2613: Five Common Fitness Lies That Are Holding You Back & More (Listener Coaching)

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth – Episode 2613 Summary

Release Date: June 6, 2025

Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Produced by: Doug Egge
Episode Title: Five Common Fitness Lies That Are Holding You Back & More (Listener Coaching)

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Introduction

In episode 2613 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth, hosts Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, and Doug Egge delve deep into debunking five pervasive fitness myths that hinder progress for many enthusiasts. Additionally, the episode features listener coaching segments where the hosts address personal struggles and provide expert advice.

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Five Common Fitness Lies

1. No Pain, No Gain Reimagined

• Discussion: The hosts challenge the age-old adage "No pain, no gain," emphasizing that while effort and challenge are essential, pain is not a prerequisite for progress. Sal suggests reframing the concept to "No challenge, no gain" to differentiate between productive struggle and detrimental pain.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [04:10]: "No pain, no gain... I’d like to change this because I'm going to make this more of an accurate statement. I'd like to say no challenge, no gain."

• Insights: Overtraining leads to plateaus, hormonal imbalances, and even regression in fitness. The hosts highlight that sustainable progress comes from balanced effort, allowing the body to adapt without excessive strain.

2. Carbs or Fat Are the Enemy

• Discussion: The debate between low-carb and low-fat diets has long polarized fitness enthusiasts. Initially, fat was vilified, only to be later replaced by carbohydrates as the new dietary foe. Sal explains the historical context, noting shifts from anti-fat campaigns in the '90s to the rise of low-carb diets like Atkins.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [17:17]: "Fat's essential. If your fat is too low, your body's not functioning well... you need fat to burn fat, to be healthy, to build muscle."

• Insights: The key to fat loss is maintaining a calorie deficit, not eliminating specific macronutrients. Carbohydrates, while non-essential, are beneficial for athletic performance and overall energy. Individual variations mean some thrive on higher carbs, while others do better with more fats.

3. Spot Reduction is Possible

• Discussion: The myth that exercising specific body parts can lead to targeted fat loss is thoroughly debunked. The hosts explain that fat loss occurs uniformly based on genetics and hormonal profiles, not localized exercise.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [26:25]: "You can't choose an area and burn body fat off of it. You just can't do that."

• Insights: While strength training can develop and tone specific muscles, making them appear leaner, actual fat loss from those areas is governed by the body's predetermined fat distribution patterns.

4. You Need Hours in the Gym

• Discussion: Contrary to popular belief, effective workouts don't require extended hours at the gym. Sal emphasizes that structured strength training sessions of about 45 minutes, a few times a week, are sufficient for significant progress.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [28:00]: "You need not much. Literally, literally the average person, a couple days a week, 45 minutes. Perfect. And that'll take you very far."

• Insights: Overtraining not only leads to diminishing returns but can also result in burnout and injury. The hosts advocate for quality over quantity, highlighting that well-programmed, shorter workouts can be more effective than prolonged, inefficient sessions.

5. Supplements are Essential for Progress

• Discussion: The hosts critically examine the supplement industry's influence, explaining that while certain supplements like vitamin D and creatine have proven benefits, most others offer minimal advantages.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [37:04]: "Supplements do very little. Unless you need a nutrient that you're deficient in... Supplements don't do much at all."

• Insights: Supplements should complement, not replace, a solid foundation of diet and exercise. The placebo effect often inflates the perceived benefits of many supplements, making it crucial to prioritize lifestyle factors over consumable products.

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Listener Coaching

Overcoming Personal Idols and Struggles

• Discussion: The hosts open up about their personal battles with idols—values or habits they overly prioritize. Sal shares his struggle with prioritizing workouts above all else, leading to frustration when life interferes. Adam discusses his challenges with materialism, recognizing it as both a strength and a weakness.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [46:27]: "Every day you're gonna die to yourself... You're gonna move away from what's most important."

• Insights: Acknowledging and managing personal idols is essential for maintaining balance. The hosts emphasize the importance of setting boundaries and reassessing priorities to prevent overcommitment to any single aspect of life, including fitness.

Strategies for Rest and Recovery

• Discussion: Addressing the listener's question on balancing hard work with necessary recovery, the hosts advocate for cognitive strategies to allow oneself to rest without feeling guilty. Adam likens fitness to baking a cake, where precision and balance are key, rather than continuously piling on effort.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [66:02]: "Every day you're gonna have to die to yourself... and work towards it."

• Insights: Effective recovery is not a sign of weakness but a strategic component of a successful fitness regimen. Incorporating rest days and listening to one's body enhances long-term progress and prevents overtraining.

Testosterone Replacement Therapy (TRT) Side Effects

• Discussion: The hosts clarify the context in which TRT is appropriate, emphasizing that when used to correct deficiencies under medical guidance, TRT can significantly improve health outcomes. They differentiate TRT from anabolic steroid abuse, which poses severe health risks.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [66:39]: "TRT is one of the safest hormones. It's actually one of the safest hormones you can take."

• Insights: Properly administered TRT can address issues like low testosterone, leading to better muscle mass, mood, and overall health. However, misuse or abuse of hormonal supplementation can lead to adverse effects.

Creating Effective Workout Programs

• Discussion: Programming workouts is more complex than it appears, requiring consideration of individual variables such as exercise selection, set and rep schemes, tempo, and progression. The hosts caution against "quick fixes" and stress the importance of scientifically-backed programs.

• Notable Quote:
  Sal Di Stefano [72:00]: "Programming is incredibly complex... but a good programmed workout is inexpensive."

• Insights: Utilizing well-designed programs, like those offered by Mind Pump, ensures balanced and effective training. Consistency and adherence to structured plans yield better results than random or haphazard workouts, regardless of duration or intensity.

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Conclusion

Episode 2613 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth provides a comprehensive examination of common fitness misconceptions, offering science-backed insights to help listeners navigate their health and fitness journeys more effectively. By debunking myths and addressing personal challenges, the hosts empower their audience to achieve sustainable and meaningful progress.

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Stay Connected:
Follow Mind Pump on Instagram @mindpumpmedia, @mindpumpsal, @mindpumpadam, @mindpumpjustin, and @mindpumpdoug. Visit mindpumppodcast.com for more information and training protocols.

Transcript

[Sal DiStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal DiStefano]

Up to 800 bucks and you still get to keep it. There's always a trade in. Not right now. At T Mobile. I feel like I have to give you something in return for karma. That's okay. I don't really have much in my purse. Oh, let's see. Hand sanitizer. It's lavender.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm good.

[Sal DiStefano]

Seriously. Let me check this pocket. Oh, mints. Really, I'm fine. Oh, I have raisins. I'm a mom. Wait, wait one sec. I've got cupcakes in the car. It's our best iPhone offer ever.

[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal DiStefano]

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[Sal DiStefano]

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[Justin Andrews]

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[Sal DiStefano]

Mind Pump.

[Justin Andrews]

With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaer.

[Sal DiStefano]

And Justin Andrews, you just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, we picked some questions from Instagram that our listeners sent us and we answer them. But this was after the intro. Today's intro is 55 minutes long. The intro is where we cover fitness studies, fat loss myths, we talk about current events, family life. It's a good time. By the way, if you want to post a question that we can pick from, go to Instagram. Mindpumpmedia. Now. This episode is Brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Our Place. This is the best cookware you'll find anywhere. And it's made without all those forever chemicals that are messing with your hormones, probably causing problems. They're connected to cancer. You don't want that crap. Go to Our place. Go to fromourplace.com, use the code mindpump. Get 10% off. By the way, you could use their stuff for a hundred days and return it for for a refund. So that's how confident they are in their products. This episode is also brought to you by Vuori. They make the best athleisure wear you'll find anywhere. Go to vuoriclothing.com mindpump that link will get you 20. We also have a sale on some program bundles, the two most popular ones we've ever had. Here they are the Shredded Summer Bundle and the Bikini Bundle. These are multiple programs put together designed to get you in shape, lean looking amazing. Both 50% off. Go to mapsfitnessproducts.com, use the code JUNE50 for the discount. Here comes the show. If you believe the following lies, the following five common fitness lies, you are completely holding back your progress. Now, don't feel bad. A lot of people believe them to be true, but we're gonna correct things for you. Here we go.

[Doug]

Correction.

[Adam Schafer]

I like this.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

I don't know where this. Where did this stem from for you? Did you see something or come across an article or what prompted this?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, just thinking about, like, what are the most common reasons that the average person just either plateaus, doesn't see results, or gets turned in the wrong direction? I'll start with the first one. It's an old saying. There's a little bit of truth to it, but I think it's caused. Actually, I'm positive it's caused more damage. Yeah. Than progress. And that's the old adage. No pain, no gain. Okay, so this, this was. This is old, by the way. I think was invented back in the. I want to say the 60s, maybe 70s. And people, a lot of people believe this even if they haven't heard this before. Right. They think that pain in the workout.

[Doug]

Pain through the journey, it's weakness leaving your body.

[Sal DiStefano]

This is what gets right. This is what get gets. And I would like to change this because I'm going to make this more of an accurate statement. I'd like to say no challenge, no gain. There's a difference between pain and challenge. And the truth is, with your workouts, hard is fine. It's going to be hard pain. Most people don't know how to differentiate between good and bad pain or what kind of pain they should be feeling. So what they tend to do, especially in the early stages of fitness, when they're motivated by self hate, is they seek out the kind of pain that typically means you're doing things wrong.

[Doug]

Pain, really? I mean, I would call it struggle.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's right, Challenge or struggle.

[Doug]

Yeah, because it's just, it's not, that's not the feeling you have going through that. Like if you do have pain and it's like a legit pain signal, that's really bad.

