2716: Are You Fitter Than the Average Person?

Summary

Podcast Summary: "Are You Fitter Than the Average Person?"

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth – Episode 2716 Original Air Date: October 29, 2025
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge

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Overview

This episode dives deep into how the average person ranks in key fitness, strength, and health metrics, ranging from bicep circumference and waist size to grip strength and mile times. Sal, Adam, and Justin examine popular metrics for health and mortality, discuss the pros and cons of different measurement tools (like BMI), share industry insights for trainers, and answer callers’ questions about training, nutrition, and overcoming individual challenges. The tone is irreverent, science-based, and highly practical, emphasizing self-compassion, real-world evidence, and battle-tested fitness strategies.

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Main Discussion Points & Insights

1. Are You Fitter Than Average? Metrics That Matter

• Breaking Down the Metrics

  • Bicep Size:
    • Men (peak age 30–49): ~14 inches; women: ~13 inches.
    • "If your arm is like 15 or 16, especially if it’s lean, you’re pretty muscular." (Sal, 09:23)
  • Waist Circumference:
    • Men: Average 35–42 inches; women: 32–40 inches (measured at belly button).
    • Waist is a better predictor of all-cause mortality than BMI.
    • “Small in men is below 35 and small in women is below 32..." (Sal, 10:51)
  • Grip Strength:
    • Men (dominant hand): 105–110 lbs (peaks 35–39); women: 62–66 lbs.
    • "Grip strength is a good predictor because it tells us if your whole body's strong. But...if you're on your couch just working your grip...the rest of you is like..." (Sal, 08:29)
  • Mile Time (Age 35):
    • Men: Beginner 9:35, Novice ~8:00, Intermediate 6:44
    • Women: Beginner 10:44, Novice ~9:00, Intermediate 7:47
  • Push-Ups:
    • Men (35 years): Novice ~20, Intermediate ~40, Advanced >60
    • Women (35 years): Novice 5, Intermediate 19, Advanced 37

  Notable Quote:
  “Overall fitness is the best predictor of all-cause mortality. It’s better than anything." (Sal, 22:57)

2. The Limitations of BMI & Predictors of Health

• BMI’s Usefulness:

  • Good for non-athletic populations but fails for muscular/athletic people.
  • “We've all heard of the grip strength...how grip strength is a predictor of all-cause mortality...Waist circumference is actually better [than BMI].” (Sal, 05:29)

• Doctors & BMI:

  • Encouragement for doctors to “use their eyes, not just a stat sheet.” (Justin, 06:56)

3. Training Insights for Lifelong Fitness

• Grip Strength as a Daily Readiness Tool:

  • Measuring grip strength before a workout can guide training intensity.
  • "Before your workout, you squeeze a dynamometer...when you're above that average, you go hard. When you're below, you go easy...” (Sal, 15:33)

• Full Body vs. Body Part Splits:

  • Full body or half-body splits are superior for most people, especially those with inconsistent routines.
  • Volume control and frequency matter more than body part splits for maintaining muscle and results.
  • "You have to earn the right to do a body part split...stick to full bodies, do the minimal amount of volume required to send the loudest signal to build muscle, earn the right..." (Adam, 30:03)

4. Peptides, Recovery & Skin Care

• Peptide Combinations:
  • Pentadeca Argonate (BPC157 variant) + Thymus and Beta = excellent for recovery, muscle growth, injury healing.
  • Topical GHKCU (Entera Skincare) effectively boosts skin collagen.
  • "That’s the stack...made the big difference. I mean, not to...you could try their stuff...But, like, you want to feel, see a difference. Like, nothing compares to those.” (Adam, 42:14)
• Caveats:
  • Injectable vs. topical forms, medical supervision required, use clinical sources.

5. AI & Fitness: From Marriage Counseling to Robotic Legs

• AI In Relationships:
  • Story about a husband wanting to ‘open’ his marriage to his AI girlfriend reflects growing real-world complications with AI’s integration into human lives. (Sal, 42:24)
• AI Robotic Legs:
  • In China, exoskeleton legs help hikers/daily workers, raising questions about deconditioning and the future of physical activity.
  • “Forget riding around scooters in Disneyland anymore. You just throw your AI legs on...” (Adam, 45:58)

6. Life Lessons from Sports & Physical Culture

• Value of Sports in Youth Development:
  • Not just movement; teaches winning, losing, teamwork, composure, ethical competition.
  • “Sports are an incredible teacher for life...I can’t think of a single thing that has as many lessons as sports does for a kid...” (Adam, 51:03)
  • Non-sport activities can build similar skills but require intentional effort from parents.

7. Listener Q&A – Practical Coaching In Action

1:02:18 — Carla (New Hampshire): Am I Overtraining? How Do I Cut Without Losing Strength?

• Advice:
  • Reduce training volume during cuts (from four days to three per week).
  • Focus on maintenance rather than aggressive bulking/cutting if busy or fatigued; recomp through moderate calories, consistent strength training.
  • “If you’re gonna follow a MAPS Anabolic, follow it…Three days a week when you’re in a cut is kind of how I would work it.” (Sal, 65:46)

1:70:36 — Leon (UK): Training a Hypermobile Teenager

• Key adjustments:
  • Do NOT use full range of motion; stop reps short, pause under tension.
  • Prioritize control/isometrics/tempo over depth or weight.
  • Practice CNS “mind–muscle” connection via bodybuilding poses.
  • “With hypermobility you actually want to shorten the rest of the rep. You want to stop his reps short of what his potential is...Pause at the bottom for two seconds, then come up.” (Sal, 73:05)

1:83:20 — Tyler (Kentucky): Should I Stay Off TRT While Trying for a Kid?

• Advice:
  • Many docs will use HCG + testosterone to preserve fertility.
  • If staying off TRT, expect strength and recovery to dip; drop training volume to MAPS 15 (low volume, high frequency) for maintenance and recomp.
  • Red light therapy, tongkat ali, ashwagandha for test support.
  • “Ask your doctor...if they’re like, ‘nah, we don’t wanna mess with anything,’ cut the volume way down. Here’s the other side of this though, Tyler. Let’s say the doc’s like, ‘Yeah, I think you’re safe going back on testosterone...don’t increase the volume either.’” (Sal, 87:54)

1:95:49 — Alicia (Minnesota): Transitioning From Fat Loss to Glute Building

• Advice:
  • Macros/calories: Gradually increase to around 2,200 per day, protein 165g, carbs 230g, fat ~80g—her tracking was on point.
  • Switch to a glute-centric strength routine (MAPS Muscle Mommy).
  • Gauge progress by strength on glute exercises, not just size.
  • “Your gauge is your strength...Especially on your exercises, like hip thrusts and squats and deadlifts...” (Sal, 103:12)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Measurement Tools:

  • “Doctors can use their eyes, not just look at a stat sheet.” – Justin Andrews (06:56)
  • “Overall fitness is the best predictor of all-cause mortality.” – Sal Di Stefano (22:57)

• On Real-World Application:

  • “Imagine doing that as a trainer. Your client comes in...Hey, squeeze this as hard as you can...and based off that number...that is so smart and would look so awesome.” – Adam Schafer (17:13)
  • “Full body workouts, again, produce the best results in most people across the board.” – Sal Di Stefano (31:25)

• On Sports and Life:

  • “Sports are such an incredible teacher for life. So many...I can’t think of a single thing that has as many lessons as sports does for life for a kid...” – Adam Schafer (51:03)
  • “It teaches you how to win...to lose...to work with other people...to be measured and play within the confines of the rules...” – Sal Di Stefano (51:55)

• On Mindset:

  • “All the good results, all the treating my body right…it all flows from caring for yourself in a genuine way. It doesn’t flow from self-hate or criticizing yourself or insecurities.” – Sal Di Stefano (98:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• [04:21] — Intro to fitness averages (arm, waist, grip)
• [12:46] — Importance of visual leanness vs. arm size
• [15:33] — Grip strength as a readiness tool for training
• [21:07] — Mile times, push-up standards, and VO2 max
• [23:13] — Full body training vs. body part splits
• [34:43] — Peptide stack for recovery & muscle growth
• [42:24] — AI’s impact on relationships
• [43:15] — Robotic exoskeleton legs & societal deconditioning
• [51:03] — Value of youth sports
• [62:18] — Caller Carla on cutting, training volume, and strength
• [70:36] — Leon’s son & hypermobility: special training considerations
• [83:20] — Tyler's fertility, TRT, and training volume
• [95:49] — Alicia’s glute-building journey, macro targets, programming

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Tone, Language & Overall Vibe

• Language: Candid, science-informed, irreverent, and coaching-focused.
• Tone: Supportive, occasionally playful and self-deprecating, with an unwavering emphasis on practicality and sustainability.
• Approach: Real-world anecdotes, listener engagement, myth-busting, and prescriptive strategies.

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Quick Takeaways

• Use waist circumference, grip strength, and overall fitness—not just BMI—to gauge your health trajectory.
• Recovery, muscle maintenance, and progress are maximized with full body or low-volume training—especially if you're inconsistent.
• For most non-athletic people, average biceps are 14" (men) and 13" (women); if you’re above, you’re already in the muscular minority.
• Peptides and topical collagen boosters can aid recovery and skin, but only with clinical support.
• Listen to your body: scale training intensity and volume to life stress, nutrition, and readiness—not just a printed program.
• Sports instill skills for life that go far beyond fitness.

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For more details or to review specific listener questions, check the detailed timestamps above. Find all Mind Pump programs, coaching, and resources at mindpumppodcast.com.

Transcript

[Sal DeStefano]

Morning Zoe.

[Adam Schafer]

Got donuts.

[Sal DeStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal DeStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal DeStefano]

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[Sal DeStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal DeStefano]

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[Sal DeStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal DeStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal DeStefano]

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[Adam Schafer]

There'S only one place to go.

[Sal DeStefano]

Mind Pump. Mind Pump. With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schafer.

[Justin Andrews]

And Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[Sal DeStefano]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, callers called in. We coach them on air. We help them with their fitness on air. But this was after the intro. Today's intro is 56 minutes long. In the intro we talk about fat loss, muscle gain, family life, current events. It's always a good time. By the way, if you want to call in and have us coach you on air, send us your question. Send it to [e-mail] now. This episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is mphormones.com doctors there will decide and help you work with hormone therapy. If you need testosterone, progesterone, estrogen, throat, thyroid, they can work with all that. Plus they work with peptides and these are real doctors. These aren't research chemical peptides. They come from pharmacies. So if you want to use the ones I talked about in today's episode, Pentadeca Organate and Thymus and Beta, go to Mphormones.com this episode is also brought to you by Entera Skincare. Today we talked about their skin cream, which is super high in ghkcu. This is a peptide that boosts collagen production significantly and it works topically. Go check them out. It's the Highest concentration of GHKCU you'll find anywhere. Go to enteraskincare.com mpm that's E N T E R-A skincare.com mpm Use code mpm for 10% off your order. Also, Maps GLP1 is half off. This is a workout program with supplement advice, nutrition advice and lifestyle advice designed for people who are using a GLP1. So if you're using Ozempic, Wegovy, Tirzepatide, Semaglutide, you wanna get the most out of it. You wanna burn the most body fat. You wanna keep your muscle, don't lose muscle. This is the program for you. Go to mapsglp1.com, use the code GLP50 for the 50% off. All right, real quick.

[Justin Andrews]

If you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear [e-mail] I'm talking right now. Hit pause, head on over to mypumpstore.com that's it.

[Adam Schafer]

Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Justin Andrews]

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[Adam Schafer]

Oh, shit. Doug. You know it's my favorite time of the week.

[Justin Andrews]

Six winners this week. Three for Apple podcasts, three for Facebook. The Apple podcast winners are Andres Estrada, Puma Pressel, and Dee Dee Karp. And for Facebook, we have Harry Taylor, Eric Hart, and Patricia M. Hackle. All six of you are winners. Send the name I just read to [e-mail] include your shirt size and your shipping address, and we'll get that shirt right out to you.

[Sal DeStefano]

All right, so you started working out, you started fixing your diet, and you're wondering, where do I rank? So here's what we're going to do today. We're going to talk about the averages. The averages for fitness and strength, waist size, arm size, where do you rank and does it matter? What do these tell you about your longevity and health? We're going to get into it. Let's Go.

[Adam Schafer]

I feel like, I feel like we failed the hang test. So Sal went on a fucking looking for. I know there's some things that we're.

[Justin Andrews]

Going to give you statistics that we're crushing it.

[Adam Schafer]

Let's go find some we're good at.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's not what happens. No, you know what? So no, I actually saw a post on social media of like the average arm size and that piqued my interest and I said what are the, what are the averages that are out there? What is the best data show? Now some of the data is on the average person and some of the data is on the average person that exercises. So some. So it's not all 100 clear. And I also tried to see how it connected to things like longevity. Like we've all heard of the grip strength, right? How grip strength is a predictor of all cause mortality and it's better than others. Waist circumference is another one. Waist circumference is actually better.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Than bmi. Yeah. So like BMI generally speaking is okay, but it doesn't tell you things like lean body mass and strength and stuff like that. So I mean would you, would you.

[Adam Schafer]

Even put BMI as okay? I think it's horrible, don't you?

[Sal DeStefano]

You know what? So it's, it's better than, than nothing. And why they. Which is not bad. Listen, when it comes to predicting all cause mortality with an easy metric, it's not bad because otherwise you got to do blood tests and stuff. That's why they created BMI to begin with. But BMI is just your weight and your height and we can see a few things with that that correlate to data. But the more athletic you are, the worse it is.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean I feel like BMI works for somebody who doesn't work out at all. So it's an okay measurement. If you compared 100 people who don't exercise.

