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- [00:00]
Mickey Jo Theater
Oh, my God. Hey, Kevin McHale.
- [00:02]
Kevin McHale
Hey. How's it going?
- [00:03]
Mickey Jo Theater
It's going very well. I'm very excited. I've been listening to the show again on the way here because it's one of my lesser known Sondhomb. I feel like it's one of everyone's lesser known Sondheims. We're doing some niche musical theater here.
- [00:14]
Kevin McHale
Yeah, I am. I didn't know about the frogs before this, and I think a lot of people who will be coming have never seen or maybe heard of the frogs. And so it's a big incentive to do this show is to get to expose people to more Sondheim. You know, there's only so much Sondheim. So if there's an opportunity to do some Sondheim that isn't done very often, then we should.
- [00:37]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah. And a role that hasn't been played that many times. I mean, I think it was Roger Bart on Broadway. And then I was looking into this because it was the Yale production originally that was famous for having, like, Meryl Streep and Sigourney Weaver as frogs in the ensemble. Do you know who played your role?
- [00:53]
Kevin McHale
I don't.
- [00:54]
Mickey Jo Theater
I had to do some digging, and it was an actor named Michael Vale, I think was his name, who was most famous for becoming a beloved donut mascot through, like, the 70s through the 90s. But, like, I think it was, like, Dunkin Donuts commercials. But, like, really, like, seriously beloved.
- [01:13]
Kevin McHale
So, Duncan, if you're looking for a new mascot or an ambassador, I love donuts.
- [01:21]
Mickey Jo Theater
Anyway, I'm very excited because I get to do something for the next few minutes that I haven't done since I was a teenager, which is talk a lot about Sondheim and a little bit about Glee at the same time. And the crossover. Because I think the very first Sondheim song I ever heard in my life, if I really think about it, was probably Comedy Tonight from Forum, because they did it on the Muppet Show. And then, like, Bernadette Peters came on, and I was like, this seems like it's from something else. And then next it would have been years later when Chris did Rose's Turn. I think it's probably the first, like, Glee Sondheim moment we had. Do you remember my question? Is your first experience your first discovery of Sondheim?
- [02:02]
Kevin McHale
Oh, my gosh. I don't know what my first moment was. I unfortunately learned a lot during Glee. Cause I was not from the musical theater world. So, like, Rose's Turn. That was the first time I'd ever heard. That was when Chris did it. Probably every Sondheim song we did on that show. No, that's not true. Not every Sondheim. But a lot of it I learned during Glee, which is embarrassing. I'm trying to think of what I would have seen as a kid.
- [02:33]
Mickey Jo Theater
Oh, had you ever seen the film the Birdcage with Nathan Lane, Robin Williams? Yes. So a lot of the music in that, like when Nathan Lane does the little snippet of a cabaret number, it's a cut song from Follies. And when they sing, when Christine Baranski and Robin Williams sing in her office, they're doing the cut opening from Forum. For whatever reason. Just Sondheim's songs.
- [02:54]
Kevin McHale
Gay movie. Gay movie. Ad in Sondheim. You have to.
- [02:58]
Mickey Jo Theater
It's like how every title of a Desperate Housewives episode is a different Stephen Sondheim song.
- [03:02]
Kevin McHale
Exactly.
- [03:03]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah. Are there any songs from the Frogs, having now been in rehearsals for the show, that you think we could have done this on Glee? Where was the Glee X Frogs collaboration?
- [03:13]
Kevin McHale
Oh, definitely. I mean, you could have done Shaw. Dance to Shaw. There's education. You're in a school. You could have done that. Ariadne's a beautiful song. There's absolutely some way somebody could have done a ballad. Yeah, we did that a lot. I don't know if the Frogs number itself could have fit in in any capacity. I think doing a full episode about the Frogs would have been great.
- [03:39]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah.
- [03:39]
Kevin McHale
We only did Grease. We did west side Story. We did Rocky Horror. I think the Frogs would have been appropriate to do for a high school production as well. We could have fit that in.
