Pt 2 FREMASONS vs JAY DYER DEBATE REVIEW

Summary

Jay'sAnalysis Podcast Summary

Episode: Pt 2 FREMASONS vs JAY DYER DEBATE REVIEW
Host: Jay Dyer
Guests/Participants: Tristan, Tristana, Chase, Ryan, Moderator, Discerning Catholic, multiple callers
Date: May 3, 2026

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Overview

This episode of Jay'sAnalysis provides a thorough review and live commentary of Jay Dyer’s recent debate with Freemasons on whether Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity. The episode, co-hosted with Tristan and Tristana, includes extensive review of debate clips, analysis of the arguments, meta-commentary, and live Q&A. The tone is irreverent, polemical, and at times humorous, loaded with inside jokes and engaging banter.

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Main Themes

• Compatibility of Freemasonry and Christianity:
  The heart of the discussion is whether Masonic beliefs, rituals, and requirements can be reconciled with the exclusivity and dogmas of historic Christianity, particularly Orthodox Christianity.
• Dogma, Relativism, and Authority:
  Jay and his panel scrutinize the claim by Freemasons that their society is non-dogmatic and compatible with a wide range of beliefs, challenging this by highlighting implicit and explicit dogmatic/theological requirements within Freemasonry.
• Subjectivism and Syncretism:
  The conversation repeatedly addresses the issue of whether Freemasonry’s “generic theism” is essentially relativistic and thus antithetical to Christianity's exclusivity claim.
• Ritual, Symbolism, and Religious Parallels:
  An exploration of whether Freemasonry is "just a philosophy" or functions in effect as a religion, based on ritual, initiation, and religious symbolism.

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Discussion Breakdown

1. Absolute Truth and Relativism

Timestamps: 00:30–05:34

• The Freemason participants (Chase, Ryan) suggest that absolute truth is unattainable, referencing Albert Pike.
• Jay and Tristan repeatedly point out the contradiction: If you say “no one knows absolute truth,” you are making an absolute statement.
• Jay: "That's still Satanic in principle." [00:30]
• Tristan: "It's a contradiction to say that, oh, for me personally, Jesus is the absolute way, the truth and life, but nobody has absolute way, the truth and life." [04:15]

2. Is Freemasonry a Religion?

Timestamps: 01:26–03:27, 41:30–44:43

• Masons claim not to be a religion but a philosophical society that encourages belief in a Supreme Being.
• Jay counters: Masonic rituals, oaths, and the use of Old Testament symbolism (e.g., Jachin and Boaz, the temple) are inherently religious.
• Tristana: "We're talking about a... secret society with levels of oaths, initiations... that's not AA." [02:50]
• Jay: "It's not just a philosophy, it's replete with theological meaning." [43:12]

3. Dogma and Normative Authority

Timestamps: 05:47–16:30

• Freemasons initially claim there’s no dogma, then gradually admit to several dogmatic requirements (belief in God, being male, etc.).
• Jay presses the issue, showing inconsistency: “You have theological requirements. That’s not open.” [10:04]
• Tristana: "Freemasonry is just a decentralized group of popes." [06:23]
• Argument over authority in the church—Jay points out Protestants/Masons reject historical/normative authority but operate with practical, decentralized authority in their own organizations.

4. Compatibility with Christianity

Timestamps: 16:30–38:45

• Key point: Jay asserts that “generic theism” required by Masonry directly contradicts the unique truth claims of Christianity (esp. Christ as the way).
• Ryan/Chase insist membership requirements are minimal, but Jay demonstrates that practical exclusions go far beyond the requirement for belief in a Supreme Being.
• Jay: "There is no such thing as generic theism." [17:40]
• Tristan highlights Masonry's boundaries in contrast with Protestant Christianity's lack thereof: "Masonry has boundaries, landmarks and grand lodges... but Christianity doesn't." [20:27]

5. Ethical Standards and Sources

Timestamps: 32:07–36:56; 91:09–92:38

• Jay asks how Masons determine what is "good" if members can import ethics from any religion.
• Ryan ultimately admits: “We pull from a lot of different religions… for our ethics.” [91:27]
• This admission is seen as undermining the earlier claims that Masonry is purely philosophical and not religious.

6. Initiations, Rituals, and Oaths

Timestamps: 37:19–40:46

• Discussion of Masonic oaths—the distinction between “blood oaths” and standard oaths like those taken in courts or marriages.
• Jay challenges the symbolism and seriousness of Masonic oaths and the secrecy surrounding them.

7. Syncretism and Role of Jesus in Masonry

Timestamps: 44:49–53:53

• Jay points to the inclusion of “Jabulon” (a syncretistic Masonic name for God) and symbolic use of Jewish Kabbalah as contrary to Christian dogma.
• Masons sidestep direct explanations, asserting that Masonry never makes explicit claims about the nature or name of God.
• Jay: "The requirement you say [is to] believe in the Supreme Being. You are attaching predicates that specify certain types of things." [72:49]

8. Final Arguments and ‘Gotcha’ Moments

Timestamps: 66:13–74:48; 91:09–92:38

• Jay relentlessly identifies and calls out logical inconsistencies, e.g., quantifier shift fallacy (“Just because all religions have a God doesn't mean it's the same God.” [65:43]).
• Ryan ultimately admits: “Perhaps, if you want to label it that way,” to the presence of theological qualifiers. [75:26]
• Jay seizes on Ryan’s admission about sourcing ethics from diverse religions, describing it as the debate’s decisive point.

9. Audience Q&A / Notable Questions and Moments

Timestamps: 78:57–90:13

• Audience asks about the canon of Scripture, difference between working in a secular corporation and joining Masonry, and the problem of being "unequally yoked."
• Jay and the panel highlight how Masonry’s ethical inclusivity ultimately sets it at odds with core Christian principles.
• Memorable meta-commentary about the lack of audience laughter rendered in the recording, and on audience super chats.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• Jay Dyer:

  • “It’s a contradiction. I'm arguing you guys contradict yourself. That's what you do in debates as you point out logical contradictions.” [12:05]
  • “You have theological requirements. That’s not open.” [10:04]
  • “The requirement you say [is to] believe in the Supreme Being. You are attaching predicates that specify certain types of things. And then when you explain what that is, you say that it can't be theistic Satanism and it can't be me being God. So you refute yourself when you explain the terms.” [72:49]
  • On quantifier shift: “I have one mother, you have one mother, you have one mother, therefore we all have the same mother. That's a fallacy.” [65:43]

• Tristan:

  • "Masonry has boundaries, landmarks and grand lodges that determine your regular and irregular status, but Christianity doesn't have that. Hilarious." [20:27]
  • "It's not a question of any kind of authority. It's a question of are you actually bound by authorities? And thus, if you are, that violates the idea that there are no authorities." [25:29]
  • On the debate pattern: "They keep going back to, well, personally I could believe that and I could see a person becoming. I'm not asking is it actually physically possible in history that a person thought they were a socialist and a Christian? The question is, is it consistent..." [21:32]

• Tristana:

  • "Freemasonry is just a decentralized grouping of individual popes who get to decide what the dogmas of Freemasonry are." [06:23]
  • "You know, it's aping liturgical practices. So, you know, it’s kind of Protestants just. That's natural for human beings to. We all want the liturgy." [25:05]

• Chase (Freemason):

  • “The only theological requirement for membership is that you believe in a Supreme Being.” [62:53]
  • “Masonry does not claim which God is the real God. Requiring... [belief in a] Supreme Being is not a religion, it’s a secular...” [71:05]
  • “There is no personification of a specific God in Freemasonry.” [72:43]

• Ryan (Freemason):

  • “We pull from a lot of different religions in [our ethics]…” [91:27] — this admission is seized upon as a decisive contradiction.

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Critical Timestamps

• 00:30–05:34: Core discussion on absolute truth and relativism.
• 10:04: Jay presses the inconsistency of Masonic dogmas.
• 20:27: Comparison of Masonic and Christian boundaries.
• 32:07–34:07: The question of how Masons define the “good.”
• 41:30–44:43: Symbolism in Masonry, "is it a religion?"
• 62:53–66:34: The debate over the "one dogma" claim and actual exclusions.
• 91:09–92:38: "We pull from religions" — the decisive ethical contradiction.

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Memorable and Humorous Moments

• Multiple mock arguments where Jay, Tristan, and Tristana mimic or satirize the Masonic debate tactics, highlighting how repeatedly the Freemasons shift or “move the goalpost” in their responses.
• “It's not a religious... It's not a theological society. Where do you get your ethic? We pull from religions.” [91:09]
• Comparison of Freemasonry with Alcoholics Anonymous or the Boy Scouts as a “false equivalence.”
• Several sideline jokes and running gags about “peepees and VJs,” “free thinking society of men,” and comically exaggerated inside jokes about protestants, Masonry, and online personalities.
• Multiple references to pop culture (Indiana Jones, Temple of Doom, etc.) as analogies for Masonic practices.

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Audience/Listener Interaction

• Jay, Tristan, and Tristana regularly address live audience comments, super chats, and take questions from listeners after the main debate review.
• Laughter about audience reactions, inside jokes, and self-deprecating banter about technical issues.

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Conclusions

• Jay and his panel repeatedly score rhetorical points against the Freemasons by showing that their foundational claims (no dogma, just a philosophy) do not survive under scrutiny.
• Key argument: Freemasonry is essentially a religious organization with its own implicit dogmas and boundaries, and its 'generic theism' is fundamentally incompatible with historic Christian truth claims.
• The recurring charges are logical contradiction, inconsistency, and a tendency to slide between appeals to subjective preference and supposed official neutrality.
• Final consensus among the Jay'sAnalysis team and supportive audience is that Jay “won” the debate handily, with the most consequential “gotcha” being Ryan’s admission of the arbitrariness and religious nature of Masonic ethics.

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For Further Listening

• The episode concluded with several lighthearted QAs, call-ins, and super chats, plus further discussion about future interview possibilities and references to other apologetic and polemical works.
• The overall vibe: high-level polemics with a populist, humorous edge appealing to listeners interested in debates on theology, esoterica, and Christian apologetics.

Transcript

[Bus Driver]

I drive my bus in a busy city. That's why road safety is so important to me. I know that I must slow down and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safely. Learn how at www.sharetherodesafely.gov.

[Jay Dyer]

nobody has perfect truth or absolute truth. So maybe it's out there, but it doesn't exist and we don't have it. Fine, cast it however you want. That's still Satanic in principle.

[Chase]

So, I mean, even the fact that Albert pike in that sentence is saying that absolute truth is unattainable is implicitly stating that Freemasonry makes no claims to have absolute truth.

[Tristan]

Okay, is it absolutely true that absolute truth is unattainable? Let's go back to precept 101.

[Tristana]

Right?

[Tristan]

They keep skirting the point that I'm making and trying to make this into some game, and it's not a game.

[Chase]

Okay, so the Bible, not actually the

[Jay Dyer]

island, the Bible and truth and Christ don't have absolute truth.

[Chase]

Well, you don't necessarily have to believe that you can be a Mason and disagree with Albert Pike.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. So it's subjectivist and relativist. That's my point.

[Tristan]

And that's what he keeps admitting.

[Jay Dyer]

My point, Satanism. So it's absolutely. It's absolutely synthesizable with Satanism.

[Ryan]

It simply does not concern itself with that. If we were a religion in making these claims, I think you'd have a better case. Okay, there's plenty. There's plenty of groups within society. The Boy Scouts, for example. There's bad example.

[Jay Dyer]

The context. The contest of the context of Albert Pike.

[Ryan]

There's. There's tons of groups that have certain base level requirements, but then leave subjects that are not the purview or the.

[Culpepper]

The.

[Tristan]

This is where they try to shift into it being a civic organization like Boy Scouts. And that's not what it is.

[Chase]

Like Anonymous is an example. We've done this a little bit. Let's use Alcoholics Anonymous as an example. You have to believe in a higher

[Jay Dyer]

power in order to go based on Masonic principles.

[Ryan]

Aas.

[Chase]

Yeah. So you think that Alcoholics Anonymous inherently denies Christ or is incompatible.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a straw man.

[Chase]

No, I'm not trying to do this. I'm not trying to with you. Excuse me, guys, but do you believe that alcohol. This is not Intentionally, a straw man or distraction? I just want to know your answer. Do you believe that Alcoholics Anonymous is incompatible with Christianity in the same way that you believe Freemasonry is incompatible?

[Jay Dyer]

It depends on how far Alcoholics Anonymous would try to enforce their principles of generic theism. So it really depends. And I mean, there's state.

[Chase]

There's a degree there to say there's a degree to which it's acceptable.

[Jay Dyer]

Their statements are sufficiently vague to allow for all kinds of possible things. So that would really depend upon the specifics. But Albert pike is arguing that also,

[Tristan]

it's not a religious initiation with oaths. Right. Alcohol, it's like therapy. Right. So I'm not sure I buy the. Even though AA has some elements of Masonry as part of it, I'm not sure that it's equivalent to the Masonic initiation and brotherhood. That's why I keep having to stress that's agree.

[Tristana]

Yes. It's kind of comparing apples to oranges. It's like we're talking about a, you know, a secret society with levels of oaths, initiation.

[Tristan]

That and religious initiation. That's where this ends up going in.

[Tristana]

And inherently deceptive oaths and initiation that compound on each other and compile on each other with oath of initiation that also contradict Christ. Christian dogma.

[Tristan]

Exactly.

[Tristana]

Alcoholics Anonymous just like, oh, you got to believe in a higher power. And then, you know, we sit, we do our group therapy thing or whatever. It's. It's very, very different from.

[Tristan]

Well, and that's the same point I make with saying the Pledge of Allegiance later. So, yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Context of God. This whole chapter is about theology, not philosophy. Theology. So he's saying that in terms of theology, perfect truth. Truth is not attainable anywhere. Do you believe that perfect truth is not attainable anywhere?

[Chase]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the way, the truth and the light. But I don't believe that in our current state, we're able to have like, an. An omniscient understanding of absolute truth. I think there's all sorts of things happening in the universe. I don't know. There's what you know, there's what you don't know. There's what you don't know that you don't know. I don't claim, just because I'm a Christian to have attained absolute truth. I believe that I've attained absolute truth in the sense that I know who God is.

[Tristan]

Say that again.

[Tristana]

The way the truth and the life. But I don't think you can actually know that or have any.

[Tristan]

Yeah, that's what that's actually.

[Tristana]

I think it's actually dogmatic. It's dogmatic to me that you can't have certainty that Christ is the way.

[Tristan]

Exactly.

[Tristana]

Yeah.

[Tristan]

That's where this argument keeps going, right? It's like you don't understand that it's a contradiction to say that, oh, for me personally, Jesus is the absolute way, the truth and life. But nobody has absolute way, the truth and life.

[Jay Dyer]

Knowledge is silly, isn't?

[Chase]

I believe that Jesus Christ is the

[Tristana]

son of God, just denied Christ to.

[Tristan]

That's the argument. Right. Christianity's claims are antithetical to the syncretist, subjectivist, relativist claims of Masonry. That's the whole point here.

[Chase]

So in the sense that would you call. I mean, would you call that absolute truth? Because when I hear the word absolute truth, I mean all truth, I think of all truth.

[Jay Dyer]

So there's nothing in the word absolute truth or objective truth that necessitates omniscience. And so I think that the irony here is that it's the Mason.

[Chase]

Yes, I believe you want to play the word game. I'm not trying to mess with you. I believe in absolute truth. I am an objectivist. I am not a subjectivist. Okay, just to answer your question more.

[Tristan]

Now he's contradicted again because Albert pike says that that's unattainable.

[Jay Dyer]

So the whole point of this was to say that the teachings of Satanism are that you are your own God, which is what Satan says in the Garden to Adam and Eve. You determine reality. You determine what's true and what's false. And the original presentation that you guys gave as to why Masonry is so awesome is because it doesn't have apostles, it doesn't have authorities, it doesn't have dogmas. It's simply a philosophy. And you can kind of craft it as you want with it from within it. But then we saw that, no, there's actually a lot of requirements, a lot of dogmas, a lot of qualifications, and they teach a subjectivist relativist idea at the same time as contradicting it with the idea that there are dogmas and authorities. That was the argument.

[Chase]

I don't believe that Freemasonry teaches a subjectivist relativist philosophy.

[Tristan]

Okay?

[Chase]

Just because Albert Pike. Just because Albert pike says that absolute truth is unattainable does not mean that absolute truth does not exist. I am an Objectivist. I believe in that. It's just his opinion.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, who does it matter in. In Masonry in terms of who said it? Because there were authorities, apparently. So who determines the regular and the irregular lodges.

[Ryan]

So I can go back to that with these ideas of the landmarks. Each lodge, each Grand Lodge is the supreme authority in that jurisdiction. It will recognize or unrecognize a.

[Tristan]

You're right, fda. This is the exact same. And trust in this exact same Deb with every Protestant about normative authority. Yeah, my local pastor has normative authority, but nobody tells me. And combine my conscience and just tells me what. What. It's just like.

[Tristana]

Well, Freemasonry is just a decentralized groups of popes. It's. It's a decentralized grouping of individual popes who get to decide what the dogmas of Freemasonry are.

[Guest Speaker]

But also.

[Tristana]

That's not dogmatic.

[Tristan]

That's also not dogmatic. But it is.

[Tristana]

But that's also dogmatic. Yeah, it's. It's all over the place. This is horrible. This is really sad. I don't think they've really. It doesn't seem like they've watched your. Like any of your previous.

[Tristan]

I don't think they've thought about this. No, they haven't thought about this at a debate level. Chase. What's up, man?

[Tristana]

Hey. It was kind of funny listening to this last. Last section of the debate, how much it reminds me of, obviously. Yeah, like the Protestants, like, like that girl Tristan was saying. But also it reminds me of the ecumenists, too. Absolutely reminds me of the ecumenists that attack anyone who says orthodoxy is the truth. You know, like goofy, goofy effeminate people like Ethan Wayne and stuff like that. They have the same exact line of thinking.

[Tristan]

Well, Ethan Wayne. Ethan Wayne is a Freemason. He shares Masonic stuff all the time.

[Tristana]

Oh, he does?

[Tristan]

Yeah, he shares.

[Ryan]

He shares.

[Tristan]

He shares Masonic stuff.

[Tristana]

Yeah, it's just. It's just funny. It's not a very deep analysis, but it's the same exact mentality as the ecumenists trying to subvert orthodoxy from within, Whether they're Freemason or not. It's still the same mentality. And then when you ask them, I don't know if later in the debate, do you get into like, hey, how do you know that these other people are predicating the one, the same God as you? Do they. Do they ever give.

[Tristan]

No, we do.

[Discerning Catholic]

We do.

[Jay Dyer]

Principle.

[Tristan]

We do come back to the. This point of me trying to illustrate that they actually have all of these criteria that exclude people, which means that they've moved the goalpost and it's not just a higher power. So, yes, it does come back to that.

[Ryan]

Another Grand Lodge.

[Jay Dyer]

So there are authorities and there are things that will get you unrecognized.

