Booed, Sued, and Blocked

Summary

Podcast Summary: Next Comes What
Host: Andrea Pitzer
Episode: Booed, Sued, and Blocked
Date: July 23, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this incisive episode, Andrea Pitzer dissects America's democratic crisis under Trump’s renewed presidency (2025–), exploring how a culture of impunity for powerful figures, legal end-runs, and targeted cruelty foster an authoritarian drift. Drawing on parallels with global strongmen, Pitzer and her guests examine both systemic abuses—from profiteering to punitive policies on immigration and dissent—and, crucially, strategies for resistance: legal action, public pressure, and upholding inclusive norms.

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Key Discussion Points

1. The Trump Administration’s Corruption and Erosion of Norms

• Exploitation of Office for Personal Gain

  • Noted is a $1 billion government deal with Kazakhstan (01:04) giving U.S. access to tungsten, immediately benefiting not just the country but Trump and Commerce Secretary Lutnick’s sons.
  • "This torching of both norms and statutes for officials and legal interpretation... has happened in so many spheres, it might be impossible to identify and label them all." – Andrea Pitzer (00:54)

• Pattern, Not Outlier

  • NYT’s Eric Lipton confirms such profiteering is widespread, not rare (01:27).
    • "I mean, it's the opposite of an outlier..." – Eric Lipton (01:26)

• Guttings of Law and Policy

  • USAID’s decimation, leading to avoidable deaths, alongside rollbacks on congressional appropriations and defense contracting regulations (01:27).

2. Authoritarian Tactics in Law and War

• Alien Terrorist Removal Court’s First-Ever Hearing (02:04)

  • The Trump DOJ pushes boundaries even the Bush administration balked at, but faces judicial skepticism on constitutionality (02:04–02:56).

• Manipulation and Concealment in Warfare

  • Pentagon conceals soldier casualties from Iranian counterstrikes; comparison made to the lying about Vietnam casualties (02:56–03:11).

• Political Expediency Drives Risky Wars

  • "He’s going forward because he’s in political desperation." – Robert Pape, U. Chicago (03:24)

3. Legislative and Judicial Failures

• Impeachment and Electoral Safeguards

  • The failure to impeach Trump or block him from the ballot, plus normalization of extreme executive overreach:
    • "I have an article, too, where I have the right to do whatever I want as president...” – Trump quote cited (04:46)

• U.S.-Backed Authoritarianism Abroad

  • U.S. aids corrupt regimes, e.g., the "puppet government" in Venezuela (05:18), and “deadly bombing of a girls’ school in Iran and subsequent denials” (05:37).

• Violations of Immigration Laws

  • ICE’s ongoing breaches of the Flores Agreement and heinous treatment of child detainees (06:48).
    • “I sometimes look at my bed sheets and I wonder if it would be easier to hang myself instead of trying to survive this torture...” – Ismail, detainee (07:04)
    • “…they can do whatever they want with us. They can humiliate us, beat us, laugh at us, and nothing will happen to them.” – Unnamed detainee (07:31)

4. The Rule of Law—Weaponized and Undermined

• Instrumentalization of Law

  • Pitzer highlights how "law and order" rhetoric is often a code for perpetuating inequality (08:05–08:41).
  • “We cannot actually re establish democracy until we summon not only the will to punish the powerful among us... [but] to acknowledge the degree to which... law has often been upheld only for certain groups in society.” – Andrea Pitzer (08:30)

• Historical Parallel: Internment of Japanese Americans

  • Laws used to expand repression, e.g., Executive Order 9066 (10:06).

• Moments When Law Still Works

  • E. Jean Carroll’s legal victory—a rare example of consequences for Trump (11:39).

    • “...the system will not always bend for him at the highest levels. And he is not invincible...” – Andrea Pitzer (11:42)

  • State attorneys general halting media mergers that would favor Trump-aligned propaganda (12:31).

  • Multiple courts refusing to supply voter data to DOJ, protecting electoral integrity (13:06).

