Pt 2 Pt 1 HEATED DEBATES! Xian Zlonism, Unitarian, Energies, Carl Jung, Comedy Movies, BEST/WORST

Summary

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Jay'sAnalysis with Jay Dyer

Episode: Pt 2 Pt 1 HEATED DEBATES! Xian Zionism, Unitarian, Energies, Carl Jung, Comedy Movies, Best/Worst
Date: March 31, 2026

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Overview of the Episode

In this episode, Jay Dyer hosts a lively, freewheeling call-in session touching on theology, philosophy, church history, debate culture, and contemporary religious and political controversies. Ranging from heated apologetics to comedic banter, the episode features Dyer fielding questions and objections from a diverse group of callers—catechumens, ex-Muslims, Protestants, and internet debate fans. Discussions revolve around the historicity of Adam, Christian Zionism, the energies/essence distinction in Orthodoxy, the problem of error in church tradition, Carl Jung’s philosophy, and much more—with Jay’s trademark directness and biting humor throughout.

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Key Topics & Discussions

1. Origins, Adam, and Death Before the Fall

• Topic: Historic Adam, Evolution, and Romans 8
• Caller raises William Lane Craig’s perspective on Adam existing "hundreds of thousands of years ago."
• Jay’s rebuttal: Such views contradict Genesis and Romans 8, which teach death enters with Adam’s sin—undermining evolutionary claims of pre-Adamic death.
  • Quote (Jay): "Romans 8 is very explicit that death entered through Adam's sin, spiritual and physical death." (02:05)
• Emphasizes Ecumenical Council condemnations of death before the Fall.

2. The Essence-Energies Distinction and Western Deism

• Topic: Gregory Palamas, Thomism, and Knowing God
• Jay explains Palamas’ argument against Thomist theology which claims we interact only with God’s created effects, potentially leading to deism or atheism.
  • Quote (Jay): "If you're only ever interacting in this life with created effects, then you're never knowing or directly seeing or perceiving the thing behind the effects. And so why would you think there's anything back there? That's exactly what happened." (03:32)
  • Palamas prophetically predicted Western theology would end in deism/atheism.
• Contrasts Orthodox direct participation with God (energies) with the Western approach.

3. Christian Zionism and Debate Culture

• Topic: Dispensationalism, Christian Zionism, Reluctance to Debate
• Callers express frustration with prominent Christian Zionist figures and the lack of serious debate partners.
• Jay’s experience: tried to set up debates with figures like Ridvan and others, but none accepted.
  • Quote (Jay): "I've been hammering Christian Zionism and dispensationalism for years... None of them will debate." (05:34)
• Comments on debate style, the unwillingness of public figures like Trent Horn to debate, and the current lack of worthy opponents.
  • Quote (Jay): "There's nobody left. Like, there's no more final bosses." (84:16)

4. Orthodoxy versus Other Christian Traditions

• Topic: Sola Scriptura, Visible/Invisible Church, Canon Issues, Calendar Controversies
• Book recommendations for Protestants questioning Sola Scriptura, but Jay notes no single book refutes "invisible church" doctrine—it’s more a systems issue.
  • Quote (Jay): "It might be better to just get them to question Sola Scriptura... Cut to the heart of the matter." (07:21)
• Directs multiple questions on valid sacraments, church calendars, and canons to Fr. John Whiteford’s abundant resources.
• Dismisses concerns over inter-Orthodox jurisdictional disputes for new converts, recommending trying all local churches first.

5. Authenticity, Corruption, Tradition, and Early Christianity

• Topic: Manuscript Errors, Reliability of the OT, Authority of Tradition
• Responding to an ex-Muslim, Jay affirms minor scribal errors exist in copies, but the Church—and not the text itself—is the locus of authority.
  • Quote (Jay): "We're not worshiping a book; we trust that the church guided and preserved the tradition in general." (23:16)
• Handles concerns about post-Temple rabbinic Judaism and Christian transmission—explaining valid and invalid tradition and the apostolic authority in determining legitimacy.
• Importance of liturgy/oral tradition: "For the Orthodox church, the church and the worship and the community are prior to the scriptures. They existed before the scriptures." (26:52)

6. Rational Arguments for God and Problems with Classical Philosophy

• Topic: Transcendental Argument, Platonism, Reason vs. Instinct
• Jay gives a concise breakdown of the TAG (Transcendental Argument for God) and the problem with claiming "everything has a cause": it’s an unjustified assumption.
  • Quote (Jay): "Most classical argumentation just operates on sort of assumption... I don't know how you would demonstrate that everything has a cause." (31:50)
• Explains difference between animal instinct and human reason.

7. Refuting Payment Model of Atonement & Explaining Orthodox Salvation (Theosis)

• Topic: What did Jesus’ death accomplish? Orthodox view of salvation.
• Elaborates Orthodox understanding—not penal substitution or debt payment, but Christ breaking death’s covenant and enabling human deification.
  • Quote (Jay): "When Adam and Eve rebelled, they basically made a covenant with Satan... What Christ did on the cross was not to pay off some ... debt ... but to overcome that power by going into Hades." (38:04)
• Participating in Eucharist enables overcoming of the passions and union with Christ.

8. Jung, Survivalism, and Modern Psychology

• Topic: Carl Jung’s philosophy, roots in Kant, Gnosticism & Platonism
• Caller presents Jung’s idea that survival of proto-man confers validity to philosophical ideas, and Jay critiques this as a non sequitur.
  • Quote (Jay): "Why are we supposed to think that something is valid because we survived?" (46:42)
• Jung as inheritor of Kant’s turn to psychology/"structure of the mind," and essentially a modern Gnostic/Platonist.
  • Quote (Jay): "He says basically it's no different than ancient Gnosticism. We're just doing what the ancient Gnostics were doing." (50:02)

9. Debates, Prestige, and Internet Infotainment

• Topic: Why many won’t debate Jay; debate culture; jokes about being "Floyd Mayweather" of internet debates
  • Quote (Jay): "I'm not being a douchebag. I'm just being honest. There's not even any of them that were—I mean, maybe the—I don't even know what the closest one would be..." (83:15)
• On only choosing debates on topics he can win, and the current low quality of many potential opponents.
  • Quote (Jay): "There's nobody left ... basically we're like Floyd Mayweather over here." (86:00)

10. Hermeneutics, Church History, and The Quadriga

• Topic: How Orthodoxy interprets scripture; primitive church reliability
• Jay explains the fourfold sense (quadriga) found in both Eastern and Western Christian tradition.
  • Quote (Jay): "There’s a fourfold sense of Scripture ... this is mentioned by Saint Maximus, and it becomes again normative by the—I'd say, 8th or 9th century." (56:52)
• Early church letters were corrective not because early Christianity was in error, but because local churches are fallible unlike the universal church.

11. Sin, Degrees of Evil, and Orthodox Teaching

• Topic: Are all sins equal?
• Jay states the Orthodox view: while all have sinned, not all sins are equal, referencing biblical passages.
  • Quote (Jay): "No, I don't think all sins are equal. I think that would be absurd...Jesus says the worst sin is to harm children." (92:25)

12. Call-In Banter, Comedy, and Podcast Culture

• Jay weaves humor and playful sarcasm (particularly regarding miscommunications—"error" vs. "air," debate tropes, and commentaries on "conservative feminists").
• Extended recap of Rachel’s debate with a "conservative" feminist that exposed the vacuity of many modern right-wing talking points.
  • Quote (Rachel): "She kept asserting that her position was logical ... at the end ... she like, laughed, she was like, 'there's no such thing as laws of logic'." (105:00)
• Comments on "normies," cultural debates, and why continuing to tackle common—but poorly formed—positions is valuable for mainstream audiences.

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Notable Quotes & Moments

| Timestamp | Speaker | Quote / Context | |-----------|----------------|-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------| | 02:05 | Jay Dyer | "Romans 8 is very explicit that death entered through Adam's sin, spiritual and physical death." | | 03:32 | Jay Dyer | "If you're only ever interacting in this life with created effects, then you're never knowing ... the thing behind the effects." | | 07:21 | Jay Dyer | "It might be better to just get them to question Sola Scriptura...cut to the heart of the matter." | | 23:16 | Jay Dyer | "We're not worshiping a book; we trust that the church guided and preserved the tradition in general." | | 26:52 | Jay Dyer | "For the Orthodox church... the worship and the community are prior to the scriptures. They existed before the scriptures."| | 31:50 | Jay Dyer | "I don't know how you would demonstrate that everything has a cause. I mean, if you're a Christian, God doesn't have a cause."| | 38:04 | Jay Dyer | "When Adam and Eve rebelled, they basically made a covenant with Satan ... what Christ did on the cross was ... to overcome that power by going into Hades."| | 46:42 | Jay Dyer | "Why are we supposed to think that something is valid because we survived?" | | 50:02 | Jay Dyer | "[Jung] says basically it's no different than ancient Gnosticism. We're just doing what the ancient Gnostics were doing."| | 56:52 | Jay Dyer | "...came up with what's called the quadriga or the four senses of Scripture. This is mentioned by Saint Maximus..."| | 92:25 | Jay Dyer | "No, I don't think all sins are equal. I think that would be absurd... Jesus says the worst sin is to harm children, so clearly some sins are worse than other sins."| | 105:00 | Rachel | "[She] kept asserting that her position was logical. ... at the end, ... she like, laughed. She was like, 'there's no such thing as laws of logic.' "| | 83:15 | Jay Dyer | "There's not even any of them that were—I mean, maybe the... I don't even know what the closest one would be..." |

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• Historic Adam and Evolution: 01:00–02:22
• Essence/Energies & Western Theology: 02:22–04:16
• Christian Zionism & Debate Frustrations: 05:08–06:47, 14:11–15:32, 83:08–86:00
• Sola Scriptura, Invisible Church: 07:05–07:21
• Tradition, Textual Corruption, Authority: 22:31–26:52
• Transcendental Argument, Causality: 30:12–32:36, 61:03–62:45
• Atonement & Orthodox Theosis: 36:50–40:48
• Jung, Survival, Kant, Gnosticism: 45:22–52:41
• Hermeneutics, Quadriga: 56:37–59:58
• Sin Not All Equal: 91:08–92:28
• Rachel’s Debate Debrief (Conservative Feminism): 104:08–112:54

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Final Thoughts

• Jay emphasizes epistemological humility, Orthodox tradition, the importance of community over mere text, and the dangers of poorly-grounded theological and philosophical assumptions.
• Humor, direct confrontation, and a willingness to admit limits ("I don’t know") color the entire episode, providing both information and entertainment.
• Rachel’s call-in and debrief epitomize the episode’s tone: unsparing, witty, and focused on exposing intellectual laziness, whether in theology, politics, or debate.
• Jay’s “infotainment” style both deflates self-importance and keeps rigorous religious and philosophical discussion accessible to a broad audience.

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For listeners:
This episode is a representative slice of Jay Dyer’s unique blend: Orthodox apologetics, philosophical rigor, cultural critique, and relentless comedic trolling—all in a densely-packed call-in format that’s as informative as it is entertaining.

Transcript

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller/Questioner]

Oracle, Adam being born, like hundreds of thousands of years ago, what is your perspective on that? How do you think that's realistic?

[Jay Dyer]

I think it's also. He's a Napoleon Arian heretic, openly so I wouldn't. I don't listen to William Lane Craig.

[Caller/Questioner]

What do you think is wrong with that perspective? Do you think it contradicts Genesis? Because he does make the case that there are like, lineages, like other family trees in the Bible that leave out generations.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but none of that would. Yeah, but that wouldn't grant you hundreds of thousands of years. And it also messes up the fact that in Romans 8, Paul says that death comes from Adam and Eve's sin. So in order to have an evolutionary perspective, you have to have death being in some way natural. And prior to the fall, which is condemned by the Six Ecumenical Council,

[Caller/Questioner]

is there like a. Any biblical Romans 8 death not being possible before the fall?

