2806: The BEST form of Strength Training for Women is Powerlifting. Challenge Me!

Summary

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Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth – Episode 2806

"The BEST form of Strength Training for Women is Powerlifting. Challenge Me!"

Release Date: March 4, 2026
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge

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Episode Overview

This episode centers around an energetic debate: Is powerlifting the ideal form of strength training for women? Sal throws down the gauntlet, challenging anyone to contest his provocative claim. The Mind Pump crew dives deeply into the differences between powerlifting, bodybuilding, and CrossFit, analyzing each through the lenses of body image, community, longevity, and overall impact on fitness. Throughout, the hosts draw from personal experience, professional anecdotes, and live coaching calls to illustrate their insights.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Sal’s Provocation: Why Powerlifting for Women?

• Sal’s Stance: “The best form of strength training for women, for most women, the vast majority of women, is powerlifting. Challenge me. I dare you.” (Sal, 04:23)
• Rationale:
  • Body Image: Unlike bodybuilding, powerlifting isn’t focused on appearance, offering a healthy shift away from society’s intense pressure on women’s looks.
  • Strength Focus: Powerlifting emphasizes performance—progress is measured by getting stronger, not by chasing a certain physique.
  • Community: Powerlifting offers a uniquely supportive environment open to all skill levels, where effort and progress are universally celebrated.

2. Comparative Analysis: Powerlifting vs. Bodybuilding vs. CrossFit

• Community: Adam argues CrossFit may actually have the strongest community aspect.
  • “If those are like the main attributes that we're seeking, then I don't think that powerlifting wins in the community department. I think CrossFit wins in the community department.” (Adam, 07:29)
• Longevity & Sustainability:
  • Bodybuilding leads on longevity and injury prevention if competition is removed.
  • Powerlifting delivers base-level maximal strength, which can then be sculpted or diversified.
  • CrossFit (when stripped of its competitive, intensity-driven edge) provides functional longevity and movement across multiple planes, but programming flaws can limit its benefits.
• Body Image Risks: Bodybuilding can drive unhealthy body image obsessions due to its focus on aesthetics.
  • “That's the problem with bodybuilding is it's so much focused on image. And ... it drives you in the wrong direction always.” (Adam, 15:00)
• Diet & Nutrition Acumen: Bodybuilding is unmatched in teaching detailed, practical nutrition knowledge.
  • “Diet-wise, bodybuilding lifestyle, you learn the most about diet.” (Sal, 10:10)

3. Best Practice: Programming a Fitness Journey

• Optimal Sequence (Sal’s Suggestion):

  1. Start with Powerlifting: Learn the foundational lifts, focus on performance, and avoid excessive attention on aesthetics or diet restriction.
  2. Move to CrossFit: Expand movement capacity, build stamina and mobility, and embrace functional fitness in a community context.
  3. Transition to Bodybuilding: With the foundation of strength and functionality, focus can shift to sculpting and advanced nutrition, with less risk of body image dysfunction.
  • “I would start with powerlifting... Then I would move to CrossFit... Then the end, I would go bodybuilding. Cause by this point, I've Built a solid, secure foundation.” (Sal, 21:36)

• Programming Perspective (Justin):

  • Start with strength (powerlifting), move to hypertrophy/body awareness (bodybuilding), and finish with the high-risk/high-expression of skills (CrossFit).

4. Coaching Philosophy: Embrace Nuance and Avoid Dogma

• Encourage exposure to all three modalities—each brings unique value.
• A well-rounded coach masters:
  1. Teaching fundamental powerlifting movements
  2. In-depth nutrition (from bodybuilding)
  3. Mobility and functional movement (from CrossFit-like training)
• “Those are the three… If you have elite level of those three, you are… Who are you not able to completely help?” (Adam, 32:06)

5. The Dangers of Camp Mentality

• The Mind Pump team resists aligning with any one methodology, advocating instead for flexibility and continuous learning.
• Sal: “If I never trained a lot of people, I'd probably be much more in a camp. But you work with enough people, enough different personalities… you start to see the value in all this stuff.” (Sal, 29:58)

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On Why Powerlifting Works for Women:
  "It's very much not focused on how you look... especially women, because it redirects it more to strength. And they're constantly told that their value is how they look."
  — Sal, 05:57

• On the Evolution of Diet & Training Knowledge:
  "Before the wellness space, it was the bodybuilding space that understood wellness. They were the first ones to talk about gluten and sugar and processed food..."
  — Sal, 10:46

• On Community Power:
  "This is the first time [referring to a friend in CrossFit] he’s ever been super consistent. And it has nothing to do with the programming. Has everything to do with that... great community."
  — Sal, 19:09

• On Progression and Avoiding Injury:
  "Powerlifting movements, as great as they are, are severely limiting... injury becomes an issue with too much focus, too long."
  — Sal, 11:36

• On the Final Goal:
  “Now go spend the rest of your life in bodybuilding and just incorporate those other things whenever you want to and need to, and you're set for life, in my opinion.”
  — Adam, 24:08

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Coaching Calls & Real-Life Applications

Bert from Florida (59:52)

• Long-term lifter, struggling with gaining muscle without excess fat.
• Advice: Bump calories by 500, maintain strength training regimen, focus on progressive overload. Try MAPS Symmetry for addressing imbalances and further gains.
• “I would immediately have you go up 500 calories.” (Sal, 63:27)

Latasha from Tennessee (74:28)

• Recent personal training graduate, transitioning from a year of online coaching.
• Maintains a high-protein, balanced diet; seeks validation on program sequencing and progression.
• Advice: You're doing great! Soon move from strict tracking toward intuitive eating. Try MAPS 15 Symmetry if addressing imbalances.
• “This is a great place for you, Latasha… this is going to make you a good trainer because your clients are going to feel all the stuff as well.” (Sal, 86:05)

Alexandra from New York (88:12)

• Ex-athlete, struggling with chronic binge/restrict cycles and perfectionism.
• Runs 15–20 miles/week, lifts 4x weekly; chronically under-eats (1400–1600 cal).
• Advice: The root problem is not lack of knowledge or willpower, but self-shame, over-control, and underfeeding. Next step is to practice self-grace, journal through the urges, and gradually train less/eat more, ideally with ongoing coaching support.
• "The root of this is that shame spiral, and we need to interrupt that... You can't hate yourself into better health." (Sal, 92:48, 99:09)

Joe from Texas (104:15)

• Cop with genetically muscular legs, frustrated about fit and balance.
• Advice: It's fine to “skip leg day” frequently if legs are already strong and outpacing other muscle groups. Cut frequency, maintain total-body integrity, redistribute volume for upper body development.

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• [04:23]–[14:12] – Sal’s Case for Powerlifting & Benefits for Women
• [14:12]–[25:36] – Comparative analysis: bodybuilding, CrossFit, optimal progression
• [25:36]–[37:52] – Coaching philosophy & the value of cross-training
• [59:52]–[73:03] – Caller Bert: Calorie intake, program progression
• [74:28]–[87:40] – Caller Latasha: Navigating program choices, nutrition progression
• [88:12]–[103:28] – Caller Alexandra: Breaking binge/restrict, psychological coaching
• [104:15]–[108:23] – Caller Joe: Individual muscle genetics, when to skip leg day

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Episode Takeaways

• Powerlifting creates a healthy, empowering entry point for women and many newcomers to strength training.
• A holistic journey through powerlifting, CrossFit-style functionalism, and bodybuilding is the ideal path for comprehensive strength, health, and sustainability.
• Coaches and trainees alike benefit from not identifying too tightly with any one training "camp"—the future is hybrid, nuanced, and client-centric.
• Real breakthroughs—for muscle or mindset—start with self-compassion, honest reflection, and the courage to try new approaches, even when they’re uncomfortable.

Transcript

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Sal Destefano]

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[Narrator/Host Intro]

With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer

[Sal Destefano]

and Justin Andrews, you just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today we had callers call in. We got to coach them live on air with their health and fitness. But this was after the Intro. Today's intro, 55 minutes long. In the intro, we talk about fat loss and muscle gain and strength training, overall fitness. We talk about family life. It's a good time if you want to be on an episode like this where you call in, we get to help you out live on air. Send your question to mplivecaller.com now. This episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Organifi. They make organic supplements for health, wellness and performance. One of the more popular supplements are the Shilajit Gummies. Shilajit has been shown in studies to boost testosterone in men to help with fat loss and muscle gain and recovery and overall wellness, both in men and women. This is the real deal. It's not lab shilajit. It's real organic shilajit. Go check them out. Go to organifi.com mindpump that's O R G-A-N-I F I-.com mindpump Use the code mindpump. Get 20% off. This episode is also brought to you by Olipop. This is a wonderful substitute to soda and it tastes delicious. Almost no sugar, no artificial sweeteners. It's like a delicious, healthy soda. This is the one that we drink at my house all the time. When you want to drink something that tastes great but it's not going to be really bad for you, go check them out. We got a hookup for you. Go to drinkollipop.com mindpump you can get a free can of Olipop. Here's what you do. You buy any two cans of Olipop in the store, they'll pay you back for one of them. Again, it's drinkollipop.com mindpump we also have a brand new workout program bundle called the spring bundle. We've got Maps, symmetry, Maps prime in there. Plus we've included the advanced training techniques guide. All of that together. All of that over 50% off, 147. You get map, symmetry, Maps prime, and the advanced training techniques guide. Go check it out. Go to Maps March. Here comes the show.

[Adam Schafer]

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[Caller Bert]

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[Adam Schafer]

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[Caller Bert]

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[Sal Destefano]

All right, real quick.

[Justin Andrews]

If you love us like we love you, why not show up by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear over atmypumpstore.com. i'm talking right now.

[Adam Schafer]

Hit pause.

[Justin Andrews]

Head on over to my pump store dot com. That's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Sal Destefano]

The best form of strength training for women, for most women, the vast majority of women, is powerlifting. Challenge me. I dare you.

[Justin Andrews]

Ooh, Powerlifting for real.

[Adam Schafer]

I want to make. I'm going to say bodybuilding, bro.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Well, let me tell you where I came from, where I'm coming from with this. And then I think this will be a good discussion.

[Adam Schafer]

No, sorry, guys. I mean, somebody out there is saying that we.

[Sal Destefano]

Sure. For sure, sure. So let's say it's a great discussion. So ran into a friend of mine at the gym this morning and she's relatively new to strength training. So she hasn't been doing this for years. It's been less than a year. She's been getting fit, getting into it, tracking, macros, the whole thing. And I walk by her working out. Okay, so she's bench pressing.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

And like I said, she's relatively new. She has like £135 on the bar. So I walk by, I see her, I say hi to her, I doing a set, and then I'm registering my head, like, what is that? Someone needs to tell her she's really strong, you know, So I go over to her and I talk to her. I'm like, have you ever thought about powerlifting? She's like, no. I'm like, I think that, I mean,

[Adam Schafer]

you have a. Oh, she's not even a powerlifter.

[Sal Destefano]

No, no, no. She's just working out on her own. She's. In fact, she worked out with a trainer for a little while. Like, this is totally new to her. So then I'm thinking about it and you know, powerlifting is so good for women in particular for a few different reasons. Number one, of all of the strength sports, and there's other ones that are, that are like this, but powerlifting is not. It's very. Not body image focused. It's very much not focused on how you look. Right. Which benefits a lot of people, but

[Justin Andrews]

especially women, because it redirects it more to strength.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And they're constantly told that their value is how they look and they pursue fitness for the look. I know this is true for men as well, but women are especially hammered with this message that's all about how you look. Then number two, it's about getting strong. And it's hard to starve yourself and under eat and over train and over cardio.

[Justin Andrews]

It doesn't move the needle.

[Sal Destefano]

You're not getting stronger. So if you're focused on powerlifting getting stronger, that tends to correct a lot of those other things. And then lastly, I was thinking about community. And I'm thinking, you know, here's this young woman, she's getting into fitness, she's starting to lift weights. What a great community to be a part of. It's so supportive. It's like one of the community. I've never. It's one of the best communities I've ever witnessed where you could be old, young, you could be a beginner, you could be objectively strong. Objectively not strong. And everybody is like, you could do it. This is awesome. And it's just like really supportive. So when I combine that with some of the struggles that women tend to be uniquely challenged with, I think like, this is a great. I don't think it's the be all, end all, but I think it's the best.

[Adam Schafer]

So this is an interesting argument. So if we were to take like the three, like most popular, like CrossFit, powerlifting and bodybuilding.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And you were to take. So let's just say we're going to argue those three and then we're going to say things like, like you said body image, strength, community, sculpting the body, community. And we were to take each one. Longevity, I wouldn't give. Yeah, longevity, there's.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, you got to think of everything.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, actually. Right, right. So longevity, I think absolutely should be in there. I, so if those are like the main attributes that we're seeking, then I don't think that powerlifting wins in the community department. I think CrossFit wins in the community department. So I think they, they, they, they beat them.

[Sal Destefano]

They definitely have a great argument.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh yeah, I definitely have a great. As much as none of us here are Pro, Pro, Big CrossFit, that was their big sell. Yeah, like that. And I mean, it's very obvious to me, like almost everybody I've ever tried to talk out of CrossFit, that's the number one reason. Yeah, they're like, I love my community, I love people. And normally that's what I, I would normally go, hey, we'll keep doing it, then just try and modify this. And I try and modify things. So I think they win there. Longevity, I think bodybuilding wins.

[Justin Andrews]

I agree.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, so I also think bodybuilding wins on sculpting now. Body image wins for powerlifting, for sure. Like, because, and, and the way you presented it, I think that's a fair argument because in our experience, you know, I think especially women, I think get marketed to and have been marketed to for a very long time. This, you know, skinny. Yeah, yeah, Be smaller. Look, I think that's changing, I think, and I actually credit CrossFit for a lot of that because I think you started to see these women with like, shape and strength to them that has gotten, I think being a strong or a muscle mommy has become more popular. But if you ask, I mean, I don't know, I'm now if I, if, if I could take the competition out of all three of them. So no, no powerlifting competition, no CrossFit competition, but just the style of training. I go bodybuilding all day because I definitely think that the competition of bodybuilding would lose for me. For the, for the diet aspect.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, because you, well, you mean the body image.