5. Government Overreach and Retaliation

• Political Prosecutions

  • Charges and draconian sentences for anti-ICE protesters (17:23).
  • DOJ cases (e.g., against Marimar Martinez and Olympian David Hearn) unravel due to missing or falsified evidence (15:23–15:57).
  • "Juries and judges are basically saying they don't believe the federal government." – Mike McIntyre, NYT (16:44)

• Calls for Accountability

  • Radley Balko and others advocate for the right to sue not only agents but also architects of cruel policies, e.g., Stephen Miller (20:02, 20:33).

6. Mechanisms of Resistance: Courts and Crowds

• Role of Independent Judges and Public Mobilization

  • “Courts and crowds... determine how long the authoritarian maintains a strong grip and how quickly concentration camps are closed. Courts and crowds.” – Andrea Pitzer (21:04)
  • Local activism making tangible change, e.g., Montclair, NJ council divesting $91M from Citizen’s Bank over ICE ties, resulting in actual policy reversals by the bank (22:45–23:04).

• Renewing Norms Through Community Action

  • “Norms are never a question of one and done, but instead are about establishing a culture that doesn't allow anyone to be thrown under the bus.” – Andrea Pitzer (23:13)

• Defiance and Solidarity in Sports

  • Baltimore Ferals and other rugby teams actively include trans women in defiance of federal threats (24:08–24:37).
    • “Why is it important to have trans women be able to compete... Short answer, because we are women.” – Player (24:30)
    • “The Ferals helped me understand the appeal of an environment where you just be... you're welcome here.” – Player (24:44)

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Memorable Quotes & Moments

• "[Trump’s] return to office has been an attempt to steamroll both law and customs and find out how far the US Political system can be warped..." – Andrea Pitzer (00:07)
• "It's the opposite of an outlier..." – Eric Lipton (01:26) on government corruption
• "He’s going forward because he’s in political desperation." – Robert Pape (03:24)
• “I sometimes look at my bed sheets and I wonder if it would be easier to hang myself...” – Ismail, child detainee (07:04)
• "If the Democrats retake the House and the Senate in November, that will set the stage for individuals to sue ICE, Border Patrol and other agencies for constitutional violations and wrongful deaths." – Andrea Pitzer paraphrasing Radley Balko (20:02)
• “Courts and crowds... are almost always one, independent judges making rulings, and two, the actions of people on the ground.” – Andrea Pitzer (21:04)
• “Pressuring the company's work. Pressuring public officials works. Collective energy works.” – Gustavo Rivera (23:04)
• “The system will not always bend for him at the highest levels. And he is not invincible...” – Andrea Pitzer on the E. Jean Carroll victory (11:42)
• “Why is it important to have trans women be able to compete in the Women's plus division? Short answer, because we are women." – Rugby player (24:30)

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Timestamps for Important Segments

• 00:07–01:27: Trump family profiteering, executive overreach, erosion of rule of law
• 02:04–03:11: Alien Terrorist Removal Court, military secrecy, public confusion
• 04:46–05:05: Failures of impeachment, electoral checks, normalized abuses
• 06:06–08:05: Human rights abuses in ICE detention, personal testimony from detainees
• 10:06–10:53: Historical context—Japanese American internment
• 11:39–13:12: Legal wins against Trump associates and policies
• 15:19–16:44: Federal prosecutions misfiring, bodycam evidence, judicial pushback
• 17:23–19:54: Crackdown on dissent, overcharging, legal reform proposals
• 21:04–23:13: Mechanisms of resistance—local government action, upholding social norms
• 24:08–24:44: Rugby teams defy anti-trans directives, defend inclusion

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Conclusion: Lessons and Resistance

Andrea Pitzer concludes by emphasizing two principal counterforces against authoritarianism: vigilant courts and collective activism. While courts are vital to defending law and accountability, ordinary people—by pressuring institutions, divesting from complicit businesses, and defending targeted communities—can shape norms, support those under attack, and lay groundwork for democracy’s repair. The episode frames the necessity of both legal and cultural rewiring, warning that neither can be neglected, and spotlights the real victories, large and small, that prove the power of resistance even in a besieged system.