- [03:51]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah. You had a swimming pool set that you famously got very involved in.
- [03:55]
Kevin McHale
Exactly. We had a lot to work with. You know, we built a whole set for Rocky Horror with working elevators, so we could have figured something out.
- [04:03]
Mickey Jo Theater
A functional elevator on that side.
- [04:05]
Kevin McHale
Yeah. It makes no sense.
- [04:08]
Mickey Jo Theater
Used exactly one time.
- [04:10]
Kevin McHale
Yeah. You know, like, Artie couldn't get the right sort of school bus to take him to any competition, but yet we could build a working elevator as a prop.
- [04:20]
Mickey Jo Theater
Don't question it. Just don't. Don't begin to question.
- [04:23]
Kevin McHale
Like, Rose's Turn. Are you kidding me? Oh, yeah. His name. Like, get out of here. Like, I don't. I don't know where the disparity in the allotment of funds was going to in that school, but it was going to arts.
- [04:36]
Mickey Jo Theater
A very good point. A very good point. Now, I'm curious about your excitement for this project and sort of how this Came to you because when the announcement came through, it was like, wow, big surprise. But also it all kind of makes sense in a strange, curious, campy sort of a way.
- [04:53]
Kevin McHale
Yeah, I think to me it makes a bit of sense because one, it's getting to do Sondheim. Like I said, that's not normally done. Working with Georgie, the director, was the biggest reason to do it. I met her over Zoom over a year ago and ended that conversation basically with, I will do anything you want to do. She's brilliant and just has great taste and I think a great vision for this and really loves Sondheim and I think exposing audiences to lesser known Sondheim. And also I just love London. So, you know, any excuse to be here and get out of the US right now, I didn't know how much I would need that back when I said yes to this. And getting to do theater here, I think the way people, I think interact with theater here and view theater here is so different than in the US and it's such a vibrant community, not just for the people who are involved in it, but for audiences. And it is like that in New York, but I also think, I don't know, here it's more accessible in a lot of ways. And getting to do it in a theater like Southwark Playhouse, where we are, you know, this far from the audience or even closer, also is very, very exciting to me. So all those things combined made for some sort of sense in my mind. And here I am. Yeah.
- [06:15]
Mickey Jo Theater
This is your London stage debut. This is your theatrical debut here. That's also the best I've ever heard any American accent say the word Southwark. That was a really good job. Was there a learning curve?
- [06:24]
Kevin McHale
It's taking some trial and error, I think. First day it was here, I was like, okay, how do I do it? Because I'm not saying this word how it's written on paper, because I know that's not correct. And then I said it with like an F. Like it was Suffolk one too many times. People were like, oh, that's where you're doing it. And I was like, no, just how you described that. That's not where I'm doing it. So I then I had some friends who say it, like, with like, sufficient. I'm like, I don't like. That's just your accent. I can't get away with it. So a lot of trial and error. Yeah, yeah. Embarrassing myself. Yeah.
- [06:56]
Mickey Jo Theater
I don't think. I'm not sure. Suffolk, I mean, lovely place. I'm not sure they're ready for this production of the Frogs.
- [07:01]
Kevin McHale
Yeah, very different because I told somebody that, like, oh, that's where I'm from. I'm like, oh, no, that's not where it is. So sorry.
- [07:07]
Mickey Jo Theater
And it's a brilliant cast that you're working with here in this show. Very, very exciting. And you're playing Xanthius. Do you want to tell us in your own words, rather you than me, a little about this character and sort of about the show as well. If people are wondering what on earth this is.
