← My Food Job Rocks!
My Food Job Rocks!
What Does It Take to Become Department Head? with Job Ubbink, Food Science Professor and Department Head at University of Minnesota
01:02:18
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- [00:03]
Adam Yee
What is your food job? Rock.
- [00:05]
Dr. Job Ubink
I must, I can combine my interest in science. I can combine it with what people's interest in people's lives and I think just amazing. I must say I had it already in industry, I must say, being a professor and then also, you know, connecting with people. I'm working with a very diverse team of people here from the food science, the food engineering, the food safety site, you know, all of that. But then also think about nutrition. We're really strong on community nutrition and, and we're so collegial here. Know, I think that's the reason why, you know, my job at Food Science Rock.
- [00:39]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Welcome to the My Food Job Rocks podcast. A podcast where interview experts in the food industry and learn about their career paths while gleaning some interesting insights that might help you in your career. I'm your host of food scientist Adam Yee and today I'm talking to Dr. Job Ubink, Department head in Food science at the University of Minnesota. A little bit background.
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Adam Yee
He was trained as a physical and
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Podcast Host / Narrator
polyper chemist at the University of Leiden. I'm going to butcher a lot of
- [01:03]
Adam Yee
these names by the way.
- [01:04]
Podcast Host / Narrator
They're in, in a bunch of different countries, so forgive me, but the University of Leiden is in the Netherlands and He attained his PhD in chemical engineering and material science at Delft University of
- [01:15]
Adam Yee
Technology, also in the Netherlands.
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Podcast Host / Narrator
He's also worked for over 15 years in R D positions in the food industry, including 11 years at Nestle Research center in Switzerland. Prior to joining the University of Minnesota, he was associated with California Polytechnic State University in San Jose, Obispo, by the way, I went there and it is an awesome school. The University of Bristol and the TH Zurich in Switzerland. He was a visiting scientist at Moscow State University in Russia and has taught as a visiting professor at the School of Food and Engineering in the University of Capinas in Brazil. His research focuses on material science of high solid foods, including powders, extruded cereals and plant proteins.
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Adam Yee
He also has a passion of the
- [01:55]
Podcast Host / Narrator
role of processing in our food system and on supporting community based food processors. At the University of Minnesota, he teaches on courses on food culture, food material and food innovation and product development. All that we'll kind of touch on on this interview. I met Job actually I think a little bit when he was department head at Cal Poly and then also just throughout kind of, you know, the food industry circuit. He did a talk last year at IFT with a bunch of food department head communicators and he recognized me there, which was nice. And then I actually saw him presenting at a course that A professor at NC State, Dr. Salvi asked the if I was interested in joining the seven hour course. Just, just kind of to see if there was anyone interesting there. And I saw Job's name and I was like, oh, I know that guy. And I think he was a very good presenter, very energetic presenter. So I messaged him saying, hey, I liked your talk about, what was it, wait permits. And then I got him on the show. Anyways, I think what you'll notice in this interview is Job is extremely, well, diverse as a food scientist. He not only has his advanced degree, but he also was involved really heavily in industry from Nest Divide on. And I think this is important to keep in mind is that he then decided to switch to academia and then eventually headed up the department in Minnesota. So he, you can tell in this interview he's just extremely passionate about everything he does. And I think, I think this is a really good example of just how to get so just into food science and just how to push it to the limits in a sense. I mean, you know, you stretch academically to the highest degree, you work at the top food companies in the world and then you decide to become an apartment head. I think it's just really cool how Job has evolved his career throughout his whole life. In this interview, I really enjoyed his take on food science as kind of, well, the size of food, essentially one that includes people, communities, culture and the way we actually live with food.
- [04:02]
Adam Yee
It gave me a lot to chew on.
- [04:04]
Podcast Host / Narrator
I really like his career advice at the end of this podcast because it really combines his industry experience and his academic experience and how it could be useful to you. And basically, if you want to make a real impact, food scientists need to learn how to sit at the same table as marketing and finance, not just the engineers to really get things done and make an impact in food. Anyway, that and a lot more. I know you'll enjoy this interview with Job. I'm sure you'll learn a lot.
- [04:32]
Adam Yee
All right, well, anyways, we've met quite a bit, I would say, in different paths of life. And one is that you were a department head at my old university, cal poly. And two, we've met a bit at IFT. And three, most recently, Dr. Salvi, who is a professor at North Carolina State University, invited me to kind of just whenever I wanted to joined this course that I think is a multi, multi college collaboration. And I saw that you were speaking there. I thought what you had to say was really cool. And so I reached out saying good job. And now we're here doing a podcast. So. Yo, how are you today?
- [05:14]
Dr. Job Ubink
I'm good. It's been a really busy week. Our spring break is done, so the first week back in on campus, I did some teaching. A lot of other things going on, so been a really busy week, but a really good week. And by the way, the weather in Minnesota went from, I think, -2 or 3 on Tuesday morning to I think we're in the 70s tomorrow. So I think we have had a lot of change here in. In weather conditions from winter to spring.
- [05:39]
Adam Yee
Wow. Minus. Yeah. I thought Raleigh was bad. We. We had some, you know, freezing temperature, but that's like 32 degrees Fahrenheit, and now it's like around 60 degrees Fahrenheit. So it's, it's, you know, things are. The weather. I'm sure that's always common in Minnesota, though, right?
- [05:56]
Dr. Job Ubink
It's very common that it flips like that. It changes really quickly, so I hope it stays. It's not excluded. We might have some snow later in, even in April, but it looks pretty decent for the coming weeks, so I'm really going to enjoy that.
- [06:11]
Adam Yee
And what do you. What did you teach? What are you teaching this semester?
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Dr. Job Ubink
I'm actually teaching this semester. It's a nutrition course. It's actually what we call Food, Customs and culture, a course that I introduced here with some colleagues following the killing of George Floyd five years ago. And it's so about the food, customs and culture, primarily United States, but we go around the world. It's basically a really good vehicle to talk about, you know, us as a society in the United States with the regional patterns of settlement, individual groups who came there, people settling there, families settling there, and how they build up their food system and how they're still taking on some elements from their traditional cultures and how it actually morphs into this really rich and diverse US Food culture. It's a course I love teaching. I have the students also presenting their own culture. We have a shared food culture presentation for extra credit. And with this semester, we have. The students are really killing it. It's just a fabulous series of all that share your food culture and always learning from it.