Transcript

[Andrea Pitzer]

Since Inauguration Day on 2025, Trump's return to office has been an attempt to steamroll both law and customs and find out how far the US Political system can be warped to accommodate his allies desire to enrich themselves and their perverted notions of government. Last September, Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick and President Trump cut a billion dol deal with Kazakhstan, giving a little known American company access to one of the world's largest untapped reserves of the critical mineral tungsten, which is needed for the production of missiles, fighter jets and computer chips. But the deal proved profitable for more than just the United States. Within weeks of those negotiations, both Donald Trump and Lutnick Sons got in on the action too. This torching of both norms and statutes for officials and legal interpretation by the administration has happened in so many spheres, it might be impossible to identify and label them all.

[Guest/Interviewer]

English professors, they say it's the most brilliant thing I've ever seen from Trump's

[Andrea Pitzer]

refusal to offer up his tax returns as a candidate or make a pre election pledge to acknowledge the winner of the election if he lost. Joining us, New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. Is this an outlier? Is this the only instance that we can document where the Trump sons stand to benefit from a government contract?

[Guest/Interviewer]

I mean, it's the opposite of an

[Andrea Pitzer]

outlier to the gutting of USAID causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people so far and the shredding of laws on congressional appropriations, no tradition or policy has been too large or too small for Trump or his minions to try to undo.

[Guest/Interviewer]

It really became most apparent initially with the cryptocurrency.

[Andrea Pitzer]

They're literally trying everything they can.

[Guest/Interviewer]

That's the case with predictions markets, where they are invested in predictions markets and their dad took steps through the CFTC to unleash that industry. It's the case with defense contracting. It's the case with critical minerals. You know, there's really, there's just across the board.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Just this week, Chris Geidner and Steve Vladec both wrote about the first hearing ever convened by the Alien Terrorist Removal Court. The court was established in the 90s, but even during the excesses of the war on terror under George W. Bush, government attorneys were too intimidated to use it, fearing any case brought there would result in its being struck down as unconstitutional. And in fact, this week, the judge concluded that the Department of Justice would have to do more to make its case. Details of the sentencing are classified at this time, though a district judge issued a subsequent order asking the DOJ to make a more thoughtful consideration. And over the weekend, we also learned that the Pentagon has been hiding the numbers of injuries from Iranian counterstrikes in the war, trying to play down the damage inflicted by Tehran. Took the war in Vietnam six years to become as unpopular as Trump's war with Iran has become in six months. The Intercept has been reporting on the same kinds of deception with regard to casualties in Iran for more than three months now.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Joining me now is Robert Pape. He's professor of Political Science at the University of Chicago, author of Bombing to

[Andrea Pitzer]

Win, leaving both the public and likely lawmakers as well in the dark about the cost of this war on every front.

[Guest/Interviewer]

It's very important to understand that we all know, and his advisors are surely telling him, that the military risks here with ground and actually any of the military options are horrible for the United States and American allies. But he's going forward because he's in political desperation.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Once the United States and the world are free of Trump, we'll need to be ready to make changes in both laws and norms to better reduce our political system's vulnerability to a cult of personality like the one we're currently experiencing. And also the wave of corruption that's been set in motion doing deals in

[Guest/Interviewer]

places like Vietnam and a hotel complex in the Middle east that are kind of aligned with his agenda through relationships that the president is to continue to expand there. So we are seeing this in a level unlike anything in American history, the kind of the opportunities to enrich themselves. There's never been anything like this.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Today, I want to look at ideas on how to use both these tools to block and unravel the current harm. Mistakes to watch out for and what we can do right now that's independent of getting control of Congress. The rule of law has been taking it in the teeth for some time now.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Have an article, too, where I have the right to do whatever I want as president, but I don't even talk about that.

[Andrea Pitzer]

There's the failure to impeach Trump and the failure to keep him off the Republican ticket or off the ballot altogether. There are the ongoing atrocities of the Venezuelan boat strikes.

