2867: Groundbreaking Technology for Pain, Sleep, Athletic Performance & More Jay Dhaliwal - Super Patch

Summary

Mind Pump Episode 2867 Summary:

Groundbreaking Technology for Pain, Sleep, Athletic Performance & More – Jay Dhaliwal, Super Patch

Date: May 28, 2026
Hosts: Sal Di Stefano, Adam Schafer, Justin Andrews, Doug Egge
Guest: Jay Dhaliwal (Super Patch CEO & Founder)

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Episode Overview

This episode features a deep-dive interview with Jay Dhaliwal, the founder of Super Patch, a company introducing a revolutionary drug-free patch using haptic (touch-based) technology. The hosts (Sal, Adam, Justin) trace Jay’s journey from a skeptical outsider to a pioneering innovator who has invested millions of his own money—and years of relentless engineering—to create and validate Super Patch products. Through candid discussion, peer-reviewed study findings, and firsthand anecdotes, the Mind Pump crew explore how these tactile patches may help alleviate pain, improve sleep, boost athletic performance, and more by influencing the nervous system—without introducing external substances into the body.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Initial Skepticism & First Impressions

Timestamps: 02:45–05:33

• The hosts describe their skepticism towards Super Patch due to its lack of any active ingredient or compound.
• Adam: “I was really skeptical right out of the gates...I looked at [the patch] and I was like, there’s nothing in this.” (03:20)
• Skepticism shifted on reviewing the scientifically robust, peer-reviewed studies provided by Jay.

2. The Origin Story: Mom’s MS & the Search for a Solution

Timestamps: 05:33–19:24

• Jay’s motivation came from seeking to help his mom manage Multiple Sclerosis symptoms, focusing on bridging the “lost” neurological signals, not by repairing damaged myelin but by finding a workaround (“building a bridge”).
• “If I can quantify the signal, then maybe I can build a bridge over the part that’s not working....That’s what engineers do, we build bridges.” – Jay (17:35)
• Jay’s background in software encryption led him to develop proprietary software to analyze massive human EEG (brainwave) datasets.

3. The Science: Brainwaves, Signal Processing & Pattern Recognition

Timestamps: 12:27–25:06

• The team discusses EEGs, neural networks, and the search for “normative” brainwave networks linked to human locomotion and function.

• “All we can take a look at is develop theories and then figure out what’s—the likeliness of this is what’s causing the cause-effect... We’re looking at what’s happening.” – Jay (05:33)

• Jay spent five years and millions of dollars writing code and analyzing quarter-million-person EEG databases to isolate common “networks” responsible for functions lost in conditions like MS.

• First “breakthrough”: consistent patterns among healthy people and outliers in MS, Tourette’s, etc.

4. Haptic Pathways: From Braille to Brain

Timestamps: 25:07–38:33

• Jay explores nonchemical ways to change neurological signals, inspired by how blind people read Braille—a 200-year-old tactile method.

• Discovery of Piezo2 ion channels (2010 research) as the biological mechanism converting touch/pressure into neurological signals.

• The first product: insoles/socks with unique patterns stimulating foot receptors, resulting in [31%] improvement in balance in people with gait/mobility issues.

• Notable moment:
  “First product I made was a pair of socks...31% people with issues with balance, with gait, balance, stability—put the socks on and it improves by 31%.” – Jay (34:47)

5. Scientific Validation and Iterative Engineering

Timestamps: 38:33–46:05

• Meticulous, iterative engineering process—over 1200 design iterations—ensured patches work in any orientation.
• Key affirmation: third-party EEG analysis (by Dr. Robert Thatcher) confirmed that the skin’s response to the patch could be consistently registered in the somatosensory cortex.

6. Mechanism of Action: What the Patch Actually Does

Timestamps: 46:10–49:25

• The patches are non-transdermal and non-invasive; no compounds enter the body.
• The patch provides specific physical patterns that stimulate receptors in the skin, prompting an endogenous (internal) signal via neurological pathways.
• “The patch is not creating the signal. The skin sensors are creating the signal....All the patch does is create tension on our skin and the receptors by putting it against it.” – Jay (46:10)

7. Clinical Results & Peer-Reviewed Studies

Timestamps: 52:11–58:47

• Super Patch products now supported by 16 peer-reviewed studies (6+ on PubMed), $9 million+ invested in research.
• Key results in pain & sleep studies:
  • Pain: 50% reduction in perceived pain; 70% drop in pain interference with life.
  • Sleep: 50% faster time to sleep onset; 25% longer sleep duration; 85% of originally poor sleepers report “good/great” sleep within 2 weeks.
• “The results are legit and they’re repeated. We’ve experienced the effects, and I mean, it works. It’s really wild.” – Sal (73:34)

8. Expanding Applications: Stress, Athletic Performance, Stacking Patches

Timestamps: 61:15–68:07

• Stress: 33% reduction in perceived stress; 24% improvement in mental health markers.
• Athletic Performance:
  • 5–8% improvement in elite D1 athlete lower limb power at University of Arizona.
  • “We see...improvement in body symmetry, meaning weak side becoming as balanced as the dominant side.” – Jay (62:30)
  • Patch is now in half of NFL teams; adoption across NBA, MLB.
• Stacking: Multiple patches can be worn—no interference; increases neuroplasticity and raises individual baseline well-being over time.

9. Market, Efficacy, & Product Line

Timestamps: 66:34–70:22

• Super Patch products launched Jan 2023; rapid adoption—projected half-billion in annual sales.
• 95% efficacy rate overall; nonresponders attributed to neurological/physiological differences.
• Product spectrum includes patches for pain, sleep, stress, mood, immune support, men’s health (libido), motion sickness, “flow”/Zen, appetite suppression/metabolic rate (“Ignite”).

10. Regulatory, Medical & Ethical Context

Timestamps: 70:45–75:27

• Super Patch registered as a Class I FDA medical device (general wellness claims, not for disease treatment).
• Over 5,000 U.S. MDs now directly recommending Super Patch products from their offices.
• Jay committed to remaining private: “The goal is to bring drug free wellness to the world...People need a choice. Right option. Do what you want, but give me a choice.” (75:01)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

“A mind is like a parachute. It only works if it’s open.” – Jay Dhaliwal (05:33)

“That’s what engineers do, we build bridges.” – Jay Dhaliwal (17:35)

“If it wasn’t for all the studies, I wouldn’t have given it a second thought. But the studies are real. People can look them up.” – Sal Di Stefano (73:24)

“This is not a Harry Potter patch. This is science. There’s no hocus pocus here.” – Jay Dhaliwal (77:03)

“The first guy through the door always has a bloody nose.” – Jay Dhaliwal (78:19)

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Segment Timestamps

• Introduction, skepticism – 00:45–05:33
• Jay’s backstory & mission – 05:33–19:24
• Technical explanation & pattern recognition – 12:27–25:06
• Discovery of haptic solution & Braille analogy – 25:07–38:33
• Sock/foot studies, early validation – 34:37–38:33
• Patch engineering & function – 38:33–49:25
• Clinical research & outcomes – 52:11–58:47
• Expanding science, sports, stacking – 61:15–68:07
• Product line/details, real-world adoption – 66:34–70:22
• Medical classification & future plans – 70:45–75:27
• Closing thoughts – 75:27–End

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Summary & Takeaways

• Super Patch offers a new, non-chemical modality for pain relief, sleep, stress reduction, and athletic performance by harnessing the body’s innate neurology via skin-based haptic signals.
• The technology is extensively validated, with peer-reviewed clinical evidence showing effects comparable to pharmaceutical options—but drug free and with minimal risk.
• Jay’s relentless engineering and personal investment have led to a new wellness category, now gaining traction with both the public and medical professionals.
• The Mind Pump hosts, initially skeptical, are convinced by the evidence and their own experience.

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For the scientifically minded, the skeptical, or the biohacker crowd, this episode is both an educational and paradigm-shifting listen.

Transcript

[Sal Destefano]

If you want to pump your body and expand your mind, there's only one place to go.

[Adam Schaefer]

Mind Pump.

[Sal Destefano]

Mind Pump. With your hosts, Sal Destefano, Adam Schaefer and Justin Andrews, you just found the

[Adam Schaefer]

most downloaded fitness, health and entertainment podcast. This is Mind Pump. Okay, today's episode, this one is wild. This doesn't happen very often, but my mind gets completely blown. So we interviewed the founder of Superpatch, J. Dhaliwal, and he came up with a technology took him a long time and tens of millions of dollars. He came up with the technology that does things like alleviate pain, improve sleep, boost athletic performance with no compounds, no supplements, something called haptic technology. It's literally a small patch you put on your skin and it gets these things to happen. When I first heard about it, I was completely skeptical, completely skeptical until Jay sent me the peer reviewed controlled studies, Real studies you guys like, you can look them up yourselves. The studies prove these things really work. My mind has been changed. We've experimented and used their products and all of us notice a difference. It's wild. It's breakthrough. It's. It's going to start a new category of how people can alleviate things like pain or improve their sleep or move better, boost their libido. There's. The possibilities are endless. The company's called Super Patch. So in this episode, we talk all about the founding, the science, and just how wild it is. By the way, if you want to try out one of their products, you get yourself a discount. You can go to mindpump.superpatch.com that link will get you $30 off the products. Now this episode is brought to you by another sponsor, Seed. This is the world's best probiotics. So if you like the benefits of probiotics, you like the better gut health, you see what the science says for inflammation, for skin health, for energy. There is some evidence that shows that probiotics may help with fat loss. Go with the world's best. Go with Seed. Don't go with the competitors. They're not even in the same universe. Go to seed.com mindpump Use the code 25 mind pump, get 25% off. We also have a sale on our workout programs. Buy any Maps 15 style workout program. Get any other Maps 15 style program for free. It's buy one, get one free. Go to maps15bogo.com all right, real quick.

[Sal Destefano]

If you love us like we love

[Adam Schaefer]

you, why not show it by rocking one of our shirts, hats, mugs or training gear? Over at mypumpstore, Dot com.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm talking right now. Hit pause, click, Head on over tomypumpstore.com. that's it. Enjoy the rest of the show.

[Adam Schaefer]

Jay, welcome to the show.

[Sal Destefano]

So glad to be here, Sal.