- [07:14]
Adam Yee
Remember taking something like that in Cal Poly? Actually, I don't know if that was a common thing that everyone was doing, but I really enjoyed at least learning about different cultures. I think it's also a very good way to just imprint things on just how we view food and where we eat it and how different people, I think, view food Because I think everyone views food differently, right?
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Dr. Job Ubink
Yes. And actually just to be very clear, I first drawn into the equivalent course of Cal Poly. This one is a bit different. It goes a little bit more into the history and in the Spanish of settlement and in the anthropology and sociology of people. But definitely I know it from Cal Poly. Couple of the sections there as well. Been one of my favorite courses to teach. I also teach food science courses, graduates level courses in food science. Food material science is a course I taught last semester. A couple more to my industry work and to my research. So also really love doing that. But I must say this course, which is also general education. So you get such a diverse group of young people in the classroom and it is just amazing stories say young people. Every semester we have also one, two or three seniors who take it because they can just for free or for very little. And they say, hey, cool topic. Also sometimes really great if someone who's been already through a lot of life experiences so also presents maybe such an extra credit assignment with their food culture. So it's really a good place for discussion from learning and appreciating differences and similarities between, you know, all our backgrounds. And I realize that here in the United States, everybody has a story.
- [09:02]
Adam Yee
100% agree. Everyone has a different, you know, whether wealth, class or race or ethnicity. It's all food is. Obviously we have to eat it, you know, one to three times a day. And I think everyone has a way we think about food, which I think we'll dive into pretty heavily in this podcast. Not only in like a cultural perspective, but also specifically a professional perspective. So job, I'd like to understand, I guess, how you got into food science and how did you essentially get into where you are today As a department head, I'd love to start like, what did you, what did you go to college for?
- [09:41]
Dr. Job Ubink
Actually, I didn't even know that food science or nutrition existed. So actually I was always pretty good in the natural sciences. I was also pretty good in, you know, in languages and I loved actually business as well. But then I thought, you know, still a natural science degree could be good. So I chose chemistry. I have an inclination also for physics, but I thought chemistry would be. You can apply chemistry everywhere. So I studied chemistry without actually being maybe too much interested in it. But then I thought it was a really good foundational major where you can actually go in a lot of different directions with. So I think that was a good insight. Even though I had no clue where I would be ending up in my career, one experience actually during those scholarship years for me were very formative. And by the way, I'm from the Netherlands. So I took my university degrees in the Netherlands in my second year as a sophomore student, an undergrad in chemistry actually I landed a part time job in a local French restaurant. Really gastronomic level. Oh, very cool. You know, it was at the time Michelin star rated, which pretty few residents in the Netherlands who had it. And that was next to basically my science training at the university team, which I must say, and I love science, but I feel there's more to it. And then I was in the restaurant and working as part of a team. All kinds of menial jobs. No, nothing special there definitely initially. But then I realized there are also people who have the vocational training and that's focused on the skills, on the knowledge in this case of the products and the ingredients, on the creation of new things. I could see just the passion of these chefs, younger chefs to, to, to the more seasoned ones, the really the, the ones that actually earns at the end, the Mission Land stars, really the passion for your job. And that's, that's been, you know, we use the word a lot these days. But that was really transformative for me. It says, hey, there's a whole world outside of the scientific thinking. So. And I kept that. It was latent for me. I love cooking, I love good food. It's really essential to me. But then I went to do my PhD study which was formerly in a discipline, chemical engineering material science. It was more on the biophysics side. Had to do with a. And some kind of structures in viruses and these type of things. But you know, formerly chemical engineering material science. And it could have gone on with my career in that doing a postdoc or something like that. Actually I got an invitation from UC Berkeley. I declined that because I wanted to go to industry.
- [12:14]
Adam Yee
Hmm, okay. Why did you decide to do that? Why did you need the money? I don't know. That's what I hear a lot of currently. But I'd love to hear that decision.
- [12:23]
Dr. Job Ubink
To me, sure, money factors in some sense, but my main are actually the dominant argument was it, you know, if you're still pretty young. I think it was 28 or 29 at the time. I think you should benefit from those years to also not only build a depth to your career, but also the whole breadth. And I thought I don't know too much about industry at once. I think before my PhD study worked for a couple of months as a troubleshooter in a paint factory for Automotive.
- [12:54]
Adam Yee
Oh, interesting.
- [12:55]
Dr. Job Ubink
So it was kind of a good experience. I'm glad to end up in a career in automotive. Very good careers, but not for me. But so after the end, towards the end of my PhD study and actually I went into my PhD study already knowing that I would want to spend at least some years of my career in industry and had an interest in food. And then also, and I think that's one of my few insights that have really borne out. I thought that food would become front and center stage in our society. It was not. Also people, why are you going there? You know, you can do research everywhere. So say, yeah, but I think foods could be really, really good area for the future. I was actually lucky then. I was, via a friend of mine, connected to a company in Switzerland. I was still based in the Netherlands. I traveled a lot. And I also, you know, during my undergrad, I spent some time in England. During my PhD study, I spent some time at Moscow State University, which was.
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Adam Yee
Oh, wow.
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Dr. Job Ubink
What was fascinating. Well, then I was connected over a friend to a opportunity for a physical chemist at Givaudent, which is the flavor company, Flavor and Fragrances. I relocated to Switzerland, which. And I stayed there 70 years. I love living in that country. I loved actually the work. And what I found out in my first job in Givaudan is that there's still a need for real physical chemistry. And I saw some groups being really successful in making actually a business case for that in flavor encapsulation and flavor release. And the modeling of flavor reformulation says, oh, wow, that's great. What do you know about thermodynamics and physical chemistry? I can straight apply and really almost predictive in how you reformulate a flavor from one type of product matrix to a different. Well, for instance, with different types of fat contents.
- [14:53]
Adam Yee
So.
