2664: Why Gaining Body Fat May be the Key to Getting the Results You Want & More (Listener Live Coaching)

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth

Episode 2664 – Why Gaining Body Fat May be the Key to Getting the Results You Want & More (Listener Live Coaching)

Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Date: August 16, 2025

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EPISODE OVERVIEW

This episode dives deep into a counterintuitive truth about fitness: sometimes, gaining body fat may actually be necessary for long-term progress, better health, and optimal performance. The Mind Pump team discusses the health and psychological consequences of chronic leanness, why social and evolutionary perspectives favor moderate levels of body fat, and answers listener questions on reverse dieting, plateau busting, recovery, and how to navigate life and training during challenging personal seasons.

Listener live coaching segments address plateaus during life transitions (like newborn parenthood), reverse dieting, training with gut health issues, and realistic expectations for building muscle at maintenance versus in a surplus. Throughout, the hosts advocate for science-backed, holistic approaches, emphasizing quality of life, psychological wellbeing, and the perils of extreme leanness.

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KEY DISCUSSION POINTS & INSIGHTS

1. Why Body Fat Isn’t the Enemy

• Main Message: Many fitness enthusiasts harm progress by staying too lean for too long or fearing weight gain—even when their results have stalled.
• Optimal Ranges:
  • Men: 12–17% body fat
  • Women: 19–27% body fat
  • These ranges align not only with attractiveness data but also with best health, athletic performance, hormone function, and life satisfaction.
• Sal:
  "If you want to see improvements, you gotta gain body fat. A lot of you are just paused. You're plateaued. In fact, you may be going backwards because you're refusing. You're fighting tooth and nail with gaining body fat." (01:06)
• Pushing below these ranges leads to physical and emotional problems, yet social media amplifies the idea that “shredded” is always better.

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2. Effects of Chronic Leanness: Health, Performance & Life Quality

• Physical Consequences:
  • Hormone disruption (loss of menstruation, low testosterone)
  • Muscle loss and reduced immune function
  • Weakening of bones, especially in women
  • Increased injury risk (study: athletes <7% body fat had 30% more injuries)
• Psychological/Social:
  • Sacrifice of happiness and increased obsessive behaviors ("It's the most selfish sport or thing I've ever done." — Adam, 20:58)
  • Simultaneous social withdrawal and higher rates of depression and anxiety
• Performance:
  • Lower body fat doesn't always equal better performance; strength and resilience are often better in the “moderate” range.
  • "Even bodybuilders on insane amounts of performance-enhancing drugs lose muscle getting this lean." — Sal (15:11)
• Evolutionary lens:
  • Humans evolved to prefer partners within these healthy, moderate ranges for reproductive success and survival.
• Memorable analogy:
  • "Body fat is a security measure. This is like a bank account. And when you get it too low, it would be like you running your bank account too thin." — Sal (15:10)

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3. Social Media, Fame, & the Perception of Ideals

• Distortion Effects:
  • Social media promotes unrealistic body and lifestyle standards; what’s popular online often diverges from what’s healthy or attractive to most people.
• Perception Drift:
  • As people progress, they want more extreme results, moving the goalposts ("Perception drift is a real thing—even with plastic surgery or leanness." — Adam, 11:47)
• Dangers of Fame:
  • Fame often brings more psychological drawbacks than benefits and can hijack self-identity. The hosts converse candidly about their own attitudes toward fame, social media, and public failure. (see 33:20–34:37)

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4. Listener Live Coaching Highlights: Practical Application

A. Case #1: Michael from Canada—Fat Loss Plateau as a New Dad

• Challenge: Plateauing on a fat-loss cut during the stressful period after having a newborn.
• Advice:
  • Success sometimes means just not regressing during hard seasons.
  • "All we're going to try and do is keep you from going backwards… If we push too hard… you often run the risk of overdoing things because of the lack of sleep and the lifestyle factors." — Sal (66:21)
  • Patience is key. Sometimes you’ll plateau, then progress comes in a “whoosh” later (Adam, 65:05).
• Practical Tip:
  • Pair MAPS 15 sessions for time efficiency; don’t be afraid to alternate between maintenance and surplus/bulk depending on life stage.

B. Case #2: Candace from California—Reverse Dieting & Deadlift Grip Strength

• Reverse Dieting Key Points:
  • Add calories in increments (100–200 at a time) based on psychological comfort.
  • "A lot of it is your comfort level… it's going to be based—a lot of it—on your comfort." — Sal (74:08)
  • Experiment with allocating calories to carbs vs. fats; tailor to energy and recovery.
• Deadlift Grip:
  • Switch from always using a mixed grip or high-rep Romanian deadlifts to conventional for strength gains and less grip fatigue.
  • "You're going to see your weight go way up as far as your strength, and then that's going to pack this muscle on." — Adam (78:58)

C. Case #3: Daniel from Georgia—Gut Health, Hormones, & Training Adaptation

• Multiple Issues (TRT, gut dysfunction, high lipids, difficulty with weight):
  • Stop searching for elaborate training tweaks—address the root of gut problems. See a functional medicine practitioner.
  • "If you don't solve that, all the other stuff isn't gonna do anything." — Sal (93:06)
  • Reduce training volume (e.g. switch to MAPS 15; back off hard Jiu Jitsu) to match energy availability and not exacerbate stress.
• On Parasite Cleanses:
  • Over-the-counter “parasite cleanses” rarely suffice—prescription treatments are often needed for persistent infections.

D. Case #4: Kelsey from Washington—How Long Does Muscle Gain Take at Maintenance?

• Background: Highly disciplined, tracked nutrition, regular training, lost significant weight, but progress stalled.
• Advice: Major further muscle gains require more calories, not more training volume.
  • "You're probably at the limit of how much muscle you're going to build on that body with that low calories. If you want to keep sculpting… it's going to be north of 2,000 calories." — Adam (98:21)
  • Less training, more food: “Go up to 2,400 calories, and you'll get some great muscle.”
• Timeline: Expect to see results in 1–2 months after raising calories and adjusting training frequency.

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NOTABLE QUOTES & MEMORABLE MOMENTS

Sal:
"Getting too lean causes hormone issues. This is true for both men and women... In women, it becomes very obvious... her body fat's too low, she can't get pregnant, or she doesn't have a period." (10:45)

Adam:
"It's the most selfish sport or thing I've ever done... In bodybuilding, you're talking about literally food or your workout all day, every day." (20:58)

Sal:
"Your top value, based on your actions, not what you say... everything leads to a top value. That's your God. That is what you worship right there." (56:02)

On Fame (Doug):
"If you have a choice between being rich or famous, I'll take rich." (48:03)

Sal, on seasons of life:
"After you have a baby, it's probably one of the worst times to try to accomplish all kinds of fitness goals and fat loss." (67:54)

Adam, on hitting plateaus:
"Sometimes you'll just be doing everything right... then all of a sudden you didn't change anything, but the next week you see this nice drop. The body responds very similar... like kids, they stay the same height and then all of a sudden, whoop, they hit this growth spurt." (65:05)

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TIMESTAMPS OF KEY SEGMENTS

• 01:06 — Introduction: The case for gaining body fat to break plateaus; optimal body fat ranges for health and performance.
• 04:46–14:45 — Deep dive: Social perceptions vs. evolutionary realities, health impact of being too lean; attractiveness studies.
• 15:10–20:45 — Leanness and muscle loss, immunity, bone health, injury data.
• 20:45–22:50 — Happiness, life quality, and the obsession with leanness; the sacrifices of extreme fitness.
• 30:03–37:10 — The perils of social media fame (Joey Swole, Hulk Hogan controversies), and authenticity vs. performance online.
• 43:42–47:20 — Psychological toll of public failure, fame, and social media on adults and kids.
• 54:07–56:47 — Top values, “idols”, and self-awareness exercise (Aquinas’ four idols: money, power, pleasure, honor/fame); how values unconsciously drive actions.
• 65:05–71:12 — Listener coaching: Michael from Canada on fat loss, plateaus, and fitness with a newborn.
• 72:08–80:46 — Listener coaching: Candace on reverse dieting and grip strength solutions.
• 82:10–93:28 — Listener coaching: Daniel on gut health, hormones, and adjusting training to health realities.
• 94:42–104:26 — Listener coaching: Kelsey on building muscle at maintenance vs. in surplus; advice on calories, training frequency, and timeframes.

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CONCLUSION: EPISODE TAKEAWAYS

• Progress sometimes means accepting—or even deliberately gaining—body fat to fuel muscle growth, hormone health, and mental wellbeing.
• Healthy ranges for body fat are broader than social media admits—being at the “shredded” edges may hurt your results, happiness, and longevity.
• Plateaus are normal; be patient, especially during stressful life stages. Long-term sustainability (defensive strategy) > short-term aggression.
• Reverse dieting should be done at a psychologically sustainable pace, matching personal comfort and readiness.
• Training approaches should adapt to life season, health status (including gut health and underlying conditions), and overall stress load.
• Genuine, authentic engagement with fitness—and life—beats chasing extreme ideals or crowdsourced validation.

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If you’re serious about long-term, sustainable results, tune out online extremes and set up your programming, nutrition, and mindset for the broad, athletic “middle”—and know that at times, you may need to gain to ultimately win.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[C]

Mind Pump. Mind Pump.

[A]

With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer.

[B]

And Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[C]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, callers called in, people called in. We got to coach them and help them with their fitness on air. But this was after the intro. Today's intro is 56 minutes long. In the intro we talk about fat loss, muscle gain, diet, current events. Fun stuff. It's a good time. By the way, if you want to be on an episode like this where you can call in, email us your question liveindpumpmedia.com now this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Joovv. This is red light therapy. That works. We talked about how it helps regrow hair as effective as minoxidil. Or you can combine it with minoxidil for turbocharged results. It also makes your skin a lot healthier and it builds collagen. This is proven by studies. Go check them out. Go to Joovv.com, that's J-O-O-V-V.com mindpump. Use the code mindpump. Get $50 off. This episode is also brought to you by Rock Recovery Center. If you or a friend or a loved one is struggling with addiction, we trust these people. If you go to rockrecoverycenter.com everybody will get some help. One of you will get a free scholarship. Four months, $60,000 scholarship for rehab. And they're very good at what they do. We also have a sale this month. Maps 15 minutes is 50% off. Go check it out. Go to maps15minutes.com. Use the code Muscle50 for the 50% off discount. Here comes the show. All right, this is going to sound crazy, but for some of you, if you want to see improvements, you got to gain body fat. It's true. A lot of you are just paused. You're plateaued. In fact, you may be going backwards because you're refusing. You're fighting tooth and nail with gaining body fat. Yes. Body fat needs to be on your body for health and performance and for muscle gains. We're going to talk about how and who those people are. It might be you. Let's go.

[A]

Does this come from the caller that we just recently had that was at low calories and wanting to lean out a couple more percent and we're talking about where they need to go in order to get even leaner?

[C]

No, no. But that was perfect because I was, I was already thinking along these lines. I did a post earlier on X because I saw this study that supported other studies. Right. So there was this study that came out and it was a poll of everyday average people, and they showed pictures of men and women and they said who looks the most attractive? And what they found was women generally find men in the 12 to 16, 17% generally. Of course, there's people outliers. Right. But generally speaking, that's what they find the most attractive. You know, fit within that body fat percentage. And for women, and for men, it was women in the 19 to 27% body fat percentage range. Now, that corresponds with what we see on the data for athletic performance and health. Yeah. So all things being equal. Okay. So in other words, you're fit, you're working out, you're eating healthy, like, all things being equal. Okay. The ranges that I just said are. And there's a wide range in there. Right. You know, 12 to 17 for men, 19 to 27. It's a bigger range for women than it is for men. All things being equal, that's the range where you will see best health and best athletic performance. And of course there's outliers, but generally speaking, that's where it's at. And when you move outside of that, either above it or below it, then you start to see detrimental effects. And a lot of fitness fanatics are so obsessed with being below that that they're compromising a lot of things. They might even realize they're compromising things like health and performance.

[D]

For most part, they're just trying to maintain a look.

[A]

Yeah.

[D]

With that why they want to get down to that low body fat, because it's doesn't feel good.

[C]

Right.

[D]

It's, it's, it's a pretty, it's pretty rough place to be. Plus, you know, hormonally, that's one of the biggest impacts. You're, you're probably going to see.

[C]

Yeah, totally. Adam, what happened?

[A]

No, I'm just looking at them. I'm looking at the two you guys are like, for like, I'm looking at 12 to 17 and 19 and 27. And I'm just like comparing the two as far as like, I was visually trying to picture like the upper end of that, what the man looks like, the upper end of that, what the woman looks like. I think the, the 27% female is going to look thicker and be carrying more body fat than the guy that is at 17%.

[C]

Yes.

[A]

And so I'm just, it's interesting that men tend to like women at a higher percent body fat based off of this. Well, women need, and when vice versa.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Women prefer the leaner look and women.

[C]

Need more body fat on their bodies. And there's, there's lots of explanations why. One of the main ones being that they have.

