Let's Talk...SCREEN TIME (w/ Ash Brandin, EdS; @TheGamerEducator)

Summary

Kid Talk: The Podcast
Episode: Let's Talk...SCREEN TIME (w/ Ash Brandin, EdS; @TheGamerEducator)
Host: Katie Plunkett, M.A.T.
Guest: Ash Brandin, EdS
Date: July 28, 2024

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Episode Overview

This episode addresses the nuanced topic of children’s screen time, exploring how parents and educators can set realistic, loving boundaries while making tech work positively for families. Host Katie Plunkett is joined by educator and Instagram creator Ash Brandin (@thegamereducator) to discuss integrating screens into kids’ lives in healthy ways—avoiding fear, shame, or “screen-time panic”—and to reframe conversations around technology and behavior.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Ash Brandin’s Journey & Perspective on Screen Time

[03:07 – 06:10]

• Ash’s background as a teacher, librarian, and music educator, always working at the middle school level.
• Interest in video games not for their own sake but as a model for engagement and structure in education.
• The transition from niche discussions to a broader social media presence, especially during COVID when families and homeschoolers sought guidance.
• The realization: “The things people are struggling with are management. The things they're struggling with are behavior.” (Ash, 05:46)
• Ash’s educational lens helps transfer tried-and-true classroom management techniques to screen time at home.

2. The Emotional Dynamics of Screen Time for Caregivers

[06:55 – 09:48]

• Technology can feel uniquely threatening because it seems to steal attention and disrupt healthy routines or classroom control.
• Both parents and teachers worry about “doing the right thing” and not harming kids, creating anxiety over balancing tech.
• Katie: “Tech brings so many opportunities, but with it, a lot of challenges as well.” (06:43)

3. When and How to Use Tech for Real Value

[10:09 – 15:00]

• Ash shares the SAMR model—Substitution, Augmentation, Modification, Redesign—to analyze tech’s role in education.
• Tech should be used when it adds something educators can’t otherwise do, not just as a direct substitute.
• Example: Geographic labeling could be handled by Google; classroom time could instead be used for deeper explorations.
• “I tend to not always like the ubiquity of technology in the classroom, because... it becomes just another thing to manage.” (Ash, 12:16)
• Both Ash and Katie advocate for intentional, not automatic, tech use.

4. Managing Screen Time Transitions without Power Struggles

[18:50 – 25:24]

• Ash underscores neutral, validating language: “It's hard to stop in the middle of things, right. Instead of focusing on again the vessel.”
• Instead of labeling tech as “addictive,” acknowledge the underlying challenge—ending any engaging activity is difficult for kids.
• Provide clear routines and off-ramps for transitions (e.g., countdowns, tying up loose ends before stopping).
• “The less we label the things we notice with assumptions about what's going on, probably it helps us stay more neutral.” (Ash, 19:15)
• Katie: Scripts and language matter to help respond, not react: “It’s very tempting to just react rather than respond.” (23:09)

5. Language Matters: From Demonizing to Neutral Descriptions

[25:24 – 28:35]

• Avoid labeling tech as “addictive” or inherently “bad.”
• There’s wide variation in screen types—each form, from games to YouTube, carries different risks and merits.
• Neutrality allows for thoughtful digital literacy education and nuanced decision-making.

6. Digital Literacy & Parasocial Relationships

[28:57 – 31:23]

• Recognize that kids may form one-way relationships with video creators, which can blur boundaries.
• Important to teach kids about “real” and “online” friendships, safety, and discernment.
• Modern technologies offer unique challenges—and opportunities—for social learning.

7. Using Screen Time to Build Family Connection & Understanding Motivation

[31:40 – 37:10]

• “Screen time should benefit whole families.” (Ash, 31:43)
• Screens often fill systemic gaps (e.g., allowing parents time to cook, managing sibling needs).
• Engage with kids about their screen interests, even if parents aren’t experts; showing interest validates and connects.
• See video game play as a window into a child’s underlying motivators—creativity, mastery, socializing—not just “screentime.”
• “We want kids to want to learn because they want to learn. And when that is achieved in other activities, once again we praise it. But with games, we kind of deride it or sometimes resent it.” (Ash, 37:11)

8. Personalizing Praise & Noticing Different Motivators

[41:26 – 47:24]

• Identify whether kids thrive with open-ended (sandbox) experiences like Minecraft, or objective-driven (linear) ones—these preferences can inform classroom approaches and praise.
• Validate the skills children are building in games (strategy, perseverance, creative problem-solving); connect them to offline strengths.
• Transferring confidence from digital achievements to other domains is essential.

9. Systemic Inequity: Why Screens Fill Gaps

[47:24 – 57:41]

• Screen time is often a symptom of larger social inequities: lack of childcare, insufficient educational staffing, or funding gaps.
• “When I’m now being asked to meet the needs of all of these diverse learners in a classroom and I’m not being given additional tools to do that. Well, here I now have this tool that gives me access to maybe something to fill time...” (Ash, 48:45)
• Parenting and teaching are too often treated as individual responsibilities, but many choices are systemic, not personal.
• Ash urges advocacy for better structural support: push school districts for resources, question tech contracts, and recognize when screens are used as a last resort, not a lazy one.

10. Empowerment & Reframing

[57:41 – 60:36]

• Many caregivers experience shame or judgment about screen use, but reframing the “why” can help ease guilt.
• Ask: Is this helping us function as a family now, or helping me be more present later?
• “Stop seeing that as like an indictment of ourselves as caregivers... sometimes it’s reframing it.” (Ash, 58:36)

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Notable Quotes

• “The tech is really just the vessel. It’s not necessarily the issue. But we have so many concerns or presumptions or just weights that we carry...sometimes around technology, particularly as caregivers.” – Ash, 07:10

• “If we do approach it that way and feel like we're fighting the screen, really, we're fighting the children.” – Ash, 07:52

• “I want to use technology for things that I can't do otherwise...and that is probably fewer things than people think.” – Ash, 11:32

• “Instead of focusing on again the vessel. If we can focus more on the behavior or the underlying thing...that can help a lot.” – Ash, 19:21

• “The more we can kind of see through to the feeling, I find anyway, that it puts me in a place of being able to connect.” – Ash, 22:05

• “When we come from that place of neutrality, it can really be more about informing and empowering people.” – Ash, 27:22

