2880: The Program That Built Mind Pump: 10 Years & 100,000 Transformations

Summary

Podcast Summary: Mind Pump 2880 – The 10-Year Anniversary & Relaunch of MAPS Anabolic

Date: June 15, 2026
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Main Theme: Celebrating the 10-year anniversary of MAPS Anabolic, exploring its origins, the science and philosophy behind the program, notable success stories, and details about the updated relaunch.

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Episode Overview

This episode commemorates the 10th anniversary of MAPS Anabolic, Mind Pump’s foundational and most popular fitness program credited with over 100,000 real-world transformations. The hosts reflect on how MAPS Anabolic was conceived, the unique scientific and experiential principles behind it, how the team came together through the program, and why its straightforward approach stands out from typical industry offerings. They also announce a major relaunch—featuring new blueprints (including tailored options for women), updated FAQs, masterclass videos, and three days of live coaching with Mind Pump trainers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Origins of MAPS Anabolic

[02:36–06:39]

• Doug was Sal’s client: Doug first suggested they create a program to be sold online, leveraging his internet marketing experience.
• Sal’s Influences: Sal’s approach was shaped by classic bodybuilding and strength methods: Dinosaur Training, Starting Strength, and pre-steroid era strength routines.
• Sal analyzed historical methods to understand what worked before steroids; noticed feats of strength and aesthetic development happened without modern supplements or drugs.

Quote:
"I said, how did guys and girls work out before steroids were invented?...and they all kind of trained in a similar way." – Sal [05:03]

2. The Groundbreaking Study and Signaling Theory

[06:41–08:54]

• Sal was inspired by a New England Journal of Medicine study comparing muscle growth in three groups: (a) training only, (b) training + steroids, (c) steroids only.
• Remarkably, the "steroids only" group trended better than training without steroids—leading Sal to rethink signals for muscle growth beyond just exercise-induced stress.

Quote:
"There's a lot of different ways to signal muscle growth... it's not just, you know, causing damage in the gym." – Sal [07:10]

3. Blue Collar Inspiration: Beyond Stress and Damage

[08:54–12:03]

• Sal’s observation: blue collar workers like mechanics and mail carriers developed muscular body parts from repetitive, low-level work, not traditional gym stress.
• This insight shaped "trigger sessions"—low-stress, frequent signals to encourage further growth and recovery.
• Phasing: The idea of changing stimulus (e.g., rep ranges) based on adaptation.

Quote:
"My blue-collar worker family members... had muscular forearms, does low level kind of signaling. Can I send a little bit of a muscle-building signal?" – Sal [28:04]

4. Coming Together & The Birth of Mind Pump

[11:20–17:17]

• The hosts recall how MAPS Anabolic led to the formation of Mind Pump itself.
• Adam, Justin, and Doug discuss their backgrounds—ranging from their own mistakes (entertainment-based workouts, overtraining) to a growing understanding of simplicity and fundamentals.
• Justin points out that MAPS’ high production value and educational focus made "unsexy" programming compelling, which sharply contrasted with flashy, poor-quality programs in the industry.

Quote:
"They made something unsexy, sexy to me... this is what will really help people." – Adam [14:15]

5. The Uniqueness of MAPS Anabolic vs. Industry Norms

[17:18–22:13]

• Unlike most programs, MAPS Anabolic is rooted in effectiveness, not marketing hype.
• Full-body, low-frequency (2–3x/week) strength routines proved far more effective for average people than the high-volume, split routines modeled on pro bodybuilders.
• Doug’s personal story: reducing training days from 4–5 down to 2 led to overcoming back pain and hitting a 400 lb deadlift at 152 lbs bodyweight.

Quote:
"Average client got their best results with good programming two days a week, sometimes three days a week." – Doug [21:31]

6. Programming Philosophy and Why It Works

[22:48–26:14]

• MAPS Anabolic structure: starts with low-rep, heavy phase to quickly build strength (especially for those never exposed to such training), then phases to increase novelty and avoid plateaus.
• The pre-phase is designed for clients new to strength training, ensuring a safe ramp-up.
• “Trigger sessions” (using bands) for recovery and frequent growth signaling.

Quote:
"No, we're doing two [days a week]. And... just watch what happens and we'll see... went from back pain to deadlifting 400 pounds..." – Sal [22:14, on Doug’s transformation]

Quote:
"Most had done circuit reps, high reps... nobody was barbell back squatting, deadlifting, shoulder pressing, five reps. But I knew that, just from novelty... their body change right away." – Justin [24:04]

7. Science Behind Frequency and Volume

[26:14–28:32]

• Sal explains muscle protein synthesis and why full-body routines with higher frequency outperform standard splits for most people.
• Frequent, moderate volume beats high-volume, low-frequency splits for sustainable results in non-genetically gifted or drug-using populations.