[Guest/Interviewer]

The Times says that Marco Rubio has become the, quote, de facto viceroy of Venezuela, something which has not been seen since the Americans occupied Iraq after the 2003 invasion.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And the puppet government the US has helped to install in Venezuela.

[Guest/Interviewer]

If you're an average voting Venezuelan, you're thinking, wait, we're in the midst of a natural disaster. The US Government is backing up this corrupt, autocratic government. When are we going to see actual real change that represents our views and our interests in government.

[Andrea Pitzer]

There's the deadly bombing of a girls school in Iran and the subsequent denials about it.

[Guest/Interviewer]

I just want to understand why he consistently says it wasn't us. We didn't do this when all the evidence and indeed the preliminary report and we've spoken to a military insider who says this was human error.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Well, that's the President's opinion. Whitney Curry Wimbush of the American Prospect wrote this week about the massive violations of the Flores Agreement by immigration officials.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Today here was Camp East Montana. It is the largest ICE detention facility in the United States, and it sits just outside the border in El Paso, Texas, on the Fort Bliss military base.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The 1997 Flores agreement limits juvenile detention to 20 days, yet there are documented cases in which detention has stretched much, much longer, even to nearly a year.

[Guest/Interviewer]

A new graphic and frankly chilling report by the ACLU and Human Rights Watch details the horrors held behind those walls, told through the experiences of those inside. Stories of people being denied proper medical care, of inedible food, stories of not even being able to see the sun for days.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Reports include denying children emergency medical care, providing inadequate education, screaming at child detainees, tearing up their drawings, shoving them coming into showers where children are naked, and harassing them by repeatedly waking them up at night.

[Guest/Interviewer]

A detainee named Ismail told Human Rights Watch, quote, I sometimes look at my bed sheets and I wonder if it would be easier to hang myself instead of trying to survive this torture. I don't know how to describe what I am feeling. I feel forgotten. People have died here and no one cares.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The government is also accused of hiding actual detention figures in an attempt to subvert the Flores ruling.

[Guest/Interviewer]

One man who had only been there a month at the time of his interview, shared quote the guards beat us. When one person speaks up for themselves, they take it out on all of us. It doesn't matter if you haven't done anything wrong. They beat you just for insisting on getting your rights, food or medicine. When you don't get it, it's clear to me that they're trying to make a point. The point is that they are in control and can do whatever they want with us, whatever they want with us. They can humiliate us, beat us, laugh at us, and nothing will happen to them.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Keeping the rule of law as a bedrock principle has also come under attack by those organizers who understand that the ways that rule of law, or even more so, the idea of law and order have been used in the past as a weapon to control or even harm vulnerable communities.

[Guest/Interviewer]

And to those who say that law and order is the code word for racism there, and here is the reply,

[Andrea Pitzer]

we cannot actually re establish democracy until we summon not only the will to punish the powerful among us.

[Guest/Interviewer]

If we are to have respect for law in America, we must have laws

[Andrea Pitzer]

that deserve respect, but also to acknowledge the degree to which the law law has often been upheld only for certain groups in society.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Just as we cannot have progress without order, we cannot have order without progress. And so, as we commit to order tonight, let us commit to progress.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Yet one concept I realized in writing my book on concentration camps was that there are few societies in which the rule of law isn't problematic.

[Guest/Interviewer]

And this brings me to the clearest choice among the great issues of this campaign.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I do think it's critical to acknowledge history and work to make law that is not primarily a tool to inflict harm on the poorest and most disadvantaged communities in the country.