[Jay Dyer]

Romans 8. Romans 8 is very explicit that death entered through Adam's sin, spiritual and physical death. Bronze Age, what's up? Thank you for the question. Bronze age, what's up, A.J.

[Caller/Questioner]

i appreciate everything you're doing. Hey, a couple years ago I was listening to you and you mentioned the energies, essence, distinction. And if it was not followed the way Palomas. St. Gregory of Palomas argued that it would lead to atheism.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, he argues that how.

[Caller/Questioner]

That was how that link was made.

[Jay Dyer]

He argues that because he says that it cuts God off from direct interaction with the creatures. So if you don't believe that, you're directly Interacting with God, and then you're only interacting with created effects. The next logical step within that Thomistic scheme would be that, well, we don't know what's behind the created effects. And that's exactly what led to deism in the West.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay,

[Jay Dyer]

so in Thomas, you only know God through created effects. You don't know God directly ever, period. Until the eschaton.

[Caller/Questioner]

I see, I see. Okay, so it's like. It's like basically a cut off.

[Jay Dyer]

And then, yes, you're.

[Caller/Questioner]

You're floating in space. And then that's nothing to believe in after that.

[Jay Dyer]

No, in this life, all that you know of God is the created effects of God. So you're never interacting with the uncreated reality of God. That's the Thomistic teaching. And Paloma says, well, then if you're only ever interacting in this life with created effects, then you're never knowing or directly seeing or perceiving the thing behind the effects. And so why would you think that there is anything back there? That's exactly what happened. So it's a leap. It's a leap to say, well, we know it's the first cause. Why?

[Caller/Questioner]

What?

[Jay Dyer]

Who is that? What is that?

[Caller/Questioner]

Gotcha. Gotcha. Okay, cool, cool. I've been thinking about that ever since you said that years ago. That.

[Jay Dyer]

I heard that.

[Caller/Questioner]

And that's.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I appreciate that. Well, yeah, that's Paloma's argument. And he was correct. He prophetically predicted that Western theology would end in atheism and deism. That's exactly what happened. Because all you know of God is created effects. Well, if it's all the same created effects, I don't know if the created effects that are hitting me are love or mercy or justice or whatever. X lockstep. $10 says thank you. Thank you, Marco. $20. Thank you for your ministry. I don't have a ministry. I'm not a preacher. This is infotainment. But thank you. You help me navigate to orthodoxy. Appreciate that. I'm not a Protestant minister. In fact, I despise when people think that they have ministries. As I'm. I brother, I have an online ministry. Remy, what's up, man?

[Caller/Questioner]

Yo, Jay, can you hear me? Hey, man. I just want to say I appreciate everything you do. You know, talking about dispensationalism. Would you debate Ridvan?

[Jay Dyer]

We already tried to set that up and he didn't want to do it.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay. I think. I think this is the. One of the most important issues that we face right now. Especially we have people like Lindsay Graham, Ted Cruz, Pushing this.

[Jay Dyer]

So I think, I mean, I've been hammering Christian Zionism and dispensationalism for years now. I've been hammering it non stop for years. And there are, there are none of the people from that sphere that will actually come to bait. So I've tried and tried and tried. None of them will debate. Larry, what's up? And no, I'm. I've moved on from Redvon. It's not worth it.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yo, what up, Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[Caller/Questioner]

I had a few questions. I might be everywhere, but I am a catechumen in the Orthodox. I'm coming from Protestantism and I'm curious about a few things. So from what I understand, the Father is the one God and then Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God based on predication. Is that true? Okay, and then another thing, I'm gonna be jumping. I have so many questions. It's. It's been a lot. But I've been curious about the beef between the Greek and the Russian patriarchate. And I'm curious what your take is on that.

[Jay Dyer]

I've heard you can go listen to the. I mean, bro, we've already done like tons of podcasts with Father John Whiteford with Jim Jotras. I'm not trying to be rude, it's just like, you can go listen to those.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, you said Jim who?

[Jay Dyer]

Jim Jotras. J A T R A S. I've probably done five podcasts with him on that.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay, yeah, I'll give him a listen. And then I had a few questions about books that I'm really looking to get into.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure.

[Caller/Questioner]

Because my whole family is Protestant and I really want to point them to some really good books. I'm wondering if you know about a good book that like refutes the invisible church.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, the problem is that there's not usually specific books for each Protestant hang up. You know what I mean? It's like it kind of flows from the overall theology of, you know, Christology. So, no, I, I don't actually know about one book that just refutes invisible church. But I mean, It might be better to just get them to question Sola scriptura, because even if you get them to question the invisible church, they're just going to keep going back to Sola Scriptura. So, you know, I would get them to look into debates or challenges on Sola Scriptura before I would try to get into arguing ecclesiology with these sort of Protestants. Because even if you try to, even if you get them doubting invisible Church, like, they're still going to be thinking, well, it's still me and my Bible. So I would cut to the heart of the matter there. Truth. What's up, man? Rock and sand, people say is of course a classic on that. What's up, man?

[Rachel]

Hello.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yes, hi.

[Rachel]

I just wanted to know what your thoughts on are on canon 15 of the first and second council,

[Jay Dyer]

Constantinople two or Constant Noble? One

[Rachel]

of Constant Noble. It's. It's basically talking about the breaking communion with a heretical bishop. And what do you think about the old calendar and the new calendar?

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, you're talking about. Yeah, there's a article that's at. I would just go say check out Father John Whiteford's analysis of this. I don't get into that stuff. It's goat. What's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, can you hear me? Jay?

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay. Yeah, sorry about that, man. I got terrible wi fi. But no, I'm a big fan. I'm looking to Orthodoxy and I was talking to a Roman Catholic the other day and he was kind of talking out both sides of his mouth. I was asking him what does it mean for the. The orthodox sacraments to be valid for the Catholics who have recognized them as valid. And I was wondering, as a former Roman Catholic, like, what does that mean? Is it like again?

[Jay Dyer]

So go, go and check out the. Again. Father John Wifert has addressed all of these many, many times over. I'm not trying to be rude to people. It's just like we've done probably 50 responses on this topic. So I, I can't, I just can't repeat the same thing each time. So he has a great discussion of the old calendar. So you could check out Father John Wyford here on this. And he deals with the cannons that she brought up at 861. Constantinople.

[Caller/Questioner]

Foreign.

[Jay Dyer]

And this is a good article here.

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[Jay Dyer]

I don't know why this, the article no longer comes up. This drives me crazy here. The stance anti patristic, the stance of the old calendar zealots is a good article. And. You can look at Father John Wifer's videos on baptism and talks. He's got a million of these. I think this is the one I'm thinking of. Yeah, this is it. It's podcast with David Ar and Father John Whiteford. So. Dan Vicious said for $2 Rachel won on whatever. Yeah, I'm sure she did. I. No doubt about that. Feminists or terrible debaters? Let's talk. God. What's the best comedy movie? Keep cooking, my bipoc brother. The best comedy movie. I mean, I. It's hard to say the best because, you know, there's in my view probably 10 that are really good and it'd be kind of difficult to pick the best out of those. Recently I liked Beverly Loughlin. I thought that was really funny. If you like that sort of Napoleon Dynamite style of humor. I thought this was really funny. And depends on if you mean comedy movies or TV shows. I think Jamie Kennedy Experiment is one of the funniest TV shows of all time. Sam Hyde show is one of the best. I write for that one. So there you go, there's the best one. Goose, what's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, Jay, can you hear me? I just want to come in here and I guess make a point slash question. It's kind of speculative, but obviously you can't know people's minds. But I guess I get kind of frustrated here recently just seeing all the people who keep declining to debate you. Especially people like Trent.

[Jay Dyer]

Sorry, I didn't say anything.

[Caller/Questioner]

Especially people like Trent Horn and things like that when they like to get on here and Virtue Signal.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Caller/Questioner]

About big bad person you are and whatnot. But I've kind of come to the conclusion just I've been watching you for a few years now. I really just don't think they can honestly defend their positions.

[Jay Dyer]

No, that's exactly what it is. Yeah, of course. Yeah. I think people that have been looking and watching for a while, they figure that out.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, yeah. Because in the beginning, I remember when I first found you, you're pretty much what got me into orthodoxy. And in the beginning I was trying to find one of your debates that I could find that I was like, okay, he didn't do very well in that one. But I really. This is an honest, sincere thing. I really just could not. And so I kind of just, I gave up on it and just started listening to you predominantly and yeah, and that was just pretty much my point. I really think these guys like the virtue signal as a defense exactly what they can't defend.

[Jay Dyer]

I think you're right. I appreciate that Goose, and glad to hear that you see through that because a lot of people, really, I think that's just the low tier people. Like low tier, kind of low information voters. Like that's the only people they're going to fall for. You know, Trent's still mad because he lost that debate on natural theology and he's just a vindictive, effeminate, passive aggressive person. So it's just, it's, it's a victory and a sad at the same time. One like there's no reason why he can't agree to a formal debate because if he's so worried about somebody being mean or saying a naughty word, all he has to do is have a formal debate and a moderator. That's, that's a good moderator to call it out. But as a male feminist, he's never going to do that. So. And then, you know, you'll notice it's pretty much the same with the other people. Dawa, Dawa's dying out. They have pretty much collapsed. They don't have anything near the influence they had two, three, four years ago. Muslim debates are few and far between. They're very, they're straggling, they're struggling. Jake struggled with Nick and Jake's about the last of the so called philosophical Muslims. They're just, they're just failing. So Gavin Orland won't debate. So that pretty much leaves no Protestant debaters out there. So they pretty much given up Wes Huff, he only debated that absolute low hanging fruit idiot Billy Carson. Okay, well, so you want no one who can challenge your position. It just looks super weak and guess what? It's because the positions are super weak. That's why. Eli, what's up? I think Napoleon Dynamite is a classic. I like most Jared Hess movies. They're all pretty funny. Gentleman Broncos is really funny. Don Verdine is really funny. Masterminds is great. These are all my style of humor. So I'm a big fan of all these. I, I mean Nacho Libre is not that funny, but it's still enjoyable. I like it. But what's up? Eli, I'm you, You're not going to talk. All right,

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[Alex Kancheroitz]

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[Jay Dyer]

And then, Hayden, John says for $5, what's your opinion on the Contours of Christian Philosophy series? I think that's the one I used in my philosophy course, so I like them. What's up, man? Milan, Dude, I can't hear you, man.

[Caller/Questioner]

And I just point.

[Jay Dyer]

Can't even hear you, man. Get a, get a good mic. Hayden, what's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hello. Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, I can.

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, Jay. I heard you talking about debates earlier and I just was on a live stream of the Think Institute.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know if you've ever heard

[Caller/Questioner]

of it, but Joel said a case and he's a Protestant thinker, and I asked him on his live stream if he would be open to debating you and he said he was open to it, but I don't know if he was. Yeah, I don't know. What do you think about that?

[Jay Dyer]

Again, I don't know who it is, but first of all, is it a large channel, a large outlet?

[Caller/Questioner]

It's got around almost 10,000 subscribers and

[Jay Dyer]

no, he can call in here. He can call in here if he wants to. He's welcome to. But no, I'm not. I'm not setting up a formal debate with a dude with 10,000 subscribers. But appreciate it, Stallion. What's up,

[Caller/Questioner]

dude?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm, I'm, I'm not trying to be a dick, but like formal debates. I'm only going to debate a formal debate person with somebody at my audience level or larger. So otherwise it's just not. I'm just giving. Doing them a favor by doing it, giving them attention. So I did make some exceptions with the black Hebrew Israelite because he's just so. And also I Knew a lot of people would watch that. So there are sometimes I will make exceptions if I think that it'll get a lot of views. But also I can debate whoever I want to. So it's like I'm not, like I'm not bound to debate what who people say I have to debate in the filth. When are you teaming up with God Logic? I guess that's up to God Logic.

