← Mind If We Talk?
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- [00:00]
A
Researchers in this space of positive psychology often talk about what's known as the arrival fallacy, this idea that I'll be happy when I'll be happy when I get the new house. I'll be happy when I get that promotion. I'll be happy when I get the new relationship. And the sad thing is that we're usually not as happy as we think based on those accomplishments. And even when we get the accomplishments, we're not usually as happy for as long as we assume. And then that raises a question of like, okay, well then what does move the needle?
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B
Hey, can I talk to you about something? I wish you knew. I wish you knew how lonely menopause felt. I wish you knew why it's so hard for men to share their feelings. I wish you knew what it was like growing up in a low income family. I wish you knew how hard it
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A
was not having a college degree.
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B
I wish you knew what it's like to be me. Welcome back to Mind if We Talk where you get to be a fly on the wall for many therapy sessions and learn some mental health tips in the process. I'm your host, Srila Roy Green, a licensed mental health counselor with over 19 years of experience. Today's episode is about finding the right tools to feel better in your everyday life. And boy, do I have a great guest for you. I'm talking with the one and only Dr. Laurie Santos, a rock star cognitive scientist and professor. Beyond her work teaching and researching at Yale, Dr. Santos hosts a massively popular podcast, the Happiness Lab, and was voted one of Popular Science magazine's Brilliant 10 Young Minds. She has reached over four and a half million people through her free online course on the science of well being. Together, Dr. Santos and I discuss why success doesn't always equal happiness, how to balance happiness and mental health, especially, especially in the age of AI and much, much more. Let's get into it. Well, thank you so much for Joining us today, Dr. Santos, on this episode of Mind if We Talk as we wrap up this season. And I think this is just one of those topics that is so important right now, especially in the climate that we're in with the increased use and awareness of AI and mental health and how we need to use it, what makes sense in terms of like being responsible and having somebody like you here as an expert is so valuable to us and our time and for especially our listeners who are tuning in because I think that this is really on everyone's mind right now.
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A
You're excited to chat more. This is, I mean so many of my students are thinking about these things, you know, on the daily. Right. So I get why this is so important. I'm just so happy that we're having conversations about it.
- [02:38]
B
Absolutely. In all seriousness, you know, we're in a very incredible time in, I think, human history where there's these advancements and we're going in this amazing direction. But with that said, you know, we at Better Help, we believe in responsible AI. You know, my big concern as a practitioner now, with 20 years as a therapist under my belt, is, you know, maintaining a degree of human connection and responsibly using AI. And what does that, if you will, marriage look like and how do we proceed?
- [03:09]
A
Yeah, I mean, I think there's a couple of things to consider. One of the things I think a lot about, especially when people are asking AI for help and for kind of advice and sort of therapeutic benefits and so on, is just like, whether or not the AI is delivering in the same way that a human therapist might. Right. And one of the things I think we haven't talked a lot about is just the idea that so many of the LLMs that are out there right now, many of the AI tools that folks tend to be using to ask for advice, they tend to be a little sycophantic, right? We notice this in the work context, right, where it's like, oh, my gosh, what a great question, or like, what a wonderful idea you have for your email, whatever. But we forget that that can be potentially problematic in the advice domain or in the therapy domain. And there was a really interesting science paper that just came out looking at this, which asked this question, what happens when AI is, you know, you're bringing AI a problem, maybe even an ethical problem or something that you're the dilemma that you're facing. And it just says, oh, my gosh, you did exactly the right thing. So what these folks did was they went on a subreddit called Am I the A hole? I don't know if folks are listening, are familiar with Reddit, but it's people who write in, they're like, yes. So it's like, I did this thing. Am I in the wrong here? What's going on? And if you're a fan of the subreddit like I am, you know that you get a lot of nuanced responses. The folks who write in will say, like, no, no, you're in the right. But oftentimes they'll be like, well, I don't know. But this one part of it, you could have done this differently and so on. What these researchers found is that when you ask LLMs, when you present LLMs with these same am I the a hole problems, the LLMs disproportionately, like multiple times, say, oh no, no, you're fine. Like way more than a human would. 40 times the rate they say you didn't do anything wrong.
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B
Wow.