[A]

Do you think, do you think these stud, these are skewed at all though by this is these are like people reporting it. Like what? Like, here's a picture. Do you like that? And do you think some people find when either men or women are at these extremely low body fat percentages that it's intimidating to them, therefore they would not choose it? I think that has to play a role.

[C]

Because when you look at the, the poll, should you talk about what people find attractive?

[A]

Yes. Specifically, yes.

[C]

When you look at that poll, there are people outside of that. There are going to be people that like people leaner or like people even higher. Yeah, but I'm, this is most, but.

[A]

I'm talking about generally like, yeah, like, okay, there's, there's no doubt because I've, I, I've never really met any, anybody that's saw, let's say a guy at 9% body fat and went, I don't like that.

[C]

No.

[A]

But I, I, I have a feeling.

[D]

They have associations elsewhere.

[A]

I think there's associations related to that. What, what, what does that mean? Because they're like, oh, the p. Probably is obsessed with his body or he's so fit, I feel kind of insecure about my body. Therefore I don't like someone to be that fit more. Not so much because I don't like that look, but more so because that's intimidating to me. And so then I lean more towards that.

[C]

Here's what they do. They take the same guy. So it's a digital image of a guy at different varying degrees of body fat percentage. And women prefer, generally speaking, men in that range now 13% body by the way, this is all things being equal. So this is a fit and healthy person that if you're 15% but you don't lift weights, that looks very different than 15% and you strength train. Right? So like a fit, these are fit, healthy people within this body fat percentage range. It is not. You know, here's a 9% calorie.

[A]

So that's a really good point you're making right now too, because, you know, I remember what my body looked like as a young teenage boy when I hadn't really started lifting weights. And I carried myself always in this day, even the worst was 12, 13. But it looks a lot different than the 35 year old version at 13. That's right, that's 35 year old. Me with 13 body fat has a lot of muscle.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

You know, so I have a little bit of a layer of body fat. But I also, you can tell that I lifted weights and I work out and that's a very different.

[C]

I'll give you the, I'll give you the evolutionary. Because here's what happens. Social media sells something completely different and fitness fanatics are going to be drawn more to the extremes because they're themselves in those extremes. Right? So if you yourself are extreme, you're going to think or prefer the more extreme as well. But we're talking about the average person. But here's the evolutionary reason for this. If you take the same man, okay, again, same man, both fit, all things being equal, eat healthy, everything else, who's going to be tougher, more resilient to illness and more athletic. The 9% body fat version of that person or the 13%.

[D]

13.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, the guy, 13% is going to be stronger, have more energy, more resilient. Evolutionarily speaking, if a woman sees a man who's fit and healthy in a healthy body fat percentage, that's gonna be more attractive than the shredded look, which in nature that's by the way, hormone. What is it? Performance enhancing drugs have changed this a bit. And when you look at the best of the best in the world, by the way, the best of the best of the world tend to walk around in this range as well. But we have those extreme examples. There's some of these athletes that walk around at 8% body fat and eat garbage. Was that one football player that eats like candy all day long that we talked about? Right. So, so it skewed us a bit. But the reality is this is what is considered attractive and there's evolutionary reasons for it. And then athletic performance Wise if you want to be in the place where you're the most resilient, least lower risk of injury, best performance, most energy, most strength. It's in these ranges. Yeah. And these are the ranges. So again, it's all things being equal. This is a fit and healthy person in this body. Fat percentage, not a decondition person.

[A]

DJ Metcalf, that's who you're thinking of. I, you know, it'd be fun for us to do. I would love to do something like this. It be a fun experiment. Just I'd be curious to see how I gauge if I don't know the percentages. I see the same body, four different, you know, like percentages. What would I end up choosing each of us? Do you think that we would be skewed at all because of our professional.

[C]

I maybe, I don't know.

[D]

In our attraction towards a female body?

[C]

Yeah, I like. Maybe.

[D]

I mean. Yeah, I mean, we all have our preferences.

[C]

I like my wife when she's, you know, working out and fit. I like her body fat percentage in the low 20s. For me, that looks the best. She's got the curves. Yeah. She's feminine, she feels healthy. She doesn't look drawn out. You know, getting too lean can cause that in the face. You can get the. And we'll get into all this.

[D]

Probably associations that. Yeah, because I, I do like softness, you know, and like, I think some bit of a feminine. I'd. I tend to be more attracted to the opposite of like, if I'm too like masculine driven, like, I like the exact opposite of that. So it's like I might like a little more, like even less muscle and more. Yeah, more. More softness.

[C]

That's right. That's right. But again, people who are extreme themselves, you take a bodybuilder guy or girl, they may be more attracted to that extreme as well.

[D]

Total.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Yeah, I can see that.

[C]

And again, the data shows this is the healthiest. And when you move outside of this all, again, all things being equal, you start to sacrifice a few things. Here's one of them. Getting too lean causes hormone issues. This is true for both men and women. In women, it becomes very obvious. You could have a fit and healthy woman doing everything right. Her body fat's too low, she can't get pregnant or she doesn't have a period. Very common with female athletes. This is extremely common with female athletes. College athletes like you, if you've ever worked with or trained. College athlete, if you're a female college athlete now, you and your peers, many of which probably stop menstruating through that whole process.

[D]

Very common.

[C]

And for men, unless you're on testosterone replacement therapy, you start to get below. And of course, there's always a genetic variant variation, right. Or variance. But you start to get below 10, 9%, your testosterone is going to go down. That's just what happens with that. So you start to. Cause your hormones start to move in a direction that is not as healthy versus when you're in those. In those ranges.

[A]

Do you think it's inevitable? Almost everybody who ends up pursuing fitness at one point ends up. Because just like we talked about with plastic surgery, that perception drift is a real thing. Totally even with that. Oh, yeah, right. So you get going and, you know, you start like many people start. They're. They're way out of shape and they're just, I just want to be healthy. And they have a number. Let's say it's a man. I'll be happy around 15 body fat. I think it'll be great. And then you start trucking down from 25 to 20. Totally get about 16, 17. And you quickly realize, like, oh, 15 is now no longer enough.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

I want a little bit lower. Like, do you think that's like, almost inevitable for everybody who goes down this path?

[E]

So.

[D]

Because two, like your friend group kind of changes and like, what you're looking at is examples of like, the next level. There's always somebody that you can kind of point to that might be a little less body fat or like something that's a more idealistic type of physique.

[C]

That you're like, well, I mean, look at it this way. In my, in my peak dysfunction when I was just so. And not to say I'm not still in this space, but definitely not like I was when I was a kid, I wanted, I thought looking like a pro bodybuilder was awesome. Like, I'd want to walk around and look like that. You find me an average woman that looks at that and says, oh, yeah, it looks good. You won't. Most of them be like, no, that does not look good.

[A]

They got to be in the industry looks like today.

[C]

And that's, that's the, that's even what it was in the 90s. That's the, that's the perception drift that that would happen with me where I'd be like, oh, I wish I could walk around looking like. You know, I met a couple of them when I was young. Cause I'd go to these fitness conventions. Oh, my God. You know, Dorian Yates looks Crazy. Or I met Nasser El Sambadi who's now passed away and I remember he's so giant in person. I remember thinking like that would be so awesome to look like that. Like aside from the people that really follow bodybuilding like you get, the average woman's gonna be like, no, I don't like to.

[A]

Well, and not only that, but if you can right now, it's been a while probably since you can imagine. Well, actually you've been there not that long ago again where you were the biggest and most jacked. You were. When you are there, you still don't think you were there.

[C]

Oh yeah, you just chase. You're chasing a moving goal. Constantly.

[A]

Yeah, constantly. It's, it's not until you take like a picture of yourself right now. Then you look at Sal eight years ago on the podcast, you go, oh, I'm a lot different looking than what I, I was before. I mean that's a, it's, it's crazy how insidious it is.

[C]

Totally.

[A]

It's, it's and it's, and, and even more so because it's, it's, it's wrapped in this positive health journey.

[C]

Right.

[A]

So it's really easy.

[C]

A good thing becomes a bad thing. Yeah, it can definitely happen. But, but with the hormone issues, very, very clear and oftentimes and this was more common in men in women than in men. So women are more sensitive, their bodies are more sensitive to what we're talking about versus men. Men have more resilience with, with those, this kind of stress that we're talking about.

[D]

Well, that's also why fasting is a bit dicey.

[C]

That's right. Fasting can affect women negatively more often than it can for men. A woman is body is very sensitive to because if she ends up getting pregnant, she has to support another life and so her body's hormones will shut down real quick. And so I've had many female clients where you know, they were working out the ex athletes like consistent and they had to get, they wanted to get pregnant and it's like, we gotta get body fat on you. Yeah. And we did. They gain body fat and go into surplus and boom, next thing you know they're pregnant.

[A]

So.

[C]

Yeah, causes hormone issues. The next thing is getting too lean causes muscle loss. By the way, this is true for bodybuilders on insane amount of performance enhancing drugs. Yeah, I mean you're talking about bodybuilders who take thousands of times more testosterone and other anabolic steroids and hormones. So they're like way outside of hormone replacement therapy. They lose muscle getting this lean, even though they have these insane hormone signals trying to fight this, the average person, you. You start to go down to a certain point, you're going to lose strength and muscle. It's just your body starts to adapt and tries to slow its metabolism down. Because body fat is a security measure. This is like a bank account. And when you get it too low, it would be like you running your bank account too thin. At some point, what you're doing is you're going to look at your bank account and go, well, we're going to start cutting expenses because my bank account's a little thin. That's what your body does with muscle. It starts paring it down because that's essentially metabolically expensive. And so this will happen to the best of you. You can do this to the best you want. If you're a dude trying to get to 7% body fat and do everything perfect, from 13 to 7% body fat, do everything perfect.

[A]

You're losing some muscle.

[C]

You're losing some muscle.

[A]

Yeah, you're going to.

[C]

And this is going to happen to women as well. Even if you're on crazy amounts of drugs, you also get immune function reductions. By the way, like, you talked to.

[A]

Oh, this used to happen to me. Ever, like, yeah, explain that. Well, I can't.

[C]

It was a clockwork.

[A]

I canceled two shows because of how sick I got. And so I quickly realized that come prep time, when I got to my final six weeks of cut, because I knew that I was pushing the body to those extreme limits of lower, lower calorie, I literally didn't do anything. I just, like, hung around my house because if I would go out in public, I was so susceptible to getting sick, and then I would have to, like, throw away this whole prep. And so that happened to me twice, where I was deep into a prep and ready to go hit stage. And then all of a sudden, I get, like, deathly sick. And, I mean, you're throwing up and you feel terrible. That's not a recipe for getting on stage and winning. And so I would just back out of the show. And then, okay, I'll do another show later and just realize, like. And it dawned on me, like, man, I am just. I'm just. I'm primed to get sick. My immune system so low because I'm not feeding the body. I'm so low calorie and I'm low body fat percentage. And so, yeah, I got to a place where I'd have to just, like, really Confine myself to my house and stay out of public places because I would get sick so easy.

[C]

Wow. You know what's interesting about this? If you look at the data, again, all things being equal and you had to have surgery, you're way better off being overweight than you are being underweight. Underweight in surgery is bad. That's not good. Overweight in surgery. Of course, again, all things being equal, much safer. You have more of that insurance. But yeah, your immune system, they can measure this very consistently. You will see a reduction in your ability to fight off infection as you get leaner, even if you're working out and eating right. So it's got those negative effects. The next one is bone weakness. This is far more common in women than in men. But you'll see women underfeed themselves for years who also work out, who also strength trained or everything. Then they'll get this report from their doctor that says they have osteopenia and they'll say, what? How is this possible? I'm strength training twice a week. It's like you've been eating a thousand calories a day for the last six years. Yeah. That's how this can happen.

[D]

Yeah. You're missing nutrients. That's right. Nutrients and minerals. And, you know, in terms of muscle mass too, that's a lot. That's probably why, you know, men, it doesn't quite show up, you know, as frequently, but, you know. Yeah, if you're low calorie, you're low muscle and you're not giving yourself all those minerals and nutrients, it's. It's on, you know, on the plate.

[C]

Yep. And then you have injury risk, goes up quite a bit. I actually brought up some studies on this extreme leanness. In a 2015 study in the Journal of the International Society of Sports Nutrition found that athletes with really lean body fat percentage, these were athletes walking around at 6% body fat, had a 10 to 15% decrease in maximum strength and anaerobic power. And a 2018 study in Sports medicine noted that athletes in weight class sports with body fat below 7% ready for this? They had a 30% higher incidence of injuries.

[A]

Wow.

[C]

30 is a lot. Yeah. And these were people in weight class sports. So let's say you're a wrestler. You're like, you know what I'm gonna do? I'm gonna make it in the lower weight class and get shredded. I'm gonna get shredded so I can be the most muscular guy. You're better off being in the higher body fat, higher weight class from an Injury risk and performance perspective. And I did this with the wrestlers that I trained. I would often encourage them like, no, no, don't cut so much. Let's get. You actually perform worse in that weight class, even though you think you're going to be the biggest guy at that, you know, in that, that low.

