2634: Four Weird Reasons You Have Joint or Muscle Pain & More (Listener Live Coaching)

Summary

Mind Pump Podcast: Episode 2634 Summary – Four Weird Reasons You Have Joint or Muscle Pain & More (Listener Live Coaching)

Introduction

In Episode 2634 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth, hosts Sal DiStefano, Adam Schaefer, Justin Andrews, and Doug Egge delve into unconventional yet significant causes of joint and muscle pain. Drawing from their extensive combined experience and scientific research, they debunk common fitness myths and offer actionable, science-backed solutions. The episode not only explores the four unusual reasons behind persistent aches but also provides live coaching to listeners grappling with various health and fitness challenges.

Four Weird Reasons for Joint or Muscle Pain

1. Psychological Issues: Depression and Anxiety

   The episode begins by highlighting the profound impact of mental health on physical pain. Doug Egge emphasizes, “[Your emotional state], in particular depression and anxiety, dramatically increase the rate of pain that you're going to feel by changing...” (04:18). He explains that emotions like depression and anxiety can heighten the brain's pain signal processing, making individuals more susceptible to feeling pain even without a direct physiological cause.

   Notable Insight:

   • A study discussed from Psychosomatic Medicine reveals that therapy alone can reduce pain measurements by an average of 30% in individuals suffering from both pain and mental health issues (08:06).

2. Nutrient Deficiencies

   Nutrient deficiencies are identified as a common yet overlooked cause of chronic pain. Vitamins such as D, magnesium, and B play crucial roles in maintaining muscle and nerve function. Doug shares a personal story about his father, whose undiagnosed vitamin D deficiency led to severe joint pain. Upon supplementation, his father's pain subsided dramatically, underscoring the importance of proper nutrient intake (14:05).

   Key Points:

   • Vitamin D Deficiency: Often results in generalized body pain, especially in bones and joints.
   • Magnesium Deficiency: Leads to muscle cramps, spasms, and nerve hypersensitivity.
   • Caloric and Macronutrient Deficiency: Undereating can cause both macro and micronutrient shortages, exacerbating pain and inflammation (15:04).

3. Poor Sleep

   Sleep quality significantly affects pain perception. The hosts discuss how insufficient sleep can increase pain sensitivity by up to 20%, making everyday activities feel more uncomfortable or painful (15:35). Doug recounts how addressing sleep issues in clients led to a noticeable reduction in their pain levels, sometimes as quickly as after one good night's sleep.

   Notable Quote:

   • “If you have an insomniac, somebody who's got terrible sleep, give them one night of good sleep, their pain will go down by 15%.” (16:07)

4. Suboptimal Water Intake

   Hydration is crucial for joint lubrication and overall muscle function. The discussion points out that while drinking water when thirsty prevents life-threatening dehydration, maintaining optimal hydration levels can reduce friction in joints and prevent chronic pain (17:24). Sal shares his personal experience of eliminating recurring quad pain by increasing his water intake without overhydrating to unsafe levels.

   Advice:

   • Aim for consistent hydration tailored to your activity level and body needs.
   • Monitor fluid intake visually, such as carrying a gallon of water, to ensure adequate consumption (18:09).

Additional Insights

• Mind-Body Connection: The interplay between emotional states and physical sensations is emphasized as a complex but critical aspect of managing pain.
• Nutrient Optimization: Proper intake of essential vitamins and minerals supports both physical health and mental well-being.
• Training Adjustments: Addressing pain through balanced training programs that consider both physical and psychological factors can lead to sustainable health improvements.

Listener Live Coaching

The latter part of the episode features live coaching sessions where listeners seek personalized advice on overcoming specific health and fitness obstacles.

1. Micah from Alabama: Overcoming Shoulder and Elbow Pain While Building Muscle

   • Issue: Micah developed tennis elbow and shoulder pain after increasing his training intensity.
   • Advice: Doug recommends transitioning to a unilateral training program to allow the injured side to recover while continuing to work the other side. Sal suggests adding 250-300 calories to support muscle growth even with the injury, and emphasizes the importance of hydration (66:40).

2. Ryan Seacrest: Balancing Workouts Across Different Phases Amid a Busy Schedule

   • Issue: Ryan struggles to adhere to a structured MAPS program due to his demanding schedule and varying workout environments.
   • Advice: The hosts reassure Ryan that mixing workouts from different phases is acceptable given his expertise and circumstances. They encourage him to maintain consistency in his training approach, even if it means adapting the program to fit his schedule (79:37).

3. Andrew from New Jersey: Addressing Shoulder, Trap, and Neck Pain in Strength Training

   • Issue: Andrew experiences weakness and pain in his shoulders, traps, and neck while strength training.
   • Advice: The hosts advise incorporating specific corrective exercises from the MAPS Prime Pro program. They stress the importance of intentional mobility work and adjusting training intensity to focus on movement patterns rather than just lifting heavier weights (103:50).

4. Gina from Florida: Evaluating the Benefits of Hot Vinyasa Yoga for Muscle Building and Fat Loss

   • Issue: Gina questions the efficacy of hot vinyasa yoga in achieving her fitness goals, which include muscle building and fat loss.
   • Advice: Sal recommends focusing on traditional strength training and corrective exercises over yoga for muscle and fat-related goals. He acknowledges the mobility benefits of yoga but suggests it may not be the most efficient method for her specific objectives (89:02).

Conclusions

Episode 2634 of Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth provides valuable insights into the lesser-known causes of chronic joint and muscle pain, emphasizing the importance of addressing both physical and psychological factors. Through data-backed discussions and personalized listener coaching, the hosts offer comprehensive strategies for overcoming pain and optimizing overall health and fitness. Whether dealing with nutrient deficiencies, poor sleep, or psychological stress, the episode underscores the interconnectedness of mind and body in achieving sustainable well-being.

Notable Quotes

• Doug Egge on Psychological Amplification of Pain: “[Your emotional state], in particular depression and anxiety, dramatically increase the rate of pain that you're going to feel by changing...” (04:18)
• Doug Egge on Nutrient Deficiencies: “Nutrient deficiencies, which are relatively common in modern societies, can cause lots of physical pain.” (13:18)
• Doug Egge on Sleep and Pain: “If you have an insomniac, somebody who's got terrible sleep, give them one night of good sleep, their pain will go down by 15%.” (16:07)
• Sal DiStefano on Hydration: “[Hydration] eliminates... no more pain, no more pulling the quad anymore.” (18:54)

Final Thoughts

For those seeking to understand and manage chronic pain, this episode serves as an essential guide, blending scientific research with practical coaching. By addressing unconventional causes of pain and providing tailored solutions, Mind Pump continues to empower listeners to achieve their health and fitness goals with informed strategies.

Transcript

[Sal DiStefano]

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[Justin Andrews]

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[Sal DiStefano]

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[Adam Schaefer]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[Doug Egge]

Mind Pop. Mind Pop.

[Sal DiStefano]

With your host, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer.

[Adam Schaefer]

And Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[Doug Egge]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode we coached callers. People called in, we got to coach their fitness and health live on air. But this was after the intro. Today's intro was 60 minutes long and today's intro we talk about fat loss, muscle gain, pain relief, talk about family life. It's a good time. By the way, if you have a question that you want answered or you want to get coached, send us your [e-mail] this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Caldera Lab. This is all natural, scientifically made skincare products. They work. Go check them out. Go to calderalab.com that's C-A-L--E-R-A-L-A-B.com mindpump Use the code mindpump20. Get 20% off. This episode is also brought to you by Rock Recovery Center. This is a rehab facility for people who are suffering from addiction. Look, if you or a loved one family friend need help, go to rockrecoverycenter.com mindpump they're giving away a free scholarship for four months of treatment. By the way, everybody gets somebody will reach out to everybody and will help point you in the right direction. So again, if you need help, go to rockrecoverycenter.com we also have a sale on some workout programs. Maps split in the Anabolic metabolism. Bundle of programs. Both of those, 50% off. If you're interested, go to mapsfitnessproducts.com and then use the code 7uly50 for the discount. Here comes the show. You have joint pain or muscle pain. Something hurts, or maybe a lot of things hurt. And you've done everything to figure out why, and you can't seem to find the answer. Well, believe it or not, there are weird reasons why you may actually have joint and muscle pain. And we're gonna talk about it. And it's real. We got the data to back it up. Let's get into it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Pain, it's complicated.

[Doug Egge]

We gotta open up by saying that pain is one of the most complicated things. We think of it as just purely this physiological thing that's happening, but there's definitely. You can measure the physiological things that are happening, and then there's this subjective experience of pain and they're so closely intertwined.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

That it's incredibly, incredibly complex.

[Gina]

Psychological issues attached to it.

[Doug Egge]

Oh, that's the first one. And I remember the first time I realized this. I had a client who, you know, worked in mental health, and she. And I didn't believe her. And then she showed me the studies. She said, sal, you know that a significant percentage of people that go on antidepressant medication or work with a therapist actually see pain go away. I'm like, no way. What if there's this? What if there's that? And she broke it down to me, and it is totally true. Your emotional state, in particular depression and anxiety, dramatically increase the rate of pain that you're going to feel by changing. They've actually, in studies, they show the parts of the brain that it activates, like the amygdala. It actually heightens pain signal processing. So whatever signals you're getting your. Amplifies it up, amplifies the hell out. You're far more likely to feel pain when you're depressed or anxious than you would if you're not. And that can translate into I have pain or I don't. Which is pretty wild.

[Sal DiStefano]

What is. Do you know the percentage breakdown by chance of chronic versus acute pain like, that we deal with just as a society?

[Doug Egge]

Or is it, well, acute. So to define that. Right. Acute pain is like, I hurt myself. Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I broke a bone.

[Doug Egge]

I just did it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Chronic pain is like, everything healed. But what the heck? Why do I still.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Or what's going on. Yeah. And I know chronic pain is far more.

[Sal DiStefano]

More common, way more prevalent. That's why I was curious to like. Because when I think back to all the clients that I trained that dealt with pain, only a very small percentage did I help that were coming out of a surgery, just rolled an ankle or tore a ligament or something like that. Like, I did get those right. We rehabbed those people many times, got them after physical therapy and then I trained. But a vast majority of them was chronic pain, which for a young trainer was like, oh my God, like trying to get to the bottom of that.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, I think part of what probably made all of us pretty good trainers was the difficulty of trying to solve this.

[Doug Egge]

Yes.

[Sal DiStefano]

Of somebody who is basically tell you.

[Gina]

So many layers to it.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I've always had low back pain. And then you say, oh, what happened? And they're like, I don't. I've just always had low back pain. You know, I have a. And they say things like I have a bad back or I have bad knees or bad shoulders. And it's like. But they can't even, they can't even pinpoint a time in their life where something happened is just has always bothered them. And they tend to defer to age. You know, you'll see. And that's what they tell me when I was a young 20 year old, like, oh, you'll see, you'll see when you get my age, you know, I'm saying, how, what are you, 22, 20. So like, you know, eventually you all get it and it's just like trying to figure that out and solve that as a young trainer was super challenging.

[Doug Egge]

Well, this emotional connection to pain is fascinating. I found a study in 2022 that was in Frontiers in Psychology that, that showed that. Oh, sorry, this was in psychosomatic medicine. People with pain who also suffer from anxiety and depression, when they did therapy, on average they would notice a 30% decrease in pain. No exercise, 30%, no correctional anything, no pain meds, not even, you know, medical interventions for depression. But just going to therapy reduced their pain measurement by 30%. I have a personal experience with this with my wife. When I met her, she had this chronic shoulder pain. Now prior to meeting her, she had traveled with Cirque du Soleil for years. She wasn't in the act. She was called a guardian where younger performers, she would keep an eye on him type of deal. But while she was with them, she, she trained with some of the best athletes in the world in the silks. And in fact, she got really good at it to the point where she could do the splits on them and she could do a whole Performance. But anyway, she loved the silks. It was one of the first physical things she did in her life. She learned that she was actually a gifted athlete in the sense where she thought before growing up, she wasn't at all. And if you guys know my wife, you know, she's got those. Those muscle genes, but she didn't know that. So she learned this about herself, became addicted to the silks, hurt her shoulder. Okay, so that's the story. That's the background. I meet her, she talks about this chronic pain, and I end up doing correctional exercise with her. And her shoulder function got good. It got fine, but the shoulder pain didn't go away. And I remember being, like, perplexed, like, what's going on here? And then we had this conversation. I said, you know, I think this shoulder pain and injury means a lot to you because it took away this thing that you. That showed you that you could be physical, that you could be fit. This life changing. You couldn't do anymore. It was traumatizing. We had this conversation, no joke. She thought a lot about this. Journaled a week later. She was thinking about how it might be psychosomatic. And the pain went away. And it didn't come back. It literally just went away.

[Gina]

It's like the body's storing some memories there.

[Doug Egge]

Yes. And they're connected, too, because if you have. By the way, being depressed and anxious also makes yourself hold your body differently.

[Gina]

Oh, yeah. Well, I was going to say there's a lot of body workers and physical, like massage workers and people like that that actually have attributed certain types of pain to, like, say it like, I'm super anxious about something. I'm putting something off, or then they. It's interesting. And again, this is a lot of. More of the Eastern type of philosophy.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's Katrina's family. If I. If you tell her where you're having pain, they'll connect it to a specific type of issue. Like, oh, you must be having problems with. Like, even there's a. There's a male side and a female side. There are certain body parts that correlate with other things. So if you are challenged on one side, it's like, oh, this is. You have a problem with a female or a male in your life. There's certain things. That's anger, like, certain stuff like that. Like, so all the body parts are connected to a type of. Even. So.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I don't know how much I.

[Gina]

Yeah, I don't know how much I subscribe, but sometimes it's accurate. Well, there's weird.

[Doug Egge]

There is data that shows that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, I think it's an example what you always talk about. It's like there's something there a hundred percent. Like there's. And I tell you what, you try convincing somebody in her family that it's not like they've been working on people their whole life and helping people with stuff like that and they've had all these profound stories. So heaven forbid you tell them that it's not true. And it's like it's more about how they've communicated it for so long.