[Caller/Questioner]

I don't know.

[Jay Dyer]

He's never, he hasn't asked me to. To do anything, so. Pepper profit $40 US lay queen. Well, there we go. That's my kind of super chat. Appreciate that. Pepper profit turnox $10. Thank you for converting me to orthodoxy. You're profound. Your wisdom is profound. Keep being uj. Well, thank you. Appreciate that. God gets the credit, of course, but thank you for your kind words. In bed, not in bread. $15. The smooth brain Harambe loving Fed Max Fools do not have a chance against Earth's ashy crew. The crystal cave of coping Screen Mog by Jay once again. Again. I love the Skitso Tier super chats. You guys know those are my favorites. Stallion, what's up, man? Pepper profit again. $10. What's your favorite thing that you ate on this tour? Honestly, dude, I made a mistake of eating a couple salsas that I shouldn't have with my guts and I basically fart Max for like three nights in a row like I've never done before. So, I mean, the salsa was good, but it was also Fart Max. Stallion on mute, man.

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, J. How are you doing?

[Jay Dyer]

Good. What's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

I'm doing good, bro. By the way, it's a pleasure to talk to you finally. You know, I watch a lot of your stuff, you know, but for reference, I'm an ex Muslim, but I just had a few questions about religion. If, if you try to answer.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller/Questioner]

From academic ones or anything. But essentially I've tried, like I've been looking into orthodoxy and like studying as best as I could. Right. And so it's contingent upon like the Old Testament. Right. And so when Pete, like I think you mentioned once or someone, maybe Dr. Bo Brian someone mentioned that it's okay to have the position that the. The Bible, like maybe the Old Testament kind of scribal errors. And that doesn't really. Because I'm coming from like an Islamic background. So the idea, right, is that if there's scribble errors.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. I think, I think most people, except for like independent fundamentalist Baptists, believe and admit there are scribal errors because there's no guarantee that the later manuscript copies would be inerrants. And we don't even. What we believe are inerrant and infallible would be what's called the autographa, and that would be the one that Paul himself wrote. But because we. Because we are not worshiping a book, we trust that the church guided and preserved the tradition in general.

[Caller/Questioner]

I see what you're saying. And so. Okay. And so my question would be, if the Israelites would eventually come to kind of like, play with the religion, where you get, like, more of a rabbitic Judaism than the ancient Judaism, why can we trust their oral transmission on Scripture? Right. I guess. Would it go back to the church, is what you say?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, they're two different things, because we know in the Gospels, for example, in Matthew 23, Jesus appeals to tradition. That's not explicit in the Old Testament. So, for example, he says that the scribes and the Pharisees sit in a seat of Moses, and so they have the authority of Moses. But there's nothing in the Old Testament specifically that talks about a succession or a seat of Moses. So he's appealing to a valid tradition. And even in the Old Testament, you had this idea of Isaiah says, for example, to the law and to the testimony. So the law would be the written text, the testimony would be some form of valid oral tradition. But even in the Old Testament, you began to have scribes and Pharisees attempt to supplant that tradition with human rabbinical traditions. And so we trust, yes, that ultimately, when Jesus established the apostles as a sort of princes of the church, they, when they set the church up, had the authority to decide what elements of the previous oral tradition were legitimate or illegitimate. And so that guided, for example, Paul when he would craft, say, the liturgy that the church has or the other apostles. Right. When they would craft or write a liturgy, it would be guided by Old Testament tradition from the synagogue and from the temple worship. And they would also have, you know, the insight and the divine illumination to know what aspects of rabbinical traditions were invalid. So it's. I would say it's not a black or white thing. So there's good tradition and there's bad tradition. And we would say that the church has the mind of Christ. So it has a tendency, it has the discernment in every generation to know, you know, whether what came in the previous generation is legitimate or not.

[Caller/Questioner]

I see what you're saying. And so. Okay. And so like, kind of pivoting to the New Testament, something similar is, you Know, someone said this to me, you know, because I've been trying to. Again like I'm coming from like the idea where, I mean I don't believe in it, you know, anymore. I did that the injeel and the Torah corrupted or you know, they're not academically reliable, whatever that even means in this, you know, and the Islamic paradigm which you know is hypocritical but whatever. So I'm coming. So yeah, I understand the miracles of Jesus. Right. Like so someone posed me the question, they said in ancient Rome like how would feeding 5,000 or turning water into wine or so on and so forth not be, you know, like written down or recorded and non biblical like just Roman text, you know, like just like in, in terms of just ancient Rome recording like you know, stuff and stuff like that.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean in other words, why wouldn't a Roman historian record that? I mean the Roman historians were. Well, I mean Roman historians were unbelievers. So there's no reason why they would, they would just assume that's a Jewish superstition or some sort of sectarian superstition. I mean they did record, you know, Titus and others record elements of, you know, mentions of the name of Christ. But I mean presumably because of unbelief. Yeah, but I mean, but there's all kinds of other things. I mean that's not the strongest argument either because there's all kinds of things that Roman historians maybe didn't know about or didn't record, which I mean we're not going to make our theology dependent upon whether a Roman historian mentioned or not. But yeah, yeah, but the other thing too, I mean look, I get what you're saying. So one thing that's different between like the Islamic view of the text and what we would say is the attitude is similar to kind of the way that the Jews view the Torah. Right? So like the Jews view the Torah as kind of the central locus of the religion. And so it's a very book oriented religion and for us the book is still relevant but it's not the focus of the religion because Jesus says to the Pharisees in the book of John, he says you follow the scriptures because you think that it's in them that you have eternal life when it is they that bear witness of me. And for the Orthodox church, the church and the worship and the community are prior to the scriptures. They existed before the scriptures. Paul says that the church is the pillar and ground of truth, not the written text. So the written texts are kind of like a letter. It's like the difference between knowing me and reading someone's letter about me. In a sense, you can read the letter and know about me, but if you don't go to church and worship at the liturgy, you don't know Christ directly. That's the difference. And Islam thinks of it kind of like the way Jews think of the Torah as, like, the book is kind of like the preeminent way that we interact with the deity. But for us, that's changed now that the New Testament and Christ has come. Now, the primary way we interact with the deity is in the eucharistic liturgy. And certainly the Scriptures have a place. They have a role, but they're not the focus of the religion.

[Caller/Questioner]

Right. And the thing with the stem, too, is, like, actually, it mirrors, like, repeating Judaism a lot, like, with the defense here, like, the exegesis and the oral tradition. You know.

[Jay Dyer]

Correct.

[Caller/Questioner]

The funny thing about it is it really doesn't matter.

[Jay Dyer]

You know, it does. And I mean, orthodox Christianity has elements of that as well in that we do agree that there is an oral tradition that the, you know, apostles taught, they gave us. Tradition, namely, the liturgy itself is an apostolic tradition that's not in the written books of the Scriptures. But the point rather is that even scribal errors. And I don't want to give the impression that I'm saying the Bible's full of errors, even scribal errors, they're just later copyist errors that are very minor. When you look at the attestation to the New Testament text, there's thousands of New Testament texts with, like, 90 to 95% unanimity amongst them from the first several centuries of the church, which is 50. Far superior to any other historical document.

[Caller/Questioner]

Right, right. I mean. Okay, fair enough. Yeah. And so, like, listen, I don't want to take too much your time, you know. Well, I appreciate you.

[Jay Dyer]

No, they're. Good question.

[Caller/Questioner]

Thank you. Have you. I was gonna ask you. So if I'm gonna. Okay. Like, if I want to look at this as rational as possible or try to. Right. Like, try to scrutinize as much as I could. I'm sure you hear this a lot. I know, like, you're a big proponent of tag, and I like tag, actually, I think that's probably the best argument for Got. So two questions in regards to tag. Would you say that, like, animals, other than human beings have some sort of logic and rationale, and would that be credit to God, or does that affect the argument on any chance that, like, you know, a dog can. Can you Know, pick up on when you know where the snacks are or something, you know, and then. And you know, break it like a snack box.

[Jay Dyer]

Oh, I mean, I mean they have instincts and they have a degree of instinctual reasoning. But that we wouldn't say that they have reasoning as a faculty like humans have.

[Rachel]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, because reasoning, reasoning is one of the faculties that we would say is a constituent element of human nature. And you know, animals have some, you know, smaller degree of that kind of stuff, but they don't have the faculty of reasoning. They just have inst. They have instincts.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah. And then secondly, like when it comes to, you know, someone claiming like who caused God, like everything in the creation, everything in the universe has a causation. I mean, who would cause God and God the father, not like, you know, not the son of the spirit, you know, what would you say to them?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I wouldn't accept the first premise that everything has a cause.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah. Why? Why not?

[Jay Dyer]

Why should I accept that everything has a cause?

[Caller/Questioner]

That's a great question that I never asked.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean most of the, most of the, you know, classical argumentation just operates on sort of assumption. Assumption, yeah, assumptions of ancient medieval philosophy that were never questioned. But I don't know how you would demonstrate that everything has a cause. I mean, I mean, if you're a Christian, God doesn't have a cause.

[Caller/Questioner]

So I see what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, exactly what you're just saying. I mean, you know, like, but also,

[Jay Dyer]

even, even from an empirical, like let's say that you wanted to go with that classical line of argumentation. Even if you're an empiricist and you're using empirical sense data, you don't actually know that everything has a cause. I mean your sense, your sense data is limited. So how do you know everything has a cause?

[Caller/Questioner]

That is, that is like, that is true. Like empirically speaking, that is true.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

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[Caller/Questioner]

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[Alex Kancheroitz]

Hi, this is Alex Kanchowitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Caller/Questioner]

So if it comes to, you know, I'm just shotgunning, to be honest. I mean, you're like, listen, man, like, not much people like to be honest as answers. I some of my qualms with religion as much as you. So I'm just gonna straight up shotgun feed if you don't mind. I'm not gonna be like, obsessive about it. I'm just, you know, I'm just trying to see, like, why that's fine. Like, I can't find an answer to myself. I mean, if someone says, like, if God is omniscient or he's all knowing and, you know, and he sends him a revelation or a message or however you want to word it, and there is not a uni. Unanimity and how that message is received. Like, there is differences in how the message is received. Is God at fault for not knowing that his. The human beings will receive it in a certain way and not accommodating for them to have unanimity? You get what I mean? Like, it's like if God is all knowing and he sends a message and not everyone receives it, well, then is he. How is he not at fault, you know, for not catering that message to, To. To such, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, if he's created beings that have freedom and the beings can choose to listen or not listen or disobey or something like that, like, why would that mean that. That he was in some way at fault? I mean, what. He doesn't have to. To. I mean, he. If he can create a world where beings have freedom, then that seems to answer that question. But, But I'm not understanding, like, what. In other words, it's almost like you're saying, well, why did. In other words, you're asking, why did he create beings that have free will? I mean, I don't know. I guess because, you know, it's a better world if the beings choose to be with him rather than Just being a computer program, I guess.

[Caller/Questioner]

You know, the thing, to be honest with you, I like about the orthodoxy is that they will straight up tell you, like, I don't know, like, they will not try and claim to have an answer for, like, you know, the thing with Catholics, like, I don't want to, like, rant here, but it's like, the problem is like, I think when you try to, when you don't take that approach and you just try to, you know, make sense of everything, when you like, clearly can't, you know, like, you just straight up said, I don't know, that's a fair answer.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I think that that's true. There is a. Orthodoxy tends to have a little more humility, I think, in terms of understanding the limits of human reason and scholasticism. So there's just, you know, like, if you read the Book of Job, the point of the Book of Job is like, some of these questions will never have answered in this life. So, yeah, it's kind of prideful to think that, oh, well, I'll give an answer. You know, I don't know why God permitted evil, but I know that I have a basis at least to believe that there is a standard of good and evil if God exists. Whereas if I were to go the route of thinking that the problem of evil disproves God, well, then I'm in a position then that's no better because now there's no such thing as evil and all actions are equalized. So I'm not sure how that would put me in a better position. If. And by the way, if all actions are equalized, then also I lose the ability to distinguish the true from the false because everything just is so interesting. Yeah.