8. The Relaunch: Updates and Community Benefits

[30:59–32:25]

• What's New in the Relaunch:
  • Updated Female Blueprint: Program tweaks for women’s common priorities.
  • Enhanced FAQ section: Addressing detailed community questions about phasing and trigger sessions.
  • Masterclass Videos: In-depth breakdowns of core lifts with practical cues.
  • Three Days of Live Coaching: New enrollees get coaching sessions with Mind Pump trainers.
  • Free updates for existing users.
• Discount: 50% off for the relaunch (code: ANABOLIC at mapsanabolic.com).
• Long-standing commitment: Free updates and expansion for current MAPS Anabolic users.

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Notable Quotes & Moments with Timestamps

• Sal on industry myths vs. real needs:
  "I never trained one Ronnie Coleman. No, not one... most people that are working out and wanting to get in shape are not even following even, even if it's quote unquote, good programming following for another pro bodybuilder. It doesn't work... It's not appropriate for where they're at in their current journey and their bodies." — Adam [20:12]

• On simplicity versus entertainment in coaching:
  "It was the core lifts. It was very effective, but it was very effective. I mean, my clients were seeing the best results. They were maybe the least entertained... But this is what's going to build your metabolism. This is what's going to change your body." — Justin [09:12]

• Adam on initial skepticism and discovery:
  "I want to hate first before I like. So I was looking for things to kind of pick apart. But no, I was actually really impressed... it was simple. And I was like, oh, okay, he actually gets it." — Adam [16:16]

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Timeline of Key Segments

• [02:36–06:39]: Historical roots, Doug/Sal connection, and conceptual foundation of MAPS Anabolic.
• [06:41–08:54]: Sal unpacks a critical study, signaling, and why stress isn’t everything.
• [08:54–12:03]: Blue collar inspiration for trigger sessions and phasing.
• [11:44–14:46]: The team forms and contrasts MAPS with prevailing industry fads.
• [17:18–22:13]: Distinction from pro-level/Bro-split models, Doug’s transformation.
• [22:48–26:14]: Program structure, phase logic, and psychological aspects of coaching.
• [26:14–28:32]: Science behind MAPS' frequency and volume.
• [30:59–32:25]: Relaunch details, updates, community exclusives.

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Tone and Style

The episode is infused with camaraderie, humility, and a mix of humor and hard-earned insight. The hosts are blunt about industry flaws but enthusiastic and candid about their own learning curves, mistakes, and breakthroughs. In their words (and spirit):
"We wanted to build authority and we wanted to build value. We wanted to give away knowledge and value and help people." [30:03 — Justin]

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Summary

Episode 2880 of Mind Pump marks a reflective and forward-looking celebration of MAPS Anabolic’s decade of success. The hosts break down how evidence-based, practicality-focused programming—delivered with transparency and skepticism for industry BS—has produced real results for real people. The MAPS Anabolic relaunch builds on this tradition with new features for inclusivity, clarity, and mastery, further securing its place as a trustworthy antidote to flashy, ineffective fitness trends.

For anyone wondering what makes a program genuinely effective and sustainable, this conversation is a masterclass—and the updates promise continued relevance for years to come.

Transcript

[Sal Destefano]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[Doug]

Mind Pump. Mind Pump.

[Sal Destefano]

With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schafer and Justin Andrews, you just found the

[Doug]

most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Guess What? It's the 10 year anniversary of the most popular fitness program that we've ever sold, maps anabolic. Over 100,000 transformations. And here's what we're doing in today's episode. We talk about it, by the way. We reminisce on the origin of Maps Anabolic and the origins of Mind Pump and why Maps Anabolic became so popular. But we're also doing a relaunch of the program and we've got some updates to it. So we have an updated female blueprint. So some different programming for women because they like to focus on certain areas of their body more than men do. There's an updated Frequently asked question section. There's masterclass videos where Adam, Justin and I break down some of the core lifts of the program. And then if you get Maps Anabolic right now, which by the way, it's on sale, I'll get to that in just a second. You get three days of live coaching with one of our top personal trainers here at Mind Pump. By the way, if you already have Maps Anabolic, all the stuff I said is going to get updated for free for you. So if you already have Maps Anabolic, you get the updated blueprints and all that stuff. But if you don't have it and you want to find out why is this program so effective? Why have so many people done this program? Now's the time to get it and you can get it for 50% off. Go to mapsannabolic.com, use the code ANABOLIC. That'll get you 50% off, by the way. This episode is brought to you by a sponsor, ZBiotics. This is a genetically modified probiotic drink that you take when you go and drink. Now, what does it do? Well, it's genetically modified bacteria that, that breaks down acetaldehyde. This is one of the negative byproducts of alcohol consumption. When acetaldehyde gets released in the gut, it causes a lot of different problems in the body. What Zebiotics does is it breaks down the acetaldehyde in the gut. So you feel, or at least when I use it, way better. It's a pre alcohol drink. Go to ZBiotics.com, that's Z B I T, Z B I O t I c s dot com. Forward slash, mindpump26. Use the code mindpump26 and get 15% off. All right, real quick.

