anti Trinitarian. They can't be just Christmas because they never even got baptism. And that's it says all of these sects because their heresy is so extreme, they are to be received as heathens when they become Orthodox. So we make them Christians, then we make Them catechumens, and then we do the exorcism prayers and then we instruct them and catechize them and then baptize them. See that? Does that sound like redeemed zoomers? Magisterial Protestant church? Does that sound like any of these people's made up Protestant church to you? And it's supposed to be Canon 3. And I wonder if New Advent, are they being shifty here? Look at Canon 3 at new advent. It doesn't have the New Rome cannon. Of course, they're numbered differently. So let's see, This is why it's hard to find that New Rome canon, because it's numbered differently and it might not even be included here at the New Advent list. Because the Eastern canon list has the famous canon, which is the basis for canon 28 of Chalcedon, that the Bishop of Constantinople is second after Rome. Here we go. Yeah. So here's the Eastern list. Isn't that funny, that New Advent. Why does New Advent not have that on there anymore? I know, I've. I've read it on New Advent before and I've screenshotted it. That's. I wonder if they altered that. So look at the. This is just probably the Roman list. So they probably just deleted it. Here's the canons of Constantinople 1. And this is the shaft set list right here. Look at Canon 3. The Bishop of Constantinople should have the prerogative after the Bishop of Rome, because Constantinople is New Rome, right? This becomes the controversial canon, the basis for the canon 28 of Chalcedon, right? Where Leo says, I reject canon 28. And then Roman Catholics always are dishonest. They never tell you why. They act like, oh, because of papal primacy. Even though Leo says, no, it's because it violates the order of Canon 6 of Nicaea 1. Right? Because it's Rome, Alexandria, Antioch. And for Leo's argument was that if you make Constantinople second after Rome, it's not fair to Alexandria and Antioch, nothing to do with Vatican one papal supremacy. So they just lie about what it was actually about. But notice that the New Advent, the Roman Catholic website doesn't even have Canon 3 even listed anymore. But the shaft set, which is based on presumably the Eastern listing of the canon, puts Constantinople as number two. Not just at Chalcedon, but at Constantinople one. That's the reason why at Chalcedon they just inserted it because they were like, well, it was already at the previous ecumenical Council, which Rome had not officially, really totally accepted yet. Right? So there you go. But again, to back to the Point of the final canon of Constantinople 1. Does that sound at all like anything Protestant? Will, what's up, man?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, James. Yeah, hey, thanks for having me on. I wanted to tell you a quick little thing. I think you'd. You'd be proud of me. I. I was actually having a debate with my evangelical coworkers, and he was telling me that, well, I'm a Catholic. For reference, he was telling me that, you know, praying to Mary and the saints is not biblical. And instead of spending, you know, like, 14 hours trying to explain to them that it was, I used a kind of transcendental argument. And I was like, well, if you're using the Bible as your authority, then you would need to give me a justification for why that's the case, you know? Yeah. And he just. He couldn't give me an answer.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, hey, that's good. But, I mean, you know, transcendental arguments don't really work in the context of Roman Catholic, you know, classical foundationalist epistemology. So I would say you need to become Orthodox. Alex, what's up? One thing I want to say, too, about people making a big stink about this. How come you didn't call God logic or these people out till now you redid streams with before? Because they didn't attack Orthodox until now. Duh. What do you think? What's up, man? Alex, you want to meet?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, sorry, my bad. How's it going?

[Jay Dyer]

Good. What's on your mind?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, I just wanted to say I. I guess you were a big reason why I started attending liturgy. Has been going for about 26 months now. About to become a catechumen.

