I wish you knew…how hard it is to break the toxic relationship cycle

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mind If We Talk? — “I Wish You Knew…How Hard It Is To Break The Toxic Relationship Cycle”

Host: Sreela Roy-Greene (Licensed Mental Health Counselor)
Guests: Holly Salem (musician, model, writer), Carre Kwong Callaway (musician), David Yadish (Licensed Therapist, BetterHelp)
Date: April 23, 2026
Episode Theme: Breaking the Cycle of Toxic Relationships

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Episode Overview

This episode opens up an honest, vulnerable conversation about why breaking the cycle of toxic relationships is so challenging. It explores the profound effect of childhood relationship models, how we internalize unhealthy patterns, and the steps required to move toward healthy, secure love. The heart of the episode is a candid dialogue between close friends Holly and Carre, who share their contrasting experiences with unhealthy dating patterns and their growth journeys into self-love and healthier partnerships. The episode concludes with actionable insights from therapist David Yadish on understanding these cycles—emotionally, physically, and behaviorally—and practical advice on forging new, healthier relationship paths.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. How Relationship Patterns Are Formed

• Childhood Modeling: Both Holly and Carre described growing up amidst dysfunctional relationships: infidelity, addiction, and chaos were normalized.
  • Holly: “I never saw any truthful, healthy relationship growing up ever...my understanding of them, it’s very toxic, to say the least.” [06:14]
  • Carre: “I think I romanticized that...I thought love was just supposed to be painful and toxic and intense.” [06:43]
• Internalizing Dysfunction: The guests discussed how early experiences set their neural “default” toward drama and emotional intensity, making stability feel “boring” or unfamiliar.

2. The Challenge of Change: Wanting vs. Needing

• Knowing you need to change isn’t enough; you must want to change, which requires willingness to leave familiar chaos behind.
  • Holly: "It’s not just doing things differently and knowing you need to do things differently, but also getting yourself to want to do things differently." [09:04]
• Both described a painful process akin to addiction withdrawal in giving up chaotic relationships, emphasizing how intoxicating they can be.
  • “It feels...like a drug. It’s like a hit. So you don’t really want to give that up.” —Holly [09:22]

3. Taking a Break, Dating Yourself, and Self-Discovery

• Intentional Singleness: Both women took a break from dating after their lowest points (sobriety, divorce) to relearn how to be alone and reset their relationship templates.
  • Carre: “I dated myself...just with myself. And that was so hard. But then, like, became the most empowering thing ever because I learned how to be alone, and I relearned how to be an adult and be a person.” [11:05]
  • Holly: Discovered that past relationships were about “trying to fill a hole” from childhood and performed for validation rather than genuine connection. [15:49]
• List-Making for Growth: Carre made a list of what she wanted in a partner—then realized she needed to become those traits herself: “Why would you expect something from someone else that you don’t have yourself?...So I had to become my list.” [19:38]

4. Modern Dating: Social Media & Dating Apps

• Cynicism and Skepticism: Both express concerns that social media and apps flatten nuance, promote dishonesty, and foster “parasocial” relationships rather than authentic ones.
  • Holly: “I think social media is the worst...it’s actually really dangerous...not a recipe for successful relationships.” [21:53]
  • Personal anecdote: Holly passed on her current partner twice based on his social profiles and nearly missed out. [22:47]

5. Red Flags vs. Green Flags in Relationships

• Red Flags:
  • Inconsistency (“someone who’s really there, then not” — Carre [24:07])
  • Love bombing (“immediate, like, love at first sight, showering you with...‘you’re the most amazing’...I learned that one the hard way” — Holly [24:27])
  • Lying (even small lies) [25:03]
  • “All my exes are crazy” and men with deep-seated issues with women [25:20]
• Green Flags:
  • Consistency and following through [25:56]
  • Healthy, long-standing friendships [26:14]
  • Amicable relationships with exes, respectful communication
  • Willingness to move slowly and maintain boundaries (“the slowness of it...made me trust it a lot more” — Holly [26:30])
  • Kindness to service workers, self-respect, and self-care [27:19]

6. Healthy Love Feels Different

• Both reflect that healthy relationships lack volatility and drama.
  • “It wasn’t that it felt boring. I just was confused because…the first couple dates I was like, does this guy like me?...He wasn’t love bombing me…It was weird.” — Carre [29:05]
  • “Having just the stability, the kindness, like the trust...maybe it’s just part of growing up.” — Holly [30:07]
• Key Reframe: Peace and reliability can at first feel “boring” if you’re only used to chaos, but are actually signs of secure attachment.

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Expert Commentary: Unpacking the Cycle with Therapist David Yadish

1. Roots of Toxic Patterns (35:18)

• We learn love by imitation—children exposed to chaos make chaos their baseline for “normal.”
  • “Chaotic love...feels like the norm. That’s what we seek out in relationships.” [35:18]
• The brain prioritizes predictability over health; we seek what feels familiar, even if unhealthy. [36:16]

2. Why Breaking the Cycle Is So Hard

• “You don’t break the cycle by thinking differently. You actually break the cycle by choosing to do differently.” [39:58]
• Tools discussed:
  • Body awareness: Learn to tell the difference between excitement (nervous/hyper-arousal) and safety/peace.
  • Opposite Action (DBT tool): When you notice your old patterns, practice deliberately doing the opposite, retraining your nervous system. [41:37]

3. The Essential Step: Learning to Be Alone

• “Giving yourself some time to be alone...get to know yourself. We generally are afraid to be alone. I think that’s pretty common because being alone with ourselves is hard.” [42:03]
• Self-dates, reflection, and list-making are concrete ways to rebuild identity outside relationship context.

4. Challenging Guilt and Codependency

• “Being selfish is totally acceptable...the foundation of health is self care.” [45:25]
• Losing oneself by pouring into others or relationships fosters codependency and obscures self-knowledge.

5. Trust and Recognizing Green Flags

• “Actions speak louder than words...If you observe green flags and take inventory...remind yourself you are deserving of those things.” [52:33]
• Learning to trust: Trust builds from repeated experiences of safety (“peace feels quiet, not empty” — David Yadish [59:49]).

