You don't have to use dating apps. But if you do - some tips!

Summary

Life Kit (NPR) Episode Summary

Episode: “You don't have to use dating apps. But if you do - some tips!”
Host: Marielle Segarra
Guest: Marissa Cohen (Relationship scientist, marriage and family therapist)
Date: April 27, 2026

---

Overview: Navigating Dating Apps With Sanity and Self-Respect

This episode of Life Kit tackles the love-hate relationship many of us have with dating apps: Why do so many people dislike them but still feel compelled to use them? Host Marielle Segarra and guest Marissa Cohen offer practical, thoughtful advice for anyone considering dating apps or feeling jaded by the dating pool. The episode’s main purpose is to help listeners use dating apps more intentionally—with boundaries, clear communication, and a healthy sense of perspective—while also validating that opting out is a perfectly legitimate choice.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Are Dating Apps So Frustrating—But Hard to Avoid?

• Many feel pressured to be on the apps because “it feels like everyone is meeting that way” (Marissa Cohen, 00:58).
• Apps serve as “an access point, a way to meet people you wouldn’t otherwise,” but they’re far from the only way to find connection (01:21).
• Main message: Keep apps in perspective—they are not a “second job” you have to take on (01:29).

2. The Gamification and Addictive Quality of Dating Apps

• Dating apps use the same psychological principles as slot machines—intermittent rewards keep users hooked.

“It’s a little dopamine hit every time you get that notification… same principles that slot machines operate under.” (Marissa Cohen, 03:52)

• Fear of missing out (FOMO) drives compulsive monitoring and overuse (04:42).

3. Setting Boundaries To Prevent Burnout

• It’s common to treat swiping or going on dates like a “numbers game,” but this leads to emotional exhaustion (05:08).
• Boundary Strategies:
  • Limit time spent on apps per day or week (05:37).
  • Take breaks—step away entirely if you’re feeling burnt out (05:37).
  • Limit number of swipes (“I’m only allowed to swipe on 20 people today”) to be more mindful and avoid mindless scrolling (06:22).

“Am I experiencing burnout? Am I starting to approach these dates in a frustrated way?” (Marissa Cohen, 05:37)

4. Honesty and Clarity: Know What You Want (and Communicate It)

• Be clear about your own goals: Are you seeking love, sex, friendship, validation—or just entertainment? (08:18)
• Make sure your profile matches your intentions; don’t try to “optimize” it for random appeal (08:18).

“If that doesn’t accurately represent who you are as a person, that match isn’t gonna work out for you in the long run anyway.” (Marissa Cohen, 08:18)

• Authenticity in photos and bios is crucial: showcase what really matters to you (10:10).

5. Cut Down on Messaging—Meet Sooner

• Long, drawn-out messaging is usually unproductive. Get to a quick coffee, drink, or even a 10-minute video call (11:20).
• Signal in your profile that you prefer to move off the app promptly.

“I love that. I tell people that they should get to the first date as quickly as they can that they feel comfortable with.” (Marissa Cohen, 11:38)

6. Boundaries, Values & Dealbreakers (Including Sex and Relationship Structure)

• There can be pressure (internal or external) around sex—move at your own pace, not someone else’s timeline (15:55).
• Don’t compromise core needs (e.g., desire for monogamy or polyamory), even if tempted by someone you like (17:02).

“Your needs are important. Your wants are important... Even if you meet a really great person who doesn’t have the same relationship related goals... they’re not going to be a match.” (Marissa Cohen, 17:02)

7. Recognizing Unhealthy Patterns With Dating Apps

• Warning signs:
  • Losing track of time, missing meals or responsibilities (19:38).
  • Feeling obligation or “shoulds” about app usage or dating itself.
  • Dreading dates or feeling that it’s just an item to check off.

“When there’s a loss of awareness of time… maybe your usage is not the most helpful.” (Marissa Cohen, 19:38)

• Take breaks when needed—it's okay to focus on friendships, hobbies, or just being single for a while (22:17).

---

Takeaways (with Host’s Recaps & Guidance)

[Time references indicate where each main point is summarized in Marielle’s voice, reinforcing the key insights.]