[Adam Schafer]

If you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over atmypumpstore.com. i'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over tomypumpstore.com.

[Justin Andrews]

that's it.

[Adam Schafer]

Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Doug]

It's been 10 years and over 100,000 transformations. It's the most popular fitness program that we have here at Mind Pump, and we're relaunching it with some new stuff. So today's episode, we're going to talk all about Maps Anabolic and what we're adding. That's new. If you want to get the relaunch. Let's go.

[Justin Andrews]

Don't. Don't sell yourself short. It's maybe one of the most popular programs on the Internet. Oh, yeah. Cool. I mean, there's not a lot of pit it up against any of those 100,000 is. Is a lot of programs, dude.

[Doug]

That's a lot. A lot of people that have gone

[Justin Andrews]

through Maps Anabolic and for sure. Our foundational program. And what brought us together.

[Doug]

It did. It did bring us together. So it was 10 years ago that we launched it, Doug. But we. When was the program you wrote it?

[Justin Andrews]

Like three years before. Almost three years before that.

[Doug]

Was it three years before that. So.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, we wrote it in 2013.

[Doug]

2013.

[Sal Destefano]

2013.

[Doug]

Yeah. And then we did launch it in 2016.

[Sal Destefano]

No, we launched it initially in 2013.

[Doug]

Oh.

[Sal Destefano]

So we finished it in October.

[Justin Andrews]

That was before you guys met us.

[Sal Destefano]

Exactly.

[Adam Schafer]

They needed the help.

[Doug]

Yeah. Just to get the word Internet marketing.

[Justin Andrews]

Let's be honest. They were missing Justin and I.

[Doug]

So in that program. So the way that it kind of started. Doug was my client at the time. So this was way back when I had a Doug.

[Justin Andrews]

Way to hump. Way to humble me there.

[Doug]

Yeah, I know.

[Justin Andrews]

You pulled up P90X.

[Doug]

Don't look at that.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, you just pulled up like the biggest ever, right? Yeah. Well, we have a ways to go.

[Adam Schafer]

Let's just say how much money they spend marketing. Yeah, exactly.

[Justin Andrews]

Five million copies.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Boy, that just make a dominated.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, I. I'll put. I'll put. I mean, we'll put Maps Anabolic up against any of those.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

If it was your results, I'd like to see.

[Doug]

I bet.

[Justin Andrews]

I bet.

[Adam Schafer]

There you go.

[Doug]

Absolutely. But yeah, I remember. So year. It was a long time ago. So 2013 is when we created it. So probably a year before that, I was training Doug, he was my client and he approached me and said, hey, if you ever want to sell anything online fitness related, I have a little bit of Internet marketing experience.

[Justin Andrews]

So weren't you already kind of dabbling in writing and doing the program though?

[Doug]

No.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, you weren't?

[Doug]

No. So I had come up with the theories around maps, anabolics at this point. I'd been training people for a long time and I'd come to a lot of different conclusions on what works. I had read Dinosaur Training was a book that I read. I understood bodybuilding training. Of course, I'd studied powerlifting programming. And then I'd also looked at bronze era strength training.

[Adam Schafer]

Starting strength.

[Doug]