[Caller/Questioner]

And then like, just lastly here, last time, I'll make a real question. If you mentioned once. And here's the thing, right? Like, my biggest contingency or one of my biggest contingencies with Christianity or the Christian thought was like, what it meant for Jesus to die for your sins. Like, what sin did he die for? You know, like, so on and so forth. And so I. And it wasn't until I actually came up across your video on the orthodox, like, paradigm, it's not like a pain because I kept getting fed this Protestant Roman.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

[Caller/Questioner]

And I was just like, they keep saying it's just. But like, it's really not just. It's the problem.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, Just. It just doesn't make sense because why would God need to be paid? Why would God need to be paid with a created thing? Or why would God need to pay God off? Like, all that stuff is stupid. So it's just stupid.

[Caller/Questioner]

Like, you know, and so you touched on it a bit. But if you could explain, like, so, yeah, like correct me or I'm wrong. It's like we were created with the intention of theosis, right? And so, yes, the problem was when, when mankind, you know, Adam, when he was the other path, when he didn't listen to the divine decree, that opened the possibility for like not a state of not being with God as in.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, let me put it this way, an easiest. The easy way to think about it is when Adam and Eve rebelled, they basically made a covenant with Satan. So they basically kind of entered into a covenant with death. And in our view, ultimately death is linked to the angel of Death, who is Satan. So the fallen entity kind of invited Adam and Eve into his kingdom, and that's the kingdom that they joined. And so they were banished from paradise. And now they were subject to death and mortality and being under the dominion of the fallen angel that has the power of death. So what happens is that human nature is wounded. And so it now it prefers and tends towards the vices. And those vices are what we call the passions. And we don't mean passion in the sense of, like, you know, love story passion. It means the. It means the desires, the bodily desires. The bodily desires are out of whack. And so what happens is that Satan has control over us through enslaving us through those vices or those desires. So the, even the. But we don't even think the desires themselves are bad. But like, if I'm enslaved to them, then Satan has control, control of me because he's running my life with this or that vice. So what Christ did on the cross was not to pay off some sort of infinite debt that God expected from a created human nature, but rather to overcome that power by going into Hades. And so it's a kind of a lure that entrapped Satan by thinking that he could overcome God by destroying the Son of God on the cross, thereby inviting the Son of God into the realm of death or Hades. And then in that realm he destroys the power of death through our fallen human, mortal nature. And so. Let me finish this part. So when he resurrects, our view is that he deifies the human nature that he assumed in the Resurrection and the Ascension. And so now when we partake of the Eucharist, we think that that is giving us the power to overcome the passions, which is what Satan used to Keep us enslaved. And by doing that, in the resurrection, we will become deified sons of light, like Jesus is a son of God. Now, we're not sons by nature. He's the Son by nature. We're sons by grace. But we can participate in that grace through what he did.

[Caller/Questioner]

I see what you're saying. That's like. Yeah, that's probably the best explanation I've got. Yeah. I mean, listen, man, like, you're great, honestly, Keep it up, you know, and I see some of your political stuff. And I was just gonna ask you if you can talk about. You can mention, you know, I'm Syrian, but if you can mention, like, the whole Syria, you know, like the CI. And I remember joking out like, yesterday before I mentioned the whole, like, you know, the psyop and everything. If you can just, you know.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, I mean, you know, I was writing about the PSYOP for 2021 wire back in 2012, 1314, because we didn't know the name of it at the time, but it's now been declassified. It was timber sycamore and this is, you know, and we knew that the CIA was. Was running this, obviously, with Israel too.

[Caller/Questioner]

But it's like, dude, like, it's so, like, I don't know how Muslims are just. They fall for it every time. It's like, these people are such brainless. Like, it's like, how are you going to. Like, how are you saying you oppose Israeli Hemogony and then do the exact thing which imposes Israeli Hamish? Like, you idiot. Like, I don't understand. I don't want to rant here, like, in front of these. Well, I don't. Yeah, it's so stupid, bro. Like, I just don't understand. Like, it's like. Yeah, well, when you go back to the religion, like, at least Sunni Islam, like, the problem is that it's literally like, you know, caps critical thought and judgment. Like, it's like, you can't obey somebody. You can't disobey the ruler. You can't do this. You can't.

[Jay Dyer]

You know, I mean, like, oh, it's a perfect cult. Sunni Islam is a perfect sort of death cult.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

And they get. And they get used what hand you

[Caller/Questioner]

eat with, then if you can, like, do it, I mean, like, you're distracted, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Everybody should look up this New York Times article. And obviously I'm not a fan of the New York Times, but this is a huge admission of everything that we were. That we were talking about behind the sudden death of a one billion dollar Secret CIA war in Syria. September sycamore here. Total, total vindication, by the way, of everything I talked about.

[Caller/Questioner]

You know, the funny thing about it is, like, when you talk to these people where I was like that electric, it's like they have legitimately, like, legitimately a zero shred of evidence that like, to hold on, like, they don't. We have documentation that prove that they're just straight up terrorists that were funded by Israel and CIA.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay. We have documents. I mean, we have admittances from the CIA, from Israel, from them even, to be quite honest with you. We have their. Like, they have. They're just. You know, it's like the idea that like, these Muslims have that, like, you know, the US and Israel get it wrong every time, but when it came to Syria, they got it right. It's just like, hilarious. You guys are such idiots. Like, and like. And I'm just ranting, like, like, quite honest with you, but like, dude, like, these people, like, I don't know, man. This is why I have, like, such a disdain for these, like, you know, type of people. Like.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, I. Again, I mean, I've always said the same thing. Like, like, how do these. You would think these people kind of figure it out, but. Yeah, I appreciate your question, Stallion. Good questions, by the way. Guys, I'm just. I'm super tired from this crazy trip that we're on, so I'm not trying to be like, boring or whatever, just like, I'm almost out of energy, but. Ty, what's up, man? Appreciate you guys. Now we are in mountain time zone, so it's not actually that late here. What's up, man?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey. Yeah, I just like to say that I used to be. Okay, can I talk a little bit about Carl Jung?

[Jay Dyer]

Sure. Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck. I'm gonna make him an offer he kept refuse with family.

[Caller/Questioner]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Caller/Questioner]

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[Jay Dyer]

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[Alex Kancheroitz]

Hi, this is Alex Canceroitz. I'm the host of Big Technology Podcast, a longtime reporter and an on air contributor to cnbc. And if you're like me, you're trying to figure out how artificial intelligence is changing the business world and our lives. So each week on Big Technology, I bring on key actors from companies building AI tech and outsiders trying to influence it, asking where this is all going. They come from places like Nvidia, Microsoft, Amazon, and plenty more. So if you want to be smart with your wallet, your career choices, in meetings with your colleagues and at dinner parties, listen to Big Tech Technology Podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, I first got turned onto this stuff by Jordan Peterson, but then after listening to you, you know, metaphysics and the ability to go a lot deeper has been far more interesting. And then I listened to something you were saying about Jung not too long ago. So I started reading the Eon. And when you get up to his, I think it's his chapter on the self, he basically admits that the validity of all that he's been saying sort of hitherto about the shadow and, you know, the anima and all that, is based on the fact that proto man and what he calls the habitus, which is like the ideal way of living that proto man was. Was doing, was living by this habitus, is the way we should be living in. In harmony with our instincts, which he characterizes as the will of God. But the crucial part is that why this is all valid is because man survived. And to me, that just sort of struck me as the evolutionary argument, you know, as if, why should we believe this or why does it work?

[Jay Dyer]

Because of survival.

[Caller/Questioner]

Survival of this. And he's just sort of recalling that or repackaging that as this habitus. And yeah, the fact that it's valid is because humans have survived.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, of course, that's a non non sequitur. Right? I mean, like, why does that mean. I mean, maybe. Maybe we shouldn't survive. Right? Like what. Why are we supposed to think that something is valid because we survived. But I'm getting kind of tired. But remind me, what. What was he saying? So he's talking about the self and he's saying that we survive. So therefore, what.

[Caller/Questioner]

So that's. He. He basically. He says. He says valid. He sort of. Why is this all valid? Like, you know what I've been talking about? He says. I mean, I wrote it down. He says the.

[Jay Dyer]

You mean Jungian philosophy is valid because man survived?

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, exactly. He feeds it all back to this. This, like, almost like a liberal, you know, like a liberal or sort of Rousseauian view of the ideal man, you know, before civilization and all that kind of stuff, you know, in harmony with nature. Right. Living in harmony with nature.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller/Questioner]

And so. And then yeah, and he's talking about the psychic life. And then these instincts are the will of God. A bit like Schopenhauer's, you know, drives and wills.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Caller/Questioner]

And then, yeah, he says the existence of these habitus, this is his word for word. The existence of this habitus is proof of its validity. So. And the habitus is that survival. And he says, sorry, where is it?

[Jay Dyer]

So the will to survive is God. And that's what Jungian philosophy is. Is the welder survive or some sort of philosophical psychoanalytical portrayal of that.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's the proof of this. It's viability is the habitus. For if it were not viable, all those who obeyed it would long since have perished of maladaption. Right, malad. So that, you know, they just wouldn't have been adapted to their environment to survive. So that's what the validity. That's what his whole sort of unconscious, you know, all of his philosophy sort of rests on. Which I thought was kind of quite a defeat.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it is. Because, you know, ironically, you know, people think of him as the antithesis to Freud, but that actually sounds kind of like Freudian drives. So in other words, if this is the case, then why not accept Freud's analysis of, you know, we're all just sort of driven by our base desires and then Freud kind of bird Nietzsche. Right. So maybe. I mean, why wouldn't I take Carl Jung's philosophy and be Nietzschean if that's the case?

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, well, yeah, exactly. I mean, I saw it in sort of as a lineage, as a line like, what would you say it's just sort of a progression from, you know, the Enlightenment philosophers like the Kant etc, where they seem to be wanting to personalize. Personalize God. They want. Well, they take the idea of God and they, you know, banish it to the sort of deistic realm and then all the moral foundation and the validity of their arguments. Let's say they want to personalize and just seed it in psychology. If you look at like some of the early empiricists, like.

[Jay Dyer]

No, this is exactly what it is because in. And I've not read the Totality of Aeon, I've read a selection of it, which was in one of my grad classes, but we did Archetypes of a Collective Unconscious on my channel about maybe six months a year ago. And in that book he says what you're saying. He cites Kant and he says Kant. He says, basically, I'm just doing what Kant did, but I'm doing it with Psychology. He's like, Kant just made the structures of the mind. What is philosophy is all about, and it erased metaphysics. And he said, since Kant's just doing psychology, I'm going to continue with psychology in the Kantian way. And he says basically it's no different than ancient Gnosticism. He says we're just doing what the ancient Gnostic. Gnostics were doing. So that makes sense that he would. That he would do what you're doing and say, basically, I'm not doing theology, I'm not doing philosophy or metaphysics. It's just. God is basically just kind of a technology that is useful to you for survival.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah. And then. And it. And it robs. Really. It robs God of. Well, it robs sort of morality of that objective.

[Jay Dyer]

Absolutely. Well, yeah, he basically says reality is a projection of the mind anyway.

[Caller/Questioner]

So.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Caller/Questioner]

I was reading this. I can't remember his name, but this, this fellow from the 1930s from Russia, and he was, you know, doing a deep dive on Dostoevsky. I mean, a lot of the language in that was kind of, you know, was redolent of. Of Jung. He talks about the unconscious, but he's also mentioning the spirit and how that was really interesting and, you know, important to Dostoyevsky. But. And, and this guy was orthodox, but. So I wonder if there's, you know, a place for the kind of Jungian language just on a sort of a surface level just to.