[Adam Schaefer]

So this is an interesting one for me. Right. So I'm just going to tell the audience, like how this all came to be and why you're on our show. So you guys sent us some samples of your product. And I'm typically the guy that looks at supplements or products and, you know, helps determine whether or not this is something we'll even consider, you know, working with. And I was really skeptical right out the gates. Like, really skeptical. So your product is a patch that you put on and it produces effects. Now I initially thought, oh, this must be a transdermal.

[Sal Destefano]

Sure.

[Adam Schaefer]

You know, it's gonna, it's gonna deliver some kind of transdermal compound or whatever. And then I looked at him like, there's nothing in this. Yeah. In that way.

[Sal Destefano]

Became more skeptical.

[Adam Schaefer]

Even more skeptical.

[Sal Destefano]

So the skeptical skill just started broke. Right?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. And I was like, this is. I mean, I'll be honest, I was like, this is.

[Sal Destefano]

You're not the first guy.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. This is not. This is nothing. This is like total whatever.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

And then you guys sent over some studies.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

And I looked at the studies and I was like, are these real? Like, these are well made. Like, these are legit studies showing one you over for sure. And like a real effect.

[Sal Destefano]

It's real deal.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like a real effect. Like a significant effect.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

So I went through the studies and then. But I was still. I'm still a skeptic. I'm always a skeptic. So I get on the phone with you.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

And I'm like, I got to ask this guy, like, what the deal is.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, yeah, you came loaded.

[Adam Schaefer]

I was rapid.

[Sal Destefano]

Because dudes, he came loaded.

[Adam Schaefer]

I was like, okay, well, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why.

[Sal Destefano]

I appreciate it. Well, we haven't. I don't think there's been a product like this that we've been skeptical and then this interested in since red light therapy.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's all I was just going to say. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Red light therapy did a similar thing. I remember when that first, that first became popular, you got to cross the chasm of understanding and belief that's not there. Right. So you have to, you have to build a bridge.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yes, 100%. Because same thing with red light therapy. How cool you were. Shine a red light on yourself. There's all these things. And then they did the same thing. They sent us studies. I saw the studies and then I was like, huh. Then we talked to them and now, you know, obviously it works, and now everybody knows it works, but it's backwards. So with your product, I got you on. And that's why I'm asking you all the questions while we're on the phone about the studies and how this works and how you came up with it. And you got me interested enough definitely to have you on the show. And I will say we've been trying some of them and Adam's been having some pain issues and he's been using the pain one and he explains it. He says it takes my pain from an 8 and a 9 down to like a 5. Yeah. Or something like that.

[Sal Destefano]

That's what we see in the study.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

That's the best way I could describe it.

[Adam Schaefer]

I don't know how else to describe

[Sal Destefano]

it other than that. Study shows 50% reduction in perceived pain.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay. So let's so explain what these patches are and how you came up with them, and then let's talk about these studies because it's wild. Crazy. Make a believer out of me. And again, if I didn't see all these studies showing support, there's no way I'd believe it. So start. Let's start there.

[Sal Destefano]

No, that's. Thanks anyways. Thank you for the open mind. Because they say a mind is like a parachute. It only works if it's open. Right. Because there's so many things happening in the world that we don't have time to stay on top of it. Right. The second thing, I'll preface. And we can go down two different roads. We can go down the really in depth road or we can go at the high level. I think you dudes are going to be like, let's go into the deets, which is great. Everything in neuroscience, and I'll argue anybody is a theory. If anybody says they understand how our mind really works and everything that it does and how it does, we don't know. All we can take a look at is develop theories and then figure out what's. The likeliness of this is what's causing the cause effect. Okay. So if there's anything that I say that doesn't make sense or you want a deeper inflammation, we can talk about it. I might say that. I don't know. There's a lot of things I don't know. And we just measure the effects. Right. We're looking at what's happening. So I think we all agree that our nervous system is in charge, Right. It runs the show. Every physiological function has some kind of neurological control, Right? That control in humans, and I only studied humans and people. What about animals? I go, I don't know about animals. I've only studied the human eeg. That neurological control is expressed in brainwaves. That is the language of our mind. Alpha, beta, delta, theta, gamma. Those are the brainwaves we can read with the equipment that we have today. Is there other stuff going on? Quite possibly, we don't know. But this is what we can study. And EEG studies and QEG studies are the backbone, the gold standard of understanding normative neural function. Okay, okay. And we can see those networks. And what is a neural network? A neural network is a combination of brain waves connecting one region of a brain with another region of a brain, right? So it's a little spark of brainwave activity of a wave, but it's never a straight line, it always spirals, right? So we have to understand that our mind isn't a two dimensional construct, right? So although we see squiggly lines on an eeg, the stuff that's actually happening in our mind is never a straight line. There's no straight lines in neurology. It's always spiraling. So anyways, it's one region of our mind, one neuron, one Broadman area talking to another Brodmann area. It's a little bridge. Multiple millions of bridges form networks. And every physiological function can be reduced, if you look at it in certain ways, to a very discrete network of function. And so that's what we've done. So first of all, we decided to look and. Yes, well, why did you have to even do this? Like, you must have better things to do. This started off as a passion project to help my mom with her Ms. Right. For 25 years, we tried every mainstream mechanism, modality, you name it, we tried it. And the question for me at the end of the 25 years was, we're trying to get the signal from her mind to her body because mom couldn't do this, right? And so my background is software encryption. And so my question to her care providers and leading thought leaders in this space was, we understand because of demyelination, the signal's not getting from her mind to her body. She wants to do this. She wants to be ambulatory, control on her arms, but she can't do it. So talk to me about that signal. Right? And the answer was, well, it's not that simple. So what I've learned is if academia and mainstream Medicine comes back and says, it's not that simple. That's code for we don't know. That's what I've learned over the last many, many years. And they're like, well, why do you want to know? I go, it's pretty simple. If I can quantify the signal, then maybe I can build a bridge over the part that's not working right? Because that's what engineers do, we build bridges, right? They're like, well, like, okay, we don't know what the signal is. Where does it start? Well, it starts in the brain. I'm like, great. What part of the brain is regulating this? And what's the signal that starts there? It's not that simple, right? So this is a conversation that's many, many months and weeks and just trying to deduce it. And the conversation that concluded was our mind generates information that starts off as brainwaves, that when it exits our central nervous system down the brain stem, out the AP of the brainstem, it becomes microcurrents of signals. There's no brainwaves per se inside our peripheral nervous system, right? There are microcurrents of electricity, all organized in very specific way. And I said, okay, what are the brain waves that actually control ambulatory control? That's where I started looking at it. And. And again, the answer was not that simple. But what I knew at that point, as you can imagine, is if brainwaves are the source of that control, that express neuro function, that ultimately express physiological function, then that's what we need to study. But you can't base it on one set of data, right? You need lots and lots of data. So there are a number of databases globally that have been collecting EEG readings from people for decades. The database that we've relied on is called the Loretta Z database. It's about a quarter million subjects. They're EEG readings and it's become the normative database to measure normative function. So if I took Sal, your eeg, and I wanted to see, hey, where is Sal's eeg? Neural function based against normative. That's the database. We would compare your EEG to see the difference between normative function and where yours is. That's what these databases are used for and can use them for imaging. You can use them for identifying networks. So this is now going back to 2009. So it's been a while. So this database, you can license it, it's not expensive. I got this database and I'm trying to see where's a network that controls Mom's ambulatory control. This. The database doesn't have it. Right. It's not built to do that. And when I write to them in a communication listen, where is the ambulatory network? Where's this network? They're like, no, no, we have this software, but basically what you're seeing is an oscilloscope that has wiggly lines on it. So for better part, three and a half, four years, I write my own software to start analyzing that database. So now here's the theory that I had, and if you disagree, then we can talk about it. The four of us are awake and alive, right? So far we agree. So far we agree. That means if our brain is regulating every physiological function, our breathing, our respiratory control, our heart rate, everything ambulatory, then that activity must be expressed in our minds.

[Adam Schaefer]

There's communication going on.

[Sal Destefano]

There's something going on. Right. And if that's the case, then that network must exist in every single person. Right.

[Adam Schaefer]

Seems logical.

[Sal Destefano]

Seems logical, right. That was the theory, letter K. If I have enough database, if I have enough data or a large enough database, there must be a network in every single one of them that regulates ambulatory control.

[Adam Schaefer]

So you should be able to identify,

[Sal Destefano]

I should be able to siphon it out.

[Adam Schaefer]

This is what these brain waves look like in people with normal control.

[Sal Destefano]

That was the premise.

[Adam Schaefer]

And you're trying to look for it,

[Sal Destefano]

I'm trying to find it.

[Adam Schaefer]

And so you built software to analyze, because that's a lot of data and numbers. And so step one was creating software to compile all of this and give you what you're looking for.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, it's pattern recognition, right? So it's based on machine learning, pattern recognition, delineation. So you can take any complex sine wave and you can reduce it to individual frequencies. And all this is just Fourier transform. This is. Mathematical constructs have been around for a long time. It's signal processing. Okay? Right. But it isn't one signal. It's a lot of signals. So we had to find was the relationship between areas of the brain, broadband areas, the different discrete networks that are being formed in them, and find the one that's common across 99% of that database.

[Adam Schaefer]

You're looking for normative.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm looking for normative inconsistency. Does this pattern exist? So the ambulatory program that all of us have is hardwired, is organized the same way in all of us because no one teaches us ambulatory control. No one teaches how to use our arm or legs, right? No one teaches us pain, no one teaches us sleep. No one teaches us these things. Things are pre programmed and so they must be the same, otherwise we couldn't function. Right. So I'm looking for that network that helps regulate our ambulatory control, vestibular response, balance, stability, control my arms, control my legs. Why? Because that's what my mom lost with

[Adam Schaefer]

her Ms. Now when you're doing this and you're. First off, creating that software in itself is a crazy project that's like a whole nother company.

[Sal Destefano]

It's four years.

[Adam Schaefer]

Four years you're just creating code for

[Sal Destefano]

coding five and a half million lines.

[Adam Schaefer]

Five and a half million. Wow. Okay, so that whole time you're doing that and you're right. Your thoughts, and I did this.

[Sal Destefano]

But that's what I so the advantage. That was a great point because that's what I did. That was my sweet spot.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Like I grew up doing that.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Like that's where I'm at home.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay. So five years, you're, you're, you're creating the software that's going to break this down for you. And your theory was if I can identify what's normative.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Then I have a place to look now to help solve this problem. You don't know what the how to solve this problem.

[Sal Destefano]

I have no idea.

[Adam Schaefer]

You just are like this is the first clue.