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Dr. Job Ubink
And really said, okay, that science base is really important. I love doing that science and I can do that here, really in an industry setting.
- [15:02]
Adam Yee
So let's, let's kind of clarify what physical chemistry is. It does sound like that's like kind of your specialty, right? I love to, I don't want to say dumb it down, but, but just quite simply for, for, for the audience, what is the importance of physical chemistry? And I think we all know Givaudan is essentially a really big flavor house. How does that work with them in a sense? Or were they doing other things too, because they're such a big company?
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Dr. Job Ubink
So the physical chemistry describes basically the physical properties of solutions, maybe even concentrated solutions, dispersions, foams up to pretty solid materials. If it really transition to solids, where I work on most these days, that's more material science. And you can apply thermodynamics to it. You know, things like phase transitions and if talk about flavor, things like volatility and partition coefficients. So how these flavor compounds distribute between the different phases, a lipophilic and a hydrophilic phase in your food and how then they release into the head space when you can smell them. So that's typically physical chemistry. So it's based really on the application from pretty classical thermodynamics up to more modern solution theory and polymer science. And then you want to apply it in a sense that really impacts in a predictive manner what you do with your food. And that's been for me, my adventure in the industry to sit, you know, my first spot at Givaudan Said, where actually there was a great researcher, Christa Roche, working on the flavor release modeling and he had a huge impact on the business. Actually I really enjoyed Givaudan. But after a year and a half I was, you know, someone connected with me, me with Nestle, the Nestle Research center in Lausanne, French speaking part of Switzerland. She would always in the German speaking part. Really good for your languages.
- [16:49]
Adam Yee
How many languages do you speak?
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Dr. Job Ubink
I think I speak five languages.
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Podcast Host / Narrator
Okay.
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Dr. Job Ubink
Yeah.
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Adam Yee
Wow.
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Dr. Job Ubink
So it's really good to learn them. So then actually the Nestle connected with me on encapsulation in relation to nutrient delivery and probiotic stabilization in all the foods that we're developing at the time. And I couldn't say no to that. Of course the scale of the company, but also their significant investment in R
- [17:15]
Adam Yee
and D. Yeah, that makes sense.
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Dr. Job Ubink
And then actually they loop me really quickly in a project on soluble coffee coffee Roman and said, hey guys, this is not what I was going to work on, probiotics. So a lot of back and forth to the listeners here, especially if you're in the initial career phases, you can negotiate, you can make a case. If I wouldn't have taken care, I would have worked 100% of my time for coffee and beverages business unit. But so actually at that time I started already applying it to various fields within Nestle. And actually I really enjoyed my work for coffee and beverages. It's a top business unit, but also really valued working for the other business units, including nutrition and the culinary side and did a bit of work for ice cream and so on. All based on the general aspect of physical, physical chemistry, material science with a good understanding of the product context. Very instrumental for Me at the time was I actually run into Mark Correll, who was professor emeritus from Rutgers and mit, as one of the founding fathers of food science. And I didn't know anything about food science. I was a physical chemist or chemical engineer, material scientist. So in working really with Mark, who passed away, I think three, four years ago at the age of 94, my son Marco Rail, gave me really my introduction to modern food science. Who are the people who make the differences? What are the developments? How does it hang together, how does it relate to the technology and so on. And so I really still consider, even though I never studied with Marco Rel, I consider him to be my mentor into food science.
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Adam Yee
So, you know, since you kind of are in this area where I think you can define food science and you have the credibility to do so, or in industry, academia, and with that knowledge from Mark, what, what would you say food science is?
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Dr. Job Ubink
I have a specific interpretation what it could be. I think we need to move on. Because actually, when I went into the, the food industry with ambition of developing my angle into food science, I had two ambitions and I still have them. I maintain them now more than 25 years later. The one thing is I wanted to bring some of the physical sciences to food science. So with an ambition to connect, let's say, food science to the engineering sciences, to physics, molecular physics, polymer physics, polymer science, et cetera, and demonstrate that even in very complex and sometimes messy systems of food, you can still find general underlying mechanisms and concepts that work. And if you do that, you know, if you choose your study systems for study carefully, that you can really get meaningful results both as a fundamental science and an application on products and technology.
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Podcast Host / Narrator
Okay.
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Dr. Job Ubink
My second ambition, and I think that's the space which is really going to be really critical to food science, is food science, I think, is, you know, we prepare food, we produce it for people, individuals, we talk about consumers. That's very much I would say in a commercial perspective, I rather would say individuals who are members of communities. So I'm very interested in a broader food system. How do people purchase the food? How do they prepare it? What are the relationships you develop over food? Think about family life or community life or certain celebrations and events. And I think that should also be an integral part of food science. So considering the food, not only from we put something in a grocery store and a convenience store, but how does that link to actually the people, what they think of food? How important is that for them? The feelings around food, the relationships they built on that, and then realizing that food Cultures are not stagnant, but they're actually evolving all the time. And there's one part teaching that food culture and customs course. Yeah, I had yesterday a class conversation and then, you know, I asked about some trends and I'm monitoring them seven, eight years and I see already changes happening. Yeah, 100%, which is absolutely fabulous. So that's my ambition. So I think food science should be the broader discipline and I would rather say the science of food rather than food science that engages with the engineering science of the physical science, the chemical and biological sciences in the broader perspective of people and food and how to procure it, how to prepare it, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. That, that will be my vision for food science.
- [21:47]
Adam Yee
Very, very cool. And yeah, I mean, I'm always fascinated at how people are buying things. I talk to a lot of marketers and a lot of especially startups, for lack of a better term, and communicate with all of the people who communicate with these startups. And it's, it's always fascinating what changes and what doesn't change. And also I find also what's. What I'm currently looking at is more so the bigger technologies affecting the way we eat. So, you know, and yeah, when I combine that with essentially AI, biotech and policy, in a sense, you, you can't predict your future.
- [22:20]
Dr. Job Ubink
If you look, look back with, you know, with hindsight, it looks very logical, but it is, you know, far from. If you look ahead. One of the things I run into in Minnesota, which I thought, which I think is fascinating, they have a really active of cottage food producers community and a very active farmers market association. So cottage food producers association and the farmers market association so started to work with them and actually we just got a big USDA project approved for the next three years.