[Jay Dyer]

Maybe I don't see a problem with it unless it. You go too, you know, unless you go crazy with it. But like, there was a great article for many years. I think it's still there at my buddy's website, Soul of the east, and somebody wrote an article about Platonic elements in Dostoevsky. So let me see if I can find that because it does exist. Yeah, this is it. Plato and Dostoevsky. I forgot who wrote this. Let's see, it might be that Martin guy that I used to argue with. Anyway, I don't know who wrote this. It doesn't even say who the author is, but. Oh, it's a translation that Mark did. So I would check out this article, Plato and Dostoevsky.

[Caller/Questioner]

It's really good.

[Jay Dyer]

And Carl Young is obviously not just influenced by Gnosticism, but he's also a Platonist of sorts. So, yeah, this would be right up your alley. Yeah.

[Caller/Questioner]

And. And well, yeah, well, if you want to have. Do you want me to wreck, you know, give you the name of this book that I read or is that.

[Jay Dyer]

Sure. It was.

[Caller/Questioner]

Sorry I'll just get it up quickly. I'll have a look at that. Yeah. Dostoevsky, An Interpretation. I don't know the author, but it's from. It's from the 30s, I think. He sort of. He compares Tolstoy versus Dostoevsky, and he's saying that Tolstoy was obsessed with history and static, you know, I suppose, maybe material interpretations of. Of history, whereas Dostoevsky was more focused on, like, the spiritual and actually kind of the moral universe of the individual. And it was a far more fluid, you know, reading of history.

[Jay Dyer]

Interesting. But.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, yeah, really interesting.

[Jay Dyer]

I appreciate that, Ty. I'm gonna have to go move on. Not trying to be rude. I'm just, like, super tired. Like, I'm about to, like, pass out. But thank you for your questions. We'll do a couple more. Devon, what's up, man? Hotel soap says, what's the first philosophy book to start reading? What did I pick up first? I think the first philosophy thing I read was like. I think I read the Apology. So I would read Plato's Apology. And then, you know, I had a philosophy course. So I was. I was reading some of the textbooks that we had, which were, like, selections. So we read some of the other dialogues, like the Phaedrus, Phaedo Mino Crisius. Those are some important dialogues. And then I think we read Republic. I did a whole undergrad class on the Republic, so I would actually start with some of the ancient philosophers if I wanted to get into philosophy. Devin, what's up, man?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, man. Presbyterian here. Not to debate, just open to learning, right? I'm open to Orthodoxy and church history. A few questions. So I was talking to my pastor about it, and I was arguing, like, from the Orthodox position after studying it for about a year, and he said, like, when it comes to church history and the faith once and for all delivered to the saints, he says, yeah, but earlier doesn't mean better because all of the letters that the New Testament are corrective in nature. So why didn't they have it right from the beginning? How would you respond to that?

[Jay Dyer]

I'm sorry, what's the argument?

[Caller/Questioner]

So, like, if the Orthodox Church has the faith once and for all, delivered to the saints, why are all of the letters in the New Testament corrective in nature?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, that doesn't mean that every local church is inerrant or is, you know, impeccable. I mean, obviously, every local church has problems. I mean, look at Revelation 1, 2, 1 and 2, where Jesus rebukes, or 2 and 3, where he rebukes the churches of Asia Minor. And then one of those churches, he says, I will remove your lampstand. So we believe that any individual, local church, or even any national church can fall away or apostatize. But the promise is to the universal church that it can never lose the totality of the faith or the episcopacy. It could never fail to have bishops. So that's what we mean by having the fullness of the faith. It does not mean that the local churches are free from various errors or even heresies.

[Caller/Questioner]

Gotcha. Okay. And then what is the hermeneutic and orthodoxy? I couldn't really find anything on it because I know Orthodoxy is not a big fan of private interpretation because that's how you end up with, you know, John Nelson Darby.

[Jay Dyer]

And that's a different. So that's a different question from hermeneutics. Hermeneutics is a science of interpretation. And that's a different question from the Reformation doctrine of the right of private interpretation. So in hermeneutics, by the early Middle Ages and into the Middle Ages, both the Latin east and the Orthodox west, and I mean, obviously the word the west is Orthodox as well throughout those centuries. But by the time of the Middle Ages, both the east and west agreed on the Quadriga, which is the four senses of Scripture. It doesn't mean that every single text in Scripture has four senses. Obviously, Paul's doctrinal epistles don't have four senses, but from the totality of the New Testament passages and the way that they interpret the Old Testament passages, as well as within the Old Testament itself and the patristic interpretation, and probably to a degree borrowing from the previous Jewish exegesis, there's a fourfold sentence of Scripture where they started to notice that there's a grammatical historical, there is a anagogical, there's an allegorical, and then there is a spiritual or moral tropological sense. So basically, the church came up with what's called the quadriga or the fourth senses of Scripture. And this is mentioned by Saint Maximus, and it becomes again normative by the. I would say, 8th or 9th century. So that is probably very foreign to most Protestant and evangelical and Presbyterian churches because they're going to believe in the grammatical historical, and they're going to eschew the typological and spiritual interpretation.

[Caller/Questioner]

Gotcha. And then what's the eschatology in Orthodoxy? Is it more post male? Is it more all male? You.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, you cannot be a believer in a millennium in a literal sense. That is condemned by the Second Ecumenical Council when it says that his kingdom shall have no end. And so one could be conceivably either amillennial or post millennial, but there's not a dogmatized. Outside of that, there's not a dogmatic statement on you must be postmortem millennial.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay, and then I would say this would be my last question because I don't know what I don't know. You know, have you seen, there's a video on YouTube, it's called the Failures of Eastern Orthodoxy by Ancient Past tv. It's like a hour and a half long.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I remember a Protestant dude making that video a long time ago, but I don't remember much about it.

[Caller/Questioner]

Gotcha.

[Jay Dyer]

If you have a specific argument from it, I'd like. I'll have you to address it, but off the top of my head, no, I don't remember a two hour video from seven years ago or whatever it was.

[Caller/Questioner]

No. Fair enough. And it's a long video. It's a lot of material. You said you're in Mountain Time. Are you in Montana? Colorado?

[Jay Dyer]

No, I'm in New Mexico.

[Caller/Questioner]

Oh, okay. Well, thanks, Jay. I greatly appreciate it, man.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, yeah. The Quadriga, by the way, even the Jews have what they call pardes P A R D E s. And it's ironically, it's kind of the same fourfold sense. And the only reason I bring that up is that most likely both Jews and the Christian exegetes kind of developed this pattern out of what they saw within the Scriptures themselves. The literal, historical, which is the events, the people and the places, the allegorical being, the significance regarding Christ in the church, the tropological or the moral sense, and then the anagogical sense. But the future realities of heaven, hell and the final state, this became more normative throughout the east and the west by the Middle Ages. That is hermeneutics and exegesis. And that is different from the idea that you have a quote right to the private interpretation of Scriptures, which is a Reformation doctrine. What's up, man?

[Caller/Questioner]

Yo.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah,

[Caller/Questioner]

okay. Could you give me an argument for God?

[Jay Dyer]

For God? Yeah, the transcendental argument.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay. Could you run it.

[Jay Dyer]

For God to. Or see. If knowledge exists, then the preconditions for knowledge exist. The preconditions for knowledge only make sense and are coherent if there's a being that can grow on those preconditions. Knowledge exists, therefore God exists.

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[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, yeah. So what are the preconditions?

[Jay Dyer]

It would be any of the transcendental categories for the possibility of knowledge, external world universals, meaning the knower, the self, quantity, quality, location, etc, Aristotle's qualities.

[Caller/Questioner]

And like, why can't I just hold this on Platonist view?

[Jay Dyer]

Which grounds this because Platonism has significant problems in terms of its metaphysics and its epistemology, such as relating a world of absolute, unchanging, perfect stasis to flux and change. What's the connection between these two worlds?

[Caller/Questioner]

Well, yeah, I'm just gonna like have to say that objects within our world are going to be imitating or taking on the form of those objects.

[Jay Dyer]

But if those objects are cashed out as perfect way.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay, but if there's like change in the.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, but object. Okay, but how. What's the account for change? If those objects are in perfect ideal stasis, but our world is characterized by change, then how do we know that there's any connection between the two?

[Caller/Questioner]

Well, it's just stipulated under the view.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly. But saying that it's stipulated doesn't tell me that we know that. So you're just stating the position and I'm asking how we know the position is true. What's up man? Last guy. Orthodoxy. What's up man? Go ahead. Octavian gifted 20 memberships. Appreciate that. Go ahead. Dude, are you there? Are you there?

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[Caller/Questioner]

Just a quick one, man. I'm reading Seraphim Rose a lot and I'm curious what you think with UFOs. I know you've covered a lot with crashes and abductions. Sarah from Rose talks about this. But I want to get your take

[Jay Dyer]

if that's possible and that's all. Yeah. Remind me. I don't remember what he said. I mean, I did. I did an analysis of orthodox in the religion future maybe like eight years ago, but I don't. What did he say about the crash and abductions? I don't recall.

[Caller/Questioner]

Well, I'm in the part of the book where he's just listing stories like in rural parts of America where farmers and police officers had like a. An object essentially hit their car or land in the middle of the road. And then I've also heard of things about like people being abducted and having markings or whatever, like triangles on their skin.

[Jay Dyer]

So I would say that the government could be experimenting on people with MK Ultra and the people think that it's aliens. Or the government is inducing the belief in aliens in the people that they're being experimented with. There is some precedence for that. If you read the Collins brothers book Invoking the Beyond, specifically the middle 300 pages where it gets into George Adamski and his relationship to Allen Dulles. I think it's possible too that people are having demonic experiences that they're interpreting as aliens. There's also the possibility that satanic cults are, you know, dosing people with lsd, you know, giving them, inducing in them the belief in aliens and messing with them. Because there's a lot of parallels between what supposedly the aliens do with, you know, but stuff how come the aliens always want to go on your butt and what people report about satanic ritual abuse again. So I think that all of those are possibilities.

[Caller/Questioner]

All right, thank you, man.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, we'll end with butt stuff. MF Damien, $5. My Coke fiend pops watched the Omen, thought Damien sounded cool. So I'm basically named after a gay Hollywood antichrist character. Am I cooked or pre cooked? No, that's actually a really funny story. I would just roll with it, dude. Octavian, thank you for gifting 20 memberships. Wrecked sends $10. Thanks, dude. FPV says for $5. Would Napoleon Dynamite or McLovin from Superbad be a chad nerd? Nah, dude, I think they're just straight nerds, bro. Philosophical hermeneutic is appreciated, Slay Queen. Thank you, Christopher Scott, $5. Just joined. You win, Jay. Thank you. Octavian gifted another five memberships. Appreciate that, Alex. Orthodoxy. Since $5. Just accept my axioms, Jay. Crazy. Here's some support for the bipoc king. Well, since you guys are sending this late night support, I'm gonna go ahead and do a couple more. Just let me take a little sip of this strong Ice tea that I have here. And yes, it's. It's literally just iced tea. As you guys know, I do not drink alcohol. I'm not a tea totaler. I don't care if you drink alcohol. I just don't like alcohol anymore. I had enough alcohol in my 20s. Brian, what's up man? Trying to get a little bit of rejuvenations up in here. Oh, give me rejuvenated. What's up, Brian? I'm mute. Come on, man.

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey. Hey, what's up? Nice to meet you, man. Hey, hey. Sorry, I just got here. Please continue.

[Jay Dyer]

You hit request to speak. What do you want to talk about?

[Caller/Questioner]

Oh, dude, I want to talk about anything. I'm thinking about becoming a Muslim.

[Jay Dyer]

Are you joking or you been serious?

