Good vibes only? The science behind optimism and manifestation

Summary

Life Kit (NPR)

Episode: Good vibes only? The science behind optimism and manifestation
Date: March 17, 2026
Host: Marielle Segarra
Guest: Dr. Deepika Chopra, behavioral scientist, clinical health psychologist, and author of The Power of Real Optimism
Reporter: Andy Tagle

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Episode Overview

This episode explores the science and practice of optimism, moving beyond "toxic positivity" to what psychologist Dr. Deepika Chopra calls "real optimism." NPR's Andy Tagle joins Dr. Chopra to unravel how optimism is fundamentally tied to resilience, curiosity, evidence-based manifestation, and daily habits. Together, they tackle the neuroscience of optimism, practical visualization tools, the real value of affirmations, and the process of building optimism like a muscle—especially in difficult times. The episode provides actionable strategies for listeners to foster genuine optimism, rather than naïve or dismissive positivity.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Defining Real Optimism vs. Toxic Positivity

• Opening Context (00:13):
  Marielle Segarra introduces the theme by distinguishing optimism from blanket positivity:

  “...today we are not talking about positivity. We're talking about optimism.”

• Resiliency & Curiosity (00:39):
  Dr. Chopra states,

  “The two words that really come clear to mind when I'm thinking of optimism is resiliency and curiosity.”

• Realism in Optimism (01:09):
  Deepika explains optimism is knowing setbacks are temporary and surmountable:

  “...they see these things as temporary and something that they can overcome even if they don't know how or when. But they know they can because that's based on their own personal, historical resiliency.” (01:09)

2. Personal Story & The Power of Resilience

• Dr. Chopra’s Life Challenge (01:40):
  Shares her son’s serious medical diagnosis and her family’s journey through adversity.

  “...it was the darkest time of my life.” (01:54)
  “...I may not know what the future holds at all, but I know that I will get through those hard things. They may break me again like this did, but I will put myself back together.” (02:24)

3. Neuroscience & Learnability of Optimism

• Is Optimism Innate? (03:31)
  Andy Tagle asks if people are naturally optimistic or pessimistic.
• Genetics vs. Training (03:49):
  Dr. Chopra responds:

  “...the most that I've ever seen related to a genetic component, a heritability aspect, is 25%. So we have the ability to learn it.”
  “Optimism is a muscle and we just have to work it out.”

• Evolutionary Perspective:
  People are naturally wired for pessimism to survive, but today, chronic pessimism is less adaptive.

4. The Importance of Optimism in Challenging Times

• Pessimism in Uncertain Times (05:07):
  Dr. Chopra argues optimism is most critical during difficult periods.

  “No change can be made without optimism. ...the real work of real optimism and the tools of it is what we need to be able to stay engaged and to keep looking and to keep showing up and to keep deeply caring.” (05:31)
  “We need so many more real optimists right now.” (06:38)

5. Takeaway 1: Optimism Varies and Can Be Strengthened

• Spectrum of Optimism (06:54):
  Optimism isn’t all-or-nothing; people can be optimistic in some life areas and less so in others.
  “Real clear-eyed optimism can be a powerful tool to do that. But it's going to require some mental conditioning.”

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6. Visualization as a Tool for Optimism

• Scientific Basis (07:35):
  Dr. Chopra explains how the brain treats detailed, sensory visualizations as reality, due to mirror neurons.

  “The brain does not necessarily know the difference between something that it is imagining or that is a fantasy and something that is real.” (07:35)

• Disrupting Self-Limiting Beliefs (08:53):
  Deepika’s personal challenge: seeing herself as an active, athletic person.
  Practice: Visualize the desired future as vividly as possible, down to physical sensations and environment.
• Practical Tip (09:35):
  Try visualizing “in the shower... a good place to start because people often have the mental time and space to close their eyes and imagine.”

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7. Affirmations: Words Matter

• Science of Affirmations (10:36):
  Andy Tagle notes skepticism around affirmations but highlights their neurological value when used intentionally.
• Reframing Internal Dialogue (11:51):

  “We are evidence collectors. Our brains love evidence. The brain likes to believe what it already believes.” (11:51, Chopra)
  Confirmation bias makes us seek evidence for existing beliefs—positive or negative.

