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who is the villain in THE LAST 5 YEARS? | Mickey-Jo's thoughts on the toxic relationship in the musical
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- [00:00]
Mickey Jo
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- [00:30]
Brooke Devard
Hello, hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care, journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty. I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for Naked Beauty on your podcast app and listen along. I hope you'll join us.
- [01:12]
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- [01:58]
Mickey Jo
It is quite honestly one of the most contentious debates in the history of musical theatre. No, I'm not talking bootlegs. No, I'm not talking Avenue Q versus Wicked at the Tony Awards. I'm not even talking Andrew Lloyd Webber versus Stephen Sondheim. I am talking about the age old who is the real villain in the last five years. And I say debate. I honestly feel as though there is something of a consensus in the musical theater community that Jamie is this horrible, obnoxious, evil man who sing handedly ruined their relationship and Kathy is a perfect angel who can do no wrong. And as someone who played Jamie in a not entirely straightforward student production of the last five years, I am prepared to, dare I say, defend him a little bit here. This is something of a defense of Jamie Wellerstein, even if I don't feel brave enough to make that the title of this video. But having alluded to my real feelings about it for years now, I do think it's time for us to have a robust conversation about why he isn't necessarily the villain. And before we embark on this dangerous chapter together. Oh my God. Hey. Welcome to my theater themed YouTube channel, possibly for the first, possibly also for the last time, as I share some uncomfortable contemporary musical theatre truths. My name is Mickey Jo and I clearly am obsessed with all things theatre. I'm a theatre critic and content creator here on social media. You can find me on all of the usual platforms if you want more of these kind of conversations. And frankly, who wouldn't? And I, over the course of my theatre going lifetime, have seen four, four completely different productions of Jason Robert Brown's allegedly semi autobiographical, seminal contemporary musical theatre song cycle, the Last Five Years. It tells the story of a five year relationship from the perspective of its two participants. I was gonna say the two people in the relationship. Kathy Hyatt, an aspiring but perhaps unsuccessful actress, and Jamie Wallerstein, a huge overnight success of a young author. We see the earliest moments of their relationship, we see them vow to spend their lives together, eventually see its downfall. But we see this through a very specific dual lens because Kathy's perspective is shown to us in reverse, beginning at the end of the relationship, while Jamie's is not. And they alternate these sort of monologue songs with very few spoken moments. And three of those productions that I have seen over the last five years have been within the last one year. So, you know, it's been on my mind. And I'm consistently struck by the way that fans interpret this show and rally behind one of its characters very much in opposition to the other, in spite of the fact that it is allegedly based on the composer's own first marriage, with Jamie being an insert character for himself in this relationship that he would have written, which many interpret to be the bad guy. So right here, right now, because I care far too deeply, we're going to have a robust conversation about this, and of course I'm going to be sharing my opinion. I welcome all of your thoughts and feedback in the comments section down below. I don't necessarily think we need to talk about specific performances because I think that muddies the waters somewhat. Whether you preferred Jeremy Jordan as Jamie and that endeared you more to him, Vers NORBERT, Leo Butz vs. Nick Jonas, etc etc, what we're doing here is actually some groundbreaking musical theatre science and we're really going to pay attention to the details in the material as we consider Option A the popular theory Jamie is the villain, option B the alternative Kathy is the villain, or option C the popular play by Kimberly Bellflower John Proctor is the villain. I joke, although banging piece of theatre for what it's worth. Perhaps a third option may emerge, but you're going to have to wait for it. In the meantime, I let's begin this conversation who was the real villain in the Leadership used to mean having all the answers, but today's best leaders embody a more human approach. I'm Jack Myers. And I'm Tim Spengler. Tim and I have spent our careers inside media, marketing and culture and we partnered with the ACAST Creator Network to start Lead Human to answer one simple question. What does it really look like to lead in this AI dominated world? The biggest tip for being a creator? It's a job. What I learned from Michael Jack here's a man who understands precision. It's about answering the questions that are hard, not about answering a bunch of teed up questions that are fake. What we're looking for are real stories and practical advice that you can use with your teams right away. Subscribe to Lead Human with Jack Myers and Tim Spengler wherever you get your podcasts.