[Jay Dyer]

Cool.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I was actually one of my buddies, he's, you know, thinking about becoming Catholic, and I was kind of talking about. And, you know, kind of the craziness that's under the hood. Most people don't even realize that our Catholic. You know, some of the stuff you pointed out with the histrionic female saints and such, and it really came down to, like, I don't. I genuinely don't understand the appeal of Roman Catholicism unless you want the social community or you want to larp as a crusader, which is no longer the case. I think when you break it down, it's. I. I don't know. I just can't understand the. The appeal behind it at all once you. Once you actually look under the hood.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the appeal is the way that the pop apologists sell it. And I know because I fell for the same sales pitch when I was 21 and became a Roman Catholic. Right. I think, oh, the Pope solves these issues. We don't have division anymore because he solves the issues and now we have certitude for the dogmas and on and on. And then when you actually go into the world of Roman Catholicism and you see, because you think that it's going to be this church that you've read about in the Church Fathers, right, this glorious grand Church militant, like the Middle Ages, and I'm going to be like Thomas Aquinas and I was sitting a scripture scriptorium and just write with a quill pen and create theology treatise. And it's not like that at all. That's not the reality. What's up to our boy Cleave? What's up, dog? About to play some of you tonight. Cleave talking to me as we cover Cleave. What's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

What's up? What's going on, Jake, thanks for having me on.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, sir.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, so I wanted to. I wanted to chime in on something that I. I realized. A lot of these guys that have these massive platforms that are basically just a humanist Christianity, it's nondescript, non denominational, whatever the case may be, they're just appealing to the most broad audience they can. These guys are really getting nervous about the growth of Orthodoxy.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So it seems like their strategy is just to. Well, one, they want to avoid the debates. So what they do is when they critique Orthodoxy, they do it under this dog whistle of ortho broism. Right. So they want to sow division amongst all ranks.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

But they also want to critique Christ's Church in a way that doesn't cause them to lose their following. So it's just this kind of shady, subversive way for them to attack the Church and not have to engage in debates.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

And then what they'll simultaneously do is they'll take their massive platforms and they will promote these other more rabid, more radical, anti orthodox guys like jp. That way they don't have to do any debate. They can just deflect it all to them.

[Jay Dyer]

That's very perceptive. That's very perceptive. That's very perceptive about the cunning strategy that they're employing. I didn't even notice that. But that's actually a good point. Rather than saying that they just disagree with orthodox Christianity, it's, oh, it's the ortho bros that I hate. Right. And Sam Shamoon did the exact same thing too, by the way. He said, you know, I hope that the ortho bros die. Remember when He. When he prayed that the ortho bros would die, and people were defending it, they were like, he's not talking about Orthodox. He's just about ortho bros. It's like, so they're. Well, they're Orthodox. What are you talking about?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, exactly. And what do they mean when they talk about Orthodox? They're talking about anybody who is not an ecumenist. So anybody who holds to orthodox teaching, basically.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely. I do want to play some of Cleave, as we have Cleave here, but I do. Before we do that, I want to see if anyone disagrees because we've had a lot of questioners and, and comments, which is fine, but we've got a full house. We've got 10 people in. In the line here. I want you to do me an emoji. If you disagree, you go to the headline. Any disagreers? Any Protestant evangelical? People that don't like icons, they don't like mysteries, the Eucharist, whatever. Do an emoji and I will bring you up. None of y'. All. Are you serious? Out of all 10 of Y', all, nobody disagrees? Come on now. How can we have no evangelicals for two days straight calling in. Except for that one Noah, dude, he was the only one. Nobody. I guess I'm just cooked when it comes to debate. Nobody else will debate. Okay, here we go. Devin. Devin. What's up, dude?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So this might be slightly deceptive because I agree with you with almost everything. And I'm. I'm not quite Protestant any longer.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