[Adam Schafer]

The body image and the diet aspect both. You, you, you create such a bad relationship with food, with the having to track every single macro and diet to an extreme that you don't feel good even when you're working out. You have to push beyond that to get up on stage and present and actually win. So I think if you take the competition out of it and just say, hey, I'm going to train a bodybuilder style, I would argue that that is the number one.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, so here's where I'll actually disagree with you and I think it's going to be in a way that's going to surprise you. I'm thinking of the community and less of the competition. Like a powerlifting gym, not necessarily competing or a CrossFit gym or a bodybuilding gym, but the competition puts a whole nother, whole nother spin.

[Adam Schafer]

They all have that.

[Sal Destefano]

But diet wise bodybuilding lifestyle, you learn the most about diet. Now if it's body image focused, that could go in a wrong direction. But people who body build and train in that way, nutritionally, they know diet. Powerlifters, you don't know diet?

[Adam Schafer]

No, you can get away.

[Sal Destefano]

They typically don't know diet.

[Adam Schafer]

Energy on powerlifting, so long as you're well fed, you can perform. In fact, bottom line, there's no in

[Sal Destefano]

fact the criticisms and the opposite is that they go and eat too much garbage, whatever, right?

[Adam Schafer]

Because they realize that man, when they're super filled up with glycogen and full on calories, they lift really good.

[Sal Destefano]

Before the wellness space, it was the bodybuilding space that understood wellness. They were the first ones to talk about gluten and sugar and processed food versus it was actually bodybuilders that were talking about this stuff before. I mean there's videos of Gaspari, Rich Gaspari, he's like a bodybuilder in the 80s who was talking about gluten and how that affected water retention on his body and processed. This is back in the 80s, if you said gluten in the 80s anywhere, people would have thought he made up a word. Like nobody even knew what that was, for example. So I think for diet understanding, bodybuilding crushes all of them in terms of supportive community. I'll go with powerlifting. Here's another thing though powerlifting is not good at is the powerlifting movements, as great as they are, are severely limiting.

[Adam Schafer]

Way limited.

[Sal Destefano]

Severely limiting.

[Adam Schafer]

Even more limited than bodybuilding. Whoa way.

[Justin Andrews]

The bodybuilding longevity to. It's pretty slim but I do feel like it just destroys all of them in terms of base level strength and like starting point.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

So I would, I would make an argument. We start there. I know you can make an argument for bodybuilding in terms of filling your muscles, but for me overall output matters most and then we can build and tweak and sculpt, you know, from there.

[Adam Schafer]

The irony of all this, in my opinion is that none of us are making the argument for CrossFit yet. I think if CrossFit was done in a non competitive type of format, the, the type of exercise, then it'd be functional fitness. It'd be the most. It would be. Exactly.

[Sal Destefano]

Well that's where the term came from.

[Adam Schafer]

It would be.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, they just ran away from it.

[Adam Schafer]

It would be the most functional and it would be the most beneficial of longevity because I mean throwing and, and the different planes you move in and sled dragging and jumping and like so many. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

If you take the extreme intensity.

[Adam Schafer]

The problem is that it's programmed in a class.

[Justin Andrews]

It became dysfunctional.

[Sal Destefano]

Yes, fitness. But if you take the, the, you know, the ethos of CrossFit, like the baseline ethos is physical performance, balance. Do you have stamina? Do you have strength, do you have power, do you have movement? CrossFit from there they crush, they do great with that. Whereas powerlifting is very limited bodybuilding. Not as limited, but also limited. But I will say this functional training has its roots in bodybuilding. Now people are going to be like what? Bodybuilders didn't come at it from the same perspective. They weren't thinking functional, they were thinking symmetry, balance.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So they always had an. Their mentality was always don't have a part of my body that is underdeveloped or not in balance with the others. Right now. They didn't have a full understanding of what that meant. But their understanding is what led to this idea of, oh, I got to train all these different ways. Powerlifting is very limited. I mean you're three lifts and then everything else is to get better at those three lifts. It's very sagittal plane and if you pursue it for too long with too high of a focus, injury becomes.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I feel like bodybuilding stumbles across functional training because of trying to hit different angles.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Justin Andrews]

And so it's like, you know, they find their way into these body positions that are very functional, you know, eventually, but it's still very focused on like, where can I. I feel and squeeze and get a different aspect of the muscle to grow and develop totally.

[Sal Destefano]

But you want to talk about community, go into today a bodybuilding gym. Imagine the person I'm thinking of, the avatar is a woman who wants to get fit going to a bodybuilding gym, a powerlifting gym or a CrossFit gym. The powerlifting. Think of the average woman is going to have this community and the style of training that's going to move her the furthest away from these roadblocks that women tend to run into. CrossFit can do the same thing. But CrossFit I don't think is as effective as powerlifting. Because there's an element of CrossFit.

[Adam Schafer]

No, not at all. I don't think intensity. I think it's last place for

[Sal Destefano]

the three of those. But bodybuilding's got this environment of look at yourself, look in the mirror 100%.

[Adam Schafer]

I lose that argument all day. I know I do. That's the problem with bodybuilding is it's so much focused on image. And since I think most our clients, I mean, we spent most of our career still to this day, I mean, it's why we don't use transformation photos for the business is we've stuck our ground or stood our ground for a very long time on trying to get the average person to get away from measuring their success purely off of how they look. I get it. I told. Of course I get it. But if that's your main focus, the average person, it drives you in the wrong direction always. And so. And it ends up, 90 of the time ends up being an unhealthy addiction or issue or a body image issue. And so for that reason, I think powerlifting lays one of the best bases. Like, right. So if I like I have a fresh young lady who is not. Doesn't know any of it. She doesn't know anything.

[Justin Andrews]

Super fresh.

[Adam Schafer]

Doesn't know any of the.

[Sal Destefano]

The fresh to lifting weights.

[Adam Schafer]

Fresh, clean, fresh descriptor. Got me. So you know and has no idea what those modalities are. Right, Right. And I, I have the opportunity to enter, introduce her to one of the three. It makes the most sense to introduce and also for another reason too to powerlifting. To get your argument back up. Your argument is it simplifies. It's like these three lifts Will take, yes, take you so far. And there are, are so fundamental to any. Like let's say you wanted to go do CrossFit later or you wanted to do bodybuilding.

[Sal Destefano]

That's a nice starting point.

[Adam Schafer]

It's a great starting point. It's like, why over. Why take you right into bodybuilding and have you doing, you know, side tricep presses and doing weird things that like to hit an angle and you could really quickly get caught up in all that minutia. Or why throw you into CrossFit right away and you're already doing baseball throws and we're all these other things. It's just like, hey, go squat, you know, go bench, go deadlift, go learn like these basic fundamental movements that you're going to get some great functionality from that, you're going to get incredible strength from that, you're going to get some great esthetics from that. And then we can, we can build off of that.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, yeah, I mean, it's hard too because like, we're kind of not highlighting a lot of the benefits like CrossFit brings because it's, it's not a great representation of that side of pursuit. If I'm trying to be more movement focused, I'm trying to be like skill specific. Like what can I build and develop? What, you know, my abilities, you know, they, they don't segment it. And so like training itself. For me, this is where I always have like the biggest criticism because it's like where I lean. Like if I was to pick out of the three of them, I'd probably lean more on the CrossFit side of the fence. But however, it's just, it doesn't, I don't program it anywhere near, you know, the same way that they do because it's. When you're building and developing skill, you have to have that kind of focused attention and specificity which is very much lacking on that, you know, and, and again, this is very community based. So it's like everybody's kind of like in the trenches together.

[Adam Schafer]

That's the problem is that it's, it's still, it's still class based.

[Sal Destefano]

That's also the plus. That's also the plus, right? I mean, I have a good friend of mine, Chuck, you guys know Chuck, and I tease him all the time.

[Justin Andrews]

I have tons of CrossFit friends because it's brutal.

[Sal Destefano]

I mean, it's so funny. It's so funny. By the way we tease each other, right? So I annoy him on purpose. I will send. So he's A pastor. I love sending him conspiratorial, like, end of times, like preachings, like, bro, check this out. The signs are here. He gets so mad because he's a theologian. Right? He's like, no, that's not what the. So he'll get like. I could tell he's being calm but annoyed with me. Yes. And then meanwhile, he'll send me stuff that he's doing. And I'm like, bro, why did you do that part of your workout? Like, he sent me a picture of his hands with his hand torn, you know, part of it torn off. I'm like, you think that's like a good workout that that happened? But my point with it is when we. When we all. When we stop teasing each other and we're just, you know, brass tacks, he's like. He's like, so. I love that. I love the friendships that I've made there. Yeah. And I've never felt so encouraged.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

You know, I feel so encouraged. Everybody's, like, supportive. It's a great community. And I'm like, you know what? I can't downplay that because he. He would tell you, he'd be the first one to tell you that his relationship with fitness, his whole life was on and off. It was never consistent. It was either go run like crazy, lose a bunch of weight, then stop and then eat like crazy. This is the first time he's ever been super consistent. And it has nothing to do with the programming. It's zero to do with that. Has everything to do with that. He's been a part of this, of this great community. And from a fitness professional's perspective, CrossFit nailed this so hard. They nailed this so well that they went from nothing to being dominant in a very short period of time. In a space where you see very little of that. You see very little. Like big. To the point where normal gyms, big box gyms, change their floor plans because of CrossFit. They literally added and changed things because of their influence. So that part right there, huge fall off, though.

[Adam Schafer]

Huge fall off, though.

[Sal Destefano]

Big fall off. But what stuck around with the good parts of it. I think what you're saying is a lot of the stuff that Justin said.

[Adam Schafer]

So, okay, so let's imagine this for a second because this would be a fun experiment. You're gonna take this fresh person, Justin, for you, so fresh, so clean. What's a better. What's it for? Lack of a better word?

[Sal Destefano]

New?

[Adam Schafer]

Brand new, Sparkly. Yeah, well, brand new. And what I mean by fresh, like, never Trained anymore.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I know.

[Adam Schafer]

And we're gonna, we're gonna. That we're going to take them through all three.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

So they have to go all three or they're going to go through all three. How am I going to order it and then what am I going to coach telling them as you go through the journey? So I know that they're eventually going to make it through all three and I want them to get the most out of each one of these things and what they have to offer, but also be wary of each.

[Caller Joe]

Wow.

[Adam Schafer]

So what, so what a cool. Because here's what I. Because as we're talking about this, I'm thinking about all of us have experience in all three of these. Justin, I probably did a little more CrossFit stuff than you did, but we all have experience in all these. And so I think the best is knowing the best of all of it and knowing how to individualize it for you.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, no doubt.

[Adam Schafer]

So imagine somebody who's, imagine a young or soon to be fitness enthusiast is like, well, I want, I want, I want to learn.

[Sal Destefano]

Where would they start?

[Adam Schafer]

Where do you, where do we start? What are you telling them? What are you coaching them about that as they're, as they're going through that first one. Then where do you tell them to go second and why and what are you coaching and telling them to look out for? And then third and final.

[Sal Destefano]

I have a pretty initial strong opinion that I think I could support pretty well. So I would start with powerlifting. Okay. Because you're learning the basic big lifts. You're also focus is off how I look. It's focused on performance, it's focused on strength. I have no focus on diet aside from making sure I'm eating enough to get strong, which is actually a good place to start. Then I would move to CrossFit, a good community, so a good CrossFit gym so I can learn more movements, I can have fun with the community. I can push myself with stamina in different ways. I didn't with powerlifting.

[Adam Schafer]

You also are gonna pick up a tremendous amount of mobility.

[Sal Destefano]

Mobility. And then diet now is getting a little bit more advanced and I'm getting more with my diet in terms of, okay, what makes me feel good, what's giving me a little bit more stamina. I can't be bloated like I did before when I was just squatting and deadlifting. Now I gotta like think about that a little bit. And then the end, I would go bodybuilding. Cause by this point I've Built a solid, secure foundation with strength training. I understand performance. I've been doing this long enough where I'm not so jaded or so easily affected by the mirror and by the scale. And now I can learn anatomy. I can get way more detailed with diet. It's not going to take me over. And then bodybuilding, let's face it, like that style of training will take you to the end of your life, whereas CrossFit and Power Living, you'll probably have to stop.

[Adam Schafer]

So that's interesting. You want that? So would you go that way? Well, because I want to hear, I

[Justin Andrews]

could argue a little bit different, like the nutrition part I think is why I probably would agree with that format. But like if we kind of, if I took them to powerlifting and then we went to bodybuilding, I feel like we could focus more on muscle activation and, and I could get a little more familiar in terms of like, you know, unilateral type of focus, like body awareness. It's more like hypertrophy. If you look at it more from like an opt model, let's say, like we're building our base level strength now we're like adding in like hypertrophy is like this is, this is now we're building the muscles up and developing so,

[Adam Schafer]

and then expressing them.

[Justin Andrews]

Now we're expressing at the peak because to me CrossFit is a very small, like, just like you would like the pinnacle of your training. You're going for power, you're going for high risk. So I look at it as high risk training.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So I'm not going to go to high risk until.

[Sal Destefano]

Good argument.

[Justin Andrews]

Until we get to.

[Sal Destefano]

That's a, that's a really good programming argument.

[Adam Schafer]

That is a really good argument. In fact, I was going to agree with Sal until you said that because that is such a great argument. I could see that because I would want this person to.

[Justin Andrews]

But the nutrition kind of messes it up.

[Adam Schafer]

No, you're right. Well, and, and what. Also what I agree with Sal, which is funny because how this started was you made the case that you, you know, powerlifting being the, the place for the female client. And I made the argument for bodybuilding. I, I agree with your pathway. And then guess what? Bodybuild for the rest of your life now. Yeah. Like you have the, you have, you've now got a great base strength. You've now learned all the mobility, moving in different planes, unilateral stuff. You got all the great stuff that CrossFit has, endurance training, all the great stuff that CrossFit has to offer. Now go spend the rest of your life in bodybuilding and just incorporate those other things whenever you want to and need to, and you're set for life, in my opinion. Yeah. But from a programming perspective, Justin makes a great argument.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. That CrossFit's the ultimate expression.

[Adam Schafer]

It is the most. And. And you. And. And high risk. Because not only are you doing explosive type movements, you're also pairing them together and running them in for time.

