Pt 1 HEATED DEBATES! CRASHOUT CONTINUES! DAILY WIRE, CHOLO CHURCH, JAY ON PIERS MORGAN!

Summary

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Jay'sAnalysis – "Pt 1 HEATED DEBATES! CRASHOUT CONTINUES! DAILY WIRE, CHOLO CHURCH, JAY ON PIERS MORGAN!"

Host: Jay Dyer
Date: May 18, 2026

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Episode Overview

This episode delivers a fiery mix of debates, satirical jabs, and theological polemics as Jay Dyer hosts an open forum tackling the latest feud in online Christian apologetics—focusing on the rise (and crash-out) of evangelical, Protestant, and parachurch "grifters." Jay unpacks criticism lobbed at Orthodoxy from evangelical personalities like Ruslan and David Wood, discusses his experience on the Piers Morgan panel, and repeatedly challenges the “churchless apologetics” trend. Loaded with mockery, inside jokes, musical interludes, and heated caller exchanges, the show exposes the friction between Orthodox Christian apologetics and large-scale evangelical influencers, all with Jay’s trademark acerbic wit.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Core Theme: Debate Culture, Churchless Apologetics, & Grifter Callouts

• Jay deconstructs the current evangelical backlash against Orthodox apologists, particularly around accusations of uncharitable debate tactics and "toxic" discourse.
• Major tension revolves around figures like God Logic (Avery), Ruslan, and David Wood, and their defense of parachurch “mere Christianity” over historic Orthodoxy.
• Jay insists that a historical, sacramental Church is non-negotiable: “There is no Jesus without church... It's fraudulent.” (58:08)

2. On Debate & Its Theological Necessity

• Jay pushes back on the idea that debate is inherently divisive, citing biblical precedent and the conversion of thousands through open debates (16:38 – 19:04).
• “How are debates bad when it brings so many people to our position?... Paul vigorously debated.” (18:54)
• Debates are presented as vehicles for truth, exposing theological errors and converting seekers.

3. Satire of Prostestant/Evangelical Influencers (“Grifters”)

• Jay lampoons influencers who monetize faith by prioritizing trendiness, clout, and followers over theological substance.
  • Memorable musical skits parodying the “grind” and egocentrism of evangelical online personalities (02:01–04:31).
  • “How do I monetize these people?” becomes a recurring, sarcastic refrain lampooning social media ministry models (03:20, 119:46).
• Jay maintains that many controversies are orchestrated for drama and business: “Business church” and the Peter Drucker model are names for this trend (143:42+).

4. “Churchless” Christianity Critique

• Jay systematically challenges the biblical and historical legitimacy of churchless/personal "just Jesus" Christianity:
  • “Can you name one churchless apologist for the first post-apostolic millennium? ...There’s not one.” (28:19)
  • Orthodox theology hinges on the sacramental, visible, apostolic church—not on isolated professions or online ministers.

5. Exposing Double Standards and Online Behavior

• Jay calls out accusations of rudeness or “toxicity” as distractions from substantive issues:
  • “Apparently the only grounds whenever you can make a criticism of a person is just are they nice or not? That’s all that matters.” (15:32)
• Hypocrisy highlighted—Protestant critics are shown to adopt similar, if not worse, online conduct and fall into moralistic performativity.

6. Refuting Naturalism & Defending Miracles

• Robust exchange with a caller denying the virgin birth, resulting in a logic and worldview debate (35:42–46:35).
  • “The argument is proven by the transcendental argument, which you don’t even understand...” (46:00)
• Jay underlines that Christianity presupposes miracles, challenging atheistic/naturalistic epistemology.

7. The Ruslan & Evangelical Drama

• Jay details personal interactions with Ruslan, calling out his evasiveness and double standards regarding Orthodox engagement (59:03–63:23).
• Lampoons ‘rap church’ and other niche, trendy Protestant models as “fake and gay”—a pointed critique of seeker-sensitive, market-driven ecclesiology (84:20).

8. Protestant Fragmentation & Church History

• Evidence marshaled from the Nicene Creed and church fathers to demonstrate that ancient Christianity was neither Protestant nor pluralistic:
  • “...from Nicaea all the way...we profess one holy catholic apostolic church. That means that it’s not evangelical, it’s not a Protestant, and it’s not ecumenist.” (34:50)
• Protests their constant assertion of “mere Christianity” is refuted both historically and doctrinally.

9. Fallacy of Guilt by Association

• Repeatedly Jay, Andrew, and others dismantle the “guilt by association” tactic used by online rivals (agreeing with a Muslim on one point ≠ secret alliance):
  • “Every academic is supposed to know that it’s a fallacy to say that to agree with a person’s proposition means you accept their whole worldview.” (147:50)

10. Callers’ Perspectives & Additional Critiques

• Protestant, ex-Muslim, and Orthodox callers challenge and add nuance regarding church authority, conversion experience, and contemporary evangelical trends (47:10, 55:36, 57:35).
• Discussion of why so many Russians in the U.S. become Baptists (48:36: “propaganda from Western soft power via Evangelical Baptist missionaries”).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Jay on Churchless Apologetics

  • “There is no churchless apologetic...Show me one apologist in the first thousand years of Christianity...It doesn’t exist.” (93:29)

• Jay (satirical, on evangelical grifting)

  • “I need seven figures. I need seven figures. Bro, I got the following...How do I monetize these people?” (119:31)

• On the Orthodox Advantage

  • “We are equal opportunity offenders...We debate everyone...Atheists, Muslims, cult leaders, Roman Catholics.” (155:47)
  • “If you can prove mere Christianity, why can’t you come and debate it? ...It doesn’t exist.” (147:50)

• On Niceness vs. Truth

  • “Apparently the only grounds whenever you can make a criticism of a person is just are they nice or not?” (15:32)

• About Protestant/Evangelical “meltdowns”

  • “The smarter people amongst their audience is all going to see this...We have a tremendous Achilles heel here. Why are we not addressing the theology, the church history, the Bible claims here?” (105:04)

• On the “Butt Buddy” Church Modernization

  • “Gone are those days...nowadays, the mere offer of a debate is a meltdown, freak-out, pearl clutch extravaganza. The evangelicals are the softest goofballs in the world, and that’s why their churches are all becoming Skittles. They’re all butt buddies.” (19:14)

• On Guilt by Association Fallacy

  • “If I agree with the Pythagorean theorem when the math professor says it, then I’m now an atheist?...Everyone’s been calling out the left ... the left supports Islam...It’s guilt by association when everybody else does it, but here...” (152:20–153:12)

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Key Timestamps

• [01:18] - Commentary: Occult symbolism, moral destabilization in society.
• [02:01–04:31] - Satirical musical interlude about grifting and social media ministry monetization.
• [13:01] - Jay launches the open forum: “The Protestants are still melting down. It’s crash-out mode.”
• [15:19] - Piers Morgan roast anecdote, critique of “niceness” as the only standard.
• [18:54] - On the necessity and historicity of debate for evangelization.
• [28:19] - Scorching challenge: “Name me a churchless apologist from the 1st–10th century.”
• [35:42–46:35] - Jay debates naturalism vs. miracles—denial of the virgin birth, logic, and epistemology.
• [55:36] - Callers struggle with basic ecclesiological questions; Jay exposes lack of Protestant knowledge.
• [59:03–63:23] - Inside story: Ruslan backstory, online polemics, and apologetic strategies.
• [84:20] - “Rap Church,” business church model, Drucker, and the critique of faddish Protestantism.
• [93:29] - Crucial summary: “There is no churchless apologetic...”
• [105:04] - The significance of the online “hubbub”; why these debates matter for discerning listeners.
• [119:31–119:46] - Jay’s parody of big social media pastors: “I need seven figures...How do I monetize these people?”
• [143:42+] - On Peter Drucker, church as business, the origins of “least common denominator” Christianity.
• [147:50] - Jay on the absurdity of guilt by association.
• [152:00] - Jay explains the logic train of the debate, exposing repeated fallacies and calling out for a proper, formal debate.

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Episode Structure & Tone

• Format: Open forum with frequent comedic asides, impersonations, and musical spoofs.
• Tone: Sarcastic, blunt, polemical, occasionally coarse—consistent with Jay Dyer’s online persona.
• Engagement: Active audience participation by callers; sharp exchanges and live reactions.

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Summary for Listeners

If you missed this episode, you missed a dense, entertaining, and polemical exploration of why Jay Dyer thinks Orthodox Christianity stands alone in a sea of Protestant and parachurch confusion. He calls for historic, sacramental Christianity, takes evangelical grifters to task for their business-model approach, and refuses to retreat from the debate culture frequently maligned by his critics. Whether you love or loathe his tone, you’ll find sharp analysis, memorable rants, and a clear defense: Christianity requires the unified, visible Church—anything less is a modern innovation, and, ultimately, "fake and gay."

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Transcript

[Jay Dyer]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller/Viewer]

By the late 1970s, occult symbolism had become commercially marketable. Many Americans increasingly felt evil itself was becoming aesthetic in many ways. Sexual revolution, moral destabilization. American society experienced normalization of pornography during the seventies. Weakening of sexual taboos.

[Jay Dyer]

The rise of divorce.

[Caller/Viewer]

I need seven figures. I need seven figures I need seven

[Jay Dyer]

figures,

[Caller/Viewer]

bro I got the following I got 28, 000. I got 200000 on tick tock how do I monetize these people? You know what I mean?

[Jay Dyer]

How do I monetize these people?

[Caller/Viewer]

I like like shoes how do I build a business? I don't really care about how many followers I have from an oriental to

[Jay Dyer]

a boring rental wigger I'm Ruselan and I'm a boost these Protestants for every D buy my merch this my ministry, my church I'm blessing God oh JD please don't slay me I've been saving for a yacht Every itty bitty whoopi got me fascinated Protecting my pride it's my duty like Mufasa baby my testimony get me money Better watch a wager I'll be back for more super chats like I'm SCHW I need monetize them so fight Christians I need some money from them that's my mission and if I'm coming up against real Christians I run like hell not to take an L, A, J Don't make me play myself I'm heretic for the dinner bell this my meal ticket Please don't make me fail Please, please, please, please, please

[Caller/Viewer]

Bro I got the following I got 28, 000 I got 200000 on TikTok how do I monetize these people? You know what I mean?

[Jay Dyer]

How do I monetize trend?

[Caller/Viewer]

I like shoes how do I build a business? I don't really care about how I need 7 figures I need 7 figures I need 7 Figures Bro I got the following I got 28000 I got 200000 on tick tock how do I monetize these people? You know what I mean?

[Jay Dyer]

How do I monetize these people?

[Caller/Viewer]

I like money and I How do I build a business?

[Jay Dyer]

I don't really care about how many followers I have from an oriental to a boring rental wigger I'm Ruslan and I'm a boosties proudest things for every dime Buy my merch this my ministry, my church I'm blessing God oh JD please don't slay me I've been saving for a yacht Every itty bitty whoopi got me fascinated Protecting my pride it's my duty Like Mufasa baby my testimony get me money better watch a wigger I'll be back for more super chats like I'm Schwarzenegger I need to monetize so I fight Christians I need some money from them that's my mission and if I'm coming up against real Christians I run like hell not to take an L, A J Don't make me play myself I'm here ticking for the dinner bell this my meal ticket Please don't make me fail Please, please, please,

[Caller/Viewer]

please bro I got the following I got 28,000 I got 200,000 on TikTok how do I monetize these people? You know what I mean?

[Jay Dyer]

How do I monetize these people?

[Caller/Viewer]

I I like shoes how do I build a business? I don't really care about how many followers I have I need 7 figures I need 7 figures I need 7 Figures I just have f you money

[Jay Dyer]

Gay space brother Gay space brother Won't you come down from a bone high Gay space brother Gay space brother Won't you come down from my bone high and touch my cheeks? Touch my glutes from on high Touch my glutes from on high in the sky Gay space brother Won't you come down and slap them cheeks? Can I get up slap on the cheek yeah Can I get up slap on the butt cheek yeah Gay space brothers he gonna come down and find you Cause I'm gay space brother Come down from the mountain high Said gay Space brother. Your reasons I yolk into your gay space brother. You gonna clap them cheeks like can you name anybody after the atom of the apostles that taught your cult view? Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's who? Harriet Tubman's whole family. Idiot. From Africa. From the Ashanti tribe. When they came over here, they had their tradition of knowing they were Israelites. Up until this day, if you allow me to finish, you would have heard so I know they like to believe that we didn't know that we was Israelites, but we knew that we were Israelites. Coming off of them ships. Oral tradition. Coming off the slave ships. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe.

[Caller/Viewer]

Taking on them slave ships.

[Jay Dyer]

I can't help it if academia doesn't respect. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe.

[David Wood]

Take it on slave ships.

[Jay Dyer]

Take it on them slave ships. Now I will ask you a question. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Harriet Tubman's whole family. Idiot. Because he thinks that Harriet Tubman has a tradition of superstition that is the basis for his cults historical lineage. You idiot. Harriet, stop yapping and let me answer your dumbass question. So you won't shut up. So there's not. I know you're not talking about somebody shutting up. I know you not talking. Now this idiot thinks that the word gentiles there means Israel. Because the word nation or gentile can also refer to Israel. Because it just means nation, you idiot. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe. Take it on Chariot. Tubman's family. I can't help it if academia doesn't respect. From the Yoruba tribe, the Igbo tribe, the Ashanti tribe.

[Andrew]

Take it on them slave shit.

[Jay Dyer]

Take it on them slave shit. Now I will ask you a question. Shut your mouth. You don't have to talk during my time. I didn't talk during your time. He's the most ignorant white man. Is this where we could just disrespect and call each other names? You not understand grammar when you look up Valentine. It's Valentine, you idiot. Iranius. How do you say his name, you idiot? The ad homs. The consistent Harriet Tubman's the mocking my voice. There's only one professional here. You're a liar. I asked you for the history of your church.

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[Jay Dyer]

The engine is starting. Hope you're ready. Oh, yeah.

[Caller/Viewer]

Time.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a very tone body.

[Caller/Viewer]

He looks good. He looks good.

[Jay Dyer]

Mormon space flies

[Caller/Viewer]

moment face wide.

[Jay Dyer]

Basement, basement, basement. Magic face under waist. Magic underwear fitting tight. Magic underwear is feeling right.

[Caller/Viewer]

Moment space Wild

[Jay Dyer]

moment space. Right there.

[Caller/Viewer]

Let's create.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a very toe body.

[Caller/Viewer]

He looks good. He looks good. He looks good. He looks good. Space.

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[Caller/Viewer]

Space.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, welcome, everybody. It's another open forum. The protestants are still melting down. It's crash out mode. Full alert. Full alert. Emergency mode. Call in the banksters to help get some banking and some usury behind these protestants. Alert. Red alert. Emergency. There's only one way that can bring this world together that begins with you. But where it begins with you, not you.

