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- [00:00]
Chris Puntzelon
It's this push and pull of understanding and having empathy for my grandmother, knowing she didn't ask to be taken care of in that way, but then also being selfish and saying, what about me? What about my life? I am in my early 20s having this responsibility on my plate. What about me? So it's feeling both and not really knowing how to handle both.
- [00:26]
Sarela Roy Greene
Hey, can I talk to you about something? I wish you knew. I wish you knew how lonely menopause felt. I wish you knew why it's so
- [00:38]
Chris Puntzelon
hard for men to share their feelings.
- [00:40]
Hannah Heitz
I wish you knew what it was like growing up in a low income family. I wish you knew how hard it
- [00:44]
Sarela Roy Greene
was not having a college degree. I wish you knew what it's like to be me. Welcome back to Mind if we Talk where you get to be a fly on the wall for mini therapy sessions and learn some mental health tips in the process. Hi, I'm Sarela Roy Greene, a licensed mental health Counselor with over 19 years of experience and your host for season two. This season we're bringing people together who see the world a little bit differently and who want to understand one another better. Every episode, I sit down with two people who've agreed to have a real vulnerable conversation. Together we explore the thorny emotions and topics they may have turned away from in the past. After each mini therapy session, I'll sit down with an expert to break down what we heard and how you might apply it to your own life. Today's topic is something deeply personal, widely experienced and rarely discussed. We're talking about caregiving. Stepping into the role of caregiver can be an act of profound love, but it can also come with exhaustion, isolation, resentment and questions no one prepares you for. In this episode, I sit down with Chris Puntzelon and his cousin, Merce Esquera. Together we explore their very different roles in caring for their grandmother, Anicia Manipone, who lived with dementia, severe arthritis and osteoporosis before passing away at the age of 97 back in 2024. For eight years, Chris was his grandmother's full time caregiver, carrying the daily physical and emotional weight of her care throughout that time. He shared his journey online, building a remarkable Instagram following by offering an unfiltered look into his day to day life. By contrast, Merce, by his own admission, remained largely on the sidelines for much of that period. Together, the cousins reflect on their differing experiences and explore the sacrifices of caregiving, including unspoken family expectations and the resentment and regret that can arise. Plus, they discuss what this experience Ultimately taught them about responsibility, family and love. Let's get into it. Hey, Chris. Hey, Marz, how are you?
- [02:57]
Chris Puntzelon
Hi.
- [02:57]
Merce Esquera
How you doing?
- [02:58]
Sarela Roy Greene
So I think my, my first question to you today is, before your grandmother became somebody that you cared for, who was your grandmother to you?
- [03:10]
Merce Esquera
You know, she, she was like any other grandma. Like I remember, she'd always have like candy in her purse. She was that type of grandma that was always caring for us. She would take care of me, probably us too, like when our parents would go to work. And back in her day she was a teacher, so she always loved to just help me with my homework and things like that. So she was just always around.
- [03:36]
Sarela Roy Greene
She was such a presence in your lives, a consistent presence. And it's so hard when that shifts for us where the person who's consistently the caretaker for us suddenly is the one that needs care.
- [03:51]
Hannah Heitz
Right.
- [03:52]
Sarela Roy Greene
And so I guess that's my, my next point of question, which is, you know, for you, Chris, you became your grandmother's full time caretaker at a, at a relatively young age and you know, can you take us back to that moment in time where that became your reality and what that felt like for you?
- [04:09]
Chris Puntzelon
Yeah. When. So my grandmother, I tell this story often, but she woke up one day and was no longer able to get out of bed. It was like, like a light switch went off and she could no longer move or was as mobile as she once was. And my parents and I had to make a decision whether we were going to hire a full time caregiver or find a facility for my grandmother to stay in. And I remember coming to this reality even before that moment because I, I just always remembered my grandmother having difficulty with her mobility. So I just, in the back of my mind, I knew subconsciously that my grandmother was going to need more help as she aged. So I think I embraced this reality sooner than the, the decision than we made the decision that I was going to become her full time caregiver. But I do remember feeling a heavy sense of responsibility, knowing that I was going to have to be around probably until she passed away. And if it was a very heavy
- [05:16]
Sarela Roy Greene
decision, no, I don't think that's easy for anyone. Regardless of how prepared you might feel on like a deeper level, I think that it's still something that you have to come to terms to and wrap your brain around. So I can't imagine that that was easy on any level. And I don't think it ever is. You know, just, you know, just to kind of give a sense to our listeners, you Know what would a typical day kind of consist of for you?
- [05:40]
Chris Puntzelon
Yeah, so every day we'd wake up at 6, 6:30 and I would go straight to my grandmother's room, help her get out of bed, help her use the restroom. We would do a towel bath and I would then clean her up and get her situated, put her diapers on and get her transferred to the wheelchair and then we'd have breakfast and we would hang out until about 9, 9:30. And after her digesting and hanging out with the rest of the family, I'd help her go back into her bed and we would Repeat that at 12pm and then again at 5pm and that was our consistent routine for the next eight years.
- [06:19]
Sarela Roy Greene
Wow. It takes a really amazing human being to do all of that every single day for so long for sure. So really kudos to you for that. You know, Mers, as someone who is close to Chris and who is also close to their grandmother and saw this incredible presence in their life, how does it feel for you to be listening to Chris, you know, talking about this now and what were your thoughts back then as you were watching this or experiencing this alongside Chris?
