Pt 1 UFO's, the OCCULT, & ALIEN ABDUCTION | ‪Jay Dyer‬ | Analyzing the Most Important Abductee Story

Summary

Podcast Summary: Pt 1 UFO's, the OCCULT, & ALIEN ABDUCTION | Jay Dyer | Analyzing the Most Important Abductee Story

Podcast: Jay'sAnalysis
Host: (B) Tristan (presumed from context), with guest Jay Dyer (C)
Date: August 13, 2026
Episode Focus: Dissecting Whitley Strieber’s "Communion" and the Cultural & Occult Roots of Alien Abduction Narratives

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Overview

This episode explores the deep connections between the alien abduction phenomenon—specifically through the lens of Whitley Strieber’s influential 1987 book "Communion"—and the occult, ritual abuse, and techniques of mind control. Jay Dyer joins Tristan for a wide-ranging discussion punctuated by humor, banter, and incisive cultural critique. Together, they analyze the psychological, religious, and conspiratorial underpinnings of UFO abduction narratives, scrutinize the role of figures like Budd Hopkins, and connect the dots between occult ritual, hypnosis, MK Ultra, and popular culture.

Main Theme:
A critical examination of alien abduction stories, with special attention to the intersection between occult practices, ritual abuse, mind control, and the shaping of public mythology. Particular focus is given to Whitley Strieber’s "Communion"—its content, influence, and the techniques/worldview it introduces.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Banter [17:12–31:00]

• Setting the Stage: Tristan and Jay banter about stream setup and joke about "going to space," Fred Durst references, and caffeine intake, creating a lively, irreverent tone.
• Personal Connection: Tristan recounts childhood exposure to UFO literature:
  “...I was just a youngin... reading about this stuff... I would go to the library and I'll go to the weird section where they've got all the alien books and cryptids and UFOs... and I just read all those books, everything I could find.” [34:00]
• Significance of Communion: Stresses the cultural impact of the book, especially the iconic cover art of the “gray alien,” which shaped public visual imagination of aliens.

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2. Breakdown of "Communion" & Whitley Strieber’s Story [35:00–62:00]

• Origins and Writing of Communion:

  • Whitley Strieber, previously a sci-fi/fantasy writer, experienced "writer’s block" and subsequent inexplicable events at his cabin, blending elements of fantasy, fiction, and purported reality.
  • “He starts to blend like fantasy and fiction in reality...” [17:11–36:00]

• Analysis of the Initial Account:

  • Tristan notes that the story’s details are “not really that strange” at first, but Strieber quickly seeks out "experts" after his unusual experience.
  • Role of Budd Hopkins: The abstract artist becomes a central connector among abductees; his influence is questioned:

    “...when you start to look at the alien abduction phenomenon is almost all this stuff is known through hypnotic regression... all these encounters are recanted to us through the lens of a shrink... one of the common connectors is a guy called Bud Hopkins.” [36:00]

    • Implication: Suggests an overlap with mind control and occult techniques rather than literal space aliens.

• Hypnosis as a Method:

  • Jay highlights that “almost all” abduction memories emerge through hypnotic regression, a process vulnerable to suggestion and manipulation.
  • “...if you just have a basic grasp... in how, like, psychopaths work, when you're reading something like this, when you're reading Whitley Streber's Communion, you're just... red flag after red flag popping up... especially this Bud Hopkins guy.” [48:00]

• Contradiction and Narrative Manipulation:

  • Repeated contradictions and inconsistencies in Strieber’s writing suggest either poor editing or a fragmented/delusional grasp on events.

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3. Occult Connections & Ritual Abuse Parallels [41:00–53:00]

• Occult Initiations and SRA Parallel:

  • Jay draws detailed parallels between Strieber's account and historical/occult ritual abuse:

    “A lot of these ancient techniques of ritual initiation, these... temple cults... traumatize and initiate people in the ancient world through these kinds of ritual but actions... Crowley... specifically includes that around the 10th or 11th degree, that there's this initiation that pertains to... the anus...” [41:00]

  • Suggests that what appears as alien abduction is “representing of the ancient pagan demonic religions,” with overlaps to satanic ritual abuse (SRA).

• Disinformation & Targeting the Vulnerable:

  • Discussion of “Mirage Men” documentary and the deliberate selection of psychologically vulnerable individuals to seed public UFO narratives.

  • “...they would actually pick and profile psychologically weak, defective, narcissistic people... and he even gives the impression that they're like intentionally disinformation engines. So now I'm starting to think, oh, well, that's what Whitley is.” [53:00]

  • The mythos is enforced by repetition and the use of trusted "experts."

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4. Mind Control & MK Ultra Technology [53:00–67:00]

• Hypnosis, Drugs, and Electronic Weaponry:

  • The viability of mind control using hypnosis, drugs (e.g., BZ, scopolamine), and ELF/VLF frequency weaponry (both discussed as plausible methods of inducing experiences described by abductees).
  • Jay mentions Esther Brooks and classic MK Ultra papers demonstrating the ability to create “hypnotic couriers”:

    “...he claims that he can create the hypnotic couriers... I embedded this information in the altars and I created the keywords... it's cited in the literature. Like this is accepted as something plausible.” [66:42]

• Role of Suggestion & Cult Formation:

  • The "chosen one" motif is common—targeted individuals are told they have a unique, world-saving mission.

    “...you're the Chosen one, you have a special message for mankind. This is a consistent thing that these abductees start to think...” [67:29]

• Cohesive Mythos Construction:

  • The “alien” phenomenon becomes a self-reinforcing social/cultural myth—“canonical” aliens, abduction themes, and even the visual details trace back to early abductee works like Strieber’s.

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5. Occultism, Scientism, & Modern Mythology [72:00–109:00]

• Blurring Science & Occult:

  • The 20th century saw a convergence of rocket science, occult ritual (Crowley, Parsons, OTO), and new American mythologies (science fiction, UFOs).
  • Examples from Jack Parsons, L. Ron Hubbard, and Aleister Crowley are explored at length, including their rituals, cult dynamics, and contribution to the “alien” narrative.

    “...when Jack Parsons would get up in these OTO meetings... do the invocation to Pan... He believed that... these spirits, aliens weren't like a big thing canonically back then, but they really saw as, like, we're contacting the gods.” [83:00]

  • Occult rituals, mind-altering substances, and sexual initiations are discussed as historical precursors to “abduction” experiences.

• Mind Control/Disinformation as Statecraft:

  • L. Ron Hubbard’s connection to intelligence and the use of cults as intelligence tools are discussed; references to Scientology acting as a “cut out.”

• Cultural Transmission in Post-Soviet Space:

  • When state atheism receded, a rapid proliferation of cults, UFO religions, and new age movements occurred in post-Soviet societies—echoing developments in the US.

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6. The Psychological Impact — Trauma, Ecstasy, & Suggestibility [106:21–end]

• Religious Ecstasy & Trauma:

  • Tristan reads passages from Strieber that clearly describe religious/ecstatic experiences, possibly induced by ritual trauma or mind control, not extraterrestrial intervention:

    “...as soon as I relaxed, it was as if I had opened a hatch into another world... This was not memory... what was being born was... a living, aware force. And I had a relationship with it...” [106:21]

• Symbols & Archetypes:

  • The triangle and other symbols appear during “visitations,” echoing occult and psychological archetypes.

• Societal Function of “Alien” Cults:

  • The cult appeals to trauma survivors’ need for narrative and meaning, reinforcing new identities through “alien,” “special” experiences.

  • “...they're experimenting and playing with, how can I create and steer this guy into a worldview and then create an alien cult or something like that... that gives meaning to their life when they have a trauma and... now they need a new story to make sense of everything. That's where the cult step in when people are damaged and traumatized.” [73:12]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Occult Ritual and Alien Abductions

“...Crowley is drawing up the degrees for his OTO, he specifically includes that around the 10th or 11th degree, that there's this initiation that pertains to... the anus. And he calls that... the eye of Horus is far superior to the mouth of Venus...”
(Jay Dyer, 41:00)

On the Construction of Public UFO Mythos

"This guy's depiction of the alien, what it looked like, has become basically the canonical... what you're supposed to believe aliens look like..."
(Tristan, 55:11)

On Mind Control and Suggestibility

“...what I found really interesting too... we've got the cosmic Cosby Crowley booty play going on.”
(Tristan, 65:26)
(Humorous but underlining the uncanny echo between occult ritual, abuse, and abduction narrative.)

On the “Chosen One” Pattern

“...you're the Chosen one, you have a special message for mankind. This is a consistent thing that these abductees start to think, you're chosen, you're going to tell everybody...”
(Jay Dyer, 67:29)

On Trauma and New Narratives

“That's where the cult step in, when people are damaged and traumatized.”
(Jay Dyer, 73:12)

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Key Timestamps for Important Segments

• [17:12] Start of core discussion and banter; personal backgrounds.
• [34:00] Tristan’s childhood with UFO literature.
• [35:00–36:00] Introduction to Communion and Strieber’s narrative approach.
• [41:00–43:16] Jay’s exploration of occult ritual abuse and powerful quote about Crowley’s OTO.
• [48:00–50:00] Dissection of hypnotic regression and Budd Hopkins’s role; discussion of psychiatric manipulation.
• [53:00–55:00] The Mirage Men thesis: vulnerable individuals as targets for disinformation.
• [67:00–68:00] Elaboration on hypnotic suggestion and “chosen one” narrative.
• [73:12] How cults form and prey on the traumatized.
• [82:00–99:00] Deep-dive into OTO, Parsons, Hubbard and the merging of occult, intelligence, and cults.
• [106:21–end] Psychological effects; religious ecstasy and epistemic dissolution.

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Conclusion

The episode demystifies the alien abduction phenomenon, showing it as a complex intersection of occult ritual, trauma, psychological manipulation, and cultural myth-making, rather than straightforward extraterrestrial encounter. Through the prism of "Communion", Jay Dyer and Tristan illustrate the often-overlooked but essential overlap between cult formation, statecraft, mind control experiments, and the ongoing shaping of collective narratives in modern society.

Stay tuned for part two and future episodes, which promise deeper dives into related topics with equally rich, critical analysis.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

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[C]

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[C]

Whoa.

[B]

Oh, I didn't know I was.

[C]

There we go.

