2815: Mark Mastrov Sold a $1.7B Gym Empire… Then Bought It Back

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth

Episode 2815: Mark Mastrov
Date: March 16, 2026
Host(s): Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Guest: Mark Mastrov, founder of 24 Hour Fitness

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Episode Overview

This episode features Mark Mastrov, often called the "godfather of the gym industry," who recounts his journey founding 24 Hour Fitness, his dramatic return to the company, and his insights on building and evolving gym businesses. Mastrov discusses his business philosophy, leadership strategies, the transformation of the fitness industry, current and future trends, and the personal side of his career. The discussion is an honest, behind-the-scenes look at the realities of running (and sometimes reclaiming) massive gym chains, adapting to industry shifts, and mentoring enduring fitness business leaders.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Mark Mastrov's Return to 24 Hour Fitness

• [03:21] Mastrov narrates his recent deal to reclaim 24 Hour Fitness, negotiating for months, securing capital, and becoming active at the start of the year.

  • "Kind of wanted to bring back, buy the baby back, so to speak, and spent two months negotiating... finally got them to agree to my price." – Mark Mastrov [03:34]

• He details the convoluted exit in 2005, loss of operational control, and the mismanagement that followed.

2. Real Stories from the Gym Business

• [04:36–09:28] Mastrov pulls back the curtain on boardroom struggles, recapping failed promises from new owners, disastrous decisions (e.g., $2.5M management fees, mismanaged Asia expansion), and being outvoted or ignored despite his expertise.

  • "I was busting my ass for them... and they just fucking fumbled it all. So I said, maybe it's time for me to go do something else, because you guys are not the smartest kid in the world." – Mark Mastrov [14:09]
  • Memorable mishap: Buyers force the sale of Asian clubs at the wrong time, losing $160M, and eventually bankrupting that division.

• Offers a candid view of high-level business dynamics, emphasizing how crucial leadership and operational discipline are.

3. Behind Crunch Fitness’s Rebirth & Franchising

• [15:58–19:33] Mastrov explains buying Crunch out of bankruptcy, negotiating down bank debt, and installing a new leadership/franchise-based model.

  • "My suggestion is to put this in a bankruptcy and move on... they respected what you said. Would you be willing to put it in a bankruptcy with us and then pull it back out and rebuild it?" – Mark Mastrov [15:58–16:22]

• He details how he brought together key former colleagues to drive success at Crunch.

• "If we turn the marketing machine on it, it's a very cool brand... And we turned it very fast." – Mark Mastrov [19:45]

4. Leadership Philosophy & Building Loyalty

• [20:18–23:53] Mastrov credits his success to building loyal teams and sharing equity.

  • "Replace yourself with people who are better... My job is to mentor, to fund, to back and develop people and allow them to live to their dream." – Mark Mastrov [20:51]
  • He places himself "at the bottom of the pyramid" to support his team and is constantly accessible.

• Identifies talent by watching employees in real settings, testing them under pressure, and assessing character through social interactions.

5. The Changing Gym Landscape

• [26:46–34:07] Analysis of fitness industry trends:

  • Fragile post-COVID economics, the rise of HVLP (high-value, low-price) models, new emphasis on spa/recovery/medical components.
  • Plans for 24 Hour Fitness: simplifying pricing, renewed push on personal training & nutrition, substantial capital for remodeling and expansion.
    • "We're going to bring back nutrition... bring back personal training... remodel about 60 clubs... try and open six or eight... buy eight or 10..." – Mark Mastrov [28:35]

• Gen Z factor: Huge new demographic driving demand for strength training, unique gym amenities, and social connectivity.

6. Technology and the Future: Melding Medispa & Fitness

• [30:12–32:11] Mastrov discusses plans for “the club of the future” with medical spa services (body scans, GLP-1s, peptides, IV therapy), high-end recovery equipment, and an emphasis on the social side of fitness.
  • "We're going to equip it with the latest and greatest, craziest stuff... We're starting to hit the big stuff and people are going to go crazy for some of the treatments they've never tried." – Mark Mastrov [31:09]

7. The Vital Role of Personal Training (PT)

• [33:00–36:23] Mastrov and hosts all agree: gyms neglecting PT is a grave error.
  • COVID accelerated trainers becoming independent or leaving the industry, hurting in-gym PT; 24's comeback plan is to rebuild that pipeline.
  • Quote: "Personal training is super important because everybody trains, but they don't watch their nutrition, they don't know how to lift properly... the trainer plays this massive role in helping people get on the right path." – Mark Mastrov [34:10]

8. Human Connection vs. Automation

• [35:37–37:01] Mastrov is bullish on community/coach-led models, despite the coming wave of AI/automation in fitness:
  • "At the end of the day, I think we're in a great space because we want community, we want experience, we want to touch and feel... AI is going to play its role, but we want to be with each other."

9. Operations & Design: Details that Matter

• [46:43–48:22] Mastrov highlights modern gym design trends:

  • Expansion of free weight and powerlifting spaces, catering to both men and women, incorporating vintage and specialty equipment for social media appeal.
  • "Kids today get after it. They really are training hard... they want something nobody else has, right. They wanted something unique. They want to post it on social media."

• He notes facilities now run busy all day due to remote work, and physical layout (open plans, mezzanines, natural light) is crucial for vibe and success (see [66:52–69:54]).

10. Group X and Programming Evolution

• Addressing whether group exercise is dead: "I love Group X. I never hated it... certain classes are packed; Zumba has never gone away… Pilates has gone nuts." – Mark Mastrov [49:13]
• Emphasizes innovation (unique classes, integration in new franchises) keeps group programming relevant.

11. Industry Trends, Competition, and Collaboration

• Mastrov reflects on the “missing middle” in gyms—mid-priced clubs squeezed by premium and budget models, noting the actual price point often converges in the $25–$75 a month range due to up-sells and amenities.
• Discusses talent draining from old brands to new franchises or independent ventures post-COVID.
• Open to collaborations with influencers/podcasts for new gym launches — "It's definitely on the list." [54:49]

12. Mentoring and Family: Passing the Torch

• Details his efforts to keep family at the center, support his kids’ diverse ambitions, and how his wife enabled balance.
• "My job was to mentor, train and develop. Right. Which is what I do at work and what I do at home." – Mark Mastrov [80:23]

13. Classic Mastrov Insights & Humorous Asides

• Legendary stories: Making deals with outlaw biker Sonny Barger ([60:09]); the impact of staff charisma and sales training on both fitness and business success, even producing NFL GMs from former staff.
• Iconic gym strategy: Realizing people prefer to watch gym activity, leading to mezzanine and catwalk designs ([66:45–67:51]).
• Competitive edge: Not shy about direct confrontation with rivals if needed — "I would take my club in a remodel before you even started construction. I'd lower my price ... hammer you and put you out of business."
• Lighthearted moments: Aliens eating the “fat ones” first ([87:16]); accidental escalator-to-the-gym designs.

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "Kind of wanted to bring back, buy the baby back, so to speak." – Mark Mastrov [03:34]
• "You want to be successful in business, you can't do it all yourself... I'm happy to share the pie." – Mark Mastrov [20:51, 21:41]
• "My view is that I'm in the upside down pyramid... I'm at the bottom and I work for you. You don't work for me." – Mark Mastrov [22:33]
• "People are recognizing to live longer and live healthier, you gotta do some strength training." – Mark Mastrov [39:00]
• "Fitness is having its moment right now." – Mark Mastrov [40:31]
• "Attention to detail inside the facility... the amenities you wanted... parking lot—because the parking lot often controlled the success of your business." – Mark Mastrov [65:43]
• "Natural light is really important... People don't want to work out in a dungeon." – Mark Mastrov [69:54]
• "I don't like when people fuck with me, I just have a tendency to love to compete... I will not stop sleeping, thinking about it and basically just get after it." – Mark Mastrov [75:46]
• "Selling is super important, I think, for life. And if you're great at it, you always follow the best salespeople." – Mark Mastrov [63:23]
• "Be great at home... If you're balanced at home, you're kicking ass at work." – Mark Mastrov [74:09]

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Important Timestamps by Topic

• Intro & Mastrov’s 24hr Return: [03:21–04:36]
• Exit from 24hr & Boardroom Drama: [04:36–15:47]
• Crunch Acquisition & Turnaround: [15:47–19:33]
• Leadership Philosophy & Loyalty: [20:18–23:53]
• Industry Trends & Club of the Future: [26:46–32:11]
• Personal Training & Human Connection: [33:00–37:01]
• Gym Design/Operations Details: [46:43–48:22], [66:45–69:54]
• Group X and Programming: [49:13–51:28]
• Competition & Industry Evolution: [43:01–44:56], [54:49–56:21], [75:26–77:11]
• Mentorship, Family Balance, Parenting Insights: [72:12–83:38]
• Legendary Gym Stories & Culture: [60:09–61:58], [67:51–69:16], [87:16–88:09]

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Final Thoughts

This episode delivers a rare, candid, and sometimes gritty masterclass in gym business, leadership, and industry evolution from one of the founding giants of fitness franchising. The insights are invaluable for anyone in fitness, entrepreneurship, or operations—offering wisdom on people management, reinvention, adapting to technology, and prioritizing community and human connection in a rapidly changing world.

"If you're a trainer or aspiring trainer, the opportunity in fitness has never been bigger. Get after it." – Summed up by the entire Mind Pump crew

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Transcript

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If you want to p and expand

[Mark Mastrov]

your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump.

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With your hosts Sal Destefano, Adam Schafer

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and Justin Andrews, you just found the

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most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Today's episode we brought back the godfather of the gym industry, Mark Mastroff. This is the guy that wrote the book on how to build a successful gym franchise. He's the founder, the Original founder of 24 Hour Fitness and he's still heavily involved in the gym business. In fact, he came back to 24 Hour Fitness and he tells that story. He's getting his baby back. So this is an incredible episode. Always a good time with Mark. By the way, if you're a trainer or an aspiring trainer, we have a group for trainers. It's literally organized and designed to teach trainers how to be successful. And you can get in there for seven days for free. It's elite trainergroup.com you can go there, sign up, get in the group, it's seven days for free. Learn some stuff. By the way, in that seven day period, we have a webinar taught by our education head of education and who's gonna teach you how to make money as a trainer. How do you build a career as a personal trainer? Again, if you're a trainer, an aspiring trainer, get into the Mind Pump group so you can develop your skills and build an incredible business one more time. EliteTrainerGroup.com now this episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one, or this one is ketone iq. So if you want the benefits of running on ketones like you would on a ketogenic diet. So when people run a ketogenic diet, they feel sharper mentally, they feel less inflammation, they just feel good. But the problem is you can't eat carbs, right? A ketogenic diet is zero carbs. Well, check it out. If you use ketone iq, if you drink ketone iq, even if you eat carbs, you don't have to change your diet. You now have ketones in your system and your brain and your body can run off of them. You feel great. You got focus. It feels incredible. And you don't have to avoid carbohydrates. Go check it out. Go to ketone.com, that's K-E-T-O-N-E.com mindpump. That link will get you 30% off your subscription, plus you'll get a free gift with your second shipment. We also have a sale on a new bundle, the spring bundle of workout programs, Maps Symmetry, Maps prime, and the advanced training techniques guide all together in this bundle, over 50% off, 147. That's it. Go to mapsmarch.com all right, real quick.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

If you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

training gear [e-mail] I'm talking right now. Hit pause, Head on over to my pumpstore.com. that's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Mark, welcome back to the show.