[D]

It's a huge difference, energy wise. And just like being in your body.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

It's totally different.

[C]

And then last is happiness and life quality decreases. It's funny.

[A]

This is the big one, right? Yeah.

[C]

Well, there's a few reasons why. One is you become obsessed, so you take away from your life to try to accomplish this look. Then the other one is just your increased risk of depression, anxiety. It actually goes up in some studies, 15 to 20%.

[A]

Well, I imagine it's probably because of all the sacrifice you're making.

[C]

Right? Yeah. Depletion of nutrients and all that stuff, you know, so it's like you're chasing this thing to become happier when in reality it's making you less happy, which.

[D]

Is, yes, sacrifice a lot too.

[C]

Socially, it's obsessive. You know, if you're walking around, your guy trying to walk around at 7% body fat, you're taking food with you everywhere and you're counting things.

[A]

It's the most selfish sport or thing I've ever done. And, and the reason why it is. And this is the part where I know, I know this always gets people up in arms, calling it, calling them athletes.

[C]

Right?

[A]

Oh, they're not athletes. If the athletic community hates it. Justin is like, I know, but it's the, the thing about it is Switzerland over here, when you think about like even professional true athletes, name a sport. You are not thinking about your sport as much as you are in bodybuilding. I don't care. I hung around a lot of pro athletes.

[C]

It's all day.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

You don't have any practice.

[A]

Yeah, I've, I've, I've hung around a lot of pro athletes that still go out and have drinks and have a good time and cut loose and aren't talking about football. B, you were bodybuilding. You were talking about literally food or your workout all day, every day.

[D]

Even wrestlers or MMA fighters or whoever has to cut. That's a temporary window.

[C]

Right.

[D]

Like bodybuilders. It's the entire process.

[A]

Yeah. And every meal impacts your sport. And so you are thinking about and everything is connected.

[C]

Nobody's as obsessive as bodybuilding.

[A]

It's the most obsessive.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And, and to me, that was the part that I Always said that you. You need an athletic mind or a competitive mindset. And that part of it was very, very competitive and very, very difficult to do for most people, which is why most people can't do it or fail at it, because it's no breaks.

[C]

Well, what's good. So the thing about this is that some people listening to this right now who've been consistent with the, like, they're super consistent with things, and they. They're plateaued. What they might just need to do is, is go into bulk and try and gain and allow themselves. Allow themselves to gain a little body fat. That is exactly what might break you through your plateau. That's exactly why you may be plateaued. Right. Because you're. You're keeping yourself so lean all the time that you're not giving your body what it needs to get strong.

[A]

Well. And so long as you're putting on more muscle than you are fat, you're winning.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

So you put five pounds on and you add one or two pounds of fat, but you got three pounds or four pounds of muscle. That's a great win.

[C]

I will say this, though. Have you guys ever had a client, I had a female client like this where the goal was gain body fat. We don't even care. Muscle's cool. We're going to work out because we want to stay fit. But she walked around so lean. She had fertility issues. And it was literally like, no, no, we need to gain 8% body fat. Like, that's the goal.

[A]

Well, that was Katrina before we had Max. The doctor said to her, you need to be a higher body fat percentage.

[C]

She was fit, healthy.

[A]

Oh, yeah, yeah. She's always carried herself at a lean, low body fit. In fact, hers is abnormally low. Always. Like, Katrina walks around at 16 body fat, but she doesn't look like it to me. She looks like she's like, more in the 20 range, but she walks around 16, 17 body fat. And so when we were. When she got tested and the doctor's like, yeah, no, you have to gain. And I remember, like, that's all. All we cared about was gaining body fat, which.

[C]

What did she do for that? Just ate cheeseburgers and fries, you know?

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Pregnant.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, it was like, it was. Believe it or not, it was very difficult for her. You know, it's not like something that she trying to, you know, put body fat on was. It's funny how our bodies tend to find every. And everybody's is unique to them. This kind of equilibrium or homeostasis.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And north or south of that is difficult. Is equally difficult, whether you're trying to push. Yeah, yeah.

[C]

We.

[A]

We. We naturally fall into an area, and to. To aggressively go one way or the other tends to be pretty challenging. And so, you know, it's. I'd say it was equally as challenging as it was for her to probably get as lean as she's ever been. So it's. It was funny to watch that. Yeah.

[C]

That's interesting. All right. I got a study on comparing the effects of red light therapy to minoxidil for hair regrowth. Okay.

[A]

Minoxidil is the.

[C]

So you put it on your scalp.

[A]

I know, but that's, like, common gain. Yeah. Thank you. That would be the brand for the brand.

[C]

Yeah. So, by the way, the background of minoxidil. Minoxidil was originally researched for lowering blood pressure, but the side effect that they saw was hair regrowth. So of course, we're like, that's a way better market. It kind of lowers blood pressure, but it definitely grows. That's right. That's the other thing. But minoxidil will regrow hair to an extent. It's one of the few things that has proven to work, which, by the way, I tried it before, and I didn't realize that it has this blood pressure effect. And I felt so loopy on it, and then I realized it was the minoxidil. But anyway, they compared red light therapy 2 minoxidil. It's as effective minus any of the side effects. In fact, when you're putting a. Positive effects, positive effects, positive scalp effects, positive muscle recovery effects, mitochondria health, positive mitochondrial health. Whereas minoxidil.

[D]

Does it have staying power? Like, do you see an effect? And then. But if you are, you know, not as consistent, after a while, does it.

[C]

Kind of, like, dwindle. You got to keep using it. Yeah. Now, here's the cool thing. When they combine the two, you had synergistic effects. Oh, wow. Yeah. So if someone's. If a guy's listening right now and. Or even a woman, because some women suffer from androgenic alopecia or just alopecia, using both red light therapy and minoxidil is like a one, two punch, and it's got dramatically better results.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

Together.

[A]

Oh, interesting.

[C]

So it's. Yeah, that would be one of the best. That's one of the things that. That, you know, I would do if I really cared that much. I really don't give a.

[A]

None of us really do.

[C]

Huh.

[A]

Doug knows. Probably cares.

[C]

The Most. Yeah. Doug, you use the red light therapy on your head?

[B]

Yeah, I do.

[C]

Yeah. How often are you doing it?

[B]

About three days a week.

[C]

Oh, good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what the data shows. About three days a week. We'll give you the result that you're looking for.

[A]

Maybe we'll all finally come around when we're about 10 years older and Doug still looks younger than we do. I see.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

I see a lot of influencers going. Is it like turkey? They have this, like, procedure where they. They. Oh, yeah, they plant the hair follicles.

[A]

Is it because how good they are over there or how cheap it is over there?

[D]

I think it's cheap. And they have, like, a whole, whole system where they bring in people internationally and then they set you up at this hotel, and then it's like the doctors there.

[C]

That's what it is. Yeah. Yeah. Just use the joov. Red light. You're gonna get all these other additional benefits. But I have a. I won't say too much. I have a friend who went somewhere to do the hair transplant, and it's. Bro, it is a major deal.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

You know what his. He looked like the day after? Oh, God, dude, he. Like a mushroom. Yeah, bro. I was like, oh, my God. I saw the picture. I was like, no, I will never do.

[D]

That's the other part of doing it.

[C]

Overseas, I think, is because people don't.

[A]

Want to see you.

[C]

Yeah. For a while. No, it's way cheaper.

[D]

Yeah.

[C]

It costs them, like, a third. Okay. To go somewhere else than to do it here, but no way. No way. I have a. I have another buddy of mine who's much older than I am who got the hair transplant surgery back in the day when you could kind of tell. So you could see the, like, the rows of hair. Like, it doesn't look natural, bro.

[D]

He denies it, too printed on there.

[C]

He still denies it to this day. He's like, bro, I could tell you. No, I never did. Okay. Dude, your hair doesn't grow, like, too perfect. Yeah. You got rows of hair growing.

[D]

It looks like a rug.

[C]

Doesn't work that way.

[A]

I saw that. Yeah. Didn't Justin bring up Joey Swole already? Did we talk about on the podcast?

[D]

I didn't bring up my old friend.

[A]

You did or you didn't?

[D]

No, I didn't.

[A]

Oh, you didn't. Did you see all the drama going on with him? I just.

[D]

I. Yeah, I just. I saw recently that he. Something about Hogan he brought up, and then he got like.

[A]

Yeah, so when Hulk Hogan passed away, he shared a video. It was an old video that he had done. I guess Hulk Hogan had sent him like a real Hulk Hogan costume. Like, so he knew him, sent him a real costume. And so he, you know, wore it in the gym and worked out one day.

[D]

A lot smaller costume.

[A]

Yeah. And video. Videoed the whole, the whole thing. And when Hulk Hogan passed away, he posted a video and of him working out, doing that. And I guess right now, a lot of people, I didn't know this until I did a little bit of digging and watched some of the commentary on this. A lot of people that have been, you know, sharing Hulk Hogan positive stories or giving him, you know, credit, rest in peace for whatever. You know, there's a lot in the, in within the comments is a lot of controversy because of some of the stuff that he had said and he had done.

[C]

So when did he, so it said he was racist and when did he.

[A]

Don't you remember that?

[C]

Racist.

[A]

It got. Oh, it was on. So it was confusing with Dog the Bounty Hunter. It was an argument with his wife. I saw it. I remember when I watched his documentary and I remember what happened. This was a huge black eye on him.

[C]

How long ago was it?

[A]

Oh, it was over 15 years ago, I think. Maybe, maybe more. Maybe 20 something years ago. And he's having a fight with his wife. And you know, and I, I, she has, I think she's hanging out with a black guy or friend or something like that. And he's like saying, race has come for. Oh, I don't want you hanging out with those people. Yeah, it's really bad. It's a really, really, it's a really bad thing that he did and said and then got caught, you know, and so just a massive black eye. So because of that and, and because people have probably seen the documentary in the last five years where they covered that. It's, it's top of mind for these people. And so there's this, all this vitriol in the, in the comment section.

[C]

How dare you give them a tribute.

[A]

Yes, he was racist, sexist, all the things. And like just blasting him. And this is the thing I don't like about Joey Swallow, dude. And you know, some people, some people are only familiar with him since he was on his kick with you know, the, you know, calling people out at the gym or whatever.

[C]

Well, he found a new, he found a new shtick. Right. Because before that he was, we were.

[A]

Talking about him in shreds. Yeah.

[D]

If you go back, he was scamming everybody with shreds. And his supplements come on.

[A]

Yes. And so when that went under and that got blasted for all the. The shady stuff that they were doing, he pivoted to this guy and, you.

[C]

Know, nice guy in the gym.

[A]

Yeah. And he's always. He's always catered to his audience like that. So anyways, the audience starts.

[C]

His own audience turned on.

[A]

Oh, they turned on him bad. And then.

[C]

Oh, did he? He did that. He did the cardinal mess up where you. You go and apologize.

[A]

Yes, but no, gets worse. So he goes and he apologizes, but he's doing it, like, defensively as he's doing it. And then he refers to colored people.

[C]

No, he didn't say that. Yes, he said exactly that.

[A]

He said it just like that. And he's. What? He said it. What he said was like, well, if you're going to come after me. And he's. He's apologizing. It's an apology video. You need to come after the colored athletes, too. And I was like, oh, I saw it.

[C]

I was you.

[A]

But you know what? Karma, you dumbass, you know what I'm saying? That's what you get for playing into the. Trying to make everybody happy, still stepping all over your shit. And like, so then he got just blasted again for that. And then he went on this, like, I'm going off of social media. I'm done. And it's just like, dude, this is what. Okay, we talked not that long ago about. Forgot how we got on the social media.

[C]

Audience is not your real fan.

[A]

Well, remember we. We were talking about that. I talked to you guys about that. There was a good documentary, and I forget what it was called on Netflix. And I. You guys hadn't watched it, but I was sharing with you, like, and I was just talking about what it was. Oh, it was Liver King. What happens in these people that build these fake personalities on the Internet is they. What? And you. And it. It's. Again, we talk about, like, insidious things. Like, it just. You don't even realize it. But you. You begin to form this character and do things online that get the likes and the views and the shares. And even if you claim it's your authentic self, if you keep pursuing those likes and views, it's really not. You're constantly shaping.

[D]

You become influenced.

[A]

That's not the influence.

[C]

Absolutely.

[A]

You become influenced on who this person is that you're becoming, all for the outcome of this. And so you look at these examples of Liver King, Joey Swole, and there's tons of them, of these massive characters. Online that everybody think are so great or wonderful. It's like, these aren't even really them. It's like they have. They have created this Persona based off the feedback you guys have all been given, and they become it. And let me tell you, that's a torturous place to live. I don't care how rich they get from it inside, they're absolutely tortured because they are not living their authentic self. And so. And then you see examples of this manifest when you know it doesn't work out. You know, you. And then you try and backpedal like. Like, obviously, the original post, you know, again, wrapped in, oh, I'm doing a tribute to him, really was done to piggyback off the likes and views that are going around. Hulk Hogan, because he just died. So, I mean, because if it was really about Hulk Hogan, why wouldn't you have posted that well before or after or talked about? Like, it's like you did that post just because you wanted to get attention because everybody's talking about his death, and then you get lambasted for that. So then you do another post to try, and you backpedal from that. Fail.