[Sal Destefano]

Listen, it's like Google Maps. If you want to go somewhere, you got to know where you are first.

[Adam Schaefer]

Sure. Right.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. So I need baseline, I need to. Where am I? What are we starting with? What's normative? What's baseline vestibular response? What's baseline ambulatory control? How are you, when you're writing the code for this, how are you able to tease out all the other functions? This is the time and the energy. This is why it's taken so long. Yeah, like the horsepower on now we have so many different tools, but the server stack is heavy, the coding is heavy, the app is heavy. Right. It's a drain because you're synthesizing trillions of bits of data trying to find that common. And once you start seeing it and seeing how it's organized, then it becomes easy and easy. The last patch that I made was 10 times, 100 times easier than the first patch that I made. Right. Because you got to start somewhere. Right. And the beautiful part is EEG data and EEG analysis and Q analysis is not a new thing. Top tier scientists, the National Health Programs, the Pentagon, they've all been studying this. So this isn't like I'm doing this in isolation. Some of the smartest people in the world are. So there's a lot of research happening at the same time that I'm reading that I'm saying, okay, this is probably not the right way to go. This is probably not getting clues. And we're getting clues everywhere. Right. And all I'm trying to do is find a consistent network that I believe theoretically responds to ambulatory control, muscle recruitment.

[Adam Schaefer]

Now what, so what's the majority of like, where are you getting all this data from in terms of the person?

[Sal Destefano]

Like so, so, so the Loretta Z database is that database. It's got the QEG database of a quarter million people. That's what we're analyzing.

[Adam Schaefer]

It just varies across the board.

[Sal Destefano]

It's age 2 to 85.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Quarter million. That's a lot of people. That's a lot of data.

[Adam Schaefer]

Which is actually really good for what you're trying to do.

[Sal Destefano]

It's absolutely the perfect thing that I'm trying to do. Without it, I couldn't do it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Because normative.

[Sal Destefano]

Could you imagine if I had to go collect

[Adam Schaefer]

to gather that data?

[Sal Destefano]

But this was a lifetime of people that have been studying this. Right. There's so many people now.

[Adam Schaefer]

What made you. At this point, I gotta ask you this, because what I know of Ms. Is that essentially the communication highway, the myelin sheaths. Right. That protect the nerves is becoming damaged.

[Sal Destefano]

Yes.

[Adam Schaefer]

And so the signal's not getting to the place. Yes. When I hear that I'm focusing on the myelin sheath. I am not even thinking about what. What made you go in the said

[Sal Destefano]

his, his engineer, Brian thinks of creating a bridge. He knows there was no road. The road block there. I'm trying to create a bridge. They haven't been able to fix the myelin issue, the demy nation issue. Right. So I'm like, they can't fix it. So what do I do? I. I knew that I had to build some kind of bridge over the broken part.

[Adam Schaefer]

But before you do that, you got to know what normal looks like.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, I, I got to know what, what do I got to cross the bridge? Am I building a railroad track? Am I building a highway? I got to know what is that information that's got to go across? Because they can't tell me and because I don't know what it is. I got to go to source. I got to go to first principles. Where does it start? Because once I know where it starts, then I can trace it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Got it, Got it. So you're thinking, let me figure this out first. Once I see what's going on, then

[Sal Destefano]

I'll know what's going on.

[Adam Schaefer]

Then I'm going to try and build a bridge.

[Sal Destefano]

Then I'm trying to build a bridge. Yeah. Seems impossible, of course, but this is the thing. I believe that every challenge that was put in front of us, the big guy upstairs had a plan for us. If he didn't train me with his gifts of building to understand and learn and mathematics, I couldn't do what I did. So I don't take any credit for people like, oh, you're so smart. I go, mm, I got nothing to do with that. I'm determined. I got nothing to do with that. Our personality is God given. I believe this wholeheartedly.

[Adam Schaefer]

And you're motivated because it's Mom.

[Sal Destefano]

Because I'm motivated because it's my mom. So I have a great career. I'm financially independent. I got a great marriage, I got great kids. I take care of my parents. Check mark. Check mark. I knocked the American dream out of the park. I hit for the cycle. Now what? Now what do you do? Mom's still sick. So the motivation is there, the desire is there, the curiosity is there. And I have the time and resources to do it. If I didn't have the time and resources, this wasn't going to get done. No one was going to believe that this crazy guy was going to sit there for 15 years to figure this thing out. No one would invest in it. So if I didn't have my own resources to do it, it wasn't going to happen.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Because that's trying to raise money for that idea.

[Sal Destefano]

No chance possible. No. No chance.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Now everybody wants to invest. I'm like, no, no, no. Thanks.

[Adam Schaefer]

So. So in that five year period when you're trying to, you're, you're creating the software, you start synthesizing this data. When was the first, like, breakthrough or aha moment.

[Sal Destefano]

There were so many. So because you got to, you got to triangulate down, right? Okay. Because there's seemingly an infinite amount of data, an infinite amount of computations that you're trying to do, right? So you're thinking, where do I start? Right. So I come across this study done in 1964. Wow.

[Adam Schaefer]

Old study

[Sal Destefano]

in Sydney, Australia, by a neuromuscular dentist. This is weird stuff. A neuromuscular dentist.

[Adam Schaefer]

Dentist.

[Sal Destefano]

Dude. I didn't know that was a thing. It's a thing.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, you were scouring.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm reading everything. Like I've read 50,000 research papers over the last 17 years.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. So I'm just, I've been there with a loved one where I. You just, you're just, you're motivated, you're

[Sal Destefano]

motivated to read everything because you don't know. Because I don't know.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. So the part of the learning is disqualification. And this is important. Disqualify. And this is important. Disqualify. This is important. But you can't. But every time you read a paper that's worthy and that has informative, it's got 200 references that you also have to read.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Because you can't connect the dots. Right. So this research done in 64 in Sydney, Australia, there's this guy, he's taking a look at neurofunction. He's taking a look at how the different nuclei in our brain are impacting vestibular response and balance. This is hitting like this is triggering me.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. So this is right up your.

[Sal Destefano]

Right up my alley. So he says that, hey, there's nuclei, there's a red nuclei in the pons. He says the pons and the midbrain are critical for vestibular control, balance and stability. This is what mom lost. So what this does for me, and this is the first year because this narrows the field.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Now you can start to use this to search for other studies.

[Sal Destefano]

Now I know where am I going to start looking for the first network. Right. Instead of looking at the whole brain. I know that, hey, if this vestibular system is isolated or predominantly controlled by this region of the brain, that I know which area, the broadband areas that I have to start focusing on that, triangulate from there. It's like you were searching in the

[Adam Schaefer]

total vast of all the oceans and

[Sal Destefano]

you've just narrowed it down to the Atlantic. Just that.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So now, so looking into spaces, seeing all the galaxies, now I'm just looking at this one constellation, right. And say, okay, this is where I'm going to start work done by giants. That's okay. Hey, dude, look here. And that's what it was. So it started with that. And the first inkling that I had of where it was was starting to look at the midbrain, the different nuclei. What do they connect? What are they broadcast in? What are they connecting with? And this over time led to this. It's a diagnostic tool that says, hey, we've looked at all of this data. Here are common patterns of networks that are appearing over and over and over and over again. And if they only appear in 50%, I'm not interested. Because the theory was that they have to exist across 99% of that database.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's got to be really common.

[Sal Destefano]

Really common. Right. So based on other people's research, I deduce what I believe is the vestibular response network. And I go, here it is. And then I have my mom's EEGs from every year we do an EEG for my mom. And when I compare her EEG against that database against that network, she. She's below. So if this is the normative bandwidth for that vestibular response database, because there's a band it operates in. Right. Hers is lower.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. And while you're doing this, you're like, I hope this looks different. Cause it would imagine if it wasn't. Right. But you're like, I hope this. I hope I see a difference.

[Sal Destefano]

This is the thing. So I learned a long time ago, and I don't know where exact moment, I learned a long time ago to disassociate the effort from the outcome. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Otherwise you would have given up.

[Sal Destefano]

Otherwise you give up, Right. You quit. Right. If you can isolate, just put, I come over here, I'm going to do the do. Yeah. And we're going to see what it is. So being that curious person, that student, that's. I'm going to go learn nothing else. I'm going to learn. Right. And it was such, like, if I didn't sleep for days when, when I saw that, I go, this is insane.

[Adam Schaefer]

Because it was very clear.

[Sal Destefano]

It was so clear. And so then what do you do naturally is you go, prove it. So you. I got EEGs from other people with Ms.

[Adam Schaefer]

I was just gonna ask.

[Sal Destefano]

Then you gotta get other people with Ms. And it's the same thing.

[Adam Schaefer]

You saw consistency, consistency below. Oh, light bulbs. That's gotta be exciting.

[Sal Destefano]

Bing, bing, bing, bing, bing. I'm like a lot of like, like I would wake up my wife in the morning, like, this is wake up. We found something. Like, what did you finally go? And I tell her what it was. She goes, I go, the vectors are like this. And then she's like, what are you talking about right now? Right. But it's okay because I'm in full, like, geek mode. And then I go, okay, what else is true? So people that have no control. These are people that have involuntary control of their muscles. Right. So if you have people that have muscle, spastic issues, Tourette's issues, stuff like this. And I put their network in, it's above.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. What you would expect, bro.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, I'm like, this is Wicked.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

But I don't know. So I'm just. I'm like you. I'm like, let's see what it says.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Put the data in and it goes bing. Yeah, right? It's like, this is very cool. And I go, I think this is the network. So then you're looking at it. I go, so now what?

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, great.

[Sal Destefano]

Jay, you spent all this time, energy and money. You've done this thing.

[Adam Schaefer]

And how long until. When was it. When you figured this out? How many years?

[Sal Destefano]

This is 2014.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, so you start in 2009.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. 2000. End of 2008. 2009. This is 2014.

[Adam Schaefer]

This is five years later.

[Sal Destefano]

This is five years.

[Adam Schaefer]

Your first breakthrough like that.

[Sal Destefano]

I could see something.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, the discipline to go that long.

[Adam Schaefer]

What's your mom, dude?

[Sal Destefano]

It's a mom, bro. Nothing you wouldn't do. Yeah, right. Like, between me and God, there's Mom.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

That's how I came here.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, right. There's a connection there that. The ultimate. I think everybody's. I speak for myself. My mom is my creator. I forgot. Right.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

And so I'll do anything for her. And so that's what keeps you going. And the advantage that I had of financial independence was that, yeah, it was costly, it was timely, it was a lot of determination. That's required. But I couldn't think of a more nobler thing to pursue than that.

