← Mind If We Talk?
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- [00:01]
Srila Roy Greene
Today's conversation contains mentions of sexual assault and suicide. So please take care and be mindful of who is listening with you.
- [00:09]
Margaret Cho
As I started doing stand up really early, I got some success really quickly. And these kids who would like bullied me would like come to shows and pay like VIP prizes to get a meet and greet and want to like take pictures and like remember when we were school, I'm like, I go, no, I don't remember you and I don't know who you are. And the look of disappointment and shock in their faces. And I'm like, you know, but you really don't want me to remember. You really don't want me to remember you writing graffiti about me like on the walls of the school? Why would you think that I would forgive that? Hey, can I talk to you about something?
- [00:53]
Srila Roy Greene
I wish you knew. I wish you knew how lonely menopause felt. I wish you knew why it's so hard for men to share their feelings.
- [01:03]
Hope Giselle
I wish you knew what it was
- [01:04]
Srila Roy Greene
like growing up in a low income family. I wish you knew how hard it was not having a college degree. I wish you knew what it's like to be me. Welcome back to Mind if we Talk where you get to be a fly on the wall for many therapy sessions and learn some mental health tips in the process. I'm your host, Srila Roy Greene, a licensed mental health counselor with over 19 years of experience. In today's episode, I sit down with Margaret Cho, a trailblazing comedian with a career that spans more than four decades, including her 90s ABC sitcom All American Girl and five Grammy nominated comedy albums. Margaret has been an inspiration and mentor to many comedians that came up after her, including Dylan Adler, who also joins us today. Dylan is a stand up comedian, writer and actor who has written for the Late Late show with James Corden. In our conversation, Margaret and Dylan reflected on their distinct journeys with queer identity and shared how as adults they found ample support and a sense of belonging. Later in today's episode, I'm joined by Hope Giselle, a nationally recognized organizer, author and activist. Hope made history in August 2023 as the first openly black transgender woman to speak at the March on Washington. She helped me break down the psychological impact of positive representation, how bullying shapes the nervous system and how to start healing from something you were never taught to talk about. I am so excited for this one. So let's jump right in. Welcome both of you. Margaret and Dylan, thank you so much for joining us today. For mind if we talk? I want to start with you Margaret, if you could go back and talk to your past self, what wisdom would you impart on that younger version of yourself?
- [02:48]
Margaret Cho
I think it's always. It's, everything's gonna be okay. You know, I would always be very worried about what the future would bring. And, you know, I grew up in San Francisco. If there was gonna be a big earthquake, you know, like, just weird. We're, like, walking, standing in the doorway. Like, you're just, like, always worried about things. And, like, there were some awful things that happened, for sure. You know, One of my very first traumas was Harvey milk's assassination in 1978. The tragedy of that, the needless tragedy of that, so shocking because he was such an important figure in my childhood. And to go from that to the absolute, the devastation of AIDS that completely rocked the entire community that I was in. It destroyed my family's business, you know, that the loss of life and culture and people, just the friends that we love, you know, so there were reasons, valid reasons to worry. But, you know, now, coming through it, I realize I didn't have to worry so much. I didn't have to be so scared. Because we're resilient as a community, as queer people. We are endlessly resourceful and incredibly hopeful, and we're able to rise. And now we're fighting a new enemy, of course, with transphobia, which is something that I'm really putting all my energy against. But I think I have learned to stop obsessively worrying the way that I used to, and that's been a help.
- [04:29]
Srila Roy Greene
I'm so glad you shared that, because, again, I think it's one of those topics that people are. It's almost like, in the periphery or a vague awareness of that we don't actually talk about it, and it becomes a form of disenfranchised grief. So, Dylan, I want to talk to you a little bit here for a second. Was there a moment in particular where you realized that you needed someone specifically Margaret in your life?
- [04:53]
Dylan Adler
Yeah, well, getting emotional. But I also grew up in the Bay, and, you know, the Bay, you think of it sometimes as like, oh, my gosh, it must be a bastion of just like, everyone is queer, blah, blah, blah. It's like, well, actually, that I don't know. For some reason, the school I went to was very homophobic, transphobic. And I kind of relied on, like, a small group of theater kids and friends. But also, what helped me was seeing people like Margaret and hearing her comedy. Like, having a queer Asian role model, like, that was so awesome. And we, us Asian American comedians are very lucky to have Margaret. We are very lucky.
- [05:40]
Margaret Cho
I'm lucky to have you. Thank you.
- [05:42]
Dylan Adler
That's why she's Mother.
- [05:45]
Margaret Cho
Mother.
- [05:47]
Hope Giselle
Love it.
- [05:48]
Srila Roy Greene
Well, I will share personally, Margaret, I remember your show. Even though I'm from a different Asian community, I'm still part of that community. And it was interesting because for me, similarly, it was like, this is amazing. And I think that's the thing is, like, at some point we all need someone to pave the way to inspire us.