Yeah. How starting strength was another one. Yeah. And how people strength trained before, essentially before anabolic steroids became a thing. Because I think anabolic, I know this. The anabolic steroids skewed what proper strength training looks like because the people that tend to popularize strength training are the people that look crazy. The most of it, right?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And so when anabolic steroid kind of entered the fray, strength training started to look different. So I said, how did guys and girls work out before steroids were invented? And when I read up on these people, first off, the feats of strength that they performed were remarkable. I mean, they didn't even have protein powder back then, let alone anabolic steroids. But you know, talking about one arm bent press with 300 pounds and incredible looking physiques, and they all kind of trained in a similar way. And so when Doug approached me, I initially I thought to myself, like, what would I, what would I put together? And it just so happened right after that I had read this study from the New England, New England Journal of Medicine that we've quoted on the show in the past. And in this study they had three groups of people, three groups of men that they compared in terms of muscle growth. And there was. Group one was a group of guys that lifted weights. Group two was a group of guys that lifted weights plus took steroids. And group three didn't work out at all, but just took steroids. So they didn't do any lifting weights, they just took steroids. What was shocking about the study was not who got first place, as we would expect, the people that lifted weights and took steroids built the most muscle. Second place was the group that did nothing and took steroids. They actually built more muscle than the group who lifted weights, who didn't take steroids. That wasn't a long study. It was like a 90 day study. Nonetheless, what occurred to me was, you know, there's a lot of different ways to signal muscle growth. And it's not just, you know, causing damage in the gym or stressing the body with exercise, because in this particular scenario with the study, this was a strong hormonal signal. So I started to think of what are the different ways we could signal muscle growth aside from the traditional, you know, stress that we get from strength training. And the reason why this is important is because although it is the most powerful signal you can do, you can induce, aside from taking anabolics, which is a stress from exercise, you're limited. You're limited because you only have so much capacity. You can only handle so much stress. You can only recover and adapt. So what are these other things that we could do? And I also started to think this. I remember this was one night I was up till like 3am when I was. This is when I first really put together Maps Anabolic. I started to think about some of the blue collar workers in my family who didn't lift weights. They had no interest in lifting weights, but they had muscular body parts that corresponded to, like, their work. Like, I had mechanics in my family. They all had really muscular forearms. I had some male carriers in my family. They had really muscular, defined calves. And I thought, you know, what's crazy is, you know, I'm sure if you're a mechanic the first year, you're sore from twisting and cranking on wrenches and stuff. But after that, there's no, like, stress and damage the same thing every single day. But these guys, their forearms look like. Like they lifted weights.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

So there's also some other kind of signaling that's happening that doesn't have to do too much with stress. And so through that I wrote Maps Anabolic, came up with the concept of trigger sessions, came up with phasing, because I knew how the body adapted to different, you know, rep ranges and stuff. And then Doug and I and I had many friends of mine test the program out and everybody was just like, this works. Like, I'm getting stronger, I'm building muscle. I feel good. Like, this is really crazy. And when you look at the program at face value, it looks very simple and basic. But people gave me tons and tons of reviews. And this was before I had brought it to you.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, yeah, I remember how that happened and why this is so such a neat story to me is I'm also, you know, 10 years plus into my career of personal Training and what I'd say, finally getting good, you know, as a coach and trainer. And what I mean by that is, you know, you. You've probably heard us talk on the podcast many times of the mistakes that we made of, you know, over training our clients to crazy soreness and the. The random crazy exercises that we do with them. And so my workouts were always just unique and different and just teaching them all these different ex. And, you know, I went through that phase for several years before I started to realize that, how ineffective it was. And it started to get to a place where my workouts were really simple and boring. But it was the core lifts. It was very effective, but it was very effective. I mean, my clients were seeing the best results. They were the. Maybe the least entertained because. And, And. And I probably had to deal with a lot of this, like, is this all we're going to do? You know, or. And just trust me, this is. We get good at this, we get strong at this. This is what's going to build your metabolism. This is what's going to change your body. Don't worry, I'm going to teach you. I'd always sell them on that. Like, don't worry, I'm gonna teach you all kinds of other stuff first. But we need to lay the right. I used to always use the house analogy of, like, this is laying the foundation. And, and so I, I started to understand that how important this was to program, especially early on, which is we get a lot of clients like that that are either returning athletes, they're 50 years old, they refer to themselves as ex athletes who worked out when, you know, they were in high school and played sports, and then they're out of shape or people that have never lifted weights. I'd say those are the most common clients that you get. And what served them best was really dialing in and training and getting good at these core four or five lifts and then building on and layering on that. And so I'm just starting to figure this out, like almost 10 years into my career, and that switch is clicking for me. And meanwhile, you and I start to get connected through mutual friends. Yet we had heard about each other before, so I knew of, you know, who you were, and, you know, we worked for the same company, but it was a massive company, so you could easily not see each other. And I knew you were a top performer. I knew that we had mutual friends, that we were very respected in the space.

[Doug]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

Some of the best of the best in the fitness space. And so when you had connected with me on Facebook. You know, I was curious to what you were had to say and we obviously we connected on the cannabis thing because of your story with your mother in law and everything you went through and that was the initial connection. And then you shared what you and Doug a piece together and I believe it was the first promo video or what was that video?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, we shot a 30 minute sales video.

[Doug]

Infomercial.

[Sal Destefano]

Infomercial, yeah, actually, yeah. And I think we can actually make it available somewhere so people can watch it.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, I hope so.

[Doug]

It was really a really young style.

[Justin Andrews]

It was really good.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, it was well done.

[Justin Andrews]

And, and at this time to remember this isn't. I mean we started this off talking about P90X. Right. And so you know, this is in the height of beachbody and. And as I'm aware, I'm becoming aware of my own shitty programming and how I need to be programming. I'm becoming more aware of all these other shitty programs. I'm going like this is.

