The Same Damn Thing But Worse

Summary

Next Comes What? Episode Summary: "The Same Damn Thing But Worse"

Podcast Information

• Title: Next Comes What?
• Host/Author: Andrea Pitzer
• Description: Author Andrea Pitzer explores lessons from the rise of global strongmen to counteract figures like Trump and his allies.
• Episode: The Same Damn Thing But Worse
• Release Date: July 17, 2025

---

Introduction: Reflecting on a Decade Since Trump’s Candidacy

Opening the episode, Andrea Pitzer marks the ten-year anniversary of Donald Trump's announcement of his presidential candidacy on June 16. She draws parallels between Trump's rhetoric and that of 20th-century dictators, highlighting the universal nature of such rhetoric and the critical role strong institutions play in preventing authoritarianism.

Notable Quote:

"It was kind of unsettling to me at that time to notice so clearly that this kind of rhetoric is really a universal rhetoric, and the brakes on it seem to be how strong are the institutions in a given place."
(00:50)

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Historical Parallels: Media Struggles with Authoritarian Rhetoric

Pitzer delves into historical attempts by media outlets to manage and contextualize authoritarian leaders. She references a 1932 New York Times article by Joseph Shaplin, which compared Hitler to Machiavelli, and discusses the challenges newspapers have faced in addressing leaders like Trump.

Notable Quotes:

"Apparently it matters little to his followers what he says. Their chief concern seems to be how he says it."
(01:40)

"Hitler was drawing comparisons to Machiavelli, but she noted that others might be more inclined to mutter Barnum und baili under the subhead a mellowing viewpoint."
(01:50)

---

The Erosion of Democratic Safeguards

Andrea Pitzer reflects on the diminishing barriers that once protected the U.S. from descending into authoritarianism. She underscores the historical differences between the U.S. and Nazi Germany but notes that many of the institutional safeguards have weakened over the past decade.

Notable Quote:

"What are you going to have to say to people who are afraid or who represent people who are afraid? We are all afraid."
(03:36)

---

Rise of Paramilitary Support and Increased Violence

Pitzer discusses the growth of paramilitary groups supporting Trump, highlighting events like the Charlottesville rally in 2017 and the tragic murder of Heather Heyer. She contrasts Trump’s early lack of direct paramilitary support with the more organized and violence-ready groups that emerged post-2016.

Notable Quotes:

"Adolf Hitler had paramilitary backing that Donald Trump simply lacked when he arrived on the scene in 2015."
(05:00)

"The assassinations and attempted assassinations in Minnesota in June were a tragic indicator of our political fabric unraveling."
(07:09)

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January 6th and the Breakdown of Institutional Trust

The episode covers the January 6, 2021, Capitol assault as a pivotal moment where extremist groups demonstrated their capacity to destabilize American democracy. Pitzer draws parallels to historical coups and emphasizes the ongoing threat posed by these groups.

Notable Quote:

"But an assault on the Capitol building and an attempt to derail the transfer of power to keep Trump in office."
(06:50)

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Expansion of the Police State: Policies and Budget Increases

Pitzer highlights the administration's efforts to expand law enforcement powers and funding, particularly focusing on immigration enforcement. She warns that the new budget bill, which allocates over $150 billion for ICE, represents a significant step toward establishing a police state.

Notable Quotes:

"The bill passed by Congress this week is perhaps the biggest red flag for the country since Trump's reelection, bigger even than Supreme Court corruption."
(12:17)

"Money is what the bill would provide more than $150 billion in additional funding to hire new ICE agents and add detention space."
(11:53)

---

Normalization of Authoritarian Tactics

Andrea compares the current U.S. administration's actions to those of Nazi Germany in the 1930s, particularly in terms of surveillance, detention, and the expansion of state violence. She cites Heinrich Himmler's strategies to maintain control and how similar tactics are being adopted today.