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Adam Yee
Very cool.
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Dr. Job Ubink
Also must say that perspective of these smaller producers who sell from their homes or maybe on farmers markets and thereby engage people, I think that's also fascinating and that should also be part of food science because there's a lot of credibility. And I must say, having worked with the largest food companies, I must say I find it fascinating that I'm also working now with individuals, of course, represented over the associations who actually prepare the foods in their home kitchen and then sell it locally. That's just amazing. And it's also amazing how much similarity I see between working with the large industry versus some of these individual producers.
- [23:30]
Adam Yee
Definitely 100%. So you want to go back in academia, it seems. I guess. Why do you decide to move from industry to Academia.
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Dr. Job Ubink
My initial plan was go to food industry for maybe four or five years and then trying to land an academic position.
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Adam Yee
And it worked.
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Dr. Job Ubink
I really enjoyed my industry career. I must say. NASA have given me so much opportunity, allowed me also to do research work. But I think I worked with six or seven different business units which was pretty exceptional. Could be part of some really key R and D projects, traveling around the world, could attend conferences. So really, really, really enjoy that. So that became, you know, not a couple of years, but I think I stayed of two years at Givaudan and then I think 11 years at Nestle and then I had my own consultancy because I had a lot of requests coming in. I did that for six years and only then I thought from yes, actually. And I had a project with DSM nutritional projects which run for five years, which is a great project and I can mention that because they say we want to publish some of the results.
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Adam Yee
So what was it like? Can you say the project or it
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Dr. Job Ubink
had something to do with some encapsulation system. I will leave those out. But there was a material science component to it. I think the science was fascinating. So they said can you publish that? So yes, but I was not intended, I was a consultant to you. So then we really geared it towards a research initiative and that I coordinated with three other universities in Italy, in the UK and Switzerland. And then me with maybe a trainee or two in my own little company. And at some moment I thought yes, you know, what are you actually doing? I said this is really academic work you're again doing. So I started to look at the opportunities to transition to university which if you're in your early before this is not the trivial thing to happen. But then within two weeks one of these, these higher education job boards was a position for professor and head of department Food Science and Nutrition. Basis in food science industry desired understanding of nutrition and interestingly ideally preferred understanding of culinary science. So I said, I looked at the job, that's me. So and for me it was amazing to actually return to California as small kids with my family. We lived already a while in San Diego, which I love, very good memories. But it was one of the time when I was in elementary school I really, really enjoyed being at Cal Poly. It's such a mission driven institution centered on students and student experience and effective hands on learning to learn by doing. I really, really enjoy that. I'm also learning from nutrition, learning a lot about dietetics which really carries.
- [26:20]
Adam Yee
So yeah.
- [26:22]
Dr. Job Ubink
And being there in the hugely diverse food scene in California. So I was happy there. I was really working a lot, but had a lot of cool projects also with students starting to make plant based hamburger extruders that they had over there. Nice to do. It was eight, nine years ago now, so a lot of projects with the senior project students. But then at some moment the U man reached out, connected with me. I had relations there from my time at Nestle and of course scientists like Gary Unettis and Ted labuza who are very much in.
- [26:59]
Adam Yee
Yeah, they're big guys.
- [27:01]
Dr. Job Ubink
And then essentially was invited to transition to the University of Minnesota. So I'm here in my seventh year. It's nominally the same role, but I of course this is a different department. We've been doing a lot on our teaching. I think we have great programs, great instructors, we're doing a lot of modernization. But at the same time I'm also here for my research and representing the research that we do and the exchanging component of this department, of course, land grant university. So I'm doing my main job as a department head but also have a research lab. And as I mentioned, as we discussed, I'm doing teaching.
- [27:35]
Adam Yee
Teaching.
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Dr. Job Ubink
Some teaching.
- [27:36]
Adam Yee
Thank you. You do a lot. Yeah. Quick non. Sounds misspell. Obviously I graduated from there and I'm still pretty involved there as like an advisor or something. I don't, I forget really. But they like to ask me questions for free, for a free dinner. But I mean it's the best weather in the world in my opinion. At least a little bit compared to Minnesota. I think Minnesota, as you mentioned, like kind of bounces back and forth. But San Jose Obispo has like consistently good weather.
- [28:00]
Dr. Job Ubink
Oh yes, true. I must say I still, I have a. You know, California is a warm place in my heart. I love California. I must say I really came to. I always appreciated Twin Cities. I must say also when I was at Nestle, I think the first visit, 2001 and a project we had the Gary on Edges. I think they invited me back some years later to give some seminars as well. So always, you know, the Twin Cities also I thought it was really, you know, potentially really interesting. So. And I can really confirm that I must say the Twin Cities are absolutely great place to live.
- [28:34]
Adam Yee
Actually I've never been there, so you should invite me.
- [28:36]
Dr. Job Ubink
Yeah, no, come over here. Here. And I think we have seen it. We have had. I know when I moved you people say where are you moving to? But then very soon actually we had the pandemic and then the going and suddenly everybody knew where Minneapolis Was. And I say, yeah, we're a St. Paul, which we're also important. And again, seeing all the happenings this year, again, I won't go into details. One thing which really signifies the Twin Cities and I think wider Minnesota is the community feeling a really true sense of communities. I already mentioned these Cottage Food Producers association and the Farmers Market Association. They're there for the communities. So Minnesota and that I really came to value and I really value every day. It's really very strongly centered to community. And then, you know, as a state is diversifying pretty rapidly. But this typically, I must say, the way that, you know, if you see also these associations doing their best to, to cater to these different constituents, I think it's amazing. So I think this is something which is really unique. I think it has a wider background in Minnesota, but I see that really all over the, you know, all the time in the Twin Cities. Of course, the other thing is, food wise, California is about paradise, especially Central coast with all that, you know, the olive groves and the citrus groves and you know, the fresh produce year round. I was living coast. You have the fresh fish and seafood brought in, which is. Which, of course we don't have that much here. But the other hand, the Twin Cities are great from, I must say, the diversity of the food and the small artisanal producers. There's for instance, the outstanding of bakery, where actually they provide also flour, it's top quality bread flour. So there's a lot of good things around here, the breweries, the small food companies and that built upon that huge history as you know, as Minneapolis as the mill city, with that huge tradition in especially the cereal trade and processing. And that's why we have also these big, these big companies still here in the wider Minnesota area.