[Adam Schafer]

Well that's. Yeah, that was a lot of my experience, you know, seeing the actual programming of it because I was a little worried and concerned initially because I'd seen a lot of the programs online were very. Especially the bodybuilder kind of segment and hypertrophy. It was pretty ridiculous. There wasn't good programming out there to kind of grab onto. And I was in a gym where it was all serious career trainers. Like I had finally moved around and jumped around a lot of different gyms and then landed on this one where everybody like really knew their. And I was like, you know, a bit insecure, like trying to get back to the core of like what works. Everybody there just cared about getting strong and that was the whole consensus. And so, you know, kind of peeling through the whole thing. I was looking, I'm like, oh, this is not what I expected. Like this is very much about strength and that's what matters. And then it kind of, you know, gets into hypertrophy. But yeah, that was like. My initial impression was like this is a lot different than, you know, what I was expecting.

[Doug]

I was wondering that actually Justin said, I don't know how you were introduced. I know Adam introduced you. So I mean what's funny about this is the maps anabolic stories. The beginning, it's really the beginning of Mind Pump.

[Justin Andrews]

It's actually the origin if it wasn't connected us, if it wasn't for that video. Because at this time Justin and I are kind of doing our own thing. I'm running the cannabis Businesses. I got a side thing with him. We're building a fitness app, and we're doing our own thing. And so I have no interest in another business.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

But when I watched that promo video and I thought, this is so good. And right now, on the most popular programs on the Internet, to Justin's point, and talking about the Beachbody stuff, like, a lot of it was crap. It was good marketing, though. What they had. What they. Marketing, what Beachbody. And a lot of these. These. These programs that people, you know, revered as great, that are sell. Sold millions was because they did great marketing. They did. They weren't great programs.

[Adam Schafer]

High production.

[Justin Andrews]

And I was aware of that. And then I saw this video that you and Doug made. And not only did I think that you guys did a good job from a marketing perspective, like, you. I think you sold the. What you sold. You made something unsexy, sexy to me. And I'm like, this is. And I remember going like, this is it right here. This is, like, what will really help people. And actually, the way you presented it was digestible and, like, interesting. And I thought, oh, man, we have to. We have to get together with. You know, that was when I said, let's all get together. And no plan of any business ideas. It's just like, we're at similar places in our careers and understanding around training and programming.

[Adam Schafer]

Let's just see and help each other.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, let's see if we can help each other. And there was no idea of let's go into business because it was just like, we obviously have things in common. Right. Because we connected on the cannabis thing. We connected on the programming thing. It was like, let's all just get together. And I think I remember you saying, or we talked about, you and I, can I bring my buddy Justin with me? And so that was kind of how it all started, was let's get in a room together and. And just hear each other out.

[Doug]

The reason why, because I, I, you know, taking a step back, I had heard of you through Mutual Friends as well. And when we wrote. When we came out with the program, created the marketing material, wrote out the blueprints, so essentially you had the program all done. I remembered, like, I don't know what it was, but I thought, Adam, I'm gonna show Adam. I've heard good things about him. I want his opinion. I had no idea of selling anything to you. I had no idea of working with you. I just thought, I want your opinion. So that's what I did. I sent a message to Adam. I said, hey, can I send you something and get your opinion? Adam's always open for stuff like that. So I sent it to you and then that's when you sent me a message. It's like, hey, let's get together. And then your side of the story. I'm not too familiar with Justin, because you were. I would consider you one of the best workout programmers I've ever met, especially back then, because you, you were and you were surrounded with really, really good coaches and trainers. I'd say you're probably in one of the best studios in the area. It's not one of the. If not the best.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And so I didn't know that. So Adam showed it to you before we all met.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. You know, and I was in that headspace. You know how I am. I want to hate first before I like. So I was looking for things to kind of pick apart. But no, I was actually really impressed and it. Because again, like the, the hype video and all that, I was like, okay, there's, there's something here. But I, I was worried that it was going to go more towards the, the over intensity and go into like, it was either going to be one of those over intensity ones or it was going to be way too much crazy bodybuilder volume. And. Yeah. And it just was not either of those things. And, and for me, again, your kind of background of like dinosaur training, you know, starting strength, like, I was doing a lot of RKC and I was learning a lot of like old, you know, strength methods. And I was around a lot of trainers that were like very much into just sports performance, but also just like, we just are about strength and like the whole gym, you know. So it actually like was kind of perfect in the sense that it was simple. And I was like, oh, okay, he actually gets it.

[Doug]

Well, you.