Notable Quote:

"This is basically Germany in the 1930s, in the mid-1930s, to be clear, in terms of what the ruling party wants and is actively working on."
(15:08)

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Global Comparisons: Russia's Authoritarian Measures

Pitzer draws a parallel with Russia’s establishment of the Rosgvardia under Vladimir Putin, emphasizing the dangers of a large, state-authorized force committed to suppressing dissent. She warns that similar structures in the U.S. could lead to widespread repression.

Notable Quote:

"A massive force authorized to commit state violence, serving the President directly is, is a recipe for repression."
(16:00)

---

Public Opposition and Systemic Challenges

Despite widespread public opposition to the administration's immigration policies, Pitzer explains the challenges in reversing these measures due to their deep integration into the system. She calls for increased public activism and engagement to counteract these authoritarian tendencies.

Notable Quotes:

"A majority of Americans are already against the President's tactics on immigration, as well as his defiance of US Courts."
(18:18)

"We need to press back and push Congress to take up its constitutional duties."
(19:03)

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Strategies for Resistance and Community Engagement

Andrea outlines practical steps for resisting the administration's authoritarian policies. She encourages listeners to become court observers, connect with support groups, and hold law enforcement accountable. Emphasizing the importance of community action, she advocates for maintaining transparency and legality in opposition efforts.

Notable Quotes:

"Learn how to record ICE encounters. Learn about what is legal for private and for public areas."
(21:29)

"We can press back and push Congress to take up its constitutional duties."
(19:03)

---

Conclusion: The Power of Collective Action

Pitzer concludes with a call to action, urging listeners to show up, make their voices heard, and build a community of resistance. She emphasizes that widespread public engagement is crucial to preventing the further erosion of democratic institutions and ensuring a hopeful future.

Notable Quotes:

"There are already more of us than there are of them. We can recruit more people and we can stop them. But first we have to show up."
(22:45)

"I'm telling you that this is the mechanism by which Trump and his inheritors could keep a kind of indefinite control over the country. So we need to work on it."
(17:48)

---

Key Takeaways

• Historical Lessons: Understanding the similarities and differences between Trump’s rhetoric and that of historical dictators helps in recognizing warning signs of authoritarianism.
• Institutional Weaknesses: The decline of strong institutions in the U.S. has opened pathways for authoritarian figures to gain more control.
• Paramilitary Support: The rise of organized extremist groups poses a significant threat to democracy, mirroring historical paramilitary movements.
• Policy Threats: The expansion of ICE and the militarization of law enforcement represent tangible steps toward a police state.
• Active Resistance: Collective community action, legal resistance, and public accountability are essential to counteract authoritarian policies.

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Final Thoughts

Andrea Pitzer's episode "The Same Damn Thing But Worse" serves as a stark warning about the current trajectory of U.S. democracy. By drawing historical parallels and highlighting present dangers, she emphasizes the urgent need for robust public engagement and institutional resilience to thwart the rise of authoritarianism.

Transcript

[Andrea Pitzer]

You're listening to. Next comes what from Degenerate Art. This is Andrea Pitzer. Each week we'll figure out how we got where we are and how to fight back. June 16 marked a decade since Donald Trump first rode down that escalator to announce his candidacy for presidency of the United States. And back then, I was smack in the middle of writing One Long Night, a global history of concentration camps, and was immediately struck, as were many other people, by the similarity between his rhetoric and that of 20th century strongmen and dictators. It was kind of unsettling to me at that time to notice so clearly that this kind of rhetoric is really a universal rhetoric, and the brakes on it seem to be how strong are the institutions in a given place. Just as fascinating were the common ways that media outlets were trying to get a handle on him that also repeated efforts by newspapers. 100 years ago, I began to post links to historical newspaper articles. Back then, there were many of them, including one by Joseph Shaplin, who wrote in pages of the New York Times three years before Hitler came to power. Apparently it matters little to his followers what he says. Their chief concern seems to be how he says it. What he says may not appear true to those who know better, but to those who like it, it is not without its logic. Journalist Miriam Beard noted that Hitler was drawing comparisons to Machiavelli, but she noted that others might be more inclined to mutter Barnum und baili under the subhead a mellowing viewpoint. In The Times in 1932, this passage appeared. It is beyond doubt that as the party is moving toward power, the sharp edges of many of its views are becoming blunt. Even though Hitler refused to submit to cross examination the other day on the ground that the lawyer of his opponent was a Jew, his speeches no longer bristle with pointed references to the anti Semitic cause. So all that's just to say that newspapers have been struggling for a long time over what to do with people like Trump.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