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A
But interestingly, when they survey people afterwards, what happens is that when an LLM tells you, no, no, no, you're fine, you didn't do anything wrong, then people are less likely to apologize, less likely to act pro social in that situation, more likely to stick to their guns and not negotiate with somebody in this kind of ethical situation. And so there's a real worry that when we're asking advice from AI without the human touch, right, without the kind of ethical, responsible AI tools in there, what we might be getting is a sycophantic that says, no, you're perfect, nothing wrong with you, you know, carry on. And that might not be the kind of nudge we need. You know, a great therapist will tell you, you know, I don't think you really handle that well, or I think there's another way to look at it. They'll do it in a very compassionate way, in a very coaching way, in a very evidence based way. But hopefully a good therapist is pushing back. And there's a real worry that at least again, some of the LLM AI tools that people are just using to like, you know, go on ChatGPT and ask, you know, did I handle this right or something, they might not be giving the advice that we need. And so that's thing number one I worry about with AI tools is that in their attempt to please us, they might be preventing us from having the hard conversations, having the difficult but necessary apologies that we need in so many of our social relationships. But at the same time, we're also in some ways losing the opportunities for connection, Right. Sometimes we think of the alternative of asking AI as being, you know, asking a professional therapist. But it could be, you know, asking our mom, asking our best friend, asking our spouse. And while we don't want to be, you know, pestering our spouses and our friends and our moms with every potential problem that comes up. You know, that's why we pay therapists sometimes for simple things, we actually do wanna ask that question and ask for help. You know, there's so many studies in social psychology showing that when you ask someone for help, it makes them feel better, right? Kind of gives them a happiness boost because they get to help you back. And it strengthens relationships. And I've been seeing just ever so subtly of friends who talk about asking AI tools for so many things, advice, but just all kinds of stuff. Just how it's subtly eroding the human connections. I'll just give one example. You know, recently I was just like making cookies and I was thinking about substitution of like, you know, do I gotta stick with, you know, butter or shortening or something? And normally in that situation I would like text my mom and be like, mom, do you know, like the shortening, like, can I swap it out with butter or something? But I found myself gravitating towards LLMs, right? Because it was easier and faster. I didn't know if my mom would be on her phone. I didn't want to bother her. But like, that little text would have turned into, oh, what are you making cookies for? And I could say, oh, I'm going to, you know, a summer party, you know, oh, who's the birthday? And we would have had a conversation. She would have known more about what was going on in my life. We would have felt a little bit more connected and I would have given her a little bit of a boost that she felt needed. And so all these subtle moments where we're pulling the advice away from real people towards these LLMs, we're missing out on the relationship benefits. And that's a personal one. I think we need to pay attention to these really subtle and often unfortunately invisible opportunity costs that we miss out on when we're only turning to AI tools, right? And to ask the question, is there a way to get the. Again, so many benefits that we get from the knowledge that these tools have, but also maintaining the human connection at the same time.
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B
Absolutely. I mean, I can't agree with you more. You know, I was just thinking as you were speaking about how the problem solving ability, right, the trying something over and over and over again, because that's actually what helps the art, the science behind the brain, right? Like there is a science to, when we learn, right? We have to make mistakes along the way and maybe not do it perfectly the first time and everything. And now, like, I look at my kids and they're growing up in a different era. Fair enough. But they're, mommy, can I Google something? And I'm like, no, you have a book kind of trying to encourage a different way of critical thinking because otherwise if you don't use it, you lose it. So I guess the next question is, in what ways do you feel like human connection is Connected to our feelings of happiness or sense of contentedness.
- [09:01]
A
Yeah, I think there's just so much evidence that you basically can't be very happy unless you're feeling very socially connected. There's a super famous paper in our field by Ed Diener and Marty Seligman called Very Happy People. And they ask the question, okay, people who self report being very happy, what are they doing differently from other people? And you find that it's mainly two things. One is that they're physically spending more time around other people and they're prioritizing time with the people that they care about. Pretty much every available study of happy people suggests that happy people are more social. Right. Like they're just spending time and interacting with others, whether it be close relationships or even these weak ties. You know, chatting with the barista at the coffee shop, like having a little chit chat with your Uber driver on the way to your next destination. These little simple social interactions seem to matter for us a lot too. The problem is that social interaction has a little bit of friction. Right. So it's sometimes hard to engage in. Right. If I'm texting my mom, I don't know if she's gonna be there and there's a certain uncertainty, or if I'm talking with the barista, I don't know if the barista wants to chat with me back. There's a little bit of anxiety about, am I gon, you know, interrupt this person's day or do they not want to chat? Right. By nature, other people are just uncertain because they have their own perspectives and thoughts and feelings and preferences and so on. But I think that the ease with which we can talk to other tools or just entertain ourselves so that we don't have to get social connection because we pick up our phone and can kind of scroll through and not interact with another human. We're missing out on these essential moments for building our social connection. It really is that relationships matter so much for our happiness and our mental health. And we're connecting, avoiding them and sometimes at our peril.
- [10:36]
B
Yeah, I agree. You know, just the other day, as you were saying that, I was thinking about, I was running some errands and I saw this woman with her child. They were getting into their car. I was getting into my car and she was stunning, Absolutely stunning. And so I was like, I'm going to compliment her, you know, putting my car back. And I was like, excuse me. And I could see for a moment and why I bring this up as an example, I saw in that Moment. Like a flash of like what? Right?
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A
Like is she gonna bother me or she gonna. Yeah, right, right.
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B
Am I gonna say something? And I remember catching her and being like, ma', am, you are stunning. That dress looks amazing on you. And you know what? I saw the look on her face in that moment as I said that to her. And I could tell just in that moment, I made her day, which was the goal, right? Like that was my goal, is I want this woman to, you know, feel like a queen today. But in that moment, I saw that initial flash of what? Like that question. And I was just like, nope, I am literally just going to pay you a compliment because you are stunning. And I'm going to move on with my day and you are going to move on with your day and you're going to feel amazing with that. Right? But I think why I bring up that example is because to your point of what you said earlier, when we do something good for others and when we're there for them, that brings us joy too, right?
