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Jay'sAnalysis
THEY Really Did THIS....John Kiriakou & Jay Dyer
02:15:52
Today we go deep with John Kiriakou! All things geopolitics and espionage! John is here https://www.youtube.com/@DeepFocuswithJohnKiriakou Superchats at any time here: https://streamlabs.com/jaydyer/tip Join this channel to get access to perks:...
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- [00:00]
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- [00:31]
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- [01:29]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Sam. Foreign. Welcome to Jay's analysis, guys. Thank you for joining me today. We have an esteemed guest, somebody that I consider a true patriot and a hero. We have with us John kiriakou. You've probably seen him all over the podcast, blowing up everywhere in the last few months. He is a former central intelligence agency officer, whistleblower, journalist, author and now podcaster. And he joins me today to talk about how the world really works, the myths and realities of espionage. We're going to talk about history. We're going to talk about current topics. John, how are you?
- [02:50]
John Kiriakou
I'm well, thanks, Jay. How are you?
- [02:52]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Good. We had a. A good time talking before, and so I thought, man, this guy really knows his stuff. I've listened to I don't know how many hours of you in the last. In the last several months. And it's so weird because when you listen to somebody over and over and over on the Internet, you start to feel like, oh, yeah, I know that guy, but you don't actually know that guy. So there is a sort of familiarity. And of course, we do have a lot of things in common. Let's start it off with some notes that I jotted down after listening to a lot of the recent interviews that you've done. Of course, guys, you did just appear on tucker, and I think that went up yesterday or the night before. Yeah. And so be sure and check that out. John's channel is of course linked and he does his channel deep focus. And let's start with Something that's a little spicy. From the outset, I hear a lot of former CIA people, pro CIA people present, CIA people, they, they do a sort of apologetic, which I understand, but they argue that the west and the CIA never really engaged in sexual espionage or that kind of operation because of the legalities that it would interfere with and the rights that people have. But we hear all kinds of stories as well about Operation Midnight Climax, where this is kind of farmed out to, you know, the organized crime and this kind of stuff. And we hear about Epstein and the possible connections with various intelligence agencies throughout the world. So is it a situation where it's not on the books, but it's done kind of on the side? Can you speak to that?
- [04:27]
John Kiriakou
Oh, I can speak to it. The CIA since its inception has been involved in sexual operations, sexual espionage. Certainly sex was, was a well documented component of MK Ultra, which, which lasted from about 1952 to 1975. People are going to jump on my head for saying it ended in 1975. It ended in 1975. Certainly there are other operations that could be considered successors to MK Ultra, but MK Ultra ended in 75. You talked about Operation Midnight Climax. That's one of the more famous ones. And it's one of those operations that we talk about today in 2026, and you just have to shake your head and ask semi rhetorically, what in the world were they thinking? But yeah, I mean, sex. Sex was used routinely well into the late 70s, the early 80s. One of the very first questions, Jay, that I asked when I joined, not, not the CIA, but when I joined operations, which was about halfway through my CIA career, was about the use of honeypots, right? Because when you're, when you're learning counter intelligence, you learn how to. The Russians use honeypots, the Israelis use honeypots. Well, what about us? And one of my instructors who became my mentor, quite a famous officer, Gustavus. He was played by Philip Seymour Hoffman in the film Charlie Wilson's War. Gust told me we used sex all the time until Ronald Reagan became president. And we didn't stop because Ronald Reagan became president, but roughly that period only because it just didn't work. After a while. If you really want somebody to be a source for you and to commit espionage for you over the course of, you know, years, that relationship has to be built on a foundation of trust, not one of coercion. And so, you know, if you go up to somebody and say, listen, we set you up with a prostitute the other night and you didn't know but we had the room wired for video and, and audio and we have these pictures of you and videos and we're going to release them to your wife or we're going to release them to your government unless you work for us. That's not how you build trust. That's not how you build a long term relationship. And then he told me a story. It very well could be apocryphal, but I've always believed it. And that was before the Iranian revolution. There was an ayatollah that we wanted to recruit and so we sent a prostitute to kind of bump him and lure him into, into a hotel and he had sex with her and we took pictures and video and then laid it out in front of him and said, we've gotcha. And he laughed and he said, I'll take that in an eight by ten and give me two five by sevens of this one. And he's like, what's wrong with you guys? Seriously, like in the movies, you're going to try to threaten me? Get out of here. And it was around that operation that a decision was made that this just isn't working. If the Israelis and the Russians think it works for them, that's fine for them, but we just stopped doing it.
- [07:48]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Well, that's interesting because, you know, when, when we look into Epstein and, and the files and the emails and all these dumps that, that recently came out, you know, there was quite a bit, I don't know if you had ever had any time to read like Whitney Webb's book. I thought it was.
- [08:03]
John Kiriakou
Oh yeah, Whitney Webb is terrific.
- [08:05]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, Whitney'. And I think she demonstrates, you know, that this is sort of a copy paste operation going back to Robert Maxwell. And then, you know, whoever looks that way, whoever perhaps recruited Robert Maxwell, be the Rothschilds or whoever into doing it and taught him the ropes. It seems like the, that situation was relying very heavily on, on compromise. Many of the details and the emails that are still somewhat ambiguous and hard to figure out, they seem to point in that direction. I remember somebody saying, maybe it was Andrew Bustamante on a video or something. But somebody was saying something like, well, once you do this, you kind of, you can never do anything with them again because they're forever going to hate you. So you're not, like you said, building trust. It kind of, kind of maybe is a last resort. Is that why they would rely on something like that for, you know, so many politicians and members of Congress? Is it, is it a last resort or is it a first resort for some Some countries,
- [09:06]
John Kiriakou
you know, I can give you an educated guess, and I'm going to say that it's probably a first resort for a lot of. A lot of countries. It's unusual for me to agree with something that Andrew Bustamante has to say, but I think he's right about that. And then coming back to something that you said just a moment ago, we have to also consider the use of cutouts so that. So that the chance of blowback is lessened. And what I mean by that is, why would you set someone up in a compromising sexual position and risk it going bad and then having that blow back on you when you can have a cutout do it. You can have Jeffrey Epstein do it. You can have a foreign intelligence service do it for you, or an organized criminal gang or something that doesn't point back to the CIA. You know, look at it this way, too. We learned so much from this latest tranche of the Epstein documents. So much. And there are still three to three and a half million pages that the President is now saying will not be released, apparently because they would embarrass friends of his. But we now know that Jeffrey Epstein apparently was an access agent for the Israelis, but that he had also volunteered to work for the CIA, to work for the FBI, to work for the British MI5 and the British MI6 and the Germans, and that he had tried repeatedly to get a private, one on one meeting with Vladimir Putin. He couldn't quite get the meeting, but the Russians offered a meeting with Putin and two security officials, which Epstein had turned down. So I think that the answer to your question is most likely yes, that this is going on, that it always has gone on. And if it wasn't a direct CIA operation to use sex to gather information, it was a CIA operation to use a cutout to use sex to get information.
- [11:25]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, I think oftentimes people think of this as something that's only a government agency, as if it couldn't be. Yeah. As if it couldn't be farmed out to organized crime, you know. Exactly. You know, you watch the Godfather in the second Godfather, you know, they. They get the politician at one of the Corleone's whorehouses, so.
- [11:43]
John Kiriakou
That's right.
- [11:44]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
So they got their, you know, they got the blackmail that they need in that situation. So, yeah, I think the. That's a great point is, you know, the use of cutouts. And I don't mean to go too much into Hollywood and movies. My wife and I were watching Peaky Grinders. That's a Joke but making fun of a guy that Peaky Blinders that that was. There was a situation where, you know, the British government with my secret sis at that time, I guess was working with, you know, Killian Murphy's or Irish criminal gang. And together they're having to combat the IRA and the communists and they're using the organized crime, some, in some cases to, to do a hit. And I remember reading in some of the books on Operation Underworld and some of the stories of, you know, the Genovese crime syndicate after World War I, that the, the, the US intelligence apparatus at that time was even kind of making links with, with organized crime. How significant and real do you believe those links were to the underground world of organized crime from the American intelligence apparatus over the decades of the 20th century? Is it exaggerated? Is that something that is very important, strong?
- [13:00]
John Kiriakou
And with the advent of the Freedom of Information act and mandatory declassification laws, we now have more details about some of these relationships. As you correctly pointed out, the. The FBI worked very closely with the Genovese family to secure the port of Brooklyn and the port of Newark during the Second World War. We know how many different times the CIA worked with the, the Santo Trafficante family in, in Tampa to try to assassinate Fidel Castro. And, and there, there are other examples too. I have to be careful here. Well, you know, an obvious One from the 1980s is when the CIA was working with the Pablo Escobar cartel to target communist separatists in, in Colombia, in the jungle, DEA was doing one thing, CIA is doing exactly the opposite thing. And nobody saw any irony in that. There's a famous case where with a mob hitman, I think he was a Colombo named Greg Scarfo, where Scarfo was recruited by the FBI to go to Mississippi to find these Freedom Riders. These three Freedom Riders, Chapman Cheney, I forget the third one's name, who had been murdered by the Ku Klux Klan. And Scarfo actually kidnapped a Klansman and shot him in the knees to force him to tell him where the bodies were. And then like magic, the FBI discovers the bodies in an earthen dam outside of town. So, yeah, you go through the entire history really of the FBI and the history of the CIA and there are lots of examples where they worked very closely with organized crime.
- [14:54]
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- [15:25]
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- [15:56]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, and that actually is a great transition to the next topic I wanted to ask you about, and that's Operation Gladio. Because Gladio is another example of a very close connection between Western intelligence agencies and organized crime, particularly Sicilian Mafia. And what we, what we know of as the P2 Lodge or the propaganda Due Lodge in Italy. And this was a post World War II, sort of, oddly enough, fascist tending series of lodges that were able to be sources for recruitment according to the public journalistic material that we have on the part of the CIA and other outfits to sort of again, recruit from also organized crime. We have the character Michelle Sendona and we have the character Leecho Geli. And that ties into secret societies as well as, you know, Masonic networks, things like that. Is Gladio a huge component of that Post World War II alliance with the Vatican and Vatican bank structure, or is this exaggerated?
- [17:00]
John Kiriakou
You know, I, I always believed that, that what we've learned publicly, I let me, let me preface this by saying everything I learned about Operation Gladio, I learned after I left the CIA. It was in 1990 that the Italian prime minister and I think it was Andriotti at the time, went public when speaking to parliament about Operation Gladio. For, for your viewers who don't know what Gladio is, it was a, it was an operation hatched by the CIA, MI6, the Vatican and NATO to leave essentially sleeper agents behind right at the end of World War II and in the couple of years after, just in case of a Soviet invasion so that there would be an intelligence structure in place that could help the Western services confront the Soviets. You know, in, in retrospect, looking at it in 2026, it seems kind of quaint. You know, the thing of an interesting movie that might, you know, get nominated for An Academy Award or two. But back then, it was deadly serious. Deadly serious. We really believed the Soviets were going to invade Western Europe. We really believed it. And so people were scrambling to create an intelligence infrastructure. Keep in mind, too, that the CIA and NATO weren't created until 1947. So there was this period of about a year and a half from 45 to early 47, where we were just winging it. MI6 was sort of the preeminent intelligence service in the Western world, with the KGB being the preeminent service in the Eastern world. And, and President Truman, President Truman's advisors were saying, listen, we need to be prepared for a Soviet invasion of Western Europe. And so Truman asked the British to send MI6 officers to New York to sit with Americans and to help us create what he called a Central Intelligence Agency, a place where all foreign intelligence could be collected and analyzed. You know, just as a kind of a funny aside, all of this ended up happening as part of what's called the national security Act of 1947. But as an interesting aside, J. Edgar Hoover, the long, long time director of the FBI, he was the head of the FBI for 40, what, 48 years. He was strongly opposed to, to the, to the creation of a CIA and an nsc. The National Security Council was also created in that same national security Act of 1947. So he was going around Capitol Hill asking members of Congress to vote against it. And this is exactly the opposite of what President Truman wanted. Truman got wind that, that Hoover was working against passage of the bill. And so he called Hoover in and told Hoover, you've got this all wrong. This Central Intelligence Agency, it's going to be a component of the FBI, so you'll be head of the FBI and of the CIA. And he said, oh, and he lifted his objection. It was a lie. Of course. There was never any intention for the CIA to be a division of the FBI. And, and Hoover never forgave Truman for lying to him. But, but we were scrambling in 1946 and early 1947. Finally, these MI6 officers came to New York. They were met by Bill Donovan and Prescott Bush and a handful of other swells from, you know, Wall street and the OSS days. And with some, you know, pads of paper, they came up with a. With a centralized intelligence service that we called the CIA.
