2846: Why People Quit Personal Trainers (And Whether AI Can Replace Them)

Summary

Mind Pump: Raw Fitness Truth

Episode 2846: Why People Quit Personal Trainers (And Whether AI Can Replace Them)
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Date: April 29, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, the Mind Pump crew dives into a pressing question in the modern fitness landscape: Why do people stop working with personal trainers, and can AI provide a comparable or even better alternative? With wit and deep industry experience, the hosts break down six core reasons clients quit trainers, discuss the unique value of human coaching, and critically examine the role AI might play in the future of fitness. The episode also features several live call-in coaching sessions, tackling real-world client struggles and giving actionable advice on topics ranging from adolescent weightlifting to post-pregnancy fitness journeys.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Six Reasons People Quit Personal Trainers

(03:00 - 25:00)

1.1 Cost: “It’s Too Expensive”

• Main Takeaway: The number one objection to hiring a trainer is cost. While AI or free information may seem attractive due to the lower price, the crew emphasizes that the real value of a good coach isn’t just knowledge but accountability, customization, and personal connection.
• Sal (05:04):

  "If I knew $3000 of working with someone would significantly impact me or solve this challenge that I've been dealing with, I think a lot of people wouldn't think it was expensive."

• Adam (06:51):

  “The ideal though being, you know, this personalized one on one attention—like somebody that's professional, has predictive knowledge, has very specific knowledge of how to steer you behaviorally.”

• AI’s Role: AI solves the cost problem to an extent, but lacks the emotional intelligence, individualized adjustment, and behavioral guidance of a human coach.

1.2 Lack of Personalization

• Doug (11:15):

  "There's still a smaller percentage of great coaches... what makes a really good coach and trainer is somebody who's worked with people for years."

• Justin (12:30):

  "A personal trainer takes into account effort, mood, attitude, stress... AI will only be able to work with the information you give."

• Adam (14:58):

  "Health and biometrics, but not like a lot of psychology, which is pretty much the majority of coaching."

• Key Idea: AI can analyze more metrics, but cannot “prod or read” like a human. Human trainers excel at detecting unspoken cues, adjusting based on energy and mood, and coaching around psychological resistance.

1.3 Boring Workouts

• Justin (17:36):

  "In the back half of my career, if you looked at the workouts themselves—very boring... yet my clients never missed, showed up all the time."

• Adam (19:11):

  "If you're a trainer and you don't want to be there, they're not going to want to be there. If you love what you're doing, I guarantee they won't feel bored."

• Point: Veteran coaches communicate upfront about redundancy for mastery. If a client is bored, it’s the trainer, not the workout, that’s failed them.

1.4 Scheduling Conflicts

• AI Fix: AI is always available, but genuine, lasting success comes from carving out dedicated time for movement, regardless of a trainer or AI’s flexibility.
• Sal (21:26):

  “In my experience, the people that are successful carve out however much time they can—a window—and stay consistent.”

1.5 Trainer Doesn’t Practice What They Preach

• Integrity Over Perfection: Clients leave when a trainer projects perfection but is exposed as inauthentic or judgmental.
• Justin (23:10):

  "If you present yourself as like this perfect fitness God and then you hammer your client for every little mistake, there’s no grace... the second they see you slip up, they're like, screw you, I'm out of here."

• Lesson: Vulnerability and relatability are huge assets for a coach.

1.6 Miscellaneous & Human Connection Limits

• AI Will Not Replace Human Connection:
  • Justin (25:34): “No professions that require human connection... It won't. No, no, no.”
  • Adam (25:39): “It will be really poor [substitute].”
  • If/when AI replaces humans for connection, we have “way bigger problems than not having jobs.”

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2. The P90X Revival & Critique of "Trendy" Fitness Programs

(27:05 - 30:00)

• The crew pokes fun at the relaunch of P90X (“Gener Next”), critiquing its relentless every-day approach and “muscle confusion” tactics as marketing gimmicks rather than effective, science-backed programming.
• Justin (27:13):

  “I’ll tell you, AI is better than that.”

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3. The Limitations of AI, Data, and Prompting

(30:16 - 33:06)

• While AI can create generic plans, it often falls short due to poor prompting (users don’t know what to ask for), gaps in unspoken context, and not being privy to real-life nuance.
• Doug (30:34):

  "If I was prompting the AI, I could have gave him a better setup... but since the consumer doesn't know better... they just go, I want to get in shape."

• Sal shares a poignant example of troubleshooting back pain that was only solved through nuanced, “outside the box” questions a human would intuit (32:59).

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• Doug (09:34):

  "It'd be like comparing reading Jordan Peterson's book or getting one-on-one counseling with him for three months...The value is completely different."

• Justin (10:50):

  “A good trainer is not a validating machine. They'll validate when appropriate and other times they won't.”

• Justin (24:29):

  “If you're honest, especially if you struggle... That is a very powerful... relationship-building strategy.”

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Call-In Coaching Breakdowns

1. Teenage Son Has Knee Pain During Squats

[58:54] Nikki from Georgia

• Main Issue: 15-year-old with knee pain on normal squats, fine with box squats; doctor claims heavy lifting will “make bones grow out, not up.”
• Diagnosis: Likely poor ankle mobility + changing direction with load = stress on knees.
• Action Steps:
  • Work on ankle mobility (offer of Prime Pro program, [64:55])
  • Focus on split stance/unilateral movements (symmetry/sports-specific for strength) instead of loading up squats more.
  • Ignore B.S. about stunting growth—risk is only with injury to growth plates, which are hard to damage under safe, controlled lifting.
• Justin (61:46):

  “As long as you’re going to grow out, not up, so there’s some truth to [growth plate damage], but the amount of tension required is incredibly high.”

• Sal (65:18):

  “He’s already strong... Now we get him in split stance, more applicable for sport.”

2. Reverse Dieting & Long-Term Leanness

[69:37] Mike from Ontario

• Background: Once obese, lost weight through cardio/restriction, recently learned about reverse dieting; now eating more, body composition improved.
• Struggle: Wants long-term sustainability, higher calories, and the ability to indulge without setback.
• Coaching:
  • Celebrate the leaner look at higher calories—build into leanness rather than always “cutting” into it.
  • Calories at 2,500 can go up to near 3,200—focus on gaining/maintaining muscle and strength while staying at current weight.
  • If you plateau, cut only briefly, but let 3,200+ calories be your “norm.”
  • Adam (77:44): “You could bump your calories 300 right now.”
  • Mind Pump offers to send MAPS Anabolic program for better training structure.

3. Reverse Dieting, BMR, and Metabolism After Pregnancy

[81:38] Kayla from South Carolina

• Background: Trend of under-eating and over-training; now at higher calorie intake post-pregnancy and breastfeeding; BMR readout from scan not matching real-world experience.
• Main Question: Should BMR change as you add muscle? Are scans accurate? Is tracking calories a better guide?
• Answer:
  • Real-world calorie maintenance > scan estimates.
  • Devices (InBody, DEXA, etc.) notoriously understate BMR for active, muscular people (can be 500–1,000 calories off).
  • Track trends, strength, energy, and use body fat measures for “directional” feedback, not absolute truth.
  • Forecast for clients up front—don’t let scan tech dictate progress, use it as supplementary data only.

4. Returning to Strength & Confidence Postpartum

[93:11] Hannah & Tyler from Ohio

• Background: PT, ex-athlete mom; hitting PRs and healthy body fat post-2 kids but struggles mentally with new body image.
• Coaching Points:
  • “Build into the body you want, don’t cut into it.” (98:48)
  • Your new set point may be higher, but you’ll look, feel, and perform better over time.
  • “Buy new clothes. Stop worrying about ‘old size.’”
  • Maintain calories 2,400–2,700 and keep focusing on strength & energy.
  • You’ll likely drift down naturally to a leaner, firmer look as your body recovers more fully.
• Memorable Moment:

  “[To her husband, present for the call] I know he's thinking like, honey, you’re killing it... but you don’t want to hear it from your [husband].” (104:33)

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Practical Tips & Takeaways

• AI & Apps: Great for “good enough” or budget workouts, but human accountability, intuition, and nonverbal communication are irreplaceable.
• Personal Training: Invest in great people, not just certified bodies; seek those who individualize, connect, and care.
• Body Composition: Trust consistent progress markers (strength, photos, clothing fit, energy), not only scale or BMR printouts.
• Reverse Dieting: Build up calories, don’t chronically diet—your metabolism and lifestyle will thank you.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Sal (05:04):

  "If I knew $3000 of working with someone would significantly impact me or solve this challenge that I've been dealing with, I think a lot of people wouldn't think it was expensive."

• Adam (14:58):

  “It’s all metrics. It’s not going to be... a lot of psychology, which is pretty much the majority of coaching.”

• Doug (09:34):

  "It'd be like comparing reading Jordan Peterson's book or getting one-on-one counseling with him for three months."

• Justin (17:36):

  "In the back half of my career, if you looked at the workouts themselves—very boring... yet my clients never missed, showed up all the time."

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Segment Timestamps

• 03:00 – 25:00: Deep dive on the six reasons clients quit personal training & AI’s role
• 27:05 – 30:00: Critiquing P90X revival & "trendy" programs
• 30:16 – 33:06: AI limitations and the art of prompting
• 58:54 – 69:16: Caller 1 – Adolescent training safety & specialization
• 69:37 – 81:38: Caller 2 – Body recomposition, reverse dieting, long-term sustainability
• 81:38 – 93:11: Caller 3 – Metabolic testing, BMR accuracy, postpartum fitness
• 93:11 – 104:53: Caller 4 – Body image post-babies, athletic identity, and building confidence

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Final Thoughts

The Mind Pump team once again brings their trademark honesty, humor, and expertise, offering nuanced perspectives on the intersection of technology and fitness, the psychology of coaching, and the realities of sustainable health. This episode is a must-listen (or read) for anyone wrestling with the temptations of AI fitness apps vs real trainers, and for anyone looking for real-world, compassionate coaching advice for lifelong health.

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For further information:

• Mind Pump on Instagram: @mindpumpmedia, @mindpumpsal, @mindpumpadam, @mindpumpjustin, @mindpumpdoug

Transcript

[Sal Destefano]

If you want to pump your body

[Justin Andrews]

and expand your mind, there's only one place to go. Mind Pump. Mind Pump.

[Mike]

With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer

[Justin Andrews]

and Justin Andrews, you just found the most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. In today's episode, live callers called in and we got to coach them on air. So people called in, asked us questions about their fitness and health and Adam, Justin and myself got to help them. It's a good time, but that was after our intro. Today's intro is 55 minutes long. So in the intro we talk about fitness, fat loss, muscle gain, current events, we talk about diet. That whole segment again, 55 minutes long. And if you want to be on an episode like this where you call in, here's what you do. Send us your question. You want to send it to mplifecaller.com now. This episode is brought to you by some sponsors. The first one is Manukora. So this is Manuka honey with the highest grading of mgo you'll find anywhere that's antimicrobial, it's anti inflammatory pro gut health. It's good for you and it tastes good. Go check them out. Go to manukora.com that's M A N U K O R-A.com mindpump use the code mindpump. You can save up to 31% off plus get $25 worth free gifts. This episode is also brought to you by butcherbox. So here's what butcherbox does. They deliver grass fed meat, heritage pork, wild caught fish, chicken and more to your door at great prices. If you like protein, you want it to be healthy and you want to save money, go to butcherbox.com mindpump and now until May 18th, new users will get their choice between chicken breast for a year, top sirloin for a year or ground beef included in their box for life plus $20 off. That's butcherbox.com mindpump we also have a brand new program this month. Brand new workout program, maps. Push pull legs. It's a three day split. It's push pull and legs. It's 40% off right now. Go to mapsppl.com use the code ppl for the 40% off. Plus we'll throw you some free stuff. All right, here comes the show.

[Doug]

T shirt time.

[Sal Destefano]

And it's T shirt time.

[Doug]

Ah shit, Doug. You know it's my favorite time of the week.

[Sal Destefano]

Two winners this week. One for Apple Podcasts, one for Facebook. The Apple Podcast winner is Dean 3 and for Facebook, we have Laura Jordan. Both of you are winners. Send a name I just read to iTunes. Mindpumpmedia.com include your shirt size and your shipping address and we'll get that shirt right out to you.

[Adam Schaefer]

All right, real quick, if you love us like we love you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs, or training gear? [e-mail] I'm talking right now. Hit pause, head on over to my pumpstore.com.

[Doug]

that's it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Justin Andrews]

The most effective thing you could do for your health and fitness, if you have goals, if you want to lose body fat, you want to get stronger, or if you just want to make fitness something that you do for the rest of your life, is hire a good personal trainer. But people sometimes oftentimes stop working with their trainers. We're going to give you the six reasons why they stopped doing it. In fact, I'm going to ask my co host here about that and if AI is a good substitute. Yeah. So what we did is we looked up, our team, looked up the top six reasons why people stop working with a trainer. And the AI angle is coming up more and more now. I think it's coming up more and more for a lot of different places, different occupations. And so the question is coming up now, even for fitness with AI and if it's going to play a role in any of this stuff. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to go through some of these reasons we could talk about a little bit and then see, like, will AI actually be a solution to some of these reasons. Okay, so the first one is. And this, this definitely, I would say, has got to be the top reason why someone doesn't work with a trainer or stops working with a trainer. They say it's too expensive.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Cost too much money.

[Doug]

Yeah. This is very most common objection and reason I think that was has always been this. And I also think that the people that don't even end up getting a personal trainer that are using AI, this would be their reason, too. I look, when I look at my family, who I am aware of that uses AI to help coach them through their workouts, ironically, your family. Yeah. Hard to be a prophet in your hometown.

[Adam Schaefer]

We do have a free podcast, so.

[Doug]

And they do. They, they use. But I have some interesting cool stories about that because several of them have. And then eventually came back to asking help from me about that. And so it does kind of solve that. Right. I mean, it's not expensive to use. AI but the question becomes, is it, how comparable is it as far? Sure. It's inexpensive.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

It's free.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Is it effective? But I would argue that that's not the main value of a coach.