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A
And it's that connection, I mean, even telling the story right now, watching you smile and kind of via to it, you're feeling good even days later, right?
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B
I brought myself joy by making them feel joyous, right? And I think we forget that because we're so wrapped up in the, you know, again, the fast paced nature of our world and relying on a tool to bring us those answers sometimes. And, and which brings me to my next piece too. You know, when we're living in a world where we get instant everything, right? It's immediate, it's constant, you know, where do you think we can find human support? Where do we navigate building and filling those gaps?
- [12:31]
A
I know, it's really tricky, right? Because again, it's so easy to go on the LM, you know, unless the ChatGPT site is down, ChatGPT is gonna be there at 2 in the morning when I'm feeling anxious and I don't wanna like, you know, nudge my husband and wake him up and talk about what I'm feeling anxious about or maybe when my therapist isn't on call as much. Right? And so I think we need to recognize that it is the case that there's less friction using some of tools than there is asking for help, asking for advice with another person. But the benefits might be even bigger. This is a thing that I think my students come up with all the time, right? Is that if there's no other human available, then definitely these tools are super helpful. I had this one time, again, the Late night, you're up, feeling anxious. I shouldn't text a friend or something like that because it's three in the morning. Okay. I can use Claude to talk to me about something, but. But if it's 2 o' clock in the afternoon and I'm with a friend or I could connect with someone, the benefits that I get from connecting with that other person would be a lot better. But I need to sit with and overcome the friction of that. I need to sit with and overcome the uncertainty of, am I bothering somebody? That flash that the woman gave you in the parking lot, that flash might happen if I text somebody, hey, are you available to chat? It might be like, oh, what's it about? It might not be the immediate sycophantic response, like urgently, that's telling me that I've done the right thing. And that's the kind of urgency that I think we're just not sitting with anymore. It gets back to the things that you were talking about with your kids and the stress of doing the paper. Some of that is just sitting with. I don't know the answer to this right now. That's an uncomfortable feeling that we have to sit with. I don't know if I'm bothering somebody. I think all the research tells me I'm probably not. And all my history shows that my mom's gonna be happy if I ask her about the cookie recipe. But I have to sit with that for a moment. That's good practice for us, right? Sitting with that uncertainty, Sitting with that moment of impatience, not getting the immediate answer. Those are great skills that we're building up over time when we do this. And for me, it's really helped to remember that those are skills building, right? That like, oh, I'm pushing myself. This feels a little uncomfortable. I am kind of building up my discomfort resilience over time. And that's a helpful thing.
- [14:44]
B
I'm always saying that I've been blue in the face for years, saying, it's good if you're uncomfortable. And inevitably I always get that. I hate you so much, Srila. Like, I hate it when you tell me that. I'm like, I know, it's okay. You're allowed. See, you're allowed to hate me in this moment. That's okay too, right? Like, we're allowed to have those moments. And I think where, where it stems from is this feeling of vulnerability. Right. So I guess my next question is, do you think that there are ways that AI can help us to navigate the vulnerability?
- [15:14]
A
Yeah, I think one of the things that AI is great at is not being judging. Right. The flip side of this being a little bit too sycophantic is that, you know, it's going to judge you. And that's in part because of the specifics of how it reacts. It always says, oh, that's a great question, or it makes sense that you're feeling that way, and so on. But it's also just because it's not human. Right. You know, when I ask a friend about a problem that I'm going through, there's a little piece of me that's like, are they being judgy of me? Are they going to think less of me as a person? Right. If I ask for help at work, will they think I'm bad at my job? If I tell a friend about a problem I'm having with my child, are they going to think I'm a bad mom? Right. There's this little worry that we have about our own competence when we're dealing with people, and those worries go away with AI tools a little bit more. And so I think the answer to that is twofold. One is if you're in a really vulnerable moment, those tools are available to you. But recognize the opportunity cost of, like, not pushing through that vulnerability with another person. Because one of the things we know from the research is that when we are vulnerable with other people, even though we assume people won't like us as much afterwards or they'll think down on us, often what happens is that people feel great when we ask them for help in the ways we've just been talking about. But even not just when we ask for help, even when we show that we're a little bit messy. One of my favorite effects to tell my students about is this thing called the beautiful mess effect, which is this idea that when we show our vulnerabilities, we assume that other people are going to think we're messy or a lot, or, you know, drama queens or whatever. But typically what happens is people wind up liking us more when we show that we're vulnerable. Right? People see us as a beautiful mess. That mess is beautiful in some sense. And so reminding yourself that whatever you're telling us yourself about your own competence or the judgment you're going to experience, that's just not usually what the other person is going to react with. They're going to react just happy that you reached out to them, feeling a sense of meaning themselves, that you needed help from them, and you thought in a vulnerable moment that they would be the person to Talk to. They feel great because of that. We often perspective take poorly when it comes to that dynamic. We're all focused on our competence and what people are going to say. The other person's just focused on being a warm friend for us.
- [17:24]
B
I'm so glad you said that. I like to say we're perfectly imperfect and we're supposed to be right. But it's so hard, you know, we have to, like, almost deprogram ourselves around that at times, for sure.
