This Changes How You See Avoidantly Attached People ft. Dr. Amir Levine

Summary

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Podcast Summary: Lovers by Shan

Episode: This Changes How You See Avoidantly Attached People ft. Dr. Amir Levine
Date: May 6, 2026
Host: Shan Boodram
Guest: Dr. Amir Levine (Author of "Attached", leading expert on attachment theory)

Episode Overview

This episode of Lovers by Shan explores the misunderstood world of avoidantly attached people, featuring Dr. Amir Levine—psychiatrist, neuroscientist, and bestselling author. Shan and Dr. Levine challenge popular misconceptions about attachment styles, emphasizing that attachment theory isn’t destiny and avoidant attachment (particularly in men) is too often misdiagnosed, villainized, or misunderstood. The conversation unpacks how attachment develops, why it changes, and how avoidant tendencies can be honored and worked with rather than pathologized. Both the science and personal growth aspects are blended with practical strategies to rewire one's relationship dynamics.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What Attachment Style Is (and Isn't)

• Attachment is about safety: It's fundamentally about how we feel safe in the world and with others. (Dr. Levine, 07:08)
• Not just about childhood: Contrary to popular belief, only about 10% of adult attachment style is explained by childhood. The rest develops later, and styles can change.

  "There's research that shows that the attachment style that we have as children maybe contributes less than 10% of the attachment style that we have in adulthood... that means we can change." — Dr. Levine, [06:08]

2. The Popularization—and Misuse—of Attachment Theory

• Many assume avoidant = narcissist, or that it’s a “disorder.” This is not true; attachment styles are not mental illnesses, but represent normal variations.

  “I hate when they equate avoidance with narcissism or personality disorder. These attachment styles... are a variation on the norm. There is an evolutionary benefit for having both anxious, avoidant, and secure.” — Dr. Levine, [16:27]

• Overuse of the term: Especially among women familiar with attachment, many men get quickly labeled avoidant if they're slow to text or respond.

  “One of the big issues right now in the dating sphere is that women have so much information about attachment and men seem to have no information... makes it very easy for women to just diagnose everybody as avoidant...” — Co-host, [15:02]

3. Avoidantly Attached People: Understanding, Not Shaming

• Avoidants do want intimacy, but touchiness with closeness or "closeness overdose" often spurs them to retreat or push others away. (Dr. Levine, [12:22])
• Many avoidant people amplify self-reliance as a coping strategy, often unconsciously.
• Avoidance is different from a lack of interest—sometimes it’s biological wiring, and sometimes people just don't want what others want.

  “There's a sector of avoidant people who, as Dr. Amir mentioned, are those whom... want intimacy and they want closeness. But the way in which intimacy is doled out or is given to them must be measured... Then there's also the sector of people who... are willing to openly admit, no, no, I'm avoidant because I'm actually avoiding this. I don't want it.” — Shan, [46:32]

4. Change and Growth in Attachment

• Attachment is a belief system—a “working model” that can be revised when the brain is presented with new information.

  “You can adopt this belief system. Even if you have believed one way for years and years and years, it is possible for anybody to adopt a new belief system.” — Co-host, [10:15]

• Example: With a secure partner, even someone with a rocky relationship history can learn new, more secure behaviors and comfort with closeness. ([10:44]–[12:07])

5. Practical Frameworks and Interventions

CARP Principle:

• Consistent, Available, Responsive, Predictable (CARP): The foundations of secure relating, for yourself and in others ([20:53], [21:12]).
• “Wall Tennis with Love”: If someone can’t reciprocate CARP energies, don’t cut them off, just deprioritize them—respond, but don’t expend energy.

  “You don't cut off these other people, you just deprioritize them... it's wall tennis with love.” — Dr. Levine, [22:34]

• S.I.M.E.s (Seemingly Insignificant Minor Interactions): Small, consistent, positive exchanges (like going on a hike rather than intense one-on-one dates) are crucial for avoidants to build comfort with closeness. ([13:31])

6. Avoidant ≠ Unavailable ≠ Disinterested

• Not everyone labeled “avoidant” is actually avoidant—sometimes they’re just not that interested or don’t prioritize the relationship ([31:12], [46:32]).
• Pathologizing disconnects people; honest communication about expectations can reduce mislabeling and confusion.

7. Adapting to Tech and the Modern World

• Technology can both obscure and help with attachment; people set “attachment baselines” for each relationship—respond accordingly ([36:33]).

  "If you understand that there's a certain baseline to respect that baseline... when that baseline is altered, that's when the alarm is ticked off." — Dr. Levine, [36:33]

• Social media & AI are impacting how relationships are experienced and maintained. Dr. Levine is developing an “AI Secure Coach” to help people practice secure attachment in real time ([40:22]).

8. Attachment Can Vary by Relationship

• Dr. Levine emphasizes “attachment topography”—your style may shift with different people (family, partners, friends), and we can intentionally choose to invest in more secure relationships ([20:53]).

9. Key Takeaways for Listeners

• Attachment isn’t set in stone. You are not doomed by your childhood or by society’s labels.
• Avoidants need compassion and understanding—not shame. Their patterns are valid and, with communication and patience, can be worked with.
• To change attachment style, seek new experiences and information, set and communicate clear expectations, and prioritize consistent, available, and responsive relationships.
• Honest articulation of needs and boundaries early on (“I need consistent communication, otherwise I’ll assume you’re not interested”) prevents confusion and resentment.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Misconceptions:
  “I hate that even the research is biased against avoidance. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but here I said it.” — Dr. Levine, [01:23]

• On change:
  “We can work with ourselves and we can become more secure.” — Dr. Levine, [06:08]

• On Closeness Overdose:
  “It's like a closeness overdose... Avoidants have a harder time with closeness. Once it gets too close, they kind of like squirm.” — Dr. Levine, [12:22]

• On “Evolutionary Benefit”:
  “There's an advantage to have a segment of the population... that are anxious, they see things that other people can't see. And there's also an advantage [that] a portion of the population be avoidant because they can think on their feet.” — Dr. Levine, [16:27]

• On Detachment & Tech:
  “They have come to replace connections... technology. ...there’s something... in terms of an algorithmic attachment. The ways in which people have learned that relationships should mirror what they experience with their technology. And if it doesn't, then they can discard it.” — Co-host, [35:27]

