2722: Fish Oil: Scam or Super Supplement? w/ Angelo Keely

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth

Episode 2722: Fish Oil – Scam or Super Supplement? w/ Angelo Keeley
Date: November 6, 2025
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Guest: Angelo Keeley, Founder/CEO of Kion Supplements

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Episode Overview

This episode of Mind Pump dives deep into the world of fish oil supplements, with a broader look at what sets quality supplements apart in a market filled with questionable products. The hosts are joined by Angelo Keeley, CEO of Kion, who brings transparency on supplement sourcing, manufacturing standards, efficacy, and the difference between science-backed essentials and industry hype. The conversation spans omega-3s, creatine, essential amino acids, the nuts and bolts of quality control, and why the supplement industry’s landscape makes it crucial for consumers to educate themselves.

The overall tone is deeply informative, myth-busting, and pragmatic, laced with the Mind Pump crew’s signature blend of skepticism and expertise.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Supplement Industry: Quality, Corners, and Consumer Risks

• What Sets Kion (or Any Quality Brand) Apart

  • Angelo explains his role at Kion isn’t just the business side but involves overseeing scientific formulation, manufacturing, and rigorous quality control.
  • “There’s a lot of complex chemistry…to ensure the products you’re making are exactly what you think you’re making and that they don’t have any type of adulterants or other issues in them.” (Angelo, 05:04)
  • Many companies “cut corners” on ingredient testing, particularly due to cost.

• Testing Standards & Cost Realities

  • Testing every batch, third-party validation, and repeat verification is expensive, but the only way to guarantee product purity and label accuracy.
  • Some companies test only once a year and still label their product “third-party tested.”
  • “Every time you do it, it’s hundreds of dollars, if not…tens of thousands of dollars just in quality testing.” (Angelo, 08:09)

• Adulterants and Heavy Metals, Especially in Plant-Based Supplements

  • The biggest issues found are often with plant-based powders, due to soil contamination with heavy metals.
  • “Plant-based (protein) ones are the worst…they’re gonna have a ton of lead in it. Why? Because you concentrated all these peas…and with that came all the heavy metals.” (Angelo, 06:58)

2. Two Paths in Supplement Business: “Hype” vs. “Integrity”

• The Fast-Cash vs. Quality Mindset
  • Angelo draws a line between those chasing trends, margins, and cash grabs and companies focused on data, tested formulations, and long-term value.
  • “There’s real science behind real products that actually work. And if you just make that product—and make it as best as you can possibly make it—like, truthfully communicate to people…they’re probably gonna wanna buy it.” (Angelo, 12:12)

3. The “Blind Spot” in Supplement Education

• Consumers Think ‘Same Name, Same Product’
  • Omega-3 at Kion ≠ Omega-3 at CVS: without industry education, consumers just shop on price, missing vital differences in purity, potency, and efficacy.

4. Deep Dive: Protein/Amino Acids, Anabolic Resistance, and Dosing

• Nuance Matters: Science Communication vs. Marketing Spin

  • Brands often oversimplify study results, leading to misleading claims (“6x more effective” without context).
  • “I want to have integrity and communicate nuance…but you got someone else taking a piece of what a study is and then manipulating it and saying it in a different way.” (Angelo, 16:45)

• What Makes Leucine-Enriched Essential Amino Acids Special for Older Adults

  • Muscle protein synthesis drops with age due to “anabolic resistance.” Leucine-enriched EAA blends can overcome this resistance—vital for older adults, less so for youth.
  • “As we age…our sensitivity to the essential amino acids in protein reduces.…But if you give an older adult this leucine-enriched EAA supplement, it will overcome anabolic resistance way more than whey protein will.” (Angelo, 21:54)
  • Key Study: 3g of EAAs (40% leucine) = the same muscle synthesis as 20g of whey in women in their 60s (23:46).

• Smart EAA Use for Advanced Lifters

  • Sal doses EAAs with meals for extra muscle-building: “I’ve seen some good results from doing that.” (Sal, 24:42)
  • Even high-protein eaters can benefit from EAA supplementation, especially as training intensity or age increases.

5. Omega-3s: The Science, Purity, and Why Most Fish Oil Is Junk

• What Sets a ‘Good’ Fish Oil Apart

  • Purity (less junk oil, higher EPA/DHA), concentration, and format are critical.
  • “A cheap brand will be 30–60%. …You have to take twice as much to get the same thing…they’re selling you a bunch of other junk oil.” (Angelo, 26:55)

• Why Omega-3s Are Essential Beyond General Health

  • They modulate (not suppress) inflammation, make cell membranes more flexible, and are deeply tied to cardiovascular, cognitive, and joint health.
  • “Omega-3s are precursors for not just anti-inflammatory agents, but these things called pro-resolving mediators...they help the body to literally heal faster.” (Angelo, 32:13)

• Performance: Not Just for ‘Health Nuts’

  • High doses (3–4g/day) increase strength and muscle gain in athletes/older adults, likely by boosting mTOR activity (35:27).
  • “You do that for 12 weeks and you increase your 1-Rep Maximum over the placebo by like 10–15%.” (Angelo, 35:36)

Notable Quotes

• “When you went from like 4% to 7% [Omega-3 index], that is where on average people added five years to their life and there was a 15% reduction in all-cause mortality.” (Angelo, 37:54)
• “Omega-3s and creatine—those two seem to show benefits across the board, from the brain to the organs to performance.” (Sal, 51:08)

6. Omega-3 Sourcing, Sustainability, and The Rancidity Trap

• Kion Sourcing: Anchovies off the coast of Peru (low-contaminant, sustainable, certified).
• Rancidity: Many fish oils are spoiled before you buy them. Kion uses rosemary extract and astaxanthin, which also provide health benefits and antioxidant protection (43:00).
• Rancid Test: “Every single day, when I take my Omega-3s, I chew one.” (Angelo, 41:17)

7. Industry Problems: Cheap Gummies, Creatine Contamination, Mislabeling

• Creatine: Many gummies and powders found to contain no (or far less) creatine than labeled; look for Creapure—a German creatine that’s also used by Kion (57:13).
• “There’s nothing worse than taking a supplement every day to improve your health…and realize there’s some contaminant you didn’t know about.” (Sal, 58:14)

8. Coffee: Why Kion’s Tastes “Clean” and How Coffee Quality is Often Compromised

• Single Origin, Machine Dried, Rejection of Contaminated Lots
  • Kion tracks beans from farm to cup and tests for pesticides, also catching a unique contamination case from bag reuse (70:55).
• Coffee “Tastes Clean”
  • “It’s the purest, cleanest tasting coffee I’ve ever had, and I absolutely love it.” (Adam, 67:32)

9. Supplement Selection: Only the Essentials

• Why Kion Doesn’t Chase Trends
  • “Is this a product that is worth taking every day and is going to meaningfully create benefit and has really good data behind it?” (Angelo, 62:59)
  • Essential amino acids are the company’s top seller, especially popular with older adults. Angelo argues they’re next in line with creatine and omega-3s for fundamental, daily use (73:33).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Every time you do [full testing], it’s…tens of thousands of dollars. It’s an easy thing to skip—to simply be like ‘it’s not really an issue’—and boom, you just added hundreds of thousands of dollars to your bottom line.” (Angelo, 08:09)

• “If you look at a bottle that says Omega-3, and another bottle that says Omega-3—you think you’re comparing the same thing. That’s the issue.” (Sal, 59:33)

• “There are two supplements that I think most people should take…Omega-3s and creatine. Those two seem to show benefits across the board.” (Sal, 51:08)

• “As we age…anabolic resistance develops. You have to have 40% leucine in an EAA supplement to overcome it. It has been shown to be way more potent…you give these women in their 60s 3g of EAAs…as much muscle protein synthesis as 20g of whey.” (Angelo, 21:54 and 23:46)

• “Every single day, when I take my Omega-3s, I chew one.” (Angelo, 41:17)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• Kion and Supplement Industry Practices: 03:32–11:11
• Industry Testing: Corners, Costs, and Label Lies: 05:04–09:02
• Plant-Based Protein Powders and Heavy Metals: 06:58
• Paths in Supplement Business / Company Mission: 11:11–13:11
• Consumer Blind Spot—Same Product Name, Vast Differences: 13:11–14:53
• Blind Spots in the Industry, Learning Curves: 14:53–18:00
• EAA/Protein & Anabolic Resistance for Older Adults: 18:00–25:53
• Omega-3s: Concentration, Purity & Benefits: 25:53–34:30
• Omega-3s: Inflammation, Recovery, & Athletic Performance: 34:30–39:00
• Whole Food vs. Supplement Omega Options: 39:00–40:43
• Rancidity Risks and Kion Safeguards: 40:43–43:33
• Sourcing & Sustainability: 44:43–45:35
• “Do Omega-6s Outcompete Omega-3s?” (no): 45:35–49:37
• What Supplements to Take for Longevity: 50:23–52:39
• Creatine: Cognitive, Physical, and Industry Risks: 52:39–59:10
• Coffee Quality, Testing & Sourcing: 65:12–72:06
• Kion Product Selection Philosophy: 62:59–65:12
• Top Sellers & EAAs for Aging: 73:33–74:55

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Conclusion

This episode is a masterclass in supplement literacy and critical consumerism. The key takeaway:
Not all supplements are the same, and ‘what’s on the label’ is only as good as a company’s integrity, science, and willingness to invest in quality control.
For most people, the hosts and guest agree, evidence-based staples—omega-3s, creatine, and, especially for older adults, essential amino acids—deserve a place in daily routines, but quality and dosing are everything.

Memorable takeaway from Sal (59:33):
“If you look at a bottle that says Omega-3, and another bottle that says Omega-3—you think you’re comparing the same thing. That’s the issue.”

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For more science-backed supplement education and honest discussion, see Mind Pump’s full library or visit Kion’s website.