• The “7 out of 10” Rule (12:47):
  Affirmations are only impactful if you believe them at least a 7/10 for both desire and believability.

  “If the answer is less than a seven for either question, start again. If you don't believe the thing, there's no point to it.”

• Closing the Self-Belief Gap (13:55):
  Don’t jump from “I don’t love myself” to “I’m amazing”—find one thing to like and build from there.
• Handling Everyday Annoyances (14:32):
  Reframe day-to-day frustrations (e.g., getting lost, being delayed) as temporary and not personal failings.

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8. Manifestation: Optimism in Action

• Skepticism Addressed (15:48):
  Deepika defines evidence-based manifestation: dreaming paired with action.

  “...not just wanting to win the lottery and then expecting it to fall into your lap.”

• Story of Her Father (16:44):
  Her father’s youthful vision scrapbooks and the hard work, not just visualization, that enabled his achievements.
• Visualization + Action = Change (17:39):

  “On the whole, I think people really focus on the want and they're not necessarily focusing on the expect, and they're not focusing on the journey and the hard work and actualizing it... real optimism doesn't deny the dark, it just gives us a way to see within it.”

• Journey Over Outcome (18:19):
  Pursuing a dream changes you, even if you don’t end up exactly where you imagined.

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9. Building Daily Optimistic Habits

• "Ta-da List" Ritual (19:43):
  Deepika ends each day noting even the smallest accomplishments—

  “I write down everything that I accomplish and I did. That's what I see before I go to bed...The smaller the better. ...I drank water today.”

• Scheduling Worry Time (20:22):
  Rather than striving for no worries, schedule time to address them, preventing worry from dominating the day.
• Giving Yourself Grace (20:33):

  “Just being able to show up and engage in life without the pressure of perfection and with the idea that we are going to make mistakes.”

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10. Practical Takeaways (Recap at 21:15)

1. Optimism can be learned and is a powerful vehicle for change.
   Train your "optimism muscle"—see setbacks as temporary.
2. Use sensory-based visualization to broaden possibilities.
   Imagine desired outcomes in vivid, realistic detail.
3. Be intentional with your inner narrative and affirmations.
   Self-talk matters. Affirmations only work if you believe them.
4. Evidence-based manifestation = optimism + action.
   Visualize, affirm, then put in the work.
5. Daily rituals create a habit of optimism.
   Ta-da lists, morning dance parties, gratitude expressions, and scheduled worry help cultivate a positive mindset.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Optimism is a muscle and we just have to work it out.”
  — Deepika Chopra (03:49)
• “No change can be made without optimism.”
  — Deepika Chopra (05:31)
• “The brain does not necessarily know the difference between something that it is imagining or that is a fantasy and something that is real.”
  — Deepika Chopra (07:35)
• “We are evidence collectors. Our brains love evidence.”
  — Deepika Chopra (11:51)
• “If the answer is less than a seven for either question, start again. If you don't believe the thing, there's no point to it.”
  — Andy Tagle, on the effectiveness of affirmations (12:47)
• “Real optimism doesn't deny the dark; it just gives us a way to see within it.”
  — Deepika Chopra (17:39)

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Key Timestamps

• 00:13 – Introduction & difference between optimism and positivity
• 01:40 – Dr. Chopra’s personal adversity and resilience
• 03:49 – Learnability of optimism & genetics
• 05:31 – Why optimism matters especially now
• 06:54 – Takeaway 1: Optimism varies by context, can be built
• 07:35 – Visualization’s scientific basis & practical appeal
• 10:36 – Affirmations: how they shape mindset
• 12:47 – The 7/10 rule for meaningful affirmations
• 15:48 – Difference between magical thinking and evidence-based manifestation
• 16:44 – Deepika’s father’s story of vision boards and action
• 19:43 – Building daily optimistic rituals (“ta-da list,” scheduling time to worry)
• 21:15 – Takeaways recap

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Tone & Language

• Empathetic, realistic, and practical
• Balances science with personal storytelling
• Encourages curiosity, engagement, and self-compassion

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Useful for listeners who want research-backed, actionable ways to build resilience and optimism—beyond "good vibes only" cliches.

Transcript

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[Marielle Segarra]

You're listening to Life Kit from npr. Hey, it's Marielle. You ever have somebody say to you, just be positive when you're right in the middle of an impossibly hard life moment and it made you want to just punch them in the face? Well, I'm not trying to get punched. So today we are not talking about positivity. We're talking about optimism.

