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- [00:00]
A
My father was kind of like a Texas Tony Soprano vibe character. Yeah. I mean, the time that I spent with him was. It was all about being tough and aggressive and taking people down. From that early stage. It made me realize that the messaging around masculinity that I was not even being taught but just that were available for me to observe weren't necessarily accurate. I just wanted to do the opposite of it.
- [00:33]
B
Hey, can I talk to you about something? I wish you knew. I wish you knew how lonely menopause felt.
- [00:42]
A
I wish you knew why it's so
- [00:45]
C
hard for men to share their feelings. I wish you knew what it was like growing up in a low income family.
- [00:50]
B
I wish you knew how hard it was not having a college degree. I wish you knew what, what it's like to be me. Don't cry. Man up. Don't be so sensitive. These are messages that many men absorb from an early age. And on today's show, we're joined by two guests who reflect on the impact of being taught to suppress their emotions, plus how they each eventually learn to become as one of them puts full spectrum humans first. There's Corey Allen, an author, musician, and podcast host whose work explores mindfulness, self awareness, and human connection. And we're also joined by James McCrae, a writer and poet who whose work blends philosophy, humor, and emotional honesty in really relatable ways. Later in our episode, BetterHelp therapist David Yadish joins me to unpack why so many men are taught to disconnect from vulnerability and how we can create safer spaces for emotional openness. Let's get talking. Well, thank you again for being here today, and I'm gonna jump right into it today and get into our topic, which is around really the importance of being vulnerable and talking about our feelings and all of that stuff. You know, I think early life experiences shape all of us. It's inevit, inevitable, you know, when it comes down to it, you know, for you, Corey, you know, when you were growing up, what were some of the, like, ways that, you know, you experienced emotional expression in your household?
- [02:14]
A
Well, it wasn't really a, a safe environment for me. I discovered very early to express emotions. I think there was an expectation to always uphold the status quo, to create this false feeling of everything being okay and that one of my earliest memories is the first time as a child whenever I did feel something was wrong and I tried to share an emotion, I was attacked for doing that. And it made it to where very early on, my earliest emotional awareness was rooted in fear and in withdrawing. And it made me. Created the pattern and some of the wiring for me to feel like that emotions should be compartmentalized, they should be hidden.
- [03:11]
B
You were never given permission to be vulnerable.
- [03:13]
A
Exactly.
- [03:14]
B
And it was like a punishment if you were. If you expressed any sort of humanity, any sort of realness around what made you you. That was like, no, we're not supposed to do that.
- [03:26]
A
Yeah, totally. And to, to. To this day, I still am aware of a bit of identity management, you know, where I'm aware of how people are perceiving me. And if there's any type of identity misrepresentation, it's. It still bothers me, you know, but fortunately I've worked on it a lot over the years to where now I know when it's happening and I can work with it and put those walls down and reopen. But it is a deep fundame imprintation that I had.
- [03:57]
B
Yeah, yeah. It's really hard to undo those old habits, you know, because that's what you go to. It becomes your knee jerk reaction. So that makes a lot of sense. James, curious to hear about your perspective and the same question, you know, what were your early experiences and how they shaped you and how you emotionally express yourself?
- [04:16]
D
Sure. Well, when I think about emotionally expressing myself both now and when I was young, so much of that has been through my writing. You know, I'm a poet, and I've really been a poet my whole life. You know, I started writing poetry consistently when I was like 13 years old. So I. It's fair to say I've always been sort of a sensitive person. And I feel like poetry gave me an outlet to pour that into in a way that I didn't have in real life. And I sort of had this dichotomy of Persona because people didn't know that I was writing poetry. Right. Like, I feel like I would have been made fun of, like, especially at school. It wasn't normal for maybe a boy in small town Minnesota at that time to be a poet. So I almost felt embarrassed. I felt like it was. It would have been a social liability to go around sharing my poetry with friends. Even, even my, my good friends didn't know that I was doing this because I felt guarded from it.
- [05:36]
B
You know, the, the emotion that stood out to me as you were sharing that is shame. Like there's this like, deep shame almost around just being you and, and hiding that part of ourselves. Right. Like both of you have that same like, similar experience where it's like I'm hiding this part of my ways, but nonetheless hiding. And for you, James, I'm hearing, like, there's this, like, shame. Like, I don't. How am I going to be perceived and what is that going to be like? And I can imagine how impactful that can still feel at times where there's still, like, that little bit of peace in ourselves that are still like a child, right? Where it's like, I'm still kind of scared to share this, and I don't know how I feel, but I. Here I am, and I'm. I'm putting myself out there now. But it can still feel so overwhelming at times. Right?
