2551: Can Being “Too Healthy” Be a Bad Thing?... & More (Listener Live Coaching

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth Episode 2551: Can Being “Too Healthy” Be a Bad Thing?... & More (Listener Live Coaching) Release Date: March 12, 2025

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Introduction

In Episode 2551 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth, hosts Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, and Justin Andrews delve into the provocative question: Can Being “Too Healthy” Be a Bad Thing? This episode combines insightful discussions with live coaching sessions, addressing listener questions on fitness, nutrition, and sustainable health practices.

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Main Discussion: Can Being “Too Healthy” Be a Bad Thing?

The hosts explore the concept that excessive pursuit of health and fitness can sometimes lead to detrimental outcomes. They dissect various aspects of overtraining and extreme dietary practices, supported by scientific insights and personal experiences.

1. Too Much Muscle

Sal Di Stefano opens the discussion by questioning if excessive muscle mass can compromise health:
"You can have too much muscle... when you chase it too hard and too far, the means to get that muscle are so unhealthy that it's not a good idea."
[04:55]

• Health Implications: Building significant muscle mass can strain the body if achieved through unhealthy methods like excessive supplementation or steroid use.
• Genetic Anomalies: Some individuals naturally carry more muscle without adverse effects, distinguishing them from those who attain it through extreme measures.
• Lifestyle Sacrifices: Professional bodybuilders often sacrifice relationships and overall well-being for muscle growth, highlighting the potential personal costs.

Justin Andrews adds personal reflections:
"When I loose keeping... I lost 10 pounds of muscle but feel healthier."
[07:36]

2. Too Lean

Sal Di Stefano asserts that excessively low body fat can be harmful, especially for women:
"Carrying a really low body fat percentage can be devastatingly unhealthy, causes hormone disruption... if you get too lean, you'll die."
[08:03]

• Women’s Health: Women at around 13% body fat are often deemed ripped on social media, but such levels are typically unhealthy, disrupting hormonal balance.
• Men’s Health: Men maintaining around 6% body fat also face health risks, including diminished testosterone levels and overall hormonal imbalance.

Justin Andrews emphasizes the rarity and impracticality for the average person:
"Most people do not have to worry about being too lean... you're not going to get too lean."
[16:24]

3. Too Strong

The conversation shifts to the risks of excessive strength training.

Sal Di Stefano explains the escalating risk of injury with increased weights:
"The more weight that you can handle... the risk of injury increases as your technique veers away from perfect."
[20:18]

• Technique Deterioration: Lifting extremely heavy weights can compromise form, leading to injuries.
• Support Systems: Highly strength-trained individuals often rely on supportive gear, indicating potential imbalances and increased injury risks.

Justin Andrews compares it to overpowered cars:
"If you crank the horsepower, sooner or later, you're going to twist the frame in half."
[20:38]

4. Too Much Endurance

Extreme endurance training is scrutinized for its long-term health impacts.

Sal Di Stefano notes that extreme endurance athletes may suffer oxidative damage and heart issues:
"Extreme endurance sacrifices longevity and health... these extreme athletes are dying at 70."
[22:31]

• Long-Term Health: Ultra-endurance activities can lead to lasting heart and bone damage, reducing lifespan despite high fitness levels.

5. Eating Too Perfectly (Orthorexia)

The hosts discuss the pitfalls of obsessive dietary perfection.

Sal Di Stefano defines orthorexia and its negative effects:
"When everything absolutely has to be perfect and measured... the stress associated with that alone is a net negative on your health."
[24:12]

• Mental Health Impact: Obsessive eating habits disrupt mental well-being and relationships, despite appearing healthy on the surface.
• Misconceptions: Social media often showcases the extremes of dietary perfection, misleading individuals into unhealthy standards.

Justin Andrews connects orthorexia to social media pressures:
"The one that's most commonly linked to the lean point you made is typically suffers from the eating tour."
[25:33]

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Related Health and Fitness Perspectives

Beyond discussing the dangers of being "too healthy," the hosts emphasize:

• Individual Variance: Each person's physique and metabolism differ, necessitating personalized fitness and nutrition strategies.
• Sustainable Practices: Balancing strength, mobility, and proper nutrition is crucial for long-term health and fitness.
• Educational Approach: Instead of adhering to extreme standards, educating oneself on sustainable health practices leads to better outcomes.

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Listener Live Coaching

The episode features live coaching segments where listeners call in with specific questions related to fitness programming and personal goals.

1. Caller: Dion from Canada – Reverse Dieting vs. Bulking

Dion's Inquiry:
"Differences between reverse dieting and bulking. Can you incorporate mini cuts?"

Justin Andrews explains:
"Reverse diet is a bulk... A reverse diet sounds better to somebody who's trying to boost your metabolism and trying to lose weight."
[62:10]

• Reverse Dieting: Gradually increasing calorie intake to boost metabolism while minimizing fat gain.
• Aggressive Bulking: Rapid calorie increases to maximize muscle gain, accepting higher fat gain.
• Mini Cuts: Short periods of caloric deficit during bulk phases to manage fat gain and psychological fatigue.

Sal Di Stefano adds:
"Pushing strength is always a good thing, but at some point, the returns start to diminish and the risk increases."
[23:01]

2. Caller: Kelly from North Carolina – Reverse Diet Journey and Body Composition

Kelly's Story:

• Background: 44-year-old female, shifted from 127 lbs at ~30% body fat to 142 lbs with similar body fat.
• Challenges: Weight and body fat plateau despite increased strength and muscle.
• Goals: Lean out further for health and aesthetics, enhance strength for caregiving responsibilities.

Sal Di Stefano commends Kelly:
"You're healthier and stronger... You've gained 12 pounds of lean body mass."
[70:51]

• Advice: Maintain patience as her body adapts to higher calorie intake, focus on strength gains over aesthetic changes.
• Body Fat Percentage: Sal reassures that with increased muscle, her current body fat is healthy and not a concern.

Justin Andrews recommends:
"Trust the process... follow Maps Performance 15 for continued progress."
[73:08]

• Program Recommendation: Transitioning to advanced programs that focus on performance, mobility, and sustained muscle growth.

3. Caller: Adam from Massachusetts – Shifting Fitness Business Focus

Adam's Situation:

• Background: Former lawyer, now full-time fitness professional.
• Current Roles: Teaching group classes across multiple studios while managing one-on-one clients.
• Challenges: Transitioning from group fitness to building his own personal training business.

Justin Andrews advises:
"Use social media to build your business... capture leads through email lists and nurture them."
[100:03]

• Business Strategies:
  • Leverage Podcasts and Content: Utilize Mind Pump resources to educate and attract clients.
  • Email Marketing: Offer free guides and consultations to build an email list.
  • Consolidation: Focus on fewer locations to manage one-on-one training effectively.
  • Value Addition: Provide consistent value through education and personalized coaching to convert leads into clients.

Sal Di Stefano emphasizes:
"Consider consolidating your locations to better manage client relationships and business growth."
[106:35]

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Conclusion

Episode 2551 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth offers a comprehensive exploration of the potential pitfalls of overachieving in health and fitness. Through expert discussions and real-life coaching scenarios, the hosts highlight the importance of balanced, sustainable practices tailored to individual needs. Listeners gain valuable insights into optimizing their fitness journeys without falling into the traps of excess, ensuring both physical health and mental well-being.

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Notable Quotes with Speaker Attribution

• Sal Di Stefano:
  "You can have too much muscle... when you chase it too hard and too far, the means to get that muscle are so unhealthy that it's not a good idea."
  [04:55]

• Justin Andrews:
  "Most people do not have to worry about being too lean... you're not going to get too lean."
  [16:24]

• Sal Di Stefano:
  "The more weight that you can handle... the risk of injury increases as your technique veers away from perfect."
  [20:18]

• Justin Andrews:
  "If you trust us now, and I've built that with you, then I want to take you to the next step that will probably blow your mind."
  [86:14]

• Sal Di Stefano:
  "You're healthier and stronger... You've gained 12 pounds of lean body mass."
  [70:51]

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Recommendations for Further Listening

• Icons Mentioned: Christina Hathaway from The Mindset of Matter, who coached Kelly's fitness journey.
• Future Episodes: To delve deeper into balancing muscle growth with sustainable health practices and business strategies for fitness professionals.

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Connect with Mind Pump:

• Instagram: @mindpumpmedia, @mindpumpsal, @mindpumpadam, @mindpumpjustin, @mindpumpdoug
• Website: mindpumppodcast.com
• Training Protocols: mapsfitnessproducts.com

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Disclaimer: This summary is based on the provided transcript and aims to capture the essence of the episode. For comprehensive insights and the full experience, listening to the original podcast is recommended.

Transcript

[Sal DiStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Justin Andrews]

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[Justin Andrews]

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[Sal DiStefano]

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[Doug]

Auto Parts.

[Unknown]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump Mind Pump with your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews.

[Sal DiStefano]

You just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. You guessed it, this is Mind Pump. Today's episode we had live callers call in and we coached them on air. We helped them with their fitness on air. But this was after the intro. Today's intro was 51 minutes long. In the intro we talk about fitness, health, diets, studies. It's awesome. By the way, if you want to be on an episode like this one, email us your questionive mindpumpmedia.com this episode is brought to you by our sponsors. The first one is Legion. Today we talked about their creatine gummies. They taste amazing. Made with creatine monohydrate, the kind that is used in studies that has been shown to benefit almost everything but including and especially muscle building, strength building, fat loss and cognitive performance. Go check them out. Go to bylegion.com that's B Y L E G I O N.com mindpump use the code mindpump for 20% off. This episode is also brought to you by Paleo Valley. Today we talked about their savory flavored bone broth protein. Make soups with it. Make gravies with it. Use it to add vegetables to add protein to your rice. With the savory original flavored bone broth protein. It tastes delicious. Go check them out. Go to paleovalley.com mind pump on that link. You'll get 15% off. Also, the March special is here. Maps Performance and Maps Performance Advanced are two best athletic performance mobility workout programs. If you like working out because you love fitness because you love performance, because you love moving like an athlete. You like strength, speed, agility, power. You're going to love those two programs, both of them right now. For 50% off, go check them out. Go to mapsfitnessproducts.com and then use the code 3-50 for the discount. All right, here comes the show.

[Justin Andrews]

T shirt time.

[Unknown]

And it's T shirt time.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, schnizzle.

[Unknown]

Gissingard dogs. My favorite time of the week.

Oh, yes, indeed it is. We have five winners this week. Three for Apple Podcasts, two for Facebook. The Apple Podcast winners are. Wolf Daddy 2005. Oh, that's you, Doug, W.C. mcAlpine and Drew Griffin. And for Facebook, we have Jerry B. Ingraldi and Jeremy Myers. All five of you are winners. Send the name I just read to iTunesIndPumpMedia.com includes your shirt size and your shipping address, and we'll get that shirt right out to you.

[Sal DiStefano]

Wolf Daddy, can you be too fit and healthy? In other words, you get so fit and healthy, you're no longer fit and healthy. Yes, it's true. It sounds crazy, but too much of a good thing becomes a bad thing. And I'll start with one of them. You can have too much muscle.

[Unknown]

This is.

[Justin Andrews]

You must be feeling convicted right now.

[Unknown]

Daily affirmations.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, there's. Some of these are going to be obvious, but I wanted to start with one that I think gets people like, huh?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

You hear us on the podcast all the time talking about the value, the health benefits, like just the improvement in quality of life benefits of building muscle. And for 99.9% of people, trying to build more muscle. And building more muscle is a great thing, and the data is very clear on this. Strength and muscle mass, but strength in particular are strongly connected to health. Longevity, insulin sensitivity. It's a great thing. But when you chase it too hard and too far, the means to get that muscle are so unhealthy that it's not a good idea. And there may be some evidence to show that. Two Being too heavy with two.

[Justin Andrews]

I was just gonna say. I wouldn't say just the means to getting there. Even just having that on your frame. You've experienced this, I've experienced this. Like your sleep and your breathing and stuff like that. There's like. I mean, you could be.

[Unknown]

We've had people on the podcast that have a hard time breathing.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah. Some of our friends that are jacked.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're like, in between every.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, I'm guilty of that. If you go back far enough on the podcast, memorabilia used to give me shit when I was competing. I told him to stop breathing so heavy into the mic, you know, and you do it. You don't even realize you're doing it. I do. This is a good conversation because I've thought about this a lot. Right. And I've openly shared on here when you've watched me go through all these changes, physique wise, since we started this podcast. And I think I remember talking about when I was at some of my lowest volume of training and I was kind of doing mobility stuff, I'd lost a bunch of muscle. But telling you guys, hey, I feel the healthiest I've ever been in my life, yet the average person looking from the outside would be like, oh, no way. When he was competing, he was this guy.

[Sal DiStefano]

I do think a big part of it is, and I don't know how much of a part of it, but I think a big part of it is, are the methods employed to build that much muscle. In other words, you could have somebody else.

[Justin Andrews]

That's what it took to get there.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, yes, you could have somebody who's very muscular, but they've got really muscular genetics and they exercise and they eat right. They don't push anything too crazy, and they're going to be really healthy versus someone else that it may require them to push diet.

[Justin Andrews]

Take steroids.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. Like, do all the supplements and be obsessive about everything and, you know, never miss a workout. And then diet is a big one.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a fair way to look at it. I think that's actually an easy way to measure. Sal is like, if you. If you're super jacked, but you got there through eating when you're hungry, training consistently in the gym, you probably are just a genetic anomaly. And you're somebody who actually could carry that on your frame. But if you had to do what I had to do, which was wake up in the middle of night to drink a shake, had to, you know, taking anabolic steroids, boundaries of what your.

[Unknown]

Body'S normally telling you.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, there's no. There's no way I'm a representation of health at that point. And I'm very aware of that. Like, there's. I don't think that I ever fooled myself to think that I'm in pursuit of health. You know, why I'm doing this. It was a complete, complete, you know, body obsession of how far can I go with this? I do want to say, though, there. There is. There is a little positive to this, and I've I'm experiencing it right now and we kind of talked about it a little bit when we were going for our walk right now today, which is I've built so much muscle that I probably don't need on my body that it's like when I lose keeping.

[Sal DiStefano]

A decent amount of muscles like easy.