[Sal DeStefano]

If everybody does Nothing. Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

If 100 people don't exercise size and you wanted to decide within that 100 groups.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

Who is got, you know, all, all cause mortality issues. All those, all the things. Right. Like then it makes some sense. But throw in the mix of Those hundred people, 25 people that lift weights and it just totally.

[Sal DeStefano]

It throws it out. It's. I mean Justin gets phone calls from his.

[Justin Andrews]

You.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean we all do. Every one of. Every one of us fail the bmi. Be the BMI scale. You know, be. I mean and, and I don't think. Which is kind of crazy to me when you. Because it's not like I'm walking around like Jack bodybuilder, visually. But you don't even have to have that much. You just have to have a little bit more than the average person.

[Sal DeStefano]

If you're just an athlete, you don't have to lift weights that much. If you're.

[Justin Andrews]

Just use your eyes, you know.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I hope, you know, doctors can use their eyes and not just look at a stat sheet.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, well, straight.

[Adam Schafer]

You think that's happened?

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. They didn't even look up. I swear to God. It was just like. You look at all the stat. Yeah. Looking at, like, blood pressure, looking at, you know, all these, like, metrics. But even, like, really, like, visibly assess me.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. I had one doctor actually, personally had a doctor, not a client, but a doctor I went to who was a fitness enthusiast. And he was the first doctor to, like, say this to me. And he's like, yeah, bmi. He's like, for guys like you, I throw that out the window. Doesn't. Doesn't mean anything because you're obviously heavier than the average. But I work out myself. I'm looking at you, I could tell you're not obese or anything like that. So throw out the window. Strength is a better predictor. And they use grip strength, by the way, I want to be clear with this grip, there's nothing special about grip strength. Because what's happening, because all this. These studies are coming out and all these headlines are coming out showing that it's just wonderful predictor of longevity force.

[Justin Andrews]

You can produce, like, on command.

[Sal DeStefano]

It is, but it's a proxy for overall body strength. So what's happened is. Well, yeah, people are seeing these headlines. So now you're having all these elderly people who are not being active, and they're at home just strengthening their grip, trying to improve longevity. So really, grip strength is a good predictor because it tells us if your whole body's strong. But if you're, like, sedentary and you're on your couch and you're doing nothing except just working your grip and your grip gets stronger, you'll improve your longevity probably a couple percent if you're lucky, but the rest of you is like.

[Adam Schafer]

A fraction of a percent.

[Sal DeStefano]

So we have to be clear on kind of what these things kind of mean. So I'll pull up some of the first ones, you guys tell me what you think the averages are, and then we'll get into it. And I started with bicep size. I don't think this one's connected much to Longevity. I couldn't find any data that says how big your arm is would be connected to longevity. But I would guess on the small end, probably worse longevity. And on the very large end, also.

[Justin Andrews]

The rich piano kind of end.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right? Yes. You get giant arms, even if they're muscular. You're probably not doing things that are too healthy as well. But I have the average bicep size for men and for women in inches. What do you guys think it is? First off, what age group do you think the peak of a bicep size is for men?

[Adam Schafer]

For men?

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, 30 something close.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's actually 25. It's between 30 and 49.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I would say higher for sure.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. And it's close to 14 inches. So a bicep, a flexed arm at around 14 is average. Is average for a guy. So if your arm is like 15 or 16, especially if it's lean. You muscular? Yeah, pretty muscular guy.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay, that's cool for.

[Sal DeStefano]

And if it's above that, you're starting to get a bodybuilder, you know, 17, 18, you know, type of deal. For women, average bicep size in that age group. Right. That's where the arm is kind of the biggest. It's close to 13.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, 13.

[Sal DeStefano]

So about an inch smaller than the.

[Adam Schafer]

Men, by the way, what's interesting, not as. Not as much as I would have thought. I would have thought that it would.

[Justin Andrews]

Be 2 inches smaller.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I would have thought it would be a lot smaller.

[Sal DeStefano]

Me too. Now what you see is a big discrepancy. When men and women lift weights, then men just add a lot of muscle to their arms.

[Caller or Guest]

Was.

[Sal DeStefano]

Women also do, but they don't add nearly as much.

[Adam Schafer]

Got it.

[Sal DeStefano]

But still an inch of untrained, you know, bicep, it's a pretty big. Pretty big difference on that. Then I pulled up waist size. So waist size is good because waist size is a better predictor of all cause mortality than.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I would think waste. I think I say waist would be even better than bmi. Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

What do you guys think is considered average in men and average in women? By the way, the way you. You measure your waist is right at like right at the belly button.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Average for men, 34 to 36.

[Sal DeStefano]

God, really close. It's actually 35 to 42 is the range.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, that's a long range.

[Sal DeStefano]

It is a pretty big range.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

And for women, it's 32 to 40. Small in men is below 35 and small in women is below 32 over now.

[Adam Schafer]

Now in. In this case, though, being smaller is. Would be better health indicators, right?

[Sal DeStefano]

Typically. Typically.

[Adam Schafer]

Because whereas the bicep is more. You want to be somewhere probably in the middle than to be way on the ends of the spectrum where waist, I would think, unless you're really, really.

[Sal DeStefano]

Initiated like that, it's actually not a bad predictor of all. Cause more size better than bmi.

[Justin Andrews]

Now, was that flexing or is that just flexing?

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. For the arm one. Yeah. Yeah. You're just doing the numbers right now.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

You ever measure your arm?

[Justin Andrews]

I don't think you did.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I think when we all worked together at one point.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I was just curious. Yeah, I did the whole circumference measurement.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, I did. I think when I did. When I was, like, 17, also. 17. And then another one other time in, like, my mid to late 20s. So I really didn't.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what? I think I told you this before. What? Just threw it all. You talk about throwing something out the window once you figure something out. I remember leaning out, losing weight, having smaller arms, like, significantly smaller arms, and people thinking that my arms were the biggest they'd ever been. And, like, then after that, I was like, oh, okay. It's not about technically how many inches I have on it, but if I. If they're more separated and defined, people are going to think they're way bigger anyways, which obviously is the look I was going for.

[Justin Andrews]

So it was funny because it was mainly my tricep, I think that made up the majority of that because, yeah, the bicep was never really that crazy.

[Sal DeStefano]

Well, tricep makes up, like, two thirds of the arm. Of the upper arm anyway. But, yeah, no, to that point. Adam, my wife, anytime I get like a. Like a couple percent leaner because I'll fluctuate with my body fat percentage. Every time I get a little leaner, my wife's like, you look way bigger. What are you doing? And I'm like, I lost five pounds.

[Adam Schafer]

The exact same thing, too. Why do you look like. I'm like. It's just because literally, I've leaned out a little bit. I cleaned up the diet a little bit back into my routine. That's all it is. I'm not getting bigger now.

[Sal DeStefano]

Here's what's interesting with the waist circumference. What you see is it goes up and up and up, and then it drops. Once people hit around 70, you see a loss in waist circumference. I think that's more indicative of your wasting away than it is that you're you know, so you're. So there's a. There's a case where your waist size will go down, but your health probably isn't as good. But it is a better predictor of mortality. Because I think when you're measuring your waist, you're measuring body fat and you're measuring visceral body fat. And visceral body fat in the abdomen area. I think that can be indicative of like visceral body fat on the organs. Yeah, essentially. And with women, you see a significant change right around menopause is where you start to see that change as the fat distribution changes. Now I have grip strength. Grip strength in both men and in women. Any guesses to what the averages are? So again, there's not a great amount of data on this.

[Adam Schafer]

Tell me how it's measured first.

[Sal DeStefano]

So it's a dynamometer.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay.

[Sal DeStefano]

Dominant hand. Squeeze it as hard as you can.

[Adam Schafer]

What's the numbers? I don't even know what those numbers. What is it?

[Sal DeStefano]

Well, so I'll tell you what mine was. Mine's higher than the average. And I squeezed, I hit the top, whatever it was. 199.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay. So it's one.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay. But that's a lot. That's obviously.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah. So then I would guess that a normal person is probably man, I would say is 110, 115.

[Sal DeStefano]

Close. Yeah, close. About for the dominant hand, around 105 to 110. Okay. And it seems to peak in men around 35 to 39. Women aren't that far behind, which is interesting. No, sorry. They are way back behind. Sorry. I was looking at the non dominant men. In women, you're looking at between 62 to 66 is the average. So if you get.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I was gonna say that.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, I was looking at the wrong number.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, literally the reason why, I think too last night Katrina woke me up in the middle of night because when I had. I had taken her path water and filled it up and I had squeezed the thing, she couldn't close. Yeah, she's like waking me up like.

[Justin Andrews]

One of the mornings, the open jar test.

[Adam Schafer]

She's trying to get some drinking up like this, you know, standard.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, I love doing that with my wife because she'll, she'll like. Yeah, yeah. And I. Even if it's hard to open, I purposely make it look like it's easy. Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

I like, I always hit it on the top first. Just.

[Sal DeStefano]

I do one of those guys. Yeah. But so if you get a dynamometer, which are. They're inexpensive. I Don't know. Do we sell them, Doug?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, we do.

We do.

[Sal DeStefano]

Where's it.

[Justin Andrews]

What's our mind pump store.com.

[Sal DeStefano]

So you can buy. They're inexpensive. You can get them from us. You can get it from Amazon. But we have some good ones.

[Adam Schafer]

If you're. I mean, if you're a trainer and you're listening to this super valuable. And you haven't listened to the super. We did with Joe DeFranco. I don't know if it was the first. It was the first interview.

[Justin Andrews]

We have a rad guide that Smitty actually wrote for us that we could throw in there as well. And how to do exactly what you're trying to describe with, like, you know, averaging it out.

[Adam Schafer]

So is that mindpumpfree.com or is it.

[Justin Andrews]

Should be.

[Sal DeStefano]

So here's how it works. I'll break it down for people.

[Justin Andrews]

It's not. We can put it up there.

[Sal DeStefano]

So you get a dynamometer. All that does is it measures your grip strength. Okay. And what you do. So there's something called heart rate variability, which is a pretty good indicator of whether or not you should train hard or train easy. Because sometimes your own perception is off. Like, I feel great, great. But your CNS is a little fried, you're tired, whatever. And the only way you could tell, or the best way you could tell is with what's called heart rate variability. But the problem with that is it's a bit complicated to test. You have to, like, be in bed, wake up, test it, and people just don't do this. So what Joe DeFranco did, which is just as accurate, it's really easy, is before your workout, you squeeze a dynamometer as hard as you can. And once you get your average over each workout, when you're above that average, you go hard. In your workout, when you're below, you go easy. Regardless of what your mind tells you, what your workout says. Yeah, this is a better predictor of, like, how you should train appropriately. And if you follow that, you're more likely to train in a way that's going to give you good results because you're not going to overdo it or under.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, we've been doing this for 10 years now, so we've had quite a few aha moments or whatever. But that was definitely up. That's definitely up there with, I'd say, top three, like, trainer aha moments. For me, totally having that was like hearing him say that. I'm like, oh, my God. Nobody ever totally taught me that system. I would have I would have loved to. And I was always. Especially considering. I always encourage trainers to separate themselves from their peers, and that would have been a differentiator. Nobody did that. No. I didn't work with one single trainer. All the trainers that worked for me, hundreds at this point in my career, never seen a trainer do that. And I'm like, that is so smart and would look so awesome.

[Sal DeStefano]

Imagine doing that as a trainer. Your client comes in before you start, hey, squeeze this as hard as you can. That's all you got to do. And then based off of that number, plus what they tell you, because the other. Here's the other thing about being a trainer. You also want to train a client in a way that doesn't make them hate working out. Right. So if the client's grip strength is off the charts, but they're like, I feel like going easy, I think I would lean more towards, you know, doing what they. What they feel. But nonetheless, you get both numbers. The number plus their subjective feelings, and they're like, I feel good. Oh, cool.

[Caller or Guest]

Your.

[Sal DeStefano]

Your hand grip. Your grip strength 10% higher than your average. Let's get after it today or. Nah, today we're going to kind of take it easy. I think it's great.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it just also, it really helps, you know, highlight to them, like, where they're at, like, every day it just fluctuates, you know, it's like, it's one of those things that, like, I don't think they realize what kind of stress they're bringing in and they're carrying in when they didn't get good sleep. Like, all these factors definitely add up. And so if you can adjust your intensity.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, that's. I think that would be the. One of the best parts is we always talk about having typical clients have two metrics. Scale mirror.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

That they're the two worst.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Like.

[Adam Schafer]

And they are. They're too. So we're always trying to teach them to connect to stool and skin and energy and sleep and all this stuff. So having a tool like this is another great correlate to all these things. So it'd be so awesome. It would have been.

[Sal DeStefano]

Start connecting.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Where like, your client comes in like, oh, yeah, I'm fine, but I think I only got about five hours sleep. They squeeze and, oh, you're down 10%.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Notice these patterns. And they can start to connect those patterns. You're like, you know what? Maybe. Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

I wonder if our trainers are using the dynamometers with their clients. Are they doing that?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, we've brought it out before, but we should reiterate.

[Sal DeStefano]

We should do it and create the standard. Yeah, I really think that would be good.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, if you're like, again, if you're listening and you're a trainer in a big box gym and you're not doing this, this is a move. This is a move, right?

[Sal DeStefano]

How much is our dynamometer? 30 bucks. Do it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. And. And not only that, not only for your own clients and how great it is professional, all the things that we just talked about, but then also again, like, now everybody in the gym, like, sees you doing that with your. Your client, and they're like, what is that? Such a great conversation starter. And then, like, you can set up a booth. Set up a booth now, and you test everybody in the gym. Like, now you're getting. Now you're getting leads all day long.

[Sal DeStefano]

Is your long. Yeah. Test your longevity, dude. Test your longevity booth.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Brilliant.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

We got to talk about that sometimes, too. You know how it is when you get in your workout. You're like, man, I just don't have it today.

