2540: Ranking the Top 5 Ways to Build Your Chest

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth Episode 2540: Ranking the Top 5 Ways to Build Your Chest Release Date: February 24, 2025

In Episode 2540 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth, hosts Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews delve deep into the most effective strategies for maximizing chest growth and development. Drawing from their combined experience of over 40 years in the fitness industry, they break down the top five techniques that can transform your chest training regimen. This comprehensive summary captures the essence of their discussions, complete with notable quotes and timestamps to highlight key insights.

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1. Fight the Negative Portion of Chest Exercises

Timestamp: [01:23]

Adam Schafer kicks off the discussion by emphasizing the importance of the eccentric (negative) phase in chest exercises, particularly presses. He explains, “The negative portion of a rep sends the loudest muscle-building signal. It causes the most damage as well” ([03:12]). By controlling the descent of the weight and resisting the separation of the elbows, lifters can place greater emphasis on the chest muscles. Justin Andrews adds, “Nobody focuses on the negative,” highlighting a common oversight in many training programs ([02:12]).

Key Takeaways:

• Eccentric Training: Slowing down the negative phase enhances muscle fiber activation.
• Technique Focus: Concentrate on resisting the separation of elbows to engage the pectorals more effectively.

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2. Drive the Hands Together on All Chest Presses

Timestamp: [08:33]

Adam Schafer introduces the second technique, which involves driving the hands together during chest presses. On a barbell, this means gripping the bar tightly and attempting to slide the hands inward without altering their position. He notes, “You’ll get like three less reps. It creates that much more tension in the chest as you're pressing” ([10:00]). Justin Andrews explains how this technique mimics the natural movement seen with dumbbells, where hands often converge at the top of the press, thereby maximizing chest activation.

Key Takeaways:

• Increased Tension: Driving the hands together enhances chest muscle engagement.
• Adaptability: Dumbbells naturally allow for hand convergence, offering similar benefits.

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3. Focus on the Stretch in Fly Movements

Timestamp: [13:06]

Emphasizing the importance of muscle stretching, Adam Schafer states, “Resistance while a muscle is in a stretch position produces the loudest muscle growth signal” ([13:06]). Whether using dumbbells, cables, or machines, incorporating a full range of motion in fly movements ensures maximum muscle fiber recruitment. Justin Andrews advises against shortening the range of motion to lift heavier weights, asserting that “emphasizing the deepest range of motion is where the gold is at” ([14:09]).

Key Takeaways:

• Full Range of Motion: Ensuring a thorough stretch during flys stimulates greater muscle growth.
• Avoid Shortcuts: Resist the temptation to reduce range for increased weight; prioritize muscle engagement.

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4. Rotate Palms Down During Flys for Better Chest Activation

Timestamp: [15:50]

Contrary to some traditional methods, Adam Schafer recommends internally rotating the humerus by rotating the palms downward during fly movements to maximize chest contraction. He explains, “Internally rotate the humerus to make that happen, not externally rotate” ([15:50]). Justin Andrews supports this by noting that externally rotating the hands often shifts the focus to the triceps rather than the chest.

Key Takeaways:

• Internal Rotation: Rotating palms downward enhances upper chest activation.
• Proper Form: Ensures that the chest muscles, rather than secondary muscles, are the primary movers.

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5. Optimize the Order of Chest Exercises

Timestamp: [17:23]

The final technique involves structuring your chest workout to prioritize upper, mid, and lower chest exercises, followed by isolation movements. Justin Andrews champions starting with incline presses, arguing that “for overall chest development, the incline press is already superior” ([17:44]). This approach ensures that the most impactful exercises receive the most energy and focus, leading to balanced chest development.

Key Takeaways:

• Exercise Sequencing: Begin with incline presses, followed by flat presses and dips, then isolation exercises.
• Balanced Development: Proper sequencing promotes uniform growth across all areas of the chest.

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Additional Insights and Q&A

1. Does a Big Bench Press Equal a Big Chest? Timestamp: [24:17]

Adam Schafer debunks the myth that a high bench press directly correlates with chest size. Drawing comparisons between powerlifters and bodybuilders, he notes that bodybuilders often achieve superior chest development without benching excessively heavy weights. Justin Andrews reinforces this by stating, “If you're a pro bodybuilder, your chest development... is better than the best benchers” ([25:34]).

2. How Many Sets Per Week Should You Do for Chest? Timestamp: [26:58]

The hosts discuss optimal training volumes, with Adam Schafer suggesting that “12 to 20 sets per week” can be effective, though Justin Andrews recommends a more conservative range of “9 to 12 sets” for the majority, emphasizing that quality and progressive overload are more crucial than sheer volume ([27:44], [29:00]).

3. Should Women Worry About Chest Training? Timestamp: [31:12]

Addressing female listeners, Adam Schafer affirms the importance of chest training for women, highlighting benefits such as improved posture and functional strength. He assures that “developing your pecs, you're not going to get these massive... unless you're a pro bodybuilder” ([31:12]).

4. Are Push-Ups a Good Chest Exercise? Timestamp: [34:10]

Both Adam and Justin advocate for push-ups as valuable for chest development, particularly for adding volume without excessive strain. They highlight push-ups as excellent for trigger sessions and maintaining muscle pump ([34:10], [35:19]).

5. Chest Training Advice for Those with Shoulder Pain Timestamp: [36:45]

For individuals experiencing shoulder pain, Adam Schafer emphasizes the importance of shoulder mobility and stability. He recommends exercises like handcuffs with rotation, wall circles, and stick dislocates to enhance shoulder health and facilitate effective chest training ([36:45], [38:54]).