[Justin Andrews]

So easy.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And you know, oh, I lost 10 pounds of muscle and then I go regain like 25 back real and it's like, oh, then I haven't trained for like a month. It's like, yeah. But still I look like I'm more muscular than the average person. And so there's something to be said about. And I'm not. This is not me encouraging people to, to push them.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. It might not be a net positive but the positive is for you to keep a relatively in comparison to the average person. Muscular frame is easy.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Because it's so well within muscle memory for you. Some people make that argument with. And I don't, I don't, I mean maybe from a muscle perspective, I don't agree with it from a health perspective but you'll hear people say, you know, getting really big with anabolic steroids will make it easier for you to stay big later even if you get off of them type of deal. And I could see that, I could see the value of the muscle memory. However, the potential hormonal long term effects might require you to be on hormones for the rest of your life at least a replacement perspective. But you definitely like. I mean I guess I don't need to say this but we use the example, the extreme example. Like pro bodybuilders don't have the best health. They're the most muscular athletes in the world. They don't have the best health. I think that part of it is the amount of size that they carry. Although again, I don't need to say this, you know a 260 pound or 300 pound bodybuilder might have the weight itself is probably better being muscle than body fat but the means by which they achieve that are really unhealthy. Even the diet alone, like the force feeding and just the massive amount of calories required in many of those cases isn't so great. And then also just the lifestyle like the sacrificing all the healthy things in life like relationships or I have a friend of mine who he's married and he's, he was a pro body but he competed and he's like yeah, I don't think I could ever compete again because it's so destructive for my relationship. Because it's just so selfish.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Unless your partner is doing the same thing. Only ones I see where they're actually like still together to make it work. But then it's like this codependent kind of thing where they have this, you know, obsession together.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

That's super unhealthy. I mean, I think, I think that's less interesting to talk about. I think what's more interesting to talk about, Sal, is, is the. Because that to me is obvious. I, I think even the average listener is just like, yeah, no, no, bodybuilders are healthy. I don't think anybody is going like, what, they're, they're not healthy. Like I.

[Sal DiStefano]

Do you remember the song?

[Unknown]

There's some people like that.

[Sal DiStefano]

You remember Pumping Iron, the funniest thing. Live Forever. That's the song that they're playing while flexing. I'm like, this is ironic.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Right.

[Justin Andrews]

So, I mean, I really think most people. What I think is more interesting to talk about is actually a majority of your fitness influencers.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That are just body obsessed. Jacked also. And, but not extreme. But. So I actually think they're on that edge. I think we have really distorted in just the last two or three decades what healthy muscle, what healthy muscle looks like on people. And, and by the way, this is not me pointing the finger. I'm very aware that I'm part of the, I'm very aware that I was on that side of that stuff and did all that. But I think we've definitely skewed the per. I mean, great. I mean, look at the, the, the, the movies and the videos of, you know, muscular bodies just in like the 50s and the 60s and stuff like that. Like they wouldn't even, they wouldn't even turn a head. They would never, they wouldn't even. The best one wouldn't even make the magazine cover today. Were you like, like every influencer kid looks like what a pro bodybuilder looked like, say 30 years ago. That's kind of crazy when you think about that. And that's become the image of health. I mean, we have these, you have millions of kids following all these influencer people who are, are body obsessed and way over muscled for what is considered healthy.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And I think there is an individual variance with that too. Right. I think that there are some people that just carry more muscle mass naturally and they could be bigger. And other guys, like, I know for me I carry at least 15 pounds too much muscle on my frame. That would be considered healthy. And as I pushed this for years. I mean, I've been doing this for, you know, 20 something years or 30 years. 30. Over 30 years, actually. And you know, my body fat percentage is lean. Right. But I think I'm carrying too much size. I'm at this weird place where I got to change things to lose a little bit of muscle mass to be healthier. Um, so this is definitely the case in many, in many cases. And the reason why I'm saying this, by the way, but again, 99.9% of people, you don't have to worry about this. You'll never have to worry about having too much muscle. You can go try and build muscle all you want. You'll never have to worry about it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, but I, so I think it's, I think it's a good conversation for the person who's following the person.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's it. Because a lot of the people that communicate health from muscle are people with too much muscle.

[Justin Andrews]

That's.

[Sal DiStefano]

That the people communicating this the best.

[Justin Andrews]

That's, this is why I think this is such a great conversation to have to talk about. Because, and, and I love that it coming from someone like you who can admit that, like, I'm not trying to say that I'm the perfect embodiment of health. And I think that's the problem is that a lot of people that aren't also are presenting this message of I'm super healthy. It's like, you know, you know the kid that we shouted out recently, he's not a kid, he's a grown ass man. But Michael Smock, I think if I'm pronouncing his last name, he has the, the, the Higher up podcast that's blowing up right now. You know who he is. He, he, he plugged us a long time ago. Then we talked about his podcast. He's like reached number one. He's been doing so good. I was just going back and forth at DMS with him because he worked a sponsorship deal with Celsius and he's just getting lambasted because, Because Celsius is in the health. Yeah, because it's not a healthy drink. And I'm saying, you know, I was just cheering with him saying, you know, this was one of the things that I, the guys and I talked about long before we were known that we wanted to be very real with like who we were, our daily hat, like not try and present this perfect image of health and share with people. And by the way, I'm not promoting it saying that I think this is a Healthy drink. And I've admittedly talked about Diet Cokes. And I think that's the important part of the conversation is not. Isn't it per se, like, we're better than the next person. It's just admitting that and not putting that out there like it's a healthy choice. And I'm like, if you just stay consistent and honest like that with your audience, you'll be okay. I said, if you put this image out, though, like, you're this. This, you know, shining example, doing everything right. Yeah. When you're really not. And. And a lot of these people's, you know, North Star compass for that is their body and the way they look. And it's like, no, you're already way off the.

[Unknown]

It's so funny because I was just kind of joking. You know, I'm doing the series and I was kind of shooting. And it's funny because you get in your own zone and you just, like, say things. You just let it fly. And I caught myself saying, like, because we always talk about, you know, when you're doing the unilateral training, like, to start with your weaker side and this and that and the other. And I was just like, yeah, I'm gonna go against my own advice because I just don't want to do that, you know, and, like, you know, stuff like that just kind of comes out. It's like I go against my own advice sometimes just because of. Just I'm an asshole. Like that. Like, I. Sometimes I'll do things. And I know it's like, oh, this is an optimal or ideal. This is what I want to do, though, so. But it's just being honest. Like, I'm not always going to make, like, the perfect choice, but at the same time, like, I know kind of where all that ends up and where it lines up and, like, where my priorities are.

[Sal DiStefano]

Not to get off topic, but this is what makes a good trainer. A good trainer or a good coach is the honesty. A trainer or coach who presents themselves as the epitome of fitness or the epitome of health probably isn't or probably has a dysfunctional relationship with those things, because at the end of the day, we're all human. The next point is, can you be too lean? Absolutely. I don't think I need to argue this one too much. But carrying a really low body fat percentage, especially for women, can be devastatingly unhealthy, causes hormone disruption in a big way. In men, it crushes testosterone. In women, it crushes all their hormones. And if you get too lean, you'll die. There is something known as essentially body fat. You need some body. We've demonized body fat so much and we've glorified, shredded so much that a woman walking around at 13% body fat. Women are paranoid is considered fit. Right. You see a woman with 13% body fat, here's what they look like. They have some striations, they have visible abs on Instagram. They look, oh, wow, that girl's ripped. 13% body fat. For the vast majority of women's unhealthy, regardless of your fitness and diet and lifestyle, just your body fat percentage is unhealthy and you need to get it up. In fact, when I would train women like this, in fact, we had a caller recently with this. My advice is we got to get your body fat percentage.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's part of the reasons why. Your reasons why.

[Justin Andrews]

Cut back on your training, increase your calories, let your body fat go up 3, 4%.

[Sal DiStefano]

It'll balance out your hormones, your, your.

[Justin Andrews]

Body fat, and you'll be healthier, you'll be stronger, your sleep will be better. All these markers of health.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Will improve.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Right away from that. But you're right, I think that we've, we've, we've positioned the people and I think social media has a big part of that because there's something about that. You see that and it's attractive and it looks cool, but if someone is carrying that around year round, it you. And this is for the guys too. A guy that walks around 6% body fat year round is not healthy. No, it's just not. And even, even if they try and make the case, oh, I can, I'm leaner set. The amount of, of discipline and sacrifice and way of living, they have to be in order to be that percentage year round also. So you're out of balance somewhere, you know what I'm saying? Like, you definitely am not. You're not, you're not balancing relationships and other things with your family, if that's what. Because I know what it's like to be obsessed like that and do that and what it, what it requires. And it's not a healthy thing to portray to everybody else, being super honest.

[Unknown]

About it and you're taking pictures ahead of time, we're gonna piss.

[Sal DiStefano]

And to put it differently, to put it differently. Of course, there's always genetic variants. There are people who are genetic anomalies who can walk around leaner and have great health, but for the most part, a man at 6% body fat could Change nothing except get his body fat percentage up to 9% and would see improvements in health. A woman walking around at 12% or 13% body fat, leading a fit lifestyle could simply increase her body fat up to 18% and she would probably notice improvements in health and quality of life. So that's kind of where this is.

[Justin Andrews]

And I also think that again, going back to why this conversation is so important, what's even more important than you getting that person to agree with that statement right there? It's all the people that you have no idea that you're misleading and, and are you're setting up for failure because there's a bunch of people that are watching that lifestyle and think that that's where they should be. I mean, how many, how often do we get a caller who we have to tell them like you're kicking ass? How many times have we said that? How many times have we had a live caller who is calling in because they think they're doing something wrong or they need to do more or they're discouraged by the results. And we're going.

[Sal DiStefano]

And they're excellent.

[Justin Andrews]

And we're going. Susie, you're killing it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You are doing so good. You were so like we have to say that. But why is that? But it's because they have this image of this example.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

It's distorted when that person is actually doing really good because they still think that where they need to go.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. When it comes to leanness, we've said this before. There are more millionaires than there are people with six pack abs. And in gyms this is already a self selection bias of people who work out. A six pack is rare in a gym. Forget about the real world. It's actually even rare in a gym. Okay. The next one is, can you be too strong? This one, this one sounds crazy, but there comes a point. There comes a point. So all exercises, every lift you do, everything you do that requires strength, there's a risk factor. Okay. And the risk of injury increases as your technique veers away from perfect. Okay. So if you move 1% away from perfect, risk of injury goes up a little bit. You move 50% away from perfect, risk of injury goes through the roof. Okay. That the risk of injury automatically goes up with every half a degree off. Perfect. The more weight that you can handle in relation to what your structure can actually imbalance creases. Right. So if I squat with 200 pounds and my form is a little off. Perfect. Not going to hurt me. I squat with 500 pounds and my form is a little off. I'll probably get hurt. So this is when it gets a little crazy. And this is why injuries start to pop up on these highly trained athletes who are doing incredible feats of strength. It's not because they don't have good technique. They're well trained. They have the best technique.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's that, the weight that they're moving for their structure. Yes. It just starts to.

[Justin Andrews]

This is where I've always loved the Dragon drag race analogy that we talk about, where it's just like, you know, if you got a 200 horsepower car, the suspension doesn't have to be the greatest, but that 200 horsepower becomes 400, then 600, then 900, then it's a thousand horsepower.

[Unknown]

So you're really cranking that torque.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Then sooner or later, if you do, if you don't put the work in to reinforce everything, you twist the frame. That's right, you twist the frame in half. And that's, that is the example of the, the athlete or the person that is so myopically focused on getting stronger. Getting stronger. Getting stronger while not pursuing those other things. And that's what happens. And then eventually, and it normally starts with aches and pains and, and, and inflammation and things like that. And then they start strapping up and wearing all the wrist guards.

[Unknown]

Elbow lifting, Right?

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Unknown]

All the different, like, you know, the attire they start wearing and all the different fitness aids and things they strap up in. And it's just to keep going as far as they could possibly stretch themselves strength wise. Meanwhile, like the entire support system is like holding on for dual life.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And now this could be true for anyone that you're, you're, you're too strong for your support system. Becomes more true the stronger you get where you got to be very careful. I mean, I've. Especially for experienced lifters. So a lot of people have to worry about this, especially the first three years of training. You train properly, train different planes of movement, have good technique. Getting stronger is always a good thing. But at some point, the returns you get from increased strength start to diminish. And what is more important to pay attention to is risk. Like, for example, I saw this with a few years ago with my deadlift. I hit a PR and deadlift. It's my strongest lift. And I remember I hit 605, which for me was a PR and I remember thinking, wow, I should go higher. But for what? I'm not going to get all these crazy benefits from adding 50 pounds or even 100 pounds of deadlift. But my risk of injury is going through the roof. It's totally not worth chasing that. In fact, I could get the benefits of getting 100 pounds more on my deadlift by not doing 100 pounds more on my deadlift by doing other exercises and changing my technique and tempo and all that stuff. So you can. By the way, this is true for. And we'll get to the next one which is too much endurance. All performance when it becomes extreme sacrifices health period. End of story. And you could look at the longevity of any sport and what you'll see is sometimes it's better than the average person, but sometimes extreme sports have a worse longevity than even the average American. Yeah, you, you'll see all the time these extreme endurance athletes who are dying at 70. Oh, it's like what happened.

[Unknown]

Yeah, look at, look at football players.

[Justin Andrews]

After they full player life especially is like 56, bro.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, average.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Hella low.

[Unknown]

It's bad. And to the, to the too strong point, like I do think that that's why, you know, I've changed my idea of like having wrist straps, having a belt, having you know, these, these sort of other helping, you know.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Aids.

[Unknown]

Because if I can't lift it, if I can't like have that kind of support and structure, then I feel like I haven't earned that.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's.

[Unknown]

It's not balanced to where I can, I can support.

[Justin Andrews]

It's a natural limiter.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's a natural limiter.

[Justin Andrews]

It's a natural limiter. It's very similar to what Sal was talking about with the too much muscle. If you have to use peptides, steroids and force fe eating to get a certain amount of muscle, it's unnatural. If you have to use all kinds of lifting aids to get to a certain level of strength. It's not natural. And so allowing your body's natural limiters is, is probably the best path towards any of these pursuits without. Oh, how do I know I'm going to overdo it? Well that's one way to know is don't add a bunch of like tools that help you get 10, 20 more gains. Don't force feed yourself 20 more or take anything on in addition to that to try and push that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And endurance is like this as well. The extreme endurance performance athletes, you see oxidative damage, you see hearts affects their bones when they do analysis of hearts of extreme endurance athletes, which you think they must have the healthiest hearts. They actually have aged and damaged hearts because of the wear and tear. The extreme performance. I mean Extreme anything sacrifices longevity and health. And it's true for any physical pursuit. And then lastly, could you eat too perfectly? Yeah. Yeah. You start to. When you look at overall health, your state of mind, the relationships around you, your quality of life all contribute to longevity. When you're orthorexic. Right. When everything absolutely has to be perfect and measured and weighed and I gotta avoid every single negative potential chemical and everything has to be a specific way. The stress associated with that alone.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Is neg. Is. Is a net negative on your health. So you can. And we've met many orthorexics and they're plenty in our space. And you meet these people and they are not healthy. They may eat perfectly on paper, but they're not healthy.