[Deepika Chopra]

The two words that really come clear to mind when I'm thinking of optimism is resiliency and curiosity.

[Marielle Segarra]

Deepika Chopra is a behavioral scientist with a doctorate in clinical health psychology. And her new book is called the Power of Real Optimism. Now, she says people tend to equate optimism with toxic positivity. And they say an optimist in today's world must either be naive or ignoring reality. But when Deepika talks about optimistic people, she means the ones who are aware

[Deepika Chopra]

of setbacks and roadblocks, but they see these things as temporary and something that they can overcome even if they don't know how or when. But they know they can because that's based on their own personal, historical resiliency.

[Marielle Segarra]

So, quick tip. When you're looking for a shred of optimism in a tough time, remember you can make it through this because you've made it through every single one of your hardest days to date. That's a fact that Deepika clung to when her world turned upside down.

[Deepika Chopra]

A few years ago, my middle son, who at the time was two and a half, got handed this very earth shattering medical diagnosis. And it was the darkest time of my life.

[Marielle Segarra]

Her son was in treatment for a year and a half.

[Deepika Chopra]

I mean, there were many months where I hid underneath my office desk and cried and said, I cannot do this. Like I can't do this.

[Marielle Segarra]

But she could and she did. Time passed. Her son finished treatment. And because of that experience, Deepika says she has a new understanding of just how much she and her family are capable of. It wasn't what you call a positive experience, but it did reinforce her optimism.

[Deepika Chopra]

I may not know what the future holds at all, but I know that I will get through those hard things. They may break me again like this did, but I will put myself back together. I really think that resiliency is a really big part of real optimism.

[Marielle Segarra]

On this episode of Life Kit, Real Optimism Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle talks to Deepika about the neuroscience of optimism, the secret power of visualizations and affirmations, and how to train your brain to be more optimistic on a daily basis.

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[Andy Tagle]

can anyone be an optimist? I took the quiz in your book and I landed on the high end. You know, it felt true to me, like someone who's mostly optimistic. And then I'm thinking of people I've known who seem, you know, naturally more inclined to see the glass half empty. Is that natural? You know, are we innately one way or the other?

[Deepika Chopra]

So there's been a lot of research on this and there's been a little bit of varying, but the most that I've ever seen related to a genetic component, a heritability aspect, is 25%. So we have the ability to learn it. And so that to me is very optimistic and great news. And so I do believe that optimism is a muscle and we just have to work it out. And so I believe that everyone can raise their optimism factor and, you know, way back when, from an evolutionary standpoint, we are more predisposed to be pessimistic. Our ancestors always imagined the worst case scenario. They planned for that and they survived and they passed that trait on. But we know that in our modern world, to survive and to thrive is no longer equated to chronically and constantly imagining worst case scenarios. So we have to actively work this muscle out and train ourselves to be, you know, more optimistic in a real way because there are so many benefits, not just from an emotional standpoint of view, but even a physical standpoint of view that now we have, you know, via research on why optimism is so impactful and effective for you.

[Andy Tagle]

Times are hard for a lot of people right now for a lot of different reasons.

[Deepika Chopra]

Yes.

[Andy Tagle]

And I imagine with this book, with what you do, there's always a certain percent of the population of people who might say, because of the climate, because of all the uncertainty in the world, because of fill in the blank, right now is not the time for optimism. What's your response to those people?

[Deepika Chopra]

I actually feel quite the opposite right now. Is Literally and quite possibly the most important time in our society and culture for real optimism. No change can be made without optimism. So I feel like when people are angry about the way that things are, it's important to have clarity on what's going on. And a lot of what I talk about is the opposite of numbing out or shying away or turning off the news or, you know, ignorance is bliss. I don't actually believe in those things, of course, I believe in boundaries. But I believe that the real work of real optimism and the tools of it is what we need to be able to stay engaged and to keep looking and to keep showing up and to keep deeply caring. You know, our nervous system and our brains and bodies were not actually meant to, they were not made to experience this much. And so we need tools proactively to arm ourselves with so that we can keep, you know, showing up and staying engaged. Because what we don't want are people that are apathetic or that are just numbed out. And so if there's one thing that I think is really necessary right now is to train. We need so many more real optimists right now.