[Adam Schafer]

No, it's totally bad. It's even on the sore side. If you were that sore, it's painful to get up or move or soar to the touch. You ruined your work. That was not good. It's not ideal whatsoever. So I, yeah, it's, it's manifested in the, in the fitness space as no days off. I mean, that, that type of attitude, which I feel, obviously we've been screaming that from the rooftops for quite some time. But I, I just think that one of the most common things that we get is once we convince people that it doesn't have to be that difficult, there's a much smarter, better approach, more sustainable to health and fitness. You can, I can always see the difference of that the person when we're talking on air or that we meet there, that light bulb had switched and they're just like, oh my God. I remember it in Katrina. I remember Katrina looking at me and going like, this is crazy. I feel like I'm, I'm trying at 50% of what I was trying before half the time inside the gym, not running like crazy, not going from these, eating, not good. Then all of a sudden starving myself. It's like she goes, I feel more fat. I'm eating more than I've ever made before. I'm only strength training a few times a week, no running whatsoever. And I'm in the best shape of my life. It's like. And this is her figuring this out into her 30s, you know, after, after decades of Athlete. Yes, after decades of being an athlete, a collegiate level athlete, and thinking that she knew what she was doing back then, and then realizing, oh, wow, there is a much better approach.

[Sal DiStefano]

We have to understand kind of where this comes from. So there's a few roots that feed into this, into this, this false adage. One of them is oftentimes the people that get a lot of attention in the fitness and health space are fitness fanatics, orthorexics, people with body dysmorphia, or even people who've accomplished a lot in some kind of a fitness related or physical related field. Now, I will say this, there is some mental discipline benefits to pain, but it applies to a very small percentage of people. Like if you are competing at a very high level, that you need to learn how to deal with pain. Because when you compete, this is what you're gonna be dealing with. Now, the average person, you don't need to train this at all. Or if you do train this kind of mental discipline, don't worry, it'll come just from being consistent, just from maintaining consistency. That's where you're gonna get this, this mental discipline. Now, if I'm training a soldier, if I'm training a somebody who's about to go into a fight in an mma, you know, in a cage. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna have some practices that are gonna push your mental limits. Has nothing to do with improving your fitness, has nothing to do with building muscle, has nothing to do with making you, giving you more stamina, more strength. It's everything to do with. You gotta just weather the storm. Because when you're in the ring or the cage or you're on the battlefield, that is what's gonna be important. But for most people, like 99% of people, not only is that not something you should train regularly at all, but what it does, it actually stops your progress or sends you backwards. Here's why. Exercise is a stimulus for adaptation. It's the adaptation that is the improved fitness. Okay? Getting stronger, getting leaner, improving some stamina, feeling better, having less pain. Those are all adaptations from the stress of exercise. If the stress from the exercise exceeds your body's ability to adapt, you're just recovering, you're just healing. And if you push it beyond that, you can't even recover. And you break things down. This is where you get hormone issues.

[Doug]

You're just beating yourself up.

[Sal DiStefano]

This is when you feel like, I'm working so hard. I can't believe, why am I not losing weight? I have this stubborn body fat on my body. Why is my body not responding? I'm killing myself in the gym, I'm super sore. What's happening? Well, here's what you did. You've exceeded your body's ability to adapt. Now the question is, what is my ability to adapt? Or what does that look like? It depends on your fitness level, it depends on your lifestyle, and it's a lot less than most people Realize the other route that feeds into this is how people tend to go into fitness when they first get motivated. You take the average 30 something year old who's like, I need to lose weight, I need to get in shape. And it usually comes from this place of, oh my God, I'm fat, I'm gross, I'm unattractive, I'm inadequate, whatever. So they kind of start hating themselves. So when they go to the gym, and here's what feels good when you hate yourself in the short term, it feels good to beat yourself up. It's cathartic to punish yourself in the gym. And how many times have you guys heard this from people? How was that workout? Oh my God, I barely crawled that. I almost threw up.

[Adam Schafer]

I crushed it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Great workout. What? What do you mean great workout? Oh, yeah, I could barely walk the next day. It was awesome. The reason why it feels cathartic is because you're punishing yourself because you hate yourself, you hate your body. And so it feeds into this. But again, not only is this less effective, it's actually the opposite of effective. It actually sends people backwards. This is where you get people with hormone issues. This will destroy testosterone levels in men, it'll cause HPA axis dysfunction in women. And in men, where your estrogen and cortisol and progesterone are thrown off, you get thyroid issues from this. If you push this for too long. This number, this, this. The reason why this one's number one is because it's probably the biggest. It's besides people just not being consistent or not trying. When people actually do apply themselves, this is the roadblock that gets in their way. And this is what stops people from getting results.

[Doug]

The most common misconception, I think, I.

[Adam Schafer]

Think, I think part of the problem is too is that they get some sort of positive feedback from it, right? Like take somebody who has not been exercising at all, eating terrible, no, no workouts, no nothing at all. And then all of a sudden New Year's resolution comes around and it's like.

[Sal DiStefano]

And they go ape.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm going to go every day. I'm not. That's going to be my new thing is I'm not going to miss any day, right? And so they train every day for a month now. At the end of that month, if they compared themselves to where they're at, compared to where they were two months prior, so well before they started, they would probably report back a fitter, healthier version of themselves. And so there's a bit of this, like feedback that they get that that is positive. Now, what they don't know is that they could have done a fraction of that work and been further than where they currently are.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. And I'll add one thing to that, Adam. They're not healthier. So what happens with people when they do this that first month or two? Because we've seen this, we manage gyms and we ran in, we worked in gyms for decades. They will see the scale move, but their health hasn't improved. The problem is, is they don't. They're not gauging their success based off their health, they're gauging it off the scale. So if they really were paying attention, like, man, I feel like crap, I am tired.

[Adam Schafer]

There's still, there's still some positive feedbacks from you. You could dramatically impact your VO2 max, for example, in a month's time.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

So if that person did some sort of a test where they're like, I'm going to run a mile before I start.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, I see what you're saying they're able to do. They'll be able to do a harder work.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, they'll be able to do a better mile.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

They'll be able to like, so they, if they before or their first time, day one, they ran a 12 minute mile and then by the end that month they're now running a nine minute mile.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

You think that you are dramatically improving the right direction. Yeah. You think you're moving in the right direction. And it's really hard to convince that person that you could have been a lot further, doing a lot less. And in fact, they think that this is just because everyone talks about how hard it is and no pain, no gain, and no days off. This is how it's supposed to be. I'm supposed to train this hard. And this is why people give up is because they get that feedback and they go, okay, oh, let's go month two. And they go. And then eventually it. Those returns diminish. Yeah. So that stops. Yeah. Then it really starts to slow down and then they're still telling themselves, man, this is what it takes. And then they finally go, like, I don't even know if I really want this.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, it's like nothing's happening. Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I got to, I got to train every day and push this hard and I get this much results cycle of.

[Doug]

Like emotions, you know, it goes so common.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'll tell you guys, I got to tell, listen, I got to tell the audience, like, we saw so many people like this in our gyms who Were beating. I can pick them out, by the way, because I've been doing this for so long. I can pick them out a mile away. They're in the gym, they're sweating their butts off. They're working so hard. Nothing's changed for a long time. And they're going. And they're going. Nothing's changed. They still have another 20 pounds to lose. They're not getting more fit. They're not improving anything. And they're just beating themselves up, hoping that something magically is going to happen. And it doesn't. And instead what happens is they push hard. People who are really persistent with this. These are the people I feel bad for because, dude, then they start to hit these hormone imbalances and these issues that start to backfire. And then they're like, what's. Why is my.

[Doug]

Used to be such a mystery to me.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug]

As a new trainer.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Doug]

You know, you'd walk around, you'd see these people just going after it, man. This person's, like, getting it.

[Adam Schafer]

I know.

[Doug]

And then you see them day after day after day, and there's no progress. And then it just. I was like, wow. It got depressing actually watching.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, I used to chalk it up. This is what I used to think. I used to think, man, these people must be eating boxes.

[Sal DiStefano]

They must have the worst.

[Adam Schafer]

They must have the worst. They must go home donuts immediately. They must stop at McDonald's on the way home from here or something. And that's just Must be there. They must really struggle in nutrition because they're definitely putting the work in to not. Not be feeling and looking like the way they are. And so that was like, what I just assumed. I assumed everybody was just so horrible with the diet.

[Sal DiStefano]

These clients were both the best and worst clients. I'll start with why they were the worst. They were the worst. It was so hard to convince them.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

That doing less would get them better results. They were so afraid of bullheaded, of letting go because they're like, well, if I'm doing all this work just to maintain the 15 pounds I initially lost the second I cut it in half, oh, my God, I'm gonna go backwards completely, and then I'm gonna be totally screwed. So they were the worst because I had to try to convince them. And eventually I got really good at convincing them. But once they got convinced they were the best because. And this. And you said. You said it in the beginning. This is what they would say. Like clockwork. In fact, I used to actually used to do this with some of these clients, I would write on a piece of paper and I would date it and I'd fold it and I'd say this, I'm going to save this and I'm going to tape it shut and I'm going to open it one day to show you something really cool. They'd be, what are you talking about? Don't worry. And then the day would come, usually 60 days later, when I convinced them they're doing half as much work, they're eating more food. Then they'd come to me and they'd say, this is weird. I don't know what's happening. Like, I'm getting leaner. My husband's commenting on things, I'm doing way less work. Then I'd open up the paper and I'd show them that they would get. They would say that and it was like, boom. Now, selfishly, I did that to sell them more training. So I was like, look, I told you, now you can hire me for a year, I'm a wizard. But it was like clockwork that people have that. We have callers all the time that call in, you know, we have these kind of, these follow ups. All right, I did what you said and I can't believe how much better I look and how much better I feel.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

You have to predictable. You have to think of your workouts like a prescription drug. Too little, you're not going to get the effect. Too much will kill you. What determines the dose is your current fitness level and your lifestyle, meaning the other stresses in your life, your age, all that stuff, and your current fitness level. And if you're doing it and you've only started, it doesn't take much to have the perfect dose, not much to get the ball moving, but the perfect dose. And by the way, advanced people with fitness tend to do this as well because they start with the perfect dose, they slowly veer towards the max. I could do, which takes away, by the way, that's me all the time. It's something I always struggle with. All right, next up, carbs or fat? Those are the enemy. Now, this used to be fat, and then for a while it used to just be carbs. So when we first got into fitness, when I first became a trainer late 90s, that was like the tail end of the anti fat, non fat milk. Yeah. Campaign. Right. And everybody was super scared of fat. And. And it was really difficult convincing my clients, especially my female clients, to eat more fat.