- [06:51]
Merce Esquera
So to be honest, I was actually oblivious to this whole beginning because I wasn't really at that time, I wasn't around the family as much as. Yeah. So I had no idea that he was taking care of grandma like that or even that this was a situation going on with the family until he was already in the thick of it. You know, so I just remember grandma declining and then next thing you know, when I moved back into my parents house like she's in a wheelchair and you know, Chris is the full time caretaker at the time or caregiver. But even then it's like it just, it just felt like this was normal in our family to take care of our elders. You know, so shouts to him because he's the one that really, you know, he, he, he took on the, the task to do what he did for grandma. No one else did. We helped like people helped, but he was the, he was the main one.
- [07:52]
Sarela Roy Greene
Do you feel like though, you know, culture did play a role in, in these decisions around being a caregiver for you and how your family adapted and
- [08:01]
Chris Puntzelon
went into all of this 100%. I, I mean culture is the reason. It is my makeup, it is what makes me who I am and the way that I view the world. And because of the way, the example that I saw in my parents and how they cared for, for their elders and their parents, it was natural for me to step up. And I didn't even use the word caretaker or caregiver at the time that my grandmother needed help. It was, grandma needs help. We're gonna step up and do this. And it's such an important piece of my story, of our story, because that's all we know. And honestly, when I posted that first video and I saw people commenting and sending me messages saying, I really wish I was close to my grandmother or I really wish that I would have seen your videos beforehand because I would have taken care of my grandmother because I had the chance to and I didn't.
- [08:57]
Merce Esquera
Our grandparents were always around, like they, they would live with, with my parents, right? Like, I don't know any grandparents, even like our cousins, grandparents that went to like a facility. Like it was always taken care of at the house. Like you're around family the whole, the whole way through. And that's why I felt like it was so normal when grandma started needing care. And it was like we got family members handling it. You know, it wasn't until like just realizing when he started posting there'd be. Parents are like, you know, I wish my kids will do this for me when I get older, you know, or our relationship isn't as strong anymore because they moved out. They have their own families.
- [09:44]
Sarela Roy Greene
We don't realize sometimes how much of an impact our culture plays on us until we're living it, it and that moment comes and we go, well, yeah, of course that makes sense. Why wouldn't I. I wouldn't do any different, you know, So I think that's a, a great thing to bring up. And I think it's really important for people who are listening to keep that in mind. Like, there is no right or wrong to it. It's about what's right for you when it comes to your family and taking care of them and, and what makes the most sense. So I love that you shared that. So thank you. We don't get, like, it's not an explicit conversation. It's not a, like this is this or this is that. It happens. It just kind of ends up becoming this very organic experience for the person who ends up being the caregiver. You know, do you think that it was a very explicit conversation? Do you feel like it was just something that evolved and ended up happening? You know, what was that experience like for, for both of you?
- [10:35]
Chris Puntzelon
My immediate family, me and my parents had a very intentional conversation about what our life was going to look like now that grandma needed more around the clock care. As far as Having that conversation with other family members, we weren't. That was more of a gradual, hey, you know, maybe a year or two years in, we're like, we kind of need some help on Saturdays and Sundays. If you could step up and help out with, with either taking grandma in for the weekend or coming in and, and bringing something that we would need. And maybe this is just a human thing. In general, we try and take on all the responsibility on ourselves because we don't want to burden other people. Specifically in this case, we don't want to burden other family members with this responsibility that almost feels like it's ours to carry and not anybody else's.
- [11:23]
Sarela Roy Greene
I think you just hit the nail on the head with what it really means sometimes for people to be the primary caregiver is that I don't want to burden others. And so many people carry that as primary caretakers and caregivers within their families. That's. And Lee, to your point, it's a creep up effect. It's like suddenly out of nowhere, it's like, gosh, I didn't realize I was carrying this for so long or that I hadn't asked for help sooner. I didn't even realize I could. Was that the experience for you?
- [11:56]
Chris Puntzelon
It's funny because I reflect on this a lot. I, I had so much resentment build up during my caregiving journey. During the eight years, there was so much resentment built up for my grandmother and for other family members. But I think what makes that ironic is that during the, the time of me being a full time caregiver, I never sought help from other family members. I never said, merz, can you come and help me? Specifically, I, there were instances where I would call him every every once in a while to say, hey, can you come and help me for an hour? But for the majority of the time, I never reached out for help. And there was also a part of it that was me thinking that nobody else could do what I did at the level that I did. Which it's this weird push and pull internally for me. It's like you're, you resent family members, family members for not coming in to step in and help. But then you also feel like nobody can do it, though, at the level that you're doing. So it's almost like you want to be helped, but you don't want to be helped. But how are you going to be helped if you're not asking for help? I'm curious to hear what Merz thinks about that.
- [12:56]
Merce Esquera
Yeah, I knew it was like getting serious When I started to see my mom take care of grandma and help her get up, feed her, and when I saw that, that's when I knew, like, okay, this is getting kind of serious. But even then, because I saw that it looked like it was taken care of, I didn't really tap in to help as much as I probably should have. I was like the guy that, hey, I got my. My own life to, you know, I got to do this. I got these responsibilities to handle. At the time I was coaching hoops, so I was not really at home a lot. I remember sometimes where he called me, and I would say, yes, I can come over. And I would say, no, I can't make it. You know, like, it. It was. It. It wasn't one of those things. I would just jump up and go, you know? So, yeah, it's. It's. It was a really different experience. But seeing him do it, like, I just felt like everything was in good hands.