• On Broadening Our Lens:
  “We're all avoidant in some capacity somewhere. And if we're able to identify that and then again not pathologize or judge somebody... acknowledging that others don't care as much as us does not make them any less... It makes them more.” — Shan, [46:32]

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Major Segments with Timestamps

• Attachment styles are not fixed; childhood is only 10%: [01:23], [06:00], [06:08]
• Defining and humanizing avoidant attachment: [12:22], [13:31], [14:34], [16:27]
• CARP & practical strategies: [20:53], [22:15], [22:34]
• Attachment can vary by relationship/person: [20:53]–[22:15]
• Misdiagnosis & gender knowledge gaps: [15:25], [16:22], [31:12]
• Discussing “closeness overdose”: [12:22]–[13:31]
• Wall Tennis, deprioritizing non-reciprocal relationships: [22:34]
• Tech’s role in shaping attachment expectations: [35:27], [36:33], [40:22]
• AI tools to build security: [40:22]
• Attachment and different “goals” for relationships: [46:32]
• Wrapping up and broader philosophical takeaways: [43:00]–[46:00+]

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Final Thoughts

Shan and Dr. Levine offer a nuanced, empathetic, and science-backed take on avoidant attachment, urging us to look past labels, give consideration to context and individual needs, and emphasize ongoing growth rather than static identities. Avoidant attachment is not a sentence nor an illness, but a variation that can be understood, supported, and in some cases, celebrated for its unique strengths in human relationships.

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For more, check out Dr. Amir Levine’s latest book “Secure,” his Masterclass course “The Science of Connection,” or take his attachment quiz at amirlevinemd.com.

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Transcript

[Shan]

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[Dr. Amir Levine]

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[Dr. Amir Levine]

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[Shan]

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[Dr. Amir Levine]

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[Dr. Amir Levine]

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[Shan]

Great.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

That's why you wreck the word of the moment right now. For Attachment is avoidant.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh no, you're totally right. Avoidants are different. They have this belief that I just haven't met the right person yet. They fall into the same trap again and again, not understanding. All these people were right. It's just like a lot of people

[Co-host/Interviewer]

hear avoidant and they hear narcissist. Right. Like it's a personality disorder, right?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yes. I hate that even the research is biased against avoidance. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but here I said it's attachment is basically how we feel safe in the world. There's a lot of myths that have been perpetuated over time, so one of them is actually that our attachment styles are determined by our childhood attachment style. Yes, and that is simply not true. There's research that shows that the attachment style that we have as children maybe contributes less than 10% of the attachment style that we have in adulthood.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I'm curious if you've noticed that there's a shift in people's attachment styles based on the ways that we are conditioned through our phones.

[Shan]

Hi there, lovers. Welcome to the podcast called the Same Damn Thing I Just Said. My name is Shan. I'm your host. My favorite quote the key to happiness is managing expectations. So here's what to expect as you generously give your time to watching or listening to this episode with Dr. Amir Levine, who is the leading voice on attachment theory. Here's one of my favorite parts from the conversation.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

A lot of people misattribute people as being avoidant, where the truth is that they may actually just not be interested.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Or they may not be prioritizing that relationship.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Exactly. That is true. Getting more information oftentimes goes against a lot of, like these basic instincts that people have in dating because, oh, I don't want to rock the Especially for anxious.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Is it ever advantageous then to consciously strategize?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

That's the beauty of the carp intervention.

[Shan]

Throughout this riveting conversation, we'll be pausing to show some love to some sponsors and we'll be previewing what's to come for next week's episode. This is important because we want you to come back if you enjoyed the visual effort and care that we put into making this show stunning and interesting. A way you can show your love, aside from your time, which is also a lot, is by going to YouTube, hitting subscribe and turning on notifications so you at least know what our topics are for future episodes. After that, we will be so happy. If you want to comment, if you want to share, that's all bonus. But again, like I said, subscribe, subscribing and notifications, those are the two acts that really help the show grow. Now, for my listeners out there, we have a special treat for you at the end of each episode where we have an audio only segment and we do this to say a little extra nudge. Maybe you didn't get the visuals, but we definitely want to give you something to show appreciation for your time in hopes that will inspire you to subscribe to the show wherever you listen to your podcasts and rate and review which that act drastically helps our ability to book exciting guests like Dr. Amir Levine, who happens to have his very own class on masterclass, which is launching pretty much as we speak. His is called the Science of Connection and it's how to Rewire Relationships to Last with Attachment Theory. If you liked this episode, trust me, as someone who took the class, you are absolutely going to love it. So let's give you a chance to like it. Introducing Dr. Amir Levine. Let's do this.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Okay, a lot of people talk about attachment, but I want you to brag for a little bit because you are probably the most qualified, smartest, accomplished person to talk about attachment. True or false?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Wow, I'm blushing. You got me right from right at the start. I mean, I can tell you one thing, it really has become the center of my life. My main both personally and also professionally. I think about it a lot. It matters to me. So I really took it even a step further to try to create actual tools that people can use to help them navigate the relationship landscape.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I love that you answered the question very qualitatively in terms of your experience and I'm like, quantity. Three million books sold a Class on masterclass launching shortly. Another book being released shortly. Your Other Attached was translated into how many languages?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Like 42 languages.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Wow. What an accomplishment.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Thank you. You know, we had. I wrote it with my best friend from high school. I'm still blown away by it, I have to say.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I feel like at the time that Attached came out, it was groundbreaking, which makes sense because even for you, it wasn't in the zeitgeist when you first stumbled upon attachment theory. This answered so many questions that you felt a lot of confusion around, ambiguity around. You're like, this is actually what I've been looking for. And so since Attached has come out, there's been a lot more conversations about it. It's been normalized a lot more. What are we now getting wrong about attachment in its popularization?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So one of them is actually that our attachment styles are determined by our childhood or by our childhood attachment style.