Transcript

[Sal DeStefano]

Morning, Zoe. Got donuts.

[Angelo Keeley]

Jeff Bridges, why are you still living above our garage?

[Sal DeStefano]

Well, I dig the mattress and I want to be in a T mobile commercial like you teach me. So Dana.

[Angelo Keeley]

Oh no, I'm not really prepared. I couldn't possibly at t mobile get the new iPhone 17 Pro on them. It's designed to be the most powerful iPhone yet and has the ultimate pro camera system.

[Sal DeStefano]

Wow, impressive. Let me try. T mobile is the best place to get iPhone 17 Pro because they've got the best network. Nice.

[Angelo Keeley]

Je free.

[Adam Schafer]

You heard them.

[Angelo Keeley]

T mobile is the best place to.

[Justin Andrews]

Get the new iPhone 17 Pro on.

[Angelo Keeley]

Us with eligible traded in any condition.

[Sal DeStefano]

So what are we having for lunch?

[Angelo Keeley]

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[Justin Andrews]

Pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[Sal DeStefano]

Mind Pump. Mind Pump.

[Angelo Keeley]

With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer.

[Justin Andrews]

And Justin Andrews, you just found the.

[Sal DeStefano]

Most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode we talk about fish oil. Did you know fish oil has, well, I'm sure you know, has incredible health benefits, but it also helps with muscle building and and some studies show fat loss. We have Angelo Keeley on the podcast. He's the founder of Kion Supplements. He talked about fish oil and other supplements. This guy knows his stuff. So we learned a few things. We hope you enjoy this episode. By the way, if you want to get 20% off any of their products, including their fish oil, go to getkeon.com that's G-E-T K-I-O-N.com mindpump Now this episode is brought to you by ZBiotics. This is a pre Alcohol drink. It's a genetically modified probiotic that breaks down the negative byproducts of alcohol consumption. This is unique. There's nothing like it. Try it out. See for yourself. Go to ZBiotics.com, that's Z B I O-T-I C S dot com. Mindpump25. Use the code Mindpump25. Get yourself a discount. Also, it's Black Friday right now. Everything's 60% off. Every maps, workout program, every workout program, bundle, every guide, everything is 60% off right now. And by the way, every purchase enters you into a contest. Two people are going to get a week vacation on us at the mind Pump park city house, plus $1,000 towards our travel. Fifteen people are going to get some personal training from our trainers and coaches. Go check it out. Get the 60% off. Go to mapsfitnessproducts.com, use the code Black Friday for the discount and the entries for the contest. All right, real quick.

[Adam Schafer]

If you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking.

[Sal DeStefano]

One of our shirts, hats, mugs, or.

[Adam Schafer]

Training gear over atmypumpstore.com. i'm talking right now. Hit pause, head on over tomypumpstore.com. that's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Sal DeStefano]

Angela, welcome back to the show, man.

[Angelo Keeley]

Sal, thanks for having me. Thanks, Adam.

[Adam Schafer]

Thanks for doing, man.

[Sal DeStefano]

All right, real quick. Just the people know who you are, what you do. Who are you, what you do?

[Angelo Keeley]

What do you do? I'm the co, founder and CEO of a company called Kion Supplement company. And I guess what, what makes that different or special? I mean, well, what do you do for them?

[Sal DeStefano]

What's your main role for Kion?

[Angelo Keeley]

My main role for Kion is really to lead the company.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay.

[Angelo Keeley]

And so I'd say leading the company is everything from working with scientists to figure out, like, really what are the best products to make and why, to leading marketing and sales to figure out, you know, how are we going to communicate to people why they should buy a product? To actually working with, you know, the manufacturing team to make everything.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, since you went that way and we were talking kind of business off air, it just makes me curious, you know, as a founder, as this kind of CEO, leader of it, like, what do you not do? What is the thing that you're like, I keep my hands out of that and like, completely delegate that because either one, I suck at it or I hate it. Like, what's that thing for your business?

[Angelo Keeley]

That's a really good question. What I would say is there as the business from the very beginning, but to now as well, things get more and more complex and there's very, very technical roles throughout the business. So that could be everything from, I mean, obviously like the actual accounting. It's very technical accounting too. So I would say to some of the quality dimensions of the business, like actually setting up the very unique specs and then reviewing all those specs for every single lot.

[Adam Schafer]

Explain that.

[Sal DeStefano]

What do you mean?

[Angelo Keeley]

So, like, if you're going to manufacture a supplement, you want to have very, very specific specifications in terms of exactly what the raw ingredients are going to be, what testing they have to hit before you're even going to include them in a formula. And then you have to test them every single time they go in and you have to test after a product's made. So there's a lot of complex chemistry and. And then like that's actually applied to ensuring that the products you're making are exactly what you think you're making and that they don't have any type of adult or other issues in them.

[Adam Schafer]

How often do people cut that corner right there?

[Angelo Keeley]

Pretty, pretty, pretty often. It's pretty worry. It's pretty worrisome, honestly, in the supplement.

[Sal DeStefano]

Space all the time. It was a consumer report that just came out, another one on protein powders that came out that showed like high amounts of lead in the majority of the protein.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, but how much of that is like cutting corners and then just. And negligence or just. Man, there's just certain things are just so hard to get out. Like, is that pure? Like, when you hear something like that, does your brain go pure negligence or they really just don't give a shit? Or man, there's sometimes it's really tough to make something perfect or pure. Like, what goes through your head when you hear something like that?

[Angelo Keeley]

That's a good question, because I think it's complex and there's a lot of different reasons why it might happen. So one thing that does happen is that some raw ingredients can have adulteration issues where literally, honestly, lots of botanicals, so kind of getting away from the protein, we come back to it. But anything that's like an herbal, there's really high risk of it being mixed with other types of substances. And however it's been picked, processed, et cetera, gets a lot of chemicals and other weird gross stuff in it. That said, anything that grows out of the ground has a high chance of having a lot of heavy metals in it, especially if you concentrate it. And so that is typically why when you look at protein powders, anything that's like a plant based protein powder, vegan.

[Sal DeStefano]

Ones are the worst.

[Angelo Keeley]

They're the worst. They're gonna have a ton of lead in it. Why are you gonna lead? Well, because you took all these peas or et cetera, and then you processed it and extracted it down into this very small concentrated amount. Well, with that came all the heavy metals that were part of the original plant when it was growing from the ground, from the soil. Yeah. So it's much less likely that you're going to have lots of heavy metals in honestly, like a whey protein or beef protein, because there's simply less of it present in general in that protein source.

[Sal DeStefano]

The other part of it too is there's a few steps to go from raw ingredient, you know, getting the ingredient to the place that produces it, to the company that buys it and then bottles it or whatever. Ultimately the person that's responsible, everybody's responsible. But at the end of the day, when you're selling a product, when Kion sells a supplement, what you guys do, because I know this about you guys, is you check, double check, trickle, triple check, because you're putting your label on it and that's a big deal. And that's expensive. I think a lot of supplement companies don't want to pay the money for that.

[Angelo Keeley]

It's very expensive.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Angelo Keeley]

So there's one thing like, you know, if you're working with manufacturing and you want to get something tested, lots of companies say they just, they test the raw ingredient maybe once.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Angelo Keeley]

Or once a year, same thing. Once you actually get the finished product made, they maybe want to save money by not getting everything tested every time you want to test something sometimes or like, well, that's never really been an issue before. So we're not going to test for that. Because every time you do it, it's hundreds of dollars. If not, I mean, I look at, because I approve still every single invoice. I mean, thousands and tens and tens of thousands of dollars just in quality testing. So yeah, it's an easy thing to do. To simply be like it's not really an issue and boom, you know, you just added hundreds of thousands of dollars to your bottom line.

[Adam Schafer]

And is that like on a spectrum too? Meaning that like you could say that I get it third party tested and get the stamp of approval or the label or the thing, but then all I need to do in order to say that is once a year or once a batch get checked. And then there's other people that might go I'm testing every batch, every step of the way, multiple times. Like is, is it on a spectrum like that?

[Angelo Keeley]

It is on a spectrum like that. Like you could say third party tested. So like not just what the manufacturer tested for, but I go out and I send it out and get my own testing done for it. But I only do that once a year. And then I could tell you I do third party testing versus no, I actually do consistent third party testing to always validate from a source that's totally unattached from making this product to verify if it really does hit spec and it really doesn't have any type these other issues, contaminants.

[Adam Schafer]

And so when, since you are doing it at that level, how often do you catch something that could have easily slid by if you would have just done the once a year type testing? Like, is it often that you have to send back a batch or you go like, oh, that's not gonna pass.

[Angelo Keeley]

Like, is it rare as you develop in the business? So I'd say for us, we've been around now we're just talking about over eight years and you are buying more and more raw ingredients and you're manufacturing more and more and you get known to be like the neurotic sticklers that constantly cause problems and that reject product, it happens less because when you have partners that have to basically accept a return that's worth a hundred thousand or hundreds of thousands of dollars, they don't. Everyone makes sure that they do their job.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, I'm assuming that's on the contract.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. And again, that's another thing too where it's like even on that contract side, the attention to detail. Another thing I don't do write our contracts, but I make sure we hire the best attorneys that we have. A director of finance and admin that critiques what the attorneys say and then I critique it and the director of ops critiques it. We just. My responsibility more than anything is to hire really good people, create really good systems, keep everyone connected and integrated to where we can deliver.

[Sal DeStefano]

There seems to be two paths. One of them being more popular with supplement companies where I'll explain the two paths. One path is you go with the boring, tried and true data backed. Like there's lots of data on these things, they actually work. And we're gonna test everything 100 times. And then there's this other side which is like we're gonna go exotic and weird and not test anything and create big margins. And that's how we're gonna try and make our money. And if we stick around for three years, it's okay. Why did you guys choose to go the boring, hard route?

