← Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth
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Guys, thanks for helping me carry my Christmas tree. Zoe, this thing weighs a ton.
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I'm not.
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Of course he did.
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Right, Santa, you know my elf Drew Ski here.
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He handles the nice list.
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And elf, I'm six' three.
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To pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump.
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With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer.
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C
And Justin Andrews, you just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast in the history of the universe. That's right. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode we have Larry Hagner on the podcast. He is the host of the dad Edge. This episode is phenomenal. We talk about being a good man, husband and father. In fact, he wrote a great book called the Pursuit of legendary fatherhood. We talk a little bit about it on this podcast. You can pre order it if you go to thedadege.com legendarybook men, you're going to want to listen to this podcast, ladies. You're going to want to have your man listen to this podcast with you. It's really, really good. This episode is brought to you by a sponsor, Hyah Health. They make multivitamins for children that are not candy. Most multivitamins for kids are just a bunch of candy. This is not that. And it has adequate nutrients that actually make a difference. It's the only multivitamin for kids that we Recommend. Go to hyahealth.com that's H I Y A health.com forward/mind pump. That link will give you 50% off your first order. Also, Maps 15 strong is out brand new program. It's Mapstrong, but in the 15 minute version and it's 50% off. Go to maps15strong.com. So maps15strong.com, use the code 1250 for the discount.
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All right, real quick. If you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over@mypumpstore.com. i'm talking right now. Hit pause. Head on over to my pumpstore.com. that's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.
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C
Larry. Welcome to the show, my friend.
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B
What's up? How you guys doing? It's been a minute since we hung out.
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A
Dude. Six years, man.
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B
Has it been that long?
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A
Six years.
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B
Wow.
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C
Flies.
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A
It does, man.
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C
Flies. You were just talking about your book. Yeah. And how well it did. Tell us a little bit about what it's about and just why you wrote it.
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A
It's a fictional story about two old ladies going to bingo.
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No, it's. It's called Pursuit of Legendary Fatherhood. Came out on September 16th. It's divided up into four parts. One is called the Drift and happy to talk about that. That's been, I think, the thing I've talked about the most on shows. Husband, father, leader. So four parts, basically, like everything that we've learned within the dad Edge ecosystem over the past 10 years. I pretty much put all of it in that book.
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C
Okay.
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A
So, yeah, it's done really well. We did a pre order campaign and it's it. We sold hundreds of copies. So it's been doing really well.
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B
Tell me about the Drift.
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C
Yeah. What is that?
- [04:15]
A
So the Drift is like this Wash, rinse, repeat that. I think a lot of us, I know I've been in the Drift before, but the Drift is kind of like this sinister thing that kind of happens to men after we graduate college, we get married, start having kids. So when I first started doing this work, I hired a mentor back in 2015. He's like, if you're gonna Do a podcast. He goes, you really need to have an avatar. And I was like. And at the time, I didn't know what an avatar was. And I'm like, what does that even mean? He's like, well, you need to picture somebody's life and you speaking directly to them. So when you write your blogs, when you write your books, when you podcast, that's your avatar. So I'll explain the drift and I'll explain my avatar, because I think it'll probably make more sense that way. So I came up and I was like, well, how much detail do I have to put into this avatar? He's like, as much as you can. So I wrote like nine pages about this guy's life, and I'll condense in super short. So Lance is 38 years old. He's been 38 for the past 10 years, but he's got three kids, 10 and 10, 8 and 5. And he's married to a woman named Kate. And his life, he's the breadwinner. He goes to a job every day that he somewhat despises. He doesn't really hate it, but he doesn't love it. It's very unfulfilling. So he spends 8, 10, 12 hours a day doing a job that he really doesn't like, because 82% of men go to a job every day that they don't like. So he's not really fulfilled that way. He's stressed out, overwhelmed, burnt out, comes home, doesn't transition. And then he's like, dad and husband doesn't have the best patience with his kids. Wants to connect better with his kids, but just doesn't really know how. And he's just like, well, I guess this is just life. Kate, who he's married to, basically not really intimate anymore. They're having sex maybe once a month, once every other month. They're connecting only on the managerial things, like the operations of the family. No date nights. They're just sort of stagnant. They're not really going anywhere. They still love each other, but really disconnected. And here's the other thing, too, that is really sinister. So it's the men that speak into Lance's life. So he's not surrounded by good men. He's surrounded by, like, his old high school and college buddies. And when he starts to talk about this stuff, which is very rarely, his buddies are like, dude, you don't like what you do for a living. None of us do. Just get over it. Just put your head down, grind, and just go. You're not Having sex with your wife, dude, you guys been married for, like, 10 years. You got three kids. You're not going to have sex anymore. And your kids, they're pains. Like, they're just gonna annoy you. They're gonna make you angry. And that's just life, man. Just deal with it. And Lance buys into that, but he knows that he's leaving so much on the table, but he just doesn't know how to access it, and he just keeps going. And the worst part about it is, even physically, like, he's gained some weight over the years, he doesn't feel confident, doesn't have the best mental health or even emotional health, but he just keeps going. And it just gets darker and darker and darker and darker.
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C
And how common is that story? When you talk about that? Do you get a lot of guys writing in? They're like, hey, man, that. That's me.
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A
That's like, almost all I get. Wow. Is, you know, guys just like. I mean, there. There isn't a week that goes by that I don't get at least a handful of emails, just guys just pouring their hearts out. And the. The story is very similar to Lance, and nothing. You know, I do get a lot of emails when people's houses are burning down and families are burning down, but I get a lot of emails that are just like, I'm just not satisfied, but I don't know what to do.
- [07:32]
C
Wow. And why do you think that is? And then let's talk about how they can come out of that as men. Like, why do you think that's so common?
- [07:38]
A
I think it's so common because 70% of men have identified being lonely and not having, like, a 3am friend or even a good circle of friends. So most guys spend their life in two places. They're either at work or with family, and they really don't have a whole lot of other robust things in their life other than those things. But it's the people that always speak into Lance's life. Even, like, Lance's family, like, his dad is like, dude, this is life. Like, what did you expect? Come on, man. Like, this is life. And. But how guys get out of the drift is when guys draw a line in the sand and they basically say, enough. And that. I mean, that's what I did, and that's what I've seen other guys do over the past decade. I'm not doing this anymore. I am not doing this anymore. There's gotta be a better way. Once guys start to learn the skills of connecting with their Wife connecting with their kids, learn how to be a validation, a validator with their wife. You know, just being. Knowing how to validate their wife's emotional state. They can learn the skill of patience with their kids. Patience is nothing more than emotional resilience. It's just bottled up and marketed just a little bit different. But that's how a guy takes that. He just draws a line in the sun, says, no more. I'm going to learn how to do this.
- [08:52]
C
Do you think a big reason for. For that, that issue is because a lot of men didn't have the example of what it could look like or what it should like, so it looked like. Or just the fact that didn't have a male role model at all?
- [09:07]
A
I think it's that for sure. I think a lot. So, you know, our generation, like, we came from a generation where our dads just identified probably as the providers, right? That's what they did. They. They brought home a paycheck, they provided, and that was. That was kind of their role. Right? And there really wasn't in this, in our generation, in the generation before us, there really wasn't. It really wasn't popular to be like, hey, I really have a desire to connect with my kids. I really want to be with my kids. I really want to have this great marriage with my wife now, I think in this generation. So our generation of dads, man, you look out on the. On the bleachers of sporting events, you see more dads there. You see more dads on field trips, you see more dads playing with their kids at parks. Like, dads, like, I gotta hand it to dads, like this generation, they are hungry and they are eager to do something different.