• “Screens are often filling in systemic gaps and allowing adults to meet either their needs or their child’s needs because they lack another system of support to be able to do that.” – Ash, 31:46

• “Validate their interests because we value them. I think it removes a lot of that potential for power struggle, increases our chance of connection, and all of that can still coexist within boundaries.” – Ash, 46:49

• “So often, I think that the use of screens is not done out of laziness... The majority of the time it's out of desperation.” – Ash, 56:40

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:07 – Ash’s educational background and organic path to screen-time expertise
• 10:09 – Decision-making criteria on using tech in classrooms
• 18:50 – Ash’s advice on avoiding conflict and power struggles over screen time
• 25:24 – The danger of loaded words (“addictive”) for tech use
• 31:40 – How screens can serve family needs and foster connection
• 37:10 – Using gaming preferences to better understand children’s motivators
• 47:24 – Systemic inequity and the real drivers of high screen use
• 54:50 – Advocacy and questions for school decision-makers

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Resources, Further Reading, and Where to Connect

Ash lives on Instagram: @thegamereducator
There you’ll find reframing tactics, practical management tips, and approachable, technically precise guides for parents and teachers.
(Dropped at [60:51].)

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Final Thoughts

• Screen time is a tool, not the root issue—pay attention to context and motivation.
• Neutrality, validation, and connection matter most in family and classroom conversations about screens.
• Systemic advocacy is key: When screens fill a gap, push for broader supports, not just restriction.

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This episode is a must-listen for any parent or educator feeling stuck between fear-based extremes and laissez-faire attitudes about tech. Instead, Ash and Katie offer a nuanced, compassionate, and empowering approach that centers connection, skill-building, and the realities of modern life.

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

I am here today in the studio with Ash Brandon. They are known on Instagram as the Gamer Educator. I am so excited to have Ash here today I've been following them for a while, and they have so many wonderful insights on behavior and screens. And I'm just really excited to get into it. Welcome to the studio, Ash.

[C]

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

[B]

Just to start off, could you just tell us a little bit more about your journey as an educator and what inspired you specifically to focus on the impact of screen on behavior and learning?

[C]

Yeah, so my background is education. I'm still in education. That's my day job, and I currently work in as a teacher librarian in the middle school level. I've worked in middle school at some point throughout my entire career. I started as an orchestra director doing music education, and then I kind of switched and. And for a brief time I thought, I'm going to be an administrator. And then eventually I was like, no, I don't think so. But I do want to impact as many kids as I can, and it's kind of what led me to library. So I had my hand in a lot of different thoughts in education, but from probably the first or second year I was teaching, I was just really interested in the idea of not necessarily using actual video games in the classroom, but taking the ideas of games from a structural perspective and bringing those into a classroom to really see how they could enhance my curriculum or my teaching and student learning. And I really liked what I saw from that. And frankly, I wasn't really thinking about it at all in terms of behavior, except, you know, it sometimes helps engagement, which obviously can have ripple effects positively for behavior. And I mostly just kind of kept it to myself. And I would talk about it in some really niche spaces, often like video game centric spaces, doing that a couple of times a year. And it wasn't until the first couple years of COVID that I thought, well, I'm not going into many big places and conventions or anything like that, so how can I still get this message out? And that's when I went on to social media and initially was not really planning on addressing a very large audience in terms of, like, demographic. I thought this was slowly educator focused. And my initial leverage or community was a lot of homeschool communities, which obviously local looked a lot different several years ago in Covid, but a lot of initial ignition, I guess, from those homeschool communities, in some ways it was really great because that's really a perfect overlap between education and parenting. And those folks are like, right in that overlap. And that's when I realized, oh, the things that people are struggling with are not I don't necessarily see the value of this. I mean, that is. Sometimes that is coming in. But the things they're struggling with are management. The things they're struggling with are behavior. And I always joke that there is no one that is like, really perfect for this space. Because you can't work for a game company, people will say you're biased. You can't be in certain expertise. But I actually think education is the really great background to have for this because educators deal with behavior and management all the time. And a lot, I think, of my more successful things that come up on the gamer educator are honestly just a lot of tried and true classroom techniques that then can get applied in lots of different environments to lots of different things, including tech. So I kind of stumbled into it organically and accidentally. Yeah, here we are.

[B]

You bring so many incredible insights. I know. Like, for me, I'm a teacher also, I teach third grade, and I really kind of struggle to manage screens in my classroom, especially because I teach at a school where we do not have an emphasis on tech, but there are times where we have to bring in tech for, like, state testing or benchmark assessments and managing just like behavior and, you know, curiosity surrounding screens has been really challenging for me in the classroom. So I've learned a lot from your page, and I can totally see why parents at home would also like what you're saying would really resonate with them because it is challenging. It brings tech, brings so many opportunities, but with it, a lot of challenges as well.

[C]

Absolutely. And those challenges, I think in the moment and at an individual level, they feel somewhat unique, even though ultimately they really are not. The challenges are often challenges that could come up through anything.

[B]

Right.

[C]

The tech is really just the vessel. It's not necessarily the issue. But we have so many concerns or presumptions or just weights that we carry with us sometimes around technology, particularly as caregivers, that. That I think sometimes we then apply that and think like, okay, well, if they were disappointed about ending something else, no, I would not feel the way I do. But it is about technology, and that is bringing up these feelings and concerns. And I think that also comes up in education environments because in my opinion, there's like, no greater fear for an educator than losing that sense of control of a classroom. And I don't mean that in an authoritarian sense. You know, we don't want to be dictators, but we do want to feel like if we needed to. Right. If we really needed it, we could get control easily. Right. And anything that makes Us feel like I'm losing it, you know, like I'm losing that sense of control is really difficult for educators. And I feel that way absolutely in the classroom. And I think things that feel like they could steal enough focus or steal enough attention away from whatever we've worked so hard to establish in terms of the norms and routine of our classroom. Yeah, it feels kind of threatening. I totally get it. And of course, the irony is that if we do approach it that way and feel like we're fighting the screen, really, we're fighting the children, and that doesn't end up helping anyone, then we end up in a power struggle. And we also end up making the tech feel even bigger than we probably even want it to. It can get really messy.