[Caller/Viewer]

Sa.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm the only legitimate wigger emperor of wigsanthium. And I debated that with Piers Morgan today. And I'm gonna let you know, Piers Morgan did not fare well in that debate. The debate was about whether or not the n word can be said. And I switched it up. I said, y' all are all talking about the nq, the in question, and we're all ignoring the elephant in the room, the w question of the wigger question. As soon as we normalize wigsanthium wigger

[Caller/Viewer]

dumb

[Jay Dyer]

and proper free speech. We shall all be free, my friends. We shall all be free, my friends. We had a panel of Me and three comedians. And I say comedians because Dave Smith is a comedian. Another man I was not familiar with said he was a comedian. And then I still another person named Emily Saves America. One of the MAGA Griff girls. And they were supposed to be a roast. Okay. And her roast of the panel was that nobody on the panel was funny, even though I was the dude that made the whole panel laugh like four times. Watch for yourself. And then at the end when I'm about to do my roast joke, I get cut off because I said Emily Saves America. More like Emily Saves money. Least funniest Jewish comedienne in America. That got zinged. I got my zinger. Zinged. It got cut off. Dude. Robbed again on a roast. Piers Morgan asked us to roast and I had a great roast on the spot, by the way. Just out of nowhere. Yeah, apparently the only grounds whenever you can make a criticism of a person is just are they nice or not? That's all that matters. It's just. Yeah, but are they nice? I mean, I'm sure plenty of the Nestorians and Aryans were nice. I guess we can't have any criticisms. There's no. No critiques. Trying to think if I met a nice Muslim, Nafur Nazim Gafor. Remember the first sort of Muslim debate I had? Nazim Gafur. You can still find that one. That was the first one and that was more of a back and forth. Wasn't a formal debate. He was a really nice dude. Just a super chill, nice Muslim guy. I guess I can't criticize him. Even though throughout the debate I just talked about how I thought his whole view was and ridiculous and made no sense. But he's nice. So Dyer refuted again. Is debate toxic though? Is it really? Let's listen to this sexy bipoc diva right here. You might have heard of him. He explained. He gonna explain a little bit about debate. A problem. Is it something that is purely ego driven? It is. Is it something that is foreign to the spirit of orthodoxy? We hear this claim a lot. In fact, I've heard this claim since 2007, when I first started looking at orthodoxy. Yet at the same time, what convinced me of orthodoxy eventually, even though it took a long time, was precisely various debates. And as many people know, we have by God's grace and divine providence and all kinds of weird things that happened and occurred, we've helped thousands of people come to orthodoxy in the last four, five, six years, which is not a role that we saw it, but. But a big part of that was doing debates. So on the one hand, how are debates bad when it brings so many people to our position? Secondly, on the face of it, it's an absurd position. Number one, because it's against revelation. You know, we have in Acts 17 and in Acts 19, two different texts that I tweeted today where we're told that Paul vigorously debated for days in the synagogue, proving that Christ was Messiah, proving the kingdom of God, proved. Oh, but see, Paul was an evil, mean person. He was an evil ortho bro, because he was debating. And Jesus would never do that. Oh, wait a minute. Jesus debates with the Pharisees all the time. This and that, from Scriptures, Debating, reasoning

[David Wood]

out of the scriptures.

[Jay Dyer]

God says one of my favorite verses. Sure.

[Caller/Viewer]

What from 2 Corinthians. Sorry, from 2nd Corinthians 10:15. We demolish arguments and every pretension sets itself up against the knowledge God.

[Jay Dyer]

Yep. So we demolish the arguments and everything that sets itself up against our worldview. Oh, Paul, the evil debate bro. The evil ortho bro. Oh, it's so mean. Long gone, as I said on Twitter, are the days of Dr. Greg Bonson, who with witty, snide, rhetorical filled two hour debates, would debate the atheists, would debate the Roman Catholic Jerry Matatics, which he lost that debate, by the way. He would debate anybody that challenged. He debate other Protestants about self defense, gun ownership. And he won that debate easy. Gone are those days. Nowadays, the mere offer of a debate is a meltdown, freak out, pearl clutch extravaganza. The evangelicals are the softest goofballs in the world, and that's why their churches are all becoming Skittles. They're all butt buddies. And people are saying, I'm. I don't want to go to butt Buddy church. I'm leaving Butt Buddy church. But buddy. But buddy, my body and me. Of course, nobody wants that. Except other Grinder buddies that they want to meet up at Gavin Ortland's church. Right? Somebody needs to check. People said that during the GOP convention, Grindr crashed. Okay, we'll check Emmanuel Church, the Orland Church on a Sunday, see if Grinder starts crashing. Oh, you didn't know? They knowingly hired a pastor that was married to a dude on the down low. But who's bad? Oh, the ortho bros, Obviously. The ortho bros are the source of all of that too. They're the ones that are the. The source. They're the cause of that. They probably hooked them up in the background to make evangelicals look bad. The ortho bros probably paid bitcoin to hook those dudes up and get them into Emmanuel Church as a giant CIA sexionage operation. That's probably what happened. Now you got David Wood today going full conspiracy paranoia. Now, remember when I was on with him and AP a year ago and we were going to have this pow wow about Zionism, Christian Zionism. I was very friendly, very nice to those guys. We had a four hour talk about that. Everything went fine. Oh, but wait a minute. As soon as you agreed with a Muslim's point criticizing Avery, you must be in league part of a grand conspiracy together with Sam Shamoon, who I don't ever talk to. This is what Wood is saying. Shamoon and the Ortho bros. And now he says today all of orthodoxy are after him. We all want to collate together because we are. Nobody's after you. It's just pure narcissistic delusion. We're after your arguments. Just like when I criticize Avery. It wasn't anything personal. Let me restate what I said right here, by the way. If it's. If we were just looking for clicks like Cleave said and we wanted to be popular and oh, I just need to clout Chase Avery. My numbers are bigger than Avery's. Go look at the Google trends. I'm double him on search and we're equal on YouTube. So that comes out to me stealing be about being above him. I don't need Avery for clicks. I don't need David Wood for clicks. That's why I don't care about offending them. If I only cared about clicks, I would play ecumenist and be nice. As I said, telling Avery and IP that they need to do apologetics in the church is not an attack on them. It's actually the loving action because it's for their good and not based on the respect of men. Remember when Jesus rebuked the Pharisees? He says, you are those who look for the respect in the eyes of men. And God finds that as an abomination because he wants people that are interested in respect from God. So no, I do not put the respect of men above whether or not it's healthy, appropriate and wholesome to be an apologist outside of the church. And it's even worse than that because as we've seen, they don't. They're not just apologists outside of the church, they're apologists who tell people it doesn't matter what church. So they're telling their Adiq Muslim converts go to the synagogue church. It doesn't matter that the synagogue is a Messianic sect. Most of those are anti Trinitarians. Oh, but this one is not. So what if Muslims are hearing that they can go to the Messianic synagogues and there's a giant section of Messianic synagogues that are anti trinitarian. They're just still Muslims but with a different book they worship. Furthermore, all of these liars are acting like there's a league with Muslims with absolutely no evidence. If Judas says because he went out preaching true things, I'm not in league with Judas. If I admit that what he said was true. This is so obvious. This is what the left says. Hitler drank water. You drink water, you're with Hitler. Is that. Is that stupid? And everybody with any sense of like what a straw man is or guilt by association or any of that knows that that's ridiculous.

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[Jay Dyer]

For 10 years we've been doing online debates. They began with debating Adam Kokesh, atheist, libertarian. That was the first debate. We debated Robert Taylor, atheist, libertarian. Then we began debating other atheists. JF Then we began Protestant Muslim debates. And then we did Roman Catholic debates. Then we did cult debates, Mormon debates. We are equal opportunity offenders. Where where are you seeing a crash out? Responding to these goobers is not a crash out. So you can call in or you can get booted. Do you think I'm Crashing out. If I just went on Piers Morgan on a panel of comedians and was debating Piers Morgan about wigger, do I, do I really look like I'm crashing? Oh, I'm having a breakdown. And then I host the Alex Jones show and then I come over and do this and I sing Mormon space wife songs. Does he really think I'm crashing out? I'm having fun. Dude, you got it all wrong, dog. But I am going to show you how stupid your line of argumentation is. If I spent the last eight years debating the top Muslims and by the way, there's Protestants saying, you're lying, you never did that.

[David Wood]

What?

[Jay Dyer]

We had the biggest debate almost, perhaps, perhaps compared Andrew's debates on politics, things like that would top it. But in the religious sphere, we had the biggest debate last year. Millions of people watched the Fresh and fit me and scam Shamu versus the other goobers, the Muslim goobers that helped in Dawa. It's not the only thing that, that did that. But it was the last massive debate before Dawa just sort of petered out. Yeah, I recognize that Bob from Speaker's Corner. And other people went and, and battled at Speaker's Corner. That's great. And that was part of it, sure. But you had at least totaling clips, I would say 3 to 4 million people that watched our debate with the Muslims. And Sam Shamoon had carried the water. He was most of that debate. And that's fine with me because when people are better at a topic than me, I don't have a problem admitting that. David Wood would. Would probably debate Islam better than I do. Well, so what, though? That's not what we're talking about here. The question is, can you do and should you do apologetics that are churchless? Can we have Jesus who has no church? Because that is the problem. That's what's being sold. And they keep saying, actually you're correct, Jay. We don't even care. Allow me to show you exactly what they say when they're asked about this. They don't care what church you go to. Well, I'm sorry, but there is no churchless Jesus. That's why they will not come and discuss this with me. They will not have a formal debate because they know that this is actually the thing that cuts to the heart of the problem with all the Protestant evangelicalism. If that's foundationless, then so is Protestantism. You see, because who commissioned you? Under what authority are you? And you'll notice throughout the scriptures, this comes up all the time. That's why? Paul says to Timothy, I ordained you in Ephesus. I didn't ordain all those other pretenders. You alone have authority in Ephesus, Timothy. And he says, you lay hands on people after you. He doesn't say, yo, everybody in Ephesus, dog. If you want to go to rap church, hit up my boy, Saint Ruslan. Yo, if you want to go to Jewish church, hit up my bro, Mexican Rabbi Arroyo. Just go wherever you feel, dog. No, in fact, I've asked them and every Protestant for. For days now. Can you name one churchless apologist for the first post apostolic millennium of the church? Name one. Name one representative figure who is a churchless apologist. Oh, there's not one. One Protestant guy tried to answer it. You know what he said? Origen and Tertullian and Justin Martyr. Justin Martyr is the same. He argued for our church. Goofus and Tertullian and Origin were heretics outside the church. Thank you for proving my point that the only thing you can point to is heretics. Maddie, what's up? I hope these Protestants call in, dude. I so many Protestants today in the dms. I'm gonna come on your stream, dude. I'm gonna call in. I'm gonna call in. Boy, go set you straight, boy. Go sit straight. Maddie, what's up? I mute.

[Female Caller]

What's up, Queen?

[Jay Dyer]

What's on your mind?

[Caller/Viewer]

A lot of stuff has happened over the past 24 hours, my guy. It's insane. I think one of the biggest things to come out of this, which is one of the most, I guess exposing terrible signs, is the sheer lack of knowledge that David Wood actually possesses. Even in the post part of the. The Andrew debate, him going on about how, you know, he doesn't know much about this sort of stuff and he sticks to the basics of Christianity is like basic level, tier, Sunday level school knowledge. And it's like, you know, but it's like, you know, once the Muslims find out, Jumbo put it perfectly. Once they find out the system level the fears to process it, that whole Islamic dilemma is going to meet its match. So whether you do or don't kind of figure out that there is more to the faith than just vibes. Right. You're going to get exposed sooner or later.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I'm trying to find

[Caller/Viewer]

the.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, here we go right here.

[Caller/Viewer]

My post been going crazy the past few hours, man.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, like that's the thing is, and, and I, I knew that by the way before, Before this debate because I mean if we've been listening to you Know Wood clips off and on. I've shared David Wood clips before and he was basically very knowledgeable in one subject, which is anti Islam. That's it. And you know, Shamoon has said forever. David Wood doesn't know anything beyond that. That's why David Wood doesn't even know what the. He calls it the Filoque. Whatever. He doesn't know what it is. So it's just like we saw the exact same thing with Christian Prince a year or two ago. He doesn't know who Athanasius was. I don't. He says, I don't care who Athanasius was. What, who is even he. Who the hell is even that. But he's going to argue against icons and he's going to tell you that all that matters is you and Jesus. Right? Because anti Islamianity is an online e culture. And the problem is this right here. Let's play this. Are you happy now to care about these kind of disputes? If Protestants are saying Orthodoxy is evil, I condemn the Protestants. If Orthodox are saying that Protestant is evil, I condemn the Orthodox. Same with you Catholics. Listen, if we're going to condemn each other, I'm against that. So I'm not going to support Protestants. They're attacking the Orthodox. I'm not going to attack Orthodox attacking the Protestant. Are you happy now? No, they're not happy.

[Female Caller]

They want more drama.

[Jay Dyer]

More drama? No, it has nothing to do with wanting drama. It has to do with the whole counsel of God. It has to do with the faith once for all, delivered to the saints. It has to deal with what the Church confessed for the first thousand years as the officials belief of the Church about itself. Notice, none of these people have even ventured to cite a single church father about what the doctrine of the Church is. Because as soon as they do, they're going to realize that from Nicaea all the way to the seventh, eighth, ninth Council, we profess one holy catholic apostolic church. That means that it's not evangelical, it's not a Protestant, and it's not ecumenist. This alone is the end of their whole thing. Reason. What's up? Reason and logic. What's up?

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey. Hey.

[Jay Dyer]

Sorry, man.

[Caller/Viewer]

So I'm not. I'm not sure, like I listened to space for a little bit, but I wanted to challenge the idea of the nexus of Christianity. So who is the biological father of Jesus?

[Jay Dyer]

He has a biological mother, not a biological father.

[Caller/Viewer]

So what you're doing is you're perverting everything we know about biology of one man. So I want to understand is like. How do you put that? How do you square those things?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, the presupposition is not that naturalism tells us the total picture. The presupposition is that miracles are possible. So you're simply just saying that naturalism is true. How do you know that?

[Caller/Viewer]

Well, we don't know that. So Matthew 19. Matthew 19 was.

[Jay Dyer]

We don't know that. So. So we don't know that. We don't know that naturalism is. We don't know that natural. Hold on. You're saying we don't. We don't know natural. Shut up.

[Caller/Viewer]

We don't do it in silence.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you saying that we don't know that naturalism is true?

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[Jay Dyer]

What's that you just said? We don't know that naturalism is true.

[Caller/Viewer]

My claim is, is like that Jesus has a biological father, that a male sperm impregnated Mary.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. I mean, you're, you're against that. You're fundamentally not even within the bounds of Christianity because you're denying the virgin birth. So no, he does not have a biological father.

[Caller/Viewer]

So why do you, why do you guys suddenly deny the biological reality? But if a trans person comes up and says they're a male or a

[Jay Dyer]

female, this is so stupid, right? You deny that because the virgin birth is a miracle and Christianity is predicated on miracles. So I'm asking you, are you denying miracles and saying that naturalism is true.

[Caller/Viewer]

I'm denying the fact that miracles are an idea that man's imagination can't understand what's happening, therefore they call it a miracle. Or they in.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're saying naturalism is true. Okay, so how do we know naturalism is true? How do we know. Shut up. How do we know naturalism is true? Rephrase the question that I've asked you four times. Your argument assumes that naturalism is the case. So tell me how we know naturalism is true.

[Caller/Viewer]

When you say naturalism, I, I guess

[Jay Dyer]

you don't even know what you're. The terms.

[Caller/Viewer]

I, I asked a specific question.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't even know the basic. Yeah, so you're too. You don't even know the basic terms.

[Caller/Viewer]

Women are required for a man. Any woman are required for reproduction. Are you denying that biological truth?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, because, for example, Adam was created and he was created without a biological spermination action. So the doctrine, the doctrine of creation itself. Shut up. Shut up. The doctrine of creation itself shows you that, yes, it is possible for men and women to exist without biological parents. So now you're again retreating to naturalism, which you don't even know what the terms are in philosophy. So the argument is about the presupposition. You. You presuppose that naturalism just is the case. And that's your argument. That's its foundation. So tell me how I'm supposed to know naturalism is the case in your worldview.