[B]

Turn off the music. Bigots and bigots. Oh, my goodness. We're going to space. We're going to space. You gotta do the Fred Durst voice Chocolate Biplox starfish and the alien pro flavored water. What is this? What is this Bank? Because I took a break from scamming for this. All right, we got. We got Jay Dyer joining us soon. We're going deep. We're going deep tonight. I had to start a little bit early. I had to get that raid. Our friend Jay. Big shout out to our friend Jay J. Dire, the hot dog flavored water here in. Here in Wigsanthium. You got to represent wigs. Anthea, when you got. When you got Jay Dyer coming on. But all right, here we go. Here we go. I got. I got my setup. How you guys like it? How you big. It's like. It's been a long time since I've done regular stuff, but as promised, many times in the past, but for real this time, there will be regular. Much more regular live streams. I got my. I got my dark tan and oil. Got my dark tan and oil. Literally nobody gets that reference. One person in the chat. Priest, please tell me that you get the reference. One person. Fred Durst voice. Aliens and Jay Dyer cooking Jay Dyer in the hot dog flavored, angling in water. Slow boy whiteboard. What's up? We got the. We got everybody in the chat. I had to go make some. I had to start a little bit late. Well, I started a little bit early, and then I had to start a little bit late because I had to go make my coffee. I had to get properly caffeinated. This caffer's got to get caffeinated. I think I'm. I already had a couple nice cups of coffee today, so this is. This is my third. We're going cr. We're going hard tonight, folks. We're going. We're going cosmonaut. I've got cosmonaut level caffeination happening right now. Cosmonaut level caffeination. Oh, now Jay wants it. Look at that. Jay thinks. Jay thinks he's gonna. All right. No, actually, there we go. Jay's ready. Jay's ready before. Before I am. He had to go eat his. Had to go eat his chicken nuggies. Jay ate his chicken nuggies, and he's here right away. I thought I was gonna have to banter with you guys and just do Fred's Earth's voice. Fred's Earth's voice. Let me get the link for Jay, though, so. But we're gonna have fun tonight, guys. We're talking aliens. We're talking. We're talking space. Talking abductions. UFO abductions. This is kind of an interesting topic to me, though, on the reals, on the. On the reels. This is what actually started my journey to Wigartha and ultimately to Wig Xanthium. The. No, but no joke. The. The whole alien abduction thing. I was reading about this stuff when I was. When I was just a youngin. I was just a. When I was young, dumb and full of the next line in that Film, which it just feels gross to say. It's a great line, but I'm not gonna say the line. If you get the reference, you also get bonus points. You get to become an honorary member of the channel, if you know what. That's from the Greatest film of 1991. 2. When did that come out? All right, I got the link here for Jay. Coming over here to Jay in the chat. Thanks for the Ray J. That was awesome, dude. I'm glad we made that happen. Shout out to our friend Jay Dyer. Everybody. Everybody in the chat knows Jay Dyer because pretty much everyone just came here from Jay Dyer's channel. So if you're not already subscribed to this channel here, there's a fun back catalog of me and Jay just absolutely mogging each other. And it's really. It's in. It's not fully determined who's going to win this mogul. This mog fest is about to happen with chief diva, chief executive, diva of the Internet, Jay Dyer. You have to say his name. Like, if they say his name too many times when you're debating Jay Dyer, I've realized that's the Kryptonite. I've actually realized that's the Kryptonite. So, yeah, but we're talking about UFOs. We're talking about. We're going to talk about Whitley Strieber and his book, which unfortunately, I don't have the COVID The COVID is crazy Communion. Actually, this. The COVID for this book. The COVID for the book Communion by Whitley Strieber is more influential than the actual content of the book. And the content is really culturally significant as far as kind of framing the mythos of alien abductions, so called alien abductions and all of that. Jay, you have the link in your Twitter right now, by the way, bro. But the book itself and the content of it is not as good as the COVID Let's see. The COVID art actually had this. This was the COVID art. That alien. Actually, no, that's my cover art. That's my beautiful. My beautiful wigs Antium artwork right there. Sometimes coffee's so good, you just want to smell it. You just want to smell it. You got a good geisha. You need a good geisha. You just want to smell that thing. But that alien right there, that alien which is just looking sus. Looking. Looking so sus. Looking sultry. I mean, Whitley Strieber. We're gonna get into some of the quotes here for Whitley Strieber's book. Whitley Streaver saw that face and he was like, he's like, that's a lady. That's a lady alien. So we are. That's what we're talking about today, guys. Whitley Strieber, who was kind of a science fiction writer, fantasy sort of book writer, somewhat fledgling novelist in the 1980s, and he was working on some books and was hitting writer's block, right? And he discusses this a little bit in the beginning of Communion when he had certain experiences which, when he describes them, interestingly enough, they just happen to k. Take a step back. Step back a sentence. When he writes about this in Communion, it kind of starts to blend. He starts to blend like fantasy and fiction in reality. Here we go. I'm admitting Jay Dyer now. Sorry, Multitasking here. Brasil, Bras and sis in the chat. Here we go. Oh, no. J. Dyer, you hear me? I'm not hearing you yet. Can you hear me? Come over here. We got Jay on the screen. You guys know they know he's here. So they're not all going to rage, quit and. And mass flag my channel for spamming them that they get to see Jay Dyer. But we can't hear you yet. Just can't hear you. Says that you're unmuted on your thing, so it should be. Feel like I should be hearing you, but I'm wondering if it's on my end. If it's on my end. I think I could. Okay, yeah. I tend to default to blaming everything on my life on Jay. All right. This is way better. I just get to talk to this guy. I bet this guy's going to agree with everything I have to say. It's just me here now. It's just me here, folks. The big boys don't want Jay Dyer to enter the chat. Folks, this is Alan Watt. Going back to the 2000s conspiracy culture.

[A]

They're all.

[B]

There's all big club, folks, and Jay Dyer's at the top of the club. Jay Dyer in the Top of the Pops. I'm not in the club, but Jay Dyer is, Folks. I still don't hear you, brah. Let me see, let me see, let me see. What if I. I'm wondering if it's just because I'm using. What's going on here. Now? I still cannot hear you, Jay. Sorry. We're gonna get this, though. It says that the audio is coming through on Google Meets. That's what's very strange. So this is working in Google Meet. So it's not your fault. This is not. I can't just blame Jay Dyer like I do. Most problems that I Have. Let me see if I can come and join this meeting. Switch account. I'm gonna just kind of. I'm gonna see if I can just switch my browser and use a different browser, and that'll probably be working. All right, let me see if this works. I'm going to enter in with a different. And a different thing if I have to restart the meeting. Forgive me. So everybody in the audience, we got. The thing is, you can't keep a diva waiting too long. He's got people waiting. There's. There's a whole machinery that's waiting. There's a. The J. Dyer machine cannot stop. So he'll. He'll literally just go to like Tim Pool or something, right?

[A]

Like, he's.

[B]

He could just jump on. He could just show up at Tucker's studio anytime. Tucker's like, oh, please be j. D.

[C]

Let's do it.

[A]

J. D. Here.

[B]

Oh, there we go. I got you.

[C]

Can you hear me?

[B]

I got you. Yeah, you eating like a bipoc queen. All right, here we go. Wait, now. But they. You know what they see? They just see Elron Hubbard looking super Susan.

[C]

That's funny.

[B]

And I feel like I should keep it that way so you can finish your meal and they could just hear you eating. They're just going to see. All right, well, we're going to start the debate or not.

[C]

Because

[B]

you're.

[C]

You're pro alien abduction.

[B]

Yeah. Well, I think we should all aim to be like, dude, I'm not giving away my position. You're going to have to hear me out, bro. You're going to hear my opening statement. It's going to be 40 minutes, And then you get a six minute rebuttal, and then I get as much time as I want.

[C]

Okay, okay, okay.

[B]

This is how it works here. I mean, I don't know if you. You've been around these parts, bro. We're alive. We're. We're more live than live.

[C]

We're like, I don't get to see you in this whole exchange. I just have to.

[B]

You want to see me? Oh, hold on. All right. Yeah, I got to turn my camera on. Use camera. I like how Google, when you. When you come into these things now, Google's like, would you like to give me your Social Security number for added security? Would you like to send us a photograph of where you're at?

[C]

It was really easy to live stream with google live streams. Like Google meetup live streams. That was really easy.

[B]

Do you remember when it was really easy to just sign into an account on Anything without like nine factor authorization. You have to take like a blood oath every time you switch accounts. Like when I want to get my sock puppet account and start slandering Jay Dyer in his comment section and he's going to ban me and I'll have to make a new one. But yeah, I have to. It's crazy what it wants. Just send us two dollar super chat email.

[C]

You now have to join the Freemasons.

[B]

Yeah, I mean, Jay's always trying to be a good join anyways. All right, awesome.

[C]

Is this just going to be me looking at myself the whole time like

[B]

usual, Bro, don't you see me?

[C]

No.

[B]

Wait, what? All right. Oh, now you have to. Now you get to see me in all of my.

[A]

All right.

[B]

How do you like my new setup? I got my new desk finally.

[C]

I've been bazed and trad. So I like it.

[B]

My setup's based in trad. Dang.

[C]

That impressed.

[B]

Are you being. Are you being ironic?

[C]

No, I'm being serious. I know that you're not used to people being honest and authentic in your life. You're surrounded by a lot of deception and abuse, but I'm actually just being authentic.

[A]

I feel like there's a.

[B]

There's something coming now. There's like a really serious. There's like a Kenny Powers moment where it's like, you know, you know what's coming next. It's just going to be really funny or just really off the wall. Okay. All right.

[C]

I gotta make sure I look good. I'm just looks maxing real quick.

[B]

I mean, we can tell. I gotta say. I mean, you've said nice things to me and I. I'm gonna say we can tell you've been looks max.

[C]

Did I have? I. I'm not sure.

[B]

I mean, some would say that you're one of the top looks maxers in the world because, I mean, first of all, part of looks. One of the things. One of the overlooked parts of looks maxing is you have to make it look effortless. And so you. The way that you look Mac looks mask is nobody would know that you're even handsome when they look at your face. Right? Nobody would have any idea that you're even like 100% human when they look at you. But then when you spend enough time talking and you're able to use your NLP skills to tell us how handsome and how. How good looking you are and how much you mog, then we start to realize. So I think a real. An underrated part of it is just basic nlp Brainwashing, alien abduction. Abduction type tactics, which is what we're talking about today. I'm gonna. I'm just gonna read this book, so. Oh, this is.

[C]

All right. Are you done?

[B]

I'm here with Jay Dyer. We're talking about aliens, and Jay's mean.

[C]

You actually took notes on a Whitley streamer book?

[B]

Didn't take notes. I put stickies in to make it look like I'm like, you.

[A]

You.

[C]

You were literally underlining, like, from Whitley Streber. Like, that was awesome.

[B]

Like, bro, this freaking sentence is so awesome. This sick paragraph.

[C]

He talks about dancing the cha cha with aliens. Like, that freaking blew my mind.

[B]

All right, so this is how it's going to be.

[C]

You really under. Underline stuff in Will Street?

[B]

No, no,

[C]

I. I sent Tristan some. Some comic books, and it comes back underlined with a bunch of tabs in it.

[B]

Stop saying that stuff. Why do you have to be this way?

[C]

Tristan's got a bunch of goosebumps on her life.

[B]

Oh.

[C]

I mean, that goosebumps was blowing Tristan's mind.