[Doug Egge]

First of all, try separating the emotional from the physical. Impossible.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

You can't. You can't. One communicates to the other and causes sensations in the other and vice versa. And oftentimes it can become a positive feedback loop. For, for example, I have an injury or something happens to me, I'm anxious, I have this. Let's say I have PTSD over it. Because of that, I hold my body in a different way, which causes more muscle tension, which causes more dysfunction, which causes more pain, which contributes to more anxiety and depression, and the cycle goes on and on.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, it also, from a very scientific. And from our western scientific logic does still make a lot of sense when you think about the brain being this, this hub that sends these neurons to all these parts of your body and that if there is some sort of a short circuit there, that it would physically affect that. Right. That makes sense to me. Connected.

[Gina]

It's not disconnected.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. I mean, they're, they're. So you would think if. And the brain, your body is essentially.

[Doug Egge]

Extension of your brain.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

If you. I mean, to put it plainly.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. So. So it would make sense that if I've got a bunch of trauma or memories or think blockage or inflammation, all the above, that it's going to affect the connectivity and circuit of the entire.

[Doug Egge]

There's data. I mean, just get real specific. Very logical to get real specific. Sexual trauma or abuse is connected to pelvic floor pain or numbness.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Doug Egge]

It could go in the other direction too, where I don't feel anything in this area of my body because I disconnected from it. And it's a psychosomatic, by the way. I hate saying psychosomatic because what people think.

[Gina]

Prodigy immediately.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. What people think that means is I made it up. Oh, what do you mean? It's psychos. It's in my head. So that's not real? No, it's real. You feel it?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

The best example I could give for this is phantom limb syndrome is a real Thing. Somebody loses an arm and they feel the arm is gone, and they feel tremendous pain and pressure as if it's still there. As if it's still there. By the way, one of the treatments for this is a mirror box. I don't know if you guys knew this where. I remember when they discovered this, but if you put the. The, you know, the missing limb, you know, part of the. Or the arm in this mirror box and mirror the other arm and then do some exercises, your brain will connect and visualize that being your arm. And then all of a sudden you'll see the pain release and feel like it's been.

[Gina]

They also have one where they had, like, a artificial limb that they could see on the other side. And then they would affect that limb.

[Doug Egge]

Yes.

[Gina]

And they would feel it. Everything they were doing to the artificial.

[Doug Egge]

Oh, that's the mirror box again. They'll tickle your hand and you'll have a fake hand and they'll hit it.

[Gina]

With a hammer, prod it with, like, a pin.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, Ye. Yeah. I mean, it's all. It's very real. So trying to work on. By the way, part of the reason why correctional exercise works so well, the obvious is you're correcting movement dysfunction. Here's the other reason why. And I never talk about this, but here's the other reason why correctional exercise works so well is because you're doing something.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're actively working on it.

[Doug Egge]

You're actively working on something.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, the psychological part.

[Doug Egge]

And the psychological part is it's, it's, it's. It feels good to be able to tackle this issue and move in a positive direction. And so then you get the positive feedback loop in the, in the good direction, where I feel like I'm doing something for this. Oh, my God, I'm feeling better. I can do this. Let me do more. And it gets better and better and better. But there are definitely lots of. Whether you have pain or you don't, your pain can be amplified through negative emotion, or you can actually feel pain that isn't coming from a physiological issue, it's actually coming from an emotional issue. And that's something that people don't know about. The next one is nutrient deficiencies. Nutrient deficiencies, which are relatively common in modern societies, can cause lots of physical pain. Vitamin D is a common one.

[Sal DiStefano]

Say vitamin D isn't B vitamin sometimes connected to. You see that with B vitamin.

[Doug Egge]

Or the most common ones are vitamin D and magnesium that you'll find B vitamin. Yeah. That'll make you really. That'll That'll improve, cause neuropathic pain.

[Gina]

Magnesium is more like cramping and like muscle spasm.

[Doug Egge]

Yep, yeah, yep. And hypersensitivity. So magnesium deficiency causes nerve hypersensitivity. Vitamin D deficiency just feels like overall pain in your body, pain in your bones and your joints. I've told the story of my dad. This is my dad. Yeah. We never thought he had a vitamin D deficiency because he's always outside and he's, you know, now he's in his late 60s. He's worked hard labor since he was 9 years old. So it was easy to dismiss and just say, oh, you've got arthritis in your spine. Which he does. You know, arthritis in your.

[Gina]

Yeah, it's like inevitable, right?

[Doug Egge]

He's like, oh, my body. I'm getting older. Everything's hurting. And it was getting worse and worse and worse and worse. He was taking painkillers. Finally goes to the doctor for routine blood tests. The doctor was like, let me just test your vitamin D. And it was really low. He took vitamin D and within days gone. And I remember my dad was just like blown away, like, oh my God, I can't believe taking vitamin D. But B, magnesium is one of them. B vitamins, another one.

[Sal DiStefano]

What about also being like, you just really low on protein or fats? Like, would that cause that if you're.

[Doug Egge]

Oh, for sure, yeah, yeah. Macronutrient deficiency. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. That can cause pain. So low, too low. A calorie diets are far more likely to cause pain in this scenario with nutrient deficiencies. Because if your nutrients, if your calories are low, that means your macronutrients are low. It also means your micronutrients are low. So the odds that you're going to have a nutrient deficiency, a micronutrient deficiency at 1500 calories are far higher.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Than if you're at 2500 calories. All things I know.

[Sal DiStefano]

Would you guys say it's pretty common too? Or at least we've seen this quite a bit where people are, you know, punishing their body while also being grossly undereating is like a lot of the chronic pain is just, it's like you don't even realize it, but you are beating your body up and you're in just, just kind of low level inflammation, chronic pain all the time and speak. That's your body like screaming at you like, I need rest, recovery and feed me.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Gina]

And so it's louder if you don't listen to it.

[Doug Egge]

Totally. Next up is poor sleep. This one is. We've all experienced this. If you're a parent, you get bad sleep and you're just less. You just perceive everything that's super painful or worse.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Poor sleep. I feel achy.

[Doug Egge]

Achy. They, they show a study that's sleeping six hours a night, which isn't like loud noises.

[Gina]

You're just like.

[Doug Egge]

They've tested this. Increases pain sensitivity by 20.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Six hours a night. That's not even apparent.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, if you, if you recall like the, like the last time you had a really bad sleep, I could just, I could feel my body.

[Doug Egge]

Oh yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I can just feel the way it feels. Just like.

[Doug Egge]

Oh yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Everything just aches.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. You're also less hot and cold tolerant. That's me. When I'm really exhausted, I'm. It's easier for me to be cold or if I'm out.

[Sal DiStefano]

I wonder if I've ever connected that. That's interesting.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. So your overall tolerance to everything goes down, but poor sleep is a big one. In fact, I get irritated. In fact, this was something I didn't, I wasn't good at. I wasn't good at as a trainer when it came to sleep until the very, very end of my career. Way, way, way, way, way late into my career. And it's because I learned it from someone else. I had a, this incredible practitioner in my studio who talked about sleep all the time. And she had patients. She was actually a physical therapist, but she did all kinds of stuff. She had patients who, all she did with them in the beginning was work on their sleep and they'd come in and talk about how great their knees felt and their back felt. Now I was so early in my career in my understanding of sleep at that point that I thought it was like placebo effects. Boy, did I mean, did I miss the boat on that one. She was 100% correct just from fixing their sleep. In fact, they're showing that if you have an insomniac, somebody who's got terrible sleep, give them one night of good sleep, their pain will go down. The back pain will go down by 15%.

[Sal DiStefano]

Wow.

[Doug Egge]

One good night of sleep. And then lastly, suboptimal water intake. This one's an easy one to fix.

[Sal DiStefano]

Also pretty common too.

[Doug Egge]

It is.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Now I say joint pain. Yeah. Now notice how I said suboptimal water intake. The reason why I have to say that is because what tends to happen, we talk about drinking water. I drink water. Well, you get that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Or the studies that people come out and say, like, you don't need that much water. Blah, blah, blah. It's like, it's like you could survive for a long time with that. It's like you get all that come. You get that camp. This thing comes out.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, you get this like. Yes. If you drink when you're thirsty, you're not gonna, you're not gonna have so little water that you're gonna hurt.

[Gina]

You'll be able to stay alive.

[Doug Egge]

You're fine, you're fine. If you drink when you're thirsty, you're fine. But it's not optimal. It's suboptimal. Optimal is more than that. Just like protein. There's optimal, there's what's essential. Just like with movement, there's essential and there's what's called.

[Sal DiStefano]

And in the context of exercise and moving, which most people listening to this are doing also. So it's like when you are doing exercises, I mean, this was an issue for me. I, when I remember I kept injuring myself and having pain.

[Doug Egge]

Oh, this was. I remember you're quad, right?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. And it just kept reoccurring and the thing I kept pointing to was like, you know what? I've never, I wasn't tracking. It wasn't. And as soon as I started like really pushing the water intake up, all that stuff went away. But just no, no more pain, no more pulling the quad anymore. It was just. And I wasn't under or under drinking water so much that I couldn't survive or live or get by. But it's like it was sub optimal for my training. The amount of training I was doing and lifting my, my joints. My body needed to be lubricated more and I wasn't giving it enough and simply bumping that up. Completely eliminated.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, it also, it also with, you know, with of course in combination with electrolyte balance, like this is how muscles contract and communicate and when it's optimal, they're going to contract and communicate. Well, you're going to move well, you're going to have good extensibility, good pliability. When things are suboptimal, they're just not moving as well. Okay. It's a bit more friction and that. Yeah. And that can cause. But with this one's interesting because when, when, if this is you, this is an easy fix. Like a couple days of drinking enough water and suddenly you're like, whoa.

[Gina]

The emotions one's a bit difficult, that one's tough.

[Doug Egge]

That's the hardest one by the way. Back to, you know, massage therapy I had in my studio, I had one of the best, you know, bodyworkers that I've ever met. Like, she was such an exceptional massage therapist. And I remember, you know, and what we do in my studio is I had all these different practitioners and ideally they would work with multiple people in there because I was the fitness expert. Then I had somebody do hormones. I had. You know, so we'd have people do all of them. And I can't tell you how many times clients will come out and. And they. And I'd be like, how was your massage? Like, I cried. Like. What do you mean you cried? Because it was so good. I don't know what happened. She was pressing on my psoas and. Or she was massaging me and I just felt these emotions release come out and it's like. And I remember I didn't understand it back then, but there's definitely a connection. Oh, yeah. Between all that stuff. So, anyway, I got something cool for you guys. The highest IQ ever recorded. You guys want to guess what that was?

[Gina]

Oh, I feel like I've read this before.

[Doug Egge]

It's making. It's the reason why this.

[Sal DiStefano]

Is it recent?

[Gina]

Wait, wait, is it. I mean, is it. What country is this person from?

[Doug Egge]

I think he's South Korean.

[Gina]

Okay.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, Korean. So the reason why this is going viral right now is because he just did a post that. What he said in the post was, Jesus Christ is king. And the reason why it's going viral is because this is the. The highest IQ ever recorded. Who is saying something that is spiritual, which. Which oftentimes the world thinks if you're really smart, then you're not, you know.

[Sal DiStefano]

Religious or vice versa. Interesting.

[Gina]

Sure.

[Doug Egge]

His IQ, 276.

[Sal DiStefano]

I didn't even know it went that high.

[Doug Egge]

176.

[Sal DiStefano]

I didn't know it went that high.

[Doug Egge]

He's got the official world record, Einstein. He's also a world memory champion with that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. What was Einstein's.

[Gina]

Look at that.

[Doug Egge]

And I mean, I know that they. What's his name?

[Gina]

Leonardo da Vinci is probably the. Because he's the master of so many things.

[Sal DiStefano]

I didn't even know that. Feels so stupid.

[Doug Egge]

This is the highest one.

[Sal DiStefano]

He was the IQ160. Yeah. I was going to say I thought 1/ hundreds was like crazy. Yeah. I didn't even know it went over 200.

[Doug Egge]

Over 120 is mental, right?

[Sal DiStefano]

Is over 120.

[Doug Egge]

What's over. Yeah.

[Gina]

Mensa's.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Gina]

That's a special class.

[Doug Egge]

Have you guys ever had your IQs tested?

[Sal DiStefano]

No.

[Doug Egge]

No. I'm a little bit afraid. A long time ago.

[Sal DiStefano]

And how'd you do.

[Doug Egge]

22 or something like that. So using his. I think there's other qualifications.

[Adam Schaefer]

So they're suggesting that da vinci was between 180 and 220.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, wow.

[Doug Egge]

This guy measured at 276. How do they test that?

[Gina]

Okay, so does that mean that he's amazing at multiple disciplines? So he also has, you know, artistic ability. He also has cognitive ability.

[Sal DiStefano]

How would Da Vinci rate higher than Einstein? I wouldn't if you gave me a trivia.

[Doug Egge]

Da Vinci was artistically brilliant. I knew that he was scientifically brilliant.

[Sal DiStefano]

So that. So it is Justin's point. It's. It's multiple disciplines.

[Doug Egge]

I don't know. That's a good question because if you.

[Sal DiStefano]

Had it, would you have guessed? If I had to guess Einstein or da Vinci, I would have said Einstein.

[Doug Egge]

Okay. I. IQ tests are used to measure an individual's cognitive abilities and intellectual potential. These tests are standardized assessments administered to evaluate various aspects of intelligence, like logical reasoning, problem solving, verbal and nonverbal.

[Sal DiStefano]

So then I'm assuming that da Vinci had all of them and like. And so maybe.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, it's gotta be. You know what's crazy about this, by the way? Okay, I'm gonna use. We use physical attributes as a. Just an analogy. You. When you have those genetically gifted, like top 1.1% athletes, right? Like an NFL superstar or NBA superstar or a world's strongest man competitor, like they're so far, in a way physically, I guess, superior. Just for you, you know, in terms of athletic performance away from the average person. It doesn't make any sense. Like if you've ever. If you've ever.

[Gina]

It's not even close.