[Mark Mastrov]

Hey, thanks for having me.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

This is awesome. All right, I gotta open with this. So what's going on with you in 24 Fitness, the company that you founded? You left a long time ago. What's happening?

[Mark Mastrov]

I think last time I was on, we were talking a lot about that and how I left and what I thought. But, you know, it came back to me. You know, I took crunch to the market last year, and we had a very successful transaction in June with the team there. And then I stepped off the board and was looking at myself in July and got a phone call that, hey, 24 might be available if you want to make a run at it. And I was like, well, hell, yeah, I'll make a run at it. Kind of wanted to bring back, buy the baby back, so to speak, and spent two months negotiating a term sheet with the current ownership group they had at the time and finally got them to agree to my price, my structure, and we signed it. And then I went out and raised the capital, brought in this group called Long Range Capital as my partner, and then finished the debt facility at the end of the year and got it closed on 31st December. So effective the beginning of this year, was able to step back in and kind of have some fun and reignite that brand. And she's Got a great team there, so it should be nothing but blue sky.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Now. You say this so calm and cool and diplomatic about this, but you have to take. For the audience that doesn't know, you have to take us back to the day leaving. I don't know how much you can or will share about what it felt like to grow that thing to what you grew to. To exit 2 point something billion.

[Mark Mastrov]

171 7. Okay.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

To 17 billion that you exit that thing for you stay on the board, leave. Not really. Probably the way you expected to leave. So I want to know how that felt, what you were going through in that moment. And then when you leave, do you picture this day down the road? Like, are you thinking or are you thinking, I'm going to go compete and go crush.

[Mark Mastrov]

I mean you always think like you can go back and buy something you built because they may screw it up, fuck it up, all that good stuff. But I think when, when I sold the company in 05, which is like 20 plus years ago, I was staying with whoever bought it. They all wanted me not to sell a single share. Stay, keep rolling. And I had a lot of people at the table and then this last group came in, forced me a little and said, look, we're going to buy it. We're going to give you a much bigger number. We're going to preempt it, but we don't need you. What do you mean you don't need me? We don't need you. We got people we can bring in. I was like, oh, okay. And so I'm out completely. And then about two weeks before close, they come back to me and say, look, we got a recap accounting issue where we have to have a significant role by some shareholder. Would you roll? And so I kind of took the bullet for the team and let everybody else exit. I rolled a decent chunk over and then I just stayed on as chairman. And then they went out and hired a team to come in. And that team to me, just made every mistake you can possibly make from the beginning of time. Blew through cash, brought in consultants to the point where we were in Covenant Default heading into Covenant Default at the end of 07.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Now, are you when this is happening? Are you. I mean, you're obviously on the board, so you have a vote.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Are you just sounding the alarm the whole time? Yeah.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

And are you outnumbered? I mean, what's happening?

[Mark Mastrov]

No, I mean, Ted Forston was a storied guy. Built Gulfstream, made a ton of money, and he bought this business kind of as a last minute spend. He bought IMG, and then he bought us at 24 hour, wrote a big check and funded it. And he made me five promises in the transaction, and he. He failed all five. You know, one of them was he had 500 million of dry powder that we could use to grow with. And three months later, I'm like, hey, I want to deploy that capital. I got this big acquisition. I had to give it back. I don't have it anymore. Like, what are you talking about? That's part of our deal terms. He's like, well, I lost it. The other one was, you know, I can give you all five. But the other one was, no fee, right? I don't want the VCs to charge a big fee. And probably two months in, he's like, I'm going to charge $2.5 million annual management fee. I go, no, you can't send Ryde. You can't. He goes, five sue me, right? Wow. So you're like, okay, I'm gonna sue my new partner and okay, I guess I'm not doing that then. The last one was his team. There's a guy named Tom Lister who was the lead on the deal. Ted played very little role. He had three really sharp people that came in and did all the diligence and cut the deal with me and everything. I said, are you guys staying? Because in the past, I've seen, you know, the head VC disappear. No, we're staying forever, Mark. We're not leaving. Month three, they're gone. They all quit, all took new jobs. And so you get handed all that, and you're like, you know, this is pretty interesting. So I started looking at the financials, and the CEO they brought in was spending money like a drunken sailor on consultants. You know, bringing in Bain and employment consultants. And I said to him, I said, look, I think we got a problem here. So I called Ted and said, look, I think you're going into Covenant Default. He goes, what are you talking about? I just looked at the books. I go, no, you're going into Covenant Default. You're spending more money than you have on. Than you're supposed to have on the books. So he said, well, can you fly to New York? I said, yeah. So I flew to New York the next day, where he was based. The CEO at that time was in the room. And I walked in, which I didn't expect. And he's like, show me. He tells the CEO, show me, you know, how we're doing. He goes, we're doing great. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Ted goes, mark, we're doing fine. I go, let me show you how to read the financials. I point everything out and Ted goes, we're fucking in covenant default. He gets it right away and he's like, mark, you need to fix this. So I spent the next three months grinding it out with the team and we were able to get through it. And then the beginning of the year came around. I said, look, that's not for me. I gotta go do something else. So I left in 08, the beginning, and the CEO decided to put a press release out, which was crazy to me. Like you're putting a press release out that I left, like you're celebrating me being gone. And I got two phone calls, like the first day, legitimately, two phone calls the first day. One was from Lorenzo Fertitta to talk about doing something with the ufc, which we eventually did. And the other was from a group called Angelo Gordon to see if I'd be interested in taking a look at the crunch business, which of course we did. So he kind of handed me two big opportunities on his way out of kicking me out of the company, so to speak.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I had no idea they reached out that quick to you because I know you had a, you had a five year non compete, right?

[Mark Mastrov]

No non compete.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh, you didn't have a non compete.

[Mark Mastrov]

That was one of the five things I had in my deal is I would have no non compete. If you want me to stay, you're throwing me out. I don't have a non compete. I, I'm not going to come back and do a non compete, right? So no non compete. Tesla. Yeah, no problem. No non compete. Oh, I think when the CEO at the time found out I was leaving with no non compete, he lost his mind. He's like, that, we can't have that. I'm like, well, I mean, you're throwing me out in a sense. You don't want me around, no problem. I helped you save your ass, but you want to be your own guy, get it? You want to be the man, so be the man. And I'm going to go take a time out, go do something else. I thought maybe it takes six months, chill a little bit. But the phone started ringing like crazy right after they put the press release out. I was like shocked. And so, you know, we ended up looking and putting two really nice new businesses together with the UFC that Adam Sedlak runs now and then Crunch, which we just sold to Leonard Green this summer for a monster number that Jim Rollies running. You know Jim left 24 right after me.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I didn't know that's how you guys. And I didn't know he's running that now.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, Jim's the CEO there. He's kicking ass, doing great work.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Ah, no.

[Mark Mastrov]

Oh, that's cool.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh, that's what. Take me back. Okay, the, the, the second thing you said, the VC charging at 2%. So does that mean that basically what he did was he funded the business and then he was charging interest on the money that he funded?

[Mark Mastrov]

Is that.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Explain that to me.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I don't know.

[Mark Mastrov]

Generally when you buy a business, you know, you invest capital, right? And then you put debt on the business and you don't take interest on your capital, right. Unless you do a preferred piece, which you don't want to allow them to do. So I don't let that happen. They're investing equity upfront, I'm investing equity with them. Parapursu. And then we'll have a debt facility from a bank. If we need a couple hundred million bucks, we'll pay interest on that. Got it. And then as you're sitting at the board, you say, I want a management fee for stewarding the company as the lead investor. And I've seen people gouge you for a lot of cash in that area. So when I got older and smarter and Ted Florshman shows up, I'm like, no fee, no fee, Mark, we don't charge anything. Awesome. That money goes back to the company to grow, right? Versus in their pocket for just showing up at a board meeting and making sure we're doing all the right things. And these guys said, no, we want a two and a half million dollar management fee. And I'm like, well, paperwork says you can't have one. Fuck you. Sue me.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Took it anyways.

[Mark Mastrov]

And you're like, okay, I guess they're gonna have a management fee.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

And that's two and a half million dollars of capital that you could be deploying. Out.

[Mark Mastrov]

David, they did so many crazy things, which at some point I'll write in a book if I ever get the chance, but they brought in a gal to be like, who was a CFO for them at one point to come into the board and get involved in the company. And after I left, they made her chairman. And two or three years later, it's all public record, she left the company and sued them for $25 million because she felt that that's what she deserved and that's what was promised by the Fortune little company. And they ended up writing her a $25 million check. Just to basically move on in life.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Wow.

[Mark Mastrov]

So a lot of crazy shit went down post my departure.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Yeah. When you were. You were. You're outside looking in and this stuff. Okay. Then you're. Then you're gone and you're looking back. Do you remember, like, the final straw that broke the camel's back for them? I remember being there and knowing when you laughed and feeling it.

[Mark Mastrov]

I'll give it to you. I mean, I've never talked about it, but you're asking it and I'm always right at you. So we had a big business in Asia. Steve Kleinfelter was running it. We were kicking ass in Asia. We were growing like weeds out there. But Ted didn't like Asia. He's like, I don't want to go. I don't like Asia so much. You know, it's nice. But I said, well, let me sell it. And they said, yeah, can you sell it? Yeah, I can sell it. So I got a buyer and I had a deal done for $160 million to buy 24 clubs. I mean, big number. Yeah. And that was going to be awesome for the company. And this is at the end of 07. And so come around into the middle of the month. We're supposed to close the 15th of December. The buyer comes to me, says, look, we want to bump it to January 1st to put it into next year. It's important for us to put the capital to work next year versus this year. Like, that shouldn't be a problem. So I go to this gal that he had brought in, she's on the board, and Ted, and say, look, they want to bump it two weeks ago. No. Fuck no. They're going to close it now or they can't have it. What are you talking about? They got to close it now. Why? It's two weeks. We want it now. We're not going to let them delay it. I was like, I didn't understand that. I was like, well, they're going to blow out of the deal. And they did. They said, no, we're not going to do it this year. We do next year or route, and they're out. So I leave the company in January. I'm like, this is fucking stupid. Right? I leave the company in January. Long story short, they took our CFO and put him out there to run the Asian business. Two years later, they're bankrupt. Oh, wow. Writing checks, $160 million check, going to

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

bankrupt in two years.

[Mark Mastrov]

Two years later, they basically walk away from the whole business and step out of Asia. And lost everything. And that's the first anybody's probably heard of this. Cause I've never really talked about it. So that, that was. I just broke my back when I was, like, busting my ass for them, getting them out of their covenant situation, trying to help out their CEO, figure out the business. Selling a business unit that would put a lot of cash on the balance sheet and cured everything they needed. And they just fucking fumbled it all. So I said, maybe it's time for me to go do something else, because you guys are not the smartest kid in the world.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I mean, is he that much of an idiot at this time? Or does this almost feel like it's a personal thing? Like just because you wanted it to get done, it's just like a big fu to you? I mean, what, what, what's going through your head at that minute?