[Doug]

But when they did, butter was the enemy.

[Sal DiStefano]

It was amazing at the hormonal effects and the skin effects and the, you know, the, the benefits that they got because fat's essential.

[Adam Schafer]

How's it do you guys. You know, we say this a lot. I'm just sorry for interrupting you, but I want Doug to look something up while you're talking. Do you think that like for non fat milk sales have dramatically increased or decreased since our time or do you think it stayed the same or maybe even increased?

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I think it's declined.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay. So I would love to know if.

[Sal DiStefano]

Non fat is declined. Low fat I think might have been a little stable. Whole milk probably went up a bit.

[Adam Schafer]

So that's what I'm curious, especially when you look at the studies because based off of what we're saying is that there was this huge craze around not taking in fat. I definitely know that was like staple when we were, when we were trainers, early trainers. So. And I feel like that's shifted to carbs and other things. And so it's no longer we don't demonize fat like we used to. But are we seeing that in, in sales?

[Sal DiStefano]

That's a great metric. Yes. Sales of non fat milk have generally declined compared to other types. Whole milk and 2% have seen a resurgence. Skim milk sales have been on their lowest level since 1960s.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay, okay, so that is true.

[Doug]

I remember doing low fat just because I was like, I refused because it just the taste and everything else I.

[Sal DiStefano]

Was like, of non fat, it's water awful.

[Doug]

Yeah. And, and then obviously I progressed to whole milk. But yeah, we, we did low fat.

[Adam Schafer]

We grew up on 2%. I mean that's what. Yeah, we are same. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, it's funny too because the studies come out showing showed that non fat milk caused vitamin D deficiencies because they would add vitamin D to the milk. There's no fat. It's a fat soluble vitamin and kids were getting all these deficiencies from it. Whereas whole milk, you get the, absorb the fat soluble nutrients. Yeah, fat was the enemy for a long time. But fat is essential. If your fat is too low, your body's not functioning well. Good luck, good luck trying to feel healthy. Good luck having healthy skin or hair. Good luck trying to burn body fat properly. Good luck having a good hormone profile if your fat is.

[Adam Schafer]

And this is so important that there's many. And we get this a lot on callers where we're talking to them for a while and they're giving us these, these signs that man, they might be, they sound like they're deficient and they're. But they're doing everything else really well. Good balanced workout, good balanced diet.

[Sal DiStefano]

What's your fat intake?

[Adam Schafer]

And then hear their fat intake and they're like 30 grams or 50 grams a day. And we're like, oh, wow, bump that.

[Doug]

Every meat is super lean.

[Adam Schafer]

And then it just from that just. They don't even change their macros that much or change anything going on with their routine is literally just giving their body. And then all of a sudden they.

[Sal DiStefano]

Report back, listen, if you. You could eat. Okay, okay. You can eat 10,000 calories a day, but if you don't have enough fat, if you had a 10,000 calorie diet with zero grams of fat, you're dead.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Your body starves.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, literally, you die. I love using the. I thought this was such a cool example for people to see. This is. What's that show called? The Alone. Or l. Alone, I think. And you've had contestants that had to go home and they had a.

[Doug]

Starving to death.

[Adam Schafer]

They got a huge kill. They got like, like, like a bunch of rabbits, probably. Yes. They had rabbit or they have all this. And you thought, oh, my God, They. They got all this meat. And they. But they were so. It was such lean cuts.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

That they literally had. They were. They were going to fish.

[Sal DiStefano]

They used to call that rabbit starvation. I think it was. Maybe Dougie could look it up. This is where hunters would starve because all they could catch were. Was rabbit and rabbit. So lean.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, they.

[Sal DiStefano]

They didn't get enough fat. No, no. You need fat to burn fat. You need fat to be healthy. You need fat to build muscle. You need fat to be alive. So that one now, now, that one's not as big of a deal as it used to be, but what happened in the late 90s is you had the Atkins Diet came out. And this was a doctor that came out that said, hey, fat's not the bad thing. It's carbs. He had people go, zero carb bump their fat. And it was so opposite of the previous message that people adopted it and then saw great results. Now, carbs. Carbs are not essential. So you can definitely eat zero carbs for the rest of your life and you won't die like you will from not having enough fat. However, they're not the enemy. Carbohydrates, their preferred source of energy for athletic performance. You need carb. You want carbs for athletic performance. Building muscle is possible without carbs, but it's just way harder.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Good luck trying to do it, it's.

[Adam Schafer]

Also a super miserable way to live. It's also great immediate energy. Let's just be honest. Like regardless of that, you could, you could make it without it. It's so many things have carbs in it and so many things that we enjoy. And I, and we've talked about this before, that there, there is some hedonistic values to food that are, that make sense at certain times. If you don't eat carbs, you're not having cake at your, like that's lame. Who wants to do that? You know what I'm saying? You're not going to be able to take your, your five year old son to his first movie and have popcorn with him. That's lame. Like, who wants.

[Doug]

It's also very extreme. Yeah, I was going to say the fruit. Like you meet people that are like, they'll avoid it because. Oh no, there's car.

[Sal DiStefano]

I remember when, when Atkins first came out and it was like, everybody's like, oh, I knew it, it was fat. They were lying to us. You know, it wasn't fat. And then they were like, no, no, I can't eat that apple sugar too much. I remember thinking to myself like that's doesn't sound right.

[Doug]

There's so many nutrients and benefits. Come on.

[Sal DiStefano]

If you want, if you want to burn body fat, so long as you're, you hit your essential nutrients, although above essential in many cases is optimal, like protein for example. But let's just put that aside. If you want to burn body fat, you just have to be in a calorie deficit. So you know, essential nutrients aside, it's a calorie deficit that causes fat loss. So it's not the carbs or the fats that, that make you gain body fat. It's excess, excessive carbohydrate. Excuse me, excessive calories. So they're not the enemy. Now carbohydrates again, because they're non essential. I do. My experience with clients is there's a wide individual variance with carbohydrates. This is the macro I play with depending on the person. Some clients feel great on much lower carbohydrates, other clients feel great on much higher carbohydrates. And there seems to be a pretty wide spectrum with my clients. Fat different, you need essential fat. But carbs, this is where you can move around a little bit.

[Doug]

Manipulated.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

I always felt that it's kind of your, your body kind of tells you that when you eat appropriately in the order we talk about, which is if you Go after protein first you get your healthy fats that you need to. And then the carbohydrates. It's like it almost. It almost takes care of itself. If you eat an hour. Where it gets out of control is when you eat the carbs first, and then you. And you fill up on that, and then you don't get enough of your protein or you don't get enough of your healthy fats. That's where you go wrong. If you just planned your meal out, forget that you're going to tell yourself how much carbs, even just go, I'm going to eat the protein, the healthy fats first, and then I'm going to make my way over the carbohydrates.

[Sal DiStefano]

It almost takes care of itself, by the way. I got to just share this. Oftentimes when you eat a meal, it's typically served carbohydrates first and people. I don't know if anybody wonders this, but I thought about this a long time ago. Like, why is that the order? Why is it the order? Especially with old cultures like Italy or any. They serve the carbohydrates first. Why is that? So I read up and looked into it. Here's why. Meat was expensive, so sometimes that was all you ate. So all you ate sometimes was pasta or rice or bread. And that's why the meat tends to be saved towards the end. But the reality is.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, it makes a lot of sense coming from. I mean, we gotta remember we've only been living in this time of abundance for a very fraction. A fraction. Very, very. So it makes sense. For most of history, you did eat that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Like, that's all you had.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. And it's like, yeah, I only get so many calories. We only have this. We have a. We have a ton of rice and pasta. You know, I'm saying you can either have nothing or you can have that. It's like, yeah, let's see. I'm gonna eat that. I'm gonna eat a lot of it, too. So it makes sense that we've. We've done that for a long time.

[Sal DiStefano]

I remember my grandfather explaining this to me, like a staple. My family's from Italy, right? Sicily, which was like the poorest part of Italy. And I remember talking to my grandfather, and I love pasta with sauce. Don't get me wrong, it's delicious. Homemade sauce is amazing. And I remember telling my grandfather, like, why is that such a staple meal? Why did you guys eat this so often? He goes, it's cheap.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

He goes, sometimes that's all we. A lot of times that's all we had. Tomatoes are cheap, we grow them. Pasta's cheap.

[Adam Schafer]

Plus Mexicans eat rice all the time. Making them. Rice and beans. Rice and beans is cheaper than a lot of.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Potatoes.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

Seriously, I mean, if you go back, if you trace it back to all of our ancestors like that, that would be. That that was the purpose of those foods. It wasn't just necessarily because you. You liked them or whatever, but it was like it was. You could eat a lot off of it.