[C]

And then you.

[A]

Yeah, then you can't get your words right and fall. I mean, it's just like, this is the game you play when you're trying to appease everybody and. And be this. This person that you really are, man.

[C]

Yeah. And then this. This, like, celebrities are all people, and they're probably. They probably have more challenges than the average person because of their attention. But, like, you worship a celebrity. Like, you're. You're gonna be let down, man.

[F]

Yeah.

[A]

I do not. I do not have the hilarious bit of empathy for these people that chase that.

[C]

Yeah. Yeah. You.

[A]

You. You. You made your bed.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

You wanted bringing it on. You wanted to be that.

[C]

Well, I mean, I'll say this, like, I grew up with Hulk Hogan. Huge fan. Right. I don't know who he is, though. I don't know. For real? No. I grew up with the character.

[D]

I know the character.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Hulk Hogan isn't his real name.

[C]

Like, I'm gonna.

[D]

Like, that's who I.

[C]

Like.

[E]

I don't.

[D]

Whoever his real name is, I just don't know him.

[C]

I don't know.

[A]

It's like athletes. I mean, we. We. I mean, I. I love sports, man, and I admire a lot of athletes, but I don't get hung up on their politics. I don't get hung up on who they are at home or. Well, here's what they do in their bedroom.

[C]

Here's the litmus test. Here's. I don't know if this will work for everybody or for me, though. Like, would I let this person babysit my kids? No. I don't know you. Okay, awesome you are. How many businesses you built or how, you know, great you are at this thing that I think is cool. I'm not, I'm not going to let you watch my kid.

[A]

Yeah, well, you're, you're unique with that. That's because some people are stupid. I mean, remember Michael Jackson? Like, I mean, how many people let their kids go over to Michael Jackson?

[D]

Sure.

[A]

People like that because he's Michael Jackson. All these parents were all, you don't even know who this. You, you.

[D]

But then you look at that, you see how much of them were paid to say that in that documentary.

[C]

Did you hear about that? No.

[D]

Yes.

[A]

So there's more shenanigans. I've heard the counter conspiracy coming out lately with, with the Michael Jackson thing.

[D]

Well, because all of them before that, like, they didn't press charges in court and then they do this documentary after he's dead. So they were motivated by somebody and wasn't.

[A]

It wasn't. So I, I think I've heard a little bit of the other side of this conspiracy. The one that I think you're kind of alluding to is it didn't have some ties to like what he was doing with Sony. Yeah. And that. And then all of a sudden magically all this stuff.

[C]

Think about it.

[D]

I mean, he, he literally bought the rights to the Beatles to even had like Elvis. He had like a few major, major record like library and catalogs under his control. And you know, he's just smart. He was smart with his money and, and made these big investments and then. Yeah. And then got in conflict with some of the.

[A]

So there's like, so there. And this is not like Sony's first example of that. Like, I know right now, actually I think Drake is going through something that. Because they. Because when he tried to get the rights to do something, they try to sabotage his reputation to hurt him.

[D]

But I'm not saying he's like a great guy or anything again to. He's Michael Jackson. Like, that's his real name all, you know, but like he was awesome. But like his, you know, extracurricular activities, his life. I don't, you know, I don't want to know about it for the most part, but that kind of muddies it up a bit for me. Like, I was pretty convinced he's just a disgusting Pedo, you know, but now I'm like, this is interesting.

[C]

What happened? Didn't Prince do something like that too, where he was like, he said some stuff and then suddenly he died. Wasn't there something about conspiracy around Prince as well?

[A]

Oh, I don't know.

[D]

Could be.

[A]

I mean, I think the one that is all centered around. I think it's more interesting than I see because of all the. The pedo stuff going on is the. All the rockers that were doing the. You, Chester and who. There's like four of them that were all working on this. Chris Cornell. Yeah, working on this.

[C]

Oh, on that documentary.

[A]

Yeah, documentary. And they all magically suicided themselves. Oh, like I thought. And. And I could have sworn that one of them even came out, like in a concert saying, like, I would not kill myself or something like that. Like, shortly before. Yeah, it all. It all happened.

[D]

So that's very suspect.

[A]

And then this is all before Epstein's. Right before we were all talking about Epstein. I feel like now if that was happening with Epstein, there would have been more eyes on that. But I feel like it got all brushed under the rug too. So. Yeah, no, super. Well, but I mean, back to like social media and these people that we. We idolize online, it's just. It's so wild to me how I mean, we talk.

[C]

Even for people who are building. Trying to build a social media business, the people that like your stuff, they're not really. They're not really your friends, they're not really your family. You know, it's great. It's great that they find your stuff valuable. It's awesome. But it's not the same thing as real people and real friends. Kids fall for this all the time because kids want that popularity and so on social media, they'll see how many likes and it's like, that's not real. It's not the same as real people.

[D]

I mean, I'm just tell you what a struggle that is right now because my oldest is like, kind of like paying attention to that and wants to see if, like, he can create a video that's going to get attention and this and that. And it's like I try to check myself because I'm like, if I was a kid, what would I be interested in? Like, every kid's interested in that. And it's like, if you're to. And I'm just hammering him. No, this is stupid. No, like, like, don't even worry about that. Like, you know, do something substantial and like, it's just goes right over the head. But yeah, it's, it's frustrating but also I'm just like, I'm trying to like calm myself down with that a little bit.

[C]

Yeah, because you push too hard, he's gonna go.

[A]

Yeah. I love hearing you share about this because I, I like, I obviously I'm far further away from when this day comes, but it's probably inevitable, especially considering your dad, your dad is all over.

[D]

They're paying attention to what we're doing a lot more now. So.

[A]

Yeah, so I mean it's, it. I obviously I wouldn't get mad and I wouldn't say no, you can't. I think the best thing you can do is let them explore it and then as things unfold is those, those teaching lessons will reveal themselves, you know.

[C]

Well, think about one of the worst, one of the worst things. I mean there's a lot of bad things that can happen to kids. Another bad thing that can happen to a kid is they become famous. Oh yeah. That's actually a terrible curse for a kid. Like if your kid is trying to, to get famous, you pray that they don't because if they do, they have all this false love, all this reinforcing feedback that they're so awesome and kids are so, it's so. Look, we were all teenagers. You try so hard to be someone or something. Well look, trying to figure that out.

[A]

Look, we're just talking about like Joey Swole Liver King. These are grown ass men.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

Look how much it affects them. Imagine they're let alone a teenager. Imagine all them little children brains. I mean way more susceptible. I know some of them do have kind of children brains but you know.

[C]

What I mean.

[A]

It'S very simple, you know, I mean one of the things I, I, I love that it's just another thing about the, the partnership that we all have when we all get together. Like imagine if one of us actually really seeked that like really wanted me that really wanted that the guy.

[E]

Yeah.

[A]

The fact that it's always been this height. No, you go do the thing. Like I don't want it. I mean mean even when we, I mean we thought about this well before we had the, the attention that we had all. Look at all of our social media. It's our brand first and then our names which nobody will tell you to do that. There is nobody that is a influencer.

[D]

I see that a lot.

[A]

They would tell you time marketing it is, they would say you, you brand it to your name, your fame, all your things like that. And we put the brand before all of our names and it was all. And we even put all the energy and effort into growing the mind pump. It's just brand more than our individual.

[C]

It's just crazy to me. Because you are going to mess up in life. That's a fact. Okay. There isn't anybody in the world. There is. That everybody messes up in life one way or another. Hard enough to mess up. It's hard enough to mess up in front of your wife or your husband or your friends or your siblings or your parents. That's already hard enough. Imagine messing up in front of thousands or millions of people. Oh, my God. Like. And you're not equipped to deal with that. That's not. This is why public speaking. If you were to. When you. When they do surveys and they do studies, asking people the things that they're most terrified of doing, public speaking is always in the top. Number one. It's always a top. Now, why is public speaking so scary? Because when you go up on stage to talk, if you mess up, everybody sees it and you are shunned by too many people. Evolutionary. That is death. That's death. So. So why would anybody. It's like, you're guaranteed to mess up in life. Guaranteed 100% you're going to mess up. And you want a lot of eyes on you. On what Terrible. So. And I can understand when people leverage it for business. And I would say my advice to people is to be as honest and real as possible so that when you do mess up, people already know.

[A]

Like, you're also not even factoring in human psychology of how much we love the rise and fall.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

We love that.

[D]

Love that underdog story or comeback.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

And we.

[C]

And so people take people down.

[A]

So even. Even if you. Yes. So even if you like, they. They may be all rooting for you on the way up. And then you arrive and then look at how many people flip and turn on that because they want to see the fall.

[D]

I always knew he's a piece of.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, they're just. And so if. If you don't, you already have this pressure of the inevitable. I'm going to screw up. Because we're humans. We all are. We're all, you know, have failures. We're all full of sin. It's going to happen.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

But then you also now have a ton of people that are looking for it and can't wait for or trying to set you up. And so it's like you're. You're really playing with fire, with seeking that attention and Wanting that. I think that's. It's a danger.

[C]

That's why if you build a business based on that, my advice would be to be as real as possible and put your failures forward before they get revealed on their own. Because then people kind of will be like, okay, well, yeah, I know that person is not perfect because they talk.

[D]

About how admit when you mess up too.

[C]

Because if you put out this facade that you're, like, amazing, which is easy to do with cameras and whatever, and then you build this fame. You accomplish this fame that you're looking for based off that you make one mistake, you are gonna get, and people are gonna pile on you and pile on you, and it's. I can't imagine being on the other end of that, especially as a kid. You imagine as a kid. I know how hard it would be.

[D]

In school, so psychologically damaging.

[C]

Imagine. Imagine peeing your pants as a kid in front of four of your friends. That sucks. Imagine doing it in front of your school. Oh, my God. Like, I need to move now. Imagine doing something like that on social media.

[D]

From the one incident, like, in my life where I was in front of my entire class and I didn't know. I wasn't prepared. I had a whole subject that I was, like, unfamiliar with. And it was like this entire process of being able to bake and create this specific treat. Like, this is. I took it and from my mom's idea, and because I didn't have an idea, I was like, I don't know what to do to present in front of the class. And so I get up there and I just freeze. And I didn't know what to do. And, like, everybody started laughing.

[E]

Oh, how old were you?

[D]

I was in fourth grade. And so it just impacted me from then on out. It took me, like, decades to recover from that, dude.

[A]

And it's just like, that's like one.

[D]

Little thing that was nothing, you know? And like, all the kids, they probably just sloughed it off, you know, like. Like, oh, look at him. He doesn't know anything, or whatever.

[C]

Yeah. You're not the kid that pooped his pants.

[A]

What do you.

[C]

I wasn't the kid.

[A]

Why do you think it is that. That we didn't. That there wasn't a part of us. Like, it is a bit unique that. That three of us this is. And including Douglas. Doug's definitely not someone who seeks for this. That we got together and we none of us seeked that fame and attention like that. Because what I also find ironic about that is I know that you, you guys were popular kids too. So it's not like. So you. And I probably admittedly liked having lots of friends and being known and all those things like that. So then you would think that would translate into somebody who gets a microphone like this and wants more of that, but none of us do. So it's interesting to me. Yeah. That it's unique. That it's unique like that. It wasn't like you. We weren't all like lone wolves in school where we didn't like.

[C]

I mean, I didn't. So mine was a little different. I. I didn't really care so much in school, but I wanted my parents approval. I definitely wanted my dad's approval. I wanted him to think that I was great. Yeah. I didn't get the feel of lots of people's approval till I first became a personal trainer. Because it came to. It was so. It became. It was such a natural thing for me. Yeah. Performing at that level at that young age and then becoming a manager at a young age and a general manager, that's when I. And then it was. I didn't want to let these people down. That's when I felt that. But you asked why all of us don't really care. I think it's. I don't know. I would have to say that someone else, I mean, I would have thought. My thought is someone else is in control. Because if any one of us was like that, this would have gone south a long time ago.

[A]

I mean, I would have thought my personality. Because I admit it, that I liked the attention as a kid. I liked being popular. I liked being liked by. In fact, one of the things I prided myself on as a kid in high school is that I had friends in every group. Like, I was not. I didn't have just hang out with a clique. Like I was friends with everybody. And so I do have a bit of that. I like that and I like being liked. But I don't seek the fame or the attention thing though. So it's. You would think that that would translate into that. And I don't have like a good story like Justin does or something happened to me traumatic where I'm like that.

[C]

I don't want nobody to see me, you know.

[A]

And admittedly, am I not the first one who'd be like, bow out. I mean, if we found a replacement for me on the podcast, I believe I'd probably be the first one about. Maybe Justin and I would arm wrestle for that. But like, I would quickly be like, I'm out. Cool. You guys got somebody who could sit in my chair? I'll go, I'll do the things behind the scenes, which is where I'd prefer to be. So it's interesting that it somehow happened that way where three of us don't care or seek or want that.

[C]

I think someone else take control. That's what I think. I know I do. Because, I mean, could you imagine if one of us sought that out?