- [13:57]
Sarela Roy Greene
As you're listening to Chris kind of talk about this journey, what feelings does that elicit for you as you're. And I'm sure this is not the first time you've had these conversations, but as you're listening to it, as you're listening to Chris, reflect on those experiences, the resentment, those feelings of isolation, et cetera. How. What are your feelings now, and how does that, you know, make you view Chris differently, maybe, or what are your thoughts?
- [14:22]
Merce Esquera
Well, it's, you know, one of the things. And it's crazy because a lot of this stuff is a lot of these feelings I got towards the end of my grandmother's life. And it's easier to say now that she's. She's not here, but, like, I could have did a lot more, you know, And I think that's one of the. For me, was, like, the hardest thing to, like, swallow was I didn't do more than I could have. You know, Like, I. I did the bare minimum that you could help somebody, even for me, because I'm not at his house when he's doing what he does for grandma every day. I didn't see a lot of that stuff until, like, he started posting it online just like everyone else saw it. So when I really started seeing everything that was going on, that kind of, like, lit a fire in me. Like, man, I could do a lot more, you know? And towards the end of my grandmother's life, I try to help my mom a lot more. But even then, it was still, like, it just didn't feel like something that was, you know, a Purpose of mine, like, it didn't seem like that, but I could have done a lot more, and I think I should have and know if anyone's listening to this. Like, if you have any of those feelings, you should, like, listen to it and, and, and do more because it's not. It's not easy watching what he did. And I. I just feel like, you know, and I say it all the time, but when, when grandma passed, when he called to tell me, the first thing I told him was, you're the goat. It's the greatest of all time.
- [15:56]
Sarela Roy Greene
You know, I'm hearing so much, so much admiration coming from you, Mers, like, just towards Chris and this, like, appreciation and this, like, profound respect. And I think that that's really incredible. I love seeing that, you know, and I think that's part of it is that there's. I can definitely sense and see that. That connection and that love that the two of you have with each other in your relationship, you know, and it makes me think of the fact that, you know, people often see caregiving as an act of love, but they don't always know the cost. Right? There's like a. There's such a cost to that type of love because it is, It's. It's all consuming to a degree. Right? So it's like an emotional. It's physical, it's logistical, it's financial, all of it. You know, what are some of the pieces of caretaking that you think are the hardest that people don't always recognize or realize or take for granted?
- [16:56]
Chris Puntzelon
Maybe I think the emotional part of caregiving was the hardest aspect of caregiving that I wrestled with. It's. It's. I love my grandmother so much, and I want her to be clean, safe, and comfortable at all times. And sometimes that. That comes at the cost of my own mental well being. I can't live the life that I envisioned living because I have to live a different life and I have to be around all the time. And I can't go hang out with Mers and the rest of my cousins. I can't go take these opportunities that are calling me. I can't build the relationships. I can't have an intimate relationship with somebody right now because I just don't have the mental capacity to. To do that. And a lot of the. A lot of the emotional weight came from blaming my grandmother for putting, quote, unquote, putting me in this position. That wasn't the case at all. My grandmother never asked to be taken care of in that way. If, I mean with the way that we knew my grandmother, she would be independent until, until she died. She. And I think that most people would prefer to be independent and I don't think anybody would prefer to be taken care of the way that my grandmother was taken care of. And it's this, I, I mention it a lot. It's this push and pull of understanding and having empathy for my grandmother, knowing she didn't ask to be taken care of in that way, but then also being selfish and saying, what about me? What about my life? I am in my early 20s, having this responsibility on my plate. What about me? So it's feeling both and, and not really knowing how to handle both.
- [18:36]
Sarela Roy Greene
And I think that's, I think you just did describe the hardest part of it is that making sure you're still true to yourself while living a reality that's true for others so that their needs get met. Right. And that's really hard. And I don't think people realize that when they are observing a caretaker or, or living that life of a caregiver that it's almost like you're putting your, you on pause or on hold and it feels like there's such a disconnect there. Right?
- [19:04]
Chris Puntzelon
Yeah. And it's not something that I had clarity on until many, many years later in my caregiving journey. And I think the videos that I was able to create with my grandmother actually helped me out so much because I was able to hear the perspective of many other caregivers, the millions of caregivers that are out there. Because before the first video that I ever posted online, I felt like I was the only person on planet Earth that was doing what I was doing, which is so far from a true, from the truth. But when I started hearing all of these different perspectives of, yeah, I take care of my mother or I take care of my father in law or whoever it is that they're caring for, I started to realize that, no, first of all, I'm not alone. And second of all, there are so many opportunities within caregiving. The opportunity of spending time with my grandmother, the opportunity of learning this invaluable skill of having to make do with what is in front of you. Those, I think those two are two opportunities that I just, I was blind to in like the six or seven years that I was in it. And it wasn't until like the last couple years that I was like, wait, there's actually so much opportunity within caregiving that I was just taking for granted because I was just thinking so much about myself and being so selfish in this process
- [20:19]
Sarela Roy Greene
now, I think you. You really touched on some really important pieces there. You know, that told. That feeling of being almost like, left behind, not realizing like, you're. You feel so isolated. You know, that's what resonated with me as you were speaking is what a feeling of isolation and how dark it must have felt at times for you to be in that space and then being able to kind of say, oh, I see a little bit of light over here. Wait, let me go towards it. And you did. And then you saw nothing but, oh, wow, this is an amazing opportunity for me to grow and learn and to help others. And it sounds like you almost found your purpose through that.