[Angelo Keeley]

I think it really just comes down to like, what your style in life is and what your character is. I believe that the good things in my life have come from dedication. Like, even things where maybe I had like a lot of talent and skill to start with and I was pretty good at it. If I didn't like practice that thing every day, I didn't really get any better from it. And so I think the same thing for me is true in business that like, I want to be part of something where I put the time and the energy in every day and it consistently gets better. I don't want to just be part of this kind of like momentary hype in my life. Like, I want to be part. I want to feel like I'm building. I want to feel like I'm getting healthier, like I'm building more wealth for my family, like I'm making meaningful things in the world. And so I think like that, that second version that you gave the picture of, I mean, I think that there's. You basically gotta, you gotta either misrepresent things so much in the short term to where you just can make enough cash and you just extract all the money out of the business, or you have to even, I'd say, hype up the idea to venture capital people or to investors or someone else. I've got this really cool cutting edge thing, this X thing with the new breakthrough science that has like one paper, you know, but it doesn't matter as long as I can hustle that, sell it, that venture capital group into giving me money. Then suddenly I got cash flow to do it. And then all together, we're all going to just hustle the next, you know, private equity group. And so you just, you know, you play that game and it's like, man, I just, I don't even, I just, I don't think I even underst. I don't even get it. Like, that sounds so stressful and not like, meaningful to me versus, like there is real science behind real products that actually work. And if you just make that product, make it as best as you can possibly make it, like truthfully communicate to people about what it will do. Don't mislead them. Like, just tell them really what it is. If it really is a really good thing and it. And you can actually explain how it works, they're probably gonna wanna buy it. And then like, that's, that's like A meaningful, real living in life. That's not like a. A hustle game.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, well, you just said something that you glossed over, but I think I want to focus on that because there's actually a big, in my opinion, a bigger opportunity in what you guys are doing, because the public, I think informing the public is important around this. But the public may look at, let's say, an Omega 3 supplement from CVS or from Walmart, and then they'll look at Omega 3 product from Kion, and without education at the supplement industry and how things can, like, one thing can say Omega three, the other thing can say Omega three. But this, there's a big difference. Without the education, they're just. It's like they're comparing the same iPhone in two different stores. So the cheaper one is the one that I'm going to get. So the opportunity for someone like you, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you looked at this and said there's a huge opportunity here where we could find. Focus on the products that have the data, but we can beat everybody with quality, we can beat everybody with education so that when they get what works, they're getting the stuff that actually works. They're not just getting what it says on a bottle that, let's say Walmart is selling. Would you say that's correct?

[Angelo Keeley]

I think you've got it. The only thing, only maybe slight correction to make is, I don't know that I was that savvy that I was like, here's the really smart opportunity. It was more like, wow, these products are really good. These are awesome. Let's make them really well and. And turn that into a business. And then I think in the process, then realize, okay, the challenge and the opportunity is to really educate people, because people don't know and they don't get it, they're gonna see just perfect example, Kion Omega 3 CVS, Omega 3. This one's much cheaper. Why, like, why would I do that? And so that is. That's the opportunity and the challenge. And I didn't see it that clearly, but that is what has emerged from, I think, more just a general passion to want to make legitimate products and help people.

[Adam Schafer]

What would you say was your greatest blind spot then? Since you weren't this savant when you started and had this, like, the whole vision, I imagine that you kind of ran at it. And then as you began building, what would you say was your first big blind spot that you had, like an aha moment or realized, like, oh, Shit, this is going to be a little harder than I thought or I didn't know I should have been doing these things. Like what. Do you remember what the first one was?

[Angelo Keeley]

I think it actually is right at the heart of what we're talking about and that is the amount of brands particularly like. So we're pretty direct to consumer focus. We sell through our website, we sell through Amazon and again that's largely been because if you do it that way you can make a way higher quality supplement and be able to still make it relatively affordable because there's less people involved in all the margins because it costs a lot of money. Not just do these quality testing but to get the quality of the raw ingredients. Manufacturing hire really good people, pay them a good wage, just cost more money. So I think what I didn't realize was the amount, how all the, how so many other brands in this space were going to making such disingenuous claims and maybe even claims that are very similar to a claim that I want to make about the product. Like I want to say essential amino acids, right, if they're leucine enriched, can stimulate protein synthesis up to six times as much or increase, you know, the EAA plasma level six times more than whey protein gram for gram in a group of women in their 60s if it's Leucine enriched Now I just said like so much, right. But all that nuance is actually important. Essential amino acids are not six times as impactful for whey for a 20 year old. That is like it's just completely false. Not true. There are brands out there that will say that though. So I'm.

[Adam Schafer]

They can attach it to that exact.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, they'll just say, they'll just misrepresent it. Right. So I'm in a space where I want to be out there and I want to have integrity and I want to communicate nuance and I want to make sure that we're actually saying what the product really does. But you've got someone else taking a piece of what a study is and then manipulating it and saying it in a different way. So it's like how do you. I don't want to get in the boat though, like where I'm going to go out and be dishonest or manipulate the story. Like I still want to have that integrity and actually say the nuance. Right. And I think that I just didn't realize like how much that's really hard. Yeah, it's like, it's really like it's, it's not how to win in that game when you're not willing to like play by some of the rules that you don't think are I think breaking the rules, honestly.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, it's also hard because you're in especially today, you're so limited with the time that you have to explain that even you just saying that right now, like I'm super interested. I'm like, okay, actually why don't you explain that a little bit to everybody so they understand why would it be for a 60 year old woman six times more impactful than a 20 year old, like that makes me go right away, oh, tell me more. But you, you know, in Instagram you got about eight seconds to deliver that message and it's not happening. They're going to hear the six times more impactful and that's quicker, easier to get you.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's why he does long form podcasts. Right. This is how you can explain it.

[Adam Schafer]

But let's, let's talk about that. I'm actually really curious to explain why that would, why that would be more six times more impactful for a six year old woman and not so for a 20 year old young men.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. So without us, like because we, I last was on the show, we had a deep dive into protein amino acids. So I won't like rehash everything, but I think the, the quick summary of how essential amino acids work in protein and in supplements is the more concentrated amount of essential amino acids that you get into your blood at once directly corresponds to how much of a spike of muscle protein synthesis occurs. And so a concentrated protein powder like a whey protein because it's more easily digested than say like a piece of steak. And because there is so there's some uniqueness to actually the composition of the essential amino acids in it too, it stimulates more muscle protein synthesis gram for gram than the steak. And then the simplest way of thinking about it is like it's just more bioavailable that protein powder can be digested and get into your blood more quickly and thus create this spike. So for the same reason, essential amino acids in a free form supplement are more potent than like a whey protein powder. And the reason for that is because those essential amino acids in a supplement don't have any of the non essential amino acids which in this general conversation are inactive. They don't actually stim. The non essential amino acids don't stimulate any more muscle protein synthesis. The essential amino acids stimulate all of it from, I'm saying from a purely like nutritive standpoint if you go out and you do resistance training, that obviously is going to stimulate, Right. But just from the food that you eat, it's the essential amino acids. So whey protein is about 45% essential amino acids. A free form essential amino acid supplement is 100%. So it's only the stimulatory thing. So studies in young adults show that it's two to three times as stimulatory as whey protein.

[Sal DeStefano]

Still more.

[Angelo Keeley]

Still more, but more for obvious reasons. Like one is it's twice the amount of the essential amino acids, gram for gram. And then the further point is it is more bioavailable, it requires even less digestion, it gets in the blood even more quickly. Right.

[Sal DeStefano]

So the other thing too is there's a theory around this which you have essential amino acids, meaning you need to consume them. The body seems to have developed this seems to be a signal to the body that we're getting the ones that we need. So we can really stimulate protein synthesis. In other words, it measures the essentials more than it does the non essentials for muscle protein synthesis. It's like a signal. It's like leucine in particular.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, but explain to me why that's different for the 60 year old woman though.

[Angelo Keeley]

So now here's how we get to the 60 year old woman. So as we age, as you guys are familiar with, I'm sure coaching so many people, there's this thing called anabolic resistance that develops. And anabolic resistance actually occurs in different contexts. It's typically any type of stress physiology. So that can be also during caloric restriction. That's why it's harder to put on muscle sometimes during caloric restriction without specific training intervention. And protein and essential amino acids, insulin resistance can do this and hormones, et cetera. So aging is a stress physiology. As we get older, our body's ability to digest protein slightly decreases. It's actually not as significant as some people say. But what does happen is our sensitivity to the essential amino acids in protein reduces. The basic idea is that like when we eat protein, our body doesn't read those essential amino acids in the way that Sal was just saying to the same degree and say like, oh yeah, like this is great. Now we can, we can break down some of the old proteins and rebuild new ones. And it makes sense generally, right. As you're getting older, the prioritization of your body is not to like remain.

[Adam Schafer]

It's like jacked.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, let's focus on eyesight here.

[Angelo Keeley]

You know, you get it. So that's it but so what's been studied though over the last 20 years is well, what if you add leucine to a protein, right. And so this is part of why if you add even just leucine to a whey protein powder, you take it, it's about 25% typically is like the amount of leucine that makes up the, the essential amino acid profile in whey. If you jack that up to 40%, it's significantly more stimulatory of mps. And this is true for older adults. So in a very similar way, if you take an essential amino acid supplement and you ensure that it's got 40% so not just like a 25% which there are lots of good essential amino acid supplements out there that are more targeted to like young athletes etc. You know, endurance athletes, people who want to get you know, a pro, a quote protein source in right before they train that are not this 40%. But if you're really trying to target helping someone overcome anabolic resistance from aging, you have to have 40% in the essential amino acid supplement. And when you do that, it has been shown to be way more potent than just like a regular protein powder that does not have that enhanced amount of leucine. So in these studies there's one really famous one, but there's a few that are kind of, you know, in line of each other that show but there's one really famous one where they gave these women in their 60s 3 grams of essential amino acids, 40% of which was leucine. And it stimulated as much muscle protein synthesis as 20 grams of whey. So that is the study that shows this over six times. Yeah. And there is a lot of other good data from many other studies and mechanistic studies that show that it makes sense. If you give, if you give an older adult this leucine enriched essential amino acid supplement, it's going to overcome anabolic resistance way more than like a whey protein will.