But I'm not. I'm not Orthodox anymore yet either. But a huge issue I'm having is. And I guess, like I said, this might be deceptive. It's something that I don't disagree is that I have a serious struggle with looking at seeing Mary as a perpetual virgin. And that was. She was sinless. And like I said, this could just purely be from the. The, you know, standpoint that I grew up in a Protestant church and that's all I've been taught. But that's something I. Like I said, I am extremely struggling with that idea.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, well, I would say read Jerome's little treatise about the perpetual virginity. It's a classic. It's still good. And then watch the video that I did called a veneration of St. Mary, which is like a 40 minute, just arguing from the Bible about Mary. Those are classic there. Patristic ptsd. What's up, dog? I mean, I remember when I was struggling with that too. When I was Protestant, I was getting into Roman Catholic theology. And once I, as soon as I read Jerome street, just, I was like, oh, yeah, okay. And then the typology I think is a good argument too. Patristic. Ptsd, what's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey guys, thanks for having me on. Yo, long time listener. You know, Infowars. I think I recognize you from that, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Long before I knew you did like apologetics and stuff. But yeah, I myself, I came from like a, like my stepdad was like a Pentecostal preacher, but the rest of my family was like, you know, Baptist non denominational type, you know, so I come from that, you know, reformer background. And it wasn't until like I started getting into apologetics, like online I ran into some orthodox people and, you know, it's like they had me inquiring and questioning, you know, a lot of things that I never really thought to ask myself, you know, when it comes to like traditions and just the historicity of the church, the theology and things like that. And you know, it's no wonder, like when we have such good apologetics for orthodoxy, you know, that's what they say, Ortho bros, but it's just Orthodox Christians online, you know what I mean? Like, there's a lot of fake accounts and things like that. Sure. But, you know, for the most part we have really good apologetics. Like, I have a group of Orthodox buddies on here. We have a channel called the Great schismatics of the 21st century. You know, we just talk with anybody on there. So, you know, and it comes to the question, there's a lot of people, like in the Baptist sphere, you know, not wanting to have these debates because, you know, they, they don't really have a grounding for, you know, a basis for all the things that they're arguing. You know, it's just comes back to their own traditions or their own preferences.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, that's. Right. Well, that's why I think, you know, seems like it would be incumbent upon the representatives from that group, like Gavin Ortland, to do some sort of public debate. I wonder if my Swan bitcoin link has expired because it looks like it's not going to the referral link. But I didn't want to remind you guys that if you want to get started with bitcoin, you can get started via Swan Bitcoin. And of course, bitcoin is kind of steadily creeping up of late. Of course we expected that, even though we did have a. We're back in the bear market. And if you Want to get started with support supporting me through bitcoin. This is my bitcoin wallet right here. We're gonna do a little bit of rougel on here, a little bit of monies, talking a little bit of money here. We are big promoters of what I believe is ethical money. And if you didn't see my 30, what was it? We did a podcast like 40 Minute Case for Man, I'm getting memed like crazy out here today. Look. And this is by the way, reminder of who does God logic send the converts out of Islam to synagogues, messianic synagogues where they let Ruslan preached. That's ruled over by some larping Mexican dude, Rabbi Eduardo. Okay, whatever, dude. Well, I forgot what I was going to pull up here. Thank you. Appreciate that. Yeah, just put over there. I forgot what I was. What I was even doing. We're talking about. Oh, the bitcoin interview. That's what it was. I forgot that I shared this interview and I kind of of. There was so much stuff going on, I kind of forgot about it. But shout out to bitcoin news and the guy that runs bitcoin news, which is a pretty. I think they have a pretty good sized audience. He became orthodox. So the guy that runs bitcoin news is now an ortho pro, an evil ortho bro. And we had a good conversation. Cool, dude. And I've already. This is already like 50 posts down because everything's been so crazy the past few days. By the way, here is Sheikh Imam Jonathan Shelley. IBN Shelley right here. Check out Ibn Shelley. That was a good one. But I do want to give you guys the link to this only because I think it came out as a really solid 30 minute case for Bitcoin. And then addressing all of the usual fud. Right. I mean bitcoin apologetics is like the same as orthodox apologetics. I don't mean literally in terms of what's important, but I mean it's the exact same. Like everybody just repeats the same fud and then you end up, good grief, I'm never going to find it. And of course, bookmarks never doesn't even work. Let's try the bookmarks. Never works. I think I did a pretty good job dispelling the usual boomer fudge that you get. Yeah, here it is right here. 63, 000 views.

[Commercial Announcer]

Wow.

[Jay Dyer]

So everybody should peep this right here. What's the ethical case for bitcoin? There you go. Ethical money. Johnny. Bitcoin. Jay holds the satoshi wallet. I wouldn't be asking for super chats if I had the satoshi wallet dog. But you can support my. My little Satoshi wallet right here if you want to donate via btc. All right, let's get back to. I'll reshare this because this was a good inter. Go back to the calls. Who's next?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Bird.

[Jay Dyer]

What's up,

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Bird?

