Move It or Lose It | Episode 145 | Julie Stamm: MS and Vices

Summary

Move It or Lose It | Episode 145 — Julie Stamm: MS and Vices

Date: March 18, 2026
Host: Kathy Chester
Guest: Julie Stamm

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Episode Overview

In this deeply honest episode, host Kathy Chester sits down with longtime friend and fellow MS advocate, author, and mom, Julie Stamm. Titled "MS and Vices," the conversation covers the invisible and emotional burdens of living with Multiple Sclerosis, the evolution of mental health challenges, and more candidly, Julie’s struggle with and journey away from alcohol as a coping mechanism. The discussion is warm, vulnerable, and practical, delving into subjects often shrouded in shame and silence in the chronic illness community—including anxiety, grief, substance use, and the ongoing endeavor to find healthy ways to cope, move, and advocate for oneself and others.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Meeting, Friendship, and First Impressions

• Kathy and Julie reminisce about their first in-person meeting and the surprises around each other's height and presence.
  • "When we aired the podcast, Julie thought I was going to be short like Judge Judy…I'm like 5'9'." (Kathy, 02:03)
  • “You were so tiny…you don’t stand up!” (Kathy, 02:33)
  • Sets a relaxed, authentic tone for the episode, highlighting the real-life connection behind their advocacy.

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The Challenge of Communicating About MS

• Kathy discusses the difficulty of explaining invisible symptoms to children and family:
  • “We didn’t really know what to tell our kids because we didn’t know. We didn’t understand what we had.” (Kathy, 03:15)
  • MS impacts nearly all parts of the body and mind—including cognitive function and mood.
• Julie affirms these challenges and moves the conversation into her own mental health experience.

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Depression, Anxiety, and Medication Trials

• Julie shares that anxiety, more than depression, has dominated her MS journey:
  • “I still don’t know how to properly get that under control.” (Julie, 05:04)
  • Some medications dulled her emotions: “I hadn’t cried for six months…I pride myself on being a very empathetic person.” (Julie, 05:32)
• Kathy empathizes, sharing her own therapeutic experiences.
  • The challenge of finding a therapist who ‘gets’ MS is real: “It’s just like finding another doctor—it's a smaller pool.” (Julie, 07:27)

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Adapting to Life With MS: Acceptance, Honesty, and Grief

• 19 years into her diagnosis, Julie reflects on how her perspective has shifted:
  • "I thought it was the worst thing. Now, I’m 19 years in…I have everything. It could be worse." (Julie, 08:53)
• Both stress that grief around disease evolves:
  • “We grieve throughout the years. Even with my clients and their movement, as we age, the movement is different..." (Kathy, 10:59)

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The Power of Movement

• Julie credits Kathy’s influence for her own daily routine:
  • “I have an alarm on my phone that says ‘move it or lose it’ because of you.” (Julie, 11:20)
• Movement is non-negotiable for them, but what counts as movement is flexible—vacuuming or walking counts.

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Advocating and Caregiving: Balancing Roles and Energy

• Julie discusses the evolution of her advocacy—from writing children's books about MS for her son to participating in education sessions.
  • “Talking to children…that I would say is the easiest part of advocating. It gives you more spoons.” (Julie, 13:22)
• The episode takes a serious turn as Julie describes shifting energy from advocacy to caring for her mother through dementia, and the heavy toll of the caregiver role.
  • “Caregiver is a very, very different role…can’t negate how much it affects your life and decisions.” (Julie, 14:14)

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Grieving a Parent and Emotional Fallout

• Julie gets emotional discussing grief after losing her mother:
  • “I thought I knew what grief was...it’s a different heartache, and there’s so much guilt.” (Julie, 15:25)
• Kathy provides support and shares her own experiences with grief.

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Facing and Overcoming Vices: Alcohol Use as Coping Mechanism

• Julie talks candidly about growing up with alcohol as a social norm, her enjoyment of wine, and the realization that her drinking escalated during her mother’s decline:
  • “I was having not only one bottle [of red wine], probably one, two bottles, fully functioning…” (Julie, 17:08)
  • She describes her use as coping, not pride: “As my mom was declining, I was drinking more…a couple glasses of wine to get through this.” (Julie, 18:12)
• Kathy emphasizes the courage it takes to break the silence and stigma, especially as an advocate.

Notable Quote:
"I don’t think I was an alcoholic, but maybe technically. I still drink, I’m not fully sober, but I went from drinking every single night…to, you know, hey, it’s two weeks and I’ll have a beer." (Julie, 19:31–19:46)

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Social Response & Triggers

• Julie was surprised at how many others confided in her after she shared her experience publicly.
  • "I couldn't believe how many messages I got." (Julie, 30:25)
• The presence of alcoholism in her family, and her intention to be a better role model for her son Jack, motivated her change.
  • "I'm doing it so that I'm a good role model for him..." (Julie, 30:43)

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Substance Use Among the Chronically Ill

• The conversation widens to acknowledge the prevalence of alcohol and alternative substances (like cannabis) among people coping with pain from chronic illness.
  • “If you are abusing a substance, the last thing you want to hear is somebody telling you, you really can’t do that. You’re not in the pain I’m in.” (Kathy, 25:12)
• Both women admit to using or trying various vices to manage pain and anxiety.

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Control, Harm Reduction, and Support

• Julie shares her gradual, harm-reduction approach—giving up red wine, then white wine, and moderating intake.
  • “I think it can be easier than you think it will be...for me, it was red wine is the worst, so you know what, you don’t have to give up everything.” (Julie, 28:05–28:27)
• Recognizes that for many, external motivation—her son Jack—can be the key to making hard changes.