[Caller/Viewer]

The argument is, is that we know for 100 fact.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a fallacy.

[Caller/Viewer]

Human biology requires.

[Jay Dyer]

That is a fallacy.

[Caller/Viewer]

No human biology requires.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you understand in logic? That's a fallacy. Do you understand in logic? That's a fallacy.

[Caller/Viewer]

It's not a logical fallacy.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, it is. Yes, it is. Yes. Just saying that we know this. This is how stupid you are. Just saying we know this is an appeal to self evidence. It's an appeal to. No true Scotsman fallacy. It's an appeal to the thing in question. How do you know?

[Caller/Viewer]

You want me to give you that shows that. That male and female come together.

[Jay Dyer]

No, no, that's not what the argument is. You don't understand logic. You're dumb. You don't understand. I know you believe that, but I'm asking you for the justification for how you know that that is universally the case. Because that's what naturalism rests on.

[Caller/Viewer]

Because there's no other evidence otherwise.

[Jay Dyer]

That's an argument from silence. That's another fallacy. Welcome. That's another fallacy. Do you know you don't know basic logic? Just saying, because there's no recorded examples that confined to the contrary, therefore it's true. That's a fallacy. That's an argument from silence.

[Caller/Viewer]

Well, I mean, sure, that you can actually do that, that's fine if you want to go and do that. Right?

[Jay Dyer]

That's called logic. Yeah, that's called logic.

[Caller/Viewer]

The fact that it's ever been done. You have no evidence for the fact that it's ever been done.

[Jay Dyer]

No, but see now you're going to have to debate different types, demonstrate. You're going to have to. Yes, I can.

[Caller/Viewer]

Without sperm.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I can.

[Caller/Viewer]

Cannot demonstrate. No, you can.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I can.

[Caller/Viewer]

Do it then, please.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that I have a worldview which gives an account for the possibility of reasoning and logic, which is the Christian paradigm. You have a worldview which undercuts the possibility of that. So my worldview which claims that there are miracles like the virgin birth, are coherent and make sense and have justification and your worldview doesn't. That's the argument.

[Caller/Viewer]

But that's fine. But that's just your preference.

[Jay Dyer]

Where did I argue a preference? You're too stupid. Can you, can you reset. You can't even restate what my argument is. You don't even understand the argument that's being had right now. What is my argument? Where did I argue preference?

[Caller/Viewer]

Well, right now you're.

[Jay Dyer]

You're saying that where did argue preference?

[Caller/Viewer]

Well, of course it's a preference.

[Jay Dyer]

Where did that come into this? There's no. But there was no preference argument. There was no preference argument.

[Caller/Viewer]

Yeah. You've decided in your life to go into the Christian worldview whenever we have other evidence to suggest.

[Jay Dyer]

Did I make that argument? That's a straw man. Now it's another fallacy. You're making a straw man, dude. Can you do basic logic? That's a straw man. When did I argue that it's true because this is my preference of what I went to. You're giving a psychological report. That's not what I argued. I made a transcendental argument. Can you refute that?

[Caller/Viewer]

It's. We're going right back to it again. Who is Jesus biological father? Are you?

[Jay Dyer]

There isn't one.

[Caller/Viewer]

Are you disputing the fact that this

[Jay Dyer]

is so low tier a male egg

[Caller/Viewer]

in a or a female egg in a male sperm in order to have a child? Are you disputing that fact?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, because it's a miracle, idiot. So you're gonna have to prove that miracles are not possible.

[Caller/Viewer]

I'm just saying. I'm just saying demonstrate the miracle.

[Jay Dyer]

The demonstration. Shut up. The demonstration is in the paradigm being able to give an account for the thing that you're relying on. That's the argument.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay, so I'm. I'm suggesting that a miracle is just simply man's imagination, that they can't actually.

[Jay Dyer]

I know this. You said that twice. But you haven't given an argument for why that's the case.

[Caller/Viewer]

Where there's an actual. Where there's an actual biology.

[Jay Dyer]

I know you think that. I know you think that. That's not. That's not an argument, by the way. That's an assertion. I want to know how you know that that's the case universally.

[Caller/Viewer]

Because it's been observed.

[Jay Dyer]

No, it hasn't. You can't observe universals. Shut up. Are you omniscient? Are you omniscient? Are you omniscient?

[Caller/Viewer]

I'm not sure what that means.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't know what the word omniscient means?

[Caller/Viewer]

Yeah, no, I. I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

But you don't know.

[Caller/Viewer]

Doesn't matter, though.

[Jay Dyer]

It does matter. Because in. Because you can't. You're so stupid. You can't justify your assertion.

[Caller/Viewer]

Is. Is that assertions are able to be created without.

[Jay Dyer]

You made a universal claim.

[David Wood]

Did you?

[Jay Dyer]

Did you make a universal claim?

[Caller/Viewer]

It doesn't matter.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't. Your argument doesn't matter.

[Caller/Viewer]

Is it your assertion that human beings

[Jay Dyer]

notice that these guys can't understand basic logical concepts like universal claim? You made the claim. What do you mean? So your argument doesn't matter? Are you saying your own argument. Are you saying your argument doesn't matter?

[Caller/Viewer]

I mean, like, it should be simple, right? It should be simple.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you saying that your argument doesn't matter because you said it doesn't matter, that you made a universal claim?

[Caller/Viewer]

I'm saying that you are making a claim that is against biological facts that we have established for hundreds.

[Jay Dyer]

You're begging the question.

[Caller/Viewer]

And what you're.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't understand what it means to justify a claim appealing to a miracle.

[Caller/Viewer]

You're appealing to. No, I didn't.

[Jay Dyer]

I made a transcendental argument. I made.

[Caller/Viewer]

I didn't figure that can't be actually proven.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't even understand the argument. The argument is proven by the transcendental argument, which you don't even understand. You're not able to address. Can you restate the argument? So it does. So the argument doesn't matter. So that's. So there, you see? This is a. This is worthless because this dude is too stupid to understand what the argument actually is. He can't justify a universal claim. And then his idiot response is I don't care that I made a universal claim. That is the argument. So you can keep saying you don't care, but that's just undercutting your own argument, you idiot.

[Caller/Viewer]

It.

[Jay Dyer]

Retro, what's up? I don't want catechumen. If you call in with catechumen questions today, you're going to make me mad. Don't call in with catechumen questions. This is obviously Protestant debate prompt. Please don't call in with catechumen questions. I want people like that dude, goofballs. They have no idea what you're asking for. When you say give me the justification for your universal claim for naturalism, it, as he said, it should be pretty simple, right? They don't know what a universal claim is. They don't know what a universal quantifier is. What's up, man? Retro.

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey, what's going on? I definitely lost a couple brain cells listening to that guy. But I guess my main question is. Well, it's like two parts to it. So you're. You go to a ro or parish.

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[Caller/Viewer]

I'm here in South Carolina and most of the Russians I run into are Baptist. And you know, you would think that, you know, since Russia is an Orthodox country, that, you know, they would know better and better and be Orthodox. Now I know that ethnicity doesn't guarantee a certain religion, but do you have any idea if there's something else there, like why that is the case?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the Russians have been under a lot of propaganda from Western soft power via Evangelical Baptist missionaries. So many of them are propagandized into leaving the Russian Church because the Russian church was subverted and had a lot of KGB bishops during the Cold War. So there's a long History related to that. So we're looking for Protestants and people that disagree. If you're, if your questions aren't related to Protestantism or some apologetic angle, please save your questions or, or your comments for the next live stream. And I don't. Dude, a lot of you ortho guys are spurgs and you will just come on and ask your question anyway. And I'm going to tell you right now, if you ask me the catechumen questions, I will not answer them. I will not. And you can just say, I mean, I don't care. Where is this Protestant elder dude that's supposed to call in? That's who I want to see. Let's see what he says. I requested to talk. I don't see you in here, dude. Who knows if he even did you. These people are just full of.

[Caller/Viewer]

Dude.

[Jay Dyer]

Gabriel, what's up?

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey Jay, how's it going? Appreciate you man.

[Jay Dyer]

What's on your mind?

[Caller/Viewer]

I, I, I am actually I go, I go to a Pentecostal. So like I am basically a Protestant come based and I would like to ask you something that I'm, I'm really serious here. Okay. If you don't mind. Do you know the, the, the, the the five why question game? Like I ask you five times why and you answer me from just one question.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Caller/Viewer]

Like, like my father taught me this. Like if you can, if you can answer the five whys for something you want to do, that means that you are based on what you want to do and it makes sense. So if I ask you like why do you think like really take me seriously here? Why do you think the Orthodox Church is really the real church? And I asked you why five times from the first answer they make.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, because, because, because the real reason

[Caller/Viewer]

of you, you based that the Orthodox Church is the real church and the other ones are like heretical. And I am gonna ask you like four times why.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so because the church of the first thousand years is the Orthodox Church. Therefore it's not Protestant, it's not any of these sects.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay. Why is that?

[Jay Dyer]

Because the church fathers have thousands of pages of writings that tell us that. And the ecumenical councils all tell us that of course.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay, why is that?

[Jay Dyer]

Because they were responding to the heretics of the, of their times who have basically the identical argumentation of the Protestants today.

[Caller/Viewer]

Right. And why is that like according to this, this heretical from back then. Why is that only, only one more.

[Jay Dyer]

Because why did they do it? Well, they did it because they have a duty to safeguard and defend the faith. And so most of the church fathers were the ones that we have the writings from. Most of them were apologists.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay, the last one. Why?

[Jay Dyer]

Because. Because we're told to earnestly contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints in Jude.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay, I appreciate you. I see Miss, Miss Rachel Wilson there. I appreciate you. Thank you, man.

[Jay Dyer]

Bye bye. Thank you. Why am I playing Asman Gold? Because even Asman Gold chimed in on this because it was the. One of the top. I think it's the first time I've been in the top trends. Maybe twice now in the trending because everybody piled on. Andrew came in, Wood came in. Thousands. There's like 7,8000 comments. Even Asmongold commented there's Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism.

[David Wood]

All the other ones are.

[Jay Dyer]

That's what I think. They're all.

[David Wood]

Especially the stupid ones.

[Jay Dyer]

Especially the stupid ones.

[David Wood]

Like this, this whole Martin Luther. No, bro, like get that out of here.

[Jay Dyer]

Like that was just total protest. So even Asthma Gold can figure out, well, wait a minute, right? It's got to be the same as what was the first thousand years. And that's either Catholic or Orthodox. We all know it ain't Protestant. So I thought that was a funny clip and then this one just popped up. Let's hear this one. Because of the main issue of the, of the magisterium and the papacy of the. The Pope authority being universal, they also divided over what's called a filoque filoke. The issue of Jesus having, you know, the, the Philip. Philip Quay cost on Tony Costa. So the Philo Quay.

[David Wood]

On Monday I'm going to have Tony Costa on Tony Costa.

[Jay Dyer]

Tony Costa is the guy who offered to debate me eight years ago and then canceled because I was too mean. I mean these people are just pathetic, dude. Now imagine David Wood, who is an actual psycho, saying that I'm too mean

[David Wood]

to debate Protestant Protestant apologists. Not a fan of Eastern Orthodoxy. So we're gonna have him on Monday and he gets to blast away at Eastern Orthodox. Why? Because I need a crash course, right? Because I'm a grifter until I start debating.

[Jay Dyer]

So David Wood, who's now admitting he knows nothing about Orthodoxy, is going to have this goober Protestant Calvinist guy on to instruct him on Orthodoxy. The guy who declined to debate me in 2018 because I was too mean. So this should be a hoot. And now, by the way, you'll notice it shifted from Ortho bros bad. Now they're being A little more honest. And they're. They're full on just saying no. It's actually just Orthodoxy. So they've realized that the problem isn't ortho bros, because ortho bros, whether you like their mean conduct or not, they're actually the ones theologically correct, at least in representing Orthodox theology. Alonzo.

[David Wood]

Ip.

[Jay Dyer]

Alonzo. What's up, Stallion? What's up? Notice that even the atheists will call in debate, but no Protestant evangelical will. What's up, dude? Yo, talk, dude. Unmute to talk.

[Caller/Viewer]

Good grief.

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, they don't know how to unmute, but they're going to reform the church and create Jesus's true kingdom. Dalton, what's up? And they can't unmute. Dalton.

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey. Sorry. So my question is, specifically, if Orthodox is true, then how would you know which one to choose between, like, Eastern and Russian? And all of those.

[Jay Dyer]

Those are not different churches. So do some basic research and figure out that the Russian Orthodox Church is not different than the other Orthodox churches. They're in communion. Except that right now, the EP and the MP have broken communion, but they're still technically the same church. Ellie, what's up? L. Ellie, unmute. Dude, the Protestants are all. Dude, get off the slow bus, man. Y' all are still on the slow bus. How are y' all gonna fix everything? And y' all can't even figure out how to unmute? Short bus shorty. Short bus shorty. What's up? Ellie, unmute. Okay, don't. Whatever. Goodbye. Daniel, what's up? Don't ask me catechiman. Question questions. You're forewarned. Daniel, what's up? Does sweater not work today? I don't understand people just running away. Stallion, you want to try again?

[Caller/Viewer]

What's up, man?

[Jay Dyer]

Go ahead. Look.

[Caller/Viewer]

So I'm not a. I'm not a Protestant, thank God. But I just wanted to say I'm a former Muslim, right? And so hating Islam, being the only apologetics is the dumbest thing that these people are doing, right? Like, obviously, the issue is, you know, the. The church fathers, like, St. John, Damascus. His whole shtick wasn't just, like, debunking Islam and, like, dunking on it 24 7. Like, you know, like. I don't know. I don't know why people are crashing out on you. I think it's the dumbest thing.

[Jay Dyer]

Like.

[Caller/Viewer]

Like. Like, average.

[Jay Dyer]

It's because they're actually.

[Caller/Viewer]

It's just the dumbest thing.

[Jay Dyer]

They're also dumb. That's the problem is that they think that the religion is a personal Existential emotional experience. It's once saved, always saved. It's adopting a set of propositions from a YouTube video. That's not what this religion is. I'm sorry? It's the Nicene Creed. That's what this religion is. And that creed says one holy Catholic episode. Church. What's up, man? You can't have Jesus without church. It doesn't exist. It's fraudulent. Daniel on mute, man.

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey, Jay, can you hear me?

[Andrew]

Huh?

[Caller/Viewer]

Hello?

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[Caller/Viewer]

Good. Great, dude.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. Yes, Timothy, what's up?

[Caller/Viewer]

Don't worry, I unmuted.

[Jay Dyer]

Good.

[Caller/Viewer]

I have a. I. I need to ask you a couple questions real quick, Jay, because it's not catechumen. Questions are actually. I know that's. No, don't, don't.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, just ask the question, dog. I'm not going to just ask the question.

[Caller/Viewer]

I'm asking for a clarification here because I, I've kind of been able to monitor this a little closely. Before all your fallout with Ruslan, I was able to kind of like catch on to it. I. I made a comment. Obviously no one ever reads YouTube comments. He's been hating on orthodoxy for a long time. That's common knowledge. You've been really cordial about it. I think a lot of people act like you haven't. And I want to touch base on this point because I said so. I understand you better as well as hopefully maybe give you guys more ammo. The complaint is not that we ultimately just showing up and attacking them. They're attacking us.

