Getting Real About Kids and Screens (with Ash Brandin)

Summary

Mastermind Parenting Podcast

Episode: Getting Real About Kids and Screens (with Ash Brandin)
Date: February 17, 2026
Host: Randi Rubenstein
Guest: Ash Brandin, teacher, gamer, and author of Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family

---

Episode Overview

This episode digs into the nuanced realities of parenting in a digital age, especially around children and screen time. Randi Rubenstein and Ash Brandin break down the myths, moral judgments, and systemic pressures relating to technology, and how parents can approach screen use with realistic compassion and transparency. The conversation covers modeling healthy tech behavior, addressing guilt, understanding the needs behind screen use, and reframing our approach away from binaries of “good” and “bad.” Listeners walk away with deep insights, practical tools, and permission to drop the guilt in favor of connection and understanding.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Rejecting Binary Thinking About Screens

• [01:12–01:36] Ash expresses frustration with the idea that tech is “all good or all bad.”
• Emphasis on adopting neutrality—accepting that screens are embedded in our lives without viewing them only through a lens of fear or nostalgia.
  • “Nothing enrages me faster than like technology needlessly replacing something that was already functional.” (Ash, 01:12)

2. Screen Time Is a Societal Issue, Not Just an Individual One

• [02:05–06:32] Ash argues that blaming parents for their struggles with screen time is unfair; the problem lies in societal structures:
  • Lack of paid parental leave, accessible childcare, and system-level support makes alternative activities harder.
  • “Individuals are not the reason we're in this place...it can put a lot of guilt on caregivers that they can’t achieve this on their own. But our society isn’t really making it possible to achieve that.” (Ash, 05:00)

3. The Importance of Modeling (and Naming!) Healthy Tech Use

• [10:11–19:26] Randi shares that many parents worry about kids’ screens but never assess their own habits.
  • Ash points out the invisible labor adults do on phones (e.g., grocery lists, work), which kids perceive as leisure unless explicitly named.
  • “The modeling...is to actually name what you're doing. Kids see us on a device and assume it's leisure because it is leisure for them…and they shouldn’t be managing a household.” (Ash, 13:50)
  • Naming your purpose – e.g., “I’m putting Gatorade on the grocery list” – makes a difference.

4. Engaging Kids in Tech for Real-Life Skills and Connection

• [21:02–23:02] Randi proposes involving kids in tasks: “Will you play assistant and jot down the grocery list?”
• Ash shares their “Sabbath setting” for phones—minimizing app clutter as a ritual for presence, and emphasizes preparing kids for reality since tech is embedded in daily living.

5. The Realities (and Limitations) of Opting Out

• [23:02–28:04] Even “going offline” isn’t practical:
  • Randi’s son’s flip phone experiment highlighted how many aspects of modern life (music, navigation, payment, IDs) require a smartphone.
  • “The hardware is not the problem. The infrastructure is the problem.” (Ash, 24:51)

6. Understanding Motivation and Intrinsic Needs Behind Screen Use

• [30:07–36:14] Screens can fill a psychological need—autonomy, competence, connection.
  • Sometimes longing for screens is about seeking agency or skill fulfillment, not simply addiction.
  • “That doesn’t mean that kid is addicted—it could mean the kid is seeking autonomy.” (Ash, 30:07)
  • Viewing interests neutrally can help parents identify what children get from screen time and support those needs in other ways.

7. Leveraging Digital Interests for Real-Life Growth

• [36:14–39:20] Ash’s story about video games inspiring real-world adventure (hiking after playing Zelda) illustrates how digital and real-life experiences can complement, not compete with, each other.
  • “They supplement each other. They don’t need to substitute.” (Ash, 39:20)

8. Scarcity Mindset & Moralizing Technology Backfire

• [41:44–46:31] The “scarcity” model (limiting as much as possible) can make tech more desirable, akin to the moralization of food.
  • “When we moralize food...it can have the opposite effect. It can make us preoccupied.” (Ash, 44:41)
  • Suggests “pairing what you want with what you need” (e.g., a short scrolling break before an unpleasant task).

9. Parental Needs Matter, Too

• [49:00–54:21] Using screen time as a tool for adult needs (e.g., while driving, cooking) is not a moral failing.
  • “The need includes you, the adult. If you can’t get your needs met...utilizing a screen is going to make you a better caregiver who can be present.” (Ash, 50:21)

10. Building Flexibility with Boundaries and Conversations

• [54:21–58:35] Screen rules should adapt as needs and seasons change.
  • Randi and Ash discuss non-moralistic approaches to food and homework (agency, predictability), and how scarcity and extrinsic motivation can backfire in those areas as well.
  • “You have to enjoy the thing you’re doing, and it’s satisfying something for you...that is information that can really inform me about my child.” (Ash, 33:18)

11. Reading & Screens—Different Mediums, Same Needs?

• [56:17–58:35] Noting the irony that excessive reading can mirror excessive tech use, Ash points out our bias (“Isn’t it cute when a kid reads too much, but ‘concerning’ if it’s screens?”).
  • Both can be tools for avoiding something challenging—pay attention to the need behind the behavior, not the medium.

12. Digital Environments as Highly Accommodated Spaces

• [60:45–63:43] Video games naturally build in accommodations (reminders, chunking problems) that many neurodivergent kids thrive on—learn from them!
  • “If we see our kid can remember every Pokémon but not where their socks are...look at why they thrive. Maybe we can use that tool elsewhere.” (Ash, 62:45)

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Moral Neutrality is Key:
  “We are very quick to see screen-based leisure as invalid...we don’t need to be moralizing different forms of leisure with this productivity hierarchy.”
  – Ash Brandin, [13:50]

• Parental Guilt and Societal Failure:
  “Individuals are not the reason we're in this place…our society isn’t really making it possible to achieve [screen-free ideals].”
  – Ash Brandin, [05:00]

• Modeling Transparency:
  “If I pick up my phone and I’m like, ‘Hey, you just grabbed the last Gatorade from the fridge, I’m putting it on our grocery list…then I’m going to set my phone down and go back to playing with you.’”
  – Ash Brandin, [17:16]

• On Tech and Real Life Overlap:
  “They supplement each other. They don’t need to substitute.”
  – Ash Brandin, [39:20]

• Compassion for Parental Limits:
  “If we utilize a screen for a set amount of time with content that works for your child, it’s going to make you a better caregiver who can then put their own device down and be more present. That is a benefit to your kid and it’s a benefit to you—and it’s way more sustainable.”
  – Ash Brandin, [50:21]

• Kids’ Needs Aren’t About the Tool:
  “My kid isn’t better because they’re trying to read constantly than the kid who wants to be on the iPad constantly. It’s the same investigation: why?”
  – Ash Brandin, [56:21]

• On Unpacking Guilt and Judgement:
  “Let’s work with ourselves. Let’s have a deeper conversation about habits and needs and why we do a thing. This is really about understanding human behavior rather than judging human behavior.”
  – Randi Rubenstein, [46:31]

• Digital World is Here:
  “We’re not going to send our kids into a world where it’s possible, let alone practical, to exist without a smartphone. They’re basically a utility.”
  – Ash Brandin, [21:48]