[Caller/Questioner]

I'm. I think I'm going to convert them from the inside.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay. All right, we got a late, late night comedians.

[Caller/Questioner]

Ha.

[Jay Dyer]

Disaster. What's up dude? If you come with the comedy quote unquote, you better be funny dog, because I'm a heck of you. Disaster. What's up man? I'm you, man. And then he dude just leaves. Anthony, what's up dude? Anthony. I'm mute.

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, aj, my phones are okay. Okay, cool. I. I didn't want to take away much from what you said about the dude that was Blackfield. I just want to make a quick comment. I just think it's interesting how like in the past, like nothing's really changed from 1600 years ago when like you had like Saint Cyril dealing with like the, the urban prefect and you know, they were siding with the pagans. Meanwhile. Right, yeah, meanwhile Alexandria have the massive Jewish population constantly subverting and. Yeah. Messing with the Christians.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, this is a great point, Anthony. I appreciate that. Yeah, like we, we think of this like. Oh, nobody's dealt with we with what we deal with with. No, we, we've always dealt with evil. Kings and tons of emperors were heretics trying to subvert the church. So that's exactly why we shouldn't be black pilled. Exactly. Irwan, what's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, Jay. Yeah, just wanted to quickly say that we need more pizzo streams with the blue avians and the way we pyramids and.

[Jay Dyer]

All right, I'll bring some of that heat when I get back to my, you know, normal studios. I'll bring all that schizo energy, bro. Bro, for sure. Benjamin, what's up, dude? Benjamin Netanyahu. What's up, my mute man?

[Caller/Questioner]

Oh, that was a good one. Jay, can you hear me? Yeah, I just want to start by saying, man, I appreciate everything you've done. I'm going to attend my first orthodox service.

[Jay Dyer]

Cool, cool.

[Caller/Questioner]

And just want to see if I'm here in California. Riverside. I'm sure you know the church that

[Jay Dyer]

everybody goes to, Father Josiah's.

[Caller/Questioner]

I'm sure, yeah, it is. And I'm not too sure if your opinion on the honest church. I'm not too sure what you, I

[Jay Dyer]

mean, I've never been there, so I, I've never been there. I can't speak to it.

[Caller/Questioner]

No. Okay. Well, I mean that was just a quick thing because I know there's some disputes that you had with other priests or they had disputes with you.

[Jay Dyer]

So I just want to get that from that church. From there? What do you mean?

[Caller/Questioner]

No, so not from there specifically as like I said, it's my first time. I don't have any knowledge of their opinion, but I know I saw a video of yours a while ago about some priests that basically say that they shouldn't, that we shouldn't be looking to you as, as a, I guess an influencer.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I, I, I say that you shouldn't listen to me as an influencer because influencers are faking gay. So I would agree with the priests that tell you that I'm a bad person. They're correct. I am a bad person. Zorro, what's up dude? You should listen to me as an Internet infotainment man. Zorro, what's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

I know the canon of the Bible. This how I know because the church fathers were wrong.

[Jay Dyer]

Is that you're doing the Captain Tsariak argument. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was a good argument. Dude. I'm gonna try pulling that argument. I'll be like, I know what the can of the Bible is because they're wrong. Billy, what's up?

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[Caller/Questioner]

Yo, Jay, can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[Caller/Questioner]

So I'm sure you've gone over this multiple times, and if you have, obviously I would love to know, like, what videos. Okay, videos to watch from you. But I was having a conversation with a couple of my buddies because we're all, you know, kind of digging deep together on orthodoxy as a whole. And one of my buddies said. He said I struggle with, like, fully being on board with it because I don't know how there can be completely zero error within a specific, even though orthodoxy is pre denominational, he always, you know, tags it along with other denominations. And because of that, and we see how much error is in Protestantism, he says he has a hard time trusting that there's never been, like, error and that we still hold to the same doctrine as 2, 000 years ago.

[Jay Dyer]

Dude, listen to me. Right now, I'm breathing, so there's air. So the idea that there's no error is we would all be dying. We would. We would suffocate. That's

[Caller/Questioner]

like error.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, the air is what I'm breathing right in my. My lungs right now, dummy.

[Caller/Questioner]

Wait, I think I'm. Am I. I think I might be confusing you. Like, he doesn't think that he's having a hard time, like, trusting the whole entire apostolic succession.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, so you're saying that there's no air, right?

[Caller/Questioner]

You said what?

[Jay Dyer]

There's no error.

[Caller/Questioner]

Well, he. He doesn't know how they're. How it can be perfect is what his point.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, dude just needs to breathe, and if he breathes, then the air is going into his lungs, therefore, there is air. To say that there's no air is. Dude, I'm just messing with you, man. I know you're saying error.

[Caller/Questioner]

I'm sorry. This is my first time calling him before. I'm like, I'm so lost.

[Jay Dyer]

Every time you said it, it sounded like you. Your friend was saying there's no error. And I'm like, we all breathe, so there's air.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, I. I'm just. I'm super new to orthodoxy as a whole. And I'm on board with it, bro.

[Jay Dyer]

Listen, St. George Floyd said I can't breathe. And so there is no error.

[Caller/Questioner]

I mean, I can't disagree with that, bro.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, no, I know you're doing. There's. How do we know that there's no error? Well, I mean, I guess in a sense that. In a sense we're limited, so we don't immediately know intuitively that there's no quote error. But no one has shown an error to date. And I guess that does take some investigation and some time. But I mean, what we mean by no error is that in terms of the essential doctrines of the faith, the essential doctrines that you see, for example, the Nicene Creed, like the Orthodox Church still teaches those and upholds those, and her praxis, the way that she worships is the same as first, second, third, fourth, fifth, sixth century. So we're not saying that every single person who's Orthodox is infallible and never made an error. We're saying that the essential teachings of the. The Church have not changed and they are without error.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, that's what I tried to explain to him because, you know, I brought up things like. Which, please correct me if I'm wrong, but, you know, when I talk to a lot of Protestants, they always like to bring up like, tertullian and origin. And I mean, obviously we know that. And again, please.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, but no single. No single person is. We're not pap. We're not papists. We don't think that there's like one dude. That's.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah, that's what I tried because one of my buddies, when I first texted him about it, he was like, I feel like Orthodox and Catholics are the same, but different flavor. And I'm like, I mean, yeah, they both claim apostolic succession, but obviously one has the Pope, which is the biggest. What I think is the biggest difference with Orthodoxy versus Catholicism. And I was kind of breaking it down to him as best as I could with the knowledge that I have. And even at the end of the conversation, he like, he was like, it seems like Catholics are Pharisees and Protestants are seduces. Or however you say it. And I was like, I mean, well,

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, that's an over generalization. That is, you know, he's just saying that from the Protestant mindset that.

[Caller/Questioner]

Exactly. And he's also coming from which I. I was a Protestant. I mean, I still technically am because I'm in the protest process of converting. But I mean, I 100. There's nothing that I have studied on that, I've been like, no, that's wrong. And I feel like that's even dangerous because there's been things that I, like, question that I intellectually can't fathom. But just because of that, I'm not gonna say it's wrong necessarily, but I feel like a couple of my buddies who are studying, it's almost like they're doing everything to prove orthodoxy wrong rather than just going into it with a humble heart of like, okay, if change needs to happen.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, no, I mean, that's fine. It's fine to. It's fine to go into it trying to prove it wrong too, because I did the same thing and a lot of people do that. There's nothing wrong with that. And I think you'll probably come out stronger by doing that. But no, he just needs to kind of get into it and stop relying on these kind of generalities of like, oh, well, you are like the Pharisees. Like, I mean, well, Protestants can be like Pharisees too. So these, these are really just like weak sauce critiques. He's going to have to figure out that Tertullian is not a defeater for orthodoxy because every position admits that there can be people who veer off. Right? So, I mean, if the argument was that all of the church fathers are inerrant, that would be a defeater. But nobody argues that. Even Roman Catholics argue that. So. Med Med, what's up, dude? Thank you for all of those new memberships. Octavian. He says. I forgot. Happy completion of Ramadan to all the Catholics in the chat. That's a pretty sick burn, dude. Boom. Roasted Med Ned me. What's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

Oh, sorry, my Twitter handle is all messed up. It's Neil, but.

[Jay Dyer]

What's up, George Floyd? What's on your mind? All right, well, we lost you, dude. Can't hear you, man. Dude, literally can't breathe only. What's up? I'm you the only fan. What's up, man? Only. Only unmute. Oh, my gosh, dude. Julian, what's up? The apostate. What's up, man? Julian on mute.

[Caller/Questioner]

What's up?

[Jay Dyer]

What's on your mind?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, did the Stephen Molyneux interview actually drop yet?

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[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, it was like a month ago on Lord of Voldemort.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay, okay, I missed that one then.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay.

[Caller/Questioner]

I was trying to Google it.

[Jay Dyer]

It's on. It's on X. It's on X.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay, it's on X. Perfect. And then I, I had one statement. So earlier a guy said that he was, he got into you because he was listening to you. And then he went out and he

[Jay Dyer]

was like, all right, I'm gonna try

[Caller/Questioner]

to find a debate that you lost

[Jay Dyer]

or something like that.

[Caller/Questioner]

And he couldn't find one. And I think that's the experience of a lot of people is they, they, they kind of get into you from clips, kind of hear some stuff and then they're like, all right, I'll listen to a couple of his debates. And then you win and you win, and then you win. And then it's like, well, can we find one that he loses is. There's one. So I was gonna ask you.

[Jay Dyer]

There's not one yet. No. Thankfully, in terms of public debates, there's not been a, a loss yet.

[Caller/Questioner]

So even in your like 7 year old, 8 year old videos, I, I don't think I've seen you lose one. But you don't even think you've lost one either.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, we've been debating and the Internet sphere for 10 years.

[Caller/Questioner]

Right.

[Jay Dyer]

And none of those are losses.

[Caller/Questioner]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

And I'm not, I'm not being, I'm not being a douchebag. I'm just being honest. Like, there's not even any of them that were. I mean, maybe the, I don't even know what the closest one would be, but is it.

[Caller/Questioner]

Do you have a favorite thing to debate of all time?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, nowadays I enjoy debating anything but the stuff I've debated for 20 years. So if I'm debating like a feminist or, I don't know, something like that, that's. That's fun. If I'm debating geopolitics, that's fun because it's a new topic. Like that debate with Brian Shapiro was fun because it's just something new, something different.

[Caller/Questioner]

So some of that stuff's tough to listen to, and I'm glad I can

[Jay Dyer]

skip through some of these morons speaking. Well, we're having to result. Resort to debating the. The dum dums because nobody else will debate. So we. We've pretty much. We've kind of like, I don't know, like there's. There's nobody left. Like, there's no more final bosses. So we're having to.

[Caller/Questioner]

You're now reduced to a balance of tard maxing and patience maxing.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes. And that's why it let. It left me fart maxing, because that's all there is. So all there is is to. Basically, it's like people saying that in the. Like, I might as well just go debate Charlie Sheen now because there's nothing. There's nothing left. But thank you, Justin. Appreciate that. And by the way, I'm not being a douchebag. I'm sure that there are plenty of people who would beat me in a debate, but I'm smart enough to not take a debate that I know I would lose. So it's like if I debated, I don't know, somebody with a PhD in some field that I don't, of course they would mop the floor with me, but, like, there's no more, like, top Muslims to debate. There's no more. There's not really any atheists left. Really. Maybe there's one or two that haven't debated yet. I don't know. But. Shelby, what's up? I feel like I'm like, what's. Is Evander Holyfield? Did he. Didn't he win the matches? He won all the. The kick puncher, kick fight, punch fight episodes. What?

[Caller/Questioner]

What?