[Andy Tagle]

Takeaway 1 Optimism can be learned. And often many of us experience optimism across a spectrum in different parts of our lives. For example, maybe it's easy for you to stay hopeful when it comes to your career because you've got a lot of experience in that arena, but when it comes to your love life, you're all doom and gloom. So if you're seeking positive change, real clear eyed optimism can be a powerful tool to do that. But it's going to require some mental conditioning takeaway. 2. Try visualizing to shift your beliefs. Sensory based visualization can help direct your attention to desirable outcomes and expand your belief in what is possible.

[Deepika Chopra]

The brain does not necessarily know the difference between something that it is imagining or that is a fantasy and something that is real. And that is because of our mirror neurons. And so once we have visualized something, especially if we've used all of our senses, which make that visualization even more powerful, the brain starts to see that as a possibility and something that can happen. It's the same way in sports psychology. There's a lot of mental rehearsing. A lot of times really elite athletes are not only obviously practicing physically, but they're also mentally rehearsing. Visualization works for so many different things. Number one, I think on a more general level, it is an excellent way to dismantle negative self beliefs. So like, for me right now I have a really, really strong self limiting belief and something that I really need to work on is I do not see myself as a strong bodied, like athletic person. I find it really hard to work out at all. And I really want to be able to be someone that wakes up in the morning or at some point like lifts weights and does something active, gets my heart rate up. And even that is so limiting for me because I label myself and say out loud that that is just not

[Andy Tagle]

me to disrupt that idea. Deepika says she would visualize herself going through that morning routine, being as detailed as possible and immersing herself in the sensory experience of that image. What is she wearing? How heavy are the weights and what do they feel like? What playlist is playing in her headphones?

[Deepika Chopra]

The more you can be specific and rooted in reality. We know this about visual imagery like a if there's a specific place in my house that I see myself doing this, it will serve me better to visualize all the components of that place in detail so that when I go there or I am like met there, it will trip up my brain again with like, wait, I've been here before. I have done this.

[Andy Tagle]

A pro visualization tip for beginners from Deepika Try this practice in the shower. She says it's a good place to start because people often have the mental time and space to close their eyes and imagine another potential option. Whenever you've got a brief waiting period, say when you're in line at the grocery store waiting for your stop at the bus, or during this brief upcoming break, then when we're back, we'll talk Evidence Based Affirmations.

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[Andy Tagle]

you're back listening to Life Kit. What did you imagine while you were away? Were you stronger? Smarter? Kinder? Cooler? Well, I've got another tool to help with that mental image Affirmations. Maybe simply hearing this term due to its seeming ubiquitousness in the self help space in the past few decades, makes you feel feelings. I don't blame you. But Deepika says it's important to know there are good neurological benefits to the practice when you're intentional about it. Takeaway 3 Words matter. Using optimistic language with yourself and those around you can help meaningfully shift your perspective. And reframing your thoughts with more self compassionate language is a common practice in other avenues too, like cognitive behavioral therapy for example, because those negative beliefs can get really sticky. An example I'm sure you're familiar with confirmation bias. Deepika and I talked about our young kids and how quick toddlers can be to embrace or reject a personal attribute like I can't play basketball, I never make it in the hoop, or it's just too hard, I'll never be able to learn to tie my shoes.

[Deepika Chopra]

We are evidence collectors. Our brains love evidence. The brain likes to believe what it already believes. So we have to remind and not just our 2 year olds and like this is just how our brains work. We can truly believe something and then go out in the world and seek out more evidence to make that true, even if that is not the whole story. And so it's this idea that I always tell people like hey, why don't for the rest of the day I want you to think about red cards.

[Andy Tagle]

If you're on the lookout for them, it's like the town's painted red, right? The larger point here being what you're already thinking, already believing your brain will seek out more of to make it true. That's why it's really important to be careful with your internal messaging.

[Deepika Chopra]

If there is a belief that you might have that is not serving you, then we need to work on, you know, other collection of evidence that slowly chip away at that.