[Jay Dyer]

I know Orthodox church.

[Caller/Viewer]

They're attacking the ortho bros. The very nation nature of the, the code name they give just anyone who beats them in a debate. That's why Jay's so mean, because he beats me in debate. Jim Bob brought this up and said, hey, this isn't a meadow of Christianity where we all get along. I'm like, well, it kind of can be, but you have to be willing to have a discussion because I'm a man and I can have a discussion with my friend. And we're still friends afterwards. They're the ones who are so thin skinned that they lose a debate and they're not your friends anymore.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Caller/Viewer]

We're not going out and complaining about this. So what I, what I just want to kind of clarify is they've been bad mouth Orthodox on David Wood show forever. David would outright admitted it. Even with Andrew, when Andrew was debating him, I was kind of hoping he'd bring up this point. Jay, you did not show up on Orthodox Muslims channel. And like his comment just because you were already making a claim and he was agreeing with that claim and saying, hey, for clarification, this is what I think they're trying to say. And you said bingo. You didn't. He didn't make a post out of the clear blue. And you just liked his post. That's not what happened. You were already having this beast. You know what I mean?

[Jay Dyer]

They don't care. They don't, they don't care about the context. They just want a pearl to clutch to act like, aha, we finally have a moral gotcha. And we can say he's a bad person. That's the lowest level. This is what every low tier goober has been doing for 10 years. They need to take. I mean they know the Muslims all do this to them and then what do they do? The same thing the Muslims do.

[Caller/Viewer]

Yeah. And it, it's kind of odd. I guess I'm hoping Andrew and everyone kind of catch on to this is like the thing that needs to be brought up continuously is this. You made a statement way before any of them did. They're liars.

[Jay Dyer]

I know. They lie.

[Caller/Viewer]

You put, you literally put a guy. If you sent all your people to a catechumen being roasted by the two biggest idiots on the planet. Hey, shockingly enough, guys, that's an attack on Orthodoxy. Did you bring an Orthodox priest on there to balance things out? Oh, you brought in. You brought a schismatic priest on to badmouth Orthodoxy. How the hell are we the ones we are showing up in your spaces?

[Jay Dyer]

By the way, last time I brought

[Caller/Viewer]

on it or you brought on a Hey, I brought a schismatic Lutheran to talk bad about Lutheranism? Well, no, it doesn't happen.

[Jay Dyer]

I noticed that God logic never said that that shouldn't happen. And he's sorry it happened. He didn't say that it was bad for his clips dude to do it. In fact, when it came up with ip, they said it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter what church you go to. It doesn't matter that I send people to synagogues. Who cares? So again, that's the issue. They're now running, retreating and lying about what actually happened because that is evangelicalism. Is this performative pearl clutching. That's the religion is that, that's. It's a public performative thing. That's why they don't. Because they don't have the liturgy. They don't have any of that.

[Caller/Viewer]

And that's 100. The truth is they know they're wrong. So they don't want to debate it, because they'll lose. I think Andrew Wilson touched on in his debate where he said, here, yeah, why don't you debate Jay and get destroyed by him? I could destroy them. I'm not you, but this is common sense stuff. They have no idea what they're talking about. They're disrespecting orthodoxy, then telling us that we're just being rude to them. I'm like, no, you insulted us when you brought a catechumen on. Who is a nice guy? He does a good job. Who cares? We're not mad at him. We're mad at you because you knew what you were doing. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Ruzon is a snake. That's the thing.

[Caller/Viewer]

You knew that. You brought Gavin Orland.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. And when I politely DM'd Ruslan personally to see if we could be cool, he flexed his channel in my face and said, I don't have time for you, which was just totally arrogant. And that's the point where I was like, this dude is just. There's something off with this dude. This is not. I don't. I no longer believe he's sincerely open to any of these positions. Right. So let's listen to him crashing out here, apparently. I saw Ruslan coming up. I'm like, sorry, I was mute. I said, is he saying one of us is ugly? That's not nice. Yeah, you. Yeah, you. You weren't here. So he's clearly saying you were ugly when you put that in. All right, I'll take it. I attended an Orthodox liturgy on Sunday. I believe God has been leading me that way. My family wants me to stay at our Baptist church. Any advice? Here's my advice for everyone on this issue. Okay? Don't believe heresy. Okay. I don't think. I don't think Baptists or Orthodox teach heresy. So how could Baptists or Orthodox not teach heresy when they teach mutually exclusive fundamental doctrines? Orthodox believe the Nicene Creed. Baptists do not. I don't care if they affirm the deity of Christ. If you deny one holy, Catholic, apostolic, you deny baptismal regeneration. You're not Christian. You're outside the bounds of the Orthodox Christian conception of the Church and what the Church of the first thousand years said. So the mere idea that there is an Orthodoxy shared amongst every sect is preposterous. It's just the assumption that they have, they assume, mere Christianity, which is, unfortunately, the nonsense idea from CS Lewis. Where did CS Lewis get the idea that there is such a thing as mere Christian? It's an Anglican idea, which is the roots of the modern ecumenist movement. It comes out of Anglican branch theory. We don't believe branch theory. So the fact that all these Protestant ecumenists just assume branch theory is the thing in question, Prove branch theory if it's true. Come prove that Jesus established 30,000 sects, 20,000 sex, 800 sects. And I will simply show you that from the first, second, third, all the way up to the 10th century, there's only one apostolic Catholic Church. And we saw it in the stream. I did a couple days ago. We just went through the cannons of the councils, the early ones have. In one hour we went through all of the canons that demonstrate no, there's not a thousand different churches, a thousand different sacraments and baptisms in the. And the idea of the church of the first thousand years. And every one of these people will be forced to admit that, meaning that they don't have a church to send anyone to because you can't send people to the synagogue, Messianic synagogue, and the Baptist church and the whatever church down the road and the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. It makes no sense. They're not all church. They can't be. That's why they won't debate, because they don't know this topic. The fact that IP has me on, by the way, to quote mine out of the 1st and 2nd century Church Fathers to prove the deed of Christ doesn't. How come he's not willing to see the quote minds about the nature of the church in those centuries? Because it's not Baptist and it's not going to help their lowest common denominator appeals. Their whole thing is built on that. Jordan. Here we go. Jordan wants to discuss these topics. You have to unmute.

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey, what's up, guys? What's up, Jay? Hey.

[Jay Dyer]

Hey.

[Caller/Viewer]

So you know, I've heard you talk a few times and you have like kind of like a signature opener or something that you say often where like how do you know the canon without the church? And so I just wanted to kind of start there and ask you what's the definition of the church?

[Jay Dyer]

It's the Nicene Creed's definition of one holy, catholic and apostolic. So you gotta have those kind four marks to even be the Church.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay. And so is the body of Christ and the Church the same thing?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay. And so in Ephesians, when Jesus presents his bride, it's without blemish. Right. That's clearly soteriological.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Caller/Viewer]

That's salvific.

[Jay Dyer]

It's eschatological. That's the eschatological presentation of the church, as Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 about the kingdom being delivered up to the Father.

[Caller/Viewer]

So do you believe that everyone who has been orthodox is in heaven with Christ?

[Jay Dyer]

No. So you're really going to make this low tier of a donatist argument that the church is not a mixed multitude? You, you don't realize this was resolved in the first four centuries.

[Caller/Viewer]

I'm just saying. Clearly, the body of Christ and a physical church are not the same thing.

[Jay Dyer]

No.

[Caller/Viewer]

They're not comprised of different people.

[Jay Dyer]

No. So again, you're fundamentally misunderstanding. When Jesus talks about there being one shepherd, one sheepfold, when there's one branch, excuse me, one, one tree in Romans 11 that you're grafted in and out of. And Paul says there's one Lord, one faith, one body, one baptism. You don't think that you can be brought into that and then also grafted out of it?

[Caller/Viewer]

If you're asking if I think someone can be saved and lose their salvation, no, I don't. I think if someone, if they walk away, they were never saved to begin with.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, wow, that's really high tier, dude. What about. Okay, so in Hebrews, that's not even

[Caller/Viewer]

the point of the discussion.

[Jay Dyer]

It is because it is the body

[Caller/Viewer]

of the Christ in church, I'm saying, is coherent in scripture as all of the body of believers predestined to believe in Christ, who will join him in cosmic union with all saints.

[Jay Dyer]

So you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Caller/Viewer]

That's the body.

[Jay Dyer]

You have no idea what you're talking about. Because. Because in Hebrews it says that those who have tasted of the heavenly gift, who have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, if they fall away, they are apostate. Jesus says in the gospel. Shut up. Jesus says in the Gospels that when the seed falls on the ground and it springs up to new life, it can then die if it falls into the cares of the world in wickedness.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay, okay, let's say. I mean, this isn't even the point of the combo though. The point of the conversation.

[Jay Dyer]

It is because it proves that the church. Church is not the elect only like you believe. It disproves your invisible only heresy.

[Caller/Viewer]

How does that disprove that the church is the elect? Only

[Jay Dyer]

because Paul wrote to a visible church in Ephesus and called them all the elect.

[Caller/Viewer]

That doesn't, that doesn't mean anything. That's a foul.

[Jay Dyer]

It doesn't mean anything. It disproves Calvinism. I used to Be a Calvinist. You think I didn't make all these dumb arguments? Did Paul write to. Did Paul write to a visible church

[Caller/Viewer]

Make a good counter.

[Jay Dyer]

Who is the visible bishop of Ephesus according to Paul's Epistles?

[Caller/Viewer]

I don't remember.

[Jay Dyer]

You don't even know who the bishop of Ephesus is in Paul's Epistles?

[Caller/Viewer]

No, I'm forgetting it.

[Jay Dyer]

So you don't know the basics. Why are you trying to debate me when you don't know the basics?

[Caller/Viewer]

Forgetting the guy's name.

[Jay Dyer]

Timothy. Ever heard of him?

[Caller/Viewer]

Timothy was in Ephesus. Oh, man.

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, get out of here. You're. You're just a waste of my time. Why are you even wasting of my time, man? You don't know anything. Dude, get out of here. This guy was not all talking smack all day long. Oh, I'm so eager to debate. I'm ready to. I'm ready to take you. Let's talk about soul Scriptura. So he comes with. He doesn't even know who. Who is the Bishop of Ephesus. He doesn't know that Timothy is who's appointed in Ephesus. Notice people talk the biggest smack. They don't know anything. Anything. This guy wanted to set up a public debate. I said, I don't think I'm. You're worth a public debate. No, you need to do me the public debate. You need to do a public debate with formal debate. You don't even know what's in the. Paul's letters to Timothy. Why am I going to debate you? I can tell right away he doesn't know anything. No, but you need to have a formal. I'm supposed to have a formal debate with people who don't even know who they are. Nobody knows who that guy is. You need to set up a formal debate with me. You don't even know what's in Paul's letters to Timothy. You forgot who Paul appointed in Ephesus. But I owe you a formal debate. That's the. This is the arrogance and the Dunning, Saint Dunning, Kruger level of these evangelicals. They're so arrogant. They complain about the ortho bros as they turn around and say you. As they turn around and flip me off. Look at this. Check at this guy. These are the same people whining about online conduct, saying I'm in league with Muslims. I'm trying to get people taken out. I'm a jihadi. I did eight years of debates with Muslims, the top ones. And then he says, here, here's my middle finger. To you. Oh, what about online conduct? You dumb hypocrite. You are the stupidest people on the Internet. Dumb as the Muslims. You evangelicals are so stupid and arrogant that you are just sending the people out of your church. You're doing our work for us. Thank you. Keep being dumb. Keep saying stupid. Keep talking and then showing how stupid you actually are. It. All it does is help us. All I have to do is let you people talk. It takes two or three questions and you don't know basics. I don't know who Timothy is, but I'm ready to do a public debate. Gabriel. What's up?

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay. Hey, Jay. I'm. I'm not.

[Jay Dyer]

I know.

[Caller/Viewer]

I'm a catechumer. I'm not gonna.

[Jay Dyer]

Don't ask me a catechumen question, bro.

[Caller/Viewer]

Anyway, I thought it was funny how when Andrew Wilson was talking to David Wood, they were talking about you, but he would rather have a conversation about you instead of to you.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure, of course.

[Caller/Viewer]

That was hilarious.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, he already admitted that he doesn't know anything about orthodoxy or church history by that. By that mat. By for that matter. So he's got to have a Calvinist come tell him why orthodox are bad. Everybody knows that. The lowest common denominator approach of just trying to see who's.

[David Wood]

I'll give you a simple example here.

[Jay Dyer]

The only reason this works is because their audience is Adiq. Former Muslims. That's their whole shtick. It's a one trick pony operation. And once they're confronted with anything outside of Muslim bag Quran, Dom, they don't know anything. And they're soup. They're just creating extremely super arrogant idiots. Dunning. Saint Dunning. Kruger.

[David Wood]

Listen, that doesn't require all this stuff. Just someone's running down the street, they go one way and you know, we can affirm a lie that they went a different way. That's going to prevent someone from being killed. Prevent a girl from being killed. Yes, yes, you can do that. That sort of thing.

[Andrew]

So you so concede the prompt. I understand. Yes. I want the prompt. You concede sometimes it is the case that Orthodox Christians.

[David Wood]

Well, no, because. Because if. If the topic. If there's an affirmative and a negative, then it's. You're saying sometimes we did not. Sometimes, no. So it's. Wait, same thing.

[Andrew]

I'm sorry. Can you show me anywhere that I agreed to take the negative position? Pure. A pure negative position anywhere. When I agree to this debate prompt, David. And what's wrong with me taking a sometimes position?

[David Wood]

Then we would agree on A sometimes position. So sometimes.

[Andrew]

Sometimes it is. Okay. Okay, great. I'm glad, I'm glad that you agree with me. I'm glad that we got very.

[David Wood]

In very weird situations, you're saving someone's life by affirming a lie or something like that. Yeah, fine. I'll give you a.

[Jay Dyer]

So he admits the whole prompt in this debate which shows that it wasn't even about the topic. It's just to make a stink and to play victim, which is what narcissists do. They play the victim when they're the cry. They're cry bullies.

[Caller/Viewer]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

Just like the meme. They stab you and then they cry victim as they're stabbing you.

[Andrew]

That when he was a younger man, right before he went into prison for I think it was attempted murder, he raped a 15 year old girl. At least by the statutes. Right? Okay, you're right. Not forcible. He raped a 15 year old girl. That's not the statue.

[David Wood]

There's a state that calls that rape.

[Andrew]

Okay, what? I don't know, whatever. Is it statutory rape or not?

[Caller/Viewer]

Not.

[David Wood]

No, this is information.

[Andrew]

Okay, what about the 13 year old?

[Jay Dyer]

No, it's that you could.

[Andrew]

You can. A 13 year old at 18, that's fine.

[David Wood]

No, it's a different crime. It's called carnal knowledge of an. A girl under 17 or something.

[Andrew]

Okay, so. So if Jay came out and he admitted that he had carnal knowledge of a 13 year old when he was 18 years old and his audience says, you know what, we're going to look past that. That's actually less cultish to you you than them saying debate.

[Caller/Viewer]

What, you can hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yep.

[Caller/Viewer]

Okay, cool.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Caller/Viewer]

I just want to say all these Protestant guys, bro, it's just a money making scheme. That's all it is. At the end of the day, God logic has JP and all these guys under him. He's just boosting them up. That's all it is. They don't care about Christianity, they don't care about the truth, they don't care about actual doctrine. All they want to do is just make money, bro. They just want to come in and make money. That's all it is.