- [30:52]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Love that.
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Adam Yee
So we like to ask this question on the podcast and we'll switch on the beginning. But what is your food job? Rock.
- [30:59]
Dr. Job Ubink
I must. I can combine my interest in science, I can combine it with what people's interest in people's lives. And I think that's just amazing. I must say, I had it already in industry, I must say, being a professor and then also, you know, connecting with people. I'm working with a very diverse team of people here from the food science, the food engineering, the food safety side, you know, all of that. But then also think about nutrition. We're really strong on community nutrition and we're so collegial here. So, you know, I think that's the reason why now my job at Food Science rocks. I can combine what I'm passionate about in the science side which my deep interest and say, hey, how does that food fit in people's lives? And that's just amazing, you know, an amazing story and it continues to be fascinating. No, there are the ups and the downs. We have this whole ultra process foods conversations these days. On the other hand we have a lot of, you know, smaller scale type of initiatives or we have for instance in our department, you know, student runs with our undergraduate program advisor we have a care corner which is essentially an internal food bank. It's just amazing to be part of all of these type of things. So that really makes my job rock for me.
- [32:12]
Adam Yee
Love it. So since you've been pretty involved in industry and pretty involved in academia, I'd love to, I'm going to keep this question vague. What do you see as kind of the levers between the two? And I think I've been working, I've been working a lot of industry and starting to luckily, fortunately the staff and faculty at NC State they like to get me some opportunities to be more involved than usual. So like understanding how grant writing works for instance. I'd love to understand like this is an overview for everyone in the audience who might consider, you know, either industry or academia or both or whatever. The kind of the core differences and kind of the needs and wants of industry and academia.
- [32:52]
Dr. Job Ubink
From my perspective, if you want to be a long term active in food science, you need to have spent some time in industry. It's a strong recommendation I must say. Also when hiring younger professors, I know I love to have some faculty on board who have actually industry background because it just resonates differently. I really enjoyed my years in industry. Of course we all have our frustrations and difficult things and so on but overall I must say seriously, it's been an amazing journey. As I mentioned was planning to go for four or five years. I worked for the industry for I think over 15 years. In the end it was not because I was wasting my time. What I really appreciate in industry is that it's very mission centered and the mission is pretty clear we want to get that product out. We be consistent, safe, you know, be efficient in what we do. What I really like in industry is it's very collaborative. You know, I see, you know, whether it was at Neste already or Givaudent see teams self assembling, pulling in diverse competencies and actually getting things moving. So I think that was really highlighted then working for a big company in Nestle I had also a global role as the expert in food material science is really coordinating these research and the R and D efforts over all these different business units and the technical centers. The application group was just really, really, really rewarding and they're working with diversity of people. But I feel much more privileged as a professor. Of course there are less. We're always scrambling to get funding for our students in et cetera, et cetera. But I must say the, the ability to articulate a public perspective of it is, you know, as a tenured professor, I think is really unique. And having come late to academia and being in 10, I'm now in my 10th year. So now I've started to feel pretty regular as a professor. I still think having that opportunity that I can decide myself on where to talk about. Not that I felt any restriction basically in my companies also at Nestle talk widely with the press. But you still say, yeah, it's not just purely me, I'm also representing an organization here. Here it is very clearly distinguished because I have scholarly independence. So I can really points of view that really serves the public good. Not that I was talking against that in my previous roles, but I'm representing an organization here. I'm sure I'm at University of Minnesota, but everybody knows that a professor is basically an independent actor and contributing to these conversations as they go on. So I feel really privileged about that and I want to be very respectful about the resources which also go into that. And the other great thing, as I must say, it's just amazing to work with young people. It's the reason why also one of the reasons I really teach and I want to teach also lower division courses like the general education course. Teach grad level courses. There's actually one other grad level course which is on. On technical leadership and food innovation. I'm teaching with an adjunct faculty member here, Christine Novakovski, who's a fellow at Cargill, a distinguished career at General Mills, trying to bring in that industry perspective and trying to mentor the students in that they're ready for their careers and ready for their lives while also learning from the students because it is a different generation. They bring in different perspectives. And I find it amazing that the things that they share with you, you and that keeps me really active and engaged.
- [36:25]
Adam Yee
Yeah, you know what, what has been nice coming back for my advanced degree is, is talking to students. And I, I do think that gives me a little bit more kind of optimism in the world. You know, they have their own anxieties too, but when you realize their anxieties are kind of small Compared to like some of the anxieties of being an adult or, or an industry or whatever, I think it gives me a different perspective on things.
- [36:53]
Dr. Job Ubink
Yes. I must say there's one aspect of my job at Cal Poly which I have much less here. It was the direct student advising. As a department head there, I would typically speak with the students who were doing really excelling or who were in, let's say, trouble. And I could add a perspective there. So careers are really long.
- [37:16]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yes.
- [37:16]
Adam Yee
Yeah.
- [37:16]
Dr. Job Ubink
So you're not, you know, if, if this is not what you want to do or where you think this is not what you're good at, you'll find something else. But then you know, you're spending, having spent some time in food science and nutrition, at least you carry something with it and you know, that's maybe not your thing. And then maybe you go for a business career, but at least you have at least some understanding, for instance of food science. That's always a good thing. And then careers never work out as you plan. I also, when I was younger I thought I'm going to pretty straight. And then I realized a couple of years in my studies said yeah, but now I should be really thinking about how can I pivot to something I really to want to do. So I think, you know, bringing in that perspective also for, for younger people is really, really relevant. And then you know, they have their anxieties, but they also have their ambitions and they have their ideas. And I think it's just wonderful to engage with those for sure.
- [38:02]
Adam Yee
What do you think academia can do better to connect with the industry or what have you noticed might be some gaps between collaboration between the two.