[Jay Dyer]

What's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, just a quick point. Cleave was streaming about a Catholic church that combined blessing of the animals with a mass in Germany and some of the people gave the communion to their dogs.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, and I saw that

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

it goes to the. The previous caller's question about changes in the Eucharist. It's like, it seems like the Orthodox Church responds pretty well and pretty flexibly to abuses when necessary. And I appreciate that, like, you know, as something that. That changed the way the Eucharist was delivered. It's like you can tell why when you start to hear the horror stories of.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I mean, I mean, they've even done countless polls. I remember reading all those polls when I was a Roman Catholic trad cat that belief in the real presence amongst normative Roman Catholics was like down to like 30% at some point. I don't know what it is now, but I still have all my tricat. But this entire shelf, top two shelves, are all the trad cat books. So I have like Attila Gomares, Michael Davies, all of that stuff. I read all those books and all the set of accounts books too. And like all of them lament the fact that, hey, how come after Vatican II belief in the real presence went from like 90% to 20%? It's like, it's. I don't remember the exact numbers. It was something crazy like that winged Penny, what's up? Yeah, it's because when you revolutionize the church as Vatican II did by protestantizing the liturgy, obviously people have then the same willy nilly disrespectful attitude. They lose the reverence because they don't believe in it in the. I mean, if the entire service is not reverent, why would you believe in the real presence? It's. It's kind of obvious. Coach, what's up? And yes, I did offer because I know they're not gonna. I, I can just basically freely offer everyone a the world of formal debate now knowing that I have nothing to worry about, nothing to prepare for because no one will do it. So it does mean no damage or disservice or like, I don't get nervous because I can just say, here's a offer for public formal debate with West Hoff. David Wood. God Logic, Gavin Orland, IP Frank, tk Mike Winger. And people said. How come you didn't tag Mike Winger? Because he, he blocked me a long time ago. So no point. You can't tag people. I don't think they blocked you. Codes. Pill. What's up?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

What's up, Jay? I. I donated to David Wood when he was in fear about the Muslims and all this stuff. And I, I came on here since they're too cowardly to argue against our positions. By the way, I'm Orthodox, but I have a few arguments to completely destroy your positions. I think Jude and Esther should be the only books in the Bible because it feels like it. I'm also very soft on the inside and I have a lisp. So that means that my heart's been changed.

[Jay Dyer]

That means your heart's in the right place. Right?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Finally. Right. Also in Thessaloniki, it's really like archaeology. We actually found bass drums and like bass guitars and like all kinds of stuff that we dug up over there. So like, that's how I know it's Protestant.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you know, you just heard it, guys. You finally heard Dyer get crushed in a debate. Coach. Christ. Pill crushed him. Did you guys see it? It was epic. By the way, did you guys catch when the Baptist guy thought that Orthodox used the wafers? He was like, oh, no. What about your wafers? We don't use wafers, dude. Leon. What's up,

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Jay? What's up, big dog?

[Jay Dyer]

Hey, what's on your mind?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

So my wife and I recently moved to a new house and we moved near a Catholic church. One thing I've noticed is Catholics, like love putting statues outside. And I. We're new to Orthodoxy. I haven't noticed many statues in Orthodoxy, if there's any at all.

[Jay Dyer]