- [09:55]
C
Yeah, the data does support that. It does show that men are more involved. I can't help but think about midlife crisis, which was kind of what you're describing. And there seems to be a fork in that road where one direction leads to divorce, maybe an affair, or I'm gonna go do this other stuff to try to make myself feel better. And then the other one is the guy that you're describing who's like, I gotta. I wanna change this and make it better. What's the difference? What. What is the difference between the guy that's like, I can do something about it and the other guy that's just like, I'm gonna escape.
- [10:29]
A
Yeah, those are. Those are two very common paths. Right. And that. And that is the fork in the road. You know, you keep going the way you're going or you do something different. But here, here's what I'll compare compare to. You guys are in the health, health and fitness space. You guys have more knowledge than probably just about anybody out there. If anybody asks you, how do I get more fit, how do I get leaner? How do I build muscle? You guys have learned the skills. You weren't born with those skills, but you've learned the skills over the years to do that. Believe it or not, marriage is actually the exact same thing. There are skills that are associated with connecting to your wife, building intimacy, building attraction, all of those things. And it's the same thing with your kids. There are skills to connect with your kids. There are skills to be a more resilient father. And just most men just, we. We look at that as like, well, if I need to learn that, does that mean I'm less than. Does that mean I'm a weak father? If I have to learn it, shouldn't this come naturally? And that's one of the biggest blocks.
- [11:26]
C
Yeah, that's a very, very good point.
- [11:28]
B
When you describe Lance and all the challenges that Lance has and through all the years you've been doing this and all the men that you've helped, do you find there are common themes or common, common things that are most difficult for men that are. That they all have? Like, for example, I would guess that we do a pretty bad job of making friends once we're 30, 40 years old. And of all the things that you listed, that's going on with Lance, you know, I think I can learn some skills to better connect with my kids and that that would be relatively easy if someone taught me, or same thing with my wife. But going out and making friends, I would think would be. Is that. Am I on with that or is it. What would you say is the most common ones that, that the, the men that you help have the hardest time with?
- [12:13]
A
Usually when men knock on my virtual doorstep, it always usually has to do with marriage. What I have found over doing this work over the past 13 years is that if you can get a guy's marriage in order, you can pretty much get a lot of other things in order. So a guy who's got his marriage on point is usually going to be more productive in the workplace. And a guy who's got his marriage on point is probably going to be a more patient father. He's probably going to take better care of himself physically, mentally, emotionally. He's probably going to be a better leader. But most of the time, when I ask a guy, I mean, I can almost say it before they do. I was like, what is the biggest roadblock in your marriage? It's communication. It's communication. And here's the bottom line. I mean, men and women, we just communicate differently. And men have three different needs in a relationship, and so do women. And a lot of times when I ask a guy, do, you know your wife's three needs in the relationship? And they're like. They'll kind of like, well, she needs to be loved. Trust. And then they're thinking about it, and I'm like, if you don't know what the needs are, if you don't know what the target is, how are you supposed to hit it, right? A woman needs to feel seen, she needs to feel heard, and she needs to feel safe. Those are the three needs that she needs from a man. So a lot of times in communication, we're just kind of naturally not the best communicators because, like, let's. Let's just take this circle of dudes for a second, right? If I open up to any of you guys just in a conversation, and I'm like, man, me and Jessica, like, we're just not communicating very well right now. Not having sex right now. Like, I don't know what's wrong. And if you were to be like, man, that sounds really tough, I'd be like, well, what do y' all think I should do, right? Like, tell me what to do, right? And. But that is the biggest difference, because what a guy will do is we'll try to solve problems we want to fix because we feel that that is the best way to serve, to take away pain and to give relief, right? But that's actually not what she needs. She just needs to be heard. She needs to be seen. But let me talk about the safety thing really quickly, too. The safety thing is the biggest button of them all. Think of safety as, like, the foundation of the house when it comes to a relationship. Safety. The way I describe it is think of a giant oak tree, and that oak tree is safety, but there's several branches. So a woman needs to feel emotionally safe, she needs to feel physically safe, she needs to feel financially safe. She needs to feel safe that you're not going to lose your mind on the kids. So when she sees us lose our patience on the kids, that triggers her safety. And then what a woman does is when those knees are compromised, that's when she gets resentful. That's when she starts to disconnect. That's when she starts to retreat, and a guy's like, what the heck is going on? I don't understand this. And this is where guys are like, I don't understand what she's doing. I don't know, I'm doing all this stuff, but she's just not coming along. But usually it's the. It's the needs.
- [14:56]
C
What are the men's needs?
- [14:57]
A
Men's needs are to feel respected, appreciated, and we need physical affection. And when the woman's not getting her needs met, she's not so good at getting. Giving her. Her man what he needs. And they just butt heads. And it's vice versa, too. So a woman who's not fulfilling a man's need will also build up resentment.
- [15:15]
B
It's crazy. Yesterday I had a situation where the respect thing for me and the protective thing for my wife.
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Clashed and overlapped. It was wild.
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C
What happened?
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B
Like, Katrina and I maybe get into a fight like this once a year. We rarely ever. And we had a moment yesterday where. High pressure moment with work. It was timely. I need to get something executed. It's a department that she runs. I'm calling her to get it done. Right away. She gets on the phone. I don't realize she's with my son at a field trip doing something. And words were exchanged in. In definitely in a way where I wasn't sensitive. Definitely in a way that she was heightened. And then we got into it and ended up in this, like, big blow up. And it's like both of us, like, what is going on? This is so not us. And we. We made up for the night. And then the next. The next day, and this was two days ago, she. She sought counseling from her mom. And her mom's asking her about her day, and she starts telling her the story. And she's like, yeah, we were at this field trip and there was this really kind of creepy guy that had this long lens camera and he was taking photographs of the kids. And she goes, and I was by myself with Max, and I saw that. It was really weird. And she goes, I was in this moment where I was like, I wanted to go right up to him and find out what the f was going on.
- [16:28]
A
Yeah.
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B
And she goes. And it's been weighing on me like crazy.
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A
I don't.
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B
I don't know what to do. And she goes. And I was in this situation where I couldn't leave my son in this super busy place to go address this guy that she was fearful of what he was doing. And so she's like, I feel like I get this is like this is like midnight, one in the morning. We're talking about this. And she's like, I feel like I need to write a letter to the school. And so she gets up, she writes letter, school, first thing in the morning. The teacher goes, yes, we saw it. In fact, somebody pulled him over to security. They made him delete all his phones. And it was super, like, it. So totally inappropriate thing that was going on. And she goes, that was three minutes before the phone call that I received from you. I don't know any of that stuff. What's happening. I'm also in a pressure situation where we have this ad that's about to run. Something went wrong. We have to change it. It's her department that's doing it. So I'm calling her. I need you to fix this right away. And so that's how that all happened. So you have this situation. And then I didn't like the way she responded to me when I'm needing something that's related to work. So here I am, wanting my respect of, like, hey, when I tell you to do this, this is your department. You need to execute this. I can't have you tell me, not now or this or that. And so I get really frustrated with that. She's obviously in a situation where she doesn't feel protected and safe because I'm in that situation. I'm there. I go beeline straight to the guy while she stays with our son, and I go take the camera out of his hands and address it myself where that couldn't happen. So it was so wild to see the point you're making right now and how when both of those could be off, what it could cause. And for Katrina and I to have an argument like that that never escalates to that level was so weird that. Remember both of us going, like, man, that is not like us. Like, I mean. And I'm like, how is everything else in your day? I'm fine. I wasn't even. I wasn't even that big of a deal, but it was a. A pressure moment. I did feel disrespected and just like her. It wasn't that big of a deal, the situation, but she did feel unsafe, and it was. In that situation. It was, like, wild how something like that can overlap and how then it could turn into this, such a big issue, when really it wasn't. All it took was some communication, working through that, understanding what each person was going through, and then obviously, fine afterwards. But kind of crazy that you're talking about this today. This Just was two days ago when this happened. And that's what. How that all unfolded. So it was a trip. And it didn't. It was her mother who really helped her unpack that and see that. And that was when she. Because she didn't bring it to me until after the fact what had happened. And she's like, honey, do you not see how you were feeling in that moment? Who. Who do you feel most safe with? She's like, oh, without him? She's like, where was he? Oh, he wasn't there. So super trippy. How not. Not understanding how important those two things are, the two sexes and how it could lead to something like that had we not had, you know, the communication. She didn't have her mother to kind of counsel her. That could have been something that festered for a while or continued to be resentment afterwards and anger. But luckily we were able to distill it down to those two very unique situations happening at the exact same time randomly to cause something that would normally never happen in our relationship.