[Justin Andrews]

He was. Which really cool. I mean, you're kind of briefly talking about it, but Justin was. It's such a cool incubator. I mean for the audience probably actually knows now. People like stick mobility.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Which is developed there. Oh, you know, it's interesting. Sorry to cut you off. But like, so the first class they ever did and they, they run like certifications now and like all worldwide and whatnot. But I was in that very first class. They just posted a picture the other day.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, really?

[Adam Schafer]

They're doing. Yeah. Doing the, the, the Archer stretch and, and they developed it and they, you know, we all kind of riffed and contributed to it and then they just took off with it with this entire Philosophy. A couple people too, like, went off to become, like, trained a lot of UFC fighters.

[Justin Andrews]

I was gonna say you had, you had guys that were training pro, pro fighters. Yeah. You had rock climbing dudes, you had stick mobility, you had sports performance guys.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, he, he had. You had a real power lifter guy. I mean, the. I remember coming in there, the pedigree of coaches was incredible, was just. And. And diverse.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

You know, a lot of times gyms have a culture. It was super unique and diverse, so you could go in there and see just all kinds of random cool training and really intelligent coaches and trainers and so. And you were there for a while?

[Adam Schafer]

I was, yeah. I was actually lucky. Yeah. But I mean, it was one of those things I've jumped because when you're an independent trainer, you're always looking for, like, good gyms to kind of bring your clients to where everybody's bought in, and you just didn't get that many places. Like, there's just a lot of lazy trainers, a lot of, like, you know, dysfunction, and, you know, and the owners aren't really that great and cool. And so I just got lucky if I landed on that place. And. And really, I ended up learning a lot from everybody around.

[Justin Andrews]

Does it still exist?

[Adam Schafer]

It does. I. I went.

[Justin Andrews]

Same owner, too?

[Adam Schafer]

Uh, same owner, yeah.

[Doug]

Really?

[Adam Schafer]

Same owner, yeah.

[Doug]

And it's.

[Adam Schafer]

It's literally like. It's like nobody touched it except a lot of the trainers left. There's some that I still know there, but it's. Yeah, it's still there.

[Doug]

Yeah. You, you, you mentioned strength a lot, Justin. Like one of the game changing things for me as a trainer, because when I, I trained mostly everyday people, I didn't train athletes. I mean, I'd had athletes, but 99% of my clients were everyday people looking to get fit. Number one goal was weight loss. Typically, you know, moms, dads, just everyday people who want to get fit. And when I piece together that if I get them stronger, everything else clicks, like, everything else works. If I can get these people stronger in certain lifts and in all lifts, but in certain lifts and over time, if I continue to improve their strength and we work on diet and stuff like that, things work. Things just work. Their bodies work, their metabolism boosted, they got leaner, they had no pain, they felt better. And I'm like, I think strength has got to be one of the most important things. Even if they're not strength athletes, I got to focus on that. Well, it's going to be one of

[Justin Andrews]

the new things that's you're also touching on another thing, another piece to the secret sauce or formula to you know, maps, anabolic and mind pump and everything working the way it did is. And something that we all kind of brought to this that was unique. So kind of to Justin's point with the bodybuilding program because there was, there's some, there's a lot of pro bodybuilders that put out programming and stuff that's out there. It was very. What the average person doesn't understand is, yeah, I know that Ronnie Coleman looks like that.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

But you have no business training like that. You're nowhere near that level or taking what he's taking or the genetic anomaly that he is. So you shouldn't be. But yeah, everybody is drawn to that because they're famous and they look a certain way. And so those were some of the most popular things that were out there. And what we had experienced with was like I never trained one Ronnie Coleman. No, not one. Like. And we've between all of us, thousands of people we've worked with, right. And they've none, none of, no, no one. And I can count on one hand how many collegiate level athletes I even got to train. So most people that, that are working out and wanting to get in shape are not even following even, even if it's quote unquote, good programming following for another pro bodybuilder. It doesn't work, it doesn't work for the average person. It's not appropriate for where they're at in their current journey and their bodies

[Doug]

just don't respond right. When I had clients who were willing, I had a lot of these clients, especially later in my career, who were willing to come in as much as I asked them to. They would pay for sessions and I'll come five days a week if you need, six days a week if you want. They got their best results two days a week. Two days a week. Average client got their best results with good programming two days a week, sometimes three days a week.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, that's Doug.

[Doug]

That was it.

[Justin Andrews]

That's Doug's part of the story.

[Doug]

That's right, right.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean Doug, Doug is a lifelong, you know, magazine reader, lifter, you know, self experimenting fitness guy and knowledgeable in his own right and had been trying to chip away at changing his body composition. And I remember the first thing you did with him was reduce his volume training.