- [38:12]
Dr. Job Ubink
I think it should be coming from both sides and I think from the side of industry. I've been very fortunate. I've seen research action both at G and at Nestle. Nestle of course is really well known for that, but other companies are doing that as well. You need to invest in research and you, I know as industry shouldn't only ask the question is how is going to make my product better tomorrow without knowing anything about your, your food ingredients, your materials, et cetera, et cetera. So I think also industry and, and that's my. Where I see that the industry could step it up. Research pays off if you, you do it in a coordinated manner, in a very critical manner and make sure that that learnings carry over to your next generation of technologies and products. And that is where industry very often falls short. It depends really on a lot on the industry sector, a field Which I really love working for here specifically is dairy dairy foods. Part of my research also funded by the National Dairy Council and by regional by the Midwest Dairy Food Research Center. They have some kind of, of medium long term perspective on their field and that allows you to work really structured. Then you will want to work with industry. And you know, from academia knowing industry, we assembled an industry consortium of producers of in this case whey permeate powders. I really love learning from them. What are their issues, what are their experiences, what do they know about the products, what they do they, what are they lacking in knowledge. And then build our fundamental science here. And that's I think is more to the industry side. I think also taking the effort to really build that fundamental understanding. But be sure that you connect back to what happens in industry. What is industry relevant, what is feasible to happen in industry? Things that are implementable are very often not completely new technologies from the drawing board that will take 10, 20 years if they're going to have an impact in the industry. Also it's not always simple reformulations by adding, you know, getting some, some ingredients out and see. And now we are going to solve a product where I see it both, you know, when I was in industry and now working with for instance now in this, this dairy field it is very, very often to do that the solutions are, you know, you may compromise between multiple factors that are in your ingredient stream that have to do with your processing conditions and exactly how you tune it that all also in those process engineers and the operators are aware of some critical points. And then yes, of course at some moment you can reformulate or use specific ingredients to use it. But I think what we need to work together between industry and academia is really understanding that we have the process, we can't exclude the process from that. Then we have the physical and chemical and biological properties of what we do. Think about fermentation or the chemical reactions or the phase transition, rheology and so so on play a role. And if only if you really integrate those you can really make meaningful headway solutions that deliver and that are also feasible for industry to implement. It's not we do something in the lab, we throw it over the wall. That needs to be really engaged. And I must say I really, really enjoy those, you know, those visits of industry, this conversations with industry. And as I said in my dairy research, we connect back every quarter at least a couple of times with our industry part really to see, you know, share what we have learned about our system. And it can be pretty Fundamental and then they say oh wow, this connects with my process.
- [41:46]
Adam Yee
Got it, got it.
- [41:47]
Dr. Job Ubink
That's the amazing moment. And at the same time in discussing with them, you know, you miss, you know, you get really important insight that really matters there and you say okay, let's redirect the research a little bit that we really can target that we stay close to what is, you know, which can be implemented later on in industry. So I think research and you know as done as academia can be really close to what industry needs to do. We do research to answer real questions and sometimes they're really fundamental things you're investigating in. But if you really be careful and from both sides identify the right questions, even the outcome from fundamental research can have direct industry impact. Because those, you know, those colleagues in industry will say yes, I recognize this. I didn't know the science here. This has something to do about my probably and my process.
- [42:36]
Adam Yee
Okay, yeah, I, I like that actually doing some lectures like going back to class. It has been nice actually learning some fundamental things about you know it actually has been useful communicating with people, communicating with other entrepreneurs on some projects. So yeah, what I see happening from
- [42:56]
Dr. Job Ubink
my side and actually with a background still in other fields is food science. Food science. Food scientists or in the food science field we operate very often with almost without memory. I feel where are we building from? That's actually, that's that I know what I learned from Mark Correll. There's a whole history to the discipline.
- [43:16]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yeah.
- [43:17]
Dr. Job Ubink
We should celebrate those, those key achievements and those who have been doing that both in the academic side and in the industry side and be really aware that we actually can build that story. And as I said with the dairy I feel there is a systematic approach and a long term goal and where they want to be heading to it feels to really jump around quite wildly. This year it's this next year it's that other thing. I always try to adopt a more long term perspective. I think you know what things now is important. Might, might be less important these you know nowadays. But we'll come back at some, some, some moment. Think about the whole plant protein field is going to be important also long run but, but was overhyped some years ago. Then it goes through the valley of tears.
- [44:00]
Adam Yee
Yeah, yeah. Garner hype cycle. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 100%. So I'm curious about your role as a department head which I don't get to interview a lot of department heads. What is that different? How is that different from like a standard professor role? I'd love to hear more about that, do you have such an extra responsibility?
- [44:20]
Dr. Job Ubink
Yes, definitely. Actually my main time I'm spending on my department, I'm actually I'm pretty good to spot there because we have a fantastic staff team in place where a lot of new hires there, young people and some seasoned professionals. So they take care of a lot. So actually I've been implementing some of my management learnings from industry into how you can make it work in academia. So actually what I learned how industry is operating with matrix type of structures with you know, roles with an autonomy and the decision making power. Also our staff members have that and in that way they can interface in a much more effective manner which means that I can take some steps back, which is great. I don't want to manage the department so which allows me to do also research and teaching. So what I love about a department head role is that you are dealing with with so many different aspects of it. With food science we have nutrition, we have dietetics, we have a big pilot plant which is doing really well and you get to know a lot all of these things. I know new standards in the NODE accreditation for nutrition and dietetics. I see the industries coming to our pilot plant where we can invest, we manage to advocate, we advocated for and managed to successfully get funding for our department renewal, our pilot plant renewal, which is really, really inspiring. So I think that's one of the great things as a department head you get involved in very many different things. Then also try to be close to our students. So we regularly communicate with our students, which you can do as department head to do it with some of our students facing staff members. And I think it really creates credibility. And I learned again also from the students and working work together with them. And then also of course as the department have, you have the whole HR side of things. So the people management evaluation, starting to create meaningful trajectories, career advancement for professors, but also for staff members. So I really enjoy the type of things. And then of course nationally you meet as food science and nutrition administrator, represent your department to stakeholders, to the college, to university leadership. And so that's really the distinguishes a professorship from being from a department head.