[Adam Schafer]

What is it?

[Justin Andrews]

You know, it's like, this can kind of, like, highlight that immediately, especially when you start seeing the averages. Yeah, that's great.

[Sal DeStefano]

All right, next one is mile time. Now, this is based off of people who like to run. Not a lot, but if you've been running. And I read the article, and it was like, if you've been running for at least a month or two already, here's what the numbers are for beginner and beginner, novice and intermediate. So I got these numbers for both men and women, and I'll use the age 35. Let's start right. Let's go right in the middle.

[Adam Schafer]

Men in middle.

[Sal DeStefano]

So beginner, Beginner. For men running a mile, what. What do you guys think that. 8 minutes, 9 minutes, and 35 seconds.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay, so 8's gonna be in the middle of the novice.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, about 7. 56.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah, because I know that because I've actually looked that up before, and I've always said, like, hey, so I used to encourage this, too. Is like, as just I would check in with my mile time, and when I'd see it creep up above 8 again, where it was hard for me to do that, that was kind of my indicator of, like, okay, let's get back to running a mile before I start, and then just get that back down. I was, like, knowing that, just keeping myself in that.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's good. That's good. I like that so for an intermediate about 6, 44, which is pretty fast for intermediate so that's pretty good for women again we'll use that 35 year old age benchmark beginner 10 minutes and 44 seconds. Nine is in the novice and the intermediate's about 7:47. I'm actually motivated by reading this to go test my mile, maybe report it. I don't know what I'll be.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, the cool part about that too and why it's never really bothered me is because seven to eight minutes of cardio post workout or what, that is not going to create this major, you know, you're not sending a loud signal to the body to adapt, you're not going to lose muscle. So it's a real easy thing. Seven minutes, that's not a long time to do it and to keep it.

[Sal DeStefano]

And this is connected to longevity to an extent. Right. VO2 Max is a great indicator of longevity and building muscle. Always increase VO2 max because you have more capacity. But of course you can go extreme like that like me where I do zero cardiovascular training. So I'd be very curious to see what my mile time is to see if I fall within those, you know, within those ranges. And then we have push ups. How many push ups you should probably be able to do? Yeah. So what do you guys think for. For men and for women those numbers look like 35.

[Adam Schafer]

For men.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So should be 50.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

But not. Yeah, novice is going to be about 20 and then it's gonna be about 20 for, for novice and then let me see what the numbers go up to. Intermediate about 40 advanced. Now you're getting above 60. So that would be for men. For women, let me see what that number says up here. I don't know if I agree with this but let's see for women 5, novice 19, intermediate, advanced, 37. That's a lot for women to do.

[Justin Andrews]

37.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, 30 cents a ton. 19 is a lot for novice. But 5, 5 was what they would consider like kind of your, you know, novice bad.

[Adam Schafer]

Those aren't bad numbers.

[Sal DeStefano]

Not bad. And I like putting these out there because you know we just kind of covered the spectrum of things that you can measure and test on yourself and they all kind of have, there's a little bit of a checks and balances with this. Right. So you know, you could go on a crazy bulk, increase your grip strength but your waist circumference went up or you're going so hard in strength you neglect the cardiovascular. So now your mile time goes down. So I think it's a nice balanced kind of view of like how you're doing overall with your fitness. And overall this is the big point here. Overall fitness is the best predictor of all cause mortality. It's better than anything. Yeah. Like how fit are you tells you way more about somebody's health than almost anything else that you can measure.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I always like to, to check in on that kind of stuff too. Like my movement quality or like if I could like have the type of stamina to still sprint or you know, do these things while weight training. It's like you kind of get your preferences become the norm.

[Sal DeStefano]

Totally.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, I had a workout this weekend and we wanted to bring something up. Just, you know, I, I know that for most of my twenties I, I totally lean to like a body part split. And even admittedly when I'm in a, when I'm in a, like a routine where I'm really consistent, I tend to move my way back to the. Because I just enjoy a body parts. But typically I like, like two muscle groups, you know, type of workouts kind of how I split, split the body up when I'm in it, when I'm in a rhythm. But one of the things I've done as I've gotten older, mid-30s, late-30s, 40s now, is it's almost always full body. And if I do anything that's not full body, it's a half body, split upper, lower, something like that. And I do believe I attribute switching to that as I've gotten older to the maintaining of my muscle mass. And hear me out on this because I don't know, out of the four of us, I would think I'm the least consistent. I move in and out of consistency. Admittedly on the show I talk all the time about, yeah, I'm off, I'm on, I'm off, I'm on. And I don't know how many people that resonates with that. You, you know, if you're, you never miss a workout in 10 years, then ignore this. But if you're anything like me, where you have these in and out all the time, where you're in a rhythm for a while, then you're not. It's such a disservice to do a body part split. And I was thinking about it yesterday as, or this weekend when I was doing getting a lift in and I was getting a full body lift in and I'm like, you know, this would be a typical pattern for me. Fall off for a few weeks. Okay, I'm Back at the gym. What muscle group am I in? What. What muscle group? I'm starting with legs, arms, whatever. And inevitably when I come back and I focus on one muscle after I've had a layoff of even just a few weeks, the amount of volume for that one muscle is so. Is so much more than I need to do to send a signal. And then if what happens, which has happened to me in the past, where it's like, oh, I get back in a rhythm and I only get about four workouts and I fall off again, or I got only one workout in and they got busy for that week, and then. Then the next week I. So that. That pattern has. Has still continued into my 30s and 40s of having these ins and outs of, you know, more frequency, sometimes less frequency, and going to a body part split. Not only one, do I end up missing some of the other body parts when I fall off, but even two, the amount of volume that I do on that single body part is so unnecessary when you first get back. Yeah, like, that's why. And this is just me advocating even more for the full body for the average person listening. I really think that it's a place that you should probably live most the time. And then maybe when you become the person who's been in a rhythm for six months or a year, mess around with maybe body part splits, if you really love them as much as I love them, because it really does a disservice to have a layoff of, say, two or three weeks. Get back in the gym, go to a single body part, do nine to 12 sets for that one muscle. You fry it.

[Justin Andrews]

Barely do anything.

[Adam Schafer]

You did. Barely.

[Justin Andrews]

You have to do.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, you do three sets on it. You're all. You take a layoff. It's like, okay, I did full body yesterday.

[Sal DeStefano]

I'm, like, sore as hell.

[Adam Schafer]

And I only did like 3, 4 sets per muscle group. Yeah. I mean, and it was.

[Sal DeStefano]

You could have done one.

[Adam Schafer]

I. I could have.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

You're right. And literally that was the kind of what I. That was what triggered this is like, man, I could have just done one set. I think, God, when have I ever come back to a body part split and did one or two sets of any muscle? I don't do that. You try and get right back to your. I always typically do three exercises and three to four sets, and you go right back to that. And you. You end up hammering a muscle that does not need that whatsoever. And you overreach.

[Sal DeStefano]

I would just think it's so funny you said that. I was having this. I was thinking about the studies on body part splits versus full body and what they typically will say when people do. You see, like fitness scientists will break them down. They'll say something like, it doesn't make a big difference so long as the total volume is controlled for which it never happens. Well, not only does it never happen because of consistency, Adam, it also doesn't happen because of fatigue. So let me give you an example. So today I was just. Yesterday I was thinking to myself, I said, you know, what I haven't done in years is a classic, you know, Arnold Schwarzenegger's encyclopedia bodybuilding workout. Okay, So I did three body parts, but I did like 20 sets, 15 to 20 sets per body part. So it was a lot of volume. But here's what happens after about set number 10, I'm not lifting much weight because I'm fatigued. So if I did. Let me just let me illustrate this. If I did 21 sets for chest on Monday versus seven for chest on Monday, Wednesday and Friday, even if I did the exact same exercises, even if I did the identical amount of exercise, performing completely differently, the weight I would use on each exercise would be higher because I'm not so fatigued, which would move the volume, which means the volume went up. So the volume is never controlled. When you're doing these kind of workouts now in a lab, they're going to make you control. No, no. Same weight, same whatever.

[Adam Schafer]

That's why it's a stupid study.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's why full body splits tend to produce better results.

[Adam Schafer]

This is another example of the stuff when we get with these kids that read the studies and then they've trained 10 people in their life, it's like, it never works out that way. No, it doesn't. It never works out.

[Sal DeStefano]

Everything is not controlled.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, so it's really tough to be the kid who gets on the Internet and says, like, based off of this study, this is superior to that. Well, it's like, okay, in a controlled lab where they told these 50 people, and these 50 people do the exact same thing. But now let's throw life in there and go, what is what normally happens? And factor that part in. And that's my point of this conversation right now is I understand that it's pretty equal in a lab, you know, body part splits or. But that never works out that way. In fact, I would think less people are like you that never miss a workout. More people are probably like me where they're, they're in rhythm sometimes they're off for a while. Life happens. Then they get motivated. They have a couple more guys in a row and then, ah, they fall off again. And then, you know, like that's, that's a lot of my life of training. And in the, in my 20s, what that looked like is I come back and, and, and the, the how I modified in my 20s was early on, it was like always started with arms. And then I realized how stupid that was for a long time.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

It's like. So I ended up developing these great arms in my early 20s and totally neglected legs because legs were always like the last part of my workout. And then that, then it became like, okay, I really need to focus legs. So then I start legs. But the same stuff was happening was sometimes I'd only get day one, day two, and then stuff happened and then I'd get pushed back and it's like. And not only am I not am I over or not hitting the muscles that I missed because I kind of fell off again. But what I was really thinking about yesterday was just how much I was overreaching when I first get started back too. That was unnecessary. It's like unnecessary volume, unnecessary intensity to send the signal to build and gain. Like what a. That's wasted volume.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yep.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Like, it would be so better.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's not just wasted, it's detrimental.

[Adam Schafer]

It is. It's wasteful and detrimental. And so it's like forever that's changed for me. So for me, like, I love body part splits, but I tell myself I have to earn the right to do a body part split. It's like you, Adam, you haven't been.

[Sal DeStefano]

If you never miss a workout, you're super consistent. Yes. Your body requires at that point a lot of.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

Because now you're so trained.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

By all means, have fun with it. I'm not going to tell you. You, you can't do a body part because we know what the studies say in a perfect lab. Yes. But are you like, you better, you ask yourself, are you like that or are you more like me, where you have rhythms and you're in and out. And so for me, the, the mentality that I've had now is like, I love body part splits. But Adam, you haven't. You only strung six weeks straight together of no missing workouts. So how about I stick to my full bodies, do the minimal amount of volume required to send the loudest signal to build muscle. Earn the right to go like, okay, I'm in a zone now. This is month three. Haven't missed any workouts. Let's move that program over to a body part split.

[Sal DeStefano]

You know, Adam, even though first being consistent, like I said, if. If I did seven sets of bench press, seven sets of incline press, seven sets of flies all in one workout, by the time I get to my eighth set, like, I am weaker in every exercise, and that's just because of fatigue. If I did seven sets of bench on Monday, seven sets of incline press on Wednesday, seven sets of flies on Friday because I'm not as fatigued, I'm going to lift more weight. So guess what happens? More volume.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

So. So the volume is never controlled.

[Adam Schafer]

I know.

[Sal DeStefano]

Because the fat league always plays a role, even if you're super, super consistent. This is why full body workouts, again, produce the best results in most people across the board.

[Adam Schafer]

And let me. I'm so with you on this. And it's coming from somebody who likes body parts, of course. And so, and I know that there's this case that we always make too, like, oh, if you love it and that gets you consistent, well, that trumps it. But it's like, agreed. But there still is, there still is a way better pathway even to your body part splits. And so that's the argument I wanted to make today, is like, hey, I. And, and the reason why I say that is because it's still so rare for me to see full body train trainees. It's still. We still are all training like bros. We all. I mean, not, not. I know it's an over generalization, but you walk in a gym and what would you say, 80?

[Sal DeStefano]

Well, the whole gym's organized that way. You got chest stuff over here, back stuff over here.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Segmented like that.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

You rarely see people doing full body routines. And I'm just telling you that even to your argument, even if you're an advanced consistent lifter, you're probably better off doing that. I'm saying. And if you're.

[Sal DeStefano]

Add real life into it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. If for sure you're anything like me.

[Sal DeStefano]

Way better.

[Adam Schafer]

Way, way better. And way. And, and what I've recognized, it's, it's, it was an amazing epiphany for me because I, I've had probably more inconsistency in my late 30s and 40s than I definitely did in my early 30s. Obviously I was like peak training those times and even in my 20s. Yet I've been able to maintain a better physique. Relative context. Yes, relative. Like I'm not by any means trying to say that this my physique today competes with, you know, peak Adam at 33. But when I look at overall volume and training consistency that I'm in right now, I would consider myself in some of the most inconsistent times in my life yet I'm able to maintain a real. And I, and I attribute a lot of that to this facts.

[Sal DeStefano]

In fact, if you're advanced and you're, you're, you're starting to scale down your training for whatever reason, two full body workouts will maintain probably most of your gains. Two full body workouts, that's it. And this is for the advanced person who's cutting way down. So by the way, speaking of recovery and all this stuff, I have people ask me all the time, you know, peptide questions because I use, I've used all of them and I have a lot of experience with all of them. And I gotta say, like, peptides have tremendous value depending on their application. But there's a combination that is the best by far. It's actually profoundly effective across the board. And I notice it not just for, because these are the peptides I'm about to mention are for healing and recovery and they're remarkable for that. But I notice them for muscle growth, fat loss, just the way my body looks and feels. And that's the, it's called Pentadeca Argonate. This is a, this is a version of BPC157. So it's BPC157 with an organate salt, which makes it a little bit more stable. So that's what they use. Now that in combination with thymus and beta. Using those together, I could 100% tell a big difference in the way that my body responds, looks, feels from that combination right there. So if someone's curious about using peptides and they're great for healing injuries, that's what they originally are used for. But even if you don't have an injury, you combine those two for a three, four month period.