[Andy Tagle]

Enter affirmations, phrases you repeat to yourself to reinforce positive beliefs about yourself and others. But they're not all created equal. In order for them to have any impact, you have to actually believe what you're telling yourself. That's why Deepika has a 7 out of 10 rule. As in on a scale of 1 to 10, how much do you want this thing and how much do you actually believe it can happen for you or to you in the near future? If the answer is less than a seven for either question, start again. If you don't believe the thing, there's no point to it.

[Deepika Chopra]

Well, and not even that, like not even, you know, at best it's just not useful. At worst, it's actually pretty detrimental.

[Andy Tagle]

For example, Deepika mentioned a client who desperately wanted a serious relationship in his life. But when she asked him what made him lovable, the idea that he could be lovable was almost laughable to him. So in that case, a daily affirmation of I am Someone's dream come true or even I am worthy of love and affection was just too far outside of his reality to be helpful. It was like a 1 or a 2 out of 10.

[Deepika Chopra]

That is not enough of an expectation that this is going to happen. And so the work for us is in closing that gap. And how we do that is not by a 360 turnaround, blanket affirmation. How we do that is, you know, you hold this belief that I don't, I don't love myself. You know, I don't believe that in myself. So the flip is not what we do. It's more like, hey, can you give me one thing, one thing that you like about yourself?

[Andy Tagle]

This kind of reframing can also be helpful for those little day to day annoyances that when they happen, can feel like they're only ever happening to you.

[Deepika Chopra]

It's like when someone cuts you off and like today it happened. In getting to the studio, I had just the right amount of time and I was just gonna make it, but you know, I made the wrong turn. And immediately I heard myself like, of course it's always the times that I need to get somewhere that I make the wrong decision. You know, this is always going to be this way. Or, you know, it's this idea of permanence when something goes wrong, whereas the flip is sort of when things go wrong. It's not always just you. There's a lot of circumstances like, well, I know I left with just enough time, but next time maybe I had the thought in my head like, I should leave a little extra time for these type of things.

[Andy Tagle]

Think about the last time you stubbed your toe or got on the wrong train or couldn't open a jar of jam. Did you see a terrible, cramped apartment, declare yourself hopeless, or curse the universe for having it out for you? Maybe next time you could see an opportunity to rearrange the furniture and get creative, enjoy the unexpected adventure, or be grateful for that strong, friendly neighbor next door. Our final offering to help shift into a more optimistic mindset, manifestation. I'll go ahead and let Deepika address your concerns right up front.

[Deepika Chopra]

I am not in the camp that believes in just wanting to win the lottery and then expecting it to fall into your lap. I think there is just like, and I think most people now get to the point where, understand that, they understand that, but there is still a lot of sort of the touting of that.

[Andy Tagle]

The common misconception about manifestation, she says, is that it's a passive practice. People assume you can just will the universe to provide radiate some positive energy and then wait for the good times to roll in. Deepika's practice, on the other hand, what she calls evidence based manifestation is optimism backed up by action. To illustrate her point, she told me about her dad who came to the US with $8 in his pocket from a small town in India. Today he's a successful engineer and businessman. But before he had those titles and before he immigrated, he would cut out

[Deepika Chopra]

like cars and various different things and keep a scrapbook. And not even just dream, but like, these things will be part of my life. And pretty much everything that was in that scrapbook of his has come to fruition.

[Andy Tagle]

That's not because Deepika's dad made an OG vision board and then wished real hard on it. He left it behind in India. But he did zero in on his goals and his belief he could achieve them. So much so that he put in the blood, sweat and tears to make them a reality until they were.

[Deepika Chopra]

Only later did I learn about this scrapbook. And it was like, whoa, all these things. Like he's living them, not because they fell in his lap. Like he made all of those things happen and he believed he could.

[Andy Tagle]

So Takeaway 4 got big dreams, hoping for a brighter future. Evidence based manifestation is optimism in action. It can help get you moving on that journey by shifting your attention, energy and beliefs towards your goals.

[Deepika Chopra]

On the whole, I think people really focus on the want and they're not necessarily focusing on the expect, and they're not focusing on the journey and the hard work and actualizing it. And so yes, you can visualize something, but in order to actualize it, it is a journey and it takes work. And you have to be also willing to visualize the setbacks and the less than ideal situations and the hiccups and how will you be during those parts of it too. Because none of us are immune to struggle. I always say, you know, real optimism doesn't deny the dark, it just gives us a way to see within it.