6. Dumbbells vs. Barbells vs. Machines for Chest Timestamp: [39:45]

Adam and Justin advocate for a balanced approach, incorporating all three modalities. They suggest that free weights (dumbbells and barbells) should form the cornerstone of chest workouts, complemented by machines for isolation and volume without overtraining ([39:45], [41:36]).

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Conclusion

Episode 2540 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth offers a treasure trove of actionable strategies for anyone looking to enhance their chest development. By focusing on nuanced techniques such as fighting the negative portion of lifts, emphasizing muscle stretch, and optimizing exercise order, listeners can achieve balanced and significant chest growth. Additionally, the hosts provide valuable advice on training volumes, gender-specific training considerations, and the integration of various equipment to create a well-rounded chest workout routine. Whether you're a novice lifter or an experienced athlete, the insights shared in this episode are poised to elevate your chest training to new heights.

Transcript

[Sal Destefano]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[Adam Schafer]

Mind Pump. Mind Pump.

[Sal Destefano]

With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schafer and Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[Adam Schafer]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode we talk about five techniques you can use to maximize chest gains and growth. Now this episode is brought to you by sponsoring State and Liberty. This place is amazing. They make formal wear suits for people or guys who lift weights. You can take a suit off the rack. It'll fit you. You don't have to tailor it. It means if you've got wide shoulders, smaller waist, bigger legs, it fits and it's comfortable. By the way, if you go to mpstateandliberty.com and you're getting married, talk about getting a consultation for your wedding. If you go with them, they'll give you a hundred dollar gift card plus a free outfit. They are incredible outfit. Your whole team. Go to mpstateandliberty.com we also have a sale this month. Maps, anabolic and the no BS six pack formula combined together. Both of them together bundled $59.99. You save over $114. If you're interested, go to maps february.com that's maps february.com all right, here comes the show. You want to maximize chest growth. You want to maximize the gains in your chest. There are techni you can utilize in the gym to really make this happen. Today we're going to rank the top five techniques you can do to maximize chest gains and growth. I'll start with one. Fight the negative portion of chest exercises, especially presses properly. A lot of people don't realize that the pecs bring the elbows together. They bring the upper arms together. So when you're lowering the bar, fight that part of the rep fight the separation of the elbows to add more emphasis on the chest.

[Justin Andrews]

Can we get the editing team to edit the comment or the take a picture and edit the comment of the guy who did said nice chest to s old school. That was you? Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Weak chest.

[Justin Andrews]

Is that what it was? Oh, I thought it was a nice chest. It said weak.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what it said?

[Matt]

It just looks like it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I, I love this because I, I think that, I mean if, obviously if you listen to the show for long enough, you've heard me talk about that. Nobody focuses on the negative. And I remember the first time reading how important the eccentric portion of an exercise is, right? The negative of an exercise, how much more muscle you can build there and that the Right. The protocol for that is like four seconds down. Any you walk in a gym, you look at anybody doing it and nobody. Everyone's just dropping the weight down, going back up. And so just controlling that movement or that portion of the exercise has tremendous value in building muscle.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. When you look at a muscle contracting, it either contracts concentrically, it shortens. So that's like flexing your bicep eccentrically means it's contracting as it's lengthening. So that would be like opening my arm with resistance. And then isometric is just holding a flex. Well, when they study each contraction type, the negative portion of a rep sends the. The loudest muscle building signal. It causes the most damage as well.

[Matt]

Damage for sure.

[Adam Schafer]

But it also causes or sends the. The loudest growth signal. So a slow negative is important, but really emphasis here is on the technique, the chest, the pecs, among most things, because they do a couple different things. But the main function of the pecs is called horizontal adduction of the humerus. So the humerus is the upper arm bone here, horizontal, meaning here in this plane here. And what it's doing is it's bringing that upper arm, the two upper arm bones, humerus, together. So as I'm bench pressing, you can see that it's pulling my elbows together at the top. But as I lower, if I can think of the action of the pecs and fight that portion of the rep, don't just lower it slowly, but rather lower it slowly, but also concentrate on that separating part of the elbow. It makes a big difference. By the way, this isn't just based off of feel, although you'll feel it more if you try it, test it out for yourself. But studies show that when people concentrate on a muscle and focus on its function, or even just think about, by the way, just think about the muscle that they're trying to work, they activate more muscle fibers, which is cool because bodybuilders have said this for a long time, like Arnold used to say this. You know, when you're doing curls, I imagine my biceps growing. I think about them growing. Studies show that if you actually figured.

[Matt]

Out the muscles, yes, you can, you could actually influence that by just really concentrating. And two, it provides that signal that your joints are safer. And so as you increase that amount of recruitment and you can tense your muscles to that degree, that's. That's another thing that's beneficial in terms of now allowing you to produce more force the next preceding reps.

[Adam Schafer]

Absolutely.

[Justin Andrews]

Now, what is your take on how different people. Because you'll see different people recommend elbow positioning when they're, when they're pressing. Some will have a tighter inward. You'll see some with more of a bodybuilding style where they emphasize flaring the elbows. So what's your opinion on the different styles of pressing? Is it, is one necessarily better than the other? Is one superior for building muscle? Is one better for getting a better lift? Like, what's your thought on the different strategies as far as how to position your elbows in the press?

[Adam Schafer]

If you're just trying to target the chest because of the action of the chest, elbows flaring out is going to do that. However, you're going to sacrifice the amount of force that you can generate by doing that. So power lifters don't bench that way. Right. Powerlifters don't bench with the elbows flared out. Their elbows are more tucked as they're pressing. So you'll be able to generate more force.