- [06:21]
D
Like, certainly. And, you know, I thought that I wasn't man enough, right? Because what. What was considered cool or masculine at the time when I was growing up, it's like kids were into sports and trucks and more stereotypical masculine things. Right. So there was no example around me of sort of a softer, more empathetic, sensitive form of masculinity. So I felt like I was not man enough in the interests and the disposition that I did have. So I felt like there was something, you know, wrong with me because I wasn't, you know, I didn't fit this mold that was considered masculine, at least, you know, in. At that time where I was growing up. So I took solace in, like, artists and musicians and, you know, people who I didn't know, but I could read their books. And I sort of had these relationships with poets from the past and musicians that sort of allowed me to feel what I was feeling, but it was still sort of this internal experience rather
- [07:35]
B
than an outer expression you just kind of segued into. My next question, which is around the masculinity part. You just touched on that. Curious to hear from Corey a little bit about how do you feel your experiences impacted. Impacted your views on masculinity and that emotional expression and again, hiding parts of yourself. How do you think that impacted that for you?
- [07:57]
A
Yeah, greatly, because my father was kind of like a Texas Tony Soprano vibe character that was his energy, even dressed the same and had a suburban, very alpha, tough, cutthroat type of guy. Old school. And yeah, I mean, the time that I spent with him was. It was all about being tough and aggressive and taking people down. And, you know, he died whenever I was young. And I remember, you know, he carried guns with him all the time. He slept with guns under his bed. He always had a gun on him. One in his car. And I remember him telling me, well, I always have a gun on me because I Never know who I'm going to see whenever I walk around the corner. And you know, he's in all restaurants, he ate with his back to the wall, watching the entrance to the restaurant. There was no windows on the front of his house. And I remember observing that. And even as a kid, I thought, why would someone want to live like that? I want to be excited about who I'm going to see that comes around the corner, not scared that someone's going to attack me. And from that early stage, it made me realize that the messaging around masculinity that I was not even being taught, but just that were available for me to observe weren't necessarily accurate. And they weren't the full picture. And it certainly wasn't how I wanted to be and who I wanted to be. I just wanted to do the opposite of it. And as I really leaned into compassion, and that is strength in presence, in being able to share your humanity with other people, it began to reveal to me a really powerful part of my internal life which I saw was missing in my father. And that was authentic, real human connection.
- [10:03]
B
I love how you spoke to going in the opposite direction because I think that's really important for our listeners to know that there is a different way that we don't know we're not always aware of. And then looking at that and exploring that.
- [10:17]
D
Well, you know, Corey brought up something very interesting that I think is really critical to this conversation, which is generational trauma and sort of, you know, why is it that men as a category can be cut off from their emotions? And, you know, he shared some of his story with his. With his father. And I think something that affects nearly all men in the world that maybe isn't talked about enough is the trauma of war. There's so much generational trauma that gets passed down through war. My father was 18 years old. He had just graduated high school when he was sent to Vietnam to fight in that war. And he still will have night terrors where he will wake up in a state of panic, as if there's an enemy right there. So this is 50 some years after the fact, and he still wakes up in the middle of the night with night terrors of enemies that don't even exist. So this is such a. This is such a shock to the nervous system to perceive enemies around you that don't exist and to feel like you need to have your guard up because you certainly can't be emotional on the battlefield. So this is sort of what men in one way or another have sort of the culture that we've grown up in, where to be masculine out of survival means to be tough, to be strong, to suppress your emotions. But the problem with that is what you suppress long enough will eventually explode. And I just feel like it's so important for men, it's been so important of my, in my life to create a release valve where these pent up emotions can be released in a healthy way. You know, we don't have to live with clenched fists, we can actually live with open hands.
- [12:35]
A
That's a huge thing that now I think that we need to focus on the conversation is, you know, like for example, one thing I would share that I experienced in working myself was just treating emotions almost kind of like treat it like wine tasting in a way to rebuild and reconnect to that emotional language within you. Whenever you feel frustrated or that or whatever it is, just instead of reacting to it or denying it or trying to numb it with alcohol or disassociation, actually sitting with it and just closing your eyes and just start naming, just dropping little words to label any edge of what's arising. It's like, okay, well there's frustration, there's sadness, there's fear, there's anxiety. And now as you do that, you know, it starts to build this picture to where you can start to frame up what it is that you're actually feeling and then ask yourself, well, why might I be feeling those things? You know, and you can slowly build this language to begin to understand yourself. And then once you've done that, then you're able to actually start articulating it to other people.