[Guest/Interviewer]

For the past five years, we have been deluged by government programs for the unemployed, programs for the cities, programs for the poor.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But I've also noticed that end runs around the rule of law by the government consistently make any given crisis more dangerous.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Following the first black president, Donald Trump revived grievances of many white voters. And we will take back this country for you, and we will make America great again.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Because of the combination of lack of accountability and lack of restrictions involved now

[Guest/Interviewer]

in 2020, the Black Lives Matter protests and the removal of Confederate statues represent a natural target for Trump. These people are vandals, but they're agitators. But they're really, they're terrorists.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It's a vanishingly rare leader who won't be further corrupted by the opportunity to wield expanded power. In February 1942, President Roosevelt, bowing to pressures from civilian and military leaders on the west coast, issued Executive Order 9066. The loss of the rule of law rarely benefits the people whom the rule of law persecuted before. This order led to the forced relocation of more than 110,000 Japanese Americans from the west coast to internment camps miles inland and operated by the military. It merely expands the targeted classes to include groups that might previously have had some protections.

[Guest/Interviewer]

More than two thirds of those people were native born American citizens.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And over at Balls and Strikes, Madiba Deni wrote about an ACLU report from last week that looked at more than 1200 incidents of immigration enforcement across eight states since Donald Trump's return to office. When immigration agents are free to break the law without personal consequence, she wrote, there are deadly consequences for everyone else. And yet, even in our lawless environment, the law can be a very useful tool and still matters. Three cheers for E. Jean Carroll, whose attorneys finally forced a payout of the 5.6 million owed to her by Donald Trump as damages for his sexual assault and defamation against her.

[Guest/Interviewer]

That order coming despite the president's demand for a delay.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It's just one small part of his crimes, but the Supreme Court's denial of his appeal and the money transfer show that the system will not always bend for him at the highest levels. And he is not invincible, despite protection from the most powerful and wealthy people in the country. We're joined now by California's Attorney General, Rob Bonta. Cheers, too, for the attorneys general of 12 states coast to coast who successfully won a temporary restraining order this week to halt the merger of Paramount with Warner Brothers while the lawsuit against it proceeds.

[Guest/Interviewer]

This is also going to lead to job loss and lower wages. So from job loss and lower wages to lower quality, choice, competition, higher prices, this is a bad deal for California and for Americans.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Larry Ellison, the primary backer of the Paramount merger deal, has been a key supporter of Donald Trump, and his decision to install Barry Weiss at CBS News after a previous deal to acquire the network has led to tremendous changes in coverage there, most of which appear to openly favor Donald Trump.

[Guest/Interviewer]

From art to news, there will be less content and less diversity of perspectives,

[Andrea Pitzer]

halting the consolidation of billionaires merger deals may well prove to be a key part of limiting propaganda and protecting free speech in the United States.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Government has completely retreated and abdicated from its role to enforce antitrust law. That's why we're stepping in.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Perhaps even more Importantly, last Friday, U.S. district Judge Kerry Dooley became the 16th judge to rule against the efforts by the Department of Justice to obtain states voter registration data.

[Guest/Interviewer]

The Trump Justice Department sued West Virginia after the secretary of state's office refused to provide an unredacted copy of the statewide voter registration database.

[Andrea Pitzer]

To date, no judges have ruled for the government in these cases.

[Guest/Interviewer]

West Virginia Secretary of State and the attorney general, both Republicans, argued West Virginia law prohibits releasing sensitive personal information even to the federal government without clear legal

[Andrea Pitzer]

authority, stymieing what appears to be part of a larger scheme to use illegitimate means to influence or upend the midterm elections this November.

[Guest/Interviewer]

This data is really pretty sensitive stuff. It is. And even if it weren't that sensitive, the idea that the federal government gets to tell us what our state law is is something that we're always going to defend.

[Andrea Pitzer]

In some cases, the Trump administration is inadvertently reinforcing the rule of law by bringing such ridiculously vindictive cases for offenses that didn't happen or aren't crimes.

[Guest/Interviewer]

There's fallout this morning after President Trump threatened several Democratic lawmakers with arrest and even death after they posted a video calling on milit military members to ignore legal orders.

[Andrea Pitzer]

In some cases, this has inadvertently helped maintain the better side of the rule of law by outraging judges who not only protect the accused against unfair prosecution, but also call the government's conduct into question more broadly, in previous episodes I've discussed the DC Sandwich Guy, the Broadview 6, and Marimar Martinez in Chicago, who was charged by the Department of Justice before video revealed that the case entirely misrepresented all the details of the encounter in which she was shot multiple times. For months, DHS has claimed Marimar Martinez boxed in Border Patrol agents with her

[Guest/Interviewer]

car all right, it's time to get aggressive and get the out because they're trying to box us in.