[B]

But, dude, this book is actually hilarious. When you read this, you just realize, like, how was. This was kind of a bestseller back in 1986. This was legitimately. This was like.

[C]

It was you.

[B]

This was top. Top of the pops book back in the day. I was. I was born in 1987. Jay was born in 1947. He's an actual baby boomer. But I was born Roswell, dude.

[C]

I was born at Roswell.

[B]

He just. He wasn't even born. He just manifested.

[C]

I manifested at Roswell in 1947.

[B]

He was just covered in sticky notes. He was like. Instead of like, ectoplasm, it was just sticky notes. And he was just like, you have to unmute, bro. Going to have to unmute, bro. He was already verbal as just like a little. Little J. Faking alien fetus. Just like. I'm not trying to be mean, but you're going to have to unmute.

[C]

I like how your impression of me is nothing like me at all. You can do the muzzle.

[B]

That's baby alien Jay, bro. What are you talking. That's canonical character in the J. Dire universe is baby alien J.

[C]

So Chad gets it right. Have you seen the movie as well with Chris?

[B]

Yeah, I watched half of it the other day with Chris. Christopher Walken.

[C]

Did you get to the part where he dances with it with aliens?

[B]

Yeah, I've seen that part. I've seen the. The YouTube video of that part. That's the only good part the movie is. It's Like Christopher Walken's worst performance. So bad. It's. Yeah, it's fun.

[C]

Bad.

[B]

It's not. It's not really that frightening. But you can see how if you're a little kid and you saw that book back in the day, it'd be scary. But I read this book, dude, when I was like 10. 10 years old. And I don't know how my parents actually let me because I would. I would go. It's not sticky notes, by the way. I would. I would actually go to the. Our. Is our audio better now? Is Jay loud enough? He can just yell if you guys want. I can just have him yell. I would go to the. I'll go to the library and I'll go to the weird section where they've got all the like, alien books and cryptids and UFOs and like VHS store

[C]

in the back room. I think that's what you're talking about. The weird section with the large VHS in the back room. Talking about.

[B]

Are you done?

[C]

Yeah, done.

[B]

Are we going to be mature adults

[C]

and have this debate now talking about wh. Sh. Books. Yeah, we'll be mature adults debating the.

[B]

The. The place of streaming.

[C]

But when you were 10, you want to be mature dog.

[B]

Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm not trying to brag. I'm. That's super cringe. I read this when I was 10. It's like, like my parents were not neglectful parents. They're actually really cool. My parents were. They. They were looking out for me. I remember getting this book and I didn't like, get it and think, oh, this is amazing. This is also true. But I was listening to coast to coast and stuff on, you know, AM radio back in the day. Coast to Coast. I'd always go to that little section of the library that had all the UFO books and stuff and books on Bigfoot. Anything that was kind of weird, they would have in one section. And so I would go there and I just read all those books, everything I could find. And I don't know how I actually. I don't remember actually getting the book, but I remember reading the book and just thinking, this is such a strange thing that this book even exists. And I reading it now I'm looking back and I'm. There's. I mean, it's. The guy's getting full on, like, sodomized by these aliens. Like, spoiler alert.

[C]

There's.

[B]

You could have never known. You'd have never known from the thumbnail. There's butt stuff in space. Guys, we're Going full butt stuff. There's hyperspace butt stuff and it's just, it's butt stuff all the way up and all the way down. So we talked about Crowley and kind of the connection between ritual, magic and the occult and science. Right. Scientism in the Jack Parsons stream the other week with Shout out to Anthony Westgate. That's really fun stream. We, we went kind of deep on like 20th century occultism and the Crowley being the godfather of all this stuff, right. I mean Crowley was really influential in all counterculture movement. And going back and reading this book again is really funny. So first of all, one of the first things that you notice when you start to look at the alien abduction phenomenon is almost all this stuff is known through hypnotic regression, right? All these encounters are recanted to us through the lens of a shrink. And almost all the people that were pretty prominent in the 80s and 90s, and I think even going in the 2000s, one of the common connectors is a guy called Bud Hopkins. So when you read Whitley's book, he's talking about, you know, his. As a kind of a fledgling writer was writing these books and he somewhat minimizes it, but when you look at it, he was writing kind of sci fi adjacent books and the project that he was working on had to do with the end of the world and basically the world blowing up because we have an ecological crisis which is not far fetched for any sci fi or kind of fantasy book that is being written post 19, post atom bomb, basically. So this idea of man destroying everything is, is kind of in the common parlance of most people, most artists have this idea, this very postmodern idea of, you know, the great power of the atom bomb, destroying everything, completely changing the entire landscape and ending everything in the flash. And so he's got that on his mind and he's working on these books and then he says, well, we go out to our cabin, cabin in the woods. And at this cabin I have a weird experience. And he describes the experience that he has and it's not really that strange, right? He's got. One of the weird things though is he's got this couple that are with him and, and he describes the guy as being this guy. He says he was almost £300. He said he was £300 or like upwards of £300 and a black belt in karate. So he's. He's hanging out with like a straight up like weirdo Polish Nephilim dude who's, I think his name Igor or something like that. And Then his wife is also a rider. Both of these people that are there, Igor or whatever the dude's name is, and this other woman are writers. And they're going to go hang out in this cabin with Whitley. In this cabin he's had for a little while. And he has this weird experience where he basically gets kind of a fright in the middle of the night, and he. He doesn't really know what to think of it. So then he gets a little bit freaked out and he ends up. He's. It's very strange. He says, I remembered that a man named Bud Hopkins had been mentioned in a book as a prominent researcher in the field. He starts to get interested in UFOs, right? Like he had this strange experience, but he doesn't really remember it all. So this is something you see all throughout this, which is, in my opinion, really indicative of possible involvement of some sort of, like, mind control, slash occult techniques that. That are overlapping with the phenomena. I'm not saying that some people aren't just making stuff up, that some people aren't just delusional. I think those can both be true while at the same time they're actually being some sort of a reality to the experience. Because you see consistency across the board with all of these people talking about their experiences with what they think are aliens. Right. You have any. You have any thoughts on that? Just by the. The kind of intro there to Whitley Streber's ideas, you're muted. Still.

[C]

That's good, because there's a lot of details that I don't recall from the. The story. Jamie and I watched the movie probably three years ago just for fun, as a joke. But so some of these details are kind of coming back to me, and that's good. I think you mentioned the butt stuff. That's relevant because as Jamie's been covering a lot of her podcasts lately, a lot of these ancient techniques of ritual initiation, these, you know, the temple cults, they kind of already understood the way that you could traumatize and initiate people in the ancient world through these kinds of ritual but actions. And when Crowley is drawing up the degrees for his OTO, he specifically includes that around the 10th or 11th degree, that there's this initiation that pertains to, you know, the. The anus. And he calls that. This is the. The eye of Horus is. Is far superior to the mouth of Venus, which is the vagina. So for ritual magic purposes, you know, he believed that that was some, you know, mystical, spiritual way to go about initiation. That's even Superior to, you know, heterosexual, male, female sex. So in other words, it's just a representing of the ancient pagan demonic religions. That is an overlap that we see with the so called SR alien abduction phenomena that also overlaps with sra.

[B]

A lot of people, the satanic ritual abuse.

[C]

Yeah, SR stuff has a lot of these overlaps. I know you know that, but just for the sake of the audience. One of the things that really stuck out to me when I started looking into abductions and probably around the same time as you, like, I know it was in. It was in the 2000s when I was super into, like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna check out, you know, all the Atlantis books, and I'm gonna check out texts on, you know, books on, you know, Philip Corso and the UFO phenomenon. I got really into that for a while. I got all the shelf of that up there, and I think what you end up.

[B]

Richard C. Hoagland.

[C]

I did have Hogan's Books, Dark Mission, I had all that. But I've got probably five or so books on, like, UFO abduction type stuff. But you start realizing there's a lot of weird patterns that maybe suggest that. I'm not saying nothing's happening, but you start. In my case, I started doubting that it was like extra biological entities. And I started thinking, this just overlaps so much, much with what I'm reading about, you know, satanic cults and how ritual cults work. So there's some commonality here. It's also similar to ancient religious mind control and initiations. Long story short, that's, I think, a good way to start out understanding this is the religious element. And you mentioned. I just went blank because I'm getting. I've been talking for a long time.

[B]

That's such a good point, man. Yeah. No, if you. If you ever need to take. I wasn't listening to anything he said, but I'm sure the chat got about something. Whatever may be useful from something you said. So how about the. The first page of Whitley's book? It starts out, he's got like this kind of weird poetic prose thing that he wrote, which it's actually.

[C]

Oh, I'm sorry. I remember what I was gonna say. One last point, Tristan.

[B]

I like that. Yeah, do that.

[A]

Whatever you.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Yes. This is talk to the hand. Talk to the white power in that.

[B]

That's. That's like when Tate does this. That's like your version of that, dude. That's high value stuff. I like. Yeah, thank you.

[C]

Our friends Brett and. And I want to say Brett and Jermaine now Flight of the Concourse. But our friends at cinema, they initially proposed this thesis that I think you might be referring to. I don't know if you've watched it, but they have done a lot of research into Willy Schreber and his background and they.

[B]

I'm gonna have to get them on at some point.

[C]

They actually think that he might have been in an MK Ultra sort of thing.

[B]

That's.

[C]

That's.

[B]

Yeah, that's what we're getting at here. You got. I think there was really some abuse that was happening with Whitley. So I don't want to, you know, I don't think mocking abuse victims. I'm not like here to mock some abuse victim. I think there's some serious. There's some serious trauma that these people.

[C]

This isn't my stream. This isn't my stream.

[B]

Yeah, no, Jay is here to mock. We're doing good cop, bad cop. I be nice. And Jay mocks victims.

[C]

Well, no, on my streams that's what we would. We would be doing.

[B]

You make victims. Jay actually does alien abduction streams on kick like they. He full on does.

[C]

I have a whole. I just mog on abductees.

[B]

Just like, like, oh, you got doodled by aliens. Look at my gray alien mask. Does this trauma.

[C]

Admit it, you were a little bit into it.

[B]

Yes, he just bullies them. No, but I think that's. That's the most complete thesis that you have is I think you have an overlap of mind control and satanic ritual abuse stuff which we know those worlds have quite a bit of overlap in methodologies and even in the people that are involved with them in. In certain ways. And then you've also got you. You've also got like these weird shrinks and psychiatrists and the kind of diddling with people's minds and under hypnosis and hypnotic suggestion you've got the aspect of possible drug use in order to induce a hypnagogic state and the combined targeted use of technology including like VLF ELF type weaponry and stuff. All this Cold War tech that was being developed during the MK Ultra years and after electronic warfare drugs even bringing in acts, bringing in aspects of ritual as well to it. And you see this with guys like Strieber. I think that's the most. That's the most potent theory for what we have here. I don't believe he's delusional. I think people who've been through stuff like I. Well, I don't think he's right.