[Jay Dyer]

You know, if I think what happens is we, what we do is we typically give everybody benefit of the doubt. And we've done that with all these people over the years, right? So I give Sam Shamoon many years, many recommendation, many recommendations, many chances, many opportunities. When does he flip out? When I offer to debate him and William Albrecht on the essence energy distinction. Then he flips Out. We give Ruslan many years, many chances. Friendly with him, cool with him. When does he flip out? Well, when he starts doing snaky, sneaky tactics of trying to set catechumens up to take a fall and people call him out on it and then he flips out and says, see, the ortho bros are so mean. We're victims. You're not a victim.

[Caller/Viewer]

Them.

[Jay Dyer]

You're out here in the public, by the way, and you publicly debate people supposedly that you're going to do it. Gavin does it. They all publicly debate. Trent Horn. They all will publicly debate. And by the way, they'll go debate and be on stage with people 10 times worse than us, like Destiny, who call for violence for a decade straight. But the ortho bros, they're the real bad people. People. Oh, what has the ortho bro actually done? Well, there was a guy who smoked a cigarette on a live stream and he had a sip of whiskey and he said the four letter word. And Jay made a fat joke and he made a black joke and he talked like a black person. So they're racist. See, that's all they have. This is so weak, dude. There's notice how nobody will discuss the theology. Nobody. None of these people. All of this is smoke and mirrors. To not talk about their faking gay churches, which are actually fake and gay. As we saw last week with Gavin, Gavin Ortland's church literally hiring a gay pastor that they knew was gay to be pastor who was formerly in a secret down low on the down low marriage to a dude. But it's worse to say four letter words and have a cigarette. That's the real. These people are absolute hypocrites. They call orthodox Pharisees. The Pharisee is the person who's doing 10 times worse thing, straining gnats and swallowing camels. That's a Pharisee. And like Andrew said, and is also my experience, when you're around these people in person, they'll cuss like a sailor. They'll drink and smoke. Ruslan himself smoking cigars on his stupid ass videos and then saying, I yo, I don't smoke no silk. Why would I want. Yo, I don't want smoke in my body. And then he's over there puffing freaking cigar. And I don't even care about a freaking nicotine cigar. It doesn't. That's the point is that. What are you talking about? That is bad. But you're doing it, dummy. And I think several of these people. Yeah, you wanna. Yeah, we're still whining when they're in meltdown mode. How about you call in coward? But you got to understand, all Protestant evangelicalism is. Is public performance piety. That's all it is. The religion is putting it publicly on Internet for people to see. And even the people who are former Protestants still do that. Sam Shamoon can't do a live stream without praying before everybody for 20, 30 minutes straight as his introduction. It's gross. Meanwhile, in person, these people do all the same stuff. They're ridiculous. It's a front. So we still give everybody the benefit of the doubt. People that are inquirers, people that invite us on to have conversations, we treat them in the exact same way. And then when do do we. Just randomly. Out of. No, I'll just. Out of nowhere. I'm gonna go after God logic today. No, out of nowhere is not the case. God logic sends people to synagogues. God logic sends people to. It doesn't matter. It's a messianic synagogue. It literally does not matter. Because if you're sending people to a Philly Oakley professing synagogue, it's not a church, it's a parachurch. There is no churchless apologetic. All we need is for one of these people to give an example

[Caller/Viewer]

of

[Jay Dyer]

a single person in the post apostolic period, in the first thousand years of the church, who's a churchless apologist. Where is the precedence for this? But they can't. They can't do that, because when they realize there isn't one, then it means the whole thing is up. The gig is up. And the one trick pony of anti Islamianity is not Christianity. Saint Athanasius says the catechumens that come into the church are catechized for a period of time, a long period of time, by reading the Deuterocanon. What Protestant church catechizes people by reading the Deuterocanon? Well, that right there shows you that they don't have the same church is Athanasius.

[Caller/Viewer]

I believe that I see creed.

[Jay Dyer]

No, you don't. Nicene Creed talks about the one at Constantinople. 11 Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. Oh, that means Calvinism. No, it doesn't. The Cappadocians can compose that creed. And we know that they meant baptismal regeneration. They meant the church that has apostolic succession, as we saw in the canons in the other stream from a couple days ago. Yes, the ancient canon say you cannot go to synagogues to worship. What's their response? Jay's racist. What? How could I be racist if I'm bipoc? Oh, flip the script on them boys. Plus I'm the wigger emperor of wigs. Anthea, how could a wigger be racist? Oh, you didn't think about that one, did you, jda, what's up? Oh, we gotta hear Ruslan's answer. But if you think you're gonna grow better in that church, go to that church. So telling catechumen people who are new converts go wherever you think you'll grow. How does a person who doesn't know anything about the history of the church and what catechesis even is, how are they gonna have the discernment to just know, go wherever they are, leading people to shipwreck? That's the problem them there's only one church, only one ark, only one sheepfold. It ain't Protestant, it ain't Catholic, it ain't evangelical, and it ain't E church. It ain't Bless God's R B Church. You're just stop for a minute and think you're watching a goofball with broccoli hair who goes to rap church. Freaking rap church. Rhythm Church is Ruslan's fake made up church. What do you think has any compatibility with ancient Christianity in rap church?

[Caller/Viewer]

Duh.

[Jay Dyer]

It's faking gay. They literally modeled it after Peter Drucker's business church model, which we covered all week long. And these goofballs are going to tell us that we're a cult when they are based around e queers like the Ortlands, who openly have gay dudes as pastors and who co pastor with pro gay dudes. But the orthos are the cult. This is so crazy to me.

[Caller/Viewer]

Me.

[Jay Dyer]

That's why they make all of this smoke is to deflect away from do Rap Church is fake and gay. It's that simple. Who believes the apostles had rhythm Church?

[Caller/Viewer]

Let's just.

[Jay Dyer]

You think so. Rhythm Church is just as valid as the Baptist church, as orthodox church, as whatever churches. What is he doing? Eating on stream. Dude's over there eating an entire castle roll on a stream. Dude, if you're gonna eat it on a stream, it needs to be like me, the fruit of the earth, son. Dude over here eating a damn casserole on stream. Oh, jda, what's up?

[Caller/Viewer]

Just wanted to add that I had like a compilation of clips from that Andrew and Wood stream.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller/Viewer]

So if you. If you wanted to like watch highlights of it. I have did.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. I'm gonna go to that. I'm gonna go to that in a second.

[Caller/Viewer]

Yeah, and also I wanted to ask. Ask a Question, like on an older stream with Kai, it was said that like people outside of the church, like historically weren't called Christians. And I just wanted to ask like, like is it out of convenience that we talk about these people as Christians or are we doing it Orthodoxy by

[Jay Dyer]

it, it's because they're Christian in name and people are just saying yeah, they all profess Christianity. So Christian in name, right? But that doesn't mean that we grant that they have the sacramental graces. It also doesn't mean that we are saying there's no grace. Right? There are graces outside the church. If there wasn't, nobody would come to the church. So we're not laying claim to people's eternal destinies because we don't know that. But what we are able to say, as we are instructed to say is that there's one holy catholic and apostolic church and outside of that you will probably suffer shipwreck unless you come into it. We have a duty to say that. And it's not mean to tell people the truth. In fact it's loving to tell people the truth. When you send people to Messianic synagogue church, when you send people to mega church. I mean think about this. We all know that Joel Osteen's church probably produces more atheists than Matt Dillahunty. According to these goobers. There's no reason I can't go to old Joel Osteen's church if I feel like I'm being fed there. If I'm a new convert, think how stupid this is. Duh. I mean this is not rocket science. And all of the people who are so mad are actually just dumb ignorant people. I've seen thousands of comments in the past few days. Thousands. The, the trending thing that had me on it the other day already has like 7 or 8,000 comments under it. And they don't know anything, dude. And they're so arrogant. This is the problem is that this evangelical gibberish produces people who are absolutely deluded and pre lust think they know everything. Super self righteous and they are absolute idiots. They don't know anything. They don't know the first, they don't know where the Bible came from. You've got Calvin has been Calvinist for years. Doesn't know who Timothy was, what where he was Bishop, doesn't know what Paul said to Timothy about Ephesus. They don't know what Athanasius taught or who he even was. Christian Prince, this top anti Islamianity cult leader doesn't know who Athanasius even is these people are idiots. They're loons. They're unhinged crazy people. But the Internet is great for those people to gather a following. Well, you're just doing the same thing. No, I'm not. We always tell people you have to go to the Orthodox church. You have to be under a spiritual father, a spiritual authority. These people believe the King James Bible. Some of these loons as that guy debated, which is that's going to be at 100,000 pretty soon. The Stephen Anderson cult. A perfect recruiting ground for online goobers. Dude actually thinks the 1611 KJV is an uncreated book. They're Sunni Baptist idiots. That's what these people are being taught. So according to the logic of God, logic and Michael Jones, you can, if you feel like Stephen Anderson's cool, go learn about the uncreated book. Hey, wait a minute. I thought you were taking people away from Islam so now they can go be Baptist Muslims and believe in the uncreated kjv. That makes no sense at all. It's all of this is and all they have is ortho bros mean ortho bros bad. And they're trying to move it into saying that we're violent which is all SPLC fed slot narrative. We all know that. I've been telling you this for weeks. And now David Wood saying they're trying to come after me and and get they're teaming up with Muslims. No, we're not. Orthodox have fought Muslims for centuries. It's total lies. I bet you David Wood doesn't even know Serbian kings fought Muslims for centuries. Muslims are killing Orthodox right now. But we're teaming up with Muslims. This is so stupid. And people who have at least a 90 IQ can understand that. Makes no sense why Jay's debated Muslims for eight years. Probably converted thousands of Muslims to orthodoxy. Pro guessing. And I'm saying that because just the scam Shamu debate on fresh and fit. 3,45 million views. Remember the comments underneath that debate? You could probably still go read them unless Fresh and Fit took it down. 95 Muslims got this demolished in that debate. So I think it's reasonable to think that many Muslims probably converted from that debate. Now my other Muslim debates for the past eight years, you could total all those up if you count the sneako Muslim lantern debate. If you count the Hakikachu debates, those would probably have multiple million views total across all the platforms clips and everything. The Muslim lantern debate clips. Some of them got 3, 4 500, 000 views. Okay, so massive Damage to Dawa. But we're in league with Muslims because we said that the critique of God logic was correct. It's retarded. It's so stupid. It's a smear tactic. That's all they have is to smear people and hope that their Adiq ex Muslim audience agrees with it. And notice how much of an insult that is to his own audience. He thinks his audience is so dumb and they probably are, that they will actually think that agreeing with a personal's comment means that you're secretly in league in a Muslim conspiracy. It's so stupid. Alonzo. Alonzo, what's up?

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey Jay, can you hear me? Huh? Hey, my, my bad. I've never called in before, but I was just gonna say regarding all this, you've made this point many times in the past, but when it comes to whether it's David Wood or Ruslan or any of these lowest common denominational Christians, you pointed out, whenever they say, hey, you know, well, I just, I believe that Jesus is this and we die for my sins. And I've heard you say, well yeah, well Satan believes that same thing, so does that make him a Christian? That's one thing I always think of. And they cannot divorce or disentangle the idea that there is a historical church.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Caller/Viewer]

And that what you try and teach people or lead them to is these aren't your views. These are things that have been hashed out over hundreds of years. Like it's not like you're just coming up with this and saying they don't,

[Jay Dyer]

but they don't know any of that because. Because look, I've been an evangelical. I know what it's like to know nothing. And you get to a fork in the road and you either have to swallow the humility pill and realize that you don't know any, anything at all or you triple down in your pre last. This is the problem. Mega churches and these goofballs are pre list preachers. They're creating people in delusion who if they go to mega churches will be atheists in five years. That's the problem. So they're just creating atheists in their anti Islamianity grift. There is no churchless apologetic. Show me one apologist in the first thousand years of Christianity after the apostles because they're just going to say the apostles have their view. So post apostolic period. Name anybody who is a parachurch apologist. Name one it. Find me a churchless apologist. There's not any. It doesn't exist because it's A post reformation radical Reformation idea. Even the Protestant reformers would not agree to parachurch ministries. Find me an example. Although I know ultimately they're still parachurch. But even in their argumentation, where does Calvin give the idea that anyone can just be an online minister or that there's a Jesus only apologetic? It doesn't exist. It's an Anglican creation out of branch theory. Why did this come about? Well, in the Reformation, the Anglicans needed a way to figure out what is the nature of the church if we were created by Henry VIII due to his divorce. And so they're no longer under the papal church. And so they come up with an idea that the church is actually now a bunch of branches. Like there's a tree, but the tree has a bunch of branches. And there's the Calvinist branch and the Lutheran branch and the Anglican branch and the radical Anabaptist branch. Oh no, they don't count. But why? Oh, because they have this, this, this. Oh, but wait a minute. It you see how arbitrary this is? Now you start narrowing down the doctrines that matter. It's the same debate with those idiot freemasons. All you gotta do is just believe in a God. What God? Just a God. Okay? The devil. No, that one doesn't count. I mean, dude, this is so dumb. All this is so. It's like we're dealing with like children. Everybody is a freaking kid, dude. And the only adults in the room are the ones that are like being consistent and saying if you got the goods, if you can prove mere Christianity, why can't you come and debate it? Show me a church father who teaches a mere Christianity. Just one. Find one. Give me an example of a church father who has a mere Christianity. Ecclesiology. Show a church father that teaches branch theory. Theory. Because Scam Shamu has the exact same error. He says Coptics, Nestorians, Orthodox, Roman Catholics are all the same church because of his version of branch theory. He just says they're all apostolic. That's just begging the question. Did they say in the first thousand years that all those branches are apostolic? No, they did not.

[Caller/Viewer]

Not

[Jay Dyer]

so. It's deceptive. It's. They're all appealing to lowest common denominator and we are saying the faith is a package deal. There is no lcd. If you wanted to define an lcd, the closest thing you could find is the Niceno Constant Apolitan creed, which when exegeted according to the patristic interpretation of the people who composed it, excludes the Protestants out of hand because they don't believe in Baptismal regeneration and one holy Catholic Apostle. They don't believe them before Marks, so they're automatically excluded. Roman Catholics is a separate topic because we'd have to get into. Because they would agree with us. There's one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, 4 marks. But what that means and whether it's found only in the Roman Sea, ultimately is a separate debate. But just on the face of it, your best approximation of a lowest common denominator, mere Christianity is not. Do you confess the deed of Christ and the Trinity? Well, guess what? If you got the filioque, you don't have the Trinity. It's a different triad. The Augustinian triad is not the Cappadocian triad. And the Church did not accept the Augustinian triad. It accepted the cappadocian1 at Constantinople1. That's the only triad confessed in the later ecumenical Councils. Because they reflect back and say, we agree with the previous councils and their definitions, namely Nicaea and Constantinople 1. That means that 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 are also built on Constantinople 1. The Second Council, which teaches monarchical trinitarianism. And no filioque. That means if you teach filioque, you have departed from Constantinople one's definition. These people send everybody to churches that teach filioque. They don't think filioque matters. So these arrogant people are smarter than all of our Orthodox greats. They know better than all the Orthodox Church fathers and saints. They set themselves up as unapproved, self appointed people under no authority. They even say right here, we don't under an authority. We don't care about that. We don't care about being under some authority. And then if you ask true, he's lying. We got authorities. Okay, who's your authority, Ruslan? My business consultants and the stockholders in my franchise church. Literally, that's what he says. That's his authorities, is his minions.