- [06:06]
Dylan Adler
And also the fact that, like, the groundbreaking Asian American community is also just a badass queer woman. I'm like, it's like, wow, lucky.
- [06:17]
Srila Roy Greene
I love it. So I wanted to go back to conflicting messages that we often get growing up from our community, from our own cultural upbringing and what is expected of us and what the norm is supposed to be like for Margaret. You, you know, you grew up around the literature and the exposure. How did that play a role for you in coming to terms with your own sense of self, your own identity?
- [06:42]
Margaret Cho
Well, I grew up around so much gay culture that it made me realize that gay was normal and that to be straight was off like that to
- [06:52]
Dylan Adler
me, like, very subversive.
- [06:54]
Margaret Cho
Yeah, heterosexuality was very subversive and very odd and, and strange. And why would you do that? Like, and so to me, queerness was the norm. We were going to go see like, John Waters movies and John Waters Film Festival. Like, that was like our art. And that was like the most normal thing. And it wasn't outsider. Everything outsider became insider. We had a newsstand, you know, inside of the bookstore, and it had all these publications, like, for trans women in their early transition. So it had ads for really big shoe sizes that you could write and get, get high heels at a real, like an 11 and a 12 size shoe and like, you know, articles about makeup and hair and how to build the woman that you were going to be from the ground up. You know, these kinds of things. That, that was so normal to me. My parents are really, really amazing because that's not their culture at all. You know, my parents came from very, very Christian, you know, immigrants. They, they came in 1964. And I think what happened was that my father's really handsome. And when he came to America, nobody regarded his as handsome because he was Korean. And we didn't have bts, we didn't have K dramas. So nobody knew that a Korean man could be handsome. And so he felt invisible, which was so shocking to him because in Korea he was so visible to everybody because he was so handsome, and he was in shock, and he couldn't get over it. And until he went to the gay neighborhoods, and then he was seen because he would turn so many heads. Everybody would look at him because he was just so gorgeous.
- [08:48]
Dylan Adler
All the rice queens were like.
- [08:49]
Margaret Cho
All the rice queens. All of the white rice queens were like, oh, my God, drop everything. You know, they were like, you know, falling all over themselves to talk to him. And he was so enamored by all the attention that he bought this bookstore because he always loved literature. He always wanted it, you know, like a place where they would have poetry readings and stuff like that. And that's what it became. And, like, he's still very vain and loves it, but it's, like, very. All of the contradictions that, you know, I come from.
- [09:19]
Srila Roy Greene
It's so funny. Again, it speaks to. We seek acceptance where we can find it, right? And it's about finding the right tribe, the right place where you can be yourself, right? And it's not always in the places that you expect it. Dylan, I want to talk to you a little bit more. You know, how did you grow to nourish yourself? Sense of self acceptance? What was that journey like for you?
- [09:40]
Dylan Adler
The funny thing was, me, I'm gay and have an identical gay twin brother. And we were both kind of, like, closeted, coming to terms with our identity, middle school and high school, and we were always kind of fighting and, you know, kind of bickering with each other. But then he was the first to come out, so he was like, actually the first sense of we are kind of of the same kin. But also, when it comes to the comedy world, you know, I had, like, Margaret Cho in my phone. I had, like, a lot of amazing queers that I looked up to, because when I started, I was kind of going to, like, comedy clubs and open mics, and I would, like. I wouldn't see very many Asian queers or people that I really felt that that had my same, like, kind of lived experience. But it was like, I think five years in, where I really found my group of queers. I feel like, for me, it just. When. When it comes to community, it sometimes takes a little bit, but you will find your people.
- [10:46]
Srila Roy Greene
Yeah, you do. You know, we're talking so much about these beautiful experiences of acceptance. I want to pivot a little bit and talk about the opposite of what that experience can be, which is, you know, feeling marginalized, feeling bullied, because that's the part where people need the most help. Have there ever been moments where you have maybe been bullied or marginalized.
- [11:08]
Margaret Cho
I mean, for me, I was bullied a lot as a child. I think that when you're queer and a kid, other kids know. It's why I loved being in the gay bookstore. It's why I loved being around adults, because I thought children were really terrifying. I just felt really, like, alternately bullied and then abandoned, you know, and then later, as I started doing stand up really early, you know, and I. I got some success really quickly. And these kids who would, like, bullied me would, like, come to shows and pay, like, VIP prices to get a meet and greet and want to, like, take pictures and, like, remember when we were school, I'm like, I go, no, I don't remember you, and I don't know who you are. And I. They the look of disappointment and shock in their faces, and I'm like, you know, but you really don't want me to remember who you are, you know, like, you really don't want me to remember you writing graffiti about me on the walls of the school. Like, you know, stuff like that. Like, why would you think that I would forgive that? I mean, that's actually really fun to, like, turn it around on high school bullies like that. I want to always encourage, like, kids who are being bullied. Like, it's gonna get so much better. Like, I love the it Gets better campaign. Like, it gets so much better. You don't even know because, like, kids who bully are, like, miserable kids, and they grow up to be miserable adults. And then they look at you, you know, the things that they bullied you for make you shine as an adult, and they see it, you know, because it's like, now we're witnesses to our. Our lives, all throughout our lives because of social media. So they'll see you shine, and they won't be able to stand it. Like, it gets better. It gets so much better. So just hang on.