- [19:25]
C
Yeah, you had mentioned in those. Those different segments of the book, you mentioned leadership as it applies to men. And I've heard this many, many times that the man's role is to lead, but that could also be interpreted as the man initiates. And so do you see how sometimes you got a couple that are talking about their issues or guys coming to you and you're like, your wife needs to feel seen, heard and safe. And he's like, yeah, but she's not respecting me. She's not appreciating me, and she's not giving me physical affection. And they get stuck in the stalemate of. You go first. You go first. You mentioned leadership. Is it important that the man realize that he's the initiator and that she typically responds? And if the woman initiates, that doesn't typically work as well, or they're less likely to.
- [20:18]
A
That's. That's a great question. So I think that there's what I've noticed, and I'm sure you guys have probably noticed just in maybe other couples that you hang out with or just other couples that you know a lot of times. I mean, you guys probably know the book no More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover.
- [20:31]
C
No, Never heard of that.
- [20:32]
A
Oh, you haven't heard that book? No, it is a classic read for men. It's one of those books that will educate the hell out of you on, like, your nice guy tendencies. And I'll explain what I'm talking about. It'll piss you off at the same time you're like, that's me. You know, it's like. But basically what Robert Glover talks about in that book is what a nice guy does, is he has what he calls these covert contracts. So, like, a guy will be like, well, if I fulfill her needs, she'll fulfill mine, right? And people do that all the time, right? And here's the thing that is expected in a relationship. But a guy will do things. And there's a whole psychology behind this. A guy will do things with an agenda. So, like, for instance, he'll be like, man, like, I really, really want to get back in my wife's good graces again. I want intimacy again. I want to have sex again. So he'll do the dishes and he'll clean the bathroom and he'll take out the trash. Like, I used to do this so bad. I used to do the dishes kind of loud. Like, so she hears me over here. You take out the trash, you accidentally hit the wall. Be like, I'm just taking this heavy bag outside. You know, hopefully she sees it. And. But I'll tell you, that's a really common thing for guys that they want to give because they're expecting. And then when that. When that expectation is not fulfilled. Here's the other thing, too. She usually doesn't know about it because he's like, well, if I do X, Y, Z, then I'll get this. And then when we don't, we get pissed. We get resentful. So that's like the nice guy thing. But I think, what if you really look at what a nice guy does and there's a lot of us out there. Ryan Mickler, I know you guys know he talks about this a lot as well. A nice guy will be like, where do you want. She'll be like, where do you want to go to dinner? Wherever you want to go. Yeah, right. What are we doing with the kids this weekend? Like, that's what we ask as men. Like, what's going on this weekend? Like, so it's like guys are asking because we kind of view. Like, I'm not saying that this is. This is a bad thing, but it's also a very normal thing in relationships, unfortunately. So a guy will usually look at his wife like, she kind of calls the shots for the family. She kind of like, is the manager of all the activities and everything going on. She's like, the end all, be all. Plus, like, he always wants to.
- [22:44]
He kind of wants to be a yes man, right? Because he wants to be in his wife's good graces. And here's the bottom line. A woman is not attracted to that. A woman wants a kind man. She wants a compassionate man, empathetic man. But she also wants a man to lead. And I think a man can lead not necessarily by being domineering, controlling, calling the shots, but also like. So, for instance, here's a perfect example. I used to be that guy, to be like, you know, hey, do you want to go out this Friday? Well, yeah. Where do you want to go? We'll go anywhere you want to go. What time you want to be ready. And now I'm just like, hey, Friday night, be ready by six. Kids already got a babysitter. Where are we going? You'll find out. Don't worry about it. Dress code is sexy. Just be sexy.
- [23:28]
C
You're having sex that night.
- [23:29]
A
Yeah, well, I think. And a woman likes that, you know, she really, really does. She wants to be led, courted, and that type of thing.
- [23:38]
C
Yeah, that's a great, very good point. So is one the things you help these men with is in that right.
- [23:43]
A
There, initiate and take that leadership, is being the initiator. The thing that I always warn men, though, when I first start to work with them, is your wife will not come along for the ride in the beginning of this. She'll actually resist it. Because here's what usually happens, like the dynamic of marriage and the relationship.
- [24:00]
C
Well, they want to see if it's real. I'm sure they're like, let's see if this sticks.
- [24:02]
A
Exactly. They're looking for that consistency. So usually what I've seen. So, like, there's one client that I have, he's been married for 14 years, and. And he's had this pattern of like, all right, I'm going to do things different. And he'll do things different for about a week or two, and then he goes back to old habits. And this has pissed his wife off because it really compromises that last need of safety. Because if a guy.
- [24:27]
C
Unstable.
- [24:28]
A
Unstable, which is trust. So if she sees consistency over time, that makes her feel more safe. That makes her feel like, okay, I can trust him, right? So usually in the beginning, like when a guy comes to my table, he's tried to change several times, and his wife is just like, over it. And she's like, you've told me you're going to do things different. And you do it for a couple weeks, and then she gets let down again. So the thing that I always warn guys is like, she's going to be very resistant at first she probably even abrasive, you know, so be ready for that. And that always happens. And then little by little, over time, we'll start to recover the relationship. One other quick example here. I took on a client about nine months ago and he was right in the midst of a divorce. Like two year old kid, only child. They were married for five years, moved out, inked divorce papers, then he started going to work. And I gotta be honest, man, I was like, there's, there's no way. I even told this guy. I was like, there, no promises, man. I doubt we'll recover this relationship, but I'll coach you to just be better. They just moved back in last week.
- [25:36]
C
Wow. Wow.
- [25:37]
A
Completely recovered the relationship. I was blown away, but it took nine months, you know, of consistency.
- [25:44]
B
Let's, let's talk about some of these tactical trusts. And I love that you, you drew the parallel to us and our expertise and profession with getting people fit and all this acquired knowledge, right? And through those years of helping so many people, we've learned that you don't just map out the perfect diet and the routine and tell them we have all the X's and O's to get somebody shredded. Okay? Whatever goal you have, I have the answers for you. But we've learned over time, like, you don't want to overwhelm somebody with all that if you want them to be successful. We're trying to create new behaviors and new things. And so we've learned like, just go do this and you'd give them one, like. And so there's very tactical things that we've learned over decades of training so many people of like how to step them to this overall, get them into these overall behavioral changes. I imagine that's similar in the work that you do. So give me some very tactical things that I come to you, like this, this, this dad whose marriage is in shambles. All the things I'm suffering. You know, I'm like the character that you described when you started. What are some like tactical things that you get me to start to do right out the gates versus saying like, oh, you need to do this, this, this. I'm sure you don't do that.