[Matt]

That makes more sense.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, but you're also using more leverage, better leverage. You're using more of your anterior delts in front of the delts in that kind of a press. And the shoulder is in a safer position with the elbows slightly tucked. So it is a trade off. That being said, if you're smart and you're not trying to both go for a max bench and flare out the elbows. Right. If you're doing this by feeling and treating it the way a bodybuilder would, which is how can I really feel this in the chest? Control the rep, fight that negative, bring the elbows together at the top, then you're going to be okay. You know, of course, given that you have healthy shoulders and good mobility. So flaring them out is going to activate the pecs more.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

But if you want a bigger intention.

[Matt]

That, that makes sense.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, so I, this is kind of how I've approached it personally and with clients. More so with myself, though, because this is, we're starting to get into, you know, levels of like, you know, this techniques and changing little things like this. Right. So when I am, when I'm lifting like singles, doubles, triple, triples, and I'm going for max lifts, so I'm going to toggle between the two of them. I'm going to, I'm going to more.

[Adam Schafer]

Like a power lifter.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I'm going to lift more like a power lifter to get my bench up higher than it's ever been. Right. So to, to, to get strong enough to carry a load that my, that my chest has never done before and build that overall strength and then I'm gonna have phases of training where I'm focused on hypertrophy, and I'm going to be doing 8 to 12 reps, and the weight's going to be significantly lighter than what that is. And then that's where I'm going to flare the elbows more like a bodybuilder and really slow down the tempo and resist on the way down. And so I feel like getting comfortable with the heavy weight, doing it in the more powerlifter, traditional way to get heavy and loaded and strong that way. And then when I lighten the load, putting myself. What you would argue is maybe more at risk for your shoulder because you're flaring it, but then better for the chest is how I would do that.

[Adam Schafer]

Right. By the way, like machine makers, hammer strength was the first one to really. One of the first ones to really effectively do this with chest press machines is understanding the action of the chest. You know, back in the day, chest press machines, and there's still a lot of machines like this where the bar is fixed just like a barbell. Right. It's fixed, but hammer strength started angling the handle so that as you press, the hands would come together.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Because of the action of the chest, this made hammer strength. Chest press still makes them.

[Matt]

It's smooth.

[Adam Schafer]

Very popular because they work the pec, the way that the pec, you know, needs to be worked. So when you're bench pressing, I mean, you can think, just move the bar up. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you want to maximize and utilize this technique, what you think as you're pressing is bring the elbows together and then let the elbows come apart and resist that on the way down. And what you'll find is you feel it more in the chest as you're doing the press.

[Matt]

That's funny. You're talking about driving the hands together. Like, I. I actually pulled. Like, I focus on the grip, really gripping hard and kind of pulling apart on the way down and pushing inward kind of on the way in. But obviously they're fixed because you have a grip. But the intention of it was that.

[Adam Schafer]

So that's the next technique. Right. So. And it's funny because you just. You just named one for strength. But we're talking about building. Right. The chest. The next one is to drive the hands together on all chest presses. All right. What does this look like on a barbell? Cause your hands are fixed. You grip the bar real tight, and you almost like you're trying to slide your hands together. That's the angle or that's the direction of tension as you're pressing and as you're lowering, you also simultaneously gripping the bar and trying to bring your hand. Don't actually bring your hands together, but that's the direction of tension. That'll also activate your chest even more. Now what you just said was the opposite. As you lower, pull them apart because you're maximizing force, which is a different conversation.

[Justin Andrews]

So you know how, you know something like this is so effective when a product is birthed? Because of it?

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Have you guys ever seen the sliding.

[Matt]

Bar bench bar looks interesting.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I've never tried it. I've actually never used it before. It seems a little bit ridiculous because it's. My hands are sliding back and forth while I'm trying to press. But the logic behind it makes sense because of this, what you're talking about right now, because of what you're telling, what you're cueing the audience to do to maximize their, their bench. This basically is incorporating that word, slide it.

[Adam Schafer]

By the way, when you try this on a barbell, you're going to lift less. So you, you take your normal weight. You know, let's say you, you use 135 pounds on an incline press or a bench press. And 10 reps is usually what you can get. And then you're like, okay, what I'm gonna do now is I'm gonna grip the bar and drive my hands together as I'm doing the reps. You'll get like three less reps. It creates that much more tension in the chest as you're pressing. And that's the point. The point of this is it's a technique that'll activate the chest more, create more tension, and make your normal exercise more effective. From a hypertrophy standpoint, by the way, dumbbells allow you to do this naturally, which is why a lot of people like dumbbells. Yeah, when you're doing a chest press with dumbbells, you never keep the hands the same distance apart at the top. In fact, that's kind of weird, right? You tend to bring them together at the top. Which, which is, which is kind of what we're talking about here. But from a barbells perspective, creating that.

[Justin Andrews]

Inward, I mean, the dumbbell also allows you to drop down in your shoulders, kind of natural pockets and position to come down too. Which is why I've always been such a fan of teaching clients on dumbbells for that, that purpose. And then as they progress, then you could go more, more advanced barbell, you could load that's the, that's the huge benefit. But why the bar? Because then one would argue, well, then why don't you just use dumbbells all the time? Yep, because dumbbells are better for that for what you're talking about. But the perk of the barbell is you're going to load, you're going to be able to load more than what you're going to be able to do.