[Ryan]

We've already there, Jay. So, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I'm sorry that you don't like me going back to it when you're referring to the same fallacious argument from before. I'm going to go back.

[Ryan]

Yeah. I don't see how anything I've said is incongruent. That there is a Masonic authority. There is a structure that governs a governance structure of the fraternity that is completely different than saying that one man, Albert pike, or my. I didn't make that argument as an authority. I didn't make the argument. Well, my argument was that they aren't authorities. And then you try to put words in my mouth and say that I saw man.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't.

[Ryan]

Which say that there are no authorities. Silent.

[Jay Dyer]

As you argued in your opening statement, there's no authorities.

[Ryan]

In the context of. I specifically pointed out those books and those authors. And I said that one man does not speak for Masonry. Not one man is a governance structure of Freemasonry.

[Jay Dyer]

So you're litigating and changing. You're moving the goalposts from the open opening statement saying authorities. And you're saying that. Oh, I just know one dude isn't.

[Chase]

In the opening statement, he said there is no one man who speaks for Masonry.

[Jay Dyer]

But he also said there's no apostles and authorities.

[Ryan]

So in no context.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, fine. So there are. There is an authority that is a body.

[Tristan]

Correct.

[Tristana]

On behalf of Freemasonry. He says that no man speaks on behalf of Freemasonry.

[Tristan]

Yeah, exactly. No one speaks on Freemasonry. And I speak for Freemasonry. From Albert pike. Speaking for Freemasonry.

[Tristana]

Speaking on. Speaking on behalf of Freemasonry. I can with full confidence say that no man speaks on behalf of Freemason.

[Tristan]

Exactly. That's this whole debate right here.

[Ryan]

There's a government structure.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you for horror.

[Tristana]

Like 15 different ways. This is crazy.

[Tristan]

Yeah, well, it gets crazy. We haven't even gotten heated yet. We are approaching the first half. We. We're not even got. We haven't even gotten heated yet.

[Jay Dyer]

Authorities. And you do have authorities that you submit to and you can be removed.

[Tristana]

I mean, it hasn't gotten past that one point at all yet.

[Tristan]

It takes the first hour to get past this point from the lodge, right?

[Tristana]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so why did you cast it as if it's a free thinking organization with no dogmas?

[Ryan]

I didn't cast it out. I. I started my opening statement by Saying that you were going to be bringing quotes from individuals and try. Which you did do when you pointed out that the name was Moles and dogma, you attempted to make the argument that this is Mason.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I didn't. No, you missed the argument. You're still fundamentally misunderstanding.

[Ryan]

And then when I corrected you that this, that the words of Albert pike are not Masonic dogma, we went in this circular argument.

[Jay Dyer]

It wasn't an arguer argument. It was a contradiction logically to say

[Tristan]

that there are dogmas, that there's. There's a dogma. That there's no dogmas.

[Chase]

There is.

[Jay Dyer]

I was making a jo.

[Chase]

Dogma that there's no dogmas.

[Ryan]

There's just.

[Jay Dyer]

No, there's.

[Ryan]

There's.

[Chase]

There's just few dogmas. Like if.

[Jay Dyer]

So there are dogmas.

[Chase]

Yes. If you would consider. But then the requirement. If you would consider the requirement.

[Tristan]

So now he's moved. Now he's admitted dogma as plural. Notice remember Chase said at the beginning, there's no dogmas, then it's okay, there's one dogma. Now he said dogmas plural, that you

[Chase]

have to believe in God in order to be a Freemason. A dogma. Then by that definition there is a dogma.

[Jay Dyer]

Did you not just then qualify that I can't be a Satanist and be a Mason, so there's now other qualifications that would exclude me. So there's more to the dogmas. That's why you guys are being dishonest. Well, is.

[Moderator]

Is the definition of dogma different for guys? That was why I was asking what

[Jay Dyer]

it is for orthodox and not the thing that gets you excluded from the group. How's that?

[Ryan]

Yeah, it's dogmas.

[Tristan]

Thank you.

[Jay Dyer]

The idea that there's not dogmas is not true. Thank you.

[Ryan]

That wasn't the point that was made. The point was that the words of Albert pike are not Masonic dogma.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's a straw man, dude. I didn't argue that his words are dogma. I said that it's funny that he titled his book Morals and Dogma. And I said the contradiction is the argument that the dogma is there's no dogma.

[Chase]

How is it compatible to claim that there are dogmas, which I'm not even disputing, but then simultaneously claim that the organization advocates for subjectivism and relativism. I mean, if there's absolute dogmas, then it's inherently not subjectivist or relativist.

[Bus Driver]

I drive my bus in a busy city. That's why road safety is so important to me. I know That I must slow down and be extra careful when I make a wide turn. Buses need more room than cars. Everyone can help keep our roads safe. Next time you're driving, remember to give buses plenty of time and space to finish turning before driving ahead. Let's all plan to share the road safely. Learn how at www.sharetheroad safely.gov.

[Jay Dyer]

exactly. That's the point, Chase. It's a contradiction. I'm arguing you guys contradict yourself. That's what you do in debates as you point out logical contradictions.

[Chase]

Okay. And can you tie it directly to how any of what we've been talking about for the last 20 minutes or so makes Freemasonry incompatible with Christianity? Well, which is the final question.

[Jay Dyer]

Can't affirm any kind of subjectivism and moral relativism in terms of even theological authorities. You have to believe that there's some kind of theological authorities which are the.

[Ryan]

Who and chased us.

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Who are the theological authorities, Jim?

[Chase]

Christ.

[Ryan]

Yeah. My dogma when it comes to my religion is. Is Christianity. It's not Freemason.

[Tristan]

Now we get prot Slop. This just turns into a total prot Slop here. I forgot this part.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so why Christianity?

[Ryan]

Me personally.

[Tristana]

You're showing them also that, like. Well, your justification for Protestantism is the same as the justification for authority within Freemasonry, which also affirms moral relativism.

[Jay Dyer]

Now.

[Tristana]

Well, my authority is myself and my own conscience. I read my Bible and I figure. I decode my Bible. I put on my Bible decoder hat and I.

[Guest Speaker]

And I just.

[Tristana]

And I do it.

[Tristan]

Yeah, you put it.

[Tristana]

I talk to God. I read the word of God. The word of God flows through me.

[Tristan]

It's like you pull out your. You pull out.

[Tristana]

Is that where it goes for the next hour now or.

[Tristan]

No, no, no, no. DJ's about to end this part pretty soon. No, you pull out your Joseph Smith peep stone and then you read the Bible text through the peep stone, and that's how you interpret it.

[Tristana]

You read the Bible text through the peep stone. But also you're a Freemason, so you're also. You're reading with your. Your pe stone and your yoni stone. Your. Your. Your Shival lingam and your. And your Shiva yoni.

[Ryan]

Loosely Protestant. I'd rather not like. And that's my congregation here. Would you.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Ryan]

Source. My family. Too much historic.

[Jay Dyer]

You're proud of historically? Are there bodies of people that can determine what's normative to be a Christian and not. Not be a Christian?

[Chase]

What do you mean by can? There certainly are that have. But what do you mean by can?

[Jay Dyer]

Do you believe that anybody has the normative authority to declare in church history at any point, whenever or whenever, that there are these people that count as Christians and these people that don't? Because it seems absurd to me because you guys accept this authority amongst the Masons, but I'm gon bet that historically you don't accept that there's any historical group that has that authority.

[Chase]

I would. I would say that Jesus Christ has

[Jay Dyer]

that authority solely historically chase after Jesus in history, in the history of the church.

[Chase]

Do I believe that anybody has the authority to speak for God or the theology of what's true or not true?

[Jay Dyer]

Does anybody in church history have enormous authority to declare who is and is not a part of this?

[Chase]

You mean actually legitimately have the authority or those who have exercised that authority? Because yes, I could look at the Nicene Council. I can say, all right, they had authority. They established this.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you believe that they have the normative authority to do that? No. You think they assert? No, I don't.

[Chase]

I don't really think that anybody has perfectly been able to spe for God since Jesus Christ.

[Tristan]

Okay, so notice that this is all back to prot Slop subjectivism, exactly like FDA and Tristan said it would go.

[Jay Dyer]

You agree or do you have a

[Ryan]

different position loosely with that? Yeah.

[Moderator]

Wait, do you accept the canon of Scripture now?

[Chase]

The canon of Scripture?

[Discerning Catholic]

Yeah.

[Chase]

Yes. 66 books, probably. I don't know. I don't know that it's relevant. I don't know that it's relevant.

[Jay Dyer]

So not relevant.

[Tristan]

Probably. I don't. I mean, I'm a Christian, but probably. I don't know.

[Tristana]

At some point you just saw like 10 different doors open that you could. Yeah, that's funny. There's a lot of different ways this could have gone from here. I'm curious where they go with it.

[Jay Dyer]

Who decides what books make up the Bible?

[Moderator]

Let me. I'm asking because he are.

[Chase]

Because the fundamental question of the debate is whether or not freemasonry is compatible with Christianity. I want to know what it's not. Which branch of Christianity.

[Jay Dyer]

I want to know what you think Christianity is that's relevant.

[Chase]

Why I think Christianity is belief that Jesus Christ is the son of God, that he died and rose again.

[Jay Dyer]

Why is it not a fair question to ask if you believe in church history that anybody has the authority to

[Chase]

be sitting here as a Muslim and having the same debate and making the same points? I was irrelevant what my Faith is referring.

[Ryan]

My point.

[Chase]

No, it's irrelevant what my faith is. How is it irrelevant to the question of whether or not Christianity is compatible with Freemasonry? You could have two atheists having the same debate where one said Christianity is compatible with Freemasonry and another atheist says

[Jay Dyer]

it's not because you claim to be Christian and representing a form of Christianity that's compatible. I want to know what you think

[Tristan]

Christianity is real quick.

[Moderator]

Just so I don't think this is actually swaying from the prompts because it's, it's actually really important whether or not you accept authority historically in the church or not. Because let's just say, for example, that you accept that the, you know, the, the. What's going to call the putting together of the books in, you know, whatever council that was. I can't think about this at right time right now. But nonetheless, there have been other declarations in the church that Freemasonry is to be condemned and you'll be excommunicated. So if you were to, you know, submit to authority in that sense, that'd be a direct contradiction to. So Freemasonry at the time.

[Chase]

Not.

[Ryan]

I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm not trying to make your point for you.

[Moderator]

I'm just trying to demonstrate that I think it actually is. Ties into the debate prompt.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm making the argument. Again, let me make it very clear. I'm making the argument that it's ironic that these individuals will accept a decentralized authority about who's in and out of Masonry, but when we ask them about Christianity, there's no actual authority or normative authority within church history to do anything like that. I think that's just absurd.

[Ryan]

Well, equating Freemasonry with a religion as such as Christianity is absurd. That's the point that we're, we're trying to make. And my Christian beliefs aren't important. But we're not here to debate.

[Jay Dyer]

But you said, you said in your opening statement. You said Christianity is above your tie to the lodge.

[Chase]

What?

[Ryan]

Or tied. No, I said.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you did.

[Moderator]

You said that duty personally submits.

[Jay Dyer]

You said the body of the mate to Christ is above the duty to the brothers.

[Chase]

The duty of a Mason to his own own faith.

[Ryan]

My, my duty is to Christ over the duty to the lodge.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Ryan]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

That's my point exactly.

[Moderator]

Or you see personally as them. Or more broadly as like all people,

[Ryan]

just like any other. I'm a member of the National City Club. It's a private club downtown.

[Jay Dyer]

False equivalent. There's no to equate that to Freemasonry

[Tristan]

is a total, totally false.

[Ryan]

Take your pick of any group.

[Jay Dyer]

You know, those groups don't require a belief in generic monotheism.

[Chase]

And, well, I think Y Anonymous was a legit example. I mean, this is an organization that requires a belief in a Supreme Being in order to go through the 12 steps. It's part of the 12 steps.

[Jay Dyer]

But your organization is not just requiring belief in a generic theism, as we've seen. As we actually suss that out, there's all of these other things that come into play, which is. And I'm arguing that the rest of the ethos of that system and the teachings that you guys have is antithetical to Christianity. First of all, there is no such thing as generic theism. And I'm illustrating that with the Satanic point.

[Chase]

Yeah, and what is it Freemasonry doesn't advocate? That generic theism is true. It just accepts people of all faiths.

[Ryan]

If they believe in it, it never makes a claim.

[Tristan]

This is even more absurd. So now the Supreme Being, the Higher Being doesn't even have to be real. You just have to affirm the proposition that there's a higher Supreme Being, all

[Ryan]

faiths are equal, that we're all. It's all the same God.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so how do you reconcile the. The potential. Could I, for example, be a member of a. The Communist Party? Because they don't make any claims about anything. Let's say that there's a bunch of Marxist Communists and I say I'm a Christian Marxist. Is that. Does that make sense?

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[Ryan]

i'm not following you. Sorry.

[Chase]

He's asking if it's possibly a Christian and a Marx.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it antithetical to be a Christian and a member of the Marxist Party?

[Ryan]

I would say so.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, probably.

[Chase]

Is it.

[Jay Dyer]

Is it antithetical to be a member of a gnostic sect?

[Chase]

And to be sure, there are examples of people that felt that they were Marxist and Christian?

[Jay Dyer]

That's not what I. But my theory asked, is it theologically compatible?

[Ryan]

Am I saying no? I would say no.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Is it theologically sensible to be a Christian, an agnostic?

[Chase]

You know what? I think I might change my position. I'm not a communist by any means. I hate communism. But I think you could be a Christian, anti communist, because I think that we all, we all miss the mark.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Tristan]

What does that have to do with whether it's theologically compatible? So, you know, every time it comes back to the actual question, it hinges on their subjective feelings, not the actual objective argumentation. Tristan, do you want to say something?

[Tristana]

Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's ridiculous because the whole debate, I mean, I guess you knew this going in because of the debate prompt. You were just like, okay, this is, this is kind of a softball because. Well, the debate is about whether Freemasonry is compatible with Christianity. But from. For most Protestants, they can't even define who's a Christian, what's a Christian. There are no, there are no boundaries.

[Tristan]

There's no landmarks.

[Tristana]

They talk about landmarks to the body of Christ. It's just, it's kind of up to them to decide. So it's so noticed.

[Tristan]

Masonry has boundaries, landmarks and grand lodges that determine your regular and irregular status, but Christianity doesn't have that.

[Tristana]

Hilarious. Yeah, well, it's funny because Masonry is kind of an artifact of a world before Protestantism became so boundaryless. Right. I guess.

[Tristan]

Right.

[Tristana]

Protestantism didn't reach its logical conclusions yet, but Masonry has maintained the traditions of that world and that reality of kind of the pre. Victorian, Victorian elite. And they're like their machinations and their, their pet, not ecumenism, but pet perennialism project. It maintained their tradition better than Protestantism did. That's crazy.

[Chase]

Our attempts to be Christian. I mean, there's so many different ways that I think any of us could be pointed out, certainly in judgment, the ways that we've behaved or acted or believed. That's hypocritical to the, to the, to the faith. And so I would say that if somebody really genuinely believes that Jesus Christ died, rose again for the forgiveness of all sins, and they happen to be of a communist persuasion, even though those philosophies are inherently incompatible. I can't really think of any political philosophy that's 100.

[Tristan]

Again, the question wasn't are there people who are deluded who join the Marxist party and believe that they're Christians? The, the art. The question was, is it theologically consistent and compatible? So he doesn't. Again, they don't. They never answer the question in terms of like whether it's objectively consistent. They keep going Back to, well, personally I could believe that and I could see a person becoming. I'm not asking is it actually physically possible in history that a person thought they were a socialist and a Christian? The question is, is it consistent growing

[Chase]

with Christianity, other than just Christianity, is

[Jay Dyer]

it possible to be a gnostic and a Christian at the same time?

[Chase]

Define Gnosticism.

[Jay Dyer]

The early Christian sects that teach the

[Ryan]

gnostic teaching belief is Gnosticism is heretical, but I think, I think a Gnostic would believe themselves to be so again,

[Jay Dyer]

you keep saying my personal beliefs. You don't think that is objectively the case. You just think that it's subjective. So this is the Masonic might double.

[Chase]

He's saying it's true because this is personal belief.

[Ryan]

Yeah, well, they're Protestants, right?

[Moderator]

So I mean, aren't you the only. So Orthodox and Catholics would say different than. I mean, is it up to each Protestant to decide that for themselves?

[Jay Dyer]

You gave a different framework of.

[Moderator]

Of belief than you do.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, like the initial argument that there's no authorities which was qualified to be. There are authorities in the sense of bodies who govern the Masonic orders and decide who's in and who's out, tells me again that what you find is at every point, when you really boil into what they mean, it gets redefined to be the very thing that they initially said in the sales pitch is not that right. So the sales pitch is it's a free thinking society of men building a better world to make men better. What is the standard by which you judge and know what makes something better or good? What's the value judgment there?

[Chase]

You know, that's a good question. I don't know that it's explicit. There are certainly opinions.

[Jay Dyer]

There's certainly a culture though it's relative.

[Chase]

But it's not arguing for relativism. It's arguing for everybody pursuing the best version of themselves without making so many explicit claims. Let me ask you this, Jay. Would you say, would you say that Lutheranism is incompatible with Christianity?

[Jay Dyer]

We don't recognize Lutheranism as Christianity.

[Chase]

Okay, what about any form of Protestantism, whether it's Baptist, Church of Christ, just not Christian.

[Tristan]

This is an emotional appeal. So Chase goes into just appealing to the audience that if I'm not a humanist, than I'm mean. So I think I call this out

[Jay Dyer]

as an emotional appeal too Christian in name, but not authentically.

[Tristana]

Okay, so these illustrates when the debate we had with them and he was like, do you what do you orthodox believe that Roman Catholics worship the same goddess? And I was like, I'm trying to be terrible if you push me. Probably not. And they use that as an emotional appeal.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, look how.

[Tristan]

Look how mean they are. Yeah, yeah.

[Tristana]

But what they're doing is opening the audience to question the absurdity of Protestantism and the. I mean, you made a great point earlier when you brought up that there are more clear dogmas and boundaries to Freemasonry than there are to even most Protestants conception of what. Who Christ is in the Christ Church. So it's. It's an insane position to take. You know what I was thinking, too? I mean, just that, like a spiritual and psychological kind of a psychospiritual level. I wonder. You know, part of the appeal of Masonry almost seems to be. It's like the. The aesthetics of liturgy that Masonry has adopted because Masonry and the rights of Freemasonry are very liturgically. They're like shadowing liturgical practices and the hierarchy of, you know, the worshipful Master.

[Tristan]

I bring that up later. Yeah, that comes up. That comes up later.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Tristana]

You know, it's aping liturgical practices. So, you know, it's kind of Protestants just. That's natural for human beings to. We all want the liturgy. We're all. We all want Christ. The fullness of Christ and the lack of. Of that in the Protestant world would maybe even lead a lot of people to try and join Masonry to kind of scratch that. It.

