Where the Real Power Lies

Summary

Podcast Summary: Next Comes What – "Where the Real Power Lies"

Release Date: May 8, 2025 Host: Andrea Pitzer

In the episode titled "Where the Real Power Lies," Andrea Pitzer delves deep into the intricate web of authoritarianism, exploring how charismatic leaders and technological advancements interplay to reshape societal structures. Pitzer examines contemporary figures and movements, drawing parallels between global strongmen and the political strategies employed by figures like Donald Trump. This episode serves as a comprehensive analysis of power dynamics in the modern world, emphasizing the critical role of human agency in countering authoritarian tendencies.

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1. Introduction to Authoritarianism and Modern Figures

Andrea Pitzer opens the discussion by introducing Brian Johnson, a tech entrepreneur renowned for selling Venmo for $800 million. Johnson's obsessive pursuit of immortality through regimented routines, medical interventions, and his ambition to establish a new religion centered around the body serves as a focal point for the episode.

• Andrea Pitzer [00:48]: "Even as I was getting ready for this episode, I saw an article in Technology Review about Brian Johnson."

Brian Johnson's Vision: Johnson articulates his desire to create a decentralized religion that venerates the human body. His approach intertwines technology with personal health, promoting a lifestyle where AI dictates dietary and exercise regimes to optimize longevity.

• Brian Johnson [01:37]: "Don't die is a religion. It's politics, it's economics, it's social, it's morals. All things."

Pitzer contrasts Johnson's ideology with traditional religious frameworks, questioning the implications of elevating the body—and by extension, AI—to a position of ultimate authority.

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2. The Manipulation of Power: Bukele and Trump’s Playbooks

The episode transitions to a critical examination of Nayib Bukele, the President of El Salvador, and his authoritarian methods in combating crime. Pitzer references her previous work on concentration camps, drawing parallels to Bukele's mass detentions without due process.

• Andrea Pitzer [04:13]: "I discussed how Bukele… has… positioned himself as a dictatorial savior of the country."

Bukele's strategy involves negotiating with gang leaders like MS-13 to reduce homicide rates, a move that has garnered both domestic praise and international condemnation. Pitzer highlights investigative reports revealing Bukele's collusion with these gangs, undermining his anti-crime narrative.

• Unknown Speaker [05:48]: "Does President Bukele want … to prevent details of the secret negotiations from ever becoming public, especially in a US Courtroom?"

Pitzer draws a parallel to Donald Trump’s approach in the United States, where authoritarian tactics are employed to undermine governmental structures and promote personal agendas. She critiques Trump's efforts to dismantle federal programs, emphasizing the superficial promises of empowerment without addressing systemic issues.

• Andrea Pitzer [08:32]: "So today I'll talk about how, even when things seem to happen magically, there's actually a ton of work going on behind the curtain."

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3. The Illusion of Technological Omnipotence

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to dissecting the misconception that technology—and by extension, AI—can autonomously drive societal progress. Pitzer argues that technological advancements are merely tools dependent on human intervention and creativity.

• Andrea Pitzer [03:03]: "So today I'll talk about who invents the world."

She underscores that the "magic" of technology is human-made, relying on infrastructures like undersea cables, satellites, and human labor for maintenance and innovation. This perspective challenges the notion that technological entities possess inherent power or consciousness.

• Andrea Pitzer [13:31]: "It happened because of humans and could contain no more than humans put into it."

Brian Johnson on AI: Johnson expresses his belief in AI's potential to enhance human capabilities, suggesting a future where AI governs personal health decisions to optimize well-being.

• Brian Johnson [19:03]: "Don't kill the planet and align AI with don't die. There is no other answer in existence on what we do as a species."

Pitzer counters this by emphasizing the indispensable role of human judgment and creativity, arguing that AI lacks the consciousness necessary for genuine innovation and ethical decision-making.

• Andrea Pitzer [16:55]: "The tool itself is not sufficient. There are no hero rulers. There are no hero technologies to whom we must submit."

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4. The Human Cost of Technological Advancement

Pitzer highlights the often-overlooked human toll behind technological progress, particularly in developing countries and marginalized communities. She brings attention to the labor-intensive processes that sustain technological infrastructures, such as data workers training AI systems and the societal impacts of automation.