[Justin Andrews]

You have to have a really good body awareness.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Which puts you in. In super high risk. And so for that reason, having as much experience as I can training. Because maybe, you know, if you go the pathway you're saying, you know, maybe you're. You present high risk or higher injury risk. Right. You. You just started doing powerlifting, say for six months or a year. You get really good and stronger. Then you go right away to all these other, like, now you're throwing a baseball.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what I'm saying? Like that, that's a, that would be, you know, so interesting argument from a programming perspective. I think where it sounds like most of us agree, though, is you land in bodybuilding long term. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Like for, for risk versus control.

[Alexandra]

Best.

[Justin Andrews]

For longevity.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Unilateral hitting all the body parts. You know, I'm saying symmetry, imbalance is

[Sal Destefano]

still there and it's the most advanced diet.

[Adam Schafer]

And then for the average person who doesn't know how to control macros and balance calories and stuff like that, I mean, I.

[Sal Destefano]

And the argument too, for me was hopefully by that point, you're secure enough in yourself. I'll use you as an example, Adam. You started strength training for the same reasons I did. Right. It felt insecure, skinny, want to get bigger, whatever. You didn't bodybuild competitively until way later, to the end of all those, when you had already built a nice security

[Adam Schafer]

and I'd already done all the security. Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

You've already. You're a secure man.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

Imagine if you competed in bodybuilding.

[Adam Schafer]

Sure. Sure.

[Sal Destefano]

Like two years after starting, how that would have spun you.

[Adam Schafer]

Sure.

[Sal Destefano]

So that's part of my. I think the big thing to understand too, with this is what's, what's cool about this is you plan on doing this for the rest of your life if you don't. I think the smartest thing to do is understand the pros and cons of each.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

And know how to move in and out of them. It's great.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, that, that's the truth of all this because obviously there's People listening right now, that is in one of these camps that's arguing and angry. Right, whatever. Because, you know, but the truth is you should, you, you, you should have elements of all of it. You know, there's, there's, there's great elements. They're not, they don't become a modality and stick around for this long unless there's a lot of really good things about the bottom line. And we can sit here and we can.

[Justin Andrews]

I think that's what's been fun about writing our programs together. It's like, you know, we're addressing these different communities and we're like, here, you can literally try it first here and then jump over into this next demo.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, and you. And we're riding them from the perspective of having experienced all this.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right. You know what's cool too about this? We didn't even touch on this. The experience of training in each of these is so different. Like I've, although I've never, I never did a lot of CrossFit, I've done that style of training when I was doing a lot of Brazilian jiu jitsu. It's a very different, It's a good feeling. It's a good feeling to feel like you have stamina, some strength, some agility. It feels great. But it's a very different feeling than when I'm grinding out, you know, singles, doubles and triples of really heavy weight. That's also an awesome feeling, which is very different from the feeling I get when I'm bodybuilding and I get the pump and I can sculpt my body and I do this high volume style training. All of them are these wonderful, I mean all three of them, if I got into them, I just have this incredible experience and I think it's, I think people should seek them out and really understand those experiences.

[Adam Schafer]

No, I think there's a lot of value go in. So the, the, the problem that everybody has is they drink the Kool aid of the camp.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, dude.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what I'm saying?

[Sal Destefano]

I get it.

[Adam Schafer]

Versus going in and going like, hey, I'm interested in this thing. I'm gonna appreciate dive all the way into it. And I think that has more to say about my personality than maybe even when I landed. You make a good point. Like maybe if I did land at peak insecure is 1719 year old Adam, maybe it would have done something. But this has always been my personality. One I've always been against the like, I'm never, like, I never wanted to be fit in a Box.

[Sal Destefano]

It didn't happen that way for a reason. Right. Like.

[Adam Schafer]

Like, so I've always been that person that. To not want to be in the box. Oh, everyone's doing that. I mean, why. The only reason why I'm not doing jiu jitsu is because everybody does it. Like, I know with all my heart, I want. Hey, with all my heart, I want to do it. But then the other.

[Sal Destefano]

Every podcast. Podcasters.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. The other part of me is like,

[Sal Destefano]

everybody's doing kung fu, bro.

[Justin Andrews]

I was gonna do wing chun.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Yes. But that just. Just highlights. That's my personality. Right. And so as much as I would get into each one of these things, I never would fully drink the koolaid because I'm like, I'm not gonna identify. I'm not gonna let you put me in a box. Which, remember when we started podcasting, I drove me crazy.

[Sal Destefano]

I know everybody over the bodybuilder that

[Adam Schafer]

I was a bodybuilder guy. I'm like, I am not much more marketable.

[Justin Andrews]

We would have been, especially with this topic. Like, you bodybuilder, I know you powerless me, CrossFit guy.

[Adam Schafer]

It would have been. Oh, you're right. It would have been.

[Sal Destefano]

If we were.

[Adam Schafer]

If we all had a camp crushed that we fought for the entire time, it would. It would actually probably made for a better. That's what people want.

[Justin Andrews]

They want drama.

[Adam Schafer]

But the truth is, there's so much

[Sal Destefano]

good from all of them, you know, that comes from. Though, guys, it's not because. It's because we train people. That's where it comes from. It's because if I never trained a lot of people, I'd probably be much more in a camp.

[Justin Andrews]

Sure.

[Sal Destefano]

But you work with enough people, enough different personalities, enough different. Different life experiences that you start to see the value in all this stuff, you know?

[Adam Schafer]

You know what's cool.

[Justin Andrews]

Nuance matters.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

Even though I can't quite credit CrossFit for doing this, because I. I kind of got this outside of CrossFit, although I know CrossFit could. You could get this. Each one of them. There's three attributes that I think made me a. Like, what I can now consider a good coach. I've openly said, first five, seven years, terrible. I was terrible trainer. Terrible trainer. But like, three attributes that I think make me really good at what I do. 1. And I've gotten from each one of those, the.

[Sal Destefano]

The.

[Adam Schafer]

The skill and ability to teach powerlifting movements is a skill in itself.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, it's, It's. It's part of why when I was at first five years of training, I never even taught Deadlift.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I was scared to death to do it and much less teach it. And then it took me years of getting really proficient at it to where I could coach it and actually really cue it and see something in like, so that, that is a man that makes a good and those are the most fundament movement. So that's a huge attribute that I have that I didn't get until I went through like powerlifting style of training for a long period of time. Bodybuilding, which was later in my career that I experienced dude, my level of nutrition.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

Coaching and like, bro, that's what you

[Sal Destefano]

bring to the podcast.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh my God. That's like, like was so. And it was wild to me because

[Sal Destefano]

I actually thought I was already a really. It's like you didn't know anything.

[Justin Andrews]

Every average person needs to, you know,

[Adam Schafer]

I, I thought I was pretty good. It took me to a whole nother level of understand and coaching to somebody else. Right. Like to where I can look at a body and go like, this is

[Sal Destefano]

what's wrong when it comes to X's and O's and this and that and that many grams of this. And bodybuilders are the science and it

[Adam Schafer]

and it and it does it takes you to it. And then even though I didn't really get this from CrossFit, I think you could credit CrossFit like my mobility, like what I got from Dr. Brink and the time that I spent with him and all the learning that I went deep on my mobility journey, which you could argue that element comes from CrossFit or it's embedded in CrossFit. And I think those three things in a coach, if you have elite level of those three, like you are.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Who are you not able to like, point like, who are you not able to like completely help to a extreme level?

[Sal Destefano]

Great point.

[Adam Schafer]

Like name it. Name me a client that you come across that if those are three really strong attributes. And again, this is not the point of this was not me to pump my own tires. It's just that my journey of going through all those, when I think back of like, you know, hey, what I admit I was a shitty coach for a long time. I, I, I believe I'm really good at what I do today. Well, what are, what, what if I had to distill it down to three, like badass attributes?

[Sal Destefano]

Those are the three, of course.

[Adam Schafer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

100.

[Adam Schafer]

Would you not agree that those are probably the three that, like you. Is there anything. Am I, as I say, am I

[Sal Destefano]

missing rehab or like correctional exercise with the mobility, which is why I put it in that.

[Justin Andrews]

But I mean, I guess you could qualify.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I would. Right.

[Adam Schafer]

I would say that. And maybe because that could get even

[Justin Andrews]

a little bit Kelly Starrett stuff in there.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. My influence was. I was blessed. I was. I've been so blessed to have these opportunities be put in front of me where I learned from people who know so much more than me. Like, I got powerlifting experience early on from older powerlifters who showed me the major lifts. Bodybuilding was always something I was into. So that was just me reading and learning about it. And then the mobility and correctional exercise. I had a badass physical therapist that worked in my studio with me for eight years that I get to watch and see what she could do and just listen. It was a tiny studio, so I was like. I could hear everything. Like those things right there. Oh, my gosh. Like, great combination.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay, so let's take it a layer deeper because you just have anything. And you did, Justin, by saying giving Kelly Starrett his love. Because I think it's. Well, I think he's.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, he's a champion.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah, for sure.

[Adam Schafer]

Maybe. If not the most important person to CrossFit, in my opinion. I mean, obviously Greg Glassman created it so you can get he. Rob on that side, but I. But Kelly Starrett with. With mobility really saved it. In fact, all the CrossFit without Kelly Starrett dies.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Without addressing the mobility, they wouldn't hide all the. Exactly.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

They would still have the throwing up.

[Adam Schafer]

So. So. So I'm gonna. So let's try and come up with a book, a philosophy or a teacher for each one of those. If, like, that's like you were you.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, God.

[Adam Schafer]

So I think supple leopard for starting strength. For the start. I think starting strength is a great one. Bodybuilding, I can't. You can't say Arnold's.

[Sal Destefano]

I think so.

[Adam Schafer]

Really? Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

I think because you're gonna have movements for everybody. You would do, like, good basic diet advice in there. It's. They call it the insight. They call it the encyclopedia. Well, he. He called it that, but I think people refer to it as that for a reason. So I think body. I think the. The encyclopedia. Bodybuilding would be a good place to start. I really do had a huge impact on me as a kid.

[Adam Schafer]

He didn't have enough on me. That's why I struggle with this one, ironically, the one.

[Sal Destefano]

Do you have Any that.

[Adam Schafer]

No, that's why I was trying to come to my. I got, you know, I got to give our boy credit. A good friend of ours. I got a lot from Lane during my years.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, sure.

[Adam Schafer]

That's how I found Lane.

[Sal Destefano]

Sure.

[Adam Schafer]

I found Lane because I actually thought he, like there was a. There was a transition in the bodybuilding world of very old kind of science

[Justin Andrews]

around nutrition and dieting.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah. Everything. I mean, even like sodium and water intake. And there was a lot of things

[Sal Destefano]

that the bodybuilding Lane changed that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Lane had a big influence on the natural bodybuilding space early on. And again, a lot of bodybuilding back in Arnold days. Well, that's not true because that wasn't high steroid day. But a lot of the, A lot of the information came from anabolic side of things. Yeah. And like the fine.

[Sal Destefano]

It was also one person telling another and this is what worked for me. There wasn't any science.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah. I felt like, I felt like Lane did such a good job of that during that time and take him or leave him as far as like, he's your personality or not, but I have to give him credit for being somebody who was very influential.

[Sal Destefano]

I agree. He came out real big when like bodybuilding forums were really big. And so he had this huge impact. Yeah. Through all of that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

He stuck around a long time because I mean, like, like you said, like him or. Or not with personality wise, like the guy, he communicates things that I mean, very, very well. Very well done.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Data back.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. So his, his sign. And he has obviously incredible understanding of programming. So. Because he's also got a powerlifting background with his bodybuilding. So he's, he's definitely very, very. You know what it's unfortunate is he probably doesn't get the love he deserves because he doesn't have this crazy genetic physique. Oh, so he doesn't look so. For you think body. You think Arnold right away because of how he looks.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, you mean for bodybuilding.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, if.

[Sal Destefano]

I were.

[Adam Schafer]

If. But like.

[Sal Destefano]

And I'm not.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm not. I'm not a fan of Arnold's programming. I mean.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, no.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, programming wise, I was thinking powerless. It was like Louis Simmons or like.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah, west side big time. Oh, God. They changed the game.

[Justin Andrews]

They have to put him in there 100%.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. So I'm, I just thought that would be a fun way to take like. Let's say you're not a trainer who wants to technically go through all these because because that. Here's the other thing. We've read all those things.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And experienced all those things. That's the, the, just the, the ultimate is. Have you read all. All the greatest minds in those. Or some of the greatest minds. You say all of them would be exaggeration. But some of the greatest minds in those fields. And then have you gone through it yourself? And then so can you.

[Sal Destefano]

And then go work with a good coach who's got experience.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Because. Because when you thr a wrenching of different personalities and body types and variances and all kinds of stuff now what you think, you know, gets challenged so many times what I thought was right would get challenged because it just didn't work with a client for whatever reason. And I'd have to throw it out the window and go, okay, let me consider this other thing.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, talking about our friends that it's been on here and been friends of ours for a long time. Another one. Are you guys watching our friend Drew Canole right now?

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, he's doing great.

[Justin Andrews]

Viral video after viral video.

[Adam Schafer]

I. So this is the, the business side.

[Sal Destefano]

He communicates that wellness side very well.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, so you want to, you want to hear the geek side of the side that I get? Like, okay, so I get an opportunity to talk to a lot of these friends of ours that are like the founders and stuff.

[Sal Destefano]

He's a founder of Organifi.

[Adam Schafer]

For people listening. Yeah. So he's a founder of Organifi. You've actually known him even longer than I have. Yeah, I've maintained a close relationship, so I talk to him fairly regularly. Him and Mike Matthews and many other these founders of big companies that are friends of ours. And I love getting to know like the behind the scenes stuff and like, just like I've watched that whole journey of that company, you know, move its way all the way up to like a hundred million dollar company and then watch it come all the way down. And, and a lot of that had to be with. With Drew stepping in and out of the company. Like he's always been a part of it, but he stepped back for many years, like after it really shot up. We first got introduced to him. In fact, when we first got introduced, he was. He had a different CEO in place. And I remember being really fascinated with this because mindful was really early and at that time I really wrestled with this idea of like, you know, should I step aside and like, like hire somebody else to, to run. To run us. Right. And tell us what to do? Like I very at that point not knowing what was the right call and remember thinking about different plays that we could do. And so, and then seeing him do that made me feel like, oh, that's the right thing to do. When you get to a certain point, be wise enough to like, remove yourself from it. Don't let your ego get in the way that you need to happen. So I had so much respect for that. But then it also took a huge dive. Well, Drew, he is now reinserted himself.