[Andrea Pitzer]

We can now compare this new body camera video with surveillance video of the same moment where Border Patrol agent Charles Exum's car is seen stopped with no one in front of him. Seconds later, he shoots five times. In even more recent developments, the Justice Department's entire case against U.S. olympian David Hearn, involving a felony charge claiming he deliberately caused more than $1,000 of damage to the reflecting pool on the National Mall, is now on the brink of collapse due to missing evidence.

[Guest/Interviewer]

In a striking new 75 page argument, the defense attorneys for David Hearn, 67 year old man who was in the Olymp Olympics three times, really point out what could be characterized as comical errors by the Trump administration, which could lead to the demise of a case that's been a laughingstock, though obviously very serious to Mr. Hearn.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And on Monday, the New York Times published a piece about more than 550 people charged with assault by the Trump administration over immigration operations.

[Guest/Interviewer]

New York Times Investigative reporter Mike McIntyre was part of an investigation that looked

[Andrea Pitzer]

into this more than 400 cases have been decided so far, with almost half of them falling apart through acquittals or cases bounced by judges or withdrawn by prosecutors.

[Guest/Interviewer]

What we're finding is that many of these cases just never should have been brought in the first place, and that juries and judges are basically saying they don't believe the federal government.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The Times reporters call this failure rate abysmal compared to prior administrations, noting that the Justice Department seldom loses criminal cases, with more than 90% of defendants pleading guilty or being convicted at trial in

[Guest/Interviewer]

other instances, we found at least 30 cases in which judges admonished the government, either prosecutors or agents, for destroying or withholding evidence, for making exaggerated claims and other misconduct.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Meanwhile, however, many other cases, of course, were not dismissed. We turn now to a case that's been widely seen as a test case of the Trump administration's crackdown on dissent. Some have resulted in stagnant triggering sentences for minor or inconsequential actions, in some instances over free speech. A federal judge in Texas handed down unusually harsh sentences ranging from 30 to 100 years to a group of anti ICE protesters convicted of terrorism charges in March. And even the cases that are brought and get tossed out serve to intimidate others who may not have the time or resources to defend themselves against the government. Among those sentenced was Daniel Sanchez Estrada, who wasn't even at the protest. He received a 30 year prison term for conspiracy to conceal documents after he moved a box containing anti fascist magazines and pamphlets. Last week, Radley Balco had an opinion piece in the Times looking at how it would be an ambitious undertaking, but one worth the attempt if Congress greenlights lawsuits against officials responsible for creating and maintaining isis.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Culture of lawlessness Quote the tragedies that we have seen were foreseeable and inevitable. The Trump administration has made clear that its goal isn't just to deport dangerous people, but to terrorize immigrant communities.

[Andrea Pitzer]

He cites incidents like the recent killings of Juan Sebastian Guerrero in Maine and Lorenzo Salgado Arojo in Houston as evidence of overreach and systematic corruption.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Federal law enforcement are protected almost by absolute immunity. It is nearly impossible to sue them for these kinds of violations, even when they kill someone.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Balco, who wrote the book Rise of the Warrior Cop, wrote about the disingenuous nature of ICE accounts of encounters that have led to injuries and even deaths,

[Guest/Interviewer]

from the most recent ICE hire all the way up to the president himself, the courts have said are immune from any liability.

[Andrea Pitzer]

He notes the lies spread about immigrants by the highest officials in the administration, the lack of investigations when civilians are shot by immigration enforcement officers, and the interference with state and local investigations of officer conduct, as well as the attempts instead to investigate those who oppose ICE freewheeling violence.