• Brian Johnson [14:46]: "Far from the world's glitzy tech hubs, these data workers train AI systems by sifting through massive amounts of harmful data."

This segment serves as a critique of the dehumanization inherent in some technological pursuits, stressing that without recognizing and addressing the human elements, technological tools remain impersonal and potentially oppressive.

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5. The Erosion of Independent Thought and Community

A recurring theme throughout the episode is the erosion of individual autonomy and community bonds in the face of authoritarian leadership and technological mediation. Pitzer warns against the dangers of allowing external forces—be it leaders like Bukele and Trump or AI systems—to dictate personal and societal norms.

• Andrea Pitzer [19:58]: "Humans subordinating their will to AI is as foolish as submitting to a dictator."

She advocates for personal agency and community-driven initiatives as antidotes to the centralization of power. By fostering independent thought and creativity, individuals can resist the allure of authoritarian promises and technological determinism.

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6. Concluding Insights: The Imperative of Human Agency

In her concluding remarks, Pitzer reinforces the central thesis that real power resides within human agency and collective action. She urges listeners to embrace their creativity, engage actively in their communities, and resist the passive acceptance of authoritarian or technological dictates.

• Andrea Pitzer [24:30]: "Humans are the force that create changes in humanity."

She calls for a resurgence of individual and collective empowerment, emphasizing that technology should serve as an aid rather than a replacement for human ingenuity and moral judgment.

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Notable Quotes

• Brian Johnson [19:03]: "Don't kill the planet and align AI with don't die. There is no other answer in existence on what we do as a species."

• Andrea Pitzer [19:58]: "Humans subordinating their will to AI is as foolish as submitting to a dictator."

• Andrea Pitzer [22:50]: "Without the federal workforce, there is no government. Without actual artists, there can be no new ideas in art."

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Key Takeaways

• Human-Centric Technology: Technology, including AI, should be viewed as tools that augment human capabilities, not as autonomous entities with inherent power.

• Authoritarian Tactics in Modern Leadership: Leaders like Bukele and Trump employ strategies that consolidate power by undermining institutions and manipulating societal narratives.

• The Importance of Independent Thought: Maintaining personal and collective agency is crucial in resisting authoritarianism and ensuring that technological advancements benefit society ethically and equitably.

• Community and Creativity as Pillars of Resistance: Active engagement in community initiatives and fostering creativity are essential in countering the dehumanizing tendencies of both authoritarian regimes and unbridled technological progress.

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Final Thoughts

"Where the Real Power Lies" serves as a compelling exploration of the intersections between authoritarianism, technology, and human agency. Andrea Pitzer effectively dismantles the myths of technological omnipotence and authoritarian invincibility, advocating for a society where power is decentralized and rooted in the collective will and creativity of its people. This episode is a crucial listen for anyone interested in understanding the modern dynamics of power and the enduring importance of human resilience and ingenuity.

Transcript

[Andrea Pitzer]

You're listening to Next comes what from Degenerate Art. This is Andrea Pitzer. Each week we'll look at one aspect of authoritarianism to figure out how we got where we are and how to fight back. I have talked before about the derivative life and how people in the US and a lot of places around the world treatment what's going on around them. As a reality show, we have Dr. Phil McGraw.

[Donald Trump]

Where's Dr. Phil? You are so big.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Rather than something in which they're really a participant or to which they bring their own irreplaceable value. Okay, I don't know why the Pentagon hasn't hasn't gotten back to you on this yet, but we hope they sure do soon.

[Brian Johnson]

So do I.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Even as I was getting ready for this episode, I saw an article in Technology Review about Brian Johnson. The tech entrepreneur who sold Venmo for $800 million has spent a fortune on a quest to stay young forever. You might recall that Johnson is the investor who uses a highly regimented workout routine and diet, as well as his son's blood and doctor interventions in an attempt to live forever.

[Brian Johnson]

This is cold air, which is like an anesthesia when we do things on the face that are very painful. This is electromagnetic therapy to basically do 20,000 sit ups in 30 minutes. That's red light therapy. And then in the closet over there, we have all the supplies to do blood draw, blood, spinach, a whole bunch of other therapies.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The story I saw today, he was talking about how he wants to found a new religion that worships the body.

[Brian Johnson]

Don't die is a religion. It's politics, it's economics, it's social, it's morals. All things.