[Tristan]

So whole facts says. For $5. Could the Masons have an argument if they said the Orthodoxy doesn't have a central structure or a Pope either? No, the question is not about a centralized authority versus no authority. The question is, are there authorities at all? I don't care if you think it's a decentralized body of regional grand lodges or whether you think that there is one Pope. It's not a question of any kind of authority. It's a question of are you actually bound by authorities? And thus, if you are, that violates the idea that there are no authorities. And I'm not bound by anything in my conscience. That's. That's the point. Junior, do you want to say something? John, did you want to say something?

[Tristana]

Well, no. Everything you guys have been saying is really good in regards to the commentary. But like, at the time of. Of

[Ryan]

when.

[Tristana]

When Mazini is coming into Italy, there's like. Like, I don't understand how Masons can't understand that they're all organized under something directly against the Catholic Church. Right. So they're asking for no authority, no central authority. But then they themselves are going to be the new central authority. It seems very simple philosophically now, but these guys don't seem to recognize that that's an organizing force around the world, whether it's French Revolution or, you know, subsequent Jacobin things.

[Tristan]

Right. Yeah, they. They move the goalpost to make it about whether it's a centralized authority.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't care.

[Tristan]

The original statement was May. And even. Even pike says this Masonry has no authorities. I'm arguing that they contradict. I don't know why this is so hard for these people to understand. It's just like the Mason. The Mason mind f. Because I know Albert pike says that there's no dogmas and they're free thinkers, but I'm arguing that that contradicts the idea that you have to believe in these basic dogmas. As Chase admitted. That's the contradiction. That's the argument. I'm not asking. Does some Mason somewhere say you don't have to believe in any dogmas, or is there a centralized Pope of the Masons? I never. I said that. That was never the argument.

[Chase]

Only legitimate, authentic Christians, in your point of view, are Greek Orthodox.

[Tristan]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Any Orthodox.

[Chase]

Any Orthodox.

[Ryan]

Excuse me.

[Chase]

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth. Okay, so if you are not an Orthodox Christian, even if you think that you're going to a Christian church or you're a Christian, you're not legitimately a Christian. You're either mistaken or fallen or.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, how is that incompatible with.

[Chase]

I'm not making a claim. I just wanted to point, a rhetorical

[Jay Dyer]

point to make me seem like the dogmatist and you guys are the free thinkers, which is why I preemptively argued at the beginning that they're actually dogmatists and not free thinkers.

[Ryan]

Yeah, we can. We've. We've talked a lot about, like, what we're not and all this, but I'm happ to just talk about what we are. You can call a dogma if you're a sales pitch.

[Chase]

I'm just, you know, for the sake of the audience listening online or here, Jay does not believe that you're a Christian unless you're Orthodox.

[Ryan]

Yeah. So.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, this was a rhetorical note. It's not an argument. It's a rhetorical. This didn't appeal to the audience fallacy. I want everybody to note that.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Chase]

All right, let me ask you this, and let me ask you a little bit different question. Can you.

[Ryan]

Anyone just like to know, can you believe.

[Chase]

Can you be. What's an example? Like another secular organization? Can you be a member of The Green Party and a Christian or is the Green Party incompatible with Christianity, the Libertarian Party? How about another example? Can you be a formal member, dues paying member whatever of the Libertarian Party?

[Culpepper]

And.

[Chase]

And is. Is that valuable as Christianity?

[Jay Dyer]

Your question is a false analogy. Comparing it to the Masonic Society, which I do not accept and do not grant is a non theological society. Your argument is premised on that. And the whole opening 20 minutes demonstrated that you guys are theologically inclined. You just act like you're not. So it's a false equivalence. What is the Masonic Lodge is not like the Green Party because the Masonic Lodge requires theological beliefs even though you say you don't.

[Chase]

They just belief in a supreme being though, which is a compatible.

[Ryan]

It's a comp.

[Tristan]

Belief.

[Chase]

No, with Christianity because also has this.

[Jay Dyer]

Notice what he just did there. He said we only require belief in a supreme authority. When we already saw in the first 30 minutes that he qualified that to say, well, you can't be a Satanist and you gotta believe this, you gotta believe that. So there's all these other things as a sales pitch, when they say it's just this one thing you have to believe, then they turn around and qualify it with a giant paragraph of all the other things that you can't be and have to believe. It's inconsistent. That's the point. You don't see that argument?

[Chase]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, come on, dude, I don't. One dogma that's unqualified by giant paragraph of actually what it really means. It's not one dogma.

[Chase]

That's not a what? I'm sorry?

[Jay Dyer]

It's not one dogma. One dogma. It's not just one dogma.

[Chase]

Very few dogmas.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so moving the goalpost is what we call that.

[Ryan]

Yeah, so.

[Tristan]

So I think, I think that was a pretty good gotcha there. Right? Like. And then we're about to shift into. I think DJs about to shift it into something different.

[Ryan]

There's like our last word membership.

[Chase]

I'm sorry, go ahead, Ryan.

[Ryan]

Yeah, call a sales pitch. However you want to frame it. You can do that. It's just the truth. I said the simple version was. I said there's more to it than that and then we can get into it later. There's no attempt to hide or it's a simplification. For the matter of debate, it's moving the goalpost.

[Jay Dyer]

That's not simplification.

[Ryan]

Call it what you.

[Jay Dyer]

One's a fallacy and one's explaining.

[Ryan]

There's lots of beliefs and teachings within Masonry. There's few requirements or dogmas, one of which is this belief in a supreme being to whom all Tennessee might be worded differently. In other jurisdictions, we know what is

[Tristana]

and isn't a fallacy either, because we can't truly objectively know anything. He said earlier.

[Tristan]

Well, he did. He seemed to not care about fallacies. So I think you're right. Like, he doesn't care if it's a fallacy or not. Call it whatever you want. Well, calling it a fallacy is really important. If it is a fallacy, Tennessee, you

[Ryan]

have to be a. Of lawful age, which we require 18. Some jurisdictions it's 21. You can't be a female. He can't be an atheist. You have to be of sound mind. We say you can't be an old man in dotage, which is essentially, you know, you have to match your moral facts.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Can't be Joe Biden. So, yeah, there's some base level requirements. And then as we are interviewing people, we try to discover your moral character, so to speak. And, you know, that can be subjective, I would suppose. You know, we're not experts in that, but we. We do our best in trying to figure out who you are as the individual. For me, at least, I would say, you know, if you're a Satanist, don't meet the requirements, if you're a Communist, I would say that would also.

[Moderator]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

What is it up to you?

[Ryan]

It's up to the individual Lodge, and it's a unanimous vote.

[Jay Dyer]

So.

[Ryan]

Yeah, in some ways.

[Jay Dyer]

So one lot could accept the same as another one couldn't.

[Ryan]

It's theoretically possible. But I've been a Mason for 18 years now. I know thousands of Masons I've never met.

[Jay Dyer]

The point isn't that.

[Tristana]

It's.

[Tristan]

It's.

[Jay Dyer]

It's.

[Ryan]

Could a Lodge let someone in who shouldn't get in? Yes.

[Jay Dyer]

The question is, how do you determine what good moral character is? What's the standard? And Chase, That's a good question. So if this is a society based around ethics and values and value judgments, those are metaphysical ethical claims.

[Tristan]

I want to know what the good is.

[Jay Dyer]

How do we determine the good?

[Chase]

Well, I think that's up to. That's up to you with your relationship with God.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. But your other Masonic brothers can be Hindus who determine the good according to Hinduism, right?

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Chase]

There's a situation in which that's the case.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. So how do we know what the good is? It sounds relativistic.

[Chase]

I don't know that Freemasonry makes a claim as to which of those persuasions is correct?

[Tristan]

Then how are you going to make

[Jay Dyer]

good men better if you don't even know whether Hinduism is better than Protestantism or not?

[Ryan]

Because it doesn't make those claims in the context of like path to salvation. When it comes to our system. Like you asked, how do we make good men better? We do have moral and philosophical teachings.

[Jay Dyer]

Which are what? Based on what?

[Ryan]

Philosophy and morals that are brought in that are Archer Russell's. No, no, you tease them. Let me answer and I'll just tell you. That's easy. You can just quick cut me off

[Tristan]

and I'm said, Bertrand Russell's philosophy or ET's philosophy. Like a lot of you, what I say, you can't.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't hear.

[Tristana]

This is bizarre because like my dad was a Protestant minister and he hated freemasons because of this exact thing. Like it. Everything that they're claiming as a Protestant is like the Masonic stuff circumvents Scripture.

[Tristan]

Yeah, exactly.

[Tristana]

From the Protestant paradigm.

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

There's.

[Tristan]

There's two different. It divides you against yourself.

[Tristana]

Right.

[Tristan]

And this is really the idea of the public private divide that America has. Right. You can have your private religion. Just don't let it spill over into the public sphere. The whole idea. Yeah, that's what then that is a Masonic idea.

[Ryan]

Sell you. So we teach the four carnival virtues

[Tristana]

as people that are involved in politics as well. Because it's like, well, you know, politics. This is a game of optics. It's a game of presentation. It's a game of convincing people and of compromise. And that's separate from my spiritual life.

[Tristan]

Exactly.

[Tristana]

You get problems on both ends of that. Of that. That divide.

[Tristan]

Exactly.

[Tristana]

Yep.

[Ryan]

Prudence, temperance and justice.

[Jay Dyer]

Why are we supposed to accept those like who says who?

[Ryan]

This is what we teach.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but why are we supposed to think that that's right?

[Chase]

You don't really have to.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, do they make a claim Relativism subjective as what we've been making. Do they make a claim that that's

[Moderator]

right or is it just. That's part of the group and if you want to join it, so be it.

[Ryan]

Well, we teach that these. Yeah. That those are right. We touched that the, you know, the seven liberal arts and sciences are the way to make your 8. Way to make yourself a better man. The trivium.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm starting to doubt all of the Masonic conspiracies now because there's no way that this sect could have actually any

[Tristan]

meaningful revolution in history.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a joke. It's a joke. It's Just a joke.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Tristan]

I made Chase really mad with that joke because I was arguing that these guys are too dumb to actually have organized any real revolutions that were ever successful. This is the point where Chase gets. Chase gets really mad at me and he just starts, like. He's just seething, staring at me. And I thought after this he was gonna leave.

[Jay Dyer]

Rather get mad now. So I'm not angry.

[Chase]

I just don't have a response.

[Ryan]

No, that's. You ask for us to answer a question, we start to ask again.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you think that you have to be full. You mentioned philosophy. Do you have to be philosophically consistent in your argumentation?

[Ryan]

Sure.

[Chase]

You have to be. For what? To be a Mason in a debate. Yeah. Yeah, I think that that would be ideal. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. So can I make fallacious arguments against Masonry? Would you call it out?

[Chase]

We're calling out.

[Tristan]

Thank you.

[Jay Dyer]

So when you guys make bad arguments and I ask you what the standard of the good is, and you say it's just these virtues, and then you say that it's just these versus. Okay, it is those and more.

[Ryan]

It's part of it and more. Yeah, there's a lot to it.

[Jay Dyer]

And then you say that a Hindu

[Tristan]

can be in and he can have his system.

[Jay Dyer]

This other guy over here can be a Protestant and whatever. That's the point is that there is no standard of good by which you're

[Tristan]

making good men better.

[Jay Dyer]

It's arbitrary. And I can't figure out how am I going to be a philosophically better man.

[Tristan]

We're going to make good men better.

[Jay Dyer]

If there's no standard of what makes men good, if it's subjective and you allow satanic demonic people, like Hindus, they have a satanic religion. If they're allowed to come in and say that, well, my standard of good is to worship Shiva. I can be. Can I be a thuggie and be a Mason? Temple of Doom.

[Tristan]

They didn't know what Thuggies were. I made a Temple of Doom joke which is like the, you know, human sacrifice sect of. Of Hinduism, which, by the way, was. There was a real human sacrifice sect. And then they act like. In order to skirt the joke, they act like, I don't know, like. You never watched Temple of Doom.

[Ryan]

I don't know where that is.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a joke, dude.

[Tristana]

I don't know. A bunch of times. And I wouldn't have caught the reference either.

[Tristan]

You don't know the Thuggies, dude. Dude, I grew up watching. I've watched Tubal of Dune probably 500 times.

[Tristana]

Indiana Jones, that was my favorite Indiana Jones, but I still wouldn't have caught the reference.

[Tristan]

Well, that's just. That's just. That's. That's on.

[Tristana]

You read about the Hashashins, it's going to lead you to the thuggies. Right. Afghani history.

[Tristan]

Yeah. Like there's all kinds of monotheistic or. Well, I mean, again, I. Look, best argument here is they allow Hindus in. Okay. Hindus believe in just absolutely demonic stuff. Like, so you're to make good Hindus better with Christians to get. It's just so stupid.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Nobody's seen Temple of Durham.

[Chase]

It's incompatible with Christianity.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Okay.

[Tristan]

By the way, the other thing that's bad about this recording is there was like 10 times the audience was cracking up. And that's another reason why they got mad, because when I made the joke about there's no way these guys could organize a successful revolution, the audience laughed really hard. And that's what made. Made Chase really mad. But you can't hear any of the audience laughing on those.

[Moderator]

All right, this is. Let's pivot for a second and talk about oaths. This is an interesting topic because in Freemasonry you have to take oaths. I don't want to speak for you guys, but my understanding is that's the case. And I want to read a Bible verse from James 5:12 which says, above all, my brothers and sisters do not swear, not by heaven or earth or anything else. All you need to say is a simple yes or no, otherwise you will be condemned. Now, I'll just take it over to the Masons here. Either of you guys can pick this up. But how do you interpret that verse and also take odes in on your journey Ascent in Freemasonry.

[Jay Dyer]

Go ahead, Ryan.

[Ryan]

Yeah, so my interpretation doesn't come from Freemasonry. That's just what I was taught that person.

[Tristan]

By the way, what I. I'm gonna skip this because this is not even a contentious point. This is just kind of a Protestant, like, you know, Quaker, Baptist thing. Like, can you take oaths? And I'm like, yeah, of course. We don't think that all oaths are wrong. You take an oath when you get married. So I'm just gonna skip this part because there wasn't much there.

[Moderator]

It's a quick clarifying question is what is the principle by which an oath goes too far in the form of James 5:12?

[Chase]

It's like if you were to say, I swear to God, I'll be there tomorrow on time. That's a good example.

[Moderator]

But do you have like a prince. So what is the, like, sorting principle for the two things? You know, where it's good or bad? Is there a line the sand or is it just kind of a.

[Chase]

Well, I think, yeah, it's good.

[Jay Dyer]

The blood oaths that are required on his person.

[Tristan]

What I argue is that oaths are not the issue. It's rather the blood oaths that Masonry requires here.

[Chase]

All you have to do is say yes or no.

[Jay Dyer]

You actually agree with all that? I don't take any issue with any of that. I would say that, you know, obviously we take oaths. If we go to court, you lay your hand on the Bible, you take an oath. They don't say a problem with that? I don't think we've ever had a problem with that. We take an oath in marriage, as they pointed out. But I would say that the blood oaths that are required for Masonry might be problematic.

[Chase]

By blood oath, like the blood spill roads mean.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm sorry you didn't like what your oaths mean.

[Chase]

Well, I hear blood oath, I think of. And maybe I'm just totally wrong about this. So please clarify. I think of like somebody actually cutting their hand open and there's blood involved in the oath.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, don't you take an oath to have your throats lit should, blah, blah, blah happen?

[Ryan]

So there's penalties in these obligations and

[Tristan]

then they don't want to talk about this. This is funny.

[Ryan]

We won't discuss the specifics of those obligations.

[Tristan]

Ah, interesting. Why doesn't he want to discuss the specifics of the blood oath?

[Ryan]

Yeah, you can laugh at that. You know, you can, you can go find them online if you want.

[Jay Dyer]

You know, if you can find them online.

[Ryan]

And I, and I would. Well, I'll, I'll explain. I will simply say that if you believe those are literal oaths, maybe, yeah, maybe that. Is that your claim?

[Jay Dyer]

Maybe you interpret it symbolically. That's why I said depending upon how one interprets those oaths. Now, I know that there have been cases like the William Morgan affair, where it was not interpreted as purely symbolic. Maybe you guys nowadays don't hold to that. So I don't want to be unfair to you. I would steal man your position. But I mean, like, you know, in your, in your rights, for example, and you can correct me if this is wrong. In the Royal Arch degree, you reveal

[Tristan]

that the true name of God is

[Jay Dyer]

Jabulon, Yahweh, BAAL and on. So that's in your liturgies. That's your rights and your rituals. That's not your theologians or your speculators here. I don't see how that any Christian would literally think that the name of God is Jabalon and then say that this is not a theological society. And I can interpret this however I want. It just doesn't make any sense.

[Chase]

I would argue that Freemasonry never makes a claim as to what the real name, true name of God is.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, is that part of the Royal Arch degree?

[Chase]

I don't believe so.

[Jay Dyer]

On the York Rite, capitular side doesn't have the name Jabulan.

[Chase]

I do not believe that Freemasonry claims to define the name of God explicitly. Correct.

[Tristan]

So notice that this was part of the Royal Arch degree until it was removed by English grand lodge chapters in 1989. So this is not true according to them. So say they may not have known this. Right. But it was part of the ritual.

[Jay Dyer]

So that you're saying that that is not part of the Royal Arts degree in the York rights, capitular side.

[Chase]

It's been a long time since I've seen that degree. But yes, that is what I'm saying.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, so everybody note this, because he's making a claim that I think he's. I don't have the whole liturgy in front of me of their rights, but I don't think that that's. That that's true. But when you go in the lodge and I see, for example, that there's the floor and that there's the Jake and Boaz and all this temple symbolism. How is all of this Old Testament temple stuff not religious?

[Ryan]

What's, what's. What's your definition of religious?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, you told me and you said that it's not a religion, it's a philosophy. Yet when I walk into a lodge, it's a celestial vision into the. The heavens and the stars. And there's Jake and Boaz, which is out of the Old Testament.

[Tristan]

It's the temple.

[Jay Dyer]

We just, by the way, toured the.

[Chase]

I see what you're saying, Jay. There are certainly elements of Freemasonry that are derived from religion, specifically King Solomon sample, Jacob, Boaz, all that stuff.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, but it's not a religion, it's a philosophy.

[Chase]

Correct.

[Ryan]

These are.

[Tristan]

Did the stream cut out?

[Jay Dyer]

For a second.

[Tristan]

Is it back? It looks like maybe it's back.

[Ryan]

There's symbols. The entire name Freemasons comes from stonemason guilds. We use the tools of Masons. We use the story of the building of King Solomon's Temple to teach certain moral and philosophical this is where they

[Tristan]

also really begin to falter because I start pointing out all the religious theological symbology everywhere in Masonry. As they say, it's nothing to do

[Jay Dyer]

with the religion principles.

[Ryan]

You know, just because we have a story out of the Old Testament or the pillars that were outside of.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, just a story. Or is every element of the lodge in some ways symbolic of metaphysical realities like the tile floor and the dualities in nature and Jake and Boaz, the two pillars from the temple, Is it not, for example, based on Kabbalah, has

[Ryan]

elements of Kabbalah and some, some parts of Masonry.