[Justin Andrews]

No, exactly. So I think to start out, working with a trainer is expensive in the context of all the things you can pay for in the fitness space. Right. What can you pay for? Like gym membership supplements, maybe someone to help you with your diet or whatever. The most expensive, to have somebody there with you in person a couple days a week, on average, depending on where you live, you're going to pay anywhere between on the low end, $50 a session to on the high end. It can be as expensive in some areas as over $100, sometimes 120, $130 a session. And so it isn't inexpensive, especially when you compare it to how cheap gym memberships have gotten and information, how free information is. But I think the real question, you kind of said this a little bit, Adam, is what am I getting for the money? Because if I, if I know I'm going to get the results I'm looking for, if I know I'm going to get sustainable results, if I know it's going to change my life in that way, then I think for a lot of people, the money becomes. It's worth the money. Right. This is a problem. If this is going to solve this issue, which is a big issue, this is a hard one for a lot of people. People struggle with this for a long time. If it's going to solve this issue. If working with a trainer for six months, which, let's say it costs you, how much would six months of personal training cost you? What could that possibly. Is that $3000? Let's say yes, with 3000. If $3000. If I knew $3000 of working with someone would significantly impact me or solve this challenge that I've been dealing with, I think a lot of people wouldn't think it was expensive. I think they would see the value in it. I think the problem is they compare it to other aspects of fitness, in which case it's way more expensive.

[Adam Schaefer]

There's a lot of watered down versions. If you go back, even when we were trainers, this was always like the big challenge to overcome. And so you'd kind of go through the thought process of like, well, do I want to do the buddy up kind of approach? Do I want to do the group sessions? Do I want to just coach them from afar and give them like written out workout plans and you know, you know, and now we have like the virtual versions of that and there's, there's, there's lots of different, like, variations of it. The ideal though being, you know, this personalized one on one attention, like somebody that's professional, has predictive knowledge, has very specific knowledge of how to steer you behaviorally. I just don't feel like the rest of it really compares to that.

[Doug]

I think it's a, I think it's a really good point. You're bringing up Justin. Like this isn't actually a new problem or challenge that we've tried to overcome. Like too expensive has been the number one objection forever. And to Justin's point, we've tried a lot of things. Group coaching, small group coaching, virtual coaching,

[Justin Andrews]

free workouts, online free workouts in magazines, free gym membership.

[Doug]

So we, we've done a lot of things to, to address the two expensive yet personal training has remained around and thriving and, and well needed for a lot of people. And so I don't think the AI brings something for that objection. Right. So I'm curious to hear the other ones because for that one it's like it's a bit moot.

[Justin Andrews]

It is. Because if you think that you're hiring a trainer for information, we're starting out with the wrong assumption right out the gates because that's not what you're getting. That's not the value of a good coach. So a trainer should know exercises and proper technique and form and how to individualize it. That's actually the lowest bar right there by the way. Like that's the bottom. Like if you don't know that you have no, you shouldn't even apply to be a trainer. So we need to assume that when we're working with like that's the bottom. That's the bottom rung in free information has been available for a long time. AI is new, but Google is not. Well, I feel it is not Maggot fitness magazines are not. So it's not the inform. I could tell you 100%. And you can talk to any good coach or trainer that the one. And what I mean by good is the ones that were successful in the sense that their clients were able to develop these, this relationship with fitness, that they were able to maintain it long term, that it really changed their life not just lose 30 pounds, but lose it and then keep it off forever. Was it the information that you gave your clients? Was that what did it? And they're all going to say no, no, no, no, it was the guidance, it was the coaching, it was the being through this, going through this process.

[Doug]

Well, it'd be like comparing reading Jordan Peterson's book or getting one on one counseling with him for three months. You know, like which one? I mean I can always read his book y and understand his philosophy and his belief in his 12 rules on life. But to sit in a one on one session with him every hour and let him dig into me and ask me questions of where. I mean I think the value and what I get from that is completely different than what I get from picking that book up because no different than somebody who can go online, prompt, chat, GBT to spit out a bunch of great information related to diet and exercise and all this stuff. It's like versus a coach who's meeting with you on a, on a regular basis who is then going, taking all that knowledge that maybe all that information that the AI could spit out and then customizing it and applying it to and, and, and, and also disregarding things that are irrelevant to that person based on the phase or where they're at. So let me, let me hear the other ones. I'm curious what the.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I just, I'm going to add one more thing. I think until I can become human and you can develop a human relationship with them, it'll, it's just not going to. And by the way, there are people right now who develop relationships with AI and it's very problematic because AI is a validating machine.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

A good trainer, reinforcer of bias is not a validating machine. They'll validate when appropriate and other times they'll, they won't. And they're also real, they're human. And so you have a real relationship. So I just, if you're just looking for information that that's all that's already been there. The next one is it's not personalized. This is interesting to me. I don't, that's kind of what trainers do. So this must be a bad experience.

[Doug]

Well, no, I think that's a, I think that's a fair. I think this goes back to what I've definitely tried to argue or say many times when we bring up personal training is that there's, there still is a smaller percentage of great coaches. Yeah, I think at, at least half or more than half are entry level, non experienced, you know, fresh out of school, fresh off the certification. And I think what makes a really good coach and trainer is somebody who's worked with people for years and so otherwise. And I know I'm Guilty of this. I know I'm guilty. The first, at least the first couple years of all my clients were doing the same workouts.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Doug]

You know, like, for sure was.

[Adam Schaefer]

Then they ask each other. They find out, yeah, this still persists. Like the, the chalkboard kind of work out. And then, yeah, I think the, the limitation of the coach's knowledge. But then also, too, I think that influencers fall in this category of, you know, really showing and portraying this, this healthy image. But then they go into the coaching space without really the knowledge of personal training, and they give everybody kind of this same carbon copy experience.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, but let me add a little bit to that, because personalization isn't just a unique workout. I had a lot of clients whose workouts look very similar. That's not the personalization that I think is important. Yeah, definitely you adjust exercises and technique. But what AI will do is analyze data. Data is important. A personal trainer takes into account things like effort, mood, attitude, stress. Sometimes the data says one thing, but when you're with your client, you know, it's still not the right thing.

[Doug]

Sure.

[Justin Andrews]

So there are many times when the data would have said, my client needs to have a hard workout, but I know them because I've been working with them for months or years. We're talking like, no, no, what. What he needs right now is something totally different. I know he's got good sleep, but I could tell he's off a bit, and it's probably not a good idea. And a good coach will do this, whereas AI is not going to be able to do this. It won't be able to do this for two reasons. One, it will only be able to work with the information you give. Many times clients don't even give that information.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

The coach's job is to prod or read. Yeah, exactly. To observe. And, you know, when, you know, you can, you can press a little more, you can pull back, you have to pull back a bit more. And, you know, the individual is just going to kind of look at it as like, this is my plan. I have to stick with this. You know, hell or high water, you as a coach are like, this isn't benefiting. I have to, like, you know, we have to bring the intensity level down, and they're not really aware of that.

[Justin Andrews]

There are times when I've pushed clients who said that they needed an easier workout, and they probably would have benefited physiologically from it, maybe like physically from an easier workout, but they were afraid of the intensity. And so I was trying to help them get over the fear. And I didn't overdo it, but it was helpful to become more comfortable. I've also had the reverse. I've also had the fanatic who's doing everything perfect. And I'm trying to get them to be okay with having the occasional easy workout. And so my job is to convince them and coach them through that process. In other words, they're not coming in, giving me the data.

[Doug]

No.

[Justin Andrews]

This is what I'm reading as a good coach. And AI won't be able to do that. AI will read your data. So it might be able to read your heart, your heart rate variability. At some point it's going to read your sleep score, maybe a grip strength test, and then you're going to say, tell me what to do and then you're going to follow it and it's not gonna be able to read what's going on.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's all metrics. It's not going to be. Yeah, health and biometrics, but not like a lot of psychology, which is pretty much the majority of coaching.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah. I would make the. That one of the most valuable things about, aside from what you guys already touched on, you know, with modifying the workout is actually the in between sets, you know, talking about my client and, you know, managing stress, getting better sleep, educating. Yeah. Prepping meals, good choices, you know, like, like that's, that, that happens during that hour is a lot of conversation of, you know, I had a really hard time hitting my protein intake yesterday. Oh, well, tell me what you ate. Oh, I ate this. Oh, you know what, try this. This has worked really well for a lot of my clients, you know, or I mean, that's just on the fly while you're working out. There's no metric that, there's no, no data you're going to plug in to spit off something like that. Like it's just. So there's other things outside of the workout to your point that, that the trainer is going to be able to do. And again, AI is, is not going to be able to or it won't look the same. I should say.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Extremely dedicated, consistent. I'm never missing a workout, no matter what. I'm a high level athlete. I'm already working with a coach. AI data can be great.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You know, you plug in the data. This is what it says. I'm already training Strava.

[Doug]

Well, I was going to say, do you think it's much Strava client? Is it much different than Strava or Fitbit? I mean, no, it's Very similar. Right.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like an assistant just interprets it. Yeah.

[Doug]

Like, I mean I, I, I, I have, I find my aura ring to be extremely beneficial for me, you know, because it's just another data point can look at. For example, we've, I've been talking about my sleep for quite some time and so I'm constantly tweaking these things and then referring to that going like, okay, that's working or that's not working. And so, but it's not the end all be all for sure.

[Justin Andrews]

Sometimes there's trust too. Like a client could come in with all the right measurements. I never use these things, by the way, for this particular reason. But there were a couple times I had clients that were really into data with their Fitbit and all that stuff. I even had a client that would measure heart rate variability before it was even a thing. Yeah. And they could come in and all the measurements could look good. Everything says that they're great, but then they tell me, listen, man, I'm not feeling too great. Yeah, you know what, I'm going to listen to you, John. At this moment, you know best. You need to know that I, that you try. You can trust me. Yeah. You know, and this is just kind of again, one of those relationship things. Here's another one. This one's one of my favorites. People cancel because of boring workouts. And so here's what I'm going to say. I made this mistake as a trainer. I thought the excitement of the workout

[Adam Schaefer]

you got to cater to that was

[Justin Andrews]

what made things effective. Like the workout is different and razzle dazzle and we're hyped. And I'm like, ah, you're having fun. We're doing all this new stuff and today we're going to try something crazy that you've never done before.

[Adam Schaefer]

Restrict your breathing today with a mask.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm going to tell you something right now. The workouts that I did with my clients in the back half of my career, if you looked at the workouts themselves very boring, you'd be like, that's the most boring work I've ever seen in my life. And yet my clients never missed, showed up all the time.

[Doug]

I mean that's a, that's a lot of results. That's a lack of education on the trainer right there. Right. So that's because I agree. I was 100% the same way fell into the trap of trying to dazzle my clients with unique exercises every time they came in versus this is, these are the five stability. These are the five most effective Things we can do. And we're going to do a lot of it and get really good at it. A good veteran coach, like, what you would communicate that right now, though, like, versus the mistake that the young trainer makes is maybe they program some of that in there. And then the client goes, he, this is boring. Can we do something else? And then the trainer, okay, versus me. At the very first time I meet with you, this is obviously veteran, older version, Right. So it's like, hey, we're going to do a handful of things and it's going to get boring. It's going to feel like this is redundant, this and that. But trust me, this is the most effective way to get to the place that you want to get to if you just trust me. So, like, learning to communicate that early on that you're going to feel bored sometimes with these workouts, because they're going to seem like, oh, it's the same stuff all the time. But that's how you get good at those things. And getting good those things is what's going to render the most results and that.

[Justin Andrews]

But, you know, you're saying this on a podcast, but the. I mean, when you're with a list, here's the deal. If a workout, If a client thinks a workout is boring because the trainer's boring.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, you're a boring person.

[Justin Andrews]

It's the train.

[Adam Schaefer]

We're your personality.

[Justin Andrews]

Listen, I had clients for me for 12 years.

[Adam Schaefer]

I know.

[Justin Andrews]

Never missed. Do you think that they needed me to take them through? Some of these people were, like, really old, so they couldn't do many other extra many, too many exercises. Do you think that they were showing up not knowing what's the new surprise? You've been with me for 12 years. You know what we're probably going to do. But you love being with me.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's totally true. I mean, there was like some overcoming that in the beginning, though, for sure, because, like, people come in with expectations. They see all the Fancy, you know, P90X workouts and things on TV and they're like, where's all this? It's like, no, this is what works. And then you literally have to just have conversations with them and be entertaining. And that's the job you have to do.

[Justin Andrews]

You know what it is? If you're a trainer and you don't want to be there, they're not going to be there. Want to be there. If you love. If you love what you're doing, I guarantee they won't feel bored. Yeah. And, you know, as far as the workout's concerned, like, do what's right and the person will be engaged with you. That's the most important thing. Next up is scheduling issues. I guess this is a real, A real concern. I guess AI is always available. So at any moment or time. I don't know how you would overcome this with a trainer. I guess if you like your trainer but he can't meet with you anymore, then I guess that's a thing. Yeah, yeah.

[Doug]

No, I mean, this is, this is a, this is a common. I mean, when you survey a bunch of people and say, what are the reasons why you quit? This would obviously come up there. I think we've all seen scheduling conflicts with clients before and it's, it's, it's a, it's part of the business. I don't know how much AI, like you said, AI is available 24 7.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

But I don't know if that's like,

[Justin Andrews]

if I don't know if it solves the problem because I hate saying this because this sounds very invalidating, but oftentimes not having enough time isn't really the issue. Now, I know some people have more time than others, obviously, but regardless of what your schedule looks like, in my experience, the people that are successful carve out however much time they can a window and stay consistent. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Even if it's just like a brief, like one or two days a week where you have to like that one little chunk.