[Jay Dyer]

What? Hit record. He is. What? His record. He is. No, not Evander Holyfield. Floyd Mayweather. That's what I'm trying to think of. Floyd. Floyd Patterson. Floyd Mayweather. Dude, come on, man. See, then what you do is you just retire, right? You do like a bunch of you do 10 years and then you got no losses, then you retire, then you're like, ah, you know what I'm saying? Because then. Then you. You can't lose, right? Let's see what his record was. Did he. He's 30 and 0, right? Or something like that? He didn't lose any, did he? He tied Joe Lewis 26 consecutive wins. Has he had any losses, though? No. He's 50 and 0. Is that right? 50 and. Oh. So basically we're like Floyd Mayweather over here. What y' all think is. Would y' all agree. I'm not trying to be a douchebag. If y' all think I lost the debate, I don't care. Because even if you. Even if you thought I lost one, well, okay, I won the other 5,000. So next is to debate the Pope. It wouldn't. Would. It would be funny if the Pope did a debate, but, like, the Popes don't do debates, dude. Lockstep. Seriously, who would you like to debate? Dude, honestly, I don't even care anymore. I really don't. I'm not. I don't sit around thinking, ooh, ooh, I want to get in the ring with that dude. The only debate I'd be interested in having would be something like the geopolitics of the papacy, but none of them will do it.

[Caller/Questioner]

It.

[Jay Dyer]

I've even reached out to, like, academics, and they won't do it. So. Who. Who else is. Jake stressed me out. I mean, I was laughing at Jake, and the. I was not stressed out in the debate. I mean, if you want to. If you. If. If by stressed out, you mean, like, got heated, but I got heated in a lot of debates, but I was laughing at Jake. I wasn't stressed out. Who's the most mean? Who would you like to debate? I mean, I think it'd be really fun to do a debate with a Roman Catholic who knows history and geopolitics or something like. You know what I mean? Because I want to debate the. The geopolitics of the papacy, and none of them will do that. So I'm more interested in that topic than I am some person, because there's not. I mean, there's not really any there. There's not anybody. There's no Roman Catholic. Like, champions now. I mean, Trent Horn's basically just saying he's done because debate's too mean for him. And we've already debated Tim Gordon multiple times, and it's just going to be the same debate, so. Shelby, did you want to say something?

[Rachel]

Oh, yeah.

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey.

[Rachel]

I'm relatively new, so if I hit a topic that you've overdone, just let me know. But I was born, or I grew up Baptist, basically, and then went into

[Caller/Questioner]

the local churches, which is the what

[Jay Dyer]

churches, apparently a cult. The what? Oh, I've heard of this. I've heard of this. Yeah. Yeah.

[Rachel]

So now that multiple versions of my worldview have been destroyed, I did want to ask a bit of advice when obviously I have limitations, like, I can't know all of the things there are to know. So when you were jumping churches or at least trying to figure out what the truth was, how did you discern? I guess, when picking an Orthodox church of, like. I guess that's not a very easy thing to give advice on, but.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, I think what I would do is not worry about the jurisdiction as much as check all the ones out that are near you.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay.

[Jay Dyer]

And. And then worry about jurisdictions down the road if some issue comes up. But it's not a. It's not an issue for, you know, if you're new to Orthodoxy, you don't really have to worry about that. But if that's what you mean, like, in terms of, like, Greek or Serbian or Russian or whatever. Tree, what's up, dude? Lockstep says debates are basically poop, But I always go back to the writings of the elite. I think debates there are actually famous, classic debates, right? So I don't think they all have to be poop, but I think nowadays the opponents are pretty much. There's just entertainment. Like, I did the Brian Shapiro debate and the in the Black Cuber Israelite debate because they. They're entertaining. That's the only reason I did those. What's up, Tree?

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, what's up, Jay? Can you hear me? Hey, so I have a statement and a question. The statement is, I heard you say earlier, George Floyd. His name is actually St. Fentanol.

[Jay Dyer]

Uh, correct.

[Caller/Questioner]

So, uh, yeah. And then, uh, this. The question is. So I was having a conversation with my Baptist friend, and he was saying that. And if you covered this before, go ahead and let me know. But he was saying that all sin is equal. So from the Orthodox perspective, what is it. From the Orthodox perspective, what is this position on that is all sin?

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, from the vantage point of position. I mean, from the vantage point of all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Yes, everybody has sinned. But from the vantage point of individual sins themselves. No, I mean Ezekiel, when God shows him the abominations that are being done in the back secret room of the temple, he says, come this way, son of man, and I will show you even greater abominations. In many cases. You have kings in the Old Testament who are said to be far worse than their fathers in terms of wickedness. So, no, I don't think all sins are equal. I think that would be absurd.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah. Thank you for your time.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, Jesus says the worst sin is to harm children, so clearly some sins are worse than other sins. Red pill, what's up? I mean, look like you guys, like, if I was to debate Wes Huff on, like, Greek texts, I'm sure he would win because I'm not studied, I'm not a textual scholar, but that doesn't mean West Huff's theology is correct. So, you know, that's the funny thing about debates is, like, almost everybody would lose to somebody in some field. Right. But I'm not going to debate somebody in a field. I don't know. It would be retarded. Like, what would be the. What would be the point of debating somebody in some field? I don't know. That makes no sense. So that's why you debate people in the fields that, you know. Well, so I'm only going to debate somebody in theology, philosophy, and geopolitics and perhaps, you know, feminism or something like that. But red pill, what's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

How do you feel? Well, how do you know that Orthodoxy is correct? Like, I keep trying to find your videos, and I can't find anywhere where you stay.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Caller/Questioner]

The reason why, like, even the short clips, I can't find yourself. You could just tell me.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I mean, I think there's a lot of different reasons why people would believe a worldview. In my case, it's my own personal experience. It's my own, you know, it's all my friends. It's my own reading and research. It's my connection to my spiritual father. I mean, there's a lot of different reasons why I would say it's correct, but I think philosophically or in terms of apologetics, at some point. Yeah, I was Catholic for about nine years.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay. I'm just. I don't know. I just wanted to know more. I'm trying to get more information. Yeah.

[Jay Dyer]

I mean, I would say that this. The quick answer would be that I think that it's the form of Christianity that lines up with, you know, what you have in the first thousand years of Christianity. And that, to me, is a strong argument for why that's the form of Christianity. I would choose, say, over Catholicism. Spinny, what's up? Paul says for $2 debate the Messianic Jews. We've actually had three or four Messianic Jews call in. And those clips have a lot of views. One of those clips has, like, almost 100, 000 views. So when they call in, I do. What's up, man? Spinny. And then. Eli.

[Caller/Questioner]

Hey, J. Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

Huh?

[Caller/Questioner]

I had a question. I was thinking back on your debates or just beef with science man Professor Dave, and hello, I go to a. Can you hear me?

[Jay Dyer]

That was not me. Eli, just hold on a second. Go ahead, Spinny.

[Caller/Questioner]

I go to like a major research university and all these things and I'm definitely on your side in this debate. But speaking with one of my peers, we were talking about kind of the distinction between the mechanism of evolution and like the philosophical like dogmatics that some people have. And I was wondering what your thoughts on how having an acceptance of the mechanism but fitting into the worldview of. That's like post fall a degree degradation of humans and other beings. How these science people are just like know so much about the mechanism and think that's proof.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Caller/Questioner]

Of their worldview.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, and when it comes to Professor Dave, like my argument against atheism is a transcendental argument. It's a philosophical argument. So Dave wants to debate creation versus evolution. Well, that's, that's not my argument though. My argument is a worldview argument about paradigms and tag. And that's, that's what I wanted to debate. If he wants to debate creation, evolution, he can do that debate with Jim Bob. So he didn't want to do that debate. So. And I knew he didn't want to do that, so. But I think you're right. You're right to say that they're mistaking learning the mechanism or learning something like a scientific method that's a tool or a description of something that they observe and then extrapolating to that a vast cosmic mythology of aeons of time. And that's the non sequitur.

[Caller/Questioner]

Yeah. Thank you, Jay.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, and it's really hard to get them to see that because if you're not used to thinking philosophically, you just kind of make these leaps that are non sequiturs and you just assume that. Well, everybody knows that. Sam, what's up? Hunter says for $5 I'd like to see you and Andrew and Jim Bob all on whatever on a panel. That would be funny. Well, I was supposed to do a whatever debate and that was one of the podcasts that didn't end up coming to fruition. I mean, it's okay. We've got freaking 17 other podcasts that we scheduled. So you know, I figured one or two of them Would would not happen.

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[Jay Dyer]

And the reason that didn't happen was that both of the feminists that we tried to get. Wait, we three feminists?

[Caller/Questioner]

We.

[Jay Dyer]

We went through three different feminists and they were all like, demanding money when they're like, local to California. It's like, you're not bringing anything worth freaking th a thousand dollars to come debate here your nonsense. So they all said no. So that's why there was no feminist debate. Eli, did you want to say something?

[Rachel]

Hello?

[Caller/Questioner]

Can you hear me? Hey. So I had a couple tag questions. I've been trying to polish up my argument, and it's funny because I was

[Jay Dyer]

watching your Malpass debate and bro, I'm gonna be honest with you, dude. I'm super tired. I don't know if I can even answer a tag question. I'm so tired, but I'll try.

[Caller/Questioner]

Okay. Yeah, no, it's. It's. I think I've got the whole issue. But the two questions that were asked.

[Jay Dyer]

What the. You cut out, dog. He. I didn't boot him. He dropped off. And I'm actually glad he dropped off because I'm too tired to answer a tight question. Jeff, what's up? All right, we gotta, we gotta. You guys keep sending me money, making me think I want to keep going,

[Caller/Questioner]

but yeah, that's okay.

[Jay Dyer]

I'm getting more and more as the night progresses. Maybe that's y' all strategy. You're like, okay, we're Gonna get him super with super chats into the. Into the night, and then we'll send in an atheist who will just destroy him, and then he will forever be retired from debating. What's up?

[Caller/Questioner]

What's up, man? I was talking to my mom. You know, I've been to a catechumen for a while now. She's opening up and just talking to

[Jay Dyer]

me about it, asking, dude, why are you talking to your mom, dude? You know, she don't even. Dude, no, you don't even talk to your mom. Don't even talk to your mom, dude. Just give it up. Quit talking.

[Caller/Questioner]

No.

[Jay Dyer]

Quit talking to her. Dude, I'm just messing with you. I'm messing with you, man. Go ahead.

[Caller/Questioner]

I was like, all right, well, when Jesus kicks out the tax collectors, he refers to the temple as the house of his Father. So do you think that the house of the Father is a temple? It's a place. Do you think Jesus, the whole time was. Couldn't wait to get rid of the house of his father, like, to destroy it and bring it to the ground? Or that means that, like, that temple, even though it was destroyed, there's still temples out there that are the house of the Father. And it's just something that she was able to answer it, and I didn't really push her on it. But just the fact that it's like, okay, well, the temple is the house of the Father. I mean, that's kind of it. It's a place. It's an actual temple, you know? So how would a Protestant handle that?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, a Protestant would say that that was prior to the destruction of the temple in 70 AD and the end of that administration. And then they would say something like, now it's, you know, super spiritual, bro. And we don't have those.

[Caller/Questioner]

Right, but in, like, the letters with Paul referring to the temple going to. They keep referring to the temple as well. You know, in all the letters with Paul, they're going to.

[Jay Dyer]

No, I understand that, but. Well, hold on. Are you talking about in the Book of Acts, when they still worship at the temple, or are you talking. Yeah, so it's like, well, the Protestant's gonna. Yeah, but a process is still going to say that. That's in the transition period before the temple's destroyed in 70 A.D. but the answer to that. To that is. Yeah, but did you notice that? I remember when I was a Protestant, this verse caused me a struggle. Peter says that the Mount of Transfiguration is the Holy Mount. And I remember thinking, wait a minute, we're in the New Testament, we're not supposed to think of a, a specific place as holy. So the principle again, is still applicable. No, we do.