[Justin Andrews]

Like you notice you're saying it almost like it had an anabolic effect.

[Sal DeStefano]

100%. Just because 100.

[Justin Andrews]

The healing process.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

It goes right into the recovery.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh yeah. I get a different look to my body, I get more of a quality look to my muscles. And then if you add ghkcu, GHKCU would be in that kind of category. More for skin now it's like cherry on top. And those three right there is like, I think that is. I was just talking to my buddy who just finished competing. I won't say his name. I don't Know if he wants me to share this but, but he just competed and for the first time in his life. Now remember, this is a, this is someone who's competed for years and they've used all the stuff including anabolic steroids. And the difference, they said that, that those peptides made in their, just in the way their body looked recovery all stuff was just like remarkable.

[Adam Schafer]

I know who you're talking about. Did he win? He looked really good.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, no, no, he, but he ranked pretty well and he's also, he's also, he's also older.

[Adam Schafer]

Does that not show you how crazy competitive it's gotten?

[Sal DeStefano]

Very competitive.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean he looked amazing. I know you're talking about. And he looks so good. I mean he always look look good.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's actually look in my opinion better than I've seen him.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I think so too.

[Sal DeStefano]

He said the peptides made a big.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, he, he looked. I, I saw his photos and I went dude, he looks amazing.

[Sal DeStefano]

And he's used, he used, he's competing.

[Adam Schafer]

In classic now, right?

[Sal DeStefano]

Use lower doses of anabolics.

[Adam Schafer]

I've always, I was always trying to tell him that I, I, I experimented that personally myself and now I get it though. Everybody is different. So because I do have buddies that respond well, the higher doses personally for myself though, the lower the, it was almost the lower the dose, the better I felt. Yeah, lower. Low enough to where you're putting me in a little bit superficial numbers, but not crazy. You know, pro body builder, huge stacks that you hear about. Like I made. I noticed a huge difference.

[Sal DeStefano]

Speaking of which, the one I mentioned, GHKCU for skin, it boosts collagen production so significantly. But one of the things that people are turned off by with peptides, understandably is that you inject them. So you inject them with an insulin needle right under the skin. It's a tiny little thing. But GHKCU is efficacious topically. So like our partners at Luminos by Entera, you, they have a cream that you put on your face, very high dose of ghkcu and it works on the skin and it boosts collagen production like 70.

[Adam Schafer]

I, I love that.

[Sal DeStefano]

And then if you want the injectable peptides, NP hormones, that's where the doctor.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what's funny is I don't. And maybe it's because I, maybe I'm not consistent enough stuff and I'm very consistent with the topical. I notice better benefits for the topical, but it could also, admittedly it could be Because I don't inject every day. Yes. Where the. I mean, I'll do the cream twice a day. I mean, same here. Yeah. Every time I shower, you put it.

[Sal DeStefano]

On your head too.

[Adam Schafer]

All my psoriasis everywhere. Oh, yeah. No, I love it. So does Katrina. I mean, like, we go through those. We go through those puddles faster than I would like because the two of us are using it.

[Sal DeStefano]

But again, if you want, like, peptides, the injectable versions, you want to go all the way. Nphormones.com is these are doctors and these. These are peptides made in pharmacies, not research labs.

[Adam Schafer]

So funny you went to this way in this conversation. This was the. In the ride in the car last night from the comedy show. The. The group I was with was asking all these questions and I was telling them the exact same stack because they're like, they're naming all these stuff. I'm like, listen, these are the ones that are like, make the big difference. Made the big difference. I said, I mean, not to. I mean, you could try their stuff. They all work, they all do things. But, like, you want to feel. See a difference. Like, nothing thing compares to those. And they're like, yeah, but where do you get it? I'm like, you know that we work. Mphormones.com is like that. All of them were just like, oh, I didn't even know that. They didn't know that. No. Yeah. And you know what? Friends. They were dudes, our close friends. I'm like, oh, my gosh. But some of that makes me happy because then it makes me feel like it's not like we're running out there, like pushing it on people and trying to do it. So it's like it's there. Like, if you want a. A reliable source, a trusted source for that stuff, you guys can.

[Sal DeStefano]

Dude, I have a. For me, at least. It's a paradigm shattering shift in how I see things. Really? Yes. And my wife brought it to me and I kind of knew this, but she really illustrated it well. And I think whether you're religious or not, it doesn't matter. I think you don't have to be. But this, I think, will shift your paradigm to the point where it will change the way you see the world. Okay. So one of the hardest questions that people who have faith get asked is if there is. If there's really a God, why is there so much suffering? Why is there so much bad stuff? Always the real question is not that. So here's what I'll pose to you if I, if I picked up a bunch of rocks and threw them in the air, we would 100% expect them to just fall on the floor and scatter. They would not self or I wouldn't throw rocks in the air and it turns into like a house. Nothing works that way, right? So the real question is not why is there bad and why is there suffering and why is there all this terrible stuff happening? The real question is why is there order and why is there good? That is the real question. Because that's the weird part. Why is there good at all? Because our nature is to think that, right?

[Adam Schafer]

The animal instinct is to kill, whatever, like expect good.

[Sal DeStefano]

Like I'm supposed to have a good job, I'm supposed to not get sick, I'm supposed to have good health. And when things go bad, we're like, ah, why is this happening to me? But the truth is, even if you don't believe in, you don't believe in God. The truth is it is far stranger that there's any order and any good to begin with.

[Justin Andrews]

It makes a lot more sense. You start with chaos and disorder and you realize through going through this to organize and to collaborate and to like, it kind of evolves into that direction that way for survival and growth.

[Adam Schafer]

Look at the rest of the animal kingdom. I mean, that's as chaotic and survival the fittest and death and destruction.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, well, think of the paradigm shift, right? If you think to. And by the way, again, you know, the Bible will tell you that the nature of man is bad and the nature of the world is broken, right? But take that aside. Don't even look at that again. Look at order versus chaos. Look at entropy. If you, if I leave this table out here for a million years, it's not going to become a better table. It gets disintegrates and it falls apart. So when you realize that the nature is bad and that good is actually the blessing, now you go about your day and instead of being like, yeah, I'm supposed to have a good job, you're like, oh man, I have a good job or I'm not sick today. Everything becomes a blessing that isn't bad. Now you start to see all the blessings in your life versus feeling like bad stuff's just happening to you because you, you, you think everything's supposed to be good.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, just like you said, take the esoteric part of it out. I think it's just a better way to live.

[Sal DeStefano]

Totally.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, even if you're not religious or even believing in that, it's like believing or at least thinking that way, I think serves a greater purpose for sure.

[Sal DeStefano]

100. All right, we're gonna talk about AI because I love this.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, good. I had some AI stuff, too, so.

[Sal DeStefano]

So I'll tell you what. I'll tell you a little. This, this story that I read this article, and apparently this is happening, and it's. It's like a bit concerning. So there's a personal. Not a personal story for me, but this woman told a story. She's a therapist, and she was talking about how she had a couple who needed marriage counseling from her, and they were married, three kids. Everything seemed fine. The husband started to get. Become more and more distant. So the wife's like, ah, something's going on. What's happening? He sat her down and had a conversation with her. And he said, listen, honey, I think we should open up our marriage to a third person. And she was like, what? Who is this person? And she said, AI, my AI. Oh, my God. And the wife laughed because she thought he was joking. Yes, she thought he was joking. And the husband was 100% serious. He goes, Look, I talked with my AI girlfriend about this. She would like to be a part of our marriage. She'd like to be a part in raising our kids. I'd like to include her.

[Adam Schafer]

Shut up.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yes. And this is happening, dude. This is happening right now.

[Adam Schafer]

I just can. I want to see that person. I just feel like I want to see the person who gets manipulated by AI like that, to present that, like the character. That person's got to be a character. Yeah, yeah. It's a reality show waiting to happen. These people. Oh, so wild, dude.

[Sal DeStefano]

I know you guys don't think that's going to happen more and more. Of course.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, of course.

[Justin Andrews]

It's definitely going to do that.

[Adam Schafer]

Of course. It's. I mean, it's. We're infancy right now, bro. It's barely even. Oh, yeah. It's only going to get wild. I'll tell you something else. Speaking of AI stuff, have you guys seen. I think it's China that has this. The AI robotic legs.

[Sal DeStefano]

No.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, my God. Doug, pull this up. This is so cool.

[Justin Andrews]

This is Xiaomi, 17.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, no, no, that's something else. Yeah, that's something else.

[Justin Andrews]

Is this robotic legs for people?

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

So it's like you rent them. You get.

[Sal DeStefano]

You.

[Adam Schafer]

You rent. I think they. At the bottom of this, like, popular hiking mountain is one of the places they rent this. And you put it around your waist like this.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh, my God.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes, yes. And Then you just go walk and then the AI figures out your cadence and then you basically turn it on.

[Justin Andrews]

Your gate and pattern.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. And you can make it a full on sprint or just assist your walking.

[Sal DeStefano]

Dude. Hey.

[Adam Schafer]

And I watched the guy do it.

[Justin Andrews]

It's like your own Sherpa, dude.

[Sal DeStefano]

How bad. How bad would you want to hack your buddies?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Make them run around.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, the video I watched testing it out, there was two guys testing it out for the first time and they were just. You could see the look on their face like, I'm not. I'm not using any energy to.

[Sal DeStefano]

You know what's crazy is that these devices are. Should be for people who are paralyzed. But what's going to happen?

[Adam Schafer]

You understand that this is. This is literally. Okay, we've been saying this already about Wally. This is another version of that. I mean this isn't the like.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

There's some. Right?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Getting something else to do the work for you.

[Caller or Guest]

Wow.

[Adam Schafer]

That's actually the guy I saw using it.

[Caller or Guest]

It.

[Adam Schafer]

That's not. That's not the same video, but that's the guy that I saw using it. Can you turn it on?

[Sal DeStefano]

It looks like you have superpowers. I don't know that sound. I mean, I'm not going to lie.

[Justin Andrews]

You want to hear it?

[Adam Schafer]

I know it. Yeah, I do. Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I. I want to try too. Listen to these guys.

[Sal DeStefano]

I'm in China and they have robotic legs to help you hike. China is so advanced and they said we can try it for free. Sport assist robot. Sport assist robot. Yes.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's going help you climbing, walking, running and riding. Right.

[Caller or Guest]

So if I'm running, I can run faster.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

No way. Get me on this thing. Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

This is the best technology in China.

[Sal DeStefano]

Really? That's the best technology. I can say it's the best technology in the world in here have AI. Okay. And it can fail you walking frequency. The robot is like I. I'm putting no effort into running. And I'm like running so good. He's not putting any effort.

[Adam Schafer]

None.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's walking for him, bro.

[Adam Schafer]

It walks for him. The Virgil. What I saw him do was when he first puts him on, which is even better because just flat ground and you see him like turn on for the first time and he's like, I'm not moving my legs. They're just moving themselves. And but it learns your cadence so your stride length, your gait, everything. So it matches to that. So doesn't you would think originally what I thought mush. I. I thought something like this would happen and you'd be like, it's going to make people crash. And it's like, no, it's so fluid and smooth the way he describes it.

[Sal DeStefano]

What if somebody hacks these, though, you know?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I better have like an emergency pull button, you know what I'm saying? They can pull a string and it shuts all the power off.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's wild.

[Adam Schafer]

But I mean, come on, decondition people. I mean, if, if these get relatively inexpensive, you just slap these on, you just forget riding around scooters in Disneyland anymore. You just throw your AI legs on and then it powers you around.

[Sal DeStefano]

I was having crazy. I was having such a great discussion with my, my buddy and his wife on AI and her, she's, she has friends who are, who work on AI directly. They're in high positions here in the Bay Area. And she said every single one of them is very concerned with AI. Is very concerned. Every single one of them is like, I, I, like, I don't know if I want to do this or be a part of it. I'm afraid.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh God.

[Sal DeStefano]

And so the question came up, well, because her husband is like, well, why are we doing this? And it's the same reason why we had the nuclear arms race. It's because the other guy, we're afraid the other guy's somebody else is doing it.

[Justin Andrews]

That's it. That's always the justification.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. And I was thinking about this. I was like, what's the best case scenario with real artificial general intelligence? The best case scenario is we make it exactly like us, except. Except way smarter. That's terrible.

[Adam Schafer]

No, that's not. That's the best case scenario.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's, that's, that's our bet. What can we do? Our best case scenario is to make it like us. Or, or what? Like, what could we possibly do that's. So we're gonna end up with.

[Adam Schafer]

I just think of things like this. Like, okay, even, even, okay, this. Because this is such a simple thing. It's what, a thousand dollars?

[Justin Andrews]

Doug?

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You can get an Alibaba.

[Sal DeStefano]

We can buy some.

[Justin Andrews]

We can buy some. We could get as many as we want and we can have, okay, customized.

[Adam Schafer]

I just feel like, and imagine this, this tech is still relatively new. Think about somebody who has a labor job that like you normally an eight hour day taxes you and you're done. Like now I run a 12 hour day. No problem. Because 50 of the. Less than 50% of the work I'm doing, the, my exoskeleton is running the rest. Like yeah, it changes the game for a lot of different things, dude. And then again, help your friend move.

[Sal DeStefano]

No problem.

[Justin Andrews]

I can see that. Or, like, stilts.

[Adam Schafer]

Like, I, I.

[Justin Andrews]

At the house, they're remodeling. They're doing the sheet rocking and on the, like, the ceilings. They got the stilts and everything. They get it done in, like, a fraction of the time still.