- [17:34]
A
You know, and also totally to remember that even though we are perceiving ourselves as imperfect, our own lens with this perfectionist lens that we often bring to things is probably worse than what other people are thinking sometimes. We are our own harshest critics. I often joke that if, you know, HR could hear how we talk about ourselves in our mind, we'd be fired because if we ever spoke about, like, a co worker that badly, like, we would be reprimanded. Right. But we're able to talk about ourselves in, like, really mean ways. And that's the thing to remember is that your own voice is usually much harsher than other people's voices will be.
- [18:07]
B
Yeah. So I'm going to shift gears a little bit and talk a little bit about happiness because you're our expert on that. You know, let's kind of just put it on the table. Like, what brings us joy, what makes us happy? You know, we. We always kind of focus on big, right? The big, like, I have to have the big house with the white picket fence, with the promotion, with the nice car, with the things. Right. It's very. Things based or accomplishment based. But what else, you know, lies behind it? Like, what's the real, like, secret, so to speak, behind what brings us joy, what makes us happy in. In your mind and your experience?
- [18:47]
A
Yeah. Well, it's not the accomplishment, sadly. You know, we researchers in this space of positive psychology often talk about what's known as the arrival fallacy, this idea that I'll be happy when I'll be happy when I get the new house. I'll be happy when I get that promotion, I'll be happy when I get the new relationship. And the sad thing is that we're usually not as happy as we think based on those accomplishments. And even when we get the accomplishments, we're not usually as happy for as long as we assume. We assume not just that we'll be happier when we get that big promotion or that new house, but it'll kind of be like happily ever after. You know, it's like the end of the Disney movie where the, you know, the stardust happens and we're just done. But of course, like, life doesn't work that way. And so this is a fallacy, right? We assume that when we get these circumstances, we'll be happier. And that's not to say that better circumstances won't bring you happiness. You know, if you're living in incredibly dire circumstances, if you don't have, say, enough money to put food on the table or a roof over your head. Yes, you know, changing your circumstances, getting more money will make you happier. But for most of the people listening right now, that's just not going to move the needle as much as you perceive it. Well, and then that raises a question of, like, okay, well then what does move the needle? It seems to be a combination not of our circumstances, but of our behaviors and our mindsets, Behaviors like some of the ones we've been talking about, Things like social connection, doing nice things for others, Even simple behaviors like sleep and exercise. Just the basics for our bodies matter a lot. Getting rest, having what researchers call time, affluence, all of those things matter a lot for happiness. In terms of our mindsets, it's getting away from that mindset we've been discussing of perfectionism, Giving ourselves a little bit of compassion, noticing and feeling grateful for the little things in life. Not the big, huge things, but the tiny cup of coffee, you know, the smile that you saw in the parking lot. Those are the little things that seem to matter a lot. And it's also a mindset of presence. I know something you talk about a lot betterhelp, right? Just kind of becoming a little bit more mindful, Noticing what emotions you're experiencing, noticing how you're feeling in the present moment, Just recognizing where you are with an attitude of acceptance and intention. Those are the kinds of things that really matter for happiness.
- [20:53]
B
I think everybody does this because it's like, almost programmed, right, to focus on the things we don't have yet or that we may feel like we never will get to. And so we get so sucked into that we forget to stop and look at what we do actually have in front of us and what to have gratitude for. I remember once, and I maybe have said this on another episode, I had a client say, I'm grateful for my toes on my feet because I didn't think I could ever walk again.
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A
It's funny, what we forget is so important to us until we don't have it anymore. You know, a few months ago, I had caught Covid again, and now it was like the old school Covid, where you lost your sense of smell and taste. I thought we were done with that in like 2020, but it was back. But it was like, oh, my gosh, my smell, right? Just smell of anything. Like my coffee cup that I can tell if the garbage is a little manky and I need to take it out. When I lacked that sensation, that was all I ever wanted. But months later, now it's back. Thankfully, I'm fine. And it's like this morning, I smelled my breakfast. I smell everything that I ate. I could smell my husband when I gave him a hug. And I didn't think, oh, my gosh, what a gift this was. And this is one of the reasons that the ancients, who were great therapists, they were into understanding how the mind works way before we were. They talked a lot about using this process of what they called negative visualization of just like instantly noticing what would it be like if I didn't have my toes or if I didn't have my smell or something like that can instantly make you grateful for it. And in fact, you know, stoics like, you know, like Seneca and others would say that you should start your morning by imagining, you know, imagine I have lost my job and my spouse and my health and my, you know, I've been exiled or whatever. Don't sit with that anxiously all day, but just, like, notice what your life would be like if you didn't have the standard things.
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B
And.
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A
And it's such a powerful way to increase your gratitude for those things. Again, ideally, with just using your imagination, you don't actually have to get rid of those things. You don't actually have to lose all the things that you value. But just that quick notice of what would it be like if I didn't have this thing can turn on a real host of thankfulness for the things you do have.