---

Timestamps for Key Segments

• Rejecting binary takes, advocating neutrality – [01:12–06:59]
• Societal context of screens & guilt – [05:00–10:11]
• Parents modeling screen use transparently – [13:48–19:26]
• Involving kids in everyday tech (grocery lists, work) – [21:02–23:02]
• Randi’s son’s flip phone experiment—why it’s impractical – [23:02–28:04]
• Understanding needs/motivation behind screen use – [30:07–33:18]
• How video games can inspire real-world activity – [36:05–39:20]
• Scarcity thinking and moralizing backfire – [41:44–46:31]
• Importance of parental needs in screen time decisions – [49:00–54:21]
• Shifting away from moralizing—books vs. screens – [56:17–58:35]
• Leveraging skills from digital environments – [60:45–63:43]

---

Takeaways & Actionable Tools

• Model transparency: Clearly explain your own tech use so kids don’t misinterpret your actions.
• Recognize and respect needs (yours and your child’s), understanding that screen time can serve valuable purposes for everyone.
• Ditch the guilt: Systemic factors—not just personal choices—drive tech use. Do what works for your family without moralizing.
• Reframe screen activities: View games, YouTube, and other interests as sources of autonomy, competence, or connection—not just distractions, but windows into what kids need more of.
• Adapt your strategies: Seasons and needs change; there is no one-size-fits-all rule for screen time.
• Learn from digital environments: The structure and accommodations that work for your child in games can inspire real-world routines.
• Focus on connection and conversation: Move away from lectures and judgment to collaborative, self-aware family habits.

---

Summary in a Nutshell

Randi Rubenstein and Ash Brandin deliver a rich, compassionate exploration of what it means to parent around screens today. By dropping binary, moralizing approaches and looking to the underlying needs (while naming our own), parents can move beyond guilt and resentment into sustainable routines and real connection with their kids. Tech isn’t the villain—it’s an inescapable fact of modern life, so let’s get curious and collaborative in how we navigate it, together.

---

Recommended Next Step:
Read Ash Brandin’s Power On: Managing Screen Time to Benefit the Whole Family for practical frameworks, conversation starters, and deeper dives into the topics covered in this episode.

Transcript

[Parent sharing personal experience]

This has been one of the best breaks from school that we have had in a very long time. And I owe it to the Pac leadership training and Randy, your coaching, he was kind of like back to himself, like back to his creative self, marching to the beat of his own drum, doing his thing. His independent play was like, amazing. I was like, I don't know who this kid is. There were many mornings where he would just like go and draw or go and like color read a book or build with his magna tiles. Like, he was just like doing his thing. And then even like when we would have TV time, he would be like, all right, I'm done. I'm ready to go play outside. And it was amazing. I never thought that it would ever be that way.

[Ash Brandon]

Nothing enrages me faster than like technology, like needlessly replacing something that was already functional. I hate, I hate it. And I know that me, like having that as the hill I'm willing to die on is not going to make it go away.

[Narrator/Host introduction]

When it comes to kids and screen time, it's easy to get trapped in binary thinking. But screens can't be all good or all bad, can they?

[Ash Brandon]

The opposite of a binary take, like a very fear based take, is being neutral and being able to recognize that, okay, this is the reality we're in and I don't necessarily like it, but like, this is the reality we're in.

[Narrator/Host introduction]

Ash Brandon is a teacher, gamer and author of Power Managing Screen Time to benefit the Whole family. They've helped families just like yours to set loving boundaries around kids and screens that respects the technology while centering the needs of our children.

[Ash Brandon]

Like individuals are not the reason we're in this place. So it feels a little unfair to then put the burden of that further on the individual. It can put a lot of guilt on caregivers that they can't achieve this on their own. But our society isn't really making it possible to achieve that.

[Randy Rubenstein]

My name is Randy Rubenstein and welcome to the Mastermind Parenting podcast. At Mastermind Parenting, we're on a mission to support strong willed kids and the families that love them. Well, hi everyone. I am here with Ash Brandon and we are talking about all things screens, technology, our kids and screens, our teenagers on screens, the conversation that is sort of the bane of many of our existences. And thank God for you, for people like you who teach us how we're supposed to do to navigate this tricky topic. So thank you so much.

[Ash Brandon]

Absolutely. Thank you so much for having me. I'm glad to be here.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Okay, your Book Power on. I love the name. Power on Managing. Managing Screen Time to benefit the whole family. How did you come up? I'm naming something right now and so like finding just the right name. How did you find that name?

[Ash Brandon]

I can't remember what I originally had said. It was something extremely similar and my agent like tweaked it just the tiniest bit to end up with Power On. The subtitle was me. But yeah, it was. I can't remember what I originally thought and I think it was like too close to something that already existed or something. And then my agent suggested that one.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah, it sucked. It's so good and this book is so good. And I have to tell you that it's so funny because in my Basics program, I also teach a nice framework.

[Ash Brandon]

What? No way is that Unbelievable. That's awesome. What is yours for?

[Randy Rubenstein]

So people come in and when they take my initial program, it's a 12 week program and we call it Basics Boot camp. And they're just basically looking, they're learning the Mastermind parenting method, you know, method of handling strong willed kids for supporting strong willed kids. Yeah, just those kids that seem like they just don't want to cooperate. But the truth is, is that we're quite often solving the wrong problem. We're thinking that they're the problem when that's just not the case. And so I take people through this framework and we're, we get real good at identifying what is the actual problem that we're solving.

[Ash Brandon]

And it's not overlap.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah, there's a lot of nice overlap. That's really the main reason I wanted to talk to you today. I was telling you that my co worker, Lindsay, she started listening to your book and she just kept sending me messages saying, mastermind aligned. Like, we love them. You have to talk to them on the podcast. This is the thing we've been looking for. And I was like, okay, okay, okay, okay. And you know, my kids are older, so I'm not in, in the fire in the same way, but I am in the fire with all of my clients and all of the moms and dads who are struggling with why. How long do we have to wait for Silicon Valley to make life a little easier on us parents? But in the meantime, we need people like you that help us to, to navigate. And you know, I, I want to talk about, you know, the thing I liked about your book so much is it's rooted in realism. Right? Like, like. So look, I love the work of Jonathan Haidt and there's Many things that I completely agree with. However, however, I'm like, yes. Play based childhood. Yes, yes, yes. And like how many people are living their lives in the way he prescribes?

[Ash Brandon]

Uhhuh. Thank you. Perfect. Yes. I mean what you said is perfectly said. Like I would, I would love, I've said this many times, you know, I'd love to be able to unring the bell of technological ubiquity. Like people assume that because I am not like more fear based or like anti screen that I must be like pro screen. And I'm like, no, the opposite of like a binary take. I mean not to make this too meta is a non binary take.

[Parent sharing personal experience]

Right?