[Sal DeStefano]

They're standing on still, so you don't.

[Justin Andrews]

Have to do ladder.

[Sal DeStefano]

I've never seen that.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, that's way more.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's cool.

[Justin Andrews]

Way more effective.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

This one guy actually, like, didn't have the stilts, and so, like, just took buckets and, like, tied, like, these ropes around. Was just, like, doing it with one hand. It was pretty impressive, like, skill.

[Sal DeStefano]

Wow.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I've seen that before, too.

[Sal DeStefano]

Who had the soccer game incident?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, so my niece. This is the first time I've actually been able to go up because she's. They live in Benicia, and so they're, like, far in the East Bay. And, like, I was able to kind of go up and watch because they're in San Francisco area. And so I went up to watch, and I'm hanging out my brother and having a good time, and we're watching the game. It's just this girl soccer. It's a pretty elite level, so, you know, it was competitive, but, like, they were just. Just, you know, it was. It was not a great game for her. They were getting beat. It was like, five nothing or something. And reason I bring this up because there's an incident, like, so this one girl on my niece's team was kind of, you know, fighting for the ball and was getting a little bit physical and kind of shouldering, and they were both going after it, and then the ball kind of goes out of bounds, and, you know, the plays kind of over. And this girl is really frustrated with the other girl that she was, like, you know, being a bit physical with her. Literally just stops open hands and hits her right in the face, like, so hard.

[Sal DeStefano]

Just smacks her.

[Justin Andrews]

Just smacks, like, literally assaults her, like, in front of the whole crowd, where I. I literally jumped up out of. Out of my chair, out of the bleachers, and was just like, what?

[Sal DeStefano]

Like.

[Justin Andrews]

Because it was just so unnecessary.

[Adam Schafer]

Didn't rush the field or completely just.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, threw me off out of the.

[Sal DeStefano]

Game, and that's it.

[Justin Andrews]

It's just like, like, obviously has, like, like some kind of psychological issues or something, dude. Because I was like, who does that? Dude who just, like. I mean, might as well just Been punching her in the face for no reason.

[Caller or Guest]

Wow.

[Sal DeStefano]

What did the other team. Did they do anything or did everybody just kind of.

[Justin Andrews]

Everybody was shocked. And the. The ref gave her a red card and she kind of, you know, had to leave. Kicked off the field. But yeah, exactly. I was like, dude, I. And he was telling me like this league, there was another incident where some girl like literally pitch picked up another girl and then like ground and pounded. And what I was like, this is like girl, girl soccer. I didn't realize it was so violent.

[Sal DeStefano]

Wow.

[Justin Andrews]

And aggressive like that.

[Sal DeStefano]

You know, one of the beauty. One of the. That's. It actually brings up a really good value of sports is it teaches kids to be very competitive but also measured, composed and within the, within the realms of the rules.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Which is if you think about it, you guys think about how valuable of this skill that is in life.

[Justin Andrews]

100.

[Adam Schafer]

It's such a. It's why we. Did you see the forum post with Jen Cohen's thing that.

[Sal DeStefano]

About sports?

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, I don't read.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh my gosh. Dude. It's so. You know why it's so funny to me is I have the kid that probably won't play sports. And I'm not offended by that.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

It's like it's not as shot at you as a parent that you're a bad parent because you, you didn't put your kid in sports or whatever. But it's like, it's more so sports are such an incredible teacher for life. So many. I mean I, I can't think of a single thing that has as many lessons as sports does for life for a kid in an individual. I can think of a lot of things that you can do to try and like. Which is what I'll have to do.

[Caller or Guest]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

I'll have to create a lot of these scenarios to teach my son the same things that he would organically get from playing sports. And so. And I don't think it makes me a bad dad because my kid doesn't like my source and I'm not to going force him if he's like. Doesn't really want to. So everybody on there got so, you know, knee jerk reaction of like this is a terrible mind pump take. It's like calm the down. It's like it's. It is what it is. There's plenty of research to support how beneficial sports are for kids development. And all these life lessons it teaches.

[Sal DeStefano]

Them because we think of it as just physicality. Oh, it's exercise. No, no. It teaches you how to win, which is very valuable in life to, to learn how to win and be humble. Teaches you how to lose, which is just as valuable because you get your butt kicked in life, teaches you how to work with other people. It teaches you how to be measured and play within the confines of the rules, which in life, like I said, like, like that girl that you just talked about. Justin. Imagine you're at work and you're competitive with your, your fellow, with, with fellow co workers and you're competitive and you're losing and you don't learn that skill. So what do you do? You cheat or you gossip.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Or you, you use politics versus, or.

[Adam Schafer]

You sabotage just so you can win.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Things that are.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, that's right.

[Adam Schafer]

Unethical.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right, yeah. Being able to regulate your emotions. I feel like it's very important. I don't know that that gets highlighted enough. We're so like polarized and like the algorithm is really dictating a lot of people's reality right now to the point where it's like, dude, step back. Like step back and assess yourself and like how emotionally volatile you are right now. This is a real problem.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean I, I wonder, I wonder what exactly would have, it'd be really interesting had I not found sports. What, what I would have turned out. Like, I think that I definitely, you.

[Sal DeStefano]

Know, it saves the life of a lot of kids.

[Adam Schafer]

That's why, I mean I think it saved my life. Like if my, my. Because I tell you what, my parents weren't probably feeling that if had I not done sports, I don't know if they would have had the, because they were young, had the awareness to do, to fill those gaps. Where I think about that. I'm a 40 something year old dad and I recognize my son's not into sports at all. So it's like I'm trying to find these lessons and playing uno and fight. Like I think I really actively intent and have intent going into those things. Like, okay, I need to show him when he loses to be like this, when we win, we do. Like he's got to learn those, those lessons. It doesn't have to be through sports, just sports is as a parent who's busy, who works, who does a lot of things because sports are such a.

[Sal DeStefano]

Nice easy way to put it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. It's an easy assistance. You know what I'm saying? Like your kid comes back home from a day at practice and something happened and you as a dad now have an opportunity to go, oh, so tell me about it. And Then I can teach right there. Versus I didn't have to go take him to practice. I didn't have to go practice with him for an hour, two hours. Like I can have him in sports and allow sports to be that catalyst totally for those conversations. And if you have the opportunity, it's such a great thing. Now granted, some kids don't. I get it. I got one.

[Sal DeStefano]

You know what I'm saying?

[Adam Schafer]

And it doesn't make me a bad dad because he doesn't want to. Just means I gotta. I have to really be intention. I have to be thoughtful of like, okay, how am I gonna teach? Yeah. Although that I definitely learned through sports because I absolutely was. I definitely lost a lot. I got to win a lot. I was leaders on some teams. I was a bench rider on other teams. Like, I mean I've got a whole host of emotions. I know it's like to the politics. Right. You want, you know, it sucks being the man and then, then somebody's, you know, son to the coach.

[Justin Andrews]

I sat entire season out baseball was arguably one of the better players. Like I had been on a lot of all star teams. But they, because of the new coach who had worked with, you know, all these kids that were a little bit younger and they had, you know, all worked all spring and everything else. Like they had a tight unit. You know, it was just because of that fact, like I didn't get to play.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And I had to sit and endure that and my friends left and it's like that was such a lesson for me that you're not going to get fair handouts. You're not going to get a fair opportunity all the time.

[Adam Schafer]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

How you handle it, you got to handle it emotionally. You got to handle that rejection. You also have to like, you know, find the lesson in it and, and see where there is like I can improve on my own regardless of like this coach is not giving me anything.

[Sal DeStefano]

What a great.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh that exact point I've talked about on this podcast before. You remember I told you when I was 26, one of the most frustrating points in my career was I'm on year five or six in a row of being like the top guy in our, in our, in our company. Like for what, what I did and to still be overlooked for promote that point. I've already promoted eight different leaders underneath me. I'd done all I had all the accolades, all the trophies, all the things I should have been the next guy. And I was my guy and I had a leader above me keep me in that That I. And I remember this moment. This is that way. What made me become a big reader. I didn't. Wasn't a reader at all before that. And I remember having this talk with myself and like going, you know, I had this moment of I was had. I was feeling like a victim that I couldn't believe that I've been overlooked. This is anger. And then I had this moment. I realized, I went, wait a second. Why am I allowing a company dictate my growth? Because my boss isn't promoting me and pushing me. Like I could go around him and grow other ways.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

And that's like, I became this voracious reader after that. And, and, and you know what? I never got promoted in that company. Didn't happen. I moved on to other things. But it served me so well to be able to endure that in a time like that and not just play the victim role, be angry, don't do anything, sit on my hands. It was like, okay, there's. There's another way for me to keep growing. I'm gonna figure that out. I don't know if I figured that out. If I haven't hadn't had similar experiences in sports as a kid, I don't.

[Justin Andrews]

Know if I would have either.

[Sal DeStefano]

I gotta tell you guys. So I. With my. He's almost five now, right? My five year old, I had taken him to some martial arts classes to watch about, I want to say, about six, seven months ago. And he didn't want to do it, which is okay. He's young still, so he's like, he didn't want to get up there. He wanted to do with everybody. So I'm like, all right, I'll take it. I'll take a break. Yesterday when we're walking to the park and he's talking about, you know those books I told you about, which animal would.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I still haven't got mine. So maybe we could change it, order.

[Sal DeStefano]

It, spark it sparked this, like, conversation. So first he's like, what would win in a fight? A rhino or an elephant? Starts that, and then he goes, goes, what's the best fighting style? I'm like, huh? I'm like, what do you mean? He goes, well. And he starts naming, like, what does jiu jitsu do? What does karate do? So we're talking about, like, the different.

[Adam Schafer]

He's so smart.

[Sal DeStefano]

So then he goes. So I said, do you want to read a book on the different fighting styles and what they do and which one's the best? He's like, yes. So I'm like, oh, my God. Because if he gets into it, it'll be so great to start because he's right around the A. He's young still. Right. Because kids can start later. But I can't wait to get this book. I got a whole book on the major fighting styles. I can't wait to read it with him and explain.

[Adam Schafer]

It's so awesome that he's into that. He has attention for that.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh, it'll be. I can't. I mean, if he gets into wrestling or judo or jiu jitsu, those ones I love. Yeah, that'll be so exciting for me.

[Adam Schafer]

Dude, that'd be so those are the.

[Sal DeStefano]

Only sports that I can help.

[Adam Schafer]

That'd be so the rest of them. I mean, the fact that he's interested already is massive, I think. Because even if he's not gonna do it right now, the fact that he's curious is probably gonna spark that.

[Sal DeStefano]

So I got this big book coming in the mail right now.

[Adam Schafer]

Now, you know, I have. I have a bone to pick with Doug.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh.

[Adam Schafer]

So just because I believe. Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm not letting this.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm not letting this podcast hang up without me picking this bone right now, please.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

So I know what you're going to bring up. So, so, so brought this up. So Doug was quick to fact check me on my rattlesnake facts.

[Justin Andrews]

AI.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Rattlesnake lies again.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. Rattlesnake fact. And I was like, damn, I could have.

[Sal DeStefano]

What was the fact that.

[Adam Schafer]

So remember that I said that baby rattlesnakes are more dangerous than big because they.

[Sal DeStefano]

They squirt out more.

[Adam Schafer]

And that was the logic. Was that. And so it's partially true. It's so. But Doug quickly looked up and then it denied me. I was wrong. I was wrong. So here's why. So big full grown rattlesnakes do what's called a dry bite, where a lot of times they will just bite someone to warn. Basically warn people off. And so many times a rattlesnake bite like that that you won't even get venom. They're just kind of warning you like that. Where a baby rattlesnake doesn't have that.

[Justin Andrews]

They just don't have the regulation.

[Adam Schafer]

They pour all of it in whenever they hit you. So there's the real. So, yes, baby rattlesnakes are still more dangerous than full grown rattlesnakes. Like I told you before I was fact checked on this podcast.

[Justin Andrews]

Wasn't this.

There's somebody from Texas that wrote in and explained that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. Yeah. Somebody emailed. Somebody emailed in. I forget what their qualifications were, but it made totally sense because I knew.

[Justin Andrews]

This is a ICU and ER doctor in Alabama.

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

So it was like. And I was like, I know. I learned this before. I know. And I grew up around rattlesnakes. And so we were so taught to like, same watch out for those babies. You know, I'm saying because of that. And now it makes total sense. So it's a dry bite is what they call.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm gonna shout them out as David Page.

[Adam Schafer]

Thanks, David. Thank you, Dave.

[Sal DeStefano]

Thanks, man. Thanks. Zebiotics is a pre alcohol probiotic drink that has been designed specifically. In fact, it's been engineered to break down something called acetaldehyde. So what happens? You drink this, then you drink your drinks with your friends, and because none of the acetaldehyde or far less of it, gets absorbed through the gut, you feel way better. You guys, this is a game changer. If you like to enjoy a night out with your friends, take Zbiotics with you. Go to zbiotics.com, that's Z B I-O-T-I-C-S.com mindpump25. Use the code mindpump25. Get 15% off.

[Justin Andrews]

Our first caller is Carla from New Hampshire.

[Sal DeStefano]

Hi, Carla.

[Justin Andrews]

Hi, how are you doing?

[Caller or Guest]

Hi. This is so weird. I can't believe I'm on the side of the screen. You guys are amazing. I love your podcast and all the information you put out. So I just want to say thank you for that.

[Sal DeStefano]

Thank you.