[Sal Destefano]

He's got a.

[Justin Andrews]

He's a big, huge part of it.

[Sal Destefano]

He's very. What's the word? He's brilliant in understanding, for lack of a better term or better description, the wellness side of supplements and health. And he also communicates it very well. Yeah, but. And he gets it because he lives it. So this is why Organifi is one of those brands that needs that vision. It's not just a supplement company because if it was, then you're just competing with other supplements. Although they have great products, they're tested across the board. They have some of the most rigorous testing. They even test for glyphosates in their products.

[Justin Andrews]

They're the trends.

[Sal Destefano]

But their formulations are very, very smart because of the team that they have. But more than that, it's like this visionary company that leads wellness and without someone like Drew, who's a leader, he's a thought leader in that space. Good luck. And so now that he's on social media and communicating things that are around health and wellness, he does it so well. And he gets it. He gets how to communicate it. He gets how to talk about the science, but also the experience. And he knows what people need to hear because he's one of those people.

[Adam Schafer]

What was the name of his YouTube?

[Sal Destefano]

Trying to replace him is impossible.

[Adam Schafer]

No, you can't. You can't. That's just, you know, it's also a sign of the times too, I think. It's like this is. Companies want the face of the brand now. And there's so many faceless brands out there and. And sub supplements are another one. And supplements are one of those things where it's like, how do I know? I trust it now, of course, you know, we've co signed for them for a very long time, so that does. I'm sure that why we're partners with them still. But having him back as like the face and talking, I. I don't remember what it was when he reintroduced himself again to Instagram, but I mean, he's in. In the millions.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Like just watched him explode Whatever that

[Justin Andrews]

formula is, he knows it, dude. In and out, dude.

[Caller Bert]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And he just steps in.

[Adam Schafer]

So, so good.

[Sal Destefano]

You know, I love about Drew is he's so. He's a great guy. I mean, you meet him, you just. You love the guy. He's a really good guy. He's out there just enough. But he's not. He owns it. He's not. Yes, he owns it. And he's not one of those out there people that's, like, hypersensitive. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Because he's a weirdo, bro.

[Sal Destefano]

And he, like, owns it to hang out with us. Like, if we like you, we start to tease you.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

This is what we do. So we're. We're guys like that. And Drew's like. He's not like, sensitive or whatever. He loves it, takes it. He owns it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. I'll give you.

[Sal Destefano]

I love that about.

[Adam Schafer]

I'll give you. I'll give you an example of. Of people that. Who he's like and how they were different is. Ben Greenfield is like this.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

But Ben Greenfield took a lot longer to warm up to us.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Drew was like, instantly.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Like Drew. The first time we could be. We were all in a room together. We could talk shit.

[Sal Destefano]

You know what I'm saying? Like, that when he came in, remember when he came into that meeting and he was worried that it looked like a sergeant? What was that? What's that? Sergeant Pepper. Yeah. I'm like, bro, it's a nice Beatles jacket.

[Adam Schafer]

No, right away. Like, didn't. Didn't.

[Sal Destefano]

Where.

[Adam Schafer]

Where Ben was like, Ben took Yellow Summer. Ben took a little while to warm up to us. He did. And. And both guys, you know what I. What I enjoy most about them, and I know they. They're somewhat controversial figures online, and, you know, we've gotten in, become friends, and know them very, very well. And the thing that I respect the most about both of those guys that I think they get a lot of scrutiny around is being these kind of hippie, dippy, biohack guys, but they live it. Yeah. There is a lot of people.

[Sal Destefano]

Not fake.

[Adam Schafer]

There is a lot of people that have jumped on that bandwagon and they're. And yes, and they. They pitch it, they preach it, they talk all about it, but they, like, they. Those guys live that lifestyle and are really, really into that. And listen, if, like the. The newest ashwagandha or whatever thing that everyone's talking about, like, that's the most exotic thing about.

[Sal Destefano]

It's got hella studies supporting it. You know, it's like established Whatever.

[Adam Schafer]

The newest. The newest thing, you know, what's the. What's the new. The. The last one that we. We. That has blown up everybody. Sheila G. Sheila G. You know, he's always on the. The front end of that.

[Sal Destefano]

That was the one I was looking for.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, that's.

[Adam Schafer]

But it's so true, though. Like, he's. He's always the guy to be the first one, and then I feel like everybody else kind of follows that trail.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right. They did set that trend.

[Adam Schafer]

They did.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, started with the organifies.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, he probably started the ashwagandha. Green Juice was him.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, Green Juice was him.

[Sal Destefano]

You're right.

[Adam Schafer]

Green Juice was not popular.

[Sal Destefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

All those other brands that are huge and everybody knows about them. Organifies.

[Justin Andrews]

Marketable.

[Adam Schafer]

Their flagship products. What'd you say?

[Sal Destefano]

Marketable. Marketable.

[Adam Schafer]

I love Paul, but I just tuned into him the other day.

[Justin Andrews]

He's great, dude.

[Sal Destefano]

I love him.

[Justin Andrews]

Just because he's always going to be Paul.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, he is.

[Adam Schafer]

Forever.

[Sal Destefano]

And he's always going to wear the same pants. Yep. No matter what.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. I just watched him. See, I was just. You know, it was funny you bringing him up. So funny you brought him up. Because I actually haven't. He. I mean, he's so. The algorithm does not like him. You know what I'm saying? Like, because he's definitely the ultimate controversial, anti establishment, everything guy. And I actually was like, you know what? I. He hasn't popped up my feed forever. You have to look him up. I had to look him up because I wanted to see what he's been up to. And I'm like, man, all this crazy Epstein stuff, I wonder if I was like, so curious, like, what is Paul gonna say? Right? Like, I wanted to.

[Justin Andrews]

And actually that's a good call.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Yeah. I was like, dude, he's got it.

[Justin Andrews]

I'd love to hear him. Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Break it down. But I actually was surprised to see he hasn't been addressing dude.

[Sal Destefano]

You know, it's funny, but maybe because

[Adam Schafer]

if you know Paul, Paul's like, this is old news.

[Caller Bert]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, of course. Knew this.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah. You could have asked me. Yeah. 70s and 80s, I could have told

[Sal Destefano]

you about it, dude. You know my favorite. My favorite flex that anybody's ever tried to do on us. Paul, I know what you're talking about. When we first met him, and it's such a. Like, let me establish myself real quick to you guys. We show up to his house to interview him years ago, like seven years ago, eight years ago, maybe we fly to Interview this guy Paul answers the door, brings us outside, and then just takes out his wang and takes a piss right in front of us, right outside.

[Adam Schafer]

Like, hey, mid conversation.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Like.

[Adam Schafer]

Like, I believe he's not hiding. I don't think he broke conversation. I believe he was still.

[Sal Destefano]

He's not trying to hide or anything.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, he's watering the police, and I

[Sal Destefano]

know what he's doing. He's like, all right, you guys, let's see if you guys flinch. Let's see what's going on here.

[Alexandra]

Now.

[Sal Destefano]

Like, okay, this is what's gonna be like.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, dude. You know, Justin, you should have one up to me right next to him, slap him in the butt.

[Sal Destefano]

If Justin pooped, he was.

[Justin Andrews]

He wouldn't bury it real quick.

[Adam Schafer]

Hey, Paul would have been like, nice, nice.

[Sal Destefano]

Very good.

[Adam Schafer]

I like your style. You went ahead and use some banana leaves.

[Sal Destefano]

Here, let me wipe you.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you taught me how to remote.

[Adam Schafer]

Who else has done, like, Ben.

[Sal Destefano]

Ben flexed on us.

[Latasha]

You.

[Adam Schafer]

Ben did, too.

[Sal Destefano]

Greenfield. Yeah. Let's go grab some bales of hay. Yeah, dude. We show up, we say, he's helping.

[Justin Andrews]

It's the work right away.

[Adam Schafer]

Has anybody else done that? Has anybody else. Has anyone else gave us, like, weird. We've had weird hand. We've had the aggressive handshakes.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I mean, barbell shrug. Try to, you know.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. But then there's the insecure flexes, which is.

[Adam Schafer]

That was.

[Narrator/Host Intro]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Aubrey. Marcus.

[Adam Schafer]

Aubrey with the handshake. Ms. With Justin. Just want.

[Justin Andrews]

Dude, it was, like, three times, like, and I wasn't, like, missed hands, and I even, like, waited, you know, like, the second time, because I was like, maybe I'm coming in too hot or something. And it just wasn't working. And still, like, we couldn't. We just couldn't.

[Sal Destefano]

He, like, hit the back of his handy. How do you do that? I've never missed, like, my forearm.

[Justin Andrews]

And I'm like, dude, are we gonna do the. Bro, you know, where you just grab, like, forearms.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Lewis Howes had the. He hugged me and rubbed my chest.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah. He hugged me in a little circle.

[Adam Schafer]

Put his arm around. Put his arm. The first time we ever met, we walk into his apartment.

[Justin Andrews]

Vic's Vapor up.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. The first time we ever met, we walked in his apartment.

[Sal Destefano]

That's weird.

[Adam Schafer]

He put his. He put his arm around my. My low back and then rubbed my chest.

[Sal Destefano]

It's a little weird Playing a little

[Adam Schafer]

gay chicken there and then. Who's our. Our good buddy?

[Sal Destefano]

You first.

[Justin Andrews]

You first.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, my God. The UFC fighter.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, Kyle Kingsbury.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Latasha]

Kyle.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, that's too far, dude.

[Adam Schafer]

Kyle.

[Sal Destefano]

I. I would never. Yeah, that's too far.

[Adam Schafer]

Kyle did a low back one of these.

[Sal Destefano]

He did a. He did a little

[Justin Andrews]

walking you around

[Adam Schafer]

first time around him.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Because he could never. He wanted.

[Adam Schafer]

Never been scared like that before.

[Sal Destefano]

Justin. I couldn't stop him. We'd have to call the cops. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

We were getting hyped up. We're like, yeah, far boys in trouble.

[Sal Destefano]

We're in trouble. He goes after Adam.

[Adam Schafer]

Any other weird encounters or like first.

[Sal Destefano]

We've had a couple where. Who was it that we had? What's the dude? He's kind of a big guy. We interviewed him and he. He had a personality on the podcast that. Oh, Elliot. Yeah, dude. It was weird. Like suddenly he's like, I am this guy and I will talk this one. Like, whoa, dude. Yeah, that's not how you talk.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, we were turned off by that right away. That's what. We never hit it off. We never communicated after that. Rarely. There's. It's rare that we. We meet somebody and then we just like. That'll be.

[Justin Andrews]

There's so many weirdos, dude.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

People don't understand that. You know, they just see them in their videos.

[Caller Bert]

Remember?

[Adam Schafer]

Hey, remember the first time I took. We went. I took us to. I had the. The suite and we went to the concert after we interviewed Aaron Alexander and remember he took his shoes off of the suite and he started doing stretches like monkey watch. Yeah. So we got the suite up there. Right. There's like executives and people in there and homeboy just takes his shoes off and he's got. Starts doing like.

[Sal Destefano]

He's a nice guy.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh no, I love it.

[Justin Andrews]

I really like the guy, but he's so out there.

[Sal Destefano]

But he's. He definitely's got that there. No, like this is like. All due respect, there's no offense, but that hippie smell. You know what I mean?

[Adam Schafer]

He's a non deodorant guy.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. You know what I mean? It's like. Oh, there's a little earthy. Earthy.

[Adam Schafer]

I remember he was the first time he came here too. He was like climbing on all the. All the. He climbed up. He was on top the squat rack. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Why are you up there? That's like four first time meeting. So that's what I'm talking about.

[Sal Destefano]

He's talking to us. But he decided apple or something.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. That was like Ben at dinner. Ben or dinner.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, yeah. He sat perched like a vulture. Like not sitting in his chair but standing and Squatting in his chair and like leaning over with his blue blockers on. He's got massive hands like this while he's talking. Remember he threw that sciency question at you, Adam? Yes.

[Adam Schafer]

Right out the gates. As soon as the podcast turned on.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, as soon as it turned on, he looked at the. The broest looking one of us. He's like, oh. So Adam, what do you think about.

[Adam Schafer]

I remember what he said, guys. He was talking about SARMs.

[Sal Destefano]

SARMs. That's right. And of course, Adam. Adam looked at me, he's like, I brought my Sal with me. Yeah, I brought. Go ahead, Sal.

[Adam Schafer]

I brought my own. You obviously don't.

[Justin Andrews]

My own science dude.

[Adam Schafer]

So we were just, we were just at somewhere like that somebody. I forget where we're at and somebody started to ask me something like, you're not listening to the podcast. That's not me.

[Sal Destefano]

That's a question. It's like when I get really deep business questions. Yeah, we're going to interview Sal about your business and the analytics and my whole stuff.

[Adam Schafer]

Somebody was interviewing me. They sent me over the list of questions like, I'm not gonna answer these.

[Sal Destefano]

You got the wrong.

[Adam Schafer]

Katrina was like, you could answer those. I'm like, it doesn't matter. I could. It's like I have someone better for that. It's like, it's not a matter if I could or not. That's not my forte. I'm saying as the science guy, that's.

[Sal Destefano]

I got. I gotta share you guys a cool story about. So you guys know how my niece, Jessica's niece has moved in. She's now lived with us for a little while now. She's going to school up here. So such a great. I love, I love seeing when people are growth minded and all that stuff. So she's a big soda drinker? Big soda drinker. Like a lot of kids, Jessica grew up like this. Just. In fact, my wife will tell you she didn't drink water till she was like 21. That's all she drank was soda. So she loved Dr. Pepper and drank it all the time. Well, she started working out. I started training her with my daughter. They're getting into working out. They're getting into trying to get strong. I'm not pushing it. We're not trying to push it. And I came home the other day and she's like, I'm so mad. I'm like, what's going on? She's like, did you know Dr. Pepper has this many grams of sugar in it? Like, yeah, yeah. She's like, That's a lot. I'm not drinking those anymore. So she cut out her Dr. Pepper. So. Which she's. Which is a great. I mean, for a kid. This is a big deal for her.