1. Set Boundaries
   • Designate specific times for app use or set swiping/message limits. (07:33, 22:52)
2. Clarify Your Purpose
   • Honestly assess your real motives—then communicate those to others. (09:43, 22:55)
3. Save Time and Energy
   • Move efficiently to real-life meetings; use video calls as a screener. (12:53, 22:59)
4. Don’t Compromise on Core Needs
   • Know what you want; being solo is always a valid and worthy choice. (19:10, 23:04)
5. Monitor Your Mental Health
   • If you feel drained, pressured, or unhappy, it’s okay to opt out. (21:45, 23:10)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Dating apps, just like with any other app, it's gamified... so it keeps you in it.” (Marissa Cohen, 03:52)
• “There are no such thing as shoulds in this case. Like, you need to do what's right for you.” (Marissa Cohen, 19:38)
• “It is much better to be happily single than to be in a relationship that isn’t meeting your needs.” (Marissa Cohen, 18:29)
• “You can say I'm tired of the apps. I'm gonna stop using them—full stop.” (Marielle Segarra, 22:12)
• “I started to resent the idea that something as personal as romantic love had to be mediated through this device, my smartphone.” (Marielle Segarra, 24:23)

---

Useful Timestamps for Key Segments

• 00:46 — Marissa Cohen introduces the pressure around dating apps.
• 03:34 — Discussion on the addictive, slot-machine-like mechanics of dating apps.
• 05:08 — Stories of dating burnout and strategies for boundaries.
• 06:39 — Limiting the number of swipes and pace to avoid gamification trap.
• 08:18 — Importance of honesty in profiles and intentions.
• 11:20 — Tips to move off the app and meet in person or via video call sooner.
• 15:04 — Navigating boundaries around sex and relationship norms.
• 17:02 — The importance of not compromising on dealbreakers.
• 19:38 — Warning signs of unhealthy usage and when to take a break.

---

Tone & Final Thought

The episode is warm, validating, and practical—balancing empathy with tough love. Both Marielle and Marissa normalize frustrations and anxieties, while emphasizing agency and self-respect throughout the dating process.

Final words from Marielle:
“You absolutely can find romantic connection off the apps. But when I stopped using them, that wasn’t even the point. The point was simply I didn’t want to do it anymore. And once I made that decision, I felt so relieved. This option is available to you too.” (24:23)

---

This summary is intended to help you quickly grasp the episode’s main messages and review expert guidance on using dating apps mindfully. For anyone navigating the world of modern romance, it’s a reassuring, actionable listen.

Transcript

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

This message comes from Schwab. With the new Schwab Teen Investor account, teens can gain hands on investing experience and build positive money habits. It's an account co owned by you and your teen so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money.

[Marielle Segarra]

Learn [e-mail] you're listening to Life Kit from NPR. Hey, it's Marielle. I want you to raise your hand if you've been personally victimized by dating apps. Yeah, that's a mean girls reference. I am a millennial. Sue me. But seriously, why is it that so many people hate dating apps, absolutely hate them, but still feel like they have to be on them.

[Marissa Cohen]

I recently just did a talk in New York and a lot of people it was on relationship science and the factors of interpersonal attraction.

[Marielle Segarra]

This is relationship scientist and marriage and family therapist Marissa Cohen.

[Marissa Cohen]

I had a line of people that came up to me at the end of the talk and they were saying, feel like I have to be on the apps. Feels like everyone is meeting that way. Or there's the expectation that I could only find my partner using this approach.

[Marielle Segarra]

Now we've done a whole episode on how to date outside of the apps, and I'm a big proponent of that. But a lot of people still want to try them. And as Marissa puts it, they can be an access point, a way to meet people that you wouldn't otherwise.

[Marissa Cohen]

There's going to be some that you click with, some that you don't, and some that you certainly just like do not want to have ever crossed paths with. But it seems like the key is

[Marielle Segarra]

keeping the apps in perspective. They are not the only way you can meet people. They are not a second job you're supposed to take on. You can get addicted to them and you may be using them for the wrong reasons. You think and say you're looking for a romantic connection, but actually you're looking for validation or you got sucked into the game. On this episode of Life Kit, I talked to Marissa about how to have a healthier relationship with dating apps if you are going to use them. We'll talk about how to set boundaries for yourself around the apps, how to be clear about what you want and waste as little time as possible in the dating app messaging vortex. And we'll also go through the signs that your app use is becoming unhealthy. That's coming up after the break.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