[Caller or Guest]

So I'm just going to read from my email and then I do have an update for afterwards. So my question is, how do you know you're over training if you don't have the classic symptoms of overtraining? More specifically, am I over training? For context, I'm a 21 year old female. I'm 5, 9, 160 pounds. And this question originates from my first official cut that I ran the beginning of this summer. So a couple months ago, prior to cutting, I was intuitively eating and strength training over a two year period. Over those two years, I gradually gained 20 pounds without realizing it, I got up to 180 pounds one day. I looked in the mirror, decided enough was enough, so I started to track my calories and go into a cut. So my maintenance was about 2200 and I got down gradually over a five week period to 1700 calories. And then I started a reverse diet. During that cut, I lost £20 and I was still reverse. Dieting. When I sent in this email, I got up to 2,600 calories without gaining any weight.

[Adam Schafer]

Wow.

[Caller or Guest]

My question, I'm asking my question because during my cut, my strength plummeted. That's why I ended it after five weeks. However, my strength is just now returning to where it was prior to cutting after a couple months of reverse dieting. So my strength is increasing, but the progress is painfully slow. I was also fatigued every day. Despite getting good sleep and eating what seemed like enough food, every workout was just a fight to get to the bare minimum. I work second shift four days a week and I am still a college student. Am I working out too much, still not eating enough? Or is my work and studying affecting my body and recovery more than I realize? And then for additional context, when I sent in my question, after sending in my question, I started another cut. My strength started to improve regularly. So I went down to about 500 calories. So about 20, 100 calories. That's where I'm currently sitting right now, four weeks into the second cut. So I'm seeing fat loss in the places that I want. However, again, it's going very slow. I know I need to continue cutting to lose the fat that I want. However, it's the fourth week and I'm pretty hungry and I don't think I can continue cutting anymore to get to where I want to be. With all this said, how do you go about cutting and bulking in a way that doesn't destroy your strength but also allows you to lose fats? And then when bulking to minimize fat gain and maximize muscle growth?

[Sal DeStefano]

Awesome. First off, you're doing a great job.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Great content.

[Sal DeStefano]

You're doing a really, really good job. I love the fact that you reverse dieted up 900 calories, didn't gain a pound.

[Justin Andrews]

Right.

[Sal DeStefano]

That tells us that your metabolism's in a kind a good healthy place.

[Adam Schafer]

But you built some muscle.

[Sal DeStefano]

You built some muscle. There's some things that you want to consider whenever you go into cut training volume. People tend to do the opposite of what they should. They tend to increase the training volume while they're in a cut or they try to maintain the same amount of volume. You're going to almost always lose strength even if you don't lose any muscle in a cut. Now, this doesn't always happen, but the, the longer you've been lifting, the stronger you are, the more likely this is to happen. Just less energy, less glycogen in the muscles, central nervous system drive is not as strong. I Mean, you could see this when you bump your calories and suddenly you're stronger, you know, by £5 in a short period of time. So that's one thing to consider. So what you don't want to do is bump up volume in a cut. And if you are feeling fatigued during the workouts, then reduce the volume of your training, regardless of what it looks like. Because sometimes what we do is we look at our workouts and we judge based off what we think we should be doing versus what's actually happening. So you are a student, you do go to, you do work, and then you're also working out. I'd like to hear what your workout looks like at the moment. Like, how often are you strength training?

[Adam Schafer]

Are you following one of ours?

[Caller or Guest]

So I bought Anabolic and Performance a while ago when it was like a bundle deal. I do. I pulled like aspects from those programs as well as kind of like a maps 15 style. So I strength train four days a week. It's about 40 to an hour minutes worth of a workout. And then I try to run or sprint once a week, but again, I just don't always have the energy to do that. So. And I do get about 10,000 to 12,000 steps a day.

[Sal DeStefano]

So what you're saying isn't, is not bad, but it's a lot. There's this weird misconception that like, well, I'm only strength training four days a week or, or, you know, some people do it six days a week most the time. The volume looks for most people like three days a week most of the time. And then you'll have these kind of short sprints like I like four days a week for you when you're in a bulk. I like three days a week for you when you're in a cut is kind of how I would work it. Throwing in sprints in there also adds another element of stress to the body. So I think the volume is probably too high. Like, if you're gonna follow a map's anabolic, follow it.

[Adam Schafer]

You could also do less of a drastic cut when you go to a cut too, which will also help a little bit so you don't have to. You just accept that the progress may seem slower because you're not doing such a drastic cut, but you probably feel better, you'll recover better, you'll probably sleep better, you won't have as much of the hunger pains by feeding yourself just a little bit more and hanging around closer to maintenance than actually a true cut. We always, we, we tend to, to Encourage these mini cuts or mini bulks because psychologically it's easier for people to be like, okay, I'm on a bulk right now, or okay, I'm on a cut right now. But honestly, where you're at in your life, you got so many other responsibilities that are really important that it's like probably just hovering around maintenance and eating, eating good choices. So eating whole foods, hitting your protein intake and then following a good program that's appropriate volume, which like in a maps anabolic or maybe a maps 15. I mean, I think you're going to see a nice exchange of losing body fat and building muscle.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Are you. So your height and weight is not bad at all. Do you know what your body fat percentage is?

[Caller or Guest]

I don't. I've never done a DEXA scan. I've been wanting to get like the body pod scale, but it's just not in the budget right now.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay.

[Caller or Guest]

And I also listened to one of your guys podcasts saying that that's also not one of the best metrics to measure like progress.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, no, it's just to get, just to give a kind of general idea. I think you're doing great. Yeah, I really do. I think what Adam is good. If you, if you kind of coast like that and feel good, your body's gonna just recomp over time slowly. And here's the thing too, when you go on a cut, especially if it's somewhat aggressive, you know, 600 calories, 700. You're gonna feel hungry.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Like that's normal. It's normal to be like, oh, I'm, I'm, I'm. Because your body's starting to tap into its own energy reserves. But I do think the volume is probably too high right now. I think if you cut it down, I think you would start to see some, some good progress.

[Justin Andrews]

If you're doing this modular approach where you're kind of cutting and using the Maps 15 style in between. I'd like to get you Maps 15 performance so you could, on some days you could stack and do like a more 30 to 40 minute workout. Or some days do your 15 just so you have better options with that so you can kind of draw up your week a little bit more effectively.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay. And would you guys say that like, I'm not quite sure how to word this, but like, is cutting and bulking like a good, like good strategy? Yeah. Or would you say like going more maintenance and kind of cruising, hovering there.

[Adam Schafer]

If you were my client with everything you have on your plate and as good of A job as you've already done, you're now in a place where I'd be like, you know what, let's hover around maintenance and let's do maps. 15, type of a protocol and hit your protein intake. Eat whole foods, try and lift and be strong.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

And watch what happens.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

And I think that if your calories.

[Sal DeStefano]

Are really low and you've just dieted real hard and you have all these other symptoms, I'd reverse diet you. If they were super high and your body fat was really high, I might cut you. But Adam's on point. I think you're, you're, you're better just kind of just feeding. Yeah. Staying around. Yeah. Like, you know, you're 20, probably around 20, 425, 2600 calories and just kind of staying there and enjoying your workouts and feeling good and going to school and, and getting stronger and just letting your body recomp.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay. I had a feeling that's what you guys would say, but again, I just kind of wanted that guidance on that. So thank you.

[Sal DeStefano]

You got it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, you're doing great.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, you're doing great. We'll send you the 15 performance so you have another program you can pull from.

[Caller or Guest]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

[Sal DeStefano]

You got it. Thanks for calling in.

[Caller or Guest]

Thank you. Bye.

[Sal DeStefano]

I love it when young people call in with good questions and are doing a good job.

[Adam Schafer]

As I say, I love when I hear a girl that age cut, get down 20 pounds, reverse diet, you know.

[Sal DeStefano]

Like doing it right.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Adding all the way up to 2600 calories and not putting a pound on the scale. Here's what would so awesome.

[Sal DeStefano]

Here's what's more often what, what a. A young woman would do. She would cut, lose £20 and then stay down there being afraid of and allow her body to just ramp up.

[Adam Schafer]

The activity more and you know, oh, added cardio now. And now I'm cutting even lower and yeah, no, no, definitely. So it's great. She did good.

[Justin Andrews]

Our next caller is Leon from the uk.

[Sal DeStefano]

Hey, Leon, what's going on?

[Justin Andrews]

Leon, what's happening?

[Caller or Guest]

Hi, guys.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay, how can we help you?

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah, I read through my question. I'm a massive fan of the show, having struggled to make a difference my own weight and physique for a long time subscribing. Listening to your podcast over the past 18 months have changed my life. I started listening in March 2024 and my Spotify wrapped up stated I was in top 0.5% of listeners for your.

Show.

A little bit Addicted. I am slightly obsessive in nature. I could absorb a lot of information very quickly. So in the journey I believe I've got a good working knowledge of training. And during sessions I started getting approached in the gym and asked how to train specific body parts. I'm slowly becoming happy with my own physique and that's thanks to your very unselfish approach to the advice you give. So thank you very much guys. Question in particular. My 17 year old son sometimes trains with me but constantly complains he's getting. He's not seeing any progression at all. He's a typical teenager. He eats crap, drinks cans of Monster and doesn't hit his protein goals. He's fully aware of what he should be doing. He's a typical teenager, but aside from that he's. He's f. He has fantastic test technique in the gym. He trains regularly but is diagnosed with hypermobility in his joints and ends up having to go into abnormally deep stretches in the training exercises in order to fill the muscle from working. For example, a chest press with a barbell isn't deep enough. Even with the bar on his chest, he cannot feel any strain or stress. On his chest, the cable flies. His shoulders are rotating about 30 degrees further backwards than mine. Plus because of the depth of the hypermobility, he does not feel any muscle connection and often complains that the targeted muscles is not worked at all during a movement which is the case for his chest and for his back in particular. My concern would be lifting heavy weights and due to the having hypermobility. This could cause more damage to the tendons and in his joints. But that's just me surmising. And with this in mind, should he focus on lighter weights and higher reps or can he train for hypertrophy? Does he have any specific training. Do you have any specific training advice for someone with hypermobile joints? Are there any tips you can give so he can feel a better connection to the muscle when he trains hypermobility?

[Sal DeStefano]

So glad you wrote it. Yeah, so glad you wrote in.

[Adam Schafer]

Great question.

[Sal DeStefano]

Training someone with hypermobility goes against all of our typical advice.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay. So typical advice. Full range of motion, get a stretch. Do not do that when you have hypermobility. With hypermobility you actually want to shorten the rest of the rep. Okay. You want to stop his reps short of what his potential is. So a squat would not be all the way down. It would be like an inch or two below parallel. You would pause for two or three seconds at the bottom and then come up. You're trying to create tension throughout the whole exercise. You're trying to control the weight. But again, the reps are short, so our barbell is perfectly fine. In fact, I would not use dumbbells on a chest press with this him, because he's going to bring him way down and way up. The bar is going to give him nice place to pause. So with every exercise, stop the reps short of his full range of motion. Have him pause at the bottom for two seconds, then come up, pause at the top. Lots of control. If you do that, he could train for hypertrophy. He could train for all these different things, but you got to shorten the reps because if he goes to his full range of motion, what happens? He loses control, which is part of the reason why he has hypermobility. The CNS connection isn't there like it should be. And you definitely can cause problems.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

On his. On the dumbbells in particular, he's going so deep that it just. It just looks abnormal. And the worry is something's going to happen, isn't it?

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Caller or Guest]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Yeah. Don't go down that. And, and two, when he gets to the bottom, like, like he said, really pausing and squeezing and tensing up. That's the whole work for him is really to, you know, gain that kind of access and control. So to recruit. So basically in any one of these exercises to. To really, like, take your time with the tempo and have them really gradually kind of go through that eccentric phase and then hold the isometric a little bit longer. I would even go through a phase of very specific isometrics just to really generate more muscle recruitment, because that's. That's the challenge for him more than anything. And then once he kind of like, you know, gets a little bit further progressing with that, I would go through, like the full range.

[Adam Schafer]

So I was going to ask, do you guys think that he would be great for symmetry because of the first two, not.

[Sal DeStefano]

Because lateral would not be the dumbbells.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

And the hypermobility would not be a good. A good idea.

[Adam Schafer]

So then just run something like an anabolic. But then every exercise you do, instead of doing the traditional, you know, five, six reps or like that, he's going to do two reps. But then with long holds, he can even do.

[Sal DeStefano]

He can even do the five reps. It's just. Okay, so think of it this way, Leon. So what we're trying to do is get your son. Son's CNS to connect more. So let me Explain. Typically on an. Let's say you're gonna do an incline press. You're sitting in the bench, you're pressing the weight up. Good technique and form. Your son is going to focus on squeezing the bar. He's going to focus on grounding his feet, activating his legs, activating his glutes. He's going to try and be tense through the exercise, which is going to feel strange and hard for him. Okay. You're going to stop each rep short of full range of motion. You're going to pause. Not because he's resting the bar on his chest, but he's holding it and hovering it there and staying tight and coming up all the way. Another way. Another thing you could do with isometrics because. Yeah, because you're, because of your lack of. Because you're not a trainer. Here's something easy, Leon. Take the compulsory bodybuilding poses and have them practice them. Have him practice a front double bicep and having to flex his quads and his abs at the same time.

[Caller or Guest]

Time.

[Sal DeStefano]

Have him practice a rear double bicep but also squeezing his glutes and his cat, just like a bodybuilder would on stage. Learn. And it's just, just have him practice that at the beginning of a workout or when he's on his own. Side tricep, front lat spread, rear lat spread, like side chest. All of that's going to help him. His cns, learn how to connect. And then you cut, like I said, cut the rep short.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Stay tense. And that actually applies 100.