[B]

I totally know that feeling. As caregivers, whether you're a teacher or a parent, we're wired to want to make sure the kids are safe. Right. And so when that fear comes in, we're starting to get that sense of like, this is out of control. Like you said, it's, it's, it's scary, it's threatening.

[C]

Definitely for good reason. Right. It's not just like, I want to be in control. Yeah. For at home caregivers and parents, of course, we're like, I don't want to screw up. We don't want to do something that's going to harm our kids. We want to make sure we're always doing right by them. We feel so much responsibility and way for that. I completely empathize with that. It's coming from this place of like, I just want to do the right thing. And I, or I feel so concerned that I'm not going to do the right thing. And that's hard to then weave that in to management that can feel sustainable and potentially beneficial. Especially if you're considering the needs of many people in a classroom or just the people in a family.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. And that's actually the perfect segue to my next question. I'm wondering, so you have experience in all these, like, diverse settings, classroom library, how do you use, like how. What strategies do you use to integrate screen time into things that you're already doing in a way that supports learning and development?

[C]

Oh, that's a really great question. I think that I am probably going to surprise people here because I, in the education setting, I am actually pretty reticent to use technology unless it is actually meaningfully changing the learning. You know, people who are in ed world or ed tech world are probably familiar with this acronym like samr, SAM or which stands for substitution, augmentation, modification and redesign. And it is the idea that when you're bringing in technology, that it is generally doing one of those four things to the educational experience. And so often it is a substitute. We write in a document instead of taking notes. We use Google Drive folders instead of physical folders. We use Google Classroom instead of planners. Those are substitutions. And I'm not saying that they can't be helpful, especially sometimes as a modification or accommodation. They are absolutely helpful. And that's a whole different conversation I'm talking about. For most students in a classroom environment, that's a substitution. And to me then the question is, is this actually making the learning better? And for some students it very well may, but for others, not necessarily. You know, a student who's faced with this organization might on the one hand have more organization by default because all their documents are in front of them. But if the problem is that they aren't giving things a place to go, or they aren't putting their name on things, like, that's a problem no matter what the application is, right? If I'm not, if I'm not naming my documents and I'm not writing my name on the paper, I've just substituted the problem. For me, the uses of technology that were most effective were the ones that were providing experiences that I could not otherwise provide, that I just could not do, either logistically or because of whatever I was able to present to students. Or they were things that perhaps were a substitution, but because we were substituting something low level, we were then allowed to go much deeper than we would otherwise. Someone that I worked with once brought up. Well, how meaningful or important is it if a student can accurately label a map of every country in Africa, if for the rest of their life they could just Google any country they want to know in Africa? What if instead we assumed that that's just knowledge that they can get easily however they need to, and spent our time instead allowing them to do greater exploration using those tools that can fill in the blanks? And I thought, okay, that's an interesting way to think about it. So to me, I want to use technology for things that I, that I can't do otherwise. And that is probably fewer things than people think. So I tend to not always like the ubiquity of technology in the classroom, because otherwise, like you said, it becomes just, it becomes just another thing to manage. It detracts. And then we end up in a power struggle because then we're frustrated that kids who have literally access to every thought and every piece of information ever in the history of mankind are distracted. Like, what would you expect? Of course they're distracted. And then we all, and then we all go to staff meetings and we sit in staff meetings and what do all of us do, myself included? We use our computers. Right. So, yeah, I, I'm probably, that's probably surprising, I think, to some people, but I, yeah, I can be kind of a Luddite in that area.

[B]

I love that you said that actually, because I, I generally kind of feel the same way. Part of it is the setting that I work in because it's very low tech. So it's a Waldorf school and pretty much K through 8. There's really no tech other than state testing or benchmark assessments or occasionally typing. So I see pros and cons. On the one hand, I as a teacher have been challenged to really not lean on technology. I'm not using PowerPoints, I'm not using adaptive softwares that I used to lean on so heavily when I teaching middle school. And in that way, like we've been able to do a lot of stuff that I really, I probably would have just put my kids on a computer because it was easy. But at the same time I am seeing like there are things that I can't do anymore because we don't have that access. Like the adaptive software sometimes really was helpful in helping me identify targeted areas that certain groups of students needed to work on. And it's much more challenging now without that. So pros and cons. But I love that you said that because you're right, there's a lot of things that we can do without tech. It's really a tool that should add and not simply just replace.

[A]

Right.

[C]

It's all about finding that balance too. Right. Like, I absolutely don't envy an elementary level teacher who's trying to do things without technology because I just think about all of the things you'd probably be cutting and gluing and. But you know, it's also that balance for yourself of like, okay, if I can spend 15 minutes and I'm going to make a slideshow that then I will have access to basically in perpetuity. I can update and keep accurate or I can make something physical that I might have to completely remake in a year that's going to take me five times as much time. Like, yes, that is a substitute, but it's also saving you something. Right? There is a cost benefit to that, I think. It's so funny that you mentioned that one of the few times that you all use technology is for state testing because like, oh my gosh, what a. Yeah, what an interesting, you know, reason to have to bring in tech. Or one of the things that, I mean, talk about something that doesn't really need to be on technology. They could so easily be not on computers and also is, you know, what a. What kind. It kind of sucks the air out of the room to finally be able to bring in tech and then it's for something that is probably not the favorite activity for anyone in the classroom.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Did you know that There are over

[B]

40 million games on Roblox? Yeah.

[A]

And while many of these games are enriching in skill building, there are also many that are mind numbing or totally inappropriate. It's no wonder you worry about what games your kids are playing, who they're playing with, or how long they're spending on a screen. Therefore, it may come as a surprise to you that I actually think you

[B]

should say yes to Roblox.

[A]

This is where Kinjo comes in. Kinjo curates quality skill building. Roblox games your child actually wants to play. It evaluates the games based on challenge and learning potential, scoring them on a 500 point scale. The higher the score or the more flames a game has, the more challenging and educational it is. Kinjo motivates kids to play these high rated games through a reward system. The more enriching the game, the more Kinjo coins they can earn, which can be redeemed for real world rewards like Robux. And if your child loves games like Minecraft or Fortnite, they've got you covered there too. With Kinjo plus. You'll also get weekly email digests detailing your child's Roblox activity, including time spent, friends played with, skills developed and games played. It's a great way to stay informed and involved without hovering. No more worrying about the games that they play, who they're playing with, or feeling guilty. For screen time, head over to the Show Notes. For that link, make sure to use code KIDTALK10. That's K I D T A L K10 for 10% off your Kinjo plus subscription.