[Justin Andrews]

By the way, this is the one that's most commonly linked to the. The lean point you made. The one that is lean year round on Instagram is typically. Suffers from this.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Suffers from the eating tour. I do want to say this because I guarantee we've pissed off a ton of people and there's, you know, I'm sure stuff is going to get clipped. Is 90% of you don't have to worry about any of this. If you're sitting there listening to this and you're eating potato chips on the couch, you couldn't run to the end of your driveway. You or. Or lift up your. Your girlfriend. Like, you're not this person. Okay. So most people are not too strong. Too much endurance.

[Sal DiStefano]

This reminds me of. You guys ever get that?

[Unknown]

Dude, that girlfriend's a big girl.

[Sal DiStefano]

You guys ever talk to, like, some guy, like, you go to a party and you meet, like when your wife's friend's husband or whatever? Oh, yeah. You lift weight. Yeah, I don't. I don't lift weights because I get too big if I lift weights. Yeah, yeah. Shut up. You're not gonna get too big.

[Unknown]

You look like Arnold.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, it's not really, like, big so fast, but I do.

[Justin Andrews]

So the conversation is fun because, you know, maybe you. You. You are pursuing getting in shape and getting fitter and stuff like that. It is easy to fall into one of these traps or to follow people.

[Sal DiStefano]

Who are in this category.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Sal DiStefano]

So now you're taking health advice.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Sal DiStefano]

From an unhealthy.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. And that's what I important. This is less about. Oh, my God, is that me? Am I too strong? This is less about that for you guys. You know what I'm saying? It's more about pay close attention to who you're following, who you're listening To. For health advice. Who is setting the bar.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

For you. And. And this, what you think is this great example of. Because I can't tell you how many times I've had family and friends, you know, who. Who tell me who they think is like, oh, I follow so. And so I'm like, that's who you get your health fitness advice from? Really? So it's more about that than it is. You're probably too muscular or too late.

[Sal DiStefano]

I get messages like that I have a family thread and they will just send me the fun. Hey, Sal, I started taking this supplement. I'm looking at like deer antler or something or sea boss. Like, oh my God, you do know I know this stuff. Like, can you please ask me?

[Justin Andrews]

It blows my mind. You get it? Because I know I get it, but I don't come off like you do. I would. It blows my mind that even your family does it. So I feel better about.

[Sal DiStefano]

What's that saying?

[Justin Andrews]

Never be a prophet in your own.

[Sal DiStefano]

In your.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Your own town or whatever. No, it's definitely true.

[Sal DiStefano]

Speaking of supplements and stuff. So we, we had Alex Kiko on the podcast recently and he's the. Was he the performance coach, I think he's called, or the. Something like that. Anyway, he's. He's. Find his Instagram. I'll give him a shout out. He's really smart guy. Really smart guy smart guy. He's on that. That kind of gray market gray area. He gets into like all the weeds with all the stuff. And he was making the case for really high doses of creatine.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, like he's justified me snacking on this.

[Sal DiStefano]

Is that why you're eating?

[Justin Andrews]

Right? You just made me think about it and. Oh, I have a few more.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, so. By the way, you know what's funny you say that so because Legion has them in the. In the gummy form or whatever. It's so easy to eat more creatine with that because it tastes like candy. He's got the sugar crystals on it too, or whatever. But anyway, I've been experimenting. So there's data that shows that 10 grams of creatine probably has cognitive benefits, which is double what the data.

[Unknown]

It's always been five grams.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, it's always been five grams is what they've recommended. Right. So he, he's all. He says that the data shows 10. He says what he likes to tell people. What's his. What's his Instagram there, Doug?

[Unknown]

Yeah, it's at Alex Underscore Kickle K.

[Sal DiStefano]

I K E L. The prep coach. That's him. So he says what he does with his clients is he pushes creatine until they notice gastro issues, and then that's the point that it stops them at.

[Unknown]

That's the threshold.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. So. And I mean, and he made a good point. He. He made me think about this a little bit, that so many functions in the body operate better with healthier mitochondria, with more ATP. I mean, all of them. Right? Yeah. So in creatine provides. That provides more of that energy. So. And there have been studies on high doses of creatine, 20, 25 grams, showing there's no negative benefits. So I'm experimenting.

[Justin Andrews]

What's cool about this one is that it's. It's relatively inexpensive. So, you know, I'm saying it's an inexpensive product, that if you wanted me to double my dose, it's not like it's costing my pocket.

[Sal DiStefano]

I will say this, though. You will get gastro distress if you take it all at once. I already did this.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

Spread it out throughout the day. I made the same mistake.

[Sal DiStefano]

Did you?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

I think it's like 15 grams. Yeah, it was tight.

[Justin Andrews]

I don't think I've ever felt that from creatine before.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, because you're taking five at a time.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, right now I am, but I do. I remember the good old days of, you know, loading in the cell tech all at once. Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

You didn't get. You might. Might not have paid attention.

[Justin Andrews]

I know. You might be right. That's a good.

[Sal DiStefano]

Back in those days, that's a good.

[Justin Andrews]

I just kind of want to push it and see what happens. What happens if I have, like.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, no, I do. So what I'm doing is like 3 or 4 grams at a time, and I'm doing it, like, many times a day. So I'm just taking about.

[Unknown]

Okay.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'm taking right now about 10 to 15 grams a day. And I'll let you guys know what I think or what I feel from it. I'm expecting more of cognitive benefits from it, but it's. It's too early.

[Unknown]

That's what he sold me on.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

I was again, the methylene blue, and then it was nicotine. So again, these are all just things I'm like, oh, interesting. Like, more cognitive benefits. I'm always trying to think of how to optimize.

[Sal DiStefano]

Did you like the methylene blue? Do you like the way that feels?

[Unknown]

It's interesting. Like, I know you guys, at one point, it felt like a bit of.

[Sal DiStefano]

A Like a lull from it. I don't like it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So I actually, I like. I didn't feel that. I felt a bit of an energy boost and then it was. It was temporary and it was gone. Not a huge impact.

[Sal DiStefano]

It made me feel edgy and I took a low dose and I felt okay. Then I got edgy and then I kind of came.

[Justin Andrews]

You're also really sensitive. Like you're not a caffeine drinker right now, Justin. And I feel like I. I don't feel edgy from it, but I. I did feel the come down. Yeah, but it makes your pee blue.

[Sal DiStefano]

Which if you're not. If you're not ready for that. Yeah, that's. Oh, what's. What's wrong with it? It's a fun little. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Addition party trick or whatever.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I mean, I think you. You have one of two choices. It'll either make your mouth blue like crazy, which I think is worse.

[Sal DiStefano]

If you do. If you do the drops.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, if you do the drops, the. The ones you sausages or whatever, or you take.

[Sal DiStefano]

It stays blue for a while. Yeah, I remember you guys.

[Unknown]

You guys tried snow cones.

[Justin Andrews]

Your teeth. It turns your teeth all. I mean, it's like. It looks worse than, like drinking like some red wine.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, it's like. You know why it's trending, right? Robert Kennedy. Someone took a video of him squirting methylene blue into his water.

[Unknown]

No.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I was wondering.

[Sal DiStefano]

He was on a flight and he likes. I heard.

[Unknown]

Yeah, it was somebody on there that was like promoting methyl and blue. And I was like, oh, wow. Because I even think it was like Mel Gibson brought it up in terms of like some cancer studies.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I was wondering why it got so popular so quick.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's been popular in the biohacking space now for, I'd say, probably.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. That's what, five years? That's what. I mean, we. It wasn't the first time I'd heard of it, but it's. Everyone seems to be talking about it right now, and so I thought that was really like, something. Did something come out? Like a study? Or is it really just because the rfp?

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I mean, it's. It's. Listen, the data on it's very interesting. I think there's an individual variance with how you feel on it and stuff. I probably need a really low dose, but it's. It's an MAOI inhibitor, natural. It helps the body produce more energy and cycle through more. Or produce more ATP.

[Unknown]

That's gotta be the weirdest one. So far. Because it's a blue dye.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

You know, how the hell did they figure out that that had some health benefits?

[Justin Andrews]

It seems kind of weird, too, considering we're going through this thing where we're. We're getting more aware of dyes being bad in our diet. Then all of a sudden we're taking this method. Horrible blue. Great. Yeah, that seems.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I don't think. I don't think methyl and blue is the blue that they use often in food. I think they used it for some other stuff, but I don't think it was.

[Unknown]

Yeah, sure.

[Sal DiStefano]

I don't think you're gonna go like blue candy. And it's methyl and blue.

[Justin Andrews]

Ah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Give it to your kids.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, Father.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, great.

[Unknown]

Dye your jeans.

[Sal DiStefano]

Anyway, so I gotta ask you guys. So tomorrow, as of the recording of this. But yes, here. There he is right there, squirting two. It's very clearly methyl and blue. There's nothing that looks like that that you're putting in your water. So. Okay, so question for you guys. As of the recording of this. So when this airs, it'll already happen, but tomorrow is Lent, which is the Catholic practice of sacrificing something in the pursuit of, like, sharing and. Or experiencing some of the suffering. Right. So Jesus, abstinence suffered. So you're gonna go through. And the traditional way was. I think you fasted and did a bunch of stuff. But now people like, I'll give up this one thing or whatever.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So I thought I'd include all of you guys in mine.

[Justin Andrews]

What are you doing?

[Sal DiStefano]

So I don't. I don't necessarily identify.

[Unknown]

You got a problem?

[Justin Andrews]

He already tried with me. Didn't work.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I got you guys. We were in the bathroom, like, somebody give it up for lunch.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm evangelical, so I'm already saved, dog. That's what I told him I did it for.

[Sal DiStefano]

I did it to Doug, too. He's like, I've never given anything up for that. I'm like, oh, she's just going to continue that.

[Unknown]

So what is it? What do you nominate?

[Sal DiStefano]

So. So, no, I don't identify as Catholic, but I love some of the practices because I think the roots are really interesting. I do. I think that's really cool. Right?

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're practicing. You're trying to experience and give something.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm a huge fan. I talk about.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I've talked to people about this, about the practice, and some people mess it up by saying giving something up that benefits them. So I'm going to give up. You know sugar because they want to get leaner. It's like. Well, you're supposed to suffer. That's the point.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Something you're addicted to or you really don't like to give up.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And you're like. You're doing it because you're purposely going to suffer.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And you're going to give it to God. Of course. Okay. So I'm going to do something that's going to make all of us suffer.

[Unknown]

Oh, man, that's happening now.

[Sal DiStefano]

No. I mean, no, it's all joking aside. It's for me, but as I was thinking about it, I'm like, these guys are going to suffer, too. So I'm gonna give up caffeine. I am not gonna have any caffeine.

[Justin Andrews]

I thought you were already off caffeine.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I haven't been off caffeine.

[Unknown]

You barely even.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, that's broke, bro. Jesus is not impressed.

[Sal DiStefano]

Listen.

[Justin Andrews]

It'S like Jesus, just roll.

[Sal DiStefano]

Hey.

[Justin Andrews]

Hey. You just got the biggest eye roll from Jesus right now. So hard. 25 milligrams.

[Sal DiStefano]

I died on the cross.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm not even gonna think about that on a cross. You gave me 25 milligrams. 25 milligrams from.

[Sal DiStefano]

I have 400 milligrams a day. Listen. I have 400 milligrams of caffeine a day. I take it before every workout.

[Justin Andrews]

What? You're doing 400 always?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, I've been doing 400. That's the most.

[Unknown]

Because you do pre workout.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

Yeah. Okay.

[Sal DiStefano]

Pre workout.

[Justin Andrews]

I didn't know you were taking that much. I know, Justin and I.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I haven't gone. I haven't gone purely without caffeine. Like a hundred, 100%. For like. Like where I do it for a prolonged. For a long time. I would suffer with this one a long time. And so I anticipate a little brain fog irritability.

[Justin Andrews]

When does it start?

[Sal DiStefano]

Tomorrow. So tomorrow I'll be in here recording the podcast with no caffeine. It's all horrible. It's gonna be terrible. Sorry.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Unknown]

Tomorrow.

[Sal DiStefano]

The next episode that comes out sucks.

[Justin Andrews]

Can you wait? We haven't even. Give me any time. I can't carry that episode.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'll be okay. I think I'll be okay if I.

[Justin Andrews]

Can'T carry the heavy science one. Dude, you get one more day.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'll take some other stimulants.

[Unknown]

Sneak it in his water.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I'm gonna go without it. And. And I. I'll do cold shower.

[Justin Andrews]

Seven days.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's 40.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, it's 40. 40 days. Why did I think it was only seven? Red juice, dude.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's what I'm gonna do for sure.

[Justin Andrews]

That'll help. That'll help mitigate that.

[Sal DiStefano]

But I'm going. I'm gonna. I'm gonna cut it out completely. And the last time I went without caffeine for a long period of time was when I was doing Jiu Jitsu. And I did it because Jiu Jitsu was at night. And so I had to go do practice at 7. Taking caffeine at night wasn't such a great idea. Plus, it made me out of breath with that kind of training. And I'll never forget being off caffeine. There was a period. I don't know how long it took. I'm thinking it was like, week three. I remember feeling so good. So I hope that happens.

[Justin Andrews]

You know how. You know why I'm so resistant to this? Because I feel like.

[Sal DiStefano]

To me. Yeah. Doing this.

[Justin Andrews]

No, no, not you. I mean, me, because you. Yeah, it's because everybody's doing it right now, so I don't want to do it. I'm just. I just. I'm set, so. Such a bad reason, but it's so true. It is, dude. It's like. It's not like. It's not like. It's not like what you're talking about. I don't practice this something. I. I'm. I'm very aware of the things that I abuse or use or that I.

[Sal DiStefano]

You just can't do it on your terms.

[Justin Andrews]

Exactly. And I've already been like, okay, there's some things that I need to, like, cut out for a while, but it's like, oh, everybody's doing it. It's like, so you should do it now.

[Sal DiStefano]

Save your. Just save yourself out of it. You don't need a savior. You just become your own. Do it yourself. I'm just kidding. You do this often?

[Justin Andrews]

I didn't realize that you do this often. Yeah, I. I do. I definitely do this a lot. And I don't know if this. I don't know.

[Sal DiStefano]

You know, last Lent was a big one for me. That's when I broke my. My issues with lust.

[Justin Andrews]

Was that porn back then?

[Sal DiStefano]

It was. It was porn and. And, you know, doing my own stuff by myself.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, give up.

[Sal DiStefano]

All of it.