[Adam Schaefer]

How much money at this point did you invest?

[Sal Destefano]

At that point, I was about to. 4 and a half in million? Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. Wow. This is your money?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow.

[Sal Destefano]

Wow. Okay. Oh, to date, I'm 40.

[Adam Schaefer]

40 million of your own money?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. Wow.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

So you're talking about conviction, bro.

[Adam Schaefer]

You gotta have some serious. Hold on. How was your wife with this? So five years in, you're just throwing money at this thing.

[Sal Destefano]

So I was very fortunate to hit it out of the park three times in big ways. I didn't. I could afford it. Okay, right. If I couldn't afford it, I couldn't. I couldn't have done it. Sure, right. Did you go in knowing that? Did you know, like, I'm going, this is going to be millions. I had no idea.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, okay.

[Sal Destefano]

I had no idea. Wow. Because I don't know, because I'm starting from. From what I. What I've. Because I've been studying neurology since I was 13 years old, since mom got sick. I mean, there had have been somebody, though, along the way that's just like, this is going to cost you Millions of dollars? No, because no one would. Because we didn't know what we were looking for. Nobody's ever tried to do it. Right? And the few. I know a lot of people in. In New York and Toronto. I mean, these are big financial centers. Like, hey, I got this idea. And they're like, what are you doing? Yeah. Are you insane? I'm like, possibly. But this is. I go. My question is, what if? Yeah, right. So it's that much time, energy into it. And then the question is, so now what? The question is, how do I still help my mom? So then I go back to the first premise. If these waves are responsible for that physical response, right? Can I move those waves in her network into normative function?

[Adam Schaefer]

And then what will that do?

[Sal Destefano]

And what will happen then?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. So now the question is, how do you move those?

[Sal Destefano]

How do you move those waves?

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, so where does that take you?

[Sal Destefano]

So then you're like, how do I do this? Right?

[Adam Schaefer]

So I mean, my first thought is pharmacology. That's what I'm thinking.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, I've tried it.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's right. That's right.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, we've tried it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, you guys, we tried it for 25 years. So you can't.

[Sal Destefano]

You know, I've tried nerve conduction. I've looked at it, and it didn't. It didn't cross the chasm. It didn't. It didn't. The light at the end of the tunnel was always a train. Like, do you know how many times my mom and I felt like Wiley Coyote, you're going down that train track. You think it's daylight, but it's a train. You're like, okay, this is not going to work. You got to come back. Right. So now what? So the question is, how can you change waves? Right? So first principle says, how are they getting there? Now, how are waves. Put the word brain side to a second. How are waves getting into our central nervous system? Now, photons go through our eyes. They hit our optic nerve and they become a wave. Right. There's no projector in our head. Right. Sound waves go through our ears, hit the audio nerves, and become waves. No subwoofers, no mics, nothing in our head. What we're experiencing right now are just brain waves. Right. You might be there physically, but from my reality, you're existing in here as a wave.

[Adam Schaefer]

Sure.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. How else?

[Adam Schaefer]

Touch.

[Sal Destefano]

Touch? Yeah, touch. And I don't know if you guys get it, but stuff comes into my head and I can't shake it. Sometimes you get a song in Your head or something, and it just percolates. And the thing that's renting space in my head is how do blind people read?

[Adam Schaefer]

So that right out the gates came

[Sal Destefano]

to you, it just. It was a download. It was like, bang. How do blind people read?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Braille.

[Sal Destefano]

How? 200 years old. They're getting the waves to the touch.

[Adam Schaefer]

Braille's 200 years old.

[Sal Destefano]

He's 200 years old.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, I didn't know that. Wow.

[Sal Destefano]

200 years old.

[Adam Schaefer]

And it's reliable. I mean, they read very consistent and reliable.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. How's that working? So then I go down that rabbit hole. How does this work? Right? And lucky for me, in 2010, these guys published a paper out of California, Dr. Julius and Doctor Patient. They discovered for the first time the ion channels that actually generate that microelectrical current from touch, texture and pressure, and they term it piezo two. So we've known forever that our skin is sending information to our brain. We know this.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. And the cool thing about braille, you just said, It's 200 years old. We've got to have a lot of data on braille.

[Sal Destefano]

We have none.

[Adam Schaefer]

You're kidding me.

[Sal Destefano]

No, no, no, no, no, no. The exact underlying mechanisms are unknown.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. For 200 years.

[Sal Destefano]

Because it works.

[Adam Schaefer]

Because we're like, who cares?

[Sal Destefano]

Because it works.

[Adam Schaefer]

So who cares?

[Sal Destefano]

Like, do you care how it works?

[Adam Schaefer]

No.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, that's my point.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. Okay, good point.

[Sal Destefano]

So we need to know, right? This is the reality of it. Okay, Right. But I'm curious, like, how's that happening? And there's so much research coming in from all over the world about pie two. These guys are just top tier people. And these things over the now last 17 years. I want to jump forward. So pie2s are proving to be the primary communicators in our body that generate electrical signals. But they're saying they're also responsible for now for also intracellular communication. Like, these things are super critical. So any piece of tissue in our body that doesn't have piezo two is pretty much an unsensitized piece of flesh. If it doesn't have piezo two, it's dead.

[Adam Schaefer]

So PSO two, is that what it is?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, piezo two.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

So P. These are ion channels.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay. This is basically communicating to the brain.

[Sal Destefano]

So what the. Soon as we touch that sensation, you're

[Adam Schaefer]

feeling Pistols being associated with that.

[Sal Destefano]

Is that part of Apasia 2 is. It's just a channel. Right. So it sparks because of touch, pressure, vibration. Okay, Right. So they surround the different receptors in our skin.

[Adam Schaefer]

And what are they using? Calcium? Are they calcium?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, potassium, Calcium. There's all the electrodes, but it's. It is a microcurrent.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. And this is what's generous. I'm like, this is very curious. So at least now I know the mechanisms that are gonna eventually send some signal to our mind. Do you go down the rabbit hole of, like, acupuncture and massage? All of it. I've studied all of it. Cause I would say that there's gotta be a lot of connections along this way. Cause I'm reading everything right. So I read a study coming out of the University of British Columbia. Two doctors, Kennedy and Inglis, smart guys. And they've been mapping the mechanical. Because now I'm studying skin receptors, right? This is where we're at now. This is the next thing. And they published a study now done in 2002, and they mapped out receptors on the bottom of the feet. And their conclusion is this, that these receptors play some role in postural stability and balance. Oh, I'm like, what's this?

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, so you see balance? You see these receptors?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. I go, I'm on track.

[Adam Schaefer]

Got it.

[Sal Destefano]

Something's happening here. So more research needs to be done. And that's the famous line in all research, right? But more research. So I find one of these doctors, he's gone on to something else. And I said, hey, doc, my name's Jay. I'm trying to do this thing. I read your research paper. You said more research needs to be done. Do you have any more research? Hey, Jay, thanks for calling. We couldn't get any more funding on this scope, so we didn't do any more research on it. They were knocking on heaven's door as far as I was concerned. You see, academia is completely driven by funding for research. If they don't get the funding, the research stops. Why? And not to speak, because I think it's important. Work with it is very important. But they're driven by the need to publish, not solve a problem. Engineers have a different mindset. We're like, okay, there's a problem.

[Adam Schaefer]

Solve it.

[Sal Destefano]

Solve it. Right? So I'm going to try to find all the variables as a part of the solution, the equation that's going to lead to an answer that I need. So I'm like, so now I went from brainwaves to receptors, and now I've condensed it down to the bottom of the feet. So I'm just going with the wave, right? I'm not fighting anything. I'm not resisting I'm saying, okay, wherever this leads, I'm going to go. So now I end up at the bottom of the feet. I'm like, what's here? And the first thing that I deduce is I combine different receptors on the bottom of the feet, because that's where the research was. It wasn't that I was so brilliant. So I'm going to start there. So the first product, or the first iteration of the tech was actually stimulating the metatarsal area at the bottom of the foot, and it was isolated to that. And the first thing that I made was a pad that would go into an insole or a pair of socks that could stimulate that metatarsal spot. How'd it work? And it worked.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. What do you mean, it worked? How?

[Sal Destefano]

We could see improvements in balanced abilities. The first product I made was a pair of socks.

[Adam Schaefer]

And you tried this on mom and other people?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, we have a study on it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow.

[Sal Destefano]

31% people with issues with balance, with gait, balance, stability. Put the socks on, and it improves by 31%.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow.

[Sal Destefano]

But no, but. But more than that. I said, no, no, no, no. This is not enough. I need to see the neurological connection. Right. So you would think that you're wearing socks, I'm wearing socks. I don't know if you're wearing socks, but we're all wearing socks. Is that this shouldn't be registering as anything consistent in our somatosensory cortex, because that's where all peripheral stimulation ends up when we process it first. That's where the signal goes. Right. So I reach out to the foremost EEG QEG expert in the world. His name is Dr. Robert Thatcher. He's retired now. He's in Tampa, Florida. He's written the literal textbook on QEG analysis. And I went down to Tampa and I said, bob, these socks are going to register a consistent signal on your software. Forget about my software, because I can't use my software to validate. Right? Because people say, well, this is your software. You could Jerry, rig the software. Do. Say whatever you want. So I need to go to an FDA registered product software that's used by the Pentagon and NIS and all these other amazing places. And he's the guy. I go. He's like, that's not going to happen, Jay. Just save your money. I'm like, entertainment, you know, Like, I'm willing. Because this is the resistance I've had. You talk about skepticism, bro. Nobody wants to put their name beside it because what I'm proposing is so radical. So it's this relentlessness of pushing, pushing, pushing, saying, try it, try it. I'll pay for it. Try it. I'll pay for it. Try it. So he agrees. We brain map 35, 40 people. That pattern on the bottom of the feet is consistently registering on the somatosensory cortex.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's cool.

[Sal Destefano]

Statistically significant. He's like, this is impossible.

[Adam Schaefer]

Why does he think it's impossible?

[Sal Destefano]

Because it's not something that you. You don't feel your socks, do you?

[Adam Schaefer]

No.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay. It's not registering. It's just noise. Okay. He goes, this is a very discreet. And he goes. And it's. He goes. And it's isolating to the bottom of the feet. Because the somatosensory cortex has different regions that speak to different parts of the body. That's where the sensation. He goes. He goes, this is impossible. I go, I know, but it's happening.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's cool.