[Adam Schafer]

What's interesting too about that conversation, not that bodybuilders have all the answers, but when it comes to hypertrophy, that's what they are. They're hypertrophy experts. And so I don't think people should train like bodybuilders necessarily. But I do think that there's a lot of clues in terms of technique and methods that, you know, most people can utilize. And what you tend to find with bodybuilders is they tend to navigate from barbells to dumbbells. As they become more advanced, you'll notice this bodybuilders will utilize barbells as they're coming up and as they get bigger, they start to move more to dumbbells because at some point you get so big and so strong handling max weight, the risk versus reward isn't very good. So they go to dumbbells because of the full range of motion and bring the hands together. Nonetheless, average person should use both because they're both valuable. Next is to really focus on the stretch on all fly movements. What we now are seeing in the data in studies is what old school bodybuilders have talked about for a long time, where the stretch is really a great way to stimulate muscle growth for any muscle. What we're finding in the data is resistance while a muscle is in a stretch position produces the loudest muscle growth signal of all of the positions of the muscle. Far more than the squeeze or the mid range, the stretch sends the loudest signal. Now to be clear, all the ranges of motion through the chest send a muscle growth signal. But when you're doing a fly where you can really emphasize the stretch, you're wasting the fly if you don't emphasize the stretch. Really play with that range of motion so long as you keep yourself safe and that will make it so much more effective.

[Matt]

Well, it just seems too in that position it's the most vulnerable. And so therefore, you know, your body is very protective of that range of motion. And so it's like, you know, to build and strength and that must have a cascading effect. But, but even too, just focusing on End range. A lot of times, you know, we don't go through full range of motion in some of these movements, and you're missing out on that extra 3, 30 something percent potential of growth in your muscle.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I think the two biggest takeaway from this point is that, one, you do it, you incorporate flies, right? Because there's some people that you'll catch that, you know, just bench press all the time or just dumbbell stuff, and they don't like because flies is lighter, it's harder. Or don't do it, whatever. One, do it. Two, when you do it, don't shorten the range up just so to go heavier. You know, emphasize the deepest range of motion of the exercise, because that's where the gold is at, right? Because that's the other. So one, I see some kids skip it, not doing flies. So don't do that. Make sure you incorporate it. And then the other mistake I see is the, you know, shortening the range up just so they can grab heavier dumbbells because they put the weights down lighter.

[Matt]

Yeah. Get full range.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. Right. So that. Those are the two big takeaways from that.

[Adam Schafer]

The whole point of a fly, in my opinion, I think there's. There's a few points to it, few valuable aspects of a fly. One of them is help, you know, connect to the chest, but that's a different conversation. The biggest benefit, in my opinion is the stretch. Because nothing stretches the chest like a fly. Presses don't really stretch the chest as effectively. You kind of get limited by the shoulder. The angle is so much more effective in terms of stretch position or stretch on the pack with a fly. So if you're gonna do flies and you don't challenge the stretch, it's like, why do the fly? You might as well stick to pressing. It doesn't make any sense. So go and get that stretch. And in my opinion, sit in the stretch for a good two or three seconds, like when you're doing your dumbbell fly or your cable fly, whatever, get in that stretch, hold for two or three seconds, then come together, Watch what happens. Watch what happens to your progress. Next up. This one's one of my favorites because it's counter to what a lot of people believe. And we'll explain why. If you're going to rotate your hands on a fly movement, okay, the way that you should rotate your hands to activate the chest more is to rotate your palms down is to bring the index finger and thumb together, not bring the pinky together. So when you look at the. Where the Pec attaches in the humerus. Because it attaches a certain point, if you want full contraction, you actually internally rotate the humerus to make that happen, not externally rotate. Now, you'd see some people will do the external rotation thing and bring the pinkies together. It's not giving you more of a chest squeeze. What you're doing is you're pushing your pecs with your triceps.

[Justin Andrews]

Because some guys will be like, oh, I feel it more from that. Yeah. What you feel is you feel your, your biceps are squeezing your, your tits together. That's what you, that's what you feel. It's not your, you're not contracting better there, buddy. So, yeah, I mean, I always know when someone's either an advanced lifter or they understand biomechanics. When I see, you know, a young, young guy doing, doing chest flies and he's internally rotating because you rarely see that. You either see a fixed position, which is fine. Yeah, totally fine, or you see the, you know, the, the pinkies together. Especially on the dumbbells. You'd see guys doing that a lot. But every once in a while you might catch somebody do that, like, oh, okay. He's either one advanced or, you know.

[Adam Schafer]

And test this out. What you'll feel when you're doing this, like with cables, like do cables. And as you come together, bring the thumb and index finger. You'll feel more especially across the upper chest activation of the pecs, because that's where you're getting more of those muscle fibers from that rotation. Now, it's a small technique, but again, we're talking about techniques that you can use in the gym to maximize growth. And if you're already doing flies, you're already doing cable extra. Even a machine, for example. You know, a lot of machines, the pec deck machines will have the handles like this. Sometimes they'll give you the option to grab a top handle. Yeah, Try that and see what happens when you face your palms down. It's actually a greater connection to the pecs. Lastly, when you're putting together your chest workout, the order that tends to develop the most balanced, well developed chest goes like this. Go. Upper chest exercise, mid chest exercise. If you're going to do a lower chest exercise, here's where you put it. And then do your isolation.

[Justin Andrews]

I love this and I love talking about it because I actually don't think it's popular. I think the most common order is to do something that's middle first and then somebody goes to upper or even upper being third.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

And I always loved starting with my incline bench and I think this is just because most people have a much stronger flat bench and so they don't.

[Adam Schafer]

Want to go lighter on that and.