[Justin Andrews]

I've never had anybody, even the, even

[Doug]

the busiest clients I've ever had that actually figured this piece out would tell you they gained all that time back. And so of course, so that the, the, the hurdle is when you are that person. Kids work, you got a, you got a ton of stuff on your plate that it doesn't seem feasible to me. I know what, that. I understand that feeling totally. But the reality is if you find a way to make two to three hours out of the week where that's broken up or in, you know, one or two days or whatever, but find that time to carve that out for yourself, and then you become consistent with that. What you'll find is you'll get every bit of that time. What. And I think, I don't know productivity. I think the studies say like four times that back. Something ridiculous. Yeah. And so what you thought you lost, you actually gained because of productivity. And so. But you first have to take that leap of figuring.

[Justin Andrews]

I'll also say this. When it comes to scheduling and time, the least successful strategy with not saying that you can't be successful this way, it's just really rare. The least successful strategy with schedule is to do this. I'll work out whenever I find time. And then you just go about your week. That almost never works. I've seen it work. I think once with people have a home gym behind. We're very dedicated. Like that doesn't work. What typically works is you, you carve out a little bit of time, whatever that looks like 20 minutes once a week, I don't care. And then you make it happen. So that, that's what I think the solution is with that one. And then lastly, this one's crazy to me. And this is definitely falls on the trainer. But the last reason. You guys want to know what the last reason is?

[Doug]

Let's see here. We got two sugar.

[Justin Andrews]

This is the last number six. The trainer doesn't practice what they preach. Yes. Now this is the trainer's fault. And I don't mean it's because the trainer isn't perfect, but the trainer presented themselves as perfect. That's your fault. Dude.

[Adam Schaefer]

You need to tell chastising them. And then they see him at Burger King.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, dude, you got to be real. First of all, it'll make you a more effective trainer. Like the wor. The least. Most. The most effective trainers are the ones that clients think are like real people that also struggle with diet. Sometimes it also, you know, or challenge with. That's the most effective. But if you present yourself as like this perfect fitness God and then you hammer your client for every little mistake, there's no grace, which is a terrible strategy. The second they see you slip up, they're like, screw you, I'm out of here.

[Doug]

Do you think it's more of that or do you think these are people that are judging the trainer because the trainer is not as fit as they. They would want?

[Justin Andrews]

This is people canceling their training. So they hired him in the first place for a reason. So I don't think it's. I don't think it's that. But I mean if we go on that path. Yeah. If you look really at it.

[Doug]

Because maybe that's how. Because imagine you hire somebody and maybe they're not the most jacked.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Greek God looking trainer. But they're like, they look like they're semi fit. But then you start training with them and you realize, oh my God, they eat like crap and this. And then it's like. And then you're like, okay, I'm not. So you think it's more the trainer presenting themselves.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, I think that's Only a problem if the trainer hammers the client for every little mistake they make, hides the fact that they struggle and then the client finds out. I think if you're honest, especially if you struggle. Look, there's people who really struggle with weight. And if they hire a trainer who also struggled with weight, who now maybe has lost a lot of weight, but tells them, I still struggle with this, man, this is just like, hey, I know you screwed up last night. Listen, I screwed up last week. I know this is really hard. That is a very powerful effect. An effective relationship building strategy. It works. Builds trust. But you sell yourself as something you're not and then your client kind of finds out, then you're. And you shame them on top of it, they're not going to want to work with you. It's just not going to happen. So. And I. I don't know how AI works around that. I guess what AI is. What do they look like? How do we fix that?

[Doug]

So yeah, I mean I think we're finding more and more. I mean AI is going to be this incredible tool for a lot of reasons, but there's a lot of things that I don't think it's going to replace. I mean we all agreed no professions that.

[Justin Andrews]

That require human connection. It won't. It won't. No, no, no.

[Doug]

It'll be a poor substitute.

[Adam Schaefer]

Poor.

[Doug]

It'll be really poor.

[Justin Andrews]

The day that AI replaces humans for human connection, we have way bigger problems than.

[Doug]

Sure.

[Justin Andrews]

Not having jobs.

[Doug]

Sure.

[Justin Andrews]

Way bigger problems at that point.

[Doug]

Hey, you. You referenced P90X.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Did you see? Huh? They're reviving that.

[Adam Schaefer]

No, they're not.

[Doug]

Yes they are. Doug. Google.

[Adam Schaefer]

Google P90X like health problems right there for a minute.

[Doug]

So I don't know who they're. They're using a different model guy. Yeah. It's a. And I. And. But I just saw this. That P90X revival. Wow. See what it.

[Adam Schaefer]

See what comes by straight make a comeback.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Wow.

[Doug]

Get marketed by a mind pump.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, I know. I like that was the first thing that came up.

[Doug]

I like that.

[Justin Andrews]

I already bought everything.

[Sal Destefano]

So it's called P90X Gener Next.

[Doug]

Oh. So it launched on February 3rd. I didn't even know that.

[Sal Destefano]

See, see.

[Doug]

Show me the. Show me the image.

[Justin Andrews]

Hold.

[Doug]

Here we go. Here we go. Just if interesting. They brought they. They're going to be able to revive this, huh?

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I mean it sold a lot.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

It's.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's a n. Yeah. It's a household name because of all money they put in.

[Doug]

Maybe That. I mean, is that true? That maybe they. They sold so many millions of copies that even the, you know, hundreds of thousands of people that have moved on and like, this beachbody is. Is whack is going. There's.

[Justin Andrews]

There's still hundreds.

[Adam Schaefer]

I wonder what.

[Doug]

There's still hundreds of thousands more that will be like. I've been waiting for the new generation.

[Adam Schaefer]

They still got the flag in their garage.

[Justin Andrews]

Listen, I'm gonna just read. I'm just gonna read some of their training pillars. Let's hear. I want you guys just to be. Okay. Yes. All right.

[Doug]

All right.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm already reading them right now. Inside my body, I feel.

[Adam Schaefer]

Please do.

[Justin Andrews]

I feel bristling. Yeah. So there's. There's three core modalities. Training pillars. There's metabolic overload.

[Adam Schaefer]

Metabolic overload.

[Justin Andrews]

Strength and power moves with minimal rest to build muscle cardio. You won't build muscle doing that.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

There's neuro performance. Neuro drills for coordination, reaction time and speed.

[Doug]

More cardio. Keep going, Keep going.

[Justin Andrews]

Active recovery, purposeful mobility and flexibility. Moving while you're supposed to be resting.

[Doug]

More cardio.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, got it.

[Doug]

So our three.

[Adam Schaefer]

Where's the muscle confusion? That was, like, their whole thing. I want to be confused, you know?

[Doug]

You know what it is, is it's three modes of different cardio to confuse your muscle.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

30 to 45 minutes a day for seven days a week.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, my God.

[Doug]

Of an intense training.

[Justin Andrews]

Whoa.

[Adam Schaefer]

45. Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you guys.

[Doug]

What are they. What are they selling it for? Can we. Can we look up how. What's the pitch?

[Sal Destefano]

Let's see here, you guys.

[Justin Andrews]

I started this new program. I'm losing weight. It's crazy. Really? What are you going crazy? Seven days a week.

[Adam Schaefer]

Seven days a week.

[Sal Destefano]

Only 10 bucks a month. 9.99.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, it's monthly. You got to pay monthly.

[Doug]

145 workouts total.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Doug]

Holy moly, That's a lot of workouts.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, they got seven days to fill, so. Yeah, they gotta be.

[Doug]

I mean, talk about. I mean, a great transition from our conversation. We're just having, you know, talk about, you know, just doing a bunch of creative for your clients, you know, saying, put together 145.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

I'll tell you, this. AI is better than that. Yeah, it's on.

[Adam Schaefer]

I think it's on par.

[Justin Andrews]

AI. Well, it's better. It's cheaper. AI is free.

[Doug]

I mean, they might have used AI to build.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's what I mean. She's run by AI you can go

[Justin Andrews]

on your AI right now and be like, I want a 30 to 45 minute non stop moving workout for 145 days. Yeah. Different workouts every day. Fun, free. Just say, hey everybody, I just saved you. Yeah, you know, 50 bucks or whatever.

[Adam Schaefer]

Hardcore yoga, just throw that in there.

[Doug]

You know the hardest part about the biggest challenge for the consumer because I think AI could be a great tool. I use AI all the time. We use it within the business is the prompting piece. Because if you don't know how to prompt it correctly for you as a client. Yeah. What to ask it, that's the part that would be challenging. Okay. So both my brother in laws were using AI for this stuff and when they show me what they had, I was like, okay, that's pretty decent. So good generic workout and kind of plan for you. But like when I sat down with them, like we spent like an hour on the, on the phone talking and it was just like I'm asking all these questions and then I go, okay, this is where I want you to start this, want you to do. And here's the things I want you to focus on. And don't do this and don't do that. And he's just like, what? That's all like different. It's like, well, yeah, because, because you told me this.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And then you told me that. Right. So I know I, if I knew all that information about him ahead of time, I could then go to a prompt to go, hey, spit me off. A workout based off of somebody who has this issue, has only been training for this long, can only do this. Is eating this meat. Like if I knew, if I was prompting the AI, I could have gave him a better setup than what he got. But since he as a consumer doesn't know better, he just goes, I want to get in shape. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

If you have a coach brain that can ask.

[Doug]

That's what I mean. So that's the problem here is that like someone's going to make the argument that, oh, you can totally. I'm sure we have a listener who's a trainer. Our coach is like, oh, I definitely think you can use it. It's like, yeah, that's your trainer brain that knows how to prompt it. And so that. But the problem's going to be people won't know. You know, they don't know what they don't know.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Doug]

So they don't know what to ask.

[Justin Andrews]

I have a good example of that. Dude. Yeah, it's kind of, it's related.

[Adam Schaefer]

But even then they're like, oh, do you feel like you can Keep going, keep going. Yeah, that's AI, dude.

[Justin Andrews]

I had. I. My cousin. This was last. This was months ago. He had these. This really weird, like, back pain. His back was hurting and his shoulder was hurting. He was. So he's in so much like. Like, upper mid back pain, low back pain, shoulder pain. He had to stop training Jiu jitsu. Couldn't figure out what's going on. Went to the doctor, like, oh, maybe you got injured while you were training. And it was just. This was like, two months of just so much pain. He had to take, like, medication to sleep and was doing massage and went to the chiropractor. And the doctors were like, must be your training. Maybe you need a time off. Maybe you got an injury. They did imaging, couldn't figure out what was going on. So he came and was telling me about this. And this goes to your point about knowing what to ask?

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So him and I are talking, and. And I'm just randomly. I'm thinking to myself, I'm like, wait, didn't you say a couple months ago your kids had, like, this random fever and then they had kind of like a little rash? And he goes, yeah. And I'm like, I wonder if any of those childhood diseases. Because there's these diseases that kids get that we become immune to when we get them, and then we're adults, we don't get them anymore. But sometimes you never get it.

[Doug]

You never got it. And so you box as an example, you get it really bad as an

[Justin Andrews]

adult, and it's different symptoms.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So I said, what did your kids have? And so I started asking him questions. I'm like, bro, I think. And I said, didn't you get kind of sick? He's like, yeah, it was mild. So I looked it up, and I said, I think this is what you got. And I looked up the symptoms of what it is for an adult, and it looks like severe arthritis throughout your whole body. And that was what it was. He brought to the doctor, and the doctor's like, oh, yeah. But had we not know what to ask? This poor guy was freaking out. He's like, am I dying?

[Doug]

Oh, wow.

[Justin Andrews]

He's very active, fit guy.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. But nobody knew what to ask. There was no. He didn't know. He didn't know the two could be connected. It's like he went to the doctor, said, hey, I've got all this back pain. He does jujitsu, and he works out. That's what he thinks is going on.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

He doesn't think, oh, yeah. My kids had a fever.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Do you think there's a connection?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You know, so it's like, if you don't know what to ask or what to connect, your information is only going to be as good as, you know.

[Doug]

That's exactly right. That I think that's going to be the biggest hurdle with people that are trying to use it is that they won't know what to ask it or prompt it. And it's going to be tough and it's going to require a good coach or to a trainer to do that, you know. So I got to tell you guys

[Justin Andrews]

about my daughter, my 3 year old. I almost filmed that. I didn't, because if she sees me filming this, it won't be good. But she threw this. She's so dramatic, dude. She threw this just the most. So she's been having these, like, little tantrums with, with Jessica, and I haven't seen the big ones yet. So, you know, praise God. He's been, you know, saving me from these. But I haven't seen any of them yet. But I've seen some of the. Some. I've gotten a little taste of just the drama that happens. And so with toddlers, they call them terrible twos. Threes. You talk to any parent, threes and fours can sometimes be worse. And so she's in the stage now where she's like, defiant and like, you could try to discipline her and she'll just one up you. Like, you could, you could even be like, look, if you don't do. If you. If you don't stop doing that thing, I'm gonna throw away your toy. She'll take the toy and throw it away herself and then continue. Like, she'll one up you. And you're like, what do I do? Anyway, we were all hanging out and it was just me and the two little ones. And I'm like, hey, guys. All right, let's clean up the playroom. And then we get to. We'll watch this movie. And so they're all excited. So they all did that. And then there was one. One toy, little toy that was on the floor in the hallway 10ft from her room. And it was her toy. So they're all done. Everybody's happy. High fives. I'm like, oh, hey, Dalia, one more toy. Get that and put it in your room. No, I don't want. I said, it's one. It's one toy. Just pick it up. I said, honey, we're not going to watch. We're not going to do the thing. Unless you pick that up and bring it to your room. She gets on the floor, she grabs it, and army crawls so slowly to her room while going like, she's in pain, bro. It takes her 15 minutes. Goes in a room, and then she army crawls back on her back. So she's sliding back on her back, ah, flopping around the whole time. I'm like, wow, dude, this is amazing right now. It was like 20 minutes, dude.

[Doug]

Jessica let you know, like, on a scale of 1 to 10, what that is rated to what she see.

[Justin Andrews]

I know that she's like, honey, that's like a three.

[Doug]

Just so you know for sure. She's like, that's a 3. You haven't seen a 9 or a 10 yet.