[B]

The kids did. However, a few weeks prior to testing, it became clear to me, I started asking them, I'm like, wait, because it's third grade the first year like that they're actually testing. And I started thinking, I was like, wait, how many of you have typed before? And yeah, they had experience at home, but some of them literally had like they were typing four or five words a minute and I was like, oh, we gotta, we gotta work on this. So I was glad that, you know, I was able to pull out the Chromebooks. We were able to do some typing practice, and that was something I. I mean, obviously I can't do that without tech. You know, it's typing. But yeah, it was, it was pretty jarring for a lot of the kids to all of a sudden be on these super stimulating applications and then sitting down and taking this test on a computer after three years of being at this school where they really hadn't done any of that before. So it was a unique experience.

[C]

Yeah, that sounds like it.

[B]

A question I had for you too is, what are some of your tips for parents and educators when it comes to managing screen time without conflict? Because I know I, I saw this with my students too, even with these typing games. They're fun, they're super stimulating, they're addicting, and they didn't want to put it away. And it did create some conflict. And a couple times I could see it teetering on the edge of a power struggle. So how, how can we avoid that?

[C]

Well, I'm going to be honest. I think that the less that we label the things we notice with assumptions about what's going on, probably it helps us stay more neutral. You know, if I. I have a child right now who is like, reading independently, like, silently and independently, which is like, wow, that was a parenting milestone I was not really thinking about. But it's a fun one. And, you know, there are definitely times where I have to kind of like, pry them away from the book. And I would never say, well, that book is addicting you to reading. Right. And if I did say that, people would be like, what, you should be thrilled your kid is reading. Yeah, right. And it is hard to stop in the middle of something. It's hard to stop when you're in the middle of a chapter. It's hard to stop when you're learning a new skill. It's hard to stop when you feel accomplished because you've worked really hard at something and it's finally paying off. Those are the things that are hard, right? And we don't demonize those things when it's books or outside play or independent work or anything we think is valid. But we do demonize it when it is something we don't think is valid. And if we think of it that way, instead of the screen is bad and the book is good and instead think it's hard to stop in the middle of things, right. Instead of focusing on again the vessel. If we can focus more on the behavior or the underlying thing, the underlying feeling, and less on the thing kind of triggering it, I think that can help a lot because then we can go immediately to a place of validation and addressing the actual feeling. Right? While you're working so hard and you just started typing and now you're so much better, you're probably feeling so good right now. And now you have to stop. You probably really don't want to do that. I know that this is really tough. We'll be able to do this again whatever time, right? And like, oh, I wonder if you can type two more words before the timer goes off to end this. There's all. And then we start thinking about how do we transition? How do we help them see the off ramp?

[B]

Right?

[C]

We have 10 seconds left before we have to turn off typing pal for the day. Who can finish their sentence. Just then we're suddenly transitioning away from that. Instead of thinking, oh, I knew it, it's the screen's fault. Now I'm fighting the screen and focusing instead on transitions are hard. How am I going to manage this transition? Of course, that's easier said than done. And I totally get going to that place. Especially if it's new and especially when it is new. We, I think, often go to a place of thinking like, well, they should be grateful, right? Don't they know how unusual and fun this is? Well, of course that's why they're having a hard time. So it's very hard not to go to that place. I've been there and I totally get it. And I think the more we can kind of see through to the feeling, I find anyway, that it puts me in a place of being able to connect, which tends to help de escalate and handle that a little better. And of course, if it is something we're trying to make more routine or less special, then making it clear like, yes, this is hard and yes, it's going away, like, yes, I am still going to enforce this boundary and it is going to happen again. And I can remind you of that also helps too, because then it's not that feeling of I have no idea when this will happen ever again, therefore I need to hyper focus on it can be more of a this is hard and it's gonna happen some other time. I can wait for that. Which is of course a skill in and of itself.

[B]

For anyone listening, I'm like, over here just nodding like, yes, yes, yes. I love all of the language that you provided because I think A lot of times, at least for me, I find scripts to be super helpful. It's just a good place to start because oftentimes in these moments, I find it's very tempting to just react rather than respond. Whereas if I just pause, take a breath, I know language that I can use to address this and then apply it. That's super helpful. Right?

[C]

Yeah. I can't remember. I think I got that from. From another educator, which I think is also like an improv comedy thing. You're always going to add on, right? I'm not going to say, but I could say and. But it does, you know, just allow the conversation to continue and find. Find those ways to pivot. Because ultimately, I think your school is a really good example of, like, you know, abstinence only is really just not a viable strategy for many things, but especially also with technology and that there's always going to be a point where, like, the rubber will hit the road and this is not avoidable anymore. That is always going to require some amount of preparation. Like you said, like, oh, shoot, they have to be able to type. You know, like, oh, we waited. Now we have to get them to type. And I'm not saying that you shouldn't wait till you feel like it's the appropriate time, but that time probably should not be when a child is therefore going to be independently responsible for the decisions that they're making or management of technology, because that is essentially putting all of the onus of responsibility on them without necessarily preparing them with the skills they might need. And again, we can recognize that a lot of these skills are the same regardless of what they're doing. But even for us as adults, it's sometimes hard to manage these behaviors the same way it happens through screens. And we're like, oh, it's the screen, right? And it's hard to. To keep it neutral. It's also going to be hard for them, as they're growing up, to encounter something like technology in whatever form it's taking and see it as in something else they do that could be managed in the same way. And I think bringing in our own adult modeling, whether it's classroom or home, can be really helpful in that way.

[B]

Yeah. No, I love everything you just said. And I also noticed, I think you said using words like, it's addictive. Right. It has this negative connotation. I mean, this is. This is part of what I built, my whole Instagram page. And what I'm doing this podcast for is to highlight that intentionality of words is really Important, and it carries a lot of weight. And so I love that you said that, because it was a moment for me where I was like, oh, I did just say that. I put this connotation on this thing that really shouldn't be demonized. It's not the tech that's bad. It's, you know, this is a challenging behavior, regardless of what it's about, whether they're transitioning from recess or a typing game.