- [13:47]
D
Feeling emotions like a wine tasting. That's brilliant. Yeah, I love that.
- [13:51]
B
That was beautiful. I'm totally stealing that one, by the way, but I love that. No, I love it. I totally will steal that. I love that analogy because it is. And you know, as a therapist, that's often what I say is like embracing the emotion. You know, feel it and stop judging it. You know, evaluate it, but don't judge it. Do you think that again, not that that inability or that lack of permission around em expression, do you both feel as though that played a huge role in how you've experienced and express anger?
- [14:27]
D
Yeah. So what, what comes to mind for me, you know, listening to Corey talk now was it is so important to be able to identify and label and name your emotions. But I think the first step in doing that is it's a subtle shift in awareness from the intellect, the mind, the ego, which is a place that so many of us are Sort of locked into and shifting that awareness into the body. And I feel like my experience, and I think that I've seen this mirrored in most men, is that we tend to be locked into this intellectual paradigm of how we view the world. And the problem with that is that the intellect is so, it's so limited, it's so shallow in a way. And I feel like when we can tune into the wisdom of the body, we're opening ourselves up to a whole world of subtle intelligence that's outside the reach of the conscious mind. Where I had my biggest breakthrough or was really just connecting with my body and thinking less and feeling more and not trying to assign a judgment on what I was feeling, but just to be there with it and to sit with it and to make friends with my own body and emotions.
- [15:59]
B
Thinking less and feeling more. I think you just summarized it in a nutshell, right? Like we are so prone to intellectualizing and rationalizing and compartmentalizing. Want to kind of pivot a little bit based off of that, you know, is, is getting into a little bit of the emotional armor we wear. Right. Like even as a, as a therapist and I talk to people about their feelings all the time, I still have to wear a certain amount of armor. And even in my personal life, sometimes I even still have to wear a certain level of armor. But I think that it's very different when we're talking about masculinity, femininity, you know, et cetera. But then also there's this piece of like we do armor ourselves, you know, your experiences been like with that and how has it impacted your relationships?
- [16:51]
A
Well, in terms of impacting relationships, you know, of course I've done a lot of emotional armoring over my entire life and it made it to where it's just very hard to have intimacy with someone. You know, if you can't share what you're feeling and have honest, authentic conversations with someone, you're never going to be able to really connect with them because you can only know someone as deep as you know yourself. And that armor is a two way street. It's like you're not only armoring other people from seeing your emotions, you're also armoring yourself from seeing your emotions. And so I think that going through the process, I love the way that James articulated with the softening and that's the similar thing that I did. You were able to let go of some of that and start to actually connect and have authentic relationships. One thing that I learned to do, and I definitely suggest any men that have issues with this. To do it as well is to. Throughout the day, when you're in communication with either your partner or other people, start just like micro expressing emotions. Whenever someone says, how was your day? Instead of going, that's fine, that's cool. And then changing the subject, you go, oh, it was really stressful anyway. So this and X, Y and Z, if you test the waters, you learn that, okay, it's safe. Whenever I just share a little piece of what I'm feeling without going into depth, I can do that and everything is okay. I think a big issue around that, that is important for us to talk about on this podcast and in general is that men are in an interesting position because as James said, we're told to be strong. We're told to be tough, to get things done, to man up and to be a utility creature, to fix things and all this and to be reliable for the tribe, to be sturdy and to be invulnerable and to be a protector and all this type of thing. And then we're also told that we should be emotional and vulnerable. And so what happens is that whenever a man sometimes expresses his emotion like he's been told he should and he wants to because he's tired of feeling frustrated and pent up and all that, the person that receives it, often against their own intention, just through the passive observation of the man expressing something, their perception shifts of him to one of perhaps of maybe looking at them as being weaker or maybe they aren't as stable as I thought they were. Maybe they're not as trustworthy. And I've talked to a lot of men that say that that's a fear of theirs, is that they feel kind of stuck because it's like, be strong, be invulnerable, but also share your emotions. And then you're like, all right. And then you share emotions. And then they're like, I don't like the way that you should be. Where was this? I need the strong. It's like, well, what can I do then? You know, what do you. What do think about that, James?