- [07:25]
Kevin McHale
The show is about Greek God Dionysus going down to the underworld to bring back a great writer. An attempt to save humanity. Art can sort of save us all, that sort of thing, which I think us who love entertainment and different mediums of art appreciate, aspire to. I play Xanthius, who is Dionysus, sidekick, sort of the, I would say the voice of reason, the voice of the audience. Dionysus has a lot of whimsical, big, lofty ideas. You know, he's a Greek God, so speaks very poetically and all of that. And Xanthius is sort of his, let's say, servant, and does not understand why we are doing any of this. I think giving voice to a large swath of the population who maybe doesn't pay attention to daily politics or things going on socially and was like, everything will be fine. And it's a fun role. It's crazy. The show is crazy and we get to really lean into that. And there's also some things, a debate between Shakespeare and Shaw, two of the greatest writers you know, around, and, you know, things that happen down in Hades that we could get. Get to do with Sondheim music. So there's a bit of everything. It's really, really funny. Nathan Lane rewrote it in the early 2000s and it's just sort of punchline after punchline. And then you get like a really beautifully written, spirited debate amongst writers and the importance of writing and poetry and what it means to people and why people need that in art to communicate certain things, to empathize and to see the world in different ways. And somehow that's all fit in into this show. And there's a nine minute Frogs number, so do it that way you will.
- [09:19]
Mickey Jo Theater
Meaningful and absurd all mixed in together.
- [09:22]
Kevin McHale
Yeah, I think it's a really good balance because I don't think it's. It's not too much of one thing. There's Sondheim references, there's meta things going on, there's classic Greek Comedy of it all and Sondheim music and dancing frogs and then meaningful things happening and it all somehow works. And I'm not sure why. Hopefully you agree that it works. Hopefully people that come see it. But I'm enjoying it, like. And I feel like I get to watch so much of it from my perspective, Xanthius perspective. And there's so many talented actors involved in dancing and singing their faces off.
- [10:03]
Mickey Jo Theater
On the subject of people needing art like this, I think I read when Nathan Lane, because he discovered it decades before when he reworked it and brought it to Broadway in the early 2000s, it was sort of in response to the mood of the Nation post 2001 and feeling as though it was timely and there was this need for it and was sort of increasingly in a place like that again in the US but all over the world and on so many levels. What do you think about that and about the capacity of great, meaningful and nonsensical theater to kind of revitalize us?
- [10:41]
Kevin McHale
Yeah, unfortunately, I think we do need this. Even for me, like, being in rehearsal and hearing this dialogue said out loud and portrayed by these great actors every day, it's. There's been a new line that has sort of jumped out to me, like, oh, my God, needed to hear that. Because I think when the world, for me, in the US after the last presidential election, when it feels like it is so hard to have any sort of. It's so hard to figure out, like, what you can do to impact or to have. Do some good in the world when it all feels so insurmountable. And I know here is not that far off from what's going on in the US And I think for me, it's been like the little acts of being with your friend groups, your community, and sort of acting out locally. Because when things are so big that it's like, oh, we just have to start small and, like, find connection and start talking to people, and that's how you slowly start to make the difference again that we need to make. And I think art is the exact same thing. And I think shows like this do that. And, you know, it's not even. It's not the most gigantic theater that we're playing in, but being able to hopefully impact even a couple people every single night, because you go and have a great time and laugh, don't take it seriously, fully works for that. It's a great time. But also if you leave at the end of the night feeling invigorated and revitalized after sort of the Hard things that have been happening socially and politically and feeling motivated, because I think for me it was like, how do you get motivated when everything just seems like it's chipping away at any progress we've made over the past couple of decades. But I think the words and the message of the show gives you the autonomy over our own message and gives you the hope that we can personally make a difference every single day and that it does take us, but it doesn't have to be some big thing like I'm personally going to save the world, because nobody can do that but us with each other and keeping each other propped up is how we do it. And the show does, I think, a really eloquent job of saying that without being too preachy.
- [13:16]
Mickey Jo Theater
I'm feeling inspired just by this conversation. That was beautiful. Not to dwell too much in the political realm, but this is your second stage role in the last year. Right. And you did 25th annual Putnam County Spelling Bee at the Kennedy Center.
- [13:31]
Kevin McHale
Right.
- [13:31]
Mickey Jo Theater
But before all of this pre.