This message comes from Schwab. With the new Schwab Teen Investor account, teens can gain hands on investing experience and build positive money habits. It's an account co owned by you and your teen so you can monitor and engage with the account while your teen learns how to invest and manage money. Learn [e-mail] this message comes from Dell Dell PCs with Intel inside are built for the moments that matter. Like a big project that can't be interrupted by an update with long lasting battery life, you can stay focused on what matters built for you. Dell.comdellpcs this message comes from Simon and Schuster, publisher of Get a Financial Life Feeling Stuck with Money the classic money guide Get a Financial Personal Finance in youn 20s and 30s by Beth Kobleiner has been updated for today's economic reality. Tackle debt, save smarter, invest wisely and navigate rising costs with confidence with this no nonsense roadmap to financial stability. Start planning for your future. Now read Get a Financial Life by

[Marissa Cohen]

Beth Kobleiner Today when I was using

[Marielle Segarra]

the apps, I noticed that I felt drawn in by them in a similar way that I feel drawn in by my phone in general, that they can have an an addictive quality. And I would often find myself swiping mindlessly and also just feeling bad after every time I opened the app.

[Marissa Cohen]

A hundred percent. I mean, dating apps, just like with any other app, it's gamified. You know, you'll get notifications maybe depending upon what app you're using. Someone sent you a, like someone sent you a rose and it's a little dopamine hit every time you get that notification. So it keeps you in it and there's intermittent reinforcement, which is basically the same principles that slot machines operate under. So we're always waiting for that hit that like that match. And it certainly can keep us in this cycle of always being on your phone, always staying connected. And then beyond that, a lot of people approach dating apps almost with this fear of what if I'm not active and the person that I click with or the person that I'm supposed to meet and I'm putting that in air quotes, is on the app and active at that time and I'm not there to talk to them. So it almost keeps people in this place of needing to constantly monitor who's new on the app, who's sending messages, and it can really just take a lot of time and energy.

[Marielle Segarra]

I know a lot of people will fill up their social calendar completely with dates and then this ends up feeling like a second job.

[Marissa Cohen]

Exactly. I actually had a friend who during grad school, you know, her mantra was it's a numbers Game. It's a numbers game, and she used to set it up that she wanted to meet every single potential partner in her dating pool. And she would go for a lunch date and dinner date 6 out of 7 days of the week and was just like, let me cycle through as many of my matches as quickly as possible. And she really just wound up getting burnt out pretty quickly.

[Marielle Segarra]

What are some ways people can set boundaries around the apps?

[Marissa Cohen]

So I think that, you know, it depends upon the person and what feels comfortable for them. You know, some people, it might look like engaging with the apps just for a limited amount of time per per day or only certain days of the week, or maybe just opening up their profiles one time per week or a couple times per month. Again, you really have to get a sense of, am I experiencing burnout? Am I starting to approach these dates in a frustrated way that won't lead to a good outcome? And then based upon that, that's how you set your boundary. For some people, it just helps them to take a break entirely for a specified period of time, which is until they feel ready to approach dating again. That's perfectly fine.

[Marielle Segarra]

As I wonder if it can help to say, now, this might be a little hard to track, but if you said to yourself, like, all right, if I'm gonna use the dating apps, I'm only allowed to swipe on, I don't know, 20 people today, that can be

[Marissa Cohen]

helpful because a lot of people just kind of like. It's like, it almost becomes a fun game and people are kind of quickly going through the profiles, often just looking at the photo and maybe just like a tagline, and they aren't reading the actual bios. So if you swipe too quickly, you're potentially missing out on some incredible people that had you otherwise met them, let's say, like through friends or started a conversation with them in the real world, you might have actually been interested in them because there's. There's that whole idea of there's an infinite number of people in my dating pool, so I can just like, quickly go through hundreds of profiles. Especially, especially if you're in, like, a large urban area like New York City or Boston or Philadelphia. It's like there's so many people on the app that you can just. It can become a game takeaway.

[Marielle Segarra]

One, set boundaries with yourself around your app use. Dating apps are gamified to keep you coming back. Make sure you're using them, not letting them use you. Consider time blocking. For instance, you could say, I'm only going to open these apps at a designated time for half an hour and then block them the rest of the time. Or you could try limiting your number of swipes, like, I'm only going to swipe on 15 people tonight, or whatever number you choose. After that, I'm closing the app. The idea here is to embrace a slower pace to dating and to not let the fear of missing out drive your behavior. It seems like it's a good idea, if you're using dating apps, to also be really honest with yourself about what you're using them for.