[D]

The guy behind the guy. That was always my title.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

I mean, not in that.

[D]

Not in that sense.

[C]

Okay, Justin? Okay, bro. I'm the guy behind.

[A]

I'd rather be the guy behind the guy, not the guy in front of the guy.

[C]

I'll be the guy over here.

[D]

You'll be the guy on the side of the guy.

[A]

That's fair.

[C]

My bad.

[A]

Doug, did you ever want that as a kid or do you.

[C]

Do you ever.

[A]

Would you remember ever, like, seeking popularity or wish, like, did you. Were you like that at all or. No.

[B]

You know, I think there was a period I thought it'd be cool to be famous.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

I did. And I think a lot of kids think that way. Right. Everybody paying attention to you, so on, so forth. But the reality. Reality of it, as you start to examine it, isn't so exciting. Exciting. You know, so if you have a choice between being rich or famous, I'll take rich.

[C]

Oh, God.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

There's no comparison. Yeah. Yeah. How can anybody.

[A]

But no, it's not true. A lot of people.

[C]

Well, I get it.

[A]

A lot of people would seek for fame over money.

[C]

So weird.

[A]

I mean, actually, social media is a great example of that. There's a lot of people that are famous that don't make a lot of money.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

There's a lot of Instagram people that have millions of followers. That was. I remember that being like, one of the biggest epiphanies I had when we started doing this is I couldn't wait to meet these people that had millions of followers. I thought, man, the business mind behind these people are going to be so wild.

[C]

I'm like, not at all.

[A]

Like, they have a lot of attention and they're. They're famous online, but they have a. Their tear. Their business acumen is horrible.

[D]

I wonder the percentage of people that want fame that just didn't get any attention at home, you know, that were sort of home or school or discarded or. Yeah. Like, their parents were always gone or like they had a big family and they were the youngest or whatever it is that didn't. They got over. Seen.

[C]

Well, Bishop Barron said, I think it was Thomas Aquinas that said this, that the things that people make out of that, that people turn into idols. It was money, power, pleasure, or honor, which is fame. Okay? So it's like, I either want power over other people and I'll chase that, or I want money, and I'll chase that. That becomes my. Or I want pleasure and I'll chase that, or I want fame. And those are the four most common ones that people chase.

[D]

It would have been a problem for me if I went really far with athletics because I was so identified with it to a point where, yeah, the honor thing would have been, you know, like, a big deal. Like, if I was in the pros and then I was like, super bowl or, you know, whatever, that would have been, like, huge.

[A]

That also makes sense why fame is probably one of the number ones sought after, too, because what you. As you were listening, I was going, oh, actually, that's interesting. Fame is the only one that almost guarantees all the other ones, too.

[C]

Could.

[A]

I mean, almost. Here's exactly. It's like, very. Most of them, like, if you get.

[C]

You could turn into.

[A]

Well, you get really, really famous.

[C]

You really leverage it.

[A]

Yeah. I mean, normally, if you're really, really famous, you're great at something. A sport, actor, a thing which then equates to money, which then equates to power. Like, so that would kind of like. You could be very. You could be a very powerful person. Not even know who they are.

[C]

Right.

[A]

Somebody. Somebody who runs one of the biggest Fortune 500 companies. You only know the name of that.

[C]

Person or a politician. Right.

[A]

So you can be very powerful. You'd be very honorable. You have a lot of honor and. And. And not have the other ones. And so fame tends to.

[C]

Well, fame and honor. Honor is fame. That's the way.

[A]

Okay. The other ones don't tend to feed into as much as.

[C]

Did I do this with you guys before the Arthur Brooks exercise with those four? Did I do that with you guys? I know what it's called to figure out which one is most likely to rule over you. So what you do is you take away the one that has the least pull on you, and this is what it looks like. So it's power, pleasure, money, or fame. Okay. Honor, fame. Right. If you take that away, that means all you'll ever get is the average amount of that. So if it's money and that's the one that least has pull on you, then when you take it away, you'll only ever make the average amount if it's pleasure, you'll only ever get the average amount of pleasure and so on. Okay. And so you got to work down the list. So think of yourself. Think between them.

[A]

So let's do. I'll do me. Pleasures would be the first I would drop.

[C]

Gone. So you're okay with average pleasure for the rest of your life? Okay. If you had to pick one.

[A]

Okay.

[C]

Is that true?

[A]

Yeah. I would say, like, if we say.

[C]

It again, we go, so it's pleasure, power, money, or.

[A]

Actually, no, fame would be first.

[C]

Fame would be first. So just average. Fame, Average. Okay, so that's first. What's next between pleasure, then pleasure? Money, then pleasure or pleasure? Pleasure. Pleasure. Next. Average. Yep. Okay, so now what are we left with? We're left with money and power. And power.

[A]

Yeah.

[C]

Which one would you take next?

[A]

I would let go of power.

[C]

Let go of power. Yeah. So.

[A]

So money is the most, like, that's.

[C]

The most likely one that's going to.

[A]

For sure. Which I'm open. That's. Yeah. Which is. I've had plenty of insecurities around that. Talked about what. I've had to work through that.

[C]

So cool exercise, though, right? What about you, Justin? Did you go through those at all?

[D]

Yeah, well, just listening to you, I'd probably reduce it down to. I think power would be like. Money would be one that I'd probably end up with also.

[C]

Yeah. So that would be the one for you. What about for you?

[B]

Exactly the same.

[C]

Exact same.

[A]

That's interesting.

[C]

Interesting. You are what? The first one I give up is power. I could care less about having power. Anyone. The next one would be. What were they? There were.

[A]

There were money, money, pleasure, pleasure and fame.

[C]

And fame. Fame would be next. Yeah. And then it's really tough between pleasure and money and money. Really, really tough. Probably.

[A]

I would say you would give up money before pleasure.

[C]

I think so. Yeah, I think so. I think you're money than pleasure.

[A]

It's so interesting that money even lasts that long for you because I feel like you have such a good hold of, like, it does. It means nothing to you.

[C]

Yeah, it doesn't make that big of a difference for me, but power I could care less. Like, get rid of. By the way, the studies show that people who. Who. Who where power is the one that they struggle with are the most likely to be okay with being under tyrannical regimes.

[A]

So people respect the power or something.

[C]

Maybe because they think they can move up in it and they can accomplish it. So they don't mind living in a system where there's power over them because they worship that power.

[A]

Yeah. You respect the power so much and you want it and you understand the ranks or something.

[C]

Interesting.

[A]

Right?

[C]

That's a good exercise.

[D]

Like maintaining my autonomy and. And like that. I guess I associated that in with power.

[C]

Yeah. No power over others.

[D]

Okay, well, it might change.

[A]

So then. Then the neck. I mean you still would end up with money. Like money. So we, the three of us all end up there and you end up in.

[B]

I would follow Sal with money being the.

[C]

The main one. So.

[A]

So I.

[B]

Pleasure. I think pleasure before money.

[C]

So you would. You. So pleasure is the last one for you? No, the.

[B]

No, the second to last would be pleasure.

[C]

Trading places. Yeah.

[A]

Okay, so it's a little bit different, but similar in that way. Wow, that's. So okay then. Then what's the next layer to that exercise now? You know that that's the one you.

[C]

Got to watch the most. Right. Doesn't mean you don't watch the other ones. Right. But that's the one you got to pay attention to the most.

[A]

Is like so an example that. To me using me as an example because I've openly talked about my relationship with money and stuff like that. Like that's why like the exercise of like I remember I. I so remember this like being in a room like if I didn't know you guys really well and I. But I knew of you your successful so that I just. I would have to like actively go in going like, you do not need to talk about how much money you've made or your success. Like I'd have to have that talk with myself because it was so ingrained. The. The insecurity was so deep that it was a natural reaction for that to happen. I would like have to like talk to myself to be like not do it. And it took a long time before that became a habit and behavior. So if you know that that's one of your things and there's obviously times in your life where it probably presents itself. And so it takes that much effort, I think to really work on it is, you know, when you come into those position those times, like, okay, what would I normally do right here. Okay, I'm aware of it. Right. And trying to reverse that.

[C]

So no, for me with the pleasure one is just can be worshiping good feelings which can look like working out all the time, taking supplements or hormones or all the stuff kind of connected. It goes deeper than that. Right. Because it's not just those four, but. But oftentimes your idol is connected to one of those, you know, kind of four. But that. That would be me, by the way. Fitness is probably what prevent what would save me from being a drug addict because I have that tendency. If I wasn't so into fitness, I could easily see how I would be somebody that would go down that path with, you know, with drugs.

[A]

Interesting.

[C]

For sure. Oh, yeah, for sure. Because I wanted to build muscle so bad. I was like, that doesn't help me build muscle.

[A]

I wonder how many. I wonder how many people can do that exercise and admit that that's their thing or that they. Or. Or the awareness hard.

[D]

That's a hard thing to do. Is really like, acknowledge that, confront it.

[C]

Well, the biggest realization is this. Is that your top value based on your actions, not what you say, but what you actually live by. Someone followed you around and looked at your actions, and they all lead. Everything leads to a top value. Every decision you make is based off of value. I turn left because it's better than right, or I choose this shirt because it's better than that shirt. Ultimately, at the top is your top value. That's your God. Yeah. That is what you worship right there. So for people who are like, I don't worship God or, you know, will you worship something? And so you look at your actions and what is it? And is that a good God to worship? No, none of those things are. They're tyrannical.

[A]

That's why I went back to as saying that. How many people do you think would openly admit that, you know.

[C]

Yeah, that's a tough one. Anyway, speaking of some of the stuff I got, I brought up some stats on exercise and sobriety because our friends over at Rock Recovery center, exercise is a very important part of their protocol for helping people get off, you know, addiction. And they have studies on this. You guys want to hear what the studies show that exercise does for people with addiction? Yeah. People who incorporated exercise into addiction treatment programs reported a 95 increase in abstinence rates. 95 increase in abstinence rates from because of the exercise. Wow. Isn't that a crazy.

[A]

That's so high and crazy that it's kind of crazy that more of these recovery centers don't do what they are doing.

[C]

Well, go down this. Look, we just saw a huge study with over 100,000 people. Exercise outperformed therapy and medicine for depression.

[D]

Depression, Anxiety.

[C]

Okay. So exercise is the best treatment for those things. And what's often tied to addiction is depression and anxiety, either from the addiction or as part of the reason why you become addicted to. So there's that it produces a healthier brain which reduces the craving for certain substances. You get your producer own natural opiates when you exercise. And then it's the discipline and structure. It's the discipline and structure of doing something. So I mean they're, they're, I think.

[D]

This is why they're empowering a lot of times. Yeah, it's like this, this despair, you know, and so to empower somebody in a moment of despair, is it?

[C]

Yeah, that's. There was also a 20 to 30% reduction in withdrawal symptoms from people who exercise. So the withdrawal that happens from going off drugs, you'll get a significant reduction if you also exercise.

[A]

Do you think there's a physiological part of excreting the sweat and getting out?

[C]

Yes, yes, dude, totally. So yeah, I mean this is part of what they do is they use, they don't force people, but this is definitely a key part of what they do is they use exercise along with more traditional methods for sobriety. And I mean, I think it's great.

[A]

Aren't the boys coming down here in a couple weeks? They're coming down, I believe so. Hop on. Aren't they? I think I saw that like in a week or two. I think they're coming this way.

[C]

Yeah, it'll be great. Yeah. Butcherbox delivers grass fed finished meat, free range organic chicken, pork that is raised crate free wild caught fish, all of it to your door. Amazing protein, that's healthy. Great fatty acid profile, great prices. Go to butcherbox.com mindpump by the way, if you go on that link, you'll get a hookup. You'll get $20 off your first box, plus free chicken breast, ground beef or salmon included in your box for an entire year for free again. Butcherbox.com mindpump check it out.

[B]

Our first caller is Michael from Canada.

[C]

Michael, what's happening?

[D]

What's up buddy?

[G]

Hey guys, thanks for having me on. This is pretty cool.

[C]

Yeah, you got it man. How can we help you?