- [21:03]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, it's a fascinating history. I remember several texts that discuss the extreme influence, I guess you could say, from British intelligence on how to structure it, how to set it up. Several early figures were very, very well trained by the British like Frank Wisner. He's a massive student. Yeah, massive student of British counterintelligence. But in terms of like going back to Gladio real quick, you know, a lot of writers conceive of this as a template, something that is not just about, you know, setting up networks within Europe that would stave off a Soviet NKVD style takeover, but also perhaps trained terrorist terror cells that could be activated later on. Now we know that perhaps Gladio probably ended, but maybe other types of operations or templates that some authors, I think Doug Valentine and others can. Yeah, yeah, they connect these types of operations to the template of Iran Contra training. You know, the right wing death squads there and also isis, Al Qaeda, Al Qaeda type training that you would get, you know, under Brzezinski and Carter and Gates in the late 70s, early 80s for the, for the Soviet situation. Do you think that's accurate? Is that exaggerated? Is it a template that's used? One last point. I remember reading Miles Copeland's book Game of nations, and he was discussing that in his time in Egypt and in Syria when he was a consultant to the governments there. Obviously, he says, I was working for the CIA. He says we would use terrorists all the time. He says they're great patsies and dupes. I'm not saying that the CIA runs every terror operation, but he says it's a very useful tool in the toolkit. Is that accurate? Is this exaggerated as well? Is it a template that's kind of a way to structure Iran Contra isis Gladia?
- [22:58]
John Kiriakou
Oh, yeah. No, it's not exaggerated. And, and I would actually take issue with his statement that, that they're, they're dupes. They're not dupes. They're partners. They're, they're compensated handsomely. And you know, you, you bank of, you bank a favor that way.
- [23:17]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
I think he's saying the person who goes in and actually blows himself up as the dupe, but totally. But maybe the handlers are not dupes.
- [23:25]
John Kiriakou
No, no, I, I'm with you on that. Yes, I misunderstood. Yeah, that, that would be the, the dupe. I mean, even somebody like me, that, that was not really my world. At the CIA, I was strictly a counterterrorism officer, but even I had contact with organized crime overseas. And you know, we, we didn't give each other the warm and fuzzies and we didn't invite each other to dinner at each other's homes or introduce each other to, to our respective wives, but, but we shook hands and money exchanged hands and, and you know, I got what I wanted. And he got what he wanted and. And then we never saw each other again. So that's, that's actually quite a common event. There's risk, of course, because you're, you're dealing with people who, you know, in some cases are, are stone cold killers. And you need to trust them to a point where they do what you're paying them to do. The initial encounter is what's the most dangerous. I think I have told a story. I was dealing with an organized crime figure overseas in the Middle east, and there was a French intelligence officer dealing with him as well. And the French intelligence officer one day was just found dead in a ditch on the side of the road. And so we had to all meet. Like, should I go to the next meeting? Are they going to kill me at the next meeting? I don't know. I said, I don't think he's going to kill me. I think he trusts me. So I go to the next meeting. It was very tense. It turned out to be our last meeting. And as I was walking out, he says to me, oh, by the way. And I turned and I looked at him and he said, your French friend, very bad tradecraft. And I wasn't really sure what to make of that other than the fact that he was admitting to me that he had killed the French intelligence officer. I don't know why he didn't try to kill me, but, but yeah, that kind of thing happens all the time. It's, it's a calculated risk that you take and, you know, if the, if the gain, the potential gain is greater than the potential risk, sure, you go forward and you're very happy to meet with criminals
- [25:39]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
in regard to terror again, you being expert at the CIO on counterterrorism, dealing with that. I think we, in the world of alternative media, we tend to think immediately. When you see, when you hear the word terror, you immediately think false flag. You think staged, you think engineered. Certainly not every event is staged or engineered, something like that. There, there are organic believers in radical ideologies, but we also have this reality too, of, of false flag events. If we were to think back over the last, say, century or last several decades, how or how many instances would you guess? Or if you had to do a percentage or some. Just speculation, right? Like, do you think most save on
- [26:27]
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- [26:58]
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- [27:28]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Major terror events have a kind of connection to a state or to some other type of entity or, or is it organic?
- [27:37]
John Kiriakou
Now that's a good, that's a good question. That's a tough question. You know what I, I'm gonna have to say, oh, I'm gonna take a lot of shit for this. I'm gonna have to say that, yes, I think most of them probably are connected to a state in some ways. Geez, I hate, I hate coming off as a conspiracy theorist, but when you, when you dig down into some of these operations, I mean, look at 9 11, right? I mean, 911 was carried out by al Qaeda. We know that 100. I'm more than, I'm 1,000% confident 911 was carried out by Al Qaeda. But who was behind Al Qaeda? Right. Clearly it was the Saudi government. And I believe very strongly that the Israelis knew exactly what was going to happen, exactly when it was going to happen. But it was to Israel's benefit that the United States be attacked so that the US would respond by killing 2 million Muslims over the next 20 years. Which is exactly what we did. We created chaos in Iraq and chaos in Syria and chaos in Libya and now chaos in Iran. And that's to Israel's benefit. So I think in many, many cases, yeah, there's a state behind it. And I'll add one thing. I've talked about this publicly many times, but on the night that we captured Abu Zubaydah In March of 2002, we caught him in a safe house in Faisalabad, Pakistan. One of the things that we confiscated that night was his diary. And so I was with him for the first 56 consecutive hours of his captivity. I tied him to the hospital bed. He had surgery to treat three gunshot wounds. We shot him. The pakistanis shot him while he was trying to escape that night. And so I was so sleepy, I was afraid I was going to fall asleep and he was going to escape somehow. So I tore up a sheet, I tied him to the bed. And I'm just sitting there at the foot of the bed like this, just kind of staring at him for most of the 56 hours. But one of the things that we confiscated that night in the raid was his diary. And so I started leafing through the diary and it made my hair stand up. Most of it was silly, most of it was doodles. He was an accomplished sketch artist. Like I would pay money for some of the drawings that he did.
- [30:01]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
It would have been funny if the doodles were like a high school teenage girl's doodles.
- [30:05]
John Kiriakou
Right, right. With hearts over the letter I and stuff like that. No, terrorist.
- [30:12]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Terrorist with a heart of gold.
- [30:13]
John Kiriakou
Seriously misunderstood. He wrote a lot of poetry, much of it which was quite good. He wrote letters to his younger self, which I found fascinating. And this led to a split between the CIA and the FBI where the FBI said he was a madman and the CIA said, no, he's, he's extraordinarily intelligent. The CIA turned out to be correct on that. He would write these letters to himself like it was the, the 27 year old Abu Zubaydah or the 30 year old Abu Zubaydah writing to the 14 year old Abu zubaydah saying, treat our mother with respect, you were rude to her today. Don't whistle at those girls. You're a Muslim Muslim, you shouldn't whistle at girls, you know, stuff like that. But what I also saw in the, in the diary were three cell phone numbers and they were to three members of the saudi royal family. Why in God's name would someone that we believed at the time was the number three in al qaeda? He wasn't the number three, but he was a bad guy. He had established and staffed Al qaeda's two training camps in southern afghanistan as well as al qaeda's safe house in peshawar, the house of martyrs. Why would he have the personal cell phone numbers of three Saudi princes? And so we went to the Saudis and we said, take care of this or we're going to take care of it. And you're not going to like the way we take care of it. The next thing you know, one of these princes dies on the operating table during bariatric surgery. They're all fat pigs. The second prince is killed in a one car accident. On the Riyadh to Jeddah highway. And the third prince goes camping in the desert and dies of thirst. So, yeah, that tells me that the last thing they wanted was for the CIA to snatch these guys and to start interrogating them. Which then of course led me to believe that the Saudi government was involved in 9 11.
- [32:22]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, I mean, so many things point that way. We even had that admission, what was it, five or six years ago? Right. They came out and said, okay, yeah, we declassified what was the 16 pages of.
- [32:32]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, it turns out the Saudi 28 pages.
- [32:34]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, the Saudis said they have a key role. Turns out, which many people theorized and suspected. And. And that's our ally. Right. That's not a, you know, terror state, but it's supposedly also one of the
- [32:48]
John Kiriakou
greatest funders in the Middle east, but
- [32:50]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
it's a funder of terror.
- [32:51]
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- [33:23]
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- [33:24]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
No problem. Anyone can shine on TikTok.
- [33:27]
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- [33:29]
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- [33:37]
John Kiriakou
Yeah.
- [33:38]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Say that again on the topic of Saudi Arabia. And I don't want to get too far afield, but just made me think of this. I remember reading recently that Kissinger back in the 1970s had a very important role in restructuring how the petrodollar would function in the world. And that there was an intentional shifting away from using US oil or native oil here to put us in reliance on foreign oil like Saudis and others to give us then an excuse to. I thought this was a really big cunning genius sort of conspiracy plot here of a villain. So now that now we have an excuse for foreign policing because we're tied to the oil that we get from all these other countries. And we heard recently with Trump, right. That we've got to do all this photo. We have to get the oil.
- [34:32]
John Kiriakou
We've got oil.
- [34:36]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
We gotta take the oil. Well, don't we have a lot of oil here? I thought Trump ran on that. Right.
- [34:41]
John Kiriakou
We've got so much sitting on an ocean of oil.
- [34:45]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
But now we have to police the world over oil. Is it a plausible theory that Kissinger and I've heard read via the Bilderberg meetings at that time, that they sort of planned out the petrodollar as a excuse for future world police?
- [35:00]
John Kiriakou
I think that's exactly what happened. I think that's exactly what happened. And we're seeing, you know, still the effects today, 50 years after that policy was. Was enacted. You know, I've got a friend, a former CIA friend, who left the CIA and went into. He's one of these genius engineers. And so he left the CIA and he went to work for one of the big oil companies. And he said something to me that was so interesting. He said, it's not cost effective to frack for oil if oil is at $60 a barrel or lower. Okay, if it's over 60, fracking is cost effective, it's profitable. Everybody's going to want to do it. Okay, well, oil is, what, $115 a barrel right now? And we're fracking a little bit. But what are we doing with the fracked oil? We're sending it to Japan. We sell all that oil to Japan. So why would we export our own oil and import Middle Eastern oil? Because that's exactly what we do. Well, we do it to maintain that tie to the Middle East. And as much as I hate Henry Kissinger, and I really do, the butcher of Cyprus, the Butcher of Chile, the Butcher of Cambodia, I hate Henry Kissinger. He was telling us the truth when he said that. That, that this, this policy as. As awful as it may seem, as. As calculating and cunning as it may seem, it's. It's a reality of American foreign policy. It really is. Yeah. And let's see. If you don't mind, Jay. Oh, feel free just to speak a minute about Venezuela. How does Venezuela fit in or not fit into this? Venezuela is different. It's separate. Venezuela's oil is so dirty, it is so high in sulfur that it can only be refined at specialty refineries where they inject tons of chemicals to try to purify it. Even still, you can't purify it enough to turn it into gasoline. And these, These refineries exist right now, for the most part, only in. In South Florida. The Chinese built one recently, the Indians built one. But for the most part, the only refineries that can handle this really dark, heavy oil are in Florida. And the oil is used only for home heating oil. So when we talk about oil and international oil and opec, of which Venezuela is a member of. We have to keep Venezuela sort of off to the side because it's a different issue from a foreign policy perspective.