[Sal DiStefano]

My grandfather said they, you eat meat once a week because it was, it was so expensive.

[Adam Schafer]

Wow. That little.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, once a week. If they were lucky, they would have meat.

[Adam Schafer]

So I mean, maybe that's why too we're in this position is like. And I guess that's a good reminder even for us is just like, honestly, we are battling against, you know, hundreds of years of history of eating a certain way.

[Doug]

It's a brand new problem.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. And it's like this. And really, even in our time, it' been a major problem for like 50 years. Maybe, you know, 40, 50 years. It's become. Because we have so much.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

Processed foods and abundance that now it's like, oh, we need to really rethink now.

[Sal DiStefano]

You can prioritize.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, we need to rethink that. It wasn't like that for the most.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, you won't die from eating too little nowadays, but you'll probably die from obesity. And so the priority with your meal is protein first, then you can eat your. And protein typically comes with fats. Then eat your carbohydrates. All right, next one. This one still exists, which is spot reduction. Okay. I cannot choose a part of my body that I want to burn body fat off of and then exercise in a particular way to burn body fat from that area. Yeah, that's not how fat loss works. Your body looks at all of your body fat as a reserve and it pulls from the body fat in the areas that it wants to. Now what determines where your body pulls body fat, body fat, energy from, is genetics and hormone profile. If I train my abs, I'm not going to burn more fat around my abs. It's going to come from where my body wants to reduce it from. Now you can spot develop. So here's the good news. I'll give you guys the good news, especially with strength training. I can take a body part and develop it through strength training, which can give it the appearance of looking leaner. Like a leg that has muscle and body fat looks Leaner than a leg that has no muscle and body fat. So that may be why this myth continues to live. But no, you can't spot reduce. So doing a bunch of exercise for area doesn't make body fat. There's a lot better.

[Adam Schafer]

A very specific avatar that I think of right away, and I know you guys have seen it in the gym for many, many years, is the client who would come in and remember those assisted sit up machines?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And they would spend the whole hour just doing that. Rocky. Yeah. Legs up, side.

[Doug]

Oh, my God.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what I'm saying?

[Doug]

For hours.

[Adam Schafer]

An hour. An hour. You know what I'm. And just like a, you know, a big old beer belly going on and it's like, yeah, that is not going.

[Doug]

To get burping away.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's also that we say burn fat so they feel the burn in that area. So, like, that's where I'm burning the fat.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, it doesn't work that way. If you want to change how your body stores body fat, you have to either change your parents, which you can't, so your genetics, but you can change your hormone profile. So as women get older, if their estrogen starts to drop or if your cortisol is elevated for too long, this is both in men and women. You can store more body fat in your midsection. Low testosterone. Men will start storing body fat more like a woman. So hormones can affect that. But the best way to affect your hormones, aside from hormone therapy, is to be healthy and fit. But you can't choose an area and burn body fat off of it. You just can't do that. All right, next, this one I love, which is you need hours in the gym. I need to do hours in the gym. Not true at all. We'll speak just to strength training because the strength training is the one form of exercise. Unless you have a specific endurance goal or something like that. Strength training, really the only structured form of exercise that people need to do. When I say people, I'm talking about people who want to be more fit, more healthy, look better, but really just live a good life. So they're not like bodybuilders. They're not long distance runners. They're not athletes. They're just like, look, I want to get fit and healthy so I can have a great life. The structured part of their workouts is strength training. That's the one that you need to plan. And I'm not going to make. This is 100% true. All the data in the world will support it. Plus all of our experience, you need not much. Literally, literally the average person, a couple days a week, 45 minutes. Perfect. And that'll take you very far.

[Doug]

This is one of those things I just like all the time keep. It's so crazy to think about. Like doing less is going to move the needle more and it keeps playing out. If you establish a good foundational strength, like what you can do after that, it's like, it's just mind boggling. Even self experimenting, doing less and then being able to see how much more progression I get and strength and muscle development. But it's just, we don't think in that direction ever because again we always bring this up because like work in everything else, like life is so opposite, you know, to that. So. But the body is such a, an adaptation machine and we have to realize that we're, we're dealing with something different. We have to apply the, the right amount that you need.

[Adam Schafer]

Fitness is more like baking a cake than it is like work or getting good at a sport.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And that's hard to wrap your brain around it because it's a physical activity.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's like making a cake and you're like one cup of flour, you're like, I'm gonna add two.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, that's what, that's what I mean by that. If you think about that, think about that for a second. Most people relate fitness closer to like playing a sport or work when it's actually closer to making a cake. And that just doesn't, that doesn't compute for the average person. But it is. And what I mean by making a cake is that there's an actual formula and recipe to bake a good cake.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

And any more or less of those things doesn't make a great cake.

[Doug]

Takes you away.

[Adam Schafer]

And the more you pile onto, the worse it gets. Like you just keep piling too much flour and it doesn't have the right balance of eggs and it just, it's gonna be terrible or it won't even work.

[Sal DiStefano]

Our most popular program to date with the greatest reviews and the most surprising, you know, emails. I mean surprising from the people themselves, like, oh my God, I can't believe it is our Maps 15 program. Okay, listen, it's even from advanced lifters. It is 15 to 20 minutes a day. That's it. And, and everybody's like, I can't believe it.

[Adam Schafer]

Now I have a theory on. Because that's so true. I mean it's, it's surpassed everything that we've done and it's. And obviously if you listen. If you actually listen to a podcast that's about fitness, you're probably more about it than the average person. Right. And so I think we've attracted a community of people that are fitness, you know, enthusiasts, or at least want to be fitness enthusiasts. Right. Like, you're not only going to the gym, you're also listening to your fitness podcast. You want to be that person. And so we tend to get a. A subset of people that are more likely probably to over. To over apply than to not. And I know that's why sometimes people hear that advice that we give and they get so like, oh, those guys. Like, that's crazy. Look at all the people that are sitting on their couch and doing nothing. Like, they like, that's terrible advice. It's like, well, that's not really. Who's listening to this podcast? Like, very few people are actually. Actually probably nobody right now is sitting on the couch. This would be funny to get an email or somebody or.

[Sal DiStefano]

Who doesn't.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Who's. Who's pounding some cake right now listening to the podcast? Like, it's just.

[Sal DiStefano]

There's one guy, right? Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

He's like, oh.

[Sal DiStefano]

You know, it would.

[Adam Schafer]

Be funny to get there. But I mean, most of the people probably right now are walking on a treadmill or in the middle of the gym workout right now are on their way to, like, that's what we get, right?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. One thing I got to add to this, by the way, is because people, when they hear me say, or hear us say, you only need, you know, two days a week, 45 minutes or 15 minutes a day or whatever. What they think we're talking about is activity. No, I'm talking about workouts.

[Doug]

No workout.

[Sal DiStefano]

Daily activity is good. Like walk, you know, 10,000 steps, 15,000 steps a day. That's good for you.

[Doug]

That's healthy.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, I'm talking about workouts, structured workouts. You don't need hours in the gym to progress. In fact, the best data that we have on strength training with college aged experienced males. So that might not even be you. Right. So if you're in your 40s, like, it's even less than what I'm about to say. The vast majority of results that they get from strength training comes from three days a week. When they add more, the results become massively diminishing. So it's like 85% of the results they're going to get comes from three days a week. Then they add another day a week, another 5%. Then they add another day a week, 3% it's very, very diminishing results. By the way, when you see bodybuilders training so long, they're pro bodybuilders. Yes, of course they're training as much as they are, but not they even understand if they do too much. In fact, I remember in the 90s there was a huge revolution in pro bodybuilding because up until the mid-90s or early-90s, bodybuilders were just more, more, more, more, more. Then you had Dorian Yates, who changed the game, who was doing his workouts were one tenth of what the other workouts were. Now they were intense, but they were like so much less. And he changed the game. And to this day, now, bodybuilders now really understand this, this, this delicate balance.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, this is the time and temperature of baking the cake. You know what I'm saying? The, the more and the hotter you run it, the better.

[Sal DiStefano]

Imagine if someone's like, oh, this is perfect, let's just keep cooking. Yeah, yeah, it's going to come out better.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. I mean, that's the back to that analogy of this is more like baking a cake. It is, there's a, there's a right temperature, there's a right time to do it, which your balance of how many days in the intensity that you use. And there is a, a sweet spot to make the best cake and any. And you can get away with a couple degrees up or down, right? Or a couple minutes too long or not long enough, you can get away with a little bit. But the longer you extend that out, the worst this cake's gonna taste, man. You start applying way more temperature and way more days, structure of it will burn the out of. It's gonna be terrible. So there is a sweet spot that is ideal for baking that perfect cake.

[Sal DiStefano]

Lastly, it's that supplements have this massive effect on my progress, that supplements are somehow the answer. Now this is. Here's why this one exists, okay. When you look at the industry of fitness or fat loss or health or, you know, all that stuff, right? If you look at the industry, it's an industry, yeah. Meaning it needs to generate revenue. It exists because it's able to generate revenue. If there was no revenue generated, the industry would shrink and would be an industry. Just a pretty. Now when you look at the industry, what generates revenue are consumable products, okay? That's just a fact. So the information that's put out by the industry tends to be geared towards products that they can sell. So what you have is a disproportionate amount of Information geared towards products you can buy. Okay? So this creates this distorted effect, over emphasizing it. So it's a distorted effect. And it's not that they're evil, some of them are. It's not that they just want money, don't care about you, although some of them do. It's just that a lot of the information is geared towards consumable products. So when you go and you read up about fitness, 8 out of 10 articles are going to be about stuff you can take, even diet articles you're going to read about, you're going to see them talk about supplements, training articles talk about exercise, they throw in supplements. So you get this belief as a consumer that wow, supplements make a big difference.