[Ash Brandon]

Which is like which the opposite of a binary take. Like a very, you know, fear based take is new. Is being neutral and being able to recognize that okay, this is the reality we're in and I don't necessarily like it, but like this is the reality we're in. And you know, I joke that there's this like meme from the Simpsons of it says like old man yells at cloud and it's like his dad like yelling at a cloud. And you know, I say nothing turns me into that faster than like when I go to park my car and there's no more like kiosks to put in my license plate number. And now it's like scan this QR code and download an app. And I'm like, no, you know, nothing, nothing enrages me faster than, than like technology like needlessly replacing something that was already functional. I hate, I hate it. And I know that me like having that as the hill I'm willing to die on is not going to make it go away. Right. And so I think there's sort of a nostalgia built into that way of viewing the world that we're kind of pining for this reality that just doesn't exist anymore. And I think it is, I think it is in many ways a symptom of an overly individualistic world in America that got us here. We didn't care enough for parents to have paid parental leave. We didn't care enough for young families to have affordable or accessible or free universal childcare. We didn't care enough about the collective to put in these foundational systemic like bumpers that would make it easier to have one caregiver at home or being able to say, you're going to go play outside or I'm going to be able to completely turn off my work brain because I'm spending more time at home. Like those things are built into the framework. And so then when we say, like, oh, we'll just do more as an individual to try to attain that, like, individuals are not the reason we're in this place. So it feels a little unfair to then put the burden of that further on the individual. Because as you said, like, most families are not in a position where they can do this. And the families that are, are really privileged. I don't mean that like, derisively. I'm one of those families technically. But, you know, a family living in an apartment building in an urban environment, they can't just be like, go outside a family who is facing disability or has a neurodivergent child or families of color. They can't just send their kids outdoors unattended. We don't live in a world where that's systemically possible. So I think it's a very simple sounding idea that then becomes like, really, it can put a lot of guilt on caregivers that they can't achieve this on their own. But our society isn't really making it possible to achieve that.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Right. Even in the privileged population. It's like we set the tone, the parents set the tone. And I think the conversation that most people, everyone wants to talk about are kids being addicted to screens and they're not moving their bodies and they're not playing outside. But I can't tell you how many moms come clean when they start working with me and they're a part of my groups and they see that it's like, oh, we're doing that here. It's like radical truth telling. And we're talking about what really is happening behind the scenes. And, you know, so people get honest and they're on their phones the whole time. Like, it, it never occurred to so many parents when I say, listen, like, even if you have. Your life is set up where from the time your kid comes home from school, you, you're not at work, you're home with them. Put your phone. If you, if you don't want them to be on devices, put your phone in a drawer, put it away. Don't be on it. Like, just don't be on your screen when you know, when you're with them, just be with them and, and put it away if it's too hard to scroll. Like, I understand if you get like a, you know, a phone call or whatever, but if it's like, you know, somebody, like, it's, it's an emergent situation or whatever it is, but if it's like, I'm with my kids, we're going to go to the park or we're hanging out at home or whatever. And if you're just sitting there scrolling on social media and then you don't want them to go and, and, and scroll on their iPad or scrolling whatever, I'm like, then just model the thing that you're expecting from them. And it's like it never occurred to anyone to check in on their own screen habits. I've. I see it over and over and over again and way we talk about it is, I'll say, you know, back in the day it never occurred to me that maybe I shouldn't just be like shooting the. With my friend when I'm driving with my kids. Like when I'm driving with my kids, I'll have like that's a great time to talk to them, right? It's, it's a great time to just listen to music together. It's a. And like it was like when I was really, when I was a young mom, I was just like chatting it up with my friends and then all of a sudden one day I realized it's kind of rude. Like if, you know, really, it's just, it's kind of rude. So I just started, I started there and I was like, when I'm in the car, I'm just not, I'm not going to, I'm not chit chatting on the phone with friends when I'm hanging out with my kids or when I'm with, I'm with, I'm going to be with the people I'm with. Right. And then that turned into, well, if I don't want them to come straight home from school and just want to go, you know, back in the day it was like they wanted to go on webkinz or they wanted to play we, you know, like the things that. And so if I don't want them to just rush into those things right away, then I'm going to be, I'm going to be available, you know, just like hanging out in the same room. Even if I'm like doing something else, I'm just there. The minute I find I get on a screen, then they want to get on a screen too. So if I don't want them on a screen, I'm just going to do that. And I don't think, you know, I think it's like most adults are talking about how worried they are about their kids being on screens too much, but they're not necessarily evaluating their own screen usage.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah.

[Randy Rubenstein]

What are your Thoughts about that?

[Ash Brandon]

Well, there's. Yeah, there's a lot in there. What I think is really interesting is what I think is sort of silently implied, but people aren't always necessarily aware of, is that when they say something like that they're worried about their kids screen usage, but not necessarily about their own. That I think implies that the child screen usage is being seen as basically leisure based and an adult screen usage is being seen as non leisure based. And both of those are very broad blanket statements, neither of which is entirely true. But it A lot of I think our difficulty with treating technology with a moral neutrality, which is something I advocate a lot for, is that we are very quick to see screen based leisure as having validity like other forms of leisure. So if my kid wanted to go play soccer at the soccer field, we would probably be like, oh yeah, that's great, they're getting outside, they're playing with people. But if they then came home because it was dark and they then hopped onto FIFA soccer with those same kids, we would not think of that as being as good. Big air quotes here, as good a leisure activity, but leisure, we don't need to be moralizing different forms of leisure with this productivity hierarchy. Leisure is valuable. And I think we're also naming, which is true, that a lot of the time when an adult is using their phone, most of the time it isn't for leisure. And I sometimes think about going to the park, as you mentioned, if it were 30 years ago and a parent were sitting on the park bench while their kid was playing and that adult were going through the mail and clipping coupons and writing down the grocery list, I don't think people would have really batted an eye at that. But now if that same adult is sitting on a bench and they are opening up their grocery app and they are clipping digital coupons and they're making a pickup order so that they can go pick up groceries and spend more quality time with their children, we are, I think, quicker to go like, oh, there, there's that parent just on their phone all the time. There is an incredible amount of domestic and invisible labor that lives on phones. And so sometimes if I do want to prioritize the time in which I am with my child, like physically, that also may mean that I am having to use the times in which they may be otherwise occupied to attend to the needs of my household. And a lot of those needs they can get done on a device. So the modeling that you speak of, one of the aspects of modeling I think is really really helpful is to actually name what you're doing. Because kids, rightfully, they see us on a device and they assume it's leisure because it is leisure for them. Right. They're not yet managing a household and they shouldn't be.

[Parent sharing personal experience]

But.

[Ash Brandon]

So if they see us pick up a device, they may associate it with leisure and also with like the sort of off limits nature that it is for them. But if I pick up my phone and I'm like, hey, you just grabbed the last Gatorade from the fridge. I am putting Gatorade on our grocery list. Otherwise I'm going to forget. Then I'm going to set my phone down and go back to playing with you. I mean, that's very different than like I'm just sort of mysteriously picking it up and looking like I'm preferring it over them. So that modeling might just be like kind of the scripting of what we're

[Randy Rubenstein]

doing and why that's so good. Yeah, no, it's so good just to even. Just to even. Because I think we all do assume. I think there is such a. Yeah, like there's, there's this morality that's built in that if you see people on their phone, you know, it's. I, I mean, I don't know. I, I remember seeing a thing with Simon sent Simon Sinek. Do you know that guy? Who.