[Andy Tagle]

Let's say growing up you really wanted to be an astronaut. Just believing it's possible to set foot on the moon wouldn't be enough to get you into a spacesuit, of course. But if you hold onto that dream throughout your school years, that enthusiasm might lead you to certain books or clubs or friends, inspire you to pursue a particular university or major or entire career path.

[Deepika Chopra]

You're going to come up with so many ideas and you're going to understand what the work is. And then on top of it, if you Persevere through that. Maybe along the way, while you're doing this, something else comes out of it that you want even more.

[Andy Tagle]

Because trying to manifest something does not guarantee you'll get exactly what you're hoping for. But as they say, shoot for the moon, land among the stars.

[Deepika Chopra]

So we have to know the purpose and the why. Then our brain starts unlocking, you know, the path forward and we took it. And either we continue going down that path or it opens new paths for us, right?

[Andy Tagle]

Such that when we look back, you know, 10 years from now, we'll be like the universe conspired. Yes, we manifested this, right? But optimism isn't just a practice for the future. Seeing the upside is plenty beneficial in the present moment, albeit sometimes equally hard to find. Our last takeaway number five. Set yourself up for success on a daily basis with optimistic rituals. Maybe that means taking time to celebrate small wins at the end of each day.

[Deepika Chopra]

I make something every night and I it's called a ta da list instead of a to do list. I write down everything that I accomplish and I did. That's what I see before I go to bed. And it is so helpful. And I also do this with my children because when I go to bed, I want to feel a sense of purpose and like a win. That's how I go to sleep. And the smaller the better. I mean, there are things on my list that are like, I drank water today.

[Andy Tagle]

Maybe a morning dance party is more your style. That's another tip from Deepika's playbook. Or maybe it's enough for you just to set stricter boundaries around when you allow yourself to sit with your woes. It'd be great if you didn't have any, of course.

[Deepika Chopra]

But we are going to worry. Worry is part of our existence. And so one thing that I do that is really helpful is I actually schedule worry time into my day.

[Andy Tagle]

Remember, for better and worse, nothing is forever. Do what you can when you can, give yourself some grace.

[Deepika Chopra]

Just being able to show up and engage in life without the pressure of perfection and with the idea that we are going to make mistakes. And again, none of us are immune to struggle. But how we are sort of navigating and what tools we have at our disposal and we are equipped with to walk through these moments are important for us and people around us.

[Andy Tagle]

Deepika Chopra, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your optimism.

[Deepika Chopra]

Thank you for having me.

[Andy Tagle]

Things are looking up. Let's recap why takeaway 1. Optimism can be a powerful vehicle for positive change. We can all train to be more optimistic by conditioning our future minded brains to be more curious, resilient and see the bad times as temporary. Takeaway 2 Sensory based visualization can help direct your attention to desirable outcomes and expand your belief in what is possible. Takeaway 3 the stories we tell ourselves and the people around us can have a big impact, so be careful and deliberate with the words you use. Reinforce your optimistic outlook with specific personal affirmations and language that leave room for growth and change. Takeaway 4 evidence based manifestation puts your optimism into action. If you have your sight set on a goal, visualize and affirm the belief you can achieve it. Then go do the work. Takeaway 5 Set yourself up for success by building opportunities for optimism into your daily schedule. Make a habit of a morning dance party schedule, worry time, write out a ta da list before bed, or just express some gratitude to someone somewhere in your day. I'm sure it's not that hard to find an opportunity.

[Marielle Segarra]

That was Life Kit reporter Andy Tagle, and that's our show. Hey, one last thing. Would you consider rating and reviewing Life Kit in your podcast app? It helps grow the show and spread the word. Here's a review I liked from a listener called Frank Lee. Sometimes I think y' all are reading my mind or filming me for ideas. Every damn Life Kit is like everything I'm thinking recently.

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Lol.

[Marielle Segarra]

I love y'.

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All.

[Marielle Segarra]

I love y' all too. Be like Frank. Help us spread the word about Life Kit. Leave us a review in your podcast app right now. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Sylvie Douglas and Mika Ellison. Our digital editor is Malika Garib, Megan Keane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Claire Marie Schneider and Margaret Serino. Engineering support comes from Tiffany Vera Castro. Fact checking by William Chase and Barclay Walsh. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

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