[Doug]

What's going to really tip you over to buy it? You know, it can't just be like, they can't be like super honest with. It's going to, you know, make a little bit of a difference.

[Sal DiStefano]

Supplements do very little. Unless you need a nutrient that you're deficient in, which is different. That's like a medical issue. Even the most amazing, powerful data backed supplement, creatine, okay, Creatine has all the studies like you look at all the studies that support supplements. Creatine is in a completely different category. You know what's going to add to your progress? 2%. And by the way, that's a lot in comparison to other supplements. Yeah, but it's nothing in comparison to lifestyle, exercise, diet, everything else you need to highlight. That's right. So, so I would say don't even waste your time unless you know, you like them, you enjoy them, you're doing the other stuff, right? It helps you stay motivated, whatever. But supplements don't do much at all. And by the way, I'm saying this as a host of a podcast that's sponsored by supplement companies, it's the absolute truth.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, I've always positioned it with clients that if you have the expendable, expendable income and you like to take stuff like that and experiment with it, then why not? Because it does. There, there is plenty of research to support that. They have value and they work. But when you think of all the things that we're going to talk about and I'm going to do with you, when I'm training you, it matters like nothing, it really matter. I mean, I, I can take that same client and we can, we can fast forward three months of perfect dieting, training, sleeping, doing all the things, both versions, one version use supplements and one did, and you wouldn't see a difference. No, you would not be able to tell. So both clients, identical situation. The only difference is one took supplements and the other one didn't. You visually be able to see difference, and more likely than not, they wouldn't even be able to feel.

[Sal DiStefano]

You would be able to visually see a smaller wallet and the person that.

[Doug]

You know, fix their posture because their wallets.

[Sal DiStefano]

Early in my career, I pushed supplements because this is what we were encouraged to do working in gyms. Later in my career, very, very few of my clients that I encouraged to take supplements, and they were the ones that were, like, really into it. Like Doug. Doug won. He was my client. He never missed the workout. He ate right. He was really into the point where now he's, you know, part owner of a fitness podcast with us. Right. He was fun to have experiment with supplements because he likes that kind of stuff.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

But nine out of ten of my clients, like, I don't. Unless it's a nutrient deficiency.

[Adam Schafer]

I was like, well, and that's where it. It is a. Is a fun thing to do, is when they're. They're already doing the big rocks and it's like, hey, let's add this, see if you feel it or notice it. And it's. It's more like that than it. Because if you're not sleeping well, you're not training correctly, and your diet is shit. Talk about a complete waste of money.

[Sal DiStefano]

The vast majority of supplements are outperformed by the placebo effect. That's a fact. That's an actual, literal fact. So they're not the difference between success and failure. So don't waste your time. Again, unless there's a nutrient deficiency, in which case it makes a difference. Speaking of which, vitamin D, very cheap. You can go to the store. You could buy it. It costs almost nothing. Very inexpensive. Vitamin D is a. As a supplement in its own category, mainly because it's such a common deficiency. I brought up the. The latest studies. I'll read to you guys right now. The latest studies on vitamin D. And it's. Again, it's not because vitamin D is magic. It's just because we just. We're so. It's so commonly a deficiency. Or even more commonly, we're not getting optimal amounts. So we might not have a deficiency, but we're not getting the amount that really is optimal for us. Remember, consider we evolved really being out in the sun quite a bit. Okay. So we were always, always, always out in the sun before, and now we're just so, so often. Not that this has become a problem. But they have. I found one study that was in 2024, this European Journal of Cancer, showing that people who took vitamin D or had adequate vitamin D levels had a dramatic reduction in cancer and overall cancer risk. There was another one with biological aging. This one just got published in 2025 from the American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Supplementing with 2000ius of vitamin D reduced the measurable effects we can see on like our DNA and stuff of aging, so seem to slow down cellular aging. Another one shows dementia. Vitamin D supplementation was associated with a 40% lower risk of dementia in adults, which is pretty crazy. It's 2024. These are all recent studies. This one was done in Switzerland. This was out of Lua Seine. It's called vitamin D deficiency was linked to an increased likelihood of all cardiovascular events. And then lastly, vitamin D and immune response. It has a profound effect on immune system. But again, it's not that vitamin D is magic, it's that we're so often vitamin deficient that you probably should supplement with this very inexpensive supplement. I think it's 10 bucks. We probably buy you a bottle of vitamin D that lasts.

[Adam Schafer]

My favorite part about this advice is what I recently found out from you was that I could take seven days worth in one day and not take it like so this is fat soluble. Oh man, this has been a huge hack for me because I always knew that I was supposed to be taking like 5 to 10,000 IUs is what was recommended to me for my doctor.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. By the way, you get your blood tested so you see where it brings you.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, right. So I, I, that was, I originally was taking five and then it was, I was still low. So Dr. Recommend 10. And so, and I just, I've admitted that I'm just inconsistent when it comes to taking supplements every single day. I didn't realize that I could just take five of those pills in one day. And then, so now the way I look at is like I've got it in my room and I try and remember, I try and remember to do it daily. I don't. And then I go, oh shit, I haven't taken that like three days, I'll take three of them. You know what I'm saying? So it's just, I didn't realize I could do that and still reap the, the max benefits from it. It's like, oh my God, that's easy. So it's not a hard one either to take. And you can make up for it if you, if you're not taking it.

[Sal DiStefano]

The Range of deficiency is between people. Somewhere like some categories or groups of people. 80% deficient, which is below what is necessary. So like African Americans, 80% of them are deficient in vitamin D because they produce less when they're out in the sun. If you're really pale, you're probably still deficient, just not as high, by the way, when that's deficient, not optimal. When it go. When you go to optimal, you're probably looking at most people, period. End of story. Yeah, I use my dad as an example all the time. My dad had all these strange symptoms of pain. Thought it was age, thought it was arthritis. And we're Sicilian, right. So we have darker skin. But my dad was always outside. My dad's outside doing yard work and stuff like that. He's outside more than most people and he had all these weird symptoms. Dr. Finally, after prescribing him pain medicine, this and that. Let's just test your nutrient levels. He was severely deficient in vitamin D.

[Doug]

You wouldn't think that would be, you know, the cause of pain.

[Sal DiStefano]

Typically, no crazy, crazy stuff. Anyway, along those lines, I was looking up other studies on Forever Chemicals. Boy, these things suck, guys. Oh, yeah, dude, it's. It's terrible.

[Doug]

I've heard. I've heard stuff.

[Adam Schafer]

And speaking of those, we got our. Our place pans. I got mine yesterday. I didn't open them up yet.

[Sal DiStefano]

They make them without Forever Chemicals.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And they last a long time. They're super high quality. You know, that's what I'm going.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, while you're looking that up, the. I. Justin was. I was telling Justin about we all got ours and I hadn't opened up what Katrina ordered, but Justin was telling me they have other stuff too.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, they have like, like air fryer skillets.

[Doug]

They have all kinds of steam inf use.

[Sal DiStefano]

Some of the highest website up.

[Adam Schafer]

I want to see. I. I thought I had already gone.

[Sal DiStefano]

Through, but some of the highest Forever Chemical containing cooking products are pans. And even more than that, air fryers.

[Doug]

Really?

[Sal DiStefano]

Air fryers are through the roof now. Of course, our place doesn't use Forever Chemicals. All their stuff is Forever chemical free.

[Doug]

But I'm glad mine died.

[Adam Schafer]

I know I'm gonna throw mine out.

[Doug]

Requested it because it was like, oh.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, look at this.

[Adam Schafer]

Toaster ovens too.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yep. Did you check this out, guys? 45% of us tap water is contaminated with forever chemicals. 45 urban areas, 75%.

[Doug]

I mean, doesn't that make everybody angry? Like, it's so frustrating.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, dude. And they.

[Adam Schafer]

I Mean, they have way more products than I thought they did.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, yeah, they have great stuff. And again, forever chemical free. And they last a long time. Super, super high quality.

[Adam Schafer]

One of the newer brands that we partnered with that I like. It's always cool when we find brands. I'm like, oh, yeah, that'd be neat. Whatever. And then we get it, and then it ends up being. And our audience. Yeah. And I had a lot of our. Our audience that was already on to them before we were. And I'm like, I didn't even. I wasn't even aware they have everything. I did not realize how much stuff.

[Doug]

Between the forever chemicals and the microplastics, this has been on my radar. Get rid of.

[Sal DiStefano]

Do you know how much I spend on water? Because I get it. I get it delivered, but I get the glass containers.

[Doug]

Glass. Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I looked at the building, I'm like, oh, my God.

[Adam Schafer]

This is why in the new place that was like a must, was to build a filtration, build it into the. The house. Because I was going through so much bottle.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, dude.

[Adam Schafer]

And I was. You were having it delivered. I was going. And having to fill it up every time. I was like, this is so annoying to have to do this all the time.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's crazy.

[Adam Schafer]

So worthwhile investment to put it in your house.

[Sal DiStefano]

Dude. Dude. Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. It's so worse.

[Sal DiStefano]

Did you do it through. Did you do the. The shower head?

[Adam Schafer]

No, I just did.

[Sal DiStefano]

I just did the sink one.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, Yeah, I just did it under the sink. Similar to what we have here, where it's got its own ro and all that stuff like that.