[G]

I guess I'll start off like everyone else and just say thanks for everything you guys do. Since finding your podcast, it's been a huge help in my life and I kind of fitness journey. So my question was a bit broad. So I'll give you a bit of background on me I guess and then kind of get into it. So started working out kind of when I was a teenager, on and off.41 now. Went through about a 5 year lull where I really didn't do much training and then at the beginning of 2020 threw out my lower back pretty badly. So went for some physio. My physio told me I needed to strengthen my core in order to prevent future injuries and hopefully if they do happen again, not so bad. So started doing some core work. Then Covid happened, started getting into body weight training and got really into kind of calisthenics for about two years. Fairly consistent working out kind of two, three days a week. Picked up running during that time, which I really fell in love with as well. And then beginning of. Sorry towards the end of 2023, kind of got back into the gym, went back to my own programming because I thought I knew what I was doing, which was your typical kind of bro. Split three days a week, you know, back by chest, tries legs and shoulders. Discovered you guys kind of around spring of 2024. Started listening to the podcast, realized I don't really know as much as I thought I did. So I bought the Anabolic and Performance package, ran Anabolic and I gotta tell you guys, at the age of 40 I had the kind of best, best results I've ever had in my life. So it was, it was awesome. I ran performance after that and really enjoyed it and then just been kind of running a cycle of maps programming for up until now. Currently actually doing symmetry. Just about to finish phase three, really into the bodybuilding type of stuff. So looking forward to the 5x5 and phase four. But back to my question. So I have three kids. My, my youngest son was born in April. At the time I was thinking about doing Maps 15 after he was born. Just given everything you guys kind of talk about and knowing I'm not going to have that much time or energy. Um, but getting six days a weekend just I wasn't going to be able to do even if it was for 15 minutes. So I kind of ran anabolic just the two days a week easy light. Didn't go too crazy. Um, anyways, had some really great results over the past, you know, two years that I've been following you guys and figured I'd try doing a cut this summer. Which was kind of the first time I've ever really done like a real cut. Maybe back in my 20s I would kind of cut out carbs for a couple weeks and I was good to go. So it started tracking my calories and macros and whatnot. I'm a finance guy so I like data like you guys. So I have some data points I can kick off here. So I got up. So prior I would say to really getting into your programming, I was about 168. I got up to about 185 back, let's say beginning of June of this year. Clothes still fit relatively well, but I could tell I was putting on a bit of fat. So that 185 mark was my. All right, time to kind of rein in a little bit. Started really watching what I was eating. Went from 185 to like 182.4. So that's what I'm kind of considering, really. My, my starting point. I estimated my maintenance calories are probably around, I think 2,800 a day. So I didn't want to do anything too extreme given the stress and craziness of having a newborn baby. Uh, so I tried to do a 500 calorie deficit as the cut. Um, so I was aiming to get 2,200 calories a day. I was doing that for about three weeks and it was just really hard, really hard to hit that number. Um, as I was probably averaging more like 24, 2500 a day. Um, try to eat mostly whole foods. Try to be smart about what I'm eating. Um, but you know, eating with your kids and not sleeping and the craziness of life, it was just making it really hard. So after about three weeks, I basically saw no movement on the scale. I was using the Spren app to kind of estimate my body fat percentage, and Spren tagged me about 19.4% at the time, at the beginning, and it was 19.4% again after three weeks. So that was kind of the start of my email to you guys, just saying, like, am I just kind of nuts for trying to do this at this crazy time of my life? But there has been some developments, I would say, since I wrote that email. It's only been three weeks, I know, but I've. I've still been averaging about, let's say, 2450 a day. Been trying to hit about 150 to 170 grams protein a day. So call it 160 on, on average. And as of this past Friday, I actually clocked in at 178.6. So those is about just a four pound kind of loss on the scale. And then my body fat per the app was 17.3%. So it seems to be moving in the right direction. Maybe I wasn't seeing anything. And then I kind of saw this quick thing. I don't know if that's typical to kind of happen.

[A]

That's 100 typical, bro. Like, you literally, first of all, incredible job as far as, like, your decisions around Your programming, even your decision to go down to two days a week on the anabolic when the kid came, even your attempt of like the 500 calorie deficit and then finding out like, that was just a lot or hard to do consistently. And the results you got are exactly that. Like, had you probably been really consistent with the 500 calories or more, you would have probably seen a little bit faster movement. But you didn't. But that's okay because what ended up happening was over the course of six weeks, you saw it happen, and that it's just like how a child grows is the same way that we could. We lose body fat. Sometimes you'll just be. You'll do everything right, and it feels like you're just kind of hovery. And then all of a sudden you didn't change anything. But the next week you see this nice drop. Same thing like kids. Kids kind of stay the same height and then all of a sudden, whoop, they hit this growth spread. The body responds very similar like that, and you're in a really a good, healthy, decent place. As long as you have the patience, as long as you have the patience of like, hey, I just keep heading this way and I'll slowly lean out over time. Probably a better strategy, considering where you're at in your life, than to aggressively cut or really try and force it to happen any faster so that I think you're doing a great job.

[C]

Yeah, Michael, the thing to consider as you, you know, continue working out and, you know, on this fitness journey for the rest of your life, you got to look at the context of life and what tends to happen in different seasons. And in a season of having a new child, everybody's fitness declines, everybody's strength declines, everybody's stamina, endurance decline, everybody. Because you're just not getting good sleep, you got more things to worry about, more things to juggle. That season does end, right? As a child grows up, things get a little easier. So it's like when I'm talking to an athlete and an athlete is in season and they're playing hard and like, Sal, I want to build muscle right now. Wrong time, wrong time. This is not the season to build muscle. What we're going to try to do is prevent what tends to happen in season, which is injury. And so we're going to look at training to try to prevent injury and try to help you recover from the hard games that you're playing. The season of life that you're in now. All we're going to try and do is Keep you from going backwards. Now, if we push too hard and try to push too hard to go forward, you often run the risk of actually overdoing things because of the lack of sleep and the just kind of lifestyle factors. So consider that as well. Right. So right now you're seeing yourself progress, but be very careful. You don't stay too consistent with the deficit and you push too hard because it very can easily, very easily swing in the other direction. In other words, if someone were to say to me, what's the worst time to try to accomplish all kinds of fitness goals and fat loss? One of the times, I would say, is right after you have a baby. It's probably one of the worst times.

[G]

To do it, basically what I figure.

[C]

So keep that in mind.

[A]

I mean, that being said, what ended up happening in the way it played out actually is pretty nice. It's like you kind of naturally felt that it was really tough to do the 500 cal deficit, so you had a little bit more, but you still were in somewhat of a deficit because you still leaned out. So you pro. I mean, you probably did exactly what should have been done for somebody who still wants to lean out, but also is dealing with probably less sleep and a newborn. It's like you, you're, you're playing it really well right now. To Sal's point, I would just caution you to not. Okay, let's keep pushing. Keep. Let's go. I saw a couple percent. Let's go lower, let's go harder. Because then like he's saying, eventually the bottle will be like you. If you're not getting good sleep and you're also low calorie, you're just adding more stress to your life. And then it eventually goes, no, we're not going to see any more results anymore. And so just be, be cautious of that. And then, and then if. And when that time comes, I would reverse diet. You, I just say, hey, you know, you're, I think you're doing great right now. Why don't you hang there? If it's working well for you and you feel fine and you keep kind of leaning out, but then eventually what might happen happen is you hit a heart plateau. And then I say, hey, let's add some calories back. Let's, let's.

[C]

By the way, Michael, as far, I don't know how accurate your body fat percentage app is, but just speaking of body fat percentages, when you look at the data on body fat percentage ranges from fit men that produce the best or that are correlated to the Best health and performance, it's between 13 to 17%. So you're kind of there. You're in that range. You're at the top of it, but you're in that range of, like, if you take a whole group of fit men, the men that tend to be between 13 to 17% tend to be the healthiest. It's also true for athletic performance. About 13 to 17% tends to be. When you see good performance, you go outside of that. Now, depending on the sport, it can be beneficial, but if you start to push beyond 13%, start to go low, low, low, then you start to see detrimental effects often.

[G]

Yeah, I mean, my goal. I mean, it was kind of an arbitrary goal. I just tried. I said 15% was what I wanted to get down to. It was more just seeing what I can do and show off the result, the great results that I've been able to kind of achieve over the past two years. My plan was really just to keep this to the end of August, seeing how low I could kind of go, and then probably go back up to, like, maintenance and maybe do a bulk kind of in the winter.

[A]

I like that, too.

[C]

I like that.

[A]

I like that, too.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I want, you know, I want to give you this option, too. I think what you did was great, though. If you don't have math 15, I'd love to send it to you. And what you can do is the way we wrote it, you could pair the days up. So you.

[G]

Okay, I was actually going to ask you guys that.

[A]

Yeah, so. And it would add up to a similar volume. Would you say is two days of anabolic? Yeah, so what you did is, is. Was a great option for someone who, like, if you didn't have mass 15, but what you can do with maps 15 is every. Every day. Or like day one, day two, you could pair as one day. Day three, day four, you could pair as another day. Yeah, that.

[G]

That'd be great.

[A]

And so we'll send that over to you and that just to, you know, change it up a little bit or just so you have that option. And then the weeks where you absolutely could go for six days in a row, you can. But for the rest of the time, you could pair it up. So we'll send that over to you. So you have that as an option. But I think, all in all, great job.

[C]

Yeah.

[A]

I think what you're doing is on point.

[G]

Thanks. Appreciate that, guys.

[C]

You got it, man. Congratulations, little baby.

[A]

Yeah, thank you.

[G]

I'm looking forward to when I can sleep again.

[A]

Good stuff, man.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah, that's a. That's a. You know, that's just the season of life where it's like I'm playing defense. I'm just playing defense. I don't want to go backwards.

[D]

Maintain and preserve.

[C]

And what's funny is that tends to be the season that people try to push harder. Yeah. And I think, and I see this.

[A]

A lot, probably because of the cortisol. You think?

[D]

I think it's men get real driven too.

[C]

That's it.

[A]

Yeah, that's a good point.

[C]

I felt that too. It happens a lot with men. Like you feel this responsibility of a new child.

[A]

I could do it all.

[C]

So you have this drive for work, fitness and then you just add more stuff.

[A]

That's a good point. I mean, I think what he did was great though.

[C]

Smart.

[A]

Even. Even the fact that he was targeting 500, realized how difficult it was, didn't do that. And then he was rewarded for it. So I think, I mean, audible. Yeah, yeah. And all the program choices, the way he did the two day a week when the kid. I mean, it was all. It was all great. Obviously dude listens and pays attention. Man. So smart.

[B]

Our next caller is Candace from California.

[C]

Hi, Candace.

[H]

Hi, guys.

[A]

How are you?

[H]

So nice to meet you. I'm good. How are you guys?

[C]

We're great. How can we help you?

[H]

I can just read my question if that works.

[C]

Yeah, of course.

[H]

Okay. First off, I just want to say how much I enjoy listening to your podcast. You all have such a great mix of solid information, humor and honesty. It's been both motivating and educational for me on my fitness journey. A little bit about me. I'm a 35 year old mom of two boys and I work full time as a respiratory therapist. Despite a busy schedule, I've been working hard to improve my strength and lose some fat. Your podcast has been a huge help in keeping me on track and making smart training decisions. I have two questions I'd love your input on. Number one being reverse dieting. I have been reverse dieting for a little while now and I feel like I need to start increasing, increasing my calories, but I'm not sure exactly how much, how often or when to make those calorie increases. Are there signs I should be looking forward to guide the timing or size of the increases and then secondly, grip strength for my deadlifts. My lower body. Body seems to be able to handle more weight, but my grip is giving out before I can finish my set. What's the best way to improve my grip strength? So that I can keep progressing in my lift.

[C]

Awesome. Great questions. All right, so reverse dieting. A lot of it is your comfort level. A lot of it's really based on you. It's like, okay, of course you can go too high with the reverse diet. You know, adding a thousand calories to your diet might be excessive, but it's, it's gonna be. So most the time when I would reverse diet someone, we would go like 100 calories at a time. Sometimes 150, 200 if they were really low, sometimes as little as 50 because they're really apprehensive. So it's, it's going to be based. A lot of it is on your comfort.

[A]

I wanted to say though, you could go as high sometimes as 200 to 500.

[C]

Yeah, you could.

[A]

Like, I mean, it depends how low it is, right? And it depends on how. Like, here's the thing. You, if you go from, let's just use some. I have no idea where your numbers are, but let's say you're somebody who only ate 1300 calories. I could and I bumped you to, you know, 500 calories. You're gonna feel that a lot. It doesn't necessarily mean it's bad. It's just that you're gonna definitely put some weight on. But know we're probably going to build some muscle for training correctly and you'll be okay. But the comfort level for the average person to add 500 calories when they only eat 1300 is like, Whoa, this is a lot. This feels a lot. I feel full all the time. I'm holding water and they freak out. So it. To Sal's point, it's like depending on how you are with that and okay with that. Like, if you're embracing it. And then I've had other female clients, mine, that was like, let's do this. I trust the process. I know what you're talking about. Like, like just, I'm not gonna care about the scale. I'm gonna go get strong and I'm just gonna keep adding calories. You could do that. And so it has a lot to do with that. How that is like, how. Where are you at calorie wise right now and have, is this the first time we've ever tried to reverse diet? What's the relationship look like with food?

[H]

So like five years ago I would, I'm 5 10, I would eat like a thousand to 1200 calories. And I just didn't know any better. And I started seeing a clinical nutritionist at the time and so she was like, oh, we need to reverse diet you. So I was pretty scared because I was going from eating like, a thousand to twelve hundred calories to eating eighteen hundred. And I was thinking, I'm gonna get fat, like, I'm gonna gain more weight. And I was trying to lose baby weight for my first son, and I ended up losing 10 pounds in the first month and gaining a lot of muscle. And then I had another boy in 2023, and I've just been struggling since then, but I've been on 1800 calories for, like, the last few years, and I think I need to increase my calories because I'm just, like, at a plateau. I feel like I've gained a lot of muscle, like, over the last few years, but since my last son, I haven't been able to lose much fat.