[Justin Andrews]

They don't want to have to go lighter on that. But I've made the case on here many times that I think for overall chest development that the, the, the incline chest is already, the incline press is already superior. And if I want to get good at that, I want the most energy towards that. We've talked about this before. Like you want to get good at an exercise, you put it at the front of your workout. This is actually a. Probably a small tip that can make a big difference in a lot of listeners right now is just how many of you have ever ordered your chest in this order where you're. You start with incline. Yeah, just go start with incline for a while. And I bet you see improvements just by doing that because most people use most their gas for flat bench so they can say they lifted more weight when you'll get more value.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. I remember you telling us when we first met Matt, you said there was a point in your lifting career and I don't know if it's when you became pro or before you became a pro where you, your goal was to get your incline as strong as you're flat.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And you saw huge changes.

[Justin Andrews]

Huge, huge. That was on my road to pro. So it was when competing, when I was already competing and I'm on the road to getting my pro card. And that was just kind of like a year long goal of putting a lot of emphasis on that. And it was the, the most developed my chest had ever been. And they were neck and neck. I still had a little bit better.

[Adam Schafer]

Which leverage wise, biomechanically, you have a flat, you should be able to press.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. So I still, yeah, I could still squeeze out a little bit, but it was close. I was, I was able to move 315 on incline and so I was probably doing 350, 375 on flat at that time. But close. I mean, very rarely do you see guys that close. And I was, I was that close. So made a huge difference.

[Adam Schafer]

A good, by the way, good exercises for this order would be like an incline incline barbell press, a flat barbell press, a dip. I love dips for lower chest, especially.

[Matt]

For that range of motion.

[Adam Schafer]

Same for you. And then isolation would be either a flat fly or a cable fly. I think is great. I know some people like decline bench. I really don't like decline bench. Yeah. If you compare it to dips, it just doesn't come awful.

[Matt]

It feels weird.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Matt]

It's just not as.

[Justin Andrews]

It's like. It's. It's the. The least beneficial part of the dip. So what makes a dip so good? Okay. How deep you are.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And that you. We just talked about the benefits of, you know, the muscle growing the muscle from the stretch position. The dip gives you a. A very good deep stretch position on the chest. Better than any other press does. So that's what makes it so great. It's like a press, but you're in that position on that dip bar. It actually makes it almost feel like a stretch from a fly. That's why it's so great. And you can load it so you can put weight on it. So it's awesome. If you do decline bench press, which a lot of young guys love to do. It's the word. It's the worst part of the dip. It's the end. It's so. It's like you're not even getting. You're getting. It's. You're. It's. You're hitting at the bottom.

[Matt]

Funny you guys ordered it this way because intuitively I did exactly that. I did like the incline bench. There's a flat bench. And then I did, like, ring depth for really low. And so I'm getting the stretch, but I'm also getting that low position.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. And you missed that on a. I'm not a fan. I don't. I don't. Is there anybody that. So a big fan of the. The decline bench.

[Adam Schafer]

It's become less popular, thankfully. But back in the day, it was really popular.

[Justin Andrews]

It was really popular because you can load it. Most guys that could bench two plates could do three plates on decline. And so you love to be able to put way more weight than you could do on a flat bench on the decline. But as far as the benefit, it doesn't even come close to decline.

[Adam Schafer]

Machine presses are still popular because you can load the hell out of them. The ones where you're leaning back and you're doing this real short range of motion. Not a fan dips. If you flare your elbows out and lean forward and get that stretch.

[Matt]

So much more stretch.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh. I mean, it's a. It's a great exercise for the chest. Of course, there's a way to do it for shoulders or for triceps, but it's a great one. But yeah, in this comp. In this order. This is a really good order to give you nice. Well developed now.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. So You've gone through the five right now. So if we. If we had to rank them as, like, the number one tip, then two, then three on here. What. How would you. How would you order these?

[Adam Schafer]

Number one would have been the last one for me. Upper middle, lower isolation. I think that would be the most important one.

[Matt]

I agree.

[Adam Schafer]

Out of all of them. Next, I would say would be the stretch Y movements.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Third would be fight the negative and fourth would be. And drive hands together. And then rotating the palms will be last.

[Justin Andrews]

I thought. I was hoping we would argue.

[Matt]

I know we all.

[Adam Schafer]

We all the same.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I mean, to me, I. I just said it when we were talking. I bet most people listening to this will get a huge benefit just by making incline bench their first thing. Because it's just not common. It's not common, and it'll give you the biggest bang for your buck. So I definitely agree with that. And then the. The next. The number two, you said is the negative portion. The negative portion, which 100, I think.

[Matt]

So it was number three.

[Justin Andrews]

Also. Also, the argument I make on this podcast all the time is that nobody does it.

[Matt]

Slow negatives.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, Slow negative. Concentrate on resisting it. Like, so that's. That's easy. One and two. The other ones are probably.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. I like the stretch for three.

[Justin Andrews]

I do too.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, focusing on the stretch. Driving the hands together would be four, and then five would be rotating the palms down.

[Justin Andrews]

I wanted to have beef with you about it, but I don't. I think that's a. I think that's.

[Matt]

At first, you put the negative.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, to be honest with you. Look, here's the deal. When we all agree, that's because it's most true. Right. When we debate.

[Matt]

Tried all these.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. There's a lot of nuance, but I think with these ones, it's pretty clear what the. The biggest impact is going to be.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it's also, I. We. We can't help but think of our experience. And you've also ordered them. What you. You are thinking of, like a hundred people you've trained that want to build a chest. Like, what are the areas where you've been able to impact maximize? Yeah. Like, I've never had someone who's like, adam, I just can't grow my chest. I'm like, oh, we just got to internally rotate. We're just going to internally rotate those hands. They're like, dude, that's never happened. But 50 more. But I have. I have got a client. Client who I go, how often do you incline? They're like, oh, I don't really incline that much. And I'm like, okay, we're gonna start incline. They're like, holy blows your mind, right? So I think that's why we're all in agreeance is everybody's thinking the same thing, is like, okay, I've never had anybody who I've done the internal rotation or what was the other one? That was probably our last, what was our fourth drive?