6. Listener Question Highlight: ‘Am I the Problem?’

• A powerful exchange addresses self-blame after repeated relationship failure.
  • “It’s not about you being too much...you’re not used to people who can give you what you need and what you deserve.” [60:47]
  • “It’s not that you’re the problem. You just haven’t found your fit with the right tribe or right person.” — Sreela Roy-Greene [62:01]

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

On Breaking Familiar Patterns

“We often find ourselves in repetitive patterns. And you’re talking about the…difference between needing to change versus wanting to change. Until we recognize it’s not just a need, it’s a want, the motivation may not always be there to make that happen.” — Sreela Roy-Greene [10:19]

On Choosing Yourself

“I dated myself….That was so hard. But then, like, became the most empowering thing ever because I learned how to be alone, and I relearned how to be an adult and be a person.” — Carre [11:05]

On Healthy Love

“I do have to say, though…maybe it’s just part of growing up… it’s nice having just the stability, the kindness, like the trust.” — Holly [30:07]

On What Secure Connection Feels Like

“Peace feels quiet, not empty.” — David Yadish [59:49]

On Deserving Love

“If you feel like you’re undeserving of something, then why would anyone else be deserving of it?...Actions speak louder than words.” — David Yadish [52:33]

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Important Segments & Timestamps

• [06:14] Guests’ childhood relationship models and their long-term impact
• [09:04] The challenge of wanting versus needing to change
• [11:05] Taking a break from dating as a form of recovery
• [15:49] Discovering emotional voids and performing for validation
• [19:38] “Becoming your own list” of values/traits before seeking a partner
• [21:53] The pitfalls of social media and dating app representations
• [24:07] Red flags: inconsistency, love bombing, and more
• [25:56] Green flags: consistency, boundaries, kindness
• [29:05] How healthy love can feel unfamiliar or “boring”
• [35:18] Expert breakdown: family of origin, why we choose chaos
• [39:58] How to break the cycle: do differently, not just think differently
• [42:03] Concrete actions for self-discovery (date yourself, identify values)
• [45:25] Challenging guilt and codependency in healing
• [52:33] Accepting green flags & learning to trust
• [59:49] Distinguishing boredom from peace: “Peace feels quiet, not empty.”
• [60:38] Listener Q&A: Self-blame and loneliness after failed relationships

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Takeaway Practical Tips

• Recognize patterns: Reflect on your relationship history and notice recurring dynamics.
• Practice “opposite action” when you notice old toxic pulls—try to act against your default.
• List your values, boundaries, and “must-haves”—then start embodying them yourself.
• Date yourself: Give yourself quality solo time to get clear about authentic needs and desires.
• Prioritize self-care and self-acceptance—selfishness, in this context, is foundational to true connection.
• Don’t ignore green flags: Allow yourself to feel deserving of kindness, respect, and consistent care.
• Trust your instincts: If your gut tells you something’s off, listen to it—don’t gaslight yourself.
• Remember: If you feel unlovable, you’re likely repeating misaligned patterns—not fundamentally flawed.

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This episode gently, yet fearlessly, explores the reality of breaking toxic cycles—reminding listeners that while healing can feel uncomfortable and unfamiliar, it’s entirely possible to rewrite your love story, starting with self-compassion and conscious action.

Transcript

[Holly Salem]

It's not just doing things differently and knowing you need to do things differently, but also getting yourself to want to do things differently. Because I think your nervous system, it's just what's familiar and gravitating towards that kind of chaos and intensity, it's really intoxicating. Hey, can I talk to you about something? I wish you knew.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I wish you knew how lonely menopause felt.

[David Yadish]

I wish you knew why it's so hard for men to share their feelings.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I wish you knew what it was

[David Yadish]

like growing up in a low income family.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I wish you knew how hard it

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

was not having a college degree.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I wish you knew what it's like to be me. Welcome back to Mind if We Talk where you get to be a fly on the wall for mini therapy sessions and learn some mental health tips in the process. I'm Sreela Roy Greene, a licensed mental health Counselor with over 19 years of experience and your host for season two. In this season, we're bringing people together who see the world a little differently and who want to understand one another better. In each episode, I sit down with two people who've agreed to have a real vulnerable conversation. Together we explore the thorny emotions and topics they may have turned away from in the past. After each mini therapy session, I'll sit down with an expert to break down what we heard and how you might apply it to your own life. Today we're going to unpack one of life's most common challenges. Dating. Finding a loving partner can be one of the most rewarding parts of life. But why is it so hard to get there? Why do so many of us continue to fall into unhealthy patterns when it comes to choosing a partner or have difficulty maintaining a healthy relationship? To start? The relationship models we were given as children can play a big role here. We are more likely to be attracted to what is familiar and that may or may not be healthy. And there are many areas worth examining when it comes to finding a good partner and becoming one ourselves. From our own sense of self worth to setting boundaries to learning to trust. The list goes on. Relationships take work, and the work we need to do is on a wide spectrum. Ultimately, we must look within ourselves and see where our behaviors might limit the love we want before we find our ideal partner. Today I sat down with two friends who have had very different experiences with love and dating. Holly Salem is a musician, model and writer. She is joined by her friend Carre Kwong Callaway, who is also a musician. Holly reports a history of attracting toxic relationships which were explosive and exciting but tended to burn out quickly. Whereas Carre's behavior was different but not necessarily healthier, she tended to jump into long term relationships rather fast. She even at one point found herself in a volatile marriage that ended in a messy divorce. Both women eventually realized that they needed to take a break from relationships and to find ways to break their cycles. They took stock of their behavioral patterns and started to recognize what unhealthy traits they were continuously attracted to. In addition to learning what behaviors they needed to shift from within, they both learned firsthand that we can't truly accept or give love if we don't have it for ourselves first. So join me as I sit down with Corain Hollywood to unpack the challenging relationships they endured before. Ultimately, they learned to identify and trust the signs of a healthy relationship. Later in this episode we will discuss actionable tips to help you improve this area of your life. I'll sit down with licensed therapist David Yadish from BetterHelp to explore breaking toxic cycles, how to make time for yourself, and trusting when you have found someone who makes you feel at peace. Let's get to talking. You know you've both been friends for a very long time. You know how and when did you meet and you know, what stage of life were you in?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I'm like friends or enemies? Yeah, we did start out on the wrong foot if I guess I'm putting that lightly. Well, you were I think in your teenage teenagers and I was in my early 20s, so that was quite a while ago because I'm now 43 years old and I went over to Kirei's house. Her boyfriend was a music producer songwriter and I went to work with him on a song and we hooked up. My boyfriend cheated on me with Holly.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

That's how we met.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

That's how we met. It's such a cute stuff. I found out later that Carre was in fact his girlfriend and not his roommate. And then I felt horrible. It was really awkward for many years, for about 20 years.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

It's so funny to hear the story. Not maybe in the moment it wasn't funny, but it doesn't sound like it was. But I'm listening to you both and you're both laughing about it, you're both reflecting on it, and yet here you are today, able to sit in the same space and kind of share that memory and have a different view of it. I think that's pretty incredible in terms of how sometimes relationships don't always start off on the right foot. But Then you can make it right.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Definitely. I mean, Carre and I are really, really good friends now, and I think we came to the conclusion that the man was to blame in this situation.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

But yet such a beautiful friendship came out of that. It's quite a friendship story. You know, we're talking about relationships and how relationships form and, you know, when you think back on what types of relationships were modeled for you both growing up, you know, how do you feel you carried that into your adult life?