- [06:21]
Noom Advertiser
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- [07:07]
Mickey Jo
past five years. So to quote the chain fast food restaurant Burger King, let's have it your way and initially consider whether Jamie is simply the problem here and we're going to take a look at their relationship starting with his material. And I'll be honest, we don't get off to a great start with Shiksa Goddess. Even considering that the vast majority of these lyrics may be tongue cheek, the witticisms of someone who at this point is an aspiring novelist, this is the first we actually hear of his voice in the entire musical. It's also the first commentary that we get from him on their relationship, and he sings about all of the various Jewish women who he has dated previously and how his family would be so disappointed to see him now in a meaningful relationship with a Shiksa goddess, a young woman who is not Jewish, who is specifically non Jewish. And the unserious tone of the song notwithstanding, the issue I have is when we get into the seeming more sentimental sections when the melody indicates to us that it's a little bit more introspective and he sings I've been waiting for someone like you Breaking the circle you and it feels as though, you know, it's not tantamount to a real cycle of trauma that he's been enduring up until now. You know, the Handelman twins can't have been that bad. And towards the end, even though there is a nice charming symmetry in him singing the lyric I've been waiting for someone, I've been praying for someone I think that I could be in love with someone like you and I Symmetry with her earliest song in the relationship, goodbye until Tomorrow, when she sings I have been waiting I have been waiting for you so they've been waiting for each other. It feels as though they're really destined to be together and they're starting on very even terms which, you know, enjoy it while it lasts. My concern is, is that this kind of sounds like it might be the first time he's beginning to say something adjacent to but not identical to I love you. And the kind of conditional phrasing of I think I could be in love with someone like you is a half rude and B what does it imply at the end of the song? Shiksa Goddess is the context of like someone like you? Does that mean someone who isn't Jewish? Is that really all that that means? And if that is the case, is this him basically telling her he kind of loves her for the first time in his own clearly non committal avoidant way by basically singing this whole song as if to say, hey, Kathy, you know what I love? You know what I really could love about you? How not Jewish you are. I mean, come on now. Also, even when he seems really into her and he's singing, you are the story I should write, I have to write. All of these narratives about the male artistic genius who is inspired by his muse never end well. Have you not seen Sunday in the park with George? Because I have, and I paid attention. Anyway, we carry on from Shiksa Goddess to a phone conversation that Jamie has with a guy named Rob. I'll be honest with you, it does not matter to us who Rob is, and he's never mentioned again. Jamie tells Rob he's thinking of moving in with Kathy. He then sings a song called Moving Too Fast, full of Death Defying modulations, in which he recounts all of his sudden, perhaps overwhelming success. For the most part, he's singing about his professional achievements. There is an auspicious juxtaposition between I found a woman I love and I found an agent who loves me. And the fact that he places those two things side by side with too little concern is eye opening, as well as something of a premonition for the future. There's another one in there as well when he reflects, you know, some people can't get success with their art, Some people never feel love in their heart. Some people can't tell the two things apart. He is incredibly perceptive about the problems that are going to arise, the frustrations between these two artists, these two creative personalities living in New York, but apparently not enough in order to really effectively communicate about them. This happens again later on when he's reading a passage from his book and I get my own little version of a Vietnam flashback whenever I talk about or hear this part of the show. But it's basically a small recitation of a story about two people in a relationship who are swimming laps together. And the guy becomes fascinated by his presumably girlfriend swimming through the water and how unrecognizable she is in this moment of determination and focus. And she sees him watching her quizzically and gives him an odd expression. And then for the rest of the day, even as he reflects on how in love with her he is, she is frustrated with him because she perceived his pausing in the pool and staring at her as letting her win. And it seems as though, once again, Jamie is really perceptive about the challenges in their relationship, but not enough in order to effectively communicate about them, because eventually, even amongst A song in which he is trying to reassure Kathy that he does care deeply about her career and he does believe that she is going to be successful. The song if I didn't believe in you, he says entirely the wrong thing and almost implies the opposite of that. As he chastises her for not being able to enjoy and appreciate his success in light of her own challenges. He angrily sings, no one can give you courage, no one can thicken your skin. I will not fail so you can be comfortable, Kathy. I will not lose because you can't win. And it's at this point in the show where we see all of his best intentions really begin to evaporate and he begins to make self destructive choices. We hear about them in his material and in hers. And I've actually skipped out a little section here that is an indicator where we are heading because right after the two of them have a sort of a wedding, a moment of overlap in the middle of the show, during which they are together on stage briefly before embarking in different directions, Jamie sings a song called A Miracle Would Happen. This song has had slightly updated lyrics, but still continues to say the same thing. He's basically reflecting on the fact that he now has available to him a great many more romantic prospects as a newly married man and how it seems as though now all these women are interested in him who weren't previously. And if he wanted to, he could have a buttload of affairs. Buttload was the wrong word there. That implied something different than what I was intending. We're gonna carry on right past that. But he makes again the very perceptive