[C]

Can I ask you a question? Just because I Don't have a position. I'm open to it. What makes you think that he's not delusional? What would you argue?

[B]

I think there are aspects that he shows aspects of delusion, but I don't think he's making up everything. So is what I'll get at. So I don't to say like we're all kind of, we're all delusional one way or another, man. It's not a cop out. But we, we all have blind spots. We've all got, you know, we all deceive ourselves. Like in orthodox anthropology, we all consider, we, we all consider ourselves highly limited in our, you know, our perceptions of our own sins and our perceptions or can be skewed. So I think when somebody goes through a traumatic childhood, they, they often are unable to. They can sometimes be unable to discern fantasy and reality. So I think he often slips into delusion and I do think there's an aspect of delusion, but I don't think he's ultimately a paranoid schizophrenic and that this is all the ravings of a deluded mind. I think there are certain experiences that he had and I think he's also been under hypnosis many times with really sus people. And this guy Bud Hopkins, who he came upon was essentially a connecting figure for all of these abductees and their shrinks to go under hypnosis. And he was consistently dropping really suggestive statements to these people before, during and after hypnosis. And if you know anything about the human mind and how it works, if you just have a basic grasp in how like psychopaths work, when you're reading something like this, when you're reading Whitley Streber's Communion, you're just. There's red flag after red flag popping up with especially this Bud Hopkins guy. I don't know. Bud might be a true believer and he's just reinforcing this paradigm which he believes to be true. But these are, these are very vulnerable people who believe they've been abducted and taken and terrified.

[C]

Yeah. Let me ask you a question to be clear. So. And Bud Hopkins is a real guy that has done this type of regression.

[B]

Hopkins is an abstract artist who was pretty big and then the 1970s and 80s. And what Whitley first says about Bud Hopkins is, I remembered a man named Bud Hopkins had been mentioned in a book as a prominent researcher in the field. The name had been familiar to me. Ann and I are interested in art and Hopkins is a well known abstract artist. So Somehow he already knew about Bud Hopkins from the abstract art world. I mean, this dude makes like total weird kind of, you know, art, but

[C]

he's also a hypno regression guy.

[B]

Well, he's not the guy that does the hypnosis. He's the guy who collected all the tapes and brings people to certain psychiatrists, do the hypnosis. So he himself says, well, I'm not a hypnotist, and I don't want to tinge and taint your. Your perception of the experience too much. So he tells Whitley, don't read up on the UFO phenomenon too much. But Whitley also, he's constantly contradicting himself. He also says, well, I knew about the Betty and Barney Hill case, and I knew about abductees, and I'd seen close encounters, but also I had no prior experience that would lead me to connect this experience I had with this phenomenon. And also. And he's. He's really trying to let you know that the hypnosis didn't bring everything to the forefront, that he had these things that happened. And then after hypnosis, he was able to access more of the memories. But then as you go on through the book and he's getting more hypnosis sessions, this is, you know, it's very. Written in a really weird way for this guy to be a writer, a fiction writer. You can tell that he's. Yeah, he's not. Not the greatest.

[C]

Yeah, I read another book of his. I never read Communion, but some years ago there was this. This guy that. This boomer dude that lives in my hometown, and he used to come into the place I. I worked, and he was really into New Age stuff, but then he was thinking about converting to Catholicism and just an oddball. And he, he loves Whitney Whitley Schreiber. And so he would bring me Whitley Schreiber books. And one time I got kind of bored at work and I was reading his book on the tall whites, the Nephilim. So Willie Schreiber has this other book, fiction book about meeting the tall whites.

[B]

Never talk about Yakub, though. He even talk about who made. Made the white man.

[C]

Well, the tall blacks made the tall whites.

[B]

But yeah, we like the. The Yakubian Nubians. That's what we rock with.

[C]

But the. It was not that great written of a book. So I, I recall, and I get what you're getting at here.

[B]

Yeah, you'll. He'll. He'll contradict himself paragraph to paragraph. You're like, dude, didn't you have an editor? I mean, I. This was like a mainline book, and this basic mistakes that an editor should be helping him take care of. I don't know how it got through. Through without. Without some heavy editing, but it's. Yeah, it's weird because even with Bud Hopkins, he tries to tell you, oh, like I didn't know about this guy. Oh, but also I remembered the name because I knew him as an artist. He was collected by Guggenheim and Whitney. And so he. Excuse me, Alien probes come from a nose. So he said, I found his name in the phone book, but how could I call him? What a stupid thing to have to admit. Little men, flying saucers. How idiotic. So he called. He calls up Bud Hopkins because he'd already heard about him, but he's trying to tell you the whole time, well, my perceptions were not influenced by the culture that already existed at all. So it's, It's. It's really strange how he says this, but, you know, the book starts out with kind of a hypnotic suggestion, right? It starts out with this very strange poem. It says, there's. There's two. There's two little starters. There's a. There's a poem that he writes that's got some weird hypnotic suggestions. And then there's this, the very first page. When you read this incredible story, do not be too skeptical. Somewhere in your own past, there may be some lost hour or strange recollection that means that you also have had this experience. The book is about forming new. A new relationship with the unknown. Instead of shunning the darkness, we can face straight into it with an open mind. When we do that, the unknown changes, fearful things become understandable, and the truth is suggested.

[C]

The enigmatic presence preemptively suggesting, yeah, this

[B]

is some occultic stuff right here. And then the enigmatic presence of the human mind winks back from the dark. So there's a whole worldview that's depicted to you in the first page, and it's telling you also, like, yeah, you probably already got abducted, bro. So he starts getting into this idea of missing time. And, and it really. He comes to believe after several hypnosis sessions and being exposed to Bud Hopkins, which he doesn't disclose. All his conversations with Hopkins, he. It's clear that Hopkins is guiding him in every one of these sessions. He's even allowed to ask questions. And then Whitley straight up says, well, Bud promised to only ask a few questions and to be very careful to not add suggestions in those questions. But then you get. You see, the questions he asked, they're hyper Suggestive. And you can tell from the types of questions he's asking that he has a specific goal in mind and his interests are really tainting the process altogether. So Bud Hopkins is not doing the hypnosis, but he's assisting like a magician's assistant kind of guy sitting there in

[C]

the room, which really just made me think of something because I'm trying to place this as to how I think this might be working. And if you watch the streams that we've done over the years on, like, Mirage Men, if you recall, in Mirage Men, the documentary highlights in certain decades different figures that were chosen to be these sort of disseminators of the alien mythology or the alien story. And they would actually pick and profile psychologically weak, defective, narcissistic people. So they had, back in the 70s, it was that guy named, I was going to say, so Bob Moore. And then in the 90s, they had Linda Moulton Howell, which was part of, you know, coast to Coast. Whitley Schreiber, also part of Coast To Coast. And then it's. Nowadays it's the Bob Laser guy. And they all have these commonalities. But in the documentary, Richard Doty admits that, yeah, we actually pick these people because, like, they believe they're special and they're chosen. And he even gives the impression that they're like intentionally disinformation engines. So now I'm starting to think, oh, well, that's what Whitley is.

[B]

Yeah, yeah. So. And he. He was on Coast to coast back in the day. This guy's depiction of the alien, what it looked like, has become basically the canonical. This is what you're supposed to believe aliens look like.

[C]

Right.

[B]

And there's an entire mythos that they've built around this, which Whitley Strieber even hints at in the book. And his speculations on what these aliens are like, are they some sort of an echo from the future? And you'll hear Rogan Rogan's. You know, he. Rogan didn't come up with this, but when he talks about aliens, he'll always bring up, like, all the grays, man. You know, they must be. When you think about the. Where we're going and evolution, which is clearly true. Right. We're obviously evolving to need less muscle. So they're like really wiry little soy boy aliens. And. And also their mouth gets really small because they're just going to be like, you know, they're just gonna be sucking the soy slope straight from the little sippy cup. Like they're getting that little. Getting that, getting that drip, drip, sippy cup up to the face of their mouth's really small and their eyes are really big because the, you know, the. The environment is changing and they're not in the sun anymore, and they're like, maybe living underground. And it's just like evolution, bro. And it's so you get this projected Darwinian kind of materialist slash. I mean, it's. It's obviously. It's actually not materialist. Like, the worldview of Darwinism is kind of this like strange nominalist. Like a. Jim Bob's been pointing this out.

[C]

It's actually spiritual materialism or mystical materialism. In fact, because we just did a series of episodes, we're filming a show with Pavel Shailen. He's the Russian Peugeot. He's one of the biggest Russian YouTube guys. And we've spent three times in Nashville now, three weekends filming. We did it yesterday in Nashville. A series of podcast discussions. He's a super smart dude. His main focus is political philosophy. So he. He goes from an orthodox perspective. So he goes really deep into this very question that Tristan just brought up. And I thought he had a really good account of how even Marxism and these types of modern materialist philosophies, they're actually. And this would include Darwinism. They're actually. He calls them. I think he says they're like spiritual materialism, which makes sense.

[B]

Yeah. 100. I mean, Father Seraph from Rose and Orthodoxy and the religion of the future is that's. It talks about how there's kind of this. He talks about there's. There's no real materialism, right? There's always. There's no true materialism because then you're just. You're collapsing everything into like a single mode if you're going to kind of go that direction. But that's a really good point. So just to kind of move the narrative forward and like what Whitley describes his experience as. So he meets Bud Hopkins, right? He says, the moment our interview began, Hopkins explained that he was not a therapist, but he could put me in touch with Juan if I wanted that. He then got the facts from me that I've recorded there. Then a few paragraphs later, he says, I left Hopkins a house, a happy man. He'd said that judging from his experience, the October events may have been caused by the same agents agency that was responsible for the disturbance of December 26th. So he had two. Two little events. One of the events was basically just a loud noise in the night. And he had kind of a dream and some sort of A night terror. So Bud's already putting in his mind, like, all right, this experience that you had where you possibly experienced some entities, right? This strange, almost demonic, like, fairy entity thing that you experienced here, which is probably aliens. Well, this other strange thing that happened probably connected. So he's clearly tainting the, you know, the patient here already in Whitley. So then he goes, he, you know, he goes on for a little bit and talks about some other nonsense. And then in the next chapter where he's going to go under hypnosis, he says, bud Hopkins, he's got to get a therapist, right? He says it could not be somebody who believed anything in particular about visitors or the disc phenomenon. The ideal therapist would have an open mind. I could have a mental problem. It might or might not have components unknown to science, or it could be just what it seems. So I could be crazy. This could be some sort of like, you know, schizophrenic psychotic break I'm having. He posits that I was open to be being. To be shown to be insane. And that would actually make it easier, like, if I was crazy. That's maybe better because I'm not gonna be, you know, I don't have to. I've got an out, right? Let me just move my. Notice that you're bigger on the screen. I have to mog you more. Make me really large, AJ really small.