[Doug Egge]

If you've ever been around a genetically gifted to that level professional athlete and done something with them, you realize just how they're like how minuscule your skills are.

[Sal DiStefano]

So the average person doesn't. I shouldn't say does oversimplification. Not many people really, I think, grasp what the, like the. How much that gap is because we. We get to watch it at the professional level.

[Doug Egge]

And so you're other super.

[Sal DiStefano]

Watching 1 percenters fight, for example, Wimby, right, who's behind me. Like, he is so crazy. But we're watching him in the NBA and he's so crazy. He's still crazy and he's crazy. Put that guy against average men that play basketball and it's like it doesn't little toddlers.

[Doug Egge]

So I know you have Justin, so I want your input on this too, because you played college football. But I remember at one point I Was so good at jiu jitsu that I could hang with. I could hang with anybody in the local schools. Black belts had a tough time tangling with me. I would lose to them, but they'd have a tough time. And then this guy came from Brazil who was a world champion. I don't remember his name. I just. I can't remember his name. He was a black belt. I was only a purple belt, so. But I'd gone against black belts, so I knew what it was like to go against competitive black belts. I'm fit. I think I'm good. And he schooled me so bad, you guys. I felt like I knew nothing. Like, nothing. Like, to the point where I remember I laughed after he tapped me out, like four times, I started laughing and I'm like, this is ridiculous. And he had poor English, you know. And then he was having fun with me because I was laughing and, you know, getting frustrated. And he would tell me, okay, I get your right arm. And he'd do a countdown and I couldn't stop it. Yeah. And he'd get me a submission, calling it out of heaven. And I just realized that there's such a crazy difference between, like, I'm good in my school versus world class.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

So the reason why I'm saying that is imagine a guy with an iq like this. Yeah. He must feel so bored.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, yeah, you must get. You must get really frustrated talking to the average person because, like, half of what comes out of our mouths, he's like, that's so stupid.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. It's like hanging out with five year olds.

[Gina]

Most governments just, like, take them from us. We never see them.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like when you're with 5 year olds, like, I like crayons and they're eating them. You're like, that's nice. Yeah, that's cool. That's, you know.

[Sal DiStefano]

You talking about jiu jitsu. Did you see. What is our. What is the guy's name? The famous actor who is also a caldera partnership with, like, us. He's Mario Lopez.

[Doug Egge]

Oh, caldera lab. Oh, he did the. He wrestled with.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. Did you watch him?

[Doug Egge]

He's a good wrestler, bro. Is he?

[Gina]

I didn't see.

[Sal DiStefano]

You know the Giorgio guy who does the. Take me down for a thousand dollars.

[Gina]

Oh, he did that with him, bro.

[Sal DiStefano]

He's. I think he. I think he carried himself better than anybody, yet.

[Doug Egge]

He's one of the best I've seen, Georgia.

[Gina]

I mean, saved by the bell years. He was like, always.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. And I Knew he. I knew he was into that stuff, but, I mean, Giorgio is whooping everybody.

[Doug Egge]

Georgio's incredible. I've seen him go against great grapplers. He's a great wrestler. Yeah. Mario Lopez is 50 or 50 something.

[Gina]

He doesn't look like that's.

[Doug Egge]

I know he was moving.

[Sal DiStefano]

I thought it was going to be like a. Like a, you know, play for publicity type of deal. And it's like, oh, he's gonna get whooped so fat. But he hung, dude.

[Doug Egge]

He did really.

[Gina]

I'll watch that.

[Sal DiStefano]

He did really good. Yeah. I don't know if Doug can pull it up in time, but, you know.

[Gina]

I know he boxes a lot, like, because I remember listening to some interview with him and somebody else famous. But that's how they get most of their training in his.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. I tell you what, I used to, you know, because he does.

[Doug Egge]

He was a wrestler, right?

[Sal DiStefano]

He does all the pops stuff. And so I've always thought he's kind of cheesy guy, but now I'm like, so much respect.

[Doug Egge]

Okay, so hold on. He was a high. A former high school wrestler. He was recognized as an outstanding American by the National Wrestling hall of Fame. In 2022, he was a state place winner in one class, California Wrestling for Chula Vista High School. So he's a. He's a badass. I think he also does jiu jitsu, so he continues to train, but. How old is he, Doug?

[Sal DiStefano]

He's 50.

[Doug Egge]

Is he 50 or 50?

[Sal DiStefano]

He's in his 50s. I don't know if he. What he is, but he's in his 50. 51.

[Doug Egge]

51. Dude.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. So impressed.

[Doug Egge]

He looks like a baby.

[Sal DiStefano]

I was so. I know.

[Doug Egge]

I mean, he colors his hair. Come on.

[Sal DiStefano]

Is that caldera lab? No, bro, it's that caldera lab right there.

[Doug Egge]

He's reversing a banana. Oh, speaking of which, of skin, I looked up the top five physical attributes that women consider attractive in a man.

[Sal DiStefano]

Skin.

[Doug Egge]

Top five. Skin made it. Really? Yeah, top five. I would not have thought it was in the category of hygiene. So they put teeth skin in there. So both in there.

[Sal DiStefano]

Interesting.

[Doug Egge]

And so I look deeper into it because. Okay, that's good.

[Gina]

I was challenging the sal a little bit off air. Like, sell me on. On me being, you know, as ornery as I am and my dry skin and everything else. Like, why should I, you know, if I'm just listening, why should I?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, but you don't have bad skin, though. I don't think you. I mean, you say you have dry skin or and you're in your ghost white. But you don't have bad skin. I think I have worse skin than you do. I mean there.

[Doug Egge]

A lab has definitely hydrated you for sure.

[Gina]

Yeah, it has.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. You were. You were like a desert.

[Sal DiStefano]

Maybe that's what it is.

[Gina]

I'm sure like ash.

[Sal DiStefano]

Maybe that's what it is. I'm used to seeing you now. And maybe that's what it was pre caldera lab.

[Doug Egge]

So here's what they are. Here's what the top things were. Right. Facial symmetry and masculine features. So like strong jawline, defined brow ridge. Okay. By the way, that's linked to higher testosterone levels. All of these signs are for vitality signals and for fertility. Right.

[Gina]

Virality is scars on there.

[Doug Egge]

No, but scars. That's funny that you say that. Scars do consider. Women do consider a trap.

[Sal DiStefano]

That wasn't top five though.

[Doug Egge]

No.

[Sal DiStefano]

Bird face. It's not up there.

[Doug Egge]

Hey, bird. Like nothing to say back.

[Sal DiStefano]

You got. Go ahead and check my cheeks.

[Doug Egge]

The next was height.

[Micah]

So.

[Doug Egge]

So height. Of course.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, height's top five, huh?

[Doug Egge]

That's number two. That's because evolutionary preferences. Right. Because it provides security. Probably better hunter, blah blah, blah.

[Gina]

Yeah, it's a big one.

[Doug Egge]

Muscular build was number three. Broad shoulders in particular, it was the hip to waist ratio.

[Sal DiStefano]

Wow.

[Doug Egge]

Excuse me. A shoulder to waist ratio of. Of 1.6 to 1. So your. Your shoulder should be 1.6 times the. The. The width of your waist. They considered that to be.

[Gina]

Well, if you got a big junk.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. Huh?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're. You're a little boxy, bro.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, he's got good shoulders. What are you talking about?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, but he's. He's also got big hips too.

[Gina]

I have to make sure I keep that ratio.

[Doug Egge]

He's so wide. He's got the ratio.

[Sal DiStefano]

He's got big hips though too.

[Doug Egge]

You got a good ratio. That's cuz you got small waist.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

You also got pretty wide shoulders though.

[Sal DiStefano]

I do. I'm winning so far. Except for the face. Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Like a string at the bottom. Posture and body language was up there. And then.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh wow.

[Doug Egge]

I like that at the end it was hygiene and skin is up there. And it's because skin. When your skin is well hydrated and healthy looking, it projects health and testosterone. High testosterone in men tends to give you a hydrated, not oily, but a little bit. Right. Of that look.

[Sal DiStefano]

Is that true?

[Doug Egge]

Yes. Yeah, absolutely. You know, it darkens her skin a little bit too. Do you know that?

[Sal DiStefano]

I didn't know that.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. Testosterone Darkens skin a little bit.

[Sal DiStefano]

Huh.

[Doug Egge]

Huh.

[Sal DiStefano]

Interesting.

[Doug Egge]

So, yeah. So there you go, fellas.

[Sal DiStefano]

I like macho dudes.

[Doug Egge]

You want to get some girls, man?

[Sal DiStefano]

We should have tried to guess those, because I would know. I don't know if I would have guessed those or not. I like that.

[Doug Egge]

What were your. What would you think?

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, I don't know. I hadn't thought about it, so. But when you were saying. Yeah, I would probably would have went that direction. Like, certain things.

[Doug Egge]

Like, you know what makes the top 10?

[Sal DiStefano]

What?

[Doug Egge]

Butt.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, butt.

[Doug Egge]

Does women like a nice butt?

[Sal DiStefano]

I don't. I don't think that's weird. I think, girl. I think actually it's.

[Doug Egge]

We.

[Sal DiStefano]

We tend to think that guys only think of that. But like, every girl I've ever talked to a guy with a nice butt for different reasons.

[Gina]

I think it's just if you don't have one, it's a problem.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gina]

But they don't really, you know.

[Doug Egge]

Well, it's for different reasons.

[Gina]

They don't obsess over.

[Doug Egge]

This is what the scientists say. Right. For different reasons. Like, for women, like men, like a. A butt.

[Gina]

Because we obsess over it.

[Sal DiStefano]

For breeding reasons.

[Doug Egge]

Well, yeah, because of hips. It's more hips than anything.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

You're probably more likely to have a successful childbirth, but for men, like, like, weak glutes or hips, you ain't a lot of. No. Yeah, no, I mean, you know this, right, Justin, the guys on the football field with. With the cakes. Yeah. Yeah.

[Gina]

I was in contention with me.

[Doug Egge]

I want to hear from you what your experience was like as a football player, because you were a star football player in high school.

[Sal DiStefano]

I was.

[Doug Egge]

You were the man.

[Gina]

Yeah, I know. You were like, so Uncle Rico, dude. For sure. Like, my glory days, dude. They came and went. Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

And then you got to college and then.

[Gina]

Well, it was, like, humble. It was. It was. It was easy, you know, and that. That was, like. It was such. It was so misleading for me because I trained really hard, and I've always had to train really hard to produce, you know, athleticism and the level that I was at. But I would walk circles around everybody, like, at the high school level, and I was just like, oh, man, I'm really good at this, you know, and then I get into college, and, you know, I still could hold my own. But then it got really hard once we started to play more like D1 level type talent.

[Doug Egge]

Do you remember the first time that you had that awakening where you were.

[Gina]

Like, oh, we played this school because, like, we Were in, like, a small school. Well, even like, when I was trying out for San Jose State and I had to, like, I was like a walk on. And there was guys on there that were just like, you know, transfers from, like, Miami and from all these, like, you know, powerhouse schools, and they're just using us as, like, tackling dummies. And oh, my God, that's the first time I've been, like, legit run over with full effort.

[Doug Egge]

You got trucked. Trucked, Yeah, I was.

[Gina]

I just like, I had. They pulled me out to the side and I had to, like, recover. And of course my Henri ass went right back in there for more. And I'm sure that's why I don't have a lot of good memory recall. But, yeah, stuff like that happened, and then I just kind of worked through it and I just. It was a grind. Like, I had. I just. I. I looked that as a challenge. I had to just get stronger. And. And then once I finished college and was like, thinking about, you know, trying to do the combine, that was where I was like, I'm done. I'm done. Because there were everybody. There was at least like 6, 7, 6, 8, like, full on all the same stuff. Muscle and running way faster than me.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Gina]

And jumping higher than me. Like, they could just jump over me. Just like. This isn't even close.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's crazy how many levels are within all the levels, too, right? So, like, you're describing just the call high school to college, like, even. Well, and even within, like, high school. So, I mean, I was never the. The star football player, but when I was at a division for high school, my first high school, so my freshman year, and I was a star player. I was the star player. Most points scored, steals everything. I let everybody.

[Doug Egge]

Awesome.

[Sal DiStefano]

Just awesome. Right? And, you know, and I. And I was pretty good at all the other sports. Soccer I was really good at, too, back then. Then I get transferred to a Division 2 school. Yeah. And I rode the bench. My fucking parents flipped out. Like, they just couldn't. They were like, how could our son, who was like this star player. But I knew it. I'm. These kids are fucking better than me. Like, I was. I practice with them every day. You know what I'm saying? And it's just like, it's such a humbling experience.

[Doug Egge]

It's actually a good. Now looking back. It sucked, but it's such a great.

[Sal DiStefano]

It was good for me because I was not the kid who was just like, yeah, I should get playing. I was like, no, they're better than me. I need to fucking practice because. But I was used to being so good and then just going up two levels within high school. I wasn't even at D1 and then I'm not even talking about college. So it's crazy how, you know, you're in your little bubble and maybe you are good in your little bubble of friends. And it's just like you get introduced to the world and it's.

[Doug Egge]

There's levels to all this, like productivity. Like whether you love them or hate them, like Elon Musk, whether you're a fan of his or not, the productivity the guy does, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The companies he's managing.

[Sal DiStefano]

You know what they say, does he.

[Doug Egge]

Not sleep and then he plays video games. He's like top right.

[Gina]

I don't think he does sleep much.

[Doug Egge]

Might not. Right.

[Sal DiStefano]

He's also miserable as fuck. But. But you know, do you know they attribute like people like him. One of. There's many factors, but one of the number one factors is the speed at which they make decisions.

[Doug Egge]

Fast.

[Sal DiStefano]

Super fast. And think about your day. Like, like how many things. Like everything from what you need to eat to how you're doing.

[Doug Egge]

Ha.

