Make your small space feel bigger

Summary

Life Kit – "Make your small space feel bigger" (June 2, 2026)

Podcast: Life Kit (NPR)
Host: Marielle Segarra
Guest/Reporter: Andy Tagle
Featured Experts: Shemeika Lynch (Maximizing Tiny Interiors), Faith Roberson (Professional Organizer), Alexandra Gater (Home Decor Expert)

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Episode Overview

This episode of Life Kit unpacks practical strategies to help listeners transform small spaces—like studio apartments or compact homes—into rooms that feel spacious, functional, and personalized. Host Marielle Segarra is joined by reporter Andy Tagle and several design and organizing experts, who share tips for decluttering, zoning, arranging furniture, leveraging vertical and wall space, and employing decor tricks to maximize visual spaciousness without major renovations or big budgets.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Unique Challenge of Small Spaces

• Every item must earn its place: Unlike larger homes, small spaces don’t have the luxury of “bonus” or decorative-only rooms; each piece needs to have a function, often more than one (04:40).
  • Quote: “No room can be just an extra room. ...Every single item in your home needs to serve a purpose. And our motto is that everything in your home should work for you. And work is a verb... it needs to have at least two functions.”
    (Shemeika Lynch, 04:40)
• Maximizing vertical and hidden spaces, and using every nook and cranny, becomes essential.

2. Clutter Is the Enemy of Small Spaces

• Decluttering comes first: Before redecorating, pare down to essentials to see what space and storage you actually need.
  • Quote: “What is really the enemy of small spaces is clutter. ...Once you pare down to the things that you really need, it's a lot easier to see how much space you actually need for storage, how you can get creative with solutions...”
    (Andy Tagle, 05:05)
• Organizing with intention and ensuring items have designated homes creates better flow (06:20).

3. The Power of Zoning

• Zoning: Dividing an open space into functional 'zones' without major walls or renovations. Use rugs, furniture placement, and changes in decor to define living, dining, work, or play areas (01:44, 08:20).
  • Quote: “There's no reason why you can't have a dining room and a living room and a kitchen and a movie area all in that one open room.”
    (Andy Tagle, 01:44)
• Rugs are especially effective for this purpose.
  • Quote: “Everywhere the rug touches is the living room, Right? ...There's a dining room rug, right. That says, you know, this is where the dining room is. So rugs really help for that to define those spaces.”
    (Shemeika Lynch, 08:20)

4. Furniture Arrangement

• Floating furniture: Don’t push everything against the wall; leave three to five inches for a sense of depth—this tricks the eye into seeing more space (00:35, 11:15).
  • Quote: “If everything's not up against the wall, you can do it like three to five inches. ...It gives you the feeling of more space.”
    (Andy Tagle, 00:35)
• You can anchor a “floated” couch with a console table or a rug to ground the arrangement (11:49).
• Proportion over size: Avoid the “dollhouse effect” by not filling the space with too many small items; large, well-chosen pieces can actually make rooms feel more intentional (12:32).
  • Quote: “If you put too many small things in a space, it creates visual clutter. It almost looks like a mistake because the scale is off.”
    (Shemeika Lynch, 12:32)
• Multipurpose large furniture is welcome, as long as it fits your lifestyle and space priorities (13:09).

5. Creative Storage and Repurposing

• Double the function of favorites and heirlooms by repurposing: For example, a Craigslist hutch becomes a wardrobe, then a shoe cabinet (13:39).
  • Quote: “It has lived nine lives...But it's all about how you style it. ...it becomes a part of, like, art in the space. But it also solves a really big issue... which is not having a home for my shoes.” (Faith Roberson, 13:39)
• Use under-bed containers, high cabinets, and vertical solutions.

6. Walls, Paint, and Curtains

• Continuity over accent walls: To visually expand a room, experts recommend using a consistent color palette (14:31).
  • Quote: “If your goal is to make your small space bigger, you want continuity. ...Be consistent in your palette.” (Andy Tagle, 14:43)
• Color drenching: Paint everything—walls, trim, ceiling—the same color to add perceived height and unity.
• Wallpaper: Using wallpaper on ceilings is trending, but it’s a commitment. For less commitment, adjust curtain placement (15:38).
• Curtains: Hang curtains 6–12 inches above and 4–10 inches wider than the window frame, and have them “just kiss the floor” to make windows—and therefore rooms—feel taller (16:11-16:20).
  • Quote: “Just kissing the floor is the rule that I love to follow when it comes to curtains.” (Marielle Segarra, 16:16)