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Impact on Family & Relationships

• Julie expresses pride at being a fun, engaged mom—both before and especially after giving up wine.
  • “I want him to know that that is who his mom was, not a glass of wine.” (Julie, 31:04)
• Kathy shares a personal story of reconciliation with her own father after his journey through—and away from—alcoholism.

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Role of Community and Support Groups

• Social media vulnerability has brought Julie widespread support.
  • "I do find comfort in sharing what I’m feeling on social media...the amount of support that I receive there." (Julie, 34:24)
• The strength of the MS community: "There’s no strangers in our group...now I have lifelong friends." (Julie, 36:39)

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Effect on Marriage and Partnerships

• Julie was initially concerned how quitting daily drinking would affect her marriage, as she and her husband had often bonded over drinks.
  • “Turns out I’m just as hilarious…” (Julie, 40:56)
• Her husband is now also cutting back, and their connection remains strong, filled with laughter and daily family time.

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "If we don’t learn to laugh with this shitty disease, then we’re really screwed." (Kathy, 10:37)
• "I wish I was numb…I wish I could turn it off. I can’t." (Julie, 16:15)
• “You'd be surprised…I couldn't believe how many messages I got.” (Julie, 30:25)
• “If you just worry about your own thing and not about everyone else...it becomes easier.” (Julie, 26:47)
• "I want him [my son] to know that is who his mom was, not a glass of wine.” (Julie, 31:04)
• "There are so many great [support groups]...go, do what you need to do right now.” (Kathy, 37:05)

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Important Timestamps

• Kathy and Julie’s first meeting reminiscence: 02:00–03:00
• Invisible symptoms and family communication: 03:15–04:50
• Julie on anxiety and medication: 04:52–05:54
• On therapy and the challenge of finding proper help: 07:02–08:15
• Julie’s 19 years with MS—perspective shifts: 08:25–09:36
• Movement as medicine and mantra: 11:20–12:00
• Julie’s advocacy journey: 12:50–13:54
• On grief after her mother’s passing: 15:25–16:19
• Candid revelations about alcohol use: 16:40–18:12
• Support and coping in the MS community: 34:24–37:06
• Impact of quitting alcohol on marriage: 37:25–41:39

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Conclusion

This episode provides an unfiltered look inside the realities of living—and coping—with chronic illness, particularly MS. Through Julie's unwavering honesty and Kathy’s supportive, practical perspective, listeners are reminded that vulnerability, laughter, and community can illuminate paths toward healing and connection. The conversation breaks stigma around substance use as a coping mechanism and encourages honest reflection, dialogue, and seeking support—whether through professional help, peer communities, or personal introspection.

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For listeners seeking encouragement, insight, or simply reassurance that they’re not alone in their struggles—this episode is a must-listen.

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Transcript

[A]

Foreign. Your host, Kathy Chester and welcome to the Move it or Lose it podcast, a podcast about all things that move the mind, body and soul. The Move it or Lose it podcast is for information, awareness and inspirational purposes only. I am not a doctor and I don't even play one on tv, so please consult your doctor before making any medical decisions. The views expressed by advertisers, guests or contributors are their opinions and not necessarily the views of the Move it or Lose it podcast. Introducing the Pulse Device. Cutting edge wearable device, revolutionary wellness. Designed to stimulate circulation, reduce harsh pain and tightness, and speed up recovery, the Pulse Device uses advanced vibro tactile technology trusted by patients, clinicians and wellness professionals. Whether you're recovering from an injury, battling a neuro condition, or just want to feel the best every day, Pulse helps you rechange, recharge so that you can live and feel better. Lightweight, powerful and easy to use. Experience better performance, better recovery and a better you. Order now and save $30 using my code Ms. Disrupted@pulse device.com the Pulse device is your health recharged? You won't be disappointed. Get it now for yourself. I have it. I love it. Go ahead and grab it.

[B]

Hello.

[A]

Welcome to another episode of Move it or Lose It. So if you know me and you know Julie Sam, you'll know that we are very close and so it's so fun to have you.

[B]

Julie, I'm so happy to be here and just see your face because we text and stuff.

[A]

Right? To see, right.

[B]

It's.

[A]

It's a person I know soon. Soon I'll be in Colorado and we will be and you'll be here. So we'll get to love on each other. But it is. I think back to when we met finally and Julie's we're going to have a little bit of this. When we aired the podcast, Julie thought I was going to be short like Judge Judy, which is funny because I'm like 5 9, so.

[B]

Yeah, well, like it felt. You felt so much bigger because we're always talking sitting down. But I felt like I know you so well and then when you were talking I was like, what in like not at all what I expected.

[A]

That's funny. And you were so tiny. I was like, I don't know why what I expected. But you were just so tiny. And I mean I'm five seven. I'm not like, yeah, sure, yeah, but you're thin and you're tiny and I didn't think you were fat, but I just. You just don't stand up I do

[B]

have a big butt.