- [26:55]
A
No, I. So everything I teach is, is tactical. But I'm gonna quote, do you guys know who Keith Yackey is from Married game?
- [27:02]
B
No, we're losing this game, dude.
- [27:05]
A
I have all kinds of intros for you guys.
- [27:07]
B
Name dropping, all kinds of names. We don't know Keith Yackey.
- [27:10]
A
I'm going to answer your question, but I want to Talk about the elements of attraction that I think a lot of guys probably aren't aware of. So Keith Yackey, he used to be a coach of mine. He coached me for probably nine months. And he runs a platform called Married Game, and he basically helps men attract their wives back. And he taught me this principle. It's called the Five Ps of Attraction. So the first P is partner. So think about this. Your wife wants a partner. She wants a teammate. She wants someone to do life with who's going to support her, who's going to lead her and all that. And sometimes we're just not taught how to be partners. Like, as you said, a lot of us don't have the blueprint. We didn't have the example growing up, so we're winging it, and we're just not probably doing the best job. Then there's parent. That's the second one.
- [27:56]
B
Parent.
- [27:56]
A
Think of it like this. You know, Jessica, Katrina, like, our wives, like, carried our kids for, like, nine months, right? And being, you know, being pregnant kind of destroys your body. I mean, and they're. They're mama bear with those kids. So what they want to see is they want to see a compassionate, playful, patient dad, because nothing will compromise a woman's trust more than a guy who's unpredictable with her kids. So she wants to see that playful dad. Like, you guys obviously know who Jim Gaffkin is, the comedian. When he had the Jim Gaffkin show, they were advertising it. There was these, like, four beautiful women coming out of a store in New York, and. And they were just like, look. You could tell they're, like, looking at something, and they're just like, oh, my God, what is that? And they're just, like, hypnotized. And then it goes to Jim Gaffigan, you know, like this pale, overweight guy with five kids, and he's just. With his kids being playful, and they're like. Like doing this. But there's some truth to that. You know, it's a very appealing thing when it. When a man is a good dad, you know, and it's very attractive. And then there's. Then there's producer. Producer is a woman needs to feel financially safe. Unfortunately, women are not attracted to a broke guy who can't pay bills. You don't have to have nine figures in the bank, but a woman wants a man who can pay bills and then a little more. And a lot of guys. Well, what's that little more? The little more is like if, you know, Junior needs a new pair of tennis shoes for 200 bucks. She's not calling you panicking, like, hey, we need to get a new pair of shoes. Are we good? So she needs to feel that. Then there is power. Power is confidence. Power is not. I'm not domineering. I'm not controlling, but I'm confident. Right? I'm a confident man. So those. Those are the elements of attraction. And to answer your question, one of the first things that I'll teach a guy is how to communicate with his wife, especially when she's venting, whether positive or negative. Because what a guy usually wants to do is he wants to come in and fix something that's negative and that usually just shuts down his wife. She doesn't feel heard. She doesn't feel listened to, because all she's thinking is. All you're thinking about is telling me how to fix this. You're not even listening to me. So let's take a negative emotion. So if I come home and I'm like, hey, sweetheart, how was your day? And she's like, oh, my God, today was terrible. We got a medical bill in the mail for, you know, your knee surgery a few months ago. It's $3,000. Colton spilled milk all over the kitchen. Glass was everywhere. And then Ethan didn't get accepted into the paramedic program. And normally, like, I would try to tamp that down and be like, well, that's not that big of a deal. I mean, we got the money. We'll pay it. And, you know, spilled milk cleans up. You know what? There's going to be another window of opportunity for Ethan. Don't worry about it. And that just shuts her down. But what I'm trying to do as a man is just take away her pain. Instead. If it's that negative emotion, I'll validate. Be like, geez, man, Jessica, that sounds like a really frustrating day. Tell me more about that. Who wouldn't be upset with a day like that? Tell me more about that. So what I've just done is I've globalized her negative emotions, so I put the spotlight on the day, not on her. I don't know if you guys noticed, but I didn't say, man, you sound really frustrated, because as soon as you say you sound frustrated, it feels accusatory and defenses go up. But if you say that sounds frustrating, that's good advice.
- [31:11]
B
I think a lot of people.
- [31:12]
C
Anybody would be frustrated.
- [31:13]
A
Anybody would be frustrated. And then when you say, tell me more, that's an invite for talk to me, right? And the more she's talking, the better. Right. Even if you're not solving anything. Because a woman is after one thing, she's not after solutions. She's after connection. And if we can do that, it's so much better. Now, if she's feeling a positive emotion, you want to localize that and put the word you in it. So if she has an awesome day, you'd be like, man, you must feel so amazing. Tell me more about it. Because people love to own their positive emotions, especially in an intimate relationship. And you talk about being seen and heard. When you emotionally validate a woman, whether it's a positive emotion or a negative, man, you become the most interesting and attractive guy in the room, by the way.
- [31:54]
C
Reverse that and it would go right. If I. If I personalize the negative and I. Or and I globalize the positive, like, think of the global. I had a great day. Well, of course anybody would have a great day. Immediate, like, it's the opposite. Validate. What's interesting about this and women, I think, you know, on their side, they have to figure this out as well, is that we just don't communicate the same.
- [32:17]
A
We don't.
- [32:18]
C
Because if you came. If I came to you, or you come to me, hey, Sal, how's your day going? And I told you all that stuff, and then you replied, man, that sounds terrible. Tell me more. Like, when you go, get out of.
- [32:28]
B
Here, I don't want to hear that from you.
- [32:31]
C
Feel worse, you know, because that's not how we communicate at all. If I come to you, I want to hear a solution if I'm saying anything to you at all.
- [32:39]
A
Yeah.
- [32:39]
B
So is this a typical starting point for. Or the first, like, tactical thing you have to do? And I imagine, like, there's a lot of, like, okay, just go focus on that. And then waiting to hear back. There are situations where they had that conversation. And I. And because there is a bit of a, you know, you have to be. You have to be aware of it. This is a positive conversation or this is a negative one. And then globalize versus I think, I would imagine that a lot of guys, it takes a little bit of time to learn that skill. Yeah, right. Because it doesn't come natural to us. And so not only are you learning to communicate differently, but then also listen better on, like, oh, this is one of those times where I don't want to say you. I don't want to make that mistake. And so does it take guys a while? Do you find yourself having that conversation, them coming back and be like, damn it, you know, I did this.
- [33:25]
A
Yeah. When they first get started, they do. I mean, like when I'm coaching a guy, especially over zoom, I'm like, literally drawing this. I'm writing this stuff out. I'm like, okay, if it's a negative emotion, this is what you do. If it's a positive emotion, this is what you do. Like, no kidding.
- [33:37]
B
Which we appreciate. Right? That's what I want from you. Give me the, Give me the plan. Give me the play.
- [33:41]
C
Yeah.
- [33:42]
A
Give me the thing to do.
- [33:43]
C
Yeah. That's so great. That's great. You, you had mentioned loneliness earlier. I found this to be incredibly valuable. That first off, I have my business partners here, which are incredible. And then I have a, a men's group that I started. It's, it's a religious one, but we all get together and, and we work with each other and everybody finds so much value in it. And I don't think, I think generally speaking, just looking at the data, men don't have enough good men around them that they could work with and talk with. Because if I'm around men that I respect, they can tell me things that other people can't. I can hear things from. How important is that for men to be successful in life, to have that group of guys that, no, not knuckleheads, but people they actually trust and respect that they could bounce things off of.