[Doug]

So.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, dude, I gotta ask you guys. Well, I'll go first, so you guys have some time to think. But are there things in your life that are just idols that you just have struggle with kind of breaking down, or you. You have a. You have trouble with them? So. So I'll start with me. I don't know if you guys have any, but. But you guys know my, like, working out, right? Working out for me is a struggle. It's an idol, and it's, you know, an idol meaning something that you value too highly, right? It's too. It's. It's too high on the priority list. And what happens is it becomes like a God, and it's a terrible God. Everything but God is a terrible goddess. It'll tyrannize you. And I had an experience this morning that was just, you know, I got really frustrated myself. So my wife wakes up early with this, like, terrible migraine and she gets these sometimes, right? Not as often as she used to, but they're so bad that she literally pulls her hair and will vomit. Like, it's so bad that she's, like, writhing and it's hard to watch. It's almost like a cluster headache. I don't know if you've ever seen those before. Yeah, it's really, really bad. And so I'm trying to tend to her and care for her, and I'm, you know, it's so bad that giving her medicine, like ibuprofen, moving to take the medicine is too painful. So it's like she has to sit there. And I'm like, how can I get this ibuprofen in her mouth so that in 40 minutes she can maybe use the bathroom. Brutal. Yeah, because she's going to throw up or whatever. So it took all morning. As a result, you know, I'm not going to work out, which is fine. My wife's way more important. However, on the way, I find myself just angry and frustrated. Not towards my wife, but just because.

[Adam Schafer]

You missed your workout.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, dude. And I'm thinking to myself, like, I'm letting this just rule me, me. It's like, this is still an idol that I'm, I'm. And it's way better than it used to be.

[Adam Schafer]

I don't know.

[Sal DiStefano]

Really pisses me off.

[Adam Schafer]

I don't know. Sal F. So when I. What comes to mind for me, and it's been a long journey for this, that and I've watched is just material, period, materialistic things I like, nice things. I always have. I'm sure a lot of that is.

[Sal DiStefano]

Better than it used to be.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, it's way better.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Way, way better. But my, what I'm. What I'm getting to is that, that I don't think it will ever not be a conversation for you. I think once it's become. Once it was. If it was ever something like that for you, it will be a lifelong. Of course, work, work towards it. Right. Like, it just. At least that's what it is for me. Like, I, I. And I've told you, I've learned, like, ways that I've shared this before on the podcast.

[Sal DiStefano]

Step one is awareness.

[Adam Schafer]

Right? Right. So becoming aware that that was a, A big thing then, then setting rules and boundaries and things up for myself. I've. I've brought up before where if I want something, right, like, I just say, hey, if I still want it tomorrow, I'll get it. And then the second test was, do I get this and do I want to go show it to everybody else, or is it something I speak to myself? Yeah. And so if I can. If I can pass those tests, then it's like. Because I also. I mean, because here's the challenge, just like you is like, fitness and working out is a good thing.

[Sal DiStefano]

So it's not like success and wealth.

[Adam Schafer]

Right. So it's not like you don't want it. Exactly. And. And having success and things is not inherently evil, but it is to worship it or idle it. Right. Or put it above all these other things. And so how I've tried to. I figured it out, and then I went, okay, well, how do I still have balance with it? Because I do still enjoy some of those things. So those have been the. The big tests, and I. And I get tested all the time where it's like, oh, I really want this thing. And then I go, okay, well, let's wait till tomorrow. Do I still really want that thing? Many times it goes away, and it's like, oh, that was just a temporary desire or need. Right. Or want. And then after that, the next test is like, okay, I'm gonna buy this thing that I still want today. It's like, do I feel like I need to post about it or go show it to other people? Because then is it. Is it really for me or is it me wanting to show that I have this? And so those have been. And I have to have that conversation all the time. All the time.

[Sal DiStefano]

So you're right. I think you're 100. Right. What's yours, Justin? Cheese.

[Doug]

Sex and drugs.

[Sal DiStefano]

Those are common, dude.

[Adam Schafer]

Fucking rock star.

[Doug]

Such a rock star is honesty in that, you know, like, it's. And I've worked through both, like, and really, the drugs, it's just like, it's alcohol and. And, you know, edibles. And for me, it's like the feeling. And so I'll get snappy if, like, I start to. It's more frequent and I. And I get into this relaxed mindset. I can disassociate, you know, from, like, stuff going on and can. Can actually be in a better calm state. So I. I associate it with this calm state of mind. And then being a better person around my family.

[Sal DiStefano]

Isn't that funny how we sell ourselves?

[Doug]

Yeah, I sold myself on that many times and then checked myself hard because then when I was just interacting in and, you know, get home from work and I'm trying to be calm, like, I had a really hard time because it'd get, like, just all of this frustrated Energy. And just like, I. You know, I. I had to. I had to realize that, like, wow, I'm. I'm now feeling this pull that I didn't feel before. So, yeah, I been working through that, and it definitely backed off quite a bit. And then it sneaks up when the stress is, like, way up here, and it comes back. So that's been a fight. Sex has just been a thing that's just, you know, it's. It's. It's just. I'm really driven, and it's like, I want it, and I'm always like, you know, I'm competitive, you know, so I'm like, where's the angle I can promote? You know, like, it's a winner. It's a loss for me every day, you know, And I had to stop doing that. Like, what are you doing? Like, this isn't a win or a loss every day.

[Sal DiStefano]

Wow, that's so good, dude.

[Doug]

But it was. Dude. But it's real, like. And I tried, and I constantly communicate with my wife about this and. And try to not give that energy off and, like, you know, make her feel like, oh, my God, this is like, you know, I. I don't want you to be in a bad mood or, you know, I'm like, I don't want to put that on you.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, you don't want. You don't want pity sex either, you know?

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I don't want it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Doug]

I want enjoyable, like. Like connected time intimacy. Yeah, intimacy is different than. Than sex.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'm having such a huge realization right now. So. So last night, I prayed with my wife. We pray together every night. And she did the dreaded. And after she did it, you know, we finished. I said, hey, man. I looked at her. I'm like, did you really just say that? She prayed for us to be humbled. And I'm realizing what happened this morning is we both got humbled.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, wow.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Because she hasn't had pain for a long time.

[Adam Schafer]

You come home and blame it on her.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I have it. And I have it. No, it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. And I got a little cocky. So I'll tell you, this is the good news. But what you're saying is, right. So true, Adam. Like, it's a daily. Every. You have to die to yourself every day. Right? Every day you're gonna. You're gonna move away from what's most important, and every day, you're gonna have to die to yourself. And I had this great. And it is Moving in the right direction. So I'll say that. And I had this great the other day. I'm working out and I've been praying over working out or I'm praying over body muscle building, all this stuff. Like I need help with this. I don't want to change this. Those kind of prayers. And I'm sitting there and I'm listening to worship music, which started early on in my faith, which I found was strange because I've always listened to the same hard metal angry. And I just all of a sudden started listening to worship music. I find myself in between sets reading scripture, praying or texting my friends about like faith based stuff. And I realized that very gently God took my worship sal time and started to shift it to worship him time. And, and so now here's the humbling part. I felt real good about it. Oh yeah. My workouts are worship him time. This is great. It's all about worshiping Him. Oh my God, I'm so grateful. And this morning, what happens, I miss my workout and I'm angry and frustrated because of the workout, not because of that. So. And I'm like, thanks honey, for praying for that. Don't do that again. Yeah, if you, you'll get, if you pray for getting humbled, you will get humble.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I believe, I believe that it, at least, at least I've accepted that it'll probably be there forever. It does get easier. And you get, you, you get quicker at becoming aware of it. Right. So maybe it will never end that that moment, like that doesn't happen for you, that it doesn't create some sort of like. But you'll be quicker and quicker to like, oh, I know what's going on right now. Like, okay. And then you, and then you can work towards it. Because I think that at least that's what it's been like for me is my, my journey with that has been an ongoing battle. I've just, I've gotten better and quicker about recognizing it and seeing it either before it happens or while I'm in it. Like, oh, this is one of those things. This isn't really about something for me. This is really about others and how others perceive me or whatever. It's like, that's wrong reason.

[Sal DiStefano]

And then.

[Adam Schafer]

And you take a left, right, I'm.

[Sal DiStefano]

Gonna speak and take a left. I'm gonna take a left. I looked up our partner, Viori. I looked up their, their history of reviews, by the way. They were founded in 2015, so they've been around now for 10 years. They have over 60,000 five star super positive reviews. And I looked at. I looked it up in comparison to other comparable competitive companies. And in that timeframe, they above and beyond surpass other companies in terms of that athletic. Yes. In terms of their reviews, they absolutely kill it. Absolutely. And by the way, I see them now all over the place. Remember when they had that one store?

[Adam Schafer]

They're everywhere.

[Sal DiStefano]

I was at the. I was at. What is that Stanford shopping center up there. They have one there.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I'm walking in and I see competitors and then I go to Viori and they're full. Yeah, they're packed. Yeah, they have made 10 years. They went from like nobody knew them to.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, it was such a cool.

[Doug]

It's just cool. You did.

[Adam Schafer]

It was a cool deal for us to partner with him so early.

[Sal DiStefano]

When did we partner with them?

[Adam Schafer]

Nine years ago. Eight. Nine years ago.

[Sal DiStefano]

It was right after they started.

[Adam Schafer]

You know that at that time it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Was just an online company.

[Adam Schafer]

Joe had not. They had. They had. They had one store or two. They, they. But at that time, they had not invested or spent any money on real marketing and advertising. No commercials, no podcast, no ads. They were just organically growing. And they were still very, I would say, probably bootstrapped at that time. And so them stepping out and investing in us as a partner and a brand was new to them. And we introduced them to the podcasting space. And then. And I do remember there was a time when I could see a fit person wearing viori and I thought, oh, that they listen to Mind Pump, you know, and I could say, go say hi to him or what. It is not like that whatsoever. I mean, I see viori everywhere. I mean, they're, they're. Every time I'm in the airport, everywhere.