connection between these women and parties at which he is, in his own words, the grand fromage, the center of attention and a la Evan Hansen. We hear a little clue in the orchestrations from Jason Robert Brown at the end of the song in even as he is singing like, I'll be there for you, Kathy. I'm on my way, he sings, I'll be there soon, Kathy. I swear I will. And there's this sort of minor sustained darkness happening beneath that, as if to sort of say, no, you won't. So it's a relatively little surprise to us later on when we find out that Jamie has responded to ever increasing friction in their relationship by having an affair. And it is, from my recollection, not explicitly stated within the confines of the material, with whom he has the affair, because there is much conversation about a woman named Elise, who I believe is his publisher. They have a fight about her over the phone when he is calling Kathy down to come and see a review that's going to be printed this in one of his more obnoxious moments, because she's having terrible auditions. And he's like, no, come here and read this review. Come here and celebrate my success at this bar. Everything's great for me. My life's amazing. Why would you not want to participate in that? Anyway? She bristles at the mention of Elise. Far later on in the show, it's revealed that Elise helps him to pack his things because, like I said, Rob has ceased to exist. Only Elise, based on the sort of implied employment hierarchy at play here, wouldn't necessarily seem to be young enough for Jamie to consistently describe her as the kid that he is singing to in the song. Nobody needs to know. This is when we see him waking up in a bed with a woman who isn't his wife. And he sings, hey, kid, good morning. You look like an angel. I don't remember when we fell asleep. We should get up, kid. Kathy is waiting. And to my mind, there is every possibility he could also go on to have a substantial relationship with Elise or with somebody else. But I think this particular person, and I do think this is the first time he has consummated an extramarital affair. I think this is almost a stranger, a young woman who he has encountered who is sort of meaningless him outside of the fact that she represents the possibility of someone new. Right. At the end of the song, he echoes what he's saying about Kathy in one of their earliest encounters, singing, maybe I should be in love with someone like you. And it feels not at all specific to whoever this poor girl is. Meanwhile, all of the compartmentalizing and justification that he does within this lyric feels pretty emotionally manipulative, because alongside a lot of critical reflection, he sings, all that I ask for is one little corner, One private room at the back of my heart. Tell her I found one. She sends in battalions to claim it and blow it apart before going on to reflect on the challenges in their relationship. And I get how most people instantly decide at this point. Jamie is the villain. Jamie is the problem. He had an affair. Especially when you consider that Kathy earlier on specifically rejected romantic advances from that other guy who was doing theater with her in Ohio. Who's the one? Richard. Richard, who was uncharacteristically quiet. You remember him, you recall his work. And she sang, he wants me, he wants me, but he ain't gonna get me. Meanwhile, Jamie sings, gosh, all of these women suddenly find me attractive. Guess I'll sleep with One when my marriage gets difficult, I actually think the worst behavior of his comes very shortly afterwards. Only we've heard about it way earlier because it's in Kathy's timeline. The second song she sings, see I'm Smiling. This, I think, is the most egregious thing Jamie does in the entire show because he has seemingly just arrived to come and see the show that she is in, on her birthday, no less, before announcing to her that he isn't going to stay, that he is going to flee. And we get a little bit of insight into why this is because he can't possibly stand to be there because he's so tormented. He is carrying more secrets and wounds than she realizes, having had the affair at this point. But the fact of the matter is he tells her that he is leaving in order to, as she puts it, go to another party with the same 20 jerks he already knows. In fact, it's implied that he isn't even going to stay to see her in the show that he's traveled to come and watch. Suggesting to my mind that he got there, realized he couldn't do it, and is leaving to basically start, you know, ending their marriage, which is something he ultimately decides to do without her consultation. And even though very early on in their relationship she had sung to him about how a previous boyfriend had blown her off with a heartfelt letter, he ends up after a five year relationship doing exactly the same thing, telling her while clearly framing himself still as the hero of his own story, that he could never rescue her and that he has closed their joint bank account. Unclear how much money he's left her or what he's chosen to do about that. And that he's moved his stuff and he isn't even going to face her. Which perhaps is just a logistical reality of a musical in which they are at this point at completely opposite ends of the timeline and have already had their one moment of crossover, but still douche move. Regardless, I think we can all agree. And listen, nobody likes breaking up with somebody, nobody enjoys divorce, but you kind of have to at least make the effort to do it face to face. And, you know, laying all of that out on the table, I hear it, I get it. I understand why people resent this character and why seemingly almost everyone is in alignment against him. However, I have some perhaps controversial thoughts about why Kathy is also not great. Let's consider option B, that Kathy Hyatt is actually the
- [19:16]
Brooke Devard
Hello? Hello, it's Brooke Devard from Naked Beauty. Join me each week for Unfiltered discussion about beauty trends, self care journeys, wellness tips, and the products we absolutely love and cannot get enough of. If you are a skincare obsessive and you spend 20 plus minutes on your skincare routine, this podcast is for you. Or if you're a newbie at the beginning of your skincare journey, you'll love this podcast as well. Because we go so much deeper than beauty, I talk to incredible and inspiring people from across industries about their relationship with beauty. You'll also hear from skincare experts. We break down lots of myths in the beauty industry. If this sounds like your thing, search for naked beauty on your podcast Apple and listen along. I hope you'll join us.