[Sal DiStefano]

A lot. Yeah, we do him and ha. A lot. We're all guilty of this. If you go through your whole day, how many things do you deliberate between this or that and the. And those minutes? Five minutes here, seven minutes there. I mean, yeah. I mean look at how long it takes us sometimes to start a podcast. It takes nine minutes sometimes, sometimes longer. It's just like that doesn't exist in a guy like that. Like everything is a quick right now decision, you know, deal with the consequences.

[Doug Egge]

Later if it was wrong. It's like that's what I'm. That's the question I was going to ask. Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Do you think.

[Doug Egge]

Because you can make the argument that pondering a decision improves your odds of making the right decision, but does that percentage improvement.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay.

[Doug Egge]

Does that. Could you make up for it with the speed?

[Sal DiStefano]

So this is my.

[Doug Egge]

Because then you can read it.

[Sal DiStefano]

My theory on this is that so pondering translates better to wisdom. Speed translates better to success and like and production.

[Doug Egge]

Or maybe just getting to wisdom. Maybe you just make fast.

[Sal DiStefano]

You know what I'm saying? Like that there are two different ways to get to wisdom. They both get wisdom, but this, the person who just makes decisions gets into a lot of failures and reps the wiz. The ponder. Mental reps. Yeah, the ponder. Sit there, meditates, thinks about like plays it out in his mind, like, and that can also get to wisdom too. But the, the one who just goes and takes action is. I'm always trying to be better at that in, in my life of just like. And you probably feel that energy from me sometimes where I'm just very direct.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's like, that's a, that's an attribute that I'm aware of that makes very, very successful founders, is that ability. No, this is what we're doing. Like, let's just go. Let's just go. You know, I'm saying. And I'll deal with the consequences if I'm wrong. Like, I've already, I'm already playing it out five steps ahead.

[Doug Egge]

What does Doug call it? Ready? Shoot, Aim.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a lot of. What would I think connected all of us. We have, we do have a bit of that action get together of just go. But it is something that some of your, your, your most famous founders, successful CEOs have is they just the speed at which they make decisions. They don't fuck around. Everything from eating to whatever, it's just like, just there. I'll do this.

[Doug Egge]

You know what I'm saying? Interesting.

[Sal DiStefano]

And then when you think about that, that compounds. I mean, if you're shaving three minutes between every, between the 20 decisions you had to make today.

[Doug Egge]

You know what? You know what's funny is I wonder how Val. It's probably so valuable when you're younger, if you're, if you're driven. In other words, like, okay, I know what I want to accomplish. In other words, I'm not waffling. I want to be successful at this one thing. When you're young and you have less, the consequences are less painful. You don't have a family to support. Doesn't matter if I fail a million times because I'm living at my mom's house or whatever. It probably makes sense to be fast.

[Sal DiStefano]

Totally.

[Doug Egge]

Because you're just going to learn faster that way, you know? And if you fail, that's what you.

[Gina]

Start and then you work your way.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, I feel like that's how I'll be parenting my son when we get there, when he's like, interested in something, I'll definitely be pushed. Go, go do it. You think you can do it? Go, go, go do it. And then, and then when he fails, like, okay, maybe it's not for you or cool on to the next thing like, or whatever. Or get back up. Let's try it again. Like, I definitely will encourage that. Like, I don't I don't have a lot of patience for the waffling. Like, oh, should I? I don't know what I want to do. It's like, well, how do you. The reason why you don't know what you want to do because you're not doing shit. Did I ever do some shit and find out what you like and you don't like?

[Doug Egge]

Did I ever tell you there was a buddy of mine that wanted to start a business with me and he wrote a business plan and he was forever. And he told me why. All the reasons and the numbers and why we can and we shouldn't. I'm like, I'm doing this. I'm not doing this with you. I'm doing it on my own.

[Sal DiStefano]

I have a family.

[Doug Egge]

It's like paralysis by analysis.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. I have a family member that I mentor business wise, trying to help him out. He's serial entrepreneur type of mindset. But it drives me crazy on how long he deliberates over things like that. I'm just like, bro, go do that thing. And he's always looking at it like, oh, that's beneath me, or why would I do that? I'm just like, bro, go. Because I can't tell you how many times just taking action led to something I would have never thought would have happened. You know, it's like, you know, versus you, like, analyzing. Well, that's not really worth my time and I'm only gonna get paid this. And how's that really? It's like, bro, what are you doing right now? You're just sitting here arguing with me. You could be working, making some sort of money, and that could lead to a relationship. That relationship could lead to this thing. And it's like, I don't even know. But go, go. It drives me crazy to do that, you know?

[Doug Egge]

No, I agree with that. I got some interesting information on creatine in women. It may be, and I'll pull it up right here. It may be more important. I've argued this before, but it's probably more important for women to supplement with creatine than even men. Women have 20 to 30% lower natural creatine production and intake, leading to reduced stores, which means it's far. It's probably even more important for women to take. This is why when you look at the mood lifting antidepressant effects of creatine, it's strongest in women and it's strongest in the subcategory of postpartum and menopause. So women, after you have a baby or when you're in menopause. Creatine is because you, you're not making enough of it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Now what do you mean by because due to the stores? Does that mean they downregulate the ability to store? Because they're not intaking very much?

[Doug Egge]

They, because they don't produce as much creatine? Yeah, they have less stored in their body. They just have less creatine in their body.

[Sal DiStefano]

Just in general.

[Doug Egge]

Just in general.

[Sal DiStefano]

So. Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

And as a.

[Sal DiStefano]

So, so the truth. Well, because the dosage has always been been dependent on the size of the muscle mass. That's kind of. No, no, that's how we've done it. That's how we did it historically.

[Doug Egge]

You're right, you're right. But what these studies are doing, they're controlling for that. So there is an amount of creatine a man will produce to his muscle.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

There's an amount of woman will produce to muscle. Hers is still lower as a.

[Sal DiStefano]

In the percentage. Is it safe to say that there's a chance that you may actually want to take more as a woman than even a man?

[Doug Egge]

No, no, no, no. 5 to 15 grams is where 5 grams for muscle upwards, because they're that much for brain.

[Sal DiStefano]

15? Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

20 for brain. Yeah, 15 to 20 for brain.

[Sal DiStefano]

Unless you were abnormally large, muscular.

[Doug Egge]

It's so crazy to me because the, the female demographic is the last demographic to adopt. Taking creatine because of the fear of I'm gonna hold water, water I'm gonna get. It's the best possible supplement a woman can take, especially for women, is to take creatine. And it's starting to blow up. You're starting to see it. And now there's by the way, that you guys, the data on creatine and dementia, I, we are, we're not that long, we're not that far away from this being a, like this is part of your therapy. When you are in cognitive decline. We're going to put you on creatine monohydrate.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean I, I hope they do what I'm very interested to see because we continue to see these studies that are starting to show more and more and high, higher doses, cognitive benefits. It's like what happens if you like mega dose for a while with someone like that diarrhea? I mean. Yeah, but what if you mega dose and spread it out like.

[Doug Egge]

Well, 20 grams is a mega dose and that's what they're showing for brain health.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

So that's, you know that you would have to take 5 grams, four times a day. You don't want to take 20 grams all at once. I've done that. It's not. It's not cool. But 5 grams or 3 grams at a time, spread out throughout the day. Amazing. For. For brain function, performance health. So pretty.

[Gina]

And what did you say it was? Psyllium husk. That was for like the microplastics?

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Helps kind of address that.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. Take that with your meals.

[Gina]

Yeah. That combo and creatine.

[Doug Egge]

I know.

[Gina]

I'm like, always like, okay. All these things.

[Doug Egge]

I swear. Part of my protocol now because of my supplement addiction. There's a lot of bad things that I've done. Some good stuff. There's some accidental good things. Yeah.

[Gina]

You're on the silicon and creatine.

[Doug Egge]

I've been taking creatine, dude, non stop, since I was 16, back when they said that it would. It would hurt your kidneys. And I didn't care because I was a kid. I want to get muscles now. It's like, oh, cool. I've been doing this healthy thing and then psyllium husk. I've been taking that for gut health issues for 15 years maybe. And so it probably has been helping me get rid of microplastics. Yeah. Out of my body, which is, you know, pretty good.

[Gina]

I'm interested.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. Pretty cool. All right. I wanted to talk about. So we're supposed to mention Rock Recovery, and I got to bring something up to people who may have a family member or friend or maybe themselves are struggling with addiction. When I'm looking up the data on addiction, one of the worst possible things is when you keep it to yourself or you keep it. You don't let. Bring it out into the light.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Addiction flourishes. Dysfunction flourishes in the dark. And our friends at Rock Recovery give away a scholarship where if you win, you get. I forget, was it how much? 4 months treatment with them, I believe, Doug. But they. But they'll call and help everybody. So no matter who you are, you get them to help point you in the right direction.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

But at the very least, I could see just talking about it with one of those guys.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, we've been getting so much great feedback from even people that didn't win the scholarship. Just the. The team over there has been very supportive of everybody. So if you, you know, even if you don't at least try to win. Right. And even if you don' they've been great pointing people in the right direction or getting them help, regardless if they win the scholarship or not.

[Doug Egge]

I love them. All right, cool. Study on psilocybin and depression. So I don't think this pharmaceutical industry is going to like this, but a study came out that show this was in 2025, phase two trial. A single dose of psilocybin gives long term relief from symptoms of depression, anxiety. Do you want to know how long it lasted for?

[Sal DiStefano]

I thought it was permanent.

[Doug Egge]

No. Well. Well, this study was done for two years, so I don't know how much longer.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, I thought, I thought we've seen studies that like. Like PTSD stuff where they do one treatment and then it's like gone away.

[Doug Egge]

Well, this study was done for this long and that's how long they shot these. So who knows if they stretch it out longer. By the way, this was done on cancer patients. So the reason why they were able to get this treatment. Although in some states you can get psilocybin treatment. I know you can. Here in California, you can actually hire, I believe, a therapist and they'll use psilocybin in their therapy. But this was cancer patients. So these are people who are like, you know, in your terminal, like, depression is a big, big problem. Sure. And they did psilocybin with a therapist and after one treatment, had relief for two years.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Wow. Like, that's not a money maker for the pharma industry. That's profound at all.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's profound.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I. I mean, we've talked about this for quite some time on the podcast. I really hope that in. In the near future we see it used more regularly. On the therapeutic side.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I've had nothing but positive myself, personally, when Katrina and I have used it. I've had family members that have used it. I've had friends and everybody. I know that when you do it with the right intent. Right. This is not.

[Doug Egge]

You got to be careful.

[Sal DiStefano]

This isn't getting high with your buddies on the weekend like going to a rave or concert.

[Doug Egge]

You got to be careful because if you're not with a licensed therapist and you're not doing it right, right dose, you can actually make things far worse. You can get PTSD from psilocybin or you can unlock things.

[Gina]

Psychosis or something.

[Doug Egge]

Yes, or psychosis. So very important you do this with a. With a professional, because I know somebody, I know somebody that read these studies, decided she was going to do it on her own, and she ended up getting PTSD from the actual experience.

[Sal DiStefano]

I went too hard, too fast.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, totally.

[Doug Egge]

All right, I got a controversial topic for you guys on parenting.

[Sal DiStefano]

Let's hear it.

[Doug Egge]

I know you wanted me to bring some of these.

[Sal DiStefano]

I like this stuff.

[Doug Egge]

I found another one.

[Sal DiStefano]

Let's hear it.

[Doug Egge]

Spanking for children. Spanking.

[Sal DiStefano]

Do we beat our kids for children?

[Doug Egge]

Is. I can tell you what the data shows.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I don't want to hear that. I want to hear everyone's opinion first. Then. Then you can make your debate. You can make your data.

[Doug Egge]

I'll tell you my opinion. Yeah, I. I do not like spanking. I think. I think you can be effective. I can. You can be totally effective without ever having to inflict physical pain or that kind of fear. It's not the same as respect. I. With my older kids, I can re. I know exactly how many times I spanked them because it was. I did not like it. I spanked my son once on his hands and my daughter once on her hands, and I saw the look on their face, and I remember thinking, like, what am I doing? Like, I'm a giant, and I'm, like, physically imposing myself on this little kid as a punishment. And I think there's other ways you could. You could raise your kids. Now, that being said, my culture, like, my mom threw shoes at us, and, you know, they raised, you know, nine kids when my grand. You know, my mom was a kid. They were poor. So I could see how mom is using the fast method. Method of getting obedience, maybe. But, yeah, I'm opposed. I'm opposed to spanking.

[Sal DiStefano]

So I have a really interesting feeling around it because I'm. I'm pro.

[Doug Egge]

Have you ever spanked Matt?

[Sal DiStefano]

That's the crazy part. Six years, and I never have.

[Doug Egge]

What would make you spank him? What would you need to do to spank him?

[Sal DiStefano]

So he wouldn't. He would need to do something that. I'm trying to interrupt it so fast that, like, either it's dangerous or really bad in the moment. Yeah, In. Oh, yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Like, he's.

[Sal DiStefano]

I would never be the dad of. Like, when I get home from work, I'm going to whoop your ass. You know what I'm saying? Like, it wouldn't be like that. It would be like, I see him doing, like. Like, if I saw him getting ready to hit a kid over the head with something that would really hurt a kid or actually hurt a kid like, that. I would walk over and whack the. Out of. No, you do not do that.

[Doug Egge]

You would.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

[Doug Egge]

But you haven't experienced it yet, dude.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, here's the thing. What I say that, but then. Yet I never have. Now, what I have found is because in my Household. We've been so consistent with the way we talk, even around him. Like, Max doesn't hear a raised voice, bro.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So I bring up one octave, and that kid.

[Doug Egge]

That's enough.

[Sal DiStefano]

That kid freezes.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So I. I bet if he was about to hit a kid with something and I actually yelled, holy. I guarantee he would. He would drop in his. Stop in his tracks because he's never heard or seen that from me. So even though I'm not against spaking for those reasons, and in a situation like that, I have to admit that I'm six years in and I've never had to do it. And so I. So I don't. I don't want to. I'm not looking to do it. But I also wouldn't hesitate if I thought it was necessary in the moment to interrupt that pattern to correct really bad behavior. I just. My son has been so well behaved, and even in the moments of misbehaving, I've been able to. To stop it in its tracks with my voice.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, so.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, so I. So I guess it's like it's. I wrestle with it because I haven't had to do it, but yet I'm a guy who would have. If you would ask me before my son, hey, are you going to spank your kid if he does something? And I would have said, yeah, I.

