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Timothée Chalamet is wrong about Opera and Ballet | the problem behind his controversial comments...
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- [00:00]
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- [01:29]
Mickey Jo
I'm about to say something which cinema buffs and bisexual women have been saying for years now. Could we please have a 30 minute conversation about Timothee Chalamet? Yes, the rising Hollywood star is making headlines during his Academy Awards campaign trail, but not necessarily for the right reasons. Because it would appear as though during a conversation with Matthew McConaughey about cinema, he clumsily launched an unprovoked attack against ballet and opera. And you better believe that both of those worlds have been quick to respond. And honestly, if you think that ballerinas or opera singers were prepared at all times for any kind of a confrontation, I'm not sure you've spent a lot of time in either of those worlds. You really want to get into a fight with someone who permanently has all of their hair tied out of their face and carries the majority of their strength in their legs? You want to know what a grand jete to the head feels like? Not great. Anyway, there is plenty here for us to discuss from a theatrical perspective. And if this story has brought you to my theatre themed YouTube channel or podcast platform for the very first time, let me quickly introduce myself. Oh my God. Hey. Welcome to my theatre themed YouTube channel. My name is Mickey Jo and I'm obsessed with all things theatre. I'm a theatre critic, content creator, and pundit here on social media. And I first became aware of this statement from Timothe Chalamet within the last 24 hours. I read it, thought it was foolish, and instantly moved on. I then saw that it was generating so much conversation, and as we were getting back from the theater this evening, which obviously, other than sitting in front of this camera right here as my other natural habit, my fiance Erin suggested to me that I should sit here and make a video about it. And I wasn't sure there would necessarily be that much mileage in the conversation. But then we spent the entire walk back from the train station talking about it on so many different fronts, and I realized that this is actually an important thing to talk about and for reasons that go far beyond Mr. Chalamet himself. So I want to have this conversation today in two parts. We're going to talk about why what he said doesn't actually make an awful lot of sense, considering who he is and who he has been and the origins of his career, but also moving past, you know, the slap on the wrist that he is currently getting from various different institutions and professionals. I want to talk about what this kind of a clumsy statement tells us about the way in which these art forms are perceived in mainstream culture. Of course, this is all just my perspective, and for this to be a thorough conversation, I also need to hear yours. If you have thoughts about this, let us all know what they are in the comments section down below. Let us begin by recapping the battle between Academy Award nominee Timothee Chalamet and ballet and opera. Okay, so let's talk about the context in which these comments were made. This was during a live conversation with Matthew McConaughey, hosted, I believe, by Variety and taking place amidst voting for the Academy Awards, with events and appearances like these all being in some way or another part of the PR campaign trail. Now, as part of this conversation, from what I can tell, they began to discuss audience appetites for storytelling on screen and the pace of those stories and the tone of those stories, and the difference between serious films and more entertainment driven accessible ones, and audience appetites for watching something on Netflix versus going to see something at a cinema going to a movie theater of this Chalamet said, I'm really right in the middle, Matthew. I admire people and I've done it myself who go on a talk show and say, hey, we've got to keep movie theaters alive. We've got to keep this genre alive. And another part of me feels like if people want to see it, like Barbie, like Oppenheimer, they're going to go see it and go out of their way to be loud and proud about it, which is actually, and I know we haven't even reached the meat of this conversation yet, a really interesting example to use because I think already he's on quite shaky ground here, because to use Barbenheimer as an example of a time when people wanted to go to the cinema, there was nothing about those films inherently that made audiences en masse, say, oh well, Barbie must be seen in cinema, it must be seen in movie theaters to be truly enjoyed. It was the hype and the sort of memeification of this bizarre tonally opposite double bill that had people wanting to go and do it. Are you going to go and do the Barbenheimer? Are you going to go and watch both? Because it became a thing, people then participated because it became a cultural conversation, which is, I think, probably the best way to get people back into movie theaters. To suggest that that was driven by the appeal of those films and not by the conversation which surrounded them. And this notion of moviegoing in an actual building designed for that, once again becoming this cool, exciting, trendy thing, I think is a little short sighted. But we're gonna carry on because it does get worse. Here it comes. I don't want to be working in ballet or opera where