[Justin Andrews]

So, no, my point is. Is it now been a full year?

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, it's been longer than that. But that. That Lent was. Was gonna get weird now. But Lent was where I not only I had a voice, I had gotten you did a.

[Justin Andrews]

No fat porn is what you're gonna say.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes, I did.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay, that's. I'll help you.

[Sal DiStefano]

What?

[Justin Andrews]

I was like. I think I know what he said.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, no, no. Dutch rudder. Yeah. Sorry.

[Justin Andrews]

So that's. That was last year and.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. And it was a year since that. Yeah. Yeah. A whole year. Wow. Can I tell you something?

[Justin Andrews]

I don't even know what that's like.

[Sal DiStefano]

Huh.

[Justin Andrews]

I know you don't.

[Sal DiStefano]

Neither did I.

[Unknown]

Why you look at me like that? Speak for yourself. Of course not.

[Justin Andrews]

This is like a day. More than a day.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's. Most men you know.

[Justin Andrews]

Tell me the heart. I know that you don't. What is. What?

[Sal DiStefano]

The.

[Justin Andrews]

The journey of that? When was the hardest. How. That's a terrible word to use.

[Unknown]

When was the harvest?

[Justin Andrews]

Sorry, I didn't mean to do that. Doug, what was the most difficult period of that? And at any point did you feel like I'm.

[Unknown]

You're going to explode?

[Sal DiStefano]

This is going to get. This is going to get very spiritual. Okay. So if you're secular, whatever. But this is just when it got spiritual when I. Pornography in particular was a very difficult thing to break completely. And a lot of men struggle with. A lot of men don't talk about this, but this is a very difficult thing to give it. It's very hard. You talk to men about this and they'll tell you, especially if you get them to open up. Like, they just can't ever go away completely. So that was an issue for me on and off, on and off. And the reason why I wanted to stop before I ever became a Christian was because of the data on pornography. The data on pornography just kept compiling and showing that it just wasn't good for you. It wasn't good for. Your brain distorts the dopamine reward system. It's not good for relationships. It definitely creates lots of problems. It just does. That's. The data is very clear. There's no benefit to pornography.

[Justin Andrews]

Of course, the data. This is how anything gets you. You have to have the data to support it before you even accept or adopt.

[Sal DiStefano]

Now this. Before I became a Christian, I still couldn't stop. I would stop and then go back and then stop and then go back.

[Unknown]

That's the thing. I stopped the porn, but I still have a great imagination.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Unknown]

So it's just like.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's the same thing.

[Unknown]

It's still there.

[Justin Andrews]

Continue on. I want to hear. I want to hear this. I want to hear this.

[Sal DiStefano]

So. So when I. When I became. When I became a Christian, one of the first things I really prayed over was my issue with lust.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And he took it from me completely.

[Justin Andrews]

Like it was like an overnight thing. Or was it like a gradual.

[Sal DiStefano]

Really, like overnight? I felt. It's gonna sound weird if you're not Christian, but I felt the sin in it. Not the guilt, but the sin in it. It didn't do what it did for me before.

[Justin Andrews]

It lost the pleasure in it almost, or it lost the desire for it.

[Sal DiStefano]

I felt it didn't feel the same. And he took it from me. And so that was done. But I would still, like Justin, have my imagination here and there. And so Lent came around, and by that point, it had been months since looking at any pornography. And I remember going into Lent and thinking, can I give this up? Like, you know, that was since I was, you know, 13 years old. Right, right. And I. And I did. And I did it, and I was able to.

[Justin Andrews]

Wow.

[Sal DiStefano]

I don't think I did it alone. I think.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay, so now. Now share with the audience. What are some things you've connected that it's benefited you and your relationship and everything else?

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, everything better.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I mean, come on. Like, let's. Like, is. Is. Has it increased intimacy in your relationship?

[Sal DiStefano]

I thought that I'd be walking around, like, ready to go off at any moment. Oh, my God. How am I going to manage this? Not true. Not true at all. That lust, as described in spiritual practices, but especially in the Bible, grows the more you feed it. It's not like you need to feed it to keep it at bay. It actually grows the more you feed it. So what I experienced was not that. It was not like, oh, I'm losing my mind.

[Unknown]

It definitely takes away from intimacy.

[Sal DiStefano]

I actually found myself now. My connection with my wife is strong in that way. And I can lust after. I can lust with her.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And believe me, that happens. But I'm not like this, walking, you know, loaded gun all the time.

[Justin Andrews]

Anything. Anything surprise you, Anything that, like, you didn't anticipate would. Would come from it. And it was something that came from it or rewarded by it. Did you notice anything else?

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, I was surprised that I was able to do it, but I don't think I did it alone. That really surprised me. Me, I was like, you know, am I signing up for Totally. Am I going to fail? But I was able to do it. So that was last. That was last. L. Caffeine's going to be a hard one, but that one, I think was much harder.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, I imagine that one that would Be much harder.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Guys, this is. Listen, I, you know, I. I recently started a Bible study and the topic of lust comes up very quickly and very often. And men don't talk about it, but it is. We've talked about this before. The amount of visual stimulation and novelty available to the average guy with a.

[Justin Andrews]

Cell phone, I can't imagine being increased tenfold.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, hold on. The most powerful king 500 years ago didn't have that.

[Unknown]

I know.

[Sal DiStefano]

The most powerful king who could have anything he wanted, did not have access to the amount of novelty and insanity that the average 17 year old kid with a cell phone has.

[Justin Andrews]

House. I always, it is completely. I always think that I was so lucky that we didn't even have a computer in our house. Yeah. Growing up, I didn't get my first computer till I was in my 20s. And so I can only imagine if I was a teenage boy going through.

[Unknown]

That immediately where you went on.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you probably would. And I didn't experience that. I don't know what it's like. I don't know what it was like until. I don't. I didn't know any of that stuff. So I was so naive to that. You know.

[Sal DiStefano]

The average age of a child, the first, the average age a person first sees pornography on the Internet.

[Justin Andrews]

12 or 13.

[Sal DiStefano]

10.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, is it 10? Wow. I knew it was. I know.

[Unknown]

Freaks me out.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, dude, so.

[Justin Andrews]

They already did, bro. That's what I mean.

[Unknown]

Yeah, I know.

[Justin Andrews]

That's what that means.

[Unknown]

Well, yeah, yeah, it's out there.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's. It's very, very damaging. That's the secular data. So I'm gonna forget the whole like, you don't believe in it, sin or whatever. That's just the secular data. But it's a tough one. So I feel bad. I feel, by the way, for people like lust is a big deal. It's taken down empires. The most powerful men in the world in history have. Have put everything on the line because of lust. Presidents, kings, for a moment of passion, like for just for that. So this is like a very weak spot for men. And what we've done is we've sold pornography as a safe. You know, we've normalized. It's not.

[Justin Andrews]

We've normalized it completely. Yeah, you know, I mean, that's why. What was our guy? Buddy. I talked to him all time. I was just talking to him yesterday. Who came on the show. Yes, I really liked.

[Unknown]

It starts with S. Last name Sam. But I can't remember the first name.

[Sal DiStefano]

You remember?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, that's That's.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

We were just talking the other day. I mean, I just think he's got such a great message that going. It's growing too, and sharing that. Yeah. I mean, more and more young men probably coming forward about it. It's just, I can only imagine what this. This generation that grew up in that. And especially like, at least like now those of us that have young kids. I'm aware of it. So I. I'll be very, like, cautious with my son. Right. I'll be watching that. Where, man, if you, you know, grew up in the last, say, 10 to 15 years, you were in the middle of, like, parents not kind of being aware, not.

[Sal DiStefano]

Not really knowing the.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Not being. Not. Not being aware of it. What kind of really realizing how powerful it was now, I think a little. Not everybody knows, but people are more aware today because more people are. Are talking about it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And the data too, on when you talk to those experts like that the kind of. Of pornography that's being displayed now is becoming more and more violent and extreme as the novelty is wearing off. So.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it makes sense that if you go down that rabbit hole of addiction in that. That you just keep raising the bar.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's exactly what it's like. It's like a classic drug.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, right. That you just. This. Oh, that's doesn't work enough. 90 this. 90 this. 90 this.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's wild.

[Sal DiStefano]

I know.

[Justin Andrews]

That's super crazy.

[Sal DiStefano]

Pretty crazy. I. I got a study on changing the subject to Doug's delight, on reversing an aging heart. This is for elderly individual or people who are older. Really good news. Let me pull this up for you. But you can reverse the. An aging heart with pretty minimal amounts of exercise. Two years.

[Justin Andrews]

Wow.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. So a study by cardiologists at UT Southwestern in Texas Health Resources showed that regular exercise can reverse damage caused by a sedentary lifestyle and an aging heart. And they did. And this is for anybody who's 65 or younger. Exercising four to five times a week significantly improved heart function, improving or increasing heart oxygen intake by 18% or oxygen intake by 18%, enhancing the heart's elasticity by 25%. So people who were 60 who just led a completely sedentary life after a couple years of exercise, reversed it completely.

[Unknown]

Wow.

[Sal DiStefano]

From the heart, they said.

[Justin Andrews]

What type of exercise?

[Unknown]

I was just saying it was used.

[Sal DiStefano]

This was moderate intensity sessions, high intensity intervals and strength training. So it was a pretty balanced. Looks like a balanced exercise because I.

[Justin Andrews]

Bet a lot of people you. And you brought it up earlier in the podcast that you would think that the more you run, the better it would be for your heart. And that's not necessarily true how it is. You know what? I saw you guys. There's a. Did you guys. Have you guys heard of how. I think I wrote it down so I didn't forget what it was. Oh, yeah. Last Man Standing marathon. Look that up, Doug.

[Sal DiStefano]

I know there's a. Com. Isn't there a comment. Comedy show. That's.

[Justin Andrews]

That there's the Last Man Standing is a. Is a. Is a TV show. Is a TV show. There's a. It's Last Man Standing marathon. It's an ultra marathon. And it's like literally 100 miles. It's. It's like more than that. So if you don't stop until you can't anymore. Yeah.

[Unknown]

So literally till the last.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I heard a guy talking about it on a.

[Sal DiStefano]

Isn't it funny? It's so appealing. Some people.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, I know it's gonna be me.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Remember when we had Joe Decin on? He. He talked about the, like, his. His thing that he puts everybody through. And then I heard this one. I went, oh, my God. That makes that one look like a kitty race, like, show. Okay. It's a 4.2 mile loop in less than an hour. And it's. You just keep going until you can't go anymore. 4.2 miles. You have to run it under a certain amount of time or you're done.

[Sal DiStefano]

Last runner standing wins the race.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. And so you're literally like, good God. Could you imagine? The guy was talking about, like, how much damage was to his body for, like, months later?

[Unknown]

Everybody has rabdo.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely.

[Justin Andrews]

Could you imagine that? So do that. Read the. Read the quote. Like, what do you have to do at 4.2 mile loop in less than one hour? So.

[Sal DiStefano]

So that's the. That's the parameter.

[Justin Andrews]

That's the parameter. And then it's literally Last Man Standing. That's how it works. So you have to. So what is that time on that? On a 4.2 mile loop, you have to do in less than an hour.

[Unknown]

It's like a mile every 15 minutes.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Now I wonder what the. Like, how long did the last race take?

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it's considered an ultra marathon, so these guys are hitting 100, 100 miles or more.

[Sal DiStefano]

Wow.

[Justin Andrews]

Is that crazy? Oh, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So. Oh, my God. 50 miles.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. Holy, bro. Can you.

[Sal DiStefano]

He ran for 108 hours. That's. That's a.

[Unknown]

That's 108.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, could you run to death? You could almost run to death.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That would be like real close to that.

[Unknown]

You would think four something days.

[Justin Andrews]

I thought that was the most brutal thing I'd ever. I never.

[Sal DiStefano]

Wait a minute. So no sleep.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Unknown]

Do they refuel or anything?

[Sal DiStefano]

Of course.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah, they have a so. They have a so. Okay. When you run it, it. There's a certain time and the faster you run it, the more time you have to rest till the next time. So it goes on. I think it goes like on every. Every hour or something like that.

[Sal DiStefano]

So you could pause as long as you run it for whatever.

[Justin Andrews]

So yeah, I think, I think it goes on every hour or something like that.

[Unknown]

Hour and two minutes.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. So every hour to it. So if you get it done in 10 minutes, you got a 50 minute rest before you go to the next one. But I mean, again, no sleep. Yeah. You're just right back at it.

[Unknown]

Every hour, actually.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it's every hour. Right. So on every hour you got to run it and so you get it done and then you could kind of relax and rest.

[Sal DiStefano]

This competition's not. It's going to end because someone's going to die or something.

[Justin Andrews]

I swear someone didn't already when he was explaining it, I went, holy.

[Sal DiStefano]

By the way, this highlights something that humans physically are actually pretty exceptional at, which is just endurance. Yeah. Like, compared to almost any other animal we can outlast.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Yeah. What was the. Would you say the record was? How far?

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, it didn't say record, but that was the last time. Oh, no, you're right.

[Justin Andrews]

450 miles, 108 hours.

[Unknown]

That's what trips me out.

[Sal DiStefano]

I don't think I've. I've. I don't think I've ran that in your lifetime. In my entire life, I've ran that in my life. All cumulative.

[Justin Andrews]

I never heard of that before. Have you guys heard of that? I had never heard about it before. I heard him say it and then I had to look it up and I'm like, oh, I gotta tell the guys about this. This is so crazy.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, I gotta ask you, Adam, because I have. I wanted to bring something up, but I want to ask you first. How's. Okay. So Katrina, your son not feeling very good.

[Justin Andrews]

We got flu going on.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. So I got both of them down.

[Sal DiStefano]

So, you know, chicken soup and, you know, that kind of stuff. Broth, whatever.

[Justin Andrews]

Real good.

[Sal DiStefano]

So Paleo Valley had their bone broth. They made a savory version of it.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, the new. The new one.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. So I made some. I warmed it up, and it's delicious. It's savory. So you can make this. You could probably make it into a soup. You can add it to your rice. We've talked about this protein rice before, but it tastes like bone broth, like liquid bone broth with, like a bouillon cube or something in there.

[Justin Andrews]

So it's got the seasoning in there. This makes sense on how to use that now, because originally when I got it, I went, oh, gross. I would never just drink a cold shake like that.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, no, no.

[Justin Andrews]

But of doing it hot and drinking it like a broth or a soup.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. So you can make it into soups or stews. You could enhance gravies casseroles. You just add it, and what you're doing is you're adding 20 grams of protein.

[Adam Schafer]

Bro.

[Justin Andrews]

It's so funny. When I first. When they first sent it to my house, I just assume like, oh, like a regular protein shake. I'm like, so what I did to.