[Shan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And that is simply not true because there's research that shows that the attachment style that we'll have as children actually has very. Maybe it contributes less than 10% of an explanation of why the attachment style that we have in adulthood. And I personally find that it's really good news because that means that we can change. And a lot of the things that are related to attachment styles actually happen much later in life, and we can change our attachment styles even in adulthood. So for me, that's very, very good news because we can work with ourselves and we can become more secure.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It's a bad news for everybody who's trying to go back to understand what to do going forward, because a lot of talk therapy today, or people's idea of what talk therapy is, is understanding people's childhood origins. So even when we're dating somebody and we feel that they're being avoidant, for example, we want to know about their relationship with their caregiver. So that's only going to give us 10% of an inclination as to whether or not.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah, exactly. And it's not the reason doesn't mean that it necessarily is going to change things. So, okay, now you understand why people are the way they are. Let's say, even though it's not really true, that doesn't really give you an answer in the here and now. And really what I was trying to do to focus on in the class and also in the new book is, okay, let's put the past behind us and let's focus on in the here and now. What can we do to make our relationships better? Attachment is basically how we feel safe in the world. Because people think, oh, if I have a lot of money in the bank, if I have this amazing condo, that's gonna make me feel safe. But that's not what makes us feel safe. Because these things didn't exist when our emotional brain formed. All that really existed is our clan or the people around us. And they helped us feel safe. And our brain constantly scans for that. So the way it works out is it all has to do with how comfortable we feel with intimacy and closeness, but also how sensitive of a radar do we have for potential danger in the relationship? So if we love intimacy and closeness, but we're also very sensitive for potential problems in the relationship, then we have an anxious attachment style. And if we love intimacy and closeness, but we're not that sensitive to things that happen in a relationship, like, we don't really see danger so easily, and things really go smoothly and easily. That's more of a secure attachment style. Now, avoidant, they also want to be in a relationship, but something funny happens when they get close. They start to feel really uncomfortable and they start pushing you away, and they really amplify in their mind the importance of being self reliant and self sufficient. And the very last attachment style is the fearful avoidant, which is really a much smaller percentage of the population, which really integrates both aspects of anxiety and avoidance.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

You know, there's that saying that we are an accumulation of the five people we spend the most amount of time with. Does that form attachment?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

A lot of our different experiences form attachments, and we still don't even know exactly what forms attachment. And that's what I like about science. For example, some researchers think that attachment styles can really shift in adolescence because it's such an important period of our lives where our brain really change a lot and develop and evolve. And at the same time, we shift our attention. We don't really care so much about our parents anymore, and all of a sudden our peers become like the most important thing in our lives. And so depending on what we encounter during those times, also shapes our attachment style. So the way that I would look at attachment style, it's really like, that's even John Bowlby, who's like the father of attachment in general in children. And then he really also thought it goes all the way to adulthood. He even said that it's more of a working model. It's a belief system that we develop and that our brains kind of like ignores information that contradicts that belief system and really focuses on things that we do believe. But if we present the brain with new information that it's trying to ignore, it's like, well, look at this. You see, maybe your world belief is not the way that you really think it is, then it can change.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Oh, I'm going to hold on to that belief system because that is such an interesting way of looking at it. When we think of it more like a temperament that you're born with or something that has been conditioned in you for years and years and years. But instead it's just. That's what makes, I mean, even your book secure. Obviously, as poignant as it is, or it's going to be, is the fact that you're saying to people, you can adopt this belief system. Even if you have believed one way for years and years and years, it is possible for anybody to adopt a new belief system.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So I'll give you an example. I had this patient who she's had really two bad marriages. She met a new person who was very secure, but she didn't really understand that landscape of security. So in her mind, she really wanted to get married again. And he wasn't sure, like he had a child and he wasn't sure, like his child was ready from a different marriage that he was ready for it. But he could see that he really matters to her. And in her past relationships, proposals were rescinded. There was always such a big fight about are they going to get married or not going to get married. But here, once he saw that he was important to her, he's like, okay, we're getting married. And immediately he called everyone, all of his friends, all of his family, we're getting married, we're getting married. And she came to the Ascension and she said, something is off. Something doesn't feel right to me. What is going on? It just felt unnatural and just really, really did feel good to her. And I'm like, okay, this is what being like being with someone secure looks like. It's okay to feel uncomfortable. It's okay that it's not familiar. Just hang around and stick around and you will grow on you and you'll become more secure through those interactions. So here she got a different information. Someone can love you, someone can commit, and they'll go all in and it's not going away. And. And that's a huge way for our brain to change. You get all these new information and then the brain changes.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Oh, wow. In the class on Masterclass, you describe this as. I can't remember the language of it, but was for avoidant attachment individuals in particular, where There's a lot of intimacy at a. In a very short interval, they can tend to experience.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, yeah, it's like. It's like a closeness overdose.

[Shan]

Yes, yes.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I was like, I knew it rhymed. There was a rapidness.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Closeness overdose. Yeah. Avoidance. Have a harder time with closeness. They just don't. Like once, once it gets too close, they kind of like squirm. They don't feel comfortable with it. So the idea is to learn to really teach them how to pace themselves, that it's okay to have that kind of biology that doesn't really want to be constantly in your face. One of the things that they try to do is like, oh, I found someone that I like. I have to be with them full time because they don't know it themselves. They think, oh, it's because of my childhood and there's something that I need to heal. And then if I'll find the right person, they'll bring it out in me and I'll be fine. So they go all in. But then it backfires because it's like, whoa, this is too much. So they start pushing the other person away. So if they learn, okay, I have a biology that doesn't like too much closeness. So let me ease into it. It becomes less overwhelming.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah. So maybe we don't plan a wedding immediately to try to get someone to see that we care about them.

[Shan]

Or do we.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Do we have to push against their affinities in order to show them on the other side will be comfortable.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So I like to say that I go after the little things. It's something that I call the seemingly insignificant minor interactions of everyday life.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Do you call that the cmes?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Simes?