[Holly Salem]

I guess I grew up and my parents were never together. I never saw any truthful, healthy relationship growing up ever. There's a lot of cheating and lying and abuse. So, yeah, relationships from the get go were modeled. Like, my understanding of them, it's very toxic, to say the least.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Yeah, I had a similar situation. My parents were together in a very intense and passionate way when I was growing up, and there was breaking up and getting back together and separating. Getting back together, like a very messy divorce, young parents, like, lots of addiction in my family. And I just, I saw just a lot of, like, chaos and intensity. And I. I think I romanticized that. And I think it's just what I thought love was. I thought love was just supposed to be painful and toxic and intense feelings of just like, I can't live without you and then I hate you and like, just really no middle ground. And I definitely brought that into my adult life and into my relationships.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yeah, I think you're both speaking to the crux of it, which is that we learn what we are modeled. Right. And when we don't know different or better, it teaches us to repeat those same patterns oftentimes unless we choose to break that pattern. Right. And I think you're both speaking to, like, lessons learned and having that insight and understanding and ability to see like, this wasn't healthy. I can do different, you know?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Yeah. It took me a long time to figure out how to do it different. I guess in doing it different, I just went kind of into, like, avoiding relationships because the ones I had had sort of like, taken me out. Like, like, almost like a, like a drug. Like, they'd been really toxic and really bad for me. So I sort of like, was like, I'm gonna do it different. I'm going to just be alone forever. And then, you know, I think it takes a long time to learn how to change. And you do need some sort of modeling. And, you know, it kind of made me question if, like, love was real, like, if unconditional love was a thing or like a healthy relationship could Also be enjoyable.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah, I think that's a good point where it's not just doing things differently and knowing you need to do things differently, but also getting yourself to want to do things differently, because I think your nervous system, it's just what's familiar.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yeah.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

And

[Holly Salem]

gravitating towards that kind of chaos and intensity, it's really intoxicating. And to have to really make a decision and commit to something that maybe seems boring in comparison or, you know, you have to want. Really want to do it, because you may know that it would be best for you not to engage in these relationships. But it feels so familiar, and it is like a drug. It's like a hit. So you don't really want to give that up. It feels, you know, it takes a long time to really kind of have to burn yourself out on it.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I also think there's, like, an energetic thing where you kind of just attract in the same kind of person in the same scenario, like, over and over and over again until you finally learn the lesson the hard way.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yeah, a few times.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah, a few times.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Many times. Many, many times.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

So, yeah, everything that you're. You're both sharing, and it will resonate for a lot of those who are listening and watching, because it is. We often find ourselves in repetitive patterns. And you're talking about the. There's a difference between needing to change versus wanting to change. And until we recognize, like, it's not just a need, it's a want, the motivation may not always be there to make that happen. I am going to pivot a bit because we've talked about it a little bit. We touched on it, but I do want to ask Holly for you. You know, you are incredibly open about getting sober and then taking a break from dating. You just kind of spoke to it a little bit. What did that break feel like for you?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

It was such a swing in the opposite direction. When I got sober, I realized I had to also get sober from relationships and, like, relearn how to live. So it felt like I was a monk in the Himalayas and, like, I was just alone in a cave because, yeah, I just kind of shut myself off from, like, you know, dating and sexuality, and I felt like a child actually. You know, they do say when you get sober, you kind of pick up from where you left off when you started using. So I was probably emotionally, like, 12 years old, and I really felt that I didn't have any of my numbing agents. Like, I didn't have, like, the attention of men or dating or, like, you know, sex or drugs or anything that I used in the past to, like, check out, I was just, like, with myself. And that was so hard. But then, like, became the most empowering thing ever because I learned how to be alone, and I relearned how to be an adult and be a person.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

And so you dated yourself?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I did. I dated myself, and then I dated myself for a long time. So there were just so many factors that made it, like, I gotta stop.

[Holly Salem]

Stop everything. Yeah.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Thank you for sharing that, Karay. I wanna talk a little bit about you. Around that same time parallel, you know, you were going through a different stage of life or a different learning, which is you were already married, if my timeline is correct. And how did you expect marriage to be different from dating?

[Holly Salem]

I always had really long relationships, like, at least three to five years at minimum. I think before I got married, I never really looked at what I truly was wanting or needing in a relationship. Not even that, but a step further. Which is why I kept creating these, like, homes and domesticating, like, domestic situations and why I was so intent on, quote, unquote, like, settling down in some kind of traditional way, which didn't align with anything else about my personality or my career or life. So getting married, it made total sense to me because I've always wanted to be married and have, like, a home and have my own family with somebody. But I didn't ever question really why and where that was actually coming from, which I had to do when I got divorced.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Well, that's actually my next question. How did it. I think you just. You segued beautifully right there into that Mary marriage ending. As difficult as I'm sure it was, because I think it's difficult for everybody going through something like that. Did it impact or reframe or change that perspective for you of the what and the why?

[Holly Salem]

Yeah, definitely the what and why. Actually, it wasn't just about relationships. It was more about me and all the things that I thought I wanted and needed up to that point, I had to put in question, similar to Holly. Like, it was definitely. The divorce, was losing everything. So it was kind of a rock bottom in that way. And at that point, you know, you're in survival mode, so every day seems impossible. But when I did somewhat come out the other side of it, I really had to question, like, what the hell I had been chasing my entire life. And that's when I realized it was a me thing. I definitely invited that relationship, ignored many red flags, and I had to examine really, like, why, what was I Actually getting out of it.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Did you reach any conclusions about the why?

[Holly Salem]

Yeah, it's actually pretty simple. I had a very big hole inside of myself from childhood, childhood trauma, essentially, and I was just chasing ways to fill that hole. I think that intensity and the validation and the reassurance was, you know, was to temporarily fill a hole in me. And same with all the long relationships and marriage and the wanting to create a home life, even though I personally really wasn't capable or ready for that. Just the kind of facade of safety and comfort I really wanted and needed to make me feel stable. But I never really examined until my divorce, like, why, like what that was really coming from.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

What you just shared is so common. You know, it's that. That need that we're trying to fulfill, yet we can't put words to it. Thank you again for being so vulnerable and for sharing that, because I know that that's not easy to revisit. When did you know it was time to start dating again? Was it an internal thing? External? Like, what was that? What did that feel like for you?