- [38:02]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, that's a great point too, because I think people don't, we don't think about these different regions having very, very different, you know, ways that they fit into the global, you know, system. But I do want to ask you too about briefly here because you've had such a. There's so many places we could go. You've had such an adventuresome life. And I've listened to you many times tell the stories of when you were stationed in Greece and you were dealing with the left. And the first thing that came to my mind was in, in the case of these leftist organizations that one of which I think, you know, tried to have you unalived, shall we say. And feel free to rehearse that story if you'd like, because I think this audience may not have heard it. But the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear this kind of stuff is who, who, who funds these things. Like, I've never even heard of this left Greek, this organization that was radical left. And we always look to the money to see, you know, who's funding, who's pushing this. Who would fund such a thing and why would it be Soviet? I mean, the cold war is kind of coming to an end. Like, who would be behind that?
- [39:12]
John Kiriakou
Oh my God, I could talk about this for the next two hours. I'm going to make it short. So the group you're talking about is called Revolutionary Organization 17 November. God, where do I even begin? Okay, let's talk about, about. I'll tell you the first time we ever heard of the 17th of November. In October of 1975, the CIA named a new station chief in Athens. His name was Richard Welch. Dick welch was a philhellene. He was a lover of all things Greek. He had a degree in the classics. He spoke ancient Greek, he spoke modern Greek. He got a master's degree in archaeology. This guy just loved, loved, loved everything Greece. And he's named CIA station chief in Athens. So he arrives six weeks later on December 23, 1975. He's invited to the U. S. Ambassador's Christmas party. He and his wife go to the, go to the ambassador's Christmas party in their, in their chauffeur driven car. They have a good time by all accounts. And at the end of the party, they drive back to their house in a very close, in Very high end suburb of Athens called Psihico. These are the days before automatic door openers or gate openers. So the driver pulls up to the gate and gets out of the car to open the gate to drive into the property. There's a car parked directly across the street. There are three men and a woman inside the car. We never identified the woman. Two of the men get out of the car and one of them shouts in Greek, richard Welch, get out of the car. Dick gets out of the car. And Mrs. Welch gets out of the car. The driver runs for his life. One of the men says, richard Welch, you have been found guilty of crimes against the Greek people, and you've been sentenced to death. And then shoots him three times in the chest with a.45 caliber semi automatic handgun that became known as the Welch.45. They killed 18 more people with that same gun between 1975 and 2002. They then got back in the car and drove away. The Greek police were so inept that the killers had to call the cops a week ago and say, you idiots, the getaway car we left abandoned at the intersection of this street and that street. Go get it. In the meantime, the killers wrote a manifesto. Now, this became a theme. They would write a manifesto at almost every attack over the next 27 years. But this manifesto, they. They sent to a sympathizer in Paris. And the sympathizer in Paris hand delivered it to the French philosopher Jean Paul Sartre. Sartre read it and said, what is this craziness? And he literally put it in a desk drawer and forgot about it. A year later, the former chief of the Greek National Police, a man named Malios, he had been the chief of. Of the Greek National Police during the military dictatorship. And he was a. He was a deeply hated torturer. He would leave his apartment every single day at the same time and buy a newspaper and go to the coffee shop and drink coffee. And this one day in April of 2000. I'm sorry, in April of 1976, he came out of his apartment. There was a man and a woman there making out. And he told us later on his deathbed that he smiled when he saw them and he thought to himself, young love in the spring. As soon as he walked past them, the man pulled out the Welch.45 and shot him three times in the back. He lived for two hours. And the description he gave of the shooter matched Mrs. Welch's description of the shooter in her husband's assassination. They sent another manifesto to Jean Paul Sartre. So Sartre receives it. Actually, Sartre didn't receive it.
- [43:49]
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- [44:21]
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- [45:17]
John Kiriakou
Henri Lavis what's his name? Bernard Henri Levy, who is today France's most famous philosopher and poet and was Sartre's assistant at the time. He said, wait a minute, we've received something like this before, and he found the original one in the desk. And then he sent them both to Liberation magazine, or newspaper. It's the leftist newspaper in Paris. They published them. That put 17 November on the map. 17 November was named after the date in 1974 when there was a student uprising at the Athens Polytechnic University, where the the military dictatorship in its in its final death throes opened fire with tanks on unarmed students and, to hear the students tell it, killed 500. To hear the fascists tell it, they killed three dozen. We'll never know. They destroyed most of the bodies. But that put the 17th of November on the map. You ask a very, very important question. Where did they get the money? We just assumed in 1975 that these guys were tied to the KGB. But we had a long standing agreement with the KGB. You don't kill Our guys. And we don't kill your guys, we try to recruit each other's guys, but no killing. And the, the Russians came to us and they said, listen, this was not us. It just was not us. And then the Bulgarians proactively came to us and said, we promise this was not us and we can tell you it was not the Soviets. We couldn't figure out who it was. So how did they get their money? How did they self finance? They would rob banks and post offices. Now remember, these were the days when everything was done in cash, everything. And they would just rob banks and post offices in broad daylight. And then they would raid police stations in the middle of the night, grab the handful of cops that were on duty, tie them up, hold them hostage, steal all of their weapons and all of their ammunition. And just to add insult to injury, there is a large military museum in Athens, right in the center of Athens. The Greeks are very proud of it. And in the 1980s, some, somebody who was a member of the 17th of November went into the, the military museum and realized that none of the weapons on display had been deactivated. They were all live weapons on display, rocket launchers, machine guns. So they went. One day a group of four terrorists went just as the museum opened, took everybody hostage, and then just took all of these live weapons off the wall. And then a couple of months later, they raided a military weapons depot in Larisa in central Greece and stole all the ammunition needed for the weapons that they stole from the military museum. So they self financed, they self armed, and then there were specialty weapons that they somehow came into the possession of. And that's where I came in. I was able to identify analytically a connection between 17 November and Carlos the Jackal. And if your viewers don't know who Carlos the Jackal was, he was the Osama bin laden of the 1970s and 80s. He was the most feared terrorist on the planet. He was a Venezuelan communist named Ilyich Ramirez Sanchez. And he went by Carlos the, the media dubbed him Carlos the Jackal, loosely based on the book that led to the movie the Day of the Jackal. And, and Carlos provided the group with the weapons that they needed that they couldn't steal in 2000. I was stationed in Greece from 1998 to 2000 and my entire reason for being in Greece was to infiltrate and destroy the 17th of November. We promised Mrs. Welch in 1975 we would find her husband's killers and we would bring them to justice. And we meant it. It took 27 years. But I took delivery of a fully armored, level four armored BMW 540. My next door neighbor was the newly arrived British defense attache, Stephen Saunders. Brigadier General, one star. I liked Stephen a lot, but he was a media. Anytime he saw a camera, he would run right in front of it and offer up a interview. And he just loved being on tv. We happen to be invited to a cocktail party the night of, the day that I took delivery of the, of the new car. And I was standing with Stephen, with the American defense attache and the French defense attache. And Stephen was making fun of me because of my new car. As I said, we live next door to. Not next door, but our backyard's abutted. And he says to me, you Americans, you're so paranoid about security. He said, this is an EU country, it's a NATO country. What are you so afraid of? And everybody starts to chuckle. And I said to him, you Brits live in a dream world. If you think that because they have pretty beaches and palm trees that they're not going to kill you if they have the chance, believe me, if they have the chance, they're going to kill you. And then we all laughed again. To make a long story short, two weeks later, they killed him. And they killed him in broad daylight during the morning rush. They finally issued a manifesto several months afterwards in which they specifically said that they set out that morning to kill me, but that I was driving an armored car and they knew that I was armed. And it said. And so we elected to carry out the revolutionary sentence on the war criminal Saunders. And so that killing, everybody liked Stephen. That killing was what began to change public opinion. 17 November would attack. They killed the Turkish ambassador, the Turkish deputy Ambassador, they killed the head of the Federal Tax Office, they killed the Governor of the Central bank, they killed the Minister of Finance, they killed the Minister of Communications. But they were largely seen as Robin Hood, right? Oh, taxes were raised. They set fire to six tax offices and then murder the head of the tax service. And people are like, oh, okay, well, they're for the poor people. No, they're not for the poor people. It's an armed criminal gang is all it is. So in 2002, in April of 2002, a man was walking in Paras with a. With a paper bag, like a grocery bag, carrying a bomb. And he was going to put the bomb underneath the car of a billionaire ship owner. And the bomb went off. It blew off both of his hands and blew out his right eye. And as he was bleeding to death, A policeman runs across the street, takes off his own shirt to staunch the blood squirting out of his stumps, and the guy confesses to being the 17th of November's chief bomber. He names all the members of the 17th of November and he gives the address of the safe house where all the weapons are stored. And then he survived. And so the Greeks were able to arrest all of them. The three most prominent members received sentences of 1,765 years in prison. The only two things that the cops were never able to recover were the old school typewriter that they used to type the Manifestos and the Welch 45. It's out there somewhere. But anyway, they were unusual in that the Soviet Union was far too liberal for them. They were old school Stalinists. They wanted you to fall into line or face death. And they saw themselves as the ones to carry out that policy.
- [54:22]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
I wanted to ask you about Day of the Jackal because, and this is something that I've only recently sort of got hips to, and that's because there were some articles written recently that Candace Owens shared that kind of tied into the possibility of French Foreign Legion and this kind of stuff. I don't have any theory on that. I don't ascribe to all of her theories, but there was an interesting article written by a French analyst about the possibility that there are actual hit squads and they might be considered French, but they might not actually be French. They might actually be other Middle Eastern countries that are actually behind some of these hits. And I know this in the French. Huh?
- [55:05]
John Kiriakou
They're French.
- [55:06]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Well, I don't doubt that. But, but what I'm saying is that I know there might, there are people that theorize that, that Israel had a role in the background of some of these French operations. Not just banking, but also other things that are going on in France that not many people are very hip to. But I wanted to ask you about that, the, the, the situation with Day of the Jackal, because that, of course, that story is about de Gaulle. And I'm curious.
- [55:33]
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- [56:05]
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- [56:34]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
So you're saying that Carlos the Jackal is the name came from that? Is that what you're saying?
- [56:41]
John Kiriakou
Yeah. It's a funny thing. It's one of these chicken or egg situations where Carlos was almost caught in a raid on his friend's apartment in Brussels. His friend was not a terrorist and didn't realize that Carlos. That his friend Ilyich was Carlos. Right. Although he was not yet known as Carlos. Anyway, the cops raid the apartment. Carlos is already gone. And a French photojournalist took pictures of. Of like every inch of the apartment. And it turned out that the Belgian guy was reading the book the Day of the Jackal, and it was on the side table. And so the, the French journalist just decided to call this unnamed terrorist. We didn't yet know it was Ilyich Ramirez Sanchez, to call him the Jackal. And then it just so happened that a book that was next to the Day of the Jackal was written by a Spanish. I, I forget his name now, but his first name was Carlos. And so this French reporter just made it up out of whole cloth. Carlos the Jackal. And then we, we learned later, we learned later Carlos was like, where the fuck did this name come from? I don't like this name. Why are they calling me Carlos? And what's this Jackal thing? Why are they calling me the Jackal? I'll tell you. I met Carlos in 2000. It took me over a year to get permission to see him. He's. He's serving a life without parole sentence in France for the murder of seven French policemen. I. I had. I had gone to see his ex wife, Magdalena cop in Germany. They. They share a daughter and she. She dropped out of terrorism. She just. She had had enough and she just dropped out. She had done time in prison. She was like, enough. And she quit. So I begged her to write to Carlos and tell him that. That I really did need to talk to him. I wasn't going to. You know, I'm not trying to get him in trouble. I only want to know about the Greeks. And it took over a year. And then of course, the French insisted that they had to be there. So I go to Paris. I meet up with the French, we take a train. The prison was like, I don't know, 40 minutes outside of town. And we finally get into the prison to see Carlos. And I said, thank you for seeing me. I'm John Kiriakou. I'm from the CIA. We promised Mrs. Welch that we would, you know, find her husband's killers. It's been 25 years, etc. Etc. And he. He listened and he's nodding and he's nodding and I said, all I want to know is who were the Greeks? Just give us the names of the Greeks. Give us one name. Just someone that. That would lead me to the killers. And he goes, you. And then he just got up and walked away from the, you know, one of those plexiglass things. He just got up and walked away. And that was the end of it. He never gave us anything. Two years later, it didn't matter. And he's still in. In prison. He'll die in prison. He's well into his 70s now. Utterly unrepentant, unapologetic. This is a guy for. For those of your viewers who. Who don't know any of the background, this is a guy who kidnapped literally every oil minister from every OPEC country during an OPEC summit. There was an OPEC summit taking place in Vienna, Austria. He and his gang raided the meeting site and they kidnapped every member of OPEC at the same time. And the Saudis paid him something like a billion dollars to let everybody go. It was Carlos that worked with Gaddafi to set up these training camps in Libya where the pflp, the pflpgc, the dflp, Abu Nidal, the ira, Popular Revolutionary Struggle, they all sent their people there to be trained at these camps in the desert. Carlos was the money guy and Carlos was the weapons guy. Carlos was working with the Romanians and the Bulgarians. You know, they were producing gigantic amounts of weapons and ammunition and just selling them on the gray market. It was Carlos that. That had the relationship with the Eastern Europeans to buy the AK47s and the hand grenades and the land mines and the bullets and then sell them to these groups through the Libyans. It was all very complicated and in my mind, absolutely fascinating, you know, minus 9, 11, I would have spent the rest of my career just working against these groups.