[A]

My butt's gone. So I thought Caitlyn's like, mom, you got. I'm like, I can't do any more squats. The butts just. I keep going from, like a size 2 to, you know, these weird sizes. It's hard to keep a butt. So. No, not for me. Yeah, Ms. Is so fun. So, Julie, we met a lot, a long time ago, I think, because now I think that, like, oh, I met you last year, but really it was like five years ago or more. And I was so impressed because the first book that you wrote, because my kids were older, and I thought, oh, man, you know, that. That I supported that wholeheartedly and just would have loved that for when my kids were younger. And there was really nothing like that. We didn't do that. We were so terrified of losing our kids that we didn't. We didn't share a lot about that. And we didn't really know what to tell our kids because we didn't know. We didn't understand what really. What we had. So it was hard to communicate that to family in any way. It's still hard, but to communicate, where are you in pain? I don't know how to explain that. And why are you. I don't know how to explain that. You know, I just. I just know something's wrong. And when the. When the symptoms are invisible, it's like, you know, I. I trade. I play this with my clients. They're like, okay, I'll give you my brain if you. If you give me your legs. So, you know, it's a tough one, right? Because we know that Ms. Can obviously attacks our entire central nervous system. So it kind of can do whatever it wants, right? With our talking, with our legs, arms, cognitively, it can really mess with us. We know now that part of Ms. Is depression. That's part of the disease. It's not like, oh, I'm starting to have depression. No, that's. That's just. That's part of Ms. And so talk to me a little bit about that in writing the second book and how you felt through the years and how depression and stuff affected you.

[B]

I would say more than depression. Anxiety has been, like, a big driver in my life. I. I mean, it still is, and I couldn't really. I still don't know how to properly get that under control.

[A]

Yeah, I think that's a tough one. I believe Julie is.

[B]

And, like, certain medications make you feel worse and people. You know, I remember one medication, I was like, I. I lost Empathy.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I. I pride myself in being a very pathetic person.

[A]

Like, that's so weird. I didn't even know that because you are one of the most empathetic. I think that's why we click so well.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You're so empathetic. So, gosh, what medication was that?

[B]

I hadn't cried for six months. And I'm a crier. I literally cry every day. Like in a happy way, a sad way.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

But I hadn't cried for six months. And I was like, I don't know that it's worth.

[A]

Right. Losing yourself.

[B]

Losing. I mean, I wasn't worried.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

I didn't.

[A]

I didn't.

[B]

I just. I didn't. I didn't care.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And so I was like, maybe I'd rather be an emotional nightmare in the Right. Can handle that Are worth it.

[A]

Absolutely. I. That's what I've learned. You know, I'll tell you 100 this last year is that, you know, I took that year off of. For everything and just needed to be alone. Needed to realize, why do I attract these people that take, take, take, take. And you understand, because we have that same personality. But then if I. If I need something, it's like, they're like, I don't really have time for that. And that's not a friendship. So really taking that time to really learn more about me. We're never done with that. Right. We think, like, there's gotta be a done time that we've learned stuff. I know, but it's like, what about me attracts that? And so I think that's. That's really wise. And you do a really good job at kind of focusing in and listening and looking at, okay, this medicine is not worth it. I mean, just not me, myself and that.

[B]

You know, I tried a lot of different medicines. It's not like I tried one. You know, one would make me busy. One would make me, you know, have a really upset stomach.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You feel like I had no feelings at all and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Just couldn't find what was right for me. And, you know, I'm sure everyone in the world could benefit from therapy. I don't think our medical system makes it easy to get therapy.

[A]

Yeah. So important it is.

[B]

I mean, I haven't even done, like, I tried it and I didn't find one that worked for me. And I'm like, I'm done. I can't figure it out because it's not easy. It's not. It's just like finding another doctor.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's. It's A smaller pool.

[A]

Oh, gosh, yeah. And then to find a neuro. You know, I mean, I'm. That I'm so grateful. I haven't had the best luck with a lot of my doctors, but I'm telling you what, Julie, if I got blessed by one thing, it was the fact that I have an amazing cognitive therapist. And Julia, to the point where he can switch it off, like, with this last year and it being difficult. He could switch hats and we could go more into my life, like, making it. And. And I so appreciate his wisdom. And so that is. That's so important. And you're 100% right. It's so difficult. I'll have clients that have been looking forever, and they'll find one that maybe doesn't know anything about what we're going through, doesn't have a clue about Ms.

[B]

Right.

[A]

So. And I'm sure you found. Or they'll say things like, don't worry about that. And you're like, no, that's not correct. Like, that's.

[B]

Just turn it off. You can't just turn off the word.

[A]

Right. Right.

[B]

And honestly, like, I. I think, you know, I'm 19 years in with Ms. My worries have changed. Yeah. And it's so wildly different. And then sometimes I'm like, oh, my gosh, thank God it's not dementia. Thank God it's right. Thank God it's not me. You know, like, all these different things that it could be.

[A]

Right. It's so funny. Our female bodies and our. Everything changes all the time, you know, as we age. It just changes. Changes. Right.

[B]

And, like, you think it's the worst thing. You know, I did. I thought it was, like, the worst thing. And now I'm like, well, I'm 19 years in. I'm a mom, I have a husband, I have a house. I have, you know, everything. It could be worse. You know, I mean, I'm not. It.

[A]

Sorry.

[B]

Like, I'm not negating that. And.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's a challenge for sure. Single minute of every day.

[A]

Yes. 100.

[B]

I use my arm to cross my legs, and it's driving and my dog comes in. But, you know, I. I don't know. It's hard. It's hard to think I don't have the answers. But I do try, you know, in my social media just to show the whole spectrum of the disease and how, like, life still happens.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

How that does impact the disease, because.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Unfortunately, like, it's not only just the disease, it's everything that. Your stress, your.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, everything really Sleep, your progression, your hormones.

[A]

Like there's so many things. Yeah, okay.

[B]

My check engine lights on and I had to figure this out now, you know, for sure.

[A]

And it's like some days, you know, you wake up and you've used five spoons and it's 9am you're like, I don't know what I'm going to do today because I am. No spoons and I'm exhausted. And you are. You've always been so completely honest in any panel, in any social media thing, any talks you've given. You are always. What I love the most about you is your honesty. And you're just being very authentic about, you know, about everything. Your relationship before you got married, after getting married, um, and just the closeness that you guys have. I love the fact that there's so much joking because you really give. I think one of the best things is if we don't learn to laugh with this shitty disease, then we're really screwed. Because.