[Sal DeStefano]

To put it differently, it's more costly for a 60 year old to build muscle than it is for a 20 year old. Sure. So, so the body is let, it's more, it's less likely to be like let's pack on a bunch of muscle. And when the, when the body looks at protein, it measures leucine branch amino acids and the essentials as how much muscle are we going to grow right now? And it just measures those because those tell it a lot in nature. In nature, when you eat a protein that's high in leucine, you're looking at a very good quality protein typically. So that's probably what's, what's happening by the way, the way I've used your essential amino acids and I know I want to talk to you about the Omega 3s, I want to circle back to that, but because you're getting old. Yeah, no, is I've used it in combination with food to spike the essential amino acid content of what I'm consuming to increase the concentration of essential amino acids. And I've seen some good results from doing that.

[Angelo Keeley]

That's a very savvy use case for it.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, yeah. So I eat a high protein diet anyway. I mean, 200 to 220 grams anyway. And so what I'll do is with my meal, I'll add a scoop of my. Of your essential amino acids to my water, drink that with my meal. And I've just increased the leucine content, the essential amino acid content of what I'm consuming. And I've seen a difference.

[Adam Schafer]

Now previously we believe that to be negligible. Right. Previously we believe that if you hit your, you know, upper limits of protein, throwing that on top of it would be worthless. But you're saying it's not.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, and I don't think it's not. I think the more you strength train, the more muscle mass you have, the more you're trying to push it. I think it makes a difference. Bodybuilders have known this for a long time where they push protein intakes to well beyond the 1 gram per pound of body weight and they notice difference. So I've definitely noticed from adding them to my meals. And I've been doing that ever since we had you on the show, in fact. And I better recovery better. Looks like I'm building more muscle, which at this point is, you know, I can tell because it's been doing this for so long. So it's definitely made a difference. Yeah. Let's talk about the omega threes. Let's go back to that. What makes yours better? What's the difference? I see one bottle here, one bottle there. They both say omega threes. What makes one good? What makes one not so good.

[Angelo Keeley]

So I'll give, I mean, I guess just like the really quick summary to that. Although I think on some level people need to be helpful if people even just understood what omega threes are. But the simplest, the simplest answer is purity and concentration and the format. So when you actually buy a high quality Omega 3 supplement, which Kion is it's of the highest quality, you can get the Actual proportion of the total amount of the omega 3s that you're getting in it are a much greater proportion of the total oil you're getting. Whereas like a cheap cv, like. So, for example, if you were to add up the, the EPA and DHA, which is the active omega 3s in Kion Omega, and divide that by the total amount of fat in it and the total amount of the Omega 3s that are available, it's going to be 80%. And honestly, our CFAs will show higher. They'll show like 83, 84, but we say slightly lower on the label to make sure it always hit that claim. But a cheap brand will be 30 to 60%.

[Sal DeStefano]

You'd have to take twice as much to get the same thing.

[Angelo Keeley]

You have to get twice as much. So you think you're getting this capsule, right? That's like, oh, I'm taking my omegas. But if you actually look at the amount of the active ingredient, it's very low in terms of the total oil. And what else is all that other oil?

[Adam Schafer]

What else is there?

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. And so they're selling you a bunch of other junk oil.

[Sal DeStefano]

Wow. And now you're not required to list how much epa, DHA is in there, correct?

[Angelo Keeley]

They do. They will. They list. Yeah. If you look at any something bottle you'll actually see and you can do the math yourself. So you can, you can add the EPA and the DHA milligrams divided by the total amount of the fish oil that's in it and you can very quickly see what about on average 30.

[Adam Schafer]

That's a huge difference.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh yeah. What about. And I could tell a difference. Fish oil for me or Omega 3. I have lowered inflammation. I just. Let's talk about that for a second. How they affect inflammation. Why do people notice? Why do I notice when I take a high quality omega 3 fatty acid? I'm just less stiff. Just overall, what's happening.

[Angelo Keeley]

So lots going on. So maybe like just a quick breakdown so everyone kind of even understands what the omega 3 is. So omega 3 is one type of a fatty acid. Fatty acids are all the little different types of like, we'll just call them like micro fats. They're, they're, they're, they truly are defined as fatty acids that go into making oils or fats. So when you have butter or lard or olive oil or any of these types of things, those are made up of fatty acids.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay.

[Angelo Keeley]

And there's a few different types of these. There are saturated fats, which people are. I'm sure. You've heard these terms saturated fats, monosaturated fats, polyunsaturated fats. And I promise you, it's gonna be worth going down this slight little science lesson for everyone. So, like, a saturated fat, literally, without going too down the science realm, like, it only has these single carbon bonds, and so they actually stack really well and they get really tight together. And so that's why saturated fat congeals at room temperature. So that's why, like butter lard is like solid. Right? A monounsaturated fat has at least one of these double carbon bonds. And that's what you'll find in like, olive oil. Olive oil is made up of oleic acid, primarily. And then there's this other thing called polyunsaturated fats where there's more than one double carbon bond. And so that would be things like omega sixes. So that's like, that's typically wax, where it goes more into, you get from like seed oils, but from Omega 3s, all these different types of oils. And in all of these, a key difference you can see and understand is at which point it becomes solid. So saturated fat's solid at room temperature. You know, something like an olive oil, you have to get a little bit cooler. You go all the way down to something like an Omega 3, which is a specific type of this polyunsaturated fat. You have to go like negative 50 degrees to get it to go solid. And that's because of literally its chemical structure. It's got all these more bones bonds in it, and it. And it becomes more kinked and flexible. And what happens is when we eat fats, we don't just use them for energy. They actually go into making up our cell walls. So the simplest way of thinking about it is your red blood cells literally are made up of the fats that you eat. So if you eat, you know, a lot of saturated fats, if you eat a lot of omega 6 fats, if you eat a lot more omega 3 fats, whatever those proportions are, those are going to go into making up your red blood cell barriers, the walls of them. And when you have more of these very flexible types of fats, the omega 3s that go, that you consume, and they actually go into making your. Your, your red blood cells, your red blood cells literally are more flexible. And so someone who does not consume very much omega 3s in their diet is going to have, in the very low single digits, 1, 2, 3, maybe 4% of their red blood cell is actually made up of this omega 3 fatty acid. If you consume more and more, you get up into the 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 range, then there are these amazing health outcomes that emerge. Things like 15% reduction in all cause mortality, 15% reduction in cardiovascular risk, in cancer risk, in dementia, and all of these things. And so part of it comes from this kind of key aspect of literally your blood cells, all the cells in your body are made up of this fat that's more flexible. But another big component of it is that these omega 3s basically are precursors for not just anti inflammatory agents, but actually these things called pro resolving mediators. And these pro resolving mediators, a way of thinking about inflammation. Sorry, I've been talking for a long time. Just keep going. Okay. Yeah, so just to kind of like break down what, you know, how inflammation works. Inflammation is not a, it's not a bad thing. Like if you guys have been athletes, right? I mean it's like you twist your ankle and it gets swollen. Like that inflammation response is actually your body trying to heal. It's sending a bunch of attention there and unique molecules are being generated to try to heal that spot. And that's a good thing. Actually. You want that to happen. The issue with inflammation in our current world is that our diets have moved from, you know, as much of a whole food diet to something with a lot more processed foods in it. So you, you over consume these calories, you eat tons of processed sugars, processed fats, et cetera. And all of those basically injure and stimulate the body in a way where you get this kind of low grade chronic inflammation. Which personally I used to think was bs. I was like, ah, chronic low grade inflammation. This must be, you know, it's like just like woo woo or something. It's not, it's like a very real thing that we've been able to measure through. You can do blood tests on it, you'd like see Reactive Protein Interleukin 6. Like you can actually measure the amount of inflammation, low grade, that's occurring in someone's body. And so similar to, you know, like if you get injured on your ankle, you could choose to take an ibuprofen. And if you wanted to, what the ibuprofen would do is it would actually just like stop the process. It wouldn't heal the process, it would stop the process. The way that Omega 3s work is that they're the precursors of these things called pro resolving mediators. And they don't just stop the process, they actually enhance and speed up the process. So they help the body to literally heal faster. So they have this very unique relationship with inflammation that's totally different than maybe what our typical experience of dealing with inflammation is.

[Adam Schafer]

Almost like an adaptogen.

[Sal DeStefano]

Well, it's more. It modulates the process.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

In this episode is Angelo Keeley, the founder of Kion. If you want to go check out their supplements, which you should, they're some of the best in the world. Get yourself 20% off. Go to getkion.com that's G-E-T-K-I-O-N.com mindpump Back to the show, just to back you up, data on very powerful anti inflammatory injections like corticosteroids, let's say, show increased rate of joint destruction. Athletes that consistently use NSAIDs have higher rates of injury, lower rates of muscle building and adaptation because it doesn't modulate the process, it stops the process. And you need that process not just for healing from an injury, but also from adapting to any stress, including exercise. Omega 3s modulate the process. And I'd love to point to some studies that seem to suggest that athletes who use omega 3s actually adapt better to exercise too. They have better performance outcomes and build more muscle. Can you, can you speak to that a little bit? Because I think that's fascinating.

[Angelo Keeley]

That is true as well. I would just highlight the studies that show that athletes adapt better to omega 3 intake. It is pretty high doses.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yes.