- [20:53]
Chris Puntzelon
It's funny because we talk about finding our purpose a lot. Like, I hear that. I hear that phrase a lot. And when I, Even when I hear that, I'm like, well, what does that really mean? Like, do you just wake up one day and like, and you, you find purpose? Like, it's like, it's a thing that you can pick up. But I vividly remember when we came back from this vacation and I came to. I went to go help my grandmother with the. The normal routine that I described to you earlier. I was helping her out 6:30 in the morning, I swiveled her out of bed. And the moment that I swiveled her out of bed, I was like, wow, this is so effortless for me to just be able to step back into role, like nothing happened. And it was at that moment that, like, I found my purpose, which sounds, it makes me laugh because again, it doesn't sound like a real thing that people just find one day. But that was truly the moment that I was like, wow, this is. This feels very meaningful to me that I. I am taking on this responsibility and helping out my grandmother live out the most comfortable, an amazing last chapter that I could help her live.
- [22:01]
Sarela Roy Greene
It's really a beautiful way of looking at it. And, and I love that you shared that memory. So thank you for that. As you're reflecting on these years that you spent caring for your grandmother, Lessons, perspectives, you know what resonates with you the most as you think back on that time?
- [22:20]
Chris Puntzelon
My grandmother's gratitude is a lesson that she taught me without ever teaching me. It was in the way that she lived her life. She was the most grateful person that I ever knew. She lost all of her mobility, wasn't able to do things for herself, couldn't shower herself, couldn't feed herself, couldn't do anything for herself anymore. And yet she still Found time to be grateful. She'd be thankful that she's still in her home. She'd be thankful that she has water to like everything that every opportunity she had to say thank you, she would take it. And it's something that I try so hard to practice now because
- [23:05]
Merce Esquera
if you,
- [23:06]
Chris Puntzelon
I, I found that if I don't take the time to practice gratitude, that is when my life becomes harder because then I start to think about what is it that I don't have, what is it that I lack, what is it that I'm currently striving for that I don't currently have that I want right now? And it makes me lose sight of what's actually in front of me. And I think my grandmother, she was such a. She had that she had her gratitude on lock. And it's something that I. I'm striving for every single day.
- [23:38]
Sarela Roy Greene
What about for you, Merce?
- [23:39]
Merce Esquera
Even when her, you know, memory got bad, she never forgot to pray. You know, one of the, One of the routines was to give her her rosary after, you know, she took a bath, she ate, and, you know, put her in. Into her bed, and she would like, literally pray for hours. And that's one thing that I'll never forget about Grandma is like her little prayer books, all her rosaries. Like, man, it's crazy. Like, she was a praying woman. Man.
- [24:07]
Sarela Roy Greene
It's funny, the intersection between having faith and gratitude, it's like right there in that perfect little balance as you were both describing your experiences and takeaways. And it's. There's such a beauty in that. And just this connection that you will carry with you for the rest of your life, you know, that the things that you learned, the lessons learned from those experiences and that engagement, and I loved hearing about that. You know, what are some words of wisdom that you can share with somebody who might be struggling with caregiving right now or feeling very alone in that process?
- [24:38]
Chris Puntzelon
One unlock for me recently has been the moments that caregiving was the most difficult for me was when I would think about myself and what caregiving was taking from me. And caregiving was easier when I would think less about myself and more about what am I bringing to the table, what am I giving to my grandmother that she couldn't give herself? And I found in those moments, although it didn't remove the responsibility completely, it actually didn't remove any responsibility. I still had to wake up and do the things that I had to do. But when I would think about my grandmother and the fact that she didn't ask for this and the fact that I am providing the best last chapter that she could possibly live because of the sacrifices that I'm making, because of the actions that I'm doing every single day. That is when I found that caregiving was the most. Was the easiest, and it was the most meaningful and the most purposeful is when I wasn't thinking about myself and I was only thinking about the service that I was providing to my grandmother. And I would love for every caregiver to try and lean on that as much as possible. I know that caregiving is really difficult. It's taking up your day. It's making you live a life that is not preferable to you. But if you could just try and lean into the fact that you are providing a service to your loved one or somebody that maybe isn't your loved one, if you could just lean into that, it makes your pockets of your day, specifically in caregiving, just a little bit easier.
- [26:06]
Merce Esquera
The best advice that I can give is if you can and you should ask for help. Don't. Don't be too shy about it, or don't feel like you're going to burden other people. Ask for help. And even if it's just like, for like an hour or just to help someone, you know, get someone from one place to another or go pick up prescriptions for you, like, it'll help you out in the long run when you're able to release some of that to someone else so you can kind of get a breather.
- [26:42]
Sarela Roy Greene
I really appreciate you sharing that perspective because it is such a thing that caregivers struggle with. Absolutely. You know, eventually all of us are going to get to a point where we're going to have to care for somebody that we care about. You know, having gone through that and this is somebody you both cared very deeply about, and then having to ultimately come to that decision and watching them go through that, that change in their life and your role, changing their role, changing. What have you learned about love in that process?