[Marissa Cohen]

Absolutely. I think that, you know, some people are just scrolling through them, just kind of surveying, like, who is potentially out there for me, but, like, what's. What's the end goal here? Are you looking for a relationship? And what type of relationship are you looking for? And it's also helpful to make sure that your profile matches your true intentions. And that's the first thing I tell people is, you know, a lot of people try to optimize their profile so they're going to get presented to as many people as possible, and they're trying to, like, figure out, well, what is it in my profile that will stand out to others? What might they want? But if that doesn't accurately represent who you are as a person, that match isn't gonna work out for you in the long run anyway.

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah, you're just making the whole experience more chaotic for yourself and for them.

[Marissa Cohen]

Exactly. And that's why people get frustrated, because they see these profiles, they maybe pick up on one aspect of them, start to engage in conversation, and everything seems great, great, great. But then all of a sudden, when you meet in person that this individual doesn't share the same interests or, you know, maybe hyped up an aspect of their life that you were really attracted to, and then that's not really a big part of their life. So represent yourself as you are, because that's how you're going to attract the kind of people who appreciate you.

[Marielle Segarra]

Takeaway 2. Be clear with yourself about why you're using the apps. Ask yourself, in an ideal scenario, what are you hoping to find on the apps? Love, sex, friendship, validation, excitement. And what are you actually finding? And then be clear with other people in your profile and in your conversations. What are some examples of ways to be more direct in your profile?

[Marissa Cohen]

Look, a profile is difficult because it's static and human beings are dynamic, of course. So it's really hard to showcase your true personality in a way that's going to really, like, allow yourself to shine through on a Little bio. But I tell people to make sure that like most people spend time on photos, the most time on photos and that's what they're making a lot of their decisions on, unfortunately. But showcase in your photos different aspects of your life that are important to you. If you are someone who doesn't like to travel but you perceive that you know people to hear that you're a world traveler, so you put as your main photo that one time that you went on vacation, that's not a great representation of you. So showcase. If you're an animal lover, it should be a picture with like your dog or cat or whatever pet you have. If you know you like to volunteer, maybe a photo volunteering, like display the aspects of your life that are important. And then in your bio just also make sure that it matches and you reflect that.

[Marielle Segarra]

One thing I always hated was messaging with strangers and making small talk for who knows how long. So I started writing in my profile. I don't like to be on my phone a lot, so if we match, let's set up a quick video call to feel out the vibe and see if we want to meet in person.

[Marissa Cohen]

I love that I tell people that they should get to the first date as quickly as they can that they feel comfortable with. That's kind of like that first almost screener of are we able to hold a conversation rather than just become pen pals? But I think that, you know, going on these like long protracted conversations through the app or even texting, that's not really helping you learn who the person is. You really have to assess that compatibility face to face.

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah, it's so awkward when you meet somebody who you've been texting with and then you're like, you don't really look like your picture or you just don't, your vibe is weird or I don't like the way you smell.

[Marissa Cohen]

Right, right. Well, I mean, you know, you kind of like develop this back and forth rapport with a person and people sometimes have texting behaviors that match their personality, sometimes they don't. But you really need to see is this someone that I enjoy engaging with and, and can see myself continuing to date them. And you're not going to really be able to suss that out through texting alone.

[Marielle Segarra]

Takeaway 3. Save yourself time and energy. By cutting down on the messaging and getting to a date as quickly as possible, you can signal that you want to do this in your profile. Also, consider setting up a quick 10 minute video call with prospective dates. If they drag their feet or they keep rescheduling, move on. This method can save you a lot of trouble. By the way. None of what I'm saying here is a magic hack that's going to finally break the apps open for you and lead you to love. But these tips will help you protect your sanity while you use the apps as a tool and decide if you want to keep using them. We'll have more Life Kit after the break.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast Choiceology. Hosted by Katie Milkman, an award winning behavioral scientist and author of the best selling book how to Change. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Hear true stories from Nobel laureates, historians, authors, athletes, and more about why people do the things they do. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] podcast or wherever you listen.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

This message comes From Dell Dell PCs with Intel inside are built for the moments that matter. Like a big project that can't be interrupted by an update with long lasting battery life, you can stay focused on what matters built for you. Dell.com Dell PCs I think the maybe

[Marielle Segarra]

elephant in the room with dating apps for me was always sex. It felt like you go on a date with someone who's a stranger and there's this neon sign blaring over your head like, are you going to have sex with them? And when I felt like that made it a lot harder to be on the apps because it was almost like, oh, people have these expectations.