- [61:50]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
That's. That's what I find it fascinating too. Because again, it seems rare, at least in my limited reading and research, that this type of a person is, is organic or alone. You know, weapons trafficker, whatever terrorist person. There's usually networks, there's people behind them, there's money and power.
- [62:11]
John Kiriakou
You're right.
- [62:12]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
So who, who's who, Is he just out for his own gain or was he a true believer in a kind of Leninist perspective?
- [62:21]
John Kiriakou
You know, for him it was a combination of, of pure Marxist ideology and, and money, you know. I'm going to tell you one other story about Carlos. I've spoken a number of times about. A guy that I used to work with at the Agency was a legendary contractor named Billy Wa G H Billy was one short of the US record. He had 17 Purple Hearts from World War II, Korea and Vietnam. He was a stone cold killer. One of these guys that would go into a village in Vietnam and just mow down every living thing. So he was a longtime CIA contractor. He and I worked very closely together. It was actually just the two of us in the Middle east before 9 11. We did this long term operation together. But anyway, he told me the most fascinating story. The details in a biography about him that his niece wrote differ a little, but the core of the story is the same. The way he told it to me was, was thusly he was assigned to the CIA station in Khartoum, Sudan. And you know, it was one of Those situations pre 911 where you got to work seven days a week, but every once in a while, just so you don't go crazy, you have to take a day off and sleep in. So there's one day he and another guy from the station go to the vegetable market just to buy some vegetables. And he said he's there buying vegetables and he looks over and he sees the only other white man that he ever saw in Khartoum. And he's looking at this white guy in the vegetable market. And he says to his buddy, that's Carlos the Jackal. And his friend says, get the fuck out of here. He said, I'm telling you, that's Carlos the Jackal. And then Carlos kind of got away in the crowd. They run back to the station. Cofer Black, who became the director of Counterterrorism and then later became Ambassador Cofer Black and the chairman of Blackwater after that. Cofer was the station chief at the time. And Billy says he ran into Cover's office. Cofer's on an elliptical machine in the, in the office. And he says, kofer, I just came from the Vegetable market. And I saw Carlos the Jackal. And Kofer says, get the out of here. Carlos the Jackal. What in the world would Carlos be doing in Sudan, of all places? You're. You're nuts. He said, I'm telling you, it was Carlos. So he says, well, we can't just cable headquarters and say, carlos the Jackals in Khartoum. We need proof. You got to get a picture of him. Billy went back to the vegetable market every single day for. For a month, and then he saw him again. So what they did is they paid these two Sudanese guys to get into a fist fight. And, you know, in Africa and the Middle east, fighting is very, very rare. So two guys start duking it out. A big circle forms around them. Everybody wants to get a look. And so that's what happens. And Carlos, kind of a little guy, he runs over to get a look, and he's kind of craning his neck to see, you know, who's fighting, what's going on. And Billy's there just going, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click, click. They send the film back to headquarters, and they said, oh, my God, it's Carlos the Jackal. But he had the presence of mind after the fight to follow Carlos discreetly to his house. So they were able to identify the house. They initiated an operation where Carlos was deemed. Was made to be unconscious temporarily. And when Carlos woke up, he was on a French military plane on the way to Paris. And he's been. He's been in prison ever since.
- [66:29]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
I. I mean, these. These stories are awesome. I love hearing these kind of stories, and they're not told enough on that point. And again, this is for the sake of the audience, and I'd like to see what. What you think about this now, reflecting back to your younger days. Why does the US Care what an organization of leftists are doing in Greece? Why are you there in Greece? I know you're Greek, but I'm saying
- [66:59]
John Kiriakou
we wouldn't have cared had they not been murdering Americans. They killed the CIA station chief. They killed two US Defense attaches, Bill Nordein and. And George Santis. Bill Nordine. The bomb that killed. That they used to kill Bill Nordine was so big that we found Nordine's head on the roof of the next door neighbor's house. They meant business. They shot and gravely wounded the US DEA rep in the embassy. They shot and killed a hapless Air Force technical sergeant, an African American guy named Ron Stewart. He was just doing his laundry. They shot him and killed him in the laundry room of his apartment building. And the Greek public hated that too, because he was black. They were like, come on, this man's oppressed in his own country, and that's the guy that you kill. So it was because they were actively targeting Americans that. That we went after them like we did.
- [68:03]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
But I guess to. To think about the Cold War setting, and I know this is a kind of. This may sound like a stupid question, but my context for this question is not stupidity. If I read, say, Brzezinski, right, Brzinski, in between two ages, he's got this footnote where he talks about Professor Anthony Sutton and he quotes Sutton about the buildup of the Soviet Union. And we find other references here and there in literature to certain figures that might have played or attempted to play both sides during the Cold War. We think about Robert Maxwell. We think about an arm and Hammer. We think about. Some people have theorized Lord Victor Rothschild was not just British intelligence, but might have also been passing intelligence to the Soviets.
- [68:46]
John Kiriakou
And on the other side, Nicolae Ceausescu.
- [68:49]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, there seems to be quite a few instances where we're fighting this enemy that's also aided and propped up in many cases. And perhaps the Cold War, according to, say, Dr. Quigley, was a bit exaggerated. Right. In other words, the First National Security. The memorandum that kicks off the Cold War that Stalin is building up, is it exaggerated or is it plausible that the Cold War is real but also, at a certain level, perhaps desired?
- [69:23]
John Kiriakou
Oh, I think you've hit it on the head. I think that's exactly what the case was. Yeah, sure. You know, historically, here in the United States, Jay, we. We've always needed an ism to be opposed to. You know, in the. In the nineteen teens, it was anarchism, and then it was communism, and then it was socialism, and later on it became Islamism. I mean, there's always something that we need to rally against, but at the same time, that's how, you know, the deep state is able to justify its budgets. This isn't anything that's new. It's been going on for more than a century. Sure. You have to rally Americans against something.
- [70:08]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
You know, it's like Smelly Butler said a long time ago, wars racket, right?
- [70:12]
John Kiriakou
Oh, yeah.
- [70:12]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
It would seem to me as well that World War I and World War II, although they're obviously tragedies or serious problems with ideologies, but again, it's almost like there's a dialectical control where you want to have the opposition to justify the Existence. We just saw this, for example, this week or last week, excuse me, with the case that they're going to put against the SPLC of, you know, sending significant amounts of money to people heading up these obviously fake cutout groups, the ridiculous groups, but also the head of the guy, you know, the unite the right guy at Charlottesville that I think many of us thought even at the time this is kind of a silly kind of honey trap type of situation. And it would be really foolish, I think, to be involved in that kind of stuff and perhaps even similar situations with J6, although I don't think that's come up yet in the, the case with splc. But a similar kind of template of fomenting, hyping up, causing funding, the opposition in not every case, but in many cases. And that's why I think, you know, not many people really talk about this in regard to the Cold War, that we might have had very wealthy people in the west and perhaps banking elites who wanted to put money into communism, socialism and perhaps even fascism too, according to Sutton, because as you said, it justifies a lot of what we do. And there's a lot of resource extraction, there's a lot of geopolitical, tactical, you know, bases that can be set up and you expose. By the way, I want to say maybe I'm not right about this, but I remember years ago in the 2000s when I was trying to really study a lot of this stuff in depth, I remember seeing all of a sudden articles popping up, maybe 2,000, 8, 9, 10, 11 CIA black sites exposed. They're in the news. Suddenly we've got this place in Romania, this black site.
- [72:05]
John Kiriakou
Right.
- [72:05]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
I think people probably thought that these things existed, but then suddenly we knew that they did exist. And you called a lot of that out. Yeah, that's why you got persecuted. Could you explain perhaps to those that are not familiar with your story, and I think you're a hero for what you did.
- [72:22]
Safeway/Albertsons Announcer
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- [72:53]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Why? Yeah, why? Why? Why? Why? Call this out. Why are we doing this? What's the justification from the establishment's perspective?
- [73:04]
John Kiriakou
Oh, the. The justification from the establishment's perspective was that we needed to do literally everything to protect Americans, even if what we were doing broke the law. And my position was we're either going to be a nation of laws or we're not. We can't be both. You can't. Ronald Reagan called the United States a shining city on a hill, a beacon of hope for human rights and civil rights and civil liberties. I want that to be true. And so you can't be that shining city on a hill and have a torture program and a secret prison program and an illegal rendition program and torture people to death and then just dig a ditch next to the torture chamber and dump their body in the ditch and then talk about how you support human rights. So we're gonna have to either pick one or the other. And I came down on the side of law and order. I mean, I hate to sound like an ideologue, but I came down on the side of the rule of law. There was. I blew the whistle on the CIA's torture program in December of 2007. And I said three things. I said the CIA was torturing its prisoners, that torture was official US Government policy, and that the policy had been personally approved by the President, and I was prosecuted for that. I wish that I had blown the whistle on the secret prison program. There was a woman, she was a. A contemporary of mine at the Agency, and I. I respected her deeply. She swears that she was not the one who blew the whistle, so I won't use her name, but she was working at the White House right after. Right around the time I got arrested. And she was escorted out of the White House by the Secret Service. And they took her badge and told her never to come back. And then she was forcibly retired from the CIA. They said they leaked that she had blown the whistle on the. Well, they didn't say blow the whistle, that she had leaked information about the existence of the secret prisons. She swore that it wasn't her. And in. In private conversations, she swore to me that it wasn't her. And I said, well, if it was you, then you are one of the great heroes of. Of the early part of the 21st century. And she swore it wasn't her. But I. I don't know. I was just one of those guys that believed that we were the good guys. And if we're the good guys, then we have to act like the good guys. If you want to be for torture. You can be for torture, but you have to change the law. You can't just pretend that the law doesn't exist or that because you're the good guy, it doesn't exist for you that nobody else can torture, but you can. And so I said, no, enough is enough. And I said something
- [76:15]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
I've heard you and many others, and I think it was you. I don't want to misquote you if it wasn't you, but this is often said that, you know, when people say, what. What is espionage? What are we doing in all these other countries? The answer is usually given something like, we are doing illegal activities in other countries legally, or something like that.
- [76:36]
John Kiriakou
Yeah.
- [76:37]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
How do you. How do you balance, as you're, say, being trained and going into this world, the idea, on the one hand that there's all these legalities which, which you mentioned quite often in interviews, you mentioned, for example, Tucker, that, you know, certain people in the agency couldn't have public support for this or that candidate Bob Dole or whoever. Right. But at the same time, we've got this situation where we've got to go in other countries and do illegal things under the COVID of legality. How do you balance that as you're going through that and then make the sort of conscious decision to say, well, in this case now, the torture program is. I'm not defending it. I'm just saying, like, I'm curious as to your process as you're working through these issues.