- [27:11]
Chris Puntzelon
I. I have found and realized that love is not. It is. It should not be dependent on how you feel. And love is an action, and love is what you do for somebody, whether it's reciprocated or not. I love this quote by C S Lewis. It's love is never wasted because love was never based on reciprocity. And I think about this quote all the time because if it was based on reciprocity, then I would have stopped day one from caregiving because my grandmother wasn't able to. To technically do anything for me, but it was never based on that. It was based on I love my grandmother and I'm going to do this whether she can do something for me or not. And that's something that I will hold dear, hopefully, until until I pass.
- [28:01]
Sarela Roy Greene
Thank you both very much for sharing those amazing insights and answering all these questions and for being here today. So I really appreciate you both for this. That thank you.
- [28:10]
Chris Puntzelon
Thank you. We appreciate the time. Hopefully we could do this again. This has been an amazing experience.
- [28:19]
Sarela Roy Greene
This is an ad by Better Help. In this episode we're discussing caregiving, what it means to show up for someone you love, and the emotional complexity that can come with that role. As you heard from Chris and Merce, caregiving can bring connection and purpose, but it's an incredibly tough act of love, love and service that no one is prepared for or taught to navigate and can lead to exhaustion, feelings of isolation, and even resentment. Working with a therapist is a great way to sort through the mixed emotions, the tough moments, and to help you continue showing up for yourself and the people you love. When you're caregiving, you're giving so much support and you deserve it right back. BetterHelp makes it easy. Visit betterhelp.com mindifwetalk for 10% off, that's betterhelp.com mindifwetoalk Chris and Merce speak openly about something that often goes unspoken in families. The weight of caregiving, the expectations we carry, and the emotions that can live side by side. Love, resentment, pride, and regret. But things weren't always so out in the open. A lot of their feelings about the loneliness last chapter of their grandmother's life, including Chris's resentment and Mers regret, lived beneath the surface for years. To help me break down their conversation, I sat down with Hannah Heitz, a licensed therapist with Better Help. We talked about the emotional push and pull that caregivers experience, why it can be so challenging to ask for help, and how family roles and cultural expectations can often shape who steps in and who steps back. We also answered a couple of listener questions on this topic. Remember, if you want to write into our show, check out BetterHelp's Instagram stories for the latest prompt. You may hear your question in a future episode. All right, let's get to talking. Hannah, thank you so much for being here today. It's such a pleasure to have you join me.
- [30:23]
Hannah Heitz
Thank you for having me on, Sherela. It's great to be here.
- [30:27]
Sarela Roy Greene
This is definitely one of those episodes that I felt very touched by. I found it to be very incredible to hear about the journey of a individual and their experiences with being a caregiver. You know, Chris described that this felt like a push and a pull, you know, wanting to get help, but also feeling like no one else could do it. Right. You know, well, no one can do it the way I can do it. Right. You know, from a psychological perspective or mental health perspective. Right. Where do you think that tension comes from, that push and pull?
- [30:58]
Hannah Heitz
You know, I think in situations of caregiving, especially when it's something that we've been maybe launched into a bit unexpectedly, this desire to seek some certainty, some control, can be really compelling. Right. We want to feel like we have some control over a situation that's so uncertain and so challenging. This sense of needing to do it just right as one way where we can feel a bit more in control of a situation. We can say, well, if I'm doing it, I know how it's being done. I know it's being done good enough. And the hidden cost of that is our own well being often. And then leading to burnout. Right. The more we feel like no one else can do it, the more we do it, the more exhausted we become, more isolated, more resentful, perhaps. Right. And that's just one trajectory. It can look different for everyone. But I do think that's a really common reason for maybe feeling a bit trapped in that cycle.
- [31:54]
Sarela Roy Greene
How do you think feelings like guilt and resentment can coexist in a caretaker or caregiver?
- [32:03]
Hannah Heitz
I think in a lot of ways, just to normalize. How can they not love that? Yes.
- [32:09]
Sarela Roy Greene
Thank you.
- [32:10]
Hannah Heitz
Right. Just to validate that those are such common emotions. And I think often what causes us so much pain when we're in a role of caregiving, or maybe another position is kind of doubling down and saying, I feel guilt and resentment, and then I'm judging myself for feeling guilt and resentment.
- [32:28]
Sarela Roy Greene
You know? What do you think happens? I like what you said. You said about validating it. How can it not? Right. How could they not exist? How could they not coexist? What do you think happens when we don't acknowledge or validate those feelings? I think that's the tough question.
- [32:45]
Hannah Heitz
Yeah. I don't know how you think about emotions, Sheila, but I think of them as almost like a pressure cooker or an instant pot. If we're not slowly releasing the valve and letting some steam out, the thing's gonna explode.
- [32:58]
Sarela Roy Greene
Yep, yep. I have used that analogy many times.
- [33:01]
Hannah Heitz
Yes. Yes. I think almost all of us are wired that way. So if we're not acknowledging or talking about those feelings, they're going to bubble up and pop up in ways that are far less helpful for us and maybe negatively impact us or the people we love and care about. Right. In different ways. So thinking about how do we release that valve? And for some people, maybe it's just having the opportunity to talk with someone who gets it and is willing to listen, or maybe someone who doesn't get it but is still willing to listen and show up, or getting a break of some kind, or having a family member step in. And maybe they can't do the caregiving as well as you can, but maybe they can bring over a meal. Right? Small acts can make a big difference in being able to acknowledge how we're feeling and accept help. Right. Which can be, I think, very challenging
- [33:57]
Sarela Roy Greene
when caregivers ask for help or struggle to ask for help or are resistant to asking for help because, you know, it could be both or one or the other. You know, what are some ways of breaking that cycle to say, please help.