it's like, hey, keep this thing alive. Even though no one cares about this anymore. And having realized the incendiary statement he just made, he goes on to say, all respect to the ballet and opera people out there, I just lost 14 cents in viewership. I'm taking shots for no reason. And before we even discuss what it is he may have meant by this and the impact of what he has said here and the way that it's been received, I think he also misspoke in as much as he didn't really mean to say, I don't want to go and work in ballet or opera, because a lot of the immediate responses have been like, well, you can't even if you wanted to, because he hasn't pursued years and years of rigorous training. And while we see a lot of Hollywood screen actors transitioning into work on stage, which Mr. Chalamet actually has done in the past. We don't see them suddenly moving sideways into ballet or opera, because you really have to commit to those particular vocations solidly and consistently and for a considerable amount of time. What he perhaps meant to say, instead of implying that it would be possible for him to go and work in either of those disciplines, is, I'm glad not to be an actor working in ballet or in opera. And, of course, even that statement is problematic in its own ways. And there are so many reasons as to why it doesn't make sense for him to have said this and taken this unnecessarily clumsy swipe, one of which is that both his sister and mother have had ballet training. His mother has been a stage actress, and don't ask me how I know this, continues to see Broadway shows incredibly frequently. Very involved theatre person who I have sat next to in a Broadway house before. And while the Broadway play or the Broadway musical is not the same thing as opera or ballet, and he has cited those as quite specific subsections of the performing arts, I do believe that he has a respect and fondness for. For theatre, not only having done a little bit of Off Broadway himself in years past, but also because of, you know, growing up in Manhattan. I wonder how much of this feels a little bit like somebody who was raised on the east coast and then has subsequently spent a large portion of their life on the West. Which isn't to say that there aren't brilliant theaters and audiences in places like California. I just think that he's now been part of a very different bubble, especially during awards season. And, you know, it wouldn't be the first time that he has said something about his own perspective on acting and the profession and cinema and himself within that world that has been interpreted as more than a little pretentious. Very possibly he is someone who senses the magnitude of a burgeoning career and feels as though part of that is having striking, provocative opinions about it. But given everything that he is kind of getting at in his point here, it also feels a little bit like punching down. Say, these are art forms which, as he says, are not nearly as popular as the films in which he is appearing. Like the one about the Pink Pong player that I haven't had the chance to enjoy yet. If there is truth to that, then surely the courteous thing would be to uplift those art forms. And I don't really perceive this as a statement that was meant to be malicious. And you can tell from what he said afterwards that he kind of heard it as soon as he said it. But I do think that there was a foolishness to it, one which portrays the way that he really feels about ballet and dance. And I'm curious about how theatre fits into all of that. Not just because he's done a little bit of it, and not just because of the time that he was oddly rumored to be playing Frank N. Furter in the then upcoming revival of the Rocky Horror show on Broadway. That would have been quite something. And obviously that show is also neither opera nor ballet. But I do also think that his Broadway debut is at some point in his career, an inevitability. It may not happen soon if he continues to work in back to back screen projects. If he does win his first Academy Award, that won't be the moment when he finally appears in a major production on the New York stage. But certainly at some point, if Broadway still exists, indeed in 30, 40 years time, then I dare say that we will get a Timothee Chalamet star vehicle. And when we do, if I was a betting man, I would be willing to put money on the fact that it would be Shakespeare. And he has already performed on screen in Shakespeare adjacent territory. He did a film. Was it the King? Is that what it was called? Which was, I believe, an adaptation of Shakespeare's Henry IV Part 1 and 2. As well as Henry V. I think he played Hal. It may or may not surprise you to learn I have seen very few Timothe Chalamet screen appearances other than like Wonka, in which he by all accounts seemed to enjoy a little bit of singing and dancing, and which, FYI included a vast number of dancers who would have trained in ballet, reminding us that he works in an industry which is often reliant on those talents, even if it does not employ them consistently enough to sustain their entire careers. So we still need ballet to exist in order to nurture and develop those individuals. If you want anyone to be dancing in your movies. But yeah, I think it feels kind of inevitable, like with the recent Broadway appearances of Denzel Washington and Jake Gyllenhaal and Kit Connor, that Mr. Chalamet is gonna do a Shakespeare vehicle on Broadway at some point. It could even be one of the Henry's again. Actually, no, he's gonna do Hamlet, isn't he? He's