[Adam Schafer]

No, it's hard to do.

[Sal Destefano]

She's replaced it with Olipop.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, bro, I love that we work. We're working with.

[Sal Destefano]

Because she likes soda. She likes soda. She likes the taste.

[Adam Schafer]

Anyone. Anyone that's been listening long enough knows that I've always talked about my soda addiction and my sugar addiction.

[Sal Destefano]

You grew up like that?

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

Grew up like that. 100.

[Adam Schafer]

And even as a young adult, it's been. It's in and out of my life all the time. And Ollie Pop has always been something that I keep around the house that it's like. And just like anything else we talk about, I talk about this with caffeine, with marijuana, all these different things that I will notice. Like, okay, I'm starting to drink a lot of these diet sodas.

[Sal Destefano]

Like.

[Adam Schafer]

Like Ollie Pop is like the go to move that. I feel like I still get that.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Mouth feel. It tastes still sweet. It tastes good, but so much better for you.

[Sal Destefano]

It's like almost no sugar.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Like super low.

[Adam Schafer]

And I think they have. Don't they. And you know, maybe you can look this up. Do they have a Dr. Pepper flavor? I think they do have what they call it. I know they have a. I know they have like a. Like a root beer one. I know they have a cream soda one. Yeah, I think they do have.

[Sal Destefano]

I like their Shirley Temple.

[Adam Schafer]

The Shirley Temple one's.

[Sal Destefano]

The new one is really good. It's delicious.

[Adam Schafer]

See if they have. Do you know what? They have one.

[Caller Bert]

Yeah, they call it Dr. Goodwin.

[Adam Schafer]

See, they've got a doctor so cool. Dr. Pepper one. So that's cool. You'll have to get her trying that, by the way.

[Sal Destefano]

She just got a job and it's the best.

[Adam Schafer]

Did she get the front desk job at the gym? She did, at the gym. Okay, so tell me. You didn't tell me. Okay, well, last time we talked.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, I told you about.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, you're getting ready for the interview.

[Sal Destefano]

So she's so great, right? Because she's. One thing about her, she's. She's very shy, but she's also very growth minded. And I keep. I always remind her how growth minded she is because I think it's important that you tell people, but especially kids, that you remind them of their strengths because. Yeah, I remember what it was like to be a teenager and you could feel a little Insecure. And she is. She's very growth minded. Something's really difficult for her. She'll do it anyway, still be challenged, but she chooses to do it. And so I love telling her that. But she is very shy and she's also very soft spoken. And I have a connection at UFC gym. You guys know my buddy Don runs the place. And the gym environment is just a great environment to be in, especially if you're. If you're shy and you want to have to learn how to talk to people.

[Justin Andrews]

Took me out of my shel.

[Sal Destefano]

It's the best. It's the best environment. It's like tons of people. There's music, it's a healthy environment, energy. So I gotta tell you guys the interview that I practiced with her. Cause I don't know if I said this on the show. So I sat down with her because she was gonna get interviewed. I'm like, all right, let's practice. Like when you do an interview. So we practice the handshake sitting down. And so I'm like, so why do you want to work here? And she's like, I think it'll help me strengthen and help me work on my social skills. And I'm like, okay, that's good. But I don't think you should share that. Let's not. First, don't tell them. Help.

[Adam Schafer]

Don't.

[Sal Destefano]

Let's not open with that. But she got the job she loves.

[Adam Schafer]

When she start.

[Sal Destefano]

When she start. She's starting, I think tomorrow.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, I'm sorry. You have to keep us updated on the journey.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I do. I'm psyched. Oh, she's going to grow so much.

[Adam Schafer]

You know what you just said that makes I. I was just thinking about something you just said. Something that I thought is interesting. That is. It has to be somewhat true, if not really true. When you go to the gym, even if, like, you had a bad day and you've motivated yourself or you've told yourself, I'm going, and you go, yeah, you had to switch your mindset to do that. You know what today sucks? I don't feel good. I had a bad day at work. I'm going to the gym. So you've already reframed or otherwise you. You chalk it up and go f the day and you stay home. So anybody who's in the gym has naturally kind of this positive frame. That's right. That doesn't mean it's impossible to run into an asshole or run into somebody.

[Sal Destefano]

It's the best environment.

[Adam Schafer]

But think about that. Where else can you Get a collection of potentially hundred or hundreds of people

[Sal Destefano]

in one place who are there to become better. Yeah. Right.

[Adam Schafer]

And so that, that there's a, there's a very high likelihood that most of them are in a really good mindset.

[Sal Destefano]

Right.

[Adam Schafer]

Like that's like, that's a place where you, if you're having that bad of a day, you just don't go.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Adam Schafer]

You don't go to the gym. It's like it's a bad day. Right. So you, you go to the gym. Most people go. And even if you were having a bad day and you go to the gym, work through it, you, that means you, you made the mental decision that I'm not going to let this day get me. I'm going to go still to this thing. And so you're already in a, in a, in a, in a better.

[Sal Destefano]

Totally. And not only that, listen, we're all, we sometimes are a little bit in a bubble because we've all worked in gyms most of our lives in that environment. You guys remember what it's like to work in a non gym, like a regular work environment?

[Justin Andrews]

It's hard to remember.

[Sal Destefano]

It's depressing. Yeah, it's depressing, dude. Like you're surrounded by people who are working. Most of them are not really passionate. Most people that work in a gym are passionate about fitness. So there's that. Then you get the members coming in. They're all choosing to go there to better themselves. You got music in the background. It's uplifting. Most jobs when I worked in the bank, because I did, I was a premier banker for a little bit for bank of America, man, it's depressing.

[Adam Schafer]

Life sucking.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Nobody wants to be here. Everybody's coming in.

[Adam Schafer]

Where else could you get that, where else could you get that high Of a percentage of people that have to be in a good mood? And even if they were in a bad mood, they've already at least shifted their frame to be in a good mood to get into getting their workout. Where else?

[Sal Destefano]

I don't know. A theme park? I mean, maybe.

[Adam Schafer]

I know, I'm like, I'm serious.

[Sal Destefano]

Unless you get the people coming.

[Justin Andrews]

Mascots.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, that's why Disneyland's so great. Yeah. I mean like, although, although sometimes you

[Sal Destefano]

get, you can see on parents faces like they don't want to be 700. Yeah. So tired. My kids.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. A lot, a lot of times that could be selfless. Right. You're there because your kid, you don't want to go, like how many, how Many, many husbands or whatever wives have been like, I don't want to go

[Sal Destefano]

but it's a great dude. Listen, I, I can't think.

[Adam Schafer]

I'm really trying to think of another job setting or a setting where a hundred plus people would be in one place, I think and you could count on a large percentage, if not all are in a positive mindset. That's kind of, that's kind of crazy.

[Sal Destefano]

I would say volunteer jobs. Like when you're volunteering, everybody's there.

[Adam Schafer]

Because that's a really good guess. Yeah, right. Like if you were, if you volunteer rescue animal place or something like that, everybody's there.

[Sal Destefano]

You're going to be around people who are there because they really, you know.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh yeah. Or like you're going down Mexico building houses or something like that. Like on a mission, another level, a mission trip or something. That's probably it. Like really? That's like that. That is maybe the only thing that would probably rival that because that's probably even more powerful. It is, it's selfless.

[Sal Destefano]

It is.

[Adam Schafer]

You're there and you're, you know, you're

[Sal Destefano]

not even getting paid right.

[Adam Schafer]

You know, you're doing, you know like, and you're put. You're doing it for somebody else. Like you have to have a really already great mindset. That's probably the only thing that would rival it actually. No, I can't think of anything.

[Sal Destefano]

Listen, I tell. I was telling my daughter this because my daughter's not old enough to work in the gym and I'm like, this is the best first job you could get. Go work in the kids club, work front desk. If you want to be a trainer later, that's really cool. But it's a great environment. It's not perfect. Every environment's going to have its whatever.

[Adam Schafer]

Sure you can have a bad boss,

[Sal Destefano]

but you're going to work. What are you going to work? A retail store at the mall. Restaurants are cool, but restaurants can be a little. I worked in restaurants. They could also be a little whatever.

[Justin Andrews]

I think everybody should work at a restaurant.

[Adam Schafer]

It builds care a little bit.

[Sal Destefano]

It does.

[Justin Andrews]

Just like I think everybody should have a little bit of entrepreneurial sales knowledge. Well, mainly to like start a business and what that entails so you give you a, a lot better perspective and more balanced.

[Adam Schafer]

Totally.

[Sal Destefano]

Go sell memberships of the gym. Watch what happens to your people skills. Oh yeah, yeah. From our place is cookware that's forever chemical free. A lot of cookware, especially the non stick cookware has chemicals in there and they call them forever chemicals for a reason. They don't leave, they go into your body. Now we have studies that show that connect them to not great things, hormone disruption and chronic disease. If you want cookware that lasts a long time, that's nonstick, that's easy to take care of, that doesn't have all those crazy chemicals, there is a company, there is a company that does this. It's our place. Go check them out. Go to fromourplace.com, use the code mindpump. You'll get 10% off site wide. By the way, they have a 100 day trial with free shipping and returns.

[Justin Andrews]

Try it out.

[Sal Destefano]

It's the best cookware you'll ever use and you're not going to expose yourself to all those crazy chemicals.

[Host/Moderator]

Our first caller is Bert from Florida.

[Sal Destefano]

What's up, Bert?

[Adam Schafer]

How you doing man?

[Sal Destefano]

What's happening?

[Caller Bert]

How's it going man? How you guys doing?

[Adam Schafer]

Good.

[Sal Destefano]

Good, man, good. How can we help you?

[Caller Bert]

Good. So I'm just gonna go off the script here because it's a little surreal being on, on the air with you guys after listening to so many episodes. So I've been listening to you guys for about a year. One of my daughters friends, dads actually recommended you guys. So I started listening since then and, and since that episode I've gone back, way back, listening to a bunch of stuff and it's all been good. And I wanted to start by thanking you guys for all the free workout family and specifically the parenting advice that you guys give. Just Lisa being a good human man and it's great information and there's not enough of that right now in the world. You know, it feels like I'm talking to my gym buddies except you guys are a little smarter than they were but, you know, same kind of deal, you know. So I appreciate that.

[Sal Destefano]

Thanks, bro. Barely. Yeah.

[Caller Bert]

So I'll go on to my questions now. It's basically two questions. 49 years old and I'll be 50 in March of this year. I'm married and I have a four and a six year old, a four year old son and a six year old daughter. I usually work out at home. I have a pretty, pretty full good home gym and also I have a gym at work that I use been weightlifting since I was about 15 years old. That summer I bought a bus pass and I'd ride to the gym and meet my dad there during his lunch break and work out.

[Sal Destefano]

So that's cool.

[Caller Bert]

It's been quite a while. So since then my training's been on and off, but like 99.9 on. Very rarely take any time off. So over the years, I've struggled with what I feel is like gaining muscle. I'm sure it's probably due to my conservative approach, not wanting to gain too much body fat. So I pretty much track every single thing that I eat, and I use an app to track that I'm about. And I'm. I am at about 1002500 calories right now. I weigh 153 pounds. I consume about 165 grams of protein, and I'm. I'm currently doing a reverse diet. The app I use is a carbon app, the, the Lane Norton app. And they give me recommendations on the macros. And I, it feels to me like sometimes they're too small. You know, like the, the, the, the recommendations are a very small amount of calories. So I'm not sure if I should be trying to consume more calories or stay on the reverse longer. So that's, that's my question as far as the diet stuff. And then I have a question as far as the training. So should I. Wait, wait, you guys, give me some.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, let me ask you some questions where we're at right now. Give me an idea of like, do you have any idea how many steps you take in the day? Like, how active you are during the day?

[Caller Bert]

I, I don't usually track my steps, but I'm, I'm pretty. I'm like a robot man. I'm consistent with everything that I do. Like my daily routine, you know, my diet, my training, everything is, is very consistent. And I've never tracked my steps well, maybe something that I should do.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, I mean, I. Give me an idea what you do. What do you do for work? Like, do you have a job that. A desk job or do you move around a lot? Like, what's your, what's your day look like?

[Caller Bert]

I work. I work for the fire department, but I'm gonna, I'm in an administrative position in health and safety, so I pretty much have a desk job.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay.

[Caller Bert]

So it's not, you know, my, my, my daily steps for work, other than when I work out, isn't, isn't much more than, than, you know, out of the ordinary.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay, well, that, that helps because if you. I was going to say your calories are probably really low if you have an active job and you move around a lot. But if you're pretty sedentary at work and your only real activity is your lifting, then I don't think you're like, way under. But I pro. We probably definitely could boost calories, though, if you're training pretty consistently and you have a clean diet. My first reaction is to go higher on the calories.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. What you're currently doing is going to keep you lean and fit, but if you want to gain, I mean, I would immediately have you go up 500 calories.

[Narrator/Host Intro]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Right out the gates and go up 500. I don't even think you'd see. I don't think you'd see massive change in the scale even with 500. You just start to see some strain gains with a 500 calorie increase. So. And you've been at. How long you been at 2500?

[Caller Bert]

I think it was like June or July. I'd have to look into the app, but it's been, you know, It'll be like 25, 25, 25, 56. It'll go up very. I mean, 30, maybe 50 calories.

[Sal Destefano]

Yes.

[Caller Bert]

You know, that's what the increases usually are.

[Sal Destefano]

Where did you start? What was it at?

[Caller Bert]

I'd have to look. I'd have to look back in the app and. And see. But it, it been. I've been at it since about April last year.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Caller Bert]

So like I said, the, the increases really haven't been much.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Adam Schafer]

So were you, like, so back. Back in April when you, when you first started the app, were you like around 2,000 calories or something? Is that kind of where you used to eat back in the days?

[Sal Destefano]

That's.

[Caller Bert]

Yeah, Yeah, I think it. I think it was right on there. I mean, again, I have the exact numbers. I keep workout logs. Yeah, I'm like, you know, OCD on some of that stuff. Maybe a little too much.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm pretty confident if you went up 500 calories, you'd be happy.

[Adam Schafer]

I agree.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. And you look pretty lean. What's your body fat percentage at?