[Caller/Viewer]

It.

[Jay Dyer]

Christ is the focus, not what your family wants. So. So it's not about what church it is. It's just Jesus, bro. Mormons say it's just Jesus, bro. Can they go to the Mormon Church? All of these people would say no. Why? Because they're not trinitarian. But they say the word Trinity and Jesus. They say, we believe in Father, Son, Holy Ghost. We believe Jesus is Lord. So they say the right words. Oh, so it's not about just the words, it's about what they mean. Well, then that means you can't just say, I believe in Jesus and I'm part of the Church. Because now it depends on what Jesus. Now it Depends on what you mean by one holy Catholic Apostolic. When I was in the Calvinist Church, we would read the Nicene Creed and when I would say one holy Catholic Apostolic, I would say, I would think, well, that means Calvinism because it's the true Reformed theology of the apostles. That was my assumption. Guess what? I was wrong.

[Caller/Viewer]

Wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

The people that wrote it did not mean that. They meant baptismal regeneration. They meant absolute succession. They meant by Catholic, not numbers primarily, but fullness of truth. By holy, they meant producing saints still, for example, they meant the sacraments. There ain't no Calvinist saints. Oh, my first thought. Surely this is not true.

[Caller/Viewer]

True.

[Jay Dyer]

This is lies from the orthodox and the Roman Catholics. It's all lies. Okay, well then I'm gonna go read these people to see 38 volumes of church Fathers. Thousands and thousands of pages. Because I'm serious. I want to know. I don't want to be wrong about this. I don't want to mislead people. Guess what? I was wrong. I was at Bonson Seminary. I was studying Reformed theology. Do you think it was easy to just say I'm wrong about all this? I can't be a Reformed theology person anymore. I wanted to teach at Westminster Reformed Seminary. That's what I wanted to do. Do you think when I was 19, 20 that I'd wanted to just give that up? Of course not. I lost all of my church friends, my Reformed circles. All shunned and excommunicated because it's a false gospel. But looking back, they're actually more consistent than these goofballs because these goofballs act like all of these churches are in the same Protestant communion. They're not. And everybody knows that it's all based on lies. It's all not true. We all know that these people are not in communion. They don't even have communion. What do you. How could a Baptist be in communion with a Lutheran when a Lutheran believes in a real presence and baptismal regeneration? And Baptists think that that's works based salvation. It's. This is not rocket science. This is all obvious. Matthew. Oh, Christ is calling you there. Go. So if Christ is calling me to Joel Osteen's church, I can go? If Christ is calling me to the Mormon Church, on what basis do I not go? Michael, what's up man?

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey Jay, can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yep. Yes.

[Caller/Viewer]

I just wanted to pay homage to my bipoc

[Jay Dyer]

Pope. Call me the Pope. I'm your Pope, dude. Yes.

[Caller/Viewer]

How we doing?

[Jay Dyer]

Awesome. What's on your mind? Don't ask me catechuming questions.

[Caller/Viewer]

My thing is

[Jay Dyer]

don't ask me catechuming questions.

[Caller/Viewer]

All right.

[Jay Dyer]

His phone's not working right. Mugen. What's up Mugatu? What's up? If, if you go there for a little while, it doesn't work out. You want to go back to the Baptist church, go. As long as you're not preaching heresy. What is Michael Jones's definition of heresy? Because he says if you want to go back to the papist church, go ahead. If you want to go to the Protestant church, go ahead. Just don't preach heresy. What is the mark of heresy without a church to tell you? Goofus. What's up?

[Caller/Viewer]

Yeah, how's it going? I mean all this hubbub, all this noise, like it's ridiculous to see all this on my timeline. Like there's so clear slander happening. But like despite the obvious fact that you know who provoked who, it's pretty clear. Like this was a sort of, like it's, it's pretty clear that the slander. No, the God, I forget the name of the guy. But like is any of this actually worth our time? Like I, I understand that maybe we're obligated to address some of these.

[Jay Dyer]

It is. The reason this is worth our time, listen, is because what this does, they don't even realize that when they make this big stink like this, all this does is indicate to the open minded and more intelligent people in their circles that wait a minute, we have a tremendous Achilles heel here, we have some weakness here. Why are we not addressing the theology, the church history, the Bible claims here? We're just immediately going to character assassination, smear tactics, cry bullying, playing victim. And nobody will actually just do the formal debate. The smarter people amongst their audience is all going to see this and they already are because Cleave just did a stream about all the people to reach out to him already inquiring from the frickin Stephen Anderson cult debate. We've got people messaging me of independent fundamentalist Baptists have already come to Orthodox church as a result of that debate. Inquiring doesn't mean they will necessarily convert, but I think many of them end up up will end up convert. So look, this is a series of dominoes. It's the exact same mirror as last year when the Roman Catholics were all melting down over Vatican II lumen gentium nostratate saying they worship the same God as the Muslims realizing what the papacy actually says. That did a huge service, just like the Islamic dilemma has done a huge service to Defeating Dawa. And now everybody's aware of the Islamic dilemma. Then we get the Vatican 2 dilemma, where they're all realizing, hey, wait a minute, we actually have to follow Vatican II saying that we worship the same God as the Muslims and the Hindus. That seems like a problem. Yeah, because it is. And they had a series of meltdowns. They brought on the worst of possible apologist, Trent Dougherty, who had multiple just insane meltdowns and helped us in untold ways with his nonsense. So you better believe that this is all. This is all great. This is all providential. It's actually providential that Ruslan, that idiot caused all of this, and he admitted he caused all it. Now he might be thinking, I'm gonna cause a bunch of drama to get the ortho bros all baited and stirred up, dog. This is not going to go well for you, Ruslan. You will not win this battle. Your channel is already on the downturn. That's why you're Christian. Tmz, you per. You talk about clavicular, because that's all you got. That and your dumb rap church. So this just causes people to say, wait a minute, what is all this hubbub? That's all the more people that are going to come in our direction. And by the way, the dumb, dumb, crazy people, we don't want them, they got to be in a place where they're ready to change their mind. And if they're crazy, double down people, they're not ready so they can stay in that crazy cult world. That's not me being mean. That's me being realistic. If you are still in dunning Kruger mode, you're not ready to become Orthodox. The only way people become orthodox is through humility. The straight and narrow gate is humility. And the problem of being an influencer is you are locked into your channel and your optics and your lcd lowest common denominator. And then it's a problem. Then it's hard to say, you know what? I was wrong. And thank God Cleave and Alex Soren did it before they got big. So they don't understand that the orthodox ethos is that you become churched and catechized and get the orthodox phronema, the mindset that before you go out and publicly do these things, no man takes this honor unto himself. Paul says, you don't just teach because you feel like you like Jesus. And because you were a gangster and you had a crazy testimony. Paul says, do not put a new convert up as a teacher or a bishop or an Authority because they are puffed up. And yet every one of these people has not even converted. They have an idea of Jesus and those propositions are true. But as we've seen all week long, they're sending people to actual heretical sects. Judaizing sex, the very first heresy that the church dealt with even in their Bible. They should know, God logic should know, since he's all about the Bible, that the first heresy the church condemned was judaizing. And he's sending people to judaizing synagogues. Messianic synagogues are not the church. And even worse, the guy was, the former Muslim was being sent to a Messianic synagogue to learn via zoom, to be discipled via zoom. No, no, that's not how this works, dude. You get catechized and baptized as the ancient canon say as we saw in the stream two days ago. In fact, there's no reason why on these guys model, not only can I just choose any church, I can start my own. On what basis can these guys say that if you're a new convert you can't just start your own church? In fact, Gavin Orland seemed to give approval to that that because he said Pentecost means churches just spring up. There's Pentecost. So if Billy Bob creates his strip mall church and he thinks that there's believers only baptism and there's no baptismal regeneration. And ex Muslim Muhammad starts his strip mall church across the street and he thinks there's I don't know, truth in Nestorius's teaching and he creates the Nestorian strip mall church. Who's to say? You can't say. Just don't preach heresy. Michael Jones. What is that? This is so low tier and dumb that it's only for dum dums and we don't mind if they keep the 80 IQ dum dums. Because although salvation is open to everybody, if you're an 80 IQ Dum Dum who has no humility, you're not going to be Orthodox. You're not ready to be Orthodox because you gotta study and learn and, and be in this for a long time. They have a marketing strategy for business church because they're literally built on a business model. How many times I have to tell you this? That's what the streams all week were about. Do you think the apostles created business church? Do you think they had marketing strategies to create a church based around Peter Drucker's corporate philosophy? That alone tells you these people are not correct. It's. This is not rocket science. You don't even have to be that smart. Tristan, what's up? What's up, dude?

[Caller/Viewer]

Hey, what's up, Jay? Can you hear me? I just thought it was funny. You keep talking kind of about, like, how Protestants can't even regulate their own

[Jay Dyer]

heresies in their own churches.

[Caller/Viewer]

There's still 125 Pentecostal United churches that practice snake handling and the serpent seed doctrine, and they're still, like, accepted by the mainline Pentecostal.

[Jay Dyer]

This is a great point. Yeah. So can I go to a snake handling church if they just say Jesus is Lord?

[Caller/Viewer]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, according to these people, yeah, sure. Why not?

[Caller/Viewer]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

What? There's what. As long as they're not preaching heresy. Okay, I ip what is heresy? As long as you're growing in that church. Good.

[David Wood]

That's what.

[Jay Dyer]

That's what's important. Yeah, but a new convert is not. Doesn't have the discernment to know if he's growing in the snake handler church or Joel Osteen's church. Right now we as Christians need to unify, not divide over. Done. Notice that as God logic over there eating his damn casserole on stream. He's agreeing with Michael Jones on this position that you can go to any church. It doesn't matter. You can't. And I'm not saying that because I don't like these people. I wouldn't tell them if I didn't care. If I didn't. If. If I wasn't concerned with what was true over the opinions of men, I would just play nice and be pretended. Nice ecumenist man. Yes, brother. We're all in the same church. I'm also in Gavin's butt buddy church. We're all the same. That would get you the numbers and the clicks. Because it's lcd. Appeal to lcd. That's the whole philosophy here. Again, this is the presupposition. Prove to me there is an lcd. We are rejecting that there is such a thing as mere Christianity. We are saying CS Lewis is false. Anglican branch theory is false. Protestant ecumenism is false. Now show us a person who taught branch theory in the first thousand years. Nobody. Oh, exactly. Combinational issues. Can I just chime in? They all agree. Look, all of these goofballs are sitting here shaking their head yes. It doesn't matter what you believe. Theology just believe in Jesus. Okay, why can I not go to the Mormon church?

[Caller/Viewer]

Church?

[Jay Dyer]

Because I don't believe in Jesus. But that proves the point. Goofus here. Mike, I'm. No, yeah, go ahead. I'm probably going to have the minority take here. So I would say if you start going to an Orthodox church and then and there, and they're spread on this. Some of them are like, yeah, we love your Baptist family. They're still in. And others would be like, well, you know, no salvation outside the one true church. To me, that would be a problem because, you know, the Lord has worked in your life. You know, the Lord has showed up

[Caller/Viewer]

through your Baptist church.

[Jay Dyer]

And if. And if your views start evolving to. It's not so just appeal to subjective argumentation. Did you feel like Jesus was there? Well, there you go. That's all you need. Do you think a Mormon doesn't feel like Jesus was the source of the burning in his bosom? Of course he does. So all Ruslan has is a marketing business strategy approach of whatever you felt, dog, that's good. Go with it, bro. Because it's business church. And Ruslan is an open grifter. He even told you dummies I'm about that money, dog. I need seven figures. I need to get paid, bro. And you dummies just like the Baptist grandmas that send the fake ass. Everybody can see the TV preachers are fake. Can't you see that St. Wigger over here is the new version of that? I'm all about that money. He even tells you this is what psycho narcissists do. They tell you, I'm just here about the money. And he's saying the audience is. So I'll tell them I'm about the money, and they'll still come to business, Church. That's how. That's what he thinks of you. Because if it was about what was true, he would come to a debate, and this dummy said four times he would debate me and then said, but now I'm not going to do it till he repent to me, this dude thinks he's God. By the way, I thought you didn't believe in oral confession. But I got to repent to you. I thought you didn't believe in confessing the priests. I ain't going to confess in a wigger priest. I'm the only wigger priest that's legitimate, bro. So these dummies will tell you the whole. They'll tell you. And this is a thing with criminal psychology. Do y' all not know this? You know that the criminals can't help but brag and throw it in people's faces. That's a. Because they're arrogant and they're prideful and they're so deluded, they have a Comp. They think that they're God right now. They know deep down they're not. But this is the demonic deception that they. That they have, right? They think they can basically get away with and do anything. And what happens in the psychology of people like this is the sort of the. The. I know this is overused, the narcissistic, psychopathic psych, but this is actually true. Especially in the domain of religious leaders and religious people. There's a feature that they have.

[Caller/Viewer]

I need some.

[Jay Dyer]

Because of the pride and because of the delusion, they actually can't help at times but confess it, but state what they're up to and what they really believe. It comes out at times, right? Like when David Wood admits what he did in the past and he smirks about it. Or when Ruslan says, I'm all about that money. I'm here to monetize this audience. I'm here to get paid. Oh, but that was my previous life, bro. Trust me. Me. That was my previous life. Well, the fact that you had a previous life of gangster grifting or whatever supposedly your previous life was doesn't mean that you're fit necessarily to be a, quote, minister. For example, in the Orthodox Church, there's crimes and things in the past that you've done that don't negate the possibility of you repenting and being saved. But it doesn't mean you're fit to be a preacher or a teacher. I would say I lived a partying enough lifestyle in the past that I'm not fit to be a priest. I know I have no desire or interest in being a priest, But all of these people just assume,

[Caller/Viewer]

oh, well,

[Jay Dyer]

I had a conversion experience, bro. I was a gangster. And so now I'm supposed to be a preacher, dog. Says who? Who called you to. To preach? What authority called you to teach and preach? Who? Name one. Seven figures. You know, these are real quotes. These are actual Ruson quotes.

[Caller/Viewer]

I need seven figures. I need seven figures. Cringe core, bro. I got the following. I got 28,000. I got 200,000 on Tik Tok. How do I monetize these people? You know what I mean?

[Jay Dyer]

How do I monetize these people? So notice he tells you to your face what he's up to, and he knows and thinks you're all so dumb and stupid that you will actually still follow him. And you do. Rachel. What's up,

[Caller/Viewer]

A.J.

[Female Caller]

what's up?

[Jay Dyer]

What's on your mind?