[B]

Yeah, that's all.

[A]

It can't be serious. Serious all the time because it is so dragging and so just. There can be that despair. You know, There can be. I think we grieve throughout. You know, we've talked about this before throughout the years. We grieve differently as we age. We grieve differently. Even with my clients and their movement, depending as we age, the movement is different. And, you know, explain that over and over. This is not, you know, we're not that age. We're not going to do burpees. We're not going to do that today. We're going to do soft movement that helps us for our daily life, and that changes.

[B]

So I have an alarm on my phone that says move it or lose it because of you. I swear to God, every single day. Because I have to do 20 minutes.

[A]

Yeah, I don't. Oh, I love that.

[B]

It's. It's every single day. And I cannot dismiss. I'm a weird person about. I can't have too many, like, numbers that I haven't checked out. So I can't take it off until I do something. But I do. That's awesome that I have to do 20 minutes.

[A]

Thank you.

[B]

Laundry or vacuum or.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

Go for a walk, too.

[A]

I love that because of you.

[B]

It's my reminder.

[A]

I. I really love that. And I think it's been so. It's so enlightening. It's so good for people to understand that that movement has to have, but doesn't have to be the same. You know, it. That's why so love being able to do it on my own and, you know, just talk to someone and say, you know, like, I'm looking at you and, and if it was a bad day saying, you know what the things we have planned out the door, we're gonna do this because this is what you need. So as you like going back to the stuff you wrote, the books and then you had a lot of people just absolutely love them. You had like, great response to that. I mean, and it really changed things for you. Started doing some things, some big advocating for Ms. And then tell me how that the stress of that, of the advocating and doing things versus doing things just as a family. Do you, are you really enjoying the advocating? How much is that? Do you feel like that takes from you energy wise?

[B]

You know, it's evolved because I think when I was first diagnosed, before my son was born, I was like, I, well, I can't just take this lying down. I have to find other people and I have to like, show that you're going to get through this and it's just my mission. I'm going to do it. And then when my son was born, I was like, okay, I need to explain this. I'm going to be honest with him in an age appropriate way. So I wrote the book and then I became an advocate for children. And that, that I would say is the easiest part of advocating because, yeah, honestly, it, it gives you more spoons.

[A]

Right.

[B]

When you're talking to children and just seeing their beautiful.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

Unbiased minds come up with all these brilliant ideas and then they're like, I want Ms. I'm like, oh, I made it look.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, you know, you don't. I made it.

[A]

I love that you do that. How often do you do that?

[B]

It really depends. Like, you know, I've slowed down this year, so it's, you know, but I enjoy it and I love that children understand Ms. And I love, I, I love it. But you know that my mom was diagnosed with frontal temporal dementia.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And so I became her caregiver. And that, you know, that's a, you know, a term that I don't take lightly because I can. My care partner, you know, he doesn't, he's not my caregiver, but he's a part of the journey with me and.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

The caregiver is a very, very, very, very different role.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That I can't negate how much it affects your life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And your decisions and everything. So I kind of, you know, I was still doing my advocacy Work. But I was trying to advocate for my mom as much.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

And you know, you can't do both, so.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

You're letting down one arena and then you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I'm like, oh, I should have focus more on this.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's so easy to just constantly beat ourselves up about making bad choices.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Non stop.

[A]

We just do that. I think it's a female thing more than anything is why. Why do we do. I can remember the kids being little and I don't remember an evening that I didn't, you know, lie in bed and think, I could have done this better. I should have said this. And we do that to ourselves. We just beat ourselves up. And no matter how you would have advocated it would have been, well, I didn't do this. I should have done that. And it's so easy to do. But you had to take. I mean your mom passed away this last year and. Yeah. And so talk a little bit about that. And you were a caregiver and then all of a sudden you know it's going to eventually happen. But it's like when are you ever ready?

[B]

I don't. I thought I knew what grief was and I've written articles on Ms. I'm sad about it.

[A]

It's okay. It's, you know, you can do anything

[B]

and I didn't.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's a different grief. It's a different heartache and there's so much guilt. Yeah. You know, it's.

[A]

Julie, I want to hug you. I want to come in and hug you. I'm so sorry. Um.

[B]

It's still very raw.

[A]

Yeah, of course. Gosh. I think the first year. Do you feel more. I'm going to try to do this out. Brian. Do you. Do you feel more numb or do you feel like. It kind of varies. Like some days it's, it's numb and some days it's just very emotional.

[B]

I wish I was numb. I wish I could turn it off. I can't.

[A]

Yeah. No, no.

[B]

And that's.

[A]

And that's okay. I mean I can't imagine I look

[B]

forward, you know, were talking about this. I've always it special like I've always loved wine. It's a thing. I've always been a drinker. I would say even from when I was like 12, you know, like it's just what we did in New York.

[A]

Brooklyn.

[B]

We sh on 40 ounces of oldie and we would be. It's just what we did. It was just we grew up with cigarettes and beer and you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

My tag name was back. It was so stupid, like, young. So silly stuff.

[A]

I hear so much about them from New York, from New Yorkers. Like, well, that's what we did.

[B]

Like, this is what you do at 12 years old. You're drinking.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I think I've always loved wine and I've always loved drinking. And I, I, I love the feeling of.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Drinking. I love the feeling of being buzzed. I loved, Yeah. I didn't like when I got too drunk, but that happened a lot.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And I decided in August of last year to give up red wine, which was my biggest bites, because I was having not only one bottle, probably one, two bottles fully functioning. You'd be able to not even think that I had a bottle of wine because.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Drinking it. I would, I'm very grateful that I would say I don't think my son ever really noticed because it was just, I'm very then. And I think, you know, I was playing and I was still having fun and being fun.