[Doug Egge]

Can think of a scenario for me where I would get physical, but it wouldn't be when they were little. It would be if I'm going to create a fake scenario. My son is 15. He's big. He's feeling, you know, strong in his britches, and he gets super aggressive with his mom. Maybe, because you'll see this sometimes with teenage boys when their testosterone's high and they're yelling at mom and they're getting physical. I may show him what time it is. I may grab him and put him down, hold him down and say, I'm the big dog in the house to show him. But other than that, I don't know. I don't know. What do you think?

[Gina]

Yeah, I think my views changed a bit over the years with this. And I came from a house that was very, very pro spanking.

[Sal DiStefano]

So was I.

[Gina]

To the point where you had, like, wooden spoon. Everything else in the house that was used on me, and it was difficult because I was a fighter. And so I. I knew that that was the punishment. And so I went right, you know, to test the degree of where they would go with that. So, you know, it was kind of like, that was super dysfunctional, and I didn't think that it was handled well with me. And so initially, like, early on, I think, like, correcting things was important to me when it was egregious. So let's say, for instance, like my son. I don't remember what the instance was, but it was egregious. Like, it was like, where he, like, spit in Courtney's face.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Gina]

Deliberately and, like, made them like. No. And, like, it was, like fighting it. And, you know, and then. But what I did practice before I spanked was he had to go to his room and think about what he did. He had to tell me what he did first, and then I had to tell him why I'm doing it. And this is a consequence of what you just did up there. So there's a lot of communication beforehand. And the spank is not even violent. The spank is like a tap.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Gina]

So I think very different from the spankings we got.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes.

[Gina]

It's not.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Gina]

So it's not like I heard him. I don't feel any remorse over either. I don't. Because it did correct him. It did, like, shake him out of his self. Centered, like, repeated patterns.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Gina]

So I don't. I don't know.

[Doug Egge]

Many times have you spanked your kids? Was it just.

[Gina]

It's like maybe three times total of, like, between the two. That was like one and then two.

[Doug Egge]

I feel like if you spanked your kid in their whole life and they're teenagers by now, two or three times. You're anti spanking parents who are pro spanking. Oh, yeah. It's like five a week.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, I was. Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

What they use.

[Gina]

I would say that then.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Yeah. I was spanked. I was. Same with Justin.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Spoon, spatulas.

[Doug Egge]

Like, that was like the number one.

[Sal DiStefano]

We had a thing that hung on the wall that was for. Right, right. And. But now the interesting thing about that, although I do I. My one traumatic childhood, like. Like, thing that I have is. Is a time. But my mom lost it on me as a kid, like, so, like, all the other times I got spanked, I'd actually prefer the spanking over the grounding of the room.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So if I had it, if my mom came in, it was just like, you up Same.

[Gina]

You didn't hurt me.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're either getting a spoon or you're in your room all day long. Be like, give me the spoon. You know, I turn right around. Like, I'll take the ass whooping. The only time that I have trauma from it is. My mom literally lost her on me one time and just like, beat the. Out of me. Like, it was not like a spanking. It was like a parent losing her and out of control, which that is crazy to me. And that's.

[Doug Egge]

That.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's different. That's. To me, that's beating a kid. That's not spanking. A kid spanking used to interrupt a pattern to me. And Jordan Peterson talks about this in 12 Rules of Life in the chapter six. And I think that he communicates it really well on the power and the value of it and, like, kind of his point of view on it. And I think I adopt that philosophy now. I'm going to do my best to go 18 years and not have to. So I'm not looking to spank my kids.

[Doug Egge]

It's so funny. We're all anti spanking based off of this. So people who use corporal punishment and are like, yes, I'm pro. It average about 18 spankings per week. 18 a week with their kids.

[Sal DiStefano]

Whoa.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. With their kids. Because this is what they use. This is what they use as part. This is how they. They get their kids anywhere close that you can remember the few times I can't even think.

[Sal DiStefano]

Think of my kid doing something 18.

[Doug Egge]

Times that would even, you know, they're.

[Gina]

Not communicating with them.

[Doug Egge]

They're just. I remember the two times I ever did in my entire life. And so, Doug, did you. Have you ever spanked Brie or had any.

[Adam Schaefer]

I slapped her in the hand one time. And, you know, I grew up. Spanking was normalized.

[Doug Egge]

I got spanked a few times.

[Adam Schaefer]

Teachers would have paddles, wooden paddles in their rooms, prominently displayed as a threat. And so I grew up thinking, well, that's what you do, is you just spank kids when they're bad. And then I slap Bree's hand. And at that point, it just didn't feel good for me.

[Doug Egge]

Terrible.

[Gina]

I mean, for what?

[Adam Schaefer]

Didn't feel good for her either. But, you know, I felt horrible. Like, what am I doing? I'm striking this little girl.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

And how is violence going to help, you know, solve this?

[Sal DiStefano]

I can't imagine it on Max right now. It just seems unfathomable to me now we're only six years in, so maybe when he's a 9, 10, maybe when he becomes a little.

[Doug Egge]

I think there's going to be a point because especially with. With. With young men when they're teenagers, where they start to feel themselves and they're trying to be the big lion.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Doug Egge]

Where you need to maybe check them a little bit. I don't think, you know, beat them, but, you know, there's a little bit of that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Like, I. I. Can we get a lot of that.

[Gina]

Out by just wrestling with them. Yeah, I've been doing that because that is coming, like, and I feel that energy.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. And it's.

[Gina]

There's a lot of, like, testing, you know, and so, yeah, I. I'm all for. I encourage it, but, like, I know I have to do that, otherwise it'll keep building up and turn into something real violent.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, Yeah. I think they're. I think doing that, too, is a way of. You state. Like, I think, kids, that. Again, this is me speculating, because I'm not anywhere near. There is. I think that when you start to lose that connection and that relationship with that kid, this is where this. This is where you kind of. You get disconnected a little bit. Whereas if your kid's always feeling you and feeling your energy and knows you, like, I don't. I don't know if you need to. Like, I don't feel like, yeah, like, my son is gonna feel, like, my physical presence when I wrestle with him. Like. Like, so I don't see him challenging that, because I'm going to remind him all the way up, you know, in a fun way. Right. In a playful way. You'll feel that energy of death.

[Gina]

You even have to bark at him now, you know?

[Doug Egge]

True. I had. I had to raise my voice to my. My teenage daughter, but only because I never do. And I think she got to a place where she mistook my kindness for weakness. And so when she saw that in me, I think she was like, oh, okay, dad means it. But. But spanking and hitting it. It's like, I can't.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's where I think. I think that if you.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

If you've been consistent like that. I mean, that's why it's. It's so powerful. See, I grew up in a crazy, chaotic, loud screaming. Like, so hearing your mom scream at you is. This doesn't interrupt the pattern enough because she's constantly screaming at her husband. Like, it's like, so you got to throw something else so they. So that she had to level it up. Like, that's a good point. And so that was to interrupt the pattern where I think in my house, it's so, like, interrupting the pattern for. Max is looking at him hard. Like, if I give him a look, the kid starts crying, and I'm like, calm down, dude. Like, you upset daddy. But I'm not like, that bad. But I mean, that's how. That's how consistent.

[Doug Egge]

Good point.

[Sal DiStefano]

So, like, it doesn't take much to interrupt that.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. If you grow up in a violent type of atmosphere. Yeah, like.

[Sal DiStefano]

Like, how do you level that up exactly? If you hear. If your kids hear you. You. And even if you're not in a. Like, obviously mine was another level. But even if you're at a. Like, I have friends that aren't nowhere near the level that I grew up in, but they yell at each other in front of their kids, and your kids see you yelling at each other, so of course they yell and act out all the time because they think that's normal communication. So then if they do something really bad, it's even more egregious, and you have to go to the next level to show them that this isn't just a normal day. Because on normal days, we yell and fight, but it's like, now I got to really interrupt that pattern. Whereas if you don't ever do that, just as simple, raising the tone or the way I say something is like, oh, that ain't normal.

[Doug Egge]

Like, yeah. I think in this studies, when they look at spanking, they're looking at people that this is what they use regularly. Not like, oh, I spanked my kids once in their life, but rather, this is one of the tools that I use to raise my children. The meta analysis on this is not good. It is not good. I mean, a Meta analysis of 75 studies involving 160,000 children found that spanking was linked to increased aggression, antisocial behavior, and defiance. The exact opposite of the things that you're trying to correct. It also was associated with worse social emotional development. It's linked to anxiety, depression, and substance abuse. And it also erodes trust and worsen. Worsens relationships between children and their parents. They also showed that spanking was linked to lower inhibitory control and cognitive flexibility. In other words, it made them more impulsive as well. So it's just not. It's just not a great option. Now the question is, why did it exist for so long? I'll tell you why I know. Because my parents. My dad was so poor growing up that he had to start working to give money to his mom by the age of nine. So in other words, he had to not go to school. So I don't know, what grade are you at 9 years old? Stop going to school because they didn't have enough money, had to go work, and wouldn't bring his mom the little bit of money that he Made. She was trying to raise six kids, and they didn't have, you know, microwaves or dishwasher. They didn't have a phone. In fact, he grew up with a bathroom that was outside the house, like an outhouse almost, until he got a little older. My grandfather worked all the time. And so you're raising this. You're in this insanity, and you're like, I don't got time to sit down and talk to you. You got to listen to me right now. Because. And so I could see how that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Was also probably six kids in a house. That's probably loud and chaotic, too.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So you have to. I really think society was like, I really think that a kid's brain. If. If there's a lot of chaos in the house. And again, it. Chaos doesn't have to be, like, abuse and horrible, just. Just loud and just fighting and yelling. You know, if that's normal, then to interrupt that pattern as a parent, you. You have to kind of take it to another level. And so depending on where you can keep your level in your house, really can dictate, I think, the difference here. Well, one of the.

[Doug Egge]

One of the. One of the things that this addresses is this myth that, like, when people see, like, adolescents or teenagers acting crazy, their instinct is be like, well, their mama need to, you know, beat their ass more or they're not getting enough spankings at home. That's not what happened. What happened was they probably didn't have a dad, and they probably didn't have a good relationship with their parents for whatever reason, and that's what led to it. Not the lack of. Of. Of spanking.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, it's a lack of love.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, that's. I mean, that's why I teach Max. I teach Max. That's what. That's what creates.

[Doug Egge]

But just. It feels so weird. Like I said, like, the two times I hit my kids on the hand, I just was like, what am I.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, I get it, because the thought of hitting. Hitting Max just tears me up, because I know how he is to react to things right now. I'm like, I can't imagine.

[Doug Egge]

No.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Which I would traumatize that kid where he's at right now. But again, I would. I wouldn't. If I felt like I needed to. I'm not opposed it. If I felt like. If he did something crazy to his mom that was just so out of line and in the moment, like, yeah, I know. You bet your ass. I would. I would lay the law. But it's like, I don't think. I hope I don't need to. I hope I can.

[Doug Egge]

I can think of extreme examples. But, you know, I have a. I have a family friend whose 15 year old was doing drugs and he found him with his dealer. And dad's like, get in the car. He's like, you can't tell me what to do. So dad physically wrestled his ass in the car, mom took off. Yeah, I would do the same thing.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, I remember, I. So this wasn't a physical thing, but the first time I ever. I'll never forget, I remember the first time I even raised my voice to Max, and I was vacuuming the living room. He was probably three at this time. Three or four, he was. And I'm vacuuming upstairs and I turn around and he's getting ready to stick something in the plug. Oh, and I yelled at him and he froze and started crying and this and that. I went, oh, wow. Like that. But, I mean, I don't regret it. Yeah, I need to interrupt that pattern right there. Save the kid's damn life. Right. And so I think of it like that. It's like there's something in the moment. If he's about to hit a kid with a bat over the head or do something really harmful or something like that, like whack. Yeah, Hell yeah, I would whack him to interrupt that pattern. Be like, hey, you don't do that. Like, so, I mean, to me, there are examples where I don't think I would hesitate if I felt. Although I don't. I'm gonna try my best to avoid that in six years now I haven't had to, so. But who knows? We'll see what the teenage years bring.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. By the way, spanking, Doug, the. The paddling of children. Did you know that? They think that that may be why some people find that sexually arousing. Yeah. Because they're going through. You had boys going through puberty, adolescence, and then they'd have the female nuns.

[Sal DiStefano]

I've heard.

[Doug Egge]

I've heard you whack them on the butt.

[Sal DiStefano]

I've heard you say that before, but that's like, that's still popular and that's been gone for a long time. Like that's popular with someone who's 20 right now, like guarantee some 20.

[Doug Egge]

Well, they think that's maybe where it start. I mean, you're right.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, right.

[Sal DiStefano]

Like, like, like it definitely stayed around even after the. Even the spanking stuff.

[Doug Egge]

Well, now it's a whole different problem. Pornography that makes everything seem normal.

[Gina]

I'VE seen the secretary.

[Doug Egge]

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[Adam Schaefer]

Our first caller is Jen from the uk.

[Doug Egge]

Hello, Jen. Morning.

[Sal DiStefano]

Hi. How you doing, Jen?

[Doug Egge]

Good, how are you?

[Gina]

Good afternoon there. Who knows?

[Micah]

I'm so excited to be speaking to you guys. I can't believe it. I started listening to your podcast two or three months ago and it's just been so, so helpful. So thank you. Awesome. Thanks for having me on.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, wonderful. How can we help you?