[Doug]

When he hired me, first of all, he came to me because he had back pain. He got sent to me from a chiropractor and he comes in we start talking, Doug's like, all right, cool. How many days a week are we going to work out? I could have very easily said four days a week, Doug would have been fine. Five days a week, he would have been fine. No, we're doing two. And I remember he had a little bit of like skepticism, like two days a week, is that it? I said, just watch what happens and we'll see. Two days a week we follow this kind of programming, this style of programming. And Doug went from having back pain to deadlifting 400 pounds at a body weight that's well below, what, 170 pounds or something like that.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, at the time was 152 pounds.

[Doug]

Deadlifting four pounds, 150 pounds. Yeah. This is a guy with back pain who thought he had bad genetics, by the way. If you know Doug now, you know he doesn't have bad genetics. He can build muscle. But because he had followed that bodybuilder style programming, which it just doesn't work for the vast majority of people. It just doesn't work. Your body will not respond. Now if you've got crazy genetics and you're on steroids, maybe, but for the average person, it just doesn't work. And so I put this program together and by the way, you're the first person to pick up on something in Maps Anabolic. Nobody else picked up on this. When you look at Maps Anabolic, it's broken up into three phases. And you phase a program typically because the body adapts and you want to move into a new phase to change the stimulus to get the body moving in another direction. You also want to build more well rounded strength and you want to add different things. But a lot of it has to do with avoiding plateaus. Okay. But I started MAP Synabolic in phase one with a low rep, low rep, heavy heavyweight phase. So you're doing like five reps or three reps. Nobody picked up on this except for you. You got this. And Adam right away saw, why. Why would you put a phase one in the beginning? And Adam knew right away, said, oh, because most people don't train this way. And right out the gates by week two, they're going to see crazy strength gains because they've never done this and they're going to be hooked. That was exactly.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, that was another connection that we had. That was a big selling point for me because this is, I remember this epiphany again. A majority of our clients, over 60% of my clientele were female. Most were middle age. Most wanted body Composition change. Most had never trained. Five by five training. Most had done circuit reps, circuit class, high reps, maybe hypertrophy, 10 to 12 reps. Nobody was barbell, back squatting, deadlifting, shoulder pressing, five reps. Yeah, but I knew that because of that. Just from the novelty side, if I wanted to get this girl to be bought into what I am about to teach her, I'm going to show her like rapid strength gains and her body change right away. Well, what's the best way to do that? Take her out of something she's never done before. Give her long rest periods, get her to lift heavier weight than she ever does and in two, three weeks she's going to be like, holy crap, I feel a different. Her appetite goes up. Her libido also like. And then. And in part of being a good coach and trainer is being able to sell yourself on that you know what you're doing and that I've got this path laid out for us. And so there's always this, this challenge of giving the client what they want and then knowing what's best for them. Right. And so that they, they buy into the vision and that's. And as a young trainer, I fell into the trap of giving them what they want, which is a hard workout and unique exercises because I knew that's what they wanted. And so that was my value was, oh, I could, I know all kinds of exercises. I know form and technique and, and I can definitely work you out, I could write a hard program. And so I fell into the trap of trying to appease them that way. And so now I know the better pathway. But I'm like, how do I sell it to them or get them bought in? Well, I got to show them results fast. And I know I don't want to do it just through burning calories and showing them weight loss. Oh, but if they saw a major strength change in their body change and

[Doug]

they felt the skull, yes, things get solid.

[Justin Andrews]

And no, no, there was no faster way for me than getting. And this is an overgeneralization, but it's a majority was getting my women to lift heavy weight for the first time in their lives. It blew their mind. And so when I saw that you had laid it out in that way, I'm like, oh, I know what he's doing here.

[Doug]

That's right. And you're the first person to identify that. And by the way, the reason why Maps Anabolic has a pretty pre phase is precisely because for some people you can't start with that kind of phase. For some people, you got to start by getting your body used to strength training. And so I put a pre phase in there just to protect those particular clients. The trigger sessions came later. So the initial when I first put the program together, and by the way, I'll touch on why it's broken up in a full body splint, why it's two to three days a week. You can find these studies now, but back when I wrote this, these studies were not like widely understood. But what happens when you, when you build muscle or when you lift weights is we can measure what's called muscle protein synthesis. We can see the signal and that's your body building muscle. Well, that spikes about 24 hours after you work out. Then it quickly drops by 48 to 72 hours down to baseline. If you wait longer, it goes below baseline. So what happens? Your body will build, then it'll drop. Then your body's like, oh, we don't need this. And then you start to lose a little bit. So I said, you know what, instead of training a body part once a week again, here we are much later, 13 years later, lots of studies support this. This isn't new now, but back then it was. I thought, why would I hit a body part once a week like the bodybuilders, when I could hit it more frequently? Do a full body workout and maintain that muscle protein synthesis signal above baseline. If it goes down after 48 hours or 72 hours, let's get it to pop back up. Now going back to bodybuilders, well, why do they train one body part a day or once a week? First of all, with those kind of genetics, I bet we don't have any studies to support this. But I bet you if we look at their muscle protein synthesis signal, it stays elevated for a long time. When you're looking at a genetic freak like a Mr. Olympia or a pro bodybuilder who builds muscle, who by the way, is more muscular than I am. When they're not lifting weights, you can look at pictures of Phil Heath and he was playing college basketball, far more muscular than I am now. That muscle protein synthesis signal just stays elevated. The average person, it drops and your body's not trying to build all this expensive tissue. So that's when I did the full body workout or the full body split. And then the trigger sessions came in because I said, you know what I noticed? My blue collar worker family members, they're not breaking muscle down, they're not sending a loud signal. But he's got muscular forearms, does Low level kind of signaling. Keep that up. Can I send a little bit of a muscle building signal?