- [13:34]
Kevin McHale
The horribleness, and if people don't know, the Kennedy center, which is incredible productions, has done incredible productions and Spelling Bee was part of this great partnership bringing shows, productions, you know, put together in New York down to the Kennedy center several times a year by a great producer named Jeffrey Fenn. And since Trump has elected, he has basically put himself in charge of the Kennedy center and curating what's done there and has put in just big donors in charge of that instead of people who have been there for decades who have been doing really, who love theater. Absolutely love it. It's such a vibrant place to be at and most of them don't work there anymore, which is really sad. And I feel very fortunate and lucky to have been able to do that show, which means so much to me. I'm a huge fan of that show before all of this horribleness started happening there. I feel really, really bad for a lot of the people who have spent so much of their lives putting in time there and making it what it was, it is not going to be that now. But again, it's like we just, we snuck in, we did it in October, and then he got elected a month later.
- [14:54]
Mickey Jo Theater
If that one ever was to have a future life, if that was ever to come to New York, if rumors are to be believed, is that a role that you would go back to and do again?
- [15:04]
Kevin McHale
Yeah, I loved doing that. I loved that production of it. I loved doing it with that cast. If there's ever an opportunity to do it again, especially in New York. Yeah. That's an immediate yes for me. Love it. It's such a fun show to do. And also I think it's a big show that people do in America in high schools or in college. Like when we were doing it, we ran into so many kids who were doing it at their universities as we were doing it. And that is just that you can feel that in an audience's reaction. And everybody has their interpretation of the roles you've done. Like, oh, I played this role. Georgia, our director, did it growing up as well, which is amazing. And so I love that about that show that it is so approachable and so many people have done it and it's. It's fun. I love getting to make people laugh. And when the show is written in that way like this, where you don't have to do that much, it's funny and great and to be on the receiving end of that is very, very lucky for me.
- [16:02]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah, we're kind of living through a golden era of the Glee alumni doing a lot of exciting things on Broadway and in theatre alumni, if you will. If that works. I think it does whatsoever. Yeah. Both in performing and in producing roles as well. And people are winning Tonys and people are nominated for Tonys. This year you've got Darren and Jonathan going head to head. How many of the various shows we've had over the last few years have you had the chance to go and see your former co stars in?
- [16:30]
Kevin McHale
Oh, not enough. Not enough. I'm actually trying to go see Darren when we're done with this. I need to go see maybe Happy and Dan. It's desperately. I know. I want to see it so badly. I saw Alex and Shucked which was just dumb. That show was so good. Go see it here in the park. One of my biggest regrets in life is not seeing Amber in Dreamgirls. I messed that up. Sorry, Amber. And she doesn't let me forget it.
- [17:00]
Mickey Jo Theater
I think she could still do it. There is no reason she couldn't do it again.
- [17:03]
Kevin McHale
No, not at all. Anybody who can do that role, I don't know how you do that. That's has to be one of the toughest roles ever written.
- [17:11]
Mickey Jo Theater
Jennifer Holiday kept doing it for like 40 years. Amber has. Amber has time. There's time.
- [17:16]
Kevin McHale
Yeah. She could still do it. I want her desperately to do it. On Broadway. I saw Jenna in Waitress. I didn't see. I didn't get a chance to see Leah and Funny Girl. Un Glee related. But I've known Nicole Scherzinger for a Long time. And I haven't seen her in Sunset Boulevard.
- [17:31]
Mickey Jo Theater
Oh, my God.
- [17:32]
Kevin McHale
Terrible, terrible.
- [17:34]
Mickey Jo Theater
I mean, a handful of these, thankfully, have been recorded for posterity. Might be recorded for posterity if other rumors are to be believed. But, no, you absolutely have to. How long is this running? Until Suffolk Playhouse?
- [17:48]
Kevin McHale
We're running through the end of June. Okay, so you have the entire month of June to come see us. And then I'll scurry off and see some shows in New York.
- [17:56]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah, you have, like, at least three weeks to go see Nicole and Sunset Boulevard. I'm telling you, that's a high priority. And, you know, tickets will be wildly expensive at that point, but that's what you get, frankly, for leaving it this way.