- [77:23]
John Kiriakou
You go into a job like that really believing that you're the good guys. You really believe it. And you understand from. From your very first day that your job is to break the laws of foreign countries, not to break the laws of the United States. That is forbidden. I remember my. One of my early bosses telling me, don't ever lie to finance medical or security. They can ruin your life. Don't ever lie to a judge. And he said, and don't ever lie to me. Everybody else you can lie to. Everybody's lying all day long. You know, the. The old cliche, how do you know when a CIA officer is lying? His lips are moving. So, yeah, I believed that. You know, we go overseas and we lie, we commit espionage, we convince other people to commit espionage, or to kill con. To commit treason for us, because we're the good guys. But then when we're violating the Federal Torture act of 1946, when we're violating the United Nations Convention Against Torture, which we. Which we wrote and has the force of law because it was ratified by the United States Senate. Nobody ever said we could violate the law in the United States. You know, if. If I go overseas, I'm going to use 1949 as, as an example. If I go overseas and I receive a cable saying, hey, listen, the. The polls say that the Communists are going to win the Italian election, so steal the election for the conservatives, I'd say, okay, and then I spend $150,000 recruiting journalists and planting stories, and then, what do you know, the communists lose. Well, I would sleep very well that night because I'm the good guy and the communists are the bad guys. And so I did what my job is. But if the order is to overthrow the American government or to influence an American election or torture someone in violation of American law, absolutely never. Never. Because then we're not the good guys anymore. Like, did we learn nothing over the course of all these decades? Did we learn nothing from Watergate, for example, Nothing from Iran Contra? So you got to put your foot down.
- [80:01]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
You know, you often hear from establishment types when this topic is brought up. Well, if we don't, they will. I remember reading. I remember reading decades ago, or, excuse me, a book written decades ago. I think it was John Marx's book about the Manchurian Candidate in MK Ultra. And the argument was made at that time, if we do not engage in these testing, experimentation projects, the Soviets will. If we don't do this, they will. Do you find that to be a flimsy justification? And why.
- [80:31]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, that's flimsy. Oh, my God, where should we even start? With MK Ultra and the sub. The sub operations of MK Ultra, MK Chick Wit and mk, Whatever it was called, Knight Rider or whatever it was called, I can't remember. There were like six of them. Imagine being in a meeting at the CIA and say, listen, there's this scientist in Switzerland and he just developed this thing called lsd and it does crazy. And we've heard that the Russians are developing expertise in mind control and ESP and what they called remote viewing and all this silliness that never came to pass. So we got to do the same thing because the Russians are doing it. In fact, the Russians weren't doing it, the Chinese were doing it, but we didn't have sources in China at the time. So you're in this meeting and a determination is made that, yes, we're going to do this. We're going to call it MK ultra. And what we're going to do is we're going to experiment on American citizens and we're never going to tell them we're experimenting on them. Better yet, let's start by experimenting on our own employees. And so they start dosing their own CIA employees with lsd. People are jumping out of windows and off of balconies and they're like, oh, no, we shouldn't do it on our own people. Let's just do it in, let's say, San Francisco. And then they go to San Francisco and they did a whole bunch of horrible illegal in San Francisco. Things like they recruited an army of prostitutes and they set up a safe house in San Francisco. And they said, go out and pick up a date. Bring him back to the safe house. We're going to dose him with LSD and then we're going to see if he'll give us his most deeply held secrets under the lsd. All it did was it just made people crazy. Then they said, you know what, maybe we should do something different. We should develop a germ. Let's develop a germ and we'll just release it into the air and see if it makes people sick. So they developed this germ. They waited until an unusually foggy day in San Francisco.
- [83:01]
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- [83:32]
John Kiriakou
And then they just drive around town in these pickup trucks with pipes releasing the germ into the fog. They knew it was successful when A week later, 11 people had gone to hospital emergency rooms with this really rare upper respiratory infection that we caused. Then they decided what it would be like. They wanted to know what it would be like if they could make like everybody in a town crazy. And so they put LSD in the flour that was supplied to the only bakery in a little village in France. The hapless baker, who had no idea that the, that the flour was full of lsd, made bread that day like he did every day, sold the bread to everybody in the village. Everybody in the village went nuts. There's even a Wikipedia page about this. That's the CIA. All of that was illegal. Now this was also very, very secret. Top secret until 1975. The, the church Committee on Capitol Hill, the Church Committee on the Senate side and the Pike Committee on the House side developed this information. And they called the CIA's leadership to come and testify under oath in public hearings. MK ULTRA was outed. And the Director of Central Intelligence, Dick Helms, Richard Helms, was specifically told by Senator Church, don't destroy the documents. He went back to the agency and told them, destroy all the documents. They destroyed 85% of the documents on MK Ultra. So what we know today about MK ULTRA comes from the 15% of the documents that survived the giant, you know, destruction. And that's why we don't have answers to so many of these questions. Dick Helms was held in contempt of Congress and he was fined a few hundred dollars. And then when he got back to the Agency after having taken a plea and having been fined, there was a parade of CIA employees standing in the hallway leading to his office, each one throwing in cash into a hat to pay his fine. They all looked out for each other.
- [86:05]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, it seems like, I mean, I don't want to say strictly speaking, a cult, but some people have written about it as if it's the quote, cult of Intelligence, like that's the Victor Marchetti book or maybe somebody else. But the idea being then that, you know, you're sort of bound to almost like a kind of a quasi secret society perhaps. Yeah, maybe that's an exaggeration idea.
- [86:28]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, no, you're right, it's the same idea.
- [86:31]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Briefly, little detour here because I want to have not heard you, you probably have commented. I just haven't heard it yet. You know, lately the government is, is seeming to give a nod at many levels to so called aliens and UFOs. I personally do not believe in aliens, but we do have a lot of bizarre stories and instances and advanced technology that seems to perhaps mirror or mimic some of these UFO phenomena. I'm curious what you think about that, because when I hear about aliens and UFOs and these stories, there could be something spiritual going on for sure. But it also reminds me of what happens if you have a bad LSD trip. So. Yeah, and on that topic of MK Ultra, it makes me wonder if, you know, there couldn't be. And I think there's definitely, you know, a deep state component to the UFO alien phenomenon. But also specifically in the descriptions of what people go through and how they describe these experiences. Do you think that there's any likelihood that this is sort of a propagated, intentional, perhaps mythology or idea that's being seeded or planted, that we are now under some sort of, you know, alien attack. Maybe you think that the, the phenomena is real? I don't know. Your view. Could there be an MK Ultra? I know it's defunct, but something akin to that that overlaps with the UFO alien phenomenon?
- [87:54]
John Kiriakou
Oh, it's absolutely possible. You know, I have to admit I'm of two minds on this issue. On the one hand, I. I long believed that these sightings that people have are largely explainable. And when they're not explainable, there's, I think, a likelihood that it's some kind of experimental technology. You know, Darpa is working 20 years ahead of everybody else and it's probably some top secret, you know, thing. On my very first day at the CIA, I had lunch with my new boss and I said, half jokingly, so where are the aliens? And he laughed and he said, that is the first question that every single one of us has on his first day. And I said, so what's the answer? And he said, we don't do any of that stuff. It's all at the Pentagon. He said, I have no idea what they are, where they are. Nobody here does. It's all at the Pentagon. With that said, I've told this story before, but I'll repeat it. When I was in high school, my mom and dad bought a restaurant in Sharon, Pennsylvania. We lived in Newcastle, Pennsylvania. So they're about 15 miles apart. And to go from Newcastle to Sharon, you have to go through Amish country. And the Amish don't use electricity, so it's very, very dark. One Friday night, my dad and I left the house because we were working midnight shift. We always worked midnight shift on Fridays and Saturdays. And we're driving through Amish country and there is this brilliant, like blinding flash of white light. And then there's a second flash and then a third flash. And we're both looking up at this thing like, what is that? And then this orange trapezoid lights up and it's just hovering about 1500ft off the ground in the shape of, I hate to say it, in the shape of a saucer. And I said, what is that? My dad pulls the car over. We get out of the car. We're standing there staring at this thing. A guy pulls up behind us, gets out of his car and he goes, what is that? And my dad said, I don't know. And then it goes at this fantastic speed that just defies, defied the laws of physics. Never made any sound. We stood there for at least another 30 seconds thinking, is it gonna come back or what? I don't know. So we get back in the car and I said to him, mind you, I was 17 at the time, so I didn't know any better. I said, so should we, like, call somebody? Should we call the cops or something? And he said, and say what? We saw a flying saucer and it flew away. He said, people are going to think we're insane. And so the only person I told was my mom the next day. Well, years later, I, not years later. A couple of years later, I come to school here in Washington. I had a cousin who was an F15 pilot. And I always looked up to him because he was older than me and, you know, he's a pilot and he's so cool. And I said to him, hey, listen, my dad and I saw this crazy thing once a couple of years ago, and I told him, and he said, oh, listen. He said, every one of us at the Air Force, he said, we all see like that all the time, and sometimes they come up out of the water off the coast of, of Norfolk. I said, what are they? He said, I don't know. He said, but they very well could be ours. It's just that he said, I'm not cleared to know what it is. I don't know what the heck it is. I said, well, what do you do when you see something like that? He said, we fill out a form, we send it to the Pentagon, and nobody ever hears about it again. So I, I don't know. I, I, I've never seen, you know, little green men or anything like that. I, I, I wonder too, if on the one hand I, I lean in the direction of some kind of futuristic advanced technology, right, that's being experimented with. On the other hand, I wonder if, let's say, it is something extraterrestrial. The government, all these years, hasn't wanted to panic us. Okay, well, guess what? Now all this video has been leaked from the Pentagon over the last five years, and nobody cares. And there hasn't been any panic, so why not just come out with it now and tell us what it is?
- [92:50]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, Interesting. Yeah, I, I feel very, very similarly about that topic. I do want to shift gears a little bit because there's so many hot topics I do want your take on. A lot of them are, unfortunately. I know this is selfish, but kind of my pet thoughts. That's why I want to bounce my, my theories and my thoughts off of you.
- [93:10]
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- [93:41]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Gordon Thomas wrote a fascinating book about Mossad called Gideon Spies many years ago who's a journalist. And there's several chapters that related to the Vatican and the Cold War. And the particularly the chapter on John Paul II was interesting because there were significant advancements that Israel was able to achieve in terms of recognition and influence through John Paul ii. On record. I don't think that's any, anything too controversial.
- [94:08]
John Kiriakou
Right.
- [94:08]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
There's a chapter he discussed, for example, the Vatican becoming hip to the Mossad, wanting to and trying to bug the Vatican. And then I noticed, you know, it's, it's if you look at the dates, not too long after that John Paul II did recognize the nation state of Israel as a political entity, which the Vatican had not done for many decades. And that to me is a window into the possibility of a backdoor connection or influence there. That might be pretty significant, geopolitically speaking, because you do have the Roman Catholic Church taking some pretty significant advances in terms of changing their attitudes towards the nation state of Israel and Rabbinic Judaism in the last several decades post Vatican ii. I'm curious, to what degree do you think that is a window into a influence campaign? Is it significant? Do you think that's plausible? And also there also seems to be significant admissions in that book and other books as well with related to Gladio that the CIA had a really close connection and perhaps even more than a connection, perhaps people on the hook to what the CIA wanted throughout the Cold War in regards to the Vatican.
- [95:21]
John Kiriakou
Yeah.
- [95:22]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Was that a trap to basically sort of have soft power influence through the Vatican?
- [95:28]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, it was, it was. That was always my understanding. Yes. There were old timers at the, at the agency when I first joined who took credit for making John Paul II Pope.
- [95:40]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
That this was what I've heard.
- [95:41]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, yeah. This was a political decision from the very beginning. It was done to weaken the Soviet Union. They knew that having a pope from, from Poland, which was a Soviet satellite state at the time, would, would reap untold benefits because it would distract the Soviets. And then at exactly the same time, the Solidarity movement took root in. Beginning in the Gdansk shipyard in Poland. And so there was no downside for the west to John Paul being Pope. If anything, this was like a gift and, and the recognition of Israel. I remember how controversial that was at the time. That was. That was just like an extra added freebie, you know, that. That we got on top of everything that we got with the Soviets. So, yeah, I think, I think that that was the case. John Paul.
- [96:38]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, go ahead.
- [96:39]
John Kiriakou
I'm sorry, go ahead.
- [96:40]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
I was just gonna say I remember, you know, a lot of the text will point to, you know, a pretty close relationship with Henry Kissinger.
- [96:46]
John Kiriakou
Yes.