[Jay Dyer]

So again, the ambiguity in the term it's just a philosophy, not a religion, is ambiguous precisely because you can, you can elastically remove how far you want to make religion and theology. When again, I think this whole discussion has shown that there's all kinds of theological positions and principles replete throughout, not

[Chase]

just the certain theological positions and principles are brought forth, but for the sake of contemplation, not so much as for the sake of making a claim as to their. Yeah, we don't.

[Ryan]

I'm not a kabbalist just because there's elements.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but the point is not. Are you a kabbalist? The point is that it's not just a philosophy, it's replete with theological meaning.

[Ryan]

Do you think that religions contain philosophy?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but that's not the question. The question is, is Freemasonry just a philosophy?

[Ryan]

If they do contain philosophy, we can't pull this.

[Jay Dyer]

That's a fallacy because it's a parts hole fallacy. I'm arguing against your position that you said it's just a philosophy. I didn't claim that there's no overlap between religion and philosophy. You said it's just a philosophy.

[Ryan]

Yeah, and I said that we pull those philosophies from different religions.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's.

[Ryan]

But then it's not just a philosophy

[Jay Dyer]

also a religious group?

[Ryan]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

How is it not.

[Chase]

I don't understand how it is religious just because certain elements of Freemasonry are your literature.

[Jay Dyer]

Freemasonry has rituals include the name of God in secret tetragrammaton. It's obviously religious. What are you talking about? And then you're casting it as it's not religious. It's just a, a bunch of bros and we're whatever, like. No, you're actually doing religious based rituals.

[Chase]

I think that you can have, you can have ceremonies, rituals, initiations, whatever you want to call them that have elements derived from religions without making any explicit, explicit religious claims.

[Jay Dyer]

But you Already made a bunch of explicit religious claims in the first hour,

[Chase]

just like this is.

[Tristan]

I hope everybody sees this right now they're going back to the whole thing that it took an hour to establish. Right.

[Chase]

God exists.

[Tristan]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Then you qualified it to say it's not just God exists. Actually, in fact, that was the point.

[Chase]

I'm not following.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, yeah, you are. You just don't want to. I have a question here.

[Moderator]

So it's the temple part aside. If I'm not sure exactly what you're referencing about the job of lawn thing, if there's an explicit claim on God itself, which is. It seems like that's what's Jay insinuating. That does seem like that would be in violation of some pretty core Christian principles.

[Tristana]

What.

[Moderator]

What is the. Actually, can you just flesh out what

[Jay Dyer]

that is and have them all right, so I'm trying to find their actual older. Did you know this reference?

[Ryan]

What is Java? I'm not familiar.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, yeah, I'm not familiar with that either.

[Tristan]

This is in every Masonic book, by the way. This like, I mean, maybe they don't know what it is, but it's also very convenient it for them to not know what it is when it's pretty well known.

[Jay Dyer]

So it's the older Royal Arch Masonry rituals which include the term Jabulon, which is supposedly the lost sacred name of God. And by the way, it's. It's not just some Internet site. I mean, it's also. I mean the name of God is a huge issue that Albert Mackey as an example, not an authority as an example, says that finding out who the

[Tristan]

name of God is and what the

[Jay Dyer]

name of God is, he says is very important to Masons because it must be determined through a kabbalistic Zohar based interpretation.

[Tristan]

Oh, I thought it wasn't religious. The whole religion is based, the whole philosophy of Masonry is based around the name of God, the Tetragrammaton, and interpreting it in a kabbalistic Zohar sense.

[Jay Dyer]

And he says if you want to know where to look at this, he says look to the Talmud and the Zohar. So again, the Tetragrammaton is according to him, the male and female principles of nature, the generative and prolific energies of creation. So this is all metaphysical theological speculation. And then they're saying that no, it's just a philosophy, it's just these symbols and you can maybe craft it into whatever you want. Where do you get the idea that you can take all the symbols of Solomon's Temple and craft them into anything? That you want. To me, that's preposterous.

[Ryan]

I don't think we're crafting them into anything that we want. We're very specific on what those symbols mean.

[Jay Dyer]

I thought you said that I can.

[Tristan]

If I'm a Hindu.

[Chase]

Let me just, let me provide some.

[Jay Dyer]

If I'm a Hindu and I'm.

[Chase]

Let me make my context, you know,

[Tristan]

but so remember, they said you could be Hindu and, and it can mean what you want to you as a Hindu, but they don't want to go there.

[Chase]

If you look at Masonry throughout history, there was op. Operative Masonry, and then it became speculative. I think that the reason King Solomon's Temple is, is such like a landmark, for lack of a better term in Freemasonry, is because it's like one of the most famous historical examples of architecture and the principles of Masonry being applied from an operative standpoint. And so I think when the craft was crafted, it was used as like a setting and a frame of reference and a keystone to develop the symbolic philosophy of the fraternity.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but you keep saying philosophy to make it not religious and theological. When all of this is religious, theological, and then you're removing the context and saying, well, they're just really personal symbols. For example, all Masonry says that it is the job of Masonry, as far as I'm aware, to quote, rebuild the Temple of Solomon. And you guys debate what's not true.

[Ryan]

I've never heard that.

[Jay Dyer]

Never heard that before.

[Chase]

Correct.

[Ryan]

It is the job. Say it again.

[Tristan]

Now. Notice they immediately jumped on this to not let me finish what I was going to say.

[Tristana]

Yes.

[Tristan]

I was about to say, whether you interpret that symbolically or literally rebuilding the Third Temple, it is the goal and

[Jay Dyer]

the job of Masonry to rebuild the Temple of Solomon.

[Chase]

I disagree with that.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so we just went to the giant Masonic monument in D.C. i put this up and you can find this very easily. And by the way, most of these Masonic authors that I have here all say that the job of the Mason is to rebuild the Temple of Solomon.

[Ryan]

You got that quote, this? Yeah.

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

So when we went to the Alexandria Monument, we got a, we got a walk through from the historian at the Alexandria Monument. And Jamie, you were there. Did the guy not say that is the job of the Mason to rebuild the Temple of Solomon? Thank you. Because that is what he said. Now you could disagree with that. Perhaps that's something that individual Masons say and it's not actually a, a normative teaching.

[Ryan]

So. So you, you think it is a goal or job of Masonry to physically rebuild No, I didn't say that. Thought. That's what I'm asking.

[Jay Dyer]

No, you believe that that is unknown in its term. You may believe that that is unknown in terms of what it signifies, but that spiritually and morally, it's crafting the temple of the individual Mason to be a better person. That's. That was what it was explained to us at the Temple. Now you disagree with that.

[Ryan]

I've never heard that framed as rebuilding the Temple now.

[Tristan]

Yeah, totally not true. You find this all throughout Masonic literature all over the place. So this really kind of pissed me off when they acted like they've never heard this.

[Ryan]

The act of improving yourself. We do take the symbolism of temple building physical.

[Tristan]

Thank you. This was the point I make. Notice he didn't let me finish to make it seem like I was saying that they're all trying to build the temple in Israel, which is not what I was.

[Ryan]

Physical Freemasonry, me. And then we use those.

[Tristan]

He just admitted the very thing that I was saying. That's why I said that's what I was saying, dude. Right here, now.

[Ryan]

The act of improving yourself. We do take the symbolism of temple building physical. Physical Freemasonry. And then we use those same working tools on building ourselves. We're not building physical temples anymore. We're building ourselves.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I know.

[Ryan]

We're not rebuilding.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so that's when we're things. So obviously, I'm not saying that you think you're going to go really literally rebuild the Temple of Solomon. You're saying that.

[Ryan]

Well, you kind of made that claim in some. Not tonight, but in previous article.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I argue that maybe that is what you got.

[Ryan]

You basically, like, acted like they were some Zionist organization that wants to rebuild the Third Temple. That was your claim that you've made in previous steps. I mean, you're alluding to it now,

[Jay Dyer]

but Freemasonry is bound up with Judaism. You don't. You don't think so.

[Ryan]

It has Judaism in it. Bound up with Judaism. And he's just going to fill the

[Chase]

law but not abolish it.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, no, Christianity is not bound up with Judaism. That's false.

[Ryan]

I didn't. We didn't make that claim. You're saying.

[Jay Dyer]

But because Christianity, it's not.

[Ryan]

I'm saying that just because something contains Judaism does not make it Judaism.

[Jay Dyer]

What I'm saying is then you guys, through people like Mackie, say, go read the Zohar and the Talmud, and that's where you're going to get the secrets of who God is. That's Rabbetic theology that is not ancient.

[Chase]

I would certainly disagree with Mackie in that.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Chase]

In that writing, do you agree with.

[Jay Dyer]

Disagree with Albert pike too when he says similar things?

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Chase]

Okay, I do.

[Jay Dyer]

You disagree with Harvard scholars like William Green who write books about Masonry's ethos being Jewish Kabbalah law.

[Chase]

Yes, I do.

[Jay Dyer]

So notice that it really is seemingly a thing that you can make it into whatever you want it to be. Because when we bring up the actual Judaic ethos of it and you don't find the emphasis on Christianity except perhaps in later versions of the York.

[Tristan]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

Masonry downplays the deity of Christ and it downplays the specifics of Christianity which you saw Chase do when he asked me if I was a dogmatist and I only believe the orthodoxy was true. They downplayed the specifics and the absolutes, as Albert pike says, because their whole society is based around syncretism and the idea that all the religions are just mass of one ultimate God. But you can also be a Christian. But that's again like joining together with ecumenists or Freemasons. Those positions are antithetical to the absolutes of Christianity. So when Chase says he believes in Jesus, what Jesus? The historical Jesus that the church teaches or the Jesus that you've decided in the Protestant Bible?

[Chase]

The real one, the Son of God, the Messiah.

[Jay Dyer]

Is he the one that the Council of Nicaea defines?

[Chase]

He's the one that died on the cross and rose again.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but what historical body actually preserved those teachings and put together that Bible?

[Chase]

Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. The.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, and they put the Bible together.

[Chase]

No, I understand that. They didn't put the whole Bible together.

[Jay Dyer]

Who did?

[Chase]

Well, it was Constantine.

[Tristana]

Right?

[Tristan]

No, they really thought Constantine put the Bible together. This part was funny.

[Chase]

Nicene Council.

[Jay Dyer]

No, he didn't put the Bible together.

[Chase]

I'm sorry.

[Jay Dyer]

No, he did not.

[Tristana]

The depth of knowledge that most Protestants have too.

[Tristan]

They don't know anything at all.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Tristana]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't pike talk about Jesus just being Adam and Catamon?

[Tristan]

He could. I mean, the chapter on the church fathers in the Trinity. He just argues that the Trinity is actually Neoplatonism. And he.

[Tristana]

It's. It's like the reference. Going back to reference again. Like the reference of Jesus is just to Adam.

[Tristan]

Catamon, probably. Because if. If Pike's going to argue that the Trinity is not the Christian Trinity and that it's Neoplatonic emanations. That's what he says. And he says The Holy Spirit's not a person, it's just the world soul. Then that would deny the deed of Christ. So yes.

[Tristana]

You know what it's called?

[Tristan]

What's what?

[Tristana]

Reference Mission. Reference Mission.

[Tristan]

What Is that a joke?

[Tristana]

Yeah, it's a total joke. Take it easy, man.

[Tristan]

I'm sorry. I'm doing you like Chase did to me when I made the joke and he's like, I don't have a response. He didn't want to laugh at my joke.

[Jay Dyer]

The Bible together.

[Tristana]

Just a suggestion.

[Chase]

Yeah, beat it up.

[Tristan]

It is sped up.

[Tristana]

Oh.

[Tristan]

I mean I could try faster, but it might sound like chipmunks.

[Tristana]

Oh man. Like. So they were like.

[Chase]

Did he not commission?

[Tristan]

Well, the. The other thing too is like this got really heated and I think they evened out the vocal stuff and they also. There's no crowd at all. Like the crowd was making noises and laughing. This. So this is, is. This is like evened out audio wise.

[Chase]

I think everybody to come together and identify what's canon, what isn't.

[Ryan]

No. Okay, forgive me.

[Chase]

Tell me.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean you guys believe the Bible, right? Like what kind of Christianity is it that the Bible teaches? That is your definition of what Christianity is that Masonry is compatible with?

[Ryan]

Well, Masonry is compatible with. Again, Masonry is not making dogmatic claims about Christianity.

[Jay Dyer]

But it is. We've seen that in this debate.

[Chase]

What do you mean?

[Jay Dyer]

What do I mean?

[Chase]

Yeah. When does Masonry make dogmatic claims about Jesus Christ or Christianity?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, the belief that you can be a member of the society just by believing in a generic theism is antithetical to Jesus in John 14:6. That I'm the way, the truth and the life.

[Ryan]

So you say generic theism. What do you mean yours?

[Jay Dyer]

Platonic teaching that there's just a supreme being.

[Ryan]

Okay, that's not.

[Jay Dyer]

How do we identify what the supreme being is?

[Chase]

That's really not up to me. It's a point where he doesn't involve itself.

[Ryan]

Does that it'll leave all up to the individual.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. That's the point. That that's antithetical to the way that Christian defines who God is.

[Tristan]

That's the point.

[Chase]

Masonry makes no claim specifically.

[Jay Dyer]

That is the point.

[Ryan]

It would be antithetical if Masonry said that all religions are equal. They all teach the same thing. That my belief in Christianity that you know, I worship the same God of the Muslim. That would be a generic theism.

[Jay Dyer]

That would you believe not to worship the same God.

[Tristan]

They do believe they worship the same God as Muslims.

[Jay Dyer]

As a Muslim.

[Ryan]

I don't.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you do.

[Ryan]

No, I Don't.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, you Muslim. Your society, your Mason society accepts Muslims as monotheists and part of your society city. So you believe that you could be a Christian and your theology doesn't play into the Masonic order and its teachings and that's why it's double minded and double fake. That's the point.

[Ryan]

I think it's just a Grossman's understanding.

[Jay Dyer]

Does Masonry teach that Muslims worship the same God?

[Chase]

Masonry doesn't make a claim.

[Ryan]

It doesn't make a claim to that. It just says that Muslims are.

[Jay Dyer]

If it allows Muslims and it's, it's acquiescing to that.

[Chase]

That's not necessarily

[Jay Dyer]

Supreme Being. Is it the same Supreme Being?

[Chase]

Yeah, I understand.

[Ryan]

No, we don't, we don't make the claim that you have that it is all the same Supreme Being being.

[Chase]

Correct?

[Ryan]

No. Correct.

[Chase]

We do not make the claim that, that everybody, every, every religion Supreme Being is the true. Okay, whichever one is a browse line.

[Jay Dyer]

Does a Muslim worship the things essentially.

[Chase]

I do not believe that.

[Ryan]

I'm not sure.

[Chase]

I'm not asking you.

[Jay Dyer]

Does Ms. Masonry say and allow for Muslims to become members?

[Chase]

Yeah, but allowing. Allowing is different from making a claim as to the authenticity.

[Tristan]

Who's playing word games now? Come on.

[Jay Dyer]

Or the.

[Chase]

The truth.

[Jay Dyer]

They're allowing it. It would be on the basis of

[Chase]

the fact that they know that's evolves. The only reason that Freemasonry requires a belief in a Supreme Being is so that when you take oaths there's reason to believe that you feel that you're held accountable to your Supreme Being. So we're not going to try to convince a Muslim to swear an oath to a God that he doesn't believe in because we understand that he won't feel held accountable to the. To keep the oath. So the idea is, look, if you believe, if you believe in God and Jesus Christ and you're a Christian and you take an oath on a Bible instead of whatever your holy book is and that's because you believe that you'll be held accountable for the oath that you swear to your own God. If it's an accountability, I believe I am.

[Jay Dyer]

If I believe that I am God and I am the Supreme Being, can I become amazed?

[Chase]

Jason, I've never even been presented with that question.

[Jay Dyer]

Doesn't matter. It's a theoretical question that's proving a point about an argument. I'm not actually saying that if somebody

[Ryan]

believes that they are God, he would not get in.

[Chase]

There's no way that we get in.

[Jay Dyer]

What they wouldn't be accepted.

[Tristan]

They would not.

[Tristana]

No.

[Chase]

I mean, I don't know if it's technically against the rules, but there would never be an instance in which that

[Ryan]

person would be admitted into a lot Supreme Being. To him all men are accountable. I don't know. Are you accountable to yourself?

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

Because you are the Supreme Being. I don't know.

[Chase]

And you can't be insane.

[Ryan]

Yeah. Beyond that, don't let crazy people in or try.

[Jay Dyer]

You know, I'm illustrating a point that every time you appeal to Supreme Being, it is sufficiently vague and generic, hence generic theism, to allow for anything it appears. But then as we nail it down, it gets hyper specified and qualified about all of the things that don't count and all the things that do count. Which demonstrates the point that you have a theology and a dogma and you're not consistent with the other claims that you've made. That's the point. So how is it compatible with Christianity to be in a lodge together with totally different demonic positions?

[Chase]

Like because it's a secular organization, it's not a religious.

[Jay Dyer]

How is it secular when you've adopted all these religious symbols and imagery?

[Chase]

Just because you're presenting people with religious ideas and different ancient mysteries or whatever doesn't mean that you're actually.

[Tristan]

Again, you see how like they just keep going back and forth to yeah, fine, we have all these religious positions that you have to affirm, but it's not religious. It's like the whole thing is just,

[Chase]

just double mind advocates and the belief in them.

[Jay Dyer]

Now you're, now you're dishonest because you said it's secular at the same time as saying that there are theological requirements

[Chase]

to get in the University of California and you engage in religious studies, it's still a secular program even though you're

[Jay Dyer]

not religious to believe in God, quote unquote. To get into the program you require belief in God and then you have a generic God. It doesn't. That's a contradiction. How is it not theological?

[Chase]

Because the only reason that Masonry requires a belief in God is, is for the sake of knowing that we can trust the oaths that the people take because they feel held accountable to higher power.

[Jay Dyer]

Then why does it have. Why can't I be accountable to myself as God?

[Ryan]

I would also argue that beyond what Chase said, and I'm disagreeing with that, but just in addition to that, they

[Tristan]

think that I'm being silly and just saying, coming up with crazy. I'm illustrating a point that every time I come up with some fringe religious position, whether it's theistic Satanism or Gnosticism or I'm my own God. I'm illustrating to them that they have all of these qualifications that are beyond just one dogma. It's a very simple point, and I don't know why they can't see this. I think eventually they do, because this guy's about to make a big trip up here soon.

[Ryan]

The teachings, the principles, not a theology. Just. I don't know how else to say it. Did you. Do you believe that there are teachings and doctrines that aren't. Are not theology?

[Jay Dyer]

Like, are you serious right now?

[Ryan]

Are you serious? Yeah, go for it. Go for it.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, so you made a bunch of theological claims.

[Ryan]

Okay, what, what, what are the bunch of theological claims that we.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't be in the Society.