[Holly Salem]

I think we probably have really different answers.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Okay, so I was very intentionally celibate and alone for. I gave myself a year and then it kept going because then it was like weird and kind of scary. I was like, afraid to like kiss somebody. Also, I'd never really done any, had any of these experiences sober. So it just felt like serious and important with like whoever I first did that with or any of that stuff with. After maybe three years, I was like, it's time for me to start dating. And I pushed myself out of my little nest and I got on the apps and I started, you know, trying to put that energy out there. But even then, like, I still felt really juvenile. And it took me a long time to feel comfortable, like as an adult in my sexuality sober, just because I didn't, I still hadn't like, I didn't have like a model of like what I was looking for, what was possible for me.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

So.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

But then it was cool because then I had to like sort of relearn how to date from this new place of like really consciousness, awareness and trying to be healthy and still making mistakes and allowing that to happen and be okay with it.

[Holly Salem]

For me, I had always gone from one long term relationship to another. And then after my divorce, it was like really devastating. And I think, like, I spoke about, I was really questioning my intentions and the whys of things. And I realized that even sex for me was to a degree, like, not even about me, not Even not even about the actual act of like, the actual act of sex or like my actual pleasure, but just a way of getting attention or, like performative in a way. And so, like, as soon as I figured that out, it was really easy for me to just be celibate for a while. I think I just. When I really pieced together the things I was seeking out in the past, but they weren't really serving me. When I really owned those, that's when I felt more ready to meet people in a different way.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Yeah, I will say too, like, I did start being very conscious about. I made a list of what I'm looking for in a person. And then I also was like, well, am I this list? Am I the things on this list? And when I wasn't, I was like, okay, I have to like, become this to call this in. Why would you, you know, expect something from someone else that you don't have yourself?

[Holly Salem]

That is such a good point. Like, love that. Yeah, I think that I agree with that. Like, why am I expecting somebody to be a perfect boyfriend when I am not a perfect girlfriend or whatever?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

So I had to become my list.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I love that. Become your own list.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Yeah.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I'd be curious to know your opinions, your thoughts on how do you feel social media has and dating apps and all of the above, all the stuff that goes with it. How do you feel it's changed the dating landscape?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I mean, everything is different. Just how we connect with people and yeah, I've been dating since before social media and you used to just meet people in person and that's definitely a preferred way to meet people. It's very hard to see when you're scrolling through a dating app and you're just seeing pictures with like, maybe like a little, you know, one liner and just whatever these people choose to share about themselves. It's hard to. As the person scrolling and looking, it's hard to see these people as people. And I think that's the scariest part of dating apps for me or what I've noticed social media, maybe you get a little bit more of a picture into someone and sometimes that can actually be really helpful because you might get some information that is important that you maybe wouldn't have otherwise learned about somebody if you just met them in person. So, you know, I don't think it's all bad. I think it goes both ways.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I agree.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah, I think social media is the worst.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

To be frank.

[Holly Salem]

We all seem to have like, parasocial relationships or like with everybody. And I think it's actually really dangerous to be honest and is not a recipe for successful relationships of any kind. Even like relationships to self. I would have a hard time trusting anyone who wanted to get involved with me or have any kind of relationship with me if they only knew what I have up on my social media because it's not all encompassing. And I'm. My boyfriend. I've been with him for seven and a half years. And to be honest, when I saw his social media page at first, before I met him, I passed.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I was like, no, this guy is not the guy I want to be with.

[Holly Salem]

And I even. I was at a dating app for a second and he actually popped up on that dating app and I passed.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

You're like, ew.

[Holly Salem]

I was like, ew.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I don't wanna. That is not the guy for me. Also, like, I've had people, you know, think they wanna date me because of my social media and my, you know, that they get to know that Persona and my writing and who I am publicly. And, like, that's totally alarming. Like, Yeah.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I think that just goes to prove that the. Again, to your point, the Persona or the presentation is not always in line with or factually based off of your true self. You know, it isn't. People lie a lot.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

A lot on social media, dating apps.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yeah.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Or they inflate themselves in the truth.

[Holly Salem]

They're lying to themselves too. And it gets to a point where we're just, you know, I think people are like, who am I?

[Sreela Roy Greene]

This is a question to both of you. If you were to think about strange behavior, red flags in dating or in relationships to go a little bit deeper, what pops up for the two of you?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Inconsistency. Like somebody who can't. Yeah. Who's like, really there and then they're not. And then you can't. Then they go away and then they come back. Just any kind of inconsistency is like, no, just don't even bother.

[Holly Salem]

Love bombing is the one for me. Like, anything that.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Yeah, that's.

[Holly Salem]

I learned that one the hard way. But anything that goes into that immediate, like, love at first sight, showering you with. You know, I've never felt this way before. I've never this. That you're the most amazing.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Blah, blah, blah, like, right away.

[Holly Salem]

Right away.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Like, yeah.

[Holly Salem]

I mean, I got married based on, like, a love bombing, like courtship. And I really learned the hard way because it was very intoxicating. But after that experience, that is a huge red flag. It really scares me.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

That's a really good one. Yeah, I mean, I would say just like catching somebody in. In lies is a pretty, pretty big red flag. Even if it's just like weird little things and, you know, you're like, why?

[Holly Salem]

Why would you lie about that? I think it's a red flag also when people, they say that all of their exes were crazy.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Huge red flag.

[Holly Salem]

Like, there's no way all. Like, if that's true, then there's something wrong about you. Like, if you. You know what I mean? Like, oh, women are just crazy. Oh, my exes were crazy.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Like, a guy hates his mother. You gotta be careful.

[Holly Salem]

I guess that's more than three red flags.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

No, hey, that's more than I asked for, so I'm not gonna complain. I'll take what I can get. We could keep.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Keep going.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

But flip side of the coin, what are some of the green flags that stand out for you?

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Kind of the opposite, like, consistency. Like somebody who just does what they say they're going to do and, like, shows up someone who has friends. These are all green flags. Like people who, you know, are busy but still make time for you.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah. Or who don't have horrible relationships with their exes. I don't think they have to be friends, but if it was like, you know, they speak about them in a respectful way or amicable breakups. I think friends is a good one. People who have had friends for a

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

long time, friends is a really good one.

[Holly Salem]

Not people who just recycle friends every second. I also think for me, I mean, just given what I went through personally, I think one of the biggest green flags, which was actually really frustrating about the relationship I'm in, but it was a good thing was like, really the slowness of it where he was actually very honest about. I was kind of used to guys just being like, I love you, let's get married. And you know, and just like the love bombing thing. But he was just like, there really is no rush here. Like, we don't need to be living together after a week. And at first it was like a personal insult, but I realized he was kind of like emotionally mature and looking out after himself. And there was like an element of caring for himself that really helped with the pacing of our relationship that actually in the long run made me trust it a lot more.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Yeah, like, boundaries, like, and really, like just self respect. Like, boundaries are really, are really cool. Like people that just, yeah. Want to take care of themselves. People that are healthy. The way people treat, like people in service. When you go to a restaurant that's Really a green flag when they're like, kind to everybody.