[Andrea Pitzer]

He talked about wanting to decentralize this religion that he would build.

[Brian Johnson]

You're in your own hell. You don't realize it yet.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Nonetheless, compared his process to those of.

[Brian Johnson]

Jesus and Muhammad, it's very practical and reasonable to say when a society is achieving this level of technological advance, what ideology has given birth? Like what is the major religion that happens right now?

[Andrea Pitzer]

So for once this week I'm going to focus less. Not entirely avoid, but focus less on Trump.

[Donald Trump]

These are very dishonest people. They've lost their way, they've lost their confidence.

[Andrea Pitzer]

They have no confidence then on this phenomenon that predates him and happens across.

[Brian Johnson]

The board, like I am the son of God.

[Andrea Pitzer]

This mystification of who controls the world. Johnson is a good example.

[Brian Johnson]

I've never felt better in my entire life. I've never felt more stable. I've Never been less affected by stress or by insult. I'm just good with everything. And that wasn't the case before.

[Andrea Pitzer]

There's so much focus on these outsized figures who have a lot of money. It's easy to forget how the world actually works.

[Brian Johnson]

Not capitalism, not democracy, not Islam, not Christianity, not Wokism, not anything. There's nothing that addresses the moment. We have no idea what to do.

[Andrea Pitzer]

So today I'll talk about how, even when things seem to happen magically, there's actually a ton of work going on behind the curtain. Often that work is to try to make things seem perfectly seamless or perfectly rational, or even inevitable. But in reality, physiologically speaking, we are all equal creatures in this same world, subject to limits and physics.

[Brian Johnson]

My nighttime erections are better than the average 18 year old.

[Andrea Pitzer]

So today I want to talk about who invents the world. And I'm going to give you a collection of very different examples.

[Brian Johnson]

Women, females. You too have nighttime boners. They're just harder to measure.

[Andrea Pitzer]

This might seem odd at first, but bear with me. Last week for New York Magazine, I wrote about the people deported from US soil to sicot detention in El Salvador, which I categorized as a concentration camp.

[Unknown Speaker]

Andrea Pitzer, the author of One Long A Global History of Concentration Camps, writes, quote, while writing a book on camp history, I defined concentration camps as mass detention of civilians without trial, usually on the basis of race, religion, national origins, citizenship or political party, rather than anything a given individual has done.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I discussed how Bukele, a man who's.

[Unknown Speaker]

Called himself the world's coolest dictator, has.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Positioned himself as a dictatorial savior of the country, the only one capable of stopping the staggering crime levels in the country and the one responsible for the significant drop in recent years in these levels. And I mentioned that the murder rate had already dropped by half by the time Bukele ran for office, although it has continued to come down since then. During his rule, he postures that this success related to crime is because of his tough policies and the arbitrary detention that he imposes, locking up suspects without due process, or often without really any real trial. While Bukele was celebrated at home, he was criticized abroad for his disregard for the rule of law. Human rights organizations accused his government of arbitrary detentions, forced disappearances and torture. But in addition to the murder rate already dropping significantly before he ever took office, it was widely reported that he had made deals with the gang members he denounced as terrorists in order to establish a truce.

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, it goes back to 2020. The investigative news website Alfaro published a blockbuster investigation about secret negotiations between Bukele and his lieutenants and ms.13 leaders. They wanted the gangs to reduce homicides to help Bukele's party in midterm elections.

[Andrea Pitzer]

He continued to detain people while making sweetheart deals with the actual criminals for preferential treatment and better conditions for gang leaders themselves, according to reporting from a number of outlets.

[Unknown Speaker]

Eventually some of those guys got a get out of jail free card. They went to Mexico, but they were arrested, extradited and sent to the U.S. once in the U.S. they were indicted as part of a major crackdown and some of those men were awaiting trial in New York.

[Andrea Pitzer]

This appears to be a key reason that Bukele made the deal with Trump overtaking detainees from the U.S. he wanted to get custody of at least one key MS.13 gang leader who would be standing trial in the US and could potentially make public details of the ways Bukele had caved to the gangs and collaborated with them behind the scenes.