[Justin Andrews]

She sees so much. Like my older daughter. My older daughter was little, she would throw these tantrums. I remember thinking, like, there was one time I had to get her in her car seat and she wouldn't get in her car seat. And she was three maybe. And she would stiffen her body so I couldn't get her in the seat.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So I had to, like, physically use my strength to, like, push her in there and lock it in. And she freaked out so much. She took her shoe off, she threw it at her mom. And I remember thinking to myself, like, if we had a way to capture this energy, this would be like, we could power.

[Doug]

Power cities, dude, so much.

[Adam Schaefer]

I had that same thing, like Everett, it was totally different because you think like, the car is. That's your safe haven. That's like where you. You drive around the block and they're gonna go to sleep and everything's gonna be great.

[Justin Andrews]

And.

[Adam Schaefer]

And every time we'd go to put him in, it was like, you're putting him in a straight jacket.

[Doug]

Do. Some kids are like that. Some kids love it, some kids hate it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Swinging at me, screaming. I'm like, oh, my God. It was just. The car seat is just like. He did not like to be confined.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

I was like, we can't go anywhere. Like, we're never going to go anywhere.

[Doug]

It's so wild how some kids are so opposite like that. Like, some kids are just like, resistant to that. And then other kids like, oh, go to sleep. Yeah, that's.

[Justin Andrews]

That's Max.

[Doug]

Max can be in one of the loud cars, dude.

[Adam Schaefer]

Ye. Yeah.

[Doug]

See, like, I'm like. I'm like, oh, my God, dude. How's that? Yeah. Top is down, engines roaring. And he's just like this, like.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

I just cannot figure it out, dude. I do remember though, when he was a baby. So when we, when we lived over by the coast and he. I what? I would, I would take him for nap time. It. I would just throw him in the car, in the car seat and we would just cruise one and just drive along the coast. Yeah. And play music and just.

[Justin Andrews]

You get to go on a drive?

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah, I get to go on a drive. And he'd fall asleep. So we've been doing that since he was a baby. So I wonder if it has something to do with that. That from. From infancy, you know, I'd put him in that car seat and we would just drive for nap time.

[Justin Andrews]

I was just talking with Aurelius yesterday. I don't know where this came up. And he goes, is it true that when you were little you guys didn't have car seats? And I'm so, I'm explaining to him the whole thing. I'm like, no, we didn't have any car seats. He's like, where did you sit? I said, every. Anywhere we wanted. You sat in the front. I sat on my mom's lap. I sit on the dashboard. I was like, we crawl around the back and play. He's like, the police didn't stop you. I'm like, there was no laws. And then he goes, there were no laws. There were laws. He's like, didn't they care about kids? I said, I mean, they did, but they just.

[Adam Schaefer]

Different energies.

[Doug]

Katrina gets so mad. I let Max ride in the front seat all the time. Katrina gets so mad. You're not supposed to do that. I'm like, dude, he's freaking. He's almost five foot already. Relax. His legs are dangling off this. Off. He's in a. He's in a booster seat and his legs are still almost touching the ground. I'm like, this is ridiculous. I've been sitting in the front seat like years before that. Dude, he's fine. He's going to be totally fine.

[Adam Schaefer]

I know, like wearing helmets, riding bicycles, you know, it's like I. I'm like hammering the kids about just because, you know, Courtney's like freaks out about it. And I'm like thinking like, I never wore helmet. Never, ever, ever.

[Justin Andrews]

If you were a kid.

[Doug]

I never wore a helmet.

[Adam Schaefer]

Never wore a helmet.

[Justin Andrews]

If you wore a helmet in the 80s or 90s, you were 100. Going to get bullied. Yeah. Yes. For sure. Everybody. Why are you wearing.

[Doug]

Yeah. If you rolled up like, cuz. We all used to meet as kids. We all met after like school. All the Bikes from all the neighborhood. If you were the kid that rolled up, the one kid I don't remember.

[Adam Schaefer]

What's up, safety. Mushroom head?

[Justin Andrews]

When I used to go to work with my dad, he. In his work van, he had this old work van. Yeah. And it was a two seater because the back was all open.

[Doug]

They fill it up, sit on one of those crates.

[Justin Andrews]

They used to fill it with sand or, you know, materials. And he would have his helper and I'd sit in the middle. He made a wooden box and that's what I'd sit on.

[Doug]

Yeah. I've said I've crates before.

[Justin Andrews]

Did you? Yeah, yeah. And then, I don't know what my dad was thinking. He's like, I'm gonna make this more safe. He gave me a little rope that I would put over.

[Doug]

Like a bungee cord. Like a bungee cord over your lap, dude.

[Adam Schaefer]

I've told before, but we'd usually. Dude, we just sit in the back of my dad's pickup truck with the gas. The gas tank was right here.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Maybe that's why I'm buffering all the time.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm going to start tripping the football trauma.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's not the football.

[Doug]

Ghastly, dude.

[Justin Andrews]

My dad, well, my dad, it was even worse than his job, especially because he was poor. He was operating heavy machinery when he was 13. He tells me a story of how he drove a cement truck up into the hills and he'd have to put it in first gear to make it. And he's telling me the story of how the road is so narrow.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That he had. He had his buddy hanging out the side looking down to make sure that they didn't fall off the cliff. And they're going up. And they're going up like five miles an hour.

[Adam Schaefer]

Ten miles an hour, bro.

[Justin Andrews]

As he's telling me the story, I'm like, that's terrifying. This and that. And then I'm like, I just thought to myself, you should ask him how old he was. I'm like, how old were you when you're doing that? He's like, oh, no. 13, 12. Oh, my God. That was what you were doing. Dude, that's crazy.

[Doug]

That is crazy.

[Justin Andrews]

That's wild. I know, I know. That's a good time. Anyway, I want to ask you about. You were saying off air, how you've been using. Well, I'll just, I'll prompt you, honey. On your ribs.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

What are you doing?

[Doug]

Yeah, so I use the Monacoara on there now, so. Or the Monaco. Did I Say it right. Monacora.

[Sal Destefano]

Monacora.

[Doug]

That's Monicora. Yeah, I use the Monacora honey on there.

[Justin Andrews]

Is it better than just your regular old.

[Doug]

I do like the taste of it, so I've grown to really like it. I've also used it when I. We were. Since the last time we talked about them, I had gotten sick and so I was taking like I noticed the difference. Yeah. I make a hot toddy and I use it inside there. So that, that's been like my go to move. But for my ribs, I'll make my ribs where I. I do the first three hour smoke and then after. In fact, I'm doing it today. Right. So I'll do a three hour smoke. I'll have Katrina, it's already prepped, so I've already seasoned it and everything. And then I'll tell her around 1 o', clock, hey, throw it in at 2:20. She'll put it in the smoker. You'll sit in there for three hours. And then I already have on the counter right now I set up so she. In case I don't make it home in time, she can just throw it on there. My foil. And then I have brown sugar. The Monaco or honey. And then butter and then the, the rack of ribs sit in that. And then you wrap it all up and then you put it back in. And then like just the juices and the honey.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean it's a, it's a medicinal, nutrition, nutritional kind of based honey. So like there's honey and then there's manukura.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Like this is. This stuff is like gold.

[Doug]

Well, you got me, you got me using it for the cold. I'd already been using it for things like this, but I didn't think about using it for the cold.

[Justin Andrews]

What's the ingredient? Okay. This is a compound in honey that has these incredible medicinal and health benefits. And the amount that's in monocora is significantly higher than we'll find in other.

[Doug]

Do we know what the comparison is? I know you've talked about it before.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. Doug's gonna pull it up right now, but it's significantly higher. You'd have to buy or take a lot more of the. Of another brand to get the same amount of the mgo. But MGO is anti. Antimicrobial.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

It's got anti inflammatory benefits. It's pro gut health. And this particular type of honey that they make, that they get, I should say is the highest percentage of MGO versus the other ones.

[Doug]

Oh, it even has. That's what the number 850 means on it.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Doug]

So there's the number on an 850 plus. And I've seen. There's other ones I've seen before that have number that aren't as high.

[Justin Andrews]

I think other ones are like, like 60 or something.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. They vary quite a bit. But this is Monaco is definitely some of the highest I've ever seen.

[Justin Andrews]

It's the highest. Yeah. You know what? It's good for that I think it's really good for.

[Doug]

So.

[Justin Andrews]

And this, we talked about this years ago, but this is important to talk about. When you look at people, when you look at populations with gut health issues, it's really interesting. There's this. There's this really strange. We know why, but when they first discovered this, they were like, this doesn't make any sense. You expect people with poor health, poor health habits who don't exercise to have gut health issues. And that is the case. That is the case. They have a higher percentage of gut health issues for people who eat like garbage, who smoke, who don't exercise. Right. But then on the other side of the spectrum, people who exercise a lot actually have a higher rate of gut health issues than people in the middle. And they couldn't figure out what was going on. Why is that the case? These are like really fit, hit athletic people. And it's because when you're training at that level, you do cause systemic inflammation and you're encouraged. And this isn't a bad thing, but this does increase the risk. You're encouraged to eat or take a protein shake or something like that right after you work out.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

When you're all inflamed at the same time. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Right. And so a lot of gut health issues can start. Many of them can start with inflammation. And when your gut is. Because your whole body's inflamed from a hard workout, you're including your gut. And when your gut is inflamed, the junctions, the tight junctions that seal your gut can become spaced out and can cause things to pass through. And so what you'll see is sometimes people develop food intolerances with the foods that they eat post workout. So it's like, I could always have dairy. Now I can't have dairy. Well, your shake is dairy. Or I could always eat eggs. Now I can't have eggs. Well, you eat eggs, you know, post workout. So monocora. Because post workout it's good to have a little carbohydrates with some protein. Monocora is good for your gut. It's anti inflammatory and could help with the maintaining of the. Of the junctions.

[Doug]

Oh, interesting.

[Justin Andrews]

So if you want some carbs, post workout honey, people have been using honey for a long time. Honey is a natural. Post workout carb athletes have been using that for a long time. Monukura would have some protective effects. So you would add that tablespoon or two of that with your shake. Now you've got your carbs and your protein.

[Doug]

Oh, smart.

[Justin Andrews]

And it's got some protective.

[Doug]

Oh, interesting. Yeah, that's actually a cool idea. Sweeten it up really nice.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, yeah. And it tastes, you know, it tastes really good.

[Doug]

Yeah. You brought up talking about my. My ribs and stuff like that. You know, butcher box has been. I still have yet to find anybody else that does ribs with that. I know Doug has done it. Have either one of you guys ordered their stuff? Have you used their ribs? Have you cooked?

[Justin Andrews]

I don't make ribs, but I've had yours and Doug's and I've had other people's ribs. And then. Was it at your house? Yeah, it was someone's house where they had.

[Adam Schaefer]

I know Courtney reached out for that recipe because we've been trying to get, get, get the butcher box version of it.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, it was, I think it was your house. We were all eating over there. And you had, had, you had the butcher box ribs and then you had bought extra another brand.

[Doug]

Oh, it might have been. Yeah. Because if I run out, I have to order something else. And if I'm cooking ribs for everybody, they don't taste.

[Justin Andrews]

They taste way better.

[Doug]

No, they way better not. They're nowhere near.

[Justin Andrews]

And it's because they're kind of pig, right?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, it's a heritage pork pig, which is a certain breed.

[Doug]

Oh, I thought it was what they feed on that.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, it could be that as well. Yeah, absolutely. No, I did ribs for a friend of mine and he could not stop eating them. He goes, why are these ribs so good?

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

And I mean, I told him it's the way I cooked them, but the truth was they were the butcher box ribs.

[Doug]

I mean, it takes both. I mean, you still got to be decent. You gotta know what you're doing and stuff like that. But it's. They're definitely. There's a huge difference. And we'll, Katrina and I will just. We'll eat a rack each and that's like dinner.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

Just sit down and eat a whole rack. So good. They are so good.

[Justin Andrews]

I also like their ground beef because I was over my parents house this weekend. They were barbecuing we had like a barbecue. So like burgers and sausages. That's what Italians do instead of hot dogs. And we were all eating them and my dad bought the Costco burger patties.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So it's just regular beef I don't like. I think when it comes to ground beef, I like the grass fed better. They just don't taste as greasy.

[Doug]

Oh, I, I, so with ground beef, I prefer that. I was just going to say some of my steaks. If I go to like a fancy

[Justin Andrews]

restaurant, if I get like a ribeye.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And then traditional's got that.

[Doug]

Then, then I'll, I'll, I'll prefer a grain.

[Justin Andrews]

But ground beef.

[Doug]

But ground beef, it's grass fed. Better grass fed because the other one's so oily. Too oily.

[Justin Andrews]

And it's so like 100.

[Doug]

I agree. So you see me, I make.

[Justin Andrews]

It doesn't taste as good.

[Doug]

I, I've been posting it almost every time. I've been prepping the, the, the ground beef and the mushrooms and onions and I've gotten a bunch of people dming me that have been, that have been doing that same exact recipe. And I prefer the butcher box ground beef. When I do that, for sure, it's, it's, otherwise it just gets too oily and then it sits at the bottom and it's not as good.

[Adam Schaefer]

So I like the, the breakfast sauce is super convenient. It's like a patty. And here's the thing. We're flying out of the house early in the morning now. The kids eating a lot more. So like especially Ethan, he'll eat like two of those patties and then like three eggs and then stuff it into like a sandwich and eats every teenage boy. Dude, dude, he's, he's getting huge. And so that just comes in the clutch. We've been, I mean, the last, you know, month or so, I've been using and going through just bags of those things.

[Justin Andrews]

I was just talking to my brother. So my brother's having a third kid. Did I tell you guys this? Do you know that?

[Doug]

Three.

[Justin Andrews]

I didn't get a third one coming.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, right on, boy.