[Micah]

So I'll just go right into my question. Is that. Just read out how I. How I wrote it. Yes, perfect. So I started strength training about just under a year ago now and I was working with a PT or a coach, as you guys would say. I was really consistent with it. I had done a wee bit of weights before, but then like just under a year ago, I started being really consistent. I was doing four days a week. I was doing like an upper, lower body split. I did a bit of a, like a cut, if you like, a calorie deficit at the end of last year and kind of was quite successful in shifting a bit of body fat. Didn't have a huge amount of muscle at that point, but it was kind of a good starting place. Reverse diet at the beginning of this year, which again, I felt went really well. I was kind of. I got quite up to a decent sort of maintenance calories and then tried to go in a bit of a surplus. This was all kind of working with my coach and then basically I did too much. I was. I can see that after listening to you guys in the podcast. And I've definitely just added an extra session and it was too much. And about three weeks into that, got some tennis elbow and some right shoulder pain. So that was just an absolute disaster. I had a pause for a few weeks. I've stopped working with the coach, just temporarily because I've just felt there was no point. Started seeing a physio. So I've been kind of working on my arm. It is, it's still there. It's still a problem, but it's getting better. I am now at the point where I'm doing, actually I'm halfway Through Maps Anabolic now. So I'm just doing two or three. I kind of alternate two or three full body workouts a week and I'm just managing the arm. I'm just kind of trying to keep the weights a wee bit lower on the things that I know are going to aggravate it. And yeah, I feel like that's kind of going okay. So I'm pleased with that. And I really like Maps Anabolic. I've had to sub out a few things, but on the whole I'm kind of, I'm sticking with it. Question is that my goal is absolutely to build muscle. It always was from when I started. Obviously the arm is a problem and I'm not able to lift as heavy as I could or as I was. But where. So my calories at the moment are reasonably high, but they're pretty much maintenance. I think I'm not really gaining much weight because of the arm and there's obviously a bit of inflammation and stuff. Where can I put the calories to? Can I go into like a bulk or a building phase with the arm like this or am I best just kind of sticking with what I'm doing and not expecting kind of to build too much at the moment? What would you suggest?

[Doug Egge]

Well, so this is a programming situation. So when you're feeling pain, typically where I'll look, unless a person's like overstressed, terrible sleep, too low calories, those can also contribute, but typically it's a programming issue. Maps Anabolic is fine from a volume perspective, but it's a lot of bilateral exercise. And the problem with bilateral exercise when one side hurts is it can actually slow down the progress of healing. Okay, so a unilateral based program would be, would be beneficial for you and I would use the side that hurts as the gauge for the weight and the reps for the other side and that will allow the recovery to happen a bit faster. So will being in a surplus.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. As I say, with that being said, adding calories too would be the ultimate. So we definitely can build muscle. I just think I would switch her over to symmetry. Bump calories by 250, 300 and you should be doing pretty good.

[Doug Egge]

Yep, Yep, that's it.

[Micah]

Here's the thing. It doesn't really hurt when I'm lifting. It's more like the day after a gauge it by that. So it's difficult to know whether I'm doing too much at the time. If you see what I mean.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, I do. It's not a matter of too so it's not because you're doing too much weight per se, it's that because it's, it's. You're moving in balance. Right. So like, let's just say when you do a shoulder press with a barbell, it doesn't hurt because it doesn't hurt because there's not like any direct acute.

[Gina]

Pain, weakness and instability.

[Sal DiStefano]

But what's happening is it's not moving properly. And so then what you end up feeling later is like tightness and chronic pain.

[Doug Egge]

And it's hard to see bilateral because the other arm is doing more compensating.

[Gina]

You'll feel it a lot more when you, when you parse it out and you go through that process of right to left and kind of see the differences with that.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, yeah. So really, you know, what symmetry will do is really help you hone in on the movement patterns that are not beneficial. And the ones that are beneficial. That's what you'll notice as you go through the program. And the first two weeks of it, I think, are so great for what's happening with you. Because the first two weeks is isometrics. Yeah. So you'll be doing a lot of isometrics the first two weeks, which is going to set you up perfectly moving forward. And if you feel great towards the last phase, then you get back into bilateral training.

[Sal DiStefano]

So I'd love to, I'd love to give you symmetry and then also I'd love to put you in the forum because anytime we have people talking about like, like potential movement issues or imbalances, it always helps too. If we could see, like, we're, I think, I think we're on to what's going on and we're troubleshooting pretty well, but would also really help too, is if we saw the movement. So I think putting you over to symmetry, putting you on a surplus, and then if you still find that it's bothering you and you video you doing like a movement, like we can get deeper into what's going on with the movement patterns and even recommend, like, what kind of corrective work I'd have you do.

[Micah]

Okay, cool. Perfect. So just so I'm clear, I can, I could bump up the calories a bit. I could still potentially perfect. About 250, 300 would be a good starting place.

[Doug Egge]

Absolutely, yep. Where are you at right now? What are your calories at? Just out of curiosity.

[Micah]

So 2, 4 on non training days. 2, 6 ish on training days. I've been. Because it's been a bit of a bulk. I'M I, I'm real more. I do track everything, but I'm being more relaxed with it. So. Yeah, my maintenance seems to be around 2, 3, I think 2, 4.

[Doug Egge]

So pretty good. That's great.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's. Those are good numbers.

[Micah]

I think the reverse diet was really effective. It was, yeah, it worked pretty well. So I'm really pleased with being at that. I just don't want it to go backwards, you know, with the arms.

[Sal DiStefano]

So.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, no, no, no, no. Yeah, I go up in calories, follow symmetry and start it right away.

[Sal DiStefano]

And I think a little bit of a, like a, like mental. If I was training you as a client, the mentality I'd want you to go into this program is we're, we're trying to work on this shoulder imbalance. And so I, I'm not gonna push, really push you like hard on the weight. Meaning like I really care to perfect the movement and how your shoulders moving and articulating and like I'm really focused on that. And then when we're hitting legs, I'm getting after you like, so I know you're in a surplus. I know you can afford to be pushed a little bit. And so I'm really going to challenge you to, you know, go get strong in your, in your Bulgarian split squats and these movements that we have in there really push you there. And then when we get to like shoulder press, bench press, movements like that.

[Doug Egge]

Or double steady, perfect.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, slow, steady, perfect form. Trying to mirror each side to look exactly the same. And like I'm going to be coaching you like that. And then hopefully through that we balance out that side a little bit. And you also see some gains overall muscle on the body.

[Doug Egge]

And was it the elbow or the shoulder that hurt first?

[Micah]

Long standing kind of shoulder weakness. But it wasn't bothering me at all. But I, you know, I knew about it. It's, you know, had bothered me in the past. And then the elbow was the first bit that kick. But very quickly the shoulder kind of started to ache and actually all kind of down my neck and sides can be quite stiff. So it was silly. It was stupid.

[Doug Egge]

Well, no symmetry is perfect if you've had a long standing kind of imbalance. That'll really help correct me.

[Micah]

How many days a week is symmetry? Can you just, can you do that? Like two. I've been alternating two and three. Could I do it like that?

[Doug Egge]

I believe. Doug, pull it up for me. If I'm not mistaken, is it a four day program? Okay, we're gonna find out for you.

[Sal DiStefano]

You can.

[Micah]

Because I was also gonna ask what I've been doing in addition to the strength training, like the two or three like full bodies, I've been doing like a kind of Pilates type yoga thing and obviously my physio stretches. So I was gonna ask what on top. But presumably symmetry would kind of COVID all bases then.

[Doug Egge]

All bases. You can continue doing the physio stretches. I think that's great. I don't think you should do Pilates. Yeah, Pilates.

[Sal DiStefano]

Instead of Pilates. I'd love like a deep tissue massage. Yeah, I would love stuff like that.

[Gina]

Pay attention when you're going through the, is like with your pain, how much it actually like absolves a lot of the pain. And then you want to take that type of controlled tension into then the next phase. So when you're going through those, they're talking about perfecting and the mechanics of it slowing down. You can actually like provide some of that. You make the weight kind of heavier by adding more intrinsic tension like you would. And that way too. Now you're, you're, you're sending a signal that you're more secure, that you have more support around your joints and around your shoulder. And that's really what we need to do, is solidify that signal.

[Doug Egge]

Again, symmetry is three days a week, so it should work. Plus two mobility days.

[Gina]

So you get the mobility in there.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. You got everything you need in there?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Perfect. Perfect. Amazing.

[Sal DiStefano]

And for just for all the listeners too. So you guys know, like we, we recently addressed this like with clients that like, oh, you know, it's better for me to only go two days a week and it's a three day a week program. You can just continue to follow it. But the workouts in consecutive order, even if it doesn't land in a perfect seven day week. Right. So maybe it takes you eight days or nine days.

[Doug Egge]

Workout one and two in one week. Then you start the next week with workout three and then one.

[Micah]

Yeah, yeah, that's perfect. Because I work shift so sometimes I have to have like three days where I don't do anything. And then I've been trying, really trying hard to not just have no, obviously not no rest days, but I've been trying to have two rest days in between just to kind of make sure recovery is there.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, that's great. Yeah, that's great. So follow just like that. So if it ends up you having that, it doesn't work in a process. Perfect seven day week, not a problem. Just keep following the program the way it's Laid out. Yep.

[Micah]

Okay, super. Can I ask one last big question? My one bugbear, I think. And the thing that I think I don't like. My nutrition's great, my sleep and stress and all that, so I think I'm ticking all the boxes there. But I'm not very good at drinking enough fluids a day. How important is that?

[Doug Egge]

Extremely.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Especially with, like, chronic pain and stuff.

[Doug Egge]

Oh, my God. That makes a huge difference.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, that'll help. Yes. So definitely do. You know, and the way I always recommend with my clients, I. I mean, if. If carrying a whole gallon is crazy, then try, like, a half or a quarter. But I like. I like my clients to see what it looks like towards a gallon. I like them to just, like, carry it and then look and see, like, man, how. How low am I drinking? So they have a visual target every day. So my recommendation would be something like that. So you can. You can slowly improve it.

[Doug Egge]

Now, Jen, Jen, I'm assuming you eat a pretty much whole food diet It.

[Micah]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Okay.

[Micah]

Yeah, it's pretty good. Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Add a. Add a little tiny bit of, like, some salt to your water or electrolytes when you're drinking that much water. Okay.

[Sal DiStefano]

Right.

[Micah]

Okay. So when we talk about water, what, like, three, four liters a day is ideal.

[Doug Egge]

How much is a gallon, Doug? So three is a good start.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yep.

[Micah]

Okay.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Micah]

Okay.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, really, I would always give a client, like, I'd say, like, the goal is to eventually get to a gallon. I realize you're not there right now, so I'm not asking you tomorrow to get there, but, like, like, just pay attention to that. Right. And see how close you're getting to a gallon every day.

[Doug Egge]

Don't be surprised if you keep chino. Yeah. Just from that, by the way. Right.

[Micah]

Okay.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's super helpful. Yep.

[Doug Egge]

You do huge.

[Micah]

Perfect. All right, thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

[Sal DiStefano]

All right, Jay.

[Micah]

Cheers.

[Sal DiStefano]

Take care.

[Doug Egge]

You know, for people listening, when it comes to dysfunction, here's the chain of events that tends to happen. You have a little bit of an instability or imbalance, to use a different word. Your body moves suboptimally over time. That suboptimal movement results in some pain. That pain, if you ignore it or you kind of keep pushing through it, eventually leads to other pain as the rest of the body starts to move in ways that are suboptimal. So it's actually quite common to have shoulder pain that leaves the tennis elbow or vice versa, or wrist pain that leads to shoulder pain or whatever. So. So so this tends to happen pretty predictably when an issue isn't corrected. And even if you're, Even if you're 2% off optimal, if you work out enough and hard enough over time, it's likely that that'll start to turn into pain.

[Sal DiStefano]

And the reason why moving away from bilateral stuff is if you have weakness, when you have stuff, chronic pain or imbalance, with that, there's weakness and instability. And what happens when you do bilateral or both, both hands, both feet together is the other side compensates. And so it's hard to see or fix because to the average eye or, or lifter, it looks like the bar is moving fine, everything looks fine, everything's okay because the other sides do. That's how great the body is. The body's so good at compensating to keep that bar path moving normal. But what's happening is there is a discrepancy there and we're not going to see it until we start to separate the sides.

[Adam Schaefer]

Our next caller is Micah from Alabama.

[Doug Egge]

Micah, what's happening?

[Sal DiStefano]

How you guys doing?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Pleasure to be back on the show. I was actually on here four years ago when my first son was born, so.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, wow.

[Ryan Seacrest]

In a little bit.

[Gina]

All right.

[Doug Egge]

You got another kid, huh?

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes, sir. I've actually had a second one since then. So I've been following Al's lead at this point.

[Doug Egge]

Good for you. How can we help you?

[Ryan Seacrest]

All right, so I'll go ahead and read off my question. So my. The main gist of my question is can or should you mix the workouts from different phases of a MAPS program based on the setting and time you have to work out for that week? So a little bit of background. I'm 37 years old. I work full time as a, as a PT and as a health coach at the VA here in Birmingham. And I also work part time as a coach at Kidstrong here in Birmingham. My wife is also working full time as a research doctor and she's currently in the process of studying for her board exams for a second board exam. And on top of that we have a two and a four year old. So as you can imagine, life's pretty busy right now. So what ends up happening a lot with me is I have three different settings in which I can work out in. I have my normal box gym. I have my PT gym that I can work out in on my lunch breaks when patients are not there, which basically has cable machines and some light kettlebells and dumbbells, and also when the weather is right. I can work out, out outside with some 25 pound dumbbells I have and also a suspension trainer. And I find myself in this conundrum when I'm trying to run a program that a lot of times the phase I'm in and the workouts I need to do don't match the setting in which I can work out that day.

[Sal DiStefano]

Love this.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So, for instance, whenever I'm running, let's say, a performance, I might, when I'm running phase one, that's basically a lot of heavy lifting, a lot of barbell work that requires me to be at my box gym a lot. Unfortunately, sometimes life happens and that doesn't allow me. And I find myself either working out outside or working out at my PT gym. And a workout from say, phase two of that program tends to work a lot better in that setting than say, phase one where I'm trying to do a lot of heavy lifting. Then on the flip side, I might have a week where I have some time off and I have plenty of time to go to the gym, but I might be in phase two. But since I have that access to the gym, I want to go back to, to phase one and do some more of that heavy lifting at that point. I guess my question is I find myself in this situation a lot, so what are the drawbacks of doing it this way? And am I losing anything by doing this?