7. Art Placement and Mirrors

• Hang at eye level. Keep the center of art at eye height; for gallery walls, about 2–4 inches between frames (16:51).
• Anchor gallery walls: Place them above anchored furniture or consider creative gallery placements—like in corners—for added spatial effect.
• Mirrors: Always good for small spaces; they reflect light and add depth. Floor mirrors are popular, but small and over-the-door mirrors also help (17:53).
  • Quote: “All the mirrors all the time. Yes.”
    (Andy Tagle, 17:55)

8. Approaching Home Improvement

• Don’t rush—let your home’s evolution unfold naturally. It’s normal to feel “never done” (18:55).
  • Quote: “Finding that flow is kind of like doing a jigsaw puzzle. There's always, like, one more piece to put back together.”
    (Faith Roberson, 19:15)
• Live your life “in pencil”—rooms are for living, not just for Instagram (19:33-19:54).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “The clutter monster always lives again.”
  — Andy Tagle, on the ongoing challenge of decluttering (05:50)
• “You're like, this is like normal size person with, like, little baby doll hands. Is there something unsettling? And I think that that happens when your rug is too small.”
  — Marielle Segarra (09:05)
• “Your home never looks like a magazine or Instagram. But, like, would you want it to?”
  — Andy Tagle (19:49)
• “We do kind of have to live our lives in pencil.”
  — Marielle Segarra (19:33)

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Significant Timestamps

• 00:35: Introduction to "floating" furniture
• 01:44: Explaining zoning; creating multiple zones in open spaces
• 04:40: The necessity for every item in a small space to have multiple functions
• 05:05: Decluttering as the starting point for reimagining small spaces
• 06:20: Dispersing and organizing belongings with flow in mind
• 08:20: Using rugs for zoning and defining room areas
• 09:56: Tips for budget-friendly rug sourcing
• 11:15: Deep dive into furniture arrangement and floating
• 12:32: Explanation of the "dollhouse effect" with small furniture
• 13:39: Repurposing large furniture pieces for function and aesthetics
• 14:31 - 15:35: Color drenching, wallpaper tendencies, and curtain placement
• 16:51: Strategies for hanging art in small spaces
• 17:53: Maximizing the effect of mirrors
• 18:55: Psychological aspects of decorating and letting the process unfold
• 19:15: Using the jigsaw puzzle metaphor for building flow at home

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Actionable Recap (20:00)

• 1. Declutter first: Free up both physical and mental space.
• 2. Use vertical and creative storage: Install high shelves, use under-bed storage, and seek multi-functional furniture.
• 3. Prioritize proportion and scale: Large, practical furniture is OK if it fits your needs and leaves the room feeling balanced.
• 4. Create zones and visual layers: Utilize rugs, floating furniture, mirrors, and creative paint or curtain tactics to divide and expand spaces visually.

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Conclusion

"Make your small space feel bigger" presents practical, low-cost approaches to maximizing utility and spaciousness in compact homes. The episode blends humor and personal stories with pro advice, empowering listeners to transform their space on their timeline, with their personality shining through.

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For more tips and visuals from Life Kit, follow @NPRLifeKit on Instagram!

Transcript

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[Marielle Segarra]

You're listening to Life Kit from npr.

[Andy Tagle]

You want to float furniture? Do you want to float it, girl?

[Marielle Segarra]

No, no, no. Because what does that even.

[Andy Tagle]

That is going to look so weird

[Marielle Segarra]

in my place, apparently.

[Andy Tagle]

No, I mean, it's an optical illusion that you actually have a little more square footage. If everything's not up against the wall, you can do it like three to five inches. It's not like you put it in the center of your living room. If you go to an open house where they've staged it, you'll notice that they never put all of the furniture up against the wall. They always do it, like, just a little. It gives you the feeling of more space.

[Marielle Segarra]

All right, reporter Andy Tagle coming in straight away with the tips. I'm Marielle Segadra, and today on Life Kit, we're talking about how to make a small space feel bigger, apparently. And I would say counterintuitively, leaving space between your furniture and the wall is one way to do that. We'll see. Maybe I'll try it. I will say I'm in one of those moments with my apartment right now where I'm looking around and I'm like, it's time to change everything.