[Shan]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So in a way, for our brain, when you understand neuroscience, you understand that each small interaction, micro interaction like that, is hugely important for our brain. So for someone, avoidance, for example, I'm not even talking about getting married or not getting married. I'm talking about when instead of having a date and sort of having to look into each other's eyes all the time, why not go on a hike together and then do things together that helps them ease into closeness and then they start to feel more comfortable and it feels less overbearing. So people that are anxious can teach the avoidance to do that. And that's the beauty of it. That's why I think in the book I wrote a chapter for the anxious avoidant and fearful avoidant. But I think you should really read each and every chapter, even if that's not your attachment style. Because other people in Your life can benefit from it.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I love that the book is called Secure. The word of the moment right now for attachment is avoidant. And I'm not sure if you've encountered this in the conversations that you've had, but I was actually. We had Mark Manson in the podcast recently, and in his podcast called Solved, he was saying one of the big issues right now in the dating sphere is that women have so much information about attachment and men seem to have no information about attachment, which makes it very easy for women to just diagnose everybody and issue out everybody in attachment style. And men are being over correctively, I guess, assumed to be avoidant if they don't respond to text fast, if they're not available, if they show a lot of attention one week and then not the next. And so do you think that there is. I mean, let me just actually ask a reflection point on that, on the disparity in women's knowledge of attachment style and men's knowledge of attachment style.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I do think there's a knowledge gap, but I do think that it's easy to learn attachment. You just have to learn the right information. So for avoidance, I think on social media there's a lot of shaming of avoidance, and I think that even the research is biased to a certain degree against avoidance. Maybe I shouldn't say that, but I'm saying I hear I said it. In our society, people equate avoidance with masculinity. People have learned, women have learned to equate that emotional disconnect with masculinity, but it's completely false. And so there's a lot of reasons why potentially people may be drawn for avoidance or. Or they feel I need to. With me, it will be different, or I need, like, they're going to notice me more. After writing Attached for The last, like, 15 years, I worked in my private practice with a lot of avoidant people, both men and women, and I've seen their struggles because a lot of people

[Co-host/Interviewer]

hear avoidant and they hear lost cause. Like narcissist. Right? Like it's a personality disorder, right?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yes. I hate that. I hate them when they equate avoidance with narcissism or personality disorder. Because it's really important to remember that these attachment styles, they're not illnesses. They're not like mental disorders. They really are a variation on the norm. And there is an evolutionary benefit for having both anxious, avoidant, and secure. There's one study that I mentioned, insecure. They had a group of people in a room and they had a Little bit of smoke coming out of a computer. And it was the anxious that spotted the danger first and alerted everyone. And it was the avoidant who were the first to be out the door. Like, I'm out of here. It's like, so. And then people followed. So you see that there's an advantage to have, like a segment of the population around, I don't know, 20% that are anxious, they see things that other people can't see. And there's also an advantage to have a portion of the population be avoidant because they can think on their feet. They're like, I don't need to get your approval, your approval, your approval to take action. I'm doing what I need to do. And then you follow. You don't want to follow, I don't care, I'm out of here.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Is there truth to the fact that we all display different attachment styles based on the relationship? Like, I could be secure with you

[Dr. Amir Levine]

and thank you for asking that.

[Shan]

Sorry for the interruption. Thank you so much for staying with us and we would love for you to come back for this episode of Lovers next week. For the first time, I felt the gaze of others. And when I say others, I also mean men. Coming back from that trip, there was this knowing in me where I was like, that's interesting. I haven't had that. And it's not to say that my husband doesn't make me feel beautiful or my husband doesn't tell me that I'm beautiful. It's like, yeah, all those things. But taking a quick pause to show some love to the sponsor of this episode, Aria, which is the number one best selling member membership for intimacy and pleasure. So in essence, if you don't know, it's a membership that you sign up for which you get three incredible things. Number one, you get access to an always on concierge which answers your question, is backed by sexologists. Number two, you get access to this app. And through the app, you get these beautifully curated scenes that are specifically designed based on your conversations with your concierge for the kind of delightful experience that you would want next. And lastly, they deliver a box with all, all the items that you'll need to bring the scene to delicious life delivered discreetly to your door. Doing this month after month has made couples feel more connected, more excited, and above all else, more alive. So to invite more libido into your life, you've got to put some action, some effort too. And Aria, is effort in the right direction, especially as we head into celebrating Mother's Day. Because let me tell you, Mother's Day mothers deserve gifts from everybody. So if you're curious and want to learn more, especially in light of this upcoming Mothers and Mommy's day, go to aria. FYI mothersday 2026 more in store for you there.

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[Co-host/Interviewer]

Is there truth to the fact that we all display different attachment styles based on the relationship? Like I could be secure with you

[Dr. Amir Levine]

and thank you for asking that. Yes, the answer is absolutely yes. I have a new questionnaire in the book about deciphering your attachment style and you can decipher your general attachment style. But also you get a chance to also determine your attachment style with different people in your life and at the end you get what I call an attachment topography. So you can see, oh, with my dad actually we have like this more of an avoidant. With my mom, I'm more secure. With my partner, I'm anxious. Like that can it can shift and change and the general is usually the sum total of all these different attachment styles. Then you can see the landscape of your attachment styles and you can see who are the more secure people in your life and you can actually give them more priority. Carpenter It's C A R P I call it. It's like the five pillars of a secure life. It stands for consistent, available, responsive, and you want others to experience you as reliable and predictable. So you want to be carp and you want also others to be carp with you. So that creates a foundation for really a secure environment. You create a secure bubble for yourself that really causes this amazing enrichment to the brain to start shifting and that's how you actually change and become more secure.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Is it ever advantageous then to consciously strategize and say, look, I really like Amir. I really Think he's awesome, but I'm not getting the receptivity, I'm not getting the carp back from him that I'm actually giving in return. So I think it's more logical for me to treat this relationship more avoidantly than to dismiss it altogether.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

That's exactly what I try to preach to, especially for people who are anxious. It's called wall tennis with love. So for them, when someone is not consistent, available and responsive with them, what they do is basically you're like the wall. So if you ever played tennis against the wall, the wall always dishes it back, but maybe a little bit less, but in the same amount, the same direction. It doesn't really initiate anything. So when you find this person who constantly lets you down, who oftentimes makes you feel bad, who then you find yourself preoccupied with them instead of like, our brain tends to like, no, I need to fix this relationship. I need to put more effort into it. But you can try fixing it once or a few times by doing those harp intervention. But if it's not working, then I really invite you to shift your attention to the secure people in your life. So what you do is you don't cut off these other people, you just deprioritize them. So whenever they reach out to you, it's wall tennis with love. You respond to them, you're nice to them, but the priorities shift and they can't hurt you as much. You don't spend that much energy on those really difficult relationships. And it's a game changer. It's really a game changer. Someone that I know who was dating this guy and he's very, he was very, very bad in texting back. He's not very responsive. I think they slept after the first date and they had an amazing time. And then second date again, like really an amazing physical bond. And then she said as he was leaving the second after the second time, I really like you. But in order for this to work, she needs someone. When she texts someone, she needs someone to text them back pretty quickly. And then that if he's not going to, she's going to call him many times until he does and that he has to pick up and that that's how she is. And if he does, then it's not even going to go there because that's how she is. And he said, you know, I'm really not like that. Like, even with my friends, they all complain that I never text them back, but I'm going to try. And he tried. And 10 years later, now they're together and they're having this really, really good relationship. And he still doesn't text his friends all the time, but he really tries to make sure that he's always responsive to her when you talk to him. He even says, no one's ever explained it to me like that. So they really never gave me a chance to live up to what I could do.