[C]

Candice, do you feel comfortable adding 200 calories?

[H]

Probably, yeah.

[C]

Let's do that. Yep.

[A]

Good place.

[C]

Yeah. Go to 2000 calories, stay there for a little while, and then when you feel comfortable again, you can go up another 100 or 200. But I think 200 calories would be a good. A good jump for you.

[A]

I also would love, if you're not already in our private form, I'd love for Doug to put you in there. That way, as you go through this process, you have us there. So if, like, you have questions, you, like, you can just hit us up in there and we could kind of guide you through that process. But 200 and go lift some heavy weight and get. Get stronger than what you already are. Like, that's going to be the path for sure.

[C]

Let's talk about your deadlifts. Now. What kind of a grip are you? Are you using double overhand? Are you using alternate hook grip?

[H]

Alternate. I have one forward and one backwards.

[C]

Okay.

[H]

And how much does that make sense?

[D]

Do that from the very beginning or do you switch it, like, once it gets heavy for you?

[H]

I start like that.

[C]

Okay. And how much are you pulling off the ground when you start to get the fatigue and the grip?

[H]

My. I usually do Romanian deadlifts, and I do four sets of 10 of 105 pounds.

[C]

Okay.

[A]

Oh, wow. Do you. Do you ever do conventional deadlifting where you set the bar back down?

[F]

No.

[C]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Oh, man. Well, that. You're gonna.

[D]

Less reps.

[A]

Huge. Yeah. Holding on, that's hard. I mean, that's 100%. 10 reps to hold on to, you know, 150, 200 pounds. That's a lot to be offer me. So you Will see a huge difference. To do a conventional deadlift where you set the bar down. It kind of lets you reset your grip every rep up, and then you'll be able to. Oh, yeah, that'll make.

[C]

Are you looking for hamstring or glute? Work with that. What's the. What's the goal?

[H]

I just want to really develop the lower body. I. Doing lower body is my favorite.

[C]

Okay.

[H]

So over anything else.

[A]

So does that mean.

[H]

Yeah, I work on my quads, glutes, and hammies all the time.

[A]

Does that mean you're not following one of our mass programs yet?

[H]

I don't have any of your programs.

[A]

Oh, wow. Okay.

[C]

How many days a week you're working out?

[H]

What's that?

[C]

How many days a week are you working out in the gym?

[H]

Right now I'm three to four. I'll do two days of lower body and then one, two of upper body.

[C]

Yeah. We're sending you Maps Anabolic.

[D]

That's an easy solver.

[A]

Okay. This is exciting, actually. Okay.

[C]

Because you add the 200 calories with maps Anabolic, you're about to do some serious.

[A]

And you go to conventional deadlifting, and you're going to see your weight go way up as far as your strength, and then that's going to pack this muscle on. So those. Those extra 200 calories, phase one's going to be where it's going.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

[H]

Thank you so much. Just one more question, if I can.

[C]

Yeah.

[H]

When you're adding the 200 calories, how do you know where to add it? Like, should I add it to protein, carbs, or fat? Or a little of each?

[A]

Do you consistently hit your protein already?

[C]

Always.

[A]

Okay. So if you're good there, then you go ahead and divide it up how.

[C]

You like, whatever you want. Yep. Okay. Yeah. How many grams of fat are you eating a day?

[H]

Right now I'm eating about 65 to 70.

[C]

Yeah. You're fine. Yeah. Fatter. It's up to you. Yeah.

[D]

Whatever you tailored to your performance, I would say.

[C]

Exactly. Whatever makes you feel best. Some people like a little more. I asked your fat intake because if it was too low, I was gonna have you bump your fat. Oh, yeah. But if you're feeling. If you feel better with more fat, go for that. If you're feeling better with more carbs, go for that.

[A]

Try. Try playing with both. I love. Like, I have a client like you that we had to bump 200 calories. You know, for one week, I'm gonna do it all through, like, fats, and then the Next week I do it all through carbs, and then I do a mix of half and half. And then I ask you. And then I ask you, like, how does that. How do you like that mixing it up in your diet? How do you feel when we were. And ask yourself those questions because either way, fine. But really what I want to know if I was your coach is like, how you like it.

[C]

That's right.

[A]

In the diet. Consistency, how you feel, all those things. Stick with it. So play with each of them. I'd say give it a week of each. Right. So do a week of like, just adding fat, and then do a week of just adding carbs, and then do a week of a mix and then ask yourself what you like the most and then stick with that.

[H]

All right, perfect. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[A]

I'm excited for you. When you get on Anabolic, we bump those calories, you're going to see a huge difference.

[C]

Blow your mind. Yep, yep.

[H]

I'm excited. Thank you so much.

[C]

Got it. You know, it's. You know what I like about.

[A]

I can't wait to see her results.

[C]

Everyone away. You know what's cool about what she said is she. She. When the first time she reverse diet, when she would chronically eat. What'd she say, 1300 calories a day? Yeah, yeah. Lost 10 pounds the first month. Yeah, that happens sometimes.

[A]

Yeah. That's why I wanted to make. I know you made the point of like 20 because. Which is the right. Is the right. Because obviously some people are freaked out, but it's like, man, some people can add 500 and just. It's what they needed and their body responds right away if they can get past the psychological piece. So obviously she had been through that situation, so it was a great conversation for the audience to hear, let me tell you. And I've had some of my. I'm glad this happened because I've actually had some of my family and friends before. People know that deadlifting is so good for the hamstrings and the butt. And so they do it. But a lot of times they do Romanian all the time, which is a great movement.

[C]

Yeah. Nothing wrong with it.

[D]

But you're limited on how accessory compared especially with conventional.

[C]

Yeah, but it's also the rat. You're doing 10.

[D]

Well, yeah, 10, 12 reps. Yeah.

[A]

I don't care.

[D]

Taking on your grip.

[A]

Yeah. You ain't holding on to very much weight. I mean, I'm not holding. Hold on to very much weight.

[D]

Setting it down makes a big.

[C]

When I was Doing that many reps for that kind of an exercise. It was good morning.

[A]

And she what? She said she was at 100. She's at 100 what, 5 pounds? So if you can do 10 reps holding on to the bar for 105 reps, she's gonna push over 200 in a conventional deadlift. And her pushing over 200 in a conventional deadlift is gonna pack on muscle like she's never seen before. So exciting.

[B]

Our next caller is Daniel from Georgia.

[C]

What's up, Daniel?

[A]

What's going on, Daniel?

[E]

Hey, guys, I appreciate y' all taking your time. Y' all have been very instrumental in my sobriety and mental health journey over the last 10 years. So it's cool to kind of be able to talk to you, but I'll get into kind of my question. I've been a firefighter, paramedic and a flight medic for 23 years and been in the army for 20 years. Performance wise, I'm 42. Performance wise, I still do pretty well. Like on our ACFT test, stuff like that. About the last two years, I've been struggling with the typical hormone balance, blood work, balance diet. For some odd reason, I put on about 40 pounds with no major changes. I don't do dairy, no sugar. I don't drink, obviously, like all the normal stuff. So I had some recent blood work done. My triglycerides were high, borderline A1C, HDL was low, and a couple other that were off. So it's kind of a two part question, but what would you prioritize nutritionally and in training to improve metabolic health without furthering my gut issues and tanking energy so I can perform at the level that I'm expected.

[C]

Okay, Daniel, let's just, let's break this all down. So you have some, you, you wrote in some stuff in your question. If you don't mind me go through, going through some, some of your email. Okay, so you said you're recovering addiction. I see where your current body weight is. You're following some of our programs. So maps anabolic, mass 15 performance. Which one of our programs are you following now?

[E]

I just restarted Maps Anabolic last week.

[C]

And you're doing Jiu Jitsu two to three days a week?

[E]

Yes, sir.

[C]

Okay, and then you're currently on TRT, testosterone.

[E]

Yes, sir. I take about 100 a week.

[C]

Okay. The rest of your blood, the rest of your hormones. How's your thyroid? Is your thyroid okay?

[E]

Yeah, all the blood work was normal other than my lipid panel.

[C]

Okay. And then you, you had you had mentioned gut health issues? Tell me a little bit about that.

[E]

Yeah, I. I caught giardia in Yemen back in 2010. I was deployed and I've just. I've dealt with severe gut issues for 15 years now. So I can't eat any bread, dairy, anything with like vinegar stuff. My body just doesn't digest it real well.

[C]

Have you been tested currently for parasites and sibo?

[E]

Yes, sir. It was all negative. I've done a few parasite cleanse in the past, but my only diagnosis was just diverticulitis with IBS and a couple other things.

[C]

Okay. And then current diet. Walk me through that right now. Are you. Do you track it? Do you have. Can you give me some details?

[E]

I do. I eat anywhere from 22 to 2800 calories a day, mainly chicken and ground turkey. Those are two, like the proteins that. That don't mess with me. I try to stay away from pork and red meat, obviously, just because all the issues, on average, about 50 carbs a day. And I don't. I stay away from sugar and I try to balance. I've been having issues trying to balance the proteins and fats, but it's hard with my gut issues to get to where I don't just feel like I'm dying. Over 2,200 a day.

[C]

Okay. And then with the gut issues, have you worked with a functional medicine practitioner or are these your medical doctors?

[E]

This is all through the va like Western medicine. I'm trying to kind of branch out more just because it's just the same dog and pony show with the GI world.

[C]

Yeah. I would like you to work with a. What I would recommend is you work with a functional medicine practitioner to get the root of what's going on. It sounds very frustrating. And on paper, it looks like you're doing a lot of the right things. It sounds like there's an underlying root cause that hasn't been identified yet. And I like functional medicine practitioners for that very reason. We can invite you into our Functional medicine Wellness Forum. And I believe. What's the name of that?

[D]

MP Holistic Health.

[C]

MP Holistic Health on Facebook. So I would have you get on there. And I also think you should reduce your training volume.

[A]

Okay, I'm glad you said that. I was like, that's the other thing with all this gut issues. And then if you're doing jiu jitsu three times a week and all of anabolic. I mean, I would reduce anabolic down to one day a week or max. 15 is probably more appropriate.

[C]

Yeah. For. For someone like you, I like maps 15. And then you can keep up your jiu jitsu. Otherwise, I would cut out the jiu jitsu and just stick to Maps Anabolic for a little while until we start to figure out what the root cause is. Some of the things you mentioned in your email was like swelling. You said swelling in the face, for example. That can be indicative of parasite. Sometimes they're hard to find. They can hide. Functional medicine practitioners have really good tests that can help identify that. It could also be autoimmune, which we'd also wanna take a look at with that. And then your diet sounds. Sounds fine. But the gut health stuff is either at the root or is one of the main symptoms of something else that we haven't identified yet. So that's where I would start, is functional medicine. And what I want you to do is post that question in that forum and see what answer you get. And then if youif. You end up working with Dr. Cabral's team, I know they're very comprehensive with, you know, trying to. Trying to work with mysterious symptoms.

[E]

Okay, yeah, I did that. I did the genetic testing part of just trying to chase this kind of rabbit. But like I said, it's hard. But still being on active duty, you know, and trying to keep up physical, obviously, and I'm getting older, so it's.

[C]

So you.

[E]

You would just drop down to one.

[A]

Day a week or the Master 15 or Maps 15. Master 15 is probably more appropriate. I like Massive Dean even better. Or you're just doing two exercises a day, so you're still getting your strength training. I'd also ask you to do your best on how you feel to try and modify your intensity. So if, you know, it's like one of those days where your gut is just off and you're not feeling it, that's also the. The worst day to go in and kill it in the gym. Like, that's where I'm like, all right, back off a little.

[C]

How do you feel when you fast?

[E]

I better. I started doing intermittent fasting last week. Like I said, I've just been kind of throwing stuff at the wall to see what sticks, you know. But I started eating around 10 in the morning and then 6, cut off at 6 at night and felt a little different. I don't do caffeine or anything like any stimulants. And obviously, you know, and I've got a newborn at home, so I feel pretty dead most days anyway. But how. How would y'.

[A]

All.

[E]

And kind of the second part, how would you Balance the, the macros with, you know, energy and weight and, you know, lipid panels and things of that nature.

[C]

Yeah. Because you got issues. We got to out figure, figure that out because on paper, your diet sounds.

[A]

Okay with him being kind of lower carb, carbohydrate like he is. Would he be like, you know, something like the ketone iq, like supplements like that, would that benefit him energy, energy wise?

[C]

Because he may, but also may hurt his gut. Yeah. We got to figure out what's causing the gut issues right now. And you're going low carb because low carb probably feels better to your gut, right? It does.

[E]

And I, I can't, like, I can't have any gluten. I know. I always hear you talking about your issues with dairy. If I eat any dairy or glue, I break out in weird.

[C]

Right.

[E]

Like it's, it's wild. And I was told through the VA that it. When I caught giardia overseas that I may have brought back some other type parasite and it just kind of wreaked havoc. So, I mean, I, I feel like I almost starved myself. But if you look at me, I mean, I've got. Got the typical dad bod gut. For some reason, I carry most of my weight up around my chest. My gut.