[C]

And I'm sure there will be people hearing this who are like, but it is addicting, right? They're going to go to that place of like, but not all tech is the same and they're getting dopamine. And I can already kind of hear that. So I will just say that one of the things that becomes hard about existing in any kind of tech and, you know, parenting adjacent space is that for as ubiquitous as technology is, we sure like to pretend that it's one thing. A lot of the time we talk about screens as if it is, like, one thing. But of course, when we think about that for a moment, you know, we realize, oh, you know, there are myriad different forms of screen time, and those are all going to be different, and how they interact with every kid at any developmental level is also going to be different. And there's so much room for nuance there. So, yeah, of course there are going to be forms of tech. There's certain structures of certain kinds of games that I think are really predatory that I would not allow, that I think are, you know, best to avoid. And absolutely there's room for that nuance. And when we come in with more neutral language, then we can also have those conversations about digital literacy, which is so extremely important, so important for us and for our kids. If we come in from a place of neutrality and just educating about the thing, then we can build in those. Those literacy components, like, how can I tell if this screen or tech or whatever is affecting me in a negative way or a positive way? What would I even look for? Similar to how we might educate about other things that might be okay in moderation and not in other ways. Or we might just have nuance and how they affect us. When we come from that place of neutrality, it can really be more about informing and empowering people. But if we come in from a place of like, oh, yes, it's bad or addicting or whatever, and coming in with that less neutral language, well, then we can't really build in that nuance of noticing and educating, because we already labeled them all, you know, we already Said everything's bad, everything's addicting or negative. So then how are we going to actually build in the literacy about that if we've already kind of cast it all in a certain direction? So it allows also to build in those conversations around the skills that they really will need to navigate the digital and tech world.

[B]

And that's such an essential skill set in today's day and age. The Internet's not going anywhere. Tech is not going anywhere. There's so many diverse forms that are coming out every single day. There's AI now, like, why are we not leaning into this and embracing it and having, like, you said that open dialogue about it so that we can, you know, talk about it and equip our kids with those skills?

[C]

Absolutely. Even, like, we've been having conversations lately too, just about, you know, sometimes you don't even realize what a kid is or is not kind of conceptualizing in a certain way. But it's very interesting, I think, to see the way that kind of the parasocial relationship aspect can develop for kids. And I have no idea how I would have conceived of a parasocial relationship as a child. Like, I kind of wish I could go back and ask like a kid from the 90s, you know, like, do you conceive of Barney as your friend? You know, I wish I could have asked some kids that, you know, like, or, you know, would you, you know, if you saw Mr. Rogers on the street, like, would you approach him? Would you invite him to your house? And probably, probably I would have said yes. To be honest. I think little kids probably would have said that. But we didn't need to educate a kid that Mr. Rogers was still a stranger. You know, that was just a foreign idea. I don't need to tell my child that they're never. That's never going to happen. You know, Barney is a puppet. I don't need to have this conversation. But now kids are consuming media that's often made by act like real humans, like, you know, creators or YouTubers or Twitch streamers or children, and whether that's actors or creators. And it's interesting to see how those same ideas of, like, oh, I connect with this person and they feel like a friend. It feels very different now when those are, like, actual people just living their lives. And it's been interesting to navigate some of those conversations around. Like, oh, yeah, I mean, you've. You've watched this person on the Internet, you've heard their voice, but, like, they are still a stranger. You know, we don't know them. And even those conversations, bringing in that pivots in so many important directions. How do I know if this person is safe? If. Is it because I've met them? Not necessarily. Is because I haven't met them? Not necessarily, you know, that that goes in so many important directions. And if I am coming again from that place of like, oh yeah, well this is because you watch YouTube videos. Well, I'm kind of skipping the part that can really bring in some powerful skill based conversations that like you said, they are going to need. You know, we would love to be able to unring the bell of certain technological ubiquity, but it's, it's just not going to happen. Like our kids are going to exist in a technological world that we really can't even envision, we can protect, but we can't really prevent that from happening.

[B]

And in the spirit of kind of like leaning into that technology, how do you think families can embrace different types of screen time or technology to engage adults and children and maybe even build those relationships and kindle connection?

[C]

One of the things that I say sort of my, like one of my central tenets is that screen time should benefit whole families. By which I mean that we often are focused really myopically on a child and what it may or may not be doing to them, as we've been discussing today. And we often are forgetting or kind of purposefully overlooking the fact that screens are often filling in systemic gaps and allowing adults to meet either their needs or their child's needs because they lack another system of support to be able to do that. And I think that's really, really important, you know, if screens are going to allow you to get dinner on the table and you know, have a little bit of a break so that you're more present and connected with your child. Everybody benefits from that. You know that Every, everybody benefits. And if you're going to be able to not answer, work, email and not be distracted and not be burnt out at the dinner table and then you can connect more with your kid, well, maybe they were having their screen time in an isolated way or, you know, kind of isolated. They're in the living room and you're, you know, in the kitchen overlooking it. But it provides perhaps a segue into deeper connection that you wouldn't have been able to do otherwise. I mean, it depends where you're at in life. For some people that is going to be using screens as a tool to be able to access that. For others, it might be even just noticing and paying attention to what it is your child is even doing on a screen. And I don't mean that you need to be hovering or that you need to be literate in everything they're doing. I am a child gaming and tech literate person, but I actually don't play a lot of the games that my child plays. So like I'm literate and that I have some idea of what they're doing, but like not in a particularly specific way, but I can hear and notice like, oh, okay, they sound happy or upset or whatever, or pay attention to like, oh, they finished the level or they won or whatever it is they did and then bring that up. Perhaps not in the moment, they probably are distracted, but you know, at dinner, in the bath, bedtime, on the way to school, whatever it is, you were working so hard that what were you trying to do? What, what did, how did you come up with what worked? And then we are then able to hear and connect for them. Oh, it sounds like you strategize. It sounds like you observed, it sounds like you experimented. It sounds like you decided, you know, synthesize these ideas. It sounds like you collaborated with someone and then we're helping them see the real, more skill based things that they might be doing. And again, we don't want this to be the only way that they're doing that skill. That's fine. But we can then help them connect the dots to realize, hey, you do this in other parts of your life or oh, you, I know that you don't really like group work at school or you don't really think that you're good at that, but I just heard you work so hard with your friends when you were playing whatever Roblox game you were playing, what made that easier than when you're at school, you know, and then we're helping them think about like, oh, okay, I'm not just good at that, actually, I could be good at this and other things. So it's kind of finding wherever you're at, like, what can I do with where I'm at? If you are in a place where, yes, you can sit down and actually be on the couch and playing or watching alongside your child, wonderful. If you can do that once every couple weeks, right? And it's just one thing in the rotation, great. I would say you know your kid, but if you have a kid who maybe is super focused on a particular game and you know nothing, you know, allow yourself to know nothing, allow them to show you around, you'll probably be impressed and probably a bit humbled. I think a lot of times we're

[B]

like, oh, that's so silly.