absolute. Oh, come on. He's absolutely gonna do Hamlet. I mean, come on now. At which point I am going to remember these exact comments. And I am not suggesting that Shakespeare is outdated and that no one cares about Shakespeare. But I think a lot of people who feel this way about Oper, this way about ballet, may also feel this way about Shakespeare. His work is admittedly this thing which does need to be kept alive. And yet I suspect he may feel differently about Shakespeare because it feels more available and accessible to him. I think the worlds of opera and classical ballet are probably ones which he doesn't necessarily understand. And while that's a perspective I don't agree with broadcasting so publicly, I definitely think it's a mindset that I can relate to. Within the past decade, I have been making a determined effort to try and familiarize myself with more opera and try and move steadily into the world of opera by beginning with more musical theater adjacent operetta and just kind of dip my toe. It's been going very well so far. I've been thoroughly enjoying myself. Likewise, I don't have much of an understanding of the lexicon of classical dance beyond some of the basics that I was taught in a couple years of relatively infrequent ballet classes. And so even though I'm someone who enjoys an extraordinary amount of live cultural entertainment, I see relatively little opera and almost no ballet. And there was probably a time when I would have viewed them as kind of stuffy, archaic art forms, which would have been a mistake. And it's a notion which we can very quickly and easily debunk. We can talk about the breadth of audiences going to enjoy ballet and opera. We can talk about prolific major productions on vast stages worldwide. We can talk about the number of individuals continuing to train in each of these disciplines and the extraordinary passion that they have for it. But also, I think a really important aspect of this conversation is the prevalence of operatic technique and ballet technique in almost any form of vocal and dance training. And Mr. Chalamet, like many other screen actors, has at some point in his career received vocal and dance training. And even if you end up being a singer or a dancer in musical theatre, chances are that your dance training was based on classical ballet technique. Chances are that your vocal training was based on classical operatic technique. I had vocal lessons for years. I didn't start day one singing Giants in the sky and Lost in the Wilderness. I was giving it Non piantrae farfalo ne Amorosso. Like, that was the way that I began to figure out what my voice was. And when we talk about classical training, this is what we're talking about. We're talking about opera and ballet because there is so much value in the sheer technique. And they are both needless to say incredibly difficult, highly competitive pursuits in terms of the performing arts, in terms of the level of care and skill and dexterity that ballet dancers and opera singers need to maintain throughout their working careers. These are kind of the Olympic athletes of the performing arts, arguably much more so than screen actors. And if Timote, as he has said before, wants to be taken uber seriously as this real great in the acting world, I think one of the things that requires the most rigor, as he will have learned previously, is appearing on stage. There was so much more that I think you could have said when talking about audience attention spans, because when I think of theatrical audiences in the current climate, I am inspired by the individuals who are still not only willing and able, but eager and passionate to go and sit and watch hours of opera and ballet and theater and plays and musicals when we're having conversations about, you know, institutions like Netflix prioritizing writing and filmmaking, that is intended as a second screen where people are able to retain information while not really watching the thing that they're watching. And if I was any kind of legitimate actor, I certainly don't know that that is the thing that I would be framing as like the most important art I could be making right now. Finally, before we move on, I'm reading the Hollywood Reporter here and we do have some perspectives from individuals from the world of ballet and opera. The Royal Ballet and Opera here in the UK said ballet and opera have never existed in isolation. They have continually informed, inspired and elevated other art forms. As I mentioned, their influence can be felt across theatre, film, contemporary music, fashion and beyond. For centuries, these disciplines have shaped the way artists create and audiences experience culture. And today, millions of people around the world continue to enjoy and engage with them. Millions, they said. Millions, Mr. Chalamet. Meanwhile, American opera singer Isabel Leonard responded to the clip. She wrote, honestly, I'm shocked that someone so seemingly successful can be so ineloquent and narrow minded in his views about art while considering himself as artist, as I would only imagine one would as an actor. Irish opera singer Sean Tester posted on his Instagram to say that Chalamet's choice of words is the kind of reductive take you hear when popularity is mistaken for cultural value. Which I think is a really interesting point and which leads us beautifully into the next part of this conversation. Having given Timote the sort of metaphorical slap on the wrist, let's park that whole part of it and let's talk about why I even care about this in the first place.