- [34:29]
A
I think that's the difference between the light and the darkness, to be honest. Ed Milet wrote a book, you know, the Power of One More, and he wrote a whole chapter of, you know, you're three to five people in your circle. Like, you know, so your guys in your faith based group, I mean, that's gold, right? I mean, to have men like that in your life, to speak into your life like that, your group is your force multiplier. So if you have, if you have a group of friends like Lance does, right, who's speaking negativity and like, hey, man, just get over it. Put your head down, man up, grow a set of balls. Like, we all got these problems, like, just do it. Versus like, I guarantee, like when you're in that faith based conversation and a guy might open up about his marriage or he might open up about something, I guarantee, like the men who are in your circle probably just pour into that man, give him the blind spots that he might not be seeing, he's going to speak truth into him, he's probably going to be empathetic, going to meet him where he's at, all those different things. Is so important for a dude.
- [35:22]
C
I have a good example of that. I actually have a buddy who. He was struggling in his marriage, and he was going to a friend of his, venting to him. And this friend of his is like, oh, she's, you know, she's dumb. She doesn't deserve you, man. I can't believe she acted that way. And this, that, and the other. And I seen him, you know, and I could tell something was bothering me. I asked him, he tells me, and I know the guy that he asked. I'm like, really? You asked that guy? Like, that's the guy that, you know, he's in his mid-40s, never married, has no kids. Like, you know, you should probably ask a guy that you respect in that realm. And so we started talking, and he talked to my other buddy, and the advice was totally different. The advice was not like. And I think that's a good. That's a good gauge. Like, if you come to your. A buddy or somebody with some of your challenges, and if, like, yeah, dude, you should leave her or you should go, whatever. It's like, maybe I should check out, you know, talk to another guy that I respect.
- [36:13]
B
I think that's really difficult for a lot of men. At least I know in my 20s, this was a big challenge for me, was I was still attached to a lot of my, like, high school buddies. And when it's tough when you build a bond going, especially in a case like, where my. The childhood I had and I. I create. I very much so relate to the. What's the goodwill hunting, you know, scenario. Like, I had my. The brotherhood that I had built with the loyalty. Yeah, the loyalty. My family. I mean, I got loyalty tatted on the side of my rib cage. Like, that's how, like, that was. I so identify with that. And so, you know, I. I knew the. You're the average of the five guys. I know how important. But I couldn't see past that bond that I had because I. I almost considered them family. And it's like, there's no way I. I would cut that. But when I actually looked at kind of wherever. Where everyone's lives were at and asked myself, is that where I want to be, say, you know, down the road? And it was an easy answer. No, I don't. I don't want to be an average of that five. And so it was really difficult for me to. To. To do that. And I think a lot of times you think that when you. Maybe when you start to finally realize it, which is already a Challenge in itself. Then you go through another thing where it's like, I gotta go break up with these guys. And, you know, like, no, seriously, like, I mean, because when you hear that advice, they're like, you need to change your. Your circle of five. And it's like, well, you know what I'm gonna do? Tell Justin, sorry, we don't hang out no more on Sundays. Or like, what's this gonna be like now? I'll tell you the advice I give to younger guys that ask me this, and what I'd end up doing is instead of making it into, like, I have to break up with these guys. I just began filling my time with. With better men, with men that, like, that were seeking growth, that were doing the things in life that I want to. That I admired as fathers or leaders. And then it just became. It came less about I need to break up with these. These guys and more that I'm busy doing all these other things. Do you have that a lot? Is that common? How hard is that for guys?
- [38:08]
A
Yeah, that's a. That's a great point. So I'll get my. My circle of friends was very similar to yours, you know, and probably all of us, like, when we're in high school, college, like, we. We all have that commonality. We're all away from home in college, like, we all have that in common. We all go to the same school, probably studying similar stuff. So we have common ground with people. And normally, like, our younger friends, like, in college and high school, the things that we had in common, that, you know, the goofball things we do and that kind of thing, like bust each other's chops, like, that's the dynamic that usually carries into adulthood. But once we get into adulthood and we're family men, we need. We need.
- [38:42]
B
We.
- [38:42]
A
We need a different type of. We need complementary men in our life to speak into us. So, like, I still am friends with some of the guys that I went to high school and college with. We don't have conversations like this. But whenever I feel like, be like, hey, man, it's Monday Night Football. You guys want to go out and grab dinner and a few beers, watch the game and bust each other's chops, like, that's still fun, you know, every now and again. But if I want to have a serious conversation about something going on in my world, whether it's my kids, my faith, my marriage, or whatever, those are not the guys that I'm probably going to spend time with, I'm probably going to call up one of the like, like I'm in a, I'm in a Bible study myself, you know, and like I'm gonna go to those guys for stuff like that. I probably won't go to the other guys.
- [39:19]
B
I think it's so tough though because we also, there's also a dangerous part of that friend circle that I realized later that I didn't realize is typically the things that bond you at that age are a lot of like trauma and insecurity stuff. We share similar insecurities. We went through the same growing up and so we, we bonded and boy, unless you get lucky. And those four guys are very growth minded working on those insecurities and traumas and grow out of it. A lot of them get stuck in that and that it's really easy to get pulled back because there's that relatability and you're still, I mean, because all of us that have these insecurities and traumas when we were little, like they don't just go away. Like they're still there. You learn to, to see it coming or how to work with it or deal with it or grow from it, but they never go away. It's always, it's the part of your history. So if you stay connected too much to that group that you, you know, like I would do, justify the loyalty and the love that I have for them, you know, and not realize that a big part of the bond has a lot to do with this trauma and insecurity that went through. That can be crippling, man. It could keep a man in a, the same spot for decades if he doesn't figure that out.
- [40:30]
A
Oh, I agree.
- [40:30]
C
What's interesting.
- [40:31]
B
Oh yeah, I was just gonna say we get a lot of people kind of calling in that are new dads and they're kind of, they're looking for advice or just ways to, to better, you know, get ahead of it, so to speak.
- [40:44]
C
And, and you know what?
- [40:45]
B
They can. Obviously the communication part, what you're bringing up with, with your wife is, you know, all that leading into it's going to be super important. But what, what are like the, the few things that you want to, to convey to somebody like that, that you know, they're anticipating a newborn and what to kind of expect and how to kind of wrap their head around it.
- [41:06]
A
So what I always tell my new dads and this usually shocks them because they're like, well, what do I do when this kid comes? I was like, you're married first and you're a parent second. And they're like what? Because that can be triggering for some people. And I was like, the biggest mistake that a new dad will make and a new mom is they will slide that marriage on the back burner of. Yeah. And then the kids become that front burner. And then little by little, that's when that drift starts to kind of set in. Little by little, it just starts to chip away at that connection in their marriage. So I always tell a guy, I'm like, hey, man, you might be a new dad, but date nights are still a big deal, man. Make sure that you are still connecting with your wife every single day, right? And you got to have other conversations besides this baby. It's got to be about you guys as well. So I think knowing that, like, this is still your first priority, like, obviously you got this dependent baby, you know, that you got to take care of. But the other thing that I. That I think is really important too, and this is where I think a lot of young couples get. Get a little spun up, is you've got to identify who does what. And I know that that is not. That is not the sexiest conversation. No, that's not. That's not a fun one.
- [42:13]
C
Make it clear.