[Ryan]

We believe this, this, this about God requirements.

[Jay Dyer]

You can't be in the Society if you believe this, this about the deity in question. Those are theological claims and assertions. Okay, so you have a vast theology. Do you not understand this? This is a very simple.

[Tristana]

Are you serious?

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Chase]

No, I don't.

[Ryan]

Not when you put the word vast in.

[Jay Dyer]

Did you not give me a whole bunch of people that wouldn't count, such as a Satanist and such as myself believe I'm God or something like that? You said those theologies don't count.

[Tristana]

Count.

[Chase]

I would say that those people wouldn't get into a lodge.

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. So you have theological requirements.

[Moderator]

Is the point that it's a. Like a vote by the people and they would always vote that out or that there's a specific.

[Tristan]

Dude, I feel like I'm talking to children or Muslims. It's. Look at me holding my hands in my face. It's like, how do you not get this point? Right? It's like, not. This is not a difficult point.

[Tristana]

You look like when you were talking to Ibarra.

[Tristan]

I actually think that they're not getting the point on purpose here because this would undo the whole thing.

[Chase]

They're going to be accepted into a regular alternative.

[Ryan]

It's, it's, it's, it's by.

[Tristan]

Go ahead, Tristan.

[Tristana]

I was gonna say what you just said. Like, they can't. They can't grasp the point because if they did, it's over. Right. So they have to pretend they don't get the point or convince themselves that they don't get a point so, you know, to keep the thing going as long as they can. And then that probably increases their internal tension, which then led to them blowing up on you a little bit later.

[Ryan]

I Guess it's nature, an exclusive organization.

[Jay Dyer]

I actually think.

[Tristan]

Dj, I'm not lying because there was a lot of people that were there. This was probably we at least over 100 people. And that's not a lot. But I mean, it was really heated. And this, it doesn't give the impression that it was that heated from this because I think they evened out the voices and they, they've clipped some of the points too, where we got really loud.

[Ryan]

And whether it's a written rule or not, I'm not going to let a guy in that thinks he's God.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you. So that proves my point that you have theological dogmatic positions when you say that there's only one dogma. That's not actually the case. There are all these theological necessities that you have that exclude all of these other types of positions. That's the point. So it's not just a fraternity. It's not like a graduate program or like aa. That's the point.

[Chase]

Well, I, I see what you're trying to say. I would just argue that. I think there's a difference and we should, I think we should define this difference between official written requirements of what it means to be a part of an organization and then the cold.

[Tristan]

Just redefine, remove the goalpost again.

[Chase]

Sure. That is created as a conglomeration or a combination of the people who are actually a part of that organization.

[Jay Dyer]

What does that do with what is written?

[Tristan]

Yeah, I think he removed the. The laughter. Right. And DJ, unless he personally added me to this, he didn't even link me. So, yeah, that's kind of weak.

[Chase]

So what I'm trying to say is. What I'm trying to say is Masonry that may not officially make a claim regarding the theological truth of, of Satanism, but because of the composition of the organization, it's impossible that a Satanist would ever get in.

[Jay Dyer]

Because then you're making a theological claim about who is and isn't allowed.

[Chase]

Well, certainly whenever you vote on whether or not you can admit somebody into a lodge, you're making a decision based off whatever arbitrary sentiments or feelings that you have as an individual member.

[Jay Dyer]

You have a dogma that is specific type of theology.

[Chase]

It doesn't even have to necessarily be based on the dogma of freemasonry. I could just blackball somebody because I don't like them.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, that's an even better argument for my case because now you're admitting that it's not just the theology, it's also the practical concerns that allow you to, to Reject people.

[Ryan]

So.

[Chase]

Yeah, but that's not. I'm not making the decision to blackball somebody based off of the official position of the fraternity. I'm making the position of the decision to blackball somebody based off of just personal preference.

[Jay Dyer]

But it's still a theological personal preference. So that just argues in favor of what I'm arguing.

[Chase]

Not even necessarily. I could totally agree with somebody's theology, but if I dislike them, I can just blackball them. If somebody's a Satanist, like, then I would just say Satan.

[Jay Dyer]

Then it would just be irrelevant to the question of whether Freemasonry has theological requirements for membership.

[Chase]

The only theological requirement for membership is that you believe in a Supreme Being.

[Jay Dyer]

That is not true, which we have seen in the first hour. When you explicate that you can't be a Satanist, you can't believe you're your own God and a host of other things that would exclude you.

[Chase]

All we said was that you would never get in.

[Tristana]

In.

[Chase]

I mean, you could technically be a Satanist and a congressman. They probably half of them are, but nobody would actually vote for you. How to sit outwardly spoken Satanist to be a congressman.

[Tristan]

Are you guys just like.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't understand. Like, you have theological requirements that exclude you thus. You have dogmatic things that you hold to. This is a very simple.

[Chase]

Like the. The explicit requirement is a belief in a Supreme Being. The practical requirements are complicated, and it depends on whichever lodge you're trying to join. I mean, if the guys in the lodge don't like you, you're not going to get in. It's irrelevant. No, I don't. I don't. I don't think it's irrelevant. What's the.

[Jay Dyer]

You said a specific theological requirement of a Supreme Being. And then I ask you, who is that? What is. What's the things that exclude me from that? And you list all of these things.

[Chase]

Yeah, right. He listed all those based off of the preference of any Lodge. There's no way in the culture of Freemasonry that a Satanist would get accepted in any Lodge, regardless of whether or not they technically would be allowed. Just as there's no way that a Satanist would be voted into Congress, regardless of the fact that they're technically allowed to be a Satanist in Congress.

[Jay Dyer]

You changed what the requirement was to your personal statements and ideas about what. Whether you want a Mason or whether you want to Satanist in Lodge when the question was, do you have requirements about a type of Supreme Court being? And you do.

[Chase]

We don't we don't specifically have requirements.

[Jay Dyer]

You do because you said a. You said the theology of a Satanist is incompatible with the theology of Masonry.

[Chase]

That's certainly my personal belief, but notice

[Tristan]

he keeps shifting back and forth being sus between the Masonic position's requirements and his own personal requirements. That wasn't the. The debate is whether Freemasonry allows and should allow on the basis of what they say about Supreme Being, a Satanist, and that it's inconsistent and he keeps going to. Well, I wouldn't want it totally irrelevant to the debate.

[Chase]

Dude, I didn't say the theology of Freemasonry. I said the principles and values of Freemasonry, not the theology.

[Jay Dyer]

So there's nothing antithetical between a Satanist and Freeman and a Freemason theologically.

[Chase]

I believe that there is something antithetical between a Satanist and a Freemason philosophically, and that is my personal belief, which I believe.

[Jay Dyer]

But I was using a theistic Satanist.

[Ryan]

Oh, I'm still unaware of these Satanists that think that he is the Supreme Being.

[Jay Dyer]

Theistic Satanists believe that. Okay, it doesn't matter whether. Even if there weren't any, I could theoretically propose that as a thing.

[Ryan]

I mean, you come up with every hypothetical you want, but.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that's why they're useful for debates. So it doesn't matter whether they exist or how you do. Debates, bro. So again, the point, as I hope you guys see, is that when we say exactly what they mean by the Supreme Being, they have all these qualifications and these criteria and then Chase shifts it to say, that's my personal ethical reason why I don't want a Satanist in here shifting away from what the actual question is, which is does Masonry have a dogma? They admitted, yes, it's just a Supreme Being, but then we find out in practice and in reality it's not just a Supreme Being because we don't even know what that is. We're not. I mean, again, it's like over and

[Chase]

over and over without having a dogma, or specifically having the dogma of a belief in a Supreme Being is in any way, shape or form incompatible with Christianity because that's one of the dogmas of Christianity too, that you must believe in a Supreme Being.

[Jay Dyer]

It's called a word concept fallacy. It's called the quantifier shift fallacy. Let me give you an example really quick. I have one mother, you have one mother, you have one mother, therefore we all have the same mother. That's a fallacy because Just because they're all having one as their referent, it doesn't mean they're the same. So likewise, because all the religions believe in a God, it doesn't mean it's the same God.

[Ryan]

Yeah, you don't claim that it is.

[Chase]

Right, but Freemasonry.

[Jay Dyer]

And I think.

[Chase]

Well, I see what you're saying and I understand your point, you're right. But Freemasonry does not make a claim as to which Supreme Being is the real true Supreme Being. Then it's meant to be ambiguous so that all, all face could.

[Tristan]

Thank you.

[Jay Dyer]

It's meant to be ambiguous.

[Tristan]

Thank you. That was the point for freaking hour and a half. It was meant to be ambiguous so all the faiths conjoined. But remember a minute ago, it's not ambiguous. We don't allow certain bad people. People, this is the whole point. They don't understand. They keep admitting my point about it being a contradiction.

[Jay Dyer]

And you turn around and you specify who gets in and who doesn't get in based on the theology. That's the whole argument.

[Chase]

No, I didn't in fact denied the term theology and what I explicitly stated how was that? There's no way that a Satanist would get into a lodge because in any given lodge that person would def. Certainly be blackballed by one of the members.

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, do you not understand the argument? I'm not asking you. Do Masons like Satan is. The question is, is. The point is that the argument demonstrates that Supreme Being is sufficiently vague as to not mean anything. And you're arbitrary when you start to say who doesn't get in because those are theological assertions. That's the argument.

[Chase]

Percent agree with you.

[Tristan]

On, on that is it took an hour and a half again to come back to this same obvious argument and he every time shifts it to saying we, we don't like Satanists. Dude, that's not. I don't. It's not the question. The question is it's a test case that's used like possible worlds arguments. They're not saying the possible worlds are real multiverses. They're examples to illustrate the logical inconsistency in saying that Freemasonry has a dogma that you have to believe in a supreme being. Okay, what if the supreme being is Satan? Oh, that doesn't count. Why? Because of this, this, this, this, this and all the other qualifications are theological positions? Well, no, but it's because we don't like you personally. How could it be I don't like you personally when the question is what's the theological contradiction between that being my personal higher Supreme Being? So they keep shifting it over to we don't. We wouldn't let a Satanist in. Not asking you. Would you let a Satanist in? I'm asking on what basis is a Satanist not allowed in if the Supreme Being is himself or Satan.

[Tristana]

Satan.

[Tristan]

And they.

[Jay Dyer]

They just can't compute that what you just said.

[Chase]

I just don't understand the point. Like I don't see.

[Jay Dyer]

Then you don't have one dogma and there's no such thing as generic theism. That's the point.

[Chase]

We don't have a dogma. We don't have one dogma. Is that what you're saying?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Chase]

Then how is that incompatible with Christianity if there's no dogma to be conflict with Christianity?

[Jay Dyer]

The point is that you claim to not have a dogma, but you actually have a whole bunch. That's.

[Chase]

So what you're saying we have a dogma now?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. That's the. It's a contradiction. Yeah.

[Chase]

And the dogma is that we require the belief in a Supreme Being Being.

[Tristan]

And that is.

[Chase]

Right. More than Christianity requires a belief in a Supreme Being too. And it's totally compatible with Freemasonry. For you to believe that. That's a pretty.

[Tristan]

Harry went back to the quantifier shift fallacy. Because there's a Supreme Being, then it's a Supreme Being.

[Jay Dyer]

What's the problem?

[Chase]

God of Jesus Christ?

[Jay Dyer]

Christianity. Supreme Being is the triune God.

[Chase]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

It is not generic theism that allows a Muslim and a Hindu desire to stand.

[Chase]

But nowhere in Freemasonry does it say that the triune God is not the Supreme Being.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, it is. Because you just said that you can be a member of the lodge if you believe in all these crazy heretical groups because you recognize a Supreme Being.

[Chase]

No, no, you don't want. Supreme Being is legitimate. You recognize that that person believes in that Supreme Being. Therefore you can believe that if they take an oath upon the Supreme Being that they believe in that they will be held accountable. They will believe that they will be held accountable to that oath regardless of whether or not they actually will be held accountable. For example, if I'm a Muslim and I want to take my oath on a Quran instead of a Bible because I'm a Muslim. Right. Freemasonry doesn't claim whether all is God or Yahweh is God or whether Jesus Christ is God. But if you're a Muslim, we want you to take an oath on.

[Tristan]

But it does by claiming that. That the higher power of Masonry is a generic theism. That's the claim. That is a denial of Christianity's exclusivity. Exclusivity claims. That's the point. That's my argument. That they can't get book that you

[Chase]

believe in because we believe that you believe you'll be held. You believe it.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm gonna say you're trying to remove it from.

[Tristan]

What's that?

[Jay Dyer]

But did you just say Freemasonry does not believe that Jesus is the son of God?

[Chase]

No, I said it doesn't make a claim. Either way. It doesn't make a claim. All it claims is that you must believe in a Supreme Court being.

[Jay Dyer]

And I'm arguing that the Supreme Being itself. This line of argument that you guys have is a denial of Jesus and the Trinity. That's my argument. No, it is right.

[Chase]

Just like you said that. Just like you said that the supreme, the blue, even higher power does what

[Jay Dyer]

you say about the Supreme Being and when you flesh it out contradicts the Christian theology of Jesus is.

[Chase]

There is no contradiction.

[Ryan]

But I believe that Jesus you.

[Jay Dyer]

The fact that you make it subjective doesn't remove my arguments. For us that has nothing to do with what we're arguing.

[Chase]

I think it's. Yeah, because Masonry than you guys think the entire argument. Masonry objectively does not deny Christ. It just objectively doesn't. When you allow Alcoholics Anonymous doesn't.

[Jay Dyer]

Your belief in the Supreme Deity is itself a denial of who Christ is. That's the argument.

[Chase]

You don't believe in a Supreme God.

[Jay Dyer]

That's why we already showed you the word concept fallacy and the quantifier shift that when you say Supreme God. If I believe the Supreme God is Satan, you qualify it to prove my point that it's a quantified.

[Chase]

I understand. But just to require people to believe in a Supreme Being is not the same thing as acknowledging the authenticity of any specific Supreme Being being. Freemasonry is not claiming which God is the real God. Requiringly reading my point. Right. Because it's not a religion, it's a secular.

[Tristan]

There we go. So the Supreme Being is sufficiently generic to be Shiva, Hindu, whatever, Allah. But also you can't be in it if you're a Satanist, a Gnostic, etc. Hopefully people see. This is so silly.

[Chase]

Oh, it is.

[Jay Dyer]

As we've seen as you qualify all of these things that exclude you. So.

[Chase]

Yeah, but the way I qualified it was not by the official policies of any Masonic doctrine or law or writing. I was not fiction. I'm just telling you that the culture of the fraternity is never going to house somebody like that.

[Jay Dyer]

Culture doesn't matter. All I have to do is logically prove that when you say that it's a Supreme Being, it is not equivalent to the Christian doctrine of the Trinity and the deed of Christ.

[Ryan]

It's a.

[Jay Dyer]

It's a quantifier shift fallacy. It's a word concept fallacy. Because you keep asking me, don't you believe in the Supreme Being? I don't believe in the Supreme Being. As Masonry's philosophy lays out.

[Chase]

Masonry doesn't lay out.

[Jay Dyer]

It does lay out. Every time we talk about it, they explain that Masonry philosophy allows it to be anything that you paste on to it. That is the argument why it's false.

[Chase]

Yes, it's. It accepts different philosophies and.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you.

[Tristan]

There we go. So it's sufficiently relativistic that it's not a specific God. Does the God of the Bible sound like he's non specific or specific? If he's specific, then you pushing the Masonic gibberish is against him. The non specific God in Acts 17 is the one that they don't know

[Chase]

the end of the organization. It accepts those, but it does not condone or endorse any of them.

[Jay Dyer]

The acceptance of a supreme generic being is itself a rejection of the Trinity.

[Chase]

So when this requires you to believe in a higher power, but does not specify which higher power you must believe in, it is explicitly denying Christ.

[Jay Dyer]

If you're arguing that the Supreme Being that allows for all of the sex to come together under the Masonic banner, yes.

[Chase]

No. But there is no personification of a specific God in Freemasonry. There's just the requirement that you believe in the Supreme Being.

[Jay Dyer]

The requirement you say believe in the Supreme Being. You are attaching predicates that specify certain types of things. And then when you explain what that is, you say that it can't be theistic Satanism and it can't be me being God. So you refute yourself yourself when you explain the terms.

[Chase]

I disagree. Because the showing that's wrong, the refutation of a Satan is getting to a lodge is not a matter of policy. It's a matter of practical outcome.

[Jay Dyer]

That's irrelevant to the way that you theologically describe the Supreme Being.

[Ryan]

Still, having a base set of requirements or foundational beliefs is not the same as us being a religion or making the claim that all religions are equal, that we're all worshiping the same God.

[Jay Dyer]

I didn't argue that I just simply argued that the claim that. That you allow for and require a belief in a higher power, that is a supreme being, is itself already a rejection of the Trinity and the deity of Christ. That's the argument. Now you can say we don't require a specific belief. None of that addresses the argument that I'm making. Do you not understand?

[Chase]

No, I think I understand. I just, just. I just fundamentally disagree.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. And how is it wrong?

[Chase]

Because I think that requiring someone to believe in a supreme green. This is a supreme being in order to be a member of an organization is not explicitly denying any specific.

[Ryan]

There's nothing.

[Jay Dyer]

You deny that it's the theistic Satanist being.

[Chase]

So that's why you're wrong.

[Tristana]

Wrong.

[Ryan]

There's nothing that I've ever experienced or been required in Masonry that has alluded to or required me to somehow not have a belief in a Trinity, not have a belief in Jesus. The fact that these are my individual, personal beliefs that make me a part of this organization. And we, We've. We've beat this to death. But we could go into, like, why this even exists, like, why.

[Tristan]

Why it's. I mean, they're still not addressing the argument. It's. It's flying. It's right in their face, and it's going over their heads. The argument is that Masonry is teaching that you have to believe in some supreme higher power. The generic theism there is inconsistent and is a dogma and is also contradictory to what Jesus says about himself. That's the argument. And they keep saying, but you don't have to believe anything to be in. In Masonry. That's the thing that's contradictory to Christianity.

[Ryan]

Why do we even have this fraternity where we allow members of different beliefs to be in it? And it's essentially goes back. You know, there's a little bit of debate on who started first. The Scots and the Londoners kind of argue over who had the first lodge. But essentially you're coming out of the era of the English Civil War. And prior to the English Civil War, you also have several other religious wars in Europe. And they were trying to create a society of men who had different religious beliefs but could still come together and work on themselves and work together for good. That was. That was the entire purpose of it. And why we allowed it to be open to these different religions. Yes, with some qualifiers.

[Jay Dyer]

Jay, are those theological qualifiers?

[Ryan]

Perhaps, if you want to label it that way.

[Jay Dyer]

Two hours to get this.

[Ryan]

Does that.

[Tristan]

So there he admitted theological qualifiers right there.

[Ryan]

Make it a theology. Does that make it Generic qualifiers that makes it some sort of qualifier against Satanism, makes it incompatible Christianity.