- [20:00]
D
Well, I totally agree with what you're saying. And what comes to mind for me is that to be a master at anything, to master something, it's an art of delicate balance. So I think you're sort of articulating how there's a bit of a dichotomy between the guarded strong side that men are expected to be, but then maybe occasionally break down and cry because they've been bottling it up and there's for me, there's a sort of disconnect there where I feel like an integration is necessary. And what I mean is sort of a reframing of how we view strength and what it means to be quote, unquote, alpha. So true alpha requires you to be emotionally attuned to the tribe. Right. So that is true strength is to be emotionally attuned and lead through example and through empathy rather than through ego. And this forceful display of strength, you know, in my studies of Taoism, and I know you've studied Taoism as well, like there's this. There's this idea of forcefulness and forcing your way versus sort of stepping back and allowing things to happen. So I think it comes down to having a more emotionally attuned idea of what strength means. And, you know, that's the final stage is it actually does require strength to be gentle. And you can't be of service if you're trying to lead through force, through will, through ego. You need to lead, be of service by listening, by being emotionally attuned and by allowing some degree of sensitivity because that's true strength.
- [22:02]
B
Yeah. I love what you both just shared because I think you just hit the nail on the head for sure. I want to tap into the next piece here, and this is where it's going to be about practicing. What we're preaching a little bit today is that when you have each had that opportunity to be vulnerable, to take down the armor, you know, how. How has that been or have there been experiences where it may not have gone the way you planned or intended and how did you handle it?
- [22:35]
A
I've been very fortunate because I've been with my wife for 20 years and so, you know, we. She's very responsible for creating the container and having the understanding and the patience whenever I was younger, because I was just like a maniac whenever I was younger to. To be able to grow that part of myself and share it openly and have it be received in a healthy way, but also a way that was completely free of bullshit at the same time where it's like, you know, certainly we're going to be real about it. And, you know, she's not afraid to confront me with challenging things about the way I'm approaching topics or the way that I'm expressing myself or the way that I'm trying to share. And I welcome that. So I've been very fortunate to have that. That really healthy container for most of my adult life.
- [23:33]
D
Yeah, I would say, you know, your environment is so critical to all of this. You know, not all environments are equally safe to be expressive. Right. And like I said, you know, when. If I had stayed in that small town in Minnesota where I was writing poetry and not sharing it, I may never have found the ability to open up the way that I have. So I think it's so critical to find people that will accept you. You know, finding the friend group, finding the partner where you feel safe to express yourself, to be yourself. So that's been critical for me, for sure.
- [24:11]
B
I think you touched on something really important. There is finding the right tribe. Finding your tribe. Right. We say it a lot casually, I think as therapists. We say quite often it's like you have to find your tribe. But the reality is, there's a huge truth to that, is that sometimes we're so used to those unhealthy or toxic dynamics that we forget that we have options. I want to talk a little bit more about who we are today and the impact that the. Of the work we're doing on ourselves and how it translates into the new generation. So, James, you're a father. Just going to preface this. I'm a mom. Parenting is the job that you just never have enough training for or any training for in life personally. That's just been my experience, you know, but it's. It's one of the most beautiful things, but it's also one of the most difficult things that we will ever do in our life. You know, how has the work you've done on yourself in learning to navigate emotions, emotions, and all of the above, of everything we've talked about, how do you think that's impacted your relationship with your daughter?
- [25:19]
D
Yeah, so much. So, so much. You know, it's been such a journey to become a father. My daughter is almost two, and. Yeah, there's already, you know, every day is a full spectrum of emotion with her.
- [25:34]
B
Yeah, right.
- [25:35]
D
Because she doesn't always like me. You know, like, she's getting really good at saying, no, dad, dad, no, dad, dad nowhere. And it's. It's. I just laugh because. And I just. I'm just like, whatever. I'm here for whatever you need. If you need mama and don't want dada or, you know, you need a. To stop playing and maybe have a quiet moment or whatever it is, I support it. And one of my favorite things to do with her is to sing with her. Like, she, you know, she's too little to truly sing, but since she was very little when she. When I'm changing her diaper on the, you know, on the table. I would just do little vocalizations with her and like make the silliest sounds and get her to make it with me, you know, so I'm just like the ultimate silly dad. And it's, I'm doing it for, it's so fun for me. But I'm also helping her feel completely comfortable expressing herself and to, and to, and to vocalize what she's feeling, whether that's when she's little, that's just making sounds. Right. But yeah, just being there to support her in every facet of her emotions and not wanting her to be something she's not or feel something than what she feels, but showing up for her in where she's at and making sure that she knows that I am a safe place for her to say anything, to share anything. So my whole goal is, well, number one is to make her laugh. That's my number one goal in life, is to make my daughter laugh. But even more than that is to be a safe place for her.