- [12:52]
Dylan Adler
Agree. The bullies see what makes you shine, what makes you special, your spark, and they. And they want to squash it down. I definitely experienced that in high school, and it really was like finding a little group of theater kids and listening to people like Margaret and. And also musical theater that, like, helped me, you know, feel like, ugh, this is like, there's something else bigger out there. Actually, when I was in high school was when the it Gets better campaign happened. I definitely got bullied for, you know, being queer. And also the school I went to, it was very cool to, like, not try hard. And in class, I was, like, very much A try hard goody two shoes gay kid and gay theater kid. And, you know, the other kids, like, definitely didn't jive with that, so I would definitely get bullied a lot. But it was actually, like, I would watch those it gets better YouTube videos. I didn't even, like, admit to myself I was gay, but I would watch them because, I don't know, it just kind of, like, planted a seed. And I would watch videos of, like, other queer kids in high school being like, I just took my boyfriend to prom and I'm like, oh, my God, you're in freaking Syracuse, New York. I'm in San Francisco. But those really did, like. It was a seed of, like, hope. And. And those are very, very important messages for young queer kids. I really, like, needed those videos, and those meant a lot to me.
- [14:31]
Srila Roy Greene
As you were sharing that, Dylan, I was thinking, my daughter, actually, who started, you know, in. She's in middle school, and she started doing musical theater in their school, and, you know, she found her tribe there in many ways. I want to go back to something that you said, Margaret, about finding what makes you shine, cutting through the hatred. Can you think back to that moment that. That challenged you to be that way?
- [14:59]
Margaret Cho
I knew that I wanted to be a comedian really, really young. Like, I knew that was my job. I was, like, going out and doing comedy shows at, like, 14, 15, 16. Like, that's, like, so crazy to me. Like, I don't know what I was doing or why I thought that it would work, but I just wanted to be an adult. And I was really also very lucky because the comedy community really was very warm and accepting and excited to give me work, like, right away. So by the end of my teens, I was making a pretty comfortable living enough so that I could live on my own. My parents weren't too concerned about it because I was on television, you know, Like, I think normally they would have been really distraught because they're, you know, even though they were very progressive, I mean, their main focus was they wanted me to go to an Ivy League, and that was not going to happen. But the fact that I was on television doing Evening at the Improv was, like, enough to sort of waylay any concern. But I. Yeah, I'm amazed at the young person that I was, that I had so much confidence and just moxie also. Everybody was male, everybody was white, Everybody's in their 40s. It's so weird. Like, I just demanded that I be part of their world, and it worked.
- [16:25]
Dylan Adler
Yeah, I would die. I would die to hear, like, you on stage, like, what were you talking about when you were 14?
- [16:32]
Margaret Cho
So a lot of the comics were doing jokes about Asian drivers. So then I. By the time I would get on stage, I would just say, my name is Margaret Cho and I drive very well. And it was the guilt that would, like, roll. Roll through the room at the white guilt of like, oh, my God, she's been listening to us laugh at all this all night. Like, we're so sorry. We're so sorry. And then I would really get their attention. And then I was just talking about, like, my mom, you know, and, like, what she was thinking about, like, me doing comedy and stuff like that, and, like, early kind of observations of being in this world of adults. And that's kind of like what, you know, what my early comedy was like. And then it sort of developed as I grew older, but I grew up with it.
- [17:14]
Dylan Adler
That's amazing, right?
- [17:15]
Hope Giselle
I was.
- [17:16]
Srila Roy Greene
You stole my words, Dylan. I was gonna say, that's pretty incredible.
- [17:19]
Margaret Cho
I need a recording.
- [17:20]
Hope Giselle
Amazing.
- [17:21]
Dylan Adler
When I first did comedy, I was pretty much doing Margaret Cho drag.
- [17:26]
Hope Giselle
Good.
- [17:26]
Margaret Cho
That's good. I love it.
- [17:29]
Srila Roy Greene
I am gonna touch a little bit on comedy, and I think in life in general, is that we have to kind of look at painful experiences sometimes, and that helps inform our work. I'd be lying to say, you know, as a therapist, if I didn't say that there were painful moments in my own life that inspired me to become a therapist. How do you feel you have used your pain to help inform how you approach your fields now?