[Ash Brandon]

I know the name.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah. Like he, he has a really famous TED Talk and he was talking about how like if you go into a business meeting and you, they've done studies and if you put your phone even on the conference table, even face down, that sends the people a message that you're not fully present because if somebody wants to, you know. So I do think there's been a lot of morality wrapped up in the phone. But I think you bring up such a simple concept. It's communication. It's. You're hanging out with your kid and you're like, you're like, oh, I gotta do the grocery list real quick. Wait, Okay. I know we're at a Gatorade. I'm just gonna do this real quick. Oh, hang on, let me just put this grocery order in. Just tell them, just tell them what you're working on. Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

Or, or like sometimes I've gotten like a text from, you know, up a, a friend of my child's. Adult, right. And I'm like, oh, your friend's mom just texted me. I'm gonna text her back. Because we're trying to figure, you know, you asked to play with them. We're Figuring out our schedules. Then I'll go back to that.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

Just sort of naming. And also because otherwise a lot of that labor is like further invisible to our kids. So even thinking about sort of all of the skills embedded within that of like the labor, executive functioning, all of that kind of thing, it is good for them to see that. And there are lots of kind of accommodations that live in our phones, like reminders and lists. And if we're utilizing those, I think that's also important to name. Right. There's been times in the car where I am like remotely telling Siri, like, put this on my reminders for tomorrow.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And it. So that I don't forget, I'm sort of modeling how I'm using that technology to accommodate myself in that moment and, and doing it in a way that's sort of transparent. And I have to just say that anecdote about the boardroom that can only be said by a non default parent. Can you imagine like the. If a default parent or someone that was like read as a woman came in there and had her phone on the thing because her kid had a 99 degree fever this morning and now she's waiting for the call for school and all these men are standing, sitting there thinking that she's not committed to the company. Like, there's just a lot to unpack in there.

[Randy Rubenstein]

So it's so true. And the other thing I was thinking, and I know I've seen, I want to even say I remember my husband doing this because he loves to. He's a real estate guy. And so he'll do it to me. We'll be driving around and he'll say,

[Parent sharing personal experience]

will you,

[Randy Rubenstein]

will you grab my phone and you know, send me an email or do a thing and say that the lights are out at 4,204, you know, like. And so it's work stuff. And he's done that with our kids too. And so I'm thinking, you know, how about if your kids are old enough and they love screens and you're driving and you're like, hey, will you, you know, will you play assistant for a little bit while we're driving? Let's figure I'm. Will you jot down this grocery list or will you hold the phone up so that, you know, I can tell Siri. Whatever, whatever. Like, you can also include your kid and use them, you know, do it together, you know, and give them some purpose, which kids love that kind of stuff.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. And if you have things in place that you're trying to do for yourself. Like, this is true for me of, you know, times that you're trying to have it away. Or for me, like on my, on the weekend, I joke, I call it my Sabbath setting for the phone that I have turn. It like turns itself to a very different setting on the weekend. I see far fewer apps. It's kind of this reminder to myself that like, that stuff can generally wait. And that's also things to name and to just make clear of, like, oh, this is a way that I do. I try to make it easier to be present and remind myself that, you know, all the work will wait and my job is to be here with you because, you know, eventually our kids are going to have these things, right? Kind of going back to we were talking about before. We're not going to send our kids into a world where we can really unring that bell, right? We're not going to send them into a world where it's even possible, let alone practical, to kind of exist without a smartphone like anymore. They're basically a utility, right? Like there are many parts of life that are kind of inaccessible without them. I don't like that. But it's kind of their reality.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Well, let me tell you, my, my, my 19 year old son who's a sophomore in college right now, ever since the summer he's been, he put himself on a flip phone experiment, we're calling it the Flip Phone Experiment because he had been having a hard time for the last several years. It was, it's TikTok. And he would uninstall it, he would reinstall it, he would uninstall it. But then he found himself just going to Instagram and he's like, so I'm just using Instagram reels and it's not even as good as Tik. And I'm like, no, Tick. I mean, I think TikTok has the best audience. Like, I think those people, the comments on TikTok, I think those people, I think they are so hilarious. My daughter's like, yeah, no, it's all about like. I was like, why do people on Tick Tock have the best senses of humor? Like, it just I. The vibe on there so good. He's like, right, so now I'm just on Instagram, which is not even as good a version, but I'm still doing the same thing. And so he went, he decided I'm just going to go San's smartphone and go to a flip phone. So he's been using a flip phone and it's been a really interesting experiment, but I will tell you, it was. Well, he used his phone for Apple Maps or Google Maps. Like how do you get, you know, so, so how is he gonna get places in his car? He's used, you know, there's no Maps program. He didn't have a built in navigation in the car.

[Ash Brandon]

Right. So many things. You're digital.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yes, Spotify. He was like, how do I listen to my music? He had to buy this little extra device thing. It was like he kept having to buy all these different devices because it was so much less convenient. And it's been a really interesting. I mean we take it for granted, but smartphones are super efficient.

[Ash Brandon]

Right? Well, and, and that's kind of baked into the design too. Like I had a thread like the, you know, the Instagram Twitter equivalent go unbelievably viral because everyone pretty frequently on there, I will see people saying like, we need to bring back ipods. And I'm like, iPods exist. MP3 players cost like $35. These still these tech. The hardware is not the problem. The infrastructure is the problem. Yeah, like, good luck trying to own physical media. And by physical I mean like just anything you can own. Like, I know an MP3 is not physical, but you get what I mean. And people would completely kind of miss the point and be like, you can get an external drive and you can get CDs from the secondhand store from the library and you can rip them and then you just transfer the files. I'm like, you are missing my point. Because my point is what you're talking about of like it, it has to be accessible, it has to be simple, it has to be sustainable. And thinking about, you know, my own child, like a lot of we kids consume media differently than we did, right? My kid, the music my kid wants to listen to, a lot of it is like things that are not even possible to own, right? It's like things that might be in YouTube videos or it's like background music. And there's not a CD of that, right? And even if there is, it's like, yeah, it's just not practical in the same way. And I'm like, well, what am I supposed to do? Teach my kid how to like pirate music and download this and use five attachments to get it onto this piece of physical hardware for what? Right? It just feels like again, we're trying to recreate this sort of nostalgia, the thing we have nostalgia for, but it's just, it's just not the same world. And like your son was experiencing I'm really. I was fascinated to hear how that was going for him because, yeah, there's just. There's a lot you just can't access in the world anymore. We were somewhere where they had QR codes for menus, which, again, yes, don't, don't love. Really, really don't love it. I understood it during COVID but now I'm like, please just give me a paper menu. We were. We were somewhere where they had a QR code for the menu. And I, I had left my. We were at a hotel. I'd left my phone in the room, and I was like, I don't have a phone. And they were like, we don't have a paper copy. Like, they just did not have another option. And that's a very small example, but it's like, okay, going to the airport and.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yes, going to the airport. Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

IDs.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

And a lot of, like, teen parents. It's like, okay, well, I don't want to give my kid a bunch of cash. I don't want to give my kid a credit card because they could lose it. Okay. That's kind of the purpose of digital wallets. I can give my kid a digital wallet with a set spending limit. I can set them up with a card that texts me if they try to send. Spend more than a certain amount of dollars. They could have their bus pass on there. They can have their ID on there. Some apartment buildings use phones as an access the building.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

So that you're not losing a physical key. Some jobs have you clock in with your smartphone. So, you know, seeking that, like, past version, it's just. It's just not the world that we live in anymore. It's just such a good.