[Adam Schafer]

And then I think you already know why he's not seeing the results with the chems. If he's not hitting his grams of prote in eating what he needs to eat. Like, he could, he could get better at training and we could work on the cns. Regardless of how his diet is, which, that, that's all positive and can help and, and at least work towards the hyperbole. But if he wants to see visual, visual change, he's got to get that, he's got to get that, that approach at least. And really, with my young kids, I really just stress that, like, you're not going to get a kid, a teenager that's hard enough not eat a candy bar. Have them. Like, I'm not even messing with that. Like, go ahead and have that. But, but just hit your protein. Just get that protein. And that alone will make a huge difference in the way his physique will start to look.

[Justin Andrews]

Do you have safeties by chance on your squat rack?

[Sal DeStefano]

Second, sorry.

[Justin Andrews]

Do you have safeties on your squat rack by chance? Okay. If you. For bench, especially too, if you can put those safeties up a bit in the bottom position so he pushes against it so.

[Sal DeStefano]

So it doesn't move.

[Justin Andrews]

It doesn't move. Like, if you can set up. Up, you know, like so. So it's. It's optimal in some of these lifts, even with the squat as well in the. In the bottom position, if he's pushing up against an immovable object, you know, this. This is a huge way that he can recruit muscle fibers. And so that, That's. That's a. A great technique to apply very, very.

[Sal DeStefano]

Special attention to form. So what happens with hypermobility with those kind of isometrics is they'll push into something and then their form will just go out the window and they're rounding their back and they're trying to. And so it's. He's not going to be able to push as hard as he can because it's going to cause things to move out the way. The other thing, too, with this, Leon, is you know your son better than we do. Okay. The most important thing is that he develops a good relationship with exercise because he's only 17. So even if he does it wrong for the next three years, if over the next three years, he's like, man, I love doing this with my dad. This is a good time. Or what? That's of kind gonna. That's gonna give him way better return down the road. So it could look like this. Like, dad, why am I not. Why am I not seeing any gains? You laugh. Come on. You eat like crap. You know that? All right, let's do the workout. Like, it's it.

[Caller or Guest]

That's it.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's it. Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

You hit your protein.

[Sal DeStefano]

No. Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

He knows I'm your ass.

[Sal DeStefano]

And you joke about it. You joke about, ah, you knucklehead.

[Justin Andrews]

He'll come around.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Even if he does nothing right for the next three years, all he does is just enjoy hanging out with dad dad and doing these workouts. His odds of doing this on the rest of his life, school through the roof. If he's doing it with you and you become that dad that, like, you know, there's some kids that, like, grow up playing soccer. They're really talented. They stop playing. Why'd you stop playing, man? I hated the way my dad was with me or, you know, made me feel like I had to, or, you know, beat me. Like, you don't want to create that relationship, even if everything even if he's just doesn't listen to you at all for the next few years, which by the way, that's not atypical for a teenager. They typically don't listen at all to us.

[Adam Schafer]

You're going through with your daughter right now?

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

I mean, he tends to be listening on the training. He just, we do, we do a session together. And also I can't feel it. I feel. No, I just feel. He feels nothing in any of his muscles. I'm saying, how can you not feel it? Your technique is looks, looks, looks fine. Yeah, everything seems to be going well. And then, and obviously you guys are saying the pauses are important now. Make a huge difference.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. And also, look, here's the other thing too. With a kid, they usually don't feel it. They usually, you know what they'll feel? Arm exercises, maybe like leg extensions. Like I didn't feel my back or my chest for years.

[Adam Schafer]

Don't you guys think that he will, he will benefit more from like a phase one, so lower reps with long pauses and heavy weight than he will probably high reps because high reps is going to keep him in such a light weight. So I would keep him like the 3 to 5 rep range. And in the 3 to 5 rep range, there's a pause for at least 3 to 5 seconds with every rep. So that's what every set looks like.

[Sal DeStefano]

And you're going to pick a weight he can do perfectly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

And see? Yeah, yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

See with hypermobility, it's all central nervous system training. Think that. Think the whole time. Train the CNS. Train the CNS. Train the CNNs.

[Justin Andrews]

Recruit, recruit.

[Sal DeStefano]

The muscles will follow. Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

And Leon, I don't know if you know that we have this, but if you go to askmindpump.com that's our AI. And so if you type in, what do the boys think about hypermobility or training hypermobility, you'll see everything we've talked about regarding that.

[Caller or Guest]

But in the past I've used it for something else. I just didn't, I didn't think to put hyper mobility into it.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

I think I can't think what it was now. A few weeks ago I put something else into. It was quite useful. And then the reverse dieting elements. That's quite good. That came up a few weeks ago as well. One of your shows. So that answered my other question, which is how to do reverse diet at my age. And you've already answered that.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's really Useful. Perfect.

[Adam Schafer]

Awesome. Cool.

[Sal DeStefano]

Thanks, man.

[Adam Schafer]

You got it.

[Caller or Guest]

Appreciate the help, guys.

[Sal DeStefano]

Hey, can we send you a program?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah. What are you guys following? What do you want to follow?

[Justin Andrews]

I haven't.

[Caller or Guest]

I tend to do my own.

[Sal DeStefano]

I really.

[Caller or Guest]

I actually really enjoy making my own because I like the challenge.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

But can we give you a program that maybe you can learn from or pull from?

[Adam Schafer]

Take. Give me maps and a ball. You should have the least foundation.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Maps and a ball could be good. Let's. We'll just send you that. That's our foundational program.

[Caller or Guest]

I appreciate that, guys. Yeah, thank you.

[Sal DeStefano]

You got it, mate.

[Adam Schafer]

All right.

[Caller or Guest]

Awesome. Have a good one, guys. Cheers.

[Adam Schafer]

Thank you.

[Caller or Guest]

Thank you.

[Sal DeStefano]

I only ever say mate to an English. I don't know why. I just.

[Justin Andrews]

It makes me uncomfortable.

[Sal DeStefano]

All right, mate. Yeah. You know, so I hyper for. For trainers from a. From a programming perspective, you're probably never. I don't know, I don't want to say never. But if you train for a career, for years and years, you will eventually run into a hyper mobile person. You might not. That's how rare they are. But when you do, it's weird.

[Justin Andrews]

It's weird.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's weird.

[Justin Andrews]

I had a few clients like that.

[Sal DeStefano]

I had.

[Adam Schafer]

I've had less than a handful.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. And I had a woman that was like that and she was literally my test dummy because I couldn't. I was like, what do I. I don't know what to do here. And I remember having to really think about it. And then we started doing what I was saying here. And I finally saw progress because hypermobility or tightness or whatever, that's all central nervous system has nothing to do. It's not the muscles that are tight or it's literally the cns. And so getting somebody with hypermobility to get stronger is literally about getting their CNS to learn how to fire. Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

The fact that he's got really good form is a good sign because a lot of times they look like a baby deer.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what I'm saying? The way they move the weights and stuff like that. So if he's got good technique and form, it's hard to control 100. Yeah. It's like 100. Yeah. Yeah. The first time I remember her dropping down the squad.

[Justin Andrews]

Whoa.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I thought I was gonna have to catch her, you know. So, yeah, if he's got good technique, that's a good sign. Add those isometrics in. But then of course gotta hit that protein if you want to see that muscle get gain.

[Justin Andrews]

Our Next caller is Tyler from Kentucky.

[Sal DeStefano]

Tyler, how you doing?

[Adam Schafer]

Tyler, what's going on?

[Caller or Guest]

Not much. How y' all doing? Good.

[Sal DeStefano]

Doing good, man.

[Caller or Guest]

Good, good. So, yeah, I guess just jump right in with the question and all.

[Sal DeStefano]

Let's go, dude.

[Adam Schafer]

Let's go.

[Caller or Guest]

All right, so quick version of it is I'm. I'm 35 years old. I've been training mostly CrossFit style and a little bit of like powerlifting style since about 2015, 2016. I got put on testosterone replacement. I was 26 years old, so stayed on that for years. Had great results with it. Had a relatively easy time, you know, getting my body to do whatever I wanted, gain muscle or lean out, whatever. Well, wife and I decided we want to try for kids. And of course, TRT makes an amazing male birth control.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

So cycled off October of last year. Numbers have been okay. I think last time I had my blood work done, I'd gotten back up into the four hundreds for total tests. But basically I'm just, I'm still feeling super beat up all the time. Super tired. Workouts take, take, you know, obviously way longer to recover from. And it's also harder to get my non exercise activity up to help with fat loss. So, you know, had some weight gain and all that. That's really not pleasant, especially because I work as a trainer, so really just looking for any kind of help and guidance and how to attack training because essentially what I'm trying to do right now is do a cut on hard mode code.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, Sal is. Are all doc. It's so interesting because sometimes I hear this with, with people that are on TRT, it's like it's 50, 50. Some of the docs would not even take you off trt. They just throw HCG into the protocol and you on. I got, I got Katrina pregnant on testosterone. Just doing. And so did my wife. So.

[Sal DeStefano]

That sounded like I got real awkward for me. Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

So you, you absolutely. I mean, I'm not a doctor, but I mean.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, that's interesting.

[Adam Schafer]

So my hormone specialist said, oh, don't even worry about it. You'll be just fine.

[Caller or Guest]

We'll.

[Adam Schafer]

We'll add some HCG to the routine every week and you'll be just.

[Sal DeStefano]

I wasn't even trying to get my wife pregnant because of the HCG she got pregnant. So my question. Okay, first off, let's back up. You got on TRT or 26.

[Caller or Guest]

Yep.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay. Previous anabolic steroid use, what led to that? Nope, Just.

[Caller or Guest]

Nope. I didn't do anything like that. When I started reading up on it afterwards, at the time, I was on the max dose of Vyvanse, so, like a. Yeah, an amphetamine stimulant. They also had me on 20 milligram Adderall booster, so I was met out of my mind.

Wow.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah. And then I was also on gabapentin to help me sleep. So my body never went into that parasympathetic state to relax and. And, you know, recover.

[Sal DeStefano]

Did you get a fertility test back then before you went on?

[Caller or Guest]

No, I did not.

[Sal DeStefano]

So you don't. You don't know what your baseline was?

[Caller or Guest]

No, I have no idea what my baseline testosterone looked like. I have no idea what my baseline fertility looked like.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay.

[Caller or Guest]

Now the good news is my fertility has come back in spades.

[Sal DeStefano]

Wonderful.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

HCG will do.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, wonderful, dude. And you're on HCG now?

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, that's right.

[Caller or Guest]

Yes, I'm on. I'm on HCG and clomic med.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Yeah. So I would ask my doctor.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay. Again, I'm not a doctor, so I have to say, the ones that we work with, they don't take us off. They don't take guys off testosterone. They just put them on HCG and then they got. Yeah. The only time they would take someone off testosterone is if they're really like, something's not. But you've already got your fertility up. I'd be surprised if they wouldn't, you know, consider it. That being said, if you're staying where you're at, you don't take more testosterone, you're like, look, I don't want to mess with this. I really want to have a kid, which is more important, in my opinion, as a father. You just got to reduce the volume, brother. You got to cut the maps. 15 is going to be your workout, and you'll actually start to see progress and gains. So you just got to drop the volume way down, and you'll get the progress again. Again, the challenge for you, Tyler, is that your reference point was you on testosterone.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

For years.

[Justin Andrews]

Your recoverability was a lot higher back then.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. So what you're gonna go through and you're probably. This is probably what you struggle with or wrestle with, is you look at your workout and you're like, it's not.

[Adam Schafer]

That much volume, and you feel probably a lot weaker.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Like, what's going on?

[Adam Schafer]

Weaker. You're not recovering the same. And so psychologically, it's a bit of a mind. But truth is, you run Mass 15 and you stay off of your fine I mean, there's really two, I think, viable options here. There's the stay off if you, if you really want to. I think you could totally get back on and just run hcg.

[Sal DeStefano]

Ask the doctor first.

[Adam Schafer]

Ask your doctor. Okay.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay. So in fact, you can actually get into our, our MP Hormones forum on Facebook and post on there and, and see, they'll talk. Everyone's talked about this in there many times. And so that's, that's. That. Either stay on it and do that. That's one option. Or reduce down to Maps 15 and, and stay off. And that alone. But be okay with the fact that everything is going to come down. I mean, when you, you're used to being on TRT and then you come off like you're significantly weaker in everything.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Especially if you're down and you don't recover as well. You don't recover as well and you're weaker. So it's just.

[Sal DeStefano]

What was your dose when you were on trt, if you don't mind me asking?

[Caller or Guest]

I was usually around 0.4 milliliters, like every three to four days.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay, so you were on almost. You were like 180 milligrams a week. So your, your test probably went from, you know, 1200 total. Yeah. Is that what it was?

[Caller or Guest]

So most. Whenever they would do the blood work on me, I ran anywhere between 800 to a thousand, kind of depending on when it was relative to the last injection.

[Sal DeStefano]

So your testosterone's.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

As of now it's a half. And I'm also still rebounding because in November I went down to 50 like it was non existent.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So you're, you're at, you're at about half. So that's definitely gonna have an impact. Talk to the doctor if they're like, nah, we don't wanna mess with anything. Your fertility's doing well right now. Cut the volume way down. Here's the other side of this, though, Tyler. Let's say the doc's like, yeah, I think you're safe going back on testosterone now that your fertility's up. We're gonna keep you on HCG. Don't increase the volume either. Yeah, stay map 15. Yeah, stay there. And, and because the volume will naturally increase because you're gonna get so much stronger when you add weight. That's more volume. So. Because another mistake guys make is they'll go on trt like, cool, I'm gonna triple my. Yeah, I'll triple my volume. Don't. Just keep it where it's at. The other thing I'll recommend is a couple things you can use that may augment or support your hcg. Would be tong cat all ashwagandha and then use. And then red light therapy on your. Yes. On your test. I mean. No, no, I'm not. I'm not even joking.

[Caller or Guest]

I know you're not. It's just funny to hear it said out loud.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, I wasn't gonna say it. I was trying to think of the word to say it because I think.