- [18:06]
Kevin McHale
Yeah, that's fine. I don't care. I need to see it for myself. I need to see her do that. And I've obviously heard nothing but incredible, incredible things. I'm also just glad that people. Like, I've known she could sing like that since I was 15, but people don't know that. And she's a beast. And she's a theater nerd and loves musical theater, and so I'm very, very, very happy for her.
- [18:34]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah. Yeah. It's been joyous watching her. Like, the fact that she does all of the backstage meet and greets every time someone goes to see the show and she takes a photo with them. The fact that she does it with all the blood down her face, and she's doing that at the stage door.
- [18:46]
Kevin McHale
And she is theatrical, you know, like, she's always been theatrical. Like, this is perfect for her. And I think it's a stretch for people to imagine, like, oh, Pussycat doll doing this. This is who she's always been. She can do all these things, you know, you just have to fit in a little box.
- [19:02]
Mickey Jo Theater
It's the versatility. But people might say the same thing about Glee and Sondheim Essen. You're bringing those two worlds together as well.
- [19:09]
Kevin McHale
Yeah. Glee is the Nicole Scherzinger of tv.
- [19:11]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah.
- [19:14]
Kevin McHale
That's what people have always said. And I've always said that.
- [19:17]
Mickey Jo Theater
You know, on the subject then, of so many of you bringing talent to Broadway, have you daydreamed at all about what the Broadway show might be that takes Kevin McHale to Broadway for a Broadway debut?
- [19:32]
Kevin McHale
I don't know what it would be, to be honest. This has all been so sort of unexpected for me, and I've really enjoyed doing. There's some sort of, I think through line between spelling bee and frogs. There's like a Commonality and the sense of humor in it, the wackiness of it. And I've really enjoyed doing that. And I also think because the been done, like, this isn't West End Spelling Bee, was not Broadway. And there's something about, for me, at least in so far, doing these shows that are a little bit more specific and maybe aren't playing to those crowds. So I don't even know. Like, I feel like, oh, maybe like an off Broadway thing. Like, I want to do Little Shop. Like, that would be fun. So I don't even know. Also, Darren is like my. Basically my manager when it comes to Jacob, so he's been trying to get me to do maybe Happy Ending. So I'm like, sure, yeah, yeah. I'll do maybe Happy Ending when you're done. Great.
- [20:28]
Mickey Jo Theater
You'd be fantastic in Little Shop. That's a great piece of casting. Who's your Audrey gonna be if you go do Little Shop?
- [20:33]
Kevin McHale
Jenna and I want to do it together.
- [20:35]
Mickey Jo Theater
I mean, perfect. Yeah, yeah.
- [20:36]
Kevin McHale
Just put us in things together. We'll. Yeah.
- [20:40]
Mickey Jo Theater
Can Amber come and sing the Plant?
- [20:41]
Kevin McHale
Oh, my God. She did it in la, which was wild to be sitting in the audience, and then you just hear Amber coming through. The PA was crazy. But Amber, whatever she wants to do, you know, like, put her in Little Shop, I'll do Little Shop with her. We'll do it with me and all the Glee girls. We'll just go through.
- [21:04]
Mickey Jo Theater
There's some commonality, weirdly, between hearing Amber's voice and seeing Plant and her success on the Masked Singer. I think it's sort of the same where it's just such an unmistakable, like, oh, yeah, that's. That's her voice.
- [21:18]
Kevin McHale
Exactly. Amber, the queen of winning reality shows. She won Dancing with the Stars during Glee.
- [21:25]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah.
- [21:25]
Kevin McHale
And then one masked Singer.
- [21:27]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah.
- [21:27]
Kevin McHale
And one in Olivier, which is obviously not a reality show, but when she's doing something, she wins. Yeah. Because she is the voice of a generation. I'm trying to not do any more reality shows.
- [21:38]
Mickey Jo Theater
Sure.
- [21:41]
Kevin McHale
But I like to do fun things.
- [21:43]
Mickey Jo Theater
You're a serious London actor now. You're doing Sondheim here at Southwick Playhouse.