[Angelo Keeley]

So I would just name like, you know, like typical dose for someone to be like a gram a day. That's like kind of the standard dose I'd recommend someone takes. If you are an athlete who's wanting to get better performance from it or you're an older adult because the same thing is actually true. The thing we were talking about earlier with essential amino acids and anabolic resistance, omega 3s can also help overcome some of this anabolic resistance. And so basically what happens is as the Omega 3s make up more and more of the cells in your muscle, they assist the process of stimulating mtor. And we don't understand exactly why it happens, but the outcomes are very clear where literally you get like, you know, you give these athletes, this is young as well as older adults. It's been shown to be true in both that you give them these higher doses, 3.5 to 4 grams a day.

[Sal DeStefano]

Which is not that much.

[Angelo Keeley]

It's not that much. I'm not saying that's a crazy amount. I'm just, I just want to highlight it.

[Sal DeStefano]

I've taken as high as 6 and 8 grams myself.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. So you do that for 12 weeks and you increase your one rep maximum over the placebo by like 10 to 15%.

[Sal DeStefano]

Build more muscle.

[Angelo Keeley]

So you build more muscle. So it's, it's legit. Like it really, you really do build more.

[Adam Schafer]

I want to go back to something you said earlier because I want to hear what the, where the tipping point is. You mentioned that like if you're taking these omega 3 or typically a person is there, makes up like 3, 4, 5% of the red blood cells, the lining or whatever like that. And then once we get to a certain point, a certain percentage, 9, 10, 12, whatever it is, you start to see these incredible outcomes and health benefits. Where is the tipping point and where do you. So I'm assuming based on what you said, the average person who doesn't take these or just kind of is in like low single digits, 2, 3% of the wall, cell wall is made up of this. And then people that take it are probably north of 8, 9, 10. Where, where's the tipping point of where the, the all these great benefits come from?

[Angelo Keeley]

So it's actually progressive. There's not like one set tipping point. So any amount more is better. That said, what the studies have really shown, so what I would say too is omegas going back to like you know, supplements that have been studied a lot. Omega 3s have been studied. Omega 3s, creatine, essential amino acids, whey protein, like these are the most studied supplements.

[Sal DeStefano]

The majority of studies that are double blind, placebo, controlled on supplements are done.

[Angelo Keeley]

On that are done on that.

[Sal DeStefano]

80% of probably all studies are done on the ones you just mentioned.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yes. And you have an immense amount of epidemiological, long term observational studies, meaning looking at people over 15 years and measuring what their omega 3 index was, how much omega is in their blood, omega 3s are in their blood, but also what their eating behaviors are, et cetera. Like I mean a lot of studies. So it's not only these random controlled trials, it's also looking at groups of people over a long time. So there's a lot of data. And so basically that's where these, what we're talking about right now is coming more from those observational studies because you have to measure people's blood over a long term and then see what happens to them. Got it, got it. And so basically is the people that went from 4% to 7%, that's where they do the cutoff in the studies. But what I would say is there was benefit at 6%, there was benefit at 5%. But when you went from like 4% to 7%, that is where on average people added five years to their life and there was a 15% reduction in all cause mortality. Wow.

[Sal DeStefano]

Talk about the reduction in cancer risk alone.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, I mean, it's similar. It's like a 15% reduction, I would say any of these diseases that just to highlight though, this is not like you start taking it once you get cancer. This is like these are nutrition choices that also I would just name to. You could do this entirely through eating fish. You'd be eating a lot of servings of fish, which we can get into. But through eating fish or through taking some type of omega 3 supplementation over the long term, you end up getting these results where it's like a 15% reduction in basically any disease that seems to be related to inflammation, which is also dementia. I mean, it's so broad, it's unbelievable.

[Sal DeStefano]

Here's what's cool. Here's what's interesting about this. Usually when we're talking about supplements, I would say whole food sources are better. Just go with whole food. If you can't do that, use a supplement. Here's where I've heard the argument and I think I agree with it, that supplementing with omega 3s is probably the better option. And it has to do with how difficult it is to get fish that isn't.

[Adam Schafer]

Right.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah. Contaminated or farmed or unless you're eating sardines, which I talk about all the time, and a lot of people, I don't want to eat sardines because that's a. You know, it doesn't seem to have a lot of heavy metals. It's like, it's actually probably better just to supplement with the Omega 3s for. Just because of those. In the context of finding the right fish, getting it clean. It's not farmed, it's wild and all that stuff.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. I think if you want to get in these higher levels of EPA and DHA, which are the two main Omega 3s that are the really the important ones, you need to be eating a lot of sardines.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Angelo Keeley]

If you want to be avoiding heavy metals.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's right.

[Angelo Keeley]

Because basically, just to clarify too, this is not coming from all fish. This is from fatty fish. You need the fat and fish you're not gonna give a can of tuna is not gonna give it to you. Yeah, yeah. We're talking like salmon, mackerel or anchovies or. Yeah. So it's like it's gotta eat A lot of fatty fish. So I would say if you ate tons of canned sardines, like, that is kind of an option. But we're talking a lot, a lot of sardines. You know, I think on this level of, like, if you wanna get the equivalent of like a gram a day of EPA and dha, you'd basically be wanting to eat four servings of those sardines per week.

[Sal DeStefano]

Per week.

[Angelo Keeley]

Per week.

[Adam Schafer]

Four per week. I think you would say per day. Not per day.

[Angelo Keeley]

Not per day. But I would say even four servings.

[Adam Schafer]

Of sardines, that's probably more than what you do.

[Sal DeStefano]

Nobody does that.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm just saying you probably don't eat that and you eat more sardines than anybody else.

[Sal DeStefano]

I go through bouts of doing it because I'll get sick of them myself.

[Angelo Keeley]

And I would just say that's for the gram. If you want to take 3 grams a day, and I personally choose. I'm not saying everyone else should do this, but I personally choose to take three grams per day. I mean, that would be three times that amount. There'd be like 12 servings of sardines a week. And that's not happening. It's not happening.

[Sal DeStefano]

Something else that was revealing to me a while ago. I learned this a long time ago. I worked with someone who was very. She was just ahead of the curve when it came to stuff like this. And I was taking, you know, omega 3s, and she said, hey, Sal, open that capsule and smell it. And she goes, it's rancid. These are food. It's food. It goes bad. And so a lot of these companies are selling you bad, rancid fish oil, which isn't doing what you think it's doing. How do you ensure it's not going bad? Like, what is that? Yeah. What's like poking a hole in each.

[Adam Schafer]

One and finding out for yourself?

[Angelo Keeley]

Well, something that I do do, and I take this as my personal responsibility, is every single day, when I take my Omega 3s, I chew one.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, you do.

[Angelo Keeley]

I literally do it every single day. And it's just like a habit that I built, like, a long time ago. But not saying that. That's our full, complete quality testing. I think what you do is, I mean, freeze them.

[Adam Schafer]

Is that.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, no, no. We're talking about bad. We're talking about a wet.

[Adam Schafer]

No, but I mean.

[Angelo Keeley]

But you do not need to freeze them.

[Adam Schafer]

But if you buy them and you freeze them right away. So you're probably supplementing.

[Angelo Keeley]

No, I would just say, like, so a quality if you choose one of the highest quality brands, Keon Omega, it has no significant level of oxidation. After two years of manufacturing, you do not have to. And I'm saying this is stored.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, that's just.

[Sal DeStefano]

No, I'm talking about supplement companies that sell bad already.

[Adam Schafer]

No, I get it. But I also, I mean it could also go bad.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

So I thought they have a long shelf life.

[Sal DeStefano]

If they're produced well.

[Angelo Keeley]

If they're produced well. And so it really comes down to.

[Adam Schafer]

So freezing them was a waste of time.

[Sal DeStefano]

I was freezing the fish burps. That's why I had you freeze them.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, but even that you don't get fish burps with a really high quality fish oil. So I mean, look, I chew the capsule, it doesn't taste like fish. It's not that fishy. No, no. But really what it comes down to is a few things. I mean, the fish burp thing is going to come down to that kind of concentration and purity issue we talked about earlier. If 70% of the thing you're eating is like junk fish oil, it's not even like the really concentrated EPA and dha. Yeah, it's going to smell like nasty.

[Sal DeStefano]

Interesting.

[Angelo Keeley]

But also there's a question around. This is another thing where people like to cut costs is the preservatives that you use. So for example, we choose to use organic rosemary extract and astaxanthink. And astaxanthin is actually something that comes with fish itself. It's what keeps salmon fresher, longer and gives it that.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's also good for you.

[Angelo Keeley]

It's also good.

[Sal DeStefano]

Your preservatives are good for you.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, our preservatives are actually good for you. But we put enough in to where they simply. There's like no risk of the oxidation anytime within the expiration window, but even beyond that. So really the issue is like getting it really high concentration, very good purity from the very beginning, not buying junk oil to begin with and then using really high quality preservatives. And if you do that, you will not have rancid fish oil like in. I mean, I look at the tests all the time. There's bro. There's not oxidation.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, no. And it's crazy because I would, I'll say this. In the supplement industry, the supplements that have the most data where people are the most aware. Like if you say omega three, but today. Right. Maybe not 15 years ago, but today if I say, hey, omega three, people say, oh yeah, that's a good supplement to take everybody's nose they see the data, doctors recommend it. When you have that much awareness and that big, a large of a competitive market, the odds that you're going to get a product that is not great is higher because you have so many companies now trying to compete. And what they're trying to compete is over is cash is money. So when they do Consumer Reports on testing and they test 15 omega 3s, what you'll find is 13 are going to have problems and two maybe if you're lucky. I've seen Consumer Reports where none come back.

[Angelo Keeley]

That's a really good point and I think a helpful way to have people understand where and why and how the risk develops. Because just that you're saying like everyone's saying it's good, but no one really knows exactly why it's good. So then there's lots of, you know, business people out there maybe don't have the best interest at heart. They're just, you know, taking advantage of the marketing hype versus actually trying to make something great.