[Marissa Cohen]

There are certainly people who are on the apps looking to hook up, looking to have sex. There are apps that are just geared towards that which great. But be clear about what it is that you're looking for now. As far as, you know, a person who may be, you know, looking for a relationship and now feels like there's a pressure of sex. Of course it's so important to move at a pace that feels comfortable for you. I've had a lot of clients who have said, you know, oh, the three date rule, the three date rule. And this is for people they've just met organically out there in real life or through friends. And that's kind of like that, you know, by the third date, if you want to assess if it's a match, there's got to be some sort of physical intimacy at that point. And that doesn't work for everyone. And you need to do like, you need to move at a pace that is comfortable and safe for you.

[Marielle Segarra]

Yeah. And I think like, try to have confidence in your own boundaries, which is a challenge.

[Marissa Cohen]

It's a challenge, but it's first taking a moment to reflect and think about what feels safe, what feels healthy for me, and then based upon that, what are the important boundaries that I need to set. And then it's setting and maintaining those boundaries and that's going to lean towards finding a healthy connection with another person.

[Marielle Segarra]

The other thing I was thinking about in terms of boundaries or knowing what you're using the apps for, if you know that you don't want to be polyamorous. For instance, like where you would meet someone on the apps and then they'd be like, well, I, you know, I also have like another partner. And then they have another partner. If you know that that's not for you. I feel like it's really important to not compromise on that because sometimes you'd be like, oh, but it's been a while. I haven't been on any good dates in a while. And here's this person, they're so cute, like, maybe I'll just go out with them. But if it's really not for you, then you're just hurting yourself.

[Marissa Cohen]

Your needs are important. Your needs are important. Your wants are important. If you're looking for a monogamous relationship, you are looking for a monogamous relationship and stop like that. And that is fine. If you are looking for a polyamorous relationship, that is what you are looking for. Even if you meet a really great person who doesn't have the same relationship related goals or lifestyle or orientation or whatever it is, they're not going to be a match. They may be a great friend, but they're not going to be a match for you. And as frustrating as that might be, that's okay. And you need to wait for the person that you can enter into a healthy, loving, caring relationship with.

[Marielle Segarra]

I think about this idea that comes from the negotiation world. The batna, the best alternative to a negotiated agreement. And a lot of the time if you're negotiating over salary, unless you have another offer, your employer may assume like, you're not going to walk away from this. And they may be right. But technically in romance you don't need a partner. And if you, if you understand that or you really feel that, then you have a really good batna. Right. Like your, your best alternative to dating this person who's not a good fit for you is being solo. And that's cool. Like, that's great. Yes.

[Marissa Cohen]

I love the way that you said that it is much better to be happily single than to be in a relationship that isn't meeting your needs because it won't do anything for your overall well being or your life satisfact. And as tempting as it could be, especially you know, with dating apps where there's this perception and maybe reality that there are so many people out there. If you're constantly dipping into the pool to see, like, what are my alternatives? You're one foot out of the relationship and you're not necessarily giving your attention and focus to the relationship that you're in.

[Marielle Segarra]

Takeaway 4 Don't compromise on the things that are most important to you, and remember that not being in a relationship or being romantically involved with anyone is a perfectly good option. Big Picture We've talked a lot about mindset here and the kind of headspace you should be in when you're using the apps. What are some warning signs that your relationship with dating apps is becoming unhealthy?

[Marissa Cohen]

Like with any behavioral addiction, I'm talking specifically about app usage right now. When there's a loss of awareness of time where you go on the app. You're you're thinking, I'm just going to swipe through a couple of profiles and then all of a sudden you've missed dinner or it went from being light outside to dark outside and you're like, where did all this time go? Maybe your usage is not the most helpful. I think that if you start basically like convincing yourself of, you know, the well, I should be doing this, like, once the should statements like I should be going on dates, I should be active on the app. There are no such thing as shoulds in this case. Like, you need to do what's right for you. So if you're now comparing yourself to what you believe, like ideal dating app behavior or ideal dating behavior is, or what your friends are doing, it's time to reexamine your usage. And look, dating anxiety is a real thing. So people may get very excited about the match and then start to feel a little bit nervous when the date approaches. However, if you're finding like, ugh, like I can't, like I don't want to do this or I can't, like I don't like it seems like such a a wasted night to have to when you start dreading the date. If you set the date for like a week in advance and then as a date approaches, you're just like, I don't want to do this. Even if the person is great, you're not going to recognize it as such, they might pleasantly surprise you. That might change your mood but you're not giving them the best version of you so it's going to be a waste of both of your time. So that might be time to re examine as well. That's also times when people are more likely to settle and they're just like, eh, the person's good enough. Like it's just, it's an item that I have to take off of my to do list and that may cause a person to forego some of the things that they were really looking for in a partner because it's truly important to them and that relationship is not going to be set up for success.