[Female Caller]

Well, I was just listening to you talk about what's happening with these guys, and this churchless apologetic stuff. And to me it's, it's the same defense that Nala Ray had, right? Like, oh, yeah, I did these absolutely atrocious things, but the Lord came and changed me. And so now I feel drawn to have this ministry and I'm going to lead people to Jesus. I'm not gonna spend any time figuring out what the true church is, what the different.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, didn't she say she's supposed to be a preacher? Didn't she say I'm supposed to teach

[Female Caller]

and preach now she started selling a Bible study course.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Female Caller]

Where she's going to lead you to Jesus. And this was when she had been literally baptized in a blow up pool in a drive through church maybe two, three months before that. And so she starts selling Jesus merch and you know, for only 25, Nala Ray is going to lead you to Jesus. And she has the same defense that David Wood and Ruslan have. It's like, but Jesus delivered me from what a terrible, awful, horrible person I used to be. And it's like, that's good. None of us would say that's not good. We think that's great. However, that doesn't mean you should be leading anyone to anywhere having a ministry, especially if you're just leading them from Islam into the desert.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Female Caller]

Whatever church, just pick. Whatever. It's like the horoscope. It's almost like the same thing as when women want to do tarot cards or horoscopes. And it's like, I just feel like it's speaking to me and I feel like it's telling me this and I feel like I should be saying, you know, whatever you feel like, if you feel drawn, if you feel this drives me nuts with Protestants, I felt called to do it. Yeah, no, that was probably you. That was probably you going, there's an opportunity for me here to make some money or to be famous, you know, Like, Ruslan wanted to be a rapper. He clearly wanted to be famous and rich. That's what I. What everybody wants. Now everyone thinks they want to be a famous YouTuber or a clown soundcloud rapper.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Female Caller]

And when they're not good enough to do that on their own merits, they go into things like ministry or they go into politics. Right. You want to I'll be a tpusa boss babe. Because I'm not quite hot enough to be an Instagram model.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Female Caller]

Right. So I'll be a tpusa boss babe. It's the same thing. And the problem I have with it is like today all of these self righteous evangelicals are making salvific claims about you and Andrew. Oh, they're not saved.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh yeah, we're all not saved. But if we say that outside the Orthodox church, which by the way, we don't even say that they're not safe because we don't know people's destiny. If we just simply say, you're not in the church. Oh my gosh, Pearl clutch. A meltdown. And by the way, I can't wait until you burn in hell. That was the Baptist comments underneath the debate.

[Female Caller]

Yep, I saw that. And it's like, say what you want. Maybe Jay's mean. Maybe Andrew swears and smokes. Okay, maybe that's all true. But both you and Andrew have the humility. Like you do have a commission to do what you're doing, to do apologetics. Andrew repeatedly tells people, I am in no way qualified to do apologetics. I am not. You know, he's, he's super humble about that stuff. He's like, look, I'll, I'll do some help where I can. If I know that I can do like a logical takedown of somebody's worldview or something to help the Orthodox, I will. But he's like, I do politics and that's dirty business and it takes a thick skin and I am in no way fit to be pastoring Anyone ministering it, like, don't ask me. He always tells people, go watch Jay's channel. Go to the Orthodox discord. And more most importantly, go to an Orthodox church and then attend a liturgy and talk to the priest. Yeah, that's what he says all the time. And, and these people are all out here with heresychurch.com starting their own strip mall church, starting their own online ministry where they don't even have a church. And then they're accusing Andrew of being the, the deluded one or the sinful one who's going to hell. And it's, it's just so backwards. It's totally insane.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, the, the tone deaf self owns are what's so crazy. Like the Protestant guy, you know, who is, you know, literally cussing me out while talking about how you can't say four letter words and he's like, fuck you, you cunt. And I'm like, I thought it was bad to say these words. What are you talking about? But no, if they do it, it's cool, but if you do it, it's bad. Right? So let's listen to a little bit of this debate because this was a big loss for Wood yesterday. And he's having to do cope streams today and then go into. He's going full tinfoil hat mode. That all the ortho bros. The entire Orthodox church now is conspiring with the jihadis because we're so worried and we're so upset that Dawa is dying. Well, I contributed significantly with Scam Shamu to Dawa dying, so that makes no sense.

[Andrew]

Gave you a prompt.

[Female Caller]

Forget the part where Andrew absolutely destroyed Daniel Hikachu earlier this year. Did he forget that too?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but that was all. That was a psyop. That was a scop. Because we all secretly are in league with Daniel Kikachu. You see?

[Caller/Viewer]

I guess.

[Andrew]

And I would prefer to talk about Jay Dyer. You could do that.

[Caller/Viewer]

You know what?

[Andrew]

I'll talk about Jay Dyer with you.

[Jay Dyer]

No, because by the way, notice that David Wood will debate Andrew about me, but would not debate me. I asked him specifically for a formal debate on the topic of ancient church, Church fathers, church history, Bible's view of what the church is. And he said, no, I will not debate.

[David Wood]

You're not really. I mean, answering sometimes.

[Andrew]

Like, what am I not answering?

[David Wood]

If you're answering the prompt, as sometimes in ridiculously insane situations are you. So you're not.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Andrew]

And what is logically inconsistent?

[David Wood]

The affirmative. You're saying yes.

[Andrew]

No, I'm saying sometimes. So can you. Can you tell me. I'm sorry, what did I say? Which was a contradiction or logically unsound? Anything? Nothing.

[David Wood]

Yeah, Just the idea that if someone is wrong about something and you agree with the truth, you are somehow affirming their lie.

[Andrew]

If you know it's a lie, how would you not be? I don't. I don't get that.

[David Wood]

You can affirm the. The truth of the statement regardless of

[Andrew]

their intention, but you do know that they're lying.

[David Wood]

You can know someone is lying, and even though they're lying, they're actually stating what is true. And you can agree with the. The truth of their statement. You don't have to affirm a lie.

[Andrew]

I see. So if it's the case, then let's say a woman gets splashed with acid on her face and her Darwinist brother gets driven there by an Orthodox priest. And on the way, he tells the priest the entire way, man, oh man, she's hideous. And no man's ever going to want her. When he gets to the hospital room, he is moved by his sister's plight and says, sweetheart, you're still beautiful. Should the Orthodox priest go ahead and affirm that lie? What do you think David, should he be like, you know what? He's right, honey, you really are beautiful. What do you think? Or do you think he should, like, reject that and be like, nah, look, you're an ugly. Like, which thing do you think he should do, David?

[David Wood]

Yeah, anything. You actually want to get to that.

[Andrew]

I want to get to this.

[Jay Dyer]

Can you answer the question, please?

[David Wood]

I will grant that lying is acceptable in certain situation or affirming lies in

[Andrew]

certain situations, including with a Darwinist rapist who lies about Christians.

[David Wood]

Yep, sometimes.

[Andrew]

Oh, sometimes.

[David Wood]

I'll just give you. I'll just give you. I'll give you a simple. I'll give you a simple. I'll give you a simple example here that doesn't require all this stuff. Just someone's running down the street, they go one way and, you know, we can affirm a lie that they went a different way. That's going to prevent someone from being killed. Prevent a girl from being killed. Yes, yes, you can do that, that sort of thing. So I got you.

[Andrew]

You can see the prompt. I understand. Yes, I win. The prompt. You can see sometimes it is the case that Orthodox Christian.

[David Wood]

No, because. Because if the topic. If there's an affirmative and a negative, then it's. You're saying sometimes no, so it's same thing.

[Andrew]

I'm sorry, can you show me anywhere that I agreed to take the negative position, A pure negative position anywhere, when I agree to this debate prompt, David. And what's wrong with me taking a sometimes position?

[David Wood]

Then we would agree on a sometimes position. So sometimes.

[Andrew]

Sometimes it is.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so that's the prompt, by the way. But let's see what else goes on.

[Andrew]

Okay. Okay, great. I'm glad. I'm glad that you agree with me and I'm glad that we got very.

[David Wood]

In very weird situations, you're saving someone's life by affirming a lie or something like that. Yeah, fine. Now let's try and figure out the. The range of the situations. Suppose a Dawa guy is in full panic mode because Avery's just wrecking Dawa, like destroying their entire careers and stuff like that. Showing up to their mosques and so on, challenging them, embarrassing them and so on. And for years, one of the things you notice about Dawah is that they. Their first goal, if you bring up an argument, whether it's against Islam or for Christianity, their goal tends to be first and foremost to discredit the person rather than to refute the argument. They're not primarily.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you mean like David Wood has done this whole week where all he's cared about is nothing to do with the critique that I actually made of God. Logic's relativistic ecclesiology, churchless apologetics. What did David Wood immediately go to? Character assassination. Smears his failed ugly buddy Ridvan. Exact same thing in unison. So they do the Muslim tactics because they know that for their Adiq audience of former Muslims, that actually works because they work on emotion. So he's actually insulting his own audience because he knows that they're going to go with the emo thing that moves them and not with what's actually logically consistent or makes any sense. Thus the whole thing, this is all just a deflection away from. Is there such a thing as Churchill's apologetics? That's the whole issue here.

[David Wood]

Interested in refuting the argument or showing a good response they want?

[Andrew]

Yeah, that sounds like typical Darwinist to me. Sure.

[David Wood]

Yep. So they try to discredit.

[Jay Dyer]

It also sounds like like everything that these people have been doing all week long. Which, by the way, Ruslan as well. Right? Ruslan's whole thing has been ortho bros bad, therefore don't become orthodox. They're mean, they're bad. Four letter words. But grifting and saying that you want to have business, church A. Okay, no problem person.

[David Wood]

And so if they can't deal with the arguments and so on, they start saying, well, Avery is a grifter.

[Jay Dyer]

And they lay out, no, no, I can deal with the arguments. That's why I offered any of these people a formal debate on the topics. And you'll notice that I had no fear or problem putting out, which got almost 70,000 views. Formal debate offer. Is evangelicalism the church of history or is Sola Scriptura the case offered to Wes Huff, David Wood, God Logic, Gavin Ortland, IP Frank Turek, Mike Winger, and obviously Ruzon as well. But Ruzon's already said he will not debate because I have to repent to him publicly, which is the gayest, most fake feminist thing you've ever heard of from a male. Dude, even the cholos were calling in last night. Did you guys hear the stream a couple nights ago? Cholos are calling in. Hey, bro, I don't like. I don't like knowing none of the theology or whatever, but like, bro, these dudes is all just soft. Bro, these homies are soft as hell. The cholos can recognize it, but none of you gay evangelicals can. So I will put. I put out the public offers of formal debates right here. And what's the response? Mean? Mean. Evil. Mean. And here he's saying that. That they won't debate God logic because they can't answer the questions. And so they go after his character. Oh, which is everything you guys have done for weeks now. Yeah. So hold yourself to that standard and come to a formal debate.

[David Wood]

Their case for Avery being a grifter, which is that he doesn't spend his time attacking other Christian groups and denominations. And so just.

[Andrew]

So hang on. Just so I'm clear.

[Caller/Viewer]

True.

[Jay Dyer]

So. No, that is not the argument. The argument is not. You have to attack denominations. The argument is that there are no denominations. There are none. There's orthodoxy, and then there's everything else. That is the argument. Now, you may not agree with that, but that's what the argument is. And as I pointed out, I don't just attack the denominations. And these goobers know that. Who have we debated for 10 years? Probably the most debates in the last 10 years? Atheists and Muslims. I have debated more atheists and Muslims last 10 years. Then I have debated Catholics or Protestants. So that's not even true on the face of it.

[Andrew]

You are talking about Jay Dyer again.

[David Wood]

Now, you can use it as a complete hypothetical here. Hypothetical. We're trying to figure out.

[Andrew]

Okay, but that is.

[David Wood]

But.

[Andrew]

But this isn't a hypothetical. This is, in fact what's going on.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[David Wood]

You gave hypotheticals out. Leave Jay Dyer out of it. I'll give a complete hypothetical. So is this a hypothetical, though?

[Andrew]

Because it sounds like you're talking about Avery, who I know. And with a situation that's actually happening.

[David Wood]

That would be an example of the situation. But this happens all the time. This happens all the time. This happened before that. It was happening before that with different people. Right. So you got Sam Shamoon. You got Sam Shamoon helping Malik out and stuff like that. It's a situation that happens over and over.

[Jay Dyer]

Notice, for David Wood, all of this pivots around who's against him. And if Sam Shamoon hates him and they hate each other, and if Sam Shamoon said something to. I don't even know who these Muslim people are. Oh, they're in league now. And it all pivots around David Wood and who's against David Wood when the argument is nothing to even do with him. Initially it was Ruslan, and then. Why is Avery sending people to Mahler's Chat, to Gaslight, an orthodox inquirer into becoming whatever gay rap church they go to. That was the original contention. And then it turns out, well, actually, Avery is sending people to terrible places. So it's even worse than we thought that's the contention. Then the contention is is there churchless apologetics? And what is David Wood concerned with? Why are you all being mean? Why are you linking up in a grand conspiracy with jihadis which is retarded.

[David Wood]

It very common.

[Caller/Viewer]

Sure.

[David Wood]

Yeah. So situation Dawa guy is telling lie to discredit a person so that Muslims don't trust him and hopefully Christians don't even trust him. So to help avoid having to deal with that person's argument.

[Jay Dyer]

So dude, they're doing the exact same thing as Dawa. They are Christian Dawa. They're doing that. That's their whole thing all week long is evangelical Dawa picks up something about

[David Wood]

someone and then should orthodox Christians support that lie? Because they don't.

[Jay Dyer]

The problem is though, I didn't support a lie. Now they allege that this Muslim dude, I forget his name, Orthodox Muslim or whatever his name is. Who I don't know and don't follow. They allege that he has done doxing and he's tried to go after people. I have no reason to believe he has that. That's not true. Maybe he did, I don't know. I haven't looked into that. That is not the same thing as him saying he doubts the anti Islamianity crowd in terms of their sincerity because they do a churchless apologetic. If I say that's true, what does that have to do with all these other things? Nothing. But their whole argument is guilt by association smear tactics. Even though everybody knows most of my the biggest debates I've done are Muslim debates, Muslim lantern Hakikachu and the fresh and fit debate. Millions of views. It's utterly preposterous to say that we would be in league with Muslims. No, no. We are equally opposed to all of these people. That's what they are trying to obfuscate. They're trying to give the impression that we only target people that we're jealous of. I'm not jealous of God logic. I got more Google trend reach than God logic. And I don't even have to do any of this. I do it because I believe it's true. I could just do geopolitics and comedy streams. I don't have to do this, but I do it because I do believe it's true. And guess what? Now that we get more and more people out here, now that we're getting Cleaves, we're getting Alex Sorens, we're getting more people in the space that's less of this stupid stuff I have to do. I'm talking about deal with all these goober evangelicals, which is my least favorite thing to do. I don't know who's worse to deal with, evangelicals or Muslims. It's about equal.

[Caller/Viewer]

Equal.

[Jay Dyer]

Because they have about the same tier.

[David Wood]

Let's say they don't like the person.

[Andrew]

Yeah. In this hypothetical, I would say they should not. But it's purely hypothetical, of course.

[David Wood]

Okay. So that's good to know. So.

[Andrew]

But it's just baked into the hypothetical. But let me ask you a different hypothetical. Avery does not actually tell us, like you don't what your Christian denominations even are. None of you guys actually tell anybody that. So inductively. I understand why it is that Jay thinks that you're trying to cast the widest net possible in order to capture the largest amount of audience that you possibly can.

[Caller/Viewer]

Correct.