[Justin Andrews]

We just found out it's another one. He's got three boys. Have three boys. And, and so my brother, when he was a wild house and he's a, he's a, he was. My brother's great. He's a great, he's a great father. I love seeing him with his kids. It warms my heart because he's such a good day, such a loving, engaged Good dad. But when he was little, my brother was. I don't know. Nuclear power, I guess he would say he was on fire all the time. Like, drove my mom crazy. Constantly running, constantly moving, constantly climbing, breaking things. It was just. It was. It was insanity. He has two boys that are just like him right now. So he's got two sons that are just. They're just like him, too. They're so. You can't get mad at them because they're so loving. They'll come up to you and they'll hug you, and if you pick them up, they'll cuddle with. You're just so loving. But you put them down and they're tearing my. You know, because I said we were having a barbecue yesterday. They're tearing my dad's tree down. They're throwing lemons. They're fighting. You know, they're wrestling with each other. You know, they're. They're. They're just nuts. They're just nuts, right? He's got two of them. He's gonna have a third one. And so I was just talking with them, dude. I'm like, bro, I'm like, first of all, God bless you. And his wife is so patient, too. So I'm like, like, you guys are the right people to have these kind of kids. I said, but also when those are teenage boys, because they're big kids. Funny. My niece was there, and she. She works at the kids club at a gym, and she's like, you know, I'm working with a lot of kids now, and I realize kids aren't supposed to be as big as your kids, because they're big old kids. They're big sons. They're big, big. They're like, my brother, the big, big dudes. So, man, when you're gonna have three teenage boys in your house, eat you

[Doug]

out of house, you're.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, dude. You're gonna have to. You better.

[Doug]

Is he.

[Justin Andrews]

You better make a lot of money.

[Doug]

Are they. Are they shutting it down? Are they gonna keep going? Is he trying to get a girl? Do you know?

[Justin Andrews]

I. Okay, so we'll have to wait a few years, because you know how it is when you first have a baby. I don't want to have anymore. Yeah, I would love to have. I would love to see him go for number four. I want a little niece so bad, dude. Yeah. So bad. But threes, especially if the third boy is like, the other two. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

[Doug]

I feel like three of any sex is a lot. Three girls, three boys, three of the Same sex. I feel like, like parents just need a little, a little bit of a whole house breakup. You know what I'm saying? Like, you just need a little, a little change of pace. Three of the same of anything is. Is just every parent I know that has three girls or three boys. It's just like, that's a lot. It's a lot to have three of the same sex.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, I could see three teenage girls. Obviously I'm being stereotypical, but I could see three teenage girls making you want to pull your hair out. But three young boys, that's a lot, dude. You know, especially active boys. You know, you've been around little, little active boys. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Don't buy anything expensive.

[Justin Andrews]

It's bro, he breaks stuff all his older one breaks stuff all the time.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah, he's get real durable furniture, you know, make sure you get the scratch proof floors and you know.

[Doug]

Hey, speaking of boys, aren't you on the side of the road with your boys car?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yes.

[Doug]

What happened to that? Did you see that?

[Justin Andrews]

No.

[Doug]

These guys got like. I heard from like three hours.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yes, three hours.

[Justin Andrews]

His new car broke down.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. So we were.

[Doug]

That sucks.

[Adam Schaefer]

And we were just taking it because. Well, it got smogged before and this was on like the seller to smog it. But it just like that window where we were like registering it, it had like expired. And so we're like, oh man. And so we have to go smog it ourselves. We go to smog it and it's like it was. The RPMs are going way too high and. And they're like running it I think for an hour or so, just like, you know, pressure testing it and whatnot. And they're like, you're gonna have to take this to us. You know, the, the mechanic to. To check it out. And so I was like, okay, I'll follow you. And I followed Courtney. It was driving it and I was following her like, and we're just taking the side roads and it was just like getting hotter and hotter. And she pulls over. I'm like, oh man.

[Justin Andrews]

It's.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's like it's heating up on us. And I'm like, well, let's just wait a while. And I'm like, you know, testing the engine blocks. You know, hot is. Oh, okay. It's not too bad. I'll get some coolant. Throw some coolant in there. You know, go a little bit further. And we went like maybe another mile. And then like she started getting a little bit of smoke coming through the vent. And like it was I'm like, dude, just stop. You know, like, we're just gonna park it here.

[Justin Andrews]

And she.

[Adam Schaefer]

She parked unfortunately, like, right where, like, in this neighborhood where you have to, like. It's not like there was a side of the road where you could park. It was, like, right in the middle of the road. And so everybody's, like, driving around us, and, like, it was. It, dude. We were there just kind of sitting on the. On the curb for looking at our phone, and we kept looking for updates, and it was like. It was an update. It was like, maybe 45 minutes. Like, oh, man, it's a long time. But, yeah, I guess we'll just wait 45 minutes and, you know, somebody would come out of their house.

[Doug]

You guys doing all right?

[Adam Schaefer]

We're like, yeah, we're doing okay. Like, really nice people, dude. Actually, like, made me, like, somewhat optimistic about people again. I was like, wow. Like, everybody in this neighborhood was super cool and nice and offering us drinks and things, and we're just, like, sitting there, and then we go look at the update again. It's like, two hours, and we're like, what? No way. It was, like, 15 minutes to two hours.

[Doug]

The window.

[Adam Schaefer]

And it just kept going, like, back and forth and, like, changing on us forever. And we're just kind of laughing about it because we were kind of held hostage, but there's really nothing we could do.

[Justin Andrews]

And.

[Adam Schaefer]

And, dude, it was. Man, it was brutal. We just kept waiting and people driving by, and this one guy comes out and, like, was talking to us for a bit, started walking around, and then he just, like, mind pump and then,

[Justin Andrews]

like, walks away, you know?

[Adam Schaefer]

I'm like. And Courtney's like. He just said, m. Like, what? I didn't catch that. And I'm like, why? Who does that? Like, who says, like, mind pump pieces out? Yeah, he was, like, all scared to talk to me.

[Doug]

Yeah, I'll get that, like, in the airport. I'll hear someone. Then I'll, like, turn around and look. I have no idea where it came from, but I'll hear it, you know, or someone does that when you go by. So.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Did I tell you guys the. The. The. When I got my vasectomy, how the. The one of the people in there.

[Doug]

Shut up.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, yeah, dude, that's a great place to get recognized.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, it's the worst. It's the worst, dude. You know. You know, I'm getting set up, and they're doing the thing.

[Adam Schaefer]

Cough, please.

[Justin Andrews]

Every white balls are in head.

[Doug]

Hey, you know, I know you, right? Everything's all hey, love your show. Hey, love your show. No, shoot.

[Justin Andrews]

It was after. It was afterwards. Everything was done. You know what I mean? I'm all set.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like, you gotta eat a lot of protein, am I right?

[Justin Andrews]

This is exactly how healthy. You know, I listened for a while. It's exactly how I pictured one day. No, after we were done. After we're done, the colon's healthy. They're giving you all the instructions. They're giving you all the instructions. You know, you gotta do this. I'm on my way out. Like, oh, by the way, really like your show? Yeah. At the end when I'm leaving, I'm like, I guess it's better.

[Doug]

I was say, that's probably better if they tell you me before. I'm like, oh, man, this is awkward now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Did you bring someone else in? Yeah, you know me too much.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, my God, that's funny.

[Doug]

So did you guys get. So you guys finally get it towed three hours later?

[Adam Schaefer]

Finally towed.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

So, yeah, we're finding out because, like, you know, it was the weekend, and so it's like we just had to, like, drop it off, like, right at the. The place in. In the Keys. And so we're gonna find out today since it's, you know, it was over the weekend what was wrong with it. But, yeah, I was just, like, revving. The thing is, like, we already drove it from LA all the way up or no problems. And the thing about old cars, like, it just kind of, like, comes out of nowhere, you know, So I. I'm just, like, remembering all these things again. Like, you kind of forget, like, how all the. The little nuances and. And stuff, like, happens with these old cars and, you know, it. It's so much fun, though, to drive with the manual stick shift. Oh, yeah, I forgot, like, how just involved you are, like, in just the feel of everything and the sounds and it's like, so much of a visceral experience as opposed. So just downshifting and revving, and I just found, like, a rad parking lot to really have, like, Ethan trying to open up and. And I was waiting for, like, a good rain so we could go hydroplane and figure that out. My dad did that with me, and

[Justin Andrews]

I was like, oh, you had a hand. That's a great idea.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, go hit it hard, you know, and. And fishtail a bit. But, like, be calm and, you know, slowly correct it and kind of slide through it and. Yeah, all that stuff, like, I'd rather him learn there than just, like, caught off guard.

[Doug]

So. No, of Course, I saw your daughter's park job, too.

[Justin Andrews]

That's a great.

[Doug]

But that was for real. That was for real.

[Justin Andrews]

She, like.

[Doug]

And didn't, like. Did she not say anything? And she just came in the house

[Justin Andrews]

and you just saw that I went for a walk.

[Doug]

You went for a walk?

[Adam Schaefer]

Obviously, she didn't have a passenger.

[Doug]

No, I mean, I'm trying to picture her.

[Justin Andrews]

You know what I sent to her?

[Doug]

What'd you say?

[Justin Andrews]

You guys know that. That gif where Homer Simpson goes, yeah.

[Doug]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

Like, this is you.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Doug]

She was half in the bush.

[Justin Andrews]

What are you doing?

[Doug]

Like, you can't tell me when she's parking. She doesn't hear.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm like, what are you doing, dude? She's doing, like.

[Doug]

I mean, do you just, like, hear all that?

[Justin Andrews]

You just.

[Doug]

No, I sent you out.

[Justin Andrews]

I took a picture of it, and I sent it in a group text with Jessica and my niece and her.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And I'm just. We're just teasing her, making fun of her about it. I'm like, dude, you're. You're gonna be that close to the bush

[Adam Schaefer]

between.

[Doug]

I was just picturing, like, if that was, like, how she was pulling in, then she just said, eff it. Get out and just leave it. Because I feel like you do that. You're like, oh, that's a little close. Back it back out. Redo it. She just said, nah, she's arrogant. I'm committed. I'm committed to parking in the bush.

[Justin Andrews]

I don't know, bro. I don't know what happened. I don't know what happened.

[Doug]

Oh, I would have died if I would have came out and saw that, dude. It was hilarious.

[Justin Andrews]

Element is an electrolyte powder you add to your water. It tastes great, but there's no artificial sweeteners, there's no sugar, and it has a thousand milligrams of sodium per serving. Here's the problem with most electrolyte powders. They don't have enough sodium. Sodium just sprinkle in enough sodium doesn't make a difference if you need electrolytes, if you'll benefit from electrolytes. If you sweat a lot when you work out or you work in the sun or you're on a low carb diet, you're going to want sodium a decent amount in your electrolyte powder. That's what makes the difference. An element has a thousand milligrams and it tastes great. And there's nothing in there that's artificial. Go check them out. Go to drinklementt.com mindpump now that link is going to get you a free sample pack of their most popular drink mix flavors with any purchase. Back to the show.

[Sal Destefano]

Our first caller is Nikki from Georgia.

[Justin Andrews]

Hi, Nikki.

[Doug]

How you doing, Nikki?

[Nikki]

Hey, how are you?

[Doug]

Good.

[Justin Andrews]

How can we help you?

[Kayla]

Good.

[Nikki]

So my son is 15 years old, and he's been having knee pain when he does barbell squats, but he does not have that knee pain when he does box squats.

[Hannah]

Squats.

[Nikki]

So he'll do 225 for reps with barbell squats, but he can do 315 with box squats and not have any pain. So I was wondering what could cause that issue.

[Doug]

His ankle mobility. Usually it's almost certainly that he. So the reason why it doesn't bother his knees is because he doesn't have to go down very deep with the box squats. And so he's got that support. He can sit back on it where he gets barbell squats. His ankles need the mobility for his knees to travel forward. And because he lacks a little bit of that ankle mobility, he feels a stress in his knees as his knees go to travel forward.

[Adam Schaefer]

That change of direction puts an excess amount of stress.

[Justin Andrews]

Yep.

[Adam Schaefer]

Too. So that box really helps to kind of. Well, let me slow that down.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Let me ask you some more questions, Nikki. Is the box squat as deep as his regular squat?

[Nikki]

Not quite. No.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. Of course not. So. So, yeah, So a number one, it's deeper. And then what Justin said, right, when you're going down and then you change directions, there's this fraction of a second in which the weight is actually generating more force, increases force than the weight itself because you need to change directions. Because now you're actually. You're not just lifting the weight. You're having to change the direction of the momentum.

[Nikki]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

And in that change of direction, which a box squat stops. So a box squat as I sit, I don't need to change. I don't need to stop the momentum. The box does that. And then I squat up. So even at the same distance, sometimes a box squat feels better on somebody's knees than a traditional squat because I'm not having to reduce or slow down or reverse change or change the direction of the momentum. So what happens is either the knees don't want to travel forward like Adam said, or because there's a little lack of ankle mobility, there's a little torsion on the knee. You might not even be able to see it. Right. But when there's ankle mobility issues, the feet want to do this they want to turn out.

[Nikki]

But let's think his knees come in just a little bit on both.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. So that's. So there it is.

[Adam Schaefer]

There's a compensation.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, It's a little bit of pain in the meniscus. Now, there's something else here that I want to address, if you don't mind, because I see your question. There's more to your question. You said that his doctor warned him that lifting too heavy would basically stunt his growth.

[Nikki]

Yeah. So he had his physical for football and. And he's 6:1 and he wants to get taller. And so the doctor was like, well, just be mindful that lifting heavy is going to make your bones grow out and not up. And I was like, really?

[Justin Andrews]

No, no, I never heard that before.

[Nikki]

And she's like, yeah. And so my son was like, mom, do I need to? Because she's like, so you should do

[Hannah]

higher reps, lower weight.

[Nikki]

And I was like, I don't think that's a thing.

[Justin Andrews]

No. So let me address this right now, Nikki. As long as you're going to grow out, not up, so there's some truth to it, but I'll explain what's going on. Well, this is what's going on. At his age, you. He's not done growing. Right. He's 15.

[Nikki]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

And there are growth plates that if they become damaged, will limit the growth of the bone. Yeah.