[Mark Mastrov]

I mean, sometimes I look back and say I was really pissed off and I was going to go head to head, but then I say, no. I mean, I, I, I had four kids, I had my wife. And we're saying, hey, you know, I can retire. I got plenty of money in the bank. I don't need to work anymore, but I'm going to get bored. And then when Lorenzo called me first and I went and met with him and he said, look, I mean, I, I want to take UFC and soften it, because at that time, it was McCain saying, It's cock fighting. And, you know, Dana's fighting everybody. And he's like, I want to open gyms up and put kids in there and show about the discipline and respect that mixed martial arts brings to communities. So I sat with them, and literally in two hours, we shook hands on a 50, 50 partnership. That fast. I was just so, like, I was a breath of fresh air. Yeah. And Lorenzo, Frank, Dana, they're awesome. So we, we put a deal together and we started open gyms. And then I get the call on Crunch and, you know, hopped on a plane, went out and met with the Angelo Gordon guys. I could tell you a whole story there. I don't know if you want to spend time.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

No, yeah, go. I want to hear it. I've been just so, you know, the last two times we've been on here, I feel like I was like, man, I want to know more of the behind the scenes business stuff. And I feel like he's been so politically correct every time. Like, I want to hear all the other stuff.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, no, I get it. Give us the juice. So Angela Gordon says, look, come out, take a Look at our business. Yeah. And so I came out, I took Jim Rolley with me and Mike Feeney. You know, Mike does all the construction, layout, design. He's like, phenomenal. So I said, come with me, Jim. Come with me. So we fly out there, we spend a week looking at all their clubs, and they're losing 2 million a month. A month. And they have, like, 28 clubs. And so I come back and I sit down with the Angela Gordon team, and I'm like, my. My suggestion is to put this in a bankruptcy and move on. They're like, thank you very much. They kick us out. We go back home. A week later, I get a phone call, and Angela Gordon says, look, we heard what you said. We respect what you said. Would you be willing to put it in a bankruptcy with us and then pull it back out and rebuild it? I'm like, yeah, I'd be up for that. So they had a $40 million debt facility with Goldman Sachs, and they said, look, Mark, we've cut that down to 25 million if we pay him cash to put it into bankruptcy. And then you gotta fund in and out of bankruptcy, which will cost us, you know, five to eight million bucks. So I said, well, let me talk to Goldman, because I think 25 is not the right number. So. Well, they're not going to go any lower. I go, well, let me talk to him. So I got on the phone with Goldman and kind of walked him through my thinking and said, the most, I'm going to give you 15. And after a couple days of back and forth, they agreed to 15. Wow. So we bought the debt out for 15, we put the capital, and they take it into bankruptcy. In the meantime, Ben Midgley, who worked for us at 2, 4, I don't know if you guys remember him, but Ben ran corporate sales. Phenomenal guy. And he came to me at some point, said, look, Mark, I want to move back to Kitty Bunkport, Maine, where I'm from. I want to raise my family there. I got three young children and I want to stay here, but I just, you know, there was no remote work in those days. And so he's like, I want to move back. No problem, Ben. Love you. Let's stay in touch. He goes back. Well, he ends up working for Planet Fitness, and he spends a couple years, eventually becomes president of Planet Fitness. And so he gives me a call right before I'm looking at this crunch opportunity and says, look, I'm leaving Planet. It's crazy here. These guys are nuts. I can't handle it, they're riding motorcycles, they're feeding pizza to our people. And he's like, I gotta get out of here. What do you want to do? He goes, I don't know. I was thinking about maybe starting something similar. And I'm like, well, I'd be up for that. So I put him together with a kid that worked with me named Craig Pepindon, who was my EVP of sales and marketing phenomenal way back in the day. And the two of them started working on a concept like, hey, we're going to start a little franchise business. And then this Crunch thing falls in our lap. And I'm like, well, shit, why don't we talk to Craig and Ben about parking it inside this Crunch brand? And so they were like, yeah, let's do it. So merge that into the Crunch brand. Gave them a bunch of equity and then we started the franchise business. We took five of our best operators at 2, 4 who had left, who were all free agents and backed them in a couple locations each to prove the model out and then let them grow their area. So a guy like Curtis Harmon eventually opened like 40 clubs and made a ton of money and we started growing the franchise business and that's how that all came together. Long story short. But you know, Ben led that with Craig. And then Jim stepped in full time and said, look, I want to be the CEO and grow this thing and like, awesome, let's do it. So Jim stepped in there and, and started cranking and he's basically done a phenomenal job.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

When you look at Crunch and you, you see it's going under like that. What gave you the confidence that you could bankrupt it and come back? There had to been something. You're looking at the books or the model. Like, what do you, what do you see to take the, take that kind of risk?

[Mark Mastrov]

You guys know the business. It'll make you laugh. They had a kid running the company who came out of the hotel industry, okay? And his flashy was no salespeople, no marketing.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Very Carl Liebert, Home Depot style.

[Mark Mastrov]

The field of dreams. They will come, right? And I was walking through the place, there's like nobody there. And like, look, they'll see these beautiful clubs and they'll all join and just word of mouth will be amazing. I'm like, our industry doesn't quite work that way, unfortunately. It's nice, but it doesn't work that way. So I felt like if we turn the marketing machine on it, it's a very cool brand. I've always loved the name and the whole shtick behind it, you know, no judgments, et cetera. And if we put our systems in place, our technology, our sales systems will turn it. And we turned it very fast. Wow.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

One thing, that one thing, Mark, that I notice about you, that's often that you're often praised for, is the relationships that you build and how loyal people seem to be with you. You mentioned at least five or six names here that I know have been with you for decades. Talk about the value of that and how you're able to do that, because it's quite rare to see somebody where people are willing to follow them wherever they go. And that's one of the reasons why you're so successful, I would say. Talk about that a little bit.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah. So, I mean, I learned early on, I think my dad put it in my head, is that replace yourself with people who are better. If you want to be successful in business, you can't do it all yourself. So my first gym, like your guys First Gym, you're doing everything. I'm doing payroll, marketing, operations. I'm doing everything. And I start replacing myself as we find more and more success. And then I like to share. And so I know there are some guys that build their companies. They don't share, they don't give stock, they keep everything for themselves, and they basically run it like a dictatorship. I believe in sharing and giving out as much as I can to everybody and making them true partners. And all these folks have done very well by being a part of what we've built. And so my job is to mentor, to fund, to back and develop people and allow them to live to their dream. And so I know Jim's super happy with, you know, the wealth he's created through the crunch transaction and the wealth he will create in the next round. Therefore, forth from there, Adam and others have done extremely well at ufc. Chris Smith up in Canada is doing phenomenal work up there, growing a really cool brand called Fitness World. And I can go on and on and on, but I think when you find people with talent and you get behind them and. And let them grow and just kind of keep them in the guardrails, let them kind of find their way, you get rewarded. And so I'm happy to share the pie and happy to reward people so they can make as much money as they dream to make, and we'll both win together.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Talk about the guardrails, because it's not just about that. There's lots of companies that you'll make a lot of money. You'll get Shares and they don't have the same loyalty. Talk about, you just mentioned with guardrails and working with people and help and allowing them to, to do their thing.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I mean, I, I believe in paying people extremely well, more than they deserve, and let them earn as much as they want. So I don't have a problem overcompensating people. I don't have a problem giving them less equity and then I'm there for them. So my, I'm sure you've heard me say, my view is that I'm in the upside down pyramid, I'm at the bottom and I work for you. You don't work for me. I'm here for you. Whatever you need, you call, I pick up. You need an email, I give you an answer, you text me, I'm answering you. I mean, my wife kicks me all the time under the table or dinner, I'm on my phone. Give me five seconds. I gotta get back. You know, I want people moving and want to be able to be there for them. So I feel like I've got a lot of loyalty to my team and my people and I want to make them great and coach them up best I can.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it says a lot too, that, like your ability to distinguish that quick. Right. So when we were scaling this, I operate from a similar philosophy. Relationships, I think, is a big reason why we had a lot of success and tend to give a lot. And I know I've made some mistakes even early on where we're growing a side or a department and I'm like, give someone so much that they end up not following through and living up to that because I come from that place also. What is it for you? Like, what do you see in that person? You go like, this is someone who I can give a percentage or give ownership. Like, what do you see?

[Mark Mastrov]

I mean, they've come up the ranks and so they've worked their way up from sometimes the bottom. And Jim came in as an example. I talked to you a lot about Jim today, but Jim came in out of the Marines and his brother was working for us, and he came in as a sales counselor. And then he worked his way all the way up to President at 24 hour within probably a decade, where he ran half the company. And he's very, very talented. You could see it. What I used to do a lot is we have our conventions and I would have people that I thought were potentially leaders and I would cold call them to come up on the stage and speak and close out a session or Talk about what they were doing, and that's when you see the people shine. And so I remember I took Jim out of the audience one day. Hey, I need you to come up, close this thing out. And he, like, blew everybody's mind. Did a phenomenal job. He's like, okay, this guy's got leadership skills. Same thing I did with Adam or Brian, who's sitting behind us here. Who. Brian runs all the crunch gyms here in the Bay Area. He's a phenomenal operator. And so I'll just call him up. Hey, talk a little bit about yourself. Talk a little bit about this subject matter. That's a nice way to do it then. You know, the old test is get to meet their family, get to meet people who are friends around them, who are they as a person, you know, and then spend time with them, break breads, travel, you know, hang out. We used to do events all the time at 24 where, you know, we'd have 500 people show up in Hawaii for four days. And you'd get to know people, and you spend time and you'd break bread to eat together. And you start to say, I really like this person. And we get along, and I think we could work well together and then give them a shot, put them up into a higher position. If they perform, put them up again and make sure that they earn some serious money so they're super happy and their family's got the opportunity to, you know, enjoy life a little bit.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Mark, do you remember probably it was 1990. You don't remember? It was 1998. You came into a club that I was working and had me give you a tour. Do you remember that?

[Mark Mastrov]

We talked about it. Okay.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Mark Mastrov]

Okay.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

That was. That was. That was such an awesome moment.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

You're 19.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

At that time, I was 18 or 19 years old. And at the time, I was selling just crazy numbers, personal training and memberships, and. And you showed up and he said, I want you to give me. I want this kid to give me a tour.

[Mark Mastrov]

They told me you're a badass. I'm like, oh, I gotta meet this guy.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I gave you a tour. And I was too young to understand. Like, I'm the owner of the company's coming in to get it, you know, get a tour. But I remember that. I always remember that. So I think that's part of your success, is that you give people that feeling, which is why they tend to follow you whenever you make jumps. Now, looking back at 24, you left, they're different now. Talk about because at one point that was the model 24 hour. They were the ones that created the model for successful health club. They really were. Everybody else had to copy them at that point. But after you left, their image changed. It wasn't the same. Now, when you're looking at it now, what are you looking at? What are you going to try and change or switch or what are you going to do differently?