- [27:36]
B
You know, it's funny as, as you're talking, it's so interesting to hear from where we started in this conversation to where we've landed now and the new generation. You were talking about generational trauma and how that impacts us, you know, generation after generation. And you know, thinking back to, you know, if you will and permit, permit me to say so, you know, younger James and younger Corey, you know, and their experience and their relationship with emotions, what would you say your relationship with emotions is today in comparison to your childhood self?
- [28:13]
A
Well, first off, I have a relationship with them now.
- [28:16]
B
Yes, thank you for saying that. Yes.
- [28:20]
A
Yeah, I mean, I, I look at them as not only a positive thing, but they're essential. You know, our emotions are a different form of wisdom, but they speak through a felt sense of self as opposed to one that's in language like our thoughts. And my goal as a person is to be a full spectrum human. I want to have my mind, my emotions, everything, my body, everything in tune so that I can experience everything it is to be a person and embody that and then share it with other people.
- [28:55]
D
You know, first of all, I'm just so optimistic and hopeful about where this is all going as a culture and how much progress men have made, you know, since we were kids, you know, and I'm such a fan of art. So I, you know, perceive so much of culture through the lens of art. And, you know, I'm a fan of hip hop, for example. And like when I was a kid, hip hop was. It's A hyper masculine genre. They talk about shooting and hooking up with women and partying and money and cars and all of these, again, these sort of old paradigm views of what an alpha male is. And then at a certain point, hip hop started to get emotional. And you could look at artists, whether it's Kid Cudi or Drake, and it's like, wow, the rappers are talking about emotions now. And it felt for me, as a listener and as a fan, so liberating to hear that because they were giving me permission to be vulnerable, not only in my art, but in my life. So there's been breadcrumbs that have been laid out from people in the past decade or two that it's a permission slip. So I just would like to do the same and to demonstrate a form of masculinity that is more vulnerable, that is more sensitive and that's softer. So I'm trying to carry that into my life and my work and my relationships in a way, because I feel like we are sort of in a. In a time of expanding consciousness and an opening up to our emotions is certainly part of that.
- [31:01]
B
Absolutely. I wanted to wrap up with asking you to each respond to this. I want you to finish a sentence which is, I wish you knew.
- [31:13]
D
What comes to mind for me is I wish you knew how. How fun and easy and expansive it can be. The image that comes to mind is someone who's on a diving board and fearful of jumping off because the water is. There's exposure there. When you don't want to jump off the diving board, you don't want to be exposed to the shock of the water. It might be a little cold, so you're a little withholding, but once you do it, once you jump in, wow, that wasn't as bad as I thought. And not only that, but now I'm in the water and I can swim and I can go under, and it's just. It's an expansive experience and it's something that helps you grow. And you can have a richer experience of life than you would if you were just holding it all in.
- [32:07]
B
I love that. The diving board. Love that.
- [32:11]
A
I would say I wish you knew that you didn't have to be seen as being strong all the time. And I wish you knew that once you start softening and allow yourself to really share what you're actually thinking and feeling with the people that you care about, all of that tension and heaviness and pressure will start to release and what you'll feel is emotional freedom.
- [32:42]
B
Thank you both so Much. I loved this conversation. This was great. Corey and James both described what it was like growing up feeling like parts of themselves had to stay hidden, whether that meant suppressing emotion or being a young man who loved poetry but felt like he couldn't say that out loud, an experience many men can relate to. Corey's wine tasting analogy gives us such a useful way to think about deconstructing those feelings. Instead of judging what we feel, we can slow down, notice the notes, and start naming those emotions. But where do those messages about masculinity and vulnerability actually come from? And how do we begin to unlearn them? To dig deeper, I sat down with better health therapist David Yadish. Together we unpacked emotional literacy, shame, and why vulnerability might actually be one of the strongest things we can practice. Let's get talking. So this was a really great interview. I have to say. I really enjoyed hearing Corey and James talk about this specific topic, because I do think this is a topic that is just not addressed enough. And, you know, you and I both are therapists, so we love vulnerability. And I was just like, yes, let's get into it. So I wanted to start us right off by talking a little bit about, you know, there was a lot of, you know, comparing and contrasting and in a good way when it comes to exploring vulnerability, especially in men, and how we explore emotions and all those challenges that come along with that. So Corey and James both talked a lot about their childhood experiences, how that created the narrative, if you will, around how they experience their emotions and express their emotions. So we had a listener right in to Instagram, and this was their question about the. The trend that we're seeing or the themes I think that we're seeing is why do men so often feel they have to carry all the burden and can't open up to partners or family?