[Doug]

If he hurts himself.

[Justin Andrews]

Right. And so the fear is with too much tension on the growth plates, they'll cause damage and then stop the growth. Now, here's why that's almost always not a problem. The amount of tension required to cause damage to a growth plate is incredibly high.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Excessive amount.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay, now here's, here's. This is a unique situation, though, Nikki, because I'm going to just talk a little bit about your kid. He's 15 and he can squat 315 on a box and he can rep out 225.

[Doug]

He's strong, dude.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, he's. He's actually one of the strongest 15 year olds in the world. He's a very strong kid.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. If he's doing legit squats, he's really strong. You said he's six one. How much does he weigh?

[Nikki]

164.

[Justin Andrews]

He's crazy strong.

[Doug]

Yeah, he's strong.

[Justin Andrews]

So here's the deal. So what I'm gonna tell you as his mom, okay. Because he's still growing. And so what happens when you're still growing is you don't have as much time to acclimate to Your body, your body awareness. You ever, you're. Do you, you ever own a dog and you see it grow into a large puppy and it's like super awkward?

[Nikki]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

They just got to get used to their size. So this is your son right now at his age because he's going to keep growing and you know he'll probably grow in spurts. Like he'll grow three inches out of nowhere or whatever or he'll just gain all this muscle out of nowhere.

[Hannah]

Right.

[Justin Andrews]

And he's got a new body and so he has to acclimate to it. And so because your son is so strong at his age, I will encourage you. Now I don't think he's going to damage growth plates, but I will say this. I would be very mindful of pushing the weight only because your kid is hella strong.

[Doug]

He's already there. He doesn't need what. This is what I would do. I'm gonna give, I'm gonna have Doug give you prime pro and have him do work on his ankle mobility because that is absolutely going to serve him. So to have him do ankle mobility stuff, stuff all the time he can do, he can work on it every day, multiple times a day. If he improves his ankle mobility, that's going to help a lot. Then get, tell him get on Instagram and follow a page called Squat University. Their con, their content is 100 built around improving the squat. And what he should do instead of trying to go get his weight any higher than because he's already really strong would be to perfect his squat is get better at the squat so his knees aren't caving in his feet. So normally too if a kid's knees are caving in, his feet are probably flattening a little bit or his feet are turning out. So. So in Squat University talks all about this, about his foot placement, about where his knees are at and like just have him really dive into like perfecting the squat. Because if he just moves the weight, he's moving with a beautiful perfect squat, pain free. He will, he'll see great gains and improvement just from that.

[Justin Andrews]

It'll be better gains. In fact, I'm going to send you another program that I think will be very valuable for your kid which is symmetry symmet.

[Doug]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

I think because of his. Because here's what'll happen if I take a 15 year old playing football. I'm going to get him strong at squats and deadlifts and overhead presses. Now if I run into the 0.001% of 15 year olds who can squat 315 on a box. I'm going split stance.

[Adam Schaefer]

He's already strong. Yeah. Like to get him in a split stance is more applicable towards any sport. And so to reinforce that and get stronger there in multiple planes, it's like he built the foundation, he established that like he's, he's rock solid there. So now we got to kind of express it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yes. We actually want to put some brakes on that kind of load with those exercises and split stance exercises, unilateral exercises, that'll improve his performance as much, if not more at his strength and it'll reinforce his stability so that when he's 18, 19, 20, he's in college, he starts squatting again. He's squatting 500 pounds and he's got really good technique and no pain. Because what can happen at this age with that weight? Because here's what happens. There's always a risk of injury with exercise. The heavier the weight, the greater the risk of injury when you move outside of perfect. So like one degree outside of perfect. With 100, you know, if he had 90 pounds on his back and he was one degree outside of perfect, his risk of injury is not that high. £300 on a 15 year old's back. One degree outside of perfect. Risk of injury is kind of high. Right. So because this is such an exceptional case, I'm like, I'm gonna go unilateral pretty much all the time. He's gonna do split stance exercises. We're gonna focus on technique. If a weight feels light, I'm gonna make it feel heavier by slowing it down and by perfecting the technique, not by adding weight on the bar. Because again, he's one of the strongest. If he's doing genuine squats, he's one of the strongest 15 year olds in the nation. And so you want to be really smart about how he trains because you could develop. This kid will develop some incredible strength.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

So long as he's smart.

[Adam Schaefer]

We got to support that now and reinforce the joints.

[Doug]

Follow that squat University page, a ton of good information on there. It's completely dedicated to improving.

[Justin Andrews]

Does he have a strength train like a, like a personal trainer or coach?

[Nikki]

So I was training him and we were working out together and then it got to the point where it's not real cool to go to the gym with your mom. So then he is actually in. They do, it's like seventh period football. So it's one of the coaches that runs the workouts. So that was what my next question after this. So the workouts aren't the best. And he tells me, you know, what they do every day. And there's just, there's not a lot

[Kayla]

of structure to it.

[Nikki]

It's kind of random. It's like wherever you can find a station, go do this. So how would you. If I give them symmetry, like, and we do that, how do you do that around these workouts that they're doing?

[Justin Andrews]

Can you. Do you have a really.

[Adam Schaefer]

He bring the, he could bring the blueprints in with them.

[Justin Andrews]

I was just gonna say. Do you talk to the coach?

[Nikki]

Yeah, I can.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I'd say, hey, hey, coach, my son's got a little bit of knee pain. He's really strong. I talked to some, some, you know, strength and conditioning experts. They suggested that he do split stance exercises. So, you know, like lunges, Bulgarian split stance, squats and that kind of stuff. Stuff lateral, you know, lateral lunges. I think I want him to focus on this during strength training. And the coach, I'm sure is not going to care because he's trained a whole class. I'm sure he's totally fine with it.

[Nikki]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Hannah]

Perfect.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You got it.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Thank you so much.

[Justin Andrews]

All right, awesome. Keep in touch. Can't wait to hear about this kid.

[Adam Schaefer]

Stud.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, thanks.

[Doug]

All right.

[Justin Andrews]

You got it. Yeah. 99.999 of the time when someone's like, you're gonna stunt your growth at a 15 year old. I'm like, get out of here. Then you get that occasional listen, a 315 box squad, a 15 year old kid, 225 for reps. That's a strong ass kid at 160. He's a, he's a tall skinny kid.

[Doug]

He's light.

[Justin Andrews]

He's a tall skinny kid.

[Doug]

Yeah, he's not, he's not like. I thought she was gonna say like 280.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, 185 maybe.

[Doug]

Yeah, I thought he's gonna be a

[Justin Andrews]

big lineman, like a big heavy ass kid.

[Doug]

Yeah, those are like lineman numbers in high school.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And he's a fret, like a freshman, right?

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, that's a freshman. That's a. It's right.

[Doug]

Damn.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, dude.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Force.

[Justin Andrews]

So again, typically you 15 year olds, I'm like squat. Let's get you stronger squats. But dude, you're pushing that much weight at 100 and you're a tall skinny kid.

[Adam Schaefer]

No, we're gonna.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, we're gonna.

[Adam Schaefer]

I completely agree. Just split stance and like do the, the boil method from here.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, bro.

[Doug]

Yeah. At this point I Mean, at this point, you're right. I mean he could totally avoid bilateral squatting stuff for a year or two

[Justin Andrews]

and then come back all a high school.

[Adam Schaefer]

Seriously.

[Justin Andrews]

This is going to be a 600 pound squatting college kid is what he's going to be.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Our next caller is Mike from Ontario.

[Justin Andrews]

What's up Mike?

[Adam Schaefer]

What's happening?

[Mike]

Hey there fellas. Appreciate you taking the time to chat with me today. Much love from up here in Canada.

[Justin Andrews]

How can we help you?

[Mike]

All right, with respect to your time, I've consolidated this down the best way I can to point forms. So a little bit about me. I was an obese child and teenager. I was 5 foot and 260 at my worst. I got into boxing in high school competitively I did that, I did that for a couple of years. I got my first membership to a gym at 19 years old. So I just threw obsessive cardio. Like honestly I didn't really have any knowledge for lifting or I wasn't following any kind of programming, just like a ton of cardio. I got into running as well. I lost £100, so went down to 160ish. But it was really skinny fat. Like I always had like, you know, the, the ripped fat guy calves. But I, I, I was never really a, a defined muscular dude at all. My mid 20s I got my first coach and my first meal plan. He was a friend of mine who did physique competitions and stuff like that. Now his first protocol for me was like crank my calories up, like get, get me into like a reverse diet. I was really resilient to this. I'm like, no bro, I need to eat less to get abs and tale as old as time. So I've yo yo dieted a lot over the last 10 years but it was never out of control. Like I never got like to a point when it was like okay, I really gotta. And so I got married this past November I guess coming up on six months ago. And just after the wedding I weighed in at 2:15 and my, my body wasn't looking good. Like I sent, I sent Doug some current and pictures from around then. So we're, we're moving in the right direction. I started a pretty hard cut around then, went to 2,000 calories a day that looked like 160 protein, 65 fat, 180 carbs.

[Kayla]

Carbs.

[Mike]

I was lifting five days a week, 20 minutes daily of cardio. I've got a husky, so I walk her every day. And I work in a very successful high volume Cocktail bar. So when I'm at work, I'm moving a fair bit too. So the weight was dropping, strength was holding. I think my programming's pretty decent. I got down to 195ish. So I lost about 20 pounds that held for a couple of weeks. Readjusted, went down to 1900 calories and lost another 5 to 190 pounds. And it was a hard stall. Like, and like, I'd have, like, like my wife and I would order pizza for dinner and I'd go up a couple pounds. I'd hold on to that for three or four days and it just felt like a really hard stall. So I discovered you guys around the time I started this cut back in November. And I, I knew the advice would be to reverse diet, but I didn't know what that looked like. So I just cranked it overnight from 1900 to 2500. I went up to 201 protein, 84 fat and 239 carbs. Cut out cardio completely. And my strength completely took off. Like, I, I didn't realize how much my, like, the thing is, like, if I lift the same amount of reps as the week before, but I'm struggling a little bit more mentally, I'm still like, oh, I'm moving the same weight. I'm not losing strength, but. But there's a lot to be said for the amount of effort it takes to do that. So my strength completely took off. Every lift is up in that time. My body feels great. Sorry, there's a cat on the table now. Yeah. So my body's tightened up. I went down another pound or two. I've been sitting around there. I'm still in the gym five days a week. Feels like a good number for me. I like the ritual. It's good for me mentally. And yeah, it's. The weight is about leveled off. I feel like I'm kind of stalling again, albeit eating 600 more calories a day. I'm not hyper focused on the weight. I just track it for a data point. Like, it doesn't ruin my day if I'm a little up or it doesn't, you know, drastically skew where I'm gonna go if I'm a little bit down. But my question then lies into what this actually looks like, moving forward sustainably for me. So I want to be able to go out with my wife for a nice dinner. Like have a, have a glass of whiskey with dinner or something like that. Like, I'm not a, I'm not a Party. I'm not a drinker, but when I hear like, you know, you guys talk about in the long run, oh, like, you'll just, you'll have an easier time getting to, you know, these things won't affect you quite as much because your calories will be higher. I want to know what, like, the pathway to that looks like. But also, like, I'm still, I would guess probably mid to low 20s for body fat. Right now I'd like to be low to mid teens. So getting to that goal while still looking for the long term sustainability of having calories high and building muscle in the long term.

[Doug]

You're on the path.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You're doing the right thing.

[Doug]

You're on the path, bro. I mean, I'm looking at your original pictures in November, where you're at now, you're making. And keep in mind too, you're up 600 calories. Right. So you're so, the way you look and up 600 calories is phenomenal.

[Justin Andrews]

You drop body fat and built muscle. Yeah.

[Doug]

You're on a great path right now.

[Justin Andrews]

Think of it this way. This is the mentality that I want you to adopt that'll help you right now build into a leaner physique. Don't cut into a leaner physique. Now, five days a week of exercise, the amount of activity that you're doing, your weight, your calories are still low.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah. 2500 is still low. Yeah, absolutely.

[Mike]

Yeah. I'm, I'm gonna be 38 in a week, and I'm about 58 now. I, I still figure to be about, you know, the 12 to 14% range. And I'm not fixated on that number. I'm just figuring that's like, you know, probably a reasonable goal to shoot for.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, no, no, no, don't cut into that. So I'll just to encourage you, you bumped your calories and got leaner. Yeah.

[Kayla]

Yep.

[Justin Andrews]

That's going to happen for a little while, dude.

[Doug]

Yeah, it'll continue to happen. And, and you, you're back to your question about how do I get to a place where I can have a glass of whiskey with dinner with my wife on a Friday night or what like that and not feel like it's, you know, it affects me that where that is is, is higher calories. So when you get to a place kind of like where you are now, but you're eating 3,000 calories, so you put on even more muscle, you lean out a tiny bit more, but now you're eating 3,000 calories. Now you have this metabolic flexibility. Now if you really wanted to too, you could, could. You could cut for a short period of time to get down it real fast. But if you just keep going the path, you're going, like to Sal's point, you build into a leaner physique, you'll get the thing that you want where you have higher calories so you have more metabolic flexibility. And then you'll also be at such a high calorie. I mean, a great goal instead of a body fat percentage goal would be, can I not put any weight on the scale? Kind of hover where I'm at, but get my calories up to 3200, 3400 calories a day. Because if you, if you don't move on the scale much and just keep kind of do. You're kind of in that Goldilocks zone, which, by the way, is one of the best places to be, but also one of the most mentally challenging places, because sometimes not seeing the scale move also messes with people's heads a little bit. Like, am I seeing progress? I mean, it's very obvious when you look at the picture from November to now, you're making a great Progress. You're up 600 calories and you look radically different. You lost a lot of like, like go. If you just kept going down this path for six more months, I bet you you'll look back at that picture and go, oh, I'm look even better than that. And so you're in a great place. But Sal's right. Like, try and build into that leanness. Don't try and cut into that leanness. So I'd go up in calories. I also think too, like, I mean, I, I know you like the five days a week. I'd like to give you one of our programs because there's, I mean, there's, there's something about having somebody else program for you and following it. And I don't know if you've been kind of doing similar stuff as far as your training. I like, how have, do you change your training up? Does it look pretty similar? Like what, what's the split look like?