- [17:58]
Margaret Cho
Well, I mean, it's like, you know, comedy comes out of a need for hope. Like, all comedy, all humor, stems for a need to rise above a situation and look for the hopeful solution. And so that's what humor is. It's like, how do we keep on able to live well, we can look at something hopeful and laugh about it, and then we have a renewed sense of possibility. Like, I mean, think about, like, what laughter is. It's an unexpected intake of breath. It's almost yoga. Like, you didn't know you were going to breathe in, but somebody said something and you breathed in. Because it was so shocking or alarming or surprising or funny, you breathed in, and that ensures life for you for the next few seconds and injects you with this oxygen, this hope, this lift that was not planned for. The impetus is going towards a light. And so that. That's what it all is, you know, in the very basic form.
- [19:07]
Srila Roy Greene
Dylan, what are your thoughts?
- [19:08]
Dylan Adler
Oh, 1,000%. When you talk about things that that held on previous shame. They just really help move you through that. They help just, you know, it is exactly. That is exactly moving you to the next breath. I know, like the Japanese side of my family, it. Humor was huge. And if you made my grandpa at the. My mom said if you made Ojichan laugh at the dinner table, you won that whole night.
- [19:34]
Srila Roy Greene
You know, what would you say to somebody who is going through, let's say, a difficult time, who are considering asking for help, let's say going to therapy.
- [19:43]
Margaret Cho
Mental health is really helped by other opinions, you know, and like, you. You realize, like, you can get trapped in your own well of despair and thinking. And that's been my problem. Like, I just get trapped in my head and then when I'm able to speak to somebody else about it and. And I think also you should sort of like, select that person. Well, I mean, if it's a professional or if it's a, you know, you want somebody that can make sense of it. You know, it depends on how things are going. But if you're in a really dark place, it's best to find somebody really positive. And then, you know, the great thing is that you can do that with a professional where it's not a huge burden to sort of like, release all this information. That feels very scary.
- [20:33]
Dylan Adler
100% agree. I think. You know, I don't think the finding humor in the situation and reaching out for help are mutually exclusive. I think those things can inform each other and help each other. You know, one of the most healing things for me, I wrote a show with my friend Kelly Bachman, who, Margaret, I think you also know, called Rape Victims Are Horny Too. You know, I've been doing therapy for a while with someone, and it was very helpful. But writing that show with her and being in community with her and sharing experiences about how people around us reacted or just like, what we would feel like maybe invalidated. Like, we both were like, oh, my God. Yeah, we actually had a therapist who, like, brushed aside what we were trying to, like, tell them to, and then trying to find, like, levity and humor in that was. Was one of my, like, favorite experiences I ever had. So I don't think reaching out for help and. And finding humor are actually separate.
- [21:34]
Srila Roy Greene
Yeah, a lot of the comedy clips I watch or shows on occasion that I come across, therapy has become actually a part of the set. And I actually, as a therapist find it really humorous because in a good way, because it. It's being talked about. Like, yes, I go to therapy, and yes, you can go to therapy too, you know, what would your advice be to the queer individuals out there who are still trying to come to terms with who they are?
- [22:05]
Margaret Cho
Look for the helpers. Like, look for people that are like out there to help. I just saw this beautiful thing today on social media and it was a hairdresser who was having a workshop at his salon for trans women to show them how to use tools, to show them how to use flat irons and curling irons and like, what a beautiful thing to do to just like welcome people into your salon and just show them so there's like no shame around it and there's no like weird, like caught. It's like free, but like just it. That's like such a beautiful way to be of service to people who are kind of like looking. And I've definitely done that for trans women. I've, you know, I'm not a makeup artist, but I've like shared what I know. I know some things, so I've been able to help them in their journey because they, like, you know, when you're so early in your transition, you don't know who to ask, you don't know what to do and you just don't want to look like you don't know what you're doing. And so it's scary. But I, I was able to make it really fun. And you know, we were able to share that, like those first initial exciting moments of girlhood together. And so I think it's about, like, try to find people like that. Like, try to find people who are excited to help.
- [23:32]
Dylan Adler
Love that 1000%. Go where it feels warm. Go where it feels good. That's, that's like how I felt when I was in high school listening to Margaret's comedy.
- [23:44]
Srila Roy Greene
Yeah, definitely. And bringing others up when you've been in their shoes, right? Like not only. And then like returning that service, you know, paying that forward where you can be of service to after the experiences that maybe you've had too. Do you think that quite queer self expression has changed generationally?