- [34:42]
C
This is a really difficult question because there are so many cultural factors. There's so many different experiences we have as children. So when we grow up male in this society, a lot of times we're encouraged to suppress certain emotions and only express other ones, right? So a lot of times we see from other male figures in movies or television or our parents or brothers and sisters, we're taught that anger, frustration, those are okay, but other softer emotions like happiness, joy, care, sadness are not as acceptable. So I think we learn that we have to push it down, that we can't express it. And from that, it makes it really difficult as we get older and as we grow up to know how to name and emote and share our emotions.
- [35:41]
B
Yeah, no, I agree with that. And there's like almost a stigma around, like, if you cry or if you express sadness or any type of vulnerability or what's perceived as vulnerability. You're weak.
- [35:54]
C
Absolutely.
- [35:55]
B
You know, and it's like, it's so hard to change that as we get, especially as we get older. But I think this was a great question for one of our listeners, for sure. The other part of this is the embarrassment. One of the things that James talked about was embarrassment in being themselves and being expressive and admitting, if you will, to their love of what makes them them as a child. Right. And so, you know, there was just a lot of shame and embarrassment and I think fear as a result of that and maybe a little bit of guilt around not being authentic to themselves or being authentic with the people that they were around, you know, so how do you think something like that, when we suppress that authenticity, the what makes us us, how do you think that impacts us into adulthood?
- [36:53]
C
I'm really glad he shared this experience because so many young men, so many boys grow up with a similar experience. The feeling like, you know, you have to hide or, you know, not display to the world if you like poetry or if you enjoy some of the more, you know, quote unquote sensitive things in life. And first of all, I think it's so important that men today express themselves, share these things and talk about it, because that will make a huge difference as communities grow up.
- [37:28]
D
Right.
- [37:29]
C
Regarding shame. Shame is really a difficult emotion. And, you know, shame doesn't erase sensitivity as much as we might want to push things down. And shame kind of covers up sensitivity and that openness there. Shame doesn't erase sensitivity. It just teaches it to go underground. It teaches sensitivity to hide. And the more we suppress that and the more we hide that as young men, as we grow older, the harder it is to express those and the harder it is to name those emotions and to truly talk about and feel and experience the world fully. And if nothing else comes from this, I hope that every young man, every boy growing up who like something that's not, you know, part of the cultural norm, not what's expected of young men and boys, that they have the strength and the support to be able to express those and share those experiences. And the more we talk about it, the more we find as men, other people have those same experiences. Because there's nothing inherently wrong or feminine or non masculine about these experiences. It's just what culturally and society, like society has decided. And the more we talk about that the more we push back against it, the better it's going to be for everyone.
- [38:57]
B
I want to pivot a little bit and talk a little bit about another topic which really is about emotional literacy, which is, I think, a great term. It's a new term, but I think it's a really important way of looking at it, is, you know, what do you think emotional literacy means?
- [39:14]
C
Emotional literacy is the ability to understand and connect with and communicate emotions, right? And the full spectrum of them. It's oftentimes we talk about anger, fear, joy, sadness, right? Like these core basic emotions. But there's a whole wheel, a whole spectrum of emotions all in between. And so emotional literacy is something that you have to work towards, you have to build understanding and knowledge around, but it makes a huge difference, and it makes me think of something else. So we have this piece called Affect Labeling. And what that means is if you can put a name to what you're feeling, a name to the emotion, then it takes some of the bite away from it. And when you can learn more about emotions and you have more words and more ways to express and understand what's happening, the better that happens. If you think about it, like if you go into a scary situation and the lights are off and you don't know what could be waiting in the room, when you turn the lights on and you can see, suddenly the fear of the unknown is lessened. It may not be totally gone, but if you can turn the lights on in emotional literacy to understand what you're feeling and understand the underlying, the secret things that might exist under those feelings, it can really expand and take a lot of the concern and fear away from expressing and living within those emotions. And so emotional literacy is really giving yourself the ability to feel the full spectrum.