[Sal DiStefano]

Test, I tested it and I made. I. I microwaved. You know, I just warmed up some water, mixed it in some, and then I ate. I just drank it just to see what it was like. And. And it's. It's a really good soup.

[Justin Andrews]

This is great. I'll. I'll make some for Katrina and Max.

[Sal DiStefano]

Today, but I want to see some recipes. Like, like stews.

[Justin Andrews]

Great thing about it, Sal. Any.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's really good. I'm telling you guys.

[Justin Andrews]

Any. Any stew or soup that you would make, that could be the base.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, if you say it tastes like that, kind of like. I mean, that would make it perfect.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's really.

[Justin Andrews]

Imagine adding, like, little shreds of chicken and rice inside.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Be bomb.

[Sal DiStefano]

So there. So Paleo Valley. And I don't know how they do this. I'm not saying this just because they're. They're responsible. They're whoever's engineering the flavors. First of all, it's minimally processed. This is why I don't understand how they do this. I like to add all this. It's a very minimally processed. But their salted caramel. Unbelievable. Their chocolate, Unbelievable. This so good. Yeah. It's not like using a protein powder. It's like you're using a delicious bone broth. So I don't know how they're doing.

[Justin Andrews]

What a cool way to boost, like, a protein to a soup to make it a high protein meal.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. You can add vegetables to that. That's what I would do. I would make that boil some vegetables.

[Justin Andrews]

In there, like 4 ounces of chicken, shredded chicken in there, a little bit of rice and that. And that'll be like a killer, like chicken rice soup. I like that. That's super cool.

[Sal DiStefano]

Start your day off with high protein, healthy food that is easy. Check out meal one. It's oatmeal that has 30 grams of plant based protein, gut healthy probiotics, vitamin D3 and omega 3 fatty acids. It's oatmeal. Again, that's high protein. It tastes good and it's healthy. Go check it out. Go to creaturesofhabit.com MP it's K R E A T U R e s of habit.com forward/m p. As a mind pump listener, you're going to get 25% off your first purchase site wide. The discount is auto applied. All right, back to the show. This segment is brought to you by trainerwebinar.com trainers and coaches. If you want to succeed, you want to be better at what you do, you want to build a bigger business, a better business, go to trainerwebinar.com, totally free. Adam and I will teach you ourselves how you can build a better business.

[Unknown]

Our first caller is Dion from Canada.

[Sal DiStefano]

What's up, Dion?

[Unknown]

What's happening?

[Justin Andrews]

Hey, guys. How you doing?

[Sal DiStefano]

Good. How are you, man?

[Unknown]

Doing well, doing well.

[Sal DiStefano]

How can we help you?

[Unknown]

So I'll ask my questions first and then provide a bit of context, I guess, to kind of help help round it out. The questions kind of revolve around reverse dieting versus bulking and how to incorporate mini cuts through that process. I guess the differences between reverse dieting and bulking. So I guess if I'm going to be reverse dieting over a long period of time, say a year or so, is there any point during the reverse diet where I've progressed at ramping up my calories to a certain point where I can flip dip into a bulk or can I still maximize muscle gain through the process? Simply reverse dieting through the entire time.

[Justin Andrews]

You're technically in a bulk. Yeah, you're in a bulk when you're reverse dieting.

[Sal DiStefano]

So if you're reverse dieting, maybe, maybe your question is more like instead of doing a slow reverse diet, can I jump with a higher calorie jump to push gains? I guess. Is that, is that, is that more accurate?

[Unknown]

Yeah. Is it necessary to push higher or will a reverse diet still satisfy maximum muscle gain?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, reverse. Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, you're fine. Look. Okay, so here's the deal. There's A bit of a trade off. When you're really pushing calories for gains, would you gain more muscle by going beyond what would be considered a reverse diet? Because with the reverse diet, the goal is boost metabolism, minimize fat gain. With the bulk, it's maximize muscle, minimize fat gain. It's very similar, but some people would say, oh, a bulk is probably a higher calorie bump than a reverse diet. But, you know, here's the deal with good programming, I mean, could you get stronger with more calories?

[Justin Andrews]

Probably.

[Sal DiStefano]

And it's probably due to the calories. Would you gain more muscle? I don't know. Maybe. But along with it would come more body fat. I don't know if that's a, a good trade off necessarily. I mean, the way I bulk people is the same way I would reverse diet someone.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I have, I. We have more context here for the audience. So it says you're 180 pounds, you're 20 to 21% body fat, or 19 somewhere around there. So here's how I would do this with, with where you're at. If you go on an aggressive bulk, which is also a reverse diet too, but it's, it's considered more like where we're adding 500, 700 calories and you're at 19 body fat, we are gonna, we're definitely gonna put body fat on. You're gonna build some muscle, you're gonna get your calorie intake up, speed your metabolism up, but you're gonna put some body fat on. Eating that much of a surplus consistently, I'd much rather put you in a small reverse diet. Let's say 250, 300 calories a day increase. And what will most likely happen is you'll also lean out. And the reason why you'll also lean out by being closer there is in, let's say, a month's time, there'll be periods when you're actually kind of in a deficit and there'll be other periods when you're actually in a surplus. So someone who's at 19% body fat, what'll probably end up happening is you build, say, 5, 10 pounds of muscle, and then you also come down 2 or 3% body fat. Where if we go on an aggressive bulk, you're most likely not going to reduce body fat percentage while you aggressively bulk and that. And, and so maybe let's say you were a young guy who was at 9% and you've just been skinny your whole life, and you're like, I can't put weight on, period. I'm an aggressive bulk. That guy, guy, that guy who's at 9%. And I don't give a. If we go up to 14 or 15 in pursuit, in pursuit of building more muscle. I would do that. But where your body fat percentage is at, I would, I would, personally, I would prefer to do a slower, gradual reverse diet where I know that actually sometimes you'll probably be in a little bit of a deficit, especially as the metabolism speeds up. So. But, I mean, I'm sure you wouldn't be mad at me at the end of our, you know, programming where you're like, adam, I put on five pounds of muscle and I leaned out, you know what I'm saying? Because you, I'm sure you could afford to go down a couple percent body fat and wouldn't be mad about that versus if you were the really skinny kid who's only at. Who's always lived at 8, 9% body fat and always seen his abs but never been able to put any weight on, like, that would be a little bit different. I would be more aggressive with you. Does that make sense?

[Unknown]

Yeah, it does.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Unknown]

So subsequently, I've also heard Adam talk about incorporating mini cuts through these processes. So I had some kind of questions in regards to how to properly, I guess, implement that. Like, when should I start my first mini cut and then when I'm in it, how long should I be, I guess in relation to the reverse versus the cut portion and then how to get back out of it. Do I step back straight up to where I was at, or would I take a week or two and kind of ease back up?

[Sal DiStefano]

Or am I just.

[Justin Andrews]

You could go right back up. The primary goal. So if the primary goal is to bulk and build, we're going to spend most of the time in the calorie surplus and we're just going to have small interruptions of a cut. One week, two weeks top. So like, let's say I'm. I'm bulking for three, four, five weeks straight, interrupt it with a one week, maybe two weeks at most cut, and then go right back to the bulk, and I'll go right back to the calories. You don't get to ease back. I go right back to what was considered our bulk in that, in that, in that calorie range, give or take, and then just keep interrupting and I really. The way, like, like, how do I decide if I'm going to let someone bulk for six weeks or, or four weeks or three weeks? Mostly it's how they feel sometimes when you're and you've probably experienced this in both a cut or a bulk, where it just. You get almost like diet fatigue. You're like, oh, my God. Just eating in this surplus for week after week is just hard. It's like, you know what? When I have a client who's giving me that feedback, I'll give them a little diet break by going the opposite direction. By cutting them for one week, that appetite comes back up and they're like, oh, my God, I'm hungry again. Great. Let's go back to the bulk. And so think of more. Less of the science of what are we. What's gonna build the most muscle. It's more the psychology of. You know what, man, I'm just so tired of stuffing my face for three, four, five weeks straight. I need a little bit of a diet break. Let me put on. And that one week cut, you're not gonna lose muscle. You're just gonna.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's.

[Justin Andrews]

It's just gonna kind of reset how you feel as far as your appetite. And then I like to put you right back in the bowl. Does that make sense?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Cool.

[Unknown]

So what, I adjust volume or anything like that for that mini cut or just kind of roll through it? Consistent programming. Like, if I'm currently running Anabolic right now, would I worry about any volume changes? Or it can just roll through.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're probably okay.

[Justin Andrews]

That program is fine.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. If it's just a mini cut. You know, the time you want to reduce volume in a cut is when the cut is prolonged or you're redlining. Like, you're already like, at the line. Like, oh, if I had, you know, I'm. I'm recovering and I'm adapting, but I'm pushing it, then I would reduce the. The volume.

[Justin Andrews]

A program like, that's perfect, though.

[Sal DiStefano]

Anabolic's probably okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. If you'd be more of a concern if you were running PED or a maps aesthetic where it's high, high volume. And then you also cut. But even then, a small week, two week cut isn't a big deal. It's like Sal said, a prolonged cut while also, you know, flirting with over training is. Is not an ideal. And that would. Then I would tell you. And again, guess what? But bf, how you feel if we're. You and I are. You're. I'm training you and you're like, man, Adam, just. I'm sore for longer and I feel like I'm getting weaker in the gym. Like, that tells me. It signals to me like, oh, we're probably over training a little bit, because we're in this calorie deficit. Let me scale you back a little bit or slightly increase the calories or. Or a blend of the two. And I'm going to modify. But again, I'm only going to do that again based off of the feedback that you're giving me and how you feel. That's how I'm going to tweak and adjust that. That.

[Unknown]

Gotcha. Because that's probably where I was coming from. I was kind of redlining in the other direction in terms of the cut I was on. And for the most part, like, I got, like, fairly low calories, but I was still having, like, a decent libido. Sleep was good. Recovery was decent. I wasn't necessarily over training, but I was. Towards the end of performance, I got down to, like, 1800 calories. And that final drop in calories, I noticed a little bit of a strength decline. And that was my trigger to, like, okay, I'm at the end of my Runway. Start getting back up to about 2,000 right now. And the end of the year, I'd like to see myself around 3,500, give or take 4,000.

[Justin Andrews]

That's perfect. Yeah. Great decision. Great goal. I think that's. I think you're on the right track, dude. Cool. Yeah. Let me. Are you in our private forum?

[Unknown]

I'm not.

[Justin Andrews]

So let me. Let me have Doug send you access to that. It'd be great to keep an eye on you. That, and this way, too. If you have questions as you're going along your profile process that you can just let us know. And then what program are you following right now?

[Unknown]

Right now. I just started anabolic. I'm still in pre phase.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Unknown]

And then I'm probably gonna do power lift after before rolling back into either performance, or I might grab symmetry or something.

[Justin Andrews]

I love that. It's a great choice.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Good job, man.

[Unknown]

Cadence.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep. Cool.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right on. All right. Thanks, Dion.

[Justin Andrews]

We'll see you in the forum. Yeah.

[Unknown]

Thanks, guys. Take care.

[Sal DiStefano]

You got it. Hey. Z's on the right track.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Doing a good job.

[Sal DiStefano]

He's on the right track. Yeah. Yeah. Reverse diet is a bulk. The reason why we changed the name of a bulk to reverse diet is because a reverse diet sounds better to somebody who's trying to boost your metabolism and trying to lose weight.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean. Yeah. You know, I mean, we, like. We say calories, calorie, surplus, bulk, reverse diet. They all. Generally. They just mean you're eating more calories and you're burning, and you're and you're, you're moving towards gaining something whether it's muscle, metabolic rate, whatever, but they're all relative, they're all the same. Now some people treat bulks as like a bigger calorie jump but really it's all the same.

[Justin Andrews]

I want to mention because I know, I know we gave like a protocol of like oh, bulk for this many weeks cut for this, that and what I don't want to get into some science argument or debate with some dork online that you know, tries to make some, some argument that the, this is what the science says, it's better. It's like this is a situation where I'm, every client of mine is going to be a little bit different and the psychology of what is going on with the client is most important. You could run a six week cut and then interrupt it with a three week, you know, bulk and there's lots of different ways you can do it. Really what I'm doing is I'm feeling the client out and the feedback they're giving me on how they feel, how their strength is, how hard it is for them to eat this much food. And that is a lot that has more to do with, to do with it than like what the science says on what is the most fastest, optimal way to burn body fat or build muscle. And this is a classic example of a conversation like that that's more important.

[Unknown]

Our next caller is Kelly from North Carolina.

[Sal DiStefano]

Hi Kelly, how you doing?

[Justin Andrews]

Kelly, how are you?

[Kelly]

Hi, good, how are you?

[Sal DiStefano]

Very good. How can we help you?

[Kelly]

Thank you so much for having me on. Actually I was on about two years ago when I had first started my reverse diet journey. So I will go ahead and get into it. Okay, I'll just read my email or I'll ramble. So. Dear mind pump, I'm 44 year old, 5 foot 3 female who has been following Mat's programs and now a coaches program programming. For the last two and a half years I've gone from 127 pounds at about 30% body fat to 142 pounds and think I'm still around 30% body fat. I've got my calories up to around 1900 from an average of a thousand in the first five months. But beyond that my weight shoots up and so does my body fat. So for the last two years I've been holding steady in the weight department and body and trying to do body recomp. Even though I continue to get stronger, I can still do the same amount of pull ups. So I know I'm getting stronger because if I'm way that much more and I can do the same amount of pull ups and I know that that's an indicator of strength. I also realized that some of the weight was muscle or wouldn't have maintained the undesirably high 30% body fat. It would have gotten even higher. I now have traps so I have something to put the bar on for squats. It's not bone and I'm able to do decline sit ups without getting a raw spot that I forget about until I get in the shower. Both are much appreciated. However, I thought I would lean out more by now, especially since kind of the focus is always to be trying to get healthier and then the aesthetics will follow. So should I focus on hypertrophy style training more? For the last two and a half years, I followed the following program. So I started with the RGB bundle, then I went to Symmetry, did Strong Love, Strong Anabolic, advanced old time strength, also a big fave Muscle Mommy. And now I'm doing workouts with my coach, Christina Hathaway from the mindset of matter, which thank you, you guys are the ones who introduced me to her.

[Justin Andrews]

Awesome. I want to get some clarity though. Kelly, we talked to you just a year ago because you say you've been following mass programs for two and a half years, but we didn't get you on the reverse diet until about a year ago. Is that correct?