- [24:03]
Margaret Cho
It's more like the technological changes in the way that we express ourselves. You know, like before we would make like in the 90s, we would make zines and like have bulletin boards and like, you know, go and have like events in like a coffee house or something. Like it was, it was so irl, like it was so lo fi. It was so analog real life. And now so much self expression is made on social media and in connecting with other people like you on social media and witnessing Other people like you. On social media, it is totally different, although the impetus isn't the same. Like, we still want community. We still want to be political. We still want progressive, forward action. But the way that we're going about it is like, we're not as much walking out on the street and as much as we are, you know, letting our fingers do the talking and walking.
- [25:01]
Srila Roy Greene
That's a great point. Yeah. Dylan, what are your thoughts?
- [25:05]
Dylan Adler
That's true, because a lot of my close people who I consider community are people who I actually met online and also someone who's like a big mentor to me. Atsuko is someone who I met and was a fan of online. I. It's funny because I listened to Margaret's material about queers, and she recorded that in, like, 2001. I, like, listen and just, like, cackle because I'm like, yes, the gays are like, queers have always been. Have been like that. But I guess you're right. It's. The technology is what has changed.
- [25:46]
Srila Roy Greene
It's almost like regardless of technology, that interconnectedness is still there. That connection is still there. You know, there's still a sense of community. There's still a sense of allyship and a sense of awareness that is still part of the community. And I think, Margaret, you spoke to that beautifully earlier, where it's just like, from birth until the end of time now, it's like everything's recorded, everything exists. It's very hard to lose track of each other. And that can be such a beautiful thing, too, especially when you need that sense of community and can continue to have that safe space that we can all have. I just wanted to say thank you again to Margaret and to Dylan for being here. Truly enjoyed and appreciated having both of you here to talk about this, and just such a pleasure.
- [26:32]
Margaret Cho
Thank you.
- [26:33]
Dylan Adler
Thank you so much. I'm so happy and honored to be here with literal mother.
- [26:39]
Margaret Cho
So mother. Love you. Love you. Thank you, you.
- [26:45]
Srila Roy Greene
Hearing Margaret and Dylan talk about their bond is such a beautiful reminder of how vital mentorship and community are. They show us that while the scars of being bullied can linger, finding the people who warm you up and celebrate your spark is what ultimately allows you to shine. Now, to help me unpack their conversation, I'm sitting down with activist and author Hope Giselle. We'll talk about what bullying does to the nervous system, what it feels like to make history on the steps of the March on Washington, and the exact words you need to say to yourself to start healing from hidden trauma. We also answered some listener questions you all asked us, so stick around to hear those. Remember, if you want to write into our show, check out BetterHelp's Instagram stories for the latest prompt. You may hear your own question answered in a future episode. Let's dive in. Thank you so much for being here today. I really want to just dive in here and get your perspective on what do you think happens to an individual on a psychological level, especially a young queer person, when they don't see themselves positively reflected in the world around them.
- [27:52]
Hope Giselle
Well, you have one of two things that can happen, right? There are folks like me who will do their best to become those models of those things that we didn't see because we recognize that that is a supply and demand. Right? But then there's also unfortunate side where you have folks who don't see themselves represented and so they fall into the status quo and the stereotypes of what the media tells them that they have to be, which oftentimes for queer folks, and especially when you add on the layers of intersection that go along with being a queer black or brown person, it doesn't leave you a lot of options. Right. And so there's a lot of unsavory characters that tend to prey on that. And there are a lot of folks who have just also become jaded and that's become their reality. And so they preach to that to these kids. And I think that while both of those things are options, I wish that more people chose, you know, that first one, but just to become the thing that they don't see rather than lean into the stereotype.
- [28:47]
Srila Roy Greene
Right. And I think my experience is especially as therapist, but also on a, on a personal level, and we're in dealing with kind of my own social circle, family members, et cetera, has been. It shifts. There's either that, you know, what you speak so spoke about with the latter, which is I need to be part of the status quo and I can't be me. And then a later shift in awareness where they're like, okay, this is where I'm at. This is what I need to do now. You know, and then almost like this guilt about like, but I betrayed my sense of self for so long before this. Why didn't I just do it sooner? Why wasn't I braver sooner? What are your thoughts on how that push and pull impacts identity formation or a sense of self worth?