- [96:46]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Even going back to Paul vi, having a very close relationship there, as well as William Casey, I think. And you had this period where there were pretty hardcore traditional Catholic people in the CIA, like Casey and others known as Templars, that were very committed to that alliance. And I suspect, and I wonder, I know that Leo has opposed Trump in recent months. And then there was this meeting where Cardinal Christoph back in January was at the White House. And there was these tense words supposedly said, and there's this story that they reminded Cardinal Christoph and Leo of the avenue and papacy and the power that the state can have. And I'm just. To me, I just thought that was a fascinating window into perhaps what's going on with not just the deep state, but the deep church and perhaps an influence in. In that structure.
- [97:39]
John Kiriakou
And, you know, there was a book published recently in the last, I'm going to say, year or two. And I, I apologize that I don't remember the title. Talking about the joint CIA Vatican operation to publish Dr. Zhivago and to make it available.
- [97:59]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
I didn't even know this. I heard you say this.
- [98:01]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, make it available to Soviet citizens at the International Book Fair in Brussels in, like, 1971 or whatever, whatever it was where you had. Even the KGB minders who had accompanied this delegation of Soviet citizens to the International Book Fair themselves were bringing copies of Dr. Zhivago back to the Soviet Union. And it's funny, it was a book that nobody really paid any attention to until the Cold War got really hot. And then somebody at the CIA said, we've got to smuggle this into the Soviet Union. Well, how do you do that? Well, we can do it by asking the Vatican to do it for us. You know, so the Russians were all over the American Book tent at the International Book Fair, not paying any attention at all to the Vatican book tent. And every Time a Soviet citizen would come to the Vatican tent, they'd say, hey, you want to go in the back room? There's a back room. You're going to want to go back there. And then they had all these copies of Dr. Zhivago in Russian. It got to the point where people would tear out like 10 pages at a time and just tape them around their legs and then just, you know, re enter the Soviet Union with the book taped around their legs, 10 pages at a time, collate the pages again, and then pass it around to their friends.
- [99:28]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Now, I know, I think I have an idea as to why. And for those that don't know, I did write a book and two other books after that, Esoteric Hollywood, which largely deals with propaganda in films and in Hollywood and in fiction. But for those that might not know in the audience, and you've talked about this in many interviews, John, which is the interest that the CIA and other entities, Pentagon, even military, they have in Hollywood and fiction. Why would the CIA care about Dr. Zhivaga? What is that going to do in the Soviet Union? Who cares about that? Why would they do that?
- [100:03]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, it's funny. You declare victory in small increments. Right. And so if you are able to get a book like Dr. Zhivago into the hands of a Soviet citizen and maybe make one Soviet citizen question his or her own government, that's a successful operation. And so, you know, you, you plan small and hope for the best and that's really what it was all about.
- [100:37]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, there's a movie I know, I'm sure you're well, very familiar with Three Days of the Condor.
- [100:44]
John Kiriakou
Yeah.
- [100:44]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
And you've got Robert Redford sitting in this bookstore and he's basically just reading books and looking for things all day long. Is that real or is that exaggerated?
- [100:56]
John Kiriakou
No, that's real. That's real. When I first joined the agency, that was called Active Measures. So you, you had an active measures branch and then you had anti active measures branches. So you're planning American propaganda and then the other branch is, is planning how to come. Sorry.
- [101:24]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
It's okay, go ahead.
- [101:25]
John Kiriakou
Can you hear me now?
- [101:27]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, sure, yeah.
- [101:29]
John Kiriakou
Sorry, my, for whatever reason, my, my microphone switched. So yeah, it's, it's all about the propaganda and it's all about combating propaganda. It's a 24 hour a day, seven day a week process.
- [101:46]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
You know, in, in films, you know, you watch movies or shows, you see something like the Americans and we see back during the Cold War, you know, number stations are Putting out the message codes to the Soviet operatives in the U.S. and if I recall, it's been some years since I watched Three Days the Condor, but Robert Redford's like scanning for propaganda. But isn't it also perhaps like messages from Soviet operatives to certain cells or something? Like he's trying to see if he can find something. Maybe it's not, I don't remember. Does that still go on in terms of. I know there's number stations sort of putting out those codes and whatnot. Is that still happening at that time? Type of a level? Okay.
- [102:28]
John Kiriakou
Oh, yeah. As recently as a week ago, I was just, I, I just did a podcast episode of my own where I talked to two former CIA colleagues. One was a CIA attorney and the other was a, was an operations off and a so anti Soviet operations officer. And we were talking about that and I said, you know, when I was nine years old, I've said this before. When I was nine years old, I told my parents I wanted to be a spy when I grew up. And they bought me walkie talkies and disappearing ink and stuff like that for Christmas. When I was 16, I told them I wanted to be a spy in the Middle east. And I, I meant it. And I became a spy in the Middle East. Well, my dad, when I was nine, my dad took me to an auction at one of these, one of these local farms. We lived in a very rural area. And at the end of the auction, all the junk that didn't sell they just threw into one box. And my dad got the box for 50 cents and it included a shortwave radio. So that night we put some batteries in this thing and I listened to an AM station, it was WGN in Chicago. And I remember thinking, wow, I'm in Newcastle, Pennsylvania and I can hear a station in Chicago because, you know, when the sun goes down, AM stations go on augmented power. And if you're a 50,000 watt station, you can be picked up as much as like 1500 miles away. So I was getting Chicago and New York and Boston and Atlanta and Dallas a couple, a couple times. The next night I switched it to shortwave just to see if I can get this on am. What about this shortwave? And I got BBC and Radio Moscow and Radio Havana and all different kinds of things. Well, one of the things that I heard that night and many, many nights after that was just a man's voice saying, 8, 3, 6,
- [104:29]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Are you there? I think we lost you audio wise. Can you hear me, guys in the chat? You can hear me right Maybe we're getting. Everybody always makes the same dumb joke at this point. The CIA is messing with you. I don't know about that, but let me see here. Make sure I didn't hit the wrong button. Multi output. So John, I've lost. Let me try to probably just switch to his audio again. Guys, I will go ahead and read a couple super chats while he works on that here and we've got several. So in the last 20 minutes maybe it's a good, it's a good time to shift over to super chats. You guys did ask him a lot of questions, so I'll try to make it accessible and quick. Alex, we lost him, but he'll be right back. Foreign.
- [105:40]
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- [106:11]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yes, you're back. Sorry about that.
- [106:13]
John Kiriakou
I have no idea why that happened. It didn't give me any indication that there was something wrong. So real quickly then the guys just reading numbers for hours and I'm like what is this? Well what it is, it's a spy who is doing what he's called. What he's doing is called reading from a one time pad. So he's reading an encrypted message by giving only the numbers associated with the letters that are encrypted. So those numbers will change with every message. So I mentioned this on the podcast the other day and the other case officer he said, oh listen, he said I still listen to, to shortwave and I can tell you that a week ago I heard a guy reciting one time pad numbers. So there it's some Russian spy somewhere in the United States and, and he's reading it from his one time pad.
- [107:14]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, I remember somebody was talking the other day too about there was, there was a number station down in Miami that's like near Cuba that's still you know, spitting out numbers codes and for the British have these as well. So I'll go ahead and start reading the super chats because I know you've only got about 20 minutes left with us. So guys, if you want to put in your questions for John, do so now. I may have to read the super chats that are above $5 or more, perhaps because we've got quite a few coming in hush tones says Jay, you look like clavicular your J vicular. Good one, Albert Smith, $5. Jay, you've got another sad hair day. Well, I didn't want to look too silly talking to John Kaku, so I just went with, I don't know, Rob Thomas from Matchbox 20 mixed with James Bond. So roll stakes, $10. Jay, you're researching topics, but you're muted. Okay, we unmuted. Reckon $5, bro. In case you didn't know, you're live. I know. JMAL, $15. Why are so many ex CIA in US politics? And what about the Democratic Party, say Governor of Virginia? Can we trust any of these people, John?
- [108:24]
John Kiriakou
No, we can't trust. No, I'll tell you, I was. I was the mentor to a guy, Will Hurd. Will is an. Was an awesome case officer. As honest as the day is long. Our politics were different. But I love the guy. And he told us one day, he said, listen, I'm gonna resign. I was like, what? I said, will, you're a natural born case officer. Why would you resign? He says, I wanna run for Congress. I said, run for Congress, buddy. I said, that's not a step up. It's not. Well, he resigned and he ran for Congress and he won. Here's a guy who's half black, half white, and he wins three times in a Supreme Court mandated majority Hispanic district. That's how honest and popular he was. And then he decided this is all bullshit. It's all posturing. No real work gets done. I'm going to quit and run for President. He runs for president for about 15 minutes. When? A year, two years ago. He dropped out before the. The primaries even began. And the last I heard, he was on the board of directors at OpenAI, making millions and millions and millions of dollars. So it worked out for him. But you know, people like Alyssa Slotkin and Abby Spamberger. It's all about the power. Listen, Abby. Even at the agency, Abby was known as somebody who wasn't going to be around long because she needed time to win election to different offices so that she could run for president. That's what, that's what it's all about. Alyssa Slotkin's exactly the same way. The idea is that automatically they're both attractive candidates for vice president. And then the next time when it's Their turn, they run for President. It's all about power.
- [110:19]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
That leads me to the last question I had for you on my list here. As we kind of wind down with the super chats and that is we cover quite a bit on my channel. The idea of high level steering committees, foundations, NGOs, think tanks, they seem to have a lot of power.
- [110:38]
John Kiriakou
Yeah.
- [110:38]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Americans look at the President, they look at the, you know, Congress, they look at the, the Senate, you know, Supreme Court and certainly those entities have power. But it seems like the, there's certain agendas that never change with the politicians that come and go. For example, our foreign policy seems to be dictated by Israel for many, many decades.
- [111:01]
John Kiriakou
Yes.
- [111:02]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
What is the real level of power, you could say, for these types of supra governmental entities, these steering committee, cfr, Trilateral or apac, you know, as a lobby group or perhaps beyond that, something beyond apac, Mega group, something like that. What's the real power structure, John?
- [111:23]
John Kiriakou
Oh, they're all part of what we are now calling the deep state, all of them. CFR is a great example. You know, Bilderberg is another I. Someone to whom I was once very close, I'll put it that way, because that's what the divorce court says. I have to say, someone to whom I was very close. Found herself in a position where she began attending these meetings. Right. And I said, you got to tell me what, what goes on in these meetings? What are they talking about? Are they like, you know, manipulating global markets and, you know, foreign policies and stuff? And she said it's all about weapons sales. All of these meetings, whether it's Shangri La or Bilderberg or any of them, it's all about weapon sales. Yes. The Bill Clinton's and the Bill Gates of the world and the, you know, prime ministers of this country and that country, they're all talking about the big overarching global issues and economies and stuff like that. Yes. But at the end of the day, it all comes down to which defense contractor made what deal at every one of these conferences.
- [112:40]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Is that also, that would also still overlap with tech? Because we, we heard, Absolutely. We heard this last Bilderberg meeting, what, a couple weeks ago, what dominated the supposed Talking points were CBDCs, you know, AI. That was the, you know, and seems like builder burn the last 10 years has really allegedly focused on a whole lot of tech stuff. Is that, does that fit in with that?
- [113:06]
John Kiriakou
Absolutely, yes. Right now it's all about tech. And I think it will be even more so in the, in the future.
- [113:11]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, it's all about Anonymous says $50 and doesn't say anything. Thanks so much man. Appreciate that. Gabe, do you have any opinions on the YouTuber Alpha talks? He has 40k subs and talks about Genesis 6 and end times eschatology. I don't typically go into a lot of the evangelical eschatological stuff. Poncho $20. Off topic. For Muslims or people to sympathize with Islam. Look up Kuwait and the response to Phyllis Philippine legal challenges after 2018. And the unaliving of Joanna Dima Felis and the 2019 unaliving of Jana Janelle Villa Vende. I don't know anything about that. No, nor do I. Poncho 20. Thank you so much. Container 15. Jay, what does John. I know he did mention this earlier. What does John think about SRI and CIA programs studying remote viewing?
- [114:06]
John Kiriakou
For the CIA remote viewing was a failure. They. They could never figure it out. They could never make it work. It was always my understanding. The Russians also failed. The Chinese failed. I think it's just not possible. I think it's not a thing.