[Unknown Speaker]

So the question is, did. Did President bukele want this MS.13 leader back in El Salvador so he could lock him up and prevent some of these details of the secret negotiations from ever becoming public, especially in a US Courtroom.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Reporters for El Faro and El Salvador have taken on the mythology head on of their President's war on crime, revealing him to be just another elected official turned Mafioso who instituted his own protection racket and deals. Recently the paper posted video of one gang member outlining deals made with Bukele. Bukele has apparently responded by ordering the arrest of El Faro reporters. Why would he do that? Because every dictator wants to make it appear that he has enough power that he transcends everyday life and is not only omnipotent but also in no way dependent on anyone else to achieve his goals, and in no way faces the day to day struggles that affect most people's lives. To reveal the dictator as contingent might remind people where the real power lies.

[Brian Johnson]

That's not going to happen.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Trump himself is following a similar playbook with the savaging of government here in the US he allowed people like Russell Volt and Elon Musk to launch their projects of dismantling huge parts of the federal government that help people or aid the country as a whole.

[Unknown Speaker]

Unprecedented cuts to federal programs in the US have hit everything from international aid to veterans benefits. But one area that Donald Trump and his appointees have been particularly keen to cut has been scientific research that has sparked fears of wide ranging harm to health care, climate protection, protection and food safety.

[Andrea Pitzer]

National science Foundation, Social Security, the irs, when it's actually investigating what caller? Fraud. You read about the tariff deals. Certainly by now. And Trump makes it clear that he controls it all in the end, I.

[Donald Trump]

Think my people haven't made it clear. We will sign some deals, but much bigger than that is we're going to put down the price.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It has to be whatever he decides it's going to be. I set the deal.

[Donald Trump]

I wish they'd keep, you know, stop asking. How many deals are you signing this week?

[Andrea Pitzer]

The current administration is pretending to want an empowered working class, but it's a deeply illusory kind of empowerment because one.

[Donald Trump]

Day we'll come and we'll give you a hundred deals.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The manufacturing they've promised was steady and lucrative in the past, largely due to the sheer numbers of union jobs that existed in the third quarter of the 20th century. But those have precipitously declined since then in ways that will largely be impossible to reverse. What's more, where those jobs might be restored, they're being argued for in terms of class immobility. Your child and your grandchild would do the same work is what politicians today are saying. But with no union, no livable minimum wage and a ravaged health care system, we have to ask, what kind of life is that going to be?

[Donald Trump]

You know, stop asking.

[Andrea Pitzer]

There's all the same attempts at distraction that we see elsewhere. Don't think too much about this. It's all going to be great. Now, there's acknowledgment that there's going to be short term pain, but no talk about how the government might alleviate that. And there is no acknowledgment whatsoever of the deeper pain coming later this year, at least from the administration.

[Donald Trump]

All they have to do is say, oh, we'll start sending our ships right now to pick up whatever we want or to bring whatever we want.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Instead, the American public is being told to buckle down and go. Without that, we don't need many dolls or pencils as we've had in the past or as we've gotten used to. Is that what you're telling your constituents?

[Unknown Speaker]

Well, I don't use pencils, but.

[Donald Trump]

Oh, but they do.

[Unknown Speaker]

Yes, true. No. You know, look, anybody who's ever chased one of these dolls, the American Girl dollar or the chubby ones that were big one, my dog Cabbage Patchkins.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The government is framing this almost in the language of wartime.

[Unknown Speaker]

So the idea that the Christmas trade is already starting to slow down the progress and there might be less around, I get it. I think American people will understand that because American people understand shared sacrifice. But what needs to be explained to them is that China has been eating our lunch.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It's that unthinking, reflexive support that Trump demands that people unhinge their self preservation instincts and replace it by doing simply whatever he says.

[Donald Trump]

No, I'm. No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying they don't need to have $30, they can have three, they don't need to have 250 pencils, they can have five.

[Andrea Pitzer]

To submit to his muddy vision for the country and believe in him again, he's assuming a kind of power that tries to obscure how the world actually works and have people give up their capacity for independent thought and even independent existence.

[Donald Trump]

People are going to have to pay to shop in the United States.

[Andrea Pitzer]

If you were born before listservs and Wikipedia and came of age before home computers, then you might remember a time when, if you wondered who the Duke of Bavaria was in the 8th century A.D. you had to own some pretty extensive encyclopedias or make a trip to the library. There was a time when sharing knowledge required more effort, and even then facts could remain elusive.