[Randy Rubenstein]

It's such a good point. And it's. And, you know, he. I'm going to have him on the podcast because I said to him, I want us to break down this experiment because I'm not even sure that it has accomplished what he was hoping it would accomplish. Yeah, he was saying to me, we were kind of breaking it down recently. And because he still has an iPad, because he needs to. He does a lot of his work on it, right? And so. And he takes it to class and whatever. So he still has an iPad. Well, since he has an iPad, he's like, okay, so I kept Instagram on the iPad because it's not with me all the time. It felt like, okay, I'd have to be actually at home, whatever. He goes, but then I'll find myself. I keep finding myself like the last few mornings I wasn't feeling great. I woke up and I rotted on Instagram in the bed. And you know, and so I was like, I think this is going to be an interesting thing to unpack because it's like he wasn't feeling that great. He was a little under the weather. He was kind of dreading getting up and going to this class. It's getting towards the end of the semester, it was like Monday through Thursday, Class 8 to 12. It was like a part time job kind of class. It was awful and so awful. Yeah, it's awful. And so it's like towards the end he was a little sick, he was feeling a little yuck. And you know, we started talking about like, you know, when, you know, he was like, yeah, and then I get up and I wrote on Instagram. And, and so I still have that in me. Like, why am I making that choice? You know, it was an interesting. Yeah, like it was. And that's. And, and that. And, and maybe this will even segue into. I want to hear your thoughts on that. But I loved how you talked about motivation and intrinsic motivation and like, that was so interesting and I, I wanted to learn more about that. Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes. Okay. Well, before I forget where my brain wants to go and I do, and I talk about this in my book, in the chapter about like potentially problematic relationships with video games, because that's a thing that a lot of people, like my kid is addicted and what you were just bringing up. Sometimes it's actually my kid is very motivated and those are not always the same thing. But one of the things that I was reading about when I was doing research for the sort of problematic relationship chapter was thinking about, okay, like if, if your son were here, I would ask when you are, when he's like engaging with TikTok, with Instagram, et cetera, like, what is it doing for him? Like, why is, what is the, what is the need that it is filling? And I mean like the psychological need. And sometimes depending on like what the media is that someone wants to engage with, sometimes it might be like I am a young kid and I spend all day being told what to do and where to go and stand here and put your name on this and don't do that and stop touching them. And I get home and all I want to do is feel in control, right? So that kid is going to want to feel like they're in control. They're calling the shots and nobody's going to tell them they're doing something wrong. And yeah, they're probably going to want to play Minecraft, right? Because that's an environment where they can feel that. But that doesn't mean that that kid is like addicted to Minecraft. It could mean that that kid is seeking autonomy. And if I'm able to view it that way, that is completely different. Right? If I look at my kid and go, oh, they really do. They just need a chance to like decompress and not get like corrected and feel in control.

[Randy Rubenstein]

I can help them, I want to say, because I, I, I, I think that's, it's so good and it's so true. And it's also like, I was talking, my 27 year old, I have a, my oldest son is 27 years old and I was talking and he, he's the video game. He loves video games. My husband also loves video games and we won't even talk about how old he is. But I, he, I love that he kind of loves video games because I think it's really cute and I think that, I mean, he just, he just gets so much joy out of playing his little video games. So anyway, my son also loves to play video games. And, and I was asking him recently, what do you love so much about it? And, and he said, you know, I'm really good at it. And that was it. It was like he was never the kid that was the best at blah, blah, blah, sport or, you know. But there's this video game and he plays with all of his friends and it's his chance and they all live in different cities. You know, it's like friends from college and friends from high school and they live in lots of different places and he loves getting together with his friends and he's really good at it. And I thought that was so interesting. Anyway, sorry to interrupt.

[Ash Brandon]

No, no, I'm so glad you brought that up because, yeah, that, that comes up a lot when I'm talking about motivation is, you know, if we, if we actually ask people like, why do you enjoy the games that you enjoy? There are games that are designed in a more extrinsically motivated way, which is more like gambling. You know, it's sort of like log in every day and get a prize and maybe it'll be great. Right? That's, that's different. And that is a predatory kind of design. But when it's things that are more commercial games you're paying up front for. You know, if I were to like pay $60 for a Zelda game and then it was constantly like incentivizing me to come back and play more, I would not buy that game. Right. Like, that wouldn't work and I wouldn't, I would feel kind of infantilized. Right. So a lot of the reasons that people like these things are what is exactly what you're talking about? They make us feel in control, they make us feel connected to other people and they make us feel skilled. And that is what in psychology called self determination theory. And that's what supports intrinsic motivation. And that supports intrinsic motivation whether we're talking about playing FIFA soccer or regular soccer or baking or embroidery. Right. Like, you have to enjoy the thing you're doing and it's going to satisfy something for you. And if I notice that my child is really enjoying something with technology and it's satisfying one or more of those needs, that's information that can really inform me about my child and it can also really inform me about, like, what other things might they enjoy? If I have a kid who really likes playing something open ended and freeform like Minecraft or something strategic, like they're playing along with friends, well, I can find other things in their life that might help give them that, that same feeling. Not because I'm trying to replace it, but because what we don't want is, we don't want a kid to go, oh, if I want to feel in control, I should play Minecraft. That is the only way I feel in control. If that's the only way they can feel it, then, yes, they're going to return to it. We don't want a kid who thinks I'm only good at video games. Right. But it's okay if that's one part of their lives. But when we're able to notice, oh, they're really good at being strategic, they're really good at being creative. We can help them find other ways of exploring that. And then what they're learning is like, oh, I thought I was only good at Minecraft. I'm actually really good at being creative. And then they're seeing that they can kind of scratch that itch in more than one way, which is a good, like, transfer of the skill outside of games. I have like a kind of weird relationship with exerciser.

[Parent sharing personal experience]

I did.

[Ash Brandon]