[C]

I had nothing to do with any of this.

[B]

Like a soy face over. Nope, don't have a soy face. I can put on Jay. All right, so. So then he has a chapter on the uncertain mirror. So he says, basically, like, I don't want to get. He says, I'm not gonna. I chose not to approach any hypnotist to whom Hopkins had made previous referrals despite the excellence of their credentials. So Hopkins starts telling, hey, go to this hypnotist, go to that hypnotist. He says, no, I don't want to go to those next paragraph. Hopkins remembered that Dr. Donald Klein of the New York State Psychiatric Institute had expressed interest in the phenomenon and appeared to be open minded about it. I looked up Dr. Klein's credentials and found them to be superior. Superb. If he would take me on, he was the ideal man. So it's like one paragraph to another. Total contradiction. I don't know how this gets past an editor or just like him proofing his own stuff. He goes to this guy, he goes under hypnosis, and what do you know, he starts to get major memories that pop out. And through several hypnosis Sections he slowly kind of unravels in his mind and figures out that, well, my whole life I've been having this experience, and ever since I was like 10, 12 years old, I have been abducted by these visitors and absolutely traumatized and terrified by these horrible creatures who are taking me, putting probes in my. Putting needles behind my ear, physically torturing me and interrogating me significantly and probing the innermost depths of my sword soul to try to gain total control of my soul. But also, maybe they're our friends and we shouldn't judge them because maybe they're more advanced than us and they're like future wizard humans. Or maybe they're like some hive mind tech thing from the future, or maybe they're like some sort of a spiritual thing. But they can't be the Christian demons, because I reject.

[C]

Hey, hey, slow down now. You ever said movie Interstellar.

[B]

You're saying that is that movie. Is it like. Is it a structure that's kind of like a flat circle?

[C]

It is. That's a movie, though, where it's like the aliens is me in the future and I come back and touch myself on the shoulder. Remember that?

[B]

You touch yourself only on the shoulder.

[C]

Only on the show. That's what's in the movie. Remember that? That's actually.

[B]

All right.

[C]

All right, if you think in Interstellar, oh, maybe this is aliens, right? And then you get to. Towards the end, it's like, no, it's Matthew McConaughey 500 years in the future.

[B]

Yeah, exactly.

[C]

The alien writing Matthew in the future. We're all Matthew McConaughey in the future. That's it.

[B]

The stupidest cop out. Is it. Is that a. Is that. What's his face? Is that Nolan? Is that a Nolan film? That's such a Christopher Nolan cop out, dude. That's like. That's. That's the worst thing that all. The whole postmodern lit thing led to is like fight club type stuff where everything's like. But it was really just your mind,

[C]

dude. This is. It's like Mario too. It's like it was a dream the whole time, dude.

[B]

Oh, it is a dream. Oh, we just woke up and it's like, dude, it's like, what if you

[C]

woke up but you were still in the Matrix? And then when you left the Matrix, you were still in the Matrix.

[B]

Such another layer. That's. Yeah, that's. That's the worst. Is the absolute worst. But yeah, so Bud Hopkins consistently tainting his. His thoughts and stuff. Like he just jumps in and. And starts Asking him questions. Let's see. Whitley says, it's so unexpected. This is the last thing I would have thought would have come out of me. And what's weird about this is why would someone come from a flying her and invoke that kind of impression in me? What possible reason would they have? And then Bud responds to him, this is like during hypnosis. I think, well, that's not to find out. Now that's speculation down the road. What kind of. That's, that's some like straight up manipulation strangeness right there. He's, you know, if you're, even if you're just reading a narrative, a fictional narrative, and a character says something like that, where the character is implying ultimate knowledge in this realm of mystery which the character is experiencing and says, you'll learn. Don't worry, young padawan, like, we'll teach you.

[C]

We haven't written that part of your script yet. We'll figure that out later.

[B]

What?

[C]

He's like, he's saying, hey, don't worry, Whitley, we haven't written that part of your script yet.

[B]

No, I was joking. I was just playing into the like post hypnotic suggestion. Wait, what?

[A]

What?

[B]

But. And then Whitley is writing this in the book and not realizing how sus it makes Bud Hawkins seem. I think that's one of the standout things with this book, is how clear it is that Bud Hopkins is very interested in Whitley's perceptions and in managing that. And he's got an entire catalog of tapes from these other so called abductees that he then later shows to Whitley. So Whitley has his first sessions and then he. And then Bud says, well, now you can listen to the other hypnotic regression sessions that I've collected. And I've got hundreds of them.

[C]

So then Whitley starts actually helping form Whitley's story of this account.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I mean it's very much. It's kind of. It's almost like a strange Clockwork Orange type plot. And you know, supposedly is non fiction. This is supposed to really.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

Streamer's story. But it's basically kind of a low tech version of a brainwashing of a man into believing a certain narrative about experiences that he had. But what I found really interesting too. You'll like this. This is finally getting to the good part that Jay's gonna like. Guess what it is. Chat everyone. Get everyone in the chat. Guess what, Guess what is coming up here that Jay is going to be so excited about. We've got the cosmic Cosby Crowley booty play going on.

[C]

Nice. Oh, now Now I understand why. Why Cosby's on there.

[B]

Yeah, how you can have alien abduction butt stuff without Cosby sprinkling his magic dust.

[C]

Yep.

[B]

You gotta get Cosby in there. So. All right, so he's. He's in this hypnot post hypnotic regression, or he's in this hypnotic session where the hypnotist puts him under supposedly. Right. And the whole thing with hypnosis is really odd. And there's. There's always been quacks and strangeness around the entire hypnosis phenomenon. I mean, this is like a pretty important part of 20th century mind control tech lore is the role of hypnosis. How much can you. How far can you push a person in hypnotic state to do something that they would otherwise not do, to believe something they would otherwise not believe? And that's, that's kind of one of the big questions of mk. They were using, of course, drugs, hypnosis. And then you've got other, you know, you and Cameron, who's using extreme psychic driving and traumatizing of children. And Streamer's story really lines up with a lot of that.

[C]

But.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

What do you.

[B]

What are your thoughts on hypnosis?

[C]

Esther Brooks's essay that's cited in the dsmb, which is where he claims that he can create the hypnotic couriers. That's a classic MK Ultra paper. And that's the one where he says, oh, I embedded this information in the altars and I created the keywords. So, you know, you can doubt that, but I mean, it. It's cited in the literature. Like this is accepted as something plausible.

[B]

Bro, come on. We're. We're trying to hypnotize the audience. You guys in the audience. Forget he said that. You cannot doubt any of our opinions. You have to take them as total fact. Do the, do the hand thing, please, Jay.

[C]

I mean, I can start singing if you want me to hypnotize the audience.

[B]

No, do the hand thing. Because that they have. Yes. All right. You must. Everything we say, you cannot tell the

[C]

hand that you talk to when I'm not ready to hear your voice.

[B]

You're going to space. And you are all chosen. You're all the chosen ones. Well, he literally gets told, you are chosen, you're the chosen one.

[C]

They tell him why I was saying that. I remember this. This is the pattern that you see with these unfortunate, you know, dupes that are chosen to be kind of the engines of the disinformation of the whole alien deep state narrative they want.

[B]

Yeah. So you're the Chosen one, you have a special message for mankind. This is a consistent thing that these abductees start to think you're chosen. You're going to tell everybody. You're going to reveal all the secrets of the deep state. You're going to save the world from the bad aliens and you're going to like, maybe introduce them to the good aliens and you know, we're going to create this new world or the narrative can sometimes be you're going to be a part of this new seed civilization that humanity is going to destroy itself. It's obsolete. It's over the news.

[C]

Undergoing ascension. Right now we're undergoing ascension and I'm chosen to lead us into 5D consciousness. Out of. Out of the. Yeah, yeah.

[B]

So you and this stuff around 2009, 10, it was all project Camelot.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I don't know if very many people in the audience remember this. Project Camelot was run by this guy, Bill Ryan, this lady, Carrie Cassidy. Jay had a huge crush on Carrie Cassidy. Yes. Camel toe. Cassidy Kerry. Camel toe. Yeah, he. Yeah, he can't stop. Would you want to give have take a moment, Jay, to just think about her lust after.

[C]

If you want to play her intro song, I'm a Jaguar, you can.

[B]

I can't pull it up because it might be. What if it's copyrighted by Carrie and then she. She takes my stream down.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[B]

Hey, guys, thanks for the super chats. Everybody. Who's sending super chats, 95 of those go to Jay. That's contractual obligation that Jay. Jay gets actually like 95 of all of my income for just being his friend. He calls it tithing. See, all right, that's how. That's where it goes. So you, you know, know that it's going to a good cause. It's going to help fuel Eda J. Dyer's extreme.

[C]

Where are we talking, Ed?

[B]

The J. Dyer's extreme espresso habit. His extreme espresso addiction. And to pay for the help, he calls her Jamie, his live in espresso maker, who. Who's always there on call. So, yeah, make sure to make sure to shout out, is that gerchief? What is that? No, that's the Quran. It's like a kerchief.

[C]

When that. When that down syndrome guy was doing the Quran readings and he was going, so.

[B]

Oh, now we're just making fun of disabled people.

[C]

Muslims who said they were disabled. Not me. That was you. That's your dis.

[B]

Hey, guys. Because it's not the down syndrome. It's the. So. So, yeah. Anyways. Yeah. Oh, speaking of gurchief, I brought up Gurchief, but he was actually. So Whitley says I didn't have any prior religious beliefs that would have led me to this. But as you're reading the book, he's just Easter egging all his prior religious beliefs that led him to this, which he rejected Catholicism pretty young, couldn't believe in Catholicism because he was too advanced. And they were a little bit bigoted and they didn't believe in, like, science and all this. And he didn't like the nuns when he was a kid. He says, I'd been reading some serious. I've been reading some. Sorry, reading some sermons of the 13th century Mystical philosopher Meister Eckhart. So he was reading Meister Eckhart and he also was a member of. Not just. He didn't just read gurchief, he was a member of the gurchief, like, foundation. And he was really well read in Gurchev and Uspensky. And I think. Wasn't Crowley significantly influenced by Gurchev? I mean, Gurchief was kind of. Wasn't he a little bit before Crowley? I'm not. I know you're a gurchief expert.

[C]

I just. We did. When I did the Cambridge Companion to Western Mysticism, we read most of the entries and we did a discussion of the Gurdjieff entry. I don't recall if Crowley was. I wouldn't be surprised. But one interesting element that came out of Gurdjieff was not only was he suspected of being some intelligence operative, he was also. He was also. If you look at what he tries to do in this, his weird system is he tries to get you to almost kind of dissociate and create a bunch of different versions of you. And he thinks that somehow this is like a way to like, master a bunch of different versions of yourself to be, you know, not bound to one version of your. It's just really weird stuff. But I was. As I was reading, I'm like, this actually sounds like a manual of, like, helping people dissociate.