[Brian Johnson]

You've written about the world of electronic all at onceness, the global village in which everybody has gathered together by means of television or the new electronic media telegraph. And yet there seems to me to be a fearful danger of loss of individuality and identity.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Yet before the Internet, there was television, and before public broadcasting and the nightly news educated us, radio waves connected different places. Before that, telegrams magically conveyed messages around the world in less time than it might take you to eat a sandwich. So there were always inventions that seemed like magic ones that brought both harm and benefits. And what I want to say today is then in each case, that magic was dependent on humans.

[Brian Johnson]

I'm interested in that.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It happened because of humans and could contain no more than humans put into it. Partly I mean that as a statement of solidarity, as an acknowledgment of workers, but I also mean it literally. Those radio waves relied on transmitters to send and receive them. Somebody had to build those transmitters. The innovation of telegraphs required laying tens of thousands of miles of undersea cables. They required people to send and interpret messages in turn. The Internet, too, is dependent on hundreds of thousands of miles of cables and to a lesser degree, satellites in the sky. These networks are not self sustaining, but require repair and replacement through human intervention. The magic of technology still comes down to people to build the paths to send and receive. And above all, to understand this means.

[Brian Johnson]

Am I putting on an audience or am I just by myself? And so when you are putting on.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Public.

[Brian Johnson]

Then you have a totally different image of yourself than when you were all alone.

[Andrea Pitzer]

At this moment in history, we are faced with a massive corporate push toward artificial intelligence. And there's a human cost to people in developing countries and here at home as well.

[Brian Johnson]

Far from the world's glitzy tech hubs, these data workers train AI systems by sifting through massive amounts of harmful data.

[Andrea Pitzer]

It gave me nightmares. It tells you, explain to me how does the flesh of a human taste like art made with generative AI is always smaller than whatever data it was trained on. To me, it feels dead. The dumbest, most amateur drawing you did of your favorite emo singer or rapper or hair metal band, that beloved anime character you drew on your notebook in eighth grade. Those were derivative too, but they have more creativity and originality than the most polished generative AI. Even a human directly copying another human's artwork as closely as they could would bring more originality into the world. There is no actual magic in AI, no animating idea behind the algorithm. Technology is the tool, it is not the thing itself. A vaccine being mass produced absolutely saves lives. It can even eradicate a disease. But without the human invention of it, without the distribution and medical staff to administer the doses, without the healthcare workers recording the results and evaluating them, without the national policy in place that prioritizes human health, the tool becomes useless. We see that right now with the.

[Brian Johnson]

Measles, 24 people who have contracted measles.

[Donald Trump]

At this point, mainly we're told in.

[Brian Johnson]

The Mennonite community there are two people who have died. But watching it, so it's not unusual.

[Donald Trump]

We have measles outbreaks every year.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Quick question. When you say we have measles outbreaks every year, are you talking about America or like you right now, it sounds like you might take out that whole room and that would be terrible.

[Brian Johnson]

I want to say.

[Andrea Pitzer]

The tool itself is not sufficient. There are no hero rulers. There are no hero technologies to whom we must submit. There is no all powerful algorithm that we should let determine how to eat and how to live. To think these things exist is just wishing for the wizard of Oz to continue to pretend to be what we thought he was even after he's been revealed.

[Brian Johnson]

I've sat with President Trump with no cameras around, nobody listening, nobody watching. And I'm telling you, this is a man of deep faith, a man of deep conviction.

[Andrea Pitzer]

But for a certain group of people who want nothing more than to dominate or to profit from human advances. The real work of others to make what passes for magic in the modern world goes unacknowledged. The Prologarchs who are leading this charge have never had to clean up anyone's messes. They've never done care work in their lives. You know, like Elon Musk goes around like, impregnating women. Like, you know, the way he'd like throw some, some wildflower seeds in a random yard and just goes on his merry way. These people want to keep reality invisible to preserve their own power and position. Their erasure of humanity in the name of saving it is just another extension of the concentration camp tendency that I talked about in last week's episode. With technology that exists today, anybody can fake making something new.

[Brian Johnson]

What I'm proposing is the next major ideology of the world.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Anybody can pretend to have done things that they didn't.

[Brian Johnson]

Like my thymus, which is this gland behind my sternum, which runs my immune system, really important organ. We rejuvenated it by seven years.