[Chase]

These qualifiers. Here's, here's the problem. These qualifiers are not a matter of explicit written Mason policy. These qualifiers are a practical outcome of, of the, the, the, the content of the membership.

[Moderator]

All right, I think we've beat this to death. Let's. I, I have a final question. I want to go around the horn and anybody wants to ask a question

[Jay Dyer]

during this can go walk up over

[Moderator]

there and go towards the audience. Mic, Joel and Sarah, would you mind getting a position for that? And okay, so I want to ask a ending question real quick. And so we can start with Chase and go all the way around here. If Paul were alive today and he was writing a letter to Freemasonly, more broadly. Now, I know it's not a centralized force. Let's just say the same letter goes to each, each lodge. So he's writing to, you know, Freemasonry, tm, more broadly, the institution First Masons, Chapter three. Well, I just. What do you think Paul's sentiment towards Freemasonry would be? So he's writing letters to all churches, not, you know, not just Freemasonry as, you know, an institution or whatever. But would he have positive things to say, negative things to say? Do you think he'd be just indifferent, period?

[Chase]

That's a really good question, and frankly, I don't know the answer.

[Ryan]

Yeah, I'd really hate to pretend that I could speak for the Apostle Paul that said, you know, Paul was a student of comparative religion. He did study other religions, and he went in and tried to connect with him. I don't think, think. I can't think of a theological position of the Apostle Paul that would be contradictory.

[Tristan]

Exactly right. Hopefully people can figure out where I'm immediately going to go, because it turns out there already is a biblical discussion

[Ryan]

from Paul about the unknown God towards Freemasonry, maybe. Jazzlyn.

[Jay Dyer]

Right. Well, so we actually have a biblical example of the very thing that was asked, which is essentially the Mars Hill discourse, where Paul goes to debate the Greek philosophers and the pagans in Acts 17. And if you look at Acts 17, the philosophy that they have, and certainly the Republic, different philosophers there were. Stoics are mentioned, Epicureans are mentioned, but probably Platonists, Pythagoreans, who knows? But one of the dominant elements of Hellenic philosophy was the idea that the world was eternally in motion or eternally moved. And that's whether that's Plato's emanations or Plotinus's later emanations after Paul or whether that's Aristotle's eternal mover arguments. Again, you heard me at the very beginning mention that in Basil Saxameron in Lecture two, he mentions the deity of Aristotle being a dyad which is an eternal world, moves and essentially existing through the first cause or the first actualizer. So in that philosophy, you can see Paul refuting them in Acts 17, having essentially the philosophy of generic theism that Masonry holds to. And Paul argues that the deity that the Athenians are worshiping, he says that they even have an idol to the

[Tristan]

unknown God there without any name.

[Jay Dyer]

And he says that deity that you claim to worship, this unknown God or this lost name that we mentioned earlier, that I mentioned earlier tonight, the Masonry has this lost name of God. Well, it turns out Paul actually answers all those questions. He says the unknown God is the one that you actually worship unknowingly. And I don't believe that that means that Masons are actually worshiping God or Christ. It is the trinitarian deity that is expressed through the incarnation of the Lord Jesus Christ. So he actually says that we do know the name of God. It's Jesus. It's not Jabalon, it's not the Tetragrammaton, although the Tetragrammaton points to Christ. So the answer is in Acts 17, ironically.

[Moderator]

All right, we got time for a few questions. Keep it to one, please, and go for it.

[Jay Dyer]

So on the Freemason side, I remember when you said that you don't know which books are in the Bible and which.

[Tristan]

There's some really good questions, by the way, which aren't.

[Jay Dyer]

And I really like that kind of Christianity. I have here with me the recently discovered Gospel of Jack. It's a very short book, but it is divinely inspired and perfect, just like the rest of the Gospels. It says, and then Jesus said, give Jack all the money, all the women he made. He alone may have infinity wives. Do you reject the Gospel of Jack? If yes, why? Please, Jay, answer first. Well, Christianity was provided by Christ with a normative authority within history to make these types of decisions in a synodal, conciliar way. We can see in the first thousand years of the church that Christianity always had these types of local and ecumenical synods. And so that's the normative way that the church is governed. There are people who make the decisions of who's in and who's out. That's the Orthodox Church pretty clearly in the first thousand years. And I would say that that's probably still the case.

[Discerning Catholic]

Today,

[Chase]

do I reject the Gospel of Jack?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Tristana]

What?

[Chase]

Yes, I reject the Gospel of Jack. I'm going to answer the question why, other than the fact that it was, you know, made up as an example, an argument to ask a question that's.

[Tristan]

They never understand theoretical lines of argument. This kind of blows my mind. Like they actually just take every hypothetical, as if you're saying it literally. That's associated with silly.

[Chase]

It just doesn't. It doesn't line up within any. The context of this current theology that I have. But I currently believe it's unnecessary.

[Tristan]

It's so because it doesn't line up with Chase's current theology is the reason

[Chase]

why it doesn't line up at all with any of the Christian philosophy in the New Testament.

[Jay Dyer]

So do you determine the canon?

[Chase]

Do I determine?

[Ryan]

No.

[Chase]

And Jesus does. But we do our best.

[Jay Dyer]

Where did Jesus determine the canon of Scripture?

[Chase]

I'm sorry, where did Jesus determine. I'm sorry, I misunderstood your question. Yes. So as here's my philosophy on, on the, on the Bible, let me just be explicit here.

[Tristana]

It's obvious he used the term my current theology. Right. So this is, of course, assumption that your theology is in flux, it's changing. It's not eternally true. I mean, he affirmed earlier that he doesn't even think you can know absolute truth or have any sort of epistemic certainty. So it's.

[Chase]

That's pretty funny from, from the New Testament that you can be a Christian before the Bible was compiled or written.

[Tristana]

Right.

[Chase]

It's obvious that people are being baptized Christian. Even before Jesus was dead or any of it actually happened, there was baptisms that were taking place. And one of the concerns that I have about contemporary Christianity, I don't mean to make this a specifically theological debate, because it doesn't really matter what I think is true or not religiously as far as is relevant to the argument

[Jay Dyer]

that we're having about whether or not

[Chase]

freemasonry is compatible with Christianity. I think one of the mistakes that modern contemporary Christians make is they worship the Bible as a false idol and they study it more than they contemplate and pursue a relationship with God. So if you can be a Christian without the Bible, that means that the Bible is. It's something that's added that's unnecessary. It's important. It contains true truth. It documents what happened historically. It explains the theology. But I feel miffed sometimes by Christians who spend all their time studying specific verses and specific letters that weren't even required to be known or written or conceived in Order to be a Christian orig. Originally. I think that we should focus on our relationship with God through Jesus Christ more than we focus on studying the. The scripture. I do feel that way, personally. No, it's a controversial take.

[Moderator]

Ryan, you want to answer that or do you want to go next one?

[Ryan]

What are we still on?

[Moderator]

All right, yes. Let's just go the next one here for time's sake.

[Chase]

I think I believe God's a paradox. And I think even now the Orthodox Church allows non Christians beyond the nave. But my question is specific for Jay, but I love everyone to chime in. Um, I'm employed at a multinational corporation. We have over 600, 000 employees and we even employ irreligious atheists. I have private closed door business meetings with them.

[Tristan]

This is so. This is so low tier. This guy's like, so I can't be in a corporation because I'm in there with other non Christians. As if it's like an equivalence between the Masonic Lodge and a corporation.

[Chase]

Does that conflict with my Roman Catholic Christian duties in religion?

[Jay Dyer]

Religion?

[Tristan]

I wouldn't think so.

[Jay Dyer]

As a Roman Catholic, you have. There's. I've never heard of anything that would conflict between a corporate stance unless you were through the corporation explicitly required to do something that would be a mortal sin or something like that.

[Tristana]

Thank you.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you making the equivalence to Masonry?

[Chase]

If you gather that and deduce it, I think it's fair. I think he's trying to. I don't want to speak for him. I think he's trying to imply. Imply that. What's. He's trying to ask the question, what's the difference between working for an organization that allows people to deny Christ and in joining a fraternity that that is ambiguous in its definition of the Supreme

[Jay Dyer]

Being because the ambiguity actually turned into specificity, which was the point. And your own Catholic Church dogmatizes and mandates that you can't be a freemason in the canon law. So you would be against Roman Catholic canon law being a Mason, but you would not be against Roman Catholic canon law by being in a corporation. And the difference is precisely because. Because Masonry, as we've seen tonight, is not just a philosophy or a secular society, it actually has an explicated theological requirement. And that was what I was trying to demonstrate. Those are false equivalents.

[Chase]

It's a good point. I didn't make the equivalence.

[Jay Dyer]

Let's go to the next one.

[Tristan]

Sorry.

[Chase]

Good question.

[Moderator]

Good question. We got time for a few more, so go for it.

[Jay Dyer]

Hey, it's for Jay. Christ Is risen first of all, and quickly.

[Moderator]

Do you have any plans for a Freemason?

[Jay Dyer]

Krin's core track. And what, what are some good books that I can read on the Jewish

[Moderator]

accomplished connection with Freemasonry?

[Jay Dyer]

I might get my throat slit if I make. Yeah, you got it.

[Chase]

Plug your own books, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

That's just a joke. There's a great book that somebody sent me many years ago by William Green called the Blazing Star and the Jewish Kabbalah, and it's about the influence of Kabbalah on Freemasonry. William Green, A question for the two Freemasons. St. Paul wrote about not being unequally yoked with unbelievers.

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I know you guys kind of touched on the oath taking and how

[Jay Dyer]

we do take an oath in a

[Ryan]

courtroom and that sort of thing, but

[Jay Dyer]

you call your lodge members brothers.

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Ryan]

And I wonder about God specifically calls us in the Christian faith to be set apart from the world. Why would you fraternize with people who

[Tristan]

believe in a version of a deity that is Antichrist? Exactly. Exactly. Well said.

[Chase]

Yeah, that's a good question on it. I would say that. And Ryan, other to your thoughts, too, I, I, I think that distinguishing between who's a legitimate brother in Christ is, is different than qualifying people as fraternity brothers. So there are some brothers in the fraternity, for example, who I would not consider brothers in Christ because we don't share the same theological. I wouldn't take communion with these people. But what we're doing in the, in the Masonic Lodge is not, it's not like a religious sacrament or, or that type of, that type of communion. What would you say, Ryan?

[Ryan]

Yeah, essentially that, I mean, I, I would just add to it that, you know, the idea that, well, your original point about being unequally yoked, there is no, you know, I've never had a Masonic brother try to talk me out of my Christianity to proselytize another faith. There's nothing that's made me doubt my faith. Faith, it's a personal journey, an individual journey that exposes you to different ideas. But you're left up, you know, as a man to still make your own determinations. And I've actually seen the opposite. I've seen men that joined the fraternity that didn't start out as Christians, maybe they had a more deistic view. Maybe they were just kind of, you know, I'm an example of that. And through their involvement in the fraternity, which stresses, it doesn't tell you which pitch, but it stresses the need for you to seek out God, these men have become strong Christians through Freemasonry. And I've not seen the opposite. I've not seen a strong, strong Christians

[Tristan]

who don't even know when the Bible was put together, what Constantine did. They don't know anything about anything, but they're strong Christians now.

[Ryan]

Christian man join and then somehow be turned into a Hindu or. Etc.

[Jay Dyer]

I would say that that's a great text because in the context of Corinthians, where Paul's talking about that, he's talking about religiously, physically, theologically, you know, all types of unions that you could have with somebody says, we can't share the table of demons and the table of God. We can be unequally yoked. For example, he advises against marrying an unbelieving wife. So there are spiritual realities, according to Paul, that.

[Tristan]

So again, people in the chat like, you guys are not getting. Doesn't matter that Freemasonry says it's not religious. The argument is no, it in fact is religious. And we demonstrated that for the first hour that they have religious commitments. Even in saying that you believe in generic theism and a quote, supreme being, that is a religious commitment that entails a bunch of other commitments. That's what I demonstrated to them when I said, can I be a Satanist? Can I be agnostic? Can I believe that I'm God? No, no, no, no, no. So there's all these criteria that exclude you from membership. And it doesn't matter if they say, but it's just because we don't like you, that's the exclusion. Well, the exclusion that you don't like me is still based on some standard. Standard of the good or the bad. So they have an ethic,

[Jay Dyer]

yoke us and link us through these types of oaths and organizations, even though they claim that it's purely secular, as we've seen, I think tonight, the claims are not actually, when they're fleshed out, purely secular, they're actually heavily theological. So I think this is a really good point.

[Ryan]

Bring up the obligations again, where you're specifically told that they are not incompatible or above the obligations, the duties that you have to God, your family, your command country.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. Are you brotherhood yoked with Hindus?

[Chase]

Say again?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm sorry? Are you brotherhood yoked with Hindus?

[Chase]

I'm in the context of a. Oh,

[Tristan]

I think this was a. I forgot this part.

[Chase]

Lodge. I think probably the answer is yes, but.

[Ryan]

Yeah, all right.

[Jay Dyer]

Only each one point proven, right.

[Moderator]

And just for the time's sake.

[Ryan]

Okay, sure.

[Jay Dyer]

You make one final point. One final point.

[Chase]

When I'm brotherhood yoked with my biological brother too, regardless of what he believes. Right, yeah.

[Ryan]

The implication there is that you, you somehow, because of that being yoked, as in a marriage perhaps, where you know, you have someone of a different faith that you're married to, that there's, there's some obligation or pressure there to adopt their faith and there's not.

[Jay Dyer]

Paul doesn't say that. He just simply says to be unequally yoked.

[Tristan]

I mean, could I be in the

[Jay Dyer]

Mithra cult at the same time as being a Christian?

[Discerning Catholic]

No.

[Chase]

Thanks.

[Moderator]

Next question.

[Ryan]

Thank you everyone for being here. I appreciate the debate. This question is for Ryan. You talked about how a monotheistic Satanist would not pass a moral character test of Freemasons. So that kind of talks the to. To objective morality.

[Chase]

So I was wondering, how are Muslims

[Ryan]

able to become freemasons when they believe in child brides, female circumcision, Other demonic.

[Chase]

Wouldn't get in my lodge.

[Tristan]

I would say, oh, and then they say, I don't want it. That's not the question.

[Ryan]

They would not be allowed. But there is.

[Jay Dyer]

We're not asking you, we're asking the lodge.

[Ryan]

Sure. Yeah. Well there, there's. Okay. You brought up a funny example about Sati. Am I pronouncing that right? One of your videos, Satu, the practice of widow burning and Hindu Hinduism. And you imply that, you know, because we may allow a Hindu, that we would have to accept this practice of widow burning. I think.

[Jay Dyer]

No, the argument is. What he said, it's. What's the argument? It's arbitrary.

[Ryan]

Did you not make that claim or am I missing?

[Jay Dyer]

The point of the argument is not that you support widow burning, it's that the ethics are arbitrary.

[Tristan]

I mean this is so low tier. It's like obviously if I said Hindus who believe in widow burning, how are you going to have a common ethic

[Jay Dyer]

with people that believe.

[Tristan]

Believe that. That's the point. So you're saying that I have to accept widow burning? No, this guy is just like, cannot get this.

[Ryan]

No, they're not. They're the entire system. The degrees are teaching very specific ethics philosophies from.

[Tristan]

This is where I get him right here.

[Jay Dyer]

And we saw that. That was from.

[Tristan]

We don't know where.

[Jay Dyer]

Cardinal virtues. Okay, says who?

[Ryan]

That was one small example.

[Jay Dyer]

But I mean where. You never said where.

[Tristan]

I'm gonna slow this down because it's the best part right here.

[Jay Dyer]

They're from. You said, I don't know.

[Ryan]

No, I said we pull from a lot of different religions. In them.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you pull from religions for your ethics. Oh, we remember this wasn't a. The theological society.

[Tristan]

It's not a religious. It's not a theological society. Where do you get your ethic. We pull from religions here that they're arbitrary.

[Ryan]

No, they're not. They're the entire system. The degrees are teaching very specific ethics philosophies from.

[Jay Dyer]

And we saw that that was from.

[Tristan]

We don't know where.

[Jay Dyer]

Cardinal virtues. Okay, says who?

[Ryan]

That was one small example.

[Jay Dyer]

But I mean, we.

[Tristan]

And where we.

[Jay Dyer]

You never said where they're from. You said, I don't know.

[Ryan]

No, I said we pull from a lot of different religions in the.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you pull from religions for your ethics. Oh, we remember this wasn't a. The theological society.

[Discerning Catholic]

Oh,

[Tristan]

that's where it was really over right there, I think.

[Ryan]

Didn't you agree that religions contain philosophies

[Jay Dyer]

that weren't just going by what you just said?

[Ryan]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

So you. Do you pull from religions.

[Ryan]

We pour your ethics philosophies that are. You just said religions.

[Jay Dyer]

You messed up and said religions.

[Ryan]

Religions nicely. We pull from religions. We pull philosophies that English with it.

[Jay Dyer]

Do you pull your ethics from religions? That's what he said.

[Ryan]

And not just religions. Some of it. There is some stuff you tripped up.

[Tristan]

This is like a kid getting caught stealing in the cookie jar. And he's like, well, I didn't. I was gonna get the cookies and also feed the dog with the cookies. And it's not just cookies for me. I'm stealing the cookies for other Robin Hood. I'm stealing the cookies for all the kids and neighborhood. It's like, yeah, okay, we got you, dude. We got you.

[Jay Dyer]

And undid all of your first hour of argument.

[Tristana]

If he was pressed on where you get ethics and morals from and that those are inherently religious values that you would have to be pulling from a religion.

[Tristan]

Exactly.

[Tristana]

And then for him to even admit that, you know, freemasonry. Oh, we. There are ethical boundaries. We. We believe in certain ethics and morals, and there are boundaries. And you could be, you know, if you were a Satanist, you couldn't be it. If you're a bad guy, you can't join. It's It. It also contradicts. I mean, there's so many ways that you got him on that same point from so many different angles that it's. It's. It's crazy that he still thinks that he's able to kind of square the circle there.

[Tristan]

Oh, swearing the circle there. You just went full Mason on him, right There, dude.

[Ryan]

No, I. Yeah, no.

[Tristan]

Yeah you did.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh you just said you pull from religions. That undoes everything in the first hour.

[Ryan]

I've said that.

[Jay Dyer]

You refuted your whole first hour with us.

[Tristan]

There you go. And I don't. I hammer him hard on that statement right there.

[Ryan]

You've already hit this topic.

[Jay Dyer]

Let's go to the next person, please.

[Moderator]

Go ahead.

[Tristan]

I think you.

[Jay Dyer]

You kind of already touched with a previous question. But you know, Jesus says no one comes as the father but through me.

[Bus Driver]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

Do y' all make as Christians and me the Masons? Do you make an effort to proselytize Muslims or.