[A]

Mom. Yeah.

[B]

None of which I'm proud of. That I was drinking in front of him.

[A]

No. But when he's older, that'll mean so much to him that you, you went through that. And that's one of the big things that we're going to talk about today. But that you went through it and he. And you had the control and the, and the whereabout to understand that this can't happen anymore. What's going on. I can't.

[B]

As my mom was declining, I was drinking more. And I noticed, like, when I would go out to eat with my mom, even if it was like three in the afternoon, I'd be like, I need to have a couple of glasses of wine to get through this.

[A]

Because I was right. Right.

[B]

Getting so annoyed and someone that couldn't control.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

What's going on with her. But I like, if I have a glass of wine, this won't be.

[A]

Yeah, it'll feel better.

[B]

You know, like, it'll feel. And I'm not proud of that either.

[A]

Yeah. But Julie, I think the most beautiful thing is that you came out and talked about it and so few people. I honestly do that. The idea that you're going to admit something when so many people look at you, look to you, and you don't know their response is going to be. And you're admitting something that is very difficult but is huge, not just in America, but all over. And it's something that affects so many families. And, and I just, I was so proud of you and I was so grateful that you did that. And I was just like, of course she would, because that's her. And I don't think I'm alone.

[B]

And I know, like, no, I wasn't drinking alone. You know.

[A]

Yeah. Right.

[B]

I've never been, like, a drink alone or.

[A]

Yeah, but what was the response when you shared that? It.

[B]

I was really surprised that how many people were struggling with a similar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Not addiction, because I wouldn't say that I was an alcoholic. I mean, probably. Technically, I mean, I still drink. I'm not fully sober, but I. I went from drinking every single night of the week to, you know, hey, it's two weeks and I'll have a beer.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. Which is very, very different than, you know. And that's like a social hangover.

[A]

Sure, sure.

[B]

I'm gonna meet them at a bar and have a beer. And I'm like, oh, yeah, fine.

[A]

Yeah. And do you have alcoholism in your family?

[B]

You know, my dad drank when he was younger. He gave it up probably similar way to the way I did.

[A]

Like, okay.

[B]

Decided I don't want. You know, I didn't grow up with my dad in my house, so I didn't really. I don't remember him as, like, a drinker, but apparently.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know. Yeah. So he. He gave it up. I gave it. And, you know, it started as, I'm just going to give up wine and red wine. And then it was like, man, I don't need white wine. And then I was like, I don't need this. And, you know.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And now I'm. You know, people are like, you're going to feel so much more energy. You're going to sleep better, Your anxiety is going to be better. I. You're going to lose weight. None of these things have come to fruition for me because I'm probably eating Oreos way too much and all these sugar.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You know, But I think the pride that I have for doing it is there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And there's no, like, same with cigarettes. I loved cigarettes.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I had. It was a. Over a pack a day smoker. And then I was like, this is gross. It's not good for Ms. I'm gonna quit. So I get it. And this is, you know, in 2007, so.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

And that's what it. That's what wine is for me.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's gonna be no wine ever in my life again.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Okay. For me, it's just done. It's Prosecco. It's all that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All of that is out. I've just.

[A]

I'm so proud of you for that. I'm so proud of you.

[B]

It. It sounds like. It doesn't sound like a big deal, but the way that I was using it, you know, the amount of pain that. You know what it's like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

There's so much pain. And anything to, like, stop the spasm.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And the pain at night. And Ms. Did. Wine.

[A]

Did that shut it down to the

[B]

point where I would pass out, like, go to bed, pass out, and then have a poor night's sleep, not realizing.

[A]

Right, right.

[B]

But I was able to sleep, and that. That was the hardest adjustment.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Drinking.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

Is sleep pain.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Because I don't want to take oxy. I don't want to do all these other things. Baclofen and all the. You know, I just. It's just not appealing to me. So it was an adjustment. You know, I don't know how many months it is. I stopped counting because it doesn't. It's a part of me that I don't hold with pride, but I'm proud. Like, I'm proud that my son can drink out of my glass now without asking what's in it. Do you know?

[A]

I'm so. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that the thing is, Julie, is the importance of this, too, is the fact that how you did it was so. Was so great and just so honest and vulnerable. But the idea that opening this up today really is. Is on my heart to do, because I think that we have so many people with brain injuries, whether it's ms, Parkinson's, rheumatoid, lupus, that we're just in so much pain emotionally, physically, that it's like, okay, well, I'm not getting any more medicine, so I just need something. And that anxiousness, and then all of a sudden there's like, oh, there's wine. Oh, there's tequila. That helps. And so it's an easy thing. And I think it's embarrassing. You go to the doctors. What do they ask? How many. How much alcohol do you have in the week? And so is anybody honest with that? Probably not. And I know that we have a lot of MSRs that are. Don't drink at all. And I think, wow, I didn't drink with my kids the whole time they grew up because, you know, I was in ministry and. And I didn't. I don't think I had my first glass of wine till I was maybe 30 something. But I noticed for sure during. During COVID It was like a game, and then it was like oh, well, you know, a bottle, you know, we'll just try tap into that and we'll drink more. And then I think could be that