- [16:47]
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- [17:14]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [17:51]
Mickey Jo
Now Like I said, I remember being that person who had precont opera and about ballet based not on any kind of significant experience with either of those art forms. And the reason why I feel so strongly about this is because over the years I have encountered many, many times people who feel similarly about theatre as an entire concept. People who feel that way about musical theatre and who are dismissive towards it and who have a perspective on it which is reductive and inaccurate. Or people who love musicals but have a similar perspective towards plays. People who enjoy one aspect of live cultural entertainment but have no time or even consideration for anything adjacent. And I'm not here to tell people that they are obliged to change their minds and that musical theatre people have to go and see plays and that the play people have to respect musicals if they don't want to, or that the opera people ought to be seeing musicals, or that the musical people ought to be seeing opera. My point and my fear here is that there is a real danger for each of these art forms when people en masse restrict their perspective on what that thing is. When people have a preconception about what musicals are and it's something, you know, very sort of Les Mis adjacent where like characters begin to inexplicably burst into song and dance and sing their feelings rather than saying anything and it all has this kind of a recitative, pseudo operatic quality. Or people have misgivings about going to see a play, they think that it's going to be boring, as if it doesn't offer the same kind of intensity in its storytelling that they presume presumably enjoy on screen in TV dramas and films, many of which are adapted from those plays. I've heard people say that they don't like opera because they don't like the scale of the emotional storytelling. In spite of the fact that many musicals have been adapted from operas. There is, like we heard in one of those statements a moment ago, a lot of interchange between these art forms and a lot of crossover between these art forms. And the very worst of it is when I hear people say I want to get a sense from people that they don't think they like theatre at all. And I maintain that there is perfect theatrical experience to convert just about anyone, because musical theatre as an example, is a form, is a medium and it is not a genre. It's not something that is tonally consistent from one musical to the next. You know, Brigadoon is not Sweeney Todd is not Rent is not Spring Awakening is not A Strange Loop is not South Pacific is not the who's Tommy, which is kind of moving us towards the world of rock opera. Opera likewise is a medium, it is a art form, it is not a genre. Ballet, the same, plays, the same. And theatre, the entire notion of live performance is this hugely broad concept. It's like saying, I don't really like films. Like if you say I don't like theatre, it's actually the same thing. But your perspective, I think when people say that, of what theatre is, is, is perhaps a narrow minded one that is driven by previous bad experiences you may have had or experiences that you have avoided. And I think far from the more stereotypical offerings of like Cats or Les Mis or the Phantom of the Opera, you have these truly unique novel theatrical experiences. I'm thinking about Ken Rex, which is playing very soon, Off Broadway, which was just in London nominated for a bunch of Olivier Awards. I'm thinking about the Choir of Man. I'm thinking about a lot of shows which are really well positioned to convert people who believe that they just don't like theater or they just don't like plays, or they just don't like musicals. Because regardless of exactly what it is you watch on screen, the majority of people enjoy a film, like at some time or another, chances are you have enjoyed a film. And I almost never hear people say that they just don't really like narrative films. And even if it's not narrative, even if you like hard hitting historical documentaries, the play here, there are blueberries which I just saw at Stratford east, feels like a documentary on stage. If you like watching true crime dramas, then Ken Rex feels like a true crime drama. And if we really consider