[Tristan]

Anyway, the last part is the. If you guys want to watch it, you can go watch it. But that's enough of this. They didn't get me on the part about the. It was just another false equivalence to say that reciting the pledge of allegiance is the same thing as masonry. No, it's a false equivalence saying the pledge of allegiance is not initiation into a blood oath brotherhood based around the Zohar. So no. Anybody else? So overall, thoughts? You guys feel free to talk about whatever you want to. We'll read some super chats if you want to watch the rest of it. If you think I'm lying, you can go watch it here. What'd you guys think? Who won the debate here? I'm gonna put. Let's do a poll here and you know, be honest. If you think that I didn't do that, well, feel free.

[Tristana]

Yes, but jobulum is an option. Should won the debate.

[Tristan]

Job won the debate.

[Tristana]

Oh yeah, I think j. Clearly.

[Tristan]

Anybody else?

[Tristana]

It was really one sided. I don't think I was expecting them to. To seem a little bit more heated too. Like you said it maybe it was more.

[Tristan]

Well, this is edited physically.

[Tristana]

You could seeing their physical reactions to what's going on and the level of the voice.

[Tristan]

Well they ought they. They balanced the audio levels and also several. I mean it was clipped. I'm not saying they. They didn't cut. Cut out any argumentation, but they might have cut out some of the. The angry parts, but it was intense. You can ask the people who were there. Let's see a couple of super ch shots. T cop True. Tuka Troopa $20. Great to see Tristan back on the stream, guys. I will split the super chats with Tristan tonight. So you guys are also supporting him. Dank bud $5. This was a dank stream. Snake foot $2 referencing our.

[Tristana]

Our last stream.

[Tristan]

Exactly that. Yep. It was a straight up pimp as hell, dude. The Stream was pimp as hell. It was so sick. Snakefoot says get a PhD and then start a bipoc church and then Gavin will debate you. Exactly. Be cursed. $5. Will you be part of the new network with Alex? Yeah, I think so. I mean I will at least continue what I've been doing. I don't know whether I'll have my own show or whatever, but we'll see. Nick says, I love the clip where Alex is interviewing the guy on the street about him and Grip. That's Dave Griffin Gergen. Yeah, we played that before. Dead to the world. What's up craftsman? Alex Jones getting a rear choke by Craig Jones was awesome. Tengu $20. It's going to be a good night, boys and girls. Cheer up. Cheers to Jay in the chat and Tristan.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you.

[Tristan]

Frontier says Alex Jones is Bill Hicks. That's not true. Alex looks like him. That is. You know, there's a lot of people look like people. That doesn't mean they are them.

[Tristana]

He doesn't look like them at all anymore. I mean maybe 20 years ago when that kind of rumor started, there was a little bit of physical resemblance. But also if he was Bill Hicks, he would be like 70 something years old.

[Tristan]

I know, it's so retarded. I used to watch Bill Hicks in the early 90s on stand up and Alex was like. Alex would have been like a teenager. So no, Alex Jones was not Bill Hicks doing Stand up in the 1990s. That late night at the Improv with, with the Caroline Ray and all the stand ups of the 90s, Bill Hicks

[Tristana]

just, he blasted himself so hard with, with mushrooms. At the end of his career when he was like dying, remember he was, he was getting really into the psychedelics.

[Tristan]

He was all, yeah, he was a Psychon MK Ultra.

[Tristana]

Then he went and he emerged from his MK Ultra, you know, Kunpa Chamber. He just as Alex Jones. I don't understand the like people legit believe that people actually think that that is. That's Dogma. Some people.

[Tristan]

Pepper Prophet says Jay Tristan. How does it feel to be podcast mogged by Jay Diaper?

[Tristana]

I think I actually first want to say Jay Diaper. I saying that like making fun of the people that make fun of your names. There was Jay Diaper. There was Jay Derrick Dryer. I don't, I think I might have been because I just thought Jay Dryer sounded like that's not even an insult. But then Sam Shamoon still talk calls him Gay Dryer.

[Tristan]

No, now I'm Gay Crier. So he's up to his game there.

[Tristana]

Just like, yeah, we're at fourth grade level now. But I. I did. I do think Jay Diaper is. Is a funny one as like a fourth grade.

[Tristan]

Well, in grade school I was Jay Diarrhea.

[Tristana]

So was it. I thought I was Owen Benjamin said J. Diarrhea.

[Tristan]

No, but I'm saying that it didn't begin with Owen Benjamin. It began in grade school.

[Tristana]

Oh, great. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was actual grade school.

[Chase]

Okay.

[Tristana]

Yeah. Well, yeah, I was. I was trying to separate Internet for reality, but I mixed it in there when I brought up the. What was that? What's your favorite? You have a favorite, like insult name?

[Tristan]

I mean, J. Diarrhea is just classic because it goes back to grade school. So. And speak speaking.

[Tristana]

You like how Owen also had to make like a s. He had to turn it into like a sodomy thing. He like, you can't spell analysis with what.

[Tristan]

When does he not turn it into pe. Pe. Poo. Poo. That's all I got.

[Tristana]

Yeah, he just can't get so to me off his mind. He had to go there. That was. That was funny.

[Tristan]

This might be the highest percentile debate yet so far. And of course it is my audience. But right now, polling 94% percent, there must be 6% Freemasons. But Lockstep said for $10. I literally pooped my pants today at the park. Speaking of poopy stuff, he says I was playing disc golf. We had to stop. Thank you for the stream. Hope your guts are okay. Intrinsic $5.

[Ryan]

J.

[Tristan]

Do you know anything about. You don't know anything. Tiger sauce is. I don't know what that is. And it works. So he's a fan of Charlie Sheen's Tiger Blood. Apparently it works. Works. Ad word. $12. There's an old clip of Alex talking about things I'm can't mention on YouTube. He spurgs out, I don't believe Alex is fake. So I disagree. Reckon. $5. Do you see Ruslan's sermon? He cited St. John Chrysostom as if St. John Chrysostom supports the teachings of the Rhythm Church. Well, I hope people are seeing through the fraud here, the nonsense, because Ruslan shared Redeemed Zoomers comment that the Protestant reformers and the church fathers have identical beliefs on everything. That's what they said. So not a Mossad agent. $10 at a. I'm at a. At my friend's old Protestant church. They said West Huff was the best apologist because he beat Billy Corson. I said that Westhough is gay because he won't debate anybody. How can you be the best apologist when you won't debate anybody? Well, you just debate the 1 lowest hanging fruit and then you declare yourself the Victor Raziel.

[Tristana]

Nobody even knew who Billy Corson was. Like, I never even heard of Billy Corson. How was. How was that?

[Tristan]

No, he was actually. He was on a. He was on a podcast tour right before he was on Rogan pbd. Right before West Huff debated him and pretty much ended all that. Bumblebee, $5. Do you think Ruslan would agree to rap battle or would it have to be him battling a. A catechumen? Yeah, he's only going to battle catechumen, right? Snake Foot, $2. No, we do that. Leave it to Ethan. $10. Jay, the Kaku interview was phenomenal. I really hope he comes back for more conversations. Yeah, I hope so too.

[Tristana]

It was.

[Tristan]

It was a great, great chat. Probably my. My favorite. One of my best interviews. Craftsman, $10. We did that. Tingu, $20. It's gonna be a long night, boys.

[Jay Dyer]

Thank you.

[Tristan]

Frontier. No addition to that. Vanilla. $5. Protestants use Luke 24 to justify the Protestant canon because Jesus mentions laws pro the prophets and the Psalms. That doesn't tell us what the canon is. That's so. That's such a low tier argument. That's just assuming that him saying that. I mean, you could make the same argument that in another verse where he says, you know, in the law, law, that, oh well, Jesus only says the law, so the canon is only the law. Right. I mean, it's just silly. How do we know? How do we if. If we're gonna base our canon on generalized statements of the Old Testament, how do we know which statement is a canonical statement? Maybe we're supposed to be Torah only Christians because Jesus says in the law. Well, the fact that he says in another verse in the law, the prophets and the Psalms, there's nothing about that that tells us the specific list of the canon. This is just silly. Tipper. Jay, where do I buy a. Your prayer book? Yeah, it's the blue one from Transfiguration Monastery. I don't know if you can still get them or not. Joseph, $10. Will you cover the Archangel Uriel's text in 4th Ezra? Maybe. I never thought about that. There's a response on the Mystery of Suffering, and it mirrors the response to Job. Interesting. It's been a long time since I read any of the deuterocanonical historical texts. I mean, I was actually. I did Reread Siric recently. And I read Reread Wisdom, but I haven't read Judith or Tobit or Maccabees or Esdras or any of those in a long time.

[Jay Dyer]

So maybe I should go back to

[Tristan]

those Emilio Fadal dollars. Thank you for your content. I'm writing a paper on the Big Z for my pastor. Do you have books on the history of the Big Z? Well, the best one is Rothschild's biography by Morton and Moses Hess's book Jerusalem and Athens. Nick, $10. In the scope of YouTube, you have 200K. Ruslan has 800K. They are not far apart. Apart? What do you mean, not far apart? We're blowing them away. What are you talking about?

[Jay Dyer]

Simple things. Pointing out that we're meant to be in nature and be natural. And this is where we find the source that God made to transcend the new world order.

[Chase]

And that's why they want to try

[Tristan]

to keep us out. I've had enough of these people. They're a bunch of Christian Murray scums.

[Tristana]

And the Giant Day.

[Tristan]

The factories keeping babies alive, selling their body parts.

[K]

What more do you need to know about these people? I go out and face these scum.

[Tristan]

They literally crawl out from under rocks. They have green skin and they run around screaming, we love Satan.

[Tristana]

We want to eat babies. I have them on video.

[Tristan]

All right, that's not that. No, Nick, we're blowing Ruzon away.

[Tristana]

The best part is right after.

[Tristan]

Okay, here we go.

[K]

That woman number one is ugly. Imagine how bad she smells, man. I'm told her and Obama just stink. Obama and Hillary both smell like sofa. Firepot. And the goblins are hobbling round coming after us.

[Tristan]

My spirit gets close to that evil

[K]

and I feel it go. We'll such self sin a crap we don't even know this hand itself rising up against us millions upon it people of the best. There was tapping. I'm so pissed. We're going to stab your daughter at the mall. Oh, oh, oh. We're going to stab your wife, your son. We're going to stab you with a butcher night. And then the police chief is going to say, we love our Somalis. We love our Muslims. Oh, that's so good.

[Tristan]

Bon Iver thought they were gonna really get at Alex with that satire. And it ended up being like 30 million views on that song.

[Tristana]

Bonnie Bear didn't do that. That was like an onion type thing that did it. It was some, like, intern at a TMZ type gig.

[Tristan]

No. Are you serious?

[Tristana]

Yeah. Yeah. It's not funny. There It's. It's super well done. And they imitated the style, like, perfectly. But it's not. It's not.

[Tristan]

Oh, this whole. All this time, I thought it was. Let's see. Because it sounds like that. Let's see.

[Tristana]

Insert. It was like, somebody. It wasn't even, you know, comedian or anything. I think it was. Obviously, a few people wrote that together or didn't write it, but it's. They found really good clip lips. I mean, it also shows. I mean, they really prove that Alex is just legitimately, like, one of the best modern poets. Literal vampire pot belly goblins are hobbling around, coming after us.

[Discerning Catholic]

That's like.

[Tristana]

You don't even have to sing it. It just sounds so. Literal vampire pot belly goblins are hobbling around, coming after us.

[Tristan]

Okay, so standard crap.

[Tristana]

We don't even notice hell itself rising up against us.

[Tristan]

So, Nick, you're right. It's a guy named Nick Lutz. Lutsko, A comedian and singer. Okay, I never heard of this guy. Nick Lutsko. He's not even, like, capitalizing on. This is, like, his biggest thing, and he's not even, like, capitalizing on it. Let's see. Maybe he's got it on his channel. Nick Luto.

[Tristana]

And the thing is, it's not. It's all Alex, right? I mean, Alex wrote all those lines, and every one of the lines that's in there is so good. I mean, it's. He's. He's. He at that point where the time period where those. Where those clips came from, he was such a good wordsmith. He has. He's lost his. I think he's. He used up all his words because he's. There was a time when he was just so funny. Man, he was so funny. I still like Alex, but, yeah, it was. There was. There was a period where he was just on fire.

[Tristan]

Dr. Eggman, $2. I can't comment on that because I haven't read enough of Father Stephen Young in the. In the. In the text to say so. I don't know. Raziel, I messaged you on Discord. I'll check it out. Great Scott says, here's a little money for the stain remover for that shirt. Yeah, I spit the coffee out on my shirt earlier. Great Scott says, use some club soda. It'll get the stain out. President, $20. Tristana diva. Mogs J. Oh, my gosh. That's not true. I can't believe you said that. Tristan is the song bird of a generation. Wow.

[Tristana]

Wow. Is that a separate super chat or is that was just one super chat?

[Tristan]

No, that was one guy. You have a 1 super fan in the office audience.

[Tristana]

I can't refute that. I mean I. I would try but I can't.

[Tristan]

Amelia and $20. Jay, what book do you recommend about Rome Changing Church Father Texts and Forgeries. The two volume set that uncut mountain put out Latin Errors volume one and volume two. I forget which volume has the. The sections on the forgeries. But George, whom we interviewed on the channel, you can find our interview on that. He's pretty much the guy who just kind of went all into that. Would it help with the Filoque? That one will deal with that. Yeah, but the Filoque book. I'd say read Sashinsky's book on the filioque too. Sergio, $5. John Adams doesn't get enough props good recommendations from him. Yeah, he's a great. In fact we met him on the. On the trip out to California and he gave me a big old stack of books. So he always giving out books icon at says $10. The Masons sound like they're a blend of new agers who pretend to be fancier and smarter than they are. Maybe I'm wrong. No. And the new age actually comes out of Masonry. In fact, Madame Blavatsky wrote an article back at the turn of the last century for the Scottish Right Journal and which is a Masonic journal saying that Masonry would be kind of the. The era of the. The they. The religion of the future so to speak.

[Tristana]

And then also in the SRI publication. What was it called? What's the. I covered it.

[Tristan]

Changing Changing Images of Man.

[Tristana]

Changing Images of Man. Yeah, in the last few chapters of that. I think. I think it's the last few chapters. Basically their model for the future man and how you should structure society is. Is Freemasonry.

[Tristan]

Madburn says Ruslan, aka the failed rapper JRock is co opting orthodox Christianity because he knows. Knows that his grift is now exposed. This is the natural progression once people get exposed. It seems to be the case. And by the way, like I'll never stop going against these guys once you, you know, try to do this kind of stuff to me, like I'm not gonna stop. So we'll be like Alex Jones over here. I'll keep going. JB Peltier, $5 1 up me now

[Tristana]

be the biggest diva again.

[Tristan]

I think that's already been decided a long time ago.

[Tristana]

So I mean I don't see any super chats backing up your. Your claim, but that's fine.

[Tristan]

Tristan, I sent that one in under a sock account to make you feel better just so you would come back to the streams. I did that. So you come back to these streams. Dude, come on. Let's see. We got JB says the. The Masonic position is demonic. They're blatant, relative relativist. It was implied, but decidedly never acknowledged in the debate. Yeah, I think that. I think they did constantly. They wasn't just imply. They multiple times were relativistic in their arguments. But guru. $10. I was a vegan for seven years. Not that I ever liked that clown. But I love the debate that you had with vegan gains back in the day with Tristan. That's how I discovered you and how I got back into good stuff. That's good. It's how I've seen you. It's good to see that you've climbed since. Thank you. Yeah. In fact, that was one of the early debates. Was actually me and Tristan versus Ask yourself and vegan gains. Remember those days?

[Tristana]

That was such a funny. People still laugh about like some of my, like IRL friends still. The fact, the fact, the fact, the

[Tristan]

fact, the fact, the fact, the fact.

[Tristana]

They both short circuited so badly. I actually. I forgot how much I interacted with vegan gains. I had so many. So I had a lot of interactions with Vegan Gates over the years. He's. He still makes videos. I guess he's still around.

[Tristan]

He hopped into the debate that I did with Gnostic Informant and tried to mog Christianity by saying that his God is chrom. Like Conan. Yeah, it was so stupid.

[Tristana]

I mean, it's been. This was almost 10 years ago. It was a 28. 18 or 7. Well, years.

[Jay Dyer]

20.

[Tristan]

I think it was 2018.

[Tristana]

18.

[Tristan]

2018. Yeah.

[Tristana]

So, yeah, we're at eight years and he's still got a narcissistic wound from it.

[Tristan]

Sleeping, gay sleep. Exceeping zebra. $5. Patriarch Carol, how would you respond to reports of corruption? You're asking me if I was Patriarch Carol, how would I respond? I don't understand the question. How do you feel about blessing a weapon during a war? I mean, Orthodox Church has always blessed the soldiers. The weapons chase. $10. I was told by Masons that it's an allegory for fraternal use the way that college scholarships use a society and that thus would induct you through the symbolism. I'm not one. So what is Jabulon? It's. It's a religious. I mean, they're using syncretistic principles to create secret Societies that are so supposedly supra religious and supra supra national. Right. That's why it's an international body organization. So the fact that they liken it to a college fraternity has nothing to do with whether or not it's actually religiously committed in its commit in its positions. And that's what I argued in the debate, I think successfully. So the fact that you're saying, and this is what almost everybody did, right? Like almost everybody who's defended it or argued for it says even the guys that came up at the end of the questions are like how is this any different than joining a corporation that is secular? The whole argument was that it's not secular and that you keep saying it's secular but then you go back to saying here's all these religious positions that you got to have to not be excluded. Proves the point. It's like this argument just flies over everyone's head. And I'm not being mean to you, I don't think that's Chase Geyser. But what about Leo Taxel admitting that he lied about Masons? Well, what does that have to do with any of my arguments? Right. So that's, that's a, it's fallacy of irrelevance. It's not relevant to if somebody lie, if, if somebody lied about Christianity. That has nothing to do with proving Christianity. Right.

[Jay Dyer]

So like

[Tristan]

I prove that this is the fallacy. Fallacy. Right. So if, if Richard Dawkins writes a book and somebody exposes that he made up all these quotes and lied about Christian, that would improve Christianity. Right. So Leo Taxel making up lies about Masons doesn't mean Masonry is therefore good and not still subject to critique. Look up the fallacy. Fallacy chronicles the Freemasons in the space. Sound retarded. Ice Wolf. Thank you. I will eventually convey this to my father. It convey what you meant? Must have been something talking about something earlier. I don't remember what he's talking about. Not a Massad agent says for $10 it sounds like their Masonic supreme being is part of the non binary, non identifiable, non gendered community. Actually in the Masonic text they say that it's Adam Cadmon and it's bisexual. So as you heard me offer as an argument at the very. By the way, they never addressed the Yoda argument at the very beginning that they worship peepees and VJs. Exactly.

[Tristana]

So they, they admit in their own system that Freemasonry is fake gay and Jewish.

[Tristan]

Well if you say, if you want to say that Directing people go to go to the Zohar to figure out who God is is Jewish. That's up to you, Tristan. Consequently, he said coincide. Coincidentally, he says that this is also the VIN number to a 2011 Explorer. The MMIWG2S job LBGTQIA community TENGU25 if you could sit down for a couple hours to talk to anybody from history that isn't Jesus, who would you pick? I don't know. Tristan, after we die, how's that energetic distinction?