[B]

girl that could just have one glass and, like, sit at dinner and have that one. I'm not.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I had to be honest with myself and realize, like, I am not.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I am. Yeah, I have one glass. I have to finish the bottle because it's not going to taste as good the next day. And then. Oh, no, I opened another one.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I think it's. So whether it's, you know, an actual. I think wine is the easiest, you know, because it's, like, there. And I think the opening this up for. And I want to do this more and more because I think the amount of pain that we have with an autoimmune disease is. And like we talked about, emotionally, we don't know what's going on in all of our lives, whether there's abuse, whether there's just the fatigue, the pain. But we do know that a lot of our people that are so close to us turn to either alcohol or other things even to help that pain. We've. I have used cannabis for sleep, but I see a lot of. I get a lot of questions, and I know a lot of it is abused, and it's been, okay, well, this helped with sleep. So maybe throughout the day, I'll just. I won't do this, this, and this, but I'll just, you know, I'll do edibles all day or I'll just smoke throughout the day. And so it becomes something that people get really sensitive about, as you know, because if. If you are an alcoholic or you are abusing a substance, the last thing you want to hear is somebody telling you, you really can't do that. You're like, f. You. You're not in the pain I'm in. You're not in my body. I'm going to do what I feel is help.

[B]

Yeah. And I think I. I think I was not. I think I was probably guilty of justifying it all the time. You know, like, anyone that would question, I'd be like, you have no idea what this is. Like, no idea the fight or flight mode that I'm in right now.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Management of, like, my.

[A]

Right.

[B]

My mother's health, like, being a. The. The mental juggling and.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And then just. I knew, like, my MRIs were progressing. I'm caring for my mother. It just was so much the way you overstimulated. Overstimulated. Just running on empty. Fight or flight mode. Literally falling over, not from being drunk, but looking like that.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Might as well be drunk then, you know.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Like, just all these things and just.

[A]

Right.

[B]

So I did hear, you know, and I think of this a lot. No one ever worries about, like, what's in there. Like, if you're worried about someone else, what they're drinking, you're really thinking about yourself. You don't want to be alone.

[A]

Interesting. That's very interesting.

[B]

True. Because, like, yeah, I don't care what someone else is drinking, but when I was drinking, I wanted everyone else around me to be drinking.

[A]

Yeah, very true.

[B]

Feel better about drinking because I was like, sure. And they were all doing it, but if I was out and a bunch of people were sober, then I would feel like I had to be sober.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, if you just worry about your own thing and not about everyone else, it becomes. And like, you know, getting. I'm not fully sober. I say this all completely dry. I will have a beer. I will have ranch water or whatever.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It. I. I don't plan to become fully dry, but I can tell you that I did not think I'd be able to give up wine. I did. I really didn't. I thought that was going to be just as hard as, like, smoking, which I was. Was very hard to do.

[A]

Right.

[B]

And it was. It. It was the first week and then it wasn't. And how. There are, like, ways to do it, and I'm happy.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Give tips and tricks. That worked.

[A]

Yeah. Yeah. I'm sure that you'll be asked about that, because they. Yeah. I mean.

[B]

And yeah, I would always look for an excuse like, oh, are we going to a kid's birthday at 12? Are they going to be drinks? You know.

[A]

Yeah. Right. I can get some Baileys in that.

[B]

We gotta make sure we have alcohol at this kid's birthday party. Right.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Yeah. So I think. I think it can be easier than you think it will be because it.

[A]

Oh, yeah. Well, I'm just so proud of you because I know so many people that have tried gone to rehab and then it. They just go back to it.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I. You know, that one step at a time. Like, for me, it was. Red wine is the worst.

[A]

So.

[B]

So you know what? You don't have to give up everything.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Because, you know, I know I was slower with white wine. So I was like, okay, then I'll just have a couple of glasses of white. And I was slow. And then I was like, all right, I can give this up now. Let's slowly eliminate.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

The things that I really love and enjoy and then.

[A]

Which I think is wise. I think sometimes people can do that where it's just, boom, they take it out.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And always my concern with that is that, um, you know, gosh, you know, my family and I've. I've had so many. I have so many alcoholics in my family. And with my dad was the hardest because he became more violent as I grew older, and the alcoholism became worse. You know, of course, looking back, he was a Vietnam vet. The stuff that he had to endure, see do. Was, you know, and then they. He had his foot almost blown up, so they sent him to Japan. Morphine. Morphine, Morphine.

[B]

So.

[A]

So then you come home, everybody hates you because you were in Vietnam. So, you know, the reasons I think are. Are there for. You know, nobody decides, you know, when they're little. I want to be an alcoholic. I know that for sure. I want to be a pilot. I want to do this, but I want to be a drunk as well. So, you know, some things in our life happen. There are addicts throughout our family. I know that. I really had a watch. I was watching so close when I'd have wine, like, okay, do I want more? Do I. Can I stop? Do I still want it? And. And I think that this. I wanted to have just an open place for people to share that. Yeah, this is so hard. And, yeah, what makes me feel good is, you know, some tequila or a little bit of whiskey or wine or. Those are the things that I feel are making it easier. And I don't have to report all the drugs that I'm taking. When I go to the doctor, I don't have to say I'm taking da, da, da, da. That. And so I think it's just something that is way more prevalent than is talked about.

[B]

You'd be surprised. I couldn't believe how many messages I got. And I do. I do think a reason why it was so much easier to give it up is because I have my son. That's my reason. You know, like. Yeah. I don't know that I would have if.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

If I didn't have him, because.

[A]

Very interesting.

[B]

I'm. I'm doing it so that I'm a good role model for him. So when he gets older, he's proud of his mom and not, like, alcoholic and, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I have no doubt that I have been a very fun mom this whole time. I have no doubt that, like, I still am. Like, we're still playing video games. Together, we're still playing Lego. Like, we still do everything.