[Caller Bert]

So I haven't done like a Dexa, but. Or any of the body fat tests. We have an in body thing here at work, but I didn't do it on an empty stomach first thing in the morning or whatever I have. I would say, you know, my abs are visible, especially if I flex them, but normally they're.

[Adam Schafer]

They're there.

[Caller Bert]

You know, you can see them.

[Sal Destefano]

You're probably like, you're around 10%.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I'd say.

[Sal Destefano]

I would guess. Or nine. Yeah. 500 calorie increase just right out the gates. You'd have a lot of positive of gains from that route to get. I mean, you could do the Slow, really, really slow, you know, increase, which is very conservative. I'm, you know, Lane's got a great app, but a lot of it's geared towards trying to get people to get their metabolism to kind of go up with minimal or no fat gain. So it's extremely conservative. But yeah, I mean you're a dude, you've been lifting weights for a while, you're lean, otherwise healthy. A 500 calorie increase is not huge. And I think that would be like, that would, you would notice some really good strength gains right out the game.

[Adam Schafer]

Especially hearing a guy like, like you, who's telling me that you, you consistently lift and you try. I'm assuming you've been living that long, you probably got good technique, you probably lift good. Like so the 500 calorie boost, watch, I think, I think in a week or two, like you'll feel, you'll feel stronger. Oh yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll feel your big lifts go up right away and then you'll know like, because your big lifts go up right away from a 500 calorie boost, then what follows right behind that is more muscle. You'll, you'll, you'll right behind that. So. Yeah, I agree. I think going up to 3, 000 calories, I think you're gonna see a big difference. How do you like, are you following the 15 routine right now? Are you on the upper, lower split? What are you on right now?

[Caller Bert]

Well, so, so right now, like I, I sent in the question, you guys obviously read it, but I sent in the question, you know that it's around November last year I started like my own modified kind of version of the 15.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Caller Bert]

That I just basically do like, like a, do you know, legs, squats, deadlift or something then paired like with triceps or biceps.

[Sal Destefano]

Sure.

[Caller Bert]

And I've been doing it. And, and like I, I wrote in the email, I said my 20, 30 and 40 year old self. Wish I would have known this volume approach because it's like I'm either maintaining or seen improvements like you guys always preach, you know, and it's, it's, it was so hard for me to pivot from doing five, six, seven days a week like I've done for so many years, to do so much less volume and seeing, you know, as good, if not potentially better results.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Caller Bert]

So that, that's the part of, the other part of the question was as far as the training, you know, what, what should I be looking at doing as far as that as well, I Like, I mean, it's not.

[Adam Schafer]

I like what you're doing. I mean, we could, we could send you. If you want another program to try out, we can send it to you. But I, I, if, if that's your approach, that's a good approach.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. I mean, typically, if you go in a calorie, if you start to bump calories, this is when you would want to bump volume. But I would rather you mess with one variable at a time instead of both at the same time. So I would just, I would just go up 500 calories. Keep doing what you're doing, you're going to see great gains.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. I mean, his volume's naturally gonna go because he gets stronger. Exactly.

[Justin Andrews]

You know.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Intensity.

[Adam Schafer]

So I, I like exactly what you're doing and just pay attention to those big lifts. My prediction is within a week or two, you see your big lifts go up.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, you'll go up and you'll go

[Adam Schafer]

up in your big lifts.

[Sal Destefano]

What are your lifts at right now? So, like, let's, like, what are you doing with your squats and your deadlifts? Like, give me an idea of your strength.

[Caller Bert]

So with that, overall, my squats and my deadlifts really haven't been as much as I'd want them to be. And that was, I know that Adam throws in there the value of doing that symmetry at least once a year. I've had this nagging right hip thing on and off for years. So I don't do regular squat because I always noticed I had a right weight kind of hip shift.

[Caller Joe]

Sure.

[Caller Bert]

And I've gone to physical therapists, different people, they haven't helped me. The Zercher squat, I've been able to do that. And, and I can get up to like £185 almost on that for a few reps, you know, so that's the kind of the workaround I've done, and that hasn't bothered my hip as much, you know, deadlift. With the I'm not doing deadlifts disco run in November, I was, and I was up to like 275deadlift. You know, like this morning I worked out, I was doing incline dumbbells with 50, you know, a few sets of 15 reps. So, you know, that, that's kind of where I'm at with, with.

[Sal Destefano]

Your strength's gonna blow up.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, your strength will go up. Do you, do you tend to lean more towards, like, the higher 10 to 15 rep range, or do you tend to lean more towards, like, the low rep, like 5 rep? Range. What's more, you.

[Caller Bert]

Well, again, lately, what I've been doing, and since I was doing that upper body, lower body split, I vary it. I'll do a few weeks, you know, 15, 12 to 15 reps, and then I'll drop down to, like, six to eight.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay.

[Caller Bert]

You know, just to kind of switch it up. But at the end of the day, I'm a creature of structure and habit, you know? So that's why I. I wanted your input on. On what program to follow, because I've kind of thrown this together, and I think it's worked okay. But I really like the fact of. Of having that program to follow the structure for the guidance, you know, to. To kind of gives me an endpoint.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So. So guy like you who's. Who's got a good feel for all this stuff because you've been doing it for so long, a good idea would be go up 500 calories. Stay what you're doing for the next four weeks. You'll see some good strength gains, go up another 200 calories after that, and then go into map symmetry, because symmetry's got a little more volume, and then follow symmetry. So you'll be at 3,000 calories for four weeks. Then you'll be at 3,200 calories, following all the way through map symmetry. And by the end of that, I would be. I. I would Expect probably a 7 to 8 pound gain in lean body mass. Maybe 5. Maybe 5 to 7 pounds of lean body mass and maybe a couple pounds of body fat. But. But overall, your body fat percentage will stay great because the lean body mass went up.

[Adam Schafer]

You'll look better, you'll feel better. And I'm willing to bet all your big lifts. Oh, you're taught. You talked to us about. You'll see up.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah. You're gonna see like a 20, 30 pound increase on some of those lifts.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay. Yeah.

[Caller Bert]

All right, so then the 500. And then about a month. After about a month, do another 200.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. When you. When you switch to symmetry. Yeah. So st. Doing. Just go to 3,000 calories after a month, then go to ma. If you don't have map symmetry, we'll send it to you, then go to. Then go to map symmetry, follow it out. Outs laid out the entire program with another 200 calories. And I'm with Sal. I think. And what's cool is the way map symmetry ends. You do all unilateral work. The front half. The last cor. The last month of symmetry is a like, 5x5 traditional training. So you really get to see. Be your strength expressed at the end. Yeah. So this is. The unilateral work will be great for you. And then you'll go right into the. Then you'll go into five by five, the final month. So that's a good layout for you.

[Caller Bert]

Awesome. And thank you. Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, I'd love to hear back from you, Bert. I really. I think I want to hear where it happens.

[Caller Bert]

Yeah, I'll keep you guys in the loop. And one last thing. I know. I know limited on time, but I wanted to share this with you guys. I've been in the fire department now for about 25 years. Before I came into the fire department, I was actually a school teacher. So, you know, in my heart is education. I've been a training guy here for years with a lot of different things we've done within the department. But, you know, listening to you guys and. And the way that you guys have the. The training aspect of how you guys talk about helping people and everything, that. That really, from listening to you guys has motivated me for my. My career. After this career, which I'm gonna be focusing on, on training people, I've always kind of helped people out here and there because they see me and they're like, oh, Bert, you know, you're the fitness guy. You work out and all this.

[Adam Schafer]

But.

[Caller Bert]

But it's really given me an opportunity to have something after this, you know, after. First responders many times leave their career and they don't have an identity or something to identify with, to, again, continue to help people. And I think watching and learning from you guys, you guys really have motivated me. That is my calling, you know, and that's something that I'm going to follow up on the next, you know, three to five years when I move on from the fire service. My kids are still going to be young, you know, but I think it'll be something that I'll be able to do on my own terms. I won't have to chase money. I won't have to chase anything. It'll be for my own, you know, fulfillment and enjoyment of helping others. But I wanted to thank you guys for that as well, because just, you know, the way that you guys talk about, you know, the training aspect and helping people, and, you know, there's a lot of value in that, and I really do appreciate that. Something personal to me that I wanted to thank you guys for as well.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you, man.

[Adam Schafer]

Stay in touch. Yeah, stay in touch with us.

[Caller Bert]

Absolutely, man. Thank you so much. All right, take care.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. I mean, yeah. Easy, easy calorie bump.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. You made a good point about Lane Sting. I just want to address that because, I mean, we all have a lot of respect for Lane. I think Lane's awesome. I think his app is probably awesome. I think it's geared on the conservative side, because the average person that he's probably putting on a reverse diet on there is somebody who is, like, low calorie, tried to lose weight their whole life. Like, he's like a hard gainer type of person. Yeah, like a hard gainer person. You can throw a much bigger chunk of calories at that person, and their body will respond.

[Sal Destefano]

And there's also a couple. Like, you know, when I'm dealing with somebody where. Because I understand the conservative approach, I totally get it. But when I'm dealing with somebody who's so afraid of gaining weight and so afraid of all this stuff, and I give them calorie bumps that are like, 56 calories, 37 calories, 72 calories. It's where they're staying in this micromanaged space of this kind of, like, fear and attachment to their macros kind of reinforces that, which I get that. But just, you know, after coaching people for so long, it's like, I want to get you out of that too. And I think we're going to be okay bumping 150 calories, and I would rather not be so. So just absolutely specific.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

With these tiny little bumps that just makes you feel even more like you're controlling every little step, you know, so. But I get it. I totally get it.

[Host/Moderator]

Our next caller is Latasha from Tennessee.

[Sal Destefano]

Hi, Latasha.

[Justin Andrews]

Morning.

[Latasha]

Hey, everybody. Thank you very much for taking my call. I never expected to be chosen. I felt like I'd won a prize when I saw the email that you guys had picked me. So for some background, I've always been one that enjoyed exercise, but I didn't really take it very seriously until after my son was born. I had him at 32. I'm 49 now. I was consistent with exercising at home with, like, workout videos, but I know now that that was mostly just doing cardio. It never occurred to me to. To pick up weights and do the progressive overload stuff that I know now, as far as my diet, my whole life, it's really just been all over the place. I would eat too low of calories and then inevitably just completely throw it out and abandon it and just eat whatever I wanted to and then December of 2024, I found that I was heavier than I have ever been in my whole life. And I was just at a loss because you try to look on the and get some answers and it's all conflicting and you just don't know what to do. So an ad came across my Facebook page for online trainer company, and I decided to take a chance on them. And I don't know if I can say the name of them on, you know, on here with you guys, but the co founder has a podcast also, and she has had Sal on as a guest before.

[Sal Destefano]

Before. Awesome.

[Latasha]

Yeah. So that was a really good experience. I committed to a year with them and I learned a lot, but it was a big investment for me financially, so I knew I was only going to be able to do a year. And so I did everything they told me to do. I was very disciplined, consistent. I wanted to learn as much as I could so that when my year was over, I would feel like I could go it on my own. And so one of the things that I did to try to make sure I felt comfortable doing it myself was I got my personal training certificate through nasm. And researching how to do that is how I found Mind Pump. So I've been listening to you guys since I found that first episode. So that's been about a year ago. And my question when I originally sent it in was my year was about to be over with Lindsay, with my trainer, and I didn't know. I knew I wanted to do a Maps program, but I didn't know what I should do. So I went with the Super Bundle because I saw that that would get me through a whole year. And so I went ahead and purchased that. And then I saw the Black Friday sale that you guys were having back in November, and I bought a whole bunch of stuff.

[Adam Schafer]

So you're set?

[Latasha]

I think so. I want to do them all myself. But my thinking was too, if I ever got to a point where I'm training other people, those would be good to have.

[Justin Andrews]

Absolutely smart.

[Latasha]

So I just. I guess I just want to know that I'm on the right track and I'm doing things in proper sequence. I'm about to start phase two of Anabolic. And then, of course, my plan was to do performance after that, but then I started thinking about I do have some imbalances, and I know I'm weaker on my left side. So then I thought maybe I should do symmetry instead. Or do you think it'd still be okay to do performance?

[Sal Destefano]

Well, let's okay, so let's back up for a second. You're doing a great job, Natasha. And I'm reading your email, and it looks like you reverse dieted from 1400 to 2000 calories and in the process lost 10 pounds.

[Latasha]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

Great job.

[Justin Andrews]

Killer.

[Adam Schafer]

Awesome.

[Sal Destefano]

Really good job. And how is that all going now? Where are you at? Are you still tracking? Are you moving out of that phase? What's going on?

[Latasha]

I am still tracking because I'm afraid anytime I try to do it on my own and just track protein, I go way over on fat. Fat. I love peanut butter and cheese. And if I'm not watching fat, I'll get way off.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Latasha]

So I do. I do track it, but right now I stay between 2100 and 2200 calories.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay.

[Latasha]

I'm getting 184 grams of protein, 200 carbs, and 75 fat right now.

[Sal Destefano]

You're doing great.

[Adam Schafer]

Doing great.

[Sal Destefano]

You're doing great.

[Latasha]

So that's not too much for protein.

[Sal Destefano]

No, no, you're fine.

[Adam Schafer]

You're in a great place.

[Sal Destefano]

So here's the. And then here's the next next phase for you with nutrition because you're in this great place. The next phase, it's another big hurdle. Okay? So, like, the initial hurdle people tend to go through is they start tracking, and then the next hurdle is increasing my calories. The fear of, oh, my God, am I getting all this body fat? So that's a hurdle. Now you're through that, and now you're in this kind of like, I track everything state. The next big hurdle is gonna be moving out of that. So you kind of have this relaxed attitude around diet and don't feel like you have to count everything. It's a big hurdle, but that's the next one for you. So that's what you get to look forward to. But just like the previous ones, it's gonna feel scary and there's gonna be a little bit of back and forth. Okay. But I don't want you to be like, worry about it. Don't fear it. It's coming. And when you get there, it's gonna be great because you're not gonna needyou're not gonna feel like you need to track everything. You'll have tracking in your back pocket for those times when you want to kind of dip in and out of it, see where things are at, but you're not going to have to live there as far as the programming is concerned. Before you started Maps Anabolic, what was your strength training like? Were you doing traditional strength Training. Or was it the. The videos and stuff that you talked about, you know, that you started? Okay.