[Sal DiStefano]

Their top. Their top products are the performance joggers core shorts, because I was looking this up, and the meta pants. These are the ones that people just.

[Doug]

Oh, nice. Yeah, that's the ones that is my favorite.

[Sal DiStefano]

Met is the one I always get.

[Doug]

And now they have the meta for the shorts, which is like, even better. Oh, yeah, I know the cords like their. Their main ones, but yeah, dude, Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I had their meta joggers right now. I mean, I love, I love their joggers. Their joggers are all my favorite because.

[Sal DiStefano]

You jog so often.

[Adam Schafer]

He's a big guy. I live irony there.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right Element is the best electrolyte powder anywhere. No artificial sweeteners, no sugar. It tastes great. It's the best one. It's the top one by the Way they have a new flavor. Lemonade, Salt. Delicious. No calories. Go check them out. Go to drinklmnt.com mindpump on that link. You'll get a free sample pack with any drink mix purchase. Back to the show.

[Justin Andrews]

First question is from Fulville Castle. Any tips to specifically target triceps during close grip grip bench presses?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes, I like this question because a narrow grip, it will activate the triceps more, but it doesn't automatically just hit the triceps more. In fact, you could do a close grip bench press and make it all delts just by the positioning of where your hands go as you lower the bar. So anytime you're trying to hit a specific body part, I think it's important whether you understand anatomy or not. Literally look up the action of a muscle. And so the tricep, what the tricep does is it extends the elbow. Okay. So for my tricep to get work, it has to go from bent arm to straight arm. It's called, you know, elbow extension. So with a close grip bench press, when you're lowering the bar, if you want to use more tricep, then you bring the hands back a little bit and allow the elbows to bend more. If I bring the bar way down here and I get minimal bend and the elbow, then most of the action is going to be at the delts.

[Doug]

Which brings your delts are protracted a bit.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's right. So the way I like to close grip bench is first of all, I don't go too close with my wrist because that or my hands because that can be not so great on my wrist. I'll grab a close grip that's right about shoulder or slightly within shoulder width. Then when I lower the bar, I make sure to bring the hands a little higher on my chest, which allows.

[Doug]

For that knuckles come back a little bit more.

[Adam Schafer]

So I teach even wrists in line with elbows. Elbows guide right down rib cage.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

And so if you. And so I want your elbows tucked as tight as you can, so you should feel your rib cage as you come down and your wrist should be in line with that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, you could go a little more.

[Adam Schafer]

You could go more narrow, but I mean it's the same. Same. So you're going here, no points any wider is going to put stress on the shoulder. So it's literally straight down and then in full range. Right. So can you get it all bar all the way down to your right, like your sternum or whatever and then extend it? But yeah, absolutely, you're right. If you flare the elbows all out wide and go too wide of a grip. Now you're almost like a. Some guys bench press, that one. Yeah. Most guys bent. Some guys bench with a closer grip and press that way. And so you got a lot more chest and shoulders.

[Sal DiStefano]

Now you could technically get a lot of triceps with your elbows flared out because the elbow band, but your wrists don't like that. So that lateral bend in the wrist.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

This is where people will say, oh, God, close grip bench press hurts my wrist. It's because your elbows are flooring out and. Or you're grabbing.

[Adam Schafer]

This is also why I like to do close grip bench press on a incline opposed to a flat bench.

[Sal DiStefano]

It encourages that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, it encourages that. And you get like a deeper range of motion. So as that. As that comes down, you can really pull down versus if I'm on a flat bench. A lot of times people have a hard time retracting, depressing, coming all the way back. And so you just get a, A. A deeper, fuller range. I've always felt. Felt it better in the triceps doing it that way. But yeah, no, the, the details matter. Like if that's the goal. If the goal is to work the triceps more. And then honestly, too, just your mental focus on it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Literally. By the way, they've done studies on this, Adam. People thinking of the muscle.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

While they're exercising alone. Yeah. Increases activation.

[Adam Schafer]

This is so powerful that I can show. I can show you same hand position, same el. Same everything position and. And feel one of them in my shoulders and chest and the other one in my arms.

[Sal DiStefano]

Just. And it's. It's literally in your head.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, it's just in my head. Just by knowing now, again, that's years of training and understanding how to activate certain muscles, but that's how important it is for you to think about what muscle you're trying to work and not just going through the movement. And then, of course, taking the tips that we just gave will. Will help that, but focusing on it too.

[Sal DiStefano]

By the way, like, the reason why thinking of a muscle while you exercise has been shown again in studies. They can actually show muscle activation. The reason why that increases activation is because the signal that's going to your body to move is from your brain. So literally, thinking of the muscle is a very easy, simple way of you activating that muscle even more.

[Adam Schafer]

So when I used to teach this, I would actually take them on the bar path, and then at the bottom of it, I would actually. You hold the weight and then Tell them hold it with your tricep. And then I would. And I wouldn't let it. Don't press it up until you're holding it with your tricep. What do you mean? I'm like, flex your tricep and hold. And now hold the way that. Until that. That light switch. Okay, I'm holding. Okay, great. Now you're. This is at the bottom of this rep. I want you to feel always controlling this tricep. Now flex it harder as you press up.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And then that would get them to kind of understand that otherwise you just move the bar path. The shoulders, the chest, all those other secondary muscles will try and support because it's advantageous for those bigger muscles to help support a movement like that. So you have to really learn how to concentrate on resisting the weight with your triceps and then flexing.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I will say this, just. I'm a fan of the close grip bench press. I think it's great for tricep development. Yes. But from a functional standpoint, it's a very functional pressing exercise. I mean, when I. When I was a grappler wrestling jiu jitsu, it's not often that you're. You're moving people away from you with your hands out here. In fact, in jiu jitsu, this is a death sentence if I bring my hands out here. I'm just asking to get arm locked or a Camaro lock or something like that. Right. Typically, you're pushing people off you with your hands inside your body. And I found the close grip bench press to be just. The carryover was amazing.

[Justin Andrews]

Next question is from Morgan B. Peterson. How do I learn to rest and recover when my greatest assets are hard work, grit, and overachieving?

[Sal DiStefano]

What's funny about this is your greatest.

[Adam Schafer]

Strength is your greatest weakness. Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And not just that, but what we tend to do is we tend to look at what helps us achieve the thing we're after as the thing that we're actually after. In other words, hard work. Great. But why is it great? It produces a result. So it's like, hey, why are you outside digging a hole and filling it back up? And digging a hole, filling it back up. Because I like hard work. Nobody ever does that, Right. Like, what are you doing? There's no point there, right. Unless the point is just to exercise or whatever. So hard work and grit are great because of what they can produce. If you're over training, what are you getting out of it? Besides just doing more? You're not getting any more fitness benefit or Health benefit. It's actually the opposite. You're just doing more for the sake of doing more. So I think the key with this is to say, what am I after with this hard work? What am I after? How can I take this discipline that I have and make it work for me? Now, if your goal is I just like to occupy myself. All right, well, find a way to occupy yourself where you'll get more benefit. Because if you over apply hard work and grit to exercise, if you over apply intensity or duration or volume or whatever, you'll go backwards. You won't get the great results.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, I also. This is a great opportunity to learn about human behavior. Your greatest strength is also your greatest weakness. This is in all aspects of life. Life, you name it. You name somebody that has this ultimate strength and I'll tell you where that ends up also being a weakness in their life. And you have to be able to look at that duality is be able to go like, hey, I know this is a great attribute of me, but then what are the things, what are some of the bad things that come with that? Well, in this case, that's an. You're, you're a recipe for overworking, over training, under eating, under resting. Right. So that's what happens for somebody who trains really hard, works really hard, and that's their greatest asset. So, so I think there's, there's something to be, not just in this, this conversation right here, but learning how to look at that in all aspects of your life is that your greatest strength is your greatest weakness.

[Doug]

And you can use that as, as a focus of like the work is to be mentally disciplined, to allow yourself to rest and recover and to sit in that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Doug]

And that's, that's the hard work for you right now?

[Adam Schafer]

That's right.

[Doug]

Proven you can do hard work and physical hard work.

[Sal DiStefano]

What a great point.

[Doug]

You haven't proven that to yourself.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'm a hard worker. What's harder for you right now? Doing more exercises or actually taking a break? Right? Oh, taking a break is harder. Well, you're such a hard worker.

[Adam Schafer]

That's right.

[Sal DiStefano]

Direction.

[Adam Schafer]

Reframe it.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

Next question is from bsavage83. What are the long term side effects of TRT?

[Sal DiStefano]

This is a great question and we need to paint the context before we can answer this. TRT stands for testosterone replacement. Now, the kind of person that is on testosterone replacement therapy is the person, and this is when it's appropriate. Okay. This is the person who is deficient or has a Deficiency in testosterone. So hormones are important in the body and they're drivers of different functions of the body. And testosterone is a very important hormone for both men and women. If you are deficient in testosterone, the side effect of getting your testosterone levels to optimal levels through replacement therapy is better health. Okay. Because the deficiency of testosterone is not good for you. If you are deficient in testosterone, you are more likely to have heart disease, you're more likely to be depressed, you're more likely to have osteoporosis, osteopenia, infertility. You're more likely to have a whole host of health issues, including chronic pain and chronic health issues, including some cancers. A lot of people think, think, you know, that testosterone might drive certain. No, no, you actually are at a higher risk with low testosterone for certain types of cancers. So the side effects of getting your testosterone levels optimized is a healthier version of it, is you're just healthier. Now the reason why some people may have some, you know, they're on testosterone and they're like, oh, things are going south is because they're not on replacement therapy. They're pushing the limits. I know what that's like because that's what I do. You push the limits and now you're outside of optimal and you're more towards. I'm going to maximize all these other things, in which case there's this kind of trade off. But aside from that, hormone replacement therapy, because remember the context is this. Here you have an individual whose testosterone is low and ideally they've tried to get it raised through lifestyle and healthy practices and for whatever reason it's low. Then going on replacement therapy improves quality of life and improves all health outcomes.