[Mark Mastrov]

Great question. After I left, they probably went through five leadership groups and probably three different investors, maybe four. And they kind of went on a path that lost their way. I think they were performing pretty well at one point and then struggling at another point and they changed leadership. And then a group came in and put a lot of debt on it and didn't equitize it as much. So they had a heavy load of debt. And then they started to struggle a little bit. And so they hit the pandemic and at that point just decided that, you know, we're going to have to file bankruptcy and reorganize. And then at that point the equity guys are gone, they lose their investment and the debt holders have the right to kind of come in and own the company. Which is the reason why we wanted to buy that debt at Crunch when we bought it from, you know, Goldman Sachs. Now we control the debt, we control the outcome of the bankruptcy. So we're in first position. So they kind of came through there and. And they finally landed on a. A guy by the name of Carl Sant to be the CEO, came out of Best Buy, was like a COO there, super sharp, and he righted the ship, reorganized it, leaned it out pretty heavily and didn't grow at all for the last four years because his hands have been tied behind his back by the guys that owned it. They didn't want to put any money into the business. They remodeled, they kept the clubs running well, but the company kind of lost its way a little bit. So as I step back in, I'm trying to take a look at where they sit right now and what I think we can do to kind of bring it back to where it was. Because we were on fire and doing everything right and had an amazing opportunity and it kind of got fumbled by the leadership groups that came in behind. And it's hard for a guy like even Carl, who's the CEO, and all of a sudden I show up, right? The founder is back, you know, and he's an old fart now, but what the hell, what are we going to do? Is he still there? Oh, Carl, this is a new Carl.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh, oh, okay.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah. Liebert's gone, of course, but Sam is running it and, you know, he's done a great job, I think. Look, let's. Let's learn. Let's see what you think. What do you see? And I've been pointing a lot of stuff out that. Look, this is where I think we need to go. And if you want, bring it to the team and if they like it, let's do it. And we're going to bring back nutrition because they kind of walked away from nutrition. We're going to bring back personal training because they kind of walked away from personal training. We're going to change the pricing structure, make it simpler and easier. We're not going to go down to 999HVLP stuff. That's not where we're going to be. These boxes they have are 40, 50, 60,000 square feet with pools and courts. They're beautiful. We're going to bring in recovery and put a lot of capital work. So we'll remodel about 60 clubs this year, give or take. We'll try and open six or eight. We'll try and buy eight or 10 because we got a lot of cash on the balance sheet to go kick some ass. But it's going to be a year or two to kind of resurrect and find out what the new future is for the company. And I'm excited to see what the team there decides to do. There's a lot of really talented people.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Do you think we're in a kind of changing landscape? It felt like five, eight years ago. You know, you saw the F45s, the orange series kind of explode. I kind of feel like they've peaked and they're kind of tipping back off. You seem, it seems like this spa recovery, bigger kind of footprint, even places where you can do work. And it seems like it's going that direction. Like, what's your thought when you look at the entire landscape of the direction of the space? And is there any plans of melding some of those ideas in with the 24?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, it's really interesting because if you look at the way I look at the business. So I kind of. If you remember, every five years I try and take a project near my home and build what I call as the club of the future. I'll make some crazy brand name and I'll just go and dabble with it and see. So I live in Vegas now, so I took some square footage there and I'm building what I think is the Club of the future. And so what's inside that club? Right. And so there's definitely Medispa. So we can start to do body scans, we can start to do glp, we can do peptides NAD and get into IV therapy and really start to help people understand how to enhance their workout, enhance their recovery, enhance their bodies. Yeah. So we want to get into that. We're going to equip it with the latest and greatest, craziest stuff out there. You see a lot of these clubs now that are very focused on the free weight side of the house. Going after the Gen Z market. I'd say 40% of people are joining gyms right now from the Gen Z. They're on fire. They love working out, they love training,

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

they love strength training.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah. So that young crowd is really cool to watch. And then we've moved away from what I call group showers to private showers. So what I've started doing in the clubs, even the one that's here in the bay up the street here that Brian built, you know, we've got 10 private showers in there, well appointed, beautiful, full service. You go in, use it yourself, come out, we clean in behind you and roll it to the next person. And we're moving towards that to make the clubs more unisex oriented, to eliminate some of those issues that come around with the they them stuff but at the same time make it a little bit more higher end, high scale. And then recovery starts to get bigger. There's beginning, intermediate, advanced recovery, right? Yeah. So you can spend 100 grand or 500 grand depending on what you want to put inside your recovery room. If you want to do hyperbaric chambers, which is what we're going to start to do, you know, we're starting to hit the big stuff and people are going to go crazy for some of the treatments they've never tried that will present to them as a first time opportunity.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I think that the opportunity, the opportunity to combine this exploding medical intervention that is going to continue to explode the GLP1s, the new generations, the Peptides. I mean this is huge. We've never seen anything like this when it comes to medical interventions to combine that with which we believe this to be necessary, to combine it with a good trainer, a good coach, strength training diet so you don't lose the muscle. That has to be the future. And I think that's such a great opportunity because I could see people using, we talk about this on the show all the time, using GLP1s without strength training, without that kind of Coach. It's not the best solution, but in combination, it's great. Which leads us to personal training. You said you're bringing that back. Why did gyms generally move away from that, and why was that a mistake?

[Mark Mastrov]

So, I mean, the pandemic came, and everybody had to work from home. And the trainers started training people in their garages or in the parks or at their home of their client, and they built a little business up. And so a lot of them didn't come back to the fitness industry. They stayed out on their own independently. And then these little gyms would show up that you could rent space from and bring in your clients. And so they started using those, making a little bit more money, and the gym struggled to replace people. As you know, a lot of people didn't want to work. After the 2021 period, it's like, I don't need to work anymore. Sending me money. I'm good. So. So I think the flip side was that the training core kind of decreased a little bit. There's still a lot of success in places. There's still gyms doing big numbers, but they had to rebuild that culture. And at 2 4, they kind of fell in that trap where they, you know, I went into a gym. Blow your mind. I went into a gym on the east coast that's doing 3,500 workouts a day. I mean, it's like, incredible, right? I tour the whole facility. Go. How's your personal training appointment? Oh, it's good. How is it? We did 13,000 last month. Oh, my God. I'm like, well, how many trainers do you have? We just have one.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I'm like, what, 3,500 workouts?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah. I mean, you guys should be doing 200 grand a month here. So they're like, okay, we're gonna start hiring. Yeah, you need to hire and get back at it. But the opportunities there. And to me, it's about helping the members achieve their goals. As you guys know, personal training is super important because everybody trains, but they don't watch their nutrition. They don't know how to lift properly. They aren't exercising properly. They're getting a lot functional in. And so the trainer plays this massive role in helping people get on the right path. Whether they want to stay with that trainer for a year or a month, a day, whatever. It's a big, big benefit. And so that's what we need to focus back on at 2 4, for sure, is to rebuild that personal training.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

100% agree with that.

[Mark Mastrov]

We.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

So what moved us in that direction. So we're now on, like 18 months of that off air. We'll talk numbers in the business and what we've done and some of the ideas that we have. Well, it seems as there's going to be this massive divide of people that go, the AI robot, no human connection, and then there's going to be another side that's going to be thirsty for that human connection. And we're doubling down on that. We really believe that. That, I mean, we were meant to. To be with each other. And. And there's so much that happens when you're actually with another human being that AI just can't replace. And I know there's going to be a lot of people that will adopt it. I know it'll be low cost, but there's going to be a ton of people, I think, that are going to be thirsty for connection, and I think it's going to make a huge boom. I think it's. Do you think that. Do you think that's true?

[Mark Mastrov]

100%. I think that AI is going to play its role, but at the end of the day, I think we're in a great space because we want community, we want experience, we want to touch and feel, and we don't want to sit at home all day. And so I think ultimately, the trainer is a great opportunity for people in career change. And the money that, you know, trainers make is ridiculous. Yeah, there's folks making 150, 200 grand training in the gym, Right. And they're, like, loving it with full benefits. You know, the club feeds them new prospects every day that come in and enroll. I mean, Adam Sedlak is doing at UFC Gym 2 for 22. You get two personal training sessions for 22 bucks as you join.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Wow.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

And they convert that well to.

[Mark Mastrov]

They convert well. But that gives people a chance to see what training's about, how it can enhance them. And a lot of people are like, shit, I want more of this. And then they go and buy training. But his philosophy is that everybody gets touched if they want to be. If they don't want it, no problem. But that's such a ridiculous price. We lose money on that. We don't make money. We pay the trainer more than that. But it's a way to let people know that personal training is super important and we got your back.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Do you think one of the biggest mistakes that gyms can make is forget that it's a people business and think it's more of a equipment and maybe analytics? And, you know, we got the nicest looking whatever, versus like it's about, it's really about the people, isn't it?

[Mark Mastrov]

It always is. It's, I call it the guru in the box. It's who the leader is. Right. Who are you following? And if you have like, you're 18, 19 years old, the whole gym's following you. Yeah, you're the gm, you're in charge, they love you, you got charisma. They're like, oh my God, I'll follow this guy. The end of the earth. So you got to have that person in the location that kind of leads the charge and then builds a team around them. That's awesome. And so from that standpoint, it's always about people. Everything in life is generally about people. But you know, technology is moving fast, AI is moving fast. Holograms are starting to show up. We're going to have all this crazy shit, you know, we'll see what everybody does. Maybe a robot's going to be teaching me how to work out, I don't know. But I do think at the end of the day when you come into the gym, the change that's really interesting is that the gym is packed all day long because nobody's working. People have jobs now from home and they can work from 5 to 8 and go work out from 8 to 10, come back and finish up at home.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Are busy hours changing? Is that changing a lot?

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh, interesting.

[Mark Mastrov]

But I was in Hawaii and I went into a 24 hour fitness gym at one o' clock in the afternoon and there was over 550 people in it. Wow. I was like blown away. I'm like, does anybody working, they just laugh. No, I mean, this club's busy all day. It's like, so the gym business is 24 hours a day now. It's not like, you know, morning, noon and night.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah, it used to be like that.

[Mark Mastrov]

All day long people are in there. Different shifts of types of people come in throughout the day, which is really awesome for our industry and awesome for people to have that flexibility to come in and train in hours that normally were quiet, that are now a little bit busier than ever before.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Yeah, Gen Z, you'd mentioned them a bit and I had read some statistic about the drop in alcohol sales and they're just not interested in hanging out like that and looking for healthier options. Is that like a demographic you're really trying to kind of include, like hangout wise? I know there's some gyms that actually are trying to create kind of like a lounge experience. For them, so they can extend their workouts to.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I've got this. I've got this wacky theory where you. The baby boomers call it the 60 to 80 crowd, you know, got into fitness. You know, in the 70s and 80s, they started exercising and this part of their life. And then their children underneath them kind of grew up with them at their gyms or country clubs, and they exercised as well, like, oh, this is pretty normal. Now the baby booms are focused on longevity. I want to live forever. I'm going to take my peptides, my Jill P1s. I'm going to exercise. I'm going to lift weights. I'm going to do all this stuff you see in social media. And then their children are seeing it. Now the grandkids, which are. I call the Gen Z folks, right, are looking up at my mom and dad work out. My grandma and grandpa work out. I work out. I played sports. I want to exercise. Hey, what's this peptide thing? What's the social media thing? And so we're starting to see that people are recognizing that, you know, to live longer and live healthier, you got to do some strength training, right? And if you want to do it in the park, God bless you. But if you want to come to gym, we'll take care of you. But I think that there's a change in the scenery right now where everybody has recognized that, you know, gyms and fitness is the third place. It's not Starbucks. It's homework and gym. And that's where community is. And now they're getting into running events and. And Pilates is blown out like crazy, and everybody's into exercise. It's kind of cool.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

It is really cool.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

It is that we saw a huge switch where women weren't strength training. Now they are now. You're seeing a lot of kids working out. So is this. Is fitness having its, like, biggest moment?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I think it is. I think that's well said. I think it's having its moment right now. And, you know, and a lot of people, like, I did some interviews with some of the national media, and their whole thing is, why would you come back to 24 Fitness? Like, you know, business is kind of gone now. What are you talking about? Fitness is on fire. You're missing it. Planet Fitness has 2,000 locations. Crunch is 600 and opening 100 this year, 24 Hours got a big business, LA. Fitness got a big business. Eos is killing it Rich. And those guys are awesome over at Eos. They're doing great work Everybody's on fire. What am I missing? You just don't know.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Well, I mean that you highlighted that when you talked about the gym. You said it was New Yorker, East coast, said 3, 500 workouts and only 15 grand in personal training.