[Andy Tagle]

Oh, yeah.

[Marielle Segarra]

Even though I think it's cute, you know, like, it's time for a new paint color or it's time for a new couch or whatever. But I think part of that is, as my life has changed, I want to use this space for different things. And especially in a small space, one room does have to perform multiple functions. And then you have to think about, like, what is my priority here?

[Andy Tagle]

I have a word for you. The word is zoning. Uh, and the idea is that you can have. Even though, even if you have just one space, if you have an open floor plan, zoning just means, like, you can zone off different areas of the open floor plan. There's no reason why you can't have a dining room and a living room and a kitchen and a movie area all in that one open room.

[Marielle Segarra]

All right, well, coming up on this episode of Life Kit, we're going to talk more about floating your furniture. We're going to talk about zoning, about floor arrangements, about how to hang your art.

[Andy Tagle]

Lots of low budget and and non permanent solutions to make your space your own.

[Marielle Segarra]

That's after the break.

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[Narrator/Reporter]

It's June and another big week in the run up to the midterms primaries in half a dozen states, including California, where new congressional maps are in place and a chaotic race for governor is wide open. We're also following gas prices and Iran. So far, talk of a peace deal is just talk. We'll keep you posted. Listen every morning up first on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

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[Marielle Segarra]

to think about when we're designing small spaces specifically? Like, how's it different when you're trying to make a studio apartment or a one bedroom your own versus a three acre farmhouse or a ten room mansion?

[Andy Tagle]

It's a good question. Let me introduce you to Shemeika Lynch. She is the founder and principal designer of Maximizing Tiny Interiors in New Jersey. And her answer was, you know, in a lot of ways a home is a home is a home. So you know, people gotta cook, people gotta work, kids need room to play and do their homework. So a lot is the same. But here's what she says is really essential to the design of small spaces specifically.

[Narrator/Reporter]

No room can be just an extra room. You don't have any extra square footage where it's like, oh well, that's just going to be decorative. Every single item in your home needs to serve a purpose. And our motto is that everything in your home should work for you. And work is a verb there where it needs to have at least two Functions. Right. Your living room is probably also functioning as your dining room and also functioning as your playroom.

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah, you really have to make use

[Andy Tagle]

of all the space you have, every nook and cranny. And then the other thing is downsizing. All the experts I spoke to said that like more than furniture size or picking the wrong paint color, what is really the enemy of small spaces is clutter. If you have a small space that you want to rearrange, the very first thing you need to do is declutter. Because once you pare down to the things that you really need, it's a lot easier to see how much space you actually need for storage, how you can get creative with solutions, and overall it can just help you be more intentional with planning your space.

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah, I always think that I've tackled my clutter and then there's another round of decluttering and I'm like, wha? Like I thought I needed this thing six months ago, but it turns out I really don't.

[Andy Tagle]

The clutter monster always lives again. After tackling your clutter or your latest clutter monster, at least you want to organize your stuff in a way that actually makes sense for your life. Right. Faith Roberson is a professional organizer and decluttering coach in New York City. And she lived for a while in a 550 square foot studio. And she wrote the book what Stays and what how to Organize with Intention and Create Space for Grace. What she told me is when everything has a specific home and a specific purpose, you're going to work better and you're going to feel better.

[Faith Roberson]

The key to small spaces is learning how to disperse things in multiple areas in order to create a flow and a sense of harmony in the space. I had to start to think, okay, where am I going to put my workout? You know, where am I gonna put this? Under my bed? I had storage. Of course, that's like a no brainer. And also using the height of the cabinets was important. Just going all the way up to the ceiling.

[Marielle Segarra]

She talks about flow. What does it mean for a space to have good flow?

[Andy Tagle]

Yeah, I feel like this is a term that you hear a lot when it comes to designing, decorating, but the definition is a little bit slippery. So Shemeka told me when she thinks about flow, she thinks about how well all the elements of a home are working for the people who live in it. So for example, in your kitchen, you know, when you go to put your dishes on the drying rack, is it easy to do? Is it right there? Are you Tracking water all over the floor with every dish. That might be one example. If you have to dig in and out of a closet every morning, if you have to hop up and over workout equipment every day, might be time to rethink.

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah, that makes sense. And then you also, if you think about that ahead of time, then you know what you might need to buy or repurpose rather than just sort of aimlessly going to a storage store and getting stuff that's not going to work for you.