[A]

Well to see you. You're just so fun with him.

[B]

Just like I love my life with him, and I want him to know that that is who his mom was, not a glass of wine.

[A]

Well, to encourage you and others. This last year is the first time that I saw my dad in 20 years. And my prayer was always, you know, when. When I first did that, he was very, very much in the prime of his alcoholism and very abusive, and it was very hard to do. My brother and I both made that decision, and my brother first, because me being the girl and the oldest, I was like, no, we can still help. We can still change it. And honestly, when we did it the first, like, we're gonna. We tried boundaries, all those things, and it didn't work. And I could say I really thought, within a year, of course, losing your daughter and son, you'll definitely stop. And it was year after year after year, and there was no stopping. And if anything, it got worse and worse. And every year I took time that I would just spend time alone, praying and fasting just for my mom and dad and, you know, please let him set that damn bottle down. And his was whiskey and, you know, bad to the point where I knew how to make his whiskey and coke when I was like, six. So. Yeah. But what I can say is that, Julie, it has been amazing. He kind of not exactly the same, but he was in the hospital and he really felt, you know, whoever he felt like God was really speaking to him. Not, you know, God coming down from the heaven and saying, you know, here you go, but if you put that bottle down, you will see your daughter. And he put it down. And. And months and months, a year later, we have a relationship. And it has been so such a blessing to have my dad back, my daddy, and have him to hold me, hug me, and. And the same, you know, being there for them. And it's been. It's been amazing. And so I just couldn't tell you how much that fills a void. And so those of you listeners that think it's too late or you've lost a relationship with your kids, your kids naturally love you forever, and they want that relationship. So you just being vulnerable as an addict, it opens the door for so much healing. So.

[B]

And I think even, like, I don't think Jack has any bad memories around me with alcohol. I'm grateful for that. Like, I don't. Yeah, I think I was. I have some memories that I'm like, oh, I wish that night.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Or whatever. But I don't. I don't think he does. And I'm glad that I stopped it before he couldn't.

[A]

Yeah. So good. Because it is. You know, as the oldest, I have my memories back, you know, from a little girl. But the thing, Julie, is that he's going to remember that you stopped. That's what he's going to remember. And I mean, I remember when my dad stopped smoking. I remember all the things, and so he's going to remember those things. And so, you know, those of us who are really struggling and we've got kids and they're. We're worried. Like, you were like, this is. I can't continue this. How is he going to look at me? And I think it's important to reach out to the support groups that you feel safe in. Where would you say would be the places that you felt safe to reach out?

[B]

I know this sounds crazy, but I do find comfort in sharing what I'm feeling on social media, like whether it be on my Instagram and then the amount of support that I receive there.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

I find comforting.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And as much as I put myself out there, it's hard to talk about some of this stuff with.

[A]

Right.

[B]

That you're in everyday life with. And you know this. And we both know this. Like, MSers, we can get on the phone. I just talked to Joe yesterday and I talked to Damien, you know, like I talked to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah.

[B]

But we don't. We skip the pleasantries. We don't care.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

What's the weather like? You and I, we didn't even talk about.

[A]

Yeah, no, we didn't. No.

[B]

Bust right into, like, what's going on. Real life stuff.

[A]

I do believe that the MSRs more than any of you know, because I have. I collect them like Pokemon cards. Yeah. But other than I feel that there is a difference between the Ms. Community. There is a real. Which Damien. Call me, I text me. We haven't talked.

[B]

Damien.

[A]

Damien. Damien. Damien. So I do think there is a. There is a closeness that I've never seen any other communities. There is a place where. Whether it's TikTok, which I would never have guessed, but you know, whether there is that, like, okay, what can I. What can I do? I know I'm far away, but I can still do things for you. And I don't think I've seen that in any other community. Would you agree with that?

[B]

Yeah, completely. And just know, like, all of our symptoms are so different. Like each of us have different ms, different types, different symptoms, but we get it because, like, that. The mental burden of this disease.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

And like, even you and I, we can walk around and hide it like.

[A]

Yes.

[B]

No. By looking at us. Hey, you have ms, but we're like, the bathrooms are up there to your left.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

How many steps there's a seat. Like, we're constantly serving.

[A]

Right. Yeah.

[B]

Other MSers get that because we're all doing the same thing in different ways. But, like, it. It's a very tight community. And there's no. You don't. There's no strangers in our group. Even if you get introduced to a new. You know, we have a support group. I have it with a couple of other MS's.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That joins. They don't come on and feel like they're introducing themselves and just.

[A]

Right.

[B]

They leave feeling like, now I have lifelong friends and.

[A]

Exactly that. And that's so, so important. It's that, you know, whatever support group. And it's okay to be in more than one. You need support. So there are so many great ones that, you know, I love it when I get, you know, women in because the one that I do is just with women, and I love when they're like, well, I'm in this one, and this is almost like asking permission. I'm like, go, do what you need to do right now.

[B]

As many as you want.

[A]

Yes. There's times where I didn't want to be in one. Yeah, Absolutely. Absolutely. I 100% agree. How has it affected relationship with your husband, who I'm. I get to see again, too. See both of you. How has that affected you guys with slowing down with alcohol?

[B]

You know, I was. Not that I was worried. Yeah. I think I was a little worried because we've been like, drinking buddies for the last 14 years and we've always drank together. We always have, you know, our dates and.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Like every night we would have our whiskey. It was just like routine. And like, every night wasn't. We weren't drunk. Like, it was just.

[A]

Right.

[B]

It's just not a good thing to do every single day.

[A]

Right.