- [34:11]
Hannah Heitz
First of all, how does one ask for help? If there are certain things we know that we need. But I think equally important is how do we accept help? And I think accepting help for a lot of us can be really challenging. So it might be that many people are offering, but we feel overwhelmed or that we feel guilty for accepting help. We feel like maybe we don't need it. Because often to be asked for what you need, if we're overwhelmed and stressed, our ability to think and identify what we need is pretty limited. It's hard to say, you know, I need someone to do X, Y and Z. So if someone just shows up with a food delivery gift card or a meal, or to stop in and give you an hour to go for a walk, right? All of those things make a difference.
- [35:04]
Sarela Roy Greene
To ask for help can sometimes feel like the most. It's like the hardest part of the mountain to climb. You know, it's almost like caregiving is easier than actually asking for help for some people. Or to your point, I love that you said this. Accepting the help. When Chris was talking about specifically the sense of, like, my life was on pause, I was so focused on that, and he was focused on for almost a decade. Really? How can prolonged caregiving, like lengthy periods of caregiving, impact a person's sense of self and their identity, especially at a young age?
- [35:37]
Hannah Heitz
I think some of that is figuring out what does it mean to keep living life. And I like to think of our identities as living in different buckets.
- [35:47]
Sarela Roy Greene
Right.
- [35:47]
Hannah Heitz
When we Put all of ourself into one bucket of being a caregiver instead of being a friend, being a partner, being a cat, parent or whatever it might be. Right. We put all ourselves into one bucket. It's risky. Right. We're sacrificing the complexity of who we can be and how we show up in the world and how we can give ourselves value. So thinking about if all we are is caregiver, that's pretty shaky ground to stand on. I know that's a bit kind of metaphorical, but really thinking about if you pour yourself into one thing, you're really giving up a lot. So figuring out what does it look like? And of course it's easy for me to say that metaphorically, but literally, what does that look like when you are a full time caregiver?
- [36:39]
Sarela Roy Greene
Do you think that a sense of purpose could be cultivated out of being a caregiver?
- [36:44]
Hannah Heitz
For some people, I absolutely think so. I think our ability to make meaning out of hard experiences is one of the coolest things about being human. Right. And in the context of caregiving, such a powerful tool. Right. To be able to make meaning out of something that's arguably really challenging. And sense of purpose. Right. I think is something we often feel like we're searching for. And if we're able to find purpose. Right. And showing up in this very relational way with someone we care about. Absolutely. I think it becomes hard when it's your sole purpose.
- [37:27]
Sarela Roy Greene
Great point. I love that caveat. I love that you threw that in there, Hannah. Very good point. Love it. What are some strategies, like actionable, tangible strategies that you could suggest to caretakers around how they take care of themselves?
- [37:42]
Hannah Heitz
I think first, like we talked about earlier today, being able to figure out what it is that you need to take care of yourself. And I'd say everyone's version of that looks different. I mean, obviously we could talk about getting enough sleep, making sure you're eating meal. Yes, yes, all those things. But also, what does it look like for you? For some people it might be, I need a 30 minute walk in nature. Or for some people it might mean I need to be in the sunshine or get an hour with a friend once a week or whatever. It looks like figuring out what are the things that you absolutely need to show up for yourself. So if we're not, again, this kind of almost trite feeling, but it's true. If we're not showing up for ourselves and taking care of ourselves, there's no way we can show up for someone else. So I think first of all, it's just getting clear on what those things are. I think a lot of us, we don't often pause to think about what they are until they start being taken away or disappearing. And then we're like, oh, no, things are not good.
- [38:46]
Sarela Roy Greene
Chris's experience with his grandmother was unique in the sense that he was in his 20s when this happened and he was really young. And how can we speak to those who are in their 40s, 50s, 60s, who are now finding themselves in that caregiver role, you know, or they're taking care of their parent and they are themselves a parent and they're working. How might this experience be different for them?
- [39:14]
Hannah Heitz
Yeah, I would say it's okay that you can't do it. All right? It's impossible to juggle at all. And I think that's, you know, my desire to say that stems from the sense that you are a bit more divided and where you have to give your care and attention. And that's not true for everyone. You know, there are plenty of folks in their 20s who are juggling plenty of things, too, and even Chris. Right. But thinking about, you're at a different stage in life, you have different things on your plate, different responsibilities. And I think the same would be true, and I'd be remiss if we didn't touch on the fact that maybe you're not even able to do all of the things that, you know, you need to do to take care of yourself. Okay, what's a step down from all the things, you know, note you need to do? Which of them can you do? Finding ways to be able to just make time for yourself or get as close to enough sleep as you can and asking for help, especially when you are juggling things on both sides.
- [40:24]
Sarela Roy Greene
I think something that you said sparked this thought for me, Hannah, is like knowing your limits. It's okay to say, I can't do that one thing, but I can do these things, right?
- [40:33]
Hannah Heitz
Like, they're only 24 hours in a day.