[Andy Tagle]

Right.

[Marielle Segarra]

Well, I know the experts gave you a lot of tips for the apartment from the ground up. Really? So let's start with the ground, huh?

[Andy Tagle]

Let's do it.

[Marielle Segarra]

Floor coverings. What'd you learn about that?

[Andy Tagle]

Okay, general rule, I would say, from the experts across the board, rugs are a good idea in small spaces. They are a quick and easy way to add warmth, to add texture, personality to a space. So if you don't have one, you want to add that to the top of your list. Another great thing about rugs, you zoning. So they are a great way to create distinct areas in your home. I thought this was a wonderful tip from Shamika. She works with a lot of people who live in open floor plans, and she says sometimes she doesn't have to buy something new. She'll just reorient a room by switching up a rug.

[Narrator/Reporter]

Everywhere the rug touches is the living room, Right? That's the living room rug, like Lion King. Everywhere the light touches is. Is yours. And even if you're. Even if your dining room is right next to the living room, which mine is, there's a dining room rug, Right. That says, you know, this is where the dining room is. So rugs really help for that to define those spaces.

[Marielle Segarra]

It can be a little hard to know what size rug to get.

[Andy Tagle]

I would say, generally speaking, you want to go bigger instead of smaller. When you go too small, the ratios can be off, and it can make a room feel accidental.

[Marielle Segarra]

It reminds me of when Kristen Wiig used to do this on snl. Wear those doll hats. Yeah, it's like the proportions are off.

[Andy Tagle]

Yes.

[Marielle Segarra]

You're like, this is like normal size person with, like, little baby doll hands. Is there something unsettling? And I think that that happens when your rug is too small.

[Andy Tagle]

Yeah, that is exactly right. The. The proportions are off. So to help us think through ratio, I'll turn to Alexandra Gator. She's a home decor expert who specializes in making over small spaces for her YouTube channel. It's really fun. Definitely worth a watch. She told me if she had to put a number to it. You want to aim to cover around 75% of a room with your rugged Whoa. Yeah, it's a lot like more than you think. You know, you maybe want to have a clear walkway in between one space or another, one room or another. But. But generally speaking, you want to have at least the two legs of a couch, the two legs of any chairs. Or if you can fit everything. Like if you can fit an entire living room set on a rug, that's a good idea.

[Marielle Segarra]

I will say rugs can be kind of expensive, especially if you're getting a big one.

[Andy Tagle]

Yeah, it's definitely a higher ticket item when it comes to redecorating. So I did a little bit of sourcing online for you. Rugs USA and Ikea seem to be a couple of the top spots people turn to for low cost brand new quality rugs. Facebook, Marketplace and Offerup also not bad ideas for secondhand options.

[Marielle Segarra]

Coming up, how to arrange your furniture to make your room feel bigger. That's after the break.

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[Marielle Segarra]

okay, let's move on to furniture arrangement. We were talking about floating furniture. Can you just explain exactly what that means and why we were supposedly supposed to do it?

[Andy Tagle]

Okay, so floating means you don't put your furniture, say a couch right up against the wall. You just leave some space behind it. And what that does is create the illusion of additional depth and it can actually make a room seem bigger. Another version of that is you can also float your furniture into the middle of a big open room or big long room and you can use it to zone the space into different sections. So for example, you can turn that couch sideways and define a space too. Like this is living room and this is the dining room or whatever.

[Marielle Segarra]

What do we do about the back of the couch thing? Like having to look at the back of the couch?

[Andy Tagle]

You anchor it. That was Alexandra's idea. If the floating feels weird, maybe you put a little console there. Maybe it's your desk, right? You anchor it. You put a rug underneath that whole thing. So that you have your specific zones and it grounds the whole area.

[Marielle Segarra]

What about the size of your furniture? Like, how do you decide how big of a couch to get or how big of a table to get?

[Andy Tagle]

I would say overall. And surprisingly, the experts cautioned more against going too small rather than going too big. Like, the first example that came to my mind was like, a dorm room in college that hasn't been decorated yet. You see a big blank wall, and all they have is, like, a teeny tiny picture or two from home on that big blank wall. And it just doesn't look right. It doesn't feel. Apparently, there's a name for this kind of feeling.