[Tristana]

I think that's just a death threat.

[Tristan]

No, it's not. It's okay, Candace. I know you think everything's a threat against you suddenly, but it's the gangstalkers. Exactly. The gangster are already there. I've sent the hitman. And then Tristan's gonna. I'm gonna regret it. And then I'm gonna wish that I could talk to Tristan afterwards.

[Tristana]

But the. The top. I'm the top diva. I'm the top ti. I'm the top target targeted individual diva it and they're after me.

[Tristan]

Climbing to the top requires ruthlessness. And if I'm going to be the top eda sometimes, sometimes, you know, something might happen to the competition. I. I don't know. That's a joke. By the way. Before people try to pull the stream energetic distinction. $10. How do we get our family to understand that Masonry is satanic?

[Jay Dyer]

Is it?

[Tristan]

And it's a different altar than gods? I mean, do you not think that I mean the debate. Debate not show that. I mean if you don't believe that, if you can't see the relativism is the satanic point, then your. Your family's just going to be normies like every other normie because all the normies are all relativist. That's your truth, man. What's true for you is true for you.

[Tristana]

Dude.

[Tristan]

That's like basic normie right there. And the Masons are basically saying that throughout the debate. So alter void. $5. What are you saying? If the cops say I'm not driving drunk, but my actions are that I was driving drunk. I guess you're talking about the Masons. Like if they're saying I'm not denying Christ by joining a society that denies Christ because I still believe in Christ.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Tristan]

Icon. I'm at $10. John says anyone denies the deed of Christ is Antichrist. Exactly. As we say against the Muslims. So is it fair to say that Masonry is Antichrist? Yes, exactly. Just like Islam. Sergius, $5. Damn ecumenism is pressing in from every angle. Kind of terrifying what you start noticing and recognizing. Yeah, it's the same position as Ruslan, Redeemed, Zoomer, Trent Horn. Horn. All the ecumenists, the Freemasons, they have the same position. Nobody can say what Christianity is, although they can say what masonry is. If you saw. We saw that pointed out in the debate, they can tell you who's a regular and regular Lodge, but Chase couldn't tell you who is and isn't a Christian in terms of historical bodies. I thought that was absurd in the debate. D Joel's $5 a day. It's interesting that you aren't tagged on that video. And there's a bunch of edits. Yeah. I don't know why DJ did that. Maybe he. He may be working with Chase. Chase moved to Nashville, so they might have work that they're doing together. I don't think he was. I mean, I didn't notice him cutting out any substantial debate points. So I'm not accusing DJ of doing anything in that regard because that was everything that I remember from the debate. So they didn't edit anything out of the bay, except that they just. Even the audio levels so that we weren't getting, like, really loud. Loud. And you didn't hear the audience laughing when I was making fun of them at several points. But I kind of wish they'd kept that in illuminati checkboard flooring. $20. Doing a historic historiography. The OSS and the CA have you covered. Donovan by the CA Thomas Troy. It's very dry compared to the old boys, but good stuff. I don't have. I have a couple biographies of wa. Bill Donovan. I have his own autobiography, but I don't have that.

[Tristana]

No, that's a big project. I mean, a historiography. Like, if it's going to be exhaustive, it's. That's got to be like.

[Tristan]

I mean. Yeah.

[Tristana]

Like, gna. Take forever.

[Tristan]

I want to write a book on geopolitics and espionage, but the problem is that it would just be so difficult to. To figure out how to do it, and it would be so much work.

[Tristana]

And then.

[Tristan]

Then you have to think, will anybody even buy this? I don't even know that they would.

[Tristana]

You have to. You have to pick. Pick, you know, think of, like, one chapter you would do in that book, and that's a book.

[Tristan]

Yeah, I might have to, like. I might have to, like, narrow it down to, like, espionage and the church. You know what I mean? Something like that. Or religion.

[Tristana]

Yeah, that's. That's the thing. If you do a broad. A broad take on it. It's. It's impossible. It's going to end up being like a, you know, three 1,000 page volumes or something.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it'd be like a life's work.

[Tristana]

A complete historiography on osscia. One of the most documented.

[Tristan]

Yeah.

[Tristana]

And written about things in. In 20th century history.

[Tristan]

Right, Exactly.

[Tristana]

A lot of material.

[Tristan]

I remember the. My French Revolution professor when I was in undergrad. The French Revolution professor, he said that no event. And I think he wanted to say, because it's. It's so long since the French Revolution, I think. And this was way after the big nine event. I think he said that no event. Even World War II. That like, maybe it was World War II and French Revolution. Like you could never read all the books that have been written on those two. Two events. So.

[Tristana]

Yeah, that's. That tracks. That makes sense.

[Tristan]

Death takes. I'm going to the shape store. Do you need anything? La Marconi, $5. What is your beef with Sam Shamoon? You can go watch all the old live streams where we lay out what the problems were with Samshimun. I'm not gonna rehearse all that right now, jv. Jay, you should do more with John Kiriaki. The two of you complimented each other very well. Thank you. Lamarconi says for $5, can you explain Orthodox stance on faith and works? I'm having a hard time explaining it and defending it in O.C. you over there in Orange county, doctor. I don't know if he means Orange county or the Orthodox church, but get something like, you know, rock and sand Father Josiah, or look up. Guys, we got a lot of old podcasts and videos on, you know, justification by faith alone and the problems with that. So I would say you gotta. You gotta check out those old live streams. I'm not trying to be rude, but shout out to AC we haven't seen AC In a good. In a. In a hot minute. It's been a hot minute, but AC Is back in the chat. Long time supporter, super chatter. AC Says this is a my hit job for Captain Tazarak. Oh, so we done lost AC From Orthodox to the bhi. He's now a black Hebrew Israelite as a white man. Don't make me make sense of it because it ain't gonna make sense. Mad Finland, $11. In regard to Ruslan and his comment about J. J's lovely. Which Jay fails to realize that the 5L lovelies language are like the didy to evangelicals. Oh, I didn't even know this is a thing amongst evangelicals. I didn't really. I mean, I know they're gay as hell, but, like, I don't even know what that is. They literally handed out copies of the Love Language at my old church of Christ. Jay, put some respect on Gary Chapman. Okay, so this is an evangelical, like, way to make yourself more gay. Okay, I got it.

[Tristana]

I think that's actually a Marvin Gaye album, the Love Language.

[Tristan]

Okay, but it's starting to make more sense now that this is, like, a popular evangelical thing, which I didn't. I mean, I haven't been in the world of evangelicalism since 1999, so. But maybe I don't know when this came out. Let's see when it come out. Okay, so this is 90s. Oh, look, they got that Memphis. What's that? Horrible or dystopian tech art style corporate Memphis. Oh, my gosh. If I see corporate Memphis and faceless black and white people together. Yeah, that's perfect for the Ruslan. Ruslan. Ruslan's whole rhythm. Church should be decked out in icons with Ruslan Saints in corporate Memphis. That would be perfect for him. Triple 7.

[Tristana]

You can open up a, you know, branch in. In New York. It could be the rza. The RZA church.

[Tristan]

Excuse me. Excuse me. Tristan. Tristan. I think you mean a franchise of the church.

[Tristana]

Yeah, parishes are franchises.

[Tristan]

Exactly. Triple dollar five. When will we get Gnostic Pope with Jay Dyer? Who's Gnostic Pope? He is an ex Muslim who became Orthodox catechumen. Okay, well, I'm not familiar with him him, but that's. He sounds like he's making the right moves. All right, hold on. We got to check the super chats over here on YouTube because those are separate. I always, always miss some of these.

[Jay Dyer]

So

[Tristan]

TJ's takes $5. I can't see if you made a comment. AC says for $5. This really shows the trajectory of the Middle Ages in Protestantism to Masonry to relativism and liberalism. That's actually a good point. Right. You kind of have these phases historically in the west, ideologically speaking, of the movement from, you know, medieval Papism to Enlightenment, Protestantism and Enlightenment. And then you get Masonry, and then you get atheism. Right. And it's exactly what Saint Gergo Paloma said the trajectory would be of the West. Great comment there, AC. To Thee We Sing gave out a bunch of memberships. Appreciate that, man. I appreciate the generosity tonight. I think I got all the super chats there, making sure. Guys, remember, head on to chalk.com. remember to subscribe to our bro a Tristana. Tristan is linked in the show description the Tristan Haggard YouTube channel. Be sure to subscribe to me on X and everywhere else. D Joel says we're talking $10. It would have been funny as hell if you could have dropped the Muslim painting from the Masonic museum when the ball guy said that they would say hell no to Muslim members. That's not true, though. They have Muslim members. You can. I mean, Chase admitted that what they were saying was they don't believe they personally are worshiping the same God as Islam, but they can be in the society with Muslims because they're affirming the same quote, generic God personally. So you notice how silly that is. Oh, Rachel Wilson says for $20 dollars J1 over two Freemasons. The. The freemason homo is an easy dub. Rachel says give Jay your money. All you pay piggies o pay piggy pro zilch. Coming in clutch for 20 memberships. He gifted 20 memberships. Thank you so much, Zel. Appreciate that. Appreciate that. Alan Yee says stop that freemason cap pay Masons is where it's at. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Ain't no. I have no more of this freemason. I'm talking about getting paid Mason over here. Again. We got people talking about Tristan mogging me in terms of diva status. I'm just gonna have a rage quit. I'm gonna have a rage quit. All right, I'm sorry. We got Walter. I've been waiting on. Yeah, I'm sorry. I forgot to go to the people in the. In the queue here. What's up, dog? Hey, good to hear you guys again.

[Tristana]

I just. I'm just here. It's like quite early. I'm from Germany, by the way. I guess I. I wanted to tell you. I wanted to start Twitter spaces myself. Trying to do the social media thing. Got the blue check mark and all that. I'm. I'm wondering, like, I need some guests like. And I'd be very glad if, like you or Tristan or both. I. Ideally, like, we could set up some cool Twitter spaces. I would like to interview you guys.

[Tristan]

Well, yeah, hit him up. Hit me up in the. The messages and I'll.

[Tristana]

Yeah, Twitter messages. Yeah.

[Tristan]

Yeah, I appreciate that. Okay. I appreciate it, man. Yeah, we'll take a look at that and we'll figure out a time when we can do something.

[Jay Dyer]

Culper.

[Tristan]

What's up?

[Tristana]

My handler. So he. He speaks for me. He's. He has to.

[Tristan]

And I. I have to ask, right? I asked Kuryaku what to say. And Kiriaki asked Putin what to say. So it has to come down the chain of hierarchy properly. We have to do it in the right order. TJ says for $5. P. E. Grinder. I think he's talking about Brian Shapiro. I don't think. When I mentioned. When I started laughing, when I missed. When I was talking to John Kuryaku and I was thinking about. About Peaky Blinders, and I said Peaky Grinders, and I was thinking of Brian Shapiro, and I don't think John Kaku. He probably just thought I was talking about the sandwich, the grinder. Cul Pepper. What's up? C. Pepper on mute.

[Culpepper]

Hey, can you hear me? Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[Tristan]

What's up, man?

[Culpepper]

You said C. Pepper. You. You understand the history of that, right?

[Tristan]

No.

[Culpepper]

Culpepper was the name that Washington gave Culper before he named him Culver.

[Tristan]

Okay, well, I can't see. I got Boomeraz. I'm sorry.

[Culpepper]

Yeah, no, I'm a Boomer too, dude. Don't worry, Tristan. I'm a fan of you. I just followed you.

[Tristan]

All right, I'm immediately gonna mute this guy because we're getting too many. This is not. I did not expect it go. To go this way. There's too many. Tristana,

[Culpepper]

my biggest thing. I called before. You remember I told you my mom, like, married a bunch of people and had a bunch of husbands or whatever? I called, like, months ago.

[Tristan]

Me or him or. Who you talking about?

[Culpepper]

I called you.

[Tristan]

I called you, and your mama had a bunch of husbands.

[Ryan]

Yeah, dude.

[Tristana]

He said he insulted you, and he said your mom has had a lot of husband.

[Tristan]

This. This ain't your springer, son. This ain't Oprah.

[Culpepper]

But what I was trying to say, one of the husbands had a Masonic Bible. Yeah, dog. So I love the Bible. My grandmama, she gave me a King James. I read it through and through. You remember the King James that had, like, the maps in the back?

[Tristan]

Yes.

[Culpepper]

Yeah. You would go through the maps. You're like, oh, this is the old Israel.

[Tristan]

And.

[Culpepper]

And here we go. Yeah, yeah. If you go back in the back of a Masonic Bible, it's like a bunch of Egyptian hieroglyphics.

[Tristan]

Oh, I didn't know that, dude.

[Culpepper]

I opened up the Masonic Bible. It was like the eye of Horus, a bunch of Egyptian hieroglyphics, and I was just like, mama, what the is this?

[Tristan]

Yep. Well, I'm not. Yeah, I'm not surprised, because I have seen. Appreciate that, Culper. I have seen. Seen Masonic Bibles. You know the big, big ones that

[Jay Dyer]

they have the lot.

[Tristan]

I've just never spent a lot of time flipping through them. So I'm not surprised that there's you know like Egypt, you know, esoteric Egyptian gibberish in the back. But that's, that's fascinating. Connive what's accent by the.

[Tristana]

By the way you got the max in the back.

[Tristan]

Exactly right.

[Tristana]

I'm gonna make an edit like a cringe core edit song of some of the same thing. Some of the things he just said. I love how he talks.

[Tristan]

By the way your mom with anybody right now?

[Tristana]

You know that nickname of your mom is the Eye of Horus.

[Tristan]

Oh, Con. Ive convey Con. What's up man?

[Discerning Catholic]

Yes, I'm here now. My mic wasn't working earlier yo but I just had a question about and just for context, I told you I was a Catholic before and I'm currently discerning between the Catholic Church and Eastern Orthodoxy. And I've been writing an evangelical letter to someone that I know that's a non practicing Catholic and is believing in atheism. And I thought it was going to be easy. Like an easy letter.

[Tristana]

Right.

[Discerning Catholic]

Oh, I'm just gonna list the five arguments from Aquinas. And while I was writing the letter I found a video by you rejecting the first argument of motion. And I found an argument against natural theology by Father and I don't know how to pronounce his name. D. Ananus Ananias.

[Tristan]

He was in here a minute ago.

[Discerning Catholic]

Ananias. Yeah, I blanked. But yeah. And that was based on like epistemology but I don't have a very good understanding of epistemology yet because I haven't studied it. So my question to you is, if you were in my situation, how would you create the most coherent argument for the existence of God if you reject natural theology and correct me if I'm wrong on your position and what argument would be the most logically valid while also being plausible to a heathen?

[Tristan]

That's going to be really difficult to convey in a letter to an atheist. I mean I'm not telling you not to do it, but you know we got a lot of videos kind of explaining tag. So I'll go, I would say go check out any of the tag explanation videos or Father Deacon, Dr. Ananias on his channel. He has a whole playlist on tag and his channel is Patristic Faith Case Chase H. Oh, this is getting a little too haggardly. I mean we got too much haggard energy in here. It's just kind of SAP in the room. So.

[Tristana]

Yeah, you can. You can boot Tristan. Let's see. He's done.

[Tristan]

Okay, yeah, you can remove him.

[Tristana]

Tristan, are you there? Hello?

[Tristan]

I think he's not going to talk to you.

[Tristana]

No, he's a. Tuning out the sound of his voice. Who's this? This is your former brother. The family asked me to send you a message because of your good performance tonight. We'd like to invite you back to. Stop, stop, stop. Mute him. Mute him, please. Mute him. Sorry, this is. This is not your cross exam time. The family would like to offer you a place back at the table. Okay, we'll call you by your name. We know you got mad calling you the other son, but we'd like to offer you a chance back at the table.

[Tristan]

See, we got reconciliation happening right here.

[Tristana]

Do you accept the terms? Somebody just tell me when he's done talking. I'll come back.

[Tristan]

Okay?

[Tristana]

All right, well, you know what? We're proud of you. Parents said that they'd like to soon say they love you, so that's all I want.

[Tristan]

This has to do with people transition. This has to do with detransitioning and where people are at their journey. And, you know, that's kind of What's.

[Tristana]

That's not funny.

[Tristan]

I know that's not funny. I'm not making a joke.

[Tristana]

That's not a funny joke, bro. All right, no apology. All right, well, I'm headed out. That's it.

[Chase]

That's all I.

[Tristan]

Well, that's all you can do. That's all you can do, Chase. Good luck with him. Tristan says get on with Gnostic Pope. Okay, yeah, we'll see Gnostic Pope. He says triple. Triple. Says he has 386 on tickets.

[Tristana]

Tick tock.

[Tristan]

I'll have to just see who he is. I'm not. Just not familiar with him, but I appreciate the recommendation. All right. Heather Heath. What's up? Heath? Heath. Thought I said Heather Heath. Guys, I'm gonna split the super chats with Tristan. Last chance to also support Tristana. Heath. What's up, man? Last chance. All right, you're done. Goodbye.

[Tristana]

For the record, Jay, just want to clear things up with some of the slander that you. You levied at me earlier, saying that it was my tech problem. I've done two separate tests and my connection was 100% fine. So I think there was something with. With. What was it called?

[Tristan]

Streamyard. It could. No collab cam on obs, but, I mean, I don't. Look, I had no problems with Kaku So I don't know dictus.

[Tristana]

What's up Jay? How you doing?

[Tristan]

Good. What's up?

[Guest Speaker]

I sent the super chat about the. The CIA historiography. I have an interesting passage here if you. You want to hear it?

[Ryan]

Sure.

[Guest Speaker]

You're familiar with Intrepid? The Montgomery, right?

[Tristan]

William Stevenson and William Stevenson, Intrepid.

[Tristana]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Guest Speaker]

There's a quote here. So this is from Donovan the CIA by Thomas Troy, which is a semi official CIA history. It was written for incoming CIA agents to know the history of the foundation. And he says here in the preface to the second printing about the book A Man called Intrepid. He says the story, an impressive and fascinating one, has never been told. However, on the basis of publicly available primary sources and consequently many claims or details remain undocumented. Two of these need mentioned here. The first is the marble quotation attributed to the offer Stevenson Donovan. Detailing the time, place and subject of the conversation of the first meeting of Donovan Intrepid. So basically he's saying that there's evidence that Donovan and and Trevor knew each other by the common connection to Vincent Aster and fdr.

[Tristan]

Yeah, that. I mean that comes up in old boys like they talk about. I mean Donovan was a Rockefeller representation representative and Donovan had an office at Rockefeller Plaza from, from the Rockefellers. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. William Stevenson had an office at Rockefeller Plaza from the Rockefellers and Donovan was a work for the Rockefeller foundation before he would did all that stuff.

[Guest Speaker]

Yeah, I picked up Hersh on your recommendation. It's been great to have for the project.

[Tristan]

Yeah, we are super extensive.

[Guest Speaker]

I'm limited to like seven pages.

[Tristan]

Right.

[Tristana]

But uh.