[C]

Yeah.

[E]

You know, so it's just super frustrating.

[C]

You said you did a parasite cleanse. What did you do?

[E]

I've done all the. You name it, we've done it. Everything from the clays, the charcoal. No, there's. There was one cleanse I did last year. I forget the name of it. I took, you know, 10 different pills for a few weeks. And even now, after, like the genetic testing, I've got the mthf, the.

[C]

Okay, so here's the deal. Over the counter, often these parasite cleanses don't really kill the parasites. Parasites. To kill a parasite, you need, there's certain drugs that you take that would kill a parasite. So clays, charcoal, those are gonna help with the symptoms. But parasites are. They're hardy and they'll stick around. I'm not a doctor, so I can't recommend medications to you, especially not on camera. But what I'm gonna have Doug do is he's gonna email you a website and then it's on you. You can decide if you want to try one of the options. But this is what you did, right? Yeah. So I'm not gonna say it all here on the air. I'm not a doctor, so I can't recommend people do something like this. But to kill a parasite you need an anti parasitic medication. It's not going to happen with. It's not like Sibo where I can do antimicrobial herbs. Parasite will stick around. It's not gonna. It's not gonna go to the functional.

[D]

Medicine practitioner will really help you target that.

[C]

That's right.

[D]

Most effectively.

[A]

I remember when you did this though. You felt so amazing.

[C]

Are you kidding me? I fixed my gut health. Yeah, it's fine.

[A]

Makes a big difference.

[C]

So I'm gonna. I'll. Doug will email you the website and it's. You just look on it, it's on you. So we're not recommending it. You could do it if you want to or not. And the other thing is go on that forum and see about talking with some of those functional medicine practice. But it, look, it sounds. There's definitely a root, there's definitely something going on and it has to do with your gut for sure. And if you don't solve that, all the other stuff isn't gonna do anything. Yeah, yeah.

[E]

All right, awesome. Well, I appreciate it. Thank you so much, guys.

[A]

No matter what you do, daddy, keep us posted. I'd like to hear how it goes. Okay.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. Send us an email back. All right.

[A]

Take it easy, bro.

[C]

Thank you. Yeah, you got it.

[A]

That's frustrating, huh? Yeah.

[C]

Oh, it sounds parasite. Yeah, it sounds very much. Getting up, getting rashes and so all.

[A]

The things he was. So all the things he was listing off, those were. I know for sure. Charcoal is just like symptoms that's not gonna kill, that's just gonna absorb. That's not gonna.

[C]

Yeah, nothing you can do. Pumpkin seeds will help paralyze them. But then they come back like there's. There is natural anti parasitic substances.

[D]

I mean, well, even if you give them. I remember you telling me too, they leave their eggs. So it's like it comes back.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. You kill a bunch of parasites, you have to do a treatment again like 30 days because then the eggs hatch and you got to get them all out. But parasites evolved. They're tough. In fact, sometimes you'll do tests, like stool sample tests. And it's like they hide and you don't even see, but you still got a parasite. And so. No, that was me. And once I treated it with the medication, that was it. My gut health now is fine, which is crazy.

[B]

Our next caller is Kelsey from Washington.

[C]

Hi, Kelsey, good morning.

[F]

Hi, how are you doing? Thanks for having me on. Still surreal. I love you guys. So you've helped me a lot. I'll ask my question and I'll give probably too much background. Sorry, my husband says I'm long winded. So the help and advice or the question I'd like to ask is how long you would recommend that it takes to reach muscle growth goals. So I know that body comp and muscle growth takes time. How long is a realistic time frame to compare to when you might be close to your genetic limit or what your body is able to reach? And any other tips or advice after I give my background so I'm 37 years old. I work full time, I've got two kids 5 and 7 and I've lost about 70 pounds naturally over the last four years. So the first two years I was doing Weight Watchers and I was eating 1200 calories and cycling six to seven times a week. So through listening to your show I realized that I was accidentally a cardio bunny, which was helpful. I started listening to you guys about halfway through an online coach that I had hired for strength training, which was a great starter program. But after listening to you I realized that what I was really doing was a HIIT program with dumbbells and not through strength training and not progressive overload. So I kind of hit my cap and started trying to figure out what to do. I looked at purchasing Anabolic or Muscle Mommy, but I really wanted the one on one coaching. That's something I'd had kind of from Weight Watchers from day one and just needing that accountability. So I found a new online coach through Instagram that focuses on progressive overload strength training more of like a bodybuilding style and hired her last September. So for 11 months I've been lifting four times a week, 60 to 75 minute sessions, two uppers, two lowers. Most weeks I do a fistful body workout on Saturdays because I just like to move. And then I do three 20 minute cardio sessions a week. I grew my calories with her up to 2,000 a day through December last year. And then I went into a cut or calorie deficit from January to April down to about 1550 calories. And in the middle of the cut in February, did a DEXA scan. I was around 22% body fat, which I lost about 7 to 8 pounds after that scan. And I've heard Sal mention kind of the 20% you don't like to dip too far below screwing with hormones and other things. So I felt like, like it's kind of in a good range. Ended the cut in April and then the last four months I've been working my calories back up to a maintenance of 1925 right now. And I'm extremely consistent, disciplined. I've never missed a check in. I think I've missed two workouts in the last year since I started. I eat 145 grams of protein every day. 80 to 90% whole foods rely electrolytes, vitamin D, creatine, because I love how much you guys talk about that. I sleep great. I hit my water goals. I average about 12,000 steps a day except for Sundays with church and rest. And through listening to you and people I follow, I feel 90% confident I'm doing the right things and I just need to be more patient. But I am really happy with the progress I've made. It's been life changing. But I am competitive. I want to push my limits. So I'm just curious to hear from you all. I've listened to countless thousands of episodes over the last year and a half and you've given me a lot of really good tips and tricks and changes along my journey. But just curious what advice you would have or how patient I should be.

[A]

I'll tell you what limit you're reaching right now. So first of all, you've done an incredible job and where you're at right now, everything you've done and what you came from and where you're going. But at one point you're only going to build so much muscle on 2,000 calories. You gotta keep going. Like if you want more, it's up, it's up in calories. You're, you're, you have, I mean, I'm looking at your pictures right now. You look incredible. And for someone who's taking 12,000 steps a day, training five to six days a week, you're probably at the limit of how much muscle you're going to build on that body with that low calories. So if you want to keep sculpting, keep building, it's going to be north of 2,000 calories. And my recommendation would be actually less training volume, like more of an MAPS anabolic program and bump the calories. And I think you're gonna see that.

[C]

You're gonna blow your mind.

[A]

Yeah, you'll go up.

[C]

How tall are you and what's your body weight?

[F]

5, 8 and away? 141. 142.

[C]

5, 8, 141. Working out as much as you do 2, 000 calories is like, it's low.

[A]

Yeah. At 12,000 steps a day, so low.

[C]

And I know it's scary, it's scary to try to go up more but if you want. You want to keep. You want to see some progress? Bump your calories.

[A]

Yep.

[C]

You want to see more progress, Bump your calories and do less workouts. Yep. Those are your two options. You could just bump your calories and you'll see some progress. If you just went up to from 2,000 to 2,400 calories, you'd see some good strength gains. Doing nothing else. If you really want to see the gains, I would go three days a week. Full body strength training maps, anabolic style. Go up to 2,400 calories, and you'll get some great muscle. Yes, you'll get some great muscle.

[F]

How long do you guys recommend for that? Like, ramp up to 2400. Because I think mentally I know that it works and, like, hear you talk about it, but, like, physically, it's still kind of hard too. I mean, back in September last year, when I started eating 1800 calories, I'm like, this is so much food. I feel disgusting. And I, I. It was. It was hard for me. But Adam shared a little bit about your journey of when you were doing, like, bars and protein shakes versus going to whole protein. And I made that switch in, like, February this year, and that made a big differ.

[A]

Oh, good.

[F]

So I've gotten off of a lot of, like, pro processed protein I didn't even realize I was doing, and that's helped. So I think I'm willing to, like, bump it. I've been thinking I need to, like, bump it further, but, like, do you. Do you recommend, like, 100 or 200 calories, like, in a month or, like, what kind of.

[C]

I'll give you. I'll give you the ideal, but then it's going to be based on your comfort level. Ideally, you'd go up 400 calories. Right now, there is no ramp up. 400 is just because of where you're at, how lean you are, your fitness level, how much you're strength training. You go up 400 calories, your muscles are gonna soak it up. But if you're scared, you can go up 100 calories every other week, and you can really stretch it out. Depends on how fast you want to see the progress and how fearful it's gonna be for you. So that's gonna be on you. Now, if I was your coach and I was working with you every week, and I could be there for you when you get scared, I would encourage you to go 400, but I'm not gonna be there for you. And if you know yourself you're like, man, if I go up 400 calories, I am going to freak out. Then you can go up 100 calories and then wait a week, and then go up another hundred, wait a week and get yourself up there.

[A]

I want you to know the other side of this is way less training, way even happier with your physique. Like, when you get to this place where I think 26 to 2800 calories is where I'd want to get you, eventually you'll do. You'll have to do half the work. You'll get so strong and you'll have. Yeah, you'll be stronger. You'll have more of the. Even more of. And by the way, for the listeners that get an opportunity to see you, like, you're in a great place right now. Like, if you just said, adam, I want to be healthy, I'm like, well, do you like what you're doing? Do you like the cow? Like, you could just keep doing what you're doing, and you're going to maintain a very healthy, great physique. But if you come to me, you're like, I want more. I'm competitive. I want to keep pushing this. Like, oh, there's more. There's a lot more. But it's in cal. You can't get it there in 2000 calories. Like, you just have to. You're gonna have to get up. All my female competitors. I don't think I had any female competitors that we weren't pushing over 2,800-3000 calories. Competitors that get on stage ripped and lean, I have to get them up to 2800, 3000 calories. And then in a cut, they're down to 22, 20, 400.

[C]

That's pre contest.

[A]

That's cutting to get down on stage is where your bulk is right now. So that's how much. In order for you to get even more muscular, even more built, you're going to have to bump calories.

[C]

I wouldn't be surprised if your body fat percentage went down with a 400 calorie bump because of the muscle gain.

[F]

Okay.

[C]

Yeah.

[F]

So say I start eating 2400 calories tomorrow.

[C]

Yep.

[F]

Like, what would you say to, like, have an end point of judging, like, success? Would you say, like, give it a year? Give it.

[A]

No, no, no. Give it a couple months. Yeah, give it. Give it two months.

[C]

Yeah, give it. Yeah, two months. Three months.

[A]

Yeah, two months of a 400 calorie. Follow the program apps. If you stick to the program, I think by, like, the second phase, you're going to be very happy.

[C]

Yeah. Do you have maps at a ball?

[F]

I don't. I never pulled the trigger on it because I was too scared about doing something, like, without a coach handholding me.

[C]

We'll send it to you. So if you want to follow it, do the three day a week version. And you're going to get strong. Like, you're going to. You're going to hit PRs.

[A]

You, you're. You're in the. Here's the other thing. That's good because I could tell you like to move because you already made the comment of, like, you do your training and then you come back and do another full. I don't want you to do that.

[F]

That.

[A]

And if you got to move, go for a walk, listen to more podcasts or an audiobook. Go. I'm okay with moving. Moving, walking, stretching, yoga, mobility. All good. But you don't need any more than three days of maps Anabolic to build the physique that you want to build. It's there in that. And more work is actually only making your thing harder because you already have a hard time eating enough calories. So if you already have a hard time eating enough calories and then you're doing all this extra moving, you're making my job. Job that much harder to build that physique that you're trying to build. So trust the process. Stay at three days a week. Eat the 400 calories. I'm telling you, give it. Give it 30 to 60 days, and you should already see a difference. All right, sweet.

[F]

Thank you. Appreciate you guys.

[A]

I'd love to hear back too, because I think.

[C]

Let's have you back on.

[A]

I think you'd be really excited.

[C]

We'll have you back on a few months and do it and just see what happened. Yeah.

[F]

Okay. Sounds good.

[C]

All right, Kelsey. Yeah. She said her calories and her workouts. Yeah.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[C]

Even if she didn't switch to maps Anabolic, which is ideal, just bumping 400 calories. She's gonna go to the gym in a day or two and be like, whoa, I'm so much stronger. Yeah.

[A]

And that's the only extra advice is just try and get hella strong. Focus on that. I. We didn't. I didn't investigate enough. Although she's got a coach now, so hopefully she's not and she's listening to the show. But the other thing that I would be worried about, if she gravitates to that hit style and keep it moving, like, she's also the client. I have to say, sit still. Yeah, yeah, rest. Three minutes. You gotta sit. You can't do anything. And so if she knows that about herself and she hears this, you know, while you go through anabolic traditional long rest period, long rest periods. I mean, you cannot, don't you dare touch that weight before two, two and a half minutes. Like you got to give yourself that rest in between to really reap those benefits.

[C]

Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. We'll see you at Mind Pump Media.

[B]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.