- [46:43]
Adam Yee
And would you say it's a lot more about, I guess a big chunk of it is more admin work. Right.
- [46:50]
Dr. Job Ubink
Would you say it's of course admin work and this the leadership component and there's a little bit of political component which comes with it. And you really represent also in certain areas, let's say here in the states. So you're Invited. You know, you're part of certain groups or certain boards, you're asked for opinion. And it's absolutely fabulous to see that, you know, that we've been going through a whole generational transition with our faculty and with our staff. The way that actually now seen, you know, with our impact in food science, nutrition, dietetics, from six, seven years ago is very, very different. It's a team effort. But I'm really proud of what we're achieving here. And so, yeah, that's really some of the, I would say, very positive aspects of being department head. I never knew I will be a department head. I always aimed at doing work rather on the science and the technology. And I love the networking in industry. I love the teaching, which already did quite a bit in industry, and then later on first. But then I must say I found out in my first administrative job at Cal Poly, you know, as department actually, I really enjoyed it as well. It's pretty intense.
- [48:07]
Adam Yee
It's a lot,
- [48:09]
Dr. Job Ubink
you know, it's really, you know, you learn a lot from people there. You work a lot with different people and, you know, and you can basically be involved in a lot of different things. So I try to do it very hands off, a very high level most of the time. But still being involved in this great diversity of things that you run in such a department is just really, really interesting.
- [48:30]
Adam Yee
Very cool. And this is my last question before we get to where we can find you. You know, you have all these experience in industry, academia, you teach students, you teach professors, you teach a bunch of people in industry. What do you think is something that you say often to people to kind of help them, whether it's understand the career or understand and kind of advocate food science a little better. I'd love to hear some general kind of advice from you about how to essentially handle career in food science.
- [49:00]
Dr. Job Ubink
Yes, Greg, I will maybe take it a little bit more to also our department, something which I know you really get ingrained in industry. You're there for your consumer, for your customers. Yeah. So you want to serve them well, even if you're an R and D, you always know we're here.
- [49:18]
Adam Yee
There's always the customer.
- [49:20]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yeah.
- [49:20]
Dr. Job Ubink
So. And actually I think I've taken that into academia.
- [49:25]
Adam Yee
Okay.
- [49:25]
Dr. Job Ubink
The management tools, how you organize yourself, how you deliver. But also here we're here for basically our stakeholders, our students, our. Also our alums, our. The industries in the state. So we're here. And I think that's a cultural shift that needs to be happening in universities, especially in land Grant universities, we're here to deliver on our mission for our state, for stakeholders, for our students. But then as a job in food science, I must say what I would really recommend there is food science, I must say, broaden your perspective that you know what role food is playing for people. Also, if you're a product developer or if you're a technologist, in end the with foods, you have such a unique entry to people and their feelings, their emotions, their culture that I think everything that we do on products, it's impacting people's lives in a different manner than if you're in the pharmaceutical field or so, of course. But it's something which connects very emotionally to people. And that's the reason also why these debates are these days so heated with the ultra processed food discussion, for instance, because not just that you bring some technology or product, you actually interfering with people's beliefs and their worldview and what they know, their relationships and how food is a central part of that. So I think in the food industry we can be actually benefiting from that. I think it will give a lot of also commercial opportunities. And actually if I go around and see small producers, I see some, some fabulous things happening, really inspired by, you know, we know how to fit in people's lifestyles and so on. So I think there's a lot of opportunities there. But I think overall that's something which I would recommend to food scientists to really go beyond your actual product or the processing line or your lab, have a look at the broader context and then as food scientists also, and maybe circling back to that course that I'm teaching with Christina Novakovsky, if you want to make the career, be cognizant that at some moment the conversations will have to happen at a different level. If you're in industry, you're there of course, for your technical and scientific expertise. But the industry is not controlled by food scientists. It's controlled by people at the most marketing level or at operational level who know something about finances. So you will need to be able to speak their language. You want to be a. Not that person who develops products to say, oh yeah, yeah, we want to have this. We'll ask our food science teams to do it. You want to be actually one of the decision makers at the table where really the decisions are made and that work.
- [52:14]
Adam Yee
100% agree. I mean, the reason why I was able to work really well with the companies was because I was so interested in and marketing and then at a later extent, finances, because those two are really vital for a Food product, yes
- [52:27]
Dr. Job Ubink
and no or these decisions are made and basically bringing of course the scientific component and the technological component but to the level that's needed and then be that partner at the table for these more strategic conversations where all these other things factor in. When we start a new course we have actual triangle which says processing product development and the marketing. It says no. Which relation for you as a product developer is more important with processing or with marketing. And then food science students typically gravitate. Sure, I'm going to talk to the process engineer. Sure, that's the easy conversation. You need to talk with the marketing people. You need to be. And they don't know food science with exceptions of course but you will need to be at the same table with them to be able to really, really understand their perspective what is driving them and then really being partnered there an equal partner at the table. So I think they're really in food science careers. They're huge opportunity if you master that level because then you can make that corporate career but then also you can be really a successful entrepreneur in the food business for sure.
- [53:36]
Adam Yee
Final question is where can we find you if we want to learn more about you and the things you're working on?
- [53:40]
Dr. Job Ubink
So at this moment I'm launching my USDA project on food safety outreach. I'm working very closely with extension here with, with an extension educator, Autumn Stalls. She's great background in food science from Purdue where she wants to bring simple food safety tools and robust ways to measure water activity and ph by even the smallest producers. These days they can't do it. We had a previous project where we actually, with the Farmers Market association, they're actually plugging it everywhere. It's, you know, they, they decided to go for it. I, I as a scientist I say hold back, hold back. We want the triple chain. But I got a briefing a couple of weeks ago that they sold already 210 devices across the.
- [54:22]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Oh wow.