And I didn't really like, I think, a lot of millennials. I had sort of this transactional relationship with it. And I had like, me too. Kind of.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Me too. Okay.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. I kind of started hiking a little bit on trails near my house before my child was born. And then when my child was like three months old, is when the initial like first Nintendo Switch came into our household and I was just doing a lot of like sitting around, you know, sitting in naps and, and just being still a lot. And I started playing. At the time, the new Zelda game was Breath of the Wild. And you're doing a lot of just like exploring a map and running around and going up mountains and. And I just really enjoyed that aspect of it of like, I'm gonna go up here. Oh, I'm gonna find this, this lake. I'm just gonna explore this environment. And then when the summer came around, I realized that, oh, maybe I can like explore that similar feeling in the real world and kind of use the hiking habit. I kind of started and this interest, maybe I can kind of combine them together. And I start. I live in Colorado, so I started doing like summit hiking, like climbing to the top of something. And the first time I did that, I was like on my way up and kind of crested this like ridge and looked over the ridge and below me was a alpine lake, which is, you know, pretty common in the topography of mountains, but was not something I had like organically discovered before, but I had in that Zelda game. And so my first thought was like, oh my God, it's like just like in that game, it really is like this, right? Like this is really what this looks like. And if it hadn't been for that, I wouldn't, I wouldn't have felt as much of a reason to do it. It's like it kind of gave me an idea of what to expect. And do they feel exactly the same? No. No, they don't. It's not like when I, you know, run up the mountain in Zelda, I'm thinking of that as the same kind of accomplishment. But, you know, sometimes I can devote most of a day to waking up at 5am and getting in my car and driving an hour and hiking for three hours and more and more and coming and other times I can't. But both of those things are giving me a sense of autonomy. I'm in control. I'm the one deciding to do this. And they're giving me a feeling of self reliance to a degree and they're also giving me a feeling of achievement. I saw a thing and I did the thing and I feel different or better because of it. And if I were to view the video game as like a, as a less good version, all that's going to do, especially as I'm a kid, is kind of make me resentful, right? Of like, I'm not saying they're exactly the same. I'm just saying I enjoy them both. Right. And as the adult, if I know that my kid enjoys a digital version of something, if that can help them enjoy the real life version, great. And they can coexist with each other. Right? They supplement each other. They don't need to substitute.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Well, it's like a book in a movie, you know, you can. I mean, just because we've read the book doesn't mean we're not going to go see the movie. Chances are we're going to go see the movie. And it's so exciting to see the characters that you've envisioned and read about what they look like on screen. Right. It's always, it always, to me, it always feels exciting when a book is. That you've loved is made into a movie. So it's almost like it just intensifies the experience, the story and sometimes the, you know, a lot of times the movie, it doesn't do justice to the book. Right, right, right. And, and so you might like, like, I loved that you were like, yeah, exercise. We have this challenging relationship. But then you're like experiencing this through the video game. And then when you went and had a 3D real life experience, you're like, what? Well, this is freaking cool. You know, like, it was cool in the video game and this is super cool when you're experiencing it in real life. And, and so, yeah, I liked that. Like, they can coexist together. I love this. I've never thought about it like that. I think it's. Yeah, I, it's. And I've been so guilty of being like, get off the screen, go outside. You know, like when Corey said I was just rotting on Instagram. Well, where do you think he got that language? I mean, frankly.

[Ash Brandon]

Well, yeah, I mean, Rod, like, that is. I feel like that's a, like a Gen Z term of like, rot. Like.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Oh, I use that. I. But I mean, we're rotters. We're. We are. We. We are proud rotters in our house. Like, we do love to be, you know, like, we love to lounge lizard together. We love to watch. I mean, I'm a big. Watch movies in bed kind of person. Like, that's one of my pleasures and joys, you know, and I love to like, hole up with them.

[Ash Brandon]

So.

[Randy Rubenstein]

But yeah, I've, I've definitely taken a moral high ground. And so I, I love that you pointed it out because, you know, sometimes it's like things are in your blind spot. You can't even see it until somebody points it out and then you can't unsee it. And so I just. Yeah, like, it's, it's, it's accurate in my life.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah. You know when you were talking about with your son and him talking about, like, oh, yeah, I didn't feel well. And I was like, rotting on Instagram before I had to go to this class, I was dreading it. It reminded me, well, of a couple of things, one of which actually was also related to Zelda. Back to, like, the modeling. There was a day where I. I was like, sad. I was like in a funk. And I was around my kiddo and I said, like, I feel sad. I cannot kick this feeling. I'm gonna play some Zelda. Like, I just maybe, maybe it'll help. And I played for like, you know, a chunk of time, 20, 30 minutes. And I paused it and said, you know, while I'm playing it, it feels good. And. But I can also tell that, like, as soon as I stop, I'm just gonna feel sad again. So that means that this was distracting me. And in this case, I don't really want to be distracted. I want to actually, like, work through this feeling because otherwise I'm gonna have to play Zelda all day and I can't do that. So this didn't help. I don't really want to stop, but I think I need to try something else. So I'm gonna pause and I'm gonna go for a walk. And I don't really want to go for a walk, but I need to do something else to try to address this feeling. So it was like, just modeling, like the emotional regulation and also naming that. You know, sometimes if I am at work and I get terrible news, I might need a temporary distraction to get through the rest of my day and be functional. And so maybe I am going to, you know, pull up TikTok to try to kind of get my brain back online, even if for a few minutes. Or I'm going to go. If I. If I can't sleep one night. If I. It wouldn't do me any good if I was like, well, I can't get an extra latte today because that's a short term solution. It's like, well, yeah, but also it's like, right. It sounds silly then, right? But I think it's knowing that there are different purposes for these things. There's a. There's a fitness influencer that I stole a trick from, which I used today actually, with my lunch, where he talks about pairing what you want with what you need. And in his case, he was trying to like eat a certain amount of protein. So he was crumbling double stuffed Oreos into plain Greek yogurt. He was pairing his wants and his needs. And so I think about something like that where it's like, okay, if I were not feeling well and I woke up and I knew I have a four hour class to go to. Yeah, none of nothing about that is motivating. Like, that sounds awful. And what if I, on my walk across campus, what if I scrolled TikTok on my way across campus, you know, because I think we can go to an unintentional place of scarcity mindset with technology of like, I don't want to be preoccupied, I don't want my kid to get obsessed. So I'm going to limit it as much as I possibly can. But we know especially from like food, as many of us were raised in like the 80s and 90s, when we moralize food, when we put food up on a pedestal, when we do that with anything, it can have the opposite effect. It can make us preoccupied with that thing. And then the message we get from that is as I was hearing some of what your son was saying was like, I'm the problem, right? Like, I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't know why I keep wanting this. Well, it could be many things. It could be because it's hard to get out of bed when you don't feel good and it's hard to go to a non preferred task. And also it's hard when you try to put something off limits that you enjoy. So obviously if someone's trying to like completely remove something from their life, they can choose to do that, right? There are times that's appropriate and sometimes maybe it's, I want to find a way for this to fit in my life. So there's definitely times where I am like, okay, I need like five minutes to scroll my phone because it's just, that's just, it's been a day and I need it. But I know if I like sit on the couch, it'll become 25 minutes. So like the, the other day my spouse walked into our closet and I was literally lying on the floor

[Parent sharing personal experience]

and

[Ash Brandon]

my spouse was like, are you okay? And I was like, I'm fine. I'm lying on the floor because I know that I can't lie here for 25 minutes, right? Like I'll lie here for five minutes and then I'll move because this is not I can't lie here for that long. So I put myself in a position where I was like, I can only do this for five minutes or yes, I'll scroll my phone as I walk to this class. Because then I get to class and I have to put the phone away and there's like a built in thing that's going to limit it.

[Randy Rubenstein]

That the, the way you were talking about all of this, what just came to me, and I hope I can articulate it is it's such a richer conversation and than about giving your kid the right thing with the right, you know, look, parental restrictions and all that stuff I think is, I think is necessary. I think it's great. I think it's, I wish, like I was saying at the beginning, Silicon Valley would, you know, there would. The government would start to put some controls on Silicon Valley and, and make our lives easier. I do think all that stuff is necessary, but it's deeper. This is really about understanding human behavior rather than judging. Right. Judging human behavior. Let's work with ourselves. Let's have a deeper conversation about habits and needs and why we do a thing. This feels like, like I love that you have some. I mean you're teaching parents like you gave a lot of resources towards the end of the book. It's funny, we have a framework called the Same Thing, which.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Like, I'm sorry that I, I was like, how. What are the odds of that?