[Shan]

Well, I can imagine it only works out if the person is wanting to

[Co-host/Interviewer]

make it work and willing to go beyond their basic instincts and their gut feelings in order to accomplish that.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I know. So that. But that's the beauty of the CARP intervention. I think people should even put it on their dating profile that it's important to them, because then it's not about, oh, I'm interested in you, so now I want you to be carp. It's more like, that's what I expect from the world. So if you want to be in my world, this is the set of expectations. And if you explain it in a way that's not personal, it's just like, this is how I am and what I really. This is what's important to me. Then people don't even see, oh, wow, she's moving in too fast, or any of that. It's not about that anymore. It's more about and like a code of behavior that's more secure.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I love that too, because one of my favorite quotes is, the key to happiness is managing expectations. And oftentimes in dating, we actually don't know what the other person expects. It's all this one grand mystery. So again, we can be assuming that somebody is avoidant, but instead they're just busy at work and not used to mentally prioritizing connection during times of busy seasons. Maybe they haven't made the connection to how that has severed other relationships in the past or the ways that they don't rely on people for help when they probably should. But if you're not going to really communicate those expectations, that person may not even know that those are things that people want from them.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Exactly. We have to go back to the idea that it's almost like a radar system. It's simple. It's not something that people need hours and hours to be talked to for them to feel safe. It goes back to the strange situation test. Like, the kid is playing with toys all the time, and he doesn't need his mom to be there next to him to keep him interested. Every once in a while, he looks back to see if she's there. And if she's there, then he's golden. It's the same thing in adults. And today it's so easy to do through texts and other ways of keeping in touch where it can keep that whole radar at bay and the alarm doesn't go off and life is so much easier that way. So if you learn how to communicate that early on, like, more power to you.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So let's go through a scenario and let's say these two people meet, they hit it off. Is it fair to say that in the honeymoon phase, let's say the first month, bare minimum, everybody is operating a little bit anxiously, not for lack of a better term, but what I mean

[Dr. Amir Levine]

by that is, oh, no, you're totally right. I agree with you.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

There's this flood of emotion, there's this excitement, there's a demand to see each other. Like you're excited to check in next. Like it feels really good to constantly reinforce, are we both into this?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Right. Exactly. And especially for people who are avoidant, closeness hasn't been established yet. So it doesn't feel suffocating. So it's like for them it's a moment of expansion. And especially for avoidance, they have this belief that I just haven't met the right person yet. And so they go on from one person to another, hoping next time it'll work out, next time it will work out. And then they fall into the same trap again and again, not understanding. All these people were right. It's just like you rushed into closeness, you got that closest overdose, and then without even really having a lot of control over it, those deactivating strategies start to kick in. All of a sudden, oh, you don't like how they eat or you want to like, like the way that they sit? All sorts of things start to bother you that didn't bother you before and you don't understand where they come from and they meet the conclusion that you draw. Oh, I guess I'm not really that into them. And you move on to the next person. But in the initial moment, you're not there yet, you rush in and then it's almost like inevitable what's going to happen. You repeat it again and again and again. But if you know about it, you can change it a little bit because

[Co-host/Interviewer]

what is the conclusion they should come to? It's not that I'm not into this

[Dr. Amir Levine]

person, it's that I. I have closed nurse overdose.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

What actually is happening in the brain and what do people misperceive an attachment rupture to be versus what it actually is?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

If we have that attachment thing Snapped. We basically have a stress response. It's like danger, danger, danger. It's like the alarm goes off in your house and good luck trying to get anything done with the alarm on in the house. It's like not going to happen. So you have to find a way to switch off the alarm. And so that carp thing is basically my. It's my switch how to switch off the alarm.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I've heard the Mary Ainsworth experiment, the strange experiment, so many times. But it was only in your class that I heard you say something about avoidance that I'd never heard before. Avoidant individuals may have the alarm going off internally, but they won't exhibit any social cues that that alarm is going off.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, they won't. And they don't even know that it's going off. They don't know. The strange situation test is when you bring a caregiver and a toddler to a room full of toys. You start playing with them, and then they ask the caregiver to step out. It's in that moment of the reunion where Mary Ainsworth discovered these three attachment styles. And it all had to do with how effective was the bond in regulating the toddler's emotions and secure babies. It's like instantaneous. The moment the mother picks them up, they calm down immediately and start pointing at the toys. Anxious? Not at all. They take a really long time to calm down and it's just not that effective. And avoidant sometimes just stay limp in their mother's hand. They're not crying. They don't see distress, but they're also not that interested in playing. And when you look and you see, you do find that their heart rate is up and their blood pressure is up, but you wouldn't see any signs of it from the outside. But they're still. They're not as good as using the other person in regulating their emotions. And it's really the same thing in adulthood. We don't play with toys anymore, but we have hobbies and we work.

[Shan]

Some of us do.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And we parent. Exactly. I'm glad you mentioned that. We play with other toys, but avoidance are different. They don't really need others so much to regulate their emotions or they don't even think that they need others. So when others come to them when they're in trouble and ask for help, they're like, what are you coming to me for? Like, help yourself. Like I help myself. Then you should help yourself, too. They just don't understand.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I want to walk through a scenario of dating an avoidant person. I Also want to say this in acknowledgement that a lot of people, to the stats you keep bringing up of 25% of the population, a lot of people misattribute people as being avoidant, where the truth is that they may actually just not be interested.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Or they may not be prioritizing that relationship.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