- [19:58]
Noom Advertiser
Have you ever been stuck on a weight loss plateau? Trying everything and anything you can to lose that extra weight and reach peak health? We've all been there, but Noom's unlocked a secret to reaching the mountaintop goin micro the Noom GLP1 microdose program starts at $99 and is delivered to your door in seven days. Start your microdose GLP1 journey today at noom.com that's n o o m.com micro changes big results Noom GLP1 RX program involves healthy diet, exercise and support. Individual results may vary. Meds and personalization based on clinical need. Not reviewed by FDA for safety, efficacy or quality. No affiliation with Novo Nordisk, Inc. The only US source of FDA approved semaglutide not available in all 50 US states.
- [20:44]
Mickey Jo
Vill. Now I do feel a little bit like Flynn Rider in that one tangled gif where all the swords appear around his head. But hear me out on this one. Like I mentioned before, I played Jamie in a production of the last five years and I feel like as any kind of an actor of which I'm not particularly, you can't go into that deciding that you are playing a terrible person and playing a villain. You have to find some way in which to humanize them and try and see things from their perspective, at least if you're not playing like a war criminal or something. And so I searched for the redeeming qualities as well as a way to kind of get into his mindset of the relationship and in doing so tried to figure out whether Jason Robert Brown did see this character, regardless of whether or not we think it's a placeholder for him or their relationship, whatever. Whether Jason thinks that Jamie is less sympathetic as a character or not, whether he thinks it's an even playing field between the two. And I think the material might suggest that he does. Because if you listen to it, if you really pay attention to it, there are many indications that Kathy does not invest in their relationship in the same way that Jamie does. She does not reciprocate the same support that he offers to her, at least in the first two to three years of the five years. And before we get into those specific details, I want also to acknowledge that the game is kind of rigged against him from the start, because while his story is told in the usual order and we see him worsen, we begin with a framing of the entire thing as the moment of breakup and divorce. The first song that we hear, the first lyrics that we hear are still hurting. Jamie is over, and Jamie is gone. And we see her distraught. We then see him coming in singing about all of these terrible Jewish women he's dating. So he doesn't look like a great guy to begin with. We feel sympathetic to her sorrow and her pain as she's singing. What about lies? What about things that you swore to be true? And we have no reason not to believe her. So we assume that he's been lying and then he's dumped her, and he's clearly left her this letter that we usually see as a prop along with their rings. We hate this guy immediately before he. He said anything in his high tenor range. And so it's difficult for Jamie to claw his way out of the hole that he's sort of initially placed into. That being said, if we pay attention specifically to where they sing about each other's careers, him about her career as an actress, hers about his as a writer, this is, prior to the affair, the biggest sticking point, really, in their relationship and the biggest problem in terms of the power dynamic. The most substantial fight that we see is sort of during the song if I Didn't Believe in youn. And this all comes from a comparison between their careers, his success, her lack thereof. And he sings multiple entire songs about wanting to support her and trying to support her, while she sings songs about justifying his success by acknowledging that it's also, in a way, her success as well, and that she is instrumental and in it. And I'm trivializing that a little bit, but let's really consider these songs, because if I Didn't Believe in you, like I said, begins with good intentions. The start of that song is lyrically nurturing and reassuring. And they're in a fight, and, you know, they just shouldn't be having this conversation. Tensions are high. It does not go to a good place. But the idea of it is at the Beginning that he is saying, of course I believe in you. If I didn't believe in you, do you think all of this would have happened? And that's not the right way to go about it. He really should have just stuck with however many bars of Yes, I believe in you and had done with it. But prior to that, before everything gets so tense and so heated. He sings the Shmuel song. And it's the Shmuel song, which is central to my entire thesis. And I respect the fact a lot of people might be skipping the Schmule song. You might not be listening to the Schmule song. You may not consider it one of the standout songs on your preferred cast recording of the last five years. And I respect that. It's a little out there. It's no summer in Ohio. It's no moving too fast. But the Shmuel song is beautiful. It's this extended metaphor. It's a story that he creates for her as a storyteller, as a marvelous novelist that he is. The entire message of which is that she doesn't have to put