I was wondering what the.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

The reason is why there's so many Catholics and they. Why they love statues and is it pagan or what is it? No.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I just think that over time because. Because Rome never accepted the theology of the seventh Ecumenical Council. Basically they just accepted verbal with verbal credence. Yes. We affirm that you can have images and so that kind of let them run crazy with what is and isn't appropriate it. But the seventh Ecumenical Council actually has a pretty fleshed out theology of what's appropriate in the liturgy. Right. And since Rome didn't accept really the theology, they just kind of nominally give acceptance to the Icon Council, quote unquote. And of course, they don't have any idea about what the council of 843is, which is a reaffirmation of the victory triumph of Orthodoxy over the iconic class, which by the way, has even more clearer theology about iconography. They don't have that council. They don't accept it. So although ironically, uniates do celebrate the triumph of Orthodoxy. Again, another bunch of non stuff that makes no sense in the Roman Catholic world because it's about the papacy, it's not about the right theology. So I made a video that would be very applicable to what you're talking about and would help. It's called how iconic refute Roman Catholicism. Yes, you heard me right. How could icons refute Rome? Well, precisely because Rome doesn't adhere to the actual theology of the seventh Ecumenical Council. It becomes a situation where you're correct, you can kind of go crazy with it. And you can paint giant, giant bodies with tiny pee pees all over the churches, which makes absolutely no sense to anybody orthodox. I mean, and I've been to Rome, I've been to the Vatican, I've seen you go to Rome. There's basically a Catholic church every 20ft, right? So you could never even see all of the Catholic papal churches in Rome. But you don't have to go far to see a thousand fat boobies, booties and pee pees in your face everywhere. Now why is that? No orthodox church has giant chunky chicks and dudes with serpents biting their wee wees and big old fat boobies bouncing everywhere in the church. And that's because they don't believe in the theology of the seventh Day Critical Council. By the way, I remember when I brought this argument up long time ago, and classical theist, he went crazy over this. This is like probably 2018 or 19 when I was starting to make this argument. And another book, actually that's pretty good just on this topic, is Michael Hoffman's book Occult Renaissance Church of Rome. Because Hoffman goes to Latin Mass, at least, last I heard. I don't know if he still does or not, but he, he actually figured out, even though he's not orthodox, all of the stuff that we criticize about the second millennium of the papacy, like the Renaissance papacy, Borgia, Medici, all that stuff, like he noticed all that. He's like, wait a minute. Ecumenism actually begins with the perennialism of the Renaissance theologians. Pico della Mirandola, all those characters, that's where ecumenism actually begins to seep into Rome. And you can see it in the aesthetics. It's not the only argument he makes. It's like an 800 page book. But this is one of the argument that he makes. He says that you can see in the aesthetics of the papal apartments, they have giant reliefs and paintings to Isis. Literally, to Isis. Now, we're not prudes. So I don't really care outside of the context of the church if somebody has. Because, I mean, I'm not tempted to lust with some big old fat chick out of the Renaissance on a wall when I'm going to the bathroom. That doesn't make me lust. But so I don't think it's outside of the church. I don't think there's. Is a huge deal. And if an orthodox person had a statue of, you know, they used to have statues of the emperor, so they would have a statue of Emperor Constantine or Theodosia. There's. I don't think there's nothing wrong with that. And no, I'm not saying, oh, therefore I love the statue of Trump. That's not what I'm saying. So it's not statuary that's the problem. It's whether that's appropriate within the context of the liturgy and whether or not within the church, within the context of the actual, you know, altar area and all that. Does it make sense to have giant fat chicks with their ass hanging out? No, it doesn't. And that to me is like another kind of hello. Rome doesn't actually follow ecumenical councils. This is so obvious. If you read the seventh council and the 843 triumph of orthodoxy Council, you're like, the Roman doesn't believe any of this. So their belief, their belief is not iconography, it's just religious art. There's nothing wrong. And they kind of see it all as, quote, sacred art or religious art. That's not what icons are. They're means of, of grace. They're, they're sacramental. They're not just religious art any more than the Bible is like a mere religious book. No, it's the book, right. And the icons are not just religious art, they're windows into heaven. Anyway. Nicholas, what's up, man?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Hey, Jay, can you hear me? Huh? Okay. So I became a catechumen, I think February of this year. And I've been in the church for, I think about six months. And I thought, I mean, I thank you for, you know, helping me come to Orthodoxy because I was like, lost before. And, you know, I thank you very much for, like, having all these arguments against, like, all this bs, you know, the Protestants and Catholicism, because I was raised Roman Catholic all my life, and it's really cool to even go because I'm going to an OCA church But it's really cool that my priest, he recommends you as a good person to watch for theology and everything.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

I just wanted to say like thank you and everything for, you know, helping me find truth.

[Jay Dyer]

Appreciate that. Is that all that's on your mind right now?

[Caller 1 (Orthodox Convert/Supporter)]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. Let's see if we can find this doozy here. This is a great one. This is Ephesus Epistle of Cyril Tuna storius with the anathemas. Let's see if we can find the whole letter because you're going to find out that no Protestants actually at all believe the Council of Ephesus. This is one of my favorites by the way this actually back in the 2010s this actually converted a lot of Calvinists even before I was converted to Orthodoxy because I almost became orthodox 2007 but in the 2010s we would have this argument and this alone.