That is true. Getting more information oftentimes goes against a lot of like these basic instincts that people have in dating because they, oh, I don't want to rock. Especially for anxious and anxious are the ones that avoidance are the most challenging for because they're very sensitive to potential distancing. And the avoidance they use, we call it deactivating strategies to form a little bit more distance so they feel more comfortable in their relationship. So then they tend to really clash.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Is it true that they also tend to drawn to each other because they confirm each other's belief system?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So to some degree I think that happens, right. I think I actually now think that people get drawn to each other a lot. Has to do with a lot of basic biology, the way people look and the way people smell. But then when we get past that, I think they do tend to reconfirm your worst potential fears or beliefs.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It makes me reflect on, I think when you. I. I would like to arrogantly say that I feel like I have a good relationship with attachment, but I think I have strategies to utilize different attachment styles based on knowing myself. Because I can tend to be anxious in attachments, however, probably more so in the fearful, avoidant place. I also never want to feel that feeling of unrequited love. And so at the earliest sign that I'm experiencing that, I can tend to get very avoidant, which can lead to this very hot and cold relationship, which has left a lot of people very confused with me in the past and has been a very agonizing experience for me. So I've actually employed. And early on with my husband, actually I employed the wall tennis with love strategy where I was like, I'm never going to be the first one to text. Not because I'm playing games with you per se, but because I know how I work. If I text you twice, my inclination to be avoidant will kick in because now I'm feeling clingy and needy and now you're getting a colder side of me, which maybe you don't know how to interpret. That's because I'm trying to avoid being the anxious, needy one. So I'm like, as long as they reach out to me first, I never have the question of Did I push too hard? Because I know the answer is it didn't come from me.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

I love the description because it's just like, first of all, I think it shows how difficult the whole dating thing can be, but then it also shows what happens when you meet someone who is more secure, how it really shifts everything. You didn't even need to do a carp intervention because, like, he was able to figure it out on his own.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yes.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And so you were able to get what you needed and you were able to ease into something more secure. But what it could also have done is that if you were doing it with someone avoidant, they wouldn't text you as much.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Yeah.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

And then you would be like, why are they texting me? And you'll be waiting?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Or with somebody anxious, they would look at that as my disinterest, even if I was exactly interested.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Exactly.

[Shan]

I love this too.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Is actually because even in hearing you reflect back what I went, what I did, I was like, oh, yeah, the carb strategy would have been way better. Right. Because people hate games in relationships. But games can be fun if everybody knows the rules and they understand the strategy. Right. So if you tell somebody, hey, like, I really value consistency. I really value persistence. I really value somebody who is responsive. And if I don't receive that from you, I'm going to take that as a cue that you're not that interested. And then I'm going to utilize some strategies to allow you to take the lead. At least then we're on the same playing field, you know?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yeah.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

And then I've given you a shot to say, because that person then can say, oh, I noticed she's not initiating as much. Instead of coming up with a story as to why I'm not initiating, they can refer back to the conversation where I said, hey, if I don't actually feel that you're as responsive to me or is interested in. Or initiative not. You're not initiating as much as I am. I'm going to fall back.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Like, it really changes the conversation to something much more biological, less personal, less. I'm. You're to blame. I'm to blame. No, let's deal with this biology. You're this kind of animal. I'm this kind of animal. How do we make things work between us?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So I want to reflect on you something that I've been thinking about, especially in the past year and a half or so, and I'll say from a personal story standpoint is I am in a nuclear family. So I'm married and I have Two kids. And after my second kid, you just start to realize how much you don't have a village. So it created this like extreme fatigue. And it was like that was kind of my first wake up call of realizing how detached I was from people. So I started to try to reach out to people and I had a really challenging time making connections and having people follow through that carp seemed like a lost art. And you realize that it's not that because other people are so overwhelmed with connections in their lives, it's that they have come to replace connections. What I'm talking about is technology. And so there's something that I've been thinking about in terms of an algorithmic attachment. The ways in which people have learned that relationships should mirror what they experience with their technology. And if it doesn't, then they can discard it. I'm curious if you've noticed that there's a shift in people's attachment styles based on the ways that we are conditioned through our phones.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

It does change your belief system in what you should expect from attachment, but I think we are very, very savvy social creatures. So. And we tend to create this attachment baseline. We have an idea of an attachment baseline with many different people that we interact with. Like for example, when you text your husband, you probably have an expectation that he'll reply pretty quickly. And there's another friend that you text that you know, they may take several days, sometimes even a week to reply, and that's okay. So the idea is it doesn't mean that you always have to reply right away. It means more that if you understand that there's a certain baseline to respect that baseline. Because when that baseline is altered, that's when the alarm is ticked off. So to create a respect for that baseline means that you have, if you have a friend that you text once a week, if they text you not to wait two weeks to text them back. Because we monitor all the time. That's part of what our brain does, whether we want to or not. So I think if we learn to use technology in a way that feels right to us, and I think, especially when you have two kids and so much work, manage those expectations in a carp way, then we help people feel good about their interactions with us and then we're golden. And that's what secure people do effortlessly. So they'll say, hey, you know, like in the next two weeks I'm like, I'm traveling and I have all these things that I'm going to do, so I'm not going to be Able to respond so quickly. But you're in my mind. And the other part that I love about technology is how especially, I guess they're very smart about doing it, that they make it easier for us. So if someone calls me and I can't answer, I was like, you get that automatic way back. Like, I'll call you later. So just like, use that. Because it's exactly what our attachment system needs. It's that thread that goes. We have to feel that there's that connection in a way that works for us. And it's an art to learn to do that. And it's okay to fail. And that's why even, like in the book, I close by talking about the secure practice. It's not something that you do once and it's fine. It's really how to learning how to create a secure practice and maintain it over time. And sometimes when we reach back to friends, especially, I think, after people have kids, what else can you do? You kind of have to leave the world behind. You're working around the clock. It's like, really, it's insane raising a human child, it's an impossible task. Again, it has to do with their brain and how much work they take. So when you introduce yourself back into the world, it takes an adjustment, but it's okay to know that it takes an adjustment and eventually you'll find a new baseline. But not to be afraid of the process, because it is a process. And while you're doing it there can be let down. Then it can be painful. But again, the idea is to always shift your attention. There's always those people that are there for you and to like. Instead of trying to solve the problem here in this insecure person here, text this person, and then, like. And then it really shifts and rearranges your social world.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I appreciate that and I appreciate the acknowledgment of the time that it will take to repair and to create that rhythm again. Right. So to create that pathway in someone's brain where they start thinking, oh, yeah, it's been a week we haven't talked again. Whereas maybe for the past, you know, four years, it'd be very normal not to experience that. But I am curious if you have any reflections on the ways that social media in particular is coming to replace relationships. Even now, we're into entering into the age of conversations, of AI completely replacing relationships, because from an attachment standpoint, technology can provide what no human relationship does and maybe should.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