- [22:54]
B
Absolutely. Absolutely. I love that. With that said, actually, that's a perfect segue into my next piece. Is that tips, Tips, tools, tricks that people can that are really simple, as simple as possible, more complicated, Whatever makes the most sense to you is what can people do as like, if you will, a homework assignment or I hate to even use homework, but what are some tips and tools and tricks, so to speak, that you keep on hand that help you or that you've seen people get the, if you will, the best success rate from, so to speak?
- [23:29]
A
Yeah, we've talked about some of them already. You know, a big one is social connection, especially if I'm feeling down it's like, just like, do a quick assessment, a little bit of an audit. Like, who did I hang out with today? Have I talked to anybody today? Like, could I call a friend? Could I connect with someone? Could I just give someone random in the parking lot a compliment? Right? If my friends aren't around or they're hard to get in touch with, just those little weak ties can really build up your happiness muscles, right? Because you kind of feel a little bit better every time you do. It makes it easier to overcome the friction. You're kind of moving yourself towards a positive, positive spiral in terms of mindset changes, a little bit of presence, a little bit of gratitude. And if gratitude feels heavy, try a practice that I like called a delight practice, which is just noticing things that are a little bit delightful. It doesn't have to be like, you know, this heavy. Like, well, I have my health and my smell, and I should be really happy. It's just like, I don't know, like, the neighbor's kid, like, was wearing these ridiculous shorts, and that was just so cute. Like, that was just such a delight. Or, you know, this morning I was walking down the street and I was just walking to my coffee shop, and there was somebody ridiculously early in the morning who was clearly rocking out to some 80s synth pop band and was just into it. And I was like, that is so cute. That's a delight, right? The little tiny absurdities that make you smile, just take a moment to notice these. We have this natural negativity bias where our brains go to the negative thing. Just switch that preference to actively notice the good stuff. You'll be surprised how quickly it can change your mood around. And then a final one is just like getting back to the basics, right? When in doubt, move your body a little bit, right? Don't have to run a marathon, but just like a little stretch, a walk around the block, get outside in nature, that can just change your mood incredibly, you know, when in doubt, you know, make sure you prioritize sleep, right? So often when we're feeling down, we can get stuck in the, like, screen time spiral, especially at the end of the night. But, like, what if, like, I'm just gonna put my screens away, really prioritize my sleep hygiene and get some rest. It can make such a world of difference.
- [25:27]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Which, you know, takes me to the next piece. Which is therapy, right? You know, therapy is a place of vulnerability. It's a place where we're going to feel better, right? But I think there's also a really strong Misunderstanding or misperception around therapy is like people waiting to feel fixed, or I'm just gonna wake up one day or this is gonna be the session that is going to unlock my future, you know, like, you know, it's gonna do it. This is it. This is the moment. And I think oftentimes people don't realize that it's a process, you know, so what would you suggest? Or what are some strategies, I think, or misperceptions maybe people can challenge that can help them understand. Like, they're the process of. Of working on yourself. I hate using the word fixing, so, you know, more of, like the process of your own evolution.
- [26:23]
A
One of the strategies a lot of happiness researchers talk about is this idea of a journey mindset, which is like, kind of getting away from that arrival mindset that we talked about before. I'll be happy when, you know, if, like, three sessions in, I'll be fixed or I'll talk about my mom once, and then we'll never have any problems again or something like that. Right. What we need to adopt is a journey mindset that we're learning things along the way. Like, the process of therapy is less about getting fixed at the end of something and more all the insights that you get about yourself, about your ways of processing things, about your standard reactions, about where your emotions go to. Like, you're basically getting a user manual for your own mind as you do this. And that's not, you know, the user manual that you get at the end. It's the one that you get along the way that is really, really essential. And so I think that's a big mindset that we need to shift to, right? To remember that it's about the process. And if you don't value the process, you're kind of missing what you're getting through this whole situation. Another thing that I think therapy can really help us with is slowly gaining more acceptance for the standard ways that our minds do stuff.
- [27:26]
B
Right.
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A
You know, one of the biggest things that I've gotten out of my therapeutic practice is just an acceptance for the way my mind usually goes. Right. Talking with somebody can help you see these moments of perfectionism that you bring in the times when you beat yourself up. Right. And that's also a journey, but I think think each little incremental bit of progress is really helpful. And so all those little, you know, if you just have a, you know, random insight on a Thursday at your therapy session, you're like, oh, I hadn't thought about it that way. That is a win Right. Like, those are the things that you're gaining over time. And that's one of the reasons I think therapy can be so essential. The tiny things, we get along the way.
- [28:04]
B
Yeah. As you were saying that, I was thinking too, somebody asked me. Many people asked me this over the years, but recently somebody asked me this question again, which is, what's your favorite part about being a therapist? And without even a flinch, My favorite, my go to response is watching people have their aha. Moments. Yeah, I just had this epiphany, you know, it is so incredible because that is to your point, that's the win. You just found that connection. You just found that, like, moment where it's like, that makes sense. Oh, my gosh. You know, and that's it. Like, that's the moment. And then that creates such a profound domino effect effect for an individual. That first moment again builds that user manual. I love that you use that analogy, that a user manual of this is what I'm going to do and then continue to build on it. It is a journey, and I love how you broke that down. You know, is there a way that we can practice being happy, you know, especially for those who are maybe more resistant or struggle the most with that mindset? I'm thinking of our folks out there who do struggle with depression, for instance, if this. This is so hard for them, you know, are there other tools and tricks for, if you will, the more resistant mind, you know, for those of us who were here? Yeah.