[Guest/Interviewer]

They called the victims of these shootings domestic terrorists. They've opened in criminal investigations of the victims. Renee Goodsky is her partner.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The Supreme Court has essentially left it to Congress to determine the degree to which federal officials can be liable for constitutional violations, he wrote. If the Democrats retake the House and the Senate in November, that will set the stage for individuals to sue ice, Border Patrol and other agencies for constitutional violations and wrongful deaths.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Renee Goode and Alex Prenti were trying to help people out. You know, they were looking out for their neighbors, sticking out for their neighbors.

[Andrea Pitzer]

There has already been discussion about that. But the Democrats could also take it a step further and create a path to sue policymakers like Stephen Miller, one of the president's top advisors, Tom Homan, his border czar, and Mark Wayne Mullen, the Homeland Security secretary.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Hohman said the other day that, you know, if the Democrats don't shut their mouths, there's going to be more bloodshed, which is basically a pretty clear threat and probably in itself a violation of the First Amendment.

[Andrea Pitzer]

We must demand that our elected officials who oppose Trump pursue this kind of accountability. Without it, malicious actors can abuse government positions with impunity, then leave office with no means of redress for the deliberate harms they've committed to individuals, to the office, and to established civil rights protections as a whole. I've said dozens of times since starting this podcast that in the end, two things, courts and crowds, determine how long the authoritarian maintains a strong grip and how quickly concentration camps are closed. Courts and crowds. When it's not a question of government overthrow through war or invasion, those two things are almost always one, independent judges making rulings according to the law, and two, the actions of people on the ground. If that's what courts are doing to preserve us from authoritarianism, what about the other thing that often helps countries stop or reverse mass civilian detention? Maintaining the right to dissent. The first involves rule of law. The second involves norms. We have to work on both. And while we should help support organizations fighting in the courts, there are many things that we can do that don't require new laws or a new Congress or willingness to enforce anything. Last week, the Township council of Montclair, New Jersey, pulled more than $91 million in funding from Citizens Bank. This is State Senator Gustavo Rivera over its support for corporations that are heavily involved in ICE detention.

[Guest/Interviewer]

When you get moments like this, you have to actually bask in them a little bit and realize that it is indeed, there are.

[Andrea Pitzer]

There are some things that are turning as a result. Citizens announced on Friday that it would end its financial ties to CoreCivic and GEO Group, two of the key private partners for ICE detention.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Pressuring the company's work. Pressuring, pressuring public officials works. Collective energy works.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It's easy to forget how much power we have as consumers and political actors. But we can put the blame where it belongs today by refusing to buy into the sham of supporting groups that help build or run camps that detain our neighbors. There are ways to uphold our norms as well, but we have to be vigilant about them. Norms are never a question of one and done, but instead are about establishing a culture that doesn't allow anyone to be thrown under the bus.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Nobody has more fun playing rugby

[Andrea Pitzer]

I was heartened to see the article in the Baltimore Banner this week recounting how local rugby teams are protecting their trans teammates. The excellent story by Kyle Goon featured the Baltimore Ferals and showed how the team, along with others around the country, is defying new rules that don't allow trans players in US Rugby.

[Guest/Interviewer]

In March, the Ferals played their first match after the policy in Frederick. They're also organizing all trans matches, with one coming up in Australia.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The Trump administration had warned sports governing bodies to ban trans women or lose funding and Olympic team placement, or even face decertification of their authority over a given sport by the federal government.

[Guest/Interviewer]

Why is it important to have trans women be able to compete in the Women's plus division? Short answer, because we are women.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But some local rugby teams are standing by the trans community and taking to the field with all their teammates.

[Guest/Interviewer]

My time with the Ferals helped me understand the appeal of an environment where you just be. All you need to do is show up, be who you are, play with the abilities you have and you're welcome here.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Between the successful action against Citizen bank and league athletes protecting people at the individual level, there is so much of this kind of work to be done in schools, in churches, on community fields. We can protect those who are targeted nationally and keep them safe close to home. Thanks for listening to Next comes what? Please share this with one person who's looking for ways to survive this mess. To support this podcast, please become a paid [e-mail] and consider giving NextComes what a five star review where you get your podcasts and that's it.