- [40:57]
B
I love that response to that, and I think you hit the nail on the head, too. There's another piece that was touched on, on too, which is like the mind body connection, and that got really emphasized. James talked a lot about how when he got in tune with his physical self, it helped him to get clarity around his emotional self. You know, what are your just general thoughts about that kind of work? Like, that somatic work and the mind body connection as a whole. When it comes to, again, that emotional literacy piece,
- [41:31]
C
that's really incredibly powerful because the somatic work, the work in the body can unlock all the blocks around emotion, right? If we never learned the words for things, we never had the opportunity to verbally express them. We still feel them in our bodies. You know, our amygdala Our emotional centers understand fear. They understand excitement. But we may not be able to express it in words or in writing or in those kind of more traditional ways, but our body feels it. Our body knows what's happening. So if you can get in tune with, you know, what does it mean when my stomach feels like it's doing flips, right? Or what does it feel? What does it mean when my heart is suddenly pounding really fast or I feel lightheaded? If you can get in touch with that, you can start putting more words to those emotions. You can start identifying what those feel like. And your body oftentimes knows what you're feeling before you do. What's great about that process is there's so many things you can do about it that aren't that don't feel like we're like, learning, like we're in school. You can work out. You can go to the gym, you can run, you can walk. You can do something physical with your hands, like washing the dishes. You can work through and challenge physical sensations by doing physical activities. And that can help move emotions through your body and help you process what's going on in a way that's much harder to do verbally or talking to someone.
- [43:12]
B
But I think that's a key and crucial component of what people often miss, is that when you're doing those physical activities, you are actually creating that mental strength and if you will, almost neuroplasticity around being able to better understand your cognition, but then your emotional self, because there is just that connection. I don't think we talk about that enough. Is like, you're not just taking care of your physical self. You're taking care of up here as well when you're doing those things. You know, I know I stress clean, but even in that, that it gives me clarity when I'm doing those actions. Like you said, washing dishes or just generally cleaning. We've been doing a lot of, like, purging in the house, getting rid of the old, you know, which, oh, my God, so therapeutic. It. It is. It's that time of the year. Doing the action of it is actually the work in and of itself, at least for me. I get that relief and that reprieve. And then it's like a. Oh, you know, now that I think about it, I have been pretty XYZ about this. It gives that clarity and like you said earlier, being able to name the emotion, right. It supports that emotional literacy. So going on to relationships, you know, relationships are complicated. They come with a lot of other. You Know layers associated with it, but then add into their being vulnerable in them, you know? You know, when it comes to what healthy vulnerability looks like, especially for men, what would you say are some green flags, so to speak?
- [44:54]
C
I love this and I think that people should talk about this all the time. But healthy green flags are when someone is open to talking about their feelings or they're open to saying I can't talk about this right now, or I need a moment. There is something so powerful about someone being able to recognize I'm feeling overwhelmed or I'm feeling frustrated, or I'm feeling something that I can't even name and I need a moment to feel it before I can continue a conversation. That's a huge green flag for vulnerability. Also somebody who's open to listening to someone else's vulnerability and being receptive of that and receptive of how someone else is feeling. You know, vulnerability and relationship are a two way street. Intimacy can't exist without vulnerability. You, you need to be vulnerable. You need to share parts of yourself that aren't necessarily as visible in the world around you with someone you want to be intimate and close to. Otherwise that, that intimacy is going to have holes in it. It's going to be challenging to connect. And so if you are dating someone or talking to someone and they're open to sharing their feelings, they're open to talking about those things. It, it's a huge green flag.
- [46:20]
B
The ability to ask for space and hold space, right? Like that's how I, I'm like, you know, summarizing what you just said is being able to say this is when and where and how I need space. Right. And then I need you to hold that space for me too. And having that willingness to do so. Right. Because it is in fact a partnership. It isn't a one way street. It is a two way street. It needs to be both ways, you know, for sure. 100% perfect way to put it.
- [46:51]
C
Be able to, to hold space and take space.
- [46:56]
B
Yes, absolutely. You know, you know, when my husband has a bad day, I can see it, I can feel it. And I'm like, I look, giving him the look and he's like, I'll talk to you later. And it's understood. It's like code for after the kids go to bed. Because literally we have no privacy when they're around. So it's like we can't get a word in edgewise anyway. But then, and it's literally as soon as they are tucked in, doors are closed, lights are off, we take a minute and catch up. And he fills me in and he will give me that immediate, hey, I don't need a fix. You know, because that's important too, is just to be able to be like, all right, I got you. It's just about being able to say, I don't have a solution, but I'm here.
- [47:42]
C
Absolutely. And reinforcing those moments of vulnerability. So if, if your partner struggles with vulnerability and that's something you're working on together, if they express themselves or even share, hey, I, I don't know how to express myself or I don't know what I need in this moment. Reinforcing that by giving them the space, by communicating, you know, I really appreciate you've shared this or I appreciate we're talking about it. Can, can make leaps and bounds in improving that relationship communication because it's so easy sometimes, like you were sharing. You don't. Someone comes into it emotionally charged and you're unprepared. And when we respond negatively to that or we push back or we then take it on or become overwhelmed, that can sometimes shut people down and make it harder to express in the future. So being open to that and receptive and then communicating, you know, thank you. I appreciate it. This is, you know, it's really valuable to know where you're at without solutioning, without trying to, you know, fix the problem can be incredibly powerful and a huge green flag.