It's like I can't tell if this is politics or if this is just prior from a celebrity.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Before the 2016 election itself, when people who were alarmed by the similarities between Germany and the US asked me if we were already effectively in Nazi territory, I would clarify some of the differences that still existed beyond the really central and critical fact that the US did not currently have a network of death camps killing millions of people. And in 2016, on Twitter, I wrote that the similarities were lining up more, but there were still key differences. Assassinations, I had said, became really common in that era and helped to destabilize the political situation in Germany. In addition, US militias, while clearly sympathetic to extreme right politicians in America, they had not yet coalesced into a kind of praetorian guard for Trump or made their way into the streets en masse to commit violence in his name.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Anger surrounding Donald Trump's presidential campaign reaches a boiling point. In Chicago last night, the Republican frontrunner canceled a campaign rally over security concerns when thousands of protesters gathered outside an arena at the University of Illinois and then flooded the venue where he was scheduled to speak.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But now, a decade after his arrival on the scene, it's unfortunately true that many of those key distinguishing elements that kept the US from being in a similar situation to Nazi Germany, as well as many other countries overtaken by authoritarianism in significant ways, are now gone. What are you going to have to say to people who are afraid or who represent people who are afraid? We are all afraid. Today I want to talk about what is currently keeping us from full blown dictatorship and the ways we're tilting toward it, and to give you some suggestions about what these things mean in terms of priorities on how to take action. While the US does have a long history of paramilitaries and vigilantes, and Trump clearly received the support of most of the extreme right wing in America early.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

On, I think from the point of view of the radical right, Donald Trump has been playing a careful little game of footsie with them since the very beginning of the campaign.

[Andrea Pitzer]

That's different than having individuals responding to his agenda and ready to do his direct or indirect bidding. Which one of these tanks do you.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Think we should send to Los Angeles?

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I think we should send all of them.

[Andrea Pitzer]

As I said before coming to power, Adolf Hitler had paramilitary backing that Donald Trump simply lacked when he arrived on the scene in 2015.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

I know nothing about David Duke. I know nothing about white supremacists.

[Andrea Pitzer]

In the months ahead of the 2016 election, when people asked how deep the Nazi parallels went, I suggested things weren't looking great. But I noted that during seven weeks of pre election violence in 1932 Germany, 72 people died and nearly 500 were critically injured. We saw those deeper connections with paramilitary types begin to form in concrete ways after white nationalists came out in Charlottesville in 2017. That's why we voted for Donald Trump, because he said he's going to take our country back. And Heather Heyer was murdered.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

You had many people in that group other than neo Nazis and white nationalists, okay? And the press has treated them absolutely unfairly.

[Andrea Pitzer]

By October 2020 bonds were strengthened when Trump, invited to condemn white supremacists. And militia groups during a debate, communicated directly to the proud boys, telling them.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

To stand back and stand by.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Certainly there were responses like Kyle Rittenhouse's man on a mission, crossing state lines and bringing a weapon to a Black Lives Matter protest in what looked very much like a goal of shooting protesters. But it took until January 6, 2021, for us to see how the shift among whole groups of extremists might result in not just intermittent killing on the streets or violence at a campaign event.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