so much pressure on herself in her career and that she should take her time. How he arrives to that message is this convoluted story about a man called Shmuel, the Tailor of Klemovich. And it's this long, elaborate song about how this guy was visited by a talking clock and he made a dress and it turned back time and allowed him to live all of these years again. And with this renewed time, he immediately went to go and seek a beautiful woman and got married the very next day. And romantically, Jamie compares Shmuel, the Tailor of Klumovich to Kathy, presenting her eventually with a very symbolic watch as a Christmas present. But. But also a recommendation for a headshot photographer and a copy of Backstage magazine where he has already checked and found parts that she would be right for on every page it is of every single song in the entire musical. The most generous that either of them sings to. And for the other, this entire story is for her to uplift and encourage her. Meanwhile, her sweetest material about the relationship, which would be Summer in Ohio, which she sings just after they got married and she still in the honeymoon phase. Or I can do better than that when she's very excited about their blossoming early relationship as they're on their way to go and see the town in which she grew up, and she's telling him about her past. Both of these songs are rooted in her talking about herself. She at no point has anything resembling The Shmuel song. Quite early in the show, she sings A Part of that, which is my biggest skip track in the last five years. And she's sort of lightly poking fun at Jamie's process whenever he begins to write and the focus that he enters into. And she's usually depicted here as being at some kind of a party, some kind of an event that's centered around him. So it's natural for her to be having these thoughts. But she does rationalize his success by acknowledging that she is participatory in it and that he wouldn't be able to achieve all of this if she weren't supporting it. She sings I'm a part of that, aren't I? And I just think with that summary of the way that she thinks about his work and his life outside of the relationship versus the Shmuel song and the way that he sings about hers, there's no question of who is the more supportive at this point in the relationship. Meanwhile, even when she is giddily happy about being Mrs. Jamie Wellistein and singing about seeing his book at a Borders or a Target in Kentucky, depending on which version of the show you are listening to, and how it was listed there as new and recommended and she looked at his picture and then she had to buy a copy and she was so excited about it, she laid her visa down. Even then she goes on to sing look at me, look at him. I guess I'm doing something right. I finally got something right. It's not nirvana, but it's on the way. I'm playing Anita in the matinee. It becomes immediately about her again. The entirety of We Can Do Better Than that is about her past experiences. They're driving to her hometown, maybe they're meeting her parents, whatever. And she is telling him about all of these guys that she dated and all of these choices that she made as a young woman moving to the city and people she went to high school with. And that kind of nostalgia could arise when you go and visit your hometown, but it does feel, admittedly again, one person on stage, it feels one sided. It feels like she is just only ever really singing about herself and then kind of acknowledging the relationship. And at the same time, not to really psychoanalyze the situation, but she puts too much pressure on the relationship as well. When she sings you and you and nothing but you. Miles and piles of you. Finally I'll have something worthwhile to think of each morning. That's a red flag. That's a problem. If you're saying to your partner. Thank God, now that I'm dating you, I have a reason to live. That's a little too intense. That's too much pressure to put on somebody. No wonder he sang an elaborate Shmuel song in order to tell her to chill. In the final line of that song, he sings to her, have I mentioned today how lucky I am to be in love with you? How lucky I am to be in love with you? I think that's one of the most beautiful lines in the entire show about their relationship. And I've barely mentioned the bizarre nature of their vows to one another. In the song the next 10 minutes, when he sings about how he wants to spend his life with her, and she immediately replies by saying, I am not always on time. Do not expect that of me. I'll be late, but if you can just wait, I'll be there. Eventually it gets better when she arrives at the lyric. I don't know how anybody survives in this life without someone like you. And then, I want to be your wife. I want to bear your child. I want to die knowing I had a long, full life in your arms. Bury the notebook and listen. I'm not gonna blame her for everything that happens subsequently. I think the professional frustrations that she experiences are completely understandable. I think the way in which Jaime comes to respond to that as he becomes ever more successful, just sees the two of them moving in incompatibly different directions. But I do think before we get to all of that, there