[Mike]

I was originally. I don't know, is it, is it bad decorum to say if I was using a different program?

[Doug]

No, no, it's okay.

[Mike]

So, like, you guys have mentioned Jeff Nipper in the past. He's a local guy to me, so I, I was following a program of his. Okay, it's five days, full body.

[Justin Andrews]

That's fine.

[Doug]

Oh, wow. Five days, full body.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, it's like heavy, light, you know.

[Doug]

Okay, so does he periodize, like, the. The like how you're. Is your lifting intensity change each day or what's it look like with a full body?

[Mike]

Well, it's be like the volume changes week to week. So some days or some weeks, like, you'll have one week where the rep range is like four to six, and you'll be like, aimed to hit, you know, two reps in reserve on that, and then the following week, It'll be like 14 to 16 reps and hit 2. So it's like, I imagine the volume will be fairly similar because when I'm doing 14 to 16, I'm using way lower weights, of course. But yeah, it's like one to two big lifts a day and then a lot of auxiliary stuff.

[Justin Andrews]

And that's every day. Day.

[Mike]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

All right. If you like it, you can keep doing it. I think if I put you on maps, anabolic. I think it probably serve you a little better. So I'll send it to you. You could decide to try it or not.

[Doug]

Let's do it.

[Mike]

Yeah, I would love to.

[Doug]

I'm.

[Mike]

I'm.

[Doug]

I'm.

[Mike]

I'm down to try something new and see what.

[Justin Andrews]

But you could easily. You could bump your calories 27 right now.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Mike]

You think that's the next day? If I'm at 25 tomorrow, go up to 27.

[Justin Andrews]

Look, look, now, now, this is give or take, right? So if I coached you through this process, then we would be able to be much more individualized. But generally speaking, with what you're saying, I'd eventually probably get you up to about 3200 calories.

[Doug]

Yeah. That's where I think.

[Mike]

Oh, that'd be a dream, dude. That's a pizza without the nightmare out there.

[Justin Andrews]

By the way, the two or three pounds you gain from the pizza is water.

[Mike]

Yeah, yeah, exactly that. And like I said, too, it's like when I see the scale go up, I'm like, yeah, this is waterway. This is like excess, whatever. And it goes away after a couple days. Like, I analyze it as a data point. Like, I'm not stewing on it.

[Doug]

Okay, good, good. No, you're bro. You're on the right path.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Go up 300 calories.

[Doug]

Keep.

[Justin Andrews]

Keep doing what you're doing or follow our program. You get. If you're getting stronger, you're building into getting leaner. Yeah. And keep moving in that direction. And once you get to a place where you're like, whoa, I'm eating a lot of food and I feel good. If you want to pull back and do a cut, you could go back down to 2500 and that'll be your cut.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Mike]

Amazing. That'd be the dream. Yeah, I'm. I'm excited to try out some of your programming as well. That'd be cool.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you gotta do.

[Doug]

Yeah, you'll do great, bro. You're doing. You're already doing great. Stay on this path.

[Mike]

Amazing. Well, I appreciate your time, guys. And I. I just like to say as well, like, my. My job is incredibly social. So when I'm. When I'm in the gym on a day off, like, just like having you guys in my ears, it just. It's this weird, like, parasocial thing. Like, I feel like I'm a fly on the wall for just conversations that are helpful and it's. It does something for me and I think for a lot of people. So. I appreciate that.

[Justin Andrews]

Thank you, man.

[Doug]

I appreciate that, Mike.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's cool.

[Justin Andrews]

Thank you, brother.

[Mike]

Amazing. Take care, guys.

[Justin Andrews]

Thanks. Yeah. What's great about his picture, first of all, he lost a lot of body fat.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

He built muscle and he lost a lot of body fat.

[Doug]

I mean, he. And he didn't move, and he didn't really move on the scale, which is like the Goldilocks.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Doug]

Yeah. Like, he did perfect. And he could. He could probably just hang around here, but he's got room to go up in calories, I think.

[Justin Andrews]

I think if he hangs around here, he'll still see some body comp change, but I think he'll see more body comp change with the bump. Bump in calories with average activity, what he's doing.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah, agreed.

[Justin Andrews]

And that's all. It's obvious because his body was holding on to body fat because his calories are so low.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

And he's seeing strength gains. He'll build. He'll build muscle. He'll continue to go down. And the other part that's important to hear is what he said is just like, you know, the guy wants balance. He wants to be able to have a glass of whiskey. Of course. And that will serve him going the direction you're saying, because he could cut from here if he really wanted just to lean out a little bit and go down to 2,000 calories. And he'll lean, he'll lose some. He'll lose some body fat.

[Justin Andrews]

But then he's stuck. Yeah.

[Doug]

Then he's stuck at a low calorie. He probably won't be happy where he's at, physique wise, it's like, no, keep building. Keep building to a place like 32, 3400 calories and then come back down to 27, 28. Be eating more than you've ever ate and leaner and stronger than you ever been.

[Sal Destefano]

Our next caller is Kayla from South Carolina.

[Justin Andrews]

Hi, Kayla.

[Adam Schaefer]

Hello. Good morning.

[Hannah]

Hey, guys. How are you?

[Adam Schaefer]

Good, good.

[Justin Andrews]

How you doing?

[Hannah]

Good. Thanks for having me back on. I will just read my question if that's okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, let's go.

[Hannah]

All right, so. Hi, guys. I'm writing with a question around reverse dieting, building muscle, and bmr. A little background for context. I have been on the show before. I'm a full time working mom of two. I have a 9 year old and a 1 year old and I also coach fitness on the side. So I've been consistently training myself for about six years. I'm currently still breastfeeding, though I am starting to wean a few years back. It was probably around 2022 before finding you guys. I was definitely under eating and over training. So when I came on the show at the end of 2023, I was still in that pattern to a lesser degree, but still there. And you guys had encouraged me to scale back my training and increase my calories, which I did shortly after I got pregnant, which was something that we were working toward for a long time. And I now have a healthy one year old as of March 15th. So since then, I have stayed fairly consistent with tracking. Of course, not perfectly through pregnancy and everything, but pretty consistent overall. And through pregnancy and breastfeeding, my appetite naturally increased. I've gradually brought my calories up to around 2,600 2700 per day. And I consider it somewhat of a controlled reverse or a mini bulk that I've been in. Really just kind of listening to my body and trying to fuel myself has been the goal without putting on too much fat. Postpartum, I've adjusted my training. I feel like I've built a solid amount of muscle. I'm getting stronger. I feel like I look leaner and more toned. And my weight is now around 127, 128. Pre pregnancy, I was about 131, but of course, my body has changed as well. I gained about 25 pounds during pregnancy. I've since lost that weight and then a few extra pounds, but have continued to rebuild the muscle. So here's where my question comes in. I had done a body scan in August and then again recently. And even though I feel Confident that I've built muscle and lost body fat. My BMR on those scans really hasn't changed much. I mean, I think it went up maybe 20 some calories. I recently was actually listening to one of your episodes, and I think you guys had said something, given somebody the advice of trying to increase that bmr. So that's kind of when this question came to mind. So it just kind of seemed confusing to me because my current maintenance is around 26, 2700 calories without weight gain. So my questions are, should BMR increase as you build muscle and improve your metabolism? How accurate are these scans? Just for context, my most recent one said my TDEE was around 2100. I believe it was. And then is real world maintenance intake a better indicator than the scan data? And when you talk about building your metabolism before a cut, is maintenance intake the more meaningful metric that I should be focusing on? Really?

[Kayla]

Just.

[Doug]

Yes, Sorry, go ahead. Yes. No. Yes. Yes. Okay, so BMR increase should. Yes, it should. Improve your metallic. It should, yes. But how accurate are those BMR things? Terrible.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Doug]

Terrible. Is world.

[Justin Andrews]

World.

[Doug]

Is real world maintenance intake a better indicator? Absolutely. I never. I never use any of the aura app dexa scan. It's never accurate to myself. It's never been accurate to my clients. And that's why I'm a big fan of, like, you telling me. And as a coach, trainer, and you're obviously track, you pay attention. You have a better idea of how many calories you maintain at and how many calories will increase you and how many calories it cut. You are. I can tell already, you know that. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Well, Kayla, let me ask you, like, I think, like, what do you think the answers were to these?

[Hannah]

So I think that your real world tracking is definitely the way to go. That's kind of what I've been doing with the clients who I'm working with. I don't. I tell them not to focus too much on what these numbers say, but in the gym setting that I'm working in right now, I don't know if it's the demographic, the age, or what it is, but people get so hung up on these numbers where my online clients, I feel like, like trust me to track. I'll have them track usually for 10 to 14 days, and then that's where I start their maintenance and go from there.

[Doug]

Way better when you have.

[Justin Andrews]

So here's the deal. Okay. You're tracking. You're eating 26, 2700 calories. You're not gaining any Weight. Correct. The machine says 1300. Yeah. You're going to gain weight at over 2,100 calories. Okay.

[Hannah]

Yes.

[Justin Andrews]

It's not happening. Right. You see the real evidence in front of you, right?

[Hannah]

Yeah, absolutely.

[Justin Andrews]

Obviously, it's a terrible estimate.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Also for the people in the gym, you have a wonderful testimony. You could show them, hey, listen, you know what mine says. And you show them your paper. Do you want to know what I ate yesterday? And then show them your tracking. And I'm not gaining any weight. It's. So to estimate somebody's metabolic rate off of those machines is terrible. There's only one way to accurately do it, and it's in the moment. And you got to wear a machine that you breathe into and you move, move, and it's measuring it in that moment. There's really no super accurate way to measure this incredibly complex thing known as metabolism.

[Doug]

Not to mention it's. It's a. It moves. It's not a. It's not a stationary number.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Doug]

A bad night of rest, over, stressed, you know, there's a whole host of things that will change that in a day, so. And that's why the tracking for a week or two weeks like you've done gives you a way better estimate than some sort of algorithm that's based off of your age, your sex, your weight, and your estimated movement. Like, that's just.

[Justin Andrews]

So what you doing with people by having them track for 10 to 14 days is exactly what we do.

[Doug]

Yep. Yeah.

[Nikki]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

That's how we coach our coaches. That's the only accurate number. There is no more accurate way.

[Adam Schaefer]

You'll get there.

[Justin Andrews]

There's no other way to do it in a more accurate way.

[Doug]

And the few people that are listening that go, well, mine matches just right. It's more by luck and chance that theirs match up perfect.

[Justin Andrews]

Good for you.

[Doug]

Broken clock is the right place. Yeah. Then you're the norm. Those BMR things are almost always way off for people, and I just don't even pay attention to them.

[Justin Andrews]

And when we reverse diet someone like you who's fit, who's strength training, who's doing it right, I'll crush whatever a BMR scan will say every. Like what you're saying, that's the norm. We'll reverse diet someone, and we'll be 5, 600, 800,000 calories above what their machine tells them they should be at. That happens all the time.

[Doug]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Okay.

[Nikki]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

We recently got an evil body scanner, and I think that because of that, it gives so much good data. But people are getting so hung up on those numbers.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Hannah]

Yeah. And they find it hard to believe that I eat as much as I do. And I'm trying to tell them, hey, I'm tracking. I track pretty religiously. I mean, I'm pretty disciplined. But I do allow myself some flexibility. But. Okay, Good to know. Just great to have that.

[Doug]

My favorite. So out of, out of the three of us, I'm probably the biggest nut when it comes to tracking data stuff. There's three things I, I, I, I use. And I like steps, so I like to see. So having some sort of step count. I like some sort of a sleep monitor to, To. To do my sleep score and then a consistent body fat test. That's it. And they're. And again, they're not end all, be alls. No, you're looking at trends, but they're. But they give me a really good indicator on trends of activity level, how well that person is probably sleeping. And probably their stress level is normally connected to that. That and then a body fat test that am I in the right heading, in the right direction or not? And none of them are end all be all. But they're like the three best data points, in my opinion, to con. To come together with a conclusion of are we moving in the right direction? Are we not moving in the right direction? All the other shit that's out there is, Is way too much noise, in my opinion.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. What you're trying to do with body fat tests is you're looking at trends. So after three of these measurements, what direction are we moving in? But there's really only a few objective measures that a coach can use. Strength. Strength is one of them. There's no room for error. You did 10 more pounds. That's real. You just lifted 10 more pounds. That's objective. I love strength. That's why I always point to strength. I love that. How do you feel? That's subjective. But if the person says they feel better, they have more energy, well, then it's. Then it's true. Body fat percentage. This is more of a trend thing. Don't get. But the way you set this up, Kayla, is when you do these scans with your clients, you got to let them know ahead of time.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Because what you don't want to do is come around the back of it, and then it sounds like you're trying to comfort them.

[Doug]

Exactly.

[Justin Andrews]

So what you want to do. Yeah. So, hey, that's right. Before I do the scan, here's what I want you to know. There's a, there's a. There's a margin of error with body fat percentage that's between 4 and 6%. So we're just looking at trends here. The r. The bmr, we're going to ignore that. That is, that is almost never accurate. The only real accurate way to measure is. Is I'm going to have you track for about 10 days and for, you know, here's an example. And then tell them about yourself. So we're going to ignore that number and we're just going to look at. So you got to let them know ahead of time. Otherwise, what happens as a coach is somebody comes out of it and they're disappointed. And then it sounds like you're trying

[Doug]

to, like, comfort them. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And then, and then they're like, do I believe you or not? Maybe they're just trying to make me feel better.