You'll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength and you have to be strong. Invade the Capitol building. Do the right thing. Take the Capitol building.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Take it. But an assault on the Capitol building and an attempt to derail the transfer of power to keep Trump in office. Since his return, we are seeing distinctions between ourselves and authoritarian nations collapse.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Further, he may be prosecuted also for having given false reports on the attack in Iran.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The assassinations and attempted assassinations in Minnesota in June were a tragic indicator of our political fabric unraveling.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Thousands turned out at the Minnesota Capitol on Friday, where the couple was lying in state. Next to them, their beloved dog, Gilbert, the golden retriever, was severely wounded in the attack and had to be euthanized.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I'm sad and I'm angry and I wanted to come and stand quietly for a moment and appreciate them. Yet the US Is a vast country with a population in hundreds of millions. And with the attempted coup that was foiled in 2021, the government began prosecuting those active in the effort, which overall discouraged further violence of that kind. During the Biden administration. It wasn't that Trump lacked a mass of supporters willing to carry out his bidding in a police state. The issue was that they didn't yet have the police state. They didn't have the means and the organization to act. The institution themselves had not become fully.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Complicit in an effort to root out so called, quote, unquote, rogue judges. Trump is turning to some of his closest allies after filling many of the top positions in his Department of Justice with his former attorneys.

[Andrea Pitzer]

With his election last November, much of what Trump's allies have been doing on the ground is an attempt to create this kind of police state.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Bouvet stated that DOJ would need to consider telling the courts you and ignoring.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Any such court order.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Did you say anything of that kind.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

In the meeting, Senator? I have no recollection of saying anything of that kind.

[Andrea Pitzer]

One focused on removing foreigners that they target as undesirables. But they also want to use that police state to crush internal dissent.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

We're going to be celebrating big on Saturday. We're going to have a lot of. And if there's any protester wants to come out, they will be met with very big force.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I've mentioned this before, and it shouldn't be taken as something to frighten you as much as I hope it will clarify what's going on and let you know how to take action. Even during his first administration, Trump actively lobbied to shoot protesters, punish political opponents with jail or violence, use power against reporters who criticized him, and worse.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

An 11th hour bombshell report quoting Trump touting the loyalty of Hitler's generals and reporting that Trump complained about picking up the tab for a fallen U.S. soldier's funeral, calling her an effing Mexican.

[Andrea Pitzer]

At that point, people around him were discouraging him, but now they're abetting him. Just Monday, the administration announced stripping Americans of citizenship through denaturalization as one of its top five priorities for the Department of Justice going forward. When we see this kind of irregular detention growing, often it's accompanied in governments that go quite badly that do bad things to their citizenry and to outsiders. They. It's accompanied by this wish to strip citizenship from people that you think don't deserve it. The same day, White House spokeswoman Carolyn Levitt announced the administration would be open to an investigation aimed at revoking the citizenship of Zoran Mamdaemi, last week's winner of the Democratic primary and the race for New York City's next mayor.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And a lot of people are saying he's here illegally. He's, you know, we're gonna look at everything.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But nowhere are the expanded efforts toward a police state more visible than in the massive surge in the budget bill related to immigration, the border and detention.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

One of the untold stories about this big, ugly bill is the fact that Republicans are cramming it with tens of billions of dollars more for the Department of Homeland Security and for ice.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Along with benefiting the ultra wealthy and cutting basic health services for millions of the poorest and most disadvantaged Americans. The budget bill has been crafted to make internal violence possible, to create a police state that can purge people based on race and ethnicity rather than any true concern about criminal activity. But to do that, you need a lot of money.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

In fact, the amount of money that Trump and Stephen Miller asked for for ICE was so much that Rand Paul, the chairman of the Homeland Security Committee, said it was too much that they couldn't justify it, but what did they do? They did an end run around Rand Paul. They got Lindsey Graham, who's the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, to essentially keep all of those additional monies and simply to disappear more people, not for public safety reasons.

[Andrea Pitzer]

And money is what the bill would provide more than $150 billion in additional funding to hire new ICE agents and add detention space. ICE has already signed new agreements with jails around the country. The bill passed by Congress this week is perhaps the biggest red flag for the country since Trump's reelection, bigger even than Supreme Court corruption.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

I can't believe that we are asking the question, is the 14th amendment to the Constitution constitutional? That is what it is crazy. And I am sorry, but people need.