[Kelly]

No, I was on the show about two years ago and I had, I had started like I had started the reverse diet.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Kelly]

At that point.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Kelly, I gotta tell you, you're doing really good. You're kicking ass.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So just. Okay, look, you're, you're a 127 pounds at 30 body fat versus 142 at 37 body fat, sorry, 30 body fat, your height, the aesthetics have followed. So you are, first off, you're healthier. So same body fat percentage, more muscle, more fitness and stronger. You're kicking ass. Your body, I guarantee, looks a lot better at the same body fat percentage with more muscle than it did before at less. With less muscle, same body fat percentage. And you did gain a considerable amount of muscle which improves things like mobility, your insulin sensitivity, androgen receptor density. So I'm probably, I'm going to guess that your things like sleep, libido, energy probably significantly better. And you also doubled your calories. So 900 calorie bump is great. But when you put it in the context of the fact that you're eating a thousand calories before. Okay, so a 900 calorie bump for anybody is a lot. That's like a. That would take like two hours of cardio for somebody to try to burn that. And your body's doing that on its own. But when you put it in the context of you've almost doubled your calories, that's significant. So thethe aesthetics are following. And now the question I have to ask for you is how long were you in the low calorie phase four before you started the reverse diet?

[Kelly]

Two years ago, I had maintained 127 for about five years.

[Sal DiStefano]

So would you say it was always around a thousand calories around that time?

[Kelly]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay, so you ate really low and by the way, a thousand cal. I would. We're actually advised in our certification courses, not that those are the be all end all, but they actually say in there, do not take clients below 1200 calories. So in 1200 calories is low. I would never take somebody below 1200 calories for longer than a couple days because now you're messing with essential nutrients. So you were in a really low calorie intake for a long time. It's gonna take a while for your body to start to get comfortable with the higher calories in the sense that, to put it differently, if you keep doing what you're doing, you will start to see yourself get leaner. It's just gonna take a little while.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

A thousand calories is really low for a long time.

[Justin Andrews]

And you actually have made incredible progress in a short period of time already.

[Sal DiStefano]

I already did the math.

[Justin Andrews]

No, it doesn't probably feel like that to you, because I know what it probably feels like. Feels like you've been disciplined and consistent and eating more. And it's just like. And you're seeing the body fat percentage about the same. But when you do, when you do the breakdown of where your strength has come, how much muscle you've put on, how many calories you're eating, you are really kicking ass in that context. But I get it. I know the part where it feels like, like you've done so much and you should see way more, but you have seen a lot. It's just. And, and by the way, when I have clients, if we get. And I hope you're not that stuck here, but when you're really, really stuck and I just can't, I would sometimes will interrupt them with a cut for four weeks just to show them, like, what you've done already. Like, I could take you down and Christina could take you down. To 12, 1300 calories for a few weeks, and you will definitely lose some weight. You're gonna lean out. You will. I mean, because you've already built a metabolism now that is maintaining at 1900 calories. So taking you down to 13, which, by the way, is still higher than what you were before, and you'd be leaning out. So if I needed to do that to show you, like, what you've done, because you're not. It's not. You're not grasping it. Sometimes I would do that with a client. Like, let me get. Okay, the next month, we're cutting. We're gonna cut for a month. I'm gonna show you what you've already accomplished in this period of time just to show you how much better control you have, your metabolism. But I still would be telling you I want to go further. I want to get you up to more like 24, 2600 calories. And we're heading there. You're doing great. And if you don't believe me that we're going to get there, then I can show you what you've already accomplished to try and get you to get bought back into what I'm doing with you and encourage you that you're doing a great job.

[Sal DiStefano]

Already you've gained something like 12 pounds of lean body mass.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So even with the same body fat, you know, just. Even from an aesthetic point of view, and I'm only communicating this because that's typically what we tend to focus on. It's like, okay, how I look like, what's going here? A 12 pound, increasing lean body mass with the same body fat percentage looks very different. You know, if you take a man who is 20% body fat without that much muscle, and you have him take his shirt off, and then you have another man with a lot of muscle with 20% body, they look very different. Even though the body fat percentage is the same. Just from an aesthetic. Forget the health perspective. I don't need to argue that from a health perspective, you're. You're far better off.

[Justin Andrews]

You'll be curvier. You'll have more definition in your quads.

[Sal DiStefano]

You have curves.

[Justin Andrews]

Your shoulder. Shoulders. Yeah, you have shape. You have good shape to you, but.

[Sal DiStefano]

You'Re totally moving in the right direction. You're. You're moving in a really good direction. And you could do the cut like Adam said, just to. To let yourself feel a little better, but you're doing. You're. You're crushing.

[Justin Andrews]

What's Christina telling you?

[Kelly]

Yeah, she's actually just as of like last week moved me into our first cut.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, there you go.

[Justin Andrews]

Probably just, probably for the exact feel better. Probably for the exact reasons I'm telling you right now. It's just to show you.

[Kelly]

And only taking me down to like 6:15 to 16.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's good. And how, how much stronger are you? You've got to feel so much stronger.

[Kelly]

Yeah, I am. So I'm in the forum and so I was Christina's person that she shared that was doing stuff for her husband because my husband is disabled and I have to be able to move him around.

[Sal DiStefano]

I remember.

[Kelly]

And he weighs about 260 pounds. So like my, my goal is to get my deadlift up to 260 pounds so I can move him around.

[Justin Andrews]

Wow.

[Sal DiStefano]

Good job. Where you at? Yeah, where you at with your deadlift?

[Kelly]

So I'm 2:30. I had tweaked my back a little bit, so I'm almost there.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're strong. You're strong as hell.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're, you're, you're so far away from where you were. Just stay patient.

[Justin Andrews]

Trust the process with Christina. She knows what she's doing. She's a great trainer. She understands the mindset of it too, obviously. So. And I'm, I'm, I'm certain that's why she's giving you this cut right now. It's probably because you've expressed this to her and she just wants to show you. But I bet you she'd prefer that you continue to reverse diet to get your calories up even higher. Because you can afford to go higher for sure.

[Kelly]

Okay, good job. If you've got time, can I ask a second question?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Kelly]

So what would be a healthy body fat level for females with overall goals of health span and not wanting to look like a busted can of biscuits naked? If metabolism is linked to tissue, would focus on hypertrophy increase the BMR more than strength? Because I think of those strong guys you've got when Jordan Syed did his four times body weight deadlift. And then you see the Anatoly Malkin on Instagram and stuff. So there are these tiny guys, but they're ridiculously strong.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, strength is interesting. Strength is a skill. It's the central nervous system. It's muscles working together and then it's also the size of muscle muscles. Both hypertrophy and strength seem to be connected to metabolic rate. Now here's why I tell you to chase strength. Chasing muscle size and hypertrophy can be tricky because muscle size is greatly influenced by things like hydration pump perception, carbohydrates. Carbohydrates. Strength is very objective. I like chasing strength until you're so strong where it starts to get stupid. Like you know, okay, like I don't think we should keep pushing strength because the risk factor is now so high for injury. But I like strength. Strength is a much better, it's more objective metric to continue to measure so and, and muscle follows strength. It almost always follows strength. So I would continue and to chase.

[Justin Andrews]

And, and chasing hypertrophy is a, is, it's definitely deceiving totally to the points of salad being like there'll be times. And I remember this when I was competing when I knew I was doing everything perfect. But then I look in the mirror and I look like I went the wrong wrong way. And so if you use that as your guide for most people that can really steer you in the wrong direction or discourage you when you know you're flat and you don't, you're not hydrated or you don't have carbohydrates yet you're doing everything perfect as far as hitting your calorie intake strength, your programming, everything else. But because you're focused on the, the look of the muscle hypertrophy, how big it is or not, and you go oh my God, I look like I lost muscle this week. And but you hadn't. So yeah, I, I always prefer to use strength as them even with my competitors by the way that, that are in the of how they look. I still want to use strength as our, as our metric that drives us towards what we focus on.

[Sal DiStefano]

And to answer the question about body fat percentage, body fat percentage in comparison to a simple grip strength test to predict all cause mortality. The strength test greatly outperforms it. To put it differently, a woman at 40% body fat with lots of strength and good fitness is going to have better odds with longevity or health span than a woman at 15% body fat who has very little muscle and very little mobility. And so it'll be a drastic difference. The 15% female with low muscle, low mobility has actually a high mortality rate. So I wouldn't worry. And you're well within, I mean you're 30%'s fine, you're totally fine. If you're fit, you're strong, you're perfectly fine. So I wouldn't worry about that.

[Justin Andrews]

That.

[Kelly]

Okay, well thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[Sal DiStefano]

You got it. Thanks for calling in. Good job, good questions. I like, I like that, that, that kind of question. She almost doubled her calories, built A tremendous. And again, I want to say this to people right now. Muscle versus no muscle, same body fat percentage from a looks, forget health, it looks way different. A woman at 30% body fat with muscle different. She has a butt, she's got shape. The body fat falls where it's supposed to versus 30 with no muscle, which looks like it's, you know, just kind of hanging on you. Same thing for men. It makes a muscle, makes a huge difference. Getting caught up on the scale can really screw people's perception.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, I, I like this question in this conversation because this is so common with clients that would be doing such a great job. But, but because they're not happy quite yet where the aesthetics are, they don't, don't realize how good of a job that they're doing. And I get it right, because in her head she's like, man, I've been doing this for two years and I watch what I eat and I hit my workouts and it's just like, you know, yeah, I'm a little stronger. Yeah, these, some, some of the libido. Yeah, okay. But I thought I'd see so much more. But you have to understand where you're coming from. One of the hardest clients to help as far as changing especially body composition is somebody that has come from an extremely chronic low diet where you've been, you've been malnutrition for a long period of time and you have slowed your metabolism down to where you hold body fat at thousand calories a day, taking that client especially the longer that you were. So if you were years in that low calorie, hanging at that body, since it's going to take us a while to get it out of that. And she's actually, I've seen clients see way less results in two years time over this process. So the fact that she is doubled her calories, got stronger, maintained her body fat percentage, put on probably 12 pounds of muscle. I mean that's actually really phenomenal. And, but I would have to do this sometimes where it's just like, okay, do I need to show you that we can, we can drop 5, 10 pounds real quick? I'll show you. We could drop that real quick, but then I'm going to want you to come back the other way. Just. And so I do that sometimes with a client to, to rebuild trust that I know what I'm doing and I got you.

[Unknown]

Our next caller is Jessica from Florida.

[Justin Andrews]

Hey, how you doing, Jessica?

[Sal DiStefano]

Good to see you again.

[Justin Andrews]

Hello.

[Adam Schafer]

Hi guys. So great to see you. Thank you so much for having me on. I really appreciate it.

[Sal DiStefano]

You got it. Who's the little guy? Is that your boy?

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. So this is Griffin. He is six months old. We actually met at the Arnold or not the Arnold, the Olympia in last year in December. I know you guys met a lot of people. Totally understand. He was actually with us.

[Justin Andrews]

Did you know at that time?

[Adam Schafer]

No, I had no idea.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh wow.

[Sal DiStefano]

He is so cute.

[Justin Andrews]

That's awesome.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, What a cutie.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, you look great. Already rebounded very nicely, I see.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Thank you so much. Really tried to go about it the right way, the way I would want all my clients to go about it. You know, definitely prioritizing just core recovery and you know, those first four weeks not doing anything except being present with him, establishing our bond and everything. So that was definitely the shift. It was very hard for me but definitely was worth it because it really led to really great recovery afterwards.

[Sal DiStefano]

Awesome.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. So I know you guys have a lot going on and I don't know how much time he's going to give me. So is it cool if I. I have different parts to my question. Would you guys like me to just go one at a time?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, let's do one at a time.

[Adam Schafer]

Cool.

[Kelly]

Awesome.

[Adam Schafer]

All right, thanks guys. So I emailed this question at four and a half months postpartum. Currently six. Started Muscle Mommy. Love it by the way. It's fantastic. So been lifting consistently for four years and competed in the bikini division for two years. Continued lifting with modifications all through pregnancy. Did a slow gradual progression back like we just talked about. So was super excited to start Muscle Mommy and just try to gain that muscle back. With that being said, when I started phase one, the reasoning behind the upper body focus. So I am all about a good full body split and truthfully it's all I have the time for. But just feel like and this might just be because of what I'm used to with programming but there, there wasn't a lot of lower body work being implemented. So would love your rationale on incorporating only two leg focus movements within. And now that I've almost finished, well, I finished phase one and phase two so those two leg focus movements, glute focus movements. Just really wanted to stay bought into the program and everything and I would love to go into a five day split again but I know that's not realistic with time. So just want to. I trust Yalls knowledge but just want to know the why behind it.

[Justin Andrews]

This always comes from my bikini competitors.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, I do.

[Adam Schafer]

I know I'm Sorry.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, no, it's not. It's not your fault. It's just that there is a massive, like. So when. When. When we coach and train body bikini competitors, there tends to be this massive emphasis on lower body. It's not that the program is upper body heavy and lower and less lower body. It's that you are used to a significantly high volume of lower body in comparison, you have more muscles in your upper body. You've only got a couple muscles that we're training in your lower body. So relative to how many muscles you have in your lower body versus how many you have in your upper body, it's balanced. It's balanced the way it should be balanced. But be the kini. Competitors. Hammer the shit out of their legs. Hammer. Now, if you were my client, I would. Before we modify it, I'd personally want you to attempt to do it and see what you notice and see if we. Because what I. Because I've trained a lot of bikini competitors and I got a lot of bikini competitors after somebody else coached them, and I've had to undo a lot of programming and training that other coaches did. And the. In the. The recipe for most coaches with bikini competitors is just more of everything. More ass, more legs, more cardio is this. That's how they answer every problem of, oh, you want more glute development? Cool, we'll just pile more leg stuff on instead of balancing the program out or pulling back something like they should. Same thing goes when they're attempt to lean out out more cardio. You were doing an hour every day. Let's do two hours every day. It's just. It's not the. It's not the appropriate volume, intensity that should be applied for the desired outcome. So if you were my client, I would want you to go through it as it's laid out and. And trust the process. Now, if you finished it and you look back at me, said, Adam, I'm telling you, my ass looked way better when I was doing this and this, then I would say, okay, let's. Let's start to add some things in there. Maybe some hip thrust that will. I'll let you do for an extra day of the week or some other ways that we could overload the body. And then maybe I pull back on some of your. Maybe you can look at me and go, adam, I've got great shoulders and arms. I don't really need to touch them much. So maybe we scale back some of that volume. And that's where I put in some of the butt stuff. Or leg stuff that you may be missing. But I'm telling you right now, the, the way that program is laid out, it is laid out to build your legs just perfectly. But I, I know I always get this when I get bikini competitors.

[Sal DiStefano]

Muscle mommy, we're talking about.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, that's it. There is more volume for the lower body.