[Doug]

The best, the best coaches are coaches that do a good job from the jump forecasting, and that's everything. Like letting your clients know, like, hey, I expect that we're going to have some plateau weeks. I expect that we're going to see numbers like this. I. And so the more you can forecast for them of what's normal and that's okay. It's no big deal. Then this stuff isn't a big deal. And it's literally is reminding them like, this is for me, just so I know that the adjustments that I'm making are aligning with it. I don't want you to get hung up on the body fat test number. I don't want you to get hung up on the BMR number. This is just data points for me that I ca. I'm moving you in the right direction. And so, so forecasting that to Sal's point before they go in and do that is so huge versus waiting until they get it and then trying to answer their questions of. But why is this saying this? And why did we go up 1%? And then they start freaking out and then you're trying to backpedal and explain yourself versus saying, I don't even give a. If this says we went up 2%. I just want to see where it's at because that'll give me an indication of where I want to go from there.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right.

[Doug]

And so I use it like when I talk to my clients. That's how I communicate. Before we do any of this testing, it's like, it's not an end all, be all. It's just more data for me to know that I'M doing the right things with you.

[Hannah]

Okay, that sounds great. Thank you guys so much. That definitely helps. I think forecasting is definitely the way to go now with these new scans because people are getting very hung up on those numbers. So that's super helpful.

[Justin Andrews]

100%. Great job. Yep.

[Hannah]

Thank you, guys.

[Justin Andrews]

You got it. Yeah, it's if coaches know ahead of time how to use these tools and then explain how they're going to be used. Very valuable. Yes. If you don't do that well, the tools start to do the coaching and then everything's reactionary. Exactly. And then it's going to suck. You're in a bad place. Like, hey, but my body fat went up a percent. Well, it's okay. You're doing then you sound like you're

[Adam Schaefer]

just trying to make a damage control.

[Doug]

By the way, this is the type of stuff. I didn't mention it to Kayla, but this is the type of stuff that is in our course we teach. This is what we teach. This is the type of stuff that we teach. And I think this is the stuff that got all the best national certifications out there that go over, you know, human physiology, biomechanics, nutrition, you know, exercise science.

[Justin Andrews]

Coaching.

[Doug]

This is coaching. This is what will make a really good coach. You can have all those Certs degrees, all this stuff like that, but if you don't know how to do things like this with clients, that is the difference between you being a good and a great coach.

[Sal Destefano]

Our next callers are Hannah and Tyler from Ohio.

[Justin Andrews]

Hey, what's up guys?

[Adam Schaefer]

What's happening, guys?

[Kayla]

I'm gonna go ahead and read off here so I don't forget anything and I hopefully remember how to talk this whole time. I'm so excited to see you guys. Like, I kind of can't believe this is real life. So I just wanted to take to thank you for taking my call and for the information you put out. You have shifted the way that I view health and fitness and I have exclusively been running your program since 2019 and don't see myself changing that anytime soon. I'm a 37 year old female mom of a 2 and 4 year old. I've been working with a functional health practitioner for the past year due to low testosterone and honestly, this is the best I've felt since before having kids. My energy levels are a lot better, more constant and consistent, and I don't have the energy crashes and significant fatigue that I was having before. I usually sit around 122 to 124 pounds prior to having kids and that was what my weight was also prior to working with this functional health practitioner. So I got down to my pre baby weight and I would estimate I was around 20 to 22% body fat. I'm 5 4, currently 130 to 132 pounds depending on the day. I just hit a PR deadlifting at 225 and it was one of those ego things where I felt like I could do more but I didn't want to injure myself. I'm a pt so I try to like live the way I teach people. Anyway, I just did a body scan at my gym and it estimated that I had 24% body fat, which feels about right to me with how my clothes fit and what I look like. So I know this is still a healthy range, but I'm having a hard time psychologically with this as I work out very consistently. Focus on protein and cycle through your programs pretty religiously at this higher weight and body fat. I feel like I look soft and my definition doesn't show unless I am flexing hard. And I'm a physical therapist and a former D1 athlete and have been told a perfectionist at times. But I really want to let go of that mentality and listening to your podcast over the past five to six years has helped me significantly with it, to the point where I'm hoping to help coach people through this at some point and potentially even go into training or functional health in the next five years. However, I'm just really struggling to know if this new weight and size is just a healthier place for my body to be at this point in my life or if I can try to get back to where I was previously, where I felt more athletic and confident and actually fit into my clothes. I know it doesn't seem like a huge difference, but with this size and weight, I basically need to buy all new pants because none of my pre baby stuff fits anymore. Any help or guidance is appreciated. I'm currently running Maps Performance and prior to that I ran Maps Strong, which I loved. And that's where I hit my PR deadlifting.

[Justin Andrews]

Hey, great question. And I love that your husband's here for support because I can see his face while you're talking.

[Doug]

Yeah, I have a feeling he's waiting for us to say what he's been saying.

[Justin Andrews]

I'm reading his mind right now and I'm gonna guess what you're thinking, but he's like, you're kicking ass, honey. Such a good job. Like, you're so hard on yourself. Yeah, so here's the deal.

[Doug]

It's the athlete and you kicking it.

[Justin Andrews]

You are. You. Listen, you're killing it. Yeah. You're doing really well. Your body fat percentage, very healthy. You're super strong. 225 at your size is really, really good. And you probably could have lifted more, but you want to be really good with your technique. And you just had two babies, by the way, in your. In your email, both C section.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And your last pregnancy was rough. It says you had. You were. You were nauseous the entire time. Really, really bad.

[Nikki]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Okay. And you had two kids within three years.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And how old is your youngest?

[Kayla]

Two. He's two and a half, technically.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Listen, you're. You're doing. Wait, you're being way too hard on yourself. Yeah. Here's my advice for you. You.

[Nikki]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Buy new clothes. Okay. Stop worrying about it. Buy new clothes. Also, you're going to continue to see your body progress.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You. You just got out of.

[Doug]

Yeah. You're. You're only. You're just now getting in the good spot. Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

It takes. So I've trained a lot of women pre, during, and post babies. Okay. And I. I really hate the fitness space for how it communicates to women. Postpartum, they get this idea that eight months postpartum, like, you're back in shape and I'm. I'm back to my old size. Whatever. That's crap. Every woman I've ever trained who was disciplined and, you know, even an athlete like you, I've trained a few that were athletes in college.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

It takes, like, two years before you actually start to feel like yourself. You know exactly what I'm talking about. Yeah. So. And you still got a little. You got little guys at home, so it's still, like, hectic sleep can still be a bit off. Like, you're. Yeah. You're being way hard on yourself. On. If you just stay the course.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Stop judging yourself so harshly. Go and buy some new clothes right now. You're gonna keep. Your body's gonna keep progressing on its own, but if you. If you beat yourself up, if you let that happen, you're gonna set yourself back.

[Doug]

I'm gonna tell you, too, something that I feel like has been the theme of the calls today that we've been telling people, too, is you're far better off trying to build into the body that you want than thinking about trying to cut into the body you want to.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

Which is a tendency that everybody seems to want to have. Like, the fact that you're you're hitting PRs right now is just like, lean into that, keep getting stronger, keep building muscle. And don't try and cut because you feel like, oh, I could lose a little bit or I want to lean out a little bit. Like, you're just now getting in this good place, your body is starting to respond where you're hitting PRs, like, lean into that and get stronger and you're gonna, you're gonna be happy in six, six months from now, you're gonna look back and go like, oh, like build,

[Justin Andrews]

build what you want. Don't cut. Cut into what you want. So if you, if you just kind of like keep building, you know, slow. Reverse diet. Feed the body, feed your hormones, feed the muscle. You're probably going to get down. If you're walking around 24% right now and you got a two and a four year old and you're lifting weights and everything that I read here, you'll probably settle around 21% just by building into it.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Without trying to cut.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Just by being, having fun with your workouts, enjoying yourself, eating, feeding the muscle, you'll probably fall somewhere around 21, 22%. With good shape, good muscle, good strength, the whole deal. Good hormone profile. The whole deal.

[Doug]

Yeah. How long have you been working with the functional medicine practitioner?

[Kayla]

About a year. And when I started, I had, I think my. What's like, mind blowing to me right now is like, you always, you want to be lean. I don't in the fitness world, like, I've lifted weights for decades at this point and, and I feel the best since I started doing your program. So I just respect you guys so much and I truly believe what you say and I will do what you're saying. It resonates with me because when I was leaner before working with the functional health practitioner, I felt terrible. Like, I just felt, but I felt like I looked like I wanted to look. So that's, it's so hard, I think, and I really, I do want to get over that. And I do believe because I'm like,

[Justin Andrews]

I feel good, I have Energy is a terrible trade.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

3% body fat is a terrible trade to feel like crap.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

That's not a good trade. And right now in your head, you don't realize that, but if I were to snap my fingers and have you switch back and forth, give you an hour there and an hour back, you'd be like, no, no, I'm good. By the way, the, the, I, I really do think you're going to settle probably around 21, 22% body fat. With more muscle and a faster metabolism, it's probably going to settle.

[Doug]

You'll. You'll look better than what you did when you were leaner and you'll feel better.

[Justin Andrews]

But.

[Doug]

Yeah, but you got to build into it.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, totally. What are your calories at right now?

[Kayla]

At least 22 to 2400.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, my God.

[Kayla]

And that's, that's since I started working with the function. I like, I don't track religiously, but when I do, it's pretty easy for me to get about that.

[Justin Andrews]

If you. Yeah, I bet you when you're around 22, you're probably hungry.

[Kayla]

Yeah. And I felt like it wasn't even the hunger. It was more like the just feelings almost ill because I just felt. Felt defeated.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. You need to be probably consistently 24, 25. Like, don't ever go below that is where I would have you. Yeah. And you'll, you'll actually get leaner with that because you're going to build into it.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Nikki]

Okay.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. That's where I keep you.

[Doug]

That should be the focus.

[Kayla]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

Stop being so hard on yourself. You're doing so great.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

You're doing really, really great. Yeah. You're going to keep, you're going to keep improving, but if you place that hyper focus on yourself, that's gonna, that's gonna, it's gonna set you back for sure.

[Doug]

Focus on getting strong on the lift lifts, feeding the body, reverse dieting, continuing to go up. You could easily continue to go up calories too, by the way. You could land. You could end up landing at a place like 27, 2800 calories. Easily, easily and, and getting stronger. If you do that, you'll build into the body that you're you desire right now. Don't think about cutting into it like you're, you're as low as I would want you calorie wise. I want to keep reversing you. And the signs of hitting PRs is such a good sign. We're moving in the right direction.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. I think if you consistently stayed about 24, 25, never went below it, you'd see this nice body composition change.

[Kayla]

Okay, I appreciate that. Yeah. When I first started your programs, I was using straps for 1:45 and I was like barely doing that. And now I felt like I could definitely just hold onto the bar at 225. No problems.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

It's like crazy how much your programming helps. And what would you suggest? Because I just came off as strong and then performance and that's pretty much all I'm doing. I do a little bit of the elliptical, but I mostly just walk and do your program.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

Right now I didn't know, like, what to do next.

[Justin Andrews]

I guess symmetry would be good. I think you would appreciate it, too, as a pt.

[Hannah]

Yeah.

[Kayla]

That's so hard, though, because I love the heavy, like, stuff. But I do. I haven't done that one yet. I do have it.

[Doug]

I should lean into that still, though.

[Justin Andrews]

I mean, you still power lift.

[Sal Destefano]

Go.

[Doug]

Power lift.

[Justin Andrews]

You could do power lift.

[Doug]

Yeah. Because you did. You've done strong, you've done performance, You've done performance. So always my recommendation is. Is a cycle of performance or symmetry a year. So always cycle one of those in there because that'll keep you balanced really well. So if you're. As long as you're cycling performance or symmetry once a year and then go. If you really enjoy the lifting heavy, I'd push you into power lift.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah, you want to do power lift, but you gotta. You gotta. You gotta eat 2, 500 calories a day for that one.

[Kayla]

Yeah, Yeah, I can do that. I. I feel so good lifting that 225. I made him come out and watch me. Good for, like, you gotta witness this.

[Doug]

It flew off the ground. I was like, why am I out here?

[Kayla]

I feel like that.

[Doug]

Oh, yeah. I love to see you do power lift. Power lift and feed. Powerlift and feed. And if you're hungry, feed. So even if you're landing at 2,500 calories and your appetite, eat more. So that's what I really focus on, the strength there. We get strong, and we can reverse diet right now even more. That would be a huge win in the next three months.

[Kayla]

Sounds great.

[Justin Andrews]

All right, awesome.

[Doug]

You guys keep it up.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Thanks for calling in.

[Doug]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kayla]

Thank you so much.

[Justin Andrews]

You got to go, guys. See, I can. I can literally hear his thoughts.

[Doug]

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I feel like that's why he was on here. That was like, you better tell him what's going on. Well, let's.

[Adam Schaefer]

Let's see what the guys have to say.

[Justin Andrews]

Yeah. Yeah.

[Doug]

Maybe.

[Justin Andrews]

Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know, because I know he's thinking. He's thinking like, honey, you're killing it. Like, you are really hard on yourself. Of course. But you don't want to hear it from your. I get it. I get it. But, man, she is doing really very well.

[Doug]

Very, very common with that athletes.

[Justin Andrews]

Oh, yeah.

[Doug]

Very, very complex athletes. So when she said that, I was just like, oh, she got a two

[Justin Andrews]

year old at home and her pregnancies were rough. I mean, if you read the people. She didn't read the whole, the whole email, but I mean, she was diagnosed with hyperemesis. I mean, she. That's like where you're vomiting all the time because you're so nauseous. Two C sections, remember, they cut through your core.

[Doug]

Yeah.

[Justin Andrews]

And so. And she's doing phenomenal. Yeah.

[Doug]

And just hit a pr, what, a couple days ago. It's just like, no, we're on the right track. You just, you know, it is, it was. The theme of the calls today is like, you know, build into the body you want versus trying to cut into the body you want will serve you so much more.

[Justin Andrews]

That's right. That's it. If you like the show, come find us on Instagram.

[Sal Destefano]

Mind Pump Media thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB super [e-mail] the RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, performance and maps, aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own personal trainers, but but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you can get it now. Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until next time, this is Mind Pump.