[Adam Schafer]

So what, what's it, what the dose depends there, determines the poison or whatever. I mean, this is, this is like anything else. Now the neat thing or the good positive thing is that we have a ton of research around testosterone and testosterone therapy and replacement therapy and the, and the amounts that you can take safely. And so there's a pretty high range that you could get up there and, and remain pretty damn safe. Now, long term abuse of steroids, like, yeah, there's definitely side effects of that. But replacement therapy taking enough to put your body at just optimal levels, not super physiological levels. Optimal levels is all positive.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, what's funny, yeah, what's funny too about the hormone of testosterone. In the past we've had a lot of bad press because it is a performance enhancing hormone. But the truth be told, of all the hormones you can take, it's one of the safest ones. I'm trying to think right now. What hormone would be safer than testosterone if you took a person and you mega dose.

[Adam Schafer]

Definitely not. Insulin. Definitely not. Birth control. Definitely not. I mean, no.

[Sal DiStefano]

Like thyroid. If you mega dosed all the hormones individually to see which one is more likely to cause big time health issues, I can't think of one that's safer than testosterone. And that's. This is all backed by the data. It's actually a really safe hormone. I mean, athletes will take, you know, 10 times.

[Adam Schafer]

But what are the most common? Thyroid, Insulin.

[Sal DiStefano]

Thyroid will kill you.

[Adam Schafer]

Birth control, what else?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You could go like progesterone and estrogen. You take that too high, you do radio increase the risk of blood clots and, and certain types of cancer.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, I've never.

[Sal DiStefano]

Insulin will kill you right away.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah. I've never thought of comparing it that way. So it's such a great point. If you compare it to every other growth hormone, exogenous hormone that we can take.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

It's the safest of all.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, yeah. If you had, if someone was like, here, we're going to give you 10 times your normal amount of any hormone, which one would you pick? Testosterone.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's not going to kill you. The other ones might cause some problems.

[Justin Andrews]

Next question is from Amelia Hurtline. From what I read, programming seems deceivingly simple. Picking movements that you connect to and changing them out periodically changing rep ranges and rest times periodically, making sure to progressively overload with weight form, rep sets or rest times. What are some things to focus on when creating your own programming and to ensure its effectiveness?

[Adam Schafer]

Okay, you have to chuckle a little bit. Of course, you have to chuckle a little bit about how this is. The table's been set here. From what I read, programming seems deceivingly simple. You just have to do this, this, this, this, this and this and know how to do the right balance.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'll ask the question. I'll ask a similar question. Well, chewing gum, from what I understand, coding is simple. You just use ones and zeros. You just put them in order and.

[Doug]

Then you create program Java.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, just like that. Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. Programming is. It's funny. What's that? What's that learning curve? I can't remember the name of it, but like people will go to school for something and in the beginning they're like, I know everything. And then after a couple years, like, I know nothing. There's actual term for this. Maybe you can find that Doug Dunbar's law program, like that program programming is, is, it is actually deceiving. It's actually incredibly complex. Yes, it's incredibly complex. Here's the Good news.

[Adam Schafer]

Spent 10 years in my trainer thinking, as a trainer thinking it was so simple and easy and didn't realize what a shitty trainer I was.

[Doug]

Giving them super general like lame program, program.

[Sal DiStefano]

It took me 10 to 15 years to like say, I think I can program well, depending on the person.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So yes, there are variables like exercises, sets, reps, tempo, but you're also looking at the day, the order, which one goes with the best. Of course you have to consider the individual with all this. Was there's a huge wrench that you throw in the machine, the combo of it all. Then you look at the days, how the days connect and what that means. Then you look at the weeks and oh, I did this this week, I got to do something else this week. Then you look at the month and then you look at big time programming. It's, it's complex to the point where Dunning Kruger. Oh yeah, I remember this. It's called the Dunning Kruger effect.

[Doug]

That's right.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's, it's, it's funny because. It's funny because I read this the other day like the, during the 60s and 70s, the Soviets were dominating in Olympic weightlifting. And when the Iron Curtain came down in the, what was it, 1989, we had a lot of their coaches come over and kind of teach us what they did. The reason why they were kicking our ass wasn't because they used better drugs as we were using drugs too. It was because they had applied the scientific method to workout programming and they had figured out how to really break it down. So here's what's simple. Moving, as long as it's not overdoing, it's better for you than not moving. That's simple. But if you want your workout to really maximize how your body feels, your results, if you want to know how to change it based on the context of your life and how you feel, this is where it gets really complex. Here's the good news. A good programmed workout is cheap, it's inexpensive. I mean, if you got one of our programs, so long as it was an appropriate one for you, so don't just go for the hardest one, but think, okay, what do the guys say about these workout programs and which one will fit me? You just, you get one of our programs, you have three months of workout program. You can have a year of workout programming with us for less than it would cost you a year of your supplements. So. And that's it. You could, you could recycle that for the rest of your life and you're set.

[Adam Schafer]

I also think where this comes from is that if you took somebody who has a unhealthy, sedentary lifestyle and you had them do any array of exercises consistently for six months, so long as it wasn't overdone. Right, right, right. So long as you didn't like, radically abuse them or what that, like, you just. They can consistently did these random exercises three times. Let's say you did a decent dose three times a week for an hour workout, and you picked. Ran all kinds of random exercises with no rhyme or reason and manipulated all these things. Like you're saying just sometimes here and there, that person would be fitter than the version of them that didn't do anything.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right. I'll give you, I'll give some simple. These are silly, simple examples. I come up with a million. But here's an easy one, right? Like someone's like, oh, I'm gonna work out today. And I'm really. I want to work out my core. That's really important for me. And I'm gonna work out my shoulders. So. But the core is more important. So I'm gonna go and hit my core and then I'm go to standing overhead press. Now any strength coach or trainer will be like, no, do not hit your core before you do standing overhead press because you're going to put yourself high risk for low back injury. Right? Or somebody might be like, yeah, I heard deadlifts are really important. I heard squats are really important. I'm going to work out on Monday and Tuesday this week. So I'm going to go deadlift on Monday, then I'm gonna go barbell squat on Tuesday. No, no, no, no. Don't deadlift before you squat. Like that replaces you at higher risk for injury. Those are simple examples, but it's. There's a lot of moving pieces. Programming is more complex than you think. And if you don't believe me, rather than creating your own program or following your own program as you have, try one of ours, follow it, and then come back to me and watch what happens.

[Adam Schafer]

But I do want to make it clear, because we've said this many times, an inferior program done consistently is still better than a superior program done inconsistently. And so that's where this comes from too, is that, that you're right. If, if someone just does random exercises, but they consistently do them and they.

[Sal DiStefano]

And so long as they don't overdo it hurt.

[Adam Schafer]

Right, Right. Like, then, yeah, that person is far better off than. Than the guy who has the best. Has a Maps program and rarely shows up. So of course that. In that. But if comparing apples to apples, where both clients, I mean, you take a client, you give them all your random exercises and I take that same client and then program correctly. I bet you. I bet you everything.

[Doug]

It's misleading is a lot of the exercises are the same that you'll see across the board with a lot of the programs out there. These other programs. A lot of times you'll see entertainment being highlighted a lot more. And so there's more of the. The marketing flash and there's more of the visuals. And also. That looks fun. Yeah, it just looks. It looks hard or they give you the feeling of hard. But the combination of everything matters so much more.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. It's funny, you're just making me think of like, group, group workout classes are notorious for what you just said. I've seen group workout classes where people are hanging from swings or they're wearing what look like. I don't know what they're called. Like bouncy shoes.

[Doug]

Oh, yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Or where people are using trampolines or then they use poles, like pole dancing. There's no workout programming. It's all about like, let's add something novel to make it look fun and get people.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, let's create. Let's create movement for these sedentary people and we'll show them results because you're right. So if you, you take somebody who's not going to that thing and they do that thing three days a week consistently, and they'll see an improvement from what they were doing, which was nothing and so. But there is definitely levels to this.

[Sal DiStefano]

As far as, like, here's the difference between bad programming and good programming. If you have a trainer who does bad programming, the client will get some results and they'll be like, oh, my God, I got some results. Man, I was working so hard. It was so challenging. I got so sore. It was. Oh, it was really a grind, but I did it. Then the client with the good trainer is going to go, I don't know how the hell I look so good. I feel like I'm. I mean, I'm working out, but I feel good. I'm not getting beat up. I'm not doing a lot effortless. But it's like, it's so crazy how like my body's response.

[Adam Schafer]

That's probably the best way to describe this. Is that you're right. You could still, you know, get there through poor programming or get get aways without with poor programming. But good programming when done correctly will feel effortless. And that is like what you want. And this is what we always want people to experience because is there is this stigma around being really fit and in shape that it's like oh, that person has to be married to the gym and killing themselves and never enjoying food. It's like no, actually not at all like that. In fact they can have those abs, they can look that way, they can be that strong and go to the gym a few times a week, two, three times a week and enjoy foods that they like to eat too. It is effortless when you do it correctly, but if you are doing it incorrectly, it can feel like a grind trying to get there.

[Sal DiStefano]

Totally. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is mindpumpjustin I'm mindpump distefano Adams.

[Justin Andrews]

Mindpump Battle thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically, improve your health and energy, and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pumpkin.