[B]

Isn't that funny when you. When you start. And that's. This is what the alien abduction phenomenon is as well. Right. It's. It's almost like this hypnotic induction to disassociation, not believing your past and kind of this epistemological uncertainty that can lead to either psychosis, which is going to also lead to extreme suggestibility.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

Or you visiting some UFO related shrink who's gonna Essentially hypnotize you and kind of breadcrumb you into some strange culture. You know what yourself.

[C]

This is exactly why the Collins brothers have been correct to you to connect the notion of worldview formation to alien cults. Because of what a lot of these people are doing, particularly the people you're talking about, like with this guy with Whitley, it's like they're experimenting and playing with, how can I create and steer this guy into a worldview and then create an alien cult or something like that. That's an acceptable story that they'll buy into that gives meaning to their life when they have a trauma and, you know, their paradigm falls. You know, now they need a new story to make sense of everything. That's where the cult step in when people are damaged and traumatized.

[B]

100. Yeah, that's really well said. Shout out to the Collins brothers. I'm actually. We're trying to nail down a date, so I'm thinking about next week. Next week? We're gonna try to get them next week and talk about some of this stuff with them. They're so fun to talk to and they're. They've got encyclopedic knowledge and recall about all of this stuff. And they wrote one of the best books where this subject is just one chapter, but that chapter is like 180 pages or maybe 300.

[C]

Yeah, like, alien section is like 300 pages. Right?

[B]

Like the alien section itself is massive. And that book is called Invoking the Beyond. And I forget what the. The subs. The subtext was on that Invoking beyond something with the content rift. But it's. It's a brilliant book and these are really brilliant guys and I love talking to them. And they're going to come back on soon and I hope they get to see this and then we can maybe expand and flower out some of these. Some of these topics with them. Because they are gonna. They would be throwing out so many names if I just brought up Bud Hopkins to them. They're gonna, you know, they'll. They'll spitball a thousand and facts that I hadn't even heard. And I've been exposed to this since I was 10 years old, unfortunately. Thank God I didn't have like some sort of a traumatic childhood where I could later project back, oh, my goodness, my missing time. This must have been the aliens. Right? Because this is what really started too late.

[C]

I could put you in touch with some Raelians. I know if you are looking for an alien cult that fits your proclivity.

[B]

Yeah, I'M looking for a narrative. I'm looking for a traumatic childhood narrative that will bother. Make me unquestionable as far as, like, any of the claims that I make because I'm so fragile and, you know, you look at me as being suggestible. Yes. Yeah. So, so weak and fragile. So you have to just. Yeah, you don't want to break this person. But then also to justify me having secret occult superpowers that I don't really have. And I could pretend that I have and just, like, go on the interview circuit.

[C]

Yeah, but you're the chosen one.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

You're the chosen one.

[B]

Thank you. I know.

[C]

This also brings to mind Spielberg's recent Disclosure Day film because now we're just belching.

[B]

We're just gonna belch.

[C]

The whole mess of the debate was that the aliens are not the enemies that are alien saviors. You just have the wrong perception that they're demons. They're actually like our alien saviors.

[B]

100%. 100. So check out what the alien saviors do to poor little Whitley here. So he's. He says, I. This is under hypnosis. He starts telling Dr. Klein, who is. You don't have to look at his Wikipedia to know.

[C]

This is like. Is this like the doc? Remember the doctor and Rosemary's Baby Saperstein, bro.

[B]

This guy's. This guy's hyper. He's hyper sus.

[C]

Right?

[B]

You know, you don't even have to look him up. And there's actually not much on him online. You can see the physiognomy. You can see the nameion of me. And yeah, you. You can kind of tell what's going on with Dr. Klein. And it's just so funny how he gets suggested by Bud Hopkins right after saying, I'm not going to go with any of Bud's psychiatrists. I'll find one on my own. And then, oh, yeah, Bud recommended this guy who's really good. So he says, I just shot right up out of the woods in this chair, this thing. I just went woof. Right up out of the woods. And then it has a little parentheses. Other people have reported this sailing up into the air. Also, I did not see what I entered. The hypnotist says, very high. He says, yeah, you're telling me. I went way up, right up. I must have gone up 100ft. More than 100ft up past the trees, just like that. Woof. It goes up the. Past the tree. Here's.

[C]

There it is. Or just woof.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Whoop.

[B]

Day it is day it Is I Z, which is really weird. So he says it smells funny. Smells something like cheese in here. Smells kind of nasty, to tell you the truth. It's not clean. So it starts stinking like Willie's like, wherever I have it stinks. He straight up says it smells like sulfur. He says it smells like sulfur around these creatures. It's like, are you kidding me? This is classic kind of, you know, in, in this, if this happened in the 14th century, this is going to be described as, you know, a, a demonic experience, an experience with, with demons. So he says, there's, there's somebody here. There's somebody talking to me now. She walk, she walks right past me in the front. She's wearing a tan suit. She looks like a little person made out of leather sort of. I see the head real clearly. And you got, you got to like, you know, it makes you sick kind of, because, you know, I can't. I don't know where this thing could be going. So he's like freaked out. He has no idea what's going on. When you read it, it kind of seems like he's been drugged. Right. And you can, what? You can.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

So there are drugs that you can use. Like first of all, scopolamine, some of these other kind of weaponized so called psychedelics that they were using in the MK Ultra experiment. And experimenting with like BZ was one of those. You ever read about their, their like experiments with bz? BZ was like a terrific, a terrifying experience.

[C]

Yeah, I think it's mentioned in John Marks's MK Ultra book.

[B]

Yeah, it's, it's a lot of the MK Ultra lore.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

BZ would essentially create a state of panic and absolute fear with hallucination. So it kind of seems like this is what's going on with him. So things progress. Here, here's, here's Jay's favorite part.

[C]

Jay.

[B]

Jay, like keeps sending me screenshots of something.

[C]

No.

[B]

Dr. Klein, what happened? Just a bang.

[C]

Bang.

[B]

Back behind my head. That's all. Not loud, just a bang. She's sitting right in front of me the whole time, just looking at me. They're moving around back there. I could sense them. But I was looking at her. She drew something up from below. Jesus, is that your penis? I thought it was a woman. Makes a deep grunting sound that goes right in me. Another grunt. Punching it in me. Punching it in me. I'm gonna throw up on them. Pause. They began trying to open my mouth with their hands. What do you keep wanting to do that to my Mouth for. I mean, this is horrible. Like, it's kind of hard to read at this point because this is. At this point, it feels like you're reading a ritual abuse survivors depiction of a childhood trauma. Like, this is really sad, like, weird at this point. So, yeah, he thought it was a woman or whatever. And there's. Anyways he goes on to experiences him being, you know, violated. Here in the next page, the woman's talking to him and Klein just keeps bringing him, bringing him on and on, asking kind of somewhat weird questions. What if we don't let you go home? But I don't know if she said that or not. So he says, I want to go home. She says, we can't let you go home. Or what if we can't let you go home? So he's just absolutely terrified. He says the voice says to him, can you be harder? Can I be harder? Oh, Lord. Didn't know I was hard like that. No, not with you around. I can't be harder. Voice, what would you like me to be? What would I like you to be? I'd like you to be a dream is what I'd like you to be. Voice. I can't do that. So, yeah, it doesn't hurt at all. Doesn't hurt at all.

[C]

I'm not really here for erotic readings with Tristan. I know you wanted to do some sort of.

[B]

Jay made me read you guys. That's actually Jay. All right. So anyways, This is Jay's description. He wrote this. He told me, I want you to read my fan stick.

[C]

50 Shades of Grays bro wrote this.

[B]

He said, I want you to read. This is some fanfic that I've been writing.

[C]

Fifty Shades of Grays. Come on.

[B]

No, that was good. That was good. Straight up. Straight up. We're going cosmic Cosby cosmonauts here. So it's. It's really sick. So anyways, yeah, the, the. The aliens just happen to be doing stuff like this, which lines up with ritual abuse, lines up with childhood abuse

[C]

experience and ancient religious initiation, temple, prostitution

[B]

practices, which also just happen to line up with popular 20th century occultism, Crawley stuff.

[C]

Exactly.

[B]

It's, it's, you know, by the way,

[C]

you know, you know, the oto, like officially, a lot of the present day members and, and writers, they actually openly say what. What people are calling aliens is actually what we think I was. And Lamb and these different deities that Crowley talked about, that's what we're contacting. Because you, you know about Lamb, obviously,

[B]

some people and some of them do. I Think OTO is a little bit less because Crowley's not around to dominate all of them now. It was kind of Crowley's, like, weird domination ritual cult, and he was always using them to harvest money and stuff. So I feel like they might have a lot of different sex within OTO Now, I'm not sure about.

[C]

I'm just saying that I remember reading an essay from a Crowian dude online maybe five years ago where he was saying, my take on this is that when we do our rituals, we're tapping into what people are calling aliens, or he thinks they're the same thing.

[B]

And. And that's what they were saying in the. Yeah, like the gods, too, right?

[C]

Yeah. Jamie has a book by another Crowley and Guy who. The whole. Whole book is like, we are the aliens are the gods.

[B]

So, yeah, yeah, they're the gods. These are the spirits, these are the fairies. These are the sprites. These are. They have all these different names. They're kind of like the Masons and the. You know how the masons are like. Well, masonry is really just the actual true core of every religion. Like, Jesus was a Mason. And, like, you know, everyone was a Mason. They say, you know, Muhammad. I'm sure they would say, like, oh, yeah, Muhammad. He was a Mason too. You know, everyone was a Mason. So in. In that way, these guys, and they've been saying that since, like, the forties, right? Like when. When Jack Parsons would get up in these OTO meetings, he would go out on his. His little. What's it called? Not a porticature, but he had this kind of this little balcony that was hanging out over this large patio that had this massive, ornate fountain. And naked women would go. They would dance around the fountain. There's, like, kids present, right? These are weirdos, man. Kids present watching these weird oto, freaky deaky, Diddy Cosby parties. And he would do the invocation to Pan, which is a poem that Crowley wrote, and he would do this invocation to Pan. And he believed that, yeah, these spirits, these. They. Aliens weren't like a big thing canonically back then, but they really saw as, like, we're contacting the gods. And when he was out in the desert, he claimed that he met, like, a Venusian. So the idea of Martians and Venusians and stuff like that, this was pre Grays. That was kind of the. It was all about Martians and whatnot. So they would see, like, Mars being a God. They would see the land of Mars as having significant esoteric and occult meaning to them in these Kind of ritual magic.

[C]

Well, let me ask you a question about that, because right now, Jamie and I, we're. We're in. We're. We just did the first season of Strange angel, which is the show based on the book I think you're reading.

[B]

I already did the. I have finished it.

[C]

No, I'm asking, are you doing Sex and Rockets or Strange angel or both?