- [114:20]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Hush says for $10. John, could you tell us what you think about Elpida Foros? There was a discussion of a phone call. I can't remember the original video. What did you think of that?
- [114:35]
John Kiriakou
See, now you're going to put me on the spot.
- [114:37]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Maybe I don't. You know, if you. If you don't want to say, you don't have to say.
- [114:41]
John Kiriakou
El Pito photos is the Archbishop of the of the Orthodox Church. Greek Orthodox Church in America. He is widely believed to be by far the leading candidate to be the next Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. He's young. He's 58 years old. He's good looking. He's widely respected. He has not been kind to me personally. Maybe I should leave it at that.
- [115:13]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Fair enough hush tones. $20. Jay, thank you. Here's for the super chat goal. Thank you for your work. St. Louis is about to get a new Rore church. That's great, Henrik.
- [115:23]
John Kiriakou
Oh really?
- [115:24]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Apparently Henriks says for 200 scks which is usually 20 cents. Olaf, anytime you see some weird foreign currency it's like. Translates like 20000 ccps and it translates to like 30. Hendrik says Olaf Palma of the Swedish Prime Minister. He's a Swedish prime Minister in the 1980s. Was. Yeah. Assassinated probably by a gladio cell. There was a CIA operation called Red Sox where they had tiny mustache men followers in the Ukraine. And this was part of the Maidan coup. Interesting. I had not heard that that all
- [116:04]
John Kiriakou
of Palmer's assassination was part of the Maidan coup.
- [116:07]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
He's saying that there's a cell that is similar to that group that was he's saying is a gladio cell that in the Ukraine was called Red Sox, which led. Which helped with the Maidan coup is what he's saying.
- [116:22]
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- [116:54]
John Kiriakou
I always heard. I have no idea. I always heard that Palma was killed by. By a Kurd.
- [117:01]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
But.
- [117:01]
John Kiriakou
But the Kurd was. He ended up being convicted and then. And then on appeal, the conviction was overturned. He was released. And they never. They never conclusively solved that murder.
- [117:17]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Mountain walk, $10. Jay, ask John. Does he glow in the dark? Well, he's a whistleblower, so if that's what you're referring to. Container. We already asked him about remote viewing. Mountain Walk. Do not ask about bioluminescence. I'm restricting it to super jets over 10. $20. So. Eugene, $5. This is actually the best geopolitical content in this sphere, hands down. Well, thank you.
- [117:42]
John Kiriakou
Thank you.
- [117:42]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Appreciate that. Wonderful. Slow boy whiteboard, $20. Guys, help Jay get to the goal. Also subscribe to John. Absolutely. His channel is linked in the show description and I will link him in the title.
- [117:54]
John Kiriakou
May I add something?
- [117:55]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Sure.
- [117:55]
John Kiriakou
And. And this is not a formal announcement yet, but we are winding down my Deep Focus podcast and we're gonna start anew in two weeks on YouTube under Real John Kiriaku. It's going to be called John Kiriaku's Briefing Room.
- [118:15]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
That'd be a different channel. Or the same channel redone.
- [118:19]
John Kiriakou
It's gonna have to be a different channel, I'm sorry to say.
- [118:21]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Okay, so yeah, we'll down the road. You know, I'll try to link and promote that one.
- [118:26]
John Kiriakou
Thank you very much.
- [118:27]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Channel Jacob says. I don't even know what that means. Door. Poor Robin. Shout out to Neil. He says John is spinning yarns. He's a rock contour. We should invite him to our super. He doesn't mean Spinning yarns in a bad way. Singer telling. All right. He says you're telling great. He's a good friend. He's saying you're telling great stories. He needs to come to our. You know what a supra is the Jordan Georgian meal.
- [118:53]
John Kiriakou
Yeah.
- [118:54]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Thank you.
- [118:55]
John Kiriakou
I appreciate it.
- [118:56]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Mountain Walk Jay has to dumb down rhetoric because he's talking to an audience of midwits and normies. When he encounters very intelligent people, the flow of the conversation is much more natural and high. High tier. Well, I think.
- [119:10]
John Kiriakou
And Jay, when you came on my show. Deep State, I had to stop and think. My own show, my TV show, we went for an hour and a half talking about. Mostly about orthodox theology and threats to. To orthodoxy. It was fascinating. I couldn't believe 90 minutes had passed and. And they turned it into three separate episodes. It was wonderful.
- [119:35]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Perfect. Yeah. That's great. And that is going to be on the Deep Focus, or is it going to be on your new channel? Is that.
- [119:40]
John Kiriakou
That's going to be on the new channel.
- [119:42]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Okay, awesome. So look for the new channel again. Let's see. All right, you guys can't just spam like $2. Super chat questions. Come on now. Haul Long Nate, $5. My grandfather was one of the employees that they tested LSD on, unfortunately. I hate to hear that. Yeah. That's a Frank. Is it Frank Olsen?
- [120:07]
John Kiriakou
Poor Frank Olson.
- [120:08]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah. Let's see. Porphyry says there's a secret Asian peptide. Okay, these are some really weird questions. Now here come all the skitsos. I'm joking. Jude says for $5. To clarify my last question, I want to know, can John talk about what was going on at his time in the Middle East? That's a broad question.
- [120:33]
John Kiriakou
Oh, lots was going on in the Middle East. On the one hand, you had the Arab Israeli peace process, which. Which we believed at the time was really taken hold. When I was stationed in Bahrain, we actually sp the Arab Israeli peace talks on the environment. And then I went to Oman for the Arab Israeli peace talks on water. I mean, it was weird to see, like, Israeli flags flying in Bahrain and Israeli diplomats walking around. Crazy. At the same time, though, the first intifada began while I was in Bahrain and got pretty ugly. Like, really ugly. I mean, people died, others were executed. It was. It was nasty. I. I went into Kuwait City with the Marines on Liberation day back in 91, and then, you know, 9, 11, and yeah, was kind of crazy.
- [121:29]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
All right, Josh says thank you both. John, have you noticed any patterns from CA or FBI drawing from recruiting Mormons or perhaps or other cult groups like Quakers, Joe's Witnesses, or Scientologists.
- [121:43]
John Kiriakou
Oh, yeah, yeah. I never encountered a Scientologist. But Mormons are very, very overly represented in both the CIA and the FBI, to a very slightly lesser extent in nsa. And the reason is simple. Number one, they've never done anything. They don't swear, they don't drink, they don't smoke, they don't gamble, they don't screw around. They don't do anything. They don't even eat chocolate. And so they just blow right through the polygraph exam. More importantly is most of them go on these missions when they're 18 or 19 years old, and they go to Brigham Young, to the mission center, and they learn how to speak these funky languages that nobody else speaks. Uzbek, Tajik, Pashtu, these African languages. And so they arrive on the job already fluent in these languages, and they can be sent operationally, immediately overseas. So they're the. The Agency and the Bureau just love Mormons.
- [122:42]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, absolutely. By the way, that's a vindication of something that people will keep challenging me on. When I mentioned that, Jude says for $10, what I was specifically asking John about with the Middle east earlier. I'm sorry, I couldn't find your other super chat. You said, what did John think was going on, for example, in the Antiochian Church during his time in the Middle East?
- [123:06]
John Kiriakou
You know, I. I attended the Antiochian Church when I was stationed in the Middle east, just because there was no Greek Orthodox Church, specifically in Kuwait. The Antiochians were very strong. You know, I don't remember there being any controversy when I was living there in the 90s. It was all pretty straightforward. And then when I was stationed in Bahrain, I was very close friends with the Greek consul general. She was a Greek American, and there was no Cypriot representation there, so she covered Cyprus as well. And then she said to me one day, hey, Archbishop Christodoulos is going to come to Bahrain, and he wants to meet with the emir. We're going to have all of the Orthodox, the Greeks and the Cypriots go with him to see the Amir. The emir was surprised to see me. He had no idea. I mean, there was no reason why he would have known that I was Orthodox. And we had the meeting, and then he pulls me aside and he says to me, he whispers, I like your ayatollah. He said, I, your imam. He said, I like your imam. I trust him. And I said, he likes you, your highness. Next thing you know, the emir donates a giant plot of land. It was like two acres. And we built the first ever Greek Orthodox or the first ever Orthodox church in Bahrain. It was very, very generous. In Kuwait, there were already Orthodox churches, Antiochian and Armenian. And then later on, toward the end of the 90s, they built an Antiochian church in Doha. I was in Dubai a few weeks ago and there are churches in both Dubai and Abu Dhabi. I don't think there's anything in Muscat and absolutely, absolutely, positively nothing in Saudi Arabia anywhere. You'll lose your head. But things were going pretty well for the Antiochians when I was living there.
- [125:06]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Henrik says, have you guys read which Path to Persia from 2009? Brookings Institute? Yes. I haven't read the whole thing, but I'm familiar with it. I did actually look it up the other day. In it they admit that the US Will go to war for Israel and Iran. The US is not getting bombed by Iran, but the Gulf allies are. I assume John probably agrees with that.
- [125:24]
John Kiriakou
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.
- [125:28]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
John, are there other members of N17 that perhaps never got caught and continue in Greek leftist parties?
- [125:36]
John Kiriakou
Yes, there was one in particular who admitted that he was one of the two shooters in the Welch assassination. He dropped out of the 17th of November. He was the only one to voluntarily leave and joined the Greek Communist Party and became the president of Greece's largest labor union. Greece is one of those rare countries which very stupidly has a statute of limitations on murder. And so he was never prosecuted. He got away scot free with the Welch assassination.
- [126:15]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
All right, I'm gonna. John will have to leave soon. I don't want to keep him too long. So I'm gonna try to figure out the the higher tier super chats here and read the last one or two GM says for 50. I am loving this interview. Thank you so much, GM. Appreciate that. Thank you. Let's see. See, banana says for $20. John, can you talk about the CIA culture and its influence in America, for example, in universities, Middle Eastern countries and spreading Americanism in terms of soft power.
- [126:46]
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- [127:17]
John Kiriakou
Wow. We would need a whole episode for that. The answer, obviously, is you're exactly right, that that CIA soft power is being exerted everywhere that you've just cited, whether it's in television series or Hollywood movies or the media or across universities. You know, I was recruited by my grad school professor, and then with Passage of the 1993 Equal Employment Opportunity act, that became illegal. So what they did is they just went around the eeoc. What they do now is if you are within three years of retirement and you're a senior operations officer, they'll send you back to your alma mater to teach some innocuous course. A buddy of mine right now is teaching a course at Indiana University called Espionage in Soviet Literature. Nobody gives a shit about espionage in Soviet literature. The whole point of the class is for people to come up to him after class and say, hey, I'd really like to join the CIA. And then he says, let me introduce you to a friend of mine. That's what it's for.
- [128:24]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Now, last question, because John's gonna have to go right now. Thank you so much for joining me, John. Again, all the links are going to be below.
- [128:30]
John Kiriakou
My pleasure.
- [128:30]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
And this is always a classic. It comes up, of course, with the books that I wrote. But, John, this is from Penny for $20. Is House of Cards worth watching? Or what are the TV shows or movies that really give insights into accuracy with the CIA?
- [128:47]
John Kiriakou
House of Cards definitely is worth watching. That is the story of the Clinton family. I mean, they don't even try to mask it. House of Cards is about the Clintons. Yes. Don't miss it. But an even better show is. Is the Americans. A former colleague of mine in the. In the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, Joe Weisberg, resigned. I remember the day he resigned. He came up to me, he said, buddy, I just resigned. I was like, what? Why would you resign? And he said, this job is just not for me. He said, I don't have it in my gut to convince somebody to commit treason. He said, I just can't do it. But he was unmarried, no kids. I said, what are you going to do? He said, I'm going to go to Hollywood and find my fortune. And he published a very highly regarded novel that was heavily redacted because it was so true to life, and then immediately created the Americans and never has to work again a day in his life.