[C]

And then we try it, we're like, oh, this is hard. And then maybe have more appreciation too for the feelings that they're having, you know, wow, this is hard. No wonder they get frustrated. No wonder it's hard for them to stop. I'm frustrated. I don't even really like this, you know, and then it's helping build that empathy for them. And of course then they feel like they know something better than we do, which they love.

[B]

That's such a good point. I, I think it was, it was either at the beginning of this year or the end of second grade because I've had the same group of students for a while, but we did how to essays and that was something that they loved, was just teaching me something that I didn't know they loved being like the expert on that topic. And there was a few kids that did bring in. I mean, I don't play any of these games, but like Minecraft, Robo blocks for like. And they were teaching me how to get to different levels or build certain things. And the amount of detail they went into was impressive. And also it did give me some insight into what they find interesting and how their brain kind of works. So I, I love that you said that because, yeah, tech can be more than just like you playing a game with your child. It can be an opportunity for you to get some more insight into what they care about and what their frustrations or struggles with games might be.

[C]

I also think it's going to be an incredible window into figuring out what kind of feelings really motivate them. This is something that I brought in when I was doing my gaming education work and then bridged over into what I do now was originally just looking at, you know, the conception or the perception that people have is, oh, video games are addicting. But anyone who has played video games and really likes them knows that we're not necessarily playing them because of addiction. We're playing them because we find them intrinsically motivating. And in education that's like always what we're seeking is that feeling of intrinsic motivation. We want kids to want to learn because they want to learn. And when that is achieved in other activities, once again we praise it. But with games, we kind of deride it or sometimes resent it. We wish that they would feel that way. And it's interesting to think about what are the feelings that my child is getting from this game or whatever they're using on a screen. Something like Minecraft is very interesting in that we call that a sandbox because it's essentially what it is. It's like a digital sandbox. And if you think about a physical sandbox, right, it has physical walls, it has boundaries, but then what you do within those boundaries is really entirely up to you. And digital sandboxes are much the same way. There physical parameters, there are rules, right? Certain objects exist in certain places, or you can't do this or put this there, etc. But then what you're doing within those boundaries is completely up to you. And there's very little narrative, right? It's not plot, it's not guiding you, it's just kind of letting you create. And for some kids, that gives them this real incredible feeling of power and control because nothing they do is going to be wrong in an objective sense. The game is not going to say no, that's not how you do it, right? It's going to let them do whatever they want and figure it out. And if they want to do it the quote unquote wrong way, they can. And no one's going to tell them differently. That gives a kid a real incredible feeling of control because they are being able to really decide what they're doing. And what's also interesting is that games that are super narrative and objectively driven, which is much more what I play, those also can give you a feeling of control, but like kind of from the opposite side because those games are like, okay, if I just follow these rules, I will get the outcome I want. So I don't have to think, I don't have to come up with ideas, I don't have to be judged based on like the quality of my ideas. I can just follow this path and keep trying to. And they've already done that work for me. So I know I'll get to the end. And that does give me a feeling of control because I can kind of relax knowing that I can proceed and it'll all turn out so. Even just noticing those differences of like, what is it that my child is playing? Why do they like this? We could ask them, what is it you like doing in here that gives you such incredible insight? A kid who likes to play in a digital sandbox, well, that's also probably a kid who would like a lot of other open ended activities, right? And a kid who likes really objective, driven things is also probably a kid who would like objective driven other things. Like I like hiking on established trails. I don't want to go wander in backcountry right? That would be the open ended. I like the scripted. I like baking which is like do these exact instructions in this exact way and you'll get this outcome. I do not want to cook based on taste. That's much too improvisatory for me. So it's interesting to see how those things can apply in so many things outside of games and give us such incredible insight just to what makes this person tick. Again, when we're thinking of their interest as valid instead of I'm so mad they're playing Minecraft again, we can actually notice those things. If I'm just resenting it, I'm going to miss that. I'm not going to notice that because I'm too busy thinking that it's a lesser thing we could be doing.

[A]

I am so tired of learning apps

[D]

that are frustrating, overstimulating or just flat out boring. But y', all, I swear this one is different funexpected Math is an award winning ad free interactive learning platform designed for kids aged 3 to 7. Created by two moms and former math classmates, this app transforms math into an enchanting adventure through time and space. My kiddos are hooked. Funexpected Math includes entire worlds to explore and each world is full of diverse tasks, games, stories, all guiding children through logic, geometry, algorithms and more. The interactive puzzles make math as engaging as learning a new language, emphasizing understanding over rote memorization. The app also tracks your child's progress and adapts to their learning pace, ensuring they stay motivated without getting overwhelmed. Here's why parents and teachers love funexpected one. You learn through play with no ads or in app purchases 2. It's available offline with regular content updates 3. It's a neuroscience based program with auto adaptive difficulty 4 There are advanced reports for parents and comprehensive tools for teachers and 5 it's local localized to 14 different languages. And guess what teachers? Funexpected math is completely free for you. Make math lovable for your kiddos today. Make sure to use our link in the show notes so they know we sent you.

[B]

That's so true. Even as you were saying this, I'm reflecting on different things that I've done in the classroom that have nothing to do with pec. But basically the two most popular activities amongst my students like learning activities are they always want to take these multiplication quizzes because I've laid it out like a karate system and they earn their different belts and they are so into it they literally beg me to take these quizzes and then the other One is I just have this giant craft cart filled with random things and I just give them maker time. They can do whatever they want. They just have to use the materials on the cart. And those are the two most popular activities in my class. And it totally fits into what you just said, which is like that objective driven kind of mindset and then also this open ended creative side. So it's really interesting that you say that because I'm, I'm just starting to think like, oh, these students do very much prefer this. And wow, I'm kind of mind blown right now. Yeah.