[Latasha]

Lindsay Lindsey had me on. She wanted to keep with the same schedule that I was working out, and I was doing it five days a week. So she scheduled me something for. For those five days that I was normally doing it anyway, not to disrupt my routine. So she would have me lifting three days a week. Upper body one day, lower body the next, and then a full body.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, good.

[Latasha]

And then she had a day of yoga and a day of just doing core.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, great.

[Sal Destefano]

Nice. And how did you. How do you feel with your. With the traditional strength training lifts? Do you feel confident and solid or do you feel like it's still, you know, like.

[Latasha]

I do. I feel more confident and solid now, obviously, I've been doing it a year, but there were times that I had to research how to do the proper form and all of that because I didn't have her right there with me.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Latasha]

And then, of course, I've been looking at the. The Maps programs and those videos, and I'm doing a barbell back squat of 120 pounds right now.

[Sal Destefano]

Wow.

[Adam Schafer]

Great.

[Sal Destefano]

That's great.

[Latasha]

And I weigh 116, so I figured.

[Sal Destefano]

That's awesome.

[Adam Schafer]

That's awesome.

[Sal Destefano]

You feel. You feel confident and solid in it, stable. Everything feels good.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Latasha]

But I was gonna ask. I've been hearing you guys talk about more about, like, getting a more range of motion with the back squat and getting all the way down. And if I don't have any weight, I can get all the way down. So I don't think I have any mobility issues with that. But at that weight, I can't get

[Adam Schafer]

all the way lower the weight.

[Sal Destefano]

So. Yeah. So I'm going to give you some advice with this. So it's a slow, so increasing range of motion. You want to respect your it. This is where injury happens when people push it too fast and too far. And so you would cut the weight way down. So if you're squatting 120, go down to 60 and go down very controlled, very tight, and go down like a few inches lower than you're used to. Not all the way down, like a few inches. Pause at the bottom, stay tight, come up and just really make the weight feel hard through control and stability. That's how you increase range of motion. What you don't want to do is just push yourself to go all the way down with a heavy weight because you don't have the stability yet. And that's where injury happens. So you would literally go 50%. It's like a big cut in weight. Slow way down even pause at the bottom. And just make sure you're connected to every. Every bit of that Rep. Latasha, are you.

[Adam Schafer]

Are you in our private forum yet?

[Latasha]

I'm in on the school forum.

[Adam Schafer]

Okay. I'm gonna. I'm gonna have Doug put you in the mind pump private forum. One of my favorite things that people do in there is you got a bunch of coaches, trainers, our. Our people that are in there, and they'll. They'll share videos of their squat, their deadlift, to get feedback. And so we're all on there too. And so if you're working on a movement like that and you're trying to. And just do prop your phone up, get a video of yourself squatting or deadlifting, and. And you'll get. I mean, we got Dr. Brink in there. We've got in brilliant minds that can look at the movement and give you great cues or say, great job. You're looking perfect, or whatever. The form's great for that, and so I'm gonna get you in there so you can use that for that reason.

[Sal Destefano]

Do you have Prime Pro?

[Latasha]

I do.

[Sal Destefano]

Good. So. So. So for a trainer, especially, very valuable, but go through that. And you mentioned you noticed some imbalance differences between right and left, which is very common. Go in there, pick a couple movements for the areas that you think you might need help, whether it's hip or ankle or shoulder, whatever, and just practice those movements and stay connected to throughout the. The entire way that you're doing the movement. That'll help a lot with that. I think performance is great if you want to try scaling back and working on unilateral stuff. If you don't have maps 15 symmetry, I'll send that to you.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, good.

[Sal Destefano]

So maps 15 symmetry would be another great program to move to because you're only a year into this, and then after that, you can jump back.

[Adam Schafer]

I like performance, too, though, because it's going to address a lot of the mobility, structure. It's in there.

[Sal Destefano]

They're both good. This is really just you being like.

[Adam Schafer]

Like, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Do I. Do I want to drop the scale?

[Adam Schafer]

Scale, the volume, Any of those three. You can't go wrong. Map 15 symmetry, symmetry, asymmetry, or performance, or any of those three are great choices. After anabolic. Yeah. And.

[Justin Andrews]

And.

[Adam Schafer]

And where you're at right now.

[Latasha]

Okay, so. So getting my range of motion better with my squat and lowering the weight. Should I do that? Go ahead and start doing that now. During anabolic Yep.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Latasha]

And then should I increase my calories from where they are? I'm at 2200.

[Sal Destefano]

How do you feel?

[Latasha]

I feel like it's kind of difficult to get that much protein in. And I know if I increase the calories, I might have to increase the protein as well.

[Adam Schafer]

No, no, you don't. You're good.

[Latasha]

I still get hungry. I still get hungry.

[Adam Schafer]

So if you're hungry, your protein's fine. Your protein's fine. You can get it from carbs or fat, either one.

[Sal Destefano]

In fact, you mentioned something that makes me think that it might be fat that you need. Need? Yeah. That's where you tend to go when you're. When you're eating what you. You know, where you're kind of eating and following.

[Latasha]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, so why don't you bump your calories with some fats?

[Latasha]

Okay, Sounds great.

[Justin Andrews]

Just gave you the green light.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. You can go up 100 calories of fats. Go ahead.

[Alexandra]

Okay.

[Latasha]

When I finish Anabolic, I was thinking of doing just, like, a mini cut, like, decrease the calories for maybe three weeks and then go into maintenance for one week during. Whether I'm doing symmetry or performance. Yep, that'd be good.

[Sal Destefano]

Perfect. Yeah. Perfectly fine. This is a great place for you, Latasha, because. And I want you to feel it out and really take note of what you observe and how you feel. This is going to make you a good trainer because your clients are going to feel all the stuff as well. And once you experience it, you'll be able to communicate it so much better.

[Adam Schafer]

There's a lot of other trainers in the private forum, too, so. Good, good resource for you to communicate with a lot of other coaches and trainers that are, early in their career, been doing it for a long time. You got all of it in there, there?

[Latasha]

Yeah. I've been enjoying the school forum.

[Adam Schafer]

Good, good.

[Latasha]

I've asked you a few questions on there. And that elevator pitch exercise, that's a lot. That's going to take me a long time to get through all those things, but I'm going to try.

[Adam Schafer]

That's great. You're doing great.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, Great. This is a great. I'm so glad you called in. This was great.

[Latasha]

One more question, if that's okay. Could I substitute in Anabolic? Could I substitute the Z press for the shoulder press? I've heard Adam talk about it.

[Sal Destefano]

Absolutely. Have you tried it yet?

[Latasha]

That'd be okay. Yeah, I haven't tried it yet. I watched a video. How to do it.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, you got to Go real light. So. But yeah, absolutely. Great. Great substitution. No problem.

[Adam Schafer]

I prefer that. I prefer you to do that. Yeah. I love that.

[Latasha]

All right. I think that's all I had great questions. Make sure I was. Had my programming bright and I was doing that. And about the macros.

[Sal Destefano]

Good job.

[Adam Schafer]

Doing a great job. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You're totally on track.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep. Stay in touch with us. Okay.

[Latasha]

All right. Thanks for making yourself so accessible.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you. Thank you.

[Adam Schafer]

Keep it up, Latasha.

[Latasha]

Okay, thanks.

[Sal Destefano]

Bye. Bye. You know what's encouraging for me personally when people like her call in is good trainers are getting into the space. She's got the right, you know, motives. Her character sounds good.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Her logic and reasoning through all this is, like, on point.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. She's humble. It's gonna be a great. She'll be a great coach. She'll be able to help a lot of people. It makes me feel good.

[Adam Schafer]

Now her experience that she's going through.

[Sal Destefano]

Totally.

[Adam Schafer]

Will be able to translate really well to coaching people.

[Sal Destefano]

Totally.

[Host/Moderator]

Our next caller is Alexandra from New York.

[Adam Schafer]

Alexandra, how are you?

[Alexandra]

Hi. Thank you so much for taking my call.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

How are you? How can we help you?

[Alexandra]

Good. So my name is Alexandra. I'm 30 years old. I'm a special education teacher. I played sports my whole life, mostly basketball through high school, and then in college, I was a Division 1 javelin thrower, and that is where I learned about strength. So I really fell in love with strength, and I started powerlifting after that for about five years. While I've achieved a lot athletically, everything was kind of against the backdrop of severe binge eating, restricting, and over exercising. I took a break from powerlifting, just continuing to lift for aesthetics. But currently I started running max power lifts because I find that working on strength takes my focus off of my appearance and is better for my mental health regarding fitness. However, I still really struggle with badly binge eating, restricting, and over exercising. Even though I eat mostly whole foods and keep nothing processed in my apartment, I find myself spiraling and binging on random healthy foods like rice cakes and oatmeal. I've gained a lot of weight over the years from this binge restrict cycle, and I just so badly want to feel normal around food and enjoy a meal out with my family or my boyfriend without obsessing over calories and macros. I have a master's degree in nutrition, and I've worked with countless coaches, therapists, and dietitians. But this is something I can't seem to move past. As much as I know, like, the logic and the science behind it. It's really frustrating because I put so many hours into training and so much energy into my diet and trying to figure this out, but I feel like I have nothing to show for it. I currently run 15 to 20 miles per week. I lift four times a week with max power lift, and I do peloton cycling classes on my days that I don't run. I eat 14 to 1600 calories a day. But my binging negates any progress that I ever make, and I always feel like I'm starting over. Your show has helped me so much over the years, but I still really struggle with balance, and I would appreciate any advice you can give me on this.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, thanks for calling in.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep.

[Sal Destefano]

I can tell right now you're really excessively hard on yourself. And the. Just by the way you're talking about it, that. How hard you are on yourself, that shame is contributing to this whole cycle and process. So, number one, you got to give yourself a little bit of grace. You're doing great. You said you binge on healthy foods, and then you said, you know, essentially what I hear from you is how disappointed you are in yourself. And you don't reflect fitness. First of all, you do reflect fitness. I could tell just by looking at your shoulders. I think anybody who knows you would probably say that. And I don't think you would treat a friend or a family member or somebody that you were helping the same way you're treating yourself. And so that's the root of this. The root of this is that shame spiral, and we need to interrupt that. And it's not natural to interrupt it. What's natural for you is what you've always done. Okay, so it's going to feel very awkward and weird to interrupt all of this. So we got to start with. Let's back up for a second. What does it feel like when you're binging?

[Alexandra]

Very out of control. And sometimes it feels like. This sounds weird to say, but it almost feels like a relief sometimes because, like, I'm not, like, tracking anything or weighing anything, and I'm just like, oh, like, I could breathe, like. And I've definitely noticed that, like, that's something, because I've been trying to pay more attention recently to, like, like, how it feels and stuff, and that's something I've noticed. It feels like a relief, but it also feels, like, very out of control. And, like, I have to get it in now because I'm not gonna to get it later.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, that's because you needed the break. Because before the binge, you were starving yourself and you were tyrannizing yourself.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

So it's like you live under the roof of a parent that's just constantly criticizing you, constantly controlling you with shame and criticism and control. And then you just can't handle anymore and you escape just to get a break for a day so you can come back to that. That household that criticizes you. And part of the fear is that if you don't criticize yourself and control yourself, that you're going to live in that escape. So if I don't control this all the time, then that binge is going to be how I'm going to be all the time. But that's a lie. That's actually a lie.

[Adam Schafer]

It's not true.

[Sal Destefano]

That's actually a lie. The binge and the escape and the relief that you feel is coming from the over control and criticism and hate that you're. That you're. You're giving to yourself.

[Adam Schafer]

It's also coming from your body screaming at you that you need to feed

[Sal Destefano]

me on top of it.

[Adam Schafer]

You. With the amount of training, running and cycling you're doing.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

1600 calories is starving your body. Like, you should be double that with that kind of activity.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

So. And so you're doing that for days on. I don't know how many days in a row you get of 1600 calories and training that way. And your body is trying to tell you every day, we need a lot more fuel than this. We need a lot more fuel than this. And then you finally break. And so part of what Sal's saying is true. So is also the part that you need to be fed way more than that. Yeah, way more than that. So you're not only are you wrestling with the. This psychological thing that you're going back and forth and punishing yourself thing, but you're also wrestling with your body needs way more than that. That's like a double whammy. The. The. The answer is somewhere in the middle of this, and you'll be okay. Especially if you're a Whole Foods eater. Like, you're gonna be. You're gonna be all right. Do you.

[Sal Destefano]

Do you. Can you. Do you think it. Would it be too much to cut down your training and eat more? Would that be too big of a step? And you could be totally honest.

[Alexandra]

I mean, I. I worked with a coach, and I did it before, and I cut my running, like, in half, and I. I was so scared that I was gonna, like, blow up because I've Been doing that for so many years. Like, I've been running so much for so many years, but, like, I didn't. But I think that adding food in addition to that would be, like, scary for me. And that's. That's really what I feel like. I know I need to eat more. Like, I know that the binging is, like, my body wanting more food.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Alexandra]

Especially because I'm binging on, like, rice cakes and oatmeal. Like, I'm not even binging on, like, junk food anymore. It's more just like, whatever I can get. So I know that my body needs more food, but I feel so guilty when I do eat more food. And then that will set off me into, like a spiral.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. So let's take one step. Let's take one step first. And it is gonna be scary, so it's gonna suck, but we do gotta take a step. So it's gonna be either eat more or it's gonna be train less. And you can pick which one. And the next step is gonna. Now, here's the thing. I gotta communicate to you. You're not going to think your way out of this because I think you know all the stuff, and I think you did what the coach told you because you were like, okay, this is the right thing to do. But it never moved from your head to your heart. In other words, it never became like you felt this was the right thing. It was like, I know this is the right thing, but it still feels like I got to beat myself up. It still feels like I got to go back, which is why you probably went back to so much running and why you kind of, whatever, rebounded or whatever, you know, word you want to use. So you're not going to think your way out of this. So we have to do is we have to change your. Your just the feeling around it, you know, we have to change your heart, essentially, which means you're going to have to interrupt some of these cycles, and that's going to be really uncomfortable. So here's what that looks like. A lot of pausing, a lot of reflecting, a lot of journaling. And it's going to. And you're not going to want to. In the middle of a binge or right before a binge. The last thing you're going to want to do is take out a piece of paper and write what you're feeling. Because all we want to do in that state of mind is stay totally out of mind. We want to just let go because that's all we want. And so we have to interrupt that with journaling. And the journaling might look like, I just want to eat 15 rice cakes or I just want to go crazy on oatmeal. And then you just keep writing and keep writing. And then it may be like, I actually need to eat more. I think the reason why I feel this way is because I'm eating too little. And then keep writing and keep writing. I just want to go. I just want to stop. I hate this. And then keep writing and then keep writing and then stop and then go do what you need to do. And then when you're done with it, come back and you're going to write again. And what you're going to write is, I love you. I forgive you. This is hard. This is tough. I'm going to keep moving, and it's going to suck. It's going to feel super awkward. It's going to feel like, I don't want to do this. But it's a cha. It has. You have to interrupt those behaviors and start that process. And so it's got to be a conscious effort of making yourself feel awkward through this process. But I would start with. Personally, I would prefer you to eat more first, but if you feel like that's too big of a step, cut down your exercise. And then when you feel like I can take the next step, then take the next step.