[Andrea Pitzer]

To call this is crazy. It would give the administration the means by which to build a police state.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

Vance says Medicaid cuts are immaterial. ICE funding is the real priority in Senate bill.

[Andrea Pitzer]

All done quasi legally, but under the auspices of Congress, which makes it much harder to fight in any comprehensive way. In 1937, four years into Nazi rule in Germany, chief of German police Heinrich Himmler lamented the challenges of surveilling so many enemies of the state. What does it mean putting a man under surveillance for that? I need at least three officials per day. There are 24 hours in a day. These three officials need two cars because if the fellow is at all clever, he'll leap from one streetcar to another. So it can't be done without five officials. This line of thinking was his core argument for maintaining and expanding the German concentration camp system. Himmler wanted to keep people seen as threats to the public safety in concentration camps indefinitely. In the same talk, he gave a careful explanation about how the camps are not cruel or sadistic despite what outsiders were saying, but were instead havens of restraint, cleanliness and discipline. In Trump's second administration, though he does not yet have actual dictatorial power, Trump is skipping through the first few years of Nazi rule in terms of what his administration is pushing its agencies to do. They're currently expanding the use of abusive tactics that have been allowed to fester in the US for decades, but which now face little or no restraint on when and how they can be applied. The administration is also looking to expand a vast network of law enforcement loyal to Trump, empowered to kidnap in broad daylight without warrants or identification, and to have the ability to take those they detain and ship them overseas to untraceable destinations for unknown treatment, while building detention camps at home on a massive basis for those targeted by the government. How many more facilities like this do you feel that the country needs in order to enact your agenda of mass deportations?

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Well, I think we'd like to see them in many states, really many states. This one I know Ron's doing a second one. At least a second one and probably a couple of more.

[Andrea Pitzer]

This is basically Germany in the 1930s, in the mid-1930s, to be clear, in terms of what the ruling party wants and is actively working on.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

And you know, at some point they might morph into a system where you're going to keep it for a long time.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But as I've said before, we still have so much power to act in public and we still have the lower courts on the side of democracy. And it's not yet clear what role the army would be willing to take moving in any large way against American civilians. These things matter hugely and they put us on a different path for the moment than Berlin in 1937. I would argue that a useful place and time to consider at our current inflection point is Russia in 2016.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing.

[Andrea Pitzer]

In 2016, after returning to a presidency that he had exited, at least officially, Vladimir Putin established the Russian National Guard, the Rosgardia, to keep internal peace for, quote, the good of society, the state and law and order. The new force will be led by.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Vladimir Putin's former bodyguard, Viktor Zolotov, who will report directly to the President.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It currently has well over 300,000 members and is several times the size of many countries armies. I won't get too deep into the weeds here about what Rosgvardia has taken action on and how they've behaved. My main point is that a massive force authorized to commit state violence, serving the President directly is, is a recipe for repression. And I would argue that the existence of Russgwardia, combined with targeted violence against any powerful leaders arising in opposition to Vladimir Putin, is how he has managed to keep internal dissent from ever being a real threat.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

The Kremlin spokesman denied the creation of the National Guard is linked to the upcoming elections in September, although Dmitry Peskov said the new National Guard would take.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Part in suppressing unauthorized protests. Currently in the U.S. the conflation of the roles of ICE, National Guard and local police are already wreaking havoc with the proposed number of border agents and detention facilities and law enforcement in the immigration arena, already normalizing violence against civilians and support for authoritarian measures from the President. Any increase in the budget, let alone a massive one, is by far the biggest threat to democracy in this moment.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

$45 billion more. Immigrant detention, 13 times what the budget is currently.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I'm telling you this not to terrify you into crawling under your bed. I'm telling you that this is the mechanism by which Trump and his inheritors could keep a kind of indefinite control over the country. So we need to work on it.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

They think it's awful. They think it's horrible. And to quote our colleague Charles Barclay, terrible, terrible, terrible. What are we talking about here? Well, let's take a look at the net favorable rating on the big beautiful bill.