[Holly Salem]

Everybody. Yeah, yeah.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

That's actually been a very common rule of thumb for a long time. And I agree. I agree. You know, being in healthy relationships now, what would you say are the biggest surprises you've gotten? Corre you spoke about this just a few minutes ago. Like, the pacing, you know, there isn't this love bomb. There isn't this intensity, which is kind of boring sometimes. 100%, yeah.

[Holly Salem]

And I really have to check myself. Especially after seven and a half years, the relationship I'm in is definitely the healthiest, most successful. I'm happy. I'm hopefully going to be in it for the rest of my life. However, it has not been a whirlwind romance. Like, it's not intense, it's not dramatic. But that's another green flag, I think is like, when guys have boundaries around drama. Like, they're not willing to, like, take the bait or play games. And that's something my boyfriend was really good about. Like, every time I kind of tried to be a little push pulley or play some sort of game for reassurance, he actually like, really cut it down. He's like, what are you actually trying to get at right now? Like, he really would not play the game. And honestly, it was a little. Felt boring to me. And I was like, oh, maybe this isn't love. Cause like, I thought love was supposed to be right? Drama, intensity.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I mean, that's what they always say. That's like what my therapist said. Like, it might feel boring. And I am in a healthy relationship now for the first time in my whole entire life. And it wasn't that it felt boring. I just was confused because, like, the first couple dates I was like, does this guy like me? Because he wasn't love bombing me. Like, I didn't even know if he wanted to date me because I didn't feel like he was flirting with me. So I couldn't tell if he was even interested in me. I was just like, why is he here? Does he, like, want to be my friend? Does he want to work with me? Like, I had no idea that he like, was deeply crushing on me because he wasn't love bombing me. And it was weird.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah, I had the same thing. Yeah, it's so true. And I, I mean, oh, God. Now I was just thinking, what if my boyfriend watches this and he's like, boring.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

I mean, compared him, like, we weren't

[Holly Salem]

like, you know, being violent towards each other and throwing things and breaking things. I do have to say, though, like, it is nice. Maybe it's just part of growing up, though, is just like, it's nice having just the stability, the kindness, like the trust. Yeah.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

Somebody who's nice to you. Like, somebody who, yeah, just like, never, like, holds your emotions against you or makes you feel bad for anything about who you are. Like, somebody who accepts you and is.

[Holly Salem]

I do think the intensity and stuff, like, in the chaos, it's draining.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

It's really draining. And I believe everybody should be uplifting. It should make your life better and easier, and it should never drain you.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yeah. A lot of the green flags that you were just describing, I think, also serve as some really great advice for people who are going into relationships or just starting out in healthier relationships and what to look for. Like, not getting love bombed sometimes at times feeling like it's a little bit on the boring side. But ultimately, you're respected, you're cared for. You're not a burden. You feel like you can hold. You can be in someone's space and they hold space for you.

[Carre Kwong Callaway]

And I feel like it's important to say because I was very adverse to, like, this whole thing of, like, it's going to be boring because that's what people always say. Oh, it's going to be boring. So I want to tell the audience, like, it doesn't have to be boring. It won't, like, spike your adrenaline or your nervous system, and your nervous system won't, like, wig out. Like, I think my relationship is not boring at all. I think it's so fun because it's just, we have the best time together. But, like, I think you can have it all. I think you can have, like, you know, passion and excitement within a relationship, within a container that's safe.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

This is an ad by BetterHelp. In this episode, we're talking about what it's like to recognize the relationship models we were shown as children, how they influence our behaviors, and how we choose romantic partners as adults. Conversations about dating and love can feel incredibly vulnerable. They can bring up feelings of shame, fear, confusion, or comparison, and that's often why we avoid them. But when we're able to talk about our struggles openly, it can relieve some of the pressure we may have been carrying alone. Therapy can help you navigate conversations like these, especially when you're trying to communicate across differences without losing connection. BetterHelp makes it easy to get the support you deserve. Visit betterhelp.com mindifwetalk for 10% off. That's better. H E L p.com mindifwetalk My conversation with Holly and Koray left me thinking about the complex and potentially challenging aspects of selecting a partner and nurturing a relationship. For those of us who witnessed unhealthy dynamics as children, it can take time to recognize those patterns and learn how to break them, and that work is often uncomfortable. How do we move away from a toxic yet familiar relationship cycle towards a healthy, loving relationship? For Holly and Carre, working on themselves has made all the difference. They have learned how to trust the green flags of a secure partner, even though it might feel different from the exciting yet volatile relationships. To help me further discuss the stages of dating and tips for learning to trust healthy relationships, I sat down with David Yadish. David is a licensed therapist with BetterHelp. Today we dive into why our bodies, brains, and nervous systems sometimes choose chaotic dynamics. David also provides us with tools to acknowledge toxic cycles and tips for breaking through them to get to the other side of a loving relationship. We also answered a listener question on this topic. If you want to write into our show, check out BetterHelp's Instagram stories for the latest prompt. You may hear your question in a future episode. Let's dive in.

[Holly Salem]

Hey David, how are ya?

[David Yadish]

I'm doing well. How are you doing?

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Thank you so much for being here today. It is just such a pleasure to see you and to have you here. This episode specifically is about relationships. And one of the things that really came out. There were so many things that came out and it was really a lovely episode was, you know, building that relationship with oneself, self when one goes through so many different types of relationships in their lives. And so the first question I wanted to start us off with is, you know, when we think about one's family of origin, the, the home they grew up in, which is such, such a spectrum of experience for so many people. When we think of that and those experiences and chaos in that really critical developmental time for a person, how do you think that shapes someone understanding of what a healthy relationship looks like?

[David Yadish]

Absolutely. This is, this is a really great question because, you know, we, we tend to associate what we see as love and as relationships as the right way to do things. Right. You know, as children, we learn by observing the environment around us. So if we're seeing parents or relatives in a chaotic household, then chaotic love, chaotic, chaotic relationships feels like the norm. Right? You know, love is unpredictable and connection, you know, it has that emotional highs and lows. And when that feels like the norm, when that feels like what love should be like, that's what we Seek out in relationships.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

We gravitate towards what we know, what's familiar. Which brings me to my next piece, which is that when we as children internalize that intensity of love, like, it's supposed to be intense, it's supposed to be chaotic. Do you feel like that influences our belief or how we choose partners?