- [40:37]
Sarela Roy Greene
Do you think that guilt is experienced differently for those who are on the periphery of care versus those who are actually the caregiver?
- [40:49]
Hannah Heitz
I think it can be. I think about in this episode with Mertz, right? They had so much else on their plate and they weren't capable. And just because we're not capable, we physically cannot, doesn't mean we're not going to feel that guilt. That guilt can show up whether it's rational or irrational. So acknowledging that it's a feeling that a lot of us might experience, especially if we feel a lot of compassion or care or wish we could be there. So feeling like this isn't a bad emotion, it's an emotion that we want to acknowledge and be able to give it some breathing room, but we don't want to stay stuck in it.
- [41:34]
Sarela Roy Greene
If anything, I'd love for listeners to take that away today is knowing that there is such a thing as irrational guilt. You know, feeling guilty over the things that you don't really need to feel guilty for because you didn't do anything wrong. You know, not having time or capacity or capability is not something to feel guilty about. It's not something to be. To be ashamed of. Right. It simply exists. So you then do your best in the ways that you can. Right. You know, and I think. And I think caregivers go through the same experience where they have this guilt over I'm letting others down because my focus is on maybe the person I'm taking care of, or I'm letting myself down because I'm not giving myself what I need. Right. Going back to your pressure cooker analogy. Right. Like, don't let the pressure build, don't explode, but at the same time acknowledge it for what it is, and when it's ready to leave, let it leave. And recognize it may not be rational for you to feel guilt over that, you know? Yeah, I love, I love that you said that. How do you think families can do a better job of going from this unspoken idea? Well, it's just what we do to being more spoken, I guess, or more verbal about these types of situations or scenarios that happen within families.
- [42:57]
Hannah Heitz
Absolutely. Communication, being able to have dialogue and opening the door to dialogue. I think often there's not even an opportunity for these conversations to get started Right around how things are going or how people might be feeling. So simply to check in. Right. And it might be that nothing changes, nothing necessarily actionable comes from it. But for someone who is in the position of caregiving or for someone who is on the outside, to be able to check in and have a better sense of what might be happening or to be able to validate what this other person is going through. Right. As a caregiver opening the door to that conversation.
- [43:38]
Sarela Roy Greene
Yeah. And I think the other thing to think about too, and I think this is where maybe people do get a little bit stuck, is, is that it doesn't have to be one right way of doing it either. It doesn't have to be this face to face. We're sitting down at the kitchen table with hot steaming mugs of something to drink and having this very deep conversation like we see in the movies. I mean, for some people, that does happen. But I think being realistic, right, it might have to be over a video call, it might have to be over a text, it might have to be over an email. It has. There are, I think not restricting ourselves too is another way of thinking about it. I'm a huge fan of scripting what you plan to say and what you want to say. When I talk to my clients about these difficult types of conversations, having talking points, but not necessarily being overly scripted and letting the conversation kind of occur with some organic feels to it. And also, I think, and I don't know what you think about this, Hannah, but even offering a space to be able to say, hey, can we talk about how this is feeling for us? And being able to say it in again in a way that isn't like a group therapy session necessarily, right. But being able to give it that, like, hey, I know we're all feeling like this, or I know this is really overwhelming. Like validating, like, this is a lot.
- [44:51]
Hannah Heitz
Like you said, it might just be the therapist in you. I also think of this really common phrase we use in therapy of striking while the iron is cold. And thinking about, especially with conversations like this, where there can be a lot of emotions to acknowledge emotions, but maybe when we're feeling those intense emotions might not be the time we need to have the conversation. It might be, and this is striking, where the iron is cold, is waiting until we've all cooled off right from those high intensity moments to have a conversation where we're all feeling a bit more calm. Often that conversation is going to go a lot differently than it would if someone is feeling overburdened, exhausted, sleep deprived, and someone else is feeling guilty and those emotions are flaring really intensely. That's gonna be a harder conversation to have.
- [45:40]
Sarela Roy Greene
Love that you brought that up. Seriously, I'm so glad you said that because I do think we forget that when we're in that vulnerable space where we're, you know, our emotions again, I always use a thermometer of 0 to 10. Like, where are we 10? Being really hot, like highest. You know, if you're already at a 5, that's already a warning sign of some sort to be able to say, this may not be the right time to have this conversation. Specifically, let's take a minute, let's take a break. Hey guys, I've got a lot right now. Let's wait until a better time. You know, and I think we can all learn that strategy and that skill. But especially when it comes to a loved one that we're taking care of, I think it's really paramount. So I'm really glad you brought that up. I love that. You know, I want to talk a little bit more about going back to the sandwich generation. Right.
- [46:29]
Hannah Heitz
The.
- [46:30]
Sarela Roy Greene
Those of us who are parents, ourselves, or at that stage of life where our parents are aging and, you know, we're. We're perhaps being considered to be in a caregiving role or we find ourselves in a caregiving role. You know, what are. What do you think can help that? You know, that cohort of individuals in terms of managing the pressure, the responsibilities, you know, what unique types of support do you think that the sandwich generation might need?
- [47:05]
Hannah Heitz
So many of the things we've talked about times 10.
- [47:07]
Sarela Roy Greene
Yes. Right, right, right, right.