So I love that you asked me about AI because it's such an important topic in building. This whole book is really based on this new method of therapy that I've developed that I call the secure priming therapy. And I'm actually now creating for like a therapy manual. And one of the tools that I've put together is a secure coach AI where you can actually talk to the secure coach in moments that you find insecurity in your life and they help you think about it from perspective of being carp or the simis. So all of this stuff that we've talked about, they help you really, in real time practice it. Because sometimes when the alarm is blurring, it's hard to remember what the secure thing to do is. It's actually really helpful to have either reach out to a secure person and if they're not available to reach out to even an AI, if they're programmed correctly, AI is here to stay. Most of my patients use AI whether I want to or not. So instead of like saying, no, that's a bad thing, it keeps you away from other people. I actually invite them to bring some of those conversations into the therapy. So to integrate that into our lives rather than to make it as something that takes that, that takes us out of our life.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Dr. Amir, thank you so much for the time. You have a class on Masterclass that's coming out. You have a book that's called Secure that will probably be out by the time that this is airing. So everyone should go and pick that book up. Where else do you want people to go?

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, they can also go to amirlevinemd.com and they can take. There's a quiz about your attachment style. You can get your attachment typography. So that can be really helpful.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Awesome.

[Shan]

You've been so helpful today.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Thank you.

[Shan]

Thank you so much.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

I don't know if we were high fiving or we were.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Oh, yeah, let's do a high five.

[Shan]

I love it.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It's like a good exchange of energy.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Yes.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Like, I got a little piece of you I get to keep in the

[Shan]

rest of the day. So thank you.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Thank you.

[Shan]

Big shout out to the big boss, Dr. Amir Levine, for not just being a great guest, a great thought leader, very insightful, just being kind, very kind, very generous with his time. We exchanged emails, he's kept in touch and I wish him nothing but huge success, especially because he is on Masterclass now. So he has a brand new class on masterclass called the Science of Connection. Rewire relationships to last with attachment theory. This class was so incredibly informative. And again, like I said at the Top. If you enjoyed the interview, you're really going to love the class because it goes deeper into the neuroscience. It goes more into anecdotes from his practice, and it just gives you those helpful takeaways that you're going to take with you into your current relationship and all the other ones you're going to have. Heck, even if it's a relationship with the person in line at the grocery store beside you, all in all, attachment theory helps us to understand that, yes, while we all pursue love and belonging to, we have unique motivations and unique end goals in mind for that universal goal. And that's actually my favorite part about this conversation with Dr. Amir was that he took a lot of the rigidity out of attachment theory that I think has traditionally been there from other experts and thought leaders. Mainly this concept that your attachment style forms in your childhood years, and that's just how you are now. If you have avoidant parents, then you become an avoidant. If your parents anxious, then you are anxious. And if you are lucky to have secure parents, well, then you're anxious. It's just kind of this, like, thought that there is no going forward, only going backwards to understand ourself at a base enough level to tolerate the future as opposed to changing it. And he was like, no. Attachment styles are essentially that they are a preference and a style that you have become accustomed to. Just like you might have a fashion that you're into for a couple of years. You can decide to switch it up and become emu or boho at any moment. But understanding why you were drawn to the previous styles that you were, what you learned from it, what you liked from it, is only going to help to better inform this next phase of your life. So we don't look back to understand all that there is. We look back to understand the more that we want to now invite into our lives. We actually had somebody on the podcast recently. He was in Michael. He played Quincy Jones. He's also one of the heartthrobs from Insecure, Kendrick Sampson. And he said something that if I could have grabbed it by the face and just bitten a chunk out of it and savored it forever, I would have, because that's how much I loved this line.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Girl.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Winter is so last season and now spring's got you looking at pictures of tank tops with hungry eyes. Your algorithm is feeding you cutoffs.

[Shan]

You're thirsty for the sun on your shoulders, that perfect hang on the patio

[Co-host/Interviewer]

sundress, those sandals you can wear all day and all night, and you've had enough of shopping from your couch. Done.

[Shan]

Hoping it looks anything like the picture

[Co-host/Interviewer]

when you tear open that envelope.

[Shan]

It's time for a little in person spring treat.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

It's time for a trip to Ross.

[Shan]

Work your magic.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

If we knew more about our sleep, what would we do differently?

[Shan]

Would we go to bed at a consistent time or take steps to reduce interruptions to our sleep?

[Co-host/Interviewer]

With sleepscore, Apple Watch measures your bedtime

[Shan]

consistency, interruptions and sleep duration.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

Then every morning it combines these factors

[Shan]

into an easy to understand score from 1 to 100.

[Co-host/Interviewer]

So you'll know how to take the quality of your sleep from okay to very high.

[Shan]

Know your sleep score with Apple Watch iPhone 11 or later required.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Do I think I could have a wife? Do I think I could be monogamous? Hell yeah. I could be disciplined after I. If I decide on it, I'm going to do it.

[Shan]

Yeah.

[Dr. Amir Levine]

Do I think I can. Yeah. Do I think I can have kids with my wife and do and be successful in it? Yeah, I do. I think it would take more effort than I'm willing to give. I really, I want to put that effort elsewhere. I want to put that effort in these other areas that I'm still not getting right now.

[Shan]