[David Yadish]

You know, absolutely. That influences how we choose partners. It's the devil, you know. Right. So if. If that's how you grow up, you know, you're looking for a partner that kind of fulfills that need, that experience, that expectation. You know, the brain really prioritizes predictability over, well, being, over health. And what is predictable, what feels like is the norm, what's expected, sometimes feels safer than the unknown, which may be slow or unexciting.

[Holly Salem]

Yep.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yep. One of the things that Corre said during the episode was that it's boring to be in a healthy relationship. Right. There's like a. I love that. I know. I love it too. And I was like, well, yeah, it's predictable to your point. Right. That's the word here, is it's predictable. It's sometimes does feel dull because especially when you've had those highs of what chaotic, intense love can feel like compared to what is a healthy, stable, quote, dull, boring relationship. It can feel like, you know, it's just. It's such a vast difference. Right. Like, it really is. Why do you think it's so hard to shift that mindset?

[David Yadish]

It's difficult because those patterns are reinforced in relationships. Right. When you're in a relationship with someone and you're engaging these highs and lows, this. This roller coaster of emotions, and that feels like the safe space for you then this boring side or what. What feels boring in a relationship, it feels like it's missing something.

[Holly Salem]

Right.

[David Yadish]

And, you know, a lot of times we're not choosing partners, you know, we're choosing what our nervous systems recognize. If your system is excited in a relationship, sometimes that's interpreted as, this must be what love feels like, or, you know, this excitement in the relationship must be, you know, how I know that they care about me when caring and love and trust can be much simpler, much smaller, and that's a lot harder to recognize. Right. Like, the intense emotions are really in your face versus some of those more subtle things that let you know that your partner cares.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yeah. No, I agree 100%. We miss those subtle cues sometimes in search of that dopamine hit. And that's the word that always comes to mind is like, there's such a rush when we are in a new relationship. And so it goes back to back in my day when I worked in addiction. We're chasing the high. And sometimes relationships can feel like chasing that high. We're still chasing that high, right? So I think that's where people do sometimes confuse that rush, that fix, so to speak, with love, trust, caring, nurturing, all of the things that come with a healthy relationship.

[David Yadish]

Absolutely. You bring up a great point about it kind of being related to addiction because, you know, it can feel like withdrawal when you're not in that experience of love, when you're constantly in this heightened state of emotion. When that's not there, whether you're alone or you're with a different partner, you kind of feel those withdrawal symptoms, right? You're. You're missing out on that dopamine. You're missing out on that adrenaline that comes from those highs and lows. And, you know, your brain kind of wants to seek some of that out again.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I agree. I totally agree with that. You know, and I think that brings me to my next question is like, one of the things that comes up for so many people is like, why do I keep choosing the same person in a different body, Right. And how can we step back and see the pattern and shift it for ourselves? What are some tools or tricks that come to mind for you?

[David Yadish]

You know, the first thing I want to say is that you don't break the cycle by thinking differently. You actually break the cycle by choosing to do differently. Right. It's choosing the behaviors we can recognize day in and day out. You know, toxic patterns or challenges that we're facing. But until we're able to make the steps to change it, you know, those patterns will continue. And, you know, some of the things that I think about are on the very base kind of body awareness. How does something feel in the moment? Right. Like, excitement doesn't necessarily mean safety. So if you're feeling like your emotion, your body is heightened, that might be a sign that maybe you should do something a little bit differently. Don't necessarily act on impulse right away. Give yourself time to think about a situation. Or if you're going out with a partner and you're in this kind of mood instability piece, give yourself time to sit with it and say, does this feel right to me? Should I be doing something different? And there's a skill in DBT called opposite action. So, you know, very basic, the idea behind it is if you're feeling something, your body's going to want to respond the way it knows, right? So if you're feeling really anxious, then maybe you want to hide away and go within, go inside yourself when you recognize that emotion, when something's happening, and you can kind of engage in the opposite action. That can help retrain your brain to stop automatically going into those patterns and those behaviors that you've been in before and can really help to break this cycle.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I think you hit the nail on the head with that, David, is the change in behavior. I know you've probably heard this. Don't tell me, show me. You know, and that's something that I think we can apply to ourselves, is being able to say, I'm not just going to think, I'm going to do different. I'm going to show myself I'm going to do different. What do you think about ways that people can start to really pinpoint or discover where they need to change how they see themselves?

[David Yadish]

This is an excellent question, and I don't think there's a one size fits all answer. But where it starts is giving yourself some time to be alone. If you can connect to who you are as a person and understand your desires and your goals and your values, then you can translate that into what you're looking for in a relationship and determine whether the relationship you're in is kind of meeting those values or not. You know, it's. I. I always encourage people that sit with yourself, get to know yourself. You know, we generally are afraid to be alone. I think that's pretty common because being alone with ourselves is hard. Figuring out what I like, not in relation to someone else, can be really difficult. And so I encourage everyone to kind of practice that and really start that process.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I always say along the same lines of what you just said, I always tell people, date yourself.

[David Yadish]

Yes, I love that you've got to

[Sreela Roy Greene]

date yourself and you have to be stuck with you for the rest of your life. So better get to know yourself a little bit before you let somebody else in or let yourself out. Because you have to have faith in yourself around, like, these are my likes, these are my dislikes. And I think you highlighted one of the most important things that I think people sometimes neglect, which is values. If I don't know what my values are, how am I supposed to know what I'm seeking out on my partner? I need to know who I am. And values shape that. Do you have any thoughts about, like, you know, even when a person's done all that work, let's say, like, they've done all the things we just talked about and they still feel like they're hitting a wall. You know, what would you say to them? As far as those patterns may be repeating over and over, they still find themselves kind of in that same chaos. What would you say to them?

[David Yadish]

Talk to a therapist. I always encourage people, you know, don't wait until things are a crisis to talk to someone about it. Therapists are here and able to talk about, hey, I'm recognizing this pattern. I know it's there. I can see it happening. I can see it playing out time and time again, but I can't seem to stop it. I can't seem to interrupt what's happening. Is it in who I'm choosing? Is it my behavior? Is it my environment that I'm in? Is it all of the above? So being able to talk to a therapist or someone who has these tools that can help you explore that, I think can make major breakthroughs, find ways to interrupt that cycle, whether it's stopping and thinking and taking a moment to engage in an opposite action, or if it's separating yourself from that situation, removing yourself from kind of toxic relationships, which, you know, easier said than done sometimes, right? Anytime you can interrupt that pattern, you're helping to. You're helping to move forward in that progress.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Something that you just said made me think. One of the things that I think comes. Comes up when I'm having these conversations with my clients or others in general, even casual conversations, is this guilt. How dare I make these decisions for myself and do for me. It's almost this guilt around being as they call, or as one would call selfish to take care of themselves, to break, to be the cycle breaker. What are your thoughts about that? Challenging that guilt?