- [47:09]
Hannah Heitz
100%. Let's turn up. Turn up the volume. And all of them. But really, I think it's figuring out, like you mentioned, what's our capacity, what's realistic, what can we do and how can we show up for folks? And it's gonna. And I think, too, like, the acknowledgment that it's gonna be a bit fluid. It's gonna look different from time to day to day. Right. Year to year, we think about as parents age, as kids grow and develop, what their needs look like are going to shift and change. So having some flexibility with how we can show up and what our capacity is, because that's going to flex.
- [47:48]
Sarela Roy Greene
We do have a couple of listener questions, and I think they're really great questions. Is it selfish to long for my old life before caregiving became my reality? Oh, I know.
- [48:03]
Hannah Heitz
No, right? Absolutely not. Not selfish. And such a great question. I mean, it ties into so many of the themes we've talked about today.
- [48:15]
Sarela Roy Greene
Right.
- [48:15]
Hannah Heitz
That any of the feelings that come up are okay. Right. There's nothing wrong with them. We don't need to judge ourselves for them. Of course. Easier said than done. But not at all selfish. Right. There's grief, there's fomo. There are all the feelings that come with what our life used to look like versus what it looks like now.
- [48:42]
Sarela Roy Greene
I agree 100%. It is not selfish. If anything, I think that speaks to a sense of self that wants acknowledgment and recognition, wants to come out, wants to live. Right. I don't think that that's selfish at all. To want or miss and grieve the life we once had at all. I don't think so. You know, the Other listener question is, I can handle a lot, but not everything. How do I ask for support as a caregiver when it feels hardest?
- [49:15]
Hannah Heitz
That is a great question. I think some of this ties into what we talked about earlier. My initial thoughts, and I'll be excited to hear what you also are thinking about, Shrela. But my initial thoughts are, it's often when we get to that place when it's hardest, like the listener is saying, it's so hard to ask for help. But what can be really helpful is before we get to that place, is to be able to identify signals or let people who are around us know. Like, hey, if you notice that I'm, you know, looking really sleep deprived, or I'm getting a bit snappy, or I'm forgetting my keys in the door, whatever signals it might be, these are some signals that I might need some support. Or if you're not hearing from me, it's really helpful if you check in right before we get to that point. And that's not to say it's impossible to ask for help when things are at their worst or their hardest. We can, but it's a lot harder, right? We're underwater. So if we can help people know before we get to that point or recognize signals of us getting to that point before it happens, I think that is ideal.
- [50:24]
Sarela Roy Greene
Yeah. Yeah, I think I agree 100% with you. I think knowing your warning signs before it gets to that breaking point. I think also even having, like a code word, right, like grapefruit, banana, something silly, right? But, but something that you will all remember and know, like the code within family, friends, the other supports that we have, the peripheral supports in your life to be able to say, uncle, I, I, I need help. I'm, I'm breaking down. And this is that moment and giving it that code to be able to say, this is when I'm afraid to ask for help or I'm struggling to ask for help, but I need you to push in, right? And having that code, I mean, that's just one idea that I have, you know, and, and again, paying attention to yourself, you know, checking in with yourself every day. This is something that, you know, when I did group therapy, especially a lot, I would always be like, all right, check in. Like, let's check in. How are we feeling now? Like, do that for yourself at the start of the day. Do it for yourself at the end of the day, especially as a caregiver. Make note of what makes it a bad day, what makes it a good day, what did you notice when things were starting to feel harder or heavier before you let it overburden yourself again to your point of what you were saying, pay attention to those things. So I think checking in with yourself on a regular basis and also having others pointed out to you if you're somebody, for instance, in my mind I'm thinking of people who are not good at accepting help. You know, especially you've gotta let like that's when you need to tell your people that are in your corner supporting you. I need you to do it. And don't wait for me to ask because you know I'm not going to accept it. And you know, because sometimes that's what you have to do and, and to for yourself and not looking it as a failure or sign of weakness or that you're bad at what you're doing or somehow it's a flaw on you as a human. No, that's instruction for somebody pouring into your cup for you when you can't. And I think it's really important to do that and have the people you trust, you know the most with that do it for you when you need that. But that's what comes to mind for me, you know, as I was thinking about it.
- [52:44]
Hannah Heitz
Yeah. And all those, you know, I think so much of what we're talking about is preventive, which is so important. But I think about, you know, for this listener, you're in your hardest moment taking a minute to take care of yourself. And maybe that literally looks like a couple of deep breaths or giving yourself a hug, which I know sounds silly, but something soothing, something that will regulate, right. Even just for a couple minutes. And that helps us better get online to be able to use these tools that maybe are in our back pocket, but we just literally cannot think of them because we're so overwhelmed.
- [53:17]
Sarela Roy Greene
Really appreciate you taking the time today to join me and having this really incredible conversation and unpacking all of this.
- [53:25]
Hannah Heitz
Oh, thank you so much for having me on.
- [53:27]
Sarela Roy Greene
Thank you again for joining me today. I want to give a big thank you to Better Help for their passion for this project and for giving us a platform to champion the well being in all of us. Mind if We Talk is produced by Acast Creative Studios in collaboration with Better Help and hosted by me, Sri La Green. If you like what you just heard, drop us a review. Review in Spotify or Apple podcasts and share the episode with your friends. Maybe one of our topics will help someone in your life and remember your happiness matters. Mind if we Talk is intended for entertainment and education, not for mental health diagnosis or medical advice.