[Mark Mastrov]

13 grand and one trainer.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

One trainer.

[Mark Mastrov]

I'm like, I'm coming here.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I mean we were doing 100, I want this guy doing 100 grand in personal training a month out of Santa Teresa when we were getting 1500-1700 workouts.

[Mark Mastrov]

Crazy, right?

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

So I mean you're talking about almost should be doing double that. Yeah, that's, I mean, so what a huge miss.

[Mark Mastrov]

It's just, it's just a big opportunity for people as they look at career change or coming back to the industry. You know, I'm seeing, I've got a gym that I'm working with because I, what I do is I, I tour around all the two floors, I pick a couple gyms in each market that they're going to report into me every day and I kind of manage them so I get a feel for what's going on, how hard they're working, et cetera. But I had a gym I went to and I said, look, what'd you do last month? They go, we did like 38. I go, that's pretty good. What's your all time record? They go 116. Back in the day they looked it up. I said, can we do 116 this month? They go, it's like the 12th of the month ago. There's no way. I said, well, can we give it a shot? They did 108. I mean just like, just because every day I'm like, so do service, work the desk, work the floor, talk to members and you start working. They go 108. And this month they're on past on pace to hit 120. It's not that hard.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I mean I, I was literally going to ask you that, I was literally going to ask you that question. How big of a difference the, the just the right team can make in the same club. I mean you could switch out the team or change the attitude. Dramatically different in revenue and experience for the members. Yeah, you know, totally different. Do you see? I, I, I've been reading articles on the gym industry and how they're saying that the middle type of gym is disappearing and it's becoming either the expensive kind of country club experience and the super low inexpensive, you know, entry type gyms. Is that, do you see that happening? Do you see there any room for the middle or.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I mean that's, that's, that's what the word has been in the marketing and the media for the last couple of years is that the middle is gone. Like the 25 Fitness at 40 bucks and LA Fitness at 40 bucks is gone. And then HVLP is really 10 bucks. But the reality is that, that $10 is the lost leader. When they come in the door, they're buying the next tier up, they want recovery, they want all club access, they want classes. So they're stepping up to 25 to $35. So they're approaching the middle. And then the other thing is the gym of today is like 75 bucks, right? So you see these guys are coming out with these huge freeway gyms with lots of cool lighting and they're charging $75. You're getting it all day long, right? So the middle is still there. You just have to decide, you know, how you want to market to it.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I wonder if it's into your point of like leadership and people is did all the great people leave to the like either if you were an old 24 hour guy that was a great GM or RVP or whatever, did you end up going and starting your own own theory of fitness or did you go and you know, get over one of the spas because there was more money there and everybody just left. That middle is that could be that. I mean that's what it sounds like

[Mark Mastrov]

is, I mean a lot of talent has left the industry during the pandemic and after. And some of the brands that, you know, went through difficult times. Gold Gyms filed BK 24 hour, BK New York Sports filed BK. Equinox got hit really hard. LA Fitness got hit really hard. So you know, a lot of those guys struggle and people left because they had a cut back on payroll and couldn't take care of them. So they spun out into other organizations. So groups like eos, which Rich leads has picked up a lot of people on waivers. So they've got a lot of x24x crunch ex lifetime people that have been able to help them grow their business. And so I think the talent still out there is just like you said, spread out a little bit and then a lot have gone out and opened up their own gym concepts and done really well.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Which is awesome to see is the footprint of gyms. You mentioned free weights a few times. So I noticed this. So I work out in a couple commercial gyms here and there and I noticed that the footprints seem to be moving more towards strength training. And away from, you know, back in the day, it was a big cardio. Now it looks like it's more strength training. Is that. Do you see that as continuing to move in that direction?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I think if you look at the Gen Z, the young audience is coming in. Cardio has shrunk. Right. Selectorize is still nice, but they really want to work out on unique equipment. So I don't know if you've seen scale core. No. With skel core, phenomenal. Look them up, man. They're awesome. Out of Florida, run by a father and his sons. His wife out of South Africa.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Mark Mastrov]

Mark runs it, this guy, Mark Ackerman. He.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

And this is strength training.

[Mark Mastrov]

It's strength training. Just. I mean, they got plates, they got everything. They got dumbbells that have Geigers on them. So when you set them down, it brings it back. So the. The amount like 20 pounds is center versus a lot of people put them upside down. Like, my wife hates that. Like, I want my dumbbells.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Oh, I see. So the way it always says the

[Mark Mastrov]

name, a little spinning Geiger in the middle, so you always see the number.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh, that's cool.

[Mark Mastrov]

They do all kinds of aesthetics, for sure. Yeah. They got weight place that you can have polka dots on or do whatever the hell you want. And then they bend their steel really innovatively and very creatively. So they're doing really phenomenal work. And then of course, you got Panetta and Jim 80. Then you got all the basics and the regular lines, Matrix and Life fitness and core, you know, etc. But right now, kids are coming in saying, I want to. I want to train on eight or 10 different pieces for my pecs. You know, I want to work on different. I want the same damn piece my dad was using. I want something cool. Yeah. And so you got to have a big ass, you know, call it powerlifting area. And racks. Gotta have 10 racks in a club. And what's really cool is you put these power racks in. It's women working out.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I mean, I was just gonna say.

[Mark Mastrov]

It's nuts.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I was just gonna say, when you're put these gyms are putting them together. They're now looking at. Well, now women is 50% of the people using this. So you're going to see more hip thrust. You're going to see more. And they love the barbell stuff, is what I'm saying, which is really, really cool.

[Mark Mastrov]

Lifting, they're cleaning and jerking. They're doing all kinds of shit. You're like, jesus Christ, this is crazy. But that's you know, kids today get after it. They really are training hard. And a lot of them came through sports programs, right? More kids are participating in sports. They're training hard through high school and college. They're coming out and they're finding the gym and they're pounding it and it's, it's fun to watch.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

One thing that I'm seeing just in, in our space in new media because, you know, obviously this is what we work in and you start to see trends kind of start in new media and because selectorized strength training equipment has been around for a while, strength training's been relatively popular for a while. You're starting to see people look for gyms with equipment that you don't see so often anymore. Like there's that big hammer strength dinosaur leg press machine. I forgot what it was called, but like there were only 600 made because it took so much. Now you got people looking for them. Like, I want to use this. This is like the best leg press ever. Or the, or the Nautilus pullover machine, which you just don't find it with the chain. It doesn't even have the belt. It's got the dangerous chain. You can lose your finger. Like people are now like, I want to see this guy. I can see value in bringing back some of these, you know, kind of vintage looking equipment.

[Mark Mastrov]

You're 100% right. They want something nobody else has, right. They wanted something unique. They want to post it on social media. They want to show how vascular they've become or how big their quads have gotten or whatever it is. They do a little bit of everything. It's fun to watch. But you know, the cool thing is, is that people are recognizing that strength training is really important towards life and longevity.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah, right.

[Mark Mastrov]

The GLP1 prescription, more often than not by doctors, you need to do some, you have to go join a gym or do some resistance training at home because you're going to deplete your fat and your muscle mass could eventually get hammered as well once you burn through your fat. And so you see that happen all the time. And then like you said before, you know, peptides, I've been in rooms now, like, who's doing peptides? Like two people raise their hand. Now starting to get to be 8 to 10, and I assume it's going to be 10 out of 10, you know, so it's really interesting to watch what the young audience is pushing and what they're seeing as far as results.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I just ran into Antoinette and she told me, she said oh, you see Mark, you have to ask him, what's the future of Group X? She's like, he's always hated Group X. Is he gonna eliminate it? Is it gonna go out? He's like, what's your, what's your take on that?

[Mark Mastrov]

Well, first he's wrong. I love Group X. I never hated it. We had so many classes, but, you know, a lot of people cup Group X because when you came out of the pandemic, you know, breathing in a room with a lot of people, I can't do that. So you couldn't go to Orange Theory. You couldn't go to Soul Cycle. You couldn't even do F45. It's like, no, no, that's bad. Right? But then people started recognizing. Wait a minute, we all got Head Fake there.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Mark Mastrov]

It had nothing to do with spitting in the air and all that. So group fitness started making a comeback. And so certain classes are packed, you know, body pumps packed, because they want to press weight in fitness. Zumba has never gone away. So throw Zumba class in any hour you want. We're going to start doing Zumba at 2 in the morning. It'll be packed. Everybody will show up. It won't change. Shaking it and then pull. Pilates has gone nuts. Right? Pilates. If you don't have Pilates, it's like you're. You're not in tune with the industry. So I think Group X will continue to grow and make a comeback. And it feels like a lot of successful gyms you walk into, you have to have a decent number of women in there working out. And Group X pulls a lot of women in still. Yeah, yeah. And just to point out to her that she's wrong, when, when we started Crunch, right. Planet was our competitor, they had no Group X. We said, we're going to put Group X in Crunch.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Mark Mastrov]

And so Crunch, that's the differentiator Crunch has. It's got 2 and 3,000 square foot.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

And they got unique stuff, too. They were the first ones to do, like, the hanging from the straps and do all kinds of cool stuff.

[Mark Mastrov]

I remember going, they've been very innovative. You know, we had Donna Cyrus, who was at Crunch when we acquired it, was one of the big leaders in crazy stuff like, you know, stiletto, you know, workouts and, and other things that she kind of created that we, we took and put into our brand.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

When you, when you took over ufc, how long until you guys were really cranking? Like, how long did it take? What was that? What was the tipping Point, probably five

[Mark Mastrov]

years, because we, we started a franchise. And what you don't realize is we're in like 42 countries, like in crazy places, really. All over the world. Adam flies all over. We're in the Middle East. We're growing like crazy in India. Wow. We just opened a couple more in China. We're in every country. And it's growing from that standpoint because the brand is such a, you know, international brand. Love it.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Mark Mastrov]

And so you get a lot of people there. So we've almost focused less domestically and more globally, which is kind of a

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

reverse of your typical strategy. I mean, you're the one who came out with like the cluster idea, right, of like, you start with a gym here, then you go 15 miles of the road and go out versus going the. Going away. Is that because the UFC brand, is that why? Because UFC is so big. That's why you can get away and do that.

[Mark Mastrov]

That. And it's a different kind of audience. It's a little bit bigger catchment area because of the mixed martial arts and the BJJ and the boxing. You bring people in, great instructors, and a lot of people come into that. And then we do kids programs, which is what's really cool. So call it, you know, four or five years old to 12 or 13, you can go take classes like your normal martial arts classes. But these are mixed martial arts classes. You can learn to do bjj, Muay Thai, kickboxing, whatever you want. Want. But the nice thing is you can train with mom and dad. Yeah, they can all come into class together. Where in a regular traditional gym we would never let a five year old go into. That's right. Right, right. So the UFC has a different audience in a bigger catchment area, and they do a phenomenal work in the, in the mixed martial arts communities.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Does the Paramount deal affect you? The Paramount with ufc? I mean, I'm curious to, like.