[David Yadish]

Being selfish is totally acceptable and totally appropriate in certain doses. The foundation of health is self care, and this is mental health, physical health, relationship health. If you're doing for you the things that help you feel safe and secure and cared for, then all of those other places can actually progress and move forward. But if you're not, if you don't have that foundation because you're so. You feel so inclined and moved to support others before yourself, it's going to really be a roadblock in your health and your success in anything you do. We can't pour from an empty cup.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

That's how people lose themselves too. Constantly pouring from that empty cup, forgetting to take care of yourself first. And then that fosters what we would call codependency. And that idea of, I can't take care of myself because I don't even know who I am anymore. I'm so busy taking care of all these other people or I'm giving everything into this really not great relationship. But I also don't know what to do with me, so I'm just gonna kind of stay. And I think that's part of that cycle too, is not just the guilt, but then the unhealthy connection one has to their identity being built around everyone else. And I think that's another barrier.

[David Yadish]

Absolutely, I completely agree with you. You know, that's a, a huge barrier for people. If you've spent your whole life giving for others, you may not have any idea who you are. You're so giving love that those are all values to aspire to, of course. But if your whole sense of self is I give to others and that's what makes me good and makes me worthy and makes me valuable as a human, then what about all the other stuff?

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I agree. And to your point of what you said earlier, learning how to modify the behavior in the process, like this is that belief I have about myself and this is that behavior that I engage in. I'm going to change that behavior because I need to challenge that belief and it becomes a new cycle. I want to go back to something that you said about getting to know yourself before getting to be in a new relationship and a partner. One of the homework assignments, if you will, that I will often give people who are just coming out of a relationship or in between relationships, so to speak, is really sitting down and making a list, an actual list of negotiables, non negotiables. What are some more, I guess, hands on strategies or ways that a person can really like on paper, so to speak, or in small actions, get to re date themselves, you know, get to know themselves all over again.

[David Yadish]

This is a really great question because I've struggled personally with this, right. I've had clients who've struggled with this. It's hard to get to know yourself, especially if you feel lost or you feel like you're in this phase of your life that's this huge transition from the old you into a new you. The first thing I'd say is take yourself on a date, take yourself somewhere, maybe a movie, if it, you know, a movie is a very kind of safe space. You know, you're watching something, there's not a whole lot of interaction. But take yourself out to lunch or out to dinner and it can be absolutely horrifying at first, right? Like this idea, I'm gonna go sit somewhere by myself and eat dinner. And that can be scary. But like, when you do that, you're kind of putting yourself in a position to make decisions and engage without the influence of others. And something that small, giving yourself the permission to, to take yourself out on a date and get the things that you want and explore what you want can have huge impacts. And you can, you can kind of extrapolate this to so many points in your life. Right. Like take yourself on a hike, take yourself to a museum.

[Holly Salem]

Yeah.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

And even taking it a step further, like dressing up for that date with yourself.

[David Yadish]

Yes.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Whatever it is, doesn't matter. It's about what makes you feel good about you. You know, one of the other things that came up is, you know, if you don't know yourself, you can't get to know what you need in a partner. You know, what are some ways that we can learn what we do need in a partner?

[David Yadish]

I'm going to go back to something that you said earlier. This list of, you know, non negotiables versus, you know, kind of nice to haves. I encourage a lot of my clients when they're looking to start a new relationship or they've just gotten out of relationship and they're trying to decide what's next for them. If you can sit down and write out those pieces, like, what, what felt right about my last relationship, what felt wrong, and kind of reality test some of those things for yourself. You know, things that feel right in the moment. You know, when you actually write it down and you see it on paper and you have that objective, like hindsight's 2020 feel about it, you can really, you can really see what matters to you and make that list.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Mm. Mm. It made me think of a previous relationship even I had where, you know, I thought at one point in my life, you know, financial stability is really, really like, is important. But it was like, really important. And then I was in a relationship with somebody who offered that, but they were missing in so many other areas of our values being misaligned. I think sometimes we have to use the what didn't work to help inform the what will work, which is hard because it also requires a high degree, I think, of self reflection because that's hard.

[David Yadish]

It's hard to look at ourselves in the mirror 100%.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

It doesn't feel good in that moment. But that's the hard work we have to do to get to know ourselves again so that we can be the partner we want to be, you know, but also have the partner that we feel we deserve. Truly at the core. Do you think we're capable of unlearning toxic attractions and recognizing. I was just talking about flags. Do you think that we can unlearn and start to be more aware of those flags as we move through relationships?

[David Yadish]

Absolutely. I think any behavior, any experience can be unlearned. It just takes that practice and that experience. You know, you may not even know what your red flags are, right? So like, taking that inventory for yourself can really help with that. It's so important to be able to self reflect. It's so important to think about those red flags for you, what's important? Red flags, orange flags, green flags, even. What are the benefits? What are the good things you're looking for in someone?

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I love that you mentioned green flags because sometimes those get really overlooked. Especially I think when a person has been so used to being in red, orange, yellow flag situations, then suddenly to have that green flag flag, and I think the other piece to that brings up a sense of valuing oneself. I don't deserve the green flags.

[David Yadish]

Yes.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

You know, what are some ways that people could maybe challenge that type of thinking of that I am undeserving.

[David Yadish]

If you feel like you're undeserving of something, then why would anyone else be deserving of it? Right? There's that golden rule, right? Treat others the way you want to be treated. If it's something that you do for others because it's kind, it's nice, it's generous, why shouldn't others do that for you as well? Green flags are gonna look different for everybody, right? So for some, holding the door open may be a green flag or pulling your chair out for dinner. For others, it may be starting conversations at dinner, right? Somebody who's very talkative and engaging and wants to share. But what I will say about green flags is actions speak louder than words. If you observe green flags and take inventory of like, these are the things that make me feel good. These are the things that make me feel loved and supported and happy. And remind yourself that you are deserving of those things. Like your relationships will go so far. It's not easy to know what you like or what feels good or what you deserve. But if you take the time to think about it and you take the time to give yourself the opportunity to do the things you like, to pamper yourself, to go out and get a haircut or a manicure or take yourself to dinner, like we were saying, you give yourself the opportunity to learn those things and find out for you what's important, what makes you feel valued, what

[Sreela Roy Greene]

makes you feel good, love It. I absolutely love it. So here's the next question to that. How do you learn to trust it?

[David Yadish]

I like to be very upfront with my clients about trust. Trust is not something that can happen overnight. It's not something that's easy to build. Right. And so the first step of trust is safety. So if you feel safe in a conversation, in a relationship, in a situation, that's when you can start building trust.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Right?