Why did I love it so much? You're going to have to switch over to audio right now to hear the audio only segment where I will share that. For those of you watching, this is where we end our podcast. Thank you so much for your time. I gotta give something to the audio listeners, okay? They don't get to see all the beautiful, all the hotness, all the coolness. They didn't get to see Kendrick Sampson, the look in his eyes when he leaned forward and said those words. They didn't get to feel those feelings. So they get something else. They get a little extra of my time. So don't be jealous. Because after all, if you do want to listen to this segment, all you have to do is switch over to your favorite audio platform, scrub to the end and. And there we'll be picking things up like we never left off. But for everybody else, this is where we leave off. Bye, lovers. So let's talk about why I love that line so much. Don't get me wrong, I could be a great husband. I could find a wife I wanted to have kids with and raise a healthy, happy family. I just don't want to put in the effort that it would take to bring that dream to fruition. And I know that about myself because most of us can confidently say that about something else. In our life, something that we are avoiding the work of. And I really want to double tap on the word avoidance because to me, my favorite part of the Dr. Amir episode was the, I don't know, advocacy for the avoidance out there. Because especially I think of late, we have all been like, avoidant men in particular are the bane of existence. They are what's wrong with dating. They must be cast to the outskirts of society. They must be labeled with a little red dot so we know if they're in the vicinity. Because we want nothing to do with avoidant men, avoidant people in general. But the truth of the matter is, is that avoiding is a fine strategy to evade an outcome that you don't really want for yourself to begin with. And oftentimes, like Kendrick, people are outwardly expressing that they don't want something that is a long term, serious, romantic, committed partnership. And because we all still operate under the belief that what we want is what everyone wants, we dismiss them and we continue to invest in them because we're like, well, I'll just show you that you're wrong. And when we actually find that they were right the whole time, then we're mad at them and then we're mad at ourselves and we create a toxic relationship out of thin air. It didn't have to be that way. This has been such an eye opening Aha. That I had especially in the past few years. And I'm hoping to bring you all on that journey with the Lovers rebrand. Because the Lovers rebrand was actually born out of this simple thought, oh, not everybody actually wants to get better at love. Not everybody wants to have a fulfilling lifetime or a lifetime achievement worthy, at the very least, romantic partnership. That goal is unique to me in a certain sector of the community. And I had this aha. Because prior to 2020, I was one of the few people talking about sex and relationships. I was one of the pioneers in this space. And I was talking about it because I'm like, we all want to talk about it, so somebody should. And that was really the driving force of my work. Then 2020 came and everybody was locked inside. People had much more time to consume more. People were creating content. People were becoming privy to what kinds of content performs well. And then you've got all kinds of people jumping in and talking about relationships, talking about sex, giving advice, giving perspective and giving opinions. And I thought that was an indication that we all equally care about it. But around the 2022 mark, I realized some people are having the same conversations about intimacy. Like, if you're still having the high value men. Women want this, men want this. The click, baity rage, baity conversations. It's not because you, you're refusing to learn. It's because that's actually not even your goal to begin with. Similarly to how people watch sports. Not because they're trying to learn how to be better athletes. They're just doing it for fun, because they want to critique on other skills. And it's very interesting to have the Kobe vs. LeBron debate without ever examining, okay, maybe I'm more drawn to Kobe because he has a similar genetic makeup to me. So my preference for him has to do with my desire to emulate him. No, no, no, nothing to do with any of that. They just know that this is a conversation that's going to drive clicks, drive interest. It's going to make for a fun time. It's entertainment above all else. And I had to come to realize that there are few people out there who want to be romantic athletes. And there's a lot of people out there who are romantic spectators who are just interested in it for some type of sport or side hustle. Just like I have an interest in a number of other things, not as my life's vocation or something I'm devoted to actually bettering myself at, just because it's interesting to shoot the shit about every once in a while with random people. It's fun to me. And when we label everybody as avoidant in the way that I think we've been doing as a society, I think subconsciously what we're saying is, no, everybody wants to get to a loving, committed, lifelong or lifetime achievement level romantic partnership. And people who are avoidant are just broken at doing that. Rather than acknowledging there are some people who are avoidant who, yes, maybe there has been some ruptures from their past or some imbalances in terms of their priorities that they haven't really quite figured out how to ethically manage yet, that causes them to be to sabotage relationships that could be good to their own detriment and to the detriment of others. There's a sector of avoidant people who are that. There's a sector of avoidant people who, as Dr. Amir mentioned, are those whom they want intimacy and they want closeness. But the way in which intimacy is doled out or is given to them must be measured. So while somebody who is anxious can tolerate a lot of closeness and a lot of affection very early on, and that actually is very comforting to them for an avoidant, they may actually desire the same amount of intimacy, but if it's given too fast and too much, it becomes too overwhelming and they're likely to retreat. So those types of avoidance exist as well, which are individuals whom heck like, they really do want what many of us, you know, want, but they just need it with different considerations in mind. So those exist. Then there's also the sector of people who I'm very happy to interview on the podcast who are willing to openly admit, no, no, I'm avoidant because I'm actually avoiding this. I don't want it. There are components of the romance fanfare that I like, but the heart of it, the goal that many people have for it. And when we think about it in terms of an escalation, what most people are working towards, I'm actively running away from. Not because I'm broken, but because I'm disinterested. And I am actively running towards other areas of my life that others are running from. Activism. How many people can say that they have put the effort into helping their community, into uplifting their people in the way that Kendrick Sampson has done, the ways in which he has devoted his life, sacrificed his livelihood, put his very own body on the line? There is ways in which this man exercises love and his desire for belonging that drastically outweigh any effort that I even can conceive myself doing. So who would I be to look down on him for not looking to love as ferociously as I love romantically, when I do not, and likely may not ever love as ferociously as he does as a community member, as an activist, we're all avoidant in some capacity somewhere. And if we're able to identify that and then again not pathologize or judge somebody, because a sure shot way to get somebody to fake the funk and pretend they're someone that they're not is to let them know that if they don't pretend to be that person, that they are excluded from community, from belonging, from respect and from dignity. So by creating a world in which we are open and understanding to others while still very clear on who we are for, I know my content would not be for someone like Kendrick Sampson. I know who I make, who I service, who I work for, who I learn for, who I get lit up by, to come back to, to share information for. Hopefully, if you're listening, it's you. It would make sense that it would be you, because this is the end of the podcast and most people would have trailed off, but you're still here because you're like, let me just get a little bit more. The more information, context, knowledge, perspective I can get on this topic area that lights up my life and drives my why the better. So I'm gonna listen to this till the end. That or maybe you're folding clothes and you can't get to your phone and you haven't gotten to press stop yet. Whatever's clever, but nonetheless, I'm gonna just blanketly say we know what we care about. And acknowledging that others don't care as much as us does not make them any less in any capacity. It makes them more gosh, I love that you can live in your truth and I'm not going to fault you or Internet shame you for that. That's my TED Talk. You know what's so funny is that I was trying to tell Yancy about the way I wanted to talk about this in relation to the episode and how I wanted to put the Kendrick Sampson clip and she was kind of nodding like yeah, yeah, like not really fully certain if those things connect. And I'm not actually fully certain if they connect. But I do know that this was a connection that lit me up and maybe because I'm just lit up in general, or maybe I'm onto something. But either way, thank you for listening. I adore you. Have a wonderful week. Bye, lover Sales and distribution of Lovers by Shan is by Lemonada Media.

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