[Mark Mastrov]

We think it helps, of course. Right. Because now you have a much bigger audience and catchment because anybody that subscribes to Paramount plus for 12 and a half bucks a month is able to watch a UFC fight where before pay per view was 100, $250. Right. So in talking to Dana and everybody, we think it's definitely going to be super helpful.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Yeah. That's why I was wondering if you would start doing, like, more commercial. My wife and I were just talking about the fights this weekend, and she's like, I don't understand why. I don't feel like they don't. UFC doesn't promote the fights too much. I said, well, that's hunt. That's because they went to Paramount and they just gained all that audience. They don't need to do that to promote for anymore.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Speaking of promoting and marketing, because they, the. The space seems to. The marketing in general seems to be changing. You know, social media got big. Now AI is making ads. I feel like people want something authentic. How is marketing, has it changed since you've been doing this where you're. You're really trying to get people in through, like, what does it look like now?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, it's all about social media and the algorithms through the digital channel, right? So you could be hot as hell on Facebook one week and nothing the next. You got to kind of crack the code. Code. The genius behind that sitting behind me, Brian Calgari, he's like, phenomenal. If you want to talk marketing, he could talk you for hours. But reality is less direct mail, less tv, less radio, a lot of social and then a lot of in store, a lot of referral stuff. So we can get things in front of our members to reward them for recommending our facility to their friends or family. And that's where you kind of hit the ground. And then just some outreach. You got to have some hustle. So as you know, you got to get out in the community and create awareness because five blocks away, somebody may never know you have a gym there because they don't drive that way. So a lot of us just hand to hand too, but digital is probably the most important, and you got to come to the social channels. You might find that Snapchat's crushing it this week for some reason, right? Then you slide over and. And you know, YouTube is crazy. So you just have to kind of see what the ebb and flow is.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Any thoughts of collaborating similar to what you did back in the days with like a Magic Johnson gym? Like, what's to stop you from collaborating with one of the largest health and fitness podcasts or one of the largest. Or one of the largest.

[Mark Mastrov]

We could do it. Let's do it.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I mean, no, seriously, like, like, I mean, I have no idea how successful that strategy was back in the days where you partner with a big name in. In sports like that and their names on it, and it's a Collab. But the 24 Hour Fitness is gym, but it's, you know, a Magic Johnson or whatever. I mean, it seems like today's day and age celebrities are less the movie stars and the athletes and more YouTube stars. Podcasts and like social media stars. What's to stop you from doing something like that?

[Mark Mastrov]

Nothing. I mean, it's definitely on the list. I mean, I didn't come into 24 with the new team saying, hey, let's get back to it. They told me we were getting a lot of phone calls from people who want to know if we could do something with you. And so it's something for us to think about. I know that Mark Wahlberg as an example is doing a cross promotion with eos. He's going to open up a couple of municipal gyms with them, which I'm excited to see and happy for Mark, too. Great guy. I think we'll probably do some things in time and be open minded to what may be presented to us. We'll see what comes.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

How did his run with F45 do? Because I know he did some of the F45 too. Do you know if that was very significant, successful or not?

[Mark Mastrov]

I think that they, they were on fire for a bit of time and then they went public and they got in some trouble because their counting ended up not being what was reported and their stock got pounded and so they're been delisted. And I know Mark's no longer involved at all with that, and I think they're trying to come out of kind of a delisting to kind of resurrect the brand. But I haven't heard who's going to get it, who's going to do it, how getting.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Going back to 24, I mean, obviously you love what you do because you're always doing it. You do a great job. But going back to 24, is there like a different fire where you're like, oh, yeah, this is my kid. Let's make this happen.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, it's kind of like the bones are there. So you get back and you meet people like, how long you been here? I've been here 25 years. I've been here 18 years. We were in El Cerrito this morning and the kid there says, I've been here 16 years Tuesday. I'm like, damn, that's awesome. So there's a lot of people that have been loyal and have stuck around a long time, which is really cool. The clubs are very familiar to me. I walk in and the same build out. Because back in the day when we were building, Mike Feeney and I would sit and I said, look, I want to build these clubs bulletproof, where they can last the test of time, because I don't want to come back and have to spend money again. And so I'm walking in these clubs and there stood the test of time. The locker rooms look great. The flooring is maintained. We put metal on the walls, if you remember.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I remember that.

[Mark Mastrov]

All that sheet metal still there. I'm like, the desk looks good. I go, holy shit, this thing worked. It sure looks tired. We need to remodel. And so we're in the middle. And I was able to get Mike Feeney to come back, and so he's come back to help again. And David Roth has led the initiatives down there at 24 right now. So the two of them are all over these remodels and new locations. So it'll be a lot of fun to spend a lot of money and see how the clubs react to all that we do.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

How about the careers in fitness? You know, going into fitness and making it your career. I mean, some of my best memories are working in the gyms. But even today, if you talk, I don't. I don't know if a lot of people even realize, like, I can have a career in the gym industry. Like, talk to that a little bit and maybe the opportunities for people.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, it's great. I mean, great question. So, you know, like, you. I love being in the gym, so, I mean, that's kind of like. I don't like being in the office. So I'm a field person. I'm always out talking to everybody, hanging out, trying to get things done. Done. If I walk in a club, what do you need? I'll make sure you get taken care of. But I love being in the field, and I think that the industry is so rewarding because you're kind of like part of the community. You meet all your neighbors, everybody that works nearby, all the families. You get to know everybody. And then it can earn a lot of a really, really good income, you know, depending on what position you're in, whether you get into personal training or sales or management, Your upper mobility to start making north of six figures, mid six figures is pretty, pretty cool. And so it's a great business. It's a people business. I know that a lot of times when you talk to people now, they say kids don't have people skills anymore. They can't look in the eye. They. They're down on the phone. They aren't doing the things they do. This is a business that breaks you away from all that. So, like, if you met my kids, all my kids are looking in the eye. They can talk to you, they can hang out with you. You'll spend time with them and there's a lot of their friends are the same. So I think this industry is going to start to attract a lot of these younger kids and they're going to find their home and they're going to find success and they're going to spin out and open their own companies or they're going to ride along with guys like us to teach them the way and have a shit ton of fun.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

We were just talking about that because it's such a unique environment. Unless you've worked in a gym, it's really hard to kind of understand, like, you got people showing up voluntarily to better themselves. So they kind of already in this mental state of like, I'm gonna. I'm in this growth mindset. Then. People that work in gyms tend to love fitness. They tend to have better energy. You got music in the background. I can't think of a more fun kind of positive. You know, there's always, you know, places that maybe not so great, but generally speaking, it's one of the best. My niece just. I just got her over at UFC gym by Oak Ridge over there. Dawn's running that club. And, you know, me and Dong go way back. And she just got a job at the front desk and she's only 18. And I'm telling him, like, this is the best environment for you to just be in. It's such a great. But a lot of people don't realize that. They just have no idea. It's a great place to work.

[Mark Mastrov]

Well, I mean, we're doing something positive. It's healthy, right? And so it's not a negative business where a lot of people are in trying to sell something that they really don't need. But I'll tell you a story while we're here just to give you an idea what the gym business can be like on a day. So when I was in my very first gym back in the day, receptionist buzzed my office because you used to buzz the office and pick up the phone. So I pick up the phone, she goes, there's a guy up here, wants to see you. I'm like, okay, send him back. So the door opens up and in walks this guy, and it's Sonny Barger. Sonny Barger is the head of the Hell's Angels. He's got two big boys with him. And at that time he'd come out, he had to use the microphone on your throat to talk. So he comes into my office, sits down, he goes, I've been wanting to talk. I don't want to imitate his voice, but he's like, I've been watching you. You. I like what you're doing here. I want to send my people in here to train. I want a great rate. I'm like, oh, yes, sir, what do you want? So we, we cut a deal. I think it was 300 bucks a year. And he says, they're going to bring cash and you're going to take care of them. I said, yes, sir. And so out the door he goes, I started getting six to eight people a day. 300 bucks. I'm here to see Mark. Sonny sent me in and, you know, could be bikers, could be girls, could be everybody. And that went on for a decade, right? Every manager in behind me, like Vinnie Farrell, called me up. Sonny Barger's in the gym. No way. Take care of them. 300 bucks. That's it. And. And so I built this relationship with him where he would come in maybe every six months and check in. How's it going? How's your business? You making money? Doing well? And it was like, crazy. So I have thousands of stories like that where you meet some of the most amazing people. When you're sitting in your gym because everybody touches you at some point in

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

the community, you're the perfect person to ask this Mark, what makes a good general manager? You're running a club. What are the characteristics of somebody's going to run a successful club?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I mean, the great GMs have charisma, right? People want to follow them and they have attention to detail and they care, right? They want their club to be clean. They want to be well maintained. They care about their people. You know, they got their back, they want to support them. And then they're driven, right? Generally, they're really driven. They want to make a good living and they want to grow and they want to excel. Obviously, all the other things that you normally point to, that they're bright and intuitive, you know, they've got street smarts and all that stuff. But generally you can teach a lot of things to people. But at the end of the day, I was to say that charisma plays a pretty big role because the person who leads the environment is one. You want to follow

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

an observation that I've had just because I've been now the industry now over 20 something years, and some of the best salespeople I've ever met in my entire life started selling gym memberships. And now these people went on to sell homes or cars or get into loans or entrepreneurs and whatever field they go into, they're the best at what they do, but they learned how to sell with gym memberships. Now, my theory is that because I see this all the time, I'm like, okay, here's probably. This is probably why. It's a fast sales cycle. So you're practicing constantly, and you're selling an idea. You're not selling some product. So somebody's got to walk out with this idea. So you got to get good and you got to practice a lot. That's my theory. What do you think?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I tell everybody that when they used to come to Workforce. I used to always say, look, you know, one thing we're going to teach you to do is how to sell, because you sell yourself every day in some way, and we're going to teach you how to sell yourself and be yourself. And that was always the way that we did the sales training. Reality is, is that as we could talk forever, I run into so many people all over the place that had once touched us and worked for us. There's a GM for an NFL team that I was having a meeting with, and when I left the room, he says, by the way, I want to thank you. I'm like, oh, you're welcome. No, I want to thank you because I put myself through college working for you as a personal trainer, and then I got a job as an intern here, and now I'm the GM running this NFL team. That's right. So you get stuff like that. But selling is super important, I think, for life. And it's a skill you need to learn. And if you're great at it, you always follow the best salespeople. Right. They're just so charismatic, and they're the person that seems to have a Pied Piper ability to get people to go wherever they go.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

It'd be such a cool exercise. We do this sometimes. We reminisce of all the friends that we built working at 24 underneath you. And I mean, just between the three of us, we could probably count 20 people that are all like multi millionaires that have gone killers. It's just, it would be so such a fun exercise to see how many of those people that are attached to you. You know, you're like the Kevin Bacon of fitness, you know, I appreciate that.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah,

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

No, it really, it feels like that. You know, I was telling a story to the, the.

[Mark Mastrov]

The staff.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

So we're, we're. We're 11 years we've been doing this now, and 10 years in a row, we've been able to Grow and out compete the prior year, every single year. Last year was the first difficult year we had and we're looking at numbers from the prior year and I'm with the, all the department heads and talking to them and you know, it's like, oh, this is going to be such a tough month. And I, I shared the story of what you did for the Hawaii month. You took a time of the year that was the worst time and flipped it on its head into being, you know, for I don't know how many decades, it continued to be the biggest. When you think of and at least the crunch UFC in 24. What are some of the most proudest like business strategies that you've implemented? When you look back that like that and that has to I would think would be one of them that like that's so impressive to me.