- [42:14]
A
But you gotta make it clear, because what happens is, is once. Once this kid comes in, suddenly there's expectations that both people have, and they're not usually sharing them, and they're not being fulfilled. And then that's when resentment sets in. So, like, getting those roles extremely right is so critical. So, like, for instance, like, my wife was like, hey, I'm. I'm gonna nurse, so I'm. I'm just gonna take the night shift. You're working, so I'll take the night shift. So she always got up, and I always. I. I rarely did, but that was what she. That's what we agreed on. Another thing, too, is like, so, like, for instance, when we had a new kid, and like, I'd be like, well, I'll tell you what, I will do all the grocery shopping, right? So, like, just, I. I know it's like the simplest things, and you're thinking like that. How does that gonna move the needle? But like, little tiny things like that. Who's gonna be cooking? Who's gonna be cleaning this? Who's gonna be getting up in the middle of night, who's gonna be taking the kid to daycare if they're gonna do that, all these different things, because those things just stack on top of each other. And before long, you get. You have a couple that is just.
- [43:17]
B
Infuriated I think those are, those are huge because I think there's a. They're a bit insidious because they, you think of them as so small. But then I think what it does is it builds resentment. Of course, I remember this happened in Katrina and I's relationship. For the most part, I'd say we, we fall into a pretty traditional house and. But there's, there's something that we learned about our characteristics. Very different. I am a bit OCD with like, how I like things clean. She could care less. You know, I'm saying it's like she, she's not messy, but she also saw a big deal. If the dishes don't get done right, then they'll get done tomorrow morning or whatever. Like that. That will drive me absolutely crazy. And so when we, before we had a kid, you know, she, she'd take care of it. When she'd take care of it, whatever. She knew that I cared about that. But it wasn't that big deal. Well, when we had a kid, that became more difficult.
- [44:02]
A
Oh yeah.
- [44:03]
B
You know what I'm saying? And so, so that becomes more difficult for. To execute that. And it becomes bigger problem for me as more days stack up and more times consistently of it not getting. And it's like I found myself getting so frustrated. I remember having this epiphany of like, if I, I care so much more about that, why am I, why am I, why am I not just taking care of it? She. She doesn't care about as much as I do. I care more. So why don't I just assert myself and do that? Normally when the perfect time is right after we get done with dinner anyways, where she takes my son up to go take his bath and read to him. And originally I would start to be kind of a part of that and, and feel like we both need to do all that together. But then that the dishes wouldn't get done and then I'd have resentment because it wasn't get done. It was just like, wait a second, we could totally divide and conquer in this situation. And it became this, like, it was. It made so much more peace in the house. It made me happier, made her happier. She loved coming down from, you know, the bath and the kitchen's already clean. But it's funny how something like that just, it's so little.
- [44:58]
A
So.
- [44:59]
B
Yeah, but it, it, like you said, it stacks. And it would be, it would be something that wouldn't. It wouldn't be an immediate issue. It would be this low level kind of resentment building of like, you know, how many days in a row am I have look at this dirty kitchen? And I'm frustrated. And meanwhile, I'm sure she's having a little resentment of me. Like, how much is he going to continue to make me feel bad when I'm doing all these things for our kids? And it's so crazy how solving that little bit, whether it's through communication or stepping up and all of a sudden that's never been a problem in the relationships. Right. A lot of times you think it's just going to take care of itself, but yeah. Clarity of roles and just what exactly you're going to do. Yeah, that's huge.
- [45:35]
C
Or we'll figure it out as we go along. There's an interesting data that I saw a long time ago and I've confirmed it now, looking at more data which connects the. How well a mother can. Mother is very closely connected to how well she feels taken care of by her husband or the father. So for new dads, how well you are with her Will has a huge impact on how well she is with the kids.
- [45:59]
B
How do they measure that? That's interesting.
- [46:01]
C
So moms with. In bad relationships or with absent fathers versus dads with absent relations, whatever, it's a much bigger impact on the. On the mom than it is on the father. So a big responsibility, like take care of your wife. The. And then she's a better mom. What.
- [46:17]
B
What has. What has coaching all these men taught you?
- [46:20]
A
Oh, man. That I can coach and sometimes I can't do it.
- [46:26]
B
Well, that's a coach. A lot of times we say that all the time about, you know, I'm a way better trainer than I am.
- [46:31]
C
You ever see yourself in a situation, you're like, what would I tell? I'm uncoachable.
- [46:35]
A
Oh, yeah. Like, only like every day. Even my kids are like, oh, yeah, dad edge.
- [46:40]
B
Huh?
- [46:43]
A
Thanks.
- [46:44]
B
They're at that teenage age now, too. Yeah.
- [46:46]
C
Do you. How so? I want to talk about some modern challenges that weren't necessarily huge challenges when we were maybe younger that, that now seem to have huge impacts on men.
- [46:57]
B
Yeah. How much does the phone make it an issue with.
- [47:00]
C
Yeah, so phone pornography, you know, video games. Like, are these having a negative impact on. On a man's ability to, you know, lead, be a husband, father?
- [47:11]
A
So the, the porn and video games for the dads or for the kids or.
- [47:14]
C
Yeah, for, for. Let's talk about.
- [47:16]
B
I mean, all the above, to be honest.
- [47:18]
C
Yeah.
- [47:18]
A
So, you know, I look at just all that stuff, you know, alcohol, video games, I think we all kind of do alcohol, video games, drugs, you know, like whatever it is for your phone, it's usually a comfort issue and I'm uncomfortable and I want to go do something to distract. Whether that's porn, whether it's video games, death. Scrolling on your phone, looking for the next political tweet, you know, pisses you off, that kind of thing. So, yeah, I mean, men are, you know, and women, like, all of us adults, like, we're, we have issues with that stuff, right? But I think if you ask most parents, we're like, man, I really don't want my kid like on their phone just scrolling. I don't want my kid on video games for like nine hours, like, stuff like that. So in order to do that, like we, we. In the book I talk, one of the tenets of leadership is the best lessons are caught, not taught. So I don't, I don't look at porn. I haven't for years. I'm not so great with my phone. I'll be the first to admit that one. Like, I really need to be better about that. Video games are not my thing. I don't drink, I don't, I don't do drugs. Like, it's just not my thing. I do like, fitness is kind of like my outlet. But I think for men to have an outlet, you know, is really freaking important, man. Like, they've got to have self care. They've got to have something that, that they can, that can anchor their, their stress. I think that's really important. But I think for men, you know, the porn thing, I had this client, man, like, you know, and I used to like, porn was my vice forever. And I start, I did a 90 day challenge just to see if, you know, like, let me, let me do away with this for 90 days and see what happens. I couldn't believe some of the things that I experienced. So, like, I found myself way more productive in the workplace. I found myself way more intentional with my kids, into intimacy with my wife. And this one surprised me. I was like, everyone says sex gets better without porn. And I'm like, I don't know if that's true. It is insanely true. Yeah, like, it's insanely true. So I think that that's good news. Like some of these vices that are out there, getting away from them, you're going to reap some tremendous benefits. But, you know, so you've got to be. I had this client, like I said one time where, you know, most guys I think don't really view porn as something that's harmful. Right. It's like, I mean I used to justify it as like, well, I don't want to bother her with, with my, you know, high drive so you know, give her a break. But like I had this client once who went into the bathroom, had his phone on and he had no idea that it was hooked to the Bluetooth speaker in his living room. And a nine year old daughter, seven year old daughter, five year old son. And the porn just came blaring through the speaker. He had no idea. He came out and his wife was like, do you have any idea what just happened? And he was like, we talking about. She was like, we heard everything that you were watching. I had to turn the speaker off. Your kids heard everything. And I was like, so that mortified. That guy was like, so like I think that that's, I mean while, that, that's a slip up. But his kids will never forget that. His wife will never forget that. He will never forget that. So I think that's one of the things of, that's not usually on a guy's radar of like, well, what if my kids check out my browser? What if my kids pick up my phone and they see the last thing that I looked at. What if it's hooked up to a Bluetooth speaker and I didn't know it? You know, it's like, how do we have those conversations about porn with our kids if we get caught?