[Sal Destefano]

Consistently. So how did you design the socks? So this is the thing. So now it's just math and iteration and why it costs so much damn money. Because you have to try it. You have to make it and try it again and run the EEG and test it again and test it again and test it again and again and again.

[Adam Schaefer]

You're literally, literally approaching this. Like an engineer. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

How deep are we into the socks? I'm eight now. I'm eight now. Right? You gotta make like a cool timeline. It's about eight now, right there. There's a timeline and there's the casual. And my, like my. My parents think I've lost my mind. My siblings think I have lost my mind. My in laws think I've lost my mind. The person that I give so much credit for supporting me is my wife. And she's like, you do you. Because she's seen me do crazy things in my life. She goes, if you put your head to it, there's nothing you can't do. She goes, if you want to do this, she goes, I'm with you.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's great.

[Sal Destefano]

Right? Otherwise I. Because if it was. If she said, no, we're done, then I would have stopped.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Wow. So you're creating these socks, you're changing them a little bit. You're testing with EEGs, you're changing a little bit, Testing with. And it's just literally like an engineer does with the product.

[Sal Destefano]

There's no choice. I mean, how is that not a super profitable product by itself? It is. We sold 7 million pairs globally. Oh, shit. At 40 million pair. Wow. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay. I can say we're cooping some of this money.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, a little bit. Okay, good.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, good.

[Sal Destefano]

After the fact. After the fact. We were like 810 in by time. But I sold the first one. We were 10 in. Wow, that's cool. Because it doesn't. I couldn't let go of the idea.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah,

[Sal Destefano]

I couldn't let go because I knew that if we could do it, we change the world.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, you got to be excited. You're. You're getting closer and closer now at this point, and every day you're getting a little bit closer. So you make a pattern and people say, how did you figure out the pattern? So there's a couple of things. Number one, it's iterative. It's completely unintuitive how this thing works. You think it is the way it is, but it's not. And it's also completely proprietary. Right. I mean, there's a lot of time, energy, money to figure out that algorithmic relationship between every. Every sensor in our body has a complex relationship with all the sensors around it, right. If nothing happens in isolation. Nothing happens in isolation. And it's happening in real time. And our mind is so brilliant that you got to just get it close because what are we doing? All we're doing is calibrating a skin sensation that's like a tuning fork that reminds the central nervous system what it's supposed to be. Right. So if I have a tuning fork that's tuned to 440 hertz and you have one that's 440 hertz, but yours is 500 hertz and yours is 300 hertz. If I bang mine, only yours is going to vibrate. Yours is not going to vibrate and yours is not going to vibrate. That's harmonic resonance. So all the patch does is when we put those ridges against our skin, is we're creating a tension field around that area of the skin, those receptors are firing.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's it.

[Sal Destefano]

It harmonizes it and it sends us. It collaborates that signal and our mind. We're not teaching anything to our mind. It already knows it. It's already there. It's pre programmed. That's what the database told us, that this is normative. It wants to get here Anyways. Where did you get.

[Adam Schaefer]

How did you go from socks to patches that you can wear anywhere on your body? Because.

[Sal Destefano]

Great question.

[Adam Schaefer]

You would think. I would think, oh, bottom of the foot. Makes sense. You stand on your feet. Of course that has to do with balance. Are you thinking, like, are there different parts of the body that are associated.

[Sal Destefano]

No, no, no, no. Nothing about.

[Adam Schaefer]

But also the 35 people you're testing, this was. Was this consistent across the board?

[Sal Destefano]

All of them. Every single one, 35, 100%.

[Adam Schaefer]

Same experience?

[Sal Destefano]

Same experience, all registering.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm like, okay, cool, this works. This is great. But what else can I find? The question is, what else? What other patterns exist? So the socks is going, it's great. Mom loves the socks. Her energy levels are higher. I can't get her out of the wheelchair because of entropy over time. It's just one of those things. But we're. What else can I improve? So I just start finding new neural

[Adam Schaefer]

patterns from all this data.

[Sal Destefano]

From all this data.

[Adam Schaefer]

You're using your software.

[Sal Destefano]

I'm using the software. Okay, we have this one. What else is there? Then you say, well, here's a pattern. It registers a neural network. What does it do? Then you have to go out there and look at mainstream medicine and other research saying, okay, what could this likely be doing? Somebody gives you the answer like, okay, what possible thing could this be? So then you got to work backwards, like, okay, these broadminarias relate to this. This frequency typically relates to this. Could it be this? This is why this thing is so iterative and so damn expensive, because you don't know what you have until you get into it, right? So then you have these complex patterns that to stimulate it, it's going to require very complex stimulation on the skin to do it. And I know the bottom of the feet is not going to offer me that. It's like, okay, where can I do that? Is it even possible to do it on our larger dermis, over our arms or our legs? And this is completely investigation 2017. Right before Christmas, a study comes out of Japan. This is mind blowing. These guys publish that if there's a sensation on our body, on our skin, it's permanently imprinted on a somatosensory cortex and it will recall it if that sensation is ever felt again.

[Adam Schaefer]

Meaning there's a memory.

[Sal Destefano]

There's a. There's a permanent memory in the somatosensory cortex of skin sensation. Not my findings. And all of a sudden, light bulbs like, bing, bing, bing, bing. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. What do you mean? And then I'm like. And then you have another download. But of course. When you were kids, you ever draw something on your siblings back and ask them what it was?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

How does that work? Yeah, how does that work? Think about, like, when we take all this stuff for granted, but our skin is in real time communicating Messaging and memory and recall all the time.

[Adam Schaefer]

Of course.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. I'm like, okay, so what does this mean? That means it doesn't matter where it is. All I have to do is generate that signal. How do I do it? Then you go deeper and then you spend some more money and some more time and some more energy to see how we can collaborate it. And there's no way to knit these complex patterns into the socks. Number one, it's not possible to do it. Second thing is, suppose we could. How are. When you put the socks in the washer and the dryer and they come out, how are you going to match them? Oh, yeah, there's a practical issue. Yeah, there's a product. Practical. Practical. Doesn't make any sense. Like the average person can't tell the difference between one pattern and another pattern. So how do I do that? So the second thing that we looked for that came out was sleep and then pain. That we could see clearly. Networks. Because there's so much research done in the neuromatrix of pain.

[Adam Schaefer]

I was gonna say there's a lot.

[Sal Destefano]

There's so much. There's so much. And the sleep networks are so well studied, so we can triangulate a lot more closely. This is likely sleep, this is likely the pain matrix. So we just build on that and we start eliminating and start codifying and then we get to where we are today. So that's been the development process of this thing, but completely. And the thing that saved us ultimately was 3D printing. Because when we went to the patch, now I could just 3D print it out and test a lot quicker. But the first five patches I had to do with micro tooling.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, kidding me.

[Sal Destefano]

The first patch I made, the first patch I made 1200 iterations of micro tooling to get it right.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh my God. 1200.

[Sal Destefano]

1200 iterations of micro tooling. Because what does it got to do? It's got to work no matter which way you put it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. So upside down, left, Right? Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So the complexity of over engineering is a couple, like, why they go, why don't you? Why I should have to put it a certain way. I go, nobody will use it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

If it had to be directional or located in a certain place. This is dead stick to the socks. So the thing, the reason is so complex. It has to be over engineered to work no matter where you put it in whichever direction you put it. That's the complexity of it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Got it.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. But that complexity to make requires really precise micro tooling that you have to go over and over because of it. Because you're not going to know until you make it.

[Adam Schaefer]

So for people listening, these are small patches that there's no chemical embosome. It's literally just stick it on and you can see and kind of feel. It looks like braille. It's almost like tiny, tiny bit Braille.

[Sal Destefano]

Looks like braille on a. It's micro ridges. Yeah, it looks like braille on a band aid.

[Adam Schaefer]

And that's what's creating the signal. So

[Sal Destefano]

sorry to interrupt, but the correction is the patch is not creating the signal. The skin sensors are creating the signal. The signal is endogenous. Meaning our body is creating it. All the, all that the patch is doing is creating tension on our skin and the receptors by putting it against it. Right. And then people ask, well, yeah, I can see you putting in the first time, but how's it still keeps working.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. Every movement now how so? I'm wearing one right now. Right. And I've already admitted how much I noticed a difference in the pain. Have you done tests or have you done studies where if I were to just push my finger there. Yeah. Instead, like what, what, what would that, Would it do something different or would it do anything? So surprisingly, there's a lot of research on that because I think that has to do with like acupuncture, Massage. Massage, acupuncture, all of it. So the natural thing is when we get hurt, we rub our arm.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

We're interfering with that signal.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's all we're doing.

[Sal Destefano]

That's all we're doing. We're causing another signal just to cause static on it. Right.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's why I see how it works, by the way. Same thing.

[Sal Destefano]

It's just confusing.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, even when you say right now,

[Sal Destefano]

like that's such a, like, I mean, we do it with my son.

[Adam Schaefer]

Like he hits him.

[Sal Destefano]

Oh, just rub it, rub it, rub it, rub it.

[Adam Schaefer]

But of course, it's like, it's not like you're fixing. No, no, no.

[Sal Destefano]

But it's. But this is. But we take it for granted, right? Yeah, exactly. It's not like someone. What is the mechanism?

[Adam Schaefer]

I didn't read a research paper on that.

[Sal Destefano]

I was like, you just do that. You've. You've learned innately to do that. Here's another thing, so you guys might be aware, something called sarcastic resonance. Right? Meaning that if you put noise against a faint signal, the signal becomes clearer. It's mind blowing stuff. We use the signal processing all the time. So if you don't know if the Signal is too faint. Put more noise into it in the surrounding area and the signal becomes clearer. Right. So imagine, here's an analogy. I don't know if it's right. If you have a piece of white paper and you take a glue stick and you write the letter A on it, you might not be able to see it because it's so faint, but if you put sand on it, you'll see it. You're going to see it. Right. Very similar. So the more noise you add to any signal, it's going to become clear, I didn't figure this out. This has been around a long time. Right. So that iterative process to that point. Yeah. There's been a lot of research has been done on confusing the signal or entering a new signal. Right. And this is what neural implants do. What do neural implants do? They put them in your spinal column or they put them, attach them to your vagus nerve and they're just zapping the nervous. They're trying to interrupt a signal. Right. The concept with the patch is so simple. Right. Because what we know is the skin can read Braille proved that. So all that matters is what you're writing on it. Right. And the evidence says, yeah, it's reading it and the output is there. We can see it in the EEGs, but we can see it in the QEGs, and we can see it in the functional output of the studies that we do of what is the actual effect of this thing? Right. Did we knew that I know it was going to do this? I had no idea because I didn't know what the end result was going to be. It led here by just following what the body was responding to. There's a natural science to our body that if we listen to it and we agree with it, it's like this is what it ends up at. People say, well, what if you're wrong? I go, then I'm wrong.