- [29:34]
Hope Giselle
Ooh, you know, the way that society will have you form, right. Is that we all have this traditional experience or what's supposed to be a traditional experience? As teenagers, as youth. And during that time period, we are dating and we're exploring and our parents are oftentimes encouraging that if it's a whole, a heteronormative experience, at least, right? And what happens is that oftentimes that normal experience for a heteronormative child is not often passed off to that queer experience for that queer child. And so there's already a layer of development that, you know, queer kids fall short on just because they are queer. And then we think about what it means to also not see that reflected anywhere else. So it's like you don't have a personal connection to this experience because you weren't allowed to have it vis a vis your parents or your cultural or your religious background. And then on top of that, you don't even have an outlet to go and say, well, I was able to watch this show where this character was at least embodying what a healthy version of that looks like. I remember watching Degrassi for the first time when I was about 16 years old and seeing the character Marco, essentially DL boyfriend, right? He's dating this guy that was on the football team, and nobody knew. But then they found out, and they were so able to have this beautiful couple and relationship. And so I got to see a character on TV that was a young queer boy that did get the star of the football team. And everybody at school was happy with it. And even if that wasn't something that I foresaw being my reality, I at least saw a world and a universe where it existed. And I think that that helped me with being able to cope with the fact that I wasn't going to have that as a part of my high school experience. But I knew that somewhere, because this storyline had been written, that. That it was a part of someone's storyline, right? And that gave me the hope. And so I think that when we think about what it means to not have both the experience lived and then also not see that representation, I think that those things go twofold, right? If you don't see them, if it's not a possibility, and if you're not seeing those possibility models lived out in other people, it becomes a thing that almost feels impossible. And then we lean into the idea of those other dysphoric moments where we start to believe that we're unworthy of love and unworthy of, you know, a regular teenage experience. And I think that those are things that we're trying to combat by affirming folks and affirming our youth specifically.
- [32:07]
Srila Roy Greene
No I agree with you wholeheartedly. One of the things that Margaret talked about in this episode was growing up in an environment where queerness was normalized. So going to the other side, right, like, where queerness was normalized, heterosexuality actually felt like other. Where do you think the line is between what's normal, quote, versus shameful in our environments? With that said, you know, you founded Alabama State's first group for LGBTQ students. Yeah. Tell me a little bit about what the experience was like for you to create that safe space.
- [32:40]
Hope Giselle
You know, I got so much hell for that. And I remember when I went to go fill out the paperwork for one of the things that they used to deter me was to say that the first group didn't last because the football players came to the first meeting and, like, basically threw pizza at the first ever, like, queer group that tried to form on the campus years ago in the 90s. And it was almost as if I were being warned and also being warned that I wouldn't be protected if this were to happen again. So essentially, it was just like, you can start the club at your own risk, but this is what happened last time, and we are not sure how helpful we're gonna be this time, you know? And I couldn't help but to think about the fact that I was creating something that was necessary for the queer kids on campus. It was necessary for me on campus. A couple of weeks before, really buckling down on the idea, I was sitting in a window in my dorm room wanting to jump out of the fifth floor. And that was my reality on that campus. And I sat there with my feet dangling out of this window and people looking up at me. Nobody going to get a teacher, just looking up at me, you know? And at one point, I had somebody who I know was joking, but, you know, as a jerk who just kind of walked by and was just like, jump and do a flip and didn't stop walking. And being snatched out of that window by the Director of Student affairs put me in a space where I reminded myself that if I was going to be here, I was going to feel like I belonged here, even if it were in a small space. And so creating amplified and amplifying the voices of the queer kids on campus who wanted to be open, who wanted to be loud, who wanted to have a space to feel like we belonged. It meant something to me, and it was beautiful to watch it continue to flourish even after I graduated and to see what it became. And watching them have their first lavender graduation and just all of those Beautiful things. It meant so much to me. And even hearing from some of the graduates over the years, that just feels really great because I became the change that I wanted to see.
- [34:52]
Srila Roy Greene
I really appreciate you touching on such a vulnerable moment that you experienced, but then also the importance of that moment for you and how life changing it was for you, and really just putting it out there for those that are listening that there is hope. You're not alone, and that's not the answer. You know, you have a life that's worth living. So really appreciate that. Thank you for sharing that, you know, so many people out there and so important to use the resources that are out there. You know, I know that you know. And as we're speaking about this, are there specific ones for our listeners to keep in mind as they are struggling and where they can go to for help that come to mind for you?
- [35:37]
Hope Giselle
Yeah. So definitely you have the Trevor Project, and I think that the Transgender Law Center, I think, is also a great resource. You know, it's one thing for us to talk about the mental health portion, but we often don't talk about how to get justice after our mental health is now sustained. And so I think that navigating both of those things, after you've been able to pull yourself back together, sometimes it's necessary to sit down with someone and see if there is justice that should be derived from this, because we don't deserve to have to go through mental anguish without some sort of repercussion to the people that might have caused that if we don't have to.
- [36:13]
Srila Roy Greene
Absolutely. I do want to talk a little bit about a very another aspect of this that is so important, which is bullying. But specifically within this vein, how do you feel bullying impacts adolescents, how it shapes their nervous system? What kind of an significant impact can bullying have, especially on a forming brain?