- [50:41]
B
Yeah, you know, I feel like that one is easier conversation than probably the just overall addiction to cell phone and maybe even gaming. Because I think a lot of people would game would use the justification of gaming as their outlet. Yeah, a lot of guys that maybe don't work out or don't play sports or don't do that, they're gonna go like, well that's my, that's my outlet, man. That's. I mean I have buddies that, that's what they would. That's their time when they get the kids in bed. It's like, this is what I do, you know, like that. And so how do you handle that? And. Or is it much of a problem? Do you think that in moderation it's not that big of a deal or do you find that it does cause problems in relationships more so than not?
- [51:20]
A
That's a great question. I think anything in moderation is pretty okay. So if you got a buddy who's like getting on video games and it's really not interfering with a whole lot of stuff, then that's fine. The problem Is. Is that. I mean, you guys know, this is probably better than anybody. Human beings just have a really big problem usually with moderation. You know, we especially things that were.
- [51:39]
B
Made to be addictive, right?
- [51:40]
A
Things that bring us comfort, joy, happiness, those types of things or distraction. Like, we, we have a tendency to dive into that and it's. It kind of. It's kind of sneaky how much we do it.
- [51:50]
B
I think that's the key right there is to. Because that's, I think that's a great way to position it because I agree. I think that if you were a video game guy and, you know, once a weekend, you. It's when you and your best friends link up online, it's your chance to. And it's kind of killing. It's also building the relationships with, with close friends, but you also being honest with yourself because it's rarely that most the guys I know that game, it's like they really like, oh, yeah, it's a part of life. It's like every day for. I mean, it was for me when in my. In my 20s, it was a. Every day after work, couldn't wait to get home to link up with my buddy. And we would play for two, three, four, sometimes five hours into the night. And then on weekends, you know, we'd plan a whole day around getting together and running it on all three TVs. So it wasn't like, oh, I kind of did it in moderation. It was like a part of my life. And so I think being honest with yourself is like, is this an addiction or is this something that I occasionally do with my buddies is the right way to position?
- [52:46]
C
Larry, what are the characteristics of men who tend to be more successful when they're tackling this issue versus men that struggle more? Do you see, like, when you talk to a client, can you tell right.
- [52:57]
B
Away, are you like, guys going to be.
- [52:59]
C
We have more hope with this guy just because of these particular characteristics.
- [53:03]
A
So I think so characteristics, like for guys that I've seen be successful, number one, they're coachable. So they, they, they just, they're not.
- [53:14]
C
Defensive right out the gate.
- [53:15]
A
They're not defensive, they're coachable. You know, they, they really take feedback well. So I think that's one thing. They're. They're an executor. So they implement, right? Because I hold my guy. We hold our guys accountable. You got to execute, you got to implement. If you're not doing that, this. None of this is going to go anywhere. But I also think too, that a Guy needs to have patience, patience with himself and patience with whatever situation he's, he's, you know, dealing with. Unfortunately, a lot of times it's. It's not unfortunate. But like I always tell guys, if I, if you can, if I can get to you six months before you get to me, we'll usually have a better shot at whatever you're trying to tackle. Because usually what a guy will do is he will wait until there is an absolute crisis.
- [53:58]
C
You're a last resort.
- [53:59]
A
Yeah. Like, hey, my wife just rolled over this morning and told me she didn't want to be married to me anymore. I'm like, I wish we would have talked six months ago. Because statistics show that if a woman says, I don't want to be married to you anymore, I don't know if I love you anymore, I don't want to be intimate with you.
- [54:12]
B
She's already.
- [54:13]
A
She's been thinking that for two years. That's a long time. Yeah. And when she says it out loud, usually her mind is already made up. But you can still, believe it or not, you can still recover. I mean, like, like my one client did. But usually if I can tell a guy, if you can take action sooner rather than later. Later. So if you see, like, these symptoms start to happen, do not ignore them. Like, take action. Do not wait until your wife doesn't want to be with you anymore.
- [54:39]
C
I heard a great analogy. Do you remember the movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding? Remember that? There was a famous line in there where the mom says, yes, the. The. The husband is the head of the household, but the mother is the neck. And, and wherever we turn the head, that's where. And the reason why he was illustrating this, he said, women or wives will present problems. Like, and they're real. Like, here's an issue. The kids are not getting enough attention, or there's too much TV in the house, or I notice you're on your phone too much, or. And they'll start. And it's really just, let's talk about this issue. And I don't know what the solution is, but I want to talk about this. And I think a lot of times managers are like, eh, it's not an issue. We're fine. You're just whatever. Rather than kind of taking seriously, like, okay, she has her finger on the pulse of things differently or maybe even more sensitively than I do. So let's take this seriously.
- [55:29]
A
Yeah, I think so. Whenever there's feedback like that, you know, I think it's. It's in our Nature to want to get defensive or say, that's not that big of a deal.
- [55:37]
C
Yeah.
- [55:37]
A
The thing that I always coach my guys to do, and like, I said everything that I coach to. I was. I used to be terrible at. And I still face plan to this day, you know, but is you've got to get really curious, like, curiosity instead of. Usually what. What happens is as soon as something like that is said, it triggers defensiveness.
- [55:57]
C
Right.
- [55:57]
A
And you. The other person doesn't matter if it's the wife or the husband. They're not listening anymore. And then we want to defend versus, like, we want to think about, like. All right, let me think about this for a second. Is there truth to what she is saying? Or maybe there's a perspective here that I don't see. Right. So I'll get really curious. So if Jess is like, hey, you know, I've. I've noticed you've been on your phone a lot and you've been really distracted. And I'd be like. I'd think about that and be like, there's probably some truth to that. I'd be like, well, how's that impacting you? Like, tell me what. What are you seeing and what are you feeling? Or what do you think the kids are seeing and feeling? And then she'll describe it, and I'll be like, damn, I didn't really see that. You know, I didn't really notice that. So, you know, the first question is, is there truth to that? And then get really curious and ask what the impact is.
- [56:42]
B
Do you ever. Or have you ever had to either fire a client that hired you or tell that a man that you married the wrong partner?
- [56:53]
A
Yeah, both.
- [56:55]
B
Oh, tell me.
- [56:56]
A
Yeah, so I. I've worked with guys, you know, so, like, for instance, there was a woman, or there. There was a guy I was working with and his wife. I mean, she was. She was done. Like, done done. He still wanted to work together. And I told him I was like, there's gonna be two outcomes to this, you know, coaching journey with me. Number one, you'll get her back. That's one. Or number two, you're gonna realize that.
- [57:21]
B
Wasn'T the right one.
- [57:21]
A
He wasn't the right one. And by doing the work, like, usually the. I've had a handful of clients be like, she's not for me. And then once they. They realize that, once they go through their own personal growth and they're at peace with it.
- [57:33]
C
Yeah.
- [57:34]
A
And that. But I'll tell you, man, there have been times where, like, I'll coach a guy and he's doing all the right things and his wife is just being disrespectful, emasculating, just treat him like garbage. And in those times where I'm like, man, you really have done everything here. Do you really want to be with this person? And then usually it's their decision. You're like, man, I don't know if I do. Like, you know, and they come to usually that realization, but it's their call.