- [21:48]
Kevin McHale
It's fun to say I'm a serious Sondheim actor when this show is anything but.
- [21:55]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah. Yeah. If I know anything about a Georgie Rankin production as well, I'm thinking this is gonna be vibrant, this is gonna be queer. Not necessarily overtly, but definitely kind of like talking about a lot of those ideas, but just sort of joyous as well, is what I'm looking Forward to about this.
- [22:14]
Kevin McHale
Hopefully that is exactly correct. You are nailing it 100%. It is joyous. It is queer. And I think she just. Her love for Sondheim and understanding, I think, of Sondheim has really made all of us better and the show better for it. And I just think her work needs to be seen by everybody. And so I hope this is a vehicle for her to be seen more and more and for her to continue to go just do great things.
- [22:47]
Mickey Jo Theater
Is it charming to be doing this while sometimes final of a musical here we are simultaneously playing over at the National Theatre? Or is there some unspoken Sondheim rivalry happening across the river?
- [22:59]
Kevin McHale
Oh, yeah. Jesse and I will not speak to each other while this is happening. Absolutely hate all of those untalented people.
- [23:06]
Mickey Jo Theater
And he was in spelling BE as well. He was original cast spelling be, and.
- [23:09]
Kevin McHale
He came and saw us. So I went and saw him the other night, and here we are. And I've never seen him on stage before. And so that was nice. It was nice to be able to after he came to D.C. to see us, which was so terrifying. Very terrify. At least I was not playing his part.
- [23:26]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah.
- [23:29]
Kevin McHale
There'S absolutely no rivalry. And it was really fascinating to see, you know, one of Sondheim's earliest works and then seeing his last work, and there's still so much experimenting and how daring he is. It was. And there's an absolute through line, I think, between our two shows in terms of, like, the message. I think a lot of his shows have about, like, the human condition and challenging our complacencies and things like that. And both shows explore that in very different ways. But I think that's what's so wonderful about Sondheim is that obviously, like, the music is great and it's challenging and really satisfying to listen to and to sing. But also just the. Because of that, like, the rhythm and the syncopation with the message of the stories that he's telling is fascinating. And I can't believe these shows are decades and decades apart because they feel. They feel related. I know may sound dumb. Obviously it's the same person who did it, but he did it at two.
- [24:31]
Mickey Jo Theater
Very true points in his life, even within. I mean, there's such variety in his work. But no, there is a commonality between these and the themes they're talking about and the way that they do it as well.
- [24:42]
Kevin McHale
Yeah.
- [24:42]
Mickey Jo Theater
Yeah.
- [24:42]
Kevin McHale
They're very different shows. And I was trying to tell Jesse that. I'm like, look, if you come to the show, I've never seen a stage look more expensive than your show.
- [24:54]
Mickey Jo Theater
You don't have an entire box set rolling forwards at Celtic Playhouse.
- [24:58]
Kevin McHale
Water. There's fire. There's a dining room that you see for a couple seconds. This is not that.
- [25:06]
Mickey Jo Theater
If there's fire on stage, audiences are encouraged. Something has gone wrong.
- [25:10]
Kevin McHale
Yeah. To find your nearest exit safely. Yeah. But it's still Sondheim. And it's made me more excited to, like, when you're in that world. And I think a lot of Sondheim fans will hopefully be coming to see the show where they will understand it deeply. And I'm excited for that. I was excited seeing it in rehearsal. Cause I'm like, how is Georgie gonna do this? It's a wacky show on paper, and it's wacky when it's up. But it makes a lot more sense, obviously. And hearing it done by, I think some of the. The incredible actors that are in the show really just breathes new life into it. And I'm very excited to have people see it.
- [25:49]
Mickey Jo Theater
I am very excited to come and watch. The show is running here at Southwark Playhouse Burgh until the end of June. And it's sometimes the Frogs. Thank you so much for taking the time to chat to me. I'm really, really thrilled about the show. For 10 more seconds, I'm Mickey Jo Theater. Oh, my God. Hey, thanks for watching. Have a stagey day. Subscribe.