- [129:43]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Yeah, it's a great show. It's my favorite. One of my favorite TV shows. Definitely. We've Done several podcasts in the archives. Got you guys with our good buddy Mark Hackard, Russia analyst, specialist, translator, translates KGB stuff. And of course, he did a great podcast with me on the Americans. Everybody be sure and follow John Kiriakou in the show description. John, thank you so much. I'm honored to speak with you and so, so proud of your work and what you're doing, and so seeing you all over all these podcasts and great episode on Tucker, by the way.
- [130:11]
John Kiriakou
Thank you very, very much. I appreciate it. It's good to see you again.
- [130:14]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
All right, excellent. And I'll let John go. He's got a busy schedule, so thank you there, John. And I do want to get to several of the super chats. I know you guys probably wanted him to answer a lot of these, but there were so many little super chats that we can't spend three hours asking John Kaku. Two, three, five dollars super chats. Come on, you guys. So I'll answer it to the best of my abilities. The rest of these we've got. TX says for £2. Does wiga boomer. Maxon, come on, dude. You talking about me or you talking about John? John might actually be gen X. He might not. Actually, I think he's older. Gen X. I don't think he would qualify as boomer. But even if he does, he is a cool boomer. And you guys know that all the boomers in our sphere, whether it's Dean Arnold or good buddy Jim Jotras, another Greek friend of ours, they're all the best of the boomers, for sure. Mountain walk. I know you sent a bunch. Let's see if we can read some of these that we missed with Mountain walk here. Hold on a second. This screen is freezing up again. Night fire says for $20. Years ago, when I was driving late at night, someone I know took a right turn on a street. They ended up on another street, and that would have been 30 minutes away. Is that wormhole technology? Maybe your friend was just high as hell and he just sort of, like, drove around and got, you know, lost. That's. That's more likely than a wormhole POY. $20. Do intelligence agencies talk or care about macroeconomic monetary policy? Absolutely. I mean, I would say they care about that because there are many academics and economists that work for intelligence agencies. Do they care about the actions of the Federal Reserve? I'm sure that they watch them and note them and track them. What topics are good for lay people to study to better position themselves in the world? Well, if you mean Monetarily. Because you're talking about money. Money policy. Guess what? My bitcoin news podcast just went up. We did this, I think, last week. And this is our buddy here, who Rob Wallace, who just did a great interview with me. Let me see if I can pull that up here on window capture since we had collab cam up. Here we go. So here's me and Rob. I'm Rob Thomas. This is Rob Wallace. If you go, baby, you need to get bitcoin. If you're broke, baby, you need to get bitcoin. So there is my answer on monetary policy in the chat. There. There it is right there. Oh, I pulled up the. That's the wrong screen, ain't it? Let's see. Let's see if we can do that. Does that. That doesn't fix it, does it? Baby, you need to come home. If you go, baby, you need to come home. There we go. Now we fixed it. Seems like a lot of y' all are not enjoying the The Rob Thomas 1998 Clooney Caesar cut. Y'. All. A lot of y' all getting mad. A lot of y' all just obsessed on hair. Hair, hair, hair. Talk about hair all the time. Y' all need to go get your hair did, because that's all y' all talk about. Nightfire. $20. No, we did that. Penny. We did. We did Penny. Mountain Walk says he's the one that throwing all the. Hold on Ortho cards. $5. Jay, what's going on in the. In hummus? I heard it's not good. You talking about eating hummus? I mean, I eat hummus every now and then. I have not heard that. It's bad for you, though. Enlighten me. I guess you're asking about Middle Eastern foods. Dude, what y'. All. What y' all on, man? Mountain walk, $10. Who is this nerd? Is this favorite Pokemon Al Kazam? Dork alert. I think you're talking about me, right? Surely you're not calling saying that about John Jacob the Fate electrician has an awesome video on Billy.
- [134:45]
John Kiriakou
Wow.
- [134:45]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
Okay, so he's Talking about a YouTube channel on Billy Wall that wa g h that John mentioned in the interview. Mountain walk, $20. Jay, have you played Einhander? No, I don't know what that is. Mountain walk, $5. These guys are thinking too much. Now he's Mega Al kazam. Mountain water, $5. I feel like I'm exploiting the system. I'm posting in Jay Super Chats, and then I drink beer for the Texas rattlesnake Oh, hell yeah. Y' all going full schizo in the chat when we got a esteemed guest. Y' all trying to embarrass me in the chat with these dumb ass super chats. I love you, Mountain Walk, but they're still dumbass. Super chats get wrecked. $2. How do I forgive the justice system? As an orthodox Christian, forgive the justice system. You don't forgive systems. You forgive people individually. Porphyry, $5. Secret Asian peptide. And we did that mountain walk. $5. Get John to stop freaking me out about flying saucers. It's not aliens. The alternative hypothesis is disturbing. Mountain Walk. Asking about high jump, Jude. Okay, I'm sorry I missed that question there, Jude, but I did get in in there at the end. He says for $20 about the Antiochian Church Craftsman, $5. How do we know he isn't running a mission talking to Jay? What if he's trying to take down our bipoc queen? Well, John has been on like a thousand podcasts in the last few months, so, I mean, I doubt that I'm high up on the mission targeting there if he's, if he's on every freaking. I mean, he's on Tucker, he's on Danny Jones, he's on Rogan, he's on every podcast. So, you know, you guys are being paranoid. Mountain walk, $10. Proteonor, $10. What are your favorite psychology books? I'm not a psychology master. I mean, I have some big fat, you know, history of psychology. I've got some, you know, Carl Jung books. We, we lectured through Carl Jung here on my channel. I've read some kind of basic bitch psychology texts and psychiatric texts. We did that one switching time on npddid. We've done Colin Ross's books. Osiris Complex. I have a talk on Osiris complex from about 10 years ago, so those would probably be my offering. Young Cobb, $5. Ask him about Void Voice to Skull and gang stalking again. You guys are going full schizo here. Porphyry, $5. J for president. I don't want to be president. Dude. Presidents are old.
- [137:33]
Safeway/Albertsons Announcer
Save on family essentials at Safeway and Albertsons. This week at Safeway and Albertsons, fresh cut cantaloupe, watermelon, melon, pineapple or melon medley bowls. 24 ounces are $5 each and wild caught lobster tails are $4.99 each. Limit eight member price plus selected sizes and varieties of Doritos Lays, Cheetos, sun chips and Kettle cooked chips are $1.99. Each limit four member price. Hurry in. These deals won't last. Visit safewayoralbertsons.com for more deals and ways
- [138:02]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
to save Compromised and just you. You. You become president. You come out.
- [138:09]
John Kiriakou
You.
- [138:09]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
You're aged 20 years for four years, right? Four years trans. And you. You give away 20 years of your life. You look like a dang senior citizen when you come out of being a President Inquirer. Goose. $5. How do we get normies at work in our social groups to open their eyes to the things that you guys are talking about without thinking that we're crazy? Gonna be honest with you, dog, you're probably not gonna get them open to the stuff we're talking about. This is niche, niche subject matter for nerds. But Chad nerds. And everybody in our audience is of course a Chad nerd. And that's why you need to head on over to our sponsor, which is chalk.com the best in supplementation for Chad nerds on the Internet. This is workout adjacent. These are not PP pills, so don't get mad at me. This is workout adjacent. We want you to get your toxic masculinity levels up. Get in the gym, get fit, get active. And you do that through using promo code J60LIFE. That's J A Y60LFE. J60LIVE to get the best supplements on the Internet. Including that tongkataly, which is my favorite, proven to boost testosterone. Dog. Tongkat Ali. Get on over there and get that. D says for 15 Kiryaku Dire 2028. We're gonna set up an orthodox theocracy. I don't think that's gonna happen, but I appreciate this sentiment. Did John struggle to adjust after leaving the CIA? Going to everyday life as a civilian? Can he tell the truth? I will try to have John back on. We'll ask some of these questions. I'm sure he has answered that question in other podcasts. Brandon Lee. $10. Based on your experience, what's the biggest threat to our country in the coming decade? I think he thinks it's probably other nations. He mentioned China as a greater threat than Russia to. To Tucker, not Iran. So I think John probably said those things, but we'll. We'll try to answer it. We'll ask him some of these questions if we can get him back on in the future. Mountain walk. I'm sorry for all these questions in my autism day. It's okay. You sound like you're drunk, dog. That's all right. Daniel. $5. I don't. I'm not dissing you. I'm just saying, like, it sounds like you're talking about drinking beer to Texas. Saluting Texas with your beer steins. Daniel. $5. Does American hegemony prevent stability in Latin America? Do you have any books on this? There are quite a few books on. I mean, most of William Engdahl's books cover this. Peter Dale Scott has a book called Cocaine Politics, and those deal with Latin South America. So I think that that definitely plays a role, but I'm not an expert when it comes to Latin South American stuff. Papist Gavin Orbland. $20. Jay, I love you. You're finally getting on a platform. Now I get to binge all my favorite topics. Thank you. W. Mild nerd. $10 question for you. Is Angela Merkel one of the worst EU leaders after 1945? I'm a fan of both you guys. I don't know what John would say about Angela Merkel. I think she's terrible. Absolutely. She's a total puppet contributing to destruction of that country. Anonymous. $5 crisis resin DDS. I saw you at Pasco. That was cool. I locked into the military for four years after 2027 as an officer. Do you have any advice? I'm an Inquirer. I mean, I. I didn't go the military route. I don't. That's the kind of advice I would say that you should take to your spiritual father. Because, you know, I never went that route as I'm a civilian. So I don't know that I could advise you on your military choice. Jv John, this is an amazing interview. Oh, yeah, we did that one. Making sure I didn't miss you guys because I was. I was having to scroll past some of them because we had limited time. Okay. I think we got most of those. Daniel said no. We did. Daniel. All right, let's see over here. Dill weed. Where'd it go? Get John Kiriaku on. You guys are asking about hummus and end times, guys. You had yet a. A limited time. You could have asked a very prominent person some serious questions. You guys are asking about vitamins and minerals and. Just crazy. Y' all trying to embarrass me. Ant. Ant Rodriguez, $10. Yo, cut. Fred. I didn't get a haircut, dog. Your cut is fresh. You need a wigger cut. I'm growing it out a little bit. Not long, but I'm just going to have a little bit of shaggy hair. Jamie requested a little bit of shag. So we're going to see what the shag looks like. I might be too.
- [143:13]
John Kiriakou
I don't know.
- [143:14]
Jay (Interviewer/Host)
It might not be cool enough for shaggy hair. We'll see. If it looks dumb, I'll cut it. Non Fake Blake $20 I'm always I've always been a fan of you both. You have expertise and insights. I'm a cradle Greek Orthodox. I mentioned geopolitics. This discussion is like the super bowl for me. I don't know what to say but Christos and Esty and thank you both. Well, hey, appreciate that Christ is risen. Jonathan Kelly $20 John have you looked into Orthodox prophecies about current state of geopolitics? We'll try to ask him that next time. Dill Weed $20 does the 1934 business plot or Wall street push lead to anything? To anything? Because Smedley Butler made it sound important to the press, but JP Morgan and the other conspirators did not get punished for it. Great question. I don't know a lot about that. I mean I'm familiar with the overall smelly Butler critique and thesis, but that's a great question. I don't know. JB Peltier20 this was a fascinating discussion guys. Thank you so much. Hit like Share Be sure and also support us through the books. Subscribe to John his channel is linked in the chat. And everybody, I will see you soon on a live stream soon. Again, go watch the bitcoin interview that we did here. Great bitcoin podcast. At Bitcoin News I tried to encapsulate the strongest arguments in case for bitcoin within about 30 minutes. So you can check that out right there. Be sure and follow Rob Wallace and Bitcoin News. Very cool dude. Think he's orthodox now. We had a great conversation. Bitcoin from an Orthodox perspective. H Brazy $5 get Jamie to Cornrow that if they get long enough. If they get long enough I'll do it. You know what I'm saying? Yes, you can follow John at Defocus, but also John will have a new channel focusing on his new new podcast. So be sure and follow that. The podcast that we did on his RT Deep State show is also available on the clips channels. I may just go ahead and upload that since it's already everywhere. People put it up everywhere. Guys. Everybody have a great night. Share this Interview Clip the heck out of this interview. As you guys know, I encourage you all to freely clip away. You don't have to ask for permission, just link back to the original channel is the only requirement. If you want to clip me, feel free to do it. I don't Care and also in this
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