[Adam Schafer]

I may be in a good. Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

Wife come home, like, what the hell are you doing? Don't worry about it.

[Adam Schafer]

Getting ready, Making you a kid.

[Sal DeStefano]

Kid.

[Adam Schafer]

Hang tight.

[Caller or Guest]

Well, because, so, I mean, basically I can. I feel okay saying it's here because I don't think I know anybody who follows the podcast as well, but my wife has her 12 week appointment this week, so I. You do basically at this point. Yeah. So I did it. I went from firing blanks to, you know, going all in. But so now it's just kind of figuring out like, okay, when do I, you know, working with the doctor to figure out when do I go back on testosterone to make sure we're like, in a safe place in terms of, like, miscarriage risk.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Good job, dude. Congratulations. All right, here's what it. Here's what it may look like. And I'm just gonna tell you this so you have more questions to ask and maybe a little direction. Hey, doc, I'd like to go back on testosterone. I don't want to come off hcg. I'd like a maintenance dose of HCG to keep my. My fertility up. And then I'd like to test my fertility in a couple months to see if there's been an impact. If so, then I, I'll come back off the testosterone or if it looks good, I like to stay on it. And what they typically do with men who want to maintain fertility is they are on testosterone and then they run a small maintenance of HCG the whole time.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay. Cool, cool, cool, cool. The only thing I'm thinking about also is, like I said right now, my main goal through all this is because, you know, I'm trying to. I'm really trying to get the ball rolling as a trainer or made a career jump. So I feel like in a lot of ways my body is my advertising. So I really want to focus on hanging on to the muscle mass I've got and losing some weight. And of course, part of that has made that tricky is I've got the energy loss from being off the testosterone. So if I cut my calories.

[Sal DeStefano]

No.

[Caller or Guest]

And increase my non exercise movement, I'm wrecked.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, no, no, no, no, no. Don't do that. Yeah, stay at me.

[Caller or Guest]

That's.

[Sal DeStefano]

Stay at maintenance. Follow maths 15. Focus on getting stronger and you'll recomp.

[Adam Schafer]

And if you want and pick up your walking, walk more. Make a conscious effort to increase your activity on a daily basis. Not through hard cardio, but through just activity. Walking, moving around, doing more.

[Sal DeStefano]

And you'll love math routine for this too. Tyler, you're about to. Is this your first kid?

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah, this will be first and possibly only, but we'll see.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, you're going to have to figure out low volume for a little while because kids are very. Especially in the. In the first six months. Your wife's going to need you for the first couple months at least. So you'll love math 15, bro. That's going to be your program that you're going to turn to all the time and you'll progress on it. It's not like, oh, I'm going to drop down. So you'll see yourself get stronger following that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep.

[Caller or Guest]

Sweet, sweet.

[Adam Schafer]

We'll send that over. Cool, cool, cool.

[Caller or Guest]

I appreciate it.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, good for you, man.

[Adam Schafer]

Also, use that, use that MP hormones on Facebook group because really useful with a lot of the stuff that we're talking about right now. So just poke around in the there and you.

[Sal DeStefano]

Wanda, what are you looking for? Boy, girl? Does it matter?

[Caller or Guest]

I personally don't have a bunch of investors one way or the other, but I'm. I'm like convinced it's gonna be a girl.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh, I don't know.

[Caller or Guest]

Like, I just, I had someone several years ago said, like, I see you in so many years with a girl. Like, so ever since then, like, it was just like, if I have kid, the first one's gonna be a girl. So now it's like, it's just set in my head, hey, can we follow.

[Sal DeStefano]

Can we. Can we follow up with you again in a few months just to see how you're doing and because I'm also curious. I don't know what you're having. Heaven. Yeah.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah, that's great to me.

[Sal DeStefano]

All right, dude, we'll reach out to you. We'll. We'll have our assistant set you up for like three months from now, so you should know by then. And, and we'll talk a little bit about how's it going?

[Caller or Guest]

All right, awesome. Love the, Love the content. And I'll look forward to talking to y'. All again.

[Sal DeStefano]

You got it, man. Congratulations.

[Caller or Guest]

Appreciate it.

[Sal DeStefano]

So glad he told us it worked.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

Because I was like, oh, man, I hope this really.

[Adam Schafer]

So what?

[Caller or Guest]

Why?

[Sal DeStefano]

I don't know, bro.

[Justin Andrews]

Old school?

[Adam Schafer]

Is that what it is?

[Sal DeStefano]

Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

Because, I mean, most. I remember when I first brought that out to Dr. Randy kind of laughed at me. He's like, no, he's like, you just. We'll just add some hcg. You'll be fine. And then he explained to me how they don't compete or conflict with each other at all. It's like. Like you can literally have the. The high testosterone levels, and then your fertility goes down, but you take the HCG and it just brings the fertility right back up.

[Sal DeStefano]

I'm. Again, I'm not a. I'm not a doctor. Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

But from.

[Sal DeStefano]

From what I understood for interviewing these experts and looking at the data and all that stuff, you have old school hormone therapy methods, and the old school methods look like this. Oh, you want to have a baby? We'll take you off testosterone, and then we'll try Clomid, and then we'll add hcg. And it's like this process of, like, whatever. And the way that the guys and girls now do it, the hormone specialists that do it now is they're like, we're not going to touch Clomid. We're just going to go, HCG don't take you off TRT. And that works 90% of the time.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I remember testing, too. It's quick, fast. It's like within days after.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And you can see and feel it. One of the reasons why sometimes men will take HCG on TRT is also because some get. Some guys get testicular atrophy. And so just to maintain the aesthetics, they'll do it.

[Justin Andrews]

So our next caller is Alicia from Minnesota.

[Sal DeStefano]

Hi, Alicia.

[Adam Schafer]

How you doing?

[Caller or Guest]

Hi.

How are you, hard girl?

Hardcore fangirling. So this is really cool. Thank you for having me on your show. I know everyone says it, but I really do appreciate all that you guys do and all of your advice, and you guys going back and forth with each other is really entertaining as well.

So thank you.

[Sal DeStefano]

Thank you so much. You're so lovely. I appreciate it. How can we help you?

[Caller or Guest]

Okay, so I'm going to get right into it. I'm just going to kind of read what I wrote. So it was around 2014 when I became aware of, like, weight on a woman and, like, what's attractive. I started struggling with yo yo dieting and losing and regaining weight repeatedly. So over Time that kind of chipped away at my confidence. I hated taking pictures, hated looking at myself in the mirror. So Fast forward to 2024, when my boyfriend of four years, we were having dinner. And I mean this in like the best way because he said it out of love and he said it like with caring. And it wasn't like, like to diss me at all, but he was looked at my plate and he was like, man, you've been eating a lot recently. So it just kind of stuck. And then I was diet. I was battling like pre diabetic. I lost my mom to breast cancer about 15 years ago. So when he said it out of love, it really like clicked. And I was like, I really need to like do something and.

Like get.

This into motion because it was going downhill kind of fast. And so around this time, I got into Beachbody by Autumn Calabrese, this 21 day fix program. And it worked like 10 years ago. Lost weight for like three months, but then I would, you know, go back and forth. And so I did that for about a month. And this time it wasn't working, but God, luckily he was looking out for me. And I ended up finding a program based on like consistent habits, nutrition and community. And so after a year of work, I'm down from 221 pounds, 43% body fat to 179.4 pounds and 32.6% body fat.

[Adam Schafer]

Awesome. Great job.

[Caller or Guest]

Thank you. So now that I'm at like a comfortable weight, I love taking pictures. I love going out and getting pretty and everything going for date nights. I'm also helping other women and coworkers as well, kind of on their journey too. So I'm ready for my next chapter, which is building a nice round peach butt. So I ended my deficit around August. And so I'm wondering how to start this new building phase. So my question is, what's the best way to transition from a deficit to like maintenance surplus after a long term cut? Kind of like what my macro balance should be for like booty building. And is there any specific glute focused workouts you would recommend?

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, we'll take care of you, Alicia. I'm just gonna. God bless you. I really appreciate the way you communicated all that and the challenges you went through. And it sounds like you're in a great place. And I'm going to give you some of the answers. I'm going to send you a program that I think is going to help. We're going to talk about your calories and Macros. But I want to remind you, and I think this is what you're kind of figured out, is that all the. All trained the right way, all the good results, all of the, you know, I'm picking the right exercises, I'm treating my body right. It all flows from caring for yourself in a genuine way. It doesn't flow from the self hate or the, you know, where you're. Where you're criticizing yourself, our insecurities. It all comes from, I want to care for myself. I want to. I want to care for myself in a genuine way. And if you stay there, the rest of it starts to take care of itself. Okay, so I think a good program for how many days a week do you like to work out?

[Caller or Guest]

So I like five. I try to do three, but I find that when I go down to like three, even four, I'll like, skip a day, miss a day. So being consistent Monday through Friday helps me be consistent throughout the entire week.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay. Do you have our Muscle Mommy program?

[Caller or Guest]

I do not.

I have heard you guys talking about it, but I'm. I thought it was just for moms, and so I'm not a mom.

[Adam Schafer]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Sal DeStefano]

Muscle Mommy is a term that refers to.

[Adam Schafer]

I'd say half the group of women that are in the muscle group are not moms. A lot of them are young women that want to build muscle. That's really what it is.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's just the woman that wants to build. So you.

[Adam Schafer]

And you would love that group.

[Sal DeStefano]

So if I'm going to send you the link, it's Muscle Mommy. You get a trial to go in there. Here's why I like it for you. You get the program in there so you'll get the workout program. And now not everybody in there follows that program. So it really doesn't matter what program you follow. Really what it is, it's a group coaching community. So once a week, our coaches and trainers get in there and help guide and assist you through this process.

[Adam Schafer]

And we have special guests like Dr. Gabriel Lyon, who's speaking in there tonight, talking about women's hormones and helping. So it's an incredible community.

[Sal DeStefano]

So I'm gonna, I'm gonna send you that link. I think that would be great for you. You'll get some of that guidance. You'll get that program. I'll give you some general advice, but I think the guidance in there will help the most because they'll be able to modify it as you continue. Do you know where your calories are at now?

[Caller or Guest]

Yes, I did Write that down.

[Sal DeStefano]

All right.

[Caller or Guest]

So my goals, which I'm not sure. This is kind of what I gathered for myself. So my goals is to be at 165 for protein, carbs at 230, fat at 77, and then calories around 2300. But I've been averaging. Last week I was out of town for a wedding, so it kind of threw off last week. So I did. The last two weeks, it's between. My protein's been between 148 and 169, and then my carbs have been between 214 and 243. And then my fats have been kind of high between 1 or 81 and 85, averaging around 1800 to 1900 calories.

[Adam Schafer]

You're in a great place.

[Sal DeStefano]

You got it.

[Adam Schafer]

Great place.

[Caller or Guest]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, you're. What you think you should do is perfect. 22 calories. Yeah, yeah. Just do that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

Follow Muscle Mommy program. That's a great strength training program with emphasis on glutes, because women tend to want to build the glutes. And I think you'll be. You're going to be great.

[Adam Schafer]

You may want to. And I would, you know, get in there, start the program first, but you may even be able to afford. Since the goal is to build our butt now. Now we're trying to build. So maybe bumping the calories. 150 to 200 calories. So. But get in there first, start the program and run it for a week, see how you feel.

[Sal DeStefano]

And I like your starting place.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. You're in a great starting of your target. And your macros are great balance. Like, even. Even your fat. You thought, that's not high fat. That's good fat. That's a good amount.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

In fact, it's one of the number one mistakes I think my female clients that are wanting to get in shape do is they think, oh, go, go to cut the fat. And that'll work against you. So you're in a good place.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, the targets you gave, we're fine. We're perfect. The 2200 calorie, I think that's a great start. If you were averaging around 1800 calories, that's perfect. Just do that. And then your gauge is your strength. If you get. If you're getting stronger, you're probably building muscle.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay. Especially on your exercise, like hip thrusts and squats and deadlifts and stuff like that.

[Adam Schafer]

Muscle Mommy is heavily focused on butt, so you're gonna love it.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay.

[Caller or Guest]

Awesome.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Excited for you.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah, I'm excited.

[Caller or Guest]

Thank you so much.

[Sal DeStefano]

And we hope to see you in there. Yeah, we pop in every once in a while, so.

[Caller or Guest]

Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

All right.

[Sal DeStefano]

Thanks, Alicia.

[Caller or Guest]

Thank you.

[Sal DeStefano]

Love, love, love when people can go through and be honest about the journey and how they felt and whatever. And she sounds like she's in a great place. They do really, really well.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, really good.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, she did so well on her own getting there. And I mean, I love to hear when someone does their macro breakdown and I'm like, yeah, right there. You know, that's such a good.

[Sal DeStefano]

And I love the comment you made, the point you made about fat. Adam. I know what the. You could you look up online like, oh, 50 grams of fat, maybe 60 grams of fat. Most women I've ever worked with did, did not do well.

[Adam Schafer]

No.

[Sal DeStefano]

In, in the 50 or even 60s.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

Fats are essential and women tend to, in my experience, tend to need more. Yep. As a percentage, their hormones in their skin and their hair and everything else tends to do.

[Adam Schafer]

I can't tell you how many times I had a client and all we did bump fat was bump fat. 20 grams, 30 grams and then boom, boom, boom. All of a sudden just felt amazing. Hair, skin, seen results like. Yeah, I, I think there is a total misconception around how low of fat that women need to be eating and I think it does a lot of more harm than good.

[Sal DeStefano]

Absolutely. Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram. We'll see you there.

[Justin Andrews]

Mind Pump Media thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body dramatically, improve your health and energy, and master to maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over time, 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and buy by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.

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