[Adam Schaefer]

When you did the first studies on actual outcome, in other words, I see that this is changing the EEG from more pain to less pain. But does this actually translate to the person saying, I feel less pain? When did you start, first start seeing?

[Sal Destefano]

That was so getting. See, EEGs are easy to do, relatively speaking. Right. Because it's harmless. You can do it. You can measure different EEG readings, you can run analysis on it. But to actually study a live patient base, you need to work with the CRO. You need to work with a pain specialist. Somebody understands how pain works and how it's measured and how it's Regulated. And it was next to impossible to get somebody to work with us.

[Adam Schaefer]

Why?

[Sal Destefano]

Because what I'm proposing is so ridiculous.

[Adam Schaefer]

Sure.

[Sal Destefano]

Nobody wants to put their name to it. So I'm like, okay, this is not going to work.

[Adam Schaefer]

I'm gonna pay you more. How about that?

[Sal Destefano]

No, it didn't work.

[Adam Schaefer]

I tried that.

[Sal Destefano]

We tried everything, right? So I'm like, okay, how do we solve this problem? So again, it's first principles. Who else is doing this? So there's a menthol patch company. It's the largest pain patch company in the world. It's owned by a Japanese pharmaceutical company. And I said, who did their study? And I found their study. Then I found out who the CRO was of that study. And I called him, called Peter Hurwitz at Clarity Research. And I said, hey, Peter, my name's Jay. I made a topical patch. It's non transdermal. Helps with pain, sleep, da, da, da. He listens. He's like, send me something. He goes, I don't know. He goes, send me some product. I sent him the pain patch, the sleep patch. He calls me two weeks later. He goes, I tried your sleep patch. I'm interested. He goes, but I need to meet you. Are you real? He comes to Toronto. He's on the East Coast. Comes and he visits. We spend a day together. He goes, I can't guarantee it. He goes, but we're going to call Jeff Gouden right now. Jeff Guden is professor of anesthesiology at the University of Miami. He did that other study. He was a lead investigator. And I go, who do you want? I go, that guy. The guy who's the known expert is the guy that I want to do the study. I'm not going to go to some guy doesn't know anything about this. He knows the category. And he's a professor of anesthesiology at the Miller School of Medicine. I go, yeah, that's the guy. He calls Dr. Guden from my office. He says, jeff, I'm with a prospective new client. We want to do a pain study. He goes, high level, explains what it is. And Jeff Guden says to him, let him know that no matter what the findings are, if I do the study, I'm publishing it. It's gonna cost him money.

[Adam Schaefer]

Big risk.

[Sal Destefano]

It's gonna cost him money. But we're gonna publish whatever we find. And Peter goes, he says he's gonna publish whatever he finds. I go, I hope so. I go, I'm in. And that's how I started.

[Adam Schaefer]

And that was the first study, was it on pain or sleep?

[Sal Destefano]

It was on pain and sleep.

[Adam Schaefer]

And how much, how much? Talk about how much studies cost to run because people.

[Sal Destefano]

I've got 16 peer reviewed studies published, six indexed on Pub, another three coming this year. We're about $9 million in since 2023.

[Adam Schaefer]

Now talk about the first results you had in the first study, which was pain and sleep. What did you see?

[Sal Destefano]

50% reduction in perceived pain, a 70% reduction in interference scores. How much is the pain interference in your quality of life? That was the first study we saw and this was pain that was over 4 baseline. It's going down to 2, 2 in a bit. On the sleep study, we saw people reduce their time to fall asleep by about 50% and sleeping 25% longer, waking up refreshed. The part that really changed the quality of life issue in the sleep study was this. These are all people that had bad or horrible sleep. At the end of the two week studies, 85% have good or great sleep.

[Adam Schaefer]

85%.

[Sal Destefano]

85%. Before the study, 85% were waking up three times during the night. At the end of the study, 85% are only waking up one time during the night. Complete change in quality of life. Crazy, right? And we're like, oh, this is exciting. How pumped was he when he, after he did this?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, how are these?

[Sal Destefano]

He's got to be blown away. It's like he goes, you want to go public? I'm like, no, I'm not. Because listen, not in a bad way. It's like, you need to talk to my friends at big Pharma. I go, no, no, no, no, no, no. I go, this is a whole different deal. I, I go, this is, this is not the, this is the path before the pill. This isn't, this isn't a deal to sell out to big Pharma. That's not the plan. Right. Because that's not aligned with what I'm trying to do. And I don't have anything against Big Pharma. They solve a lot of problems for a lot of people. But it's not the road that I'm on. People like, oh, you want to pick a fight with pharma? No, I want to give people options, drug free options.

[Adam Schaefer]

So these, this data, which is crazy, by the way, 50% reduction, it's like that's, that's pharmaceutical territory. Just for people who aren't familiar, like,

[Sal Destefano]

yeah, it's a big deal.

[Adam Schaefer]

Big deal. Sleep, that's a big deal.

[Sal Destefano]

And so the first one was observational

[Adam Schaefer]

and this is what got me on the phone with you.

[Sal Destefano]

What is. I mean, what is. Doug pulled this up. What is the reduction on the studies on Advil? It's not more than that.

[Adam Schaefer]

No, no, it's similar. Yeah, I was gonna say it's gotta be.

[Sal Destefano]

It's better than the menthol patch. That.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's for sure.

[Sal Destefano]

It's. Yeah, but this is. And this is 24 hour relief. Oh, by the way, the relief is 24 hours.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah. It doesn't wear off. And this is not pharmaceutical. There's no drug.

[Sal Destefano]

And it doesn't contradict with anything you're doing. So here's. Here's the impact.

[Adam Schaefer]

400 milligrams of Advil provides at least 50% pain relief.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, you're talking about in the same wheelhouse.

[Adam Schaefer]

And it's.

[Sal Destefano]

It's. And you can't. You can't keep popping Advils for 24 hours. Right. I'm just saying. Yeah, yeah, Right. So this is the impact, right? We talk about impact. For me, it's all about impact. How many lives can we impact in a positive way? People that drive heavy machinery for a living, they can't take pain pills. It makes them drowsy. We all know what it does to your kidneys. We all know what it does to your liver. This is not new. This is not data that I'm making. Right? So. But people need relief. And the reason we have an opioid crisis is because people had pain. That's how it started, Right. We will do anything to get out of pain. Right. Because it's the great thief of life. Right? So we do that. Then you take a look at sleep. There's a melatonin crisis in this country right now that no one's talking about. There will be a melatonin epidemic in the coming months. Coming years as big as the opioid crisis. People are giving it to kids.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. And the doses are crazy.

[Sal Destefano]

It's out of hand, man. You know this, right?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, it's crazy.

[Sal Destefano]

Why? Because. Oh, can't put the kid down. I'm like, really? That's the answer? Dose your kid with melatonin. That's not the plan.

[Adam Schaefer]

So first is pain. Then you go and sleep. What is the next.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay? So then we said, okay, it's great. We have this observation study. Then we have to do a control study.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Then we did it. Say, no, no.

[Adam Schaefer]

So now you got to pay with. Now you got to pay with. With a placebo with the control.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, that's done. Okay, great. Then we did stress. We did the peace patch study. 33% reduction in perceived stress and a 24% improvement in mental health factors. Without a pill.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Big was like, okay, great. Then we did that, control on that. And then we did a complete RCT study with actual functional movement with a pain patch again.

[Adam Schaefer]

So another.

[Sal Destefano]

Another one.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

Because, you know, God forbid the two were fluke.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right, right, right.

[Sal Destefano]

And these are all P values at.001, which is the gold standard of research.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's right.

[Sal Destefano]

Like, why do you have to do it? I go, because I'm up. I'm going uphill. If I was given the same leeway as nutrition, as supplementation, I wouldn't have to do what I do. Yeah, right. But because the world is completely unfamiliar with what I'm proposing, the evidence of proof is. And I don't. Listen, this is what I chose to do, Jay.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's the only way.

[Sal Destefano]

It's the only way. Right.

[Adam Schaefer]

I would have had you on the show.

[Sal Destefano]

No, but this is what you got.

[Adam Schaefer]

If you had no studies, no chance, I would have totally blown you off. I'm just being totally honest. It's so out there and so wild sounding.

[Sal Destefano]

But you forget that I'm an engineer.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, same. You're the same way.

[Sal Destefano]

No, I'm like, yeah, don't feed me shit. I'm sorry, but I don't. I'm the hardest person to get over on the math, which makes you the perfect person to do this. People give me some. I go, this is not real. Like, I see problems in Excel spreadsheets and production. Like, yeah, that's wrong. How do you know? I go, this is what I do. That's wrong. You could put a spreadsheet the size of this table in front of me. I'll look at it for 30 seconds. Yeah, see that data, that number there? It's off. They go, why? I go, I don't know. You wrote it, but that's off.

[Adam Schaefer]

So I gotta ask you this because this is totally radical, totally different from anything else. The data is wild. And you have six published studies now.

[Sal Destefano]

No, no. 16 published studies. Excuse me, six on PubMed, three more coming.

[Adam Schaefer]

So reviewed. And so this is all peer reviewed,

[Sal Destefano]

published, but this is actually better. So we've presented our research at 25 of the leading medical congresses in the world.

[Adam Schaefer]

I was just gonna ask you because this is a totally new, brand new area of research, medicine, science, but it's growing. Okay, so because of you now is. Are lots of people now investing time and energy?

[Sal Destefano]

So many. Really, so many. We get calls for collaborations from big pharma, from universities. There's a lot of things happening in the background. And. And I said, listen, I'll. My. My job and my role is impact. What I'm not going to do is give away. All right? Because, like, well, you have to. I go, listen, there's things we'll do and things we won't do. Right. I got here without you. I'm going to get there without you.