[B]

The book we did, I just did that two weeks ago.

[C]

Which one?

[B]

Both Strange angel and Sex and Rockets.

[C]

But just the books I'm asking.

[B]

Yes, both.

[C]

Okay. I've not read the. I mean, I have. I've read some of Strange Angel a long time ago, but I'm talking about just what's in the show. So I wanted to ask you if this was. If this. If this lines up with what you're talking about, because you've read the book. I haven't. So I'm saying in the story, in the presentation, on. In the. In the season one, because I haven't done season two yet. But so basically, he goes through. It's kind of slow because they spend this whole time with this fictional character. It was. Was based on a real guy, but they kind of changed him a little bit. I was reading about it. And he gradually gets Parsons into the oto. First, he's reticent, and him and his wife both don't like it. But, yeah, he eventually comes around because towards the end of season one, he goes out with that dude to. To trip a bunch of. I forget it's peyote or I don't know what, some hallucination. He does a bunch of. Some hallucinogen. And while he's out in the desert, he has this sort of initiation enlightenment moment where he. He is. He thinks that the desert is the moon. And so he's on the moon and he starts talking to the dad. He talks to his dead dad. He talks to somebody else. And then he comes back from this hardcore desert hallucinogen trip, and he tells his. His OTO buddy who's just been trying to get him into it. He's like, oh, you're right. I was wrong the whole time. You're absolutely right. The OTO's got it. You guys have the real esoteric philosophy. And by the way, you gave me the breakthrough through that, I'm gonna, you know, create rockets with. I got all this from my, you know, talking to the dead. But what's interesting is that although in this case, it's the dead that he's talking to, that's his source at Least in the TV presentation of where he gets the idea to actually finally create the rocket. So I don't know how much that lines up with the book or not.

[B]

It's. They took a lot of creative license there and I can see why they would do that. He's less interesting than that is. It's more. It's actually way less. That's better. It's better written than his actual life in real life. It was the Dead, the Grateful Dead, actually. It was the. Like he went to Jerry Garcia, was on the moon, he talked with the dead, his dad was Jerry. And they, they told him.

[C]

Well, I will say the way the show the OTO rituals is pretty, pretty accurate. I mean they're not showing like actual orgy, but it does show like what goes on. So that part was fairly accurate.

[B]

So yeah, you know, so when he got into oto, he was gradual. He went to their parties at first and it was like, oh, this is kind of. And then he just started reading Crowley and then they didn't. You don't really get much access to his inner world beyond. It's all testimonies from people who knew him that both of these books are written using. So it's. It's less interesting than the show seems to make it, but still really fascinating. And Strange angel, as I think is a better written book as far as a bio for him, it's got more interesting stuff because the other one seems to be written by an OTO insider who had a vested interest in keeping some of the details about oto's inner workings out of the public. You know, what the Muggles to know, basically. So he's like, you know, kind of whitewashing certain practices. Whereas in like in the Strange angel book, rather than sex and Rockets and Strange angel about Jack's Jack Parsons, it talks about how like they used animal blood is really supposed to be human woman, you know, gender fluids, period blood in their ritual where they make cakes of light and it gets a little. And the whole book's not about that. It's mostly a biography of a weird scientist, is kind of how it's presented. But the guy that got him into oto, I don't know if they'll have this in the show, but in real life it's kind of a crazy story what Crowley does to him. It's just full on psychopathic cult leader stuff. So the guy that was running OTO in la, he gets cooed out and Crowley coups him out by telling him he writes to the people around him is like we have to tell him that he's a God. And this like the reason you. You can't run the OTO anymore. Because this is no place for you, bro. You are literally a God. You are. This is. You're not suited for this. You have to go into the desert and tattoo 666 on your head and work out what it means to be this God that you are. As a hermit with Jack Parsons ex wife out in the desert. So he gets rid of Jack Parsons woman, gets rid of the other head of the oto, and then Parsons takes over. So it's just a giant. Like it's just a giant. It's just a bunch of people rage gooning into oblivion at each other. And like you know, they just drawing pentagrams in the show.

[C]

You can tell like the way they present the neighbor that's getting him into oto. The neighbor just wants to bang his wife.

[B]

Like that's most of it. Yeah, it's mostly just dudes wanting to get. Want to get some of that. Some of that gross. That Joe's, that gross witch opp. That witch Cooter. And it's yeah, this really gross people. But Jack Parsons, after he, after he takes over oto, he ditches his wife for the wife's younger sister who was 15 when he met her and was 17 when he started like really pursuing her. So this woman who becomes. I think it's. Is it Marjorie Cameron or Marjorie Cameron comes later? No, Betty. It was Betty. So he gets with Betty, the younger sister of his ex wife, and she becomes his magical priestess. Then L. Ron Hubbard comes and they're supposed to be free love, right? It's all about free love. It's like, hey, you don't own her, bro. This is like. Yeah, you got to get over your jealousy. It's just all this throupled weirdness, right. Like which later the hippie movement ends up completely embodying.

[C]

We were saying that, that they're ahead of the time in the show because the show's set like late 40s. So. Yeah.

[B]

Yeah, you might. You guys might like the. The last stream I did with, with, with Anthony Westgate. It's a really fun stream. So maybe when you finish the show you can watch that. But yeah, so then I only got

[C]

halfway, I got halfway into it and it's really long. So I just didn't. I haven't finished it yet, but it's

[B]

only four and a half hours as long. Next time you have four and a half hours. So yeah, he. He takes Betty Right. Takes Betty as his chick. Hubbard shows up. Hubbard just starts running through all the girls at oto and he's not even affiliated. Parsons falls in love with them. He's like, you are so thelemic. He's like, will you be my new magical daddy? And he's writing letters to Crowley telling him, like. He's describes Hubbard as having, like, red hair and green eyes. He's, like, totally in love with Hubbard. And I don't know if they put this in the show, but Parsons was, like, bi. He was more into women, but he was also. He thought it was really cool to be bi because Crowley was, you know, proy. Was just like galan.

[C]

They've hinted that that might happen, but nothing happened yet because the guy in the show that's trying to get Parsons into the oto, like, obviously is into Parsons, but he won't act on it yet. So.

[A]

Yep.

[B]

Yeah. So, yeah, Hubbard comes in and Hubbard's just like the guy, man. He comes over, he takes over oto, runs through every single woman one by one there. Then gets to Betty. Betty loves him, and stops paying attention to Jack. Jack is in a rage fit and he's freaked out. And he starts trying to do magic rituals to like, get his juju back. Like, he. Jack Parsons loses his mojo because

[C]

L.

[B]

Ron Hubbard is just Tom Cooming with his chick in the house, like, in front of him all the time. It was like making out on the couch in front of him.

[C]

He's just getting weird because if you look at L. Ron Hubbard like, that dude does not give off mack daddy vibes at all.

[B]

Giga Chad. L. Ron Hubbard just comes and just takes soy Jack. And you look at Jack Parsons, he's like classical handsome guy, right? Like, he looks like the. He looks like a.

[C]

Like a movie star.

[B]

Yeah, he's tall, dark, and handsome. You look at pictures later in the book where he's like. He's always got his shirt off. He's always just like tanning down in Pasadena, just like chilling in the sun like a lizard. But he starts to get some. He getting a little. Get some little B cups, little B cups going on there. Get some. Some of that. Some of that estrogen from his. All his. His daily drinking. So, yeah, Hubbard Hubbard comes in and you look at him and he looks like he's like got 10% down syndrome up in his. Up in his genetic mix. He's got like a quarter extra chromosome going on or something. And he's. But he's a ladies man, dude. He's got that red hair. I think there's. They have something about redheads in the oto. Like, like fire crotch. Remember that? I don't. That was like a. A derogatory term kids would use when we were kids. Oh, fire crotch. But I think maybe there's some magical properties into the oto, like redheads, because everybody loved Crowley. And then Marjorie Cameron later on takes over oto. She. Everybody loved her. And you look at pictures of her and she's disgusting. Like, this woman looks like at all.

[C]

It's really weird, dude.

[A]

She looks.

[B]

She looks like an orc. Like a. Like a. Like a. Like a ginger orc. So, yeah, Hubbard takes his girl, he's freaking out, has a mental breakdown and starts doing crazy black magic stuff to try to get back his mojo. And he's just. His ritual. He's just like drawing pentagrams frantically and gooning in his room and like screaming gibberish. And then Hubbard and his girl, Betty, Jack's girl that Hubbard took. I think they were just messing with him because they took the room right across the hall. And then Parsons starts kind of going mad and does these rituals where, like, part of the invocation is like, you have to take everything that you experience to be a sign from God, right? And this is leading up to his full, almost full breakdown. He basically reaches the edge of madness. And then I could just see Hubbard is like in the room across the way with his girl, probably like, knocking on his door because he was. He was having hallucinations of rapping on the door during his rituals. And he's like, ah, the spirits are torturing me. Hubbard's just like, knocking on his door, like, hey, like, you suck. So the spirits. Very odd situation going on.

[C]

The spirits are making him hear L. Ron Hubbard banging his wife.

[B]

Dude, it's the weirdest thing. So. And all of this is in the. The biography of Jackson Parsons, which I just did an episode on. So everybody who wants more of that story can go watch the previous stream with Anthony Westgate. It's a really fun one. It's long, but we're talking about the connections between cult occultism, scientism, rocketry, and the kind of mythos of space in the 20th century as being this, like, realm of the other from which new mysteries will emerge in which we're going to figure out what our position in the cosmos is, which is really what Whitley Strieber gets at in this book, too. So we're going to figure out the mysteries of the cosmic diddlers who've been messing with me. Which kind of just seem like demons or a mix of the demonic and possibly some sort of intelligence.

[C]

Absolutely. And I'm just. Just thinking of this weird contrast because this is kind of at the same time as. I mean, it's a little bit later. But I mean, if you look up, I'm going blank here. Who's. Who's the guy at the Hollywood A lister in Gone with the Win? No. Clark Gable. He looks like Clark Gable, which is weird because Clark Gable was like, you know, the Mack daddy of the 1930s and 40s. And then you look at L. Ron Hubbard and it's like, I'm still just mystified by like, how. How this dude was out gaming a dude that looked like Clark Gable. It's really bizarre, dude.