[Adam Schafer]

Hands together.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that's a cool cue, but again.

[Adam Schafer]

But 1 and 2 are good.

[Matt]

That's a technique.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. 1. 1 and 2 are game changers for the listener right now. So if 1 and 2, you're not doing you implementing that and I guarantee you within months you'll see a difference in your chest.

[Sal Destefano]

Got some questions here. The first one, does a big bench press equal a big chest?

[Justin Andrews]

Not necessarily, no.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm evidence of that. You know, when I was younger, when I was younger I focused so much on, I like, look, I like muscle development, but I like strength more. Okay. It just, it's just more exciting to me. And so for most of my lifting career, up until I would say my mid to late 30s, okay, it was all about strength. How much can I bench press? And I have really strong triceps and shoulder, especially triceps. And I got my bench press significant. I got it up there. I had a 375 or 365 at one point, definitely over 300 pounds. And my chest always lagged. It wasn't until I decided later on in my lifting career as a full on grown adult, where I changed my technique and I moved away from maximizing leverage and weight to feeling the chest and the best chest development I ever got throughout my all my lifting has happened in the back half, in the far back half. I'd say the last quarter of the time I've been working out.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I mean the other best way to explain this or show this as an example without picking on yourself is look at the greatest power lifters that exists in the bench and compare him to your average bodybuilder. Yeah, I mean you're, you're your best power lifter in chess. He's gonna have a chest like you don't put a thousand pounds and it'll.

[Matt]

Build somewhat of a chest.

[Justin Andrews]

But I mean it's nothing compared to any pro bodybuilder. Like if you're a, if you're a pro bodybuilder, your chest development, I guarantee is better than the best benchers.

[Adam Schafer]

It won't hurt though. Having a good bench won't hurt you.

[Justin Andrews]

No, no, no, no.

[Adam Schafer]

I think especially in the first three years of training, it's important.

[Justin Andrews]

No, I, I agree, but it doesn't necessarily equate to a big.

[Adam Schafer]

No, especially because it's such a complex lift and the way you, you know, drive through the, you know, with your feet in the ground, tuck your elbows, keep your chest real high, maximize leverage. You could really take.

[Matt]

I've seen some wiry guys put up some numbers. Yes, that always blows my mind. But yeah, there's definitely a lot more to building strength, I think sometimes. And you know, really building size and hypertrophy is a kind of different pursuit.

[Justin Andrews]

It is. I. And I'm the opposite of you, Sal. Like, I didn't care strength thing. And I actually. And I. And my chest was one of my weakest points I had. I talked about this. I had an uneven chest. I was very weak. You've heard me tell stories of when I first started in high school and my buddies. One was three guys, two of them spotting me, one guy pushing my shoulder down. I was a mess. Right. Couldn't even put a plate up. And I, I built a pretty good chest without having to lift crazy weight. I got up to lifting weight later on where I could bench decent, but I was never a really strong bench presser and yet developed a pretty good bench through a lot of the techniques that we're talking about.

[Sal Destefano]

How many sets per week should I do for chest?

[Adam Schafer]

You know, the studies on this are quite interesting. It's probably because it's very different. Yeah, 12 to 20. About 12 to 20 per week. Now, does that mean less than. That's not going to grow your chest? No. A lot of people, six sets a week, you'll get great chest development, especially the first few years of lifting, if you're consistent with it and you have good workout programming. Also, there's a lot of people that 12 sets is too much. You're going to overtrain, you're burnt out because you're stressing your life, your diet isn't great or you just haven't trained in a long time. And then there's some people where they go up upwards of 30 sets or 40 sets per week. But most people is probably around, I would say between nine to 12 is probably going to cover like 85%. What do you guys think?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, this is a really interesting conversation because I've seen such a wide spectrum on this. And then I have my own experience, too. That's. That's also evolved and changed what I mean, by that is like, there's periods of time where I know I was doing 25, 30 sets of chess before, and I'm. My volume of chest workouts right now is hardly anything now. What's cool is that once you've built a really solid base of a chest and strength, the amount to. To keep that, like, so for me.

[Matt]

To maintain it, you go way down.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, way down. Way, way down.

[Adam Schafer]

Remember what it took to build it?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

It's a different story.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it took. It took. It felt like it took so much to build it. And so there you tend to go through like. So there's like. That's what I meant by there's this wide range. It's like, it felt like I needed to do so much volume when I was younger.

[Matt]

You need all that context to really answer that question. I would think so, yeah. In terms of, like, where they're currently at.

[Justin Andrews]

Where are you at in your career right now? Yeah, yeah.

[Matt]

How much of a beginner are you?

[Justin Andrews]

How.

[Matt]

Well, how much time under the iron have you. Have you had before? And like, what are you currently doing? And then we. We can kind of craft and alter it from there in terms of, you know, better diagnosis. But yeah, it's. Because sometimes it's just a change of format, you know, like, you could. You get a lot of output in terms of, you know, changing the tempo or changing the. The acute variables around.

[Justin Andrews]

What I will say though, and I like Sal's answer of most people to be like this, 9 to 12 is what. What I can tell you is, is a mistake. Somebody listening right now that thinks they're the person who needs 25 sets probably also is doing 25 sets of a bunch of other things too. And. And they're. They're in a plateau because they're applying so much volume to everything. And they're not.