[Adam Schaefer]

Plus, you're 40 million in. You got to make your money back.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. There's an economic engine to this. Right. But this is the thing. The impact is real because of the response we've had with the product. We have millions of users across the world. The product's available in 35 countries.

[Adam Schaefer]

I tell you what if it wasn't? Because when you sent us. When you guys sent us the patches, I put on focus first because I just think it's fun. So let's see if I get more focused. And I thought I felt something like, I'm more focused. But you get in your own head is a placebo.

[Sal Destefano]

It's all in your head.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Is it all.

[Sal Destefano]

Literally, it's all in your head.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right, right, right. And then, you know, Adam's trying out the pain one, and I try the sleep one out, and I come back, I'm like, I'm telling you guys, I think this is crazy. And then I look at the study. I'm like, this is wild. Because it's not like a little bit of a difference.

[Sal Destefano]

No, it's significant.

[Adam Schaefer]

It's a really big difference.

[Sal Destefano]

It's statistically significant, and it's clinically significant. There's a. That's. That's where the rubber hits the road.

[Adam Schaefer]

Explain the difference.

[Sal Destefano]

So statistical thinking of is a math thing.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. It's like, is it more than 4% more than the.

[Sal Destefano]

Is it this? Like, it's. It's with a P value. So statistical as P value.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

Do you have enough people to get you a P value that's strong? Right. And I told the guys, I go, Listen, we gotta get 0.005 is what's required, but I want.001. Why? For me, again, it's detached from the outcome. If I don't get the result I want, that just means I gotta go back and redesign it to make it better. Who said, what if the studies didn't come back? I go, like, just the answer that. This. I didn't design it. Right. I know that this is possible because of what the EEGs. I know I can get it there. I just designed the right stimulation. So I got to go back and I got to do a better job. Right. Or a newer job. And that gives me so much freedom to not worry about what the outcome of the study is going to be. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

I'll just do it. I'll go make a better mouse trap and you do it again. Right. But if I was a public company or I took investments from people, all of a sudden it's a different game. Now you're answering to different stakeholders.

[Adam Schaefer]

Talk about my money back. Just because we have a fitness. Because you guys have a lot of different patches. Talk about the athletic performance.

[Sal Destefano]

So that's the last study that just dropped the victory patch.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, so explain. So what does the study show on that? Because we. It's obviously a 50.

[Sal Destefano]

So we did this at the University of Arizona with the athletic teams done by Dr. Mark Saker, who's head of the medical director of athletics at University of Arizona. So we went, okay, where would it be cool to do this study? So now we're getting traction because we have studies right now we're getting people that want to do studies. Weird how that happened, right? Excited about it?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

It's. Well, because if it. Because he was skeptical, too. He's like this. I go. I go, mark, but what if you're the guy that brings us to the world with me? He goes, yeah, because I'm not interested. He goes. He goes, talk to me. So I spent days with him, walking him through, step by step. He goes, this makes logical sense. I go, if it makes logical sense, there's no harm. We're going to get the irb. Everything's done. We do this. So this is what we found with their D1 athletes. A 5 to 8% performance improvement in lower extremity power, knee extension power output. And we see a statistically significant improvement in body symmetry, meaning weak side becoming as balanced as the dominant side.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

We're talking about 5 to 8% in elite athletes.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Just for people listening, like, get this,

[Sal Destefano]

like, let that settle in.

[Adam Schaefer]

That supplement ever would produce like 4%, like, if you're lucky, of some kind of a difference like this. That's like a big. For a D1 athlete, it's a big deal.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, these guys are. They're already checking all the boxes. They're peak. Best training, best nutrition, best coaching, and the best genetics. I mean, it is what it is. You don't get to Arizona, University of Arizona, playing on their team. If you suck.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's right.

[Sal Destefano]

You're in the program. Right.

[Adam Schaefer]

They're already doing all the big rocks.

[Sal Destefano]

They're doing everything and they have for a long time. You can't walk out of your bedroom and say, oh, I'm gonna go play for University of Arizona. That doesn't happen.

[Adam Schaefer]

No.

[Sal Destefano]

There's a decade before that of commitment. And if we can see the change there, I know it's going to be a much bigger change for the average person. People say, why? I go, it's real simple. We. We adapt downwards with our neurology. Yeah. Because we can't consciously speak to those systems. Right. Who taught us coping mechanisms when we were kids? Anybody?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Nobody. And stress is the number one performance robber. There is.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

And it's the number one health issue. And by the way, in collegiate sports.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

It's everything stressed out. Right. But if we want to take a look at sheer performance, this is what we saw. So we've taken this, we've presented it to all the teams in the NFL, half the teams are on the product.

[Adam Schaefer]

Really?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. We've taken it to dozens of teams in the NBA, dozens of teams in Major League Baseball. We will be in every locker room by the end of the year.

[Adam Schaefer]

Can you stack patches?

[Sal Destefano]

Yes, absolutely.

[Adam Schaefer]

And there's no. It doesn't take away from the other patch.

[Sal Destefano]

No, no, because. Because remember, all these networks are firing at the same time anyway.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, true.

[Sal Destefano]

They're all different highways. They're all different. They're all. So.

[Adam Schaefer]

So I'm thinking for an athlete, it's like peace, pain, focus, you know, focus, ignite. And you're saying, let's go.

[Sal Destefano]

So, so, so the stack that, you know, the. Because, you know, my friend Jordan, like, talks to a lot of elite athletes, Right. Like yourselves and everybody else. And I go, you want to start your day and physical performance is your thing. Put on the boost patch for energy, slap on the victory patch. And if you have a cerebral role to play, put on the focus patch. Right. If you're just hitting people, maybe you don't need it.

[Adam Schaefer]

I'm sure you have.

[Sal Destefano]

I don't.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, I don't know if you've done these yet, but have you done studies on stacking these to see if there's a cumulative effect?

[Sal Destefano]

There is. There is a cumulative effect.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Why? Because neuroplasticity is real. When I started this, every thought neuroplasticity was voodoo.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So. But when you get your neural network into a better baseline, it holds longer because that's the New normal. So over time what you find is your baseline is higher even without the patch, which is the beauty. Right. What we're working against though is life. Injury, illness, stress. Our environment is always compromising our neural networks. So what? The patch is a good restore mechanism. Bring it back to normal. Bring it back to normal. When we start building on that new baseline, that becomes our new baseline over time.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's cool.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, it's great.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's really cool. When I was thinking about this, something came to mind just. Did you look into any of the studies with like kinesio tape and like the.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, all of it. Yes. Contraceptive. There's no. I don't want anybody to get mad, but there is no study that shows any efficacy for kinesio tape athletic performance.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, but you still feel something.

[Sal Destefano]

No, but. Because I believe they're not looking at the right things. Right, but this is the analogy that I give you when I talk to sports medicine people, sports chiropractors, sports physios. Is. Kinesio tape has been around 30 years. How does it work? Well, kinesio tape is general stimulation, general signaling. Because it's flat, we've taken the same contact and add a very specific signaling to it. It's the same pathways, it's the same

[Adam Schaefer]

receptors, just much more fine tuned.

[Sal Destefano]

This is just specific, honed in on that. It's more honed in on it. Like oh, okay, now I get it. I'll go. Like I said, this is so elegantly simple that we try to overcomplicate it and we get like, it's not that hard.

[Adam Schaefer]

What's the response? Since you went, how long have you guys been to market?

[Sal Destefano]

We launched 1-14-23.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay, so it's only been a few years.

[Sal Destefano]

Three years.

[Adam Schaefer]

What's, what's the response been like?

[Sal Destefano]

It's been phenomenal. It's been phenomenal. We hardest part has got to be just convincing knuckleheads like us.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, exactly.

[Sal Destefano]

That's got to be the. To get in the door. But listen, so use your words to get to the knuckleheads like you. I needed the 9 million in studies.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep.

[Sal Destefano]

But this is. But this. Everything's a road map, right. I flowchart everything step by step by step by step by step. Right. So we launched two studies. First year we did 60 million. Second year we almost doubled 100 sales. Third year 200. We'll touch half a billion dollars this year. Wow.

[Adam Schaefer]

And so in great repurchase rate, customer.

[Sal Destefano]

It's phenomenal.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Listen, if something that doesn't interfere with your lifestyle.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, it's not, it's easy to use.

[Sal Destefano]

It's not.

[Adam Schaefer]

No side effects.

[Sal Destefano]

No side effects. You can put it in your bag, doesn't matter, take it out, doesn't expire, travel with it. Anywhere you want to go.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

No issues.

[Adam Schaefer]

So tell me, talk about the ones you have. You have pain, sleep, athletic performance. What else?

[Sal Destefano]

Stress.

[Adam Schaefer]

So stress. Mood. Mood.

[Sal Destefano]

We have immune support.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

We have men's health support.

[Adam Schaefer]

So that's like what, libido, Sex. Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

What do we cover off? There's 15 different solutions. So we have Zen, which is flow. Flow state. Zen's like one of our last products and probably one of our best selling products now.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

It gets you into flow in 15 minutes.

[Adam Schaefer]

Really?

[Sal Destefano]

That's cool.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah. The golfers are losing their mind. How cool would that be to like do that with Brain fm?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah. Oh yeah, listen, Combo. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So my friend Jordan was at this crazy golf tournament this past weekend and just given the Zen patch, I told to call first. They're like, dude, I'm in flow. I'm in zone. That's great. In 15 minutes. It's, it's epic, right? The assure patch for motion sickness and nausea.

[Adam Schaefer]

There's also, I could also imagine there's no issues with giving this, like with age issues. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

So yes and no.

[Adam Schaefer]

Oh, good.

[Sal Destefano]

Okay, tell me yes and no. There's no issue. But kids are stupid. They put everything in their mouth.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay. Don't let them eat it.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, it's a problem.

[Adam Schaefer]

Stick it in the middle of the basket.

[Sal Destefano]

I got a one year old granddaughter. Everything Rosie. No, like, it's okay. So I'm like, okay, let's just keep it 12 and above. But even 12 and up, what else do we have there? Like, you know, we talk to large sports organizations who are working with young kids, Right?

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

Supplementation, there's risk.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yep.