- [58:01]
B
I mean, that's good to hear, because I. I believe that that happens more often than I think. We talk about where we. People get married and they married someone kind of similar to what I was telling you about friends, how they're formed, right, through trauma and insecurities. You attach yourself to this partner who has similar insecurities or had similar traumas, and that person only exacerbates that thing that you haven't grown past. And it's like, it probably couldn't be a worse partnering for you, although in the moment, because maybe lust was involved and whatever else you thought that it was, or a lot of times you see these explosions that then end up turning into, like, passionate sex after makeup sex afterwards. And so they. They translate that into, oh, I deeply love this person. When it's like, no, you have this very toxic relationship that you probably don't belong together.
- [58:55]
C
You know what's interesting about that? I looked at this data recently, and over 94% of divorces are labeled as no fault, which is like, there's no major thing that's happening. There's no abuse. There's no. It's just. Just like we just drifted apart. And then when you look at the data on husbands and wives that perform that are consistent with positive practices, I'll use one example. Couples that pray together every single night. This was a big one. I saw this study. There's a couple studies on this divorce rate. 1%. 1%.
- [59:30]
A
Wow.
- [59:31]
C
So. And now I think what that points to is because you could get together for the wrong reasons, but who's the same person when they're 30 and 40 and 50. And so there's a lot of skills and things that you can learn and work through as long as you're both willing, because nobody's the same or you shouldn't be the same 10, 20, 30 years down the road. So I just. Just to give people some hope that there are some positive. And I know you have lots of stories of situations where it looked like it was done and now it's way better.
- [60:02]
A
It Is luckily, you know, knock on wood. Most of the time when I'm working with a situation or a client, like, from the get go, I'll be like, I think this will work out. And sometimes I'm like, this won't work out. I've been more pleasantly surprised by the times that it has worked out. And it's been a great experience. Going back to what you just said, though, 1% of couples that pray together will stay together. There was another study that was done, and it kind of goes in line with what couples do right together. So everyone knows that the, the divorce rate's about 51%, right. It's like literally half the people that walk down the aisle get divorced. Right. They did a study about 10 years ago, thousands of couples, because they wanted to study where married couples at, the couples that actually stay together. What does that look like? And the study came back that couples live in three different camps, like, and they're divided up actually equally, which was shocking. So one third of couples that stay together can actually identify their marriage as, like, this is working. This is great. Like, I love her, she loves me. We've got a connection. It's awesome. We're great parents. All these different things. And there's a common denominator there that I'll get back to. Then there's the next 1/3. This is the stagnant, more settled camp. And there, it's a lot like Lance. Like, they're not going anywhere, but they certainly don't have a connection. It's more like just high level managerial things.
- [61:27]
B
Like, we do life together.
- [61:29]
A
Life together. We're friends and. Yeah, but there's very little to no intimacy and tolerate each other. Yeah, we tolerate each other, but we're not going anywhere. The last one third, complete physical and emotional disconnect. These are two strangers living underneath the exact same house, probably living two separate lives. And there's two reasons they don't get divorced. Too financially devastating or the perception of we got to stay together for the kids. But the common denominator with that first camp is a lot like what you just said. Both couples or one person will learn the skills of marriage. They learn communication, they learn intimacy. They learn how to align as parents. All these different things because they know we're not going to leave our marriage to wing it. We're actually going to do this right.
- [62:10]
C
Do you encourage premarital counseling or men come to you before they get married, before running into these issues? Hey, talk to me first and let's get these skills set before you Know you have to come to me when the. You know what has hit the fan.
- [62:24]
A
I. I really wish man, I could get to more dudes before they get married.
- [62:28]
B
I feel like that would be a great offer that would for you to have because I And I And I think a good time to do it. I feel. I do feel like this generation coming up. Yeah. Is. Is a more.
- [62:39]
C
The more open to this.
- [62:40]
B
I do. And I think that if more would had opera had somebody who could lead that where you could teach these skills before you walk down the aisle versus walking down the aisle and then trying to figure the. These skills after hits the fan.
- [62:53]
C
And again, just to offer some hope. One thing that men do pretty well, again the data supports us is we can be pretty. If we're focused, we can be pretty productive in one direction. And I just don't think a lot of men. I know most men before they get married don't have any kind of coaching like that. They don't have a group. They don't have a. There's no training. It's like your training exist is media. Oh, that's what marriage looks like. Or what my parents were like, which might not be the best example. So I can only imagine how successful. How much more successful a couple would be. If a man, you know, before he got married or he's engaged and he's. He's in a course or he's working with someone like you, it's like, all right, here's what you're gonna encounter. Here's what it looks like.
- [63:34]
A
Yeah.
- [63:35]
C
And here are the skills you need to develop and work on.
- [63:37]
A
I. So my wife and I, we did marriage coaching before we got married. It was through our church, and it was six weeks long. We had another couple. They were in their 40s, they had four kids, and every time we went to their house, it was. It was a new topic about marriage. So, like, one week we'd spend on parenting. The next one it'd be sex. The next week it'd be finances. You know, that type of stuff. And I remember being just 28 years old, and I'm like, I remember getting done with that prep, and I'm like, I feel like that wasn't enough. Like, and because what I realized during that prep is I was like, holy crap, I'm really not prepared at all. Like, I had my assumptions and my perceptions, and so did she, and they were off. Right? But those six weeks, we did get some alignment. But I. I mean, we both found ourselves like, man, this needs to be a little Bit more robust if there's anything like this.
- [64:24]
C
Yeah. And I think a good group of, of male friends that are older than you.
- [64:27]
A
Right.
- [64:28]
C
And experienced would probably do that for you.
- [64:31]
A
I. I think, yeah, people who are ahead of you in life, you know, it's kind of like what you were talking about. It's like the, the friends in the 20s. But, you know, I think if you want a good marriage, go talk to somebody who's got one. If you want to have a deeper faith, go talk to someone who's got a deep faith. You know, it's like, go, go talk to the people that are emulating the things that you want.
- [64:50]
C
That's awesome.
- [64:51]
B
Well, I think, Larry, you're the guy to go build that.
- [64:53]
A
So, yeah, come out with a premarital.
- [64:55]
B
Course and we're gonna put that on you guys. So by the next time you come here again, you better have that ready. I think it's a great idea.
- [65:01]
C
Well, Larry, I, I apologize because I have a hard stop. But man, this was awesome. Great conversation. Super valuable. You've got a great podcast so people can find your podcast, the dad Edge, and then where they find you for your coaching.
- [65:15]
A
If you guys go to the dad edge.com forward/mastermind, that that's the easiest spot for that. And then there's one other place I'd like to point the audience if you go to the dad edge.com legendarybook. That's the pre order landing page, even though you can still buy it on Amazon. But I'm giving away two courses that I created. One is Marriage Prep. I'm kidding.
- [65:36]
One is called Creating More Patience. Teach a guy in 45 minutes how to just be a more patient, resilient father. And then the marriage skills. Creating an extraordinary marriage through intimacy and attraction. There's 11 skills in there on how to be a Create a better Marriage. So I'm giving those two courses away free. If they buy the book for 28 bucks and I send it in the.
- [65:56]
C
Mail to them, that's great.
- [65:57]
B
That's awesome.
- [65:57]
C
Thank you so much.
- [65:58]
B
Appreciate the work that you're doing, brother.
- [65:59]
C
Appreciate it.
- [65:59]
B
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