- [48:52]
B
So we had another listener question where, you know, they wanted to know, how can I help a man become more emotionally available?
- [49:03]
C
So as a partner, you can't make anyone become emotionally available. Like, you can't force it on someone, you can't teach someone and change the behavior. But if you create the space for them to be emotionally available, if you show yourself being emotionally available and communicate that way, that's a great way for others to learn and to be able to start that process and that journey for themselves. Like, if I can express something that's going on for me, that might trigger something for your partner saying, oh yeah, you know what? That is what I'm feeling. That is the challenge in this situation that I'm working through that I couldn't name before.
- [49:48]
B
Yep, I love that. The modeling piece especially. I think it's really, really, really important. You know, when we learn to, we learn by watching. You know, oftentimes I want to wrap, you know, move towards wrapping up here and talking a little bit about parenting for a second. You know, James has a two year old daughter and one of the things that he shared about is that, you know, he is, you know, really trying to again, model and instill that idea of experiencing the full spectrum of emotions. Just experiencing it, you know, acknowledging it, embracing it, you know. Do you think parenthood has that ability to change our own connection with our emotional experiences and vulnerabilities, especially as men?
- [50:37]
C
Absolutely, yeah. Parenting is a job and a challenge and a whole bunch of things in and of itself. And when you are raising a child who is unbridled with their emotions. Right. You know, kids don't come out of, of the womb suppressing how they're feeling. Right. That's a learned behavior. When you can see others, you know, in this case, a child expressing themselves and you can connect with them and empathize and you work to understand what they're feeling and how to support them through those feelings, that's going to help you expand personally as well. You know, that you build your own emotional intelligence from that experience.
- [51:22]
B
Yep. No, it's so true. It stretches you. And again, sharing from personal experience, I mean, mine, mine have definitely done that, I think. And again, I'm speaking as a woman, but I think that's the piece that struck me is that for a man, you know, to be able to say, this is something, you know, this is the experiences I've had growing up where I have suppressed and I have pushed down and hidden myself, and here I am a father now, and that's not even an option on the table, you know, And I think that that just speaks to that evolution that we can hope to experience. And again, proves your point, like, there's no real age to not learn. Right. We can learn and relearn. I think at any stage, it's just a question of whether or not you're ready and if that's the work that you're willing to do for that. So I think, I think, yeah, it was really great hearing that. One of the other things that Corey spoke about is, you know, he aspires to be what he called a full spectrum human. What do you think that means?
- [52:29]
C
I really love that he said this. A full spectrum human. And when I think about it, I think of full spectrum human is someone who no longer exiles parts of themselves in order to feel worthy. And what I mean by that is a full spectrum human is someone who is able to connect with all of those parts, the good, the bad, everything in between, and recognizes that they're worthy as an individual, as the person they are fully, without having to push those things aside and say, like, this isn't a part of me because it's all a part of us. It's all a part of our experience and how we move through the world. And it's so sad to see people push down those feelings because the more you push down even the bad stuff, the more you push down sadness, the less you can feel joy. And so everything kind of starts to get a little bit numb. So a full spectrum human is someone who can live within that spectrum and is open to feeling the good along with the bad.
- [53:41]
B
You always say the most profound things in like the simplest way and I love it. Thank you again, David so much for joining me today on this episode. It was a really great meeting with Corey and James that I really truly love and enjoy, you know, going through these episodes with you and having these conversations because I just feel like you just add such a great depth to it. So I really appreciate you.
- [54:05]
C
Thank you so much. And I really appreciate having this conversation. I think this topic is so important.
- [54:11]
B
This is an ad by BetterHelp. In this episode we're talking about emotional vulnerability, masculinity, and the pressure so many men feel to hide parts of themselves in order to appear strong. But when emotions stay buried for too long, it can impact relationships, self worth, or our ability to truly connect with other people. Learning how to express what you're feeling or even identify it in the first place takes practice, and therapy can help create a space to do that without judgment. BetterHelp makes it easy to get the support you deserve. Visit betterhelp.com mindifwetalk for 10% off your first month, that's better. H lp.com mindifwetalk I want to give a big thank you to Better Help for their passion for this project and for giving us a platform to champion the well being in all of us. Mind if We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with Better Help and hosted by me, Sri La Green. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review in Spotify or Apple podcasts and share the episode with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life and remember your happiness matters. Mind if we Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.