[Sal DeStefano]

Totally. Where do you source yours? Is it sardines? Krill? Where are you getting?

[Angelo Keeley]

It's coming from anchovies off the coast of Peru.

[Sal DeStefano]

Oh, wow.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. And the reason for that is there's a few things. One is the, yeah, these smaller fish have a much lower risk of any type of heavy metals.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Angelo Keeley]

But also there's certain regions of the world that have the way that ocean currents work, etc. There's a lot lower risk of pollution reaching them. And then on top of that, in this region there's better opportunities to do more sustainable fishing. So for example, there are certain certifications that you can get to ensure that you're not doing really terrible like exploitive fishing practices. And it's, it's more available from this region. So we're able to get the highest quality fish that doesn't have a bunch of contaminants in it. And that on top of that as well is like not gonna create longer term ecological problems for us.

[Adam Schafer]

So I have a question to ask about sixes and nines.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And I'm terrible, not like sour. I can remember the exact study and, and draw back to it. So I'm gonna do my best. But I, I remember reading that if you were eating like in a calorie surplus in a high saturated fat diet, so a lot of nines. Right. And sixes that the sixes and nines out compete the three. So even if I were to take a fish oil that the cell wouldn't get it and that would outcompete it. Is that true?

[Angelo Keeley]

And yes, this is a good question. So just to clarify too, so saturated fats are separate from these omega 9s and these omega 6s. Okay. So saturated fats are their own thing. Omega 9s and omega sixes are types of these polyunsaturated fats.

[Adam Schafer]

Got it.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. So there used to be this idea that you wanted to have a good ratio of omega 6 to omega 3.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Angelo Keeley]

And that is a mechanistic understanding. And what I mean by mechanistic is there's all different types of studies. Like we were saying earlier, you could observe populations over a long time and see what they eat and see what happens to them.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Angelo Keeley]

Or you could do rct, double blind placebo study and like give these two different groups, you know, these different things and see what happens. Or you can do in vitro where you see what happens in a cell. Or there's these kind of mechanistic studies, explanations where you're just trying to understand what's going on that's more related to this kind of cell type study. Okay. And so what we know is there's actually two essential fatty acids and they're not the ones we've been talking about. One is this linoleic acid and it's an omega 6. And then there's another omega 3, that's the alpha linolenic acid, ala, that's an omega 3. So there's an omega 6 and omega 3. And it is true that those two essential fatty acids compete in the same enzymatic process. The Omega 6, the linoleic acid wants to make, for it to be able to make arachidonic acid, which is actually more common in meats and things like that. And it's good for you. It does things. It's gotten a bad rap. It's not all bad, actually. Can do some good things. And ala for it to convert into EPA and DHA, what this whole conversation about omega 3s has really been about, they compete and for the same enzymatic process. So if you have A bunch more omega 6 in this linoleic acid, then the ALA can't do its thing to convert into EPA and DHA.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right.

[Angelo Keeley]

But here's the deal. ALA only converts at like 2 to 4% to EPA and DHA. And that's why EPA and DHA is fundamentally a conditionally essential amino acid. So it's not truly essential. Like your body essential just means your body cannot make it.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's right.

[Angelo Keeley]

It doesn't mean that it's what's most Important for your body. It doesn't mean like a bunch of other things. But like as we've been talking about, if you actually consume these way higher amounts of EPA and dha, you get this incredible set of benefits. There is no way that you're gonna consume enough ALA to convert it into that EPA and dha.

[Sal DeStefano]

And it doesn't matter with the enzymatic process anyway because you're taking it already as EPA dha.

[Angelo Keeley]

Well, so that's the point. I think what the point is like you're not gonna, and I think this is an advocate for people saying you don't need to eat fish or get them from marine sources like just eat chia or flaxseed oil which are high in this. Albert. But here's the deal. It's not going to convert into the EPA and dha. So the big thing is if you want to have these more flexible red blood cells, if you want to have way more of these pro resolving mediators that are going to resolve all this inflammation in your body, if you want to have these benefits from strength gains and if you're older, hypertrophy as well from omega intake, you have to take DHA and EPA directly. It is not going to come from Ala. So this whole argument of the Omega 6, Omega 3 balance, it really, it's, it's like an old school way of trying to think and understand, think about and understand what's going on and what we need. That's really not relevant.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm so glad you cleared that up because I know I've seen people use that, that study or that and as a way to shit on omegas. As if you eat this much saturated fat in your diet anyways and most Americans eat this much, you're basically flushing your omegas down the toilet.

[Sal DeStefano]

Omega 9 to 6. But, but to put it plainly, it doesn't, it doesn't matter that the enzymatic process isn't going to happen because it's coming pure already as, as the dha.

[Angelo Keeley]

And you, bottom line, you need to take in the EPA regardless.

[Sal DeStefano]

Right?

[Angelo Keeley]

You need, you like you either need to eat fatty fish multiple times a week or you need to take a daily EPA and DHA supplement if you want to have more of your red blood cells be made of this thing and avoid these diseases.

[Sal DeStefano]

I'll say this Angela, and I'd love your opinion on this, but just, just my strong opinion based on the data and there's a lot of data to support this, there are two supplements that I think most people should take And I say most because there's always, you know, variances out there. And, you know, I can't, I can't speak for everybody, but most people from a longevity perspective. And I mean, not just longevity, but health span, because longevity is how long you stay alive, but I mean how long you stay healthy. There's really two supplements that have a profound impact. Omega 3s, high quality ones, and creatine. Those two seem to show benefits across the board, from the brain to the organs to performance to pretty much everything.

[Angelo Keeley]

Would you say they're at the top of my list? Okay, definitely.

[Sal DeStefano]

Okay, let's talk about creatine for a second, because I love talking about creatine. Years ago, when we started the podcast, I talked about how it would be the future longevity supplement. At that time, you know, this was 10, over 10 years ago, it was just muscle building. And I was like, this is a lot. And now, now we're seeing like, this is a major benefits. Now let's talk about some of the benefits of creatine outside of you build more muscle and strength.

[Angelo Keeley]

So what I would say is, and this is one where I want to be nuanced because I think it could end up being even broader than what we're about to talk about. But it's at this point what the studies show is that it's really good again for stress physiology. Meaning if you're really sleep deprived.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yes.

[Angelo Keeley]

If you're older, senior citizen, and you're suffering from certain types of mental impairments, not things like dementia, but like focus, working memory.

[Sal DeStefano]

Although some studies show for dementia and Alzheimer's there seems to be a benefit, but that's a little more speculative.

[Angelo Keeley]

I think that's more speculative at this point.

[Sal DeStefano]

So you got good integrity.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. So I'm just trying to be like, you know, real about. Yeah. So what I would say is similar to the mechanism in the way that it works in muscle. Basically the way that creatine works is you take creatine consistently on a daily basis, it saturates in your muscle cells, and then when you go to exercise, you have a, this super quick form of energy that allows you to exercise better and stronger and get more reps in, and thus you get stronger and you develop more lean muscle and more strength.

[Sal DeStefano]

Sure.

[Angelo Keeley]

So what happens is if you take a lot more creatine. So I'm going to give the example, it's probably more relative for us and our age group and anyone younger. And actually I would just say everyone. If you take 15 grams of creatine on a day when you are sleep deprived, it has been shown to improve focus and working memory. And so why is that? How is that working? What's going on? Well, what we think is that initially the muscle wants a lot of the initial creatine. It's trying to absorb it and get it. But what's left over if you give this surplus goes into the brain because the brain is the other primary place where creatine gets stored. And we don't understand the exact mechanisms of action. But what it seems like is in a similar way to the muscle where it kind of gives this quick burst of energy or this conversion into ATP, it's doing something similar in the brain that's allowing you to basically overcome this kind of stress physiology where typically be like it makes sense, right? It's like hard to remember or I can't really stay focused. It gives you this more accessible energy. So that's, I mean that's kind of the core of what the studies have shown for people our age. When you look at older adults, it's higher doses, it's like 25 grams. So 25 grams is, I mean I take typically five grams a day. So it'd be like five scoops at 25 grams a day. They have seen consistent improvements in working memory and focus, et cetera, but it's definitely a lot more. And so I just say that because I know as you know, someone who sells a creatine, like I don't want someone to get hyped up on this, tell their mom to start taking it. They're only telling their mom to take 5 grams a day and they're expecting her brain's gonna work totally differently. It's like that's not what it's shown yet. That, that said, typically in the way that supplement science works is you start with really high doses because you want to show that it's gonna work. So it could end up being that over time we find, you know what, 20 grams was enough, actually 15 grams was enough for my 70 year old mom or grandma. So we may find that lower doses are sufficient.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, and it's very safe. It's been tested a million times for maybe not a million, but lots and lots of times for safety. But you know, it helps body produce more ATP. What cells don't run on ATP? Do you know of any? I think they all use ATP, you know, to an extent. So do you see in the supplement industry issues with quality with creatine?

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, it's actually, that's actually a pretty significant issue.

[Adam Schafer]

So I Would say, especially now with the gummies. Oh, yeah, all the gummies that are coming. I see a lot of tests coming out on the gummies that are just.

[Sal DeStefano]

There was a huge study. It's like there was like, like 90 of them. Didn't even have any creatine. You'd be just eating candy.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah. I mean, it's crazy. And I actually have, I have done it before. It's harder to tell with the creatine because it doesn't taste like anything, which is also a weird reason to make a gummy. Like the gummy thing. It seems weird to me just because it's not a difficult thing to take down. But like other supplements that have children, we other.

[Adam Schafer]

It's the only way I take my vitamins, bro.