[Narrator/Reporter]

They call it the dollhouse effect, where, you know, if you put too many small things in a space, it creates visual clutter. It almost looks like a mistake because the scale is off. Let's say I have a sofa that is 84 inches. If I have a 5 by 7 rug, it looks like there's something missing. Something else needs to go there.

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah, I'm thinking about too, like, regarding the size of the furniture, obviously you also have to think about how you're using it and what your priorities are. Like, for me, I really wanted an extra deep couch this time, just to be able to fit more people on it.

[Andy Tagle]

Yeah, you don't have to go small just because you're in a small space. You do want to be purposeful with the large furniture that you buy. You want to make sure that you're buying it for the right reasons with the lifestyle that you have in mind. Another question that I had was, you know, what if you have something that you really love? You know, like a keepsake family heirloom that you love, but it isn't super, super practical? And Faith had a really good answer for this. Like, can you make it functional? You know, you don't necessarily need to buy something new. You don't need to toss it. You need to put it in storage. Faith told me about this hutch that she's had for a million years.

[Faith Roberson]

I think it was like an entertainment center or something. I got on Craigslist, and then I added a pole and made it into a wardrobe. And then here, I brought it here, and I just added shelves and turned it into, like, a shoe cabinet. It has lived nine lives, and it's big, and my living room isn't that big, wide, so it takes up space. But it's all about how you style it. Right? So then I put this really beautiful, like, plant next to it, and I think I have Like a lamp on the other side. And it becomes a part of, like, art in the space. But it also solves a really big issue that I have, which is not having a home for my shoes.

[Marielle Segarra]

I love that.

[Andy Tagle]

Yeah.

[Marielle Segarra]

I love having that piece that stays with you and that you can alter over time.

[Andy Tagle]

Yeah.

[Marielle Segarra]

Okay, let's talk more about walls. What about wall paint and wallpaper? What did you learn?

[Andy Tagle]

So I have some news for you, Marielle. I know that you have some feelings about this, but apparently the accent wall is out for small spaces.

[Marielle Segarra]

You know, I like my accent wall. I think it looks nice.

[Andy Tagle]

I'm sure that it does. Let me explain to you why. Basically, they were saying, if your goal is to make your small space bigger, they were saying you want continuity. I was kind of expecting them to say, you want white or light colors. I was expecting, you know, invite light. You want to make it as sunshiny as you can in a small space to expand it, avoid darker, moodier tones. But really, no. They were like, whatever you like, go for it. But what is important is to be consistent in your palette. One idea that was popular was color drenching. So Shemeka said, if you don't have fancy trim, if you have just, like, plain baseboards, you could paint the trim the same color. So go from your baseboards all the way up to your ceiling. Consider doing that all the same color, and that continuity can create some extra space, can create extra height and depth for you. Wallpaper. Alexandra said wallpaper on ceilings is a thing that's popular, and she loves. Yeah, you could go big Stop. Yeah.

[Marielle Segarra]

Is that hard to do, though? I'd be breaking my neck.

[Andy Tagle]

She said it's a commitment. She did say it's a commitment. So something to think about. Um, slightly less of commitment, but can help your make your space bigger curtains. So one good idea is just to hang your curtains a little bit higher and a little bit wider than your window frame. One guide I saw said about 6 to 12 inches higher than where your window frame is. And then you want to extend your curtain rod 4 to 10 inches beyond that frame. And doing that can help extend your eye. And then Alexandra had a great rule of thumb about how long your curtains should be.

[Marielle Segarra]

Making sure your curtains just kiss the floor. Find, like, pooling curtains. It just collects dust. It doesn't look like you've thought it through. So just kind of kissing the floor is the rule that I love to

[Andy Tagle]

follow when it comes to curtains, just kiss the floor.

[Marielle Segarra]

What about art? I have a gallery wall, and although I think that I did it partly because I don't know how to do anything else. Like, in terms of art, I feel like when I've just had a big piece, it's never been big enough, or two big pieces, they've never been big enough. And then everything feels kind of empty, I guess. I wonder, is there a science to this, like, to how to hang your art in small spaces to make it feel bigger?