[Justin Andrews]

There is, it's plenty.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And the problem is we divide the body into upper and lower. But in the upper body you have pecs, delts, buys, tries and back. Lower body's quad hammed glute. And a lot of the exercises hit other muscles in the lower body. So squats, stiff legged, deadlifts, hip thrusts, they all hit the glutes, they all hit the hamstrings to some extent. So now if I did a bunch of isolation exercises for the lower body, then it would look similar.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Sal DiStefano]

If I did, you know, but quad, hamstring, calf glute, hip flexor, abduction, adduction. Well, now it looks like now you're like, oh, now I'm doing like an upper body style workout for my lower. But that's not how you train the lower body.

[Justin Andrews]

So that's not for the best bang for your buck. And that's why I would want you to trust like what the programming go like. Trust me, if I got you doing these movements at this much volume and intensity, I bet you I'm going to show you some of the best legs you've ever had. Bad. But if you argued with me afterwards and said, no, my legs were better when I did this way, well, then as a coach, I would flex and go, okay, well then let's add some of those, you know, isolation exercises that keep you busier on your legs. But if you want the, the most efficient way to train that body and look the way you want to look, I would follow it the way it's laid out.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I definitely hear you. And it's funny, you know, I wrote this at the very beginning, right. So I've, I just started the last phase, the five by five. And I don't know if you guys saw the progress photos that I sent over. So those were right before and they were right after. And it's.

[Justin Andrews]

You look amazing.

[Sal DiStefano]

Let me see.

[Justin Andrews]

You look amazing.

[Sal DiStefano]

He's gonna bring him up again. Let's see.

[Adam Schafer]

I really appreciate that, Adam. I really do. And it's very, very funny. And part of me, you know, the part of me who is always pushing for more is saying, okay, this is just your muscle Coming. You know, you guys talk about all the time on the show. Like, okay, muscle memory, right? So it's like, okay, Jess, this is just your muscle coming back. Like, it's not really. You know, you need to add more. You need to add more volume, because that's where my mind goes, right? Like, as a former competitor, but hearing.

[Justin Andrews]

Look at your ass. Look at your ass and legs in.

[Sal DiStefano]

This picture, by the way, I was shocked.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay, good. Okay, good. I'm glad you're admitting that, because I can see it.

[Adam Schafer]

I am.

[Justin Andrews]

And I. And I know this.

[Adam Schafer]

I was so shocked, I had to go ahead and put them side by side, because, idiot me, I know better. But I was. I was going off the scale. Scale was going up two to three pounds. And I'm like, all right, get out of your own head. Take your progress photos. And I was like, holy shit, dude.

[Sal DiStefano]

Like, all of it.

[Adam Schafer]

Wow.

[Sal DiStefano]

All of it.

[Adam Schafer]

I felt like, dude, I'm only doing. I'm only doing hip thrust. I'm only doing squats, like, RDls. Like, you know, I'm only doing. I think it's like six a week, Six movements. And I'm like, wow. Like, so. So, y'all, it's. It is. And it's just very different style than what I'm used to. And you guys really put it into focus just now by saying, like, look at how many different parts of the upper body that you're training, you know? And so I am used to, like, you're saying, Adam, where it's like, all right, we're doing hip abductions. We're doing kickbacks, we're doing all the accessory movements, because we're growing, growing, growing, growing, growing the glutes. And it is very interesting to see just the development that happened because. Because with him. And that kind of goes into another part of my question. It's like, you know, it's a very big shift for me. I think the competing days might be gone just because of time and resources. And so, you know, a lot of it is going to be like, I always want to beat him in a sprint race. Like, I don't want him to ever beat me. Like, when he starts baseball. Like, you know, I was a former D1 catcher for softball. Like, I want to be out on the field with him and things. So, you know, it's not always going to be about growing my glutes. It's going to be about staying good. Like, and, like. And I know we're kind of shifting away from the term longevity, but that's. That's what I want for him. So with that being said, my mobility has taken a little bit of a hit since having him. I don't know if it's just getting up and down with him a lot more. I'm able to by any means, but it just, you start to feel it after a workout a little bit more. So do you guys have any certain mobility exercises you would recommend to a new mom postpartum or for me specifically? You know, I'm in the last phase of Muscle Mommy. What program to go to from here to help with kind of that performance aspect, but also the mobility.

[Justin Andrews]

If you, if you trust us now, and I've built that, if I've built that with you, then I want to take you to the next step that will probably blow your mind. And I would want you to follow Maps Performance 15.

[Unknown]

Yeah, exactly.

[Justin Andrews]

Which is going to give you more time with your kid, which is going to address all the psychological, the mobility and performance aspects of the things you're saying. And guess what? I bet you you continue to build muscle too.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yep, there you will.

[Justin Andrews]

And, and it, and it will feel like you're going to be like screaming, oh my God, this is not enough. And I'm telling you right now, it's going to be enough. And you're going to see amazing results from it. And I would love to take you through that because I think you're, you're going to have this complete with all your experience of competing and taking it to the highest level and then us showing you kind of programming with a different philosophy. I think you're going to be. And then you being a mommy now, you're going to know right where to be. You're going to know how to weave in and out of those different modalities. You're going to know what they're going to give your body. And I think you'll be blown away by Maps 15 performance on what it will give you if you were to do that.

[Sal DiStefano]

And trust me, perfect follow up. And you know, let me add something to Jessica that, you know, I've trained a lot of women pre, during and post pregnancy and I've trained people like you who were very fit and strong going into pregnancy. I've also trained a lot of women who were not exercising until they got pregnant. And then we started training. The fact that you are where you are six months postpartum, as good as you look and as fit as you are, is a testament to how fit you were before you got pregnant. It okay, but I want to communicate Something that is not communicated to women enough. Because the message that women tend to get from social media and from other women who aren't necessarily telling the truth is oh, you're, you'll bounce back six months or three months. And look, I'm, here's my experience training women athletes in particular, you're not going to feel 100% like yourself until about a year and a half after. It takes about a year, about a year and a half. Now that doesn't mean you're not going to be fit and strong and look good and all that stuff. Stuff. But if you're comparing yourself to how you were peak before you got pregnant, takes about a year and a half to two years just because sleep, hormones, breastfeeding and look, you know this very well, you have very good body awareness because you're into fitness. That is a radical change that your body went through. It's not a small change. It is radical. It is veryyour. Muscle recruitment patterns probably aren't still back to where they used to. I mean you had this growing baby in your body. Hormones change. There are things that are released like elastin that changes connective tissue. You have different, you know, catecholamine production, bonding chemicals. Now because you have a baby, you're not the same. It takes about a year and a half to two years for you to be like, oh, this is, I'm back to like where I used to be. Regardless, regardless, no matter what. But again you're, you're, that doesn't mean you're not going to improve and get more fit and all that stuff. And again, for people watching, women watching, I'll say this to them, you know, the results that Jessica is getting or the reason why she looks the way she does has less to do with the fact that she worked out while she was pregnant after is much more to do with the fact that she was very fit before she got pregnant. And I want to say that because women tend to compare and compete and it can be very difficult to get pregnant and then afterwards and you feel like your body's not yours. Am I doing enough? Am I not doing enough? What's going on type of deal.

[Justin Andrews]

So just consider that I'm just super proud of you for being open minded enough to follow Muscle Mommy the way it's laid out and then to be open and then also self aware enough to take a picture before and actually compare it. Because I know this, the psychological part of that messes with people and my female bikini competitors sometimes are the hardest for me. To get this message through to them.

[Adam Schafer]

As soon as I saw some of the chest exercises and things, I was like, oh, come on. Like, dude, like, you got me doing flat bench. And. But it's been. Yeah, it's been really, really great to see it. And I, you know, I mean, you can't. I can't sit here and say like, with your guys's knowledge, like, oh, I. I know better than them. Right? Like, I have the knowledge. I. I work with clients. But there's so much that you guys have done in your time that I'm like, I'm going for it. I'm going to trust it. I'm going to learn so much this process. And then hearing you guys answer the questions too, it just, it only helps me. So I really, really appreciate you guys so much for that and I'm. I'm going for it. As far as with performance, I'm terrified. I took a bit. I did the five by five for the first time yesterday and it. My ego took a huge hit with slots. Oh, man. Because like, you guys are talking about with recruitment patterns. But. And maybe you guys can answer this. You know, it was. It really felt like a shock to my cns putting that heavy weight on. Yeah, I was, you know, and previously I was doing 225 for 10 and I was hitting 185 for 5. And I was like, you know, it brought me down for a minute, but just like you just said, Sal, I was like, come on. Like, what would you tell your postpartum clients? Like, this is. You literally grew this amazing human right here.

[Sal DiStefano]

Like, come on, Jessica, your brain changed, your physiology. Change changed.

[Justin Andrews]

Hormones changed. Everything has changed.

[Sal DiStefano]

Look, I'll give you an example. I bet you're hypersensitive to sound at sleep now, whereas before, yeah, soundly. You sleep so soundly now it's like, oh, I'm awake and I'm awake.

[Adam Schafer]

I don't even need the monitor. Like, his breathing changes and I'm awake.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, your body is primed to put him as a priority. It's supposed to. And I'm sure you wouldn't change that anyway, so you're not the same.

[Adam Schafer]

I changed everything for him. I'm home right now. And that's. That was very hard for me, but I really appreciated Yalls episode. I cannot remember who it was, but that talked about staying home with them.

[Justin Andrews]

Erica Komisar.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I mean, it was just this innate feeling in me that I needed to. And we figured it out because I was like, I don't know what it is Austin, my husband. I was like, I can't go back. And then hearing that episode, it brought tears to my eyes because I was like, I get it now. I know why.

[Justin Andrews]

Good for you for listening. Good for you for listening.

[Sal DiStefano]

Awesome. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Jessica, I'm going to send over maps 15 performance and love to hear back from you. You're a great person to stay in touch with as far as your progress through that and would love to hear what you think.

[Adam Schafer]

Absolutely. I can't thank you guys enough. There was one last thing. Just thank you guys. So Bulgarian split squads, single arm rows, elevated sumo squats. I have access to up to 40 pound dumbbells, but have a full access to squat rack bar plates. What should be the difference when we have those six reps, Right? Like for Bulgarian split squats, using a barbell versus using dumbbells. How you know is that. Is that something I should do or just slow down my tempo with the dumbbells?

[Sal DiStefano]

At this point, slowing down the tempo is going to be important because of your pelvic floor recruitment and core stability. So you may find that your hips and low back back are still a bit sensitive to load. So I would slow down and control intense to continue working on that stability.

[Justin Andrews]

That being said, they'll come a time where you get so strong that the dumbbells are no longer challenged. I mean, your grip strength is what limits you from loading more bridge.

[Unknown]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And then you can move over. But I would definitely wait for that. If you can still hold on to heavy enough that challenges you in the low rep range. On the Bulgarians, I would keep doing that until you. You've progressed slowly past that. And then you could go to the barbell after that.

[Adam Schafer]

And then we feel like, you know, either going like landmine style with a single arm row.

[Sal DiStefano]

Great idea. Yeah, sure. Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay. All right. I appreciate that, guys. I can't thank you guys enough for taking my. My question. I'm excited and grateful for this guy for letting me do it.

[Sal DiStefano]

So awesome.

[Justin Andrews]

So awesome.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's a sign.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, you guys are awesome. It was amazing meeting you guys at Olympia. Amazing talking to you guys now. Keep putting out amazing content and we appreciate you so much.

[Sal DiStefano]

Thank you. What a happy.

[Justin Andrews]

What a great. What a great, happy conversation.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You know, I wasn't sure. I was like, oh, this is gonna be so difficult when she was talking, but I'm so glad that she stuck with it and then she had the pictures because look at bro, how sick she. She looks crazy good for especially somebody.

[Unknown]

Get another Perfect example to, to show when that question comes up because it doesn't come up quite a bit.

[Justin Andrews]

I always. You. I don't even tell you guys half the deal because I obviously with my competitive background, I get a lot more of the competitors talking to me and they all the girls. Muscle mommy does not.

[Unknown]

I hear it too.

[Justin Andrews]

Muscle mommy doesn't have enough legs. Doesn't have enough legs. It's like, no, you've been training legs the wrong way. That's what you can't just say that to them. You know what I'm saying? You can't just like I could be like the other coaches doing all the insignificant, do a bunch of bunch butt kicks and dog pees and like all these exercises that don't do for your ass if you want, just to keep you busy. Or I can program it in a way that you spend less time in the gym, you get the most amount of results. It's up to you. But if you want me to put a bunch of fluff exercises or busy.

[Unknown]

Which one you want.

[Justin Andrews]

But I mean this is what these coaches do. This is what is. This is one of the problems with the competitive space is the answer to every problem that a coach gets with a bikini competitor, which typically is, is I want more ass and legs or I can't get lean enough is throw more at them. It's just more things. Yeah. No rhyme or reason, no science to support it. Just oh, you want more ass. Here, add these to your workout. Oh, you're still not getting enough. Here, add these to your workout. Oh, you're not getting lean enough. Oh, add StairMaster for an hour. It's just like, dude, just. It's, it's horrible.

[Unknown]

Our next caller is Adrian from Massachusetts.

[Sal DiStefano]

Hey, Adrian, what's happening man? How can we help you?

[Doug]

Hey guys, what's going on?

[Sal DiStefano]

How you doing, man? What's going on on?

[Doug]

Oh, nothing much. Just amazing to be back here on with you guys.

[Justin Andrews]

What you got for us?

[Doug]

So I'll read my email. I was on a couple months ago and I emailed in again. A lot has changed since the last time we talked. I was on the show a few months ago with a question about my personal fitness. Given my busy work and home schedule, I was a lawyer at the time. Technically still a lawyer, but not practicing any anymore. So I'm writing back with another question. Last time we spoke, I wasn't overworked over trained attorney that was teaching group fitness on the side.

[Justin Andrews]

I remember now.

[Doug]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, okay.

[Doug]

We briefly talked about how fitness was my passion and something I wanted to do despite being as busy as I was also having three kids and at the time you prescribed maps 15. Fast forward to now. I'm probably still overworked and definitely over trained. But I've actually left the firm that I was at. So I'm doing fitness full time now. So I decided to turn my passion for helping others and their fitness journey into my career. I'd love to have the opportunity blessed to be on to be able to pick your brains about the best strategies as I shift my career focus. In particular shifting from that more kind of group fitness focus into building my own business. At the time when I wrote this, I said I was currently teaching 18 to 20 group classes a week. Now it's probably 12 to 15, so a little less across three different studios. So three different companies. But I also have a couple of one on one clients as well. And I know how you guys feel about group fitness and definitely see, see tons of people on that kind of hamster wheel that we talk about all the time without any long term sustained change that I, I would love to help. And obviously from a business perspective, I know I can do better financially if I shift into from the class model to training more one on one. But I kind of see the studios that I teach at as places to make those connections in the industry, meet people, learn, get leads, build my reputation in the space and in the city while I'm doing that. So what are some strategies you would employ to get clients and make this transition while I'm creating my own business? Thanks for everything that you do.