- [29:17]
A
One of the ones I love, this is less for depression and more for anxiety. Right. When your mind, when you can't focus any on the delights because your mind is just spinning, spinning, spinning. Right. You know, so many of my students go through things like this. This is a time when I think you really just need to get back into the present moment. And I love. We spoke a little bit of our senses earlier. I love this technique of harnessing your senses, the five for three, two, one method, which is a therapist that you've probably shared with some of the folks that you work with. But it's just like in the moment when your head is spinning and you just can't even list five things you can see, four things you can hear, three things you can touch, two things you can smell, and one thing you can taste. Right. And so if I was doing this now, I'd be like, okay, I can see the lights in my podcast studio. I can see you through our little screen as we're talking. I can see the cloth in my room. I can See my water glass? I think that was five. I might have missed one. Now I think I have things I can hear. I can hear the hum of my headphones. I can hear a little bit of a sound background in my room. And I'm going through this. Whatever I was thinking about before, I've forgotten and I haven't even gotten through the things I can hear yet. So this is a powerful practice when your brain is just kind of running, running, running. I think a hack for depression is to remember that whenever the world seems kind of dark for you, if you can just make it seem a little bit lighter for somebody else, that's gonna help. Right. This is like the parking lot compliment strategy of just like go smile out in the world. First of all, move your body, which I think is huge for depression. There's so much evidence that a half hour of cardio every day can be almost as effective as taking a prescription for antidepressant medication. Meta analyses, these big studies of studies have shown this. So get out, get walking around, see someone and you just smile, make a connection, give them a compliment, just, you know, tell them something good. Even if you're totally faking it, even if your world through your lenses just feels so dark and not rosy at all, just pretend that you have the rose colored glasses on and you will find that it actually works a lot. This is also a great technique for if you're feeling lonely. Right. One of the best ways to overcome feeling lonely is to reach out to somebody else, whether that's again, a stranger that you have a weak tie with, a person that you haven't talked to in a long time. They don't necessarily have to connect with you back for you to feel the benefit of making them feel less lonely. And so all of these things, I think is worth recognizing are just actions you can take. And I think the meta thing I would remind people who are going through tough times is like, we have agency over this stuff. Does that mean you can snap your fingers and you're not going to experience clinical depression or anxiety? No, but there are these tiny steps we can take, take to move the needle a little bit. And the studies show that those steps do add up.
- [31:58]
B
Yep. It's cumulative. You know, it's definitely a cumulative effect. We can't just again snap our fingers and say, oh, I did this tool or trick or hack, whatever we want to call it one time and now I'm going to be good. No, it's practice.
- [32:11]
A
I think that's exactly right. And that's what we need to remember. We need to. We remember that so often for other things, you know, if you think about, like, physical health, you know, say, instead of. Of feeling a little depressed and wanting to get happier, I was feeling a little out of shape and I wanted to get fitter. No one thinks I'll go to the gym once and then I'm done. Good. I had that one hit workout, and now the rest of my life I've done it. But we can forget that with some of these happiness strategies that I talked about or with therapy. We think we have one therapy session and we're good to go. What happened? This is a process. You have to put time in. You know, like any good thing in life, you need to put some time into this stuff. And I think, you know, this analogy between our physical health and our mental health is so apt. Just as you need to kind of consistently eat pretty healthy and consistently move your body a little bit and consistently take care of yourself through rest. So to have physical health, to have your physical body feel good, so too, do you need these tiny steps to make your mental health feel a little bit better?
- [33:10]
B
Absolutely. You know, as you were saying that, I was thinking to myself, you know, one of the things I often will say is that we don't always have to have a perfect day. We don't always have to have a great day. Our days are filled with a little bit of everything. It's a nice little rainbow of good, bad, ugly, pretty, all of it in between, whatever you want to call it. And one of the things I often find is we get stuck into. Yeah, but I'm doing so well. I don't want to get sucked into feeling sorry for myself or feeling this or feeling that. I don't want to feel bad. And so often what I will also say to people is that instead of. Instead of fighting it, you know, sit with it, but only sit with it for a limited period of time because acknowledging it is also important. Right. You can't ignore the problems. You can't ignore feeling sad or feeling even despair in the moment. Because sometimes we do have moments of despair, whether it's grief or whatever it might be in that moment. It's okay to sit with it, acknowledge it, own it, feel it, move through it, and then move on. Right. I think that's the other trap that people fall into. Right. Is there's the. The I. I have to feel good all the time. No, actually, you really don't have to. Right. And it's okay. And I. I like to give this homework sometimes to people where it's like, okay, you want to feel sorry for yourself? Do it, go for it. Knock yourself out, feel sorry for yourself. But set a timer, give yourself 10 minutes, and that's all you're going to do in those 10 minutes. Don't you dare wash the dishes. Don't you dare go scrolling, don't do anything else. Sit there for 10 minutes and you're going to feel sorry for yourself. And they're like, cyril, I could only do it for three. I'm like, isn't that funny?