[Ash Brandon]

That's really funny.

[Randy Rubenstein]

And my hunch is, is that you named it that kind of tongue in cheek like I named it that. You know, just like parents are always telling their kids to be nice, but it's like. And then they're like, are. How nice are you being? You know, like, sure, but I think that. Yeah, like, like let's figure out. We're always just trying to get a need met. And I love how you provided resources towards the end because it really was about conversations and boundaries and how to have those conversations and, and some examples of what a conversation might look like and real stories from your own life. Like, I loved the story of you driving through this sort of, you know, sketchy drive. And I, I could imagine myself, it's like one of those white knuckle grip drives like through the mountains and bad weather. And your kids on the iPad, you're like, okay, I'm gonna plug them in on the iPad. I'm gonna be white knuckling it. And then next thing you know, your kids like needing your assistance.

[Ash Brandon]

Right, right. And I can't get mad at them for that because, like, of, like I hadn't done it, like, I hadn't thought about how to set us up for success beforehand. Right. And. But I think a lot of care givers feel like, well, I'll utilize that if I really, really, really have to, like, as a sort of third rail. And then if it doesn't, like, immediately kind of make everything infinitely easier, then I think we're sort of like a little like, grumpy. Like, what do you mean? You should be grateful I'm letting you do this. This was supposed to be the magic bullet. What do you mean? It has its own set of problems. Right? But yeah, when you brought that up, I was thinking, oh, yeah, like the drives to the mountains. Because even now, like, we're probably going to go to the mountains pretty soon, it's winter and I literally will, like, time when my kid can have some screen time when we start driving up this particular mountain pass. Because I'm like, I need to be fully focused on keeping us safe. Right now my focus is going on the car and the road and all of us staying safe. And so that's my need. And what I really like about thinking about the need is that the need includes you, the need includes the adult. And that doesn't mean my need is superseding.

[Parent sharing personal experience]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

But it is including me. Because if I think about only the need of one person, like, I think when we think about kids in screen time, we're often thinking about, oh, well, they need to have as little as possible. It's like, right, but if you cannot get your needs met, because we live in systemic inequity. Right back to what we were saying at the beginning. If, if utilizing a screen for a set amount of time with content that works for your child is going to make you a better caregiver and who can then put their own device down and be more present, that is a benefit to your kid and it's a benefit to you. And it's way more sustainable than trying to abstain for as long as possible and then giving in and then feeling like it didn't work and kind of this, like, you know, fits and starts and then you just feel guilty about it. Like, that's not helpful to anybody.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah, I know. I mean, I think that, like, when you talk, I was like, that's exactly what I used it for. I remember I always let my kids watch, especially when they were little, and I, like, was making dinner. That was the end of the day. We'd had a whole day. I'm tired. I kind of kicked myself later because, you know, I was like, I should have included them more because then maybe they would have learned how to cook and I would have had some helpers. But whatever, I was too tired. And that was. I mean, I remember when. When my son Alec was in preschool, Tiny and I would put him. I played this, like, back then, it was like VHS tapes. I had. I mean, I had like a VHS Sesame street tape. And I played it, like, every night. I wanted. I don't even know, maybe a year. And it was like, I knew exactly how long that tape was. I knew exactly how long I had. I could literally make dinner. I could do. You know, I just. I had that time for. And I needed it. I mean, yes, I needed it, you know.

[Parent sharing personal experience]

Right.

[Ash Brandon]

And that. And that's not like a moral failure. Like, yeah, you needed it. And in some households, maybe that's not the pain point. Right. Maybe there's two caregivers around during dinner time or what have you, and the pain point is somewhere else. The pain point is when you're trying to put a sibling down or feed a baby or whatever. But that's why I think it's so important at the end of the book, I think with that framework is to think about what is the need. Because a need is going to change. So we don't need to think like, oh, we have to pick one set of rules for screen time that have to just, like, be the same forever and has to work forever because your family is going to change. Things are going to change. It might be, like, for a season, for years. Like, we're at a point where you mentioned with, you know, kids are getting old enough to help with dinner or do something else during dinner, we're kind of reaching that point. And if we wanted to, we could say, hey, why don't we have screen time after dinner? And then we could all be involved if we want to. And if that works for us, great. But in the meantime, if we, like, if we keep having screen time before dinner so one of us can be fully focused on making a meal.

[Parent sharing personal experience]

Well, if.

[Ash Brandon]

Then we're all sitting down and we're all present and we're eating a more nutritionally dense meal, that wouldn't have been possible. If we have a kid running around underfoot because we're trying not to use a screen, we're all better off because of that. And we're on, like, then the adults are better regulated. We've had time to decompress. Like, that is a benefit. And frankly, that also, like, if that's sustainable, right? Like, if my kid takes from that. That they got some TV time or some video game time while parents made dinner, like, I'm fine with that being a thing that they associate because. Because it fits into the rest of our lives, and it's something that they can rely on. And also, as you said, it was. It's something that. That the adult can rely on and know that this is predictable. So it doesn't feel like it's a huge, big deal. It's not being elevated and put on a platter. It's just part of our lives, like, other parts of our lives.

[Randy Rubenstein]

No, I love that. And I love the way you teach. And y' all are going to have to read the book, because the way you really lay out, I mean, I talk about helping kids to develop agency and taking scarcity out of it. I mean, I teach this a lot of times with homework. When it comes to homework or, you know, or. How do you. How do you get your kids to read? I mean, you're an educator, so I'll tell you, I. I completely badmouth reading logs. Oh, I think they are.

[Ash Brandon]

I'm probably with you on that one.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah. I think they sabotage. I think they make this joy, this. This pleasure of reading into a chore. And it's like.

[Ash Brandon]

Yeah, it does.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yes.

[Ash Brandon]

It's. Once again, it's that extrinsic motivation thing. There's so much extrinsic motivation and education, and it's like, this is not going to make someone want to do the thing.

[Randy Rubenstein]

It does the opposite. It does the opposite. I mean, it does the opposite. So, you know, I. And. And so I really talk a lot about helping kids to develop agency. And I loved the way you laid it out. It was just so real life about homework and screen time and predictability and sort of making it more neutral, just like you would with food. Like, I provide the food, and then it's your job to eat it or not to eat it. But the minute we start, we. We are more invested than our child is. It becomes a power struggle, and it gets all wonky, you know? So I love. I love how you taught that in the book.

[Ash Brandon]

Yes. Well, thank you. And, yeah, it's funny because there is one activity in my child's life that I really do have to, like, say, like, no, we cannot do that right now. Like, I do have to kind of police it, and it's reading. And most people would hear that and go like, oh, lucky you. Right. Feel this sort of, like, envy.

[Randy Rubenstein]

No. My daughter was like, that, too. Same. Yeah, but.