[Justin Andrews]

Great place to plug clients for Asia. I don't. How come I don't see you in our mentorship? Why are you not in our course?

[Doug]

I. I would really love to be in the course. I jump on every one of the free ones that pop up. But actually when I made that transition, I was a manager at one of the studios. That's part of was the plan. But they actually eliminated that role that I was in. So now it's kind of just the classes. So the budget's a little tight right now is the only reason, honestly.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay, okay. Well, at least you're attending the courses. I'm glad you're doing that. We do have payments on it, so it's not a major thing out of the budget.

[Sal DiStefano]

It would really help you.

[Justin Andrews]

It would because this is the type of stuff we talk about. This is the course is centered around how. Because what we did with the course and I just saw other trainers that are listening because I Want to make sure we're clear. We were not trying to compete with nasm, NCSF Alpha, all your national certifications that do a really good job of talking about nutrition, physiology, biomechanics. That was not what our goal was. Our goal was to fill the gap that we saw in the space where nobody talks about what you're asking. No course really puts a lot of energy and effort is. Okay, I've decided I want to help people. Okay, great. I've got the knowledge from these certifications now how the fuck do I make money? And where, where if I like group classes, if I want to do one on one, like, like that is the entire course. The entire course is to take whatever, whatever area of fitness that you are wanting to work in. How do you scale that? Where. How do you use social media to build your business? How do you go online? Everything you could think of, that's what that course is about. So I just want to make that clear for everybody who's a trainer that's listening, that this is. That's what that. And by the way, it's accredited now. So it actually, if you have any certifications, which I'm sure you do, if you're a trainer, it now adds a CEUS for that to extend it for two more years. So just so everybody knows that, but I love group classes as a way to, to pluck clients. I don't know if you know this, but when Mind Pump first started, I was teaching at Orange Theory, which is group classes.

[Doug]

I've read that.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Okay, so. And one of my favorite things to do is at the end of every class, I don't know if your classes you currently do cooldowns or you kind of like at the very end. So I use that five to 10 minutes to educate and teach. Now you've got us. So you have a podcast to reference, which is. And I had the podcast to reference. So what I would do and you. And the way I would decide this is follow the flow of the podcast. So hopefully you listen. When you listen to an episode, you're like, oh man, when the guys broke down macros the other day, that was really good information. So that becomes my topic in Cooldown today is I. And I'm only going to give a nugget. Nugget. Like I'm gonna give a nugget of. Of science. A nugget of. Of information. So they, they, they could go, huh, really? You think I should eat more calories? Or you think. And to get them questioning what I have to say and Then I would reference the podcast. Hey, if you guys want more information about it, my buddies over at mindpub just did a great episode where they dive deep into the science of what I'm talking about. That'll. If you're interested in what I'm trying to teach you guys right now, go, go check that out. And so I would just keep doing that every ep, and now I became the guy that was teaching all this information outside what all these other teachers were teaching. No one was teaching in the class. They were just running the classes. But I was educating and informing, right? And then it the after class, I started getting people that would be hanging around all the time, and those all ended up being great leads because these are the people that, like, I struck a nerve with them. They were the people and I knew what I was doing. I would, like, see these people that weren't progressing with their bodies, and they're coming up to my classes every day. And so a lot of times I give tips about that. It has something to do with them being metabolically adapted and they're not seeing the results that they're putting all this work in. And if that's you, these are the people that I help out. And then, like, you just leave those little nuggets to get them to ask questions afterwards. And then you have somewhere that you can send them. Now you could send them to the episode. Or in a perfect world, if you were in our course and we're mentoring you, I'd tell you, okay, this is how we build a freemium or something that you can offer these people so they can become on your email list. So let's say you have these fitness tips, the next thing you do, which, by the way, if you had our CRM, this is what we give all of our trainers that have our CRM. So we. If you go to mindpumpfree.com, there's over $2 million worth of digital assets that we've created over the last 10 years. When you have our CRM, you get those for you. They're yours. Now you can use those to capture email leads for your business. So now you have your class and you talk about, about the best ways to lose body fat. You give a couple tips from the guide, you go, oh, by the way, if you guys want more information, I have this free guide that was written and it's, you know, this mini page. It's totally free. Go to my website here. And now you have these people downloading it, and now they're in your email list. Now you can nurture those people, you can start to add more value to them and then eventually, hopefully turn them into phone calls that you turn into clients or sell them on group class training, or sell them on one on one personal training. I mean, we could talk all day about this stuff, but, but this is the type of stuff we talk about.

[Doug]

I already like talked to some people one on one who I kind of know, like you mentioned, you can kind of see, you know, that they need, they, they're looking for that type of connection. And I've recommended the podcast for lots of different things. You know, there are definitely people come to me about issues and I'm like, oh, hey, there's this great podcast that I listen to that's really point keys in on that topic and I'll send them an episode that's specific to whatever it is that they're, they're thinking on or issue they're dealing with.

[Justin Andrews]

The key is that we want to and people are good at this in social media. Some people, people are not like your platform you use, but the goal is to get these people that you're already seeing or paying attention to you in classes or online and to get them into like an email list where you can then nurture, meaning give them more value so that you've got them interested. You now get them in your email list and then every week they're getting some sort of a value add. It could be a recipe, it could be science and tips, it could be whatever. But you're just that way. You train them to like, man, this dude Adrian, I, he's helped me out in my class. I read his emails, he's always teaching me all this stuff. And then what do you do? Like every, like couple weeks you go, oh, by the way, if you need help with these things, I have a free consultation. You just book it right here. It's a 15 minute consultation. I can help you about your nutrition or any questions you have about exercise. And then you get them on the phone and now you got them on the phone. Now they're more likely to convert into a client, right? Especially if they've gone through that process of downloading your free guy, getting your email, opening your emails and listening to all the free stuff. You're giving them them. You've, you've built all this cred, right? You've built all this credibility with them of value, value, value. Now they're also willing to get on the phone with you. That's a hot lead. That's a person who's probably Going to buy personal training, especially if you can communicate, helping them out.

[Doug]

Yeah, no, that's great. I mean that, that obviously all makes sense.

[Justin Andrews]

So that was the best I could give you in like two minutes. I mean, I'm trying to. I'm trying to give you. I'm trying to give you a lot of time.

[Sal DiStefano]

Adrian, are you, Are you doing how many. You're doing group classes in different locations?

[Doug]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug]

There's like three different companies but six different studios. So I'm like in Boston, which. In Massachusetts, but kind of all over the city in lots of different areas. So lots of different.

[Sal DiStefano]

Where are you doing your one on ones? Yeah, where do you do your one on one? One on one clients.

[Doug]

So primarily out of one of the studios that has like kind of the biggest. The setup for the, for the gym and they have, you know, tons of weight racks and obviously good. A good setup to be able to have clients through.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're going to probably need to consolidate and start to focus on one. And if you want to move towards personal training and give yourself a good six months to a year to really get good at it. Big box gyms just give you that free training. You make less per hour, but they've got all the structures. You've got mentors and if you want, you can move up the ranks and become a general manager or something like that in there. But you're in the process of learning, especially with the one on one but being so spread out to be very hard for you to build your one on one that way. Unless your goal is online. If you want just do online coaching. When you spread out, you're totally fine. But if you want to do like one on one in person, you might want to consolidate. You're just kind of where you're at because that's. That sounds like you're pretty spread out.

[Justin Andrews]

Pay attention to 2. The same way that I'm going to get you to buy the course is the same way you should get somebody to invest in your personal training. So like, if you don't get off the phone with me right now and purchase like you should, good. You're going to continue to get value from me for free. I'm going to make sure you show up to all those free webinars that we do, get into our free forum like crazy, continue to help you continue to answer questions, continue to give you value on making you better train, till finally you're like, man, what am I doing? Every time I talk to this guy, he gives me some sort of advice why haven't I got his course? And then you invest the same thing works when you're a personal trainer. Not everybody's going to buy personal training for him right away. So value, value, value, educate them, help them in every way that you can on your social media, on your emails, every time you meet them, do webinars, do free classes, do all that stuff. Right. I used to love teaching. If I have group classes. I used to love giving free mobility days where I would. What if you have that place where you can do it in person? See if they will allow you to have an hour or two a week that you can have a whole area where you could hold 15, 20, 30 people and start talking to people about the benefits of mobility. Then hold a free mobility class in there where you get all these people one on one, where you have a full hour with them to help them with mobility drills and, and squatting and movement. And now that becomes a lead source. But the point is, I'm giving value, value, value to you until eventually they go, man, I got to hire this Adrian guy because every time he talks to me or meets me, he's helping me stuff. Why haven't I invested in him?

[Doug]

Yeah, I mean, I know that, that model. I mean, even with your programs, I was listening as a listener for probably maybe a year plus before I bought a program.

[Justin Andrews]

Right?

[Doug]

Same thing. It was like, man, eventually I was like, I gotta get it. You know, they know what they're talking about it. Definitely hear all these people talking about it. So, yeah, no, I see that.

[Justin Andrews]

Same formula. Same formula, brother.

[Sal DiStefano]

We hope to see you in that. I really think you would benefit from it. And you can do monthly payments and we're. I mean, it's. I don't know how many hours of coaching and training that we provide in that. And then look at the CRM. I mean, being a lawyer, you're probably very organized in your business. The CRM is going to organize your business as a personal trainer. So it does your email sequencing allows you to put together resources, which we give you, that you can, you can capture leads with. It consolidates all your messaging in one place except payments. Like, it literally is a system that.

[Unknown]

Organizes programs in there.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Unknown]

So lots of tools and handy things in there. So, yeah, the more you go through it, you're going to see the value in it.

[Justin Andrews]

When you're ready for us, we're ready for you, bro.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, yeah, definitely appreciate that.

[Justin Andrews]

But hey, in the meantime, when you get on those free webinars that you keep showing up to A challenge. Sal and I, when we're doing them, ask us these types of questions. I mean, that's our goal is to help you guys out as much as we possibly can, even if you don't invest in the course. Right. I'd like to see you guys continue to improve and grow your business. So make sure when you show up to those, challenge us with all these types of questions and I'll continue to try and give you value.

[Doug]

Yeah, I mean, question about that in terms of, I mean, maybe kind of covered it a little bit, but like, in particular, like with the group fitness, you know, it's always. I find it hard to. Even when I talk to people one on one.

[Justin Andrews]

Right.

[Doug]

Kind of get them out of the, like, like, oh, well, I, you know, I love my class and it's just, it's, it's so much fun and you know, you know, but it's better than, you know, not doing anything. And I probably couldn't work out on my own because it's boring.

[Justin Andrews]

Right.

[Doug]

Like, you know, how do you know what, what types of.

[Justin Andrews]

So that, that's because they like have those conversations. So that's, this is where they're like getting them over to the email list so you can slowly have.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

Because you're not in 15 minutes talking to somebody who's been doing group classes.

[Sal DiStefano]

Forever, they gotta leave.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, I would never try and can. I would never try and convince anybody class. What I would do is I give them these little nuggets that make them question what they're doing.

[Unknown]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

So like I would like for. Here's an example. Like in those classes they tend to train with circuits. Right. And they, they don't ever rest. They don't do rest periods. They don't understand the benefits of that. So I would explain the benefits of rest periods. And a lot of times when people don't understand this, this is how they get stuck in a plateau and why they don't see their strength increase anymore. That would cause the questions of what were you talking about this? I said, I tell you what, why don't we do this? Give me your email list. I'll send you an email. I can send you some articles, explain more in detail when we have more time. Because I know I only have five minutes before my next class and then I want to get them that. Now once I have their email, I can contact them and then over time I can build their trust by educating, adding value. And then eventually you get the buying question. But trying to convince like the. One of the worst Thing trainers do is try and convince people what they're doing is wrong. They'll put a wall up right away. Way they'll put a wall up right away. And they're not gonna. Even if you are the smartest guy ever and have all the science and information to tell them they're doing wrong, that's not the way I used to tell my trainers. The difference between a good closer and a great closer is a good closer can push somebody and guilt them into buying something. A great closer can pull them into a cell. The way you pull them into is by continually like leaving them these breadcrumbs to get them to finally go like, okay, Adrian, I don't get it. What, what's so you saying I shouldn't take these classes or do you think these classes are good for me? Me? Ah, that's what I'm looking for. I'm looking for you to ask me that question to open the door so I can then educate you on what would be better for you. Yeah, get that email list going.

[Doug]

Definitely. All right, well, thank you so much. I appreciate all that.

[Justin Andrews]

All right, Adrian, you got it, man.

[Sal DiStefano]

Thanks for calling.

[Justin Andrews]

Take it easy, bro.

[Doug]

Yeah, have a great day.

[Sal DiStefano]

You got it. Yeah. To take them from group to one on one, you need to have a buffer in between them them and trying to close them at the class.

[Justin Andrews]

People love those classes, dude.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And then they gotta leave too. Oh, I gotta get tick off. And I just finished my workout.

[Justin Andrews]

I, I, it was, the move was okay, I'm watching people, right? I see these same people in the class every day. I'll just use some common ones that were very easy. People that do repetitive movements, running on a treadmill circuit type training. You see all kinds of imbalances and deviations. Or I hear, or I hear them complaining, oh, my shin splints and my knees, knees and my hips. Okay, so I hear that, I hear people complaining about their hips. What do I know? I can see the way they're training. So they're running in the sagittal plane. They do everything in the sagittal plane. They don't do anything in multi planar movements. They don't do any sort of mobility to address that. So in after class, the next day. That's my tip. My tip is how to avoid hip pain.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

One of the things you must be doing are movements like this. By the way, if you want more.

[Sal DiStefano]

Information, I got this. That's right for you guys.

[Justin Andrews]

And then, and then when people go, oh, like, huh? What? And they either one ask me. You know what, hey, why don't you give me your number email, I'll call you. We can spend more time talking. I don't have time in their class or here's my free guide that goes into detail about what I'm talking about and now I capture that email. What I don't do right then is try and tell somebody like well I know why your hip hurts and then no, I I'm going to try and and drip education, information, science help value to get them to ask me a question. Once they ask me a question, that door is open. Now I can give them things like like the guides or a free call or an email.

[Sal DiStefano]

Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is @mindpumpjustin. I'm mindpump distepano adams@mindpump.

[Unknown]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically, improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, Performance and maps, aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.