[Angelo Keeley]

Okay, don't judge other supplements that have stronger taste, you know, like aminos. I've tried like gummies. And like this doesn't taste like. And you get it tested. There's nothing like buying supplements off Amazon or off some brand you don't know. It's like you literally could be buying nothing. And it is more going back to this question earlier about like doing all of the testing, you know, suddenly creatine is this very hot topic and everyone's interested in it. Well, I promise you, there's a bunch of up and coming entrepreneurs and online marketers that want to get into that business and they want to do it and they don't know how to. They don't know anything about creatine. Right. So they're just going to try to go to some manufacturer, going to make some product, and they don't even know if what that manufacturer is giving them is legit.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Angelo Keeley]

So I mean, that's, I think that's, that's the risk in the space. But even more broadly, like the actual process by which you make creatine is, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a complex chemical process. And in it, if you don't pay very close attention and be very committed to quality, you can have trace amounts of some of the inputs that you don't want ultimately. And so that's another issue that comes up in cheaper versions of creatine. So, yeah, I think there's both a risk of contamination with things you don't want in it all the way to. It's not 100% creatine. You're getting 70% of what the label actually says is on it. And either one of those is just not worth it. Especially with a supplement that's like Even if you look at a brand like Kion and you're like, ah, it seems more expensive than what I can get from bulk supplements, you know, it's like, it's not. You're going to be taking it every, like, as you're saying, Sal, too, this is the type of supplement to take every single day for the rest of your life. It's like, buy the one that is, you know, I'll save five bucks.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, it's like, come on, don't save five bucks. Come on, come on.

[Angelo Keeley]

You know, it's like. And so, for example, there's. There's one primary ingredient manufacturer creatine called Creapure. So that's the one that Kion uses. It's the one that's made in Germany, and it's the one that has the best relationships with all the scientists doing, like, all the newest, best studies. It's a micronized form. It's super clean. So it's, you know, that's why. And again, it actually is interesting. It happened during COVID During the COVID years, there was a real struggle to get this ingredient, Creapure. It was very hard to get. And I watched a lot of my peers and brands that I respected and I thought, oh, man, they're like the legit supplement company.

[Sal DeStefano]

Switch to Chinese creatine to switch to.

[Angelo Keeley]

Chinese creatine and stop carrying Creapure. Because they couldn't deal with the supply chain thing. And we literally just throttled sales. We had people on subscription, we couldn't really sell anymore. And we just kept doing that because I didn't want to go and sell some crap product that I didn't want to take or I didn't want to give to my teenage kids or my mom or dad.

[Adam Schafer]

What predicament to have to be in, you know?

[Sal DeStefano]

Well, there's nothing worse than taking a supplement every day to improve your health and to not realize that you're at. There's some contaminant or some byproduct that you didn't realize was in there through the crappy process or heavy metal. And you have no idea that you're actually making your health worse because you've been taking something that's cheaper for 10 years. Which our industry, your industry, I should say our industry is terrible too, but the supplement industry is just. Every time a consumer report comes out where they test supplements, I always make this face like, okay, here we go. And I read it and it's never. Nine out of ten of them came out great. It's always nine out of ten of them had some weird stuff or had nothing in it or we found all this other stuff. It's all. I think, in fact, I would love for someone to show me a consumer report that shows different. It's almost always the majority are not good. So this is like a big deal.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm proud to say though that we're batting 100 still with anybody we partner with.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, that's always something. I remember the first time that's a.

[Sal DeStefano]

Big deal for me to work with anybody.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh yeah, no, that's like, like. And I think you have to do that. I think that when these reports come out and 50, 60, 80% of them are bad, it's like.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And, and people just to save three to five bucks. It's like, it's crazy to me what, what people will, will choose because of that.

[Sal DeStefano]

Well, the problem is cheaper. You look at a bottle that says Omega 3, you look at another bottle that says Omega 3, you think you're comparing the same thing. That's the issue.

[Angelo Keeley]

It's hard to tell. I mean, I get it too. Like it's, it's not, it's not an obvious thing to just get like maybe after listening to an hour long podcast, like you understand this one specific thing about. But who has the time to do that or who, you know?

[Sal DeStefano]

Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

Do you guys feel like though that, that that's shifting and changing? I feel like the cons, I mean, we're at an interesting time now. I mean look at where we're at. Where you know, you, you actually as a founder now are like a, you're forward facing like just 20 years ago, no one knows who the founders of any companies really are. Where now you kind of have to be out there. People expect that. They want to hear from the guy who's behind this and I want to hear him talk about his thing where that wasn't a thing before.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, we'll talk about the, I guess, I mean, for lack of a better term, the courage it takes to get on a long form form of media like this and have three hosts ask you all these questions. I mean seriously, most companies wouldn't do that. Most CEOs wouldn't do that because it's scary.

[Adam Schafer]

It would be able to answer questions like you answer right now. I mean that's part of the thing that I think what, what I landed you, the conversation the first time with us was, you know, first of all you, you were, you wanted to counter a position that we've Taken on. We feel pretty damn confident about all of our positions. And you articulated so well. So I was like, okay, tell me more. I want to hear this. And then you've been able to come on here and handle any question and handle it with integrity. I don't know too many founders that can do that with their supplement company.

[Sal DeStefano]

There's.

[Adam Schafer]

There's not a lot of them.

[Sal DeStefano]

You know, back to creatine, I remember having Dr. Seeds on now. He's a. He's one of the lead doctors and researchers on peptide science. Very brilliant man. And we talked about creatine as being beneficial for people with methylation issues. So people who have the MTHFR gene that have to, you know, make sure they take B vitamins that are methylated, he's like, oh, creatine, it allows more methyl donors to be available to these other enzymatic processes in the body. That's a big deal for health and longevity. There's a significant percentage of people that would benefit from that. And I'm one of those people, and praise God, I've been using creatine since I was 16 years old. So it's been beneficial in that case. Are you familiar with any of that?

[Angelo Keeley]

I'm not as familiar with that science to speak to it.

[Sal DeStefano]

It's really, really cool. Very.

[Angelo Keeley]

That is cool.

[Adam Schafer]

How common is that, Sal? In somebody?

[Sal DeStefano]

It's relatively common. It's. Well, it's not super common, but it's a. It's a significant percentage of people. Enough to where, you know, people significant.

[Adam Schafer]

As in more than 10% or. Oh, okay. I mean, millions of people.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, okay.

[Sal DeStefano]

So.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, yeah. And these are issue. These are people who have issues with getting rid. You know, how does somebody.

[Adam Schafer]

How does somebody test to find out.

[Sal DeStefano]

They have a gene test? You know, the problem is that people are. That people are afraid of revealing it because it may get docked with insurance and stuff like that. So some people. In fact, I had. I won't say who it is. We had someone on the podcast, he's a health wellness guy, and he has the MTF HR gene variant and he's like, don't say it. I don't want anybody to know for that very reason.

[Adam Schafer]

Insurance policy stuff.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, I think afraid of the future, insurance companies and, you know, medical companies and stuff like that. So.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, interesting.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah, pretty interesting. Yeah. So tell me about how you decide to carry a supplement at all. Like, let's go through the process of, like, we're going to add this new product. Is it just. You got to See lots of data.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, I mean to be totally honest, we haven't added a bunch of stuff. Yeah, we kind of started with core stuff and we've stuck with core stuff because it's, it works. So from the most fundamental level though. Yeah, it's like, is this a product that is worth taking every day and that is going to meaningfully create benefit in our health and in customers health? And that has really good data behind it. And it's really that simple? It's like that simple of a formula and it's in sometimes produced kind of like a weird thing like coffee. We have a coffee, we have a can of coffee. People like, why do you have a coffee? Well, I believe actually in caffeine every day.

[Sal DeStefano]

I like it's cool data for it.

[Angelo Keeley]

I mean, honestly. And the antioxidants of coffee are legit. And it was one of those things where again it was hard to find a super good quality coffee that I wanted to consistently drink every single day. So there's this, there's this element. I don't wanna make it seem like too personal. Cause it's not just like pure like what do I wanna take every day. But there is a real thing behind like hey, omega 3s are legit. I really do wanna take it every day. Other people should take em every day. My family should take em every day. Same thing with like a protein powder, same thing with the creatine. And so that's kinda like the fundamental base. And then, and then really like is there science behind it too though? Like is this something that we're gonna be able to build a real business around? And then after that it's like you just need to do it really well. You know, I'll admit, like there's other. You know, it's interesting. When I was younger I got these staph infections and the only thing that got it to stop for me was this very unique garlic extract. And I'm still believe in that garlic extract, man. And I still take that supplement. But like the data behind it, it's like no one's really invested enough into getting the studies done, et cetera. And it's like if I was gonna do, you know, some kind of cool breakthrough thing, it maybe would be that. But it's like, you know what that's like, that's not what I'm up to with On Kion. On Kion. It's like what are the daily essentials that I'm gonna put in my body every single day. I want my family to put in their body every day. And that I can be proud to stand behind and that our whole team can be proud to stand behind. Behind.

[Adam Schafer]

Since you brought up the coffee, I want to give you your flowers because Keon coffee has been my favorite coffee for so many years. Justin loves coffee. I wish. And just so the audience knows, I will 100% it would be a sponsor of the show and I would sell the out of it if I could sell thousands of bags every time I talk about the margins are so slim.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

It's so hard for us to give you guys your return on your investment. Investment for a commercial. Just straight up being honest with the.

[Sal DeStefano]

Coffee that these, these.

[Adam Schafer]

Absolutely. My whole family. I have my whole family on Kion Coffee. It's. It's just. It's amazing. It's amazing coffee. But. And I remember when we first wanted to do it and we've coffee. We don't move enough. We just, we. We don't have that big of an audience where I can sell thousands of bags every time I talk about it. But I wish I could because I would talk about all the time because I drink Keon Coffee every single day. So got to give you your flowers for that.

[Angelo Keeley]

Thanks guys.

[Adam Schafer]

Wish I wish I could.