[Caller/Questioner]

We got it. Cool, man, thanks.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, no, great, great point. And we have Rachel, fresh from her victory, as I'm told, with the quote, conservative feminist. I don't know what that is, but. Rachel, how are you? Are you there? Can't hear. Can't hear you if you're there. Excuse me. Hello? Maybe come out and come back in. I'm starting to lose my voice. Let's see, we got a couple more super chats here. I gotta read grits. Carlton says, would you debate JP Uncut. He was talking mad crap. Call me a direbot. That guy is really low tier. And I try to be nice to that dude. When we had that conversation and he played super nice and then that was all like, for show and then he went back to talking smack. So, no, anybody with like 2,000 subscribers that starts talking mad smack is going to just. They just want attention. And that's the best way to get me to not give you attention. Rachel, do you want to try again?

[Rachel]

Yeah. Can you hear me now?

[Jay Dyer]

I can. How are you?

[Rachel]

I was not connected to the hotel WI fi. And apparently that's better than my cell phone.

[Caller/Questioner]

Who knew?

[Rachel]

Yeah, I just heard you talking about debates and stuff.

[Jay Dyer]

And how did it go tonight?

[Rachel]

Whatever debates fell through.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, how did your, how did yours go tonight?

[Rachel]

Well, I learned that there's no such thing as laws and of logic after this chick kept telling me, well, so basically it went like this. She would just assert something. I would ask her to justify it. She couldn't do that. No shocker there. But like, women should have voting rights. Okay. Why? Because they should. Okay. Why? Because they do. Okay, I know they do, but why should they? Because they, they should. And it just went like that sounds

[Jay Dyer]

about as high, high tier as we would have expected from.

[Rachel]

And I, I kept asking her, she kept asserting that her position was logical. She's like, I, I'm saying it based on facts and logic. And at the end, somebody sent a super chat asking her, you know, what law of logic does women not voting violate? And she said, she like, laughed. She was like, there's no such thing as laws of logic. Then I almost died laughing. And so we'll have a great clip there. But yeah, it was. This is a chick who claims to be conservative. She's not. The literally, the only conservative position we could come up with that she holds all night is that she's against abortion that's it. Everything else, she's definitely a classical liberal.

[Jay Dyer]

This sounds like. Yeah, this sounds like a lot of Roman Catholics. They equate quote, conservatism and even perhaps the gospel with just being pro life. It's like, well, there's a lot more to a worldview than just being pro life or conservatism than just being, quote, pro life.

[Rachel]

Right. Yeah. And I mean, even said, I just think people should be able to do whatever they want as long as they're not hurting anybody else. And I was like, are you sure you're not a libertarian? And she was like, no, I'm a conservative thing. For the love of God, give me one conservative position that you hold. And she couldn't. It was pretty bad for her. But she's so smug and arrogant that she was, like, really certain she had totally won, you know?

[Jay Dyer]

Well, I'm glad you did. Well, I wish that I could have gotten a feminist to. To step up, you know?

[Rachel]

I know. You know what, though? I genuinely think in your case, they demanded money because they were like, oh, this guy's gonna kick my ass. I need to get out of this without looking like I'm running. So I'm just gonna. I'm gonna say, oh, I only go on podcasts if I get at least $1,000.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, that was crazy. Like, and both. Both of them did. So the first one was like, she wanted $800. And the next one was like, no, I deserve more. I deserve an escalade. And then the other one, who was the academic one, she just. I guess she just quit replying. So I don't. I don't know, but maybe in the. Maybe in the future. How did you get this one with this chick?

[Rachel]

So this girl was on with Andrew, and Andrew was on his last in person dating panel, and she was formerly a TP USA spokesperson. Oh, and she calls herself a conservative and not a feminist. And of course, through the. Through the debate, it was like, very obvious that she was definitely. It's kind of like she's basically like a Tommy Lahren where, yes, if you. She'll tell you all. All day long, men should do this. Men need to do better. They need to be better. And they say, okay, well, what should women do? And she goes, women should just enjoy all the things that men are supposed to do for them. And so everybody was kind of demanding. They're like, can we see Rachel debate her? Can we see Rachel Wrecker? So Brian reached out to her and she was like, all about it. And now she Wants to debate Andrew one on one even after him doing that on a panel and just kicking her butt. So maybe she's a little bit masochistic.

[Jay Dyer]

I don't know. Yeah, or she's really trying to be relevant. Yeah, she's trying to get attention. Yeah, yeah.

[Rachel]

She's one of these there, there's like a factory somewhere that makes blonde girls high maintenance blonde women who want to be maga. Patriot. Yeah, Barbies.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes, exactly.

[Rachel]

She's one of those.

[Jay Dyer]

Okay, well, congratulations. I saw that the comments were that you, you easily defeated the hydra.

[Rachel]

Yeah, I thought you would love her asserting that she was basing her arguments on logic and then telling me that there's no such thing as laws of logic. So that was great.

[Jay Dyer]

This reminds me of Brian Shapiro. I mean that's kind of. It's funny because Brian Shapiro is making the exact same argument arguments as a supposed conservative. Tpusa Barbie girls.

[Rachel]

Yes, exactly. I told her, I asked her what she was conserving and at the end of it I was like, so you want to conserve Obama era policies basically, right?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Rachel]

Like she's pro gay marriage.

[Jay Dyer]

She thinks she's pro gay marriage. And that's conservative.

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[Jay Dyer]

This is Mike Bolo of Lexicon Valley

[Caller/Questioner]

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[Jay Dyer]

Do you communicate or acquire information with, you know, language?

[Caller/Questioner]

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[Jay Dyer]

Find us on one of those apps where people listen to podcasts.

[Rachel]

Yeah, she's like her, she's pro gay marriage. I. It took me a minute to drag it out of because she didn't want to admit it, but she also couldn't say she wasn't because like she networks with a lot of, you know, the big tent gay Republican types.

[Jay Dyer]

Exactly.

[Rachel]

She kind of had. She kind of had to admit. Yeah, I, I don't see why gays shouldn't get married. I mean, I don't think she also tried to do the thing not so erudite always does where it's like, well, I have these morals for myself, but I think other people should just be able to do whatever they want. And I'm like, okay, well that's still libertarian. She just kept repeating, like, just kept repeating the most basic libertarian tropes and had no idea, like, what that even meant.

[Jay Dyer]

Like, Tim Pool, like, Temple degree in political science.

[Rachel]

She's got a master's in political science. And she, I'm like, you literally just ran the gamut of libertarian positions. Like classic non aggression principle.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah.

[Rachel]

Government is the problem, authority is the problem. Like, you just ran the gamut of, of libertarian positions. Do what you want is you're not hurting anybody else and you don't know that you're a libertarian. Like, what are you even talking about?

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, that's, that's Tim Pool basically spouting out all of the classical liberal positions and utilitarianism and then saying, I'm not a utilitarian or a classical liberal. It's like, yeah, you are.

[Rachel]

Exactly. It was exactly like that. Yes. But I was excited because I was like, well, it's a woman with a college degree. I don't have a college degree. Like, and she really, she really tried. So at least I had one that tried. It wasn't just like a total total or something, but she just, she, she didn't even know. She wasn't making arguments. So it was just one of those.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah, well, those are entertaining. And people asked me the other day, they were like, why did you debate Captain Tazarik? Why did you debate Brian Shapiro? It's like, well, these are the kinds of attitudes and views that normies have. Normies get into cults. Normies have Brian Shapiro's view. So it is worthwhile to debate these normie positions because that's what people believe. So.

[Rachel]

Yes, that's exactly why I do it. Same thing, people. Like, how many times do you have to have these kinds of debates with the same kinds of people? And it's like, because there's still the majority of just regular people who have never thought.

[Jay Dyer]

Yes.

[Rachel]

Things through.

[Jay Dyer]

Right.

[Rachel]

And it gets people thinking. It's, it's not that I think I'm gonna single handedly just like change the whole world or something, but it goes a long way toward getting people to think, oh, why do I hold that position? Why do I have that belief? Maybe I haven't thought it through. Maybe I should think about it. Maybe I should look right into it. It's good for that.

[Jay Dyer]

Yeah. Right?

[Rachel]

Yeah. All right. I don't want to take up any more time. I just want to say hi.

[Jay Dyer]

Well, appreciate that. Thank you, Rachel. And Congratulations.

[Rachel]

Oh, thanks.

[Jay Dyer]

40 crush says for $5. I remember you said that you lost to the. Wait, you lost? Pastor gives me that video. Oh, you mean that old video clip I made? Yeah, because I think YouTube removed it. You put it in the Twitter space. Comments? Awesome. Give me card. Oh, that one. Oh, you're talking about the guy that says give me car, give me wife, give me car, give me wife. That one, yes. I could not find that one. Appreciate that. Lockstep. $5. Jay, we got to get you to debate Frank Turek on the history of the church. I'll debate any of these big Protestant pastors, but guys, don't hold your breath. I don't think megachurch. I mean, was the megachurch pastor gonna. He stands nothing to gain from these debates, so I don't think he'll do it, but I'm down for it. This would be worth watching, brotainment. Okay, yeah, tell them to do it. Paul says debate the Schofield dispensationalists and save us. I think we've had one or two dispensationals call in, but they don't usually call in. Eli says $10. Sorry, my connection sucked. Is there is if there's a problem saying that the transcendentals are universal concepts and universal concepts come from a universal mind. I don't know if I would equate a transcendental with a universal concept, but I would say that they are universal and thus, yeah, they seems like they would have to be grounded in it. In a mind that is also omniscient, universal. Rasputin, $5. We love Jay Dyer. Thank you, Alex. Orthodox $5. It's crazy. That wild how Ortland Cooper and Trent Horn are all hyper ecumenists now Just because orthodoxy has a lot of momentum, they threw their own traditions under the bus. That is a good point. What happened to the Reformation distinctives of being opposed to idolatry and the false gospel of works based salvation or the schism of the orthodox Vatican I says at the very end that if you don't accept Vatican I, you're damned. I've never heard Trent Horn say that. Although Trent Horn is very concerned. If you say four letter words that might damn you, Octavian. $5. You run from the feminists and the geopolitical Old Testament debates. You must be joking, dog. There's only been one feminist that ever won the debate. Not so erudite, so anonymous. $3. We can demand a perfect system, but the world doesn't operate in a utopia. Well, I think we have expectations about the ought. Right? And so we have orthodox theology informs the ought, but we don't expect that there will ever be like a perfect orthodox government. So I think that's what you're expressing there. Eli says for $5, what about paraconsistent logic? Go ask FDA about that. He's answered that question probably 500 times. But it doesn't really relate. I mean, the systems that are paraconsistent don't relate to the laws of logic that we use in our day to day living. So they're kind of like not relevant to tag, which is about this world and arguing about the transcendental categories of this world and human experience. Dan Vicious, $2. Drina only had arguments for liberal feminism. Yeah, that's what I would expect. No, I'm not debating schismatic priests with 100 subscribers. Alex Orthodox, $5. It is logical, but at the same time, logic is a social construct. Yikes. Win for Rachel. Exactly. Rasputin, $5. We love you Jay. Thank you. Now guys, I want to remind you too. We did this great debate review with Fearless Truth and Jake Brocantella. They had a debate on the Trinity and if you guys didn't watch it, this is really funny because the whole debate was Jake's. It was Jake's mistake to agree to the debate about it being logical. And so they brought in high tiered logical argumentation about something. There's nothing logically inconsistent with something being one and many. And Jake was forced to admit that, but then get into the metaphysics of it. But he never understood that. You don't have to get into the metaphysics of it if you keep it just in this fear of just pure logic. So this was a really funny debate analysis if you guys missed it. So check that out. Okay, I'm too tired now. Everybody have a good night. Also remember, head over to chalk.com choq.com use promo code J60Live to get 60% off all those great chalk products.

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