- [54:23]
Dr. Job Ubink
Which is so you know we have a, we're, we're I think present probably about every county in Minnesota with the type of work we're doing and then also research why really work on the dairy upcycling bringing in the physical perspectives there. And I think that's a fascinating field. There's a lot of fundamental science we're doing but really with working with these industry partners is a true delight. And then I'm really engaged in this conversation with ultra processed foods and there will be also multiple events coming up. There's a lot going on there where I'm talking About. I was part of a panel on this, a working task force across the United states with about 25 scholars and researchers and professionals. It was run from Duke here. It's actually from North Carolina now. The interesting thing is I've tried to bring in the processing perspective and say, hey guys, it's really not processing. And ultra processing is a concept that doesn't exist. It just doesn't exist from a. You know, it's still really difficult to make that headway. I, I agree we need to change something. I think we all will agree on that. But they also really need to understand the perspective what, what actually the processing is. And there's are trying to change that there. It's very, very difficult to make headway there.
- [55:37]
Adam Yee
Yeah, it's going to be a really, really fiery discussion I think in the next couple years. Ultra process people are already building certification businesses out of it. Right?
- [55:46]
Dr. Job Ubink
Yeah. So these are the things that keep me engaged. Both teaching, a scholarship with the department. We have a big renovation coming up. We're still doing fundraising and so we're working with the team and we have great facility relationships. We have a great development team here. I must say also for me, new experience. I feel really proud that we have achieved this with the $60 million coming in that we want to actually add to that. And it's going to be for me, new experience managing that phase with the team here. As far as know it goes well. As I said, we have great support teams around and let's see where that brings us. I think so that will be taking a lot of my time as well in the coming two years.
- [56:31]
Adam Yee
Love it. Well, looking forward to seeing what happens there. And thank you so much for being on the show.
- [56:35]
Dr. Job Ubink
Yes, Adam, thanks very much. It was a pleasure to be on your show. Really love this conversation. Thank you.
- [56:42]
Adam Yee
Of course,
- [56:47]
Podcast Host / Narrator
This is the end of the show and here's something to chew on. I put this title on the show. What does it take to become a department head of a. Of a university? And I'm lucky to know three of them.
- [57:00]
Adam Yee
Kind of my.
- [57:00]
Podcast Host / Narrator
I don't want to say mentor. I think that's a stretch. But I'll say it anyways because he paid me money at Cal Poly. His name is Dr. Gord Chattery. He was a department head in, in Cal Poly when I was there. And I don't know, I think it paid me like 15 an hour to like work on some stuff. And I, I would always try my best to get into office hours with him so I can just like talk and talk and pick his brain. And I think he allowed me to do that. And, and I, I thought he was super cool. The current department head in NC State, I, I have gotten to know him pretty well. I would say he is kind of just a very forward thinking guy who really wants to do what's best for the department. And, and really I think, I think his special quality is to unearth talent from people who want to learn. And he for example started this AI forum for like, like and it was, you know, it's pretty shoddy. It's like 30 minutes every twice a month where we just kind of figure out how to use AI tools. And you know, I took that data from that class or from that kind of small extracurricular meeting and I might be working with him to build something or he's giving me permission so for to build something really cool in the next couple of semesters. And so I've been exposed to them as department heads. Yeah the department head, NC State, KP Sandeep and the department heading Cal Poly Gore Chowdhury and you know, just talking to the department head of University of Minnesota, Joe Ubink, I think it's, I think I see a common thread and it's essentially this extreme curiosity that really has catapulted them into a way where they become department head. And you know, the department head's kind of main goal is to not only teach and not only be kind of the, the leader of the department but also I think there's a lot of admin work as well and some, some professors love that, some people don't. I think you combine kind of this admin work and academic work quite intensely. They can move mountains and they can get things done in the department and they have to be a delegator and I think that's really difficult. But I guess that the thread I've noticed between all these apartment is just their extreme kind of curiosity in what they do. And I think they just love the
- [59:23]
Adam Yee
game so much really.
- [59:25]
Podcast Host / Narrator
They just, they just love playing the game of being just part of this food science ecosystem that we're all in. And I, it's just something I want to highlight whenever I talk to kind of of these leaders in the universities is that I, I think they are an example of people who are just paragons of the food science. And usually what I love to do whenever I do these podcasts and you know, same with entrepreneurs and same with great scientists is really distilled the heart of what it takes to become this. And I would say the most common and I, I think, think the most common thread I've seen through successful entrepreneurship, successful scientists, and at this point successful department heads is just this, just this curiosity movement and having the authority to, to gain resources to learn about things and, and gain access to things. I think it's just really, really cool. I also think they all have a level of, kind of understanding of what the common needs are are sometimes. I do think some professors can get too into the weeds in, in their work for a good reason. They just have to succeed. Right. It's kind of a, it's kind of a rough world out there. But I do think there's some, there's some level of awareness with department heads that, you know, it's not just about food science and it's not just about the research, but it's about working with people and understanding just the worldview of everyone else. When you apply food science because at the end of the day their job is to help the other food science professors and the staff and faculty there to get resources to enable them do their work. And that does require a different skill set. Whether or not you want to be
- [61:10]
Adam Yee
department header in your university or not,
- [61:12]
Podcast Host / Narrator
I do think that it's still something to distill what makes high achievers high achievers. And if I were to say one thing, it is this just never ending curiosity and I feel like you just have to love the game. Thank you for listening to the My Food Job Rocks podcast. If you like this podcast, give us a five star review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you have any questions or suggestions on what we should talk about or who we should interview, let me know@podcastyfoodjobbrugs.com
- [61:41]
Adam Yee
thank you for the Spoon Network for
- [61:42]
Podcast Host / Narrator
housing this podcast and we'll see you next week for an exciting new episode. Interviewing another food professional,
- [61:54]
Adam Yee
By the way, on my situation, are you slamming something? Oh, please stop. That's okay. That's funny though.
- [62:05]
Podcast Host / Narrator
Yeah.
- [62:06]
Adam Yee
I was like, yeah, sometimes I have to just say that just amplifies on the mic.
- [62:13]
Dr. Job Ubink
Also, when I'm teaching, I'm running all over.
- [62:15]
Adam Yee
Ah, that's good. It's dynamic and engagement. Maybe we should do a video on this.
- [62:18]
Podcast Outro Voice
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