[Andrea Pitzer]

I'm not going to say that AI has no uses, particularly in medical technology or in computing. But when it comes to creating an idea that hasn't existed before, generative AI can't do it. When it comes to expressing yourself, only you can live and invent your own life, obstacles and all. Yet there's a sizable percentage of the population that wants to be told what to do, that wants to be assigned a meaning. This group tends to embrace authoritarianism and in my opinion, seems overrepresented in the tech sector. I would count Brian Johnson, the guy who was trying to live forever, who wants to make a religion out of submitting to AI in ways that preserve our bodies.

[Brian Johnson]

Now, whether you're bullish on AI or bearish on AI doesn't really matter. Over some time duration, AI is improving at a speed that is unfathomable to our minds. It will be better at us and everything. So the question is, as a species, what do we do when we give.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Birth to AI with more money than he seems to know how to use and access to the best medical care and advice, he is unsatisfied. He wants to, quote, elevate the body to a position of authority. But paradoxically, this means doing what AI says to do.

[Brian Johnson]

Don't kill the planet and align AI with don't die. There is no other answer in existence on what we do as a species.

[Andrea Pitzer]

He said in that Technology Review article. It is really in my best interest to let it tell me what to eat. Tell me when to sleep and exercise because it would do a better job of making me happy, instead of my mind haphazardly deciding what it wants to eat based on how it feels. In the moment the body is elevated to a position of authority, AI is going to be omnipresent and built into our everyday activities. Just like it autocompletes our texts, it will be able to autocomplete our thoughts. So let me say that the idea that a computer could give you good health advice is not news. Actual doctors have been doing similar things for years. People know what to do to be healthier and live longer. By and large, eating fresh fruits and vegetables and exercising, this is not the roadblock to improved human health. The biggest barriers for the majority of humans are access to health care, access to healthy food, the ability to afford it, community environments that foster activity, leisure time to be active, workplaces and neighborhoods that don't poison us or don't damage our health in other ways. These are the things that most people need before they need an AI telling them what to do. And Johnson describes his approach as the body is God, but it is really one more suppression of the mind and the self. The AI is going to be in the position of authority, but it lacks all the consciousness, the possibility of understanding and reinvention of your actual self.

[Brian Johnson]

I have to decide, do I eat, you know, a brownie and do I have a glass of wine or maybe three? And I have to decide, do I stay up late and watch four more episodes or not? I hate those. Like, those decisions suck. And like most of the time, I make the wrong decision and then I feel awful. So actually I appreciate my freedom. I now no longer have to deal with those problems.

[Andrea Pitzer]

Without the federal workforce, there is no government. Without actual artists, there can be no new ideas in art. Without other social changes, the crime rate will not mystically fall. Because a president orders will definitely not fall if he takes his current approach of imprisoning more of the population per capita, as is the case in El Salvador, than any other nation on the planet. At least those are the stats from February 2025. Humans are the force that create changes in humanity. And understanding the role that workers who lay undersea cables, who evaluate grant applications, who come up with scientific innovations and apply for grants, those are at the heart of what happens in human society. What this means is that technology is an aid to human endeavor, sometimes a staggering one. But it can't replace human creativity or judgment that has to backstop all these processes. So embrace your own ideas and your own creations and your own life. Don't wait for people to tell you what to do or submit to anyone else's rules about living a good life. Because Bukele is wrong. Trump is wrong, and though he's not taking over countries or locking people up, as far as I know Brian Johnson is wrong too. Humans subordinating their will to AI is as foolish as submitting to a dictator. It's the erasure of the self and all its possibilities. Live inside your own life unless you're medically constrained from being around other people. Try to be in the world as much as you can and not live your entire life secondhand or through a screen, through others rules and expectations. Anyone or anything who tells you only they can save you doesn't have your best interests at heart. If there's something missing in your community, think of an idea and go try it. You don't have to reinvent the wheel. Getting advice and looking at pre existing programs elsewhere can be great, but you are capable of things no technology can do. The real work of changing society, for good or for ill, is always done by people. Don't give up your power. And that's it. Thanks for listening to Next Comes what?

[Brian Johnson]

Please share this with anyone who's looking.

[Andrea Pitzer]

For ways to help each other survive this mess. To support this podcast, Please [e-mail] and consider giving Next Comes what? A five star review where you get your podcasts.