[Adam Schafer]

Frequent little hits.

[Doug]

Yeah. And also on top of it. It's not damaging. In fact, trigger sessions actually help with recovery. And I had experiences with this as a kid where I would work out a body part, it would get sore. Want to go hang out with my buddies. And I was always afraid of moving the muscle because I don't want to lose gains. But sometimes you get carried away. You want to go hang out with your buddies. Then I'd come home and be like, well, I'm not as sore. I was riding my bike. My legs aren't as sore.

[Adam Schafer]

Huh.

[Doug]

That's kind of weird. Never put two and two together. But the little signals from the trigger sessions help maintain. The theory was will help maintain this kind of muscle protein synthesis signal. And getting a little bit of a pump, getting the blood flow in and out of the muscle. That's when I added the trigger sessions and I used bands. The reason why I put bands in there initially was because of the convenience. I said, if I'm going to have people do five minute little pump sessions on their off days, they're not going to be next to a gym.

[Adam Schafer]

It's less damaging.

[Doug]

That was the plus. The plus was when I did it with bands like, wait a minute, this is even better. It's not damaging. It's actually facilitating recovery because bands just don't cause as much damage. And that's when the whole program came together. And when I tested it and I sent it to probably 15 of my friends, some of them were personal trainers, others were just whatever. Some were clients. Doug was one of the people. Everybody kept reporting back. I have never seen progress. The way that people were responding was so encouraging. Then I sent it to you.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

We all got together, we met, we decided to start Mind Pump. And we didn't sell and a Maps Anabolic.

[Justin Andrews]

Even though we had a year.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah. The program was done, was ready to go. And just for people listening right now, the reason why we never sold Maps Anabolic in that first year was not because we didn't have the program, was because we wanted people to know that we knew what we were talking about. We wanted to build authority and we wanted to build value. We wanted to give away knowledge and value and help people. And when it got to the point where people were like, can you guys please create a program or do something? It's like, we got one for you.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And then we launched Maps Anabolic and it just, until this day it's the most popular program.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, by far. It's, it's by far the most popular that we have. And still fun. I love. There's still some skepticism when people buy it and they open it up for the first time. This is not enough. This is for beginners only. Yeah. And then it's always fun to get somebody to stick with it. And that's why we always tell people like listen, we can, you can modify it for yourself after you've run through it one time. But run through it the way it's laid out, just watch and it always blows people.

[Doug]

So what we're going to do because it's like the 10 year anniversary essentially is we're going to relaunch it and we added a few things. So we did. Updated female blueprints. So I made some programming changes, some slight changes for women. Women tend to be more interested in training certain parts of their body, less interested in training other parts of the body. So the programming can be slightly switched or moved around a little bit. And you get this in the female blueprint. We've also updated the frequently asked questions so people have questions on trigger sessions and phasing. So I updated those. We also put new masterclass videos. So these masterclass videos are Adam, Justin and myself breaking down the some of the core lifts, the barbell squat, the bench press, the overhead press, the good morning behind, the neck press, you know, type of lifts like lifts that more coaching cues need some coaching. And then with the relaunch, there's three days of life coaching with one of our coaches. So when you enroll in Maps Anabolic, you'll get three days of life coaching with one of our trainers. Now if you already have Maps Anabolic,

[Justin Andrews]

all this gets updated.

[Doug]

It's just going to get updated automatically. You've got to buy a single thing. You're welcome. We're just going to update your, your program and you get some of these new things. But if you don't have Maps Anabolic, you heard about it, you want to try it? It's all updated. It's going to be 50% off for the relaunch. So you get it for half off. It's the same link that it was day one. Mapsanabolic.com use the code anabolic and you'll get 50% off. And then you can see what a hundred thousand people have already seen, which is phenomenal results. Go check that out.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health, health and energy and maximize your overall performance. Check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed work, workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.