[Andrea Pitzer]

A majority of Americans are already against the President's tactics on immigration, as well as his defiance of US Courts. More will oppose them as the policies they're enacting now begin to unfold, not only with regard to immigration, but also in the arenas of trade and tariffs and health care. Almost no one wants to see their beloved ice cream vendor deported. They do not want us to go to war with Iran. Even fewer want their grandmother's Medicaid care interrupted.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

We could see a quarter of all nursing homes in this country close because of the cuts in this bill. And it threatens over 300 hospitals around the country.

[Andrea Pitzer]

One of the problems we're facing is that the brutality the current administration is inflicting right now is baked into the system. Across several recent administrations, the immigration detention.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

System has become a testing ground for authoritarianism. And so you're seeing that in the case of the student detentions, where you have people being targeted essentially for thought crimes.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Trump has a big base on which to stand as he seeks to expand his cruelty.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

But the thing that we have to understand is that for 30 years, immigrantsmany immigrants have been denied due process because of their interactions with the criminal legal system or because they're newly arriving. And so this is really building on many, many years of expanding mandatory detention.

[Andrea Pitzer]

We can press back and push Congress to take up its constitutional duties. The number one thing that we hear from members of Congress explaining why they are not taking the position we want is nobody's calling my office about it. I really do believe these efforts can make a huge difference in ways we might not be able to predict even before the arrival of any midterm elections in 2026. But the degree to which things are baked into our system make it such that we are going to have to override our institutional momentum by showing up and making our voices heard against abuses by ice, against immigration detention, and against the ability of law Enforcement to operate in the US As a secret police force working anonymously and often without warrants. To be honest, very few people in the US at this point face no risk at all because retaliation is real. But it's important to see what's going on and assess your own risk clearly. In general, US citizens, cishet folks, white people, and especially white women have the most cover because of rampant prejudice that the public will be encouraged to indulge by bad actors, white women over 35 or 40. So basically me, we are the hardest for law enforcement to abuse with impunity. That can give us some guide on what kinds of tasks we might be able to take on. And honestly, the administration is still several months from having everything in place, but they're working quickly. Look at the speed with which what they're calling Alligator Alcatraz is being promoted as being ready to go.

[Unknown Speaker 3]

I wouldn't want to run through the Everett Lakes for long.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Speaking of which, the sale of Alligator Alcatraz merchandise celebrating violence against detainees sparked immediate thoughts from a lot of people about lynching, postcards from US History and the way that this kind of extrajudicial violence was celebrated for a very long time. Activists would draw on photography as evidence.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

So they could somehow shake people out of their complacency and push them to join the fight against lynch.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Right now, the administration is looking to create a community of atrocity to recruit people into a brotherhood of violence. They are celebrating their brutality. What can we do? Learn how to record ICE encounters. Learn about what is legal for private and for public areas. Hold agents and officials to it as often as you can, slowing them down when you can't stop them. And let me be clear, you will absolutely need to know how to keep yourself safe before you are involved in any of these tactics. But anyone can find out where detention is happening in your community and lobby your local officials to shut down access.

[Unknown Speaker 2]

I want to turn now to a growing movement of resistance against President Trump's brutal immigration crackdown.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Become a court observer like Brad Lander. Find out who's working to address the needs of those targeted. Connect to church groups helping those communities from those El Salvadorans and Haitians, Cubans and Iranians currently being targeted for removal despite fears of persecution in their countries of origins. We need a community that stands up against these behaviors publicly and shames supporters of draconian immigration policy to a degree that creates its own momentum against all this cowardice. Do I like this bill? No. The public already doesn't like what ICE is doing. But we need to make sure that what they're doing stays as public as possible. To do that, we need more than fear. We also need anger, and we need joy that imagines hope for a better thing that we're moving toward. There are already more of us than there are of them. We can recruit more people and we can stop them. But first we have to show up. And that's it.

[Unknown Speaker 1]

Thanks for listening to Next Comes what? Please share this with anyone who's looking for ways to help each other survive this mess. We're to support this podcast. Please [e-mail] and consider giving Next Comes what? A five star review where you get your podcasts.