[C]

And there's also pivots between them because like I would have been that kid where if you gave, if you dumped the graph card out and said make something, I would sit, I would do nothing. Like, I would sit there and freeze and say like, I'm overwhelmed, right? There's too much and now I don't know what to do.

[B]

Right?

[C]

But even the entry point of like, okay, here's felt and pipe cleaners, you know, like, can make an animal, right? Like any directive I'd be like, okay, I just need an entry point and now I'll probably be fine. It's funny too for me in my own video game life to see the games that overlap in those styles where I have freedom, but I also have structure that I can fall back on. And that's like when I feel safe to branch out, it's like, well, I can always fall back on this thing that I know I really like. I can come back to this. But yeah, once again, kids are going to show us who they are in so many different ways and we don't always notice those kinds of personality traits or whatever it is, or learning styles, what have you with other kinds of activities. Like, I, it would make sense that I just wouldn't really notice, you know, oh, does my kid like drawing or they like coloring in a coloring book? Like, I wouldn't necessarily think of those as going to be driven in different ways, but sometimes we didn't just connect those dots to the other things they like to do. And again, help us learn more about how to support them, but also help them learn more about themselves so that again, they're learning like, oh, I'm not just good at Minecraft, I am good at creative thinking. That's a very different thing for a student to think about themselves. If they think I'm only good at Minecraft, no wonder they only want to play Minecraft because that's what they think they're good at. But if instead we're like, oh, you're very good at open ended things or you're very good at solving a problem, or you're very good at being creative. Well, now I have a skill set so I can apply that skill set so many different places. I don't have to just focus on the game.

[B]

That's such a good point. Like really being mindful of the language we use to describe these accomplishments too and targeting those skills, like you said, like really highlighting that so that it's nurturing their confidence and they can transfer that out of Minecraft and into whatever other creative project they might be doing. Absolutely.

[C]

And if they work hard at something similarly to how I would validate the feeling of how hard it is to stop something you enjoy, you can also validate how good it feels to finally achieve something you've worked for. And in the same way that I would validate if a kid finally, you know, shot a basket, they've been working on an actual basketball. I can validate that same feeling if they're playing Rocket League, which is like a playing soccer with trucks. But I can still validate the feeling of like why you finally did it, you were working so hard. It's a very similar feeling. And it doesn't mean it's the favorite thing that we love that they do with their time.

[B]

Right.

[C]

But when we just validate their interests because we value them, I think it removes a lot of that potential for power struggle, increases our chance of connection and all of that can still coexist within boundaries. Just because we see the validity of something doesn't mean we're going to allow unfettered access to it. You know, we see the validity in many parts of our kids lives. We still make them come in and go to bed. You know, we wouldn't let them play outside until 1am we're going to still put in boundaries that's not mutually exclusive with seeing these things as having validity.

[B]

I wanted to ask you too. I think maybe we kind of very briefly touched on it, but I really want to get into it because this is something I saw you post a while back and it really just got me thinking because I'd never thought about screen time in this way. But you brought up that screen time can be a systemic inequality issue. And I'm wondering if you can elaborate on that and suggest anything that communities or schools or families can do to address some of these disparities.

[C]

Yes. I appreciate you invited my soapbox to this interview. It's one of those things. Yeah. So I've Mentioned, you know, that one of my tenants is screen time should benefit whole families. And one of my others is that screen time is a social inequity issue. We hear so often in this sort of anti screen rhetoric which often does also come from within the walls of education, which I find so ironic because really what they mean is at home use of technology and never at school. But as we said earlier, the tech that's being used at school is not necessarily being used in a way that's necessarily better. So I always find that very ironic. So we hear so often in the sort of anti screen rhetoric that, you know, maybe screens are a tool, but there's this over reliance. You know, parents are using them too much or teachers are using them too much. Schools are over reliant on them, as if this can be solved by individuals. But this is not an individual issue, this is a systemic issue. And we see this really strongly in the last four years since COVID began with seeing that, okay, well we sent all educators home and basically ask them to completely reinvent their curricula like overnight, mostly to be entirely online with minimal support. And then we asked caregivers to continue to work and also supervise their children and like make help them learn also with minimal support. And no one can do that. Right. Like something is going to fall to the wayside and something has to step in to fill in those gaps. So those gaps are going to look like many different things in educational settings. It's inadequate staffing, it's not receiving materials or money to buy new materials because we see a lot of money in said go to technology and software, but not to physical materials or books or updated curriculum. It's not having paraprofessionals, it's not having maybe volunteers because they're working because they can't come in the building. So all of those are gaps. We also are seeing increases in diagnoses for under diagnosed communities for things that might qualify them for IEPs or 504s. I'm going to be very careful with my language there because I'm not going to say that we're seeing increases in the number of people with these things. We are seeing an increase in diagnoses, which I think is very different. Right. We're seeing now our diagnoses catch up probably with populations who were under diagnosed. So we have all of these needs and something has to fill those gaps. And so when I'm now being asked to meet the needs of all of these diverse learners in a classroom and I'm not being given Additional tools to do that. Well, here I now have this tool that gives me access to maybe something to fill time, like you said, maybe something to address a gap that I quite literally cannot address otherwise for a particular student. Of course I'm going to use that because it's that or nothing. And for people at home, if I don't have paid parental leave, I don't have adequate access to child care or affordable child care or before after school care or both. Caregivers are working. So there's not necessarily someone available at home all the time or a single caregiver or people are having to work later and later in life. So we no longer have this sort of village that our parents had all of those things create gaps and we are not providing systemic support for those gaps. So something is going to fill in. And do I think it's good we have those gaps? No, absolutely not. But I would much rather that we have something like a screen that can fill those gaps than to just have those inequities. And if we really care that deeply about these gaps, then we need to be addressing these systemic inequalities that are creating the necessity for over reliance on screens in the first place. Blaming the screen, what good does that do? I blame the screen. The parent feels bad, right? Okay, now the parent feels bad. What did that empower them to do? It didn't help their situation in any way. Now they just feel bad and they can't get their needs met. Right. Like this doesn't help anyone. So I, I mean, I think it's a much bigger problem than I think can necessarily be addressed in an individual level. But I would say from the kind of at home, non educational side, find an area that you think is underserved, that you think might be addressed by screens. You know, find, find some area that you think, okay, yeah, I could see screens filling in for this. Find a way to make your voice heard in that particular area. If it's on a local level, advocate advocating for certain funding changes or voting for people who have a platform that you particularly agree with that's going to address these things. That is certainly one way. I also think on the education side, as a period of educator, if there are things that you notice of like, okay, yeah, they're constantly on devices or using these tools or there's a lot of like software, educational software that's also kind of a constant assessment that's used more and more in public schools to kind of show kids where they're at and also to target them and the Idea is that it's hyper differentiated, like, oh, we know exactly where their gaps are so we can focus right in on them. I would get curious and ask a classroom teacher, do you like this? Is this helping? Because if it is helping and they feel like it is, I want to support them. And I'd also like to know more. But if they don't, then I would want to know, like, well, how can I best support you? What is it you wish you could do instead? And I think the more parents can make their voices heard to school boards and school board members or even building level, but I think probably district level. I think people think that these decisions are made at the classroom level. And they are often. Or not. Classroom teachers often do not have enough autonomy to be deciding what program to use. This is often much higher than them. And it's school districts signing up for huge contracts with companies. And if that bothers you, say something. You make it clear that how do we know this is working? How do we know this is better than what we were doing before? How can we bring in the supports that are needed so we don't have to rely on these things? And from a place of wanting to support and wanting to be better and not, you know, just, I'm mad about screens, but instead, what can we do to give the schools the support they need would at least get the conversation going.