[Marielle Segarra]

Takeaway 5 Pay attention to how you use the apps. If you notice that you're getting sucked in like you're just swiping, swiping, swiping and then all of a sudden you miss dinner or an important meeting, that's a sign to pull back. If you're only on the apps because you think I should be doing this, that's a sign. If you find yourself dreading all the dates you set up, that's a sign. Yeah. Sometimes people are like, I'm tired of the apps so you'll do.

[Marissa Cohen]

Right.

[Marielle Segarra]

But you can say I'm tired of the apps. I'm gonna stop using them full stop.

[Marissa Cohen]

Right? And it's not even just the apps. It could be dating. It can be I'm tired of dating right now. I'm going to redevote my attention and energy to my friendship to these activities that I really enjoy doing that make me feel fulfilled. You don't need to be on the hunt for a partner if that's not feeling like something that's true for you in that moment.

[Marielle Segarra]

Marissa, thank you so much. This is a great conversation.

[Marissa Cohen]

Aw, thank you. I really appreciate it.

[Marielle Segarra]

Alright seekers of romance, it's time for a recap. Takeaway 1. Set boundaries with yourself around your app use. Dating apps are gamified to keep you coming back, so make sure you're using them, not letting them use you. Takeaway 2 Be clear with yourself about why you're using the apps. Are you seeking love, sex, friendship, validation, excitement? And what are you actually finding? Then be clear with other people in your profile and in your conversations. Takeaway 3 Save yourself time and energy by cutting down on the messaging and getting to a date as quickly as possible. You can say that you want to do this in your profile. Also consider setting up a quick 10 minute video call with prospective dates. That'll save you a lot of time too. Takeaway 4 Don't compromise on the things that are most important to you. And remember that not being in a relationship or being romantically involved is a of part perfectly good option and takeaway. 5. Pay attention to the way you use dating apps and if they're negatively affecting your mental health, and be willing to step away. The last thing I want to say here is when I was on the apps, I started to resent the idea that something as personal as romantic love had to be mediated through this device, my smartphone. I said, you know what? I've had enough. I'm not finding what I'm seeking here, so let me stop seeking it for a while and just live. It was a moment of surrender and I have learned that you absolutely can find romantic connection off the apps. But when I stopped using them, that wasn't even the point. The point was simply I didn't want to do it anymore. And once I made that decision, I felt so relieved. This option is available to you too. All right, that's our show. By the way, have you subscribed to the Life Kit newsletter yet? Every Friday you'll get even more expert advice on health, money and more, all curated by the Life Kit team. Think of it as a weekly check in from your friends at Life kit. [e-mail] LifeKitnewsletter this episode of Life Kit was produced by Mika Ellison and Margaret Serino. Our digital editor is Malika Greeb, our visuals editor is CJ Ricolon. Meghan Cain is our senior supervising editor, and Beth Donovan is our executive producer. Our production team also includes Andy Tagle, Claire Marie Schneider, and Sylvie Douglas. Engineering support comes from Jimmy Keeley. I'm Mariel Segarra. Thanks for listening.

[Marissa Cohen]

Foreign.

[Narrator/Announcer]

This message comes from Charles Schwab with their original podcast, Choiceology. Choiceology is a show about the psychology and economics behind people's decisions. Download the latest episode and [e-mail] podcast this message comes from Simon and Schuster, publisher of Get a Financial Life Personal Finance in your 20s and 30s by Beth Kobliner. Updated for today's financial reality Read Get a Financial Life by Beth Kobleiner.

[Sponsor/Advertiser]

This message comes from Northwestern Mutual. One of the biggest life hacks people miss is putting off working with a financial professional. Northwestern Mutual will match you with a financial professional to build a plan based on what's important to you, finding new opportunities to help grow your wealth and protect what you've worked so hard for. Find a better way to [e-mail] the Northwestern Mutual Life Insurance Company, Milwaukee, Wisconsin and Northwestern Mutual Wealth Management Company.