- [36:37]
Hope Giselle
Bullying can put you in a position where you're always on guard. I think that a lot of folks will look at adult trans people and they think that we're always just aggressive and that we're always just mean. And I ask you to remember that the trans adult that you're talking to was once that trans kid that got called every name in the book. And so I think that people need to be mindful of the fact that bullying is not just this thing that stops because you turn 16 and your acne clears up and, you know, you get a couple of curves or a couple of muscles, and now everything is great. No, you're going to always remember when you were the brace face kid. You're going to always remember when you had a little bit of extra weight on you, because for five or four years of your life, every single day. Was that because someone chose to make your life a living hell for it? And if you haven't gotten over it, imagine a queer kid who couldn't hide their queerness and then came to know their transness. They've been going through this since they were five.
- [37:38]
Srila Roy Greene
Yep.
- [37:38]
Hope Giselle
And now they're 35, and you're harassing them in a 711 line about where they might have gotten their boobs done. And you wonder why she might be a bit aggressive.
- [37:51]
Srila Roy Greene
And I think that's the piece. Right. It lingers, it holds, it stays with us. It's like a. You know, it's a wound, it heals, but it never goes away. There's always a scar left there, and it stays with you for the rest of your life. You know, one of the things Margaret shared when we were speaking is that she turned those bullying experiences into an opportunity for her to shine and flipped it. And, you know, it goes back to authenticity. Why do you think it is that that authenticity and individuality are something that's looked down upon?
- [38:24]
Hope Giselle
Because everybody is so comfortable in not having to face judgment or critique, that being different is something to be looked down on because it's like, if I've decided to be mundane, you cannot have more fun with your autonomy than I am having with mine. I think that there are some folks whose jealousy comes out in the form of bigotry, comes out in the form of bullying. A lot of it is just the lack of ability to understand that your freedom is your own to claim.
- [38:56]
Srila Roy Greene
And it's very hard to get to that place where you finally become, I don't want to say fearless, but there is a degree of fearlessness that has to happen to say, no, this is who I am. This is part of who I am. And there's so much more to me, and I need to be okay with that, because we aren't like, there isn't one facet to us. We are multifaceted as human beings. Right. And so we can't just say that this is only one aspect of my identity. There's so much to what makes me me to follow up to that. Do you think that there is something schools or parents can also be doing differently or better?
- [39:30]
Hope Giselle
There's so many things going on with our schools right now that putting teachers in even more uncompromising positions just doesn't seem fair. You know, these are folks that I believe Got into the business because they wanted to help shape our minds. They want to be able to help to build some of the folks that are going to create brighter futures. But things have become so political that a person who is just trying to help can be fired for just trying to help, for a misunderstanding. For a parent who doesn't agree with, you know, another parent's child, having space in a classroom to be themselves, you know, and so I believe that there are things that maybe we. I wish that teachers could be comfortable doing, but I want to also prioritize the safety and well being of the people who are still shaping these minds. I think as parents, though, as far as parents go, we have to be mindful of understanding the world that we live in and the world that we want to live in and being able to navigate what it looks like to teach our kids that, that there's a world that we are striving for. We have not reached a point in time where that's the world that we currently live in. And sometimes we do a disservice to our kids by not letting them know that there are two worlds that they have to navigate simultaneously. And that's the world that I've created to keep you safe and the world that I've put you into because you need to have it for basic survival. And while in some spaces there are gonna be moments where they feel eerily similar, I don't ever want you to be confused that they are, because they're not.
- [41:13]
Srila Roy Greene
I think you touched on something so important. What's here is not necessarily the truth of out there. So be careful, you know, but find your safe people, you know, find your safe spaces. Don't not be you.
- [41:27]
Margaret Cho
Right.
- [41:27]
Srila Roy Greene
And be educated to the best of your ability. And I especially say this for the parents who may be navigating this with their own children and are open and accepting, but maybe not knowledgeable. Ask questions, find allies, get to know people within that community so that you can speak to your children, so you can relate, read about it, you know, watch the podcast. Like, you can at least say, I have your back. I just don't know enough about it. And I know, I know that just being that vulnerable as a parent is an extremely important move because in that moment, your child is seeing that vulnerability and being able to say, oh, at least my parent has my back and their child can be your teacher. You know, we learn from our kids too, you know, and sometimes that's the best thing that we can do. I do want to kind of get to a Couple of listener questions, but I also want to focus on the concept of healing our wounds.
- [42:24]
Hope Giselle
Yeah.
- [42:24]
Srila Roy Greene
You know, what are your thoughts on how creativity can help people manage shame trauma, help them reach a place of healing?
- [42:34]
Hope Giselle
You know, I think that there is nothing more beautiful than creative juices flowing and getting things going. When I was in elementary school, I actually brought the concept of a talent show to my school. And the day of the show, I did not have anything to really wear, and I was performing to Destiny's Child Survivor, and I had a very amazing drama teacher, Ms. Michelle Rieu, who I recently was reunited with after 2020 years. My God. At my tour, and she gave me this Tinkerbell costume, and I got up there, and I performed Survivor by myself as a little black queer boy. And the energy that I got from most of the people in the audience was so exhilarating, and it reminded me that that's how I wanted to feel for the rest of my life.