[Andy Tagle]

So one rule for you, Shamika said, for hanging art, the center of your art should be at eye level when you're hanging art. So for gallery wall specifically, Shemeka said, you know, it is okay to go on vibes. She said she aims for roughly 2 to 4 inches of space between frames or between items. She did say that thing about gallery walls is sometimes in small spaces, they can get a little bit busy. So you want to make sure if you're doing it in a big open space that you have a piece of furniture to anchor it. A nice, open, sparse hallway is a good idea. For gallery wall, you could do a gallery wall in a corner to create the illusion of space. So it doesn't necessarily need to be one flat wall. Another one is like a triptych situation. So if you have a piece of art that you really like, you can print it out over three. Get like three frames, blow it up, like over your bed. Say, that can create the illusion of, like, expanding the wall and then generally speaking, having different frame textures, different frame depths, you know, like shadow box situations, can create more visual interest, create more depth there.

[Marielle Segarra]

What about mirrors?

[Andy Tagle]

Yes is my answer. Yes, you want them. Good for small spaces. Helps expand the space, helps catch more light. Alexandra said, a lot of people are really into floor mirrors right now. Very popular. But she said hanging mirrors, small ones in your gallery wall, ones that you can hang over the door for space saving measures. All the mirrors all the time. Yes.

[Marielle Segarra]

These are all such great ideas. And I'm in the midst of a lot of home improvement right now. I don't even know when this started or how this happened because I thought I was in a place where I was, like, settled in the apartment. I'd made a lot of changes, and I was like, okay, now we're good. But suddenly here I am in the vortex again. And it's fun, but it's also kind of, I don't know, I have this sense of urgency to it. Like, I need to do everything now, and the space isn't good enough as it is right now, which I think is a trap. I guess I just Like, I try to remind myself that it's okay to let this unfold over time.

[Andy Tagle]

Right. As long as your house still feels like home when you get back at the end of the day, you know, I think that's what's important. There's always going to be something left to be done. Yeah, right. I was talking to Faith about a similar idea, and she said, if you haven't found your flow in your home yet, you should just keep working at it and doing that. Finding that flow is kind of like doing a jigsaw puzzle. There's always, like, one more piece to put back together.

[Faith Roberson]

Have you ever put a piece in a puzzle and it looks like it should fit? Right? And then there's like this little sliver of space and you convince yourself that it's the right piece, and then you start building on the puzzle and you can only go so far before you're like, oh, this is not. And it's messing up the way I can move forward. Organizing is like that.

[Marielle Segarra]

Mm, that reminds me of Sudoku when I'm very far down the Sudoku puzzle and I'm like, oh, my God, that's not good thing. I did this in pencil. But it's understanding that we do kind of have to live our lives in pencil.

[Andy Tagle]

You're right. Your home never looks like a magazine or Instagram. But, like, would you want it to?

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah. Andy, thank you so much for this.

[Andy Tagle]

Oh, it's been a pleasure. Let me know if you fill your furniture.

[Marielle Segarra]

I'm gonna try. I'll try it. Maybe I'll do a little shelf behind it. All right, folks, it's time for a recap. Takeaway 1. To make your small space feel bigger, you want to start by decluttering. When you get rid of the stuff you don't actually use or want around, you will literally have more space, and it'll be easier to make a plan and reimagine your home in a way that flows. Takeaway 2. Small spaces need to work harder for you, so make the most of your vertical space. Think about high up shelves, for instance, and get creative with your storage. For instance, I just got a couch and it has storage built into the seats. Takeaway three, you can have big, beautiful furniture in a small space, but you have to be mindful of proportion and scale. You want to make sure the space flows and that it's usable. Also, this is about trade offs. If your couch takes up most of the living room, you may not have space for a big dining table. So think about your priorities and how you actually want to use your home takeaway 4 In tight spaces, you can create the illusion of height and depth that might look like floating your furniture or painting the walls creatively, or using rugs or a console table or a bookshelf to separate your space into zones. It could also mean adding mirrors or hanging your curtains higher. You've got a lot of options. All right, that's our show. If you love Life Kit and you want even more, why not follow us on Instagram NPR Life Kit. There you'll find videos featuring our favorite tips and comics on topics like how to talk to your baby and how to turn your lawn into a native plant garden. You can find Those by following NPRLifeKit. This episode of Life Kit was produced by Claire Marie Schneider and reported by Andy Tagle. It was edited by Sylvie Douglas. Our digital editor is Malika Garib and our visuals editor is CJ Reekalon. Meghan Keane is our senior supervising editor and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Margaret Serino. Engineering support comes from Tiffany, Vera Castro and Becky Brown. I'm Marielle Segarra. Thanks for listening.

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