isn't enough conversation about how in the earliest formative years of their relationship, he is unceasingly supportive of her in a way that she never really seems to reciprocate, and how she invests far too much of herself in the relationship day one, before eventually resenting the notion that being his wife and as she says, you know, being stuck in the burbs with the baby, the dog, and the garden of herbs trotting along at the genius's heels is all that she might be able to achieve. While Jamie, as we hear it, made every attempt to push her towards the success he believed her to be capable of achieving. Also, and this is only just now occurring to me, there is a little bit of an inconsistency here. I feel like I'm cross examining Kathy Hyatt. But in a part of that, she describes these trance like episodes in which Jamie is just like completely dissociated from reality while writing, and then while she's auditioning, having a lot of negative internal thoughts. She says, if I don't get a call back, I can go to Crate and Barrel with mom and buy a couch. Not that I want to spend a day with mom, but Jamie needs space to write since I'm obviously such a horrible, annoying distraction reaction to him. What's it going to be like when we have kids? And I'm like, which is it? Is he so in the zone that he can't hear anything else that's going on around him? Or does he need space and silence in order to work? So you have to go couch shopping with your mother? Because it would seem to me like it's probably the first one. Especially when she goes on to say since I'm obviously such a horrible, annoying distraction to him, it's stated as if to suggest that isn't something he actually said, but something that she is perceiving, which feels much more like a commentary on her low self esteem than anything that he's actually said to her. Making it less surprising that we eventually arrive at a conversation where he's like, of course I believe in you. What are you talking about? Where did you get all of these ideas? Maybe the real last five years is the therapist they both should have hired along the way. Which actually brings me very neatly to, as I promised, Secret Option C. They're both the. So I stand by a certain quantity of my defense of Jamie Wellerstein simply because I think the entirety of the relationship's doom is often laid at his feet, when in reality it's a relationship that becomes toxic. There are warning signs for this early on, there are mistakes made, but even if they began as people very much in love, they, as many of us do, shifted and evolved into people who were ultimately incompatible with each other, both because of their divergent professional trajectories by which they really each defined themselves, and also their apparent inability to effectively communicate their feelings. And you know what? Maybe that was always going to happen to two characters who sing monologue songs alone about their relationships rather than duets. I joke, but it does seem like it would be very difficult to write a version of this musical in the same structure in which the relationship goes well anyway. It is my opinion that both Jamie and Kathy in the last five years are are toxic in their own ways. I think she is responsible for some of the problems earlier in the relationship and carries in herself some of the insecurities that catalyze the really big issues that they encounter down the line, which Jamie, to his credit, responds to in just all of the worst possible ways, making fateful marriage ending decisions. Of course Those are just my thoughts and as always, I would love to hear yours. Do you agree with me that they are both the problem? Do you think it falls more on one side than the other? Have I changed your mind even a little bit about the relationship that we see in the last five years? And is there anything I've missed? Feel free to fight me in the comments. I cannot wait to read. In the meantime, thank you for listening. If you'd like to hear more of what I have to say about the world of theatre, then make sure to subscribe right here on YouTube. Turn on notifications so YouTube lets you know every time I share a new video or go follow me on podcast platforms. You can also find out all of the shows that I've been seeing as well as everything that I've been sharing online by signing up to my free weekly substack email newsletter at the link in the description. And as always, I hope that everyone is staying safe and that you have a stagey day. For 10 more seconds, I'm Mickey Jo Theatre. Oh my God. Hey, thanks for watching. Have a stagey day. Subscribe. Acast powers the world's best podcasts. Here's a show that we recommend. Do you like being educated on things that entertain but don't matter? Well, then you need to be listening to the Podcast with Knox and Jamie. Every Wednesday we put together an episode dedicated to delightful idiocy to give your brain a break from all the serious and important stuff. Whether we're deep diving a classic movie, dissecting the true meanings behind the newest slang, or dunking on our own listeners for their bad takes or cringy stories, we always approach our topics with humor and just a little bit of side eye. 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