[Sal DiStefano]

I love this question.

[Doug Egge]

You're doing fine, bro.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Gina]

You're doing absolutely making it work.

[Doug Egge]

Here's the person that I would caution from doing that is somebody with no experience who doesn't understand strength training or their body. And what they tend to do is combine things in ways to improve, increase the intensity and appropriately or whatever.

[Sal DiStefano]

Or they bounce around because of boredom and excuses, not because you're a pt. Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

You run, you work in gyms, you have a pretty good understanding. You're the perfect person to do this. Absolutely. And your circumstances call for it. Yeah. What are the drawbacks? Well, for someone else, a drawback might be if you bounce around from phase to phase, you're in a different. You're in the wrong mindset. You don't know how, it's hard to track. A phase affects you. Your, your intensity is, is inappropriate or whatever. You're fine. You're totally fine. What you're doing is exactly what I would tell you.

[Sal DiStefano]

Well, you could also make the argument like if, like, let's say you were like trying to be a, you know, power lifter and you're like, and we got A meet coming up, I guess.

[Doug Egge]

Very specific.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, like you have very specific goals or a time frame you're trying to lean out. I mean it's, it's not the most ideal way to work out for the ultimate, fastest, most results in a row. I mean it's we, we write them to follow them laid out. But for overall health, building muscle, I mean you're doing the right, you're doing it how I would do it. I mean and let's, to be honest with you, this is, this is personally, this is how I train.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean I've. We've got the studio here that has certain equipment, I have my at home stuff that has certain amount of equipment. And then I have a gym that I actually go to and they all different stuff that I can do. And so I kind of, when I'm at one place I train a certain way. When I'm at another place, I train a different way. I know it's not ideal for like the, if I was bodybuilding competing, I wouldn't be training that way. If I was like, hey, I gotta get on stage in eight weeks, I gotta make the most change. Like I'm gonna make the sacrifice, I'm gonna find a way to get my, you know what I'm saying? So it's like when I have a time frame, I have very specific goals. Well, yeah, there's a, the programming gets more specific. Yeah, there's, but there's better ways to do it. But man, for just overall being strong, fit, feeling good, looking good, like you're doing the right, you're doing it the right way.

[Doug Egge]

It's perfect.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, it's totally perfect.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Awesome. So what I usually end up doing is instead of looking at it as okay, three weeks of a certain phase, I look at it as if it's. For instance, if we're running performance, it's three workouts per week. So I look at it as nine workouts. So if I, so I end up in a position, okay, I can't, can't go there. I, instead of looking at it as okay, I can't do that during this week, I subtract that from the nine I'm supposed to be doing. Tack it on.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Basically end up doing it to where I still do the same amount of workouts for each phase. It's just mixed up a little bit more.

[Doug Egge]

Here's where somebody would make a mistake, they pick here's, here's where someone might make a mistake. Like I really love training my arms so they end up picking arm Workouts every time they have an opportunity to work out, whether it's at home or you're. You're a pt, you understand balance. I don't think you're doing that.

[Sal DiStefano]

I mean, you're doing it even more methodical cool than I would. I mean, I would just the way it looked like for me is like, oh, when I, When I have access to outdoor, I'm doing these, these kind of outdoor workouts always when I have access. Because that's enough of a different stimulus too, that your body's not going to get, like, so used to it that you're not going to see results from it. So, I mean, that's how. That's a much simpler approach. I would just be like, hey, when I met. When I'm at my big box gym, I do these types of workouts. When I'm at my suspension trainer, I do these types of workouts. And I'd almost always keep it similar and not really trying. But you're doing it. I, I like what you're doing. I mean, that's even more methodical, like you subtracting the workouts and then you move on to another program or phase Progress.

[Gina]

To me, I just look at. As you're stretching the progress out just a little bit, you know, you're, you're maintaining, you're. You're able to still like, add that activity and that muscle expression. And so to get those is. It's better. It's definitely better to do it that way, you know, given your circumstances.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Here's the mistake that someone like you might make. You might compare your circumstances with what, what might be considered ideal circumstances. So, like, what are the drawbacks? Like, what would it be like if I always was in the gym with all the time I needed to work out? Well, guess what? You don't live that way.

[Gina]

You got two kids line up like that.

[Doug Egge]

A job, your wife's, you know, doing her thing with the. Yeah. So, no, you're. You're perfect, bro. This is ideal for your, your life.

[Sal DiStefano]

Selfish question. How do you like kids? Strong.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Oh, I, I love it. It's very. It's such a switch because when I say pt, I mean physical therapist, not a personal trainer. Even though I am certified as a trainer, but physical therapy, I'm working with vets in their 60s, 70s, 80s, the majority of the time. Whereas when you go to Kidstrong, you're. You got kids and it's. The idea is to keep it fun, keep it moving. But I absolutely, I absolutely love it. I'm a little challenged at time because I have a lot of ADHD and lose sight of what I'm supposed to do sometimes. But otherwise I absolutely love.

[Sal DiStefano]

Have you been doing. Have you been doing it long enough? I'm very. I looked into the franchise so actually considering buying one. I think they're real and I'm curious to like, you know, have you been doing it long enough to see like the progress in kids and go like, oh man. Or is. Does it feel like it's almost like just good daycare? Like it's a better choice than just. How would you evaluate it from your PT like brain? So.

[Ryan Seacrest]

So I've only been doing it three to four months, so I haven't been in it long enough to see that. That progression. Some of my co workers have.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay.

[Ryan Seacrest]

The biggest thing I'd say from it is yes, there is a bit of a daycare feel to it. They do camps during the summertime right now, which they're doing a lot of, which basically gets the kids out of the house.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Ryan Seacrest]

But man, it's especially once they get up there in age to that 7 to 11 year old old. Not only are the work workouts good, but just the fact that they're learning like how to overcome, how to push through things. How to. Yeah, I'm not. How not to let that. Let things that are hard stop them from doing it. That's probably the biggest lesson that I'm.

[Doug Egge]

Mental disciplines.

[Gina]

That's good.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay, cool. Yeah. Good feedback. Appreciate that.

[Doug Egge]

Sweet.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes, sir.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Yes, sir. Selfishly, let me put my plug in. First off, you guys have been awesome to listen to you guys. I started listening to you right before my first son was born. And you've tried help me transition my health and wellness from being the single guy kind of related to the question that can do whatever workout whenever he wants to, to actually having to build my fitness around my family and my routine. So you guys have been a major help for that. And also just to let you know, last time I called, I was getting ready for a spartan race and just to let you know, I finished and did pretty well in it. So I appreciate all the feedback.

[Doug Egge]

You got it, man.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're doing great.

[Doug Egge]

Good work, man.

[Micah]

Yep.

[Sal DiStefano]

Great work.

[Ryan Seacrest]

All right, Love you guys.

[Sal DiStefano]

Thank you.

[Ryan Seacrest]

Keep it up.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. I mean, good question. Depends on who's asking me.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, totally.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Someone with his. I mean, he's.

[Gina]

Context matters.

[Sal DiStefano]

He's approaching it even more methodical than I would like. I would, I, I would simp for myself. I simplify that. It's just like when I, when I have access to this, I'm doing what.

[Gina]

Tools are available to me and then kind of create.

[Doug Egge]

The irony of it is, in the beginning, the more you structured your plan is, the more you follow good programming later on, as you learn your body, as you learn how these exercises affect you, the more free you are to move outside of that kind of stuff. And so, and he's the right person to ask that question. If this was a new person, I'd say no. I'd say, I have a better program for you. Follow. You def.

[Gina]

Have to learn how to do that first.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. No. 100%. There's levels to this. Yeah. You could tell by the way he's already going. But I was like, oh, he's, he's just overthinking it, right? At this point. He's, he's doing such a good job. He's like, am I not squeezing enough out of this?

[Gina]

It's like already intuitive for him. So yeah, he can just lean into that totally.

[Adam Schaefer]

Our next caller is Gina from Florida.

[Doug Egge]

Hi, Gina.

[Sal DiStefano]

How you doing, Gina?

[Katrina]

Hi, nice to see you. This is exciting.

[Doug Egge]

How can we help you?

[Katrina]

So I, I give you a little history. Just quick, quick, quick. I've been a runner for like many years, almost going on 40 years, and I've been listening to you about running and been trying to take that advice. And I've been doing a lot of weight training and CrossFit, all that stuff, but I recently got into hot, intense vinyasa yoga, and I just want to know, like, am I wasting my time? Do you think it has any benefits as far as building muscle and burning fat?

[Doug Egge]

All right, let's back up for a second. You do CrossFit?

[Katrina]

I did. I was CrossFit and for many years. And now I've just kind of do my own cross city kind of things in a gym.

[Doug Egge]

Okay. So because for the, for, for, for knee pain and stuff like that, traditional strength training and correctional exercise are gonna be best. CrossFit style workouts probably not a good idea.

[Katrina]

Yes. So right now, ironically, I just got a PRP shot in my torn meniscus yesterday, so I'm recovering from that. But that was just years of running abuse.

[Doug Egge]

So, and, and, and CrossFit style programming will contribute to more damage because of the speed and the, so traditional strength training, especially correction exercise is the way to go though.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

What is the goal?

[Katrina]

I listen to your whole thing about squats. I've been trying to do like 100 squats a day. Every time I You know, I work out.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. You might be over training a little bit, Gina, just for, for that, from that kind of stuff. But let's go back to Vinyasa style yoga.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

What's the goal with it? Is it fat loss? Is it muscle gain? Or is it for mobility? Is it for stress?

[Katrina]

Probably all the above, like aesthetics, mobility. Definitely. Because I'm a runner, it really helps me immensely with mobility and, and just burning fat and building muscle.

[Doug Egge]

It's, it's, it's probably not a great. I mean, it's a. So Vinyasa hot. Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

For burning, for burning body fat. Belly muscle is terrible. Let's just be honest. Yeah. Don't beat around the bush for her. It's terrible for that. It's not, it's not worth your time like that. There's a million other things we could do with that time that would move the needle towards those two goals. Way better than that. Now if your goal is like, man, I like corrective exercise wise, like, my hips feel good and like whatever I. The stretching portion of it, incredible. It's great.

[Gina]

It's still more stable, controlled.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's a, it's a great place. Now if you were my client, I would, I would design a specific mobility routine that's an hour long for you and your, your exact issues. Right. So if I did a full assessment on you and I watched the way you move and I noticed that, oh, you have, you know, ankle mobility stuff going on. I noticed a little bit of internal rotation on your right hip up. I noticed that you don't have good movement in your right shoulder. I would put a series of mobility type, you know, corrective exercise, stretch movements that, and that would be, you know, take you 30 minutes to get through that. I'd want you to do in replace of yoga. But if you're not doing that, then yoga is better than nothing. To help with some of that stuff, if that makes sense.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

That's about the best thing you're getting out of it.

[Doug Egge]

It's not strength training. Strength training is very specific. And what makes strength training. Strength training is the rest, rest periods. It's not that it's hard. So strength training is you do a set, you know, 10 reps, decent intensity, not failure, but good. And then you rest for 2 minutes, 3 minutes, and then you do another set. That's strength training. Going from exercise to exercise to exercise to exercise is not strength training. Yoga is not strength training. Cardio is not strength training. So if you're trying to build muscle and sculpt Your body, you want to do traditional strength training, and you want to combine it with adequate calories and protein. Okay. Now, you included in here your height and weight. Are those still accurate?

[Katrina]

Yes.

[Doug Egge]

Okay. Do you know how many calories you're eating a day?

[Micah]

No.

[Katrina]

I don't know. I. I should be better at that. I do not. Not. Not a lot. Yeah, I know I'm probably not eating enough. I try and increase my protein. I try and stay away from carbs, so I know I don't eat enough.

[Doug Egge]

No, you don't. I don't think you do. And I think you over train well.

[Sal DiStefano]

You definitely do. If you undereat, if you're doing all the things that you mentioned that you do do. CrossFit, this yoga.

[Doug Egge]

And you ran forever till your knees hurt. Yeah. You're an avatar. I've trained so many people like you, and I can make huge differences in your body. If you would listen to us, here's gonna be the challenge. It's gonna be very different from what metamorphosis you're used to, because what you're used to is beating yourself up and under eating, and that's not serving you. Even though you've gotten some results from it stuff.

[Gina]

Your joints are gonna just keep screaming at you from here.

[Katrina]

Yeah. And I feel like for my height, I should be.

[Doug Egge]

Be.

[Katrina]

I should be way less, so I feel like it doesn't move, you know?

[Sal DiStefano]

No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

[Doug Egge]

You should not be.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, I could put £20 on you, and you'll be happier. With the way you look, you'll be 20 pounds, 20 pounds heavier on the scale.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. More shape, more tone, more all that stuff that you're looking for. Losing weight is not what you need to do.

[Sal DiStefano]

No, no.

[Doug Egge]

If that's your accurate body weight and height.

[Sal DiStefano]

Gina, how much. What's our trust level between us right now? All right, how. Well, how long you been listening to us? Yeah, what level?

[Katrina]

I've been listening to you for probably about eight months.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay. So we're getting there.

[Gina]

We're new.

[Katrina]

My mind about running, like, you know, I. You know, I could. I scaled it back. Instead of running out nine miles, now I'll just run, like five or six every day.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay, so we're. We're like. We're like level six in the dating. Dating relationship here.

[Doug Egge]

We're working.

[Sal DiStefano]

We're working our way to full trust reinforcements. We're working our way to full trust here. Well, I definitely want to do a couple things for you right out the gates. I Definitely want to put you in the private, private forum. I would love if you would, if you would let one of my trainers get on the phone with you and do like a full assessment with you and like, really, like, be more specific. Like, we can help, like with little.

[Gina]

Tips right now, individual ideas.

[Sal DiStefano]

Because to Sal's point, you are, you are one of my favorite avatars to help because I could. I'll.

[Doug Egge]

I'll blow your mind.