[Sal Destefano]

There's dosage risk, obviously. Medication, medication, There's a lot of things. Right. So here's something you can actually give to somebody to use. The worst that's going to happen is two things. They're not going to get a benefit. So we have a 95% efficacy rate. So there's 5% of people that don't see a response. And then we'll talk about why that is. And some people allergic to the adhesive. Nothing I can do.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, sure.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. So let's talk about that 5%. Why some people don't see as a, as a good result, as somebody else. There's three things from My experience in building this thing that I've noticed first is where is anybody's baseline? Where are they in their health and wellness journey? Right. What are they dealing with? Right. Are they barely surviving? Are they thriving, or somewhere in between? That plays a role. The second thing that plays a role is something that I call neuropotential. What is the potential of their neurology of their central nervous system combined with their peripheral nervous system? Got it. How well can it perform? Okay. And the third thing is neuroefficiency. How efficient is their nervous system stimulation? Those three things combined together is, Is, is. Is generally dictates the response somebody's going to get and be like, well, that's logical. I know, I know. But if I don't tell them, then. Then they go, well, I didn't get the same, you know, response as Sal did. Well, yeah, well, look at you and look at Sal. I mean, there's. There's two different people.

[Adam Schaefer]

So 95% efficacy is like, like, you can't expect.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, well, that's. So is it more or less common that somebody who is really unhealthy is going to feel the difference or not feel the difference? So the healthier you are, the more likely you are? Or like, what's the correlation? It depends. Oh, it depends. It depends. Right. So we don't talk about conditions. Right. So we're classified as a medical. As an fda, as a class one medical device.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

Right. So which means general health and wellness. For the large part. We. We could talk about the thing that's changing. So the study shows. Pain relief. The study shows.

[Adam Schaefer]

But you can't say this is for this disease migraine or this is for.

[Sal Destefano]

No, Right, Right. Why? Because now we're getting into classification of a condition and a disease which we don't want to be into. Right. So people say, look, what are you dealing with? I always ask, what are you dealing with? Aches and pains. Try the freedom patch.

[Adam Schaefer]

Got it.

[Sal Destefano]

You're not sleep well. Sleep is not a disease. Right. But if you need better sleep, do this. Stress is not a disease.

[Adam Schaefer]

Right.

[Sal Destefano]

You can have stress. It's not a disease. We all have stress in one way or another. Right. So we're very. Cause. I don't want to cause problems for myself or the company by going down roads that I don't take.

[Adam Schaefer]

Have you thought about looking at appetite suppression?

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, looking at it right now. So we know that's huge ignite patch. Does it? But we. The study's on right now, so we, we did a small pilot hasn't published. We saw about a 20 improvement in RMR with the Ignite patch and we see.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wait, wait, 20 improvement with resting metabolic rate.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

So someone's metabolism got faster.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, by 20 in.

[Adam Schaefer]

In about hundreds of calories in a study.

[Sal Destefano]

It's. It's on right now. Wow, wow, wow. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, it's fascinating. Well, that's crazy.

[Sal Destefano]

It's. It's nuts. And part of the feedback we're getting from the people to study is they're not hungry also. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

Wow. Well, that's wild.

[Sal Destefano]

But again, until it's published, we keep going.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

It never ends, right? For me, it never ends. When we started, the patch were 2 inches by 2 inches. And I found they were too big. So we spent another 6 million to make them inch and a half by an inch and a half. So the money goes fast. It goes really fast. But because, listen, if you commit to something, you have to commit to the innovation. Right? There's an inflection point in every business. There's an inflection point in any industry. And the only thing that fixes an inflection point is solving two issues. The only way to do it is either give new value to your current customers or create new value for a new base of customers. What that involves is innovation. There's a reason there's a new iPhone every year and everybody buys one. Right, right. We're all suckers. But the reality is there's some feature there that people want.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's right.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, right. And they brilliantly designed it that way.

[Adam Schaefer]

For sure.

[Sal Destefano]

But listen, but even what you guys. Gentlemen do, right? The iteration of your. Of your production.

[Adam Schaefer]

Sure, sure.

[Sal Destefano]

Of your messaging, of your commitment to yourself, there's a transformation. I saw those pictures outside. Yeah, right. You're different dudes now than you were when you started. Well, this is smarter, wiser, better. I mean, look at this place. This is a million dollar studio.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, this is. It's just. It's so fascinating, so interesting. If it wasn't for all the studies, I wouldn't have given it a second thought. But the studies are real. People can look them up, you guys.

[Sal Destefano]

They're on the website.

[Adam Schaefer]

You can find them. They're real studies. The results are legit and they're repeated. We've experienced the effects and I mean, it works. It's really wild. It's crazy. It's a completely different category. You've invented a total.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you for saying that. And so the last person. So for me, it's always about the best make the best thing. I focus on that, work with the best people, hire the best people, make the best product. Right. And so in health and wellness, the last percentile is physicians. That's where people go to get better. So my goal was to be the number one drug free wellness solution recommended by doctors. So as of this morning, we're over 5,000 MDs in America recommending our product from their offices.

[Adam Schaefer]

That's great.

[Sal Destefano]

Wow, that's cool. Why the study cell? What you said is the reference point. Right. Without that, none of that happens. No know true. Right. It doesn't work.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, but you've just created a completely new category that I'm sure other people are going to try.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, they're going to try. No, they come and they try and then. And then it doesn't work.

[Adam Schaefer]

But you've patented your stuff.

[Sal Destefano]

We protected ourselves really well. Yeah, like maniacally well.

[Adam Schaefer]

Okay.

[Sal Destefano]

And. And then so they try to copy. If they don't copy, they try to buy us. And so we're not for sale. Will you remain private? Always. That's cool. Is this a legacy?

[Adam Schaefer]

That's cool.

[Sal Destefano]

You? Yeah. My son and my daughter both work with me, so they're well in tune in terms of what needs to happen here. The goal is to bring drug free wellness to the world. Right. What the world has experienced five years ago, four years ago. I'm not down with that. People need a choice. Right option. Do what you want, but give me a choice. Give me a choice and then we'll go from there. It's the no choice part that I don't roll with.

[Adam Schaefer]

Same.

[Sal Destefano]

What are we talking about right now?

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, Jay, this has been awesome.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you, man.

[Adam Schaefer]

And I think our audience is going to be convinced. Like we are remarkable.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you.

[Adam Schaefer]

The amount of energy, time and money you spent to do this really blows me away. That's impressive. Lots of education. That's crazy. It's a lot of time. A lot. You're talking years and years and years. Tens of millions of dollars. Studies alone are super expensive. But you've literally created a completely new category of treating issues and symptoms. This is a complete new category.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, listen, you're so kind to say that and thank you. And it is a category of one. There's nothing like it. This is the reality. 85% of people in any doctor's office in America are there for one of three reasons. Some kind of aches and pain, poor sleep, low energy. Yeah, let's solve that. Let's have, let's make impact. Right. And so, you know, meeting all of you guys and south how? On the phone. I mean, this is. You guys are the cohorts that we want on our side, right. To bring this message to the world because it's all education.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

It's all awareness and education. Right. So let's do it, man. Let's get it out.

[Adam Schaefer]

I appreciate you coming on, and I know that I told you, you come on, and I question you, and have you talked about study? But, you know, like, when we talked on the phone, you were able to provide all that stuff, and it wasn't like I made it easy, but you showed me all the stuff. Yeah. No fluff, man. Yeah, dude. So great job.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, thanks. But for me, it's like, listen, it's just like, let's talk about it.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

[Sal Destefano]

I don't know. Why does that do that? I go, I don't know.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, you're not BSing. This is legit. You got the stuff to back it up, the data to back it up.

[Sal Destefano]

That's. That's the part. That's the part that people don't understand, is you got to do that. Yeah, right. You got to do that. Especially when you're thinking, well, here's this magic patch. And by the way, there's nothing in it, by the way, it's like, oh, shit, here we go, people. I go, this is not a Harry Potter patch. This is science. There's no hocus pocus here. And read the research. Nobody reads it, by the way.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah, no, that was the first thing I looked at. Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

We do something. People ask me, they go, how does this magnet thing work? I go, I don't know. I didn't make that. I made this. Actually wrote this. Just this. But no, but the category's blowing up, so. Did you hear when Nike launched that shoe? The Mind shoe?

[Adam Schaefer]

No. Oh, yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

You talked about. They got those little stimulators. Yeah, I did that 15 years ago. You guys are so old. Right? But even. But there's. But they still don't get it down. You know what? They don't have research. Do you still sell the socks? Or do you sell. Absolutely. Oh, so you do still sell socks. We do. Great. Yeah.

[Adam Schaefer]

I think that's cool. That's awesome.

[Sal Destefano]

Yeah, it's. It's awesome sauce. It's really. I just love seeing the change on people. For me, that's the thing, right? Like, you know, he goes, oh, you must be. You know, made so much money. And I go, we put it right back in the business.

[Adam Schaefer]

Yeah.

[Sal Destefano]

There's no other choice. Yeah. Right. If we want to get this to the where we believe.

[Adam Schaefer]

I mean, you pioneered something is what you've done. Really pioneered something.

[Sal Destefano]

Well, the first guy through the door always has a bloody nose, so I got that too.

[Adam Schaefer]

Well, hey man, very cool. Thanks for coming on. This was really, really awesome. Really appreciate what you're doing, you guys. And like I said, one of my favorite things about what we do and regardless of how parabolic is, I love getting my paradigm shattered. I love getting my mind changed. You totally did it. Thank you so. Yeah, great job dude.

[Sal Destefano]

Thank you dude. Appreciate you guys all. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to Mind Pump. If your goal is to build and shape your body, dramatically improve your health and energy and maximize your overall performance, check out our discounted RGB Super Bundle at Mind Grab. The RGB Super Bundle includes maps, Anabolic maps, Performance and Maps aesthetic. Nine months of phased expert exercise programming designed by Sal, Adam and Justin to systematically transform the way your body looks, feels and performs. With detailed workout blueprints and over 200 videos. The RGB Super Bundle is like having Sal, Adam and Justin as your own own personal trainers, but at a fraction of the price. The RGB Super Bundle has a full 30 day money back guarantee and you

[Adam Schaefer]

can get it now.

[Sal Destefano]

Plus other valuable free [e-mail] if you enjoy this show, please share the love by leaving us a five star rating and review on itunes and by introducing Mind Pump to your friends and family. We thank you for your support and until now. Next time, this is Mind Pump day or night. VRBoCare is here 24, 7 to help make every part of your stay seamless. If anything comes up or you simply need a little guidance, support is ready whenever you reach out. From the moment you book to the moment you head home. We're here to help things run smoothly because a great trip starts with the right support. And hey, a good playlist doesn't hurt either.