[Matt]

They just want to keep adding on top of the volume.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. And so subtracting somewhere El. So be careful. If you're that person who thinks you need 25 sets to just to. To build a chest at all, and you're doing 25 sets of almost everything. This because I fell into that cat that mess too, of like thinking just more, more, more, more of everything.

[Matt]

Sure.

[Justin Andrews]

And honestly, most people, your first probably five years of lifting nine to 12, maybe 15 is going to build one hell of a chest, especially if you. If you break those sets up. Right. I think 15 done over three days is far better than 15 in one workout for this situation too. So, yeah, I would want to Know more information to be sure. But just be careful because I think a lot of time there's other variables that make people think they need a certain amount when they don't really.

[Adam Schafer]

And I'll say the average person right now who's, you know, kind of getting started otherwise healthy for the next three years, if you just did six to nine sets per week, they know three sets twice a week or three sets three days a week for your chest, you could progressively progress pretty consistently for at least a couple years without having to add any more. Don't get caught in the trap of, ooh, this is working more. More is going to work better. That almost always isn't the case.

[Justin Andrews]

Sometimes it has been, especially if you know that all the research points to the best way to progressively overload is volume over time. Right. As far as building muscle, you naturally do that just because you're stronger. Yeah, just because you're stronger. So if you're just doing six to nine, like you're saying, and I'm getting stronger, volume's going up. Volume's already organically going up. I don't need to add another set on top of that. I'm going to ride that wave as, as long as I can until that six to nine sets makes a plateau and I'm no longer anymore and I've peaked strength, say for months. Okay. Now maybe I'll add a set or two and then. And then keep doing that. Don't rush right away to keep adding sets like probably a lot of kids do.

[Sal Destefano]

Should women worry about chest training?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. You know, what's interesting about this is I used to get. Women would tell me this all the time, like, I don't want to work out my chest. I don't care about developing my chest. First off, there's function there. It's a muscle. It's important for the health of the shoulder girdle. It's important for overall, you know, just health. But, you know, developing your pecs, you're not going to get these massive, like, women in, period, end of story. Unless you're like a pro bodybuilder with very rare genetics and on steroids, you're not gonna get these massive pec muscles. But if you do train your chest, what you'll find is it'll give you. It'll lift the breast a little bit.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And it'll actually make you look better.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I've never had a woman I've trained train chest and say, I don't like the way it looks. They almost all say, this looks Straight. So I never skipped chest training with. With female clients.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, I have. I don't ever recommend it and I won't intentionally go program that unless somebody asked me or say they don't want to. I've had a lot. A lot of women before that have.

[Matt]

That's the only case. Yeah, I've had.

[Adam Schafer]

Sometimes that can cause.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, not only that, but also here's the logic behind that. We all. We're already in this closed position of, you know, forward shoulders, forward head. And then you also get breast implants. And so that kind of tightens and brings everything forward. One of the things the doctors that you're in, anyone who's ever had somebody who's gone through that surgery, you're in this kind of rolled position for a good six weeks or so after that surgery. And then you have to slowly work those muscles in your back. And very few girls I've met do the work necessary to get their posture back towards those of them stay rolled forward. I've met a lot of girls that end up doing breast implants and they have, yeah, they have this rolled shoulder. Shoulder because they didn't put the kind of. And it should be physical therapy. They don't. They don't really prescribe it, but they should go through.

[Adam Schafer]

But what's happening there isn't what you. What a lot of them say. So it's not that you're tightening the chest and causing your shoulders roll forward and exercise muscle properly through full range of motion will actually give you more range of motion. So it's not going to tighten. But what happens when you have under the muscle implants contracting the pecs really hard can move the implant and cause the capsule where the implant sits inside to. To become wider. And so what some women get with under the muscle implants is if they're really benching heavy and hard over time is they'll go to lift and their implants will move. Shifted shift. That's the risk.

[Justin Andrews]

I've always looked at it as, it's less about the chest, it's more about the weakening of the upper back.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So what it's like I'm not worried about chest pressing that client because that I'm worried that it's going to shorten up or tighten their chest. I want their back strong. So the. The amount of volume that I probably would have put, say, let's say for a male client towards their chest, I just add that volume to their upper.

[Matt]

Back to try and get into optimal posture.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So that's kind of the thought process. And then if I get them there, then I'm like, yeah, we can include chest or if they don't care, I don't care. But that's the only case. But I would never just not do that with somebody unless they specifically asked or had a situation like that.

[Sal Destefano]

Are push ups a good chest exercise?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, they're not bad. They're not the greatest chest developing exercise in prison. They're awesome, but they're not, they're not bad. You know what they're good for? They're good for trigger sessions. Volume, getting a little pump. So what I mean by that is not too damaging. Oh yeah. Days off in between, like, and you want to add more volume to your chest. Let's say you could rep out 50 push ups all at once. Do 10 push ups three times that day. That's it. 10, 10, 15, three times a day. Get a little bit of a pump, add that to your routine, watch what happens.

[Justin Andrews]

I love them a lot more than I used to and I think that's. And it might be, this might be me getting older or something. I don't know. Movement. Yeah, it's like we, we lack movement so much. And you know, obviously I would love my clients and myself to get into my garage and get a full lift every single time. But it's like sometimes just like between like a commercial, watching the super bowl the other day and just like, you know, just get down there, mess around with my son and bust out 25 push ups like that. It's like just so good. And if you can create those habits as with your clients to do that, man, I, I just think that's, there's tremendous value and it's just a signaler.

[Matt]

Yeah, it's great. It's a great little tool that you can just. And I do it with my son all the time. We get competitive with it and we just drop and get, get push ups in and it's like, well, see, it's not too damaging. You can really build volume with that. Quickly those numbers go up and real quick, exciting for new, you know, new people to fitness. Because it's like you see that strength gain almost immediately.