[David Yadish]

So it's hard to trust someone when you're really activated. When you're in a place where you're feeling overwhelmed, you're feeling anxious, it's gonna be natural to kind of not want to trust, to be more fearful. Right. So in those cases, I encourage my clients. If you find that going out to dinner brings up a lot of anxiety, Right. It, like, elevates your. Your nervous system and you can't focus as much. Try something a little. Little more private.

[Holly Salem]

Right?

[David Yadish]

Going to a cafe, something with a little bit less commotion going on. Or even the movies. Right. And you can go to the movies a little bit early so that you can kind of talk and chat if you want to get to know each other a little bit, you know, chat over the previews, what's going on. But giving yourself that. That sense of safety where you're not feeling so overwhelmed or emotionally drained, that's how you can start building trust in someone.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yep.

[David Yadish]

The other piece goes back to this idea of actions can speak louder than words. When you can see someone engaging in the behaviors that you value, that you find important and that support and value you, that's a way to build trust. Just hearing someone say, I love you, I care about you. But not engaging those actions isn't going to develop trust. That's where we start to question, can I trust this? Is this real? Is this what's happening? And even if you're questioning yourself, that could be a sign that, like, either something's wrong or you're not. You're not in a space right now where you feel safe enough to trust or to engage.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yeah, I think those are all great points, David. One thing that you said struck a chord for me, which is learning to trust yourself and your instincts. Like, if your gut's telling you something's off, believe that. Don't gaslight yourself.

[David Yadish]

Yes.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

If something is telling you something's wrong, if there's a part. If there's that little voice in your head or that gut feeling saying something's not right, I don't have a good feeling about this. You have to listen to that because that's usually right. How do we learn the difference between boredom and peace in a relationship? Especially after coming out of more chaotic type relationships?

[David Yadish]

Absolutely. You know, I mentioned earlier kind of this roller coaster relationships, right. If you're in a relationship that feels like rollercoaster, these really high highs and really low lows, if you're in another relationship that doesn't have that, that's healthier, it may feel boring. Right. It may feel like, what am I doing here? So when I think of the difference between boredom and peace, I think of boredom as like disengagement. Right. It's like feeling like you can engage or not being engaged in something. And that could be a sign. Right. Versus peace, which is, you know, it. Peace is more of that emotional safety. Right.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I love that.

[David Yadish]

So you're going to feel peace in a relationship. Maybe you're not going out as often, or you're just sitting at home on the couch, but you feel settled, right. You feel safe. You have that psychological safety. You can talk about things. You can bring it up if you feel like you can talk about, hey, you know, I want to go out and do something, or, hey, I want to talk about this thing that happened, right. That's peace and that's safety. Boredom is when you don't really have the desire to kind of talk about things or go out and do things together. And it just doesn't. It doesn't excite you. And I think we oftentimes over conflate excitement to love. Right. Like, I'm attracted to someone because they excite me, because I'm interested. And every time we go out, I feel, like, energized. And, you know, we have a great time together. And I think that's super important. And that's really great in relationships, but you also have to have that other side. What is it like when we're just sitting on the couch next to each other? What is it like when we're just holding hands and that's where you can determine whether it's peace or boredom?

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I think there's such a thrill in being able to just simply hold your partner's hand and feel comfortable and safe and just content versus not knowing what's going to happen next? You know, it's this sense of contentment, of we could go and do something exciting if we felt like it. We can find other ways to bring ourselves joy and excitement without having chaos that could take us into really unhealthy, darker places, you know, And I think that it's really important to know and something else you said about the boredom piece is that. That I'm not excited to tell my partner or I don't feel safe to tell my partner. I think the other piece to that is when a couple just simply stop engaging, that can be a. Yeah. Not great sign to. Right. You know, or the highs and the lows and stuff. So I always tell people that, especially when they're struggling in the relationship is like, if you're just not talking to each other, not engaging with each other, you're living parallel lives without that interaction. That's usually not a great sign. You could be safe, but it's also something lacking. Right. It's really hard to find that balance. And to your point, it's so individualized, it's objective to the individual. So, you know, definitely that.

[David Yadish]

What that makes me think of is peace feels quiet, not empty.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yes. I love that.

[David Yadish]

And I think that's really important to distinguish because you can sit in the quiet, you can experience the quiet and find joy and feel connection, but if it feels empty when it's quiet, if it feels like there's something lacking, something missing, and you don't have that connection, I think that's a difference between peace and boredom.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

I love that. You should make that into a bumper sticker. I love that. I do want to take one listener question with the time that we have, when I saw kind of hit me a little bit a great question, yet at the same time really sad, is that if no one ever loves me enough to stay or support me, am I genuinely the problem?

[David Yadish]

Yeah. I have to take a moment to just sit with that. Mm. Because it's so heavy and I hear it so much.

[Holly Salem]

Right.

[David Yadish]

People when they're. When they feel lonely, they feel like they're the problem when relationships didn't work out. And really, it's. It's not that you're. You're the problem. Right. But there may be patterns worth understanding about relationships and what's happening and what you're looking for in relationships that can help break that pattern. Right. It's not about you being too much. It's not about you not giving enough. It's about you're not used to people who. Who can give you what you need and what you deserve. Right. And sometimes we internalize that as, I'm the problem, I'm the mistake. I'm the common factor. But, you know, if we jump back into what we were talking about when we first started this conversation. Right. If you grow up in a chaotic household or even if you grow up in a, in, you know, just a different than the typical expectation household. Right. You may learn to love differently, you may learn to connect with people differently. And if you continue the pattern that's not working for you over and over and over again, how can you ever expect that to change? Right.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

When I saw that, that, you know, there's so many people out there that feel this way, you know, and to your point, really simplifying it, like we feel sometimes like a square peg, round hole kind of a sensation. And that's really what it is. It's not that you're the problem. You just haven't found your fit with the right tribe or with the right person. So. And because of all of those years and conditioning of I have to fit that mold, you realize I was never meant to fit that mold. So maybe I'm not the problem.

[David Yadish]

It's not your mold.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

It's not the right mold. Exactly. That's not the mold for you. Your mold exists somewhere else. Stop trying to fit that one. Right. And I think that's a really empowering note to wrap things up on. And again, David, thank you so much. I love our conversations, I always do.

[David Yadish]

I really appreciate it. Such an important and heavy hitting topic. So I'm really glad that I got to talk to you about it today.

[Sreela Roy Greene]

Yep, same here. Thanks, David. I want to give a big thank you to Better Help for their passion for this project and for giving us a platform to champion the well being in all of us. Mind if we Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with Better Help and hosted by me, Sri Lay Greene. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review in Spotify or Apple podcasts and share the episode with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life and remember your happiness matters. Mind if we Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.