[B]

I mean, I noticed that at my school. So the past couple of years we had a special grant that we got because. Because of COVID and we had this extra funding to have TAs in all of our classrooms. It was a game changer. I could run centers, I could do things that were much more differentiated. And this year we don't have that funding yet. We still have the same rules surrounding screens. And I'm not able to run those centers independently. I'm not able to get all the parent volunteers that I need to get in and fill that role that my TA used to fill. And so it's. Yeah, when you said that, it's like this is the gap here and I really could use a screen to help me fill that gap. Or I could use the TA again, one or the other. But there's a gap here totally.

[C]

And with. And that's not to say that. And I don't think either of us here are arguing that this, that we would prefer a screen, like, often. No, I would not. I would prefer another qualified educator or professional in the room. Like, absolutely right. I would not prefer that I'm having to rely on a screen because Like I mentioned earlier, then we're introducing all these other variables of management and other things. I'd much rather have another person in the room to help and aid in that. But if my option is I'm by myself or I can use technology to still try to make this successful, especially if it's something that I did successfully, I'm like, I wish so much I could still do that. And I saw it was effective, but I don't have the actual physical support I need. If I can still make that happen by making a center station that is screen based so that I know those kids are. Their attention is probably focused and I can kind of not worry about them so much. So now I can focus on all the kids who are using manipulatives or need my help. Well, I'm doing what I can, right? I'm doing what I can with the limited resources that are available. And so often I think that the use of screens is not done out of like laziness. You know, it's not a caregiver or an educator being like, well, I just don't want to work hard, right? That is not what is happening. The majority of the time it's out of desperation. The majority of the time, words out of mandate, great desperation. Often on the hands of many caregivers at home and often mandate or out of their control or a combination thereof in classroom environments.

[B]

This is honestly not something before I saw that post. This is the post that I found you through it, like totally rewired the way I think about screens because I definitely was one of those people that I did have some internalized judgment and I didn't really see that other side. And you raised so many good points. And this year, like, I'm really feeling, you know, those gaps where, yeah, I really could use a screen right now to help me, you know, do everything that my TA used to help me with, like just that hyper differentiated curriculum that I can no longer really deliver on my own without more support. So I just want to thank you for being passionate about that and bringing that message forward because it's one that I think a lot of people don't think about, myself included. And I truly learned so much from you and this interview and your page in general. So I'm so grateful for you.

[C]

Well, thank you so much. I will just say that that inequity piece, one reason that I bring it up so often is that particularly the parenting and caregiving side is so. It's very isolated. You know, we make all these decisions in isolation. And so then we also feel a lot of the weight or potential judgment of them in isolation. And I think it's really important sometimes to zoom out and look at it at more of a systemic view, to sometimes remind people, you know, this decision that you're making is not. Probably isn't even a decision you wish you had to make. And it's also not a decision that you're alone in making. And like I said earlier, might be one that you're making out of desperation or not really having another option. And like I mentioned way back at the beginning, sometimes it's reframing it. Also to think, okay, I'm using this because I don't have something else to do, to use. I don't have the support that I need, and I'm going to use this right now and it's going to benefit my child in. In a different way, you know, in the future, even if it's. Well, my option is I don't turn on a TV show and we, you know, get. Eat fast food that I can't afford, or I really would like to make. Make a meal at home or they watch TV and I can get something made and then we can connect over that, great. Like, again, not good that we have the gap, but if that's what it's allowing you to do and that's the benefit that it's giving, that is a benefit and breaking that down so that we can stop seeing that as like an indictment of ourselves as caregivers, I think is so important so that we can kind of start maybe applying that to others, to ourselves, and then thinking about what would it look like if this were kind of different at a bigger level, and what can we maybe do about that?

[B]

Absolutely. As we wrap up our conversation, I want to see if there's anything that you specifically want to recommend or resources you want to share. And also, where can listeners find you and learn more.

[C]

Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. This is such an interesting conversation. I don't get to talk to very many people in education, so when I do, I'm always like, oh, yeah, talk about all these things. I live almost entirely on Instagram @thegamer educator, and I cover everything from kind of reframing these ideas into different contexts. I'm giving parents management ideas, and also sometimes just really technical, like, how do I make this certain kind of screen or content or game or whatever safer or understand it more? So if that resonates with you and you're listening to this, come find me on Instagram at the Gamer Educator. And yeah, thank you so much.

[B]

Yeah, thank you Ash. This has been such a good conversation. I've learned so much from you and I just appreciate you and your time so much.

[A]

Thank you for joining us on Kid Talk, the podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please consider leaving us a five star review and sharing with your friends. You can also subscribe to our Patreon to support our show and gain early and ad free access to all of our episodes, plus other benefits. If you'd like to sponsor or join us on an episode, reach out to us at podcastidtalk.

[D]

Co.

[A]

I'm Katie and it's been a pleasure to share this time with you. Talk soon.