[Jay Dyer]

This is mere Christianity. And this is literally. This is not just Andrew's assessment. Remember, this is literally what Peter Drucker, the father of business church, it's a real thing said to do. Shout out to Gusta, our author bro from Dan under Ghosta sent me a hell load of crap proving all of these people follow Peter Drucker. Who is Peter Drucker? He is, according to Rick Warren, the granddaddy of the business church model. I played those clips numerous times on the previous streams. I'm not going to play them again. Peter Drucker is this old goofy boomer man. Maybe he was great generation, I don't know. And he was not a believer. He was just a business person. He's like Lee Iacocca. Just a business. He's a Warren Buffett. Okay. And he said, I like the business model of church. Right. Randy Balls. And he said, you know what you could do? You can apply the corporate tactics and techniques of managerial theory. He was a management theorist like. Like Taylor. Taylorism. Right. He was into Taylorism, all that kind of stuff. He said you could apply those techniques to make the church a much more efficient, successful business. He openly said this. This was his whole thing. And he was the guru to Rick Warren, Purpose driven life. Rick Warren, That Rick Warren? The same one whose wife became a preacher. Big old fat fake feminist and who under Obama was pro skittles marriage. And then he went to Davos. So just a covert, literally a member of the council, formally just a covert leftist creates saddleback. Or is that highballs? They're both. Whether it's or. Or Rick Warren or whoever, whatever. They're both students of Peter Drucker, this atheist boomer businessman. So Andrew is 100%, spot on. That the model of all of those people. And I don't know if David Wood even knows who Drucker is. I didn't know who Peter Drucker was until Guster sent me all this information because he, for whatever reason, knows all about the history of the mega church movement and all that, the emergent church movement. And then these people like, for example, Ruslan's Rhythm Church. That's a business marketing strategy model. Ruslan even tells you it's business church. That model you stick, you plug it into your flavor, right? Like biker church, cowboy church, surfer church. Those are all real things. That's a Peter Drucker style thing, although just at a niche, smaller level. Right. So you, you craft and create a church around the target audience and to have the most effect, according to Peter Drucker, you have the least amount of doctrines, the least amount of moral claims and rigor, so that you cast the broadest net that the more universal and less dogmatic Peter Drucker said, the better it is for business. That's actually what he said. So that's exactly what is going on.

[Andrew]

Order to gain money. That inductively makes sense to me. Is it true? I wouldn't say that it's true. I don't think that Avery does that. I don't think that that's the kind of guy he is.

[Jay Dyer]

But briefly, I want to address this point because Shamoon Shamu brought it up on his stream. He said he doesn't think Avery is bad, has malicious money motives. Andrew's concurring that. That he doesn't have bad malicious motives. I have no interest or concern or knowledge of his motives per se. However, if a person continues to be neutral and says, I don't have any church affiliation, and we continually point out why that doesn't work and doesn't make sense, as we have been doing. By the way, this is not all just recent. Okay, so we've had friends in the background speaking to God logic for at least a couple years trying to move him in this direction. Okay. We've had friends helping him with monarchical trinitarianism. So he's learned a lot of things from Dr. Bo Branch.

[Andrew]

Right?

[Jay Dyer]

That's great. But it is not wrong for us to say you can't do monarchical trinitarianism outside of the Orthodox Church, because that's what's confessed at Constantinople 1. There is no monarchical trinitarianism or essence energy distinction that's divorced from the sacraments of the Church. Again, get Nicholas Cabaselas's book, Life in Christ. The whole book is about the mystery. Mysteries. You're not living the Christian life outside the mysteries. That's the point of that book you need. It has nothing to do with your sincerity. Nobody's saying that you didn't sincerely convert to Jesus. When I was a Calvinist, when I was a Roman Catholic, I was sincere, but I was sincerely wrong. And that's the thing that we have to point out here is that it's not a popularity game. We're not. We're not trying to be most popular class superlative here. It's a question of can you actually teach trinity and Jesus without sacraments and ecclesiology, simple proof. No, you can't. Because the body is his body. The actual church is his body. So you can't have bodiless Jesus, just this floating head like Zardoz. You ever seen Zardoz with Sean Connery in his underwear? Go watch it. By the way, I did an esoteric analysis of it, but the whole thing is these giant floating heads that the tribes worship as a God because they're heads. Oh, is Jesus just a giant floating head without a body?

[Caller/Viewer]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Jesus's body is all the different thousand crazy sex. No, they're not. Jesus said that he would send the Holy Spirit to lead and guide the church into truth. The spirit is not the author of confusion. If all of the thousands of sex were part of the body, then the Holy Spirit would be the author of confusion. Because who the hell knows what heresy is amongst all these different crazy groups.

[Andrew]

Inductively, I can't say that Jay has an unreasoned position, even if I disagree with it. What you've done is you've taken it a step further. Step further. Though you have said that Jay is purposely colluding with Darwinist rapists in order to undermine you even.

[Jay Dyer]

Which is a smear tactic.

[Andrew]

All that happened, in fact, is that he agreed with a specific set of propositions and then you got Upsteady spaghetti. That Darwinist decided that they were going to use that against you. Like that's Jay's problem.

[David Wood]

Yeah. The fact that you. I mean, of all the people in the world that you could agree with, you agree with the guy who's. Let's just. I mean, I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

So remember, David Wood is supposed to be Dr. David Wood. An academic. Academic should know before anyone else that it's a logical fallacy to say that because I agree with somebody's tweet, I am therefore on board with. Board with their Muslim worldview. It's such a crazy, just such a basic informal fallacy that it blows my mind.

[David Wood]

I don't know how anyone would disagree with this if you are, but I

[Jay Dyer]

actually think that David Wood, because I've met tons and tons of PhDs and academics, many of them actually don't know basic. They don't actually know the fallacies. So it's entirely possible that David Wood actually doesn't know that that's a fallacy. But also I'm skeptical because I think that this shows that he's actually kind of malicious.

[David Wood]

If you are so obviously and so obviously enraged as someone that you just go after his wife and so on, probably not the most unbiased source of enlightenment information on someone. And then if you go out and agree with that person, with that person on his next attack on Avery, which, which you can read in the. You can. You can read in the content.

[Jay Dyer]

I would add too. I don't even know who this Muslim dude was. I've never interacted with him that I can recall. And no, I don't keep up with every Muslim out there. I know Jake and Daniel and Shake, what's his face, Shabir Ali. Those are the Muslims that I know that I've interacted with Sneako and Muslim lantern Nazam, Gafur, and I think that's the only Muslims I've ever actually interacted with. The rest of them, I don't know who they are. I don't follow them. And I'm telling you can. I don't care whether you believe or not. I don't even. I didn't even know the. The backstory drama of what this person has supposedly done is in response to the Ortho bros.

[David Wood]

He's offering you guys something. He's trying to get you to agree with him. He's saying, hey, ortho bros, I see your. I see you're mad at Eve, by the way.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't doubt that. I mean, it's entirely possible that this person has bad motives, right? Like, I would default probably agree Muslim, whoever this orthodox, whatever this guy's name is, he probably does have bad motives because many of them do. But if that's going to be the basis, then I could never agree with David Wood because what if I think David Wood has bad motives? Again, that'd be like saying, I can't agree with my math professor who's an atheist, who I think has bad motives because my math professor is teaching me the Pythagorean theorem. And if I agree with the Pythagorean theorem, when the math professor says it, then I'm now an atheist and I'm on board.

[David Wood]

It's just so stupid right now. Yeah, that's because he's a. Guess what? He's a grifter. This is what. And he says. He says this and then you affirm it. This is this. It's not.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, when Jake Brentella, Rock whatever his name is, when Jake said to Fearless Truth Nick, who I love Fearless Truth Nick, I'm not a hater. When he said, you have to say that the theophanies are uncreated, I have to say it's intellectually dishonest. If I say Jake is wrong, I'm just going to agree with Nick no matter what on that proposition. Jake is correct. Theophanies are uncreated according to the Palamite synods and say, Gregory Palamas. So intellectual honesty is what's at root the question here. And you have to be intellectually honest. If I said papists teach that popes are impeccable, that would be intellectually dishonest, because they don't teach that. I've never argued that. They teach that the papacy is impeccable. That means sinless. They teach that it's infallible and indefectible. Not that the Bishop of Rome is sinless. Right, but. So it would be intellectually dishonest to not do that. So I'm not even talking about Steel Manning, I'm just talking about basic intellectual honesty. You have to be fair even if you hate a person. This is how debate works. Even if you think they're the worst person ever. Think about this. We all know Judas was for a time an apostle and commission to go out and teach. Right? He went out with the rest of the apostles. Okay, Did Judas say true propositions? Yeah. Did he say some false ones? I'm sure he probably did. But when he said true ones, were they still true, regardless of it being Judas? Obviously. And so by that argument, all of the other apostles and even Jesus himself who commissioned Judas and Jesus knew by the way all the time, the whole time, that he was stealing from the money coffer and was a deceiver. So I guess Jesus was actually in league with Judas because he allowed Judas to teach and preach and by silence perhaps, or by perhaps even affirmation, agreed with Judas's true propositions. Think how stupid this is. This is supposed to be an academic. Every academic is supposed to know that it's a fallacy to say that to agree with a person's proposition Means that you accept their whole worldview. I make arguments using David Hume's Skeptical Challenges on epistemology all the time. Does that mean I'm a human? Of course not. By the way, a lot of dumb people think that. They think that I'm a human skeptic because I use an argument that he uses about atheists being more consistent. That is using a person's argument dummy doesn't mean I have their worldview. So this is so wildly low tier that I have to think that all these Protestants with their prot slop are literally just shoveling out pure bullcrap to their ADIQ audience to keep them on the hook with emotional appeals and emo crybully tactics because they can't actually just do a simple formal debate on a topic of was the church of the first thousand years Protestant? It's a very simple. I mean look, if these dudes are so smart. This guy's a PhD. I don't have a PhD. He's got a PhD then it should be easy mop up job. It should be a just knock down down. Yeah, this guy's Jay Dyer's an Internet should be super easy. Just come blow him over. Prove your mere Christianity. Find me a church father that teaches mere Christianity. I know CS Lewis has it. I know Anglicans have branch theory. Find me a church father that teaches branch theory. It doesn't exist. And again, this goes back to as Shamu pointed out the other day, all David Wood knows is anti Islam. That's it. And he's good at that. I've shared his videos. I've said, yeah, he's got a great look. Think about this. When I share David woods arguments against Islam, does that mean I'm adopting David woods churchless evangelicalism? By his logic, it is. How stupid this is.

[David Wood]

Like they just independently come to come to.

[Andrew]

You're just saying the same. You're not actually demonstrating this claim though. You're not showing how exactly Dyer is responsible because he believes this thing.

[David Wood]

Right?

[Andrew]

And somebody gave him a specific set of propositions he agreed with. He said bingo. How it is that he's emboldening them or gave them permission to use this in order to hurt Christians everywhere.

[Jay Dyer]

This is what the left. This is the tactic of the left where it's just all the time guilt by association. Oh, you talk to Fuentes. You're a neo in. Oh, you had Dan Bilzerian on. Alex had him on. Oh, you must be a neo in right? Even though CNN had freaking what's his face David Duke. So D CNN has David Duke on for decades to argue with people. Oh, there you go. CNN is promoting ne. You see how like nonsensical. And everybody's been calling out the left, including the evangelical sphere. These e apologists, they've been calling out the left too, for a long time. The left supports Islam.

[Caller/Viewer]

They're.

[Jay Dyer]

They're in league. The. The Brown Green alliance, the Red Green alliance. Right. So it's guilt by association when everybody else does it. But here is David. I think David Wood knowingly is doing the Saul Alinsky style tactic to say that you're all part of a collective guilty group now because of xyz. I mean, do they're saying it? I was on Piers Morgan today. Today's debate on Piers Morgan, which will be out tomorrow, was about Shane Gillispie at the roast of Kevin Hart. Because the whole Internet is saying that who cares if Pete Davidson makes jokes about Charlie Kirk being assassinated because XYZ racist joke by Shane Gillis. That's so race. This is everything in the leftist mind is an inversion where straining at gnats and swallowing camels. The worst sins. Being butt buddies with everybody. Be butt buddies with your family. Nothing wrong with it. You and your uncle are butt buddies. Awesome. Cool, dude. Oh, but do you say a four letter word? Did you make a black joke? Pearl clutch into the world?

[David Wood]

No, no, no, no, no. They were.

[Caller/Viewer]

They were baiting.

[David Wood]

They were baiting you. They were baiting you guys into agreeing with them. They were baiting them into agreeing with

[Andrew]

you and then you did it. Calm down.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Andrew]

Whatever you think the nefarious evil trap was that Jay Dyer got sprung on him is irrelevant. Whether or not he agreed to a specific set of propositions because he agreed with them and then that's used against you. You don't.

[Jay Dyer]

Andrew is not even an academic, which is amazing because Andrew is actually presenting the attitude of academia, which is supposed to be that you don't smear the person because they said something. That's true. Even if you disagree with their worldview. You. I mean, it's like the roles are actually reversed here. That Andrew's the actual academic here versus David Wood with the PhD who doesn't even apparently know that this is a. A basic fallacy.

[Andrew]

Like it. I get that, but you haven't demonstrated how Jay's now siding with him. Jay considers, because he's an orthodox apologist, he doesn't consider most of the online Christians to be any better than most of the Muslims. He considers them to be Protestants, just like they are dogmatically he might think that they have better moral propositions because they do. And I think he would agree that they do. But that doesn't mean that dogmatically he thinks that they're correct. His great commission is to go, after all false dogma.

[Jay Dyer]

And that's why we debate atheists, Muslims, Protestants, cult leaders, black cube, Israelites, Stephen Anderson, cult, Roman Catholics. We debate everybody. We're equal opportunity offenders. And if it was a targeted thing, then this would have some weight. But it has no weight to include yours.

[Andrew]

Apostate prophets, all of the Darwinists, all of the Muslims, in fact everybody who's not orthodox. That's his commission. That's what he's there to do. That includes Avery. That includes Avery. Avery. Now again, I like Avery. It's not my commission, by the way.

[Jay Dyer]

I like Avery too. And notice that all of this has turned into who likes who. I like Tim Gordon. Shout out to Tim Gordon in the chat. Tim Gordon stepped up to the plate and did debates. I respect that. It's just there's no respect when people have these extreme dogmatic, anti dogmatic positions and then won't do a debate but will cry and scream all day long about smear tactics and smearing me, which I don't like it. I don't know what they think it's going to do. Like it doesn't bother me. I've been called names every day on the Internet. I don't care. Do you think when I called the atheists the gaytheists and there was that got millions of views, went viral and all the atheists were talking about me and all this kind of nonsense and Reddit was going crazy, like I don't care. Would I be doing this if I was? I don't care. So it's not about popularity contest. And again, Andrew's point here is even if you disagree, you think we're wrong, which I'm sure many a lot of the audience thinks we're wrong in this point. Okay, but is it inconsistent with what our position is? No, it's not right. If you're orthodox, you have a commission, you believe that the Orthodox church is the one true church. Doesn't mean there's no grace outside the church, doesn't mean we're making definitive statements about individual salvation. We don't know that. We're not told that. But we do believe that we have a duty to tell people that you got to become or orthodox. And that's the thing that's made everybody so mad. They're so mad that we won't just willy nilly say, yeah, dude, doesn't matter what church you go to. You just heard IP say go to the Mormon. If you now, he didn't say Mormons. He said, go. Go to the if you want to be Baptist, be Baptist. He says, if you want to be Catholic, be Catholic. Excuse me. There's a huge difference between those two. So it doesn't matter whether I'm Baptist or Catholic. What? I mean, technically, theologically, Catholics are way closer to orthodox, obviously, than Baptists. So in whose right mind would that make sense at all? It doesn't matter what church you go to. Pick any of them. That's what he said. I'm like, what? And I don't dislike Michael Jones. We've had several podcasts where we got along and had great conversations. None of this has anything to do with whether I like the people or personal issues. It's not. It's none of that. I'm not jealous of Avery. My numbers are more than Avery's. I'm not talking about subscribers. I'm about the Google trends. And I had.