[B]

I think L. Ron Hubbard was a legitimate high IQ psychopath. And he. He convinced Jack Parsons that he could be his channel. So I'm gonna be. He basically tells him, I'm gonna be the guy who will go into a trance in your ritual, and I'll tell you what the spirits are saying. And he's just. He's a con man. So he's just sitting there, he's like, look at this. This guy, like, worship. So then he goes on, yeah, he's like, oh, yeah. The spirits tell me that I have to take your chick and we have to make a company. And with this company, I have to buy some yachts. And I'll go buy yachts over in Florida with Betty and we'll sail over through Panama, through Panama Canal. We'll bring them back here to California and sell them for a profit. And that's how make money. So you need to put this. He literally told him this. You put $20,000 into this company, and I'll put 1500. And he gives him all his money. He goes out there, buys three yachts, and just is like, later, bud. I'm just gonna go hang out with your chick. And never comes back. Parsons have. Has to fly over there and put a restraining order on him and never sees Hubbard again. After that, Hubbard runs off with Betty and later on scientists. When this story came out, Scientology, when, like people started biographizing Parsons, this story comes out and they're. They have to. What are we. How are we going to deal with this? Well, they release a statement, and the statement says that, well, L. Ron Hubbard was working with the Office of Naval Intelligence. He was a high level intelligence officer for the American government, protecting us from communists. And these communists had satanic black ritual, black magic rituals happening in Los Angeles. And L. Ron Hubbard broke up a black magic ring that was under Aleister Crowley and being run by Jack Parsons, who they called Dr. Jack Parsons. He wasn't even a doctor, so they, like, fudged the details in this statement. And so he saved this young girl and broke up the black magic circle according to the retcon from Scientology decades later, which is actually interesting.

[C]

Yeah. So I wonder if that's the source. And I wanted to ask you, because I've seen people just say, we don't know, but what level of naval, like, intelligence did he actually have? Or is that exaggerated?

[B]

I think it's going to be impossible to know because he was a blowhard and a braggart and he.

[C]

What?

[B]

It's confirmed that he was in naval intelligence during the war. He was always trying to milk the benefit system and get disability. So he was constantly trying to get disability for his back pain. And so I think he was kind of a con man who was working with intelligence at some point and probably had usefulness at times later in his life, perhaps, where they used him. Because clearly Scientology becomes kind of an intelligence cut out of sorts and is at least perceived to be that way, which is why they were, like, they were banned in Russia for a bit. I don't know, maybe they still are. And they're kind of seen by some foreign. Foreign nations which, you know, are considered by our intelligence agencies to be adversarial. They saw them as being cut outs of the CIA. So I think Hubbard was. Yeah, I don't know. I see him as like a weirdo renegade character. Like Leary. Right. Like, Leary was an asset and used and used by the CIA consistently throughout his career, but saw himself as being an independent agent working on his accord. Right. Like, I don't think Leary was a cynic about the things that he claimed to believe. I think he was a true believer in, like, his nonsense of, oh, we're going to expand consciousness, we're going to. We're going to get rid of the prudes, all those Christian prudes and all these people. We're going to blow minds. He. I think Leary was a pervert who just wanted to hang out with his grad student chicks and get him, get him.

[C]

Well, it's also important to note that according to multiple books and statements, Leary himself was a devotee of Crowley and saw himself as the successor to Crowley.

[B]

He said he was the reincarnation of Aleister Crowley and that he was here to finish the work of Crowley. I'm going to do a Leary stream. I'm going to do his biography, his autobiography in a few weeks. It might take me longer to read it because he wrote an autobiography called Flashbacks, which is, you know, kind of fan fiction about himself. Much like Hubbard, Leary was a blowhard and tried to. Later on he wanted to edit his history a bit and he kind of over blew. I think he over exaggerates his. Himself like he was a megalomaniac. And this is really common with all these guys like Parsons Crowley, even like the contactee experience that we're talking about with streamer here. There's a common thread of megalomania and this is an American thing, right? You don't really see this so much in like I, I don't know about Chinese counterculture, but I feel like with other cultures that are not this hyper individualistic project like Americanism, you're probably not going to manifest these weird singular megalomaniac cult figures because I think liberalism and classical liberalism and, and you know, the American project, the Enlightenment project kind of exalts that almost, you know, you know,

[C]

do you know, don't. Do you know about B. Valaru in Romania, his cult?

[B]

No.

[C]

Yeah, he's a great example of this. We did a podcast because he basically created a yoga cult when communism fell in Romania after Celscescu and prior to that he had been actually documented as a very notorious sort of con man, likely figure by the Soviets and the, the communists. So he had this whole file on him when he was even a teenager about these proclivities. And then when communism failed in Romania, he immediately set up a yoga cult. It's the subject of a whole documentary. And he's. I think he's the most famous like modern cult leader in Romania. His name is. It's worth what we did. A people could check out the podcast Jamie and I did.

[B]

If anyone has a link, make sure to put a link in the chat.

[C]

His name is. And it's a really, there's a really funny clip where he went on Romanian television and he did this thing where he was like. He's like, well I. I have such intense yoga meditation powers that I'm going to demonstrate to all of Romania right now on TV that I can broadcast to you. My love vibes. So he like rolls his eyes back on. On Romanian TV and for like two minutes straight he's like. He starts grunt. He starts grunting and breathing. And the guy looks like a total slob, like every like you know, Herbert cult leader you would ever imagine. Like he looks like he runs a prawn shop right that's what, that's what Elrod Hubbard looks.

[B]

Looks like. But it's amazing because he was just, you know what they. And Strange angel does a good job at characterizing him because they show how a lot of people hated him. So people who met him either loved him or hated him. If they saw through the, the facade and the act, they would give statements like, somebody gave a statement this later interview and they said, I actually, I despised him. I could tell he was a con man. He was constantly scanning your reaction to see if you were buying into his nonsense. And he's just telling these stories constantly about like, oh, I fought a polar bear and then I wrestled with these, you know, these got shot by arrows and look at my scar. And I've got. He's just constantly rattling off these stories. But he was a weird kind of like autodidact type character who could learn things real quick, read people. And he also, he would, he would type 3,000 words and not need revision.

[C]

Yeah, he would drink a gallon of coffee and type like entire books, like non stop.

[B]

But so he was like automatic writing, kind of tuning into some spiritual stuff.

[C]

And one thing about Bibalaro was that he's an example of once. And I'm not pro Soviet, but the Soviets had these rules against any religion and that would include all the cults. But once neoliberalism came in to, you know, these former Soviet countries, it's not an accident that you get the immediate explosion of all the cults. The same thing happened in Ukraine, Russia, the Baltic, all the areas that were formerly Soviet Soviet satellites. Once the Soviet regime fell, immediately, it's all just coals popping off everywhere. You can watch. I've watched tons of documentaries just on cult leaders in, in Ukraine. Once communism failed in Ukraine, it was like all of a sudden you got like, there's 20 Jesuses out in the woods, dudes that claim to be Jesus. It's crazy.

[B]

Isn't that funny? So as soon it. It really is kind of this Western American phenomenon. Now, I'm not saying that it's. I think part of it is grassroots and it's the logical conclusion of the world view of Protestantism taken to its logical conclusion. Every man a prophet, every man his own interpreter of scripture. So it's. This is the result. This is what you get. You get ufo, cosmic Cosby cults where, you know, the aliens come and drug you and then do butt stuff on you. And then you say, oh, well, maybe that's me in the. From the future coming back to enlighten me and help to show me like how to get beyond my bigotry or whatever. It's, it's whacked out stuff. I mean, check this out. So a little bit later on he starts writing about these experiences he has and he basically describes like religious ecstasy. So he said as soon as I relaxed, it was as if I had opened a hatch into another world. They swarmed me, climbing up out of my unconscious, grasping at me. This was not memory. It only worked through the medium of memory. It was meeting me on every level, caressing me as well as capturing me. This emergence was like a kind of internal birth. But what was being born was no bubbling infant. What came out, what came into my conscious mind was a living, aware force. And I had a relationship with it. Not a fluttering new one, but something rich and mature that ranged across the whole scale of emotions, included all of my time. I had to face it. Whatever it was, I had to be involved with it had to be involved with me. It had been involved with me for years. I really squirmed. What might be hidden in the dark part of my mind? I thought then that I was dancing on the thinnest edge of my soul. Below me were vast spaces, totally unknown. Not psychiatry, not religion, not biology could penetrate that depth. None of them had any real idea of what lives within. They only knew what little it had chosen to reveal of itself. So it's. I mean this is full on religious ecstasy. Total. He's describing an experience of communion, which is what the book is titled, because ultimately he sees what he was experiencing with these so called aliens, which they're really described to be something more like like the demons or the fairies or like which we would say would be demonic, so highly demonic. And then also aspects of possible mind control. I would say there's a lot of circumstantial things around this case that could point to like elf VLF stuff because even he starts talking about hearing voice. Yep, yep, like voice. The skulls type stuff is like I wanted to approach this from. Where'd it go? Oh, there it is. The brain is an electrical device. As such, it has a faint electromagnetic field that even emits very, very weakly in the radio part of the spectrum. Specifically, it contains a portion of extra low frequency electromagnetic field wave at frequency between 1 and 30 hertz. The heart and musculature also develop electromagnetic fields in the extra low frequency range. A more acute technology than our own might be able to mediate mental and physical functioning to a great degree by the use of sensitive elf transmitters and receivers. It's more prosaic, perhaps, than the magic of extrasensory perception, but is just enough plausibility to suggest that external control of the mind and even the implantation of perceptions, hearing voices inside the head is not beyond the realm of possibility. So right there, that could be a paragraph from a A even like a scholarly treatment of the MK Ultra era type stuff and the experiments that were being done clandestinely in the United States using hospitals, using psychiatry, using universities. So that. That is a really weird one. So he starts talking about this, the VLF Elf type stuff, and also continues with the abuse memories. Like, at one point he. He seems to be so Pavlovian. He's programmed in almost a Pavlovian way to where as soon as he's introduced to this entity, he says, certainly it did not seem human at all. Under hypnosis, I described the approach of the small figure wearing the strange cards and helmet. So there's this weird, like, costume garb that they wear, which is basically said it's like a card and had a symbol on it. He starts talking about the symbol of the triangle being everywhere. So there's always this symbol of the triangle that there. These entities have that they're involved with. And then he connects that later on with like, old pyramids and maybe like ancient civilizations. All this does all the, you know, New Age kind of whoa, bro stuff. So he says he stood all tiny and bursting with firmness at my bedside, and I made a semaphore jest and made a semaphore gesture with his fists. I leaped out of bed, threw off my pajamas and presented myself naked to him and his soldiers. Thoughts of the good army from filling my head. There was nothing human about him except that he had two arms, two legs and a head. Like, that's. That's some crazy, weird, freaky stuff. So he. He sees the visitors at this point, and it's just like, time to get naked. What's up, guys? Like, yo, I see alien.

[C]

I want to hump, right? I like that. It's right straight up. And it's like logical necessity. See alien hump immediately. Now, I got a question. In the movie. In the movie, they do the cha cha. Does he discuss that? In the book

[B]

they tango.

[C]

Excuse me? Tango. Whatever.

[B]

Yeah. This is more formal. Yeah, no, they put on formal wear and they. They go, no, he doesn't know, but he does.

[C]

Why would that be a stretch?

[B]

Like, that's what I'm saying. Like, no joke. You make. Could not be in the book. Like any stupid thing you say that they did.