[Mark Mastrov]

No, I think, I think ancillary like bringing in retail personal training supplements. I mean Neil Spruce and, and he did Apex, so he's phenomenal. So you get Neil attached to you. He helps the trainers become educated on how to help people understand how to fuel their body when they exercise, et cetera. It's really important. So I think the ancillary was really important. And then I think attention to detail inside the facility, right? From all components, the way you equip it, the way you design it. You know, Mike Feeney played a huge role in all that. He did a phenomenal job for us. And we'd sit there for hours in meetings just to figure out that piece. And then the amenities you wanted. Do you want to pour? Do you want a basketball court? Do you want racquetball? Do you want squash? Do you want a big group X room? How do you design your facility so it meets the community that you serve and how big do you need to be? And all the nuances that come in. I mean, how big is your damn parking lot? Because the parking lot often controlled the success of your business. If you had a hundred car parks, you were not going to be a high volume club. But if you had 400, you could be a very high volume club and do 2,500 to 3,000 workouts a day.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

When did you guys figure out that people would rather watch people working out than people TV while doing cardio? Cuz that's, that's like a big deal.

[Mark Mastrov]

No, you're right.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

That's like when did you guys figure that? How'd you piece that? Because you're in the gym all the time, you're like, wait a minute. People like to Watch.

[Mark Mastrov]

Well, I mean, you're in the gym, you kind of figure it out. But we did this study, and the most successful clubs that we had had mezzanines.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh.

[Mark Mastrov]

And I was like, holy. So we started building all our clubs with mezzanines. And then everybody's like, yeah, I love sitting up. Everybody work out. And I got TVs, and that was the thing. And so even today, I'm walking in a lot of clubs, telling guys, you know why we built that mezzanine? No, why'd you do that? I walk them through. Because we did this focus group survey and study that our best successful clubs had mezzanines. And so that's how we started doing more of that kind of a two tier. Even clubs that didn't have mezzanines, like our San Ramon club, I put like a catwalk in it. So I, I elevated up, put a catwalk all the way across, like 60, 000 square foot facility, and then builds a little cardio area in the back so you could look out, walk around. And that club was number one in the company for years and years and years. If you ever been in Santa Monica, you know, the corporate office had that catwalk in the middle.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

But, I mean, that's just a big sense. Again, people don't realize that that's a big deal. But gyms, back in the day, cardio didn't look at anything. It was TVs, and then that's. Which made a really, really big difference. Are there anything else that you could think of? Like, okay, here's another one. Gyms back in the day used to have rooms. Free weight room, machine room, cardio room. Now it's like, keep it all open. What made you guys figure that out? Was it just.

[Mark Mastrov]

Well, in the early days, you know, you compartmentalize because people are intimidated. It's kind of like the UFC when we first started. People walk in like, I don't want to go there, because I'm going to get my face beat out. Like, no, we don't do any fighting here. We train. And then they go, oh, this is amazing. They bring their friends and family. But in the early days, you had a wall around the freeways because women wouldn't want to go in there. They'd look at, oh, no, I don't want to go with those big bodybuilder guys. And then the women wanted their own little section and everything was kind of boxed. And then you started to recognize that, wait a minute, women are now moving around. They're going to every Area, let's just open it up. And then it was a lot easier to reconfigure your club because you can pick up and move it. If you want to move your free weights to one area and selectorize, you could do that. Where, when you compartmentalize, it was a little bit tougher to do it. And then mirrors played a big role. Right?

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Mark Mastrov]

So where do you put the mirrors as you do your dumbbells and as you do your squat racks, et cetera? And how you do the placement of that was a big part of it, too, because when we compartmentalize, we got a lot of mirrors around the walls. When we open it up, everything faced the. The outside of the building. Then you had to run mirrors in the middle if you want people to be able to see themselves.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

How long have you been doing what you call the. The test gym that's by your house? How long have you been doing that for? Were you, like.

[Mark Mastrov]

Most of my career, I've been.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I did not know that.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah. Like, we did the UFC and Concord. The first one is right by my home. I lived in Lafayette at the time. I'm like, we're going to open up right by the house. And Jim lived there, too. Mike was close by. So that was our beta, and we basically tested that out forever and ever.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I didn't realize you do that.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

One thing that I noticed, Mark, and you're the guy again, the guy to ask is, you know, there's gyms that feel so dark, and then there's gyms that have natural light. And for me, it makes a big difference to feel like there's natural light coming in. Is that something now that is being paid attention to?

[Mark Mastrov]

I think it's super important. I mean, I like a lot of glass skylights, if I can get. Yes, I think it's super important. Some of the clubs today are a lot of lighting, if you've noticed. They're putting in all kinds of disco lighting and. And crazy equipment, a lot of mirrors, a lot of shiny stuff that. I think that the Gen Z crowd may like that. Not for me. I mean, not. I don't want to come in and feel like I'm in Vegas, you know, hanging out in my gym. But maybe once in a while. But, yeah, I think that light is really important. Natural light is really important. That's why we didn't do a lot of basement space. Get offered basement all the time. We'll put you in a basement. I'm not going there because you're going into a dungeon and People don't want to work out in a dungeon. They might grind, you know, they might. You might get that lifter to go in there. But. Yeah, but the female audience isn't going to drop down into that dungeon. It's not going to happen.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Why, why, why, Mark? Why haven't you retired? Why do you keep doing this? You got all the money you want, you're successful, you could totally drop out and be like, whatever, why not? Why?

[Mark Mastrov]

I get that asked a bunch of times. I, I mean, when I left Crunch and I said, okay, I mean, maybe I'm just going to take a time out. And I got a bunch of stuff all over the world that I'm still owning and operating in multiple countries. I told my wife, I said, ah, you know, I got this opportunity with 24, and she's like, you should do it. Like, she got excited, like, what? Really? She goes, yeah, get that back.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Oh, you gotta do it.

[Mark Mastrov]

So she was behind me, I was like, wow, okay, this is dangerous now. She's been the most happy, like, you're out of the house. Get the hell out of here, go do work, get back, see in a few days and let me do my thing. But yeah, she's been super supportive. And then I've got four kids between 17 and 24 and they were all young when I left the company and they watched me build Crunch. And they're all doing different things. None of them are in the fitness industry, so to speak. I got one in college, one in high school. My oldest son, Mason's selling real estate in Dubai, of all places. Oh, interesting. Really cool for him. And my daughter's doing what most girls these days, you know, go to do social media and modeling. She's been, if you look at Nike, she's all over Nike. They've been hiring like crazy. So she's been doing a lot of modeling and she finished playing basketball, Cal. And she's kind of said, it's on my bucket list. I, I'm still young, I'm 22, I want to do a little bit of modeling. So. But long story short is now for them to maybe eventually get involved in the business and, and have a chance in their twenties, like I did when I started to learn a little bit about fitness and see if it's something that some of them want to do.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

I feel like that would be the dream. The dream would be a dad and be able to find a way to build something to where you guys can all stay connected and work together. That's awesome. When you were, when you were scaling and growing like that. And they were young. Were you. Were you able? Because I feel like you've also been a very present father, at least from. From afar. What it looks like, it looks like you get to go. To go to a lot of games and you don't miss a lot. So the fact that you've been able to build these things and still be able to do that. How did you do that? Did you just. Did you make a rule yourself? Hey, when they get to a certain age, I'm going to do only this much or I'm gonna. Like, how did you. How did you structure?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, no, great question. I mean, you know, when we. We sold in 05 and I kind of stepped out for a little bit before we built the other brands, you know, the kids were young and we had a couple more after that. And so I love being with my kids. And so I made it important as part of my DNA, is that I'm going to be there for them first. And so I would work as hard as I could and then get home and be there for their games and take them places. So my son, my daughter, they played club sports. I took them all over the country. Wow. I would work on the phone, work on my computer in breaks, and I would talk to people, but I was always there with them and traveling and hanging out and going to their games, making sure I didn't miss anything.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I think it's important. I think this plays. I was asking you about loyalty earlier. I think this might be one of the factors, because people have said about you that you value their families, whereas sometimes you work with people that are really driven, and it's like, you gotta sacrifice your time with your kids. Whereas what I've heard from people is like, oh, no, he cares. He wants you to be with your family.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah. I mean, I'm a big family guy, so I'm constantly asking, how are your kids? How's your wife? How's your family? What's going on in life? How are your parents? And if somebody says, look, my boy's playing a soccer game on Friday. It's a state game. You're not working. Get the hell out of here. Go do what you need to do. And I think it's important. That family's super important. You want to be good at work, you want to be great at home. Right. And you want to be as good as you possibly can be in your community. So I'm always preaching that. Be great at home. That's super important. Because if you're Balanced at home, you're kicking ass at work.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Agreed.

[Mark Mastrov]

If you're a mess at home, you're not kicking at work, you're not going to work.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Do you have a nemesis? Do you have somebody? You're like, oh, yeah, I want to crush that company. I want to just out compete them.

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah. I mean, good question. I've had them over the years and I've always felt like I did crush him. So I'm happy about that. But right now I'm friendly with everybody.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Okay.

[Mark Mastrov]

I was on the phone with Jim Rolly yesterday, and he probably hates me saying this, but you know Jim. You know, Jim's like, a little bit uptight that I left Crunch and ran over and bought 24. He's like, why the did you do that? Oh, man, it's my baby. Why can't I have it back? It's not fair to say, why did I do it? But he said a lot of the, the. A lot of the Crunch guys are, are like, how could Mark do that to you? How could he run over to 24? And Jim's like, well, you don't know Mark like I know Mark. Right? And I said to him, I said, well, just let them know that we're not going to be 9.99. We're going to hopefully be a little bit higher pricing. They're going to look at us not as a direct competitor, but let them all know that they pissed me off. I'm gonna come out. And he started laughing. I know, I know. So don't think they're gonna open up next to me, and I'm not going to counter. We're going to build something right next to them, put them out of business. Be nice in the sandbox. Play nice, and we'll play nice.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Have you had. Okay, so you. Have you had again? Have you. You come off so calm.

[Mark Mastrov]

Cool.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Have you. Have you done anything after a win, a conquer, a squash or someone? Like, what's. Have you done something? Send a nice letter, bouquet of flowers, like, have you done. Have you done something to somebody? Who, Who's. Who's done you? Like that? And then in business you got your. Like, have you done something like that?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, I had a group call me three days, four days ago, just an example. And they have some clubs in Texas. They said, hey, there's a site that's 100ft from one of your locations that the landlord says he can put us into, and we're thinking of going in there and I just want to call you first out of courtesy to See what you would do if I did that? And I said, well, first you'd be my mortal enemy. Second, I would take my club in a remodel before you even started construction. I'd lower my price to the ridiculous and I'd fucking hammer you and put you out of business. He's like, okay, I'm not going there. But it's a fun, competitive business. You're kind of competing against your brothers and sisters out there and there's plenty of room for everybody. You just have to differentiate your product a little bit. Yeah, and I think 24 has a very differentiated product from Crunch and planet for sure. Ellie Fitness is starting to sell a lot of their boxes right now. They're slowing down a little bit. He's moved towards a club studio concept which is around group exercise, high end, 200amonth type product. So I think that we can all kind of differentiate and survive and do well. But I don't like when people with me, I just have a tendency to love to compete. I've been competing my whole life in everything that I do, whether it's through my kids, whether it's through business. So once you fire me up, I mean, I will not stop sleeping, thinking about it and basically just get after it.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Which, which kids most like you?