- [43:30]
Srila Roy Greene
Mm. I love that. I love that. Aside from your talent show, are there any other moments of when you've, like, had this, like, aha, healing moment for yourself since that time that you can share about?
- [43:46]
Hope Giselle
I was the first black trans woman to speak at the March on Washington. It was the 60th anniversary year, and it was also the year where the docu film where Colman Domingo starred as Bayard Restaurant came out. And so I remember having all of this nostalgia and feeling like there was this weight on my shoulders that I was holding because this giant helped to organize one of the largest civil rights actions ever and was told that he could not speak because he was a homosexual. And I just felt like, as a black trans woman and as the first one to do this, I was speaking for every queer black person that didn't make it because they got bullied the day before. And I think that that's definitely a moment I'll never forget in my creative process.
- [44:40]
Srila Roy Greene
And you carried so many hopes and dreams, and you spoke for so many people in that moment. You were represented so much in that moment, and I can only imagine how healing that must have also been for you to go through. Yeah. In the interest of time, have a couple of last questions, and these are our listener questions. Do you mind if we talk? Why do I still seek validation from people who remind me of those who rejected me?
- [45:07]
Hope Giselle
Because there's a need to often fill that hole. Just because that person no longer serves you, it doesn't mean that the energy that you sought from them is not something that would still heal you. I just Believe that it's about putting it into a vessel that has the energy but the altar, but also has the output to give you what you need. Right. All of the things that you are seeking in the people that you're allowing to be toxic to you is often because we believe that in order to feel this feeling, it has to also come with the disrespect. It has to come with the devolvement of who I am as a human being. It has to come with the disregard for my time, my sanctity, my spirit, all of the things that make me me. And that really put me in position to be able to do these things for you. And it doesn't. We just attached it to this person who behaves that way. But what happens when you are reminded that this behavior can also come with affirmation, with love, with care, with respect, with onus of time and interest? Right. That changes and shifts the narrative.
- [46:06]
Srila Roy Greene
Absolutely. One thing I will often tell my clients is that why ask yourself, why does this feel so familiar? Oh, are we in trouble? And that should raise the not. Not yellow, not orange. That should raise the red flag to bring us to our awareness that if this is feeling too familiar and not in a good way, then I probably should go in the other direction. Right. But that's what happens sometimes, is because we. We got used to it. Oh, I love this question. Of course, I'm a therapist, so I'm gonna love this question. How do you start healing from something you were taught to never talk about?
- [46:41]
Hope Giselle
Ooh.
- [46:41]
Srila Roy Greene
Ooh.
- [46:42]
Hope Giselle
You know, I think that first and foremost, you have to be able to talk about it with yourself. A lot of people want to run straight to their therapist, but if you haven't even found the words to say to yourself, what's happening? You are not going to be able to convey that to someone else. And so you're going to spend months in therapy talking about everything except the topic that you're trying to get through. And I think that it's going to be important enough for you to sit with yourself and meditate on it. Meditate through it. Start with one word. Start with the first word, even if that word is I. If the whole sentence is I was sexually assaulted at that party, start with I and say I every morning until you can get through that sentence. Oftentimes, the first step is being able to admit to yourself that something happened to you so that that way someone else can help you work through the why, the what, the what next.
- [47:38]
Srila Roy Greene
It's so true. You know, therapists don't have a magic wand and they can't read your mind even in just being your authentic self. And to be able to have informed relationships, there has to be that I conversation, right? I am this, I have this, this is who I am in this way. And hope I have to say what an honor and what a pleasure it has been to spend this time with you, really love your work and everything that you're doing and really appreciate you being here on Mind if We Talk Today?
- [48:07]
Hope Giselle
Thank you so much.
- [48:10]
Srila Roy Greene
This is an ad by BetterHelp. In this episode we're talking about identity, self expression and the journey toward self acceptance. For many of us, navigating spaces where our true selves aren't fully accepted can leave deep emotional scars, trauma and a sense of isolation. Being able to open up up these wounds with the right support can help you move past the temporary feeling of despair to start healing. Therapy can help you navigate conversations like these, especially when you're trying to communicate across differences without losing connection. BetterHelp makes it easy to get the support you deserve. Visit betterhelp.com mindifwetalk for 10% off that's better. H E L p.com mindifwetalk I want to give a big thank you to BetterHelp for their passion for this project and for giving us a platform to do champion the well being in all of us. Mind if We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with Better Help and hosted by me, Sri La Green. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review in Spotify or Apple podcasts and share the episode with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life and remember your happiness matters. Mind if We Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.