[Adam Schafer]

It's.

[Justin Andrews]

And it is, it's so simple to get the average person to just kind of do it. It reminds me of kind of how we, the way we communicate walking today versus how we used to. Like if, if you ask young trainer me too, I'm like, oh, push ups aren't going to do. You're going to build a chest. You need to low you know, I would be like that. But what I think now, it's like, it's such a easy way to get somebody into moving and doing active stuff and so walking and push ups and body weight, squat stuff. Like, man, I'm sorry. I love that. And I wish if you had a.

[Adam Schafer]

Desk job and every other hour you did a body weight exercise for three minutes. Like how exceptionally.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, I wish our culture was better about this. Like I, I wish we all grew up where like teachers did it with school and like, it's just like a thing that everybody did. Like, can you imagine?

[Matt]

Yeah, just like you just push ups.

[Justin Andrews]

Everybody, everybody like just did that before school in the middle of the day. And like it was just. I mean, it would just be so good for us to do that. And so for those reasons, I'm a huge fan for. In the pursuit of. I'm trying to build the most ultimate chest. Like just doing that. We're gonna need some more stuff, but I mean, it's good for you.

[Sal Destefano]

Any chest training advice for those with shoulder pain?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, you know, if you work on shoulder mobility and stability, you should be able to get to the point where you can do pretty much any chest exercise. Common areas to look at are, Is your mid back strong? Are you able to pin your shoulders down and back as you're bench pressing? Do you have strong stabilizers? We often refer to some of the stabilizers like the rotator cuff. Right. The muscles that attach to the rotator cuff. Do you. Are those, you know, your supraspinatus infraspinatus muscles. Are those strong enough to stabilize your arm while you're pressing? Does your scapula move freely with your upper arm or is it kind of stay pinned down or out like shoulder mobility movements like handcuffs with rotation is great. Wall circles are really, really good. Stick dislocates are really good. All of that are great ways to really improve. I mean, I have almost 100 record with people coming the times when it's difficult when people have like a real limitation. Like I had this removed or this bone was, you know, whatever resected.

[Matt]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

But I have almost 100 record with clients. We had. Oh, I can't bench because of shoulder pain. And we would, you know, so long as nothing was torn, I was able.

[Matt]

To get a lot of it. Is, is mobility related in terms of stability and really creating that, you know, your muscles responding to force and keeping them in place and you know, to, to go through in the drills and make sure. Yeah. You're not protracting too much in your lift because that's going to be problematic. You're going to end up with impingement. And you know, just in terms of setting yourself up correctly too and getting a little more retraction there like before performing a heavy lift, like all these things matter because now the force can evenly distribute and it's not going to stay in those concentrated areas where you're going to get pain.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm so glad this was a question because I feel so passionate about this that if I could go back and do this episode, this goes number three.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I, I think that even if you don't have shoulder pain, reinforcing the joint stability in your shoulder, limiting factor is such a limiting factor for the average gym bro who wants to build his chest that this goes number three for me.

[Matt]

You can hit a wall, like predictably.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. And I wish somebody would have told me that. So if I could go back and redo this episode, this makes it to the top five points and it goes number three for me. Like, I literally think right now, if you're listening and you don't put any attention towards shoulder mobility and stability, which same thing, right. If you don't put any emphasis there, you start incorporating that. Watch your bench go up 10, 15 pounds that, that by itself. So I think that this is that important. Even a shoulder pain, you have to, I mean that's like a no brainer. But even if you don't have shoulder pain and you're listening to this, it.

[Adam Schafer]

Will limit you if you don't focus on it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. You've got to do strong enough. You know, it's funny, if you don't have shoulder pain now, you eventually will if you don't put that work in as you get stronger in your chest. So may as well start practicing it now because you'll get the benefit, you'll reap the benefit from it and you'll need to, no matter what, down the road.

[Sal Destefano]

Can you Please compare dumbbells vs barbells vs machines for chest?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, so you know, barbells are great for a lot of loads. There's a balance component involved, which means some stability is involved. Dumbbells even more so than barbells and they also have a greater range of motion. Machines are good for isolating, concentrating and creating less damage. Like a chest press on a machine to failure is going to cause less or require less recovery than with a barbell or a dumbbell. But you know, when people ask this question, it's like, you know, versus, versus, versus. But really, it's like use them all. Most lifters are probably better off. 80% of their workouts are going to be free weights. 20 machines, this can change depending on the lifter. But they're all good. There's no reason why you have to pick just one.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean I think, I think barbells and dumbbells should be the, the cornerstone of your chest workouts. And then machines a great like I think you broke it down good with a 20. 20 is machines. And the way I always liked incorporating machines was based off of like. So we, we talked a little bit about ideally how you broke your chest up right in the nine to 12 sets over three days. Right. The way I use machines is let's say I went a little too hard on Monday and Wednesday on my chest Friday I might do machines because I'm still recovering. So that's like, that's a perfect example of like how, and let me tell you, you lift long enough, you're going to overreach, you're going to have time or you're going to think that that wasn't that damaging and it's going to do more damage than you than than you expected. And so I love incorporating machines. When my chest is still feels like it's recovering from the heavy dumbbell or barbell work that I've done before. Great time to slide in machine work. And so I think that organically just kind of makes 20% when you, when you, when you program it like that.

[Adam Schafer]

100% how I used to do it. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is at Mind Pump. Justin, I'm at mindpump. To Stephano and Adams at mindpump.

[Sal Destefano]

Adam, thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps and above Maps Performance and Maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review. On itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support. And until next time, this is Mind Pump.