[Mark Mastrov]

Oh, great question. I think they're, they're all pretty similar. My oldest son is a badass. He's, he's like, he was a 6 5, 245 pound kid. Just a big, big monster. Played football in college. My daughter's uber competitive. I mean, she's cracking me up. She's like, hey, Dad, I was in New York Mollying. I was doing some fashion week stuff and I went down to solid core and I got next to this gal who was in great shape and we competed in the whole class. My, my third son's a big lifter. You'd love him. He's probably, you know, six one, 230 pound kid, massive lean. And my last guy is probably the craziest of them all. He's in high school still, but he's a great athlete, very competitive. But I think they're all, they're all like me. They all have a fire. They've all competed in sports because I came through the sports channel like you guys did. I think that's how you learn how to compete. You learn how to win, how to lose, how to deal with difficult people, how to overcome the odds, how putting in the time, energy and effort shows you success. And it's the same thing in Life and in business, you got to put the effort in to get there. And I think that that's part of what my kids have gone through. They've all been competing at very high levels as I pushed and pushed and coached and coached and tried to be there for them and see that engine run, I think is part of what makes this country so great.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

What's, which one's most likely to have the business acumen?

[Mark Mastrov]

I mean, they all do. My, my daughter's very intrepid. My oldest son's very intrepidal. My third guy's a brainiac, super smart, I mean 4.4 valedictorian type kid, great athlete. And my youngest guy's the, he's an assassin. He's just, you know, because you're the fourth kid, you don't have to have a curfew anymore, where all of a sudden had a 10, 8, 10pm curfew perfume. This guy can go out to 2 in the morning. My wife doesn't care. And he's six 3, 190 pound athlete, good looking kid. That whatever he wants to do, he, he somehow seems to make it work. As an example, you know, he, he befriends Adam Sandler and during the pandemic we spent a lot of time with the Sandlers. Adam's awesome and he golf with Adam every day because he's a really good golfer. And one day Adam's like, hey, do you think your kid would want to be in a movie? I'm like, I don't know. You can ask him. He goes, well, ask him because I got this role for him and I'm like, okay. And so I asked him and Merrick, our youngest, is like, yeah, I'd be up for that. So Adam's like, well, you gotta, you gotta audition for Netflix. I can't get you the job, but I can get you in the door. So he auditions and they hire him and he makes a movie. Adam Sandler, he's just that kid that something always seems to happen for him. So when you say which one. I know sometimes I think it might be him because he's the last one, but he just kind of, whatever he steps into, it just always seems to work.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

They all have the potential though. It sounds like, yeah, when you look back, we're all fathers. What would you say you and your wife did? Really? I mean, to have four kids that really turn out like that, that's, that's really rare, especially for having a father who is built something as big as you have. It's really tough to juggle that much business success, also that much family success. Like, when you look back, what did you and your wife do really? Right.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Like.

[Mark Mastrov]

Well, I give her all the credit and she takes it. And she was present at all times with the kids. And she's, she's a Colorado girl. She's all over. She's a great athlete, phenomenal shape. And she just focused on the kids and gave them everything she had every day and kept them again in the guardrails. Never got too far off the right or the left and made sure that they were really well balanced. And my job was to mentor, train and develop. Right. Which is what I do at work and what I do at home. I mean, I'm constantly with them. I'm not their best friend, but I'm going to push them, shove them. I'm going to make sure they got their grades right, they're doing their homework, I'm on top of all that stuff. And engage with them on a daily basis. And then you just have to make sure that they have the right people around them.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Mark Mastrov]

Because sometimes they bring a friend into the friend group. It's like, that's not a good choice. You might want to rethink that particular.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

We were just talking about that before you walked in today. That's something that I've been dealing with quite a bit lately, but I'm curious to hear how you deal with that.

[Mark Mastrov]

And my wife's like, they can't come to the house. You can't go to their house. They're not part of your friend group. Sorry, not going to happen. And she's done that a bunch of times. Or I'm like, I like that kid. No, this, this, this, this. Oh, I didn't know that. Okay, okay, that's, that's. I got it. And so there's some of that. But you know that the kids also see how hard you work. Right. Which is another reason why I'm still working. It's like I want them to know that I'm never going to retire. I'm going to bust my ass and you need to do the same. So they see me working hard and they're proud to see their dad working hard. And then, you know, I've always got their back. Whatever they need, whatever they want to do, no problem. We'll take care of it. We'll make it happen.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Did you and your wife naturally fall into those roles or did you guys actually have like a sit down conversation? I mean, how that unfolds?

[Mark Mastrov]

Yeah, good question. I Mean, my. My wife's a dominant personality, so I pretty much fall in line behind her. You know, she's the smartest person in the household, so whatever she says goes. We'll have our spats here and there. But generally, she's been really, really good at fueling the kids, feeding them well, keeping them healthy, not getting them into the crap, candy, all that. She's really, really healthy, feeding them as best she can and fueling them for success and then staying on top of them, you know. But I think the two of us kind of figured out after a period of time where we needed to balance it out. I was about education and sports. Yeah. And she was about everything else. You know, the way that they groom, take care of their room, the way they dress, the attire, how they talk to people. I remember a great story. We. We got invited to dinner at George Clooney's house, the actor. And we came over. George, of course, at that time, was not gonna have kids, never get married, what his thing was, and knew him a little bit. Nice guy. So we come to the house. Each one of my kids comes in the door. Because we brought all four of the kids. They're like, nice to meet you, Mr. Clooney. My name's Mason. My name's Mia. My name's Maddox. My name's Merrick. They all introduce themselves. Merrick's probably like 4 years old at the time. And they all go through. Then we had a dinner that night, about 20 people. And George says, I just want to say that I had an observation tonight that the four master of kids walked in. They all looked me in the eye, they shook my hand, they said their name, they said my name. That's how I was raised. If I could have four kids like that, I would have kids. That's great. That was badass.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

What a complimentation.

[Mark Mastrov]

That's a pretty cool observation. And then they spent time talking to him, and one of the things he told them is that one of the keys to success that you're going to find his life is to be a good storyteller. If you can tell a good story, that's going to bode well for you. And if you get my four kids, they all tell pretty good stories. They don't tell me all the good ones, but yeah. So things like that in life, where opportunity presents itself and. And your kids can be around you and they can. Experiencing it rounds them and it makes them hungry for more. Yeah.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I have a speculation. I'd love your just your opinion on when you're you know, when we're looking at, like, the landscape with tech and there's all these speculations with AI and what it's doing, and one of them, you know, I heard Elon Musk say, you know, it's going to be a future of universal high income. And so you're going to have incredible efficiency and you're going to have machines and robots and AI doing all this work for us, which means you have a lot of people who will have, I guess, resources but not go to work. For me, I feel like that's going to make fitness explode. It's going to make fitness so big because you have all these people with all this time and where are you going to spend your time? You're going to want to go to the gym to become more fit, to meet with people, to work with people. So I feel like the potential there is massive.

[Mark Mastrov]

I agree 100%. I think that fitness is becoming more social. Right. So it's like a social club. It's not just a gym. It's place where I can hang out, talk to people, meet people, do business. Right. At the same time, look and feel better. So we've been doing that our entire life, but people are starting to recognize that you guys are doing good work. And this is something that's going to continue to bode well as we come through this whole AI period, whatever that ends up being. You know, there's some people think that the 30% of the workforce is going to lose their jobs, have to change career paths, and maybe that'll happen. But I think our industry is going to just excel.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yep.

[Mark Mastrov]

So I think we're in a good place and I'm feeling pretty good for all the folks that are getting after it.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Last question I have for you related to the 24 acquisition. Will the financial side of it be public? Will we know, like, exactly what you acquire it for and all all that? Will that be public?

[Mark Mastrov]

No. I mean, it's a private transaction. If we decide to go public one day, it might be, but for now it's just, you know, myself and one partner and we own it. We'll crush it. They're letting me run hard and I'm kind of in charge and it's all good. Got a great team there. Carl Samp's awesome. He's got great people around him. We just have to give them the tools for success and let them fly and then let them make a ton more money. So they're a Favorite location?

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Favorite 24 Fitness location.

[Mark Mastrov]

Good question. I mean, if I Go back to the old days. Sunnyvale was probably my favorite location. That wood in there. Yeah, that baby was a badass club. We did well there and, you know, I can remember some of the staff and we had a lot of fun, you know, lost a few people that have not with us anymore that used to work there.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I ran that club. Jon Stewart worked for me.

[Mark Mastrov]

He's one of the guys John passed from Cronin's disease, but you know, the Human Volcano we used to call him, if you remember. Right. But that club was probably my favorite in the old days. In the modern era, I mean, it'd probably be between San Ramon and we opened a big box, 100,000 square footer down in LA that was pretty damn cool.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

But is that the one with the. The escalators that went up to it? Is that that one?

[Mark Mastrov]

No, that was Point Loma.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh, Point Loma.

[Mark Mastrov]

That's what that was. One we used to get a lot of laughter from because the escalator going into the gym, there were stairs, narrow the picture. Like, look at this. You know, used to go viral all the time. We get a kick out of it. It's now a UFC gym, actually. Yeah, that's right.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Well, you know, recently we heard the White House say they're going to release the potential aliens that are real or whatever. Oh, you that ad. Yeah. Do you still think they're going to eat the fat ones for? First one, please bring it through.

[Mark Mastrov]

It'll make you laugh. Because I kept all my from 24 hour, like in boxes and my wife, like every year, can you get rid of this stuff in the garage? I'm like, no, I'm keeping it. And I kept it, kept it, kept it. And so 20 years later, all of a sudden, 24 hour falls back in my lap. I'm like, see? So I started opening stuff up and I had the alien shirts. No, you don't. I got a bunch of the originals. So I took it to the company, I gave it to Carl. So they made a new shirt and it's basically the whole alien thing, but it says we're back. Oh, yeah. And we're gonna wear those, so.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Oh, that's cool.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

That's awesome.

[Mark Mastrov]

That's pretty cool. But yeah, I have a bunch of the old ones and ton of stuff that we broke out all, all kinds of retail.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I have a box in my garage with all my 24 hour awards. It's like a huge box with all of them. My very first one, my name was misspelled.

[Mark Mastrov]

Never fails. No, never fails.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Well, this was awesome.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

I really appreciate you coming on and

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

you know, we're excited to watch it, man.

[Mind Pump Host - Sal Destefano]

Yes, appreciate it.

[Mark Mastrov]

You guys are doing great work. Happy for you. Keep it rolling. If we can be helpful anyway, you let us know. We will, but kick ass.

[Mind Pump Host - Justin Andrews]

Thank you, Mark.

[Mind Pump Host - Adam Schafer]

Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super bump [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, anabolic maps, performance and maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs with detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and just as your own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.

[Mark Mastrov]

We're lost. It feels like we're going round in circles. I'm gonna ask that man for directions. Hi there. We're trying to get to the state fairgrounds.

[T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser]

Well, you're gonna take a left at the old oak tree at this here road.

[Mark Mastrov]

Nah, I'm just kidding.

[T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser]

Let me get my phone out.

[Mark Mastrov]

How is their signal out here?

[T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser]

T Mobile and US Cellular are coming together. So the network out here is huge. We get the same great signal as the city, saving a boatload with benefits. And there's a five year price guarantee too. Okay, here's the turn.

[Mark Mastrov]

Actually, can you pull up the way to a T Mobile store?

[T-Mobile/US Cellular Advertiser]

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