what it is that's happening, when you're watching a film, there's almost always a music component. Like, there is very often music in dramatic storytelling, in plays, even if they are not musicals. But you are watching storytelling, you are watching a narrative. You know, these things owe their existence instance to classical storytelling, to traditional theater. That is where narratives on screen came from originally. That is the historic art form which was, in its way, responsible for cinema. And the Greeks are a part of that legacy. And Shakespeare is a part of that legacy, as is opera and ballet. And it's very troubling to hear people, especially people from within the artistic sphere, saying the quiet part out loud, as it were, that no one really likes these things anymore and everyone is just trying to keep them alive out of principle. And sometimes the impact of these historic art forms can be noticed more explicitly on screen. You talk about an acclaimed TV series like Succession, which is kind of loosely based on Shakespeare's King Lear. This may also shock you, but I've never seen any of the Godfather movies, though they are kind of believed to be some of the greatest pieces of cinematic storytelling of all time. Certainly the first one. And I'm pretty sure there's a decent amount of opera in the Godfather soundtrack. Like, it's ironic for people to assume that they are so divorced from this world when they don't realize how closely connected to it they are. And not to make a personal comment, but circling back to Mr. Chalamet for just a moment, I believe he is currently still in a romantic relationship with Kylie Jenner. And should the two of them ever decide to marry, there is a very good chance, based on Kardashian history, that Andrea Bocelli will sing at their wedding. Who sang at Kim's wedding, Andrea Bocelli, who sang at Courtney's wedding, Andrea Bocell Kelly. That was a reference for exactly two people who appreciated it. And let's just say he isn't going to be singing Kanye West. And we can talk about, if you like, performances of opera and ballet being perhaps appropriated as cultural entertainment in very high art, wealthy upper class circles. But that isn't what this conversation was. This wasn't about the importance of democratizing art forms and bringing it to young people. This was just the notion that nobody likes any of those things. It has, however, alongside all of the backlash, the memes, and at least one performing arts venue. Creating a Chalamet discount code to their performances ignited some conversation about the placement of ballet and opera within mainstream culture and whether Mr. Chalamet was actually right in some way, even if he was also wrong. Let's see what they had to say in the New York Times. In a piece provocatively titled Timothee Chalamet has a point about ballad, not opera, interestingly enough, but just specifically ballet. This was written by Gia Corlas. She also pointed out that he grew up in Manhattan Plaza, the same building where Alicia Keys grew up, the focus of the musical Hell's Kitchen, a building for artists including actors, singers and, yes, dancers. She also points out that his mother and his sister studied at the School of American Ballet. But she goes on to suggest that rather than taking shots for no reason, his own words his point wasn't that ballet and opera don't matter, but that they aren't really part of mainstream culture. He was dismissing these art forms roles in our society. And is he wrong? The value of ballet and opera and people's perception around their value are two different things, she goes on to write. It's almost impossible to assume he didn't attend and appreciate performances while growing up, a short walk from Broadway in Lincoln center and attending the high school that inspired fame. The most interesting point, though, I think, comes in the penultimate paragraph. Chalamet's words sadly prove another point about ballet's role in popular culture. The reason the mainstream media is talking about ballet this week is because a celebrity talked about it first. If a dancer said that a film didn't matter, it would be like a tree falling in the woods. The concluding statement is, in Chalamet's words, lies a deeper point. It's not that ballet isn't important. It's that the world can't wrap its mind around finding its true value.