[Ash Brandon]

But again, that's like the moral hierarchy, right? Where it's like. But the point there is that most people have an activity that is preferable to other things. And so if one kid, it's an iPad, and my kid it's a book, my kid isn't better because they're trying to read constantly than the kid who wants to, you know, be on the iPad constantly. My kid isn't, like, morally superior with their interest, but it's. It's the same investigation of, like, why is it my kid wants to eat Read constantly. Why is it my kid wants to read at the dinner table? Is it because they don't want to engage in conversation? Is it because they don't know how? Is it because it's easier for them to distract while they eat? That's all really helpful information, right? That tells me the skill we need to work on. That tells me, like, so interesting. Where else we can kind of build that in. And again, that's why I think the moral neutrality is so important, because if that kid were on an iPad, I think many people and parts of. Definitely part of me would blame the iPad, right? Like, it's the iPad's fault, of course. They're just not paying any attention. But if it's a book, we'd be like, isn't that so cute? They just love their book so much. And that's like, well, if both of those are distracting from listening to your body and telling. If you're full and listening to other people talk, one of those is not better than the other.

[Randy Rubenstein]

That's right. No, that's so. It's such a good point. And, I mean, my daughter will joke. She's like, yeah, I love when my kids use the term punish, because I never, ever said, you're punished. Like, that just wasn't even in our vocabulary. They're like, yeah. Avery's like, I always joke, yeah, my mom used to punish me by taking away my books. I'm like, I. Yeah, I didn't punish you. And that's just not even true. She's like, oh, I remember.

[Ash Brandon]

And.

[Randy Rubenstein]

But the. The. It was. It's like people like, oh, she reads too much. But I knew it was a form of distraction. I knew it was a way that she was checking out. I knew that was avoiding something else. You know, when she went into her room after a long day of school, and it wasn't just, like, an hour to decompress, it was like, you know, three hours later, I found her in her bed. Still reading. I'm like, this is the extreme. There's something to deal with. So I'm with you on that. I love it. Yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

Right?

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah, yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

There's another thing that I was going to say, but I can't remember what it was.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah, no, I mean, and you know, I also think you're, you're so attuned to the topic. And I mean, I, I love people who are professionals who actually walk their talk. And I can tell that this is like the fact that you even are like, okay, why is he read or what? You know, why is my child reading at the table? And what are they avoiding? What could be the reasons? Like, my, my oldest son, he went through a period where he was having a hard time socializing and having an appetite. Right. And so because socializing and making conversation can sometimes take so much of his bandwidth that like, after a long, like, you know, because like when they got to college and they go out and they go out in groups and they're going out at like 8 and 9 o' clock to eat and then they're going out, do. He was like, a lot of times I'll eat before I go out because it just is a lot for me to be able, like I just lose my appetite, you know, and so. And he was one of those people that was constantly like trying to keep weight on himself. I know it's like hard to relate to that. But he really want, he didn't want to skip a meal, he didn't want to skip dinner. And he was like, so I just eat before I go out with friends because that way I know I will have already eaten. The pressure's off if I don't feel, if I just feel like socializing and not eating, it's not a big deal. So I would never have known that. I'm not wired in that way. But this so interesting to think of a little kid. I mean, I'm sure there's a lot of people listening. And if you have a kid that wants to be on a screen or wants to be reading a book while they're eating dinner, it could be some kind of coping mechanism for the. This. It takes a lot for me to sit and to like socialize at the end of a long day, you know. Yeah, yeah.

[Ash Brandon]

And that's. And again, like your child discovering that and figuring that out and then figuring out ways to accommodate that. Right. It's not like he's saying, I'm not going to see friends. Right. Like, he's not limiting himself. He's Finding ways to accommodate. And that is sustainable, right? So how can think if, if it's pointing towards something that maybe we want to get curious about, if, if it leads to a way of figuring out how to manage that thing or accommodate that thing or adjust, then that's a, that's a skill that our kids can take with them. And it's funny. I joke a lot. Well, not even joke. I say a lot that you know, especially for neurodivergent kids. A lot of them thrive in video game environments. And video game environments are highly, highly, highly accommodated environments. If, if you think about like, if I forget, like, oh, how do I jump? I can hit pause, I can go to a menu. It will show me, it will remind me of my available information. I can't remember where I'm supposed to be going. I know exactly where the map is. It will tell me where I'm going. I can get a reminder of objectives, I can review my information. If I'm trying to do something really big, often it will like chunk it down into smaller tasks. Like you're trying to free the princess, first you have to go to this world, right? And if we think about like educational environments, that's a lot of the common accommodations that we often seek for neuro divergent children is things like chunking, breaking down big tasks, checklists, frequent check ins, like reminders of like information, like notes provided notes. And in video games those things are just built in. They're like a universal accommodation that's just built into good game design. Right? But in a lot of the rest of the world those things are harder to get. Not because they're not valuable, but because they're just not as baked in. And so if we see our kid, you know, my kid can never remember where their socks are, but they remember the name of every Pokemon or whatever. Again, when we're neutral, we can look at that and go, okay, what is it about this that is helping them thrive in this environment? And we can even ask them like, hey, if you don't know what to do, what do you do? How do you get information in this game? I can't remember what to do, what should I do? And if they know or they tell us, we can ask, like, is that helpful? Do you like it? Like finding information that way and that might tell us something that we could bring into the rest of their lives. And then again we're kind of neutralizing it and showing them, hey, this thing that helps you in video games can help you in the rest of your life. That doesn't mean I'm saying video games are better. It's saying I can learn how to accommodate to help my life. Like your son was doing.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Useful. It's such a useful. It's like. It's like learning through metaphor.

[Ash Brandon]

Right?

[Randy Rubenstein]

And so how is this like that? And if we. If we take the judgment out of it and it's. There's just useful information here, you know, and if you bring that neutrality in, and I think it can be so hard for so many of us to. To utilize all this valuable information and ways to help our kids to develop skills outside of the video game in real life. If we can stop, you know, making so many moral judgments about the video games, there's all this useful information. I also think it's interesting that here you are, the. What. What are you known as? The.

[Ash Brandon]

The gamer educator.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah, the gamer educator. Okay. Here you are, and you're writing this book that's so rooted in realism and. And yet you have a kid that wants to read too much actual physical books. Not. Not even on a Kindle.

[Ash Brandon]

Well, it depends. They read a lot of. They read a lot of, like, digital graphic novels on an iPad because they don't look good on an E reader. And I get it. I wouldn't want to read a graphic novel on an E reader either.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now I was envisioning your kid with like, an old school book, and I'm like, oh, he said, so the kid with the green light is over here reading. Over. Over reading. I think that's pretty ironic. Well, this has been a fantastic conversation. Thank you so much for being here and for the work that you do. It's so important and helpful for all of us.

[Ash Brandon]

Thank you so much for having me. It was such a wonderful conversation.

[Randy Rubenstein]

Loved it. Okay, thanks everyone for listening. Have a great week. Bye for now. Thanks for listening today, guys. I hope you picked up some tips, tools, maybe some baby steps for creating more balance and boundaries in your life. And I just wanted to let you know if you want to continue moving the needle forward in creating this for yourself, having a happier household, I want you to go to my website and check out mastermindparenting.com we have three beginning programs, and if you need some accountability and more support, then please look for the one that would be a good fit for you. And as always, we're on all the social channels under Mastermind Parenting. On Instagram, it's mastermindparenting. And you know, periodically I do pop up on different Instagram Live space lives where I give you teaching and coaching and I love engaging with you live to help you help your strong willed kids so that they can feel better. Because when they feel better, they do better. And I love love love getting to know you guys. So thanks for listening. If you like this podcast, please don't forget to subscribe, rate and review. Super super appreciative.