- [34:42]
A
Yes.
- [34:43]
B
It only worked for three minutes. Isn't it funny? You didn't. It was like, ah, I'm over this already. It's like, yeah, and now you can move forward. You acknowledged it, you felt it, you allowed yourself to have that moment. Now move on.
- [34:54]
A
And one of the things we should be talking about is exactly this. This idea of really feeling our negative emotions, right? I think as a happiness expert, I often get accused of toxic positivity, right? This idea of, like, when I'm saying these happiness strategies, it means be happy all the time. No depression, no anxiety. And I'm like, that's just not human. We have these emotions for an evolutionary reason. These are really essential signals to figure out what we need. But as you're pointing out, all too often we're like, I don't have time for that. Just ignore that. And it's like, no, no, open it up, let it in, sit with it for a while. And when you do, you'll often find that it passes more quickly than you think. You didn't need that much time to have a pity party for yourself. You only needed three minutes. Minutes. But you never gifted yourself that, so how would you feel it? So, yeah, totally big fan as a happiness expert. Big fan of negative emotions and big fan of allowing them and really understanding, you know, what am I dealing with here? And mindfully noticing and accepting them.
- [35:49]
B
Every feeling has a purpose, right? Every emotion has a purpose. I was having this conversation with a client of mine not that long ago, I think it was last week. And talking about jealousy. You can feel jealous of somebody, but what is that telling you about yourself and where you want to be, be, you know, and there was a moment of silence there, and they were definitely thinking about it. They're like, yeah, I. I get jealous too. But, you know, and. And so on. And we were talking about. And it's like, embrace it. It's okay to feel jealous. What do you need to do different, right? It's about what our emotions can teach Us and happiness is, is the same thing, right? Happiness teaches us to be in that moment and feel joy and just have gratitude in that moment. But anger, sadness, madness, all of those feelings teach us something too. I want to go to social media. I think social media has its positive and negative. Like anybody else, I think it's about having a balanced view. However, you know, I would love to hear your thoughts on, you know, the comparison of the comparison trap is what I like to call it, of what social media does to us, how we interpret it and what you would say to anyone or any of our listeners is how do we take a step back and recognize, like, what's your better? You know, it's not about comparing to over here, but what is your better when you're looking at social media or you're getting this input? As I say, I say consumption, when we're consuming, what could be better for you? What's going to work for you? What are your suggestions around that? When. Especially when it comes to social media.
- [37:26]
A
Yeah, I love this framing of what's better for you because, you know, like you, I share this intuition that like, social media is a tool, right? It's a technology that we can use for all kinds of good stuff, for all kinds of bad stuff, right? We could be posting on social media the things that we're grateful for and using it to connect with friends and using it to do all the stuff that we just talked about being good for your happiness. Problem is that we tend not to. Right? The problem is that we tend first of all to just interact with our social media tools very passively. Right? Scrolling through a feed, there's lovely evidence, early evidence from Ethan Cross and others, showing that the more passive you are on your social media tools, the less you get out of them, the less enjoyment you have and the kind of more negative emotions that come up. So even things like posting, commenting, using it as a social tool winds up being better for you than just the scroll, scroll, scroll. Right? Another suggestion I like to give folks comes from the amazing Catherine Price. She's a journalist who has a. A book called how to break up with your phone where she doesn't really argue that you need to break up with your phone, but you might need to go to like, phone couples counseling kind of thing to work out your issues with your phone. But I love Katherine because she has this lovely acronym that she suggests that we should use whenever any issue comes up with social media or our phones. It's WWW and it stands for what, for why now and what else so whenever you're kind of on social media and you have a moment of clarity of like, wait, what am I doing scrolling through page number 47 of Instagram saying, say, ah, what for? Why now? What else? What was this for? Like, was there some reason I went on here? You know, was I trying to learn some specific information? Maybe I was trying to entertain myself, did it, Was there a purpose? Right. And then why now? This is the emotional question. What was the emotional trigger that brought me on there? Was it boredom? Was it loneliness? Was it anxiety? You know, maybe for some of those emotional reasons it's good, you know, that's a useful tool to distract myself. But for some of them, maybe it's not the best solution. And then maybe most importantly, what else? This is the opportunity cost question. What else could I be doing right now? Maybe I could be talking to a friend. Maybe I could be present in my room. Maybe I could be talking literally with the person who's at dinner with me while I'm like scrolling on TikTok, right? What are you missing out on by doing that? And I love this WWW strategy because it doesn't say, well, get off social media forever or social media is really bad for you. It causes you to mindfully ask the question, what am I getting out of this? What are the triggers that make me go onto this? And like, what could I be doing instead? Honestly, it's like, you know, CBT for your, like, you know, your social media and phone use, right? It causes you to mindfully ask whether this is working for you. And that can just be a really useful tool in the middle of it because sometimes it's fine, you know, you're using it for something helpful. And sometimes it's like, it's not that, you know, it's not that good to be on or it's having a negative effect on you, or it's like your go to whenever you're bored or whenever you're angry, anxious. And maybe there are other go tos that might feel a little better. Absolutely love that.