[Adam Schafer]

This is. I mean, I would. I would love for you to work with one of our coaches just because I feel like Sal and us are trying to cram all this in. In one call. And this is not a one call conversation. It's not a, like, like, no matter how smart we are and all the answers that we can give you, this

[Sal Destefano]

will take, like, six months.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, this is. It's. It's. It's hard, and it will be hard. And there'll be. We can give you all the right answers. You can go start to apply them, and then you're going to have a challenge, a plateau, a setback back, a struggle. And to not have, you know, the coach in your ear to go like, hey, you're doing a great job. This is perfect. This is exactly what I expect. That's the hard part. You know, like, we can tell you all day long what you need to do. I feel like, you know, what you kind of need to do. It's kind of having somebody along that process through you. So if you were open to, you know, going with a coach, I'd love one of my trainers to. To work through this with you, because I I know that it's not easy, easy.

[Justin Andrews]

That positive self talk is so powerful. If you can just start incorporating that somehow, whether journaling or saying it to yourself or, you know, really giving yourself that grace is going to move the needle for sure.

[Sal Destefano]

Alexandra. It probably feels so weird to try to give yourself grace because you're afraid if you give yourself too much grace, then you go off the deep ends and get obese.

[Alexandra]

Yeah. Like, I. I am so scared that, like, once I stop tracking or once I stop, like, weighing myself, that I'm just gonna blow up.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Alexandra]

And, like, I'm. I also, like, I'm so used to being an athlete where, like, you just do more. And I'm. I'm also, like, 15 years removed from that, so I don't know why, like, I'm so stuck in that mindset, but I. I can't seem to, like, break out of it.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, stop. Stop right there. You're doing it again.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

You're giving your. Beating yourself up a little bit. Bit super normal. Yep. This is almost everybody in the fitness industry.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. Every trainer and fitness influencer knows exactly what you're talking about. So. But I'm telling you right now, it's a lie. It's a lie that if you don't beat yourself up that. That the other end of that is worse. You can't hate yourself into better health. That's what you're feeling right now. It feels like mental. Mental turmoil, which is what I hear from you. Right, Right. And. And so. But it's a total lie that if I don't hate myself and I don't keep my thumb on myself and I don't control myself, I'm going to go in this crazy other direction. So I have to do that. And then every once in a while, I interrupt that with, like, a freedom break. Like, I can't handle this anymore. This pressure is too much. So now what a coach is going to do, because giving yourself grace is so. Is going to be so. It's alien. You're not going to want to do it is you're going to outsource the grace. So you're going to go to your coach and you're going to say, and the more honest you are with the coach, the more effective they're going to be. So it's going to be like, oh, my God, I feel like I need, like, you got to be totally honest. Don't try to be logical. Oh, my God, I feel like such an idiot. Or I can't believe I'M doing this again, and the coach is going to give you grace and then accept it, and then that's going to teach you to do it for yourself. And again, we're cramming this in a 10 minute conversation. But the process is going to be you're going to hit these roadblocks. You're going to totally stumble. I promise. You're going to stumble throughout the whole process. But little by little by little, it's going to start to change for you. And you're probably six months away from a radically different relationship with this kind of stuff. So that's kind of what it's going to look like. But, I mean, Adam's right. Working with somebody through this process is going to be your best bet for sure.

[Alexandra]

Yeah. I mean, I've dealt with this for, like, 17 years at this point. So six months sounds like very fast. You know, it's like, okay, what's six more months? But I've also, like, a little jaded because I've worked with so many coaches and people that, you know, promised they were gonna help and then they just threw meal plans at me. And then the second I went off the meal plan by a crumb, I was spiral.

[Adam Schafer]

That's not what you need. That's not what you need.

[Sal Destefano]

You don't need a macro coach.

[Adam Schafer]

No, no, no, no.

[Sal Destefano]

That's the wrong.

[Justin Andrews]

No, man.

[Adam Schafer]

No, no, no.

[Sal Destefano]

That's the opposite.

[Adam Schafer]

That's not what you need.

[Sal Destefano]

That's the opposite of what you need.

[Adam Schafer]

When we hang out up, we can have one of our coaches call you one of our trainers. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

We know the perfect one.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. Who's been coached and trained by us and we oversee all the programs. So that's not what it looks like.

[Sal Destefano]

You don't need macro counting. You don't need, like, this crazy structure. Follow this diet plan. That's not your solution.

[Alexandra]

Yeah, no. I've tried every single macro amount and.

[Adam Schafer]

No, no, no.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, yeah.

[Alexandra]

I just need to, like, be okay with eating. And also too, like, I always think about it too. Like, I've gained weight over the years, but for the most part, my body has stayed within the same, probably £10. And that's with binging. So if I would just eat more every day, I probably wouldn't gain weight. So logically, I know that you can't.

[Sal Destefano]

It's got to get out of your head. You're not going to think you're out of it. You have to feel it. You're just not feeling it.

[Adam Schafer]

Well, this is the reason why I'm Pointing towards a coach is because this is not a. You don't know. And it's not a mathematical equation that we can answer for you in one phone call. And then you're like, oh, perfect, now I can go and do it. It's. That's not the answer. It's a. It's a step by step process, and it will be hard, and there will be setbacks, and there'll be moments in this process where you'll get frustrated, you'll want to beat yourself up. The good coach will tell you, no, you're doing great. This is perfect. This is right where I want you. Like, that's. That's what. That. It's a process and you. And that's what you have to go through. It's not a. It's not a mathematical formula you're missing.

[Sal Destefano]

Here's why I think you're going to do great, because you. You went on a public, public podcast. You're talking about. You're very honest. You're not holding anything back.

[Justin Andrews]

Lots of courage.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, dude. So that's like the. By the way, it's the biggest, hardest step.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes.

[Sal Destefano]

If. If I can't get somebody to do what you're doing, there's no help, there's no hope. But you're, like, coming out. You're talking about it. You're very honest about it. I think you're gonna do perfectly fine.

[Adam Schafer]

The other side of this is awesome. The other side of this is really cool.

[Sal Destefano]

It's gonna feel relaxed.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

You're gonna like this a lot.

[Adam Schafer]

Way less effort, way less holding on, and a healthier, fitter, stronger version of yourself.

[Sal Destefano]

Totally.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

And Fuller get to eat more.

[Latasha]

Yeah.

[Alexandra]

Yeah. That sounds nice.

[Adam Schafer]

Yes. Yes. Well, when we hang up, we'll have. We'll have one of our coaches call you and then look forward to seeing you.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Latasha]

Thank you.

[Alexandra]

Thank you guys so much.

[Adam Schafer]

Thank you.

[Sal Destefano]

Thanks for calling in.

[Alexandra]

Bye.

[Sal Destefano]

Poor kid. Yeah, I feel that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah. No, there's. There's nothing you say in this call.

[Sal Destefano]

I'll use myself as an example. I know everything about this stuff. Like I talk about. That's what I do for a living. I've been doing this forever. It's hard for me to do it to myself. It is totally different. I can't think my way through it. It just doesn't work. You gotta feel. You gotta learn how to feel differently, which is a very different, much more difficult process.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah. The middle for her is probably so. I mean, eat 1600 and then she probably binges like crazy because her body's so hungry, she could probably cruise around.

[Sal Destefano]

She's got the mental and physical signals that are just going crazy.

[Adam Schafer]

Oh, yeah. I mean, she could probably cruise around 23, 2500 calories, eating full, balanced and half the training and see incredible results.

[Sal Destefano]

That's right.

[Host/Moderator]

Our next caller is Joe from Texas.

[Sal Destefano]

Joe, what's happening?

[Adam Schafer]

How you doing, Joe?

[Caller Joe]

Hey, how's it going, guys?

[Sal Destefano]

Good, dude. What's going on?

[Caller Joe]

Hey, first, thanks for taking my question. Hopefully be very helpful, I'm sure. I guess I'll just read the email. It's the easiest thing people do, seems like. So I started with should I skip leg day? I know you always hear never skip leg day. My question is because I naturally have a lot of muscle mass in my lower body. Just kind of like, like family genes, I guess. No pun intended. So background, I guess I've been a cop for 17 years. Kind of worked out the whole time doing that. Started with a lot of CrossFit, finally came to my senses, moved away from that about seven or eight years ago, found out I had really low testosterone. So I started trt. So that's definitely helped with the like muscle responsiveness, the workouts. But unfortunately that also includes my, my, like quads and my glutes. So whenever I do squats and lower body stuff, like it's super responsive and just blows up. But I end up with, to quote the, like, I guess the philosophers, Yin yang twins, cute face, some waist, but a big behind. So got big quads, but like a 32 inch waist. So if I buy pants or shorts that fit my waistline, man, they're super tight on my legs and my butt. But if I go up to say a 34 where they fit comfortably around my legs and my butt, then they're super baggy around my waistline. So just looking for some insight there.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, good problem to have, bro.

[Sal Destefano]

The reason why people say don't skip leg day is because they always skip leg day.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, because. Well, because they have no legs and they have all upper body. Yeah, that's not your problem. Yeah, dude, this is. I think, I think everybody has a body part. Not everybody's lucky enough for it to be legs and butt, but everybody has a body part that responds really well that you can get away with doing. Very minimal volume, very. And skipping it all the time.

[Sal Destefano]

So yeah, as long as you're strong, I mean, you're strong, right? Balance, it's not like your legs like you were. You've been training for a while, you've trained your whole body for a while, right? Yeah.

[Caller Joe]

So I guess just to throw some numbers at you. When I was tracking my, my maxis, which I haven't done in a while just to kind of prevent injury. Deadlift, one rep was like 4:50, squat was like 3:50, and then benches around 265. I think.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, you can very easily, and I don't recommend this often, but you're trying to work on aesthetics. I mean, you could literally train your legs every other week.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, that's exactly what I do. Once every two weeks I train my

[Sal Destefano]

legs and that'll just, that'll keep them healthy, keep them strong, fit. You're not going to get weak or anything like that.

[Adam Schafer]

Yep.

[Sal Destefano]

And you're just obviously, you know, much more focused on the upper body to help balance out, just maintaining it. That's it.

[Latasha]

It.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah.

[Caller Joe]

Okay, cool. Yeah, because I definitely don't want to lose any strength. Like, I don't have a problem with getting stronger. It just seems like when I do anything to work them out to get them stronger, they immediately like just start blowing.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, well, there's not, it's not like there's, there's not an exercise that's going to get them stronger and not build them. If you respond like that, like that's just what it is, is you're gonna, you're gonna, you're. And it's. Again, it's not a bad. Sal's right. Like you, if you train once every two weeks, you're not going to get weak.

[Sal Destefano]

Nope. You, you'll, you'll be fine. They'll stay healthy.

[Adam Schafer]

They'll still, they'll stay healthy. They'll be strong, you know, and, and mix it up like it's squatting one time, no time it's walking lunges other time it's deadlift or sled. Yeah. Sometimes it's a lateral. Yeah, lateral drags. I mean, just mess with the different things you do for them every other week and they'll stay strong, mobile. And then folk use, use that reduced volume there to put it in the areas that you want to develop, whether that be chest, shoulders, arms back, whatever the other, other things you want to really focus on.

[Sal Destefano]

You can give it about a year. You'll see, you'll see yourself start to balance out.

[Caller Joe]

Awesome. I appreciate it, fellas.

[Sal Destefano]

You got it, man. Yeah, thanks for calling in, brother.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, you guys have a good one.

[Sal Destefano]

Take it easy. That's not common, but it's.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean, it's a Justin problem.

[Sal Destefano]

It's a T. Rex. Body.

[Adam Schafer]

I mean Justin squats once every three months. I mean, can you. Do you, do you. Out of all seriousness, do you. I do this with my arms. Right. Because. Yeah, no, I trade volume. I'll go, I'll go sometimes three weeks, not even train my arms at all. And then you know. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

The advice you guys give, especially like, like alternating that too with like sled or more functional move. I really, it's a movement based. So I try to maintain strength in my abilities more so than like trying to get leg, I don't really need leg development.

[Adam Schafer]

Right. Like I don't think I've ever really seen you like squat like three weeks in a row, twice a week.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I don't think ever since like football days.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, like I don't think I ever see like progressively overloading the squat. Like you're always doing something.

[Sal Destefano]

I do that when my, my quads grow really fast. So I train by the volume I do for my quad is way lower my body because they just, they just respond really well. The, the thing is as long as you're strong and fit. So here's when this becomes an issue, you're just not strong at all. You just started working out and you're like, I just want to skip this body part. No, no, get it strong and fit.

[Adam Schafer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Because now you're going to create some dysfunction.

[Adam Schafer]

You're definitely over 400 pounds, you're squatting over 300 pounds, you're fine. That's, that's plenty good straight. And if you also say that you got thick big legs, like you're totally fine.

[Sal Destefano]

Look, if you like the show, come find us on Instagram Mind Pump Media. We'll see you there.

[Host/Moderator]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to, to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes Maps, Anabolic Maps, Performance and Maps Aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body moves, looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support. And until next time, this is Mind Pump.

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