[Sal DeStefano]

Why does it taste? Why does it taste so. It really does taste. It's the best tasting coffee I've ever had. These guys are religious about it. We go to Truckee. If Keon Coffee is not there, they're pissed. It actually happened once. We're like, who didn't bring why? Is it the roasting or is it the beans?

[Angelo Keeley]

It's. It's multiple steps. So like to make this kind of coffee, the first thing you start with is a really high quality raw ingredient as well. So basically it's all single origin, which is funny because we don't even advertise that. But that's like a whole coffee snob thing. Right? So it's. They're single origin beans from Central America, but they're from very specific farms and co ops where they're not only organic and they're not only specialty grade, but they are dried on machine dryers. Because in some of these cases you can just dry the beans like on the actual like green bean sacks out in the fields. And in that process, that's where things like mold and other types of contaminants can get into the coffee bean. Whereas if you take the wet beans, you immediately take them and put them into these like machine dryers, then there's nothing. There's no other kind of like remnants of junk and stuff that gets on it. And, like, some of that junk could be actually dangerous, you know, like mold. Other. Other things could just be like other, you know, dirt and other stuff that gets, you know, brought in.

[Sal DeStefano]

Bird poop?

[Angelo Keeley]

I didn't want to say bird poop.

[Adam Schafer]

I don't believe that.

[Angelo Keeley]

So I don't know that.

[Adam Schafer]

I don't even know that about it. But when I do describe it to somebody, I say it's the purest, cleanest tasting coffee I've ever had.

[Sal DeStefano]

Smooth.

[Adam Schafer]

That's right. It's the purest, cleanest tasting coffee I've ever had, and I absolutely love it. And that makes total sense why that is. You said something, I didn't know this about coffee. Single origin. So is that very common that you just gather beans from all over and throw it all in one batch and then cheaper coffee.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, cheaper.

[Adam Schafer]

You call it a. And you call it a whatever medley at that point or what?

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, I mean, the, the. The.

[Adam Schafer]

And is that why Starbucks kind of what they say, kind of burns it, so it makes it.

[Angelo Keeley]

That's what I was going to say. So the easiest solution for making a coffee, and if you can imagine too, like in older times, where, like, they're bringing coffee beans on ships for, like, months at a time, and they're probably getting pretty gross by the time they get there, you mix a lot of different beans and you dark roast, burn them, because it just makes it the easiest way to consistently offer a coffee. Right.

[Adam Schafer]

Because I can only imagine if you were constantly tasting your coffee and every cup tasted a little different, you'd be like, I'm over this.

[Angelo Keeley]

I'm not. Yeah. So how do you make a really consistent coffee that is single origin? That is actually maybe the greatest challenge to what this. To the kion coffee, because, like, a lot of, like, what they call third wave coffee, these hipster coffee shops, you'll notice they maybe have like a different new light roast thing every time. This one's from Ethiopia and this one's from Columbia or whatever. And it's like from a special farm or whatever. And sometimes they're like, really bright tasting. Have you ever had that with, like, a super acidic. It's because that's kind of like the hip thing in the coffee world is to I can get this one really unique coffee bean from this one place and get the really unique flavor profile out of it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Angelo Keeley]

That, like, it won't taste like anything else. And so whereas the opposite of that would be like Starbucks, you know, or traditional French roast. Just like whatever coffee beans I can get and just burn them.

[Sal DeStefano]

Yeah.

[Angelo Keeley]

And if you burn them, no one can taste the difference of it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Angelo Keeley]

So the interesting challenge with like a kion coffee as well, even our dark roast is not that dark of a roast. We have a light roast, medium and dark. And really what it is is you get this really high quality coffee bean, but it can't always come from the same Honduran farm or Mexican farm. Like, sometimes you have to get it from a slightly different place, but they all need to have the same profile so that you are tasting the same awesome kion coffee that you've been drinking for however many years. So it's very difficult to source them to get the same kind of profiles, the same notes of. Of chocolate and caramel, et cetera. And then it's really extensive testing, which again, we're. And it's crazy to say this because when we first got into it, I assume like coffee brokers had been through this. They didn't. We're not. Had not gone through it. We're like, we're testing all the green beans and then we have these contracts where like, once you transport to the United States, it has to pass the test again. And if it doesn't pass that test, we'll reject it. Like, dude, we're not doing that. And it's like, we just negotiated it over time, but we came up with things. This is an interesting thing I never would have imagined where we tested it in the other country. Right. And then it gets shipped to the US and we roast it and it pops for like, pesticides. And we're like, how could it have pesticides? You can buy an organic coffee as a coffee producer and then they will put it in one of those green sacks.

[Adam Schafer]

That's someone's ass.

[Angelo Keeley]

That was a conventional sack that had been used prior for non organic coffee beans. So it's getting covered in the pesticide remnants that were on the conventional coffee beans.

[Adam Schafer]

Dude, how often does that probably happen to people that claim they have organic coffee?

[Angelo Keeley]

And we were like, they had never heard of this. They'd never. Like, we're the ones that uncovered this in 2020 or something. I'm like, I. I kind of blew my mind that no one had come across it before.

[Adam Schafer]

How long did it take you to figure that out? Because I'm imagining you guys.

[Angelo Keeley]

Well, we had to just like, stop that. All that. You know, we had to stop that whole.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Angelo Keeley]

That whole lot of coffee, basically, and move on to another one and figure out what was.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, yeah, but how did you tie it back to the sacks? I mean, because I imagine when that first pops, you're going like, how did this happen? And your first thing is someone sprayed it. You don't think a bag that it travels in is contaminating it.

[Angelo Keeley]

It was literally just like an audit of the full process to the point where then we got the only possible one. And. Yeah, and our part, our primary partner that helps manage the coffee side was like, we just gotta test the bag and test the bag and that's what popped.

[Adam Schafer]

Wow.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

That's wild.

[Adam Schafer]

That's crazy. That's wild.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah.

[Sal DeStefano]

What's your top seller?

[Angelo Keeley]

Essential amino acids.

[Sal DeStefano]

Wow. Yeah, that's great.

[Adam Schafer]

Consistently.

[Angelo Keeley]

Consistently. And I would say that's though also, I mean, what I would say is we don't really advertise the coffee either because just to be real about it as a business, margins, the margins are very, very small. So if you want to go out there and you want to advertise and tell the story of it and do ads on, you know, Facebook or something or Instagram, like you just can't, it can't pay for itself unless you have. And I. There's another part of our business is we've been bootstrapped from the beginning. We don't have some big, yeah. Financial bank or partner, you know, like, we didn't.

[Adam Schafer]

Who can burn a million for a couple years.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah, it's like, no, like in the very beginning we had to like actually like make it, make money. You know, it's like, like I borrowed a lot of money personally to make the thing work early on. So it's like, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't a thing where we could just, you know, just try to get customers but not make money from it. So, yeah, it's just, it's, it's tough on, on that side of things and what I'd say. So then, like, naturally supplements have better margins than, than coffee does. But really early, early on, the essential amino acids started to take off as kind of like just the story of what they are and how they work. And with a little bit of an older audience and, you know, we follow that intuition and we devoted more resources to marketing them. And you said earlier, Sal, you know, like omega 3s and creatine. And I know I haven't converted you yet on how important essential amino acids are. I think in that tier. I think they're in that tier. Particularly as we age. I think if you, if you talk to, you know, a 20 year old, I'm not telling him. You need to start taking essential amino acids. I would say, you know, you start taking Omega 3s now, and over the long arc of your life, you raise these omega 3 levels in your blood. You have a much greater. You have much lower risk of these diseases. And you want a little bit of, you know, you want a little bit of advantage in the gym. Take the creatine. It's going to work. I would say the EAAs are also going to give an advantage. But as we get older, as you're, you know, 50 years old, the creatine is awesome. The creatine is going to give you more energy when you're in the gym. But after 50 years old, particularly, any way in which I can stimulate a little bit more, like, a little bit more anabolism, like, I can actually build some muscle or stimulate the replacement of my old muscle and the proteins in my body without even having go to the gym. That has literally no side effects. Like, there's no. I mean, we're talking like hundreds of studies on essential amino acids similar to creatine. There's no bad things that happen to anyone. Yet you get people putting on pounds of muscle without any additional resistance training. I mean, they had some kind of existing resistance training program. Pounds of muscle within months, and over the course of decades, 10 pounds, 15 pounds of muscle, no muscle loss as they age. So it's like, I think the essential amino acids still are a sleeper. It's like, it's kind of crazy to me that it still has.

[Sal DeStefano]

I don't disagree with you. I agree with you, especially as you get older. The game of fighting aging is complex, but I'd say you could. In a nutshell, it's to slow down or stop the catabolic effects that happen from aging. So anything you can do that prevents the catabolic effects is going to improve your longevity in that case. And I think essential amino acids definitely do that, for sure. So I would agree with you. 100.

[Angelo Keeley]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Love that.

[Sal DeStefano]

Good stuff. Angela, great. Thanks for coming back.

[Angelo Keeley]

Thanks, guys. Thanks for having me on.

[Sal DeStefano]

You got it. I appreciate the education, and I know our audience appreciates it. I think a lot of them take omega threes. I know everybody takes creatine. We've been, you know, touting that for. For since we started.

[Adam Schafer]

So I love your integrity and honesty. It takes a lot to do a business that you're doing. I know a lot. I have a lot of friends and know a lot of people that scale supplement companies. And the model is, once you build a foundation of is you do go chase every product just to build LTV on your people, which doesn't matter if it's that good or not. It's just like more stuff to sell your people regardless of how much of an impact it makes. And so just stick to your guns and and do things that really move the needle and stay in that space. I know how difficult that is and I have a lot of respect for that. Yeah.

[Angelo Keeley]

Thanks Adam.

[Justin Andrews]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump if your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discount RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps aesthetic nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundles like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.