[B]

You know, at some point your body is going to be like, yeah, yeah. And at first I was worried about it, and then I noticed it didn't really impact, like, we were still laughing, we were still joking.

[A]

Right.

[B]

All the time.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

And so just three weeks ago, he decided to cut down. So he.

[A]

Okay.

[B]

You know, so. Which is.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

A big shift because he. He never gets drunk. Like, he drinks.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

You would never know that he's had it.

[A]

Right.

[B]

His personality doesn't change. He doesn't slow his words. He doesn't have difficulty. What. Like all the things. Like my Ms. Symptoms get worse. So I have had two glasses of wine, still sober and fallen over. And then right in my head. Now everyone thinks I was drunk, you know.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like. Or slur my words or bite my mouth or the million other things that I've done when I'm not even drunk. But it looks like I am.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So I. I wanted to take away that excuse for people.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Oh, she was drawn. Like, no. Not that I've ever run into that. But mentally I make up.

[A]

Yeah. Because that anxiety gets there. Like, oh, they're gonna think this and I'm not. And so.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's all those little things that play a part in it.

[B]

Exactly. And so he decided on his own. I did not want to pressure him. He knew. You know, I always tell him, like, it's the third of the month. This is this month that I've given it up. Or, you know.

[A]

Right.

[B]

Gave up. August 3rd is the day. So I. I always just tell him. And then the other day I was like, oh, you're. You know, it's five o'. Clock. You haven't. Because we were five. And he's like, no, gonna tonight. I was like, wow. And, you know, we have a routine every night. Jack has a shower. We play two.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

That we just, like, connect. It's just what we do.

[A]

I love that.

[B]

I love it too. And it's just such a good time to, like.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

For me to be.

[A]

So many families have gotten away from that, you know, and it's like, wait, go back to the table. Like, at least, you know, a couple, especially when they get older, at least, like, spend two, you know, because once they've got practices and you've got. If there's three kids, you're like, okay, what day can be dinner night that we're all together? So I remember that being so tricky to do. But don't lose that. And even if it's like, time, it's so important because they remember that. I mean, my daughter with the new baby. Well, not new. She's a toddler now. I know. I'm like, don't grow anymore. But, you know, it's. It's really neat to watch the things that you did with them and have them repeat it when they've got their little one. And it's like, oh, I can't wait. It's so cool. And she'll be like, well, Mom, I Got that from you. And I'm like, oh, thank you. So, you know, it feels good to know that the things that you're doing now, you know, in a good way. When you don't see. Is there a return on this, like, you see it later on, you know, which is really cool. So I love that. I love that your honesty about. Because I think that's a fear that a lot of us have with our significant other, is that, well, this was what we always did, and if I don't do this, what is that going to. How is it going to affect. Am I going to be as fun? Is he going to want to be around me? Or is he going to want to do something different? Because I'm not the drinking buddy anymore.

[B]

Right.

[A]

I'm not the one.

[B]

I did. It's crazy because it turns out I'm just as hilarious. No, I'm just kidding. No, but he's so much fun. Like, he's been very supportive, and I think it was, like, an adjustment for sure, because, you know, even when we go to people's houses, like, I'm always bringing bottles of wine and.

[A]

Right, Right.

[B]

I will bring a bottle, but I'm not having it.

[A]

Right, Right. And I think that's awesome, too, that you're doing that. And I think that is key, too, because, you know that I. I have been dating a little bit, and I love the fact that he's not a drinker and that's just what he never has been. But he doesn't look at me if I order a. Like, whoa. Like, can you do that with your Ms? Like, that's. There's no judgment, you know, it's like,

[B]

the way it should be. And I think that's it. Like, if you. If you are out there, anyone in the world, and you can have a couple of glasses of wine and feel completely, like, happy and cool.

[A]

Right.

[B]

I mean, people are normal drinkers. I would say that my habits. The last. Not my whole life, the last five years of caring for my mom. Yeah. Became too much.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, yeah. I would not want my son to look back and, like, hear the recycling, you know?

[A]

Right, right, right. Yeah. Like, very good. Yeah. Very smart. Yeah.

[B]

And it's not. It's just not something I was proud of.

[A]

So it was.

[B]

I will.

[A]

I just. Again, I'm so proud of you. And I want to do more stuff with this, and I'd like to do a podcast together with. With some people who are. Who have felt like I'm abusing some things, and we can do that. Together. So, like, I asked you while we're on.

[B]

I love it. I'm in. I'm like, I can name some people, but I'm not going to do it while we're.

[A]

No, it'd be good. We'll do it. Yeah, don't do that. But you know how much I love you and I love that, that we were able to share today about, you know, real again. It's just when we do stuff, you know, whether it's you and Don, we did that one last year. Time for me is all over. But it's just the reality and I think the strength in numbers and we are just authentic. So thank you so much and I love you so much. I love that you're willing to come on and talk about this stuff because it. It is so difficult. So I love you.

[B]

I love you. Thanks for having me and absolutely you in Detroit.

[A]

Yeah. Okay. You hold on, guys. Don't forget to, like, give us your feedback, like, and please subscribe because that's the most important thing. And a lot of people don't do that. And so that helps us a lot in our podcast. So I will see you next week with another edition of Move or Lose It. Have a great day. Thank you again, Julie.

[B]

Thank you.

[A]

Thank you so much for joining me for another episode of the Move it or Lose it podcast. It would mean the world to me if you subscribed and left a review. Remember, you can find me on Apple, Spotify, Stitcher, and YouTube. New episodes of the Move it or Lose it podcast air every other Wednesday. If you have any suggestions for future guests or topics, please visit my [e-mail]. until next time. Till next time.