- [40:19]
B
There's one other like, pending question in my mind, which is, you know, you work with a lot of folks who are high performers, right? A lot of your research is around high performers and the non link, if you will, between high performance and happiness. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? And I think this is so important for our listeners.
- [40:40]
A
Yeah, well, I got interested in this work when I was, I am still a professor at Yale, working with lots of Yale students, students who are, you know, very intense and Ivy League type A students, right? A little intense crowd. And I think this was already shocking for a lot of the people, you know, broadly in the field of like, you know, these students who are, you know, have their whole life ahead of them. They're 19 years old, they're so accomplished, and they all need a class on happiness, you know, like, what's going on? And I think already that tells you something, right? Already that tells you that the typical things we assume are the big achievements in life, they don't feel as good as we assume that they're going to feel. And that's in part because we get used to them, right? You know, every time you get the, you know, the next big accomplishment, there's always another mountain to climb or another accomplishment to go after, another carrot to seek out, right? That's one problem. Another problem is that we are often at the. We are often there's an opportunity cost of focusing on all the big accomplishments because it means we're often not focused on the things that really do matter for our happiness. You know, I watch my students who are so focused on their grades or getting into the next med school or like the next big thing that they're foregoing their sleep, not paying attention to their social connection, definitely not being present, definitely spending a lot of time feeling overwhelmed with way too much on their plate. And there's this interesting question of, like, for what? Right, for this accomplishment that's not, maybe not going to make you as happy as you think. And so I think for a lot of very high performing individuals, there's this question about is it worth it? You know, you're climbing so fast up that ladder. Is it the right ladder that's leading you to the thing that you really want? And those are hard questions, right? Like, often they go against some of our really basic values, but I think they're super important to ask because, you know, the answer to that question often is like one that you really need. Because if you're putting all this time and energy into something that's not gonna give you the thing that you want, probably best to question that and put your time and energy into something that really will work for you and make a life that's worth living.
- [42:37]
B
Yeah, yeah, I can't agree more. You know, I myself am a bit of a high achiever. I own that. I admit it. And you know, and it has taken me many years of recognizing and acknowledging, like having all these accomplishments, pieces of paper. I jokingly say at the end of the day, it's true, those pieces of paper sitting on my shelf are not what bring me joy and happiness. It's the human beings that I am surrounded with with. It's, you know, the funny things that they do every day. Those delights are my delight 100% every single day in the littlest ways. And so that's the piece. Right. It isn't until we challenge that way of thinking where we start to say, you know, that's not the source of my joy. That's not the source of my happiness. What actually does bring me joy and happiness are those little moments. And every single day is not all gonna be great, but there are moments of joy in every day. Right. It's such a pleasure to have had you here with us today and just such an incredible conversation, especially with an expert like you here. So before we wrap up, last question. What's one thing that you do in the morning and one thing that you do in the evening that you practice for yourself that brings you happiness?
- [43:50]
A
Yeah. My morning big one is to get outside as soon as possible. Just, like, be outside, Whether that's just on my porch or taking a walk to a coffee shop, or just, like, be outside and just get some light, get moving. It's, like, really essential. I can tell on days when I don't achieve that, the difference. And then at night, I always end the evening plopping into bed with my husband and having a nice little conversation, and we kind of joke around and talk about our day. He goes to bed much later than me, so it's more of a sacrifice for him than it is for me. But no matter what time he's going to bed, he'll come to bed with me for a little bit and then take off. And it's just like a way to reconnect, a way to strengthen our relationships. And it's always one of my favorite parts of the day. I love that.
- [44:31]
B
I love that. That connecting. Yeah. That's amazing. I love it. Well, thank you again so much. I really enjoyed our conversation. I could probably talk to you all day and then some and loving it. Love it so much. And I really appreciate you making the time and spending that here with us a better help to. To bring your wisdom to our listeners, because it's just such incredible wisdom. And I really appreciate you being here with us today. So thank you.
- [44:55]
A
Thanks so much for having me on the show.
- [44:56]
B
Thank you. A few key themes stood out from my conversation with Dr. Laurie Santos. For example, finding small ways to improve your daily happiness and mental health is more achievable than aiming for a dramatic overhaul and reframing our mindset towards gratitude, compassion and human connection can do much of the heavy lifting on the heavier days. Happiness isn't a destination, it's a practice that you can enhance with the right tools, mindset and support. This is an ad by BetterHelp. In this episode we're discussing how small daily actions can help improve our lives. Because becoming better doesn't happen overnight. Learning what facilitates your happiness and takes practice and therapy can help create a space to learn without judgment. Better help makes it easy to get the help you deserve. Visit betterhelp.com mindifwetalk for 10% off your first month. That's better. H lp.com mind if we Talk? I want to give a big thank you to Better Help for their passion for this project and for giving us a platform to champion the well being in all of us. Mind if We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with Better Help and hosted by me, Sri La Green. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review in Spotify or Apple podcasts and share the episode with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life. And remember your happiness matters. Mind if We Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.