[Sal DiStefano]

Absolutely. Blow your mind. Especially when you said things like you, you want the aesthetics and the way you're going about the aesthetic with being. Putting it as nicely as possible is all the wrong way. Like, all the wrong way. And I. And so what's good about. Let me tell you what's good about that is that I have so many levers to pull with you that it's going to blow your mind. That's going to change your physique for the better. That is, is awesome because at the.

[Doug Egge]

End of this, this is what it looks like. No pain. Yeah. I look incredible. I have more energy and what the heck, I'm eating twice as much as I was.

[Sal DiStefano]

More. I work out less. I look better than I've ever looked.

[Gina]

The challenge is easier for you. That's going to really sit in here.

[Doug Egge]

Yep.

[Sal DiStefano]

It'd be hard.

[Katrina]

I get back to the hot yoga for a second. It is under infrared.

[Sal DiStefano]

Oh, that's cool.

[Katrina]

Yeah. So, I mean, does that have any benefit?

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, there's mitochondrial health.

[Doug Egge]

There's health benefits to, to hot therapy.

[Sal DiStefano]

It's not bad. It was just the way you framed it of what you're trying to get out of it. I would tell you it's. It's not for that. It's just not.

[Doug Egge]

It's just if you want the benefits.

[Gina]

Health benefits.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

If you want the benefits of infrared, you can sit in an infrared sauna and get the benefits. Benefits. You don't have to do the yoga.

[Katrina]

Okay. And the heat, it's like 101 degrees. It's not. That doesn't make a difference.

[Doug Egge]

No. You. If you went in a sauna, traditional sauna, and sat in one for 20 minutes three days a week, you get all these incredible cardiovascular health benefits. Yeah. It's good for you, the yoga on top of it. Just to put it, I guess to try to be as short as I can, it's going to take away from your body's ability to build muscle from, from the right kind of strength training. So again, if you were my client, we would be strength training two or three days a week. I would be having you focus on walking and not running. I would bump your calories. We start tracking, we'd increase your calories. I wouldn't let you weigh yourself on the scale because that would mess everything up. And then you would just be like, what is happening to my body? Why do I look amazing? Oh, my God. I have so much energy. I'm eating more food. Why is this working? This doesn't make sense. Sense.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

And then 60 days later, you'd be like, I'll do whatever you say.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yep.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, that's. That's what it would be like.

[Gina]

That's how it goes.

[Katrina]

All right.

[Sal DiStefano]

If you let me, Gene, I'm gonna have one of our trainers call you and, like, really do a deep dive with you and get into the nutrition and all the good stuff with you, if you're open to that, because. Okay.

[Doug Egge]

Okay.

[Sal DiStefano]

Because I definitely. I definitely want to help you, and I definitely think it'll be mentally easier.

[Gina]

To do that 100.

[Sal DiStefano]

The hardest part of this will be. Is the mental part, like, the things to do. Exercise. What You've already proven you've got discipline. Just from what you've done for so many years, I already know you're a disciplined person. Like, you're motivated, you're disciplined. Like, I. I. Can you check all the boxes? Which is, this is all a positive thing for me as a coach and a trainer. I'm like, okay, I know that I can point this girl in the right direction, and she's gonna do. She's gonna do the work, and so I just need to point you in the right direction. I think we've been going the wrong direction for your goals for quite some time now, and we can solve that and fix that. So. But it will take this con. Someone in your ear going, like, don't worry. Stay the course. You're doing great. You're doing great because it's going to feel so different, and that's. That's going to be the hard part. And that's always the hard part with a client like you is not the discipline. It's the. The getting out of your own way and the way you've done things for so long. So. But if you trust us.

[Katrina]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

Then we'll. We'll. We'll get. We'll get to the bottom of it, and we'll fix it. And I promise, if you. You give me six months or so.

[Doug Egge]

Oh, my God.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'll blow your mind.

[Doug Egge]

You know, we're gonna do Gina in three months. We're gonna have you back on the podcast. After you do this.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

You're gonna be singing such a awesome tune.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yep. Yep.

[Katrina]

Okay.

[Sal DiStefano]

I'm gonna have one. I'm gonna have one of the coaches reach out to you, and then we'll also schedule a three month check in with you. And then. And then audience can hear. And then. And if we're totally wrong, I'll even let you come on and blast us.

[Gina]

Exactly.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah.

[Sal DiStefano]

So that puts account accountability on us too, to deliver. Right.

[Ryan Seacrest]

All right.

[Sal DiStefano]

All right, Gina, I'm gonna have them. I'm gonna have them reach out to you then.

[Katrina]

Okay, that sounds good. Thank you so much for help.

[Sal DiStefano]

Okay, thank you.

[Katrina]

Okay, bye.

[Sal DiStefano]

Bye.

[Doug Egge]

How many clients did you train like that? The hard part. The hard part is getting her to trust.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. That's why. Why do you think I asked that? Where are we at in the trust. Where we have the trust relationship.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. Because the first. The first two weeks, the first month, maybe even two months, she's gonna be scared.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah.

[Doug Egge]

Of all the changes. I'm not. What are you talking about? I used to work out all the time. You're making me eat all this food. This isn't gonna work. I want to weigh myself. Please let me weigh myself. Whatever. But what's gonna happen?

[Gina]

Reassurance.

[Doug Egge]

Reassurance. This is gonna be such a crazy awakening for her. Yeah. That at the end of this, she's gonna be like, oh, my God, I.

[Gina]

Can'T believe how this is also why all this stuff.

[Sal DiStefano]

Why I want. I. I asked her if it's okay if one of our. Because she's gonna need a coach.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah. All the way through.

[Sal DiStefano]

All the way through. Just to. Just to keep her on point and falling.

[Gina]

Because if literally to deprogram that.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah. Because we could sit here and lay out all the steps, but then what? Every one of the. But she would never get to step two or three or four, because by step one already she'd be like, doubting it or, oh, no, this isn't right. This doesn't feel like. And you just need somebody who's like, don't worry. Yes, we're doing good. Yes. It's the right path to stay the course. And then it starts to unfold after 30, 60, 90 days. And so. Oh, oh, okay.

[Doug Egge]

Mind blowing.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yes. So I hope she does it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Our next caller is Andrew from New Jersey.

[Doug Egge]

Andrew, what's happening?

[Sal DiStefano]

What's up, man?

[Justin Andrews]

How's it going, guys? Thanks for taking my. My question here.

[Doug Egge]

You got it. How can I help you?

[Justin Andrews]

I. Yeah, I started listening about a month ago, and I Gotta say, I started listening to learn more about, you know, strength training and health. But everything I learned about being a better dad, being a better, you know, husband, and even being better in my faith, I think that's what you guys are going for and I think it really doing a good job. So I appreciate it.

[Gina]

Sweet man.

[Justin Andrews]

So quick backstory. I was competitive with Jiu Jitsu in my early 20s. I worked as a coach and a trainer. By the time I was in my 30s, my, my body was just beat up. So I trained less, worked out less, gained weight, had bad anxiety, had overall bad health. My daughter was born a couple years ago. I knew I had to do something better for my life, life. So I lost weight, lost about 30 pounds and started strength training to hopefully help with all the joint pain and whatnot. I've had about eight months now. I've been following a pretty rigid routine and I've had great results. I feel 100 times better. I just do slow reps, full range of motion, slow in the eccentric, and focus on progressive overload and have had great success. The initial question I had, you know, since then, my initial email, I've got some of the MAPS programs, even got on a call with one of your coaches and he suggested, you know, the Maps prime program. So my question kind of still is, I have trouble with my shoulders, my traps, my neck. Not only are they weaker, but they are definitely, you know, they hurt more than other body parts. I work, work. So, you know, within the programs, what do you suggest for focusing on shoulders and traps and, and also like, how do you incorporate MAPS prime into your strength training?

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, good question. Yep. By the way, when you're doing Jiu jitsu, you didn't happen to train at Matt Sarah's gym, did you?

[Justin Andrews]

Matt Sarah, it was like I, I trained other Henzo Gracie. So Matt Sarah was like, he was the 170 pound champ. When I, like first started, he was like, like, he was like kind of my size. So he was, he was like my hero. He's the man. He's a super cool guy once you get to know him.

[Doug Egge]

Awesome. Awesome. All right, so here's what you do with Prime. Okay, so what you're talking about is that, that zone one test in Maps prime, the wall test, that you can just use that as a way to get your set up for your work, get yourself set up for your workouts. You can also do that throughout the day just to get things moving a little better. Now in the Zone 1 test, there are exercises connected to it for people who struggle with that upper, kind of that area that you're talking about, that upper back, shoulder, neck area. Those are the movements that you would do just on your own to kind of strengthen and rehab those areas. Now, do you have Prime Pro by any chance?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it actually came with your summer bundle.

[Doug Egge]

So Prime Pro is much more specific. And in I, I really like for someone like you, from what you're describing, shoulder, scapular, and thoracic type movements, like correctional exercise movements. And those are the things that you could practice anytime, and you could practice them several times a day. Those should help quite a bit. Simultaneously, the exercises that bother those areas. I would go a little lighter while you're focusing on correctional exercise so that you can get things.

[Sal DiStefano]

So would you say shoulder, neck and. And scapular? Is that what you said to him? So to be more specific, this is what it would look like for me. It's like, it's. Because sometimes it can be overwhelming for people. They look at it, there's like, man, you guys got so much in here. And we in. It's not, it's not very prescriptive. We kind of allow you guys to kind of pick and choose. And so to be more prescriptive, I pick one movement for each of those. Right? So go to Prime Prime Pro. What Sal just said. Neck, shoulder, scapular. Pick one movement and pick the one that you like the most or you'll do the most or that you feel the most relief from. Like, if you do it, you're like, oh, wow, when I do that, that, that does make me feel better. Okay, that's your move. And like, once you have those three, the goal is to practice that as much as you can throughout your day. Because it's only going to make you feel better. It's only going to get the shoulders and your neck and everything moving and feeling better by practicing those movements. But at the bare minimum, you always do before you start your workout. So that. Because that becomes the way you.

[Doug Egge]

You.

[Sal DiStefano]

You prime and start your workouts is you do those three movements. Those three movements become a staple. That's kind of the point that Sal is making with the upper. The zone one in prime where you just. I. That's one of my favorite ways to start my workout. So if I know I'm doing any upper body work, shoulders, chest, anything like that, I get over to the wall and I basically just do that test like three or four times and really intensify it. And then that really warms me up in that area. Because really what you're doing in the wall is just giving you feedback back, but you're waking up all those muscles that are responsible for pulling you back into that kind of optimal position with your shoulders and your neck and your scapula. And so I'll use just that zone, that zone one test to kind of get me ready to. Before I go do a bench press. And I have to. If I don't, I'll feel like clicking in my shoulder. And I just. I can tell the bar is not moving the way it should because I'm not primed properly. But like Sal's point, I would pick those three areas, pick one movement from each of them, try and practice it as much as you can throughout the day. But as a commitment to myself, I'm like, bare minimum, I'm doing those before every lifting day. And that'll make. Or before I do any sort of jiu jitsu, I'm gonna do it too. Great, great.

[Justin Andrews]

And for strength training, do you suggest, like, the anabolic program or.

[Sal DiStefano]

I would actually like to see you on symmetry.

[Doug Egge]

Yeah, symmetry would be great.

[Sal DiStefano]

If you don't have it, we can send that to you.

[Ryan Seacrest]

That was.

[Justin Andrews]

That was with the summer bundle.

[Sal DiStefano]

I have them all now. Oh, good, good, good. You're set. Yeah. Go to symmetry. Symmetry will be better. Better for you right now. And then just like we. That's how we would use those mobility moves or prime or Prime Pro with it is just before every workout, you're doing those movements, and you're just trying. You're. And the key is if you watch the videos in Prime Pro and you see Dr. Brink, like, coaching us, it's. It. The queuing is so important. Like, what the mistake. If I ever see anybody do mobility work is they just kind of go through the motions and they don't really try.

[Doug Egge]

And like, you got to make it intentional.

[Sal DiStefano]

You got to make it very intentional. And it, like, if you. If done properly, it's. It'll be difficult, and you'll have sticking points and. And you'll intensify it. Like, you. The way it's queued is really important. Like, the mistake people make is they just kind of go through it and they go to where their body limits them and they think they're doing something. It's like, no, you're. You're trying to gain new access, new range of motion, better connection. That requires, like, the intensify it. And a good example of that is if you've never watched my mobility webinar that I did, which. What's it at Doug. It's at Prime Prime Pro webinar.com PrimePro webinar.com is like a follow along webinar that I do on mobility, like a mobility class that's good to watch if you've never seen it because you can, you can see, you can see me doing it and coaching it and it like makes like, okay, I get what he's doing. Like, that's how I need to approach all these mobility moves.

[Doug Egge]

Awesome.

[Justin Andrews]

Great. Thanks. Appreciate it.

[Sal DiStefano]

Y.

[Doug Egge]

You got it, man.

[Sal DiStefano]

You're set, bro.

[Doug Egge]

Cool. Calling in, brother.

[Sal DiStefano]

Yeah, thanks, Andrew.

[Justin Andrews]

Thanks.

[Doug Egge]

You got it. See the forearms on that guy? You grab, take a hold of, get a hold of you right away. Big gripper. No, it's. I mean, what we said for anybody who has Maps prime and Prime Pro, like that's what you do. Yeah, that, that is what you do. Point of it. Yeah. And that fixes things. But you do simultaneously need to probably reduce the intensity of when you train those body parts with traditional exercises so that you can gain new, you know, different, different access, different recruitment patterns. Otherwise, if you also hammer your body moving the old way, it's very hard to override.

[Gina]

And as frequently as possible, you perform it you just at low intensity. So just because this is a new body language you're trying to learn, in a sense, repattern it, that we have to do this first frequently.

[Doug Egge]

Great. Look. If you like the show, come find us on Instagram. Justin is at Mind Pump. Justin, I'm at mind pump DiStefano Adam and mind Pump Adam.

[Adam Schaefer]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, anabolic maps, performance and material maps, aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.