- [25:51]
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- [26:21]
Ryan Reynolds
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- [26:53]
Mickey Jo
value. And I don't particularly fear that opera or ballet are going to disappear from the face of the earth entirely, nor that theater and the West End and Broadway will do the same. In fact, I think with the dawning of AI and its encroachment on Hollywood, which presumably in the next decade is only going to progress, I think live entertainment and live performance is only going to become more appreciated and more valuable for its sanctity. I fear there may come a time when you will only be able to find honest, truthful storytelling by experiencing it live and in person person but if it is true that ballet and opera have long since faded from mainstream culture, what is there to be done about that? And what, if anything, is going to change the way that people feel about them? And if we are at a point now where they are attended by millions of people around the world and yet perception by some, by the likes of Timothe Chalamet, is that no one really cares about them, is there even a problem in the first place? And obviously when it comes to theatre and its own cultural significance, occasionally you get something like a Hamilton which really crosses crosses over into the mainstream. Occasionally other things may happen in society which may affect the way that we engage with entertainment. And I think the Dawning of TikTok, while doing a number on everyone's collective attention spans, also reminded people of the importance of theatricality and musical theater storytelling. Hence the number of viral sounds that have come from musical theater cast recordings. It's also no secret though, and possibly a big component of why you may have clicked on this video in the first place, that we don't necessarily experience a TV or cinema culture right now so much as a celebrity culture, and a lot of the ability of theatrical productions to gain major hype and attention from people outside of the immediate theatre community. And bubble is celebrity casting. Like the New York Times piece said, the reason that ballet and opera are in conversation this week is because of these comments by Mr. Chalamet. And as we well know, if he were to decide to go and do a Broadway play, it would instantly be a hot ticket because people want to see him on set stage. And I think there's a lot of food for thought here. I don't necessarily have answers to any of the questions that I am posing. I think, as is often the case, time will tell. But if there is one notion that I can leave you with or try and persuade you of, let it be this. To entirely close yourself off from experiencing live performing arts, from experiencing live storytelling, is, I think, a really unfortunate limitation on your own human experience. Experience. Obviously, I'm obsessed with going to the theater, and I would say that. But I'm not trying to get you to be like me and do it 30 times a month. I think it's an objectively weird life if you manage to make it through it without having ever eaten pasta, for example. And I think not seeing any type of theater, any type of performance, whether it's ballet or opera or plays or musicals or perhaps the most mainstream version of this music performed live in concert. To close yourself off to this experience because of false, outdated preconceptions about what that experience is going to be like, I think is so disappointing. Chances are, if you have scarcely been to it, theater is not necessarily what you think. Opera is not necessarily just what you think. Ballet is not necessarily just what you think. Let this moment of global artistic debate be an incentive for you to go and check out a ballet production or an opera production at a theater near you. You might just surprise yourself.
- [30:25]
Ryan Reynolds
Yourself.
- [30:25]
Mickey Jo
And even if it isn't a moment of revelation and you realize that you don't enjoy that after all, at least you've tried pasta. For now. That is all I have to say. But as always, I would love to hear your thoughts in the comments section down below. Let's all be kind and respectful. I don't think any of these comments were intended with any malice, and also if anyone has any ballet or opera recommendations, feel free to share those as well. In the meantime, thank you so much for listening to my thoughts. I hope that you enjoyed if you did make sure to subscribe right here on YouTube, subscribe YouTube or follow me on podcast platforms. You can also find me on other social media apps and you can stay up to date with everything that I have to say each week via my free weekly substack newsletter that you can sign up to with the link in the description. As always, I hope that everyone is staying safe and that you have. That means you too, Mr. Chalamet. A stagey day for 10 more seconds